IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2015-09-07

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vectis	dependency issues - I upgraded libcurl which removed the specific version that Xomap required I guess. I'm very slowly getting the hang of upgrading system packages.	00:28
KotCzarny	o.O	00:29
KotCzarny	but why xomap requires libcurl	00:29
vectis	That I don't know, but it was in the control file.	00:30
vectis	hmm, can't find it now.	00:32
KotCzarny	anyway, good thing you've figured it out	00:32
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vectis	yep, thanks for helping out :)	00:36
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KotCzarny	and you've learned a bit about your device too	00:39
vectis	always learning. I've remembered how I worked it out. When I tried to apt-get remove libcurl3, hildon-desktop was among the many packages it wanted remove as well	00:45
vectis	so I just copied the libs from the original libcurl back into the system.	00:46
stryngs	Sicelo: Ah, I gotcha. So let me see if I can "breka it down", what I'm trying to accomplish.	00:47
stryngs	Sicelo: So, there exists, in the "Maemo Universe", a wealth of knowledge. DocScrutinizer05 has some, Maxdamantus has some, KotCzarny does, you do, as do I. However, this knowledge, it's not concatenated in one central source, nor is it readily available to those who would seek it out. Best case, they happen to know what to type with infobot, and get lucky when searching for something.	00:49
stryngs	Sicelo: What I would like to do, is culminate this knowledge into one "succint "image" "	00:49
KotCzarny	stryngs, not true	00:50
Sicelo	the problem is not the image though .. so solution is prolly being applied in the wrong place	00:50
stryngs	Sicelo: The idea being that, all a user would need to do; is navigate to maemo.org, click a button and a download would begin. Once the download was complete, the user would decompress the tarball, and then run, one script.	00:50
KotCzarny	see: wiki.maemo.org and talk.maemo.org	00:50
stryngs	Sicelo: That script, would perform changes upon the filesystem layout, preinstalled .debs, etc...	00:50
Sicelo	the knowledge should be catalogued in the wiki .. then those users who need it will use it	00:50
stryngs	Sicelo: Right, but take for instance, CSSU.	00:50
stryngs	Sicelo: Can you right now, as a user, download it 100% offline, and install it 100% offline?	00:51
stryngs	Sicelo: If not, we're doing things the wrong way.	00:51
stryngs	Sicelo: I intend to make it more "Linux Distro" like.	00:51
stryngs	Sicelo: I want to change nothing, but simply add to the abilities of Maemo.	00:51
Ras_Older	I agreed that information should be in wiki and some in forums but I think we are mixing information sources with the Maemo Unified which imo deals with the broken FS	00:51
stryngs	Sicelo: Also, one of the perks, would be a change to the FS layout, in that pymaemo-optify is no longer needed.	00:52
Sicelo	there's no up-to-date distro you can install 100% offline	00:52
KotCzarny	slackware	00:52
stryngs	Sicelo: I don't intend for it to be perfectly 100% up to date.	00:52
stryngs	Sicelo: But, it can be updated to say, July 1st 2015.	00:52
Ras_Older	In other words we need two things: wiki updates & this Unification project for the filesystem clean up	00:52
Ras_Older	Then somebody could figure out how to get rid of opt for good.	00:52
stryngs	Sicelo: Obviously, once they get done installing the image, they would simply perform an apt-get update && apt-get upgrade.	00:52
Sicelo	good luck :)	00:52
stryngs	Sicelo: It's not hard; I myself already have a tarball. What I want and need from the community is feedback and ideas to add to the capabilities of it.	00:53
stryngs	Sicelo: Literally, I can take my tarball, flash my n900 and in about an hour-hour and a half. I'm rocking.	00:53
Ras_Older	When we have wikis = information up-to-date then we can start remodelling the FS fiasco towards reasonable alternatives	00:53
stryngs	Sicelo: I don't need to be online for this either.	00:53
Sicelo	the problem is online vs. offline then?	00:54
stryngs	Sicelo: That's one of them.	00:54
stryngs	Sicelo: There are multiple issues I see from an end-user standpoint.	00:54
stryngs	Sicelo: However, to solve Y and Z, X must first be applied, and X must be agreed upon.	00:54
stryngs	Sicelo: i.e. If you added my repo to your sources.list, and installed the current Metapackages I have. Within moments, your 256MB / NAND would be filled up.	00:55
Sicelo	i don't see them. how many users care or know about FHS, using Debian armel's debs? catalog the info properly on the wiki, put your script there .. and interested parties can use it	00:55
stryngs	Sicelo: So, I intend to create a solution, to where from a fresh flash; the filesystem layout is modified. Whether it be through a full FHS relayout, or through bindmount techniques.	00:55
KotCzarny	sicelo, having everything in one partition is nice	00:56
KotCzarny	think about having fremantle, cssu and cssu-t on one device	00:56
KotCzarny	without conflicts	00:56
stryngs	^	00:56
kerio	the fuck	00:56
KotCzarny	ill do it via different approach though	00:57
Sicelo	22:36 < DocScrutinizer05> I see a lot of enthusiasm and excitement for leete new kernels and swapping around files between NAND, eMMC and possibly even uSD. I'm happy with the way my phone works and I really don't care which kernel runs on it and where the files get stored	00:58
Sicelo	KotCzarny: i agree.	00:58
Sicelo	but does that need an "image"?	00:58
KotCzarny	sicelo, i need an image for quick restore	00:59
KotCzarny	without redownloading the debs	00:59
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Sicelo	debs aren't the problem however, are they? the problem is /opt and other similar Nokia hacks, right? install cssu, run your remap script .. is this not enough?	01:01
KotCzarny	also, most distros do 'snapshots'	01:01
KotCzarny	or 'releases'	01:01
KotCzarny	n900 had last snapshot in 2011	01:01
KotCzarny	and they could've stick to ssu	01:01
stryngs	Sicelo: You can't install cssu and run the script. The script must be run from a fresh flash.	01:01
KotCzarny	yet, they released an image	01:02
Sicelo	snapshot is BM backup? snapshot your own system, that's laid out the way you want, and the way that suits you?	01:02
KotCzarny	sicelo, nope, snapshot as in firmware 1.3.1 etc	01:03
Sicelo	completely offline restore	01:03
stryngs	Sicelo: Well, it's more of a flash to stock, and then modify, and then dpkg a whole bunch of .debs.	01:03
stryngs	Sicelo: But the main benefit, is that even if the internet goes down; I can flash an n900 and bring it up to date without needing the internet.	01:03
Sicelo	anyway, i'm not saying people shouldn't create a master "image"	01:03
stryngs	Sicelo: Also, i understand this won't be something for everyone. I just figure, if I can give back, this is the way to do so. What I need most of all, more than anything, is user feedback and opinions =)	01:04
Sicelo	i just don't see its value so much. rather let's put info where it's accessible for use. e.g. the stuff Maxdamantus is doing is really cool. Wikifying it would be great	01:04
stryngs	Sicelo: "Stryngs, good idea... Stryngs, you're stupid, etc....*	01:04
Sicelo	the base image will also need further package downloads apparently .. in the tmo "unification" thread people are voting for removing nokia-maps from base image. really now? why?	01:08
KotCzarny	one shall never address person in the argument, only the ideas	01:08
KotCzarny	sicelo, its not permanent removal, but i guess its under 1% of n900 owners that use them	01:09
Sicelo	this is just one example .. some of us have very real need for these apparently not-so-important packes	01:09
KotCzarny	and can be downloaded easily	01:09
Sicelo	even FHS compliance is valid for prolly the same 1%	01:09
Ras_Older	Where there is demand there are devs working at it :D	01:10
KotCzarny	also, there could be fremantle-standard-meta package which would install all of those not-in-base	01:10
KotCzarny	its just about having meta that is not depending on everything for everyone	01:10
Sicelo	extra step for the average user. we're making his life difficult is my point	01:10
Sicelo	the geeks among us know what to remove .. wikify, and let them do it themselves.	01:11
KotCzarny	sicelo, see the meta package argument	01:11
KotCzarny	by default it could be installed, its just about deciding what goes to which meta package	01:12
Sicelo	the meta package is an extra install? auto-installs?	01:12
Sicelo	imo this is complicating matters. but yeah, Ras_Older said : Where there is demand there are devs working at it :D	01:13
KotCzarny	anyway, im gonna go different way on my device	01:13
Sicelo	me too	01:13
KotCzarny	dropping optification on the way	01:13
KotCzarny	and using nand only for kernels/rescuefs	01:14
Sicelo	that's also good. :)	01:14
Sicelo	if you document, then anyone else who prefers your way of doing things can follow suit.	01:15
KotCzarny	yes, that's the plan	01:15
KotCzarny	gonna drop the media player and replace it with oscp	01:15
KotCzarny	;)	01:15
Sicelo	is it even removable?	01:16
Ras_Older	I think only of cert OSCP everytime you say that :D	01:16
KotCzarny	sicelo, will be	01:16
Sicelo	i mean media player	01:16
KotCzarny	sicelo, yup	01:16
KotCzarny	will require editing meta package but yes	01:17
kerio	*ocsp	01:18
kerio	"status certificate" doesn't make sense	01:18
Sicelo	in the meantime, prolly the time has come for me to keep my own copy of repos. i hear they aren't too big	01:18
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DocScrutinizer05	ohmy, almost correct, a http://maemo.org/vote/vote.php?election_id=44&email=joerg@openmoko.org&token=XXXXX instead of http://maemo.org/vote/?election_id=44&email=joerg@openmoko.org&token=XXXXX at least would have pointed to the right website and actually filled the email field, fails for token field though	01:36
kerio	rofl	01:37
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kerio	who needs testing and prod	01:37
Sicelo	i wonder why i'm not getting election emails now :D	01:39
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KotCzarny	because person selected to handle that stuff is new AND drunk?	01:40
KotCzarny	can't explain it any other way	01:41
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KotCzarny	oh. i know!	01:41
KotCzarny	it was moved to china, or russia	01:41
KotCzarny	cheaper work labour there :P	01:41
KotCzarny	could explain typos and general fuckups too	01:42
KotCzarny	also, person doing it has access to root on www.maemo.org	01:49
KotCzarny	which isnt a good sign	01:49
KotCzarny	which means backing up wiki.maemo.org and repos isnt such a bad idea	01:49
DocScrutinizer05	meh, techstuff takes care of backups etc	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	warfare is an excellent expert system administrator	01:50
KotCzarny	i hope he has complete backups for every 6 months	01:51
DocScrutinizer05	the above is the result of somebody in council _not_ asking techstuff at large how to do it correctly	01:51
KotCzarny	it isnt the first mc elections	01:51
kerio	yay warfare	01:53
Oksana	Well, the attempts to make personal-ised voting links were being done long ago, and PHP code was put for everybody to see it, and comment on it. I do not recall what kind of testing was done on it, but it was linked to in several meeting minutes in a row, so that anybody would be able to read the code and find bugs.	01:54
* Oksana does not know PHP, unfortunately. Never coded in it		01:54
DocScrutinizer05	last time I managed the election engine, it was cryptic but just worked. Now I read todo points in council meeting minutes that talk about "implementing/fixing automatic election result calculation", something that works by the click of a button last time I had the honor to click that button	01:55
Oksana	Well, it works in some elections, and doesn't work in others. Let me find links... It was not the first time when it refused to auto-calculate, you know	01:56
svetlana	much of php "coding" is monkey copy paste from other parts of code (stealing). this is how I did some django stuff back in the day, and managed to enjoy it	01:56
kerio	django is python	01:56
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DocScrutinizer05	why the heck you need to code anything (no matter python or php or whatever) for conducting a simple election?	01:57
Oksana	Coding was done for personalised link (where vote.php was somehow omitted, if I read backscroll correctly). The glitch with auto-calculation was not figured out, yet, last I heard.	01:58
svetlana	the personalised voting thing with urls is probably working by the way (at least it looks like a reasonable url)	01:58
DocScrutinizer05	aaah ok, I see	01:59
svetlana	not that it does though. it gives me a thing, but when I click 'election', it takes me to a page to enter that info manually	02:00
DocScrutinizer05	alas maybe reasonable but wrong	02:00
Oksana	Hehehe... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94739 The line becomes for example "http://maemo.org/vote/?election_link=41&email=&token=" when it is saved.	02:00
KotCzarny	still, if there is a f*ckup, one should postpone election and retest system, i guess	02:00
Oksana	Meeting held 2015-03-10 on FreeNode ^ Well, svetlana, did you try with vote.php inside URL ?	02:01
DocScrutinizer05	[2015-09-07 Mon 00:36:31] <DocScrutinizer05> ohmy, almost correct, a http://maemo.org/vote/vote.php?election_id=44&email=joerg@openmoko.org&token=XXXXX instead of http://maemo.org/vote/?election_id=44&email=joerg@openmoko.org&token=XXXXX at least would have pointed to the right website and actually filled the email field, fails for token field though	02:01
svetlana	nod	02:02
Oksana	Hey, svetlana, Doc, try: http://maemo.org/vote/vote.php?election_link=44&email=joerg@openmoko.org&token=XXXXX	02:02
Oksana	election_link instead of election_id	02:02
svetlana	that one is okay	02:02
DocScrutinizer05	\o/	02:02
Oksana	Does it work? Does it avoid manual work? Hooray! Now, somebody needs to fix email template! /Thanks for meeting minutes/	02:03
svetlana	failed this time, but it's going to be ok for a next whatever vote we have i guess :)	02:03
DocScrutinizer05	yes	02:03
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svetlana	(i mean people were not sent a working link this time. the election still works)	02:04
Oksana	Email template was absolutely the last part which was put into the personalised-link-coding repository, I remember it	02:04
DocScrutinizer05	wait a minute! what's new in all this so it needs coding? We had emails containing the token and the email addr in message body before, and there's a html interface to edit the template	02:18
KotCzarny	not anymore apparently	02:19
DocScrutinizer05	why would it have vanished?	02:20
* Oksana wonders what is "html interface to edit the template"... HTML interface to edit the email template? Interesting concept...		02:20
KotCzarny	because its incompatible with the new version	02:20
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: which new version?	02:20
Oksana	Gimme HTML interface, I will make it compatible with both new and old versions of email template ?	02:21
KotCzarny	the one that got coded	02:21
DocScrutinizer05	Oksana: a web page with a text input field, much like wiki edit	02:21
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: stop trolling	02:21
KotCzarny	doc: you got me, but there is a high chance of that happening	02:21
DocScrutinizer05	already stop it!	02:22
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DocScrutinizer05	"which water?" "the wet one"	02:22
KotCzarny	virgin water	02:22
DocScrutinizer05	last warning	02:23
KotCzarny	pah	02:23
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DocScrutinizer05	Oksana: you know of http://maemo.org/vote/admin.php do you?	02:26
Oksana	Nay, I did not. Will take a look...	02:27
Oksana	I am probably not an admin. My maemo-garage login-and-password do not let me in	02:28
DocScrutinizer05	http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_team/Creating_an_election	02:31
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DocScrutinizer05	you need an existing admin (or warfare) to create an account for you there	02:36
DocScrutinizer05	election engine admin	02:39
DocScrutinizer05	whatever got hacked on that election engine during last months prolly should get rolled back	02:40
Oksana	What problem? Email template? We could just fix the link to work, instead of rolling back?	02:41
* Oksana will check email and see how badly mangled it is... Did not get to voting, yet		02:41
DocScrutinizer05	err, I have no clue what you did, but there been an interactive userinterface for editing templates that worked	02:42
Oksana	And it doesn't work?	02:42
DocScrutinizer05	we wrote a new template for each vote, bacjk when	02:42
DocScrutinizer05	last I touched it it worked just great	02:43
DocScrutinizer05	please see http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_team/Creating_an_election	02:43
DocScrutinizer05	>>Make/Edit Mail Template<<	02:44
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DocScrutinizer05	>>Compute Results of Vote (Valid on past elections only)<<	02:46
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DocScrutinizer05	it took woody like 4 months to create this awesome interface, it'd be a pity when it gets damaged by editing php code to create a new template	02:50
DocScrutinizer05	or whatever	02:50
Ras_Older	Shame :D I might have been interested working for council but I guess I like my karma points?	02:54
Ras_Older	*lack	02:54
Oksana	Okay... About auto-calculating election results: 29-, 30+, 31+, 32+, 33+, 34-, 35+, 36-, 37+, 38+, 39-, 40ongoing, so it's an old bug. Wish I could figure it out... And yes, if I ever get admin access, I will tread carefully, to see if there is a conflict between mail template and the interface	02:54
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DocScrutinizer05	huh?	02:58
DocScrutinizer05	what the heck are you talking about?	02:59
Oksana	About this: http://maemo.org/vote/votes.php?election_id=39	02:59
DocScrutinizer05	no idea	03:00
DocScrutinizer05	there's no link between what you said and this page	03:00
Oksana	http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=29 http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=34 http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=36 http://maemo.org/vote/votes.php?election_id=39	03:00
DocScrutinizer05	I'm not interested in charade games	03:01
Ras_Older	Is there someway that a lonely helpdesk drone could help out the community? I got exprerience running students unions & the works but would be really internesting participating at counsel too if that is possible	03:02
DocScrutinizer05	you linked to a test vote that obviously never got closed and calculated	03:02
DocScrutinizer05	iirc I created it for testing purposes and for users to 'test' before doing hot voting	03:03
Oksana	I am just trying to understand why some elections have results auto-calculated, why others have only list of ballots, but no auto-calculated results. Like, is it caused by empty ballots, or by number of ballots being less than 100, or what? Okay, so 39 was never closed, but 34 was closed? http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=34	03:03
DocScrutinizer05	39 wasn't even an official election it seems. Prolly you ran this without using the election engine interface	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	"automatic" calculation of results still needs somebody to press the button to start the automatic calculation	03:05
DocScrutinizer05	(39 unofficial) at least I can't find a link to vote 39 in http://maemo.org/vote/	03:06
DocScrutinizer05	34 is the TEST voting I created	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	>>TEST election, works with same token but is moot. For you to play with and practice.<<	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	36: >>Practice (test) election - To practice voting<<	03:08
DocScrutinizer05	29: pre new-interface	03:09
Oksana	Anybody can join in council meetings (once a week if I remember correctly; http://talk.maemo.org/tags.php?tag=meeting+minutes ), edit the wiki ( http://wiki.maemo.org/ ), testing applications ( http://wiki.maemo.org/Testing_Squad ), And old-forgotten http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints#Tasks_sprint_process	03:09
DocScrutinizer05	no idea what they did back when	03:09
DocScrutinizer05	meh	03:10
DocScrutinizer05	afk, getting too involved into that stuff again. I don't care anymore	03:11
Oksana	Okay, so the question is to tell everybody (current council and next council) how to use the proper election engine interface (instead of whatever was used for 39 ), and to check what's happening with mail template and its compatibility with mail-template-editing-interface	03:11
DocScrutinizer05	for sure I'm fed up with "Anybody can..."	03:11
DocScrutinizer05	ooh heck, test.run all at the bottom: 39	03:19
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DocScrutinizer05	bfc why its sorting position is all the way down, below id=1	03:19
DocScrutinizer05	nfc even	03:20
DocScrutinizer05	aiui elections in http://maemo.org/vote/ are supposed to be chronological backwards to the past, most recent one on top	03:21
DocScrutinizer05	prolly somebody ran a test_run without providing any date for the election	03:22
DocScrutinizer05	what still seems to be missing completely: id=40. Maybe a test run somebody actually managed to purge from database after doing it	03:25
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Oksana	Oh, that's a funny one: http://maemo-beagle.garage.maemo.org/ An old ancestor of fptf?	03:56
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Roth	http://i.imgur.com/oQea0S1.jpg	06:30
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Vajb	facebook inbox is not working with QML-browser. Is this known problem? It works with Microb though.	07:03
Vajb	m.facebook.com	07:04
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Roth	Vajb, try touch.facebook.com	07:18
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* stryngs thinks, after reading the chatback, that stryngs for maemo President 2016 =) !		07:34
Vajb	Roth: thx. Will try later.	07:35
Oksana	stryngs: are you the one who wanted to free xchat from scratchbox weirdness? ;-)	07:52
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KotCzarny	yawns	10:12
Oksana	I installed libtool on my N900, and when I try to run libtool, it complains about /scratchbox/tools/bin/sed being not found	10:12
KotCzarny	oksana, sdk dpkg were never meant to be installed on device	10:12
KotCzarny	so dont use that repo	10:13
KotCzarny	if you really must grab some old debian ones	10:13
KotCzarny	s/sdk dpkg/sdk debs/	10:13
KotCzarny	or just compile on device with --prefix=/opt or something	10:16
Oksana	what is libtool for? It looks like super-weird wrapper. libtool --mode=execute somecommand	10:16
KotCzarny	more like for repackaging libs	10:17
KotCzarny	GNU libtool is a generic library support script. Libtool hides the complexity of using shared libraries behind a consistent, portable interface.	10:17
KotCzarny	http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/html_node/Introduction.html#Introduction	10:18
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Oksana	Weird... It's in Extras repository, too, not only in SDK repository. http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras_free_armel/libtool/1.5.26-3maemo1/	10:21
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KotCzarny	then check where your's came from	10:23
KotCzarny	apt-cache policy libtool	10:23
KotCzarny	and that could mean someone just put sdk's one into extras	10:23
Oksana	apt-cache policy libtool lists both device repository and sdk repository, and version numbers are same. How to figure it out?	10:26
KotCzarny	disable sdk repo, apt-get update, apt-get install --reinstall libtool	10:27
KotCzarny	or even without --reinstall	10:27
KotCzarny	and as i said, you shouldnt use sdk repo on device	10:27
Oksana	From apt-cache show libtool, the MD5Sum matches the one in Extras repository. And yes, will disable SDK repository	10:27
KotCzarny	then most likely someone just grabbed sdk libtool and just upped it to extras-devel without checking patches and control	10:28
Oksana	Likely. Exactly same changelog	10:29
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Oksana	But how did it go from extras-devel to extras...	10:30
KotCzarny	it needs only 10 people to push it through	10:31
KotCzarny	no testing team available	10:31
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Oksana	Okay, posted a comment. Will the maintainer be notified, or should I email him? /looks like making xchat compile on-device requires taking care of libtool, first/	10:34
KotCzarny	pity state of extras is most people who uploaded there just moved on	10:35
KotCzarny	and are not available	10:35
KotCzarny	and what's even worse, even maintainer changing requests are hanging around without action	10:35
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Oksana	Well, if he still checks his ovi.com email... Also, could hope it's same person: http://talk.maemo.org/member.php?u=29784	10:37
KotCzarny	that one could be active luckily	10:37
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DocScrutinizer05	yeah, nobody handling maintainer requests is a huge PITA	15:26
DocScrutinizer05	possibly the emails don't reach anybody meanwhile	15:27
KotCzarny	who is responsible for extras and repos as a whole?	15:27
DocScrutinizer05	good question. Finally Hildon foundation and Council	15:28
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KotCzarny	good thing to solve for new council for a start	15:29
KotCzarny	i could offer myself as a maintaner requests maintainer	15:29
bencoh	I think mer.lin still handles extras account creation	15:31
bencoh	at least he took care of mine a year ago	15:32
KotCzarny	merlin1991: ping	15:32
bencoh	(s/account creation/extras upload privs/)	15:32
DocScrutinizer05	there's http://maemo.org/packages/maintainer/pending/ which isn't about account creation	15:54
DocScrutinizer05	and I'm going to grant maintainership for those 5 pending there	15:55
KotCzarny	Error 500	15:56
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DocScrutinizer05	asked 6 times during last 3 weeks who's taking care.	15:59
DocScrutinizer05	when somebody has concerns about one of those maintainership-approvals, they can revert it any time	16:00
KotCzarny	how about automated system which send email to current maintainer on requests for change, then after 3 times not responding in 2 weeks it automatically grants it to new user	16:00
DocScrutinizer05	this is not about new users	16:01
KotCzarny	but if current maintainer clicks the link, request gets cleared	16:01
KotCzarny	new user as old user wanting take over package maintainership	16:01
KotCzarny	s/as /as in /	16:01
infobot	KotCzarny meant: new user as in old user wanting take over package maintainership	16:01
KotCzarny	it could also get a blacklist of packages that would be excluded from this automatic changer	16:03
DocScrutinizer05	or somebody invests 5% of the time needed to implement such stuff to simply manually check and process those 1 request per month	16:04
DocScrutinizer05	0.5%	16:04
KotCzarny	as we currently see, there is no one at the moment	16:04
DocScrutinizer05	so?	16:05
bencoh	no one for?	16:05
KotCzarny	for position of maintaining package maintainership requests	16:06
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DocScrutinizer05	warfare probably needs to update the mail aliases anyway soonish, maybe he could add a few council members to garage@maemo.org or whatever the relevant alias	16:14
DocScrutinizer05	I bet a catchall for *@m.o would see a LOT of mail that doesn't get processed anymore since nobody got alias assigned	16:15
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DocScrutinizer05	I personally had ~ 10 aliases I handled before I asked for my complete removal from aliases list	16:17
DocScrutinizer05	basically this all is council's job	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	to assign responsibilities and track them	16:18
KotCzarny	are they paid?	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	no, and nobody of users understands what they are really voting for in council elections.	16:19
DocScrutinizer05	not even council candidates understand what's council's duties	16:19
KotCzarny	:)	16:19
KotCzarny	maybe it shouldnt be called council but head maemo team members	16:20
erlehmann	who is the council?	16:21
bencoh	"who"?	16:22
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DocScrutinizer05	/topic	16:34
DocScrutinizer05	my gosh, maemo.org down?	16:34
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, only 60s until http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council loads	16:35
DocScrutinizer05	awesome: Current: October 2014 - May 2015	16:36
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DocScrutinizer05	hmm, load patterns as shown by monitor don't look too good	16:43
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shapeshifter	Hi. I want to revive my N900 and use it as my main phone again. But I first want to wipe everything and start fresh. I remember I tried this a year ago but I ran into lots of problems, like the repositories not being available anymore etc. Does someone know a compact, up-to-date guide on how to setup the phone so that everything works?	17:03
KotCzarny	~flashing	17:03
infobot	well, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh	17:03
KotCzarny	~maemo-repos	17:03
infobot	maemo-repos is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories	17:03
shapeshifter	# nokia is no more, anyone knows a mirror?	17:04
shapeshifter	oh diablo, not relevant.	17:04
shapeshifter	So we have to rely on an unofficial mirror these days?	17:05
KotCzarny	only for nokia closed binaries	17:05
shapeshifter	I see	17:05
KotCzarny	which are only required if you manage to break them	17:05
KotCzarny	just flash 1.3.1, optionally enable cssu and you are good	17:06
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DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: !!!!! \o/ WELCOME BACK!! :-)))	17:15
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: sup :)	17:15
shapeshifter	I'm so sick of my Android cell...	17:15
KotCzarny	:>	17:15
DocScrutinizer05	hehehehe	17:15
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: for easy replashing go for http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	then head to	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	~repos	17:16
infobot	from memory, repos is "deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ ;; deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/mr0/ ./", or see http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories	17:16
KotCzarny	it's still on the screen, pah	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	then	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	~cssu	17:16
infobot	i guess cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)	17:16
DocScrutinizer05	this should leave you settled	17:17
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shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: thanks.	17:17
DocScrutinizer05	yw	17:17
DocScrutinizer05	:)	17:17
shapeshifter	charging the battery now. I'll probably need a new one.	17:17
DocScrutinizer05	quite possible	17:18
shapeshifter	luckily there's a nice test on the forums	17:18
DocScrutinizer05	...after a 5 years	17:18
KotCzarny	~polarcell	17:18
infobot	[polarcell] http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390402445382 BL-5J Replacement	17:18
KotCzarny	just in case	17:18
DocScrutinizer05	yup	17:18
shapeshifter	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65568	17:19
DocScrutinizer05	though I used to buy "used" ones in my next turkish cellphone shopee	17:19
shapeshifter	wow, that polarcell is cheap	17:20
shapeshifter	I once bought an original nokia battery. super expensive.	17:20
KotCzarny	but originals last a long time too	17:20
DocScrutinizer05	alas I didn't mark the batteries I received over the years. So I must have a 70 batteries now, of which 55 or 60 are dead, and another 5 to 10 are very poor condition, and I can't say which is which	17:20
KotCzarny	at least they used to	17:20
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: don't spend more than 15 bucks for any battery!	17:21
DocScrutinizer05	...for N900	17:21
DocScrutinizer05	genuine original Nokia are expensive, when sold via official Nokia channels	17:21
DocScrutinizer05	suuuper expensive	17:22
KotCzarny	and bl-5j have 1430 cap now	17:22
DocScrutinizer05	like 40 EUR or somesuch iirc	17:22
DocScrutinizer05	I gues a few of the cheap "genuine Nokia BL-5J" sold cheap on ebay etc are actually that, genuine Nokia (or ghostshift)	17:23
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shapeshifter	Imagine if the neo900 project had stored donations in CHF in switzerland...	17:24
DocScrutinizer05	hehe	17:25
shapeshifter	what a tragic impact the euro dip had on finances.	17:25
DocScrutinizer05	meh, those donations are a feeble 4k USD iirc	17:25
shapeshifter	mh.	17:25
DocScrutinizer05	honestly not really worth all the hassle they are doing about it	17:26
DocScrutinizer05	particularly since all infra is donated and thus zilch recurring expense	17:26
DocScrutinizer05	btw...	17:27
DocScrutinizer05	warfare: did council/HiFo manage to negotiate contract extension with IPHH?	17:27
DocScrutinizer05	is that even needed?	17:28
erlehmann	how much did it dip?	17:28
DocScrutinizer05	dip?`	17:28
shapeshifter	erlehmann: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=eur%20vs%20usd&meta=&gws_rd=ssl	17:29
DocScrutinizer05	ooh	17:29
shapeshifter	erlehmann: used to be 1.30-1.40, now ~1.10	17:29
DocScrutinizer05	which had a very unfortunate impact on Neo900 calculations	17:30
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erlehmann	DocScrutinizer05 can you elaborate „very unfortunate impact“ ?	17:31
DocScrutinizer05	for USD the price tag stayed stable basically	17:31
DocScrutinizer05	EUR price rised by 30%	17:31
DocScrutinizer05	even a tad more	17:31
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shapeshifter	erlehmann: donations are kept in EUR. Chinese suppliers are paid in USD.	17:31
erlehmann	top lel	17:32
DocScrutinizer05	our early estimations were ~700, now we're at 990	17:32
erlehmann	well, transfer donations to USD asap?	17:32
shapeshifter	it's a bit late.	17:32
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shapeshifter	no telling what the future holds	17:32
shapeshifter	EUR could even recuperate given that the china crash is pressing USD down.	17:33
DocScrutinizer05	sure, transfer to the stronges currency always, then wait for that currency going down ;-)	17:33
KotCzarny	eu as a whole is in the hard times	17:33
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: exactly	17:33
erlehmann	i see	17:33
DocScrutinizer05	we received all payments in EUR, we will keep it like that, particularly now that EUR is weak and can only gain value	17:34
KotCzarny	not true	17:34
KotCzarny	it can dip more	17:34
DocScrutinizer05	yes, can hapen too, but who knows	17:35
KotCzarny	europe has more and more problems pending	17:35
DocScrutinizer05	US and China too	17:35
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: Is there a tentative release date for the Neo900?	17:35
DocScrutinizer05	q1/2016	17:35
erlehmann	ok	17:35
shapeshifter	It's amazing how hard and expensive it is to get this phone off the ground.	17:36
DocScrutinizer05	yes	17:36
DocScrutinizer05	not really, for 'us' few who did it before	17:36
DocScrutinizer05	we knew what is waiting for us	17:36
shapeshifter	Plus I'm amazed that even after all the recent revelations, there doesn't seem to be a concious shift in perception of Android. I mean, there should be thousands of nerds around the world interested in an open phone, yet there is basically no activity, no support.	17:37
erlehmann	those people are not really interested	17:37
DocScrutinizer05	what I didn't expect was e.g. 3 months of fighting with prestashop, until we get a cheesy lil shoppee working	17:37
shapeshifter	I wonder for example how the fairphone managed to gain traction. I mean, they say "if you can't open it you don't own it" but of course that's only concerning the hardware, not the software.	17:37
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: what were the major problems with prestashop?	17:38
erlehmann	shapeshifter i have a friend who said he wanted an open phone, then i pointed him here, then he said it was too expensive. he then got a blackberry and after that, an iphone i think.	17:38
erlehmann	go figure	17:38
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm :-)	17:38
shapeshifter	erlehmann: well 1000 euros is a bit steep, especially considering the innards.	17:38
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erlehmann	shapeshifter it is, but OTOH there seems to be no comparable new phone. is there?	17:39
shapeshifter	erlehmann: nothing.	17:39
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: (prestashop) it's soooOOOooo WAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! To edit text, you need to do that in translations	17:39
KotCzarny	n900	17:39
DocScrutinizer05	you never know in which translations	17:39
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DocScrutinizer05	it's a CMS nightmare	17:40
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: I'm currently setting up a Spree shop. I wonder how hard it will be. So far... meh.	17:40
KotCzarny	creating custom shop is easy	17:41
KotCzarny	especially if your store isnt big	17:41
* Wizzup wrote his own some time ago		17:41
DocScrutinizer05	prolly would have been easier than that prestashop thing	17:41
shapeshifter	well that's hardly necessary though.	17:41
KotCzarny	yup, new revisions of ready made products are usually on the incompatible side	17:41
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: which payment gateway are you using?	17:41
DocScrutinizer05	bank wire, PP	17:42
DocScrutinizer05	soon bitcoin	17:42
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KotCzarny	shapeshifter: by any chance you are using n900 for music listening?	17:43
shapeshifter	KotCzarny: not much	17:44
KotCzarny	uhum	17:44
KotCzarny	i wont solicite then	17:44
KotCzarny	:)	17:44
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shapeshifter	I remember I kept having a problem with my old N900 that it would says "no sim". I just googled a bit but I can't find a definitive fix. I remember something about pressing down on the PCB...	17:56
KotCzarny	um	17:56
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KotCzarny	physical breakage	17:56
KotCzarny	but there is hope, you can have another n900 for a measly 40-50usd	17:56
KotCzarny	even cheaper if you can solder usb port	17:57
KotCzarny	then you can grab one really cheap	17:57
KotCzarny	and use old one for development test bed	17:57
shapeshifter	I have 2. I need to check if they both exhibit this problem.	17:57
shapeshifter	I preemptively soldered the USB on both	17:57
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stryngs	Oksana: I can show you workarounds for stuff like the sb issues you mentioned.	18:05
shapeshifter	$ ip a # -sh: ip: not found	18:10
shapeshifter	a reminder how old maemo really is.	18:10
stryngs	Oksana: Are you looking for xchat 2.8.8?	18:13
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* stryngs builds xchat for the giggles		18:23
stryngs	Man I wish gcc 4.6 wasn't all crazy on the n900 =/	18:27
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shapeshifter	stryngs: why not cross compile on a 'real' machine?	18:28
stryngs	shapeshifter: I prefer to build natively.	18:28
stryngs	shapeshifter: I've taken a lot of care to ensure I can build natively on my box.	18:28
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stryngs	shapeshifter: i.e., grabbed a lot of scratchbox stuff and ported it over, etc.. Very handy =)	18:29
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Sicelo	KotCzarny: how goes with 2nd N900? :)	18:49
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: the versions used in your flash-it-all.sh, are those the most recent ones?	18:53
KotCzarny	sicelo: still in transit, should be there in 1-2 days	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: yes	18:54
DocScrutinizer05	(on "most recent")	18:56
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DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: (no SIM) is usually a problem with modem chip solder points popping up when bending the PCB - e.g. due to pressing the kbd keys - and all the suggested mechanical fixes are not really a long term solution. hot-air reflowing the modem chips might help: heat the complete device to 100°C in oven, then apply 230°C hot air to the modem chips for 5 minutes	18:58
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DocScrutinizer05	250°C will prolly kill the device, so use decent tools	18:59
DocScrutinizer05	well, maybe 5 minutes is a tad long. Try 2 minutes	19:00
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Tekk_	shapeshifter: personally I'd just suggest popping the back off, taking the sim out, and resitting it before you try something so extreme	19:03
Tekk_	sometimes a bit of dirt just gets between the contacts for me	19:03
Tekk_	But presumably you've already ruled that out :)	19:03
shapeshifter	thanks, I might try something like that.	19:04
shapeshifter	I need a hot air gun...	19:05
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shapeshifter	by the way, how's maemo 5 holding up in terms of security? Digicert hack, heartbleed, shellshock - are things even patched?	19:07
KotCzarny	hehe, security and n900 used in one sentence	19:10
KotCzarny	good joke	19:10
KotCzarny	:)	19:10
Tekk_	shapeshifter: well the good news is that I'm pretty sure that maemo's openssl is actually too old to be vulnerable to heartbleed	19:11
erlehmann	yeah	19:11
erlehmann	that i found funny	19:11
shapeshifter	^	19:11
shapeshifter	^^	19:11
erlehmann	^^^	19:11
shapeshifter	vvv	19:11
KotCzarny	<<>>	19:12
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shapeshifter	but yeah. and busybox means no shellshock. I think I remember some talk about removing the invalid CAs.	19:12
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KotCzarny	still, we are running old kernel	19:13
KotCzarny	which means anything kernel related holds	19:13
Tekk_	mhm	19:13
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shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: why is your flasher called trasher? it's a joke?	19:16
shapeshifter	s	19:17
shapeshifter	oops.	19:17
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erlehmann	KotCzarny where to get new kernel	19:22
stryngs	shapeshifter: Maemo is very vuln.	19:24
KotCzarny	http://elinux.org/N900	19:25
KotCzarny	but its not drop in replacement	19:25
KotCzarny	also, someone recently started another attempt at updated os	19:27
KotCzarny	i think it was wizzup	19:27
Tekk_	How'd the neo900 thing go btw?	19:27
KotCzarny	(i'll do the same once my secondary n900 arrives)	19:27
Tekk_	wish I had the money to pledge back when it was running its kickstarter :/	19:27
shapeshifter	boo, maemo flasher is 32bit.	19:28
erlehmann	shapeshifter what about 0xffff?	19:28
KotCzarny	install 32bit libs or boot livecd	19:28
shapeshifter	KotCzarny: yeah.	19:28
* KotCzarny is still running 32bit linux		19:29
shapeshifter	KotCzarny: wow.	19:29
KotCzarny	no need to upgrade	19:29
KotCzarny	and easier to keep one version across all my machines	19:29
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DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: (trasher) I needed a name that not suspicious (to googling)	19:39
KotCzarny	thrasher	19:39
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: note that this is my private workdir not supposed to get shared to anybody else anyway	19:39
DocScrutinizer05	;-)	19:39
KotCzarny	you should add feature to flasher that it would play data on audio device during reflash	19:39
KotCzarny	similar to old modem sounds	19:40
Vajb	i tried touch.facebook.com in Qml-browser. Got: error on line 1 at column 715: Expected '#' or '[a-zA-Z]', but got '&'.	19:40
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shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: yes, I saw the notice ;)	19:40
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shapeshifter	everything is so old... flasher needs 32bit libusb-0.1.so4. The version provided by my distro is libusb-1.0...	19:46
shapeshifter	just symlinking doesn't work. symbol lookup errors.	19:46
shapeshifter	now I have to dig up an old libusb	19:46
stryngs	shapeshifter: libusb-1.0-0:i386 works just fine	19:48
stryngs	fyi	19:48
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shapeshifter	stryngs: not for me... anyway I found an old lib and it appears to be working now.	19:49
stryngs	shapeshifter: Heh, what distro?	19:50
stryngs	shapeshifter: That doesnt "seem" right that it wouldnt work.	19:50
shapeshifter	stryngs: Arch. I don't know. I got /usr/lib32/libusb-1.0.so.0.1.0 giving me maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5: symbol lookup error: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2/flasher-3.5: undefined symbol: usb_init	19:51
stryngs	shapeshifter: meh, arch...	19:52
shapeshifter	stryngs: it has hardly anything to do with the distro.	19:52
stryngs	shapeshifter: With Arch? hah.	19:52
stryngs	shapeshifter: I've heard nothing but bad bout arch	19:52
stryngs	shapeshifter: I'll stick with the red hats or fedoras or centos or ubuntu or linux mint's	19:53
shapeshifter	ok.	19:53
stryngs	shapeshifter: But, glad to hear u got it working	19:53
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shapeshifter	wat. I just reflashed my N900 and now, suddenly, it knows the correct date after booting for the first time. >.>	19:55
KotCzarny	shapeshifter: you need libusb-0.1	19:55
shapeshifter	I always had to set it manually	19:55
shapeshifter	what black magic is this.	19:55
Tekk_	shapeshifter: it's weird like that	19:55
Tekk_	sometimes I need to reset the date, sometimes not	19:55
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shapeshifter	this is adorable, it's recommending the Ovi store "with hundreds of free apps and games".	19:56
KotCzarny	i just use ntpdate pool.ntp.org	19:57
Tekk_	KotCzarny: no, that's different	19:57
KotCzarny	for ovi you need to enable muarf repo	19:57
Tekk_	or do you mean you just hit accept?	19:57
KotCzarny	tekk_: i know, i disabled welcome sscreen and just run ntpdate occasionally	19:57
Tekk_	ah	19:58
Tekk_	why not use the checkbox that pulls the time from the cell network?	19:58
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KotCzarny	cellular time never worked for me	19:58
KotCzarny	dont know why	19:58
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shapeshifter	So the app manager doesn't get it when I just update /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list?	20:10
KotCzarny	go cssu and install speedyham	20:10
KotCzarny	~speedyham	20:10
infobot	speedyham is probably 30 times faster than HAM http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-devel/pool/free/h/hildon-application-manager/hildon-application-manager_2.2.73-2_armel.deb	20:10
KotCzarny	if you dont want cssu, then ignore app manager and just stick to apt	20:10
KotCzarny	(just never do apt-get autoremove or upgrade)	20:11
KotCzarny	though you seem knowledgeable, so upgrade might be fine, distupgrade is tricky tho	20:12
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Sicelo	but yes, you need to adjust catalogs/repositories from HAM itself.	20:19
KotCzarny	ham sucks	20:20
KotCzarny	slowly sucks	20:22
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shapeshifter	Any specific reasons why CSSU stable is 1y behind testing?	20:41
KotCzarny	no testers?	20:41
KotCzarny	no reports?	20:41
KotCzarny	no one nagged the devs to do the release?	20:41
KotCzarny	most of work is in devel anyway	20:41
shapeshifter	KotCzarny: in devel?	20:43
KotCzarny	yeah	20:43
KotCzarny	cssu-devel	20:43
KotCzarny	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84292	20:43
KotCzarny	warning: dragons ahead	20:44
Sicelo	manpower is one of the reasons	20:45
KotCzarny	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1477898&postcount=453	20:45
Sicelo	i remember discussions to drop stable .. not sure how far they went.	20:46
KotCzarny	o.O	20:46
KotCzarny	thats just crazy talk	20:46
KotCzarny	stable is for normal users that dont want untested things	20:46
Sicelo	looks like most testing takes place in devel ..	20:47
Sicelo	testing is already quite stable, in general	20:47
shapeshifter	so you're telling me that with that devel repo, people do apt-get upgrade?	20:47
KotCzarny	rename testing as stable then and drop testing	20:48
Sicelo	:)	20:48
Sicelo	KotCzarny: same thing .. just names.	20:48
Sicelo	so yes, that's a possibility	20:48
KotCzarny	names are important for non-knowledgeable people	20:48
Sicelo	shapeshifter: yes. why not? :)	20:49
Sicelo	i've done it a couple of times	20:50
Sicelo	last time i did .. got some getbootstate error (device behaving as if R&D mode is on). reported it, and problemo fixed	20:51
KotCzarny	hmm	20:56
KotCzarny	i wonder if there is a mod that would replace all images with 8bit ones in a browser/cache	20:56
KotCzarny	and make browser use 8bit buffers	20:56
KotCzarny	(for rendered pages)	20:57
KotCzarny	https://www.palemoon.org/	20:59
KotCzarny	hum	20:59
KotCzarny	doh, cant wait for my secondary n900	21:02
KotCzarny	its like getting the first one	21:02
KotCzarny	Any Gecko based browser works, you can set the amount of RAM which is allowed to be used to render websites in about:config.	21:05
KotCzarny	hum	21:05
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KotCzarny	another hack would be limiting browser to only 1 page rendered at any given time	21:07
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KotCzarny	http://www.netsurf-browser.org/about/	21:13
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KotCzarny	another competitor	21:13
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KotCzarny	drat. 1-2days is a lot when one has to wait	21:15
shapeshifter	Is it not necessary anymore to move some stuff to /opt?	21:16
KotCzarny	it is	21:17
KotCzarny	but i plan on creating everything-in-one-partition os	21:17
KotCzarny	do df	21:17
KotCzarny	see space on /	21:17
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shapeshifter	I see	21:27
shapeshifter	Is there a good reason why https://wiki.maemo.org/Free_up_rootfs_space#Move_apt_cache_outside_of_rootfs is advertised as a temporary fix? It would be trivial to permanently set the cache location in apt.conf	21:28
KotCzarny	remember that wiki information isnt any omega knowledge but users hacking their way	21:31
KotCzarny	i personally use: http://wiki.maemo.org/Slimming_OS	21:31
KotCzarny	best course of action is simply knowing what you are doing	21:32
KotCzarny	what you use, what you dont use etc	21:32
KotCzarny	as for your question, it uses -o option, which you can just put in /etc/apt config	21:33
KotCzarny	thats why it says 'temporary', as in one-off	21:33
KotCzarny	but i think apt-cache is already on /opt	21:34
KotCzarny	ls -l /var/apt/	21:34
DocScrutinizer05	((<Sicelo> looks like most testing takes place in devel .. )) no	21:35
shapeshifter	I see	21:35
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: NEVER do apt-get upgrade with maemo-devel!	21:35
shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer05: I'm just using cssu testing now	21:36
DocScrutinizer05	actually s/with maemo-devel//	21:36
DocScrutinizer05	shapeshifter: you're supposed to use maemo-extras-devel only to manually install certain packages, then immediately disable maemo-extras-devel again after you did	21:37
shapeshifter	I see.	21:38
Sicelo	DocScrutinizer05: it's definitely not supposed to be that way .. but .. it does. many are on cssu-testing not for testing, but consider it stable quality. i'm not saying this is correct ... but that's the general feel you get when you see state of things in tmo	21:38
shapeshifter	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95911 poor fella	21:41
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juliank	What's going on the N900 these days?	21:56
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* juliank put it to rest in 2012		21:57
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DocScrutinizer05	Sicelo: please don't mix maemo-extras-testing and cssu-testing	21:59
DocScrutinizer05	cssu-devel is a complete nogo for anybody but the devels testing their own packaging there	22:00
DocScrutinizer05	cssu-testing is supposed to be semi-satble but with the risk that stuff will break your device. Once it got tested in cssu-testing, it eventually migrates to cssu-stable, after some of the cssu maintainers discussed stability of the package	22:01
DocScrutinizer05	maemo-extras-devel has a lot of packages, some good stable quality and some being real killers for your system. extras-testing is where a test crew of users checks packages that got promoted by their developers	22:03
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DocScrutinizer05	when a package passes testing, it promotrs to maemo-extras	22:03
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KotCzarny	juliank: check oscp	22:04
* Vajb wishes that he could get a dollar everytime he see's oscp mentioned ;)		22:06
KotCzarny	doc: no, when dev coerces 10 users to click on package promotion then it goes to maemo-extras	22:06
KotCzarny	vajb: i can do 1cent	22:06
KotCzarny	:)	22:06
Vajb	haha	22:06
Vajb	hmm now i need counter script :p	22:07
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KotCzarny	vajb: good, now you have a homework :P	22:07
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: no, it gets promoted when it got enough thumbs up	22:07
Sicelo	KotCzarny: how many are you at now?	22:08
DocScrutinizer05	honestly, why you saying "no2 when you then post exactly what I said before?	22:08
KotCzarny	doc: you've just used different words	22:08
Vajb	actually im thinking that it would be cool if irssi could pop up that yellow notify window too. So i will try to accomplish that when i find some time.	22:08
KotCzarny	vajb: /exec ?	22:08
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: no, I just used different words	22:08
Vajb	yes and some dbus stuff too	22:09
KotCzarny	but doable anyway	22:09
KotCzarny	doc: extras-testing voting doesnt work (userbase wise)	22:09
Sicelo	Vajb: get irssi that supports perl scripts .. dunno if someone put it on repos, but i did compile one and dropped it in tmo a while back	22:09
Vajb	yes i suppose so. I just need to go by trial and error till i got it	22:10
KotCzarny	doc: can you get stats of 10 packages promoted in the last 6 months?	22:10
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: aha	22:10
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: sorry, I don't see your point and i'm too busy to try and find out	22:10
Sicelo	KotCzarny: i would guess Yappari	22:10
Vajb	Sicelo: actually u and i had this convo wayyyy back and then u posted link for it in maemo and im having it since ;)	22:10
Sicelo	:)	22:12
KotCzarny	http://repository.maemo.org/extras/pool/fremantle/free/y/yappari/	22:12
KotCzarny	last voted release: 18-dec 2014	22:12
KotCzarny	so no, not the last 6 months	22:12
KotCzarny	http://repository.maemo.org/extras-testing/pool/fremantle/free/y/yappari/	22:13
KotCzarny	last release: 3-sep-2015	22:13
DocScrutinizer05	so what?	22:13
KotCzarny	so yappari is popular package, but no one votes?	22:13
DocScrutinizer05	so what?	22:13
Sicelo	gawd.	22:13
KotCzarny	see 'broken userbase wise'	22:13
DocScrutinizer05	YOU are the broken userbase	22:13
KotCzarny	im not userbase, im a dev	22:14
KotCzarny	doc: i see why you were 'bullied', YOU are the bully	22:14
Vajb	im broken user	22:14
kerio	Vajb: :(	22:15
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: you really fail completely to make any point	22:15
DocScrutinizer05	instead you try to correct me when I explain how promoting works	22:16
DocScrutinizer05	promoting is NOT broken for all I can tell	22:16
DocScrutinizer05	if your point is that there are not enough testers, then ... well, do something about it, become a tester.	22:17
DocScrutinizer05	instead of claiming obscure stuff like 'broken userbase wise'	22:18
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KotCzarny	im a dev, not a tester	22:18
Sicelo	Vajb: broken user :D	22:18
DocScrutinizer05	KotCzarny: then you got a problem	22:18
KotCzarny	also, are you a tester?	22:19
Wizzup	guys	22:19
Wizzup	come on :)	22:19
DocScrutinizer05	are you able to find that out by yourself, or just trolling?	22:19
DocScrutinizer05	if you have to make a point, please already do!	22:20
KotCzarny	my point is that we dont have active testers	22:20
juliank	So, the Neo900 stuff will cost 990 EUR before taxes?	22:20
juliank	that's insane	22:21
DocScrutinizer05	currently that's our estimation. subject to change when situation changes, to the worse (hardly) or the better (hopefully)	22:21
DocScrutinizer05	uhuh, how's that insane?	22:22
juliank	That's a huge amount of money	22:22
freemangordon	KotCzarny: could it be because whatsapp inc changes the protocol every other day? so there is no point in promoting yappari to stable?	22:22
DocScrutinizer05	N900 cisted ~600EUR, Neo900 has faster CPU, 4 times the RAM, 2 times the eMMC (64GB), LTE or UMTS+CDMA2000 modem, and a host of sensors	22:23
freemangordon	not to say it is not mass-produced	22:23
* Wizzup is already convinced :-)		22:23
Ras_Older	juliank: that is what happens when you build "limited edition" devices that aren't mass produced by giant manufacturers	22:23
juliank	Ras_Older: I know	22:24
DocScrutinizer05	hi freemangordon, long time no see :-D	22:24
freemangordon	hi!	22:24
Ras_Older	Then how is it insane?	22:24
juliank	Hey, it's still a lot of money.	22:24
Ras_Older	Makes perfect sense to me to cover expenses	22:24
juliank	It's cool insane.	22:24
freemangordon	yeah, unfortunately I am very busy with the RL :(	22:24
DocScrutinizer05	eeew	22:24
DocScrutinizer05	hope that inproves eventually, we miss you :-)	22:25
freemangordon	hopefully will have more free time in a couple of weeks	22:25
DocScrutinizer05	:-))	22:25
* juliank won't buy it, but I'm sure the buyer's will have fun with it		22:26
freemangordon	also, I've been on a holiday :)	22:26
KotCzarny	freemangordon: that's why i propose allowing package maintainers to promote packages when they want assuming they got promoted particular package at least once	22:26
DocScrutinizer05	juliank: we'd love to make the device cheaper, and we really strive to - but there's just so much that can get done, without sacrificu´ing a _lot_ of the awesomeness of the product	22:26
Wizzup	KotCzarny: that kind of defeats stable but yeah	22:27
freemangordon	KotCzarny: doesn't make sense	22:27
juliank	DocScrutinizer05: Yeah, I moved on anyway, and have to live in Androidworld.	22:27
Sicelo	KotCzarny: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_non-free_armel/oscp/0.9.7-46/ .. how come i don't see a voting/thumbs up button on yours?	22:27
freemangordon	KotCzarny: also, repo admins can do it right now	22:27
KotCzarny	sicelo: i've tried to promote only once	22:28
juliank	Android is so primitive in some places, compared to Maemo	22:28
KotCzarny	5 people clicked, even if there are quite a bunch of users of it	22:28
DocScrutinizer05	Sicelo: he's no tester ;-P	22:28
Sicelo	where's the button? i can see it for yappari .. but not on oscp	22:28
KotCzarny	because yappari 2.0.15 was promoted to testing	22:29
freemangordon	this is not extras-testing	22:29
Sicelo	ah, i see	22:29
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freemangordon	KotCzarny: what is the point to allow package maintainers to promote to stable? You say you-re not a tester, which means all the likes will promote untested software to extras-stable	22:30
DocScrutinizer05	freemangordon: nevermind	22:31
freemangordon	then we can remove all but extras-devel repo, if the quality of the SW will be on that level	22:31
Sicelo	how does s/w move from extras-devel to extras-testing?	22:31
freemangordon	it is maintainer to promote it	22:31
DocScrutinizer05	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/oscp/0.9.7-26/	22:31
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Sicelo	ah .. he needs 5 more kudos	22:32
freemangordon	yes, because it is non-free, the free section was relaxed to 6	22:32
Sicelo	i was about to ask that. thanks for info freemangordon :)	22:33
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freemangordon	well, I'd rather guess that when free was changed, noone has thought there will be new SW in non-free :)	22:34
freemangordon	so it was left as it is	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	testing non-free is hard	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	so it needs more tests	22:34
KotCzarny	freemangordon: it would allow maintainer to decide if package is stable (which also meant maintainer would have to test it)	22:35
freemangordon	but it cannot assure that the maintainer has actually tested it. You know what speedpatch is?	22:35
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freemangordon	~speedpatch	22:35
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, speedpatch is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1012405#post1012405 >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch], or http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1328060&postcount=3325 [bug report]	22:35
Sicelo	haha .. miracle patch	22:36
Sicelo	:D	22:36
freemangordon	not that the 3-layered repose prevented speedpatch from entering repos, but still	22:36
freemangordon	*repos	22:36
freemangordon	damn :(	22:36
freemangordon	I meant: not that the 3-layered repos prevented speedpatch from entering stable, but still	22:37
DocScrutinizer05	yes, because too many "testers" thought this is about sympathy and doing someone a favor	22:38
KotCzarny	i have to agree with that	22:39
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DocScrutinizer05	there urgently needs http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing link get added to all pages in http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/, right nect to the voting-thumb button	22:40
DocScrutinizer05	particularly http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing#Vote_on_Packages_waiting_to_be_evaluated	22:41
DocScrutinizer05	and http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing#Quality_Assurance_criteria ff	22:41
freemangordon	or maybe on the first page of TMO	22:41
DocScrutinizer05	and http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing/QA_checklist	22:42
KotCzarny	freemangordon: yeah, i know crappatch, never used it	22:42
KotCzarny	reading its tmo thread was hilarious tho	22:43
freemangordon	KotCzarny: the point is - without devel->testing->stable, it will be much more easier for the script-kiddies to put junk in -stable	22:43
freemangordon	KotCzarny: also, being a dev you should know that the developer is the worst QA possible. For a number of reasons :)	22:44
KotCzarny	true that, unfortunatelly	22:47
KotCzarny	freemangordon: another idea, dev karma	22:48
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DocScrutinizer05	we already have that, sort of. We have user karma from testing, and we got power testers that have triple-voice	22:49
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DocScrutinizer05	iirc	22:49
KotCzarny	cool	22:49
freemangordon	the problem is that those with high karma from testing have moved on long ago	22:50
freemangordon	afaik	22:50
KotCzarny	so back to 'we need more testers'	22:50
freemangordon	:nod:	22:50
Sicelo	or, testers who vote :)	22:51
freemangordon	why not pester chem\|st to put "please test" link on TMO?	22:51
Sicelo	i'm sure oscp is also widely used by now	22:51
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DocScrutinizer05	do we have too few testers? yes! Why is that? because nobody even understands the concept nowadays	22:51
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kerio	*because we have no users	22:52
DocScrutinizer05	that too	22:52
freemangordon	I guess it is that year or more when the promotion didn't work	22:52
DocScrutinizer05	only power users and devels can do proper testing	22:52
KotCzarny	sicelo: yeah, that what i mean by testers, people who do whole testers drill	22:52
KotCzarny	doc pasted the link for testing qa	22:53
KotCzarny	hmm	22:54
KotCzarny	maybe there should be something similar to moddb script, that tracks what user installed, then after some time (week or so) it popped out the window asking for feedback (simple good/bad)	22:54
DocScrutinizer05	I suggested a few years ago to add a generic framework into SDK for testing repo, so any app built for and installed from maemo-extrastesting would actually do some automated tests plus an nagscreen where the user gets pestered to do complete testing and to vote	22:55
KotCzarny	yes.	22:55
KotCzarny	anyway, sleepy time, nite nite	22:55
freemangordon	gn	22:56
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DocScrutinizer05	exploiting preinstall and postinstall and post-remove in deb packages could already do a hell of a reporting job. Add to that a wrapper around the app that runs the app under 'monitor' and opens a notifier "this is software from testing repo, so please TEST it!" before app starts and a complete webpage that holds results from automated tests under monitor allows manual comments etc, that would prolly go a long way	23:00
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DocScrutinizer05	suddenly it occurs to me how that task is very similar to what is needed for my long time project vaporware "device sanity checker daemon" that's also supposed to check for unusual power drain increase, cpu or mem-hogging etc	23:07
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DocScrutinizer05	"it's too noisy in here" ohmy	23:08
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juliank	Would 100€ seem like a reasonable price for me to sell an N900 at (if I decide to do so)?	23:12
juliank	It only has a few scratches on the display...	23:12
juliank	And it's a US english variant in Germany	23:14
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kerio	i paid 150 a while ago for a mint condition one	23:24
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