IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2016-10-10

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DocScrutinizer05avahi = poettering. completely fucked up protocol, that picks for example IP addr at random, then does ARP "poisoning" etc to find if another device already has that addr and to advertise its own addr to any DNServer in local network, or simply does its own ARP on own behalf to answer ARP requests from other devices etc02:07
DocScrutinizer05a *nightmare* for any network admin02:08
DocScrutinizer05add one avahi device into a decently configured LAN and odds are you are gambling with the complete LAN going south, since NS collicions and whatnot02:09
DocScrutinizer05btw I have no avahi on my maemo02:10
DocScrutinizer05what we got is pretty okish dnsmasq02:10
bencohprotocol isn't poettering02:27
bencoh(even though it could be)02:27
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KotCzarnyoh, lol, i just got a notification about '#maemo-meeting' on 2016-10-09 at 14:00 UTC08:37
KotCzarnyon another note, what's the point of additional channel? if they wanted general audience with irc users, this channel could do?08:38
KotCzarnyor not. *shrugs*08:40
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OksanaSynfig may be interesting to port...09:59
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bencohto n900?!10:12
bencohoooh they released more morevna project "episodes"10:13
KotCzarnywell, before starting to port, open synfig, load sample project, then check memory usage in top etc10:14
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MaxdamantusPort as in optimising the UI for a small touchscreen/restricted keyboard?11:13
Maxdamantusor port as in getting it to compile?11:13
KotCzarnyboth11:13
MaxdamantusThe latter really shouldn't be a thing.11:14
MaxdamantusWhy hasn't someone just ported the maemo things to Debian?11:14
KotCzarnymight be if libs are too old11:14
KotCzarnywhich might require adding glue funcs11:15
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kerioMaxdamantus: maemo is stuck at debian etch12:41
kerioroughly12:41
MaxdamantusMainly because of glibc requiring 2.6.32?12:46
bencohno12:48
bencohthere's a quick&dirty workaround for that one, and it's probably the least significant issue anyway12:48
KotCzarnyhmm12:49
KotCzarnyso why dont we have 2.6.32 yet?12:49
Maxdamantus2.6.32 isn't the easy bit.12:49
Maxdamantusthe easy bit with glibc would be just patching glibc itself.12:50
bencohit's more about closed-source core applications/services that depends on old ABIs12:50
KotCzarnygo for it then send a patch to fmg ?12:50
bencohlike glib, gtk, telepathy, ...12:50
bencoh-s12:50
MaxdamantusPresumably those should be fixable gradually.12:51
Maxdamantusby just using LD_LIBRARY_PATH/LD_PRELOAD hacks around programs that require the old libraries.12:51
bencohyou cant afford that on a memory-starved embedded device12:52
KotCzarnytrue that12:52
KotCzarnyotoh newer libs are usually fatter12:52
MaxdamantusMm, maybe.12:52
KotCzarnyso upgrading might not have positive total effect12:52
bencohand it'd be a real deps hell12:52
* Maxdamantus is always running ntpd and mpd from a different root.12:53
KotCzarnyi wonder if maemo could be patched to some saner pkg system12:53
KotCzarnyie. repack everything in the way arch has12:53
KotCzarny(or slackware, he he)12:53
bencohthe "real" solution would be to keep working on FOSS replacements for core components, but ....12:53
Maxdamantus(though those probably involve libraries smaller than glib/gtk)12:53
* Maxdamantus also uses Opera, so the browserd crap is mostly wasted.12:54
bencohonce you can build from source every maemo core ports you're pretty good to go12:54
bencohbut I don't see that happen anytime soon12:54
MaxdamantusDunno. I can't really see single duplicate gtk/glibc being a major issue.12:55
KotCzarnymaxd: sms and other components use browserd to render12:55
MaxdamantusKotCzarny: yes, that was my point.12:55
MaxdamantusI basically have two browser engines in memory.12:55
KotCzarnymaxd: gtk and friends is ~10-15MB12:55
bencohand browserd is ~40M, but...12:56
KotCzarnyso you will have to double that regarding memory usage12:56
bencohanyway I wouldn't want to deal with a double glib/gtk setup12:56
KotCzarnyimo on memory starved system having anything but essentials is a waste12:57
KotCzarnyie. is browserd required while on desktop?12:57
Maxdamantus"on desktop"?12:58
MaxdamantusYou mean without SMS windows open? I think so.12:58
KotCzarnyif i open sms app, let it load, but when im outside any of those apps it shouldnt be in mem12:58
Maxdamantusthough I suspect not much of it will be in memory at that point.12:58
bencohbrowserd actually eats quite a lot even when doing nothing12:58
MaxdamantusWell, if you've already loaded it it will be in memory.12:58
bencoh(mem-wise)12:59
KotCzarnymaxd, make it a stub that will unload when nothing is using it?12:59
MaxdamantusIt's not very good to constantly move things in and out.12:59
bencohtrue12:59
KotCzarnyor at least make some browserd-lite12:59
Maxdamantusfar better to just have a tiny libx11-based program that can always be in memory.12:59
MaxdamantusKotCzarny: "unload when nothing is using it" means "loads when something uses it"13:00
MaxdamantusLinux will already discard it from memory when newer things try to use it.13:00
KotCzarnythat means swap grind13:00
MaxdamantusThe browserd binaries/libraries are mmapped.13:01
Maxdamantusswap would obviously be relevant for the anonymous pages.13:01
KotCzarnyhum13:01
KotCzarny /usr/bin/osso-addressbook this thing shouldnt be constantly in memory13:02
KotCzarny and this /usr/bin/image-viewer13:03
KotCzarnythat would free 15MB alone13:03
MaxdamantusIt's usually not all going to be in memory.13:03
MaxdamantusThey're mmapped files.13:03
KotCzarnyhow to check what is in mem then?13:03
MaxdamantusAs processes try to access the content, they'll cause page faults which can copy things from the filesystem into memory.13:03
MaxdamantusThen as other things try to use memory Linux will discard those pages since it knows it can just read them again from the filesystem when required.13:04
KotCzarnyi've killed image-viewer temporarily13:05
KotCzarny15MB of mem got freed13:05
KotCzarnyi mean 913:05
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KotCzarny4MB of swap and 5MB of ram13:05
MaxdamantusIf you were judging by "free memory" in `free`, that would probably be anonymous maps, not /usr/bin/image-viewer13:05
MaxdamantusKilling a process won't normally immediately remove files from memory.13:06
KotCzarnymaxd, i just wanted to see if it makes a difference13:06
KotCzarnybastard got restarted anyway13:06
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MaxdamantusThat happens lazily: as processes try to access pages that aren't currently in memory, Linux will discard pages that haven't been accessed recently (possibly moving them to swap in the case of anonymous maps).13:06
KotCzarnymaxd, then i repeat my question, how to check what is currently occupying real mem?13:07
MaxdamantusThere are some obscure interfaces in /proc13:07
Maxdamantusmaybe `vmallocinfo`13:08
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MaxdamantusHm, no, not that.13:09
KotCzarnysmaps?13:09
KotCzarnyie /proc/<pid>/smaps13:10
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KotCzarnyits heap is ~2.5MB13:11
MaxdamantusI think pagemap13:11
KotCzarnywhich means allocated buffers13:11
Maxdamantus    * Bit  62    page swapped13:11
Maxdamantus    * Bit  63    page present13:11
Maxdamantusah, and kpagecount was the global thing I was thinking of.13:12
KotCzarnyi think private_dirty are things that are counted into real mem usage13:15
bencohKotCzarny: there is a .desktop property to autostart process in maemo, btw13:15
KotCzarny(and shared_dirty)13:15
Maxdamantus"real mem usage"?13:15
bencohsomething-prestart13:15
Maxdamantusreal mem usage should normally be 100%13:15
Maxdamantusunless you've just booted the system.13:15
bencoh(x-maemo-prestart or something like that)13:15
Maxdamantusunused RAM is basically a waste.13:15
MaxdamantusSee also: http://www.linuxatemyram.com/13:16
KotCzarnymaxd: im talking about memory that would have to be swapped out if new app requires more mem etc13:17
MaxdamantusSo resident anonymous maps?13:17
KotCzarnyapparently shared_dirty+private_dirty13:18
KotCzarnybencoh: thx, i've just disabled it (for testing)13:18
KotCzarnyi guess i will go kamikaze and disable prestarting of browserd too13:20
KotCzarnyand messaging ui13:20
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MaxdamantusSo then you just have to wait for it to load from the filesystem when someone sends you the first SMS rather than from swap (assuming other processes have pushed it out of memory).13:21
KotCzarnyhrm, it doesnt exit after clicking 'x'13:21
KotCzarnymaxd: just tried it, and startup time isnt much worse13:22
KotCzarny~1s when it loads msg db13:22
Maxdamantusand yeah, it doesn't use a separate browserd process for each window.13:22
KotCzarnywell, im talking about /usr/bin/rtcom-messaging-ui13:22
KotCzarnypity. prestarted trick would only help initial device boot time13:23
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KotCzarnyapps dont quit on clicking 'x'13:24
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MaxdamantusTypical applications should. rtcom-messaging-ui probably considers itself special.13:24
Maxdamantuslike IE in some versions of Windows.13:25
KotCzarnyis it opensourced?13:25
MaxdamantusDunno.13:25
KotCzarny~closed13:25
infobotmethinks closed is http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages, or http://elinux.org/N90013:25
MaxdamantusSome of it is made up of accessible HTML/JavaScript/CSS, at least.13:25
* Maxdamantus changed the way messaged are laid out by modifying that.13:26
KotCzarnyalmost none of rtcom- packages are opensourced13:27
KotCzarnyhttps://wiki.maemo.org/images/9/94/Top_level_architecture.png13:28
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KotCzarnyoh, it unloaded, yay13:45
KotCzarny(after some inactivity)13:45
KotCzarnyso, right now i have ~41M free and 84M cached according to top13:45
KotCzarnywithout any adverse effects (yet)13:46
MaxdamantusIt was probably due to activity, not inactivity.13:46
Maxdamantusif you're talking about file pages being discarded from memory.13:46
KotCzarnymaxd, ive launched 'conversations' and closed it by 'x', then went doing some work, now i dont see it in the process list13:47
KotCzarnythat's what i mean by 'unloaded'13:47
KotCzarnylets go leroy jenkins and unload call ui too13:47
MaxdamantusRight, so its RSS went down.13:47
KotCzarnythough this might make me miss calls and i dont have second phone to check atm13:48
Maxdamantusbecause other thing caused page faults trying to use memory, so those browserd pages became the least recently used at some point.13:49
KotCzarnymaxd, nope, phone was idle and there is ~40M free atm13:49
Maxdamantusit's probably never truly idle.13:49
KotCzarnyidle as in screen blanked13:50
Maxdamantusso it's still on.13:50
KotCzarnyyup13:50
Maxdamantusthings are still running, accessing memory.13:50
KotCzarnyyup13:50
KotCzarnyi hunt things that arent used by system/other things when user does nothign13:50
KotCzarny*nothing13:51
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bencohMaxdamantus: he just means that process eventually stopped running14:34
MaxdamantusI don't think that's what he means.14:35
Maxdamantusafaik browserd/rtcom-messaging-ui never just stops.14:35
KotCzarny[root@Main-N900:/usr/share/applications/hildon]# ps axww|grep messaging14:35
KotCzarny 2563 root      1596 S    grep messaging14:35
KotCzarny[root@Main-N900:/usr/share/applications/hildon]#14:35
MaxdamantusHm. Weird.14:36
KotCzarnyif you set it not to preload always it will exit eventually14:36
KotCzarnywhich is actually nice if you dont use sms much14:38
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Siceloi have a silly bluetooth problem - N900 does not generate  a pin to pair for one particualr device (which it was able to pair fine before). it can still generate pin & pair others. any ideas how to hunt this one down?15:07
KotCzarnymaybe it's paired/authorized?15:07
Siceloi deleted all pairings on N90015:08
KotCzarny<obligatory joke> reflash? </obligatory joke>15:08
Sicelohaha15:08
KotCzarnyreset/take out batteries out of the bt device?15:09
KotCzarnythough it might have things written to some eeprom15:09
Sicelodid that. no help :(15:09
KotCzarnyclear /var/lib/bluetooth ?15:10
KotCzarny(maybe backup it first)15:11
Sicelodidn't try that one .. will try shortly15:12
Sicelowhat i did was remove all entried in gconf15:12
Siceloand wanted to try reinstalling all bt* stuff15:16
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Siceloor do we have alternative way to pair, e.g. via cmdline?15:28
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Siceloyay! did it with simple-agent :)16:51
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_maniac_heh. I tried to update to CSSU-testing and phone became unresponsive. nokia logo -> blank screen and nothing. not even five dots.17:08
_maniac_any way to find out what's broken?17:08
KotCzarnylow battery?17:09
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_maniac_no, battery was about 80% full when I did the update.17:32
KotCzarnywhat happens when you try to turn it on?17:33
_maniac_nokia logo and then black screen.17:34
_maniac_it is in PC-Suite mode when I plug it in, will try ssh'ing now.17:34
KotCzarnymaybe bad kernel (ie. stock one)17:34
KotCzarnywere you updating from stock or from cssu?17:34
_maniac_well, no replies from 192.168.2.1517:35
_maniac_from cssu.17:35
_maniac_I had cssu stable and power-kernel17:35
KotCzarnygot any weird packages? (ie. multiboot)17:35
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_maniac_bootmenu17:37
KotCzarny~bootmenu17:37
KotCzarny~ping17:37
infobot~pong17:37
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KotCzarnydoes it work still?17:38
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KotCzarnyi would try flashing kernel alone (from cssu-testing)17:38
_maniac_mhm, will try17:40
_maniac_can't find kernel package in cssu-testing repo17:52
bencohI'd rather try kernel-power, but ...17:54
bencohaaah, right17:54
bencohwhich kernel did you have?17:54
bencohand the problem with reflashing kernel only is that you might end up with missing compatible modules17:54
KotCzarnyhe had powerkernel before update17:55
KotCzarnybut also had bootmenu, which could be anything17:55
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Siceloif he had bootmenu, then the vanilla kernel should boot, and he can then figure out which PK he had18:20
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_maniac_welp, my bootmenu don't have any kernel options, just 'internal nand (maemo 5)' and bootmenu utilities.18:42
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Sicelothat's vanilla kernel then ..19:16
_maniac_oO19:19
_maniac_I'm pretty sure I had power-something in uname -a before19:19
Siceloyou may have .. but what i am saying is the vanilla kernel most likely still had the correct modules. that is what the default bootmenu setting uses. how you were booting your pk i don't know (assuming you didn't create any *.item files for it). just load the vanilla kernel without flashing and see if that gets you in. it should19:22
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KotCzarnyhttp://i.imgur.com/eWqKRIK.png19:56
KotCzarnywinamp skin mode done19:56
KotCzarnynow onto fixing few bugs and packaging19:57
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_maniac_"if he had bootmenu, then the vanilla kernel should boot" - nope, my bootmenu boots to 2.6.28.10-power5320:37
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_maniac_I mounted rootfs but can't find anything in /boot there. according to /var/lib/dpkg/info/kernel{,-power}.list kernel images should be there.20:39
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Sicelo009Nmine are in MyDocs/bootmenu.img.d/20:45
_maniac_I don't have such directory20:47
_maniac_but I extracted them from downloaded deb and going to try flashing now.20:47
Sicelo009Nthen how are you using bootmenu? or for what? :-)20:47
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_maniac_I installed boot menu to be able to do full fs backup in case of fuck ups like this.20:49
_maniac_but I didn't do one.20:49
KotCzarnywell, you can always run rescueos for that20:49
KotCzarnyno need to flash anything to device20:49
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KotCzarnyhttp://i.imgur.com/zI6XzIE.png21:18
KotCzarny:)21:18
_maniac_almost like the original!21:20
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_maniac_ah, I give up and going full reflash.22:45
KotCzarny:)22:45
KotCzarnynew start, new possibilities22:46
KotCzarnygo for css-thumb22:46
KotCzarnycssu-thumb22:46
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_maniac_well, latest reflash  (which I was running before) was broken in various small ways22:48
_maniac_aptitude segfaulting, extra decoders package doing NOTHING, missing url input in UML-browser22:48
KotCzarnysounds like you were having fun with it22:49
_maniac_!!FUN!!, yes.22:50
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