IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2015-12-27

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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: core repos gone south00:00
DocScrutinizer05nice URL http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=Maemo00:01
jonwilyeah the nokia repos have been gone for a while (hence the fact that I am now using the maemo.muarf.org mirror :)00:02
jonwilI am also using a different repo mirror (probably ovi) from maemo-repos.com00:02
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jonwilso what exactly is the discussion then? Something new about how to solve the core repo issue?00:05
sixwheeledbeastjonwil: HAM and /home/user/.hildon-application-manager/available-notifications file00:08
sixwheeledbeaststarts here? http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2015-12-26.log.html#t2015-12-26T00:20:5000:10
DocScrutinizer05..and my rant about muarf being a nice but alas unapproved mirror00:10
jonwilok, so HAM will download a file from a nokia server. Big deal, this doesn't help us (we dont own that server)00:11
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DocScrutinizer05but when council gives excommunication and bashing to those who try to deal with approving and supporting obviously not-so-legal mirrors of copyrighted stuff, then we'll have to live with the situation that mirrors are not approved these days, and never again will be00:12
DocScrutinizer05council and hildon foundation (or whatever is the name now) I have to say00:14
jonwilSeems like the people who supposedly run this community aren't (or weren't if it was different people at the time) running for the benefit of Maemo as a whole00:15
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DocScrutinizer05this was the time of "we negotiate with Nokia. We must not tell any details. We don't want to talk with you as Nokia might not like this"00:21
DocScrutinizer05one guy even claiming he might get sued for crimes *I* do 3 years into the future when he gives me some money today for something completely unrelated00:22
OksanaaHmm, right now I am wondering if it is possible to negotiate with Nokia-Microsoft about DNS records...00:23
DocScrutinizer05forget it00:24
DocScrutinizer05we tried a dozen times00:24
DocScrutinizer05Nokia won't pass control over *.nokia.com domains to you, no matter what00:24
DocScrutinizer05when you're lucky, you eventually might own the *.maemo.org domains00:25
DocScrutinizer05ooh, you already own the maemo.org - congrats, finally00:26
DocScrutinizer05maybe you could check if HAM et al can work with it, and then get Nokia to change harmattan.nokia.com or whatever to a CNAME00:29
DocScrutinizer05or maemo.downloads.nokia.com or whatever it been00:33
DocScrutinizer05tabletteer.nokia.com00:33
DocScrutinizer05warfare could request such changes and with some luck Nokia will implement them via their DNS management after weeks or months00:34
bencohI highly doubt you'd ever get any *.nokia.com domain :)00:51
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bencoh"maemo.org" is a different story - pretty much nobody (outside of our small tech communities) knows what it is or how it's related to nokia00:52
DocScrutinizer05no way we ever get *.nokia.com00:52
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: freemangordon: please explain http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2015-12-26.log.html#t2015-12-26T20:29:19 - I don't grok it00:53
bencohas for "unapproved mirrors", I hope nobody really gives that any attention nowadays00:53
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DocScrutinizer05bencoh: actually nobody but peeps in hildon foundation ever did00:54
bencohDocScrutinizer05: I gathered that :)00:54
PaliDocScrutinizer05: HAM checks http page configured in system if it is not changed. and if it is changed it show notify message in status bar "new update" with text and link from that page00:54
DocScrutinizer05Nokia is obliged by contracts not to publish those closed blob bits (like e.g. flash plugin, PVR lib etc), but they even encouraged users at time to create mirrors00:55
bencohjonwil: btw, ovi is on maemo.muarf.org as well, but password-protected (with the password used for nokia repos)00:55
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bencohDocScrutinizer05: :-)00:55
Paliand we could use it to inform users that CSSU exists00:55
DocScrutinizer05Pali: which URL this page is on?00:55
bencohthe tableteer one ?00:56
Palihttp://tableteer.nokia.com/application-notices/notice-RX-51-fremantle00:56
DocScrutinizer05Pali: alas that doesn't help since that's a Nokia URL00:56
DocScrutinizer05we *might* talk Nokia into changing content of that page00:57
Palilong time ago Quim Gill wrote us that Nokia is happy with redistributing closed Nokia (C) bits of Maemo sw00:57
DocScrutinizer05alas to me it seems http://tableteer.nokia.com is dead00:58
DocScrutinizer05(quim) ack00:58
Palisee dig, it resolve to 217.77.202.4000:58
DocScrutinizer05hmm, and?00:58
DocScrutinizer05still no response00:58
Paliis not it old ip range of maemo servers?00:59
bencohSATAMA-NET00:59
bencohmnt-by:         ELISA-MNT00:59
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2015/12/26/plasma-desktopCS3616.png00:59
PaliDocScrutinizer05: I know, but nokia still has A record in DNS01:00
bencohPali: do you mean this page used to be hosted on maemo infra?01:00
Paliyes01:00
bencohhmm01:00
DocScrutinizer05umm, you could actually try convincing Nokia to point that URL to recent server IP01:00
bencohinteresting01:00
bencohyeah01:00
bencohs/url/dns/01:00
Palianyway downloads.maemo.nokia.com does not have A record anymore01:00
DocScrutinizer05yep, dns01:00
DocScrutinizer05we could ask nokia to create a new A record for that too01:01
Palior we can try to contact SATAMA-NET/ELISA-MNT :D01:01
DocScrutinizer05but that won't help since *we* are not allowed to hos a repo mirror01:02
bencohor mnt-by:         XENETIC01:02
bencohDocScrutinizer05: maemo could do some redirection :°01:02
DocScrutinizer05cyrcle closed01:02
PaliDocScrutinizer05: we are not allowd to host our version of notice-RX-51-fremantle file??01:02
DocScrutinizer05[2015-12-26 Sat 22:27:42] <DocScrutinizer05> the tricky part is: such patch to etc/hosts would need to point to a IP that holds the repos, which is... questionable01:02
bencoh:)01:03
Palinotice-RX-51-fremantle is announcement for *all* n900 devices with internet connection to show something01:03
DocScrutinizer05Pali: we are allowed to do that. We are not allowed to host the repos and stuff usually found under downloads.maemo.nokia.com01:03
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DocScrutinizer05anyway it seems to me the box behind http://tableteer.nokia.com is dead. A very usual thing with nokia boxes that are not maintained anymore but still akamai receives payment for the iron01:07
DocScrutinizer05I've seen such zombie boxes linger on for years at nokia01:07
bencohhmm I dont think akamai is still hosting (or receiving anything) for d.m.n.c01:08
DocScrutinizer05of course not since that's a dead domain01:08
bencohno I mean, even when hardcoding the akamai ip in /etc/hosts, they dont host anything there anymore01:08
DocScrutinizer05though, you never know. I've even see zombie boxes under IPs where the DNS record vanished long ago01:09
bencohso nokia notified akamai01:09
DocScrutinizer05aah ok01:09
DocScrutinizer05http://tableteer.nokia.com otoh obviously still exists01:09
bencoh(I tried that when the maemo.n.c NS vanished)01:09
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DocScrutinizer05could run nmap against that box, to see if it's showing any sign of life still01:10
Palido you have A records of downloads.maemo.nokia.com?01:10
PaliA records when worked?01:10
DocScrutinizer05me not01:11
bencohI used to01:14
keriomeh01:15
keriomaemo is like super dead anyway :c01:15
jonwilSo Nokia unofficially has no problem with people hosting repo mirror but officially they cant endorse HiFo/maemo.org/etc hosting anything...01:18
xeskerio: if it's dead, why are loosing your time here? :)01:18
kerionecrophilia01:19
jonwilI for one don't consider Maemo dead...01:19
keriothe rotting, maggot-infested carcass of maemo 5 is still better than android01:19
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: (endorse) exactly01:19
Paliok, so we can power-up unofficial mirror for downloads.maemo.nokia.com?01:21
Paliwithout problems?01:21
xeskerio: a walking dead is always better than a spy-worm's slave01:22
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kerioindeed01:22
jonwilUltimately I suspect its all academic since I seriously doubt MS/Nokia would ever point any *.nokia.com domain to any machine they don't control.01:25
DocScrutinizer05Pali: yes, aiui01:26
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: ack01:26
Palido you have any contact to nokia?01:26
DocScrutinizer05nope, afaik nobody has anymore01:27
DocScrutinizer05there is no more nokia, as far as maemo is concerned01:27
DocScrutinizer05if anybody still has any contacts then that's HiFo01:28
DocScrutinizer05but I seem to remember their last contact waved a farewell long ago01:29
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Palihttp://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/mobile/support/product/n900/softwareupdate/01:33
jonwilI dont see any reason why another mirror of downloads.maemo.nokia.com would somehow be any more useful than of maemo.muarf.org or maemo-repos.com01:34
DocScrutinizer05Pali: ROFL01:34
jonwilI suspect that page is simply something from an old Nokia webpage grabbed up and reformatted onto a MS websie01:35
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: it only would be more useful if it was as smartly crafted into a sekrit organizational network as skeiron was01:35
Palihttp://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/mobile/support/product/n900/faq/?action=singleTopic&topic=FA121619&category=warrantyandrepair01:35
Pali:D:D01:35
keriowat01:36
Palidists/mistral01:36
PaliCould not resolve 'repositor.maemo.org'.01:36
Pali:D01:36
DocScrutinizer05"was this helpful?" [X]NO01:37
jonwilwhat made skeiron better than other mirrors?01:38
bencohthey existed at that time :)01:38
bencoherr, they did not existed at that time01:39
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: it was embedded into a sekrit organizational framework that ensured that the content on skeiron was authentic and untampered01:41
DocScrutinizer05it also was maximum comprehensive01:41
DocScrutinizer05with almost 2TB of data01:42
DocScrutinizer05and though council and HiFo never knew, they actually had some indirect control over it01:42
DocScrutinizer05they used that indirect control to nuke it01:43
DocScrutinizer05now we got mirrors we know zilch about01:44
Paliwhat happened with skeiron mirror?01:46
jonwilAFAIK the mirrors we have are still signed (just with an expired key) so we should be able to verify that the signature is intact and the files on those mirrors are genuine01:46
DocScrutinizer05it got discontinued when peeps at HiFo started bitching and acting destructive01:46
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DocScrutinizer05to make things more bizarre: same peeps who formerly helped in inventing and supporting the whole thing01:48
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: sure, that's true for the Nokia repos01:51
DocScrutinizer05however that doesn't prevent any fraudulent stuff getting done to them tomorrow01:52
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jonwilAre there any other repos other than the Nokia repos (downloads.maemo.nokia.com) and the repos that exist on *.maemo.org?01:52
DocScrutinizer05also note that we as well have no control whatsoever over the domain01:52
DocScrutinizer05so if muarf or whatever mirror vanishes tomorrow, we're at square zero again01:53
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DocScrutinizer05well, we can't do much about it. So it's futile to discuss it01:54
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if a CNAME for the downloads.maemo.nokia.com domain would work with ham/apt01:59
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DocScrutinizer05or a HTTP forward (301 Moved Permanently)02:01
DocScrutinizer05dos1: could we create a subdomain downloads.maemo.neo900.org? and for now point it to muarf?02:03
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DocScrutinizer05by either an A, CNAME, or even a webpage with a 301 - whatever works best for HAM02:04
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i think our apt doesn't follow redirects, idk about HAM though02:06
DocScrutinizer05hmm, HAM uses apt02:06
kerioyeah but it's its own implementation, or something02:06
DocScrutinizer05k02:06
dos1DocScrutinizer05: we could, but for A/CNAME it most likely needs webserver config support on muarf side02:07
dos1(vhost)02:07
DocScrutinizer05:nod:02:07
kerioit's all in apt-worker02:07
DocScrutinizer05that's what I meant by "we have no control over muarf"02:07
DocScrutinizer05dos1: could we test if muarf has a catch-all (*) vhost?02:08
dos1I have downloads.maemo.nokia.com pointed via /etc/hosts to my local PC configured to accept this vhost02:08
dos1sure, just give me a link to muarf02:08
DocScrutinizer05~repo02:08
infobotrepos is probably "deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ ;; deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/mr0/ ./", or see http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories02:08
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dos1nope, default vhosts points to something that returns HTTP/1.1 401 Authorization Required02:11
dos1s/vhosts/vhost/02:11
infobotdos1 meant: nope, default vhost points to something that returns HTTP/1.1 401 Authorization Required02:11
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DocScrutinizer05grr02:11
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DocScrutinizer05we need a mirror that allows council to point to it via a DNS record the community has under direct control02:12
DocScrutinizer05so if anybody decides to take down the mirror, the DNS could get updated to point to another one02:13
DocScrutinizer05or would the domain owner be responsible for content under a IP he doesn't own?02:14
dos1I think that might depend on jurisdiction02:15
DocScrutinizer05when neo900 points A to muarf, if somebody approaches me I only can take down the DNS record since I got no clue where and who is muarf02:15
DocScrutinizer05I'd prefer a CNAME or 301 though02:15
DocScrutinizer05CNAME should be resolver level, 301 alas is HTTP level02:16
dos1A and CNAME are here virtually the same cases, the only thing that changes is that we wouldn't have to update our domain is muarf A record changes02:17
DocScrutinizer05:nod:02:17
DocScrutinizer05CNAME however documents that we're not necessarily owner of the domain02:18
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DocScrutinizer05and since we're not related to council, we may point to a domain we shouldn't point to if we were council or HiFo02:19
dos1well, instead of pointing to IP, you point to another domain - and you don't own that domain just the same way you don't own that IP02:19
DocScrutinizer05yes, *I* know that ;-)02:20
dos1not trying to explain technicalities to you :D I just don't see anything "documented" there regading the ownership02:20
DocScrutinizer05the amount of ownership info differs between IP and domain though02:20
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DocScrutinizer05CNAME muarf.org; whois muarf.org02:21
dos1ah, "look, whois says it's not mine" :)02:21
DocScrutinizer05A <IP-of-muarf.org>;  ??? IP02:21
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly02:22
DocScrutinizer05warfare: would you consider using a "downloads.maemo.maemo.org CNAME muarf.org" a thing we might dare to do?02:23
DocScrutinizer05prolly using a 'foreign domain' like downloads.maemo.neo900.org is less conflict potential for the maemo 'authorities'02:26
DocScrutinizer05actually it's jussi who 'owns' maemo.org02:29
DocScrutinizer05according to whois02:30
DocScrutinizer05of course HiFo/whovernow-eV is the legal owner02:30
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M-bobsummerwillHello everyone!   I'm a bit late to the party, I know but ...02:56
M-bobsummerwillhttps://twitter.com/doublethink_co/status/680056050880389120?s=0902:56
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DocScrutinizer05humm, what is ethereum?03:16
DocScrutinizer05the N+1'th container implementation?03:18
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Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: a group of guys learning consensus systems; (possibly legally) funded by idiots who think it will become the next Bitcoin03:51
DocScrutinizer05duh, realy?03:51
DocScrutinizer05https://www.ethereum.org/ didn't give that away03:52
DocScrutinizer05oh yeah, keywords "contracts" and "blockchain"03:53
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Luke-Jrthere may be ethical problems with their public-facing promotional materials (but I don't have time to go through them and state for certain)03:56
DocScrutinizer05indeed that website doesn't tell too much about what this stuff _really_ is and does. I mean... "Ethereum is how the Internet was supposed to work." really now?03:58
Luke-Jrthey take too much in the footsteps of many scam "altcoins" before them03:58
Luke-Jrbasically trying to keep the scamcoin 'profits' but do it legit04:00
DocScrutinizer05>>Ether is the internal 'fuel' of Ethereum. Programs running on Ethereum need to pay the network for the resources they consume.<<04:00
DocScrutinizer05all sounds *very* cloudy and weird04:00
Luke-Jrit's basically stupid, but hopefully they'll learn something in the process of doing it04:02
DocScrutinizer05why the heck would I "run a program on Ethereum"?04:02
Luke-Jr(no reasons come to mind)04:02
DocScrutinizer05if this is the future then please I want to die before it becomes prevalent04:04
Luke-Jrit isn't. :P04:04
Luke-JrBitcoin has scaling problems already; with Ethereum's nonsense, those become 100000000 times worse04:05
Luke-Jrand Bitcoin's solutions no longer really work04:05
Luke-Jressentially every program run "on Ethereum" really means every single computer in the Ethereum network is independently and redundantly executing it04:06
DocScrutinizer05ouch04:06
Luke-Jrthe same is more or less true of Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is specifically a single *simple* purpose (currency/finance), and there is scalability work to cut-through overlapping transfers04:07
DocScrutinizer05doubleplusOUCH04:07
Luke-Jr(that is, if A pays B, B pays C, and C pays A, only the differences get settled on the public/shared ledger)04:07
Luke-Jr(more complex routing also possible of course)04:08
DocScrutinizer05such a thing obviously can't scale04:08
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Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: the routing network is implemented without the shared execution04:10
DocScrutinizer05M-bobsummerwill: >>So I have *cracked* and bought a N900 on eBay to see for myself what is so special about it.<< welcome on board :-) and you'll notice the most special thing about N900 is that there's aömost nothing special with it. It's smply a very small linux computer, with a phone built in04:11
DocScrutinizer05a slightly unusual desktop manager called hildon - though you *could* even run KDE or whatever you like, on it04:13
DocScrutinizer05and that's the very unusual thing for a phone: it's a very usual linux PC04:14
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DocScrutinizer05M-bobsummerwill: or simply watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66RBfrBgL2E04:21
DocScrutinizer05M-bobsummerwill: first thing you want to do on N900: ~flashing anew, then open browser and navigate to http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/et_al/HAM-catalogs/muarf.install04:37
DocScrutinizer05~flashing04:37
infobotmaemo-flashing is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh04:37
DocScrutinizer05then:04:38
DocScrutinizer05~cssu04:38
infobothmm... cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)04:38
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jonwilhi08:34
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coderusplz save me09:50
coderusSorry, it seems that you are using an IP address or a proxy that is listed in the forum anti spam blacklist.09:50
coderusFeel free to contact our staff on irc freenode #maemo channel.09:50
coderus188.165.30.15109:51
KotCzarny~unbanip09:51
infoboti guess unbanip is please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request, or see ~techstaff09:51
coderusokay emailed, thx!09:53
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KotCzarnypali, why do you want to rely on .n.c/m$ anyway?10:24
KotCzarnyimo there should be cssu release as a flashable firmware10:25
KotCzarnycall it 1.4-cssu1 or something10:25
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KotCzarnyor just 1.410:25
PaliKotCzarny: we cannot redistribute nokia bins via r.m.o10:25
Palionly unofficial10:25
KotCzarnycan't you do it unofficially?10:26
Palihow?10:26
PaliI want to have one "official" location10:26
Palifor all maemo stuff10:26
Paliand it is r.m.o domain10:26
KotCzarnymake the image, put on the internet, google will direct people easily10:26
Paliit is "trusted" by all n900 users10:26
KotCzarnyas most just want 'latest'10:26
vahehi all :)10:26
PaliKotCzarny: ask merlin if he can host such firmware on site where is cssu-devel10:27
Paliand once we will have location where to host, I could prepare "firmware" file10:28
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KotCzarnyhmm, cssu-thumb might be nice candidate because 'its incompatible with regular stuff'10:28
Paliin cssu-devel is prepared new kernel10:29
KotCzarnyand 'its untested/unstable'10:29
Paliwith thumb support10:29
KotCzarnypali, i know, but if anyone asks why ;)10:29
Paliand after testing I would suggest to mark it as stable10:29
KotCzarnyvahe: hi you10:29
Palibecause kernel contains also fixes10:30
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* jonwil wonders what the minimum set of files required to get a N900 to boot is and how many of those remain closed source'11:15
jonwilprobably more than I thought (e.g. ICD is necessary)11:15
KotCzarnyboot is one thing, boot maemo is another11:16
kerioto boot what?11:16
kerioyea11:16
KotCzarnyfor minimal set see rescueos11:16
kerioNOLO is closed i think11:16
jonwilyeah it is closed unfortunately :(11:16
kerioso11:17
keriothat's it really11:17
kerioand we can't run uboot directly because nolo does some hardware initialization that we're not aware of11:18
jonwilwell if we can clone MCE and camera-ui and the various other packages, I am sure we could figure out the important bits of what nolo is doing. If I knew how to get nolo into IDA etc I would take a look myself.11:21
KotCzarnynolo is arm binary without any particular format, executed directly by cpu i think11:22
keriowell11:23
jonwilyeah but you need to know where in memory it sits and what's code and what's data and etc which isn't easy11:23
kerioROMBL probably does stuff11:23
KotCzarnyif you can get uboot into ida, then nolo is probably few first kbytes from the nand11:23
KotCzarnyand i guess you will need to know asm well enough11:24
jonwilHexRays will help a bit with some of the work if you can get everything lined up properly11:25
KotCzarnyi wonder if qemu would be able to boot from exact nand dump11:27
jonwilprobably not since you dont have rombl11:27
jonwiland whatever rombl does11:27
KotCzarnyhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking/serial_dump11:28
KotCzarnyÜber-cool backlight fade-in took 9 ms11:29
KotCzarnyhehe11:29
PaliKotCzarny: qemu implement only GP device (general purpose), not HS (high secure)11:30
Paliso qemu ROM cannot parse special header in x-loader where are certificates and RSA keys11:30
KotCzarnypali, did someone actually tried installing generic boot loader?11:30
PaliKotCzarny: nokia got us x-loader & nolo for GP devices11:31
Paliand this is used in qemu!11:31
kerioPali: pls implement nolo in uboot :311:31
Palikerio: do it yourself :-)11:31
kerionu :c11:32
KotCzarnyjonwil: also here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Firmware_hacking11:36
bencohDocScrutinizer05: if you actually do it, please use a CNAME to maemo.muarf.org or whatever *.maemo.muarf.org subdomain, not just "muarf.org" :)11:39
keriothe muarf.org home page lists a SHA1 sshfp for a DSS key11:40
keriodo two wrongs make a right?11:41
kerioor is it just a double wrong11:41
bencohhmmm?11:41
bencohah you mean sha1 is broken and dss should no longer be used? :D11:41
kerioit's also got a CAcert https certificate :\11:41
KotCzarnymuarf.org uses an invalid security certificate.11:41
KotCzarnyThe certificate is not trusted because it was signed using a signature algorithm that was disabled because that algorithm is not secure.11:41
bencohI haven't updated it for a long time11:41
keriooh god, a sha1 cert11:41
keriobencoh: letsencrypt? :311:42
bencohkerio: no fscking way11:42
kerio3:11:42
bencohnot for now at least11:42
kerioy not11:42
bencohtheir "automagic" stuff is .... awful11:43
kerioso don't use that client11:43
keriothere's plenty of other ACME clients11:43
bencohyeah sure, like I want to let a cron update a file on my server so that they can fetch it - wtf is wrong with them?11:43
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bencoh1. I dont like the idea 2. it's http-centric11:44
bencoh3. I dont like automagic stuff11:44
bencoh4. I dont need my cert to change every 3 months11:44
keriowut11:47
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KotCzarnybencoh, still, you should update that cert to something more secure, otherwise there is no point in https/ssh11:47
* jonwil is bored11:48
kerioi mean, dns verification is coming soon, afaik11:48
* jonwil has run out of N900 stuff to do11:48
bencoh    Signature Algorithm: sha256WithRSAEncryption11:51
bencohaccording to openssl (?)11:51
Paliusing non-own CA is unsecure11:52
kerioand short-lived certs are a workaround for the unreliable revocation of certs in the TLS PKI11:52
Palijust own certificates could be secure by definition11:52
keriosecure according to what11:52
bencohPali: :)11:52
bencohkerio: according to "who can I trust"11:53
Palisecure according from client to server connection11:53
KotCzarnytrust no 111:53
keriono authentication11:53
Paliif I'm connecting from my mobile to server XYZ, then of course verisign or other CA has nothing to do with connection11:53
Paliit is peer-to-peer connection11:54
kerioyes, but there's no reasonable way to get your server to be trusted by a majority of clients without using a PKI11:55
jonwilLets see what www.ssllabs.com has to say about maemo.muarf.org :P12:00
jonwilit points to a bunch of dangerously weak cyper suites and gives it a fail12:04
Wizzupjonwil: and now you have to wonder what maemo actually supports, with an aging openssl12:05
kerio*aging NSS12:06
keriobut yea12:06
jonwildepends whether you are talking SSL for the browser (which is NSS) or SSL for other things like apt-transport-https (which probably uses openssl)12:06
Wizzupor wget,curl,ssh :)12:07
Wizzup(the latter is not so relevant for http)12:07
kerioanyway, openssl 0.9.8 supports a vaguely decent cipher in DHE-RSA-AES25612:07
kerio(or aes128 i guess)12:07
jonwilSSH is in extras so its age is less of a factor (its not installed by default and someone could update it to something modern without breaking things)12:08
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kerioi updated mine to something modern :312:08
kerioi like me some ed2551912:08
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jonwilyeah apt-transport-https does use openssl12:09
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keriowe really ought to start using openssl 1.0.2 for extras12:09
jonwilwe should ship latest openssl in community-ssu and recompile everything that uses it that is FOSS (or has been cloned) against that version too12:10
keriolet's move to libressl instead :>12:10
jonwileven better :)12:11
kerioi have to run openssl for my tls terminator :<12:12
keriolibressl doesn't have SSL_CTX_add_server_custom_ext12:12
FIQfile a bug report12:12
kerioit's already filed12:12
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FIQmake a pull request12:13
Wizzupkerio: would be good to push out open/libressl and then a recent ssh12:13
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Wizzupjonwil: +100012:13
bencoh12:10 < kerio> let's move to libressl instead :>12:16
bencohand rewrite everything? yeah, sure, good luck :p12:16
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kerioit's very api-compatible12:16
jonwilI am going to go through my on-disk copy of the stock N900 root filesystem, identify everything that links to openssl and make a post about it12:17
KotCzarnyhow very is very?12:17
jonwildocumenting all the binaries that link to openssl12:17
jonwilwhether they are open or closed12:17
jonwilwhat package they are in12:17
kerioKotCzarny: you could be missing some include or something like that12:17
jonwiland if they are closed, what openssl functions they call12:17
KotCzarnykerio: is there any distro that uses libressl by default?12:17
kerioopenbsd12:17
KotCzarnyand for linux world?12:18
keriolinux sucks12:18
FIQyeah but no sane people use openbsd ;)12:18
KotCzarnyhaving linux distro patches would ease eventual fixing12:18
kerioos x's openssh is statically linked against libressl12:18
kerioKotCzarny: oh there's a ton of those actually12:18
Wizzupbencoh: libressl works quite well12:18
kerioopenbsd ports and the like12:19
Wizzupbencoh: gentoo has it for most major packages too12:19
keriofreebsd ports, too!12:19
WizzupKotCzarny: perhaps alpinelinux uses it, otherwise perhaps voidlinux12:19
WizzupKotCzarny: and for gentoo you can just set USE="libressl"12:19
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jonwilWe dont need to replace every single binary that calls openssl in order to improve security (for example its unlikely to matter so much if something like the ActiveSync/Exchange support is still using weak old OpenSSL 0.9.812:22
FIQit does for people who actually use that12:22
Wizzupthat and you can have both openssl 0.9.8 and libressl installed12:23
Wizzup(or openssl 0.9.8 and openssl 1.0.2)12:23
jonwilIt also depends on exactly which calls in openssl each closed-source binary is making12:26
jonwilIf its only calling functions to do, say, SHA1 hashing and isn't using any of the actual SSL logic, it probably isn't a security problem.12:26
WizzupIt would be great if it could all be switched over to a new libre/openssl though12:35
WizzupIf then mainline kernel is managed somehow, you'd have one even more epic system :)12:35
KotCzarnythen all we would need is thinning/removing apps12:37
KotCzarnyhaving 128M of ram free would make it usable12:38
freemangordonjonwil: what were those 2 functions that were waiting to be REed in devicelock?12:38
freemangordonand could I have your IDA DB, to not reinvent the wheel12:38
jonwilits libcodelockui that needs work done12:39
freemangordonok, whatever it is, just hand me the DB :)12:39
jonwilI believe I gave you my latest IDB before12:40
jonwilbut yeah let me get it anyway12:40
jonwilthe missing ones should be marked with todo in the code IIRC12:41
jonwilhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9idqO9KygGsdXltRVBEYWtUQmM/view?usp=sharing12:41
jonwillatest db12:41
freemangordonok, thanks12:42
xescoderus seems gone ..next time time i hope he would provide real ip while asking for a check of the ban..12:43
freemangordonjonwil: wht is the "todo mark", 'z' at the beginning of the name?12:43
jonwilcant remember off the top of my head12:44
freemangordonok, will check against the source code12:44
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KotCzarnyxes, most of those people are from shared ips with reported spammers anyway12:46
KotCzarnyxes, maybe you should add info about it too, and probably link to google in form: http://google.com/?q=$ip12:47
xesKotCzarny: yes, i know. I want give support explaining and checking.  ..But that ip isn't banned and never asked for a TMO page12:53
KotCzarnyxes, i think you can do /whowas coderus and use that one12:54
KotCzarnyor just reply to his mail12:54
xesin fact, coderus is logged in TMO now...12:57
KotCzarnyso, either a spammer or clueless user13:03
ceenejonwil: maybe a priority regarding ssl is QT itself13:03
KotCzarny- coderus is ~coderus@static.88-198-208-108.clients.your-server.de (backdoor)13:03
jonwilQT is open source so its easy to fix13:03
KotCzarnynice 'realname'13:03
ceenei know for a fact that by default it tries to use unsecure algos13:03
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jonwilI am concerned about the closed source bits so we know what might be worthwhile targets for cloning13:04
ceeneon yappari i had to forbid it from using ssl3 beause the servers were rejecting that kind of connection13:04
ceenei guess that gtk/qt will make the majority of ssl users13:05
ceenebut certain closed sources could use openssl by themselves, that's true13:05
KotCzarnywow, maemo.sexy domain is free to register13:07
KotCzarnyis.my.maemo.sexy ;)13:07
ceenelol13:07
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jonwilhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1492735#post149273513:47
jonwilSo there are a total of 9 binaries that are closed source and call openssl functions13:50
KotCzarnyhow did you make that list? ldd?13:50
jonwilno13:51
jonwilI have a local copy of a stock untouched (e.g. no optification) root filesystem on my disk13:51
jonwilI searched that for everything that linked to libssl and libcrypto13:51
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KotCzarnybut how did you actually test if package links to libssl13:51
jonwilIts easy enough to tell by searching for the right strings (i.e. libssl.so and libcrypto.so)13:53
jonwilSo then I matched each of those binaries (the ones referencing libsso and libcrypto in their strings) to a package13:54
jonwiland then for the closed source ones I dumped a list of symbols13:54
jonwillist of imported symbols13:54
jonwiland compared it to the list of symbols exported from libssl/libcrypto13:54
KotCzarnyuhum13:54
jonwiltrust me when I say that the info in the forum thread is accurate and complete13:54
WizzupUse ldd?13:54
WizzupAh13:55
WizzupSorry. Didn't read up.13:55
keriojonwil: is that only for the default rootfs, though?13:55
jonwilyes only for the stock rootfs13:55
jonwilI dont see anywhere else where there are closed source binaries that need examination13:55
kerioidk, the nokia repo13:56
Palijonwil: can you look at http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1491455&postcount=476 ?14:01
jonwilI tried to find where nokia debugging messages come from but was unable to properly reverse engineer the relavent bits (my clone does the same job as stock but it does it in a different way)14:02
Palijust add them into your clone14:03
Palirun binary and copy strings (if you do not know from where comes from)14:03
Palithis should be easy14:03
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HalftuxPali you still need this available-notifications file?14:09
jonwilok, so I checked the list of packages that http://mirrors.muarf.org/maemo/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/mr0/ (nokia repo) says it provides against the list of packages installed on the root filesystem image I have14:16
jonwilThen for the ones on the repo but not the root FS I checked if they were in the SDK repo as source14:17
jonwiland for the few that aren't FOSS, they aren't using OpenSSL (I checked)14:17
PaliHalftux: of course :-)14:17
jonwilso http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1492735#post1492735 contains the complete list of all the closed-source things talking to openssl unless there is a repo somewhere I dont know about14:18
jonwiland we now have enough information (hopefully) to evaluate each of those closed binaries and figure out what the security risks might be going forward if those binaries continue to talk to openssl 0.9.814:19
jonwilhmmm, I never knew modest used microb-engine...14:22
KotCzarnyalmost everything in maemo uses microb engine14:22
KotCzarnyat least if there is html involved in app14:23
jonwilyeah :)14:23
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HalftuxPali: I had a look at my phone which had ota updates from Nokia. But the file was not there. Then the yellow update notification pops up and a file available-notifications.tmp was created. I think when the blinking stops the file disappears. After ignoring the updates a seen-updates file was created. Don't know if the temp file is of any help sadly I was to slow to copy it.14:25
jonwilThe good news is that everything talking to NSS seems to be FOSS14:28
jonwilmicrob-engine and bits of modest being the main ones14:28
jonwilso it should be possible to replace NSS with something newer (and make any necessary changes in microb-engine etc) easily enough14:29
WizzupI guess it's very hard to port microb engine to use newer firefox engines14:29
jonwilyes it is14:30
jonwilfor a bunch of reasons including Flash14:30
jonwilbut updating NSS and the security sensitive stuff should be possible without breaking things14:31
bencohmodest depends on NSS?14:31
xesFlash? Who is so mad to use it?14:31
jonwilyes it does14:31
bencohoh and, seriously, flash...14:31
bencohI'm sure most of us would be happy to trade a flash-enabled browser with a real "fast" html5-compatible browser14:32
PaliHalftux: .tmp file is created and HAM try to download new version to it from nokia server (which is down)14:32
Wizzupjonwil: I think gnash does better flash than the maemo flash :)14:33
jonwilFennec probably has just as many security issues as microb but since its not an official part of the system (not even sure where it comes from) its not within the scope of CSSU14:35
HalftuxPali: ok I see14:35
jonwiland therefore CSSU people dont need to care about fixing it14:36
jonwilmain thing is, we have target list for closed source binaries that may present security risk if not moved to newer openssl14:37
Wizzup:)14:39
bencohhmm, looks like curl on maemo doesnt make any use of tlsv1 (?)14:44
bencoherror SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO ...14:44
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jonwilwould be good to see security improvements for Maemo15:11
jonwilbut its a matter of finding people who understand the libraries and code involved (openssl, libcurl, microb, nss etc)15:12
KotCzarnyin case of libressl it could be as simple as recompiling15:12
jonwilfor the things that are FOSS yes15:12
KotCzarny(and source available)15:12
jonwilbut for the closed source things we need to figure out which ones are using openssl in a way that matters for security15:13
jonwilalso we need to deal with how certain things use openssl (e.g. lubcurl and libqt4-network) to make sure they use it in a way that is secure15:13
jonwili.e. selecting the right algorithms and stuff and not claiming to support the old insecure stuff15:14
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bencohis libcurl part of the stock system?15:17
jonwilyes it is15:17
bencohah.15:18
jonwilits used by (among other things) apt-transport-https15:19
jonwiland nokia maps15:19
jonwiland flash15:20
jonwiland activysync daemon15:20
jonwilactivesync15:20
bencohhmm15:21
jonwilhmm what?15:21
bencohthen we need to either patch it to use the tlsv1 function or try to pull a recent version from upstream15:22
bencohfirst option is probably the easiest one15:22
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jonwilyeah once we have newer openssl/libressl we need to fix up libcurl so that it makes the right calls to openssl to do all the correct security stuff (and none of the stuff we dont want like sslv3)15:23
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bencohwe dont even need to upgrade for that15:27
bencoh(ssl*_15:27
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merlin1991iirc curl in cssu is "newer" and should behave better15:51
jonwilwe do, we dont just want TLS1.0 we want whatever the latest TLS standard is15:51
jonwilTLSv2 or whatever it is15:51
bencohmerlin1991: in -testing maybe15:51
bencoh(-testing/-devel)15:52
merlin1991bencoh: yep15:52
merlin1991(testing)15:52
merlin1991iirc luf did that15:52
bencohluf?15:52
merlin1991hm stable also has curl 7.2615:54
bencohyeah, that's what I have here as well15:58
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ceeneqt4 doesn't support tlsv1.2 i think16:50
ceeneor at least it needs openssl 1.0.116:50
ceeneso...16:51
ceenesometime in the future we may be not even able to access https sites?16:51
jonwildepends what browser you are using16:53
jonwilmicrob needs nss updated16:53
ceenei was trying to get at why getmewheels wasn't working16:54
jonwilfennec is likely using its own copy of NSS (although by all accounts there are builds of Fennec for the N900 that are a fair bit newer than microb)16:54
ceeneand it's because car2go site uses tlsv1.216:54
ceenegetmewheels an interface to an http based api16:54
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ceeneso... this application is now useless16:54
jonwilits not useless, it just needs someone to bring newer OpenSSL to Maemo then someone to fix QT to use the new OpenSSL and pick the best/most secure/etc settings16:55
ceenei don't think it's going to be very easy, isn't it?16:55
jonwilit probably wont be as hard as it looks...16:56
Sicelosorry to go back to 'old' news ... i don't understand the significance of the file Pali was working on for HAM. we've been getting updates without it. what is it important for?16:57
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PaliSicelo: update for stock n900 devices16:58
Palinot apt update, just pop-up note with URL link16:58
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jonwilok, zzz time17:02
jonwilcya later :)17:02
KotCzarnysicelo: it was to notify users that dont know about t.m.o or w.m.o or cssu that there is something they can install17:02
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KotCzarnypali, but if the sources for ham are available, maybe its just as simple as pushing updated ham into extras?17:03
PaliKotCzarny: no, HAM does not allow updates for NokiaSSU packages which are not from NokiaSSU repo17:04
Paliit has special pinning in HAM for it17:04
KotCzarnyuhum17:04
Palireason why we need to patch everything in CSSU17:04
PaliCSSU installer adds new repo with higher priority17:04
Paliand so this repo can update packages also from NokiaSSU repo17:05
Paliit is security framework, something like in harmattan, but fully open and configurable17:05
KotCzarnybtw. if m$ ever decides to revive nssu repos and push rogue things there to install bugs, will they succeed?17:05
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Sicelowhy would they do that?17:18
Sicelothanks for explanation by the way :)17:19
KotCzarnysicelo, because evil people often do evil things17:19
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guest123there also is http://maemo-repos.com/apt-mirror/17:20
guest123http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9587017:20
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KotCzarnywtf was that?17:20
sixwheeledbeastSingapore calling...17:21
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M-bobsummerwillDocScrutinizer05 and infobot:  Thanks!   Will do that when my N900 arrives.18:06
KotCzarnyinfobot is a bot18:07
KotCzarnyinfobot: botsnack18:07
infobotaw, gee, KotCzarny18:07
Wizzupaw, gee, KotCzarny18:07
M-bobsummerwillDoesn't mean I can't say thanks :-)18:08
KotCzarnywizzup: rollover18:08
Wizzup\o/18:08
KotCzarnybob: sure, why not18:08
M-bobsummerwill:-P18:08
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M-bobsummerwillLuke-jr:  It sounds like you've already made up your mind about Ethereum, but for everybody else's benefit, let me reply.18:16
M-bobsummerwillIn summary, Bitcoin introduced two new innovations at the same time:18:16
M-bobsummerwillBlock-chain.   Decentralized open ledger, consensus mechanism.18:16
M-bobsummerwillCrypto-currency built on top of that block-chain.18:16
M-bobsummerwillGreat stuff.   However, the "VM" for the Bitcoin block-chain was designed only for that single purpose.  You can transfer crypto-currency excellently, but using it as a consensus mechanism for other purposes is hard.   You see a bunch of other "Bitcoin 2.0" projects coming into existence which are piggy-backing on the Bitcoin block-chain for things like land registry, digital assets, insurance, etc.    The problem they18:16
M-bobsummerwillall have is that the Bitcoin block-chain really wasn't designed for that.18:16
M-bobsummerwillEthereum block-chain is Turing-complete, so you can build anything on it.18:16
M-bobsummerwillNow of course, it's not at all intended as a replacement for local CPUs.    That would be insane.   It's probably trillions of times slower.   Obviously.18:17
M-bobsummerwillIt's just intended for consensus18:18
M-bobsummerwillAccounts.   Who owns A, B, C.18:18
M-bobsummerwillAnd then the "new stuff" over Bitcoin is that you can build (simple) behaviours on top.   AKA - "smart contracts", which are self-executing.   Like our friend "infobot"18:19
M-bobsummerwillie. If Condition A then pay money to account B.18:19
M-bobsummerwillEscrow18:19
M-bobsummerwillInsurance18:19
M-bobsummerwillShares18:19
M-bobsummerwillVoting mechanisms18:19
M-bobsummerwillblah blah blah18:20
M-bobsummerwillBut all just on the Ethereum block-chain using the basic functionality of the system, rather than wedged into the Bitcoin block-chain with a crow-bar and external systems.18:20
M-bobsummerwillThat's about it.18:20
M-bobsummerwillhttp://devcon.ethereum.org18:20
M-bobsummerwillNot a shitcoin.   It'18:21
M-bobsummerwillIt's a technology18:21
M-bobsummerwillYou have a real absence of the speculators in Ethereum.   It's all technologists.18:21
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Luke-JrM-bobsummerwill: lol19:16
Luke-JrM-bobsummerwill: maybe if any of the people working on Ethereum ever did Bitcoin development, they would have realised Bitcoin already does basically everything useful that Ethereum aims to do19:17
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M-bobsummerwillLuke-jr:  I don't know quite why you are being so aggressive and religious here.    Vitalik Buterin, the creator of Ethereum, co-founded Bitcoin magazine in 2011, and is no crypto-dummy.    It must be delightful for you to have such utterly certainly in your own opinions that you can discard the efforts of thousands of people to advance the state of technology.    Also, delightful that there is "one true way".20:11
Wizzup-> private messages?20:18
M-bobsummerwillOr "let's agree to disagree", I think.20:19
M-bobsummerwillAnyway ... I'll get going with my N900 development as-and-when.   Best wishes, everyone!20:20
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xeswhat is this? Advertising channel?20:39
APicWhat does it look like?20:40
KotCzarnylooks like proud software dev overdefending his work20:41
xesan advertising monologue?20:41
KotCzarny+ backlock reading20:41
KotCzarny*backlog20:41
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useretailhey everyone, i had power kernel and decided to return back to stock, so i launched Nokia kernel from menu and restored stock kernel (got successful message) after that removed power kernel settings package. but after reboot device went to reboot loop: nokia logo screen with usb icon appears on pale screen. after that black screen lights up and after few seconds reboots. any suggestions?21:24
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freemangordonuseretail: it might be that kernel could not find its modules, try to flash kernel-power again, by using the flasher21:29
useretailfreemangordon: ok, so what do i need to flash exactly? looks like i had that problem some time ago. i have uImage-2.6.28.10-power52 and zImage-2.6.28.10-power52 images21:33
freemangordonuseretail: maybe first try to use zImage, and tell the flasher to only boot that kernel21:37
freemangordonthen you can flash wuth uImage21:37
freemangordon*with21:37
KotCzarnyor just try to use flasher to BOOT without flashing21:46
KotCzarnyright.21:46
useretailKotCzarny: how? i can't get it stop rebooting21:46
freemangordonKotCzarny: please help him, as I don;t have time now21:47
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KotCzarnyuseretail, grab the kernel power image package on pc, unpack it21:51
useretailKotCzarny: yeah, i have done that already21:52
KotCzarnyflasher-3.5 -k kernelimgfile -l21:52
KotCzarnythere is also -b param to set default cmdline for kernel21:54
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KotCzarnyBy using the "-l" option, we do not flash the kernel or initrd image.21:55
KotCzarnyIt only loads the kernel into RAM. No modification on the NAND or bootloader happens.21:56
KotCzarny0xFFFF also can load kernel21:56
KotCzarny0xFFFF -m kernelfile -l21:56
KotCzarnyi assume you know how and when to connect n90021:57
KotCzarnyif not, run flasher/0xffff command first, then connect (powered off) n900 via usb cable to computer21:57
useretailok, flashed the kernel. but it still doesn't boot and more importantly doesnt charge from wall charger22:05
KotCzarnydid you use -l ?22:08
KotCzarny-l mean to 'load/boot only' not actual flashing22:08
useretailwell i actually flashed: flasher-3.5 -k zImage-2.6.28.10-power52 --flash-only=kernel -f -R22:09
KotCzarnyeh22:09
KotCzarnyanyway, you can still try to boot22:09
KotCzarnyas n900 is unkillable by flasher-3.522:09
useretailok, how to extract and flash default stock nokia kernel only?22:10
KotCzarnybut are you sure power52 was your kernel?22:10
KotCzarnyi think most recent is 5422:10
useretailyeah, absolutely22:10
freemangordonuseretail: use rootfs image and tell the flasher to flash kernel only22:11
KotCzarnyfmg, but if he is missing modules as you suspected it wont help at all22:11
KotCzarnyuseretail, you can also boot rescueos22:12
KotCzarnyand check which modules dirs you have under /lib/modules/22:12
freemangordonKotCzarny: but there should be at least *some* modules22:12
KotCzarnyalso, it can charge the battery22:12
freemangordonyeah, rescueos might help22:12
KotCzarnybut beware, if you discharge battery too much, you wont be able to boot anything22:13
KotCzarny(unless you have second device in which you can recharge it)22:13
useretailok, booted rescueos. how to run charger script?22:17
freemangordon~rescueos22:18
infobotsomebody said rescueos was http://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/22:18
freemangordonuseretail: https://n900.quitesimple.org/rescueOS/rescueOS-1.2/documentation.txt22:18
freemangordon"/rescueOS/charge21.bash"22:18
freemangordonuseretail: mount maemo rootfs and check what is in /lib/modules22:21
freemangordonthen either flash the correct kernel (if there is anything in /lib/modules) or copy the needed debs to the device, chroot to maemo and install them22:22
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useretailthere are: 2.6.28-omap1 2.6.28.10-bfs10 2.6.28.10-power53 current22:34
useretailhow to detect which ones are in current?22:34
useretailok figured out22:35
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freemangordonuseretail: are there any files in 2.6.28-omap1?22:40
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useretailfreemangordon: one moment. i rebooted to see if flashing power53 will boot device22:42
freemangordonok22:43
useretailyeah, it worked.22:47
KotCzarnyyeah. 52 for sure?22:47
useretailno, 5322:47
KotCzarny> but are you sure power52 was your kernel?22:47
KotCzarny<useretail> yeah, absolutely22:47
useretaillol22:47
useretaili was wrong22:47
useretaili guess22:48
KotCzarnynow update to 54 and be happy22:48
KotCzarnyor go cssu22:48
freemangordon:)22:51
useretailwhile upgrading i ran out of free space on rootfs, so i cancelled kernel upgrade. after that was struggling to remove some stuff to freeup some space, than decided to remove power kernel and go back to stock, than that22:51
KotCzarny:)22:51
useretailgeez22:51
KotCzarnyif you are cautious you can move some things from / to /opt and symlinking back22:51
useretailenough experiments for today22:52
useretaili need to work tomorrow22:52
useretailthanks for the help guys22:53
useretailcya around22:53
* useretail off to bed22:53
DocScrutinizer05hhhh,  ubi0:rootfs           228M  184M   40M  83% /23:05
DocScrutinizer05hmmm even23:05
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