IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2015-11-18

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bencohhmm ... is there a good reason why we dont have hostapd in -extras?00:50
Sicelois our chip supported?00:58
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Siceloand will we have enough processing power and memory for it?00:59
Sicelo009Nbut it sure would be nice to have01:01
bencohlooks like TI worked on hostapd+wl12xx01:01
bencohand they have some hostapd accesspoint examples on their wiki01:02
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bencohNote: There is a different firmware file for station and for access-point modes. Make sure you pick the right one (or both).
bencohI dont like that01:04
Sicelo009Nperhaps you can build in SB :)01:08
bencohbuild hostapd? probably, but what I'm worried about is the need to change firmware, and possibly NVS calibration01:10
bencoheven though we could load a different firmware since we keep loading/unloading wireless drivers in maemo01:11
Sicelo009Ni think so01:12
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DocScrutinizer05calib and firmware are two independent things02:57
DocScrutinizer05and iirc the calib tools are even available on same site as the firmware02:57
DocScrutinizer05what sucks is closed blob firmware, but that's life02:57
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jonwilIts a pitty we dont have an Atheros chip in there to play with03:56
jonwilif is to be believed, they are extremely well documented and open03:56
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: have you checked size and power rating? And interface04:17
jonwilyeah true :)04:18
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DocScrutinizer05Neo900 / Openphoenux searched for years and in the end it's WiLink each single time04:19
DocScrutinizer05there might be smaller chips, also maybe cheaper chips. But invariably it's about open documentation and source-ability04:21
DocScrutinizer05so in the end WiLink 5/6/7/8 nine e1even thirwelve04:21
DocScrutinizer05many of those extremely open and versatile chips are actually "stack runs on system CPU", something you really don't want for a battery powered embedded system04:24
DocScrutinizer05compare to ancient cheap printers, where the windows CPU did each phase of the stepper motors and shaped each pulse of each single needle04:30
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jonwilI know various Snapdragon chips contain Atheros bits in there, I wonder if Atheros is as open with the WiFi parts of those as they are with their standalone WiFi chips...04:31
DocScrutinizer05when I hear snapdrogon I turn and leave04:32
jonwilwhats wrong with Snapdragon?04:32
DocScrutinizer05I don't think i've seen a Snapdragon SoC that would work without *massive* blobs for bootloader or whatever04:33
jonwiloh ouch04:33
jonwilI wonder why Qualcomm would want to be so closed about that stuff04:33
DocScrutinizer05isn't qualcom a synonym for "closed blobs"?04:35
jonwilIt wouldn't surprise me if a number of the vendors who use Snapdragon SoCs LIKE the fact that everything is closed and you have to go through the vendor to get any updates to drivers etc04:36
jonwilI know lots of Android vendors would rather not share anything because then people can run newer versions of Android on older devices04:37
jonwilOr even just custom versions of Android that dont have all the usual OEM/carrier bloatware04:37
jonwilIn any case Neo900 has to use OMAP3 chips to be compatible with N90004:37
jonwiland we have to use whatever limited documentation on the OMAP stuff we can find04:38
jonwilplus whatever binary GPU blobs we can get04:38
DocScrutinizer05((wouldn't surprise)) yep, most do04:40
DocScrutinizer05docs on OMAP are pretty comprehensive04:41
DocScrutinizer05and nicely public04:41
jonwilso other than the GPU are there any other things in the particular OMAP chip we are using that are undocumented but where having documentation would be of potential benefit to Neo900?04:42
jonwilor is everything else worth knowing documented in the OMAP tech docs?04:42
jonwilDo we have all the stuff worth having in regards to the DSP parts?04:45
DocScrutinizer05for the GP devices afaik every bit of info is publicly available (well, except exact bytecode of ROMBOOT)04:45
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I think DSP is a tad thin but docs should be available, maybe from gray market / darknet04:46
DocScrutinizer05then OTOH this series of TI DSPs is legendary and age old, and I guess they are all somewhat similar. But I have to admit I never looked into them04:47
DocScrutinizer05would be surprised if there wasn't a well documented assembler for those DSP cores04:48
DocScrutinizer05TMS320 series04:49
jonwilyeah true04:49
jonwilsounds like the PowerVR core is the only part of the OMAP chip that is undocumented then04:50
jonwiland even if it was documented we wouldn't want to write our own GPU driver anyway04:50
jonwilwe would still want to use something that exists04:50
jonwilThe biggest missing piece of the puzzle for Neo900 has nothing to do with the OMAP anyway, its the blobs we need for the audio :)04:55
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DocScrutinizer05I think we could do without, worst case04:58
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jonwilThe main problem there is finding someone with enough knowledge of ARM reverse engineering to finish the job of reverse engineering the blobs (that or the source code for the blobs falling out of the sky somehow :)04:59
DocScrutinizer05unlike BB5 our modem has a simple plain standard PCM/I2S audio interface, exactly like the codec/mixer audiochip in N900 already does. And our modem already has all the audio enhancement embedded that is done in closed PA plugins on N90005:00
DocScrutinizer05if everything else fails we could attach the modem audio (and control) over a RTP (and SIP) loopback as a virtual SIP account05:01
jonwilfreemangordon: ping05:03
DocScrutinizer05basically asterisk is all that's needed for such "local loopback"05:06
DocScrutinizer05and iirc asterisk is already available for maemo, and working05:07
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DocScrutinizer05I wouldn't even feel surprised if asterisk already offers a USB modem connection plugin for circuit switched calls05:09
DocScrutinizer05and if it doesn't, we patch a AVM ISDN card driver into shape05:10
jonwilbtw did we end up finding all the necessary parts to make the keyboard work (i.e. dome sheet)?05:15
DocScrutinizer05we have sources, but no physical domesheets yet. We have alternatives which would involve a lot of manual work to place the 39 switches, and it lacks kbd backlight. It's a worst case fallback05:33
DocScrutinizer05building the mere domesheet is basically a nobrainer. The lightspreader part is tricky05:33
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jonwilisn't the lights preader part of the dome sheet on a N900?06:10
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OksanaThe domesheet comes together with motherboard, it's not something that can be sourced with mechanical parts07:30
OksanaAnd yes, the lightspreader part of domesheet-being-built-for-Neo900-motherboards turns out to be tricky?07:31
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zGrrmoin :)10:52
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Sicelo009Nso someone is selling a Ti 81 calculator for USD17.50, and all of us 'geeks' are looking at it11:22
Sicelo009Nthen, i whip up my N900 & launch ATI85 ;)11:24
KotCzarnyand you can has n900 with broken cellular for that amount11:24
jonwilThe only reason the Texas Instruments calculators continue to exist (and continue to cost what they do new) is because TI have convinced school authorities all over the world to declare TI calculators the "approved" calculators for exams and stuff11:25
KotCzarnythey are right in a way there are smart devices that are similar size but with enormous abilities11:26
KotCzarnythat can connect to the site that will solve just any problem11:27
jonwilmerlin1991: ping11:29
jonwilfreemangordon: ping11:29
Sicelo009Ntbh i've never really used ATI85 in the 4 years i've had it installed. now feel like getting the manual for Ti calculators11:37
keriojonwil: isn't it a massive antitrust violation, anyway?11:38
jonwilThere are other companies making graphics calculators and the school is free to choose those if they want (Casio makes them for one thing, not sure if the HP ones still exist or not)11:39
bencohiirc they do11:49
bencohand Casio calculators are "approved" by schools as well (at least in Europe)11:49
bencohbut I honestly think they're far behind the TI ones11:50
KotCzarnyin my times we had pen and paper11:50
bencoh(or used to be... that was 10y ago :)11:50
KotCzarnyto solve math problems11:50
bencohKotCzarny: actually I've hardly used a calculator to solve a maths problem11:51
keriowhy do you even use calculators in school anyway11:53
KotCzarnybecause lazy11:53
kerioyeah but... graphing ones?11:53
jonwilI use the calculator app on my N900 to do calculations all the time11:53
jonwiland I use the Windows calculator a LOT for doing stuff with hex numbers11:54
KotCzarnyuse use bash and printf for hex fun11:57
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t4nk226i have a problem connecting with, message says that my ip is on antispam blacklist. the thing is i don't remember any registration or post written by me20:08
KotCzarnymight be your ip belong to some more people (now or in the past) that made it to the internet bad ip lists20:13
t4nk226Kocie, mam ip z UPC, oni tak często zmieniają ip, że mam je od jakichś 2 lat20:15
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KotCzarnyt4nk226: czyli dynamiczna ipka, masz pecha ze poprzedni 'wlasciciel' cos nabroil20:20
KotCzarnychyba ze wchodziles na tmo juz z ta ipka, wtedy moze wirusa jakiegos masz20:20
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t4nk226nie było możliwości, żeby ktoś inny miał to ip, bo mam je od 2 lat non stop i nie zanosi się na zmianę (nawet na infolinii mówią, że pula jest wyczerpana), na talk.maemo wchodzilem jakis czas temu i problemow nie bylo, wirusow tez nie ma20:23
KotCzarnyjeszcze opcja ze cala klasa ipek trafila na listy20:23
t4nk226chyba ze to przez losowego useragenta przegladarki20:23
KotCzarnypierwszy link z googla20:25
KotCzarnyjednak trafiles na liste rblowa20:25
KotCzarnyalbo masz wirusa albo dziurawe proxy masz20:25
t4nk226swietnie ...20:26
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KotCzarnyno ja bym na twoim miejscu sprawdzil antyvirem ew. jak masz tam jakis serwer to czy wlamu nie miales20:26
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t4nk226sprawdze, raczej nie jest fajnie miec poblokowanego za darmo neta20:27
KotCzarnyew. opcja ze ktos do ciebie z laptopem przyszedl wpial sie i tak trafiles20:29
KotCzarnyprzedwczoraj miales gosci?20:29
t4nk226nie, wlasnie prowadze sledztwo, w niedziele udostepnialem na zewnatrz tylko wordpressa przez jakies pol godziny, pozniej juz nic20:30
t4nk226odpalilem jednego antywira, przeleci 2 dyski i pewnie nic nie znajdzie20:31
KotCzarnyno to juz masz punkt zaczepienia20:31
t4nk226zgloszenia sa z 16.11 a wp byl online 15.11 kolo 22.3020:31
KotCzarnymhm, tak czy owak posprawdzaj, bo to raczej samo z siebie sie nie zrobilo20:32
DocScrutinizer05t4nk226: sorry I can't follow. Please use english language20:33
t4nk226Doc: i have a problem connecting with, message says that my ip is on antispam blacklist. the thing is i don't remember any registration or post written by me20:33
DocScrutinizer05I've seen that post20:33 sent by KotCzarny says that my ip was reported20:34
DocScrutinizer05then try changing your IP maybe20:35
t4nk226thinking about someone got into my wifi (hard password to break, so not so easy), maybe virus but it won't happen by itself20:35
DocScrutinizer05though odds are the complete provider subnet is blacklisted20:35
t4nk226ISP is not providing anything like that, the pool is so tight that even having dynamic ip got me stuck with this ip for about 2 years20:36
DocScrutinizer05t4nk226: no, you got dynamic IP and when you do a reset to your DSL connection, odds are your IP will change20:36
KotCzarnyt4nk226: changing ip is not the solution, because clearly no one else used it, and you got in the rbl, so it might happen again20:37
DocScrutinizer05well, then contact chem|st20:37
t4nk226well, unfortunately not, the modem+router machine i have is shitty, i had a battle with it some time ago and nothing has changed20:37
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t4nk226how long the ip stays in stopforumspam database ?20:40
DocScrutinizer05contact chem|st, ask him for assisantce to register to tmo20:40
KotCzarnyyou might want to email that db admins20:40
DocScrutinizer05assistance even20:40
DocScrutinizer05alternatively warfare20:41
DocScrutinizer05both are in here20:41
t4nk226chem|st ? sorry, not familiar with thos20:42
KotCzarnydo a /whois20:43
KotCzarnyits a nick20:43
DocScrutinizer05that's an problem of your unfamiliarity with IRC ;-)  Both are users in this channel, just like you20:44
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chem|stt4nk226: please send a mail to techstaff@m.o asking for your ip being removed from the blocklist (include the ip), please.20:46
chem|stmail as if that wasn't clear20:47
t4nk226ok, thanks20:47
sixwheeledbeastohh there's a factoid for that...20:47
infobothmm... unbanip is please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request20:48
chem|stsixwheeledbeast: lol20:48
sixwheeledbeastit's easier20:48
KotCzarnyswb: ah, thats' how its named, i was thinking something with the staff in the name ;)20:48
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t4nk226I just wrote two mails, one for techstaff and one for stopforumspam, hope it'll help21:12
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DocScrutinizer05~#maemo techstaff is - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay21:44
DocScrutinizer05~unbanip is also see ~techstaff21:45
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0521:45
infoboti heard unbanip is please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request21:45
DocScrutinizer05~factinfo unbanip21:46
infobotunbanip -- created by DocScrutinizer05 <~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg> 31s ago.21:46
DocScrutinizer05~forget unbanip21:46
infoboti forgot unbanip, DocScrutinizer0521:46
DocScrutinizer05~literal unbanip21:46
infobot"#maemo unbanip" is "please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request"21:46
DocScrutinizer05~#maemo unbanip is also see ~techstaff21:46
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0521:46
infobotwell, unbanip is please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request, or see ~techstaff21:46
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, #maemo techstaff is techstaff(AT) - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0521:51
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bencoh(when you already know which xkcd it is before clicking ... bleh :)21:55
DocScrutinizer05well... actually techstaff did such an awesome job the the mere technical infra runs almost unattended since years now. Of course this doesn't apply to highly problematic exposed services like vBulletin aka tmo, which I'm sure gives its administrators a constatnt stream of 'fun'22:04
DocScrutinizer05uptime of blades aka xen hosts is in the 600 days22:05
DocScrutinizer05err >>  21:06:01 up 867 days, 19:28,  0 users,  load average: 4.40, 4.35, 3.77  <<22:06
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jonwilfreemangordon: ping22:13
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bencohjonwil: about your post on TMO... why do you need to wrap it if you want to keep them "as is" ?22:28
jonwilNo, I meant we use specific functions from the blobs22:29
jonwiland clone or rewrite others22:29
jonwili.e. we rewrite the stuff for cmtspeech22:29
jonwilbut we keep e.g. fir_iq stuff22:29
jonwilor other stuff with all that math22:29
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jonwildo you follow?22:30
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bencohnot sure22:34
bencohwhy would we rewrite only half of it?22:34
bencoh(I mean, why bother if we cant/dont remove the whole blob?)22:34
jonwilfor Neo90022:35
jonwilbecause we need to replace the cellular bits22:35
jonwilbut we dont need to replace some of the other stuff since Neo900 has the same audio system as N900 other than the cellular stuff22:35
jonwilalso we could use this for testing, i.e. clone some parts and use others, see that it works then clone more22:36
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bencohare we still talking about the nokia voice pa module?22:38
jonwilyes we are22:38
bencohisn't this one quite "far" from the cmtspeech stuff in the pipeline?22:38
jonwilno, its not22:38
bencohI see22:38
jonwilmodule-nokia-voice on N900 statically links to a library called libcmtspeech22:39
bencohthat's a pity22:39
jonwilwhich is what talks to the cellular radio22:39
jonwilyes it is a pitty22:39
bencohnow I get your point22:39
jonwilbut we have to do what we need to22:39
bencohdoes that mean SIP stuff doesn't go through nokia-voice?22:39
bencohor do they have another entrypoint for SIP/RTP?22:39
bencohs#SIP/RTP#telepathy calls#22:40
jonwilthere is a different entrypoint (pulseaudio sink)22:41
jonwilFor a cellular call, the cellular services daemon sends a signal ( to tell module-nokia-voice (and libcmtspeech) to start doing audio22:42
jonwilthen libcmtspeech takes audio from the cellular modem and feeds it through various algorithms and out to other parts of PA and then the speakers22:43
jonwiland vice versa for microphone audio22:43
jonwilmodule-nokia-voice creates 2 sinks (raw sink and voip sink) and 3 sink inputs (aep sink input, hw sink input and cs call sink input)22:46
jonwilfor sources there is raw source and voip source plus a hw source output22:46
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bencohlooks like a monolithic monster22:47
jonwilyes its a beast22:47
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jonwilnow do you see the wisdom of my idea? :)22:55
bencohkinda, yeah :)22:57
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ceenei was wondering... hasn't anyone thought of implementing a smartphone based on the zynq7000 soc from xilinx? even the gsm/3g/4g interface could be open source, implemented on the fpga part of he zynq23:05
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DocScrutinizer05wait! one PA plugin (module-nokia-voice) handles both csd and RTP audio? this sounds terribly wrong particularly for RTP which should get done by some FOSS module - there are quite a few, libccrtp comes to mind23:06
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ceeneif i'm not mistaken osmocom software and docs would greatly help with this, as they have implemented the bts, so the terminal itself should be probably easier and possibly a subset of that23:06
jonwilTelepathy or some other part of the system feeds VoIP audio into module-nokia-voice which does some algos on it (including xprot for speaker protection) and feeds it down the chain into the rest of PA23:07
Humpelstilzchenceene: zynq is pretty big23:07
ceeneand pretty cool :P23:07
jonwilin any case once I get hold of freemangordon, I plan to ask for commit access to and see what I can figure out and add to that repo :)23:08
ceenetwo arms, a big integrated fpga in which to implement almost all hardware23:08
Humpelstilzchenyes, but implementing gsm etc on vhdl? Sounds like a full time job more multiple devs, if you can get this even certified23:08
DocScrutinizer05ceene: a) osmocom bts stack is mostly unrelated to the MT radio stack, it's working in quite a different way than a phone  b) no matter how you implement the hardware and th radio stack, it's illegal to use it when user can replace or modify it23:08
ceenei know for a fact that xilinx has demonstrated an LTE client23:09
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ceeneimplemented on just two chips, the zynq and one thing from TI, if i recall correctly, a dual transceiver23:10
ceenewell, it can be done technically :)23:10
Humpelstilzchenceene: uuh nice, probably one of the more expensive IPs I guess23:10
ceenei don't know if they sell it, to be honest23:10
ceenebut if they have implemented it, i guess you can buy it23:11
ceenethere are simpler cores for gsm that i think are included in basic licensing schemes23:11
ceene2g is probably feasible23:12
Humpelstilzchenceene: I see kintex IPs (thats the big ones)23:13
DocScrutinizer05also I wonder how much of practrical use such a proof of concept implementation would have. I mean, I worked with modem manufacturers and I can tell for sure the radio stack is a system way more complex and larger than for example a bare bones linux, and it's in the 3 digit man years what companies like ST-Ericsson invest into development of such stack, not included the effort to get everything tested in field and then approved by 1223:13
DocScrutinizer05dozen international authorieties like FCC23:13
ceeneone man can dream...23:15
Humpelstilzchenso uuh here is a zynq based
bencohyou'd still need to go from vhdl/fpga to asic23:16
DocScrutinizer05no matter what, you for sure can publish the radio stack source even under GPL, but as a manufacturer you must assure that only FCC-cerified sw stacks get used on your hardware. And FCC won't certify any firmware that doesn't enforce this limitation23:16
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bencohbecause you dont want to keep a fpga running on some pocket embedded system23:16
bencohI can haz moar battery plz?23:16
ceeneDocScrutinizer05: fcc is an US only thing, isn't it?23:17
DocScrutinizer05bencoh: yep, that's just a more real-life aspect that usually excludes FPGA from the list of stuff you want in a battery powered embedded system23:18
DocScrutinizer05ceene: please take FCC for a wildcard for any authority ruling radio band usage in your country23:18
ceenei don't know if power consumption would be worse than our n900 though...23:19
bencohn900 isnt that power hungry23:19
bencohespecially when idling23:19
DocScrutinizer05the modem has a standby energy consumption of only 12mW23:19
ceenein my experience the screen is the worst offender23:19
ceeneso maybe the communication subsystem in the end is not the thing that requires the most optimization23:20
DocScrutinizer05no, the backlight is, plus data transfer over cellular, plus WLAN when in scanning mode23:20
Humpelstilzchenadd gps to the list23:20
ceenewhatever, screen needs baklight, so it's the same for me23:20
DocScrutinizer05plus CPU when you run a really poorly written app that keeps the CPU busy23:20
DocScrutinizer05Humpelstilzchen: yes, GPS can eat some power. Camera as well23:21
ceenepareto says 80% of my power goes out to the screen, even if it's only lighted on for just 20% of the timwe23:22
DocScrutinizer05ceene: backlight can get dimmed. Just one tick down from brightness 5 to 4 already makes backlight consume only 20-30%23:22
bencoh"pareto effect"23:23
DocScrutinizer05did somebod<y finally pick up on my idea to write a *system* monitor23:23
bencohI dont think so23:23
ceenei still think a zynq smartphone would be pretty cool23:25
bencohwith a car lead battery, definitely :°23:26
ceeneit wouldn't be so bad23:27
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, power is
Siceloidea of system monitor ... meaning what in N900 context?23:44
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DocScrutinizer05check all (known) subsystems for activity, estimate the power consumption that comes from this for each of them, compare to measured power consumption as seen by BQ2720023:45
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DocScrutinizer05sth like >> total measured energy consumption: 1980mW (520mA@3.81V) \n estimation for cellular: 1100mW, based on 'data: 41,4kBytes/sec RX, 528Bytes/s TX, in 9 packets/s', 'signal: -74dB', 'Radio Access Technology: UMTS', 'no call active'  \n  Screen backlight: 0mW, based on 'screen blaked, backlight off', 'actual brightness: 0%', 'configured brightness: 80%, ALS dynamic' \n Camera: 0mW based on 'not active' \n estimation for WLAN: 30mW23:57
DocScrutinizer05based on: 'idle', 'data: 0Bytes/s', 'beacons: 20/s', 'PSM: high' \n ...23:57

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