IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2015-09-04

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buZzsweet, someone made a entire videoseries of 'fresh n8x0 pimping'00:26
buZzcloning os to SD etc00:27
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mtnmanreinstalling cssu after reflashing01:03
mtnmanF-U-N, even01:03
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DocScrutinizer05mtnman: restoring a BM backup is prolly faster than reinstalling CSSU01:30
mtnmanwhat is bm backup?  it doesn't sound so good :D01:31
infoboti guess backupmenu is
mtnmanwell i already did restore my backup menu... but the cssu source didn't show up in application mgr01:32
mtnmananyhow, cssu is now installing... all is well.01:32
Sicelolooks like N900 is thicker than N810 .. wondering why01:36
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DocScrutinizer05umm, a number of reasons, mostly prolly the main camera module01:37
Siceloah, that one makes sense :)01:37
Sicelobecause cellmo shouldn't really add thickness in this particular case at least01:38
Siceloi find that my interest in Nokia N810 is growing. pity i don't see any in local markets01:39
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sixwheeledbeastWell i would think cellular would take a fair amount of space02:23
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DocScrutinizer05real estate on PCB yes, height no03:01
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Oksanaafind: unrecognized: -exec03:23
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OksanaaI am attempting to build a package on-device, and get error: find: unrecognized: -exec03:40
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Oksanaafind: unrecognized: -exec What is that? During dpkg-buildpackage. And having source code relying on scratchbox so that it cannot be built on device is ugly05:16
OksanaaIs there such a thing as GNU find, and where to find it?05:17
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Oksanaafindutils conflict busybox. going for findutils-gnu05:24
* DocScrutinizer05 has a deja-vu05:37
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DocScrutinizer05Oksanaa: ^^^05:40
DocScrutinizer05[2015-09-03 Thu 04:58:36] <-- Oksanaa (~chatzilla@Maemo/community/council/Wikiwide) has left this server (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).05:41
DocScrutinizer05[2015-09-03 Thu 04:59:09] <DocScrutinizer05> o.O05:41
DocScrutinizer05[2015-09-03 Thu 05:04:54] <DocScrutinizer05> Oksana:
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OksanaaThank you :-) I am too lazy yet to install all the bash and tools, so going on the have-to-have basis...05:46
OksanaaMy /home space is full to extent I cannot check email (aka 10MB free)05:46
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* stryngs thinks we should re-do CSSU to NOT use optify.... To flop 30 and 2, and make the system MORE FHS like...07:31
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OksanaaDon't know. But anybody would make /home full, wil stellarium's seven star catalogues, several email accounts, and thumbnails from tens of thousands of photographs07:35
OksanaaAnd moving it to MyDocs is not helping when MyDocs is being fsck-ed for the first five minutes after start-up07:36
stryngsHmm, DocScrutinizer05: DO NOT install speedpatch, batterypatch, or auto-disconnect _ever_!! All three do not uninstall and do not work. AdBlock will slow down browser to a grinding halt. If you're concerned about your privacy, do not insert SIM before you read about cherry below!07:37
stryngsspeedpatch doesnt do anything?07:37
OksanaaI think I used neither of te three, and AdBlock is not something to be installed even on mighty desktop. And cherry existed too long ago to worry about it anymore?07:40
stryngsi have speedpatch installed07:41
stryngskind of curious somewhat now, but shouldnt be hard to truly purge07:42
KotCzarnystryngs, use privoxy for adblocking07:44
KotCzarnydoc: battery-eye is nice in a sense that it doesnt drain battery (only triggers on events like charger connect/disconnect, and screen unblank07:44
stryngsKotCzarny: I dont browse on the n90007:45
stryngsKotCzarny: ever07:45
KotCzarnyi do, occasionally07:45
stryngsi'm more curious of speedpatch though07:45
stryngswhether it does anything07:45
KotCzarny~listkeys patch07:46
KotCzarnyinfobot: ping07:46
stryngsHere is a better thing, why the fuck doesnt the community own maemo repo yet?07:46
stryngsi.e.  If it sucks, purge it07:46
KotCzarnystryngs, extras is community repo07:46
Oksanaademote it to devel07:46
stryngsyeah, but i'm saying as a whole07:47
stryngsmaemo, everything07:47
stryngsWhy doesnt the community host it07:47
KotCzarnyafaik its cheaper/faster that way07:47
* stryngs debates on making a maemo acct...07:52
svetlanasorry. who hosts it right now?07:52
OksanaaWould be great :-) Maemo account allows to upload packages to repositories, vote in elections, and such07:53
stryngsSo like the garage page is vuln as hell07:57
* stryngs knows it would be easy to pwn any user on it, so thats cool and all07:57
* stryngs is going to write a thread in a couple days07:58
stryngsHopefully it will rally the troops07:58
stryngsAny type of connection07:58
stryngsUn *f'in* satisfactory07:58
KotCzarnynetname:        IPHH-HILDON-SERVER-1 #44265908:01
KotCzarnydescr:          Hildon Foundation08:01
svetlanastryngs: normally there is one 'official' repo which packages get uploaded to. any volunteer then can mirror it. i think it is hosted by volunteers now (with a funny 'foundation' name on it), not by nokia or jolla or microsoft.08:03
svetlana'hildon foundation' is just a term to group stuff under the hood for legal purposes such as owning a trademark08:04
svetlanasomeone correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not on the top of the stuff08:04
OksanaaWell, ask techstaff . I do not know much. It's physically hosted in Germany?08:04
KotCzarnylooks like08:05
stryngssvetlana: Yeah, but08:05
KotCzarnystryngs, contact the webmaster in the link i've posted08:05
OksanaaMore or less correct. MCeV already, though, instead of HiFo08:05
stryngsSadly...  This community, is "fragmented"08:05
stryngsThere should be "one" image08:05
KotCzarnyi dont know who is responsible for garage though08:05
stryngsand branches from there08:06
stryngsIf CSSU is so good, then it should be standard and not an option08:06
Oksanaamerlin, maybe?08:06
stryngsI love maemo, I love my n900, but I hate some things about it...08:06
stryngsI would love to see this community pull together08:06
KotCzarnythere is no such thing as 'community' when there is work to be done08:07
OksanaaProblem is, you cannot pack CSSU as flashable image, because of closed-binaries legal problems?08:07
KotCzarnyone has to address/find specific people08:07
svetlanaI think it is a consequence of nokia doing "official" stuff and volunteers doing "cssu". not sure whether it should remain separate. it is probably a little bit of breakage in what cssu is (?)08:08
stryngsYou can "do" anything u want to do08:08
svetlanayes, what Oksanaa said08:08
stryngsLinut mint08:08
stryngsKali linux08:08
svetlanathose do not have legal problems like what Oksanaa mentioned08:08
KotCzarnyim still using stock 1.3.1 and it works08:08
KotCzarnywith installed packages like kernel-power etc08:09
OksanaaNice... I use CSSU-Testing, but am wary of touching anything-power08:10
stryngsRight, but what I'm getting at08:10
stryngsI envision this:08:11
KotCzarnything is, as long we are stuck on 2.6.28 and old glibc, there is little chance of upgrades08:11 (something like that)08:11
KotCzarnyoksana, do uname -a08:11
stryngsONE website08:11
stryngsONE set of directions08:11
KotCzarnyyou are probably using kernel-power5308:11
stryngsBRANCH ... from there08:11
KotCzarnystryngs, n900-users == maemo.org08:11
stryngsKotCzarny: Do u know someone from
KotCzarnyif you branch, you would just create another08:11
stryngsKotCzarny: Do they hang out in this chan?08:11
KotCzarnythere is already my-maemo and few others08:11
KotCzarnyxes, chemist08:12
stryngsxes_: PONG08:12
stryngschem|st: PONG08:12
stryngsI never see em speak KotCzarny08:12
KotCzarnymerlin too08:12
KotCzarnythey are busy, but alive08:12
stryngsmerlin1991: PONG08:12
stryngsI get they are busy, but we should have a meeting08:12
stryngsSometime within the next 2 weeks08:12
stryngsEverybody get together08:12
OksanaaLinux Nokia-N900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l unknown08:12
stryngsPlot a path forward08:12
stryngsDo you know how much I would LOVE to contribute my .debs to the community?08:13
stryngsI have 106 of them as of tonight08:13
KotCzarnydrat, where is infobot when one needs it08:13
stryngsI don't believe in that stupid optify bullshit08:13
KotCzarnystryngs, extras-devel08:13
stryngsKotCzarny: My debs would fill yer / in a heartbeat08:13
KotCzarnyand i dont use optify, just move things to /opt manually08:13
stryngsI do specific chroot bind mounts to avoid nonsense08:13
stryngsYou shouldnt have to08:13
stryngsthats not FHS08:13
stryngsAnd thus, why we are fragmented and alone08:13
KotCzarnysure, if your / is big08:14
stryngsIt's 256mb, just like yers08:14
KotCzarnyotherwise you have to play tricks08:14
stryngsKotCzarny: No u dont!08:14
KotCzarnybind mounts are tricks08:14
stryngsKotCzarny: Well, it's late, and my wife wants some loving, so I must leave.  U be on tomorrow?08:14
KotCzarnyi'm on all the time08:14
stryngsKotCzarny: I would love to pick your brain, you seem like u give a damn08:14
stryngsKotCzarny: If you + others can get "truly" involved, for a 3 week period08:14
stryngsKotCzarny: Imagine what we the community, could accomplish...08:15
stryngsKotCzarny: Wouldnt it be cool to dpkg -i ANY deb?08:15
stryngsnot worry about optifying nonsense08:15
KotCzarnyi dont worry about optifying, for non-critical packages --prefix=/opt works well08:15
stryngsWe just all have to center on ONE main tree, and branch out from there08:15
stryngsKotCzarny: Yes, but you cannot grab a kali armel deb and dpkg -i it without "tricks" as u say08:16
stryngsThose "tricks" they should be done in the beginning, not for every deb08:16
KotCzarnysure, but you still can recompile it without much hassle, which is recommended too anyway08:16
stryngsCan u do it on the box itself?08:16
stryngsOr must u scratchbvox08:16
stryngsIf u cant do it on the box, its stupid!08:16
stryngsscratchbox should be a perk, not a must08:16
KotCzarnyyou can do it on the box08:16
OksanaaSure, you can do it on device. I am trying to...08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: I'll challenge u on that tonight08:17
KotCzarnybut i like sb because its faster08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: I'll challenge u on that tomorrow08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: I'm going to throw a .deb at u to properly "debian style" recompile, on your n900 tomorrow08:17
KotCzarny6x3.3ghz > 1x600mhz08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: I'm not trying to "challenge" you either, I want to work "with you"08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: Please don't take me the wrong way08:17
KotCzarnyno worries08:17
stryngsKotCzarny: I'm just stiff in my beliefs08:17
OksanaaXchat has some weird parts where it specifically wants scratchbox, not sure how to make it free of sb...08:17
stryngsOksanaa: I can show u how08:18
stryngsOksanaa: I have the red pill08:18
stryngsOksanaa: I can free your mind08:18
stryngsOksanaa: Anyways08:18
stryngsOksanaa: Tomorrow if your avail lets, chat08:18
* stryngs waves and bows08:18
KotCzarnyi dont like debs anyway, im slackware guy08:18
stryngsKotCzarny: I'm marking this spot in my chat, ill pick up on your slackware point, tomorrow.08:19
stryngsNight folks08:19
KotCzarnytar.gz should suffice08:19
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Sicelolol stryngs. cssu shouldn't be forced down people's throats10:40
Sicelothis isn't Windows 1010:40
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KotCzarnysicelo, i wouldnt agree, cssu if done fine and with good QA is something worth pushing10:41
Siceloeven your normal distro allows you a lot of flexibility. btw, CSSU is *still* standard maemo, with many of the bugs fixed10:41
KotCzarnyand its not forced in a way you are not forced to do apt-get upgrade10:41
Sicelofor one, KotCzarny, there's no flashable image for CSSU. how can one force it then10:41
KotCzarnyflashable image isnt forcing either10:42
KotCzarnyjust a convenience10:42
Siceloso we're saying same thing heh.10:42
KotCzarnyeven on windows you can opt out of automatic updates (at least on pre-win10)10:43
Siceloindeed, that's why i chose to say "Windows 10" above ;)10:43
KotCzarnydidnt see the '10' somehow10:44
* Sicelo is responding to stryngs "if cssu is so good, then it should be a standard and not an option"10:44
KotCzarnyis cssu thorougly tested and tried?10:45
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KotCzarnybummer then10:46
Sicelothe attempt is definitely made, and we all report bugs .. but you can't run away from the fact that user numbers are diminishing ...10:47
Siceloiirc there are still lots of devies doing updates though10:47
KotCzarnyis cssu-features package the same as cssu?10:48
Siceloafaik, no. cssu-features configures/enables some of the additions to stanrdard maemo, such as portrait mode. i might be wrong though.10:49
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Ras_OlderDocScrutinizer05: Yesterday I purged the BatteryGraph and whaddya know my little baby is still powered on. I was using it also last night for few hours so things are looking good now. Thank you again!13:57
DocScrutinizer05Ras_Older: YW :-D13:58
DocScrutinizer05battery graph, the app that shows battery draining13:58
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KotCzarnyras: install battery-eye14:06
KotCzarnyit does its thing right14:07
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merlin1991stryngs: pong14:19
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raveloI have some trouble registering at I get the error message: "You have left a required field blank."14:29
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: ^^^14:33
DocScrutinizer05ravelo: you got JS enabled?14:34
ravelo-> did not work in IE (sorry, I admit I use IE :) )14:35
raveloin opera it worked without problems14:35
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DocScrutinizer05...and I thought the browser wars ended around year 2005 or somesuch15:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: ie edge is pretty good15:19
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stryngsOk, I'm responding to chatback right now, so if you say something to me, I won't respond to it just yet.  On the concept of CSSU and being able to provide an image to folks; it can be done.  It's how I do it with my own version of Maemo.  It requires some work and creativity, but it allows for a complete "offline" installation for your n900; much like downloading any random linux ISO.  One should not have to be "online" just to upgrade their n900.16:51
stryngsIMHO, Cssu shouldn't be done like it is; rather a meta-package; cssu_1.0_armel.deb.  This meta package will include everything you need.  I'm guessing it's somewhat done like that now, but "not" in the full debian style meta package sense.16:52
stryngsmerlin1991: Hi, I'm reading chatback right now, so can't respond just yet; but I got your pong =)  I'd really like to setup a community meeting online via IRC on an appointed day to discuss "Where we, the community" can go from here, and how to get those, who wish it, ALL on the same page; not the fragmeneted way things are done right now.16:53
stryngsya'ay, done with scrollback16:53
stryngsSo.....  What are ya'lls thoughts on that?  Creating one "standard" image, for those who wish to use it.  Call is CSSU-ng or whatever...  One simple .deb that provides a metapackage.  Using preinst, postinst, prerm, postrm and the control file; there is nothing that cannot be accomplished.16:54
stryngsAlso, for, I found a vulnerability; who does that get reported to....?  Do they hang out in this chatroom?  If not, why not, etc..?16:55
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warfarestryngs: techstaff@maemo.org17:09
stryngsAh, hi there.17:09
stryngsThat's who i Point to for the vuln?17:09
warfareYes :)17:10
stryngsCool; I'll shoot my report here in a bit.17:10
warfareThat means that at least me & xes get the report.17:10
stryngswarfare: Oh, so you're one of "them" =)?17:10
Ras_OlderWait for a fix before going public?17:10
stryngsRas_Older: I always do17:10
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warfarestryngs: yep.17:11
stryngswarfare: What are your toughts on bringing folks together for a "meet and greet and path plotting"?;2u17:11
warfarestryngs: Maemo folks? I think this would work best at the usual hacker conferences.17:12
stryngswarfare: Right, but the majority of folks I understand, are European.17:12
stryngswarfare: I live in SC, usa.17:12
stryngswarfare: I'd like to come out with a "community approved" standard image for the n900.  Maemo and CSSU based17:13
stryngswarfare: With some bind chroot tricks17:13
stryngswarfare: No more optify nonsense17:13
warfarestryngs: I'm in northern germany, so for me the usual hacker conference is the CCC congress between christmas and new year ;)17:13
stryngswarfare: Wouldn't it be nice to simply dpkg -i ANY armel based deb for the n900 and NOT worry about filling /?17:13
warfarestryngs: Sure, but then you want to talk to merlin1991 about that ;) I'm only doing server stuff.17:14
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stryngswarfare: Copy that, now I'm finally learning names =)17:15
stryngswarfare: sending u vuln report nowq17:15
warfarestryngs: Thanks :)17:16
stryngsthe youtube link is interesting.17:17
stryngswarfare: and sent.17:17
stryngswarfare: If u have further question, pm me;  too lazy to write proper whitepaper for it.17:17
stryngsAlright, time to get movin for work, afk a bit.  If anyone "likes" the idea of "coming together" for a "maemo conference", start posting some ideas...17:18
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Siceloyou'll be installing it next month17:59
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sixwheeledbeastwill it be tested and confirmed stable?18:39
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infobotbme-replacement is, like,  See also: . Please, use wiki page to report bugs/problems and/or solutions to them!, or
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ZetaRIs BME replacement recommended for typical phone usage?18:54
keriostable enough for me18:54
ZetaRSo no babysitting it?18:55
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ZetaRHas anyone made a script or package to strip out the nonfree Maemo packages (however many have replacements) and install the free alternatives?18:57
ZetaRThat would be pretty cool, because it can be hard to figure out how to do all of that.18:57
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sixwheeledbeastZetaR: are we talking extras packages or system FOSS alternative packages19:05
ZetaRsixwheeledbeast: Something that will strip out as many of the proprietary packages as possible from a fresh flash. That is what I have in mind.19:06
sixwheeledbeastZetaR: people have personal versions but not "all closed packages", TBH if your on CSSU-T there's probably a reason that package is still closed and installed.19:09
ZetaRWell, like bme-replacement, for example. Or fapman. AFAIK, there are replacements for many of the unfree things but you have to know to look for them.19:11
kerioi'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure that HAM is opensource19:12
kerioand fapman is bad19:12
ZetaROh, well, these are things I am not well informed about, and why I am asking. Just replace with whatever is actually a good example. ;-)19:13
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sixwheeledbeastYep, do bear in mind that just because it is FOSS that doesn't always mean it's better. Especially if there's no support any more.19:15
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sixwheeledbeastHAM is open hence speedyham19:15
ZetaRMaybe speedyham is what I was thinking of.19:16
sixwheeledbeastspeedyham is ham that has been patched my fmg19:16
ZetaREven just a table of alternatives with comments (like "not recommended because of blah blah") would be nice.19:17
ZetaROr updated versions like speedyham.19:17
sixwheeledbeastWell that's what I mean if you fancy that then CSSU-T is the place to be.19:18
ZetaRAh, okay. I used stable when I did my flash.19:20
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stryngsimho, ham sucks.19:51
* stryngs can't understand why folks would want the GUI package manager that's slower than a cow19:51
DocScrutinizer05ham sucks, use lightningh^H speedyham which *rocks*19:52
infobotit has been said that speedyham is 30 times faster than HAM
stryngsSo hey, DocScrutinizer05, <--- is that you?19:53
DocScrutinizer05sure :-)19:53
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: What have you thought about my idea of generating 1 community image to branch out from?19:53
DocScrutinizer05and I guess a mentioning of speedyham in there would just be in order19:53
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: "Bring" the community together, get us all on a level playing field.19:53
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stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Sure, see this is what I'm talking about.  If it's so good, ham should be removed and speedyham should be the standard.19:54
DocScrutinizer05you lost me19:54
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I want to, in the next couple weeks, get a gather of "smart" maemo folks.19:54
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I'd like us, to put our heads together and decide on what .debs should be on a "standard" image19:54
stryngsAnd then Push that as the "new" way to do maemo19:54
stryngsLike CSSU, but better.19:54
DocScrutinizer05yep, that's what I suggested as "my basic needs covered" package in CSSU repo, as am optional package19:54
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Thing is, everybody has a billion great ideas, but unless u look at the forums, or happen to be in chat at the right time and place; all these ideas are scattered like sand in the wind.19:55
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Whereas, since we evidently have control of the maemo domain via warfare, we can "point" users in a true northward direction.19:55
DocScrutinizer05sadly sort of true that19:55
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I propose, that a 100% offline "image" of "whatever we vote to call it" be made available.19:56
DocScrutinizer05"point users any direction" is not exactly simple19:56
stryngsI already do it with my personal image19:56
stryngsWe need to point em in one direction19:56
stryngsAnd then ofc, they can branch from there19:56
stryngsBut "one true community inspired" list of .debs and settings.19:56
DocScrutinizer05the mere pointing is a problem19:56
stryngsSo why not guide them and us DocScrutinizer05 ?19:57
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: You have TONS of postings19:57
stryngsbut they're scattered here and there and everywherre19:57
stryngsSicelo has nice stuff too19:57
stryngsetc, etc, etc...19:57
DocScrutinizer05we don't have any package we could swap for a new one and expect *all* users to get the update automatically. There's no such packet we have control of and could mess with it and everybody has installed19:57
stryngsYes we do!19:57
sla_erick_Hi there, is there any step by step or any tutorial that shows me how to run an example project in ESbox? Im running the virtual image with everything set up already, got xephyr running, but not sure how to run an example app19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: We make a new repo19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: In that repo we have 1 metapackage19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: If users install that one meta19:58
DocScrutinizer05new repo is a big headache and nobody has it installed and we can't make anybody install it19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Then our Depends: line in the control file, takes care of the rest19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: We can "point em though"19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I'm more than willing to host a repo, I already do for my own purposes.19:58
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I'm more than fluent with the meta concept, it's how I push updates for my own users19:59
DocScrutinizer05I could prepare a script or install-file or whatever, so users could do one-click-upgrade19:59
stryngsJust make it a postinst file in DEBIAN dir.19:59
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Again, revolve this purely around 1 meta deb.19:59
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: So...  Would you be interested in helping me gather the flock of smart folks?20:00
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: If we put our heads together, we could invent some kickass n900 project20:00
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Thanks to your post, I now know speedpatch is pointless.20:00
DocScrutinizer05again, we have no access to the basic repos (well, now we don't have *any* official basic repos), and we don't have a package in e.g. maemo-extras that every user has installed20:00
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Can we not put a package in maemo-extras?20:01
DocScrutinizer05(gather folks) Imight help a little bit, but actually I'm more than just busy with Neo90020:01
DocScrutinizer05yes, we can put as many packages in maemo-extras as we like20:01
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I completly understand, any help u can offer would be wonderful20:01
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I'm going to create a forum post soon on this idea, i'll link u when it's done.20:02
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Thanks for taking the time to listen =)20:02
DocScrutinizer05yw :-) thanks for the initiative20:02
DocScrutinizer05sla_erick_: what's ESbox?20:03
DocScrutinizer05some scratchbox of sorts?20:03
sla_erick_DocScrutinizer05: IDE based on Eclipse20:03
sla_erick_DocScrutinizer05: its included in the SDK image20:04
DocScrutinizer05never heard of, sorry20:04
buZzhmm easydebian is kinda shit :P20:04
DocScrutinizer05sla_erick_: then otoh i'm not a developer20:04
buZzcan i run a newer debian on my n800 in chroot?20:04
stryngsbuZz: "try"20:04
stryngsI've been debating on trying to get docker rolling...20:05
sla_erick_DocScrutinizer05: no problem, I understand20:05
stryngsHow cool would that be.20:05
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buZz^_^ pretty cool20:05
buZzbut just a more recent image of debian would already work i guess20:05
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DocScrutinizer05stryngs: how about providing a BM backup tarball with a completely configured up-to-date system on it, for now?20:10
SiceloKotCzarny: do you know if battery-eye works with bme-replacement?20:10
DocScrutinizer05could even convert that to a fiasco image for flashing20:10
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I have something semi-like what you mention, just not "backup" per se20:11
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: I have users run 4 scripts from a tarball.  In that tarball is what I consider my basic n900 image.  It's not as "clean" as a backup manager thing, but that's because I also remove the need to worry about 'optification' and such.20:12
stryngsDocScrutinizer05:  The installation is 100% offline because all the debs are stored in the tarball itself.20:13
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Simple dpkg -i operations take place20:13
stryngsEnvironment changes, gconf, etc..20:13
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Where I'm lost at; is again, there is no "community consensus" on what's good package, and what's crap package, hence, my image having speedpatch and no speedyham20:14
infobotmethinks speedpatch is >>first i don't realy understand what does this patch do (that is why it is called miracle patch)<< [/quote original-author-of-speedpatch], or [bug report]20:14
KotCzarnysicelo: dont know, im on stock firmware20:15
KotCzarnynothing stops your from testing20:15
stryngsThat's the type of knowledge I want to "imprint" on this proposal...  Also, for the neo900, this will help tremendously because you'll have an "OS" ready to go for neo900 users.20:15
sixwheeledbeast~listkeys broken20:15
infobotFactoid search of 'broken' by key (13 of 28): \broken ;; brokengtalk ;; jargon broken ;; weathercode broken bow ;; link broken ;; broken again shell ;; jargon broken arrow3 ;; weathercode broken hill patton street ;; broken dhcp ;; sid broken networking ;; give or take a broken dependency or two, blackbox ;; sid broken ;; \\broken.20:15
stryngssixwheeledbeast: How's it going20:15
KotCzarnystryngs, i personally (and its not maemo community opinion) dont like cssu-metapackage idea, unless its bare essentials and other things in cssu as optional independent upgrades20:16
stryngssixwheeledbeast: What are your thoughts on getting smartfolks like yourself to put heads together and "create" a true new "maemo" image.20:16
sixwheeledbeastme smart ? o.O20:16
stryngsKotCzarny: That's exactly what it could be, bare essentials,  we could have other metas for other things20:16
stryngsKotCzarny: i.e.20:16
KotCzarnyyou know, the things needed for operation of device20:17
KotCzarnyand not just 'media player'20:17
stryngsKotCzarny: Sure man, I get it20:17
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KotCzarnyor image viewer or anything like that20:17
stryngsKotCzarny: And I like that idea too, actually a lot better than my original idea.20:17
KotCzarnybut as i said, its only my opinion20:17
KotCzarnysome people things that metapackage has to cover whole device experience20:17
stryngsKotCzarny: Take the "1" meta, we'll call it "base" for now...  The base meta will "STRIP" out all nonsense from stock maemo, and add needed essentials20:17
stryngsKotCzarny: Negative, other metas can do that20:18
stryngsKotCzarny: i.e.  n900-media20:18
stryngsI like your idea KotCzarny20:18
stryngsThat's what I'm going to start with then20:18
DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: how's *any* of that related to CSSU?20:18
stryngsKotCzarny: Any idea for a name?  Every good package needs a name20:18
DocScrutinizer05please read:20:19
infobotcssu is probably, or (Community Seamless Software Update)20:19
KotCzarnydoc, i was referring to stryngs idea of cssu metapackage20:19
* stryngs begins writing his proposal while the forge is hot20:19
DocScrutinizer05>>It aims to deliver fixes which would be difficult to deliver through Extras (like core Maemo packages). It won't, however, bundle software which can (or could) be installed through the Extras repositories.<<20:19
SiceloKotCzarny: have just been looking at the source. should work .. it gets info from lshal.20:20
sixwheeledbeastYou need to break the mp to move towards installing what you want, however, firstly all the dependencies of every package need checking and fixing.20:20
stryngssixwheeledbeast: mp?20:21
stryngssixwheeledbeast: I'm typing up this idea right now; it's too much to put into chat.  I'm excited though, people are "thinking" about it and gears are turning20:22
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sixwheeledbeastthe thing is everybody wants something different from Maemo. You need to get it more like a "normal" distro without the metapackage to move forward IMO20:24
stryngssixwheeledbeast: I want what u want20:25
stryngssixwheeledbeast: I believe I have the solution, which is why i'm writing it down20:25
stryngssixwheeledbeast: I believe it will solve everybody's wants too.20:25
stryngssixwheeledbeast: Without giving them "crap" they don't want20:26
stryngsi.e  KotCzarny only wants "basic needs", done...20:26
stryngsYet, for folks like myself, we want everything "hacker", our needs are solved too20:26
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DocScrutinizer05yes, the Meta is a PITA. It can't be *that* hard to create proper dependencies for all the packages in MP20:29
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DocScrutinizer05I fail to really wrap my head around how 'normal' distros make stuff like kernel or dbus or X11 install, but it seems there's no black magic inside maemo couldn't do as well20:30
Sicelowhat is the real *problem* that is being fixed by the proposed idea?20:30
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: Maemo can do it20:30
erlehmannkernel, dbus and x11 is ok20:31
erlehmannsystemd is where it gets hairy20:31
erlehmannthe devs have this vision that it is updated in lockstep with the linux kernel20:31
stryngsSicelo: I'm typing it up!20:31
erlehmannbut the debian package dependency handle system cannot do that, i was told20:31
erlehmannyou cannot actually depend on a specific kernel version20:31
stryngserlehmann: a .deb file can do ANYTHING u want...20:31
stryngserlehmann: pre/post inst/rm files...20:31
stryngserlehmann: They are magic.20:31
erlehmannstryngs … if i download it from zombo.com20:31
erlehmannstryngs the problem is the dependency checking20:31
Sicelowithout a clear understanding of what problem we're trying to solve, i don't think we're going anywhere20:32
erlehmannupgrading from oldstable to stable will happily lead to a system that has systemd and will not let udev recognize your mouse20:32
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, xy is The XY problem: You want to do X, but don't know how. You think you can solve it using Y, but don't know how to do that, either. You ask about Y, which is a strange thing to want to do. Just ask about X.
erlehmanntell me about X!20:32
stryngsSicelo: I know how to do X, I just want to get others onboard, or it's not worth it.20:32
DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: aiui the "problem" is getting proper tools, speedyham, other stuff that's basically 'optional' onto the devices of users who don't want to cherrypick20:32
stryngsMy problem.... I'm not sure what packages suck, and what is recommended, all i have to go off of, is CSSU repo.20:33
infobotspeedyham is, like, 30 times faster than HAM
stryngsSicelo: i.e.  I've been rocking speedypatch, when, according to DocScrutinizer05; I'm stupid for doing so.  Not cool, I should have never had speedypatch on my n900, but since there isn't 1 source of info for all things "Maemo Community", I wouldn't know it.20:34
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KotCzarnydamn consumer dsl20:34
KotCzarnywhat did i miss?20:34
stryngsSicelo: I want to gather the grains of sand, and build the castle20:34
stryngsDiscussing the "idea" KotCzarny20:34
erlehmannmake metapackages maemo-cabal-packages-recommended and maemo-cabal-packages-shitquality ?20:34
Siceloerlehmann: that's what is sounds like to me20:35
erlehmannKotCzarny the people in charge!20:35
DocScrutinizer05no way "cabal", that's poettering infested term20:35
infobotsystemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see
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KotCzarnysystemd is evil20:35
erlehmannharr harr20:36
erlehmannokay, how is your club called?20:36
SiceloKotCzarny: why don't you use bme-replacement?20:36
KotCzarnylately i upgraded my x32 to jessie and now i dont know which way boot scripts go20:36
KotCzarnysicelo: because stock works for me?20:36
KotCzarnyand im too lazy to update to cssu20:36
KotCzarny(when i get my secondary n900 i will, now i only have one n900 as my main phone)20:37
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: you should see ~poettering20:37
Sicelogreat .. that's why i am not so sure about this meta thing20:37
infobot'sth is poettering' means it acts invasive, possessive, destructive, and generally in an egocentric exacerbating negative way. ``this cancer is extremely poettering'', or you look here for Linus' notion on what's poettering:, or, or see ~systemd cabal20:38
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erlehmanni know that one20:40
KotCzarnyi wonder why so many distros jumped onto systemd train20:41
erlehmannKotCzarny it was either that or GNOME stops working20:42
KotCzarnyi dont use gnome (figure that)20:42
erlehmannyes, but that is a *lot* of leverage20:42
erlehmannred hat really pushed its weight around here20:42
erlehmanngnome devs were a bit weasely around that issue, btw20:43
KotCzarnywasnt 'do one thing but do it perfect' *nix lead idea?20:43
KotCzarnyin that sense systemd is turning 180degs20:43
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erlehmannAFAIK, GNOME 3.13.2 “temporarily” depended on systemd. as in “we will remove the dependency in 3.14, honest!”20:44
KotCzarnybye bye gnome20:44
erlehmannturns out the GNOME devs have funny ideas of what “temporarily” means (i.e. “forever”)20:45
erlehmannand then it was on, you either ditch GNOME from your distribution or use systemd20:45
KotCzarnyfunnily how much faster my laptop is without it20:45
KotCzarnyand how much crappackages are uninstalled when one doesnt need it anymore20:45
erlehmanntreachery! blasphemy!20:46
erlehmannhahaha :D20:46
erlehmann; cat /etc/apt/preferences.d/use-sysvinit20:46
erlehmannPackage: systemd-sysv20:46
erlehmannPin: release o=Debian20:46
erlehmannPin-Priority: -120:46
KotCzarnyi do that too, but still, my initscripts are a mess now20:46
erlehmanna mess?20:47
KotCzarnysomething doesnt remount my / rw20:47
KotCzarnybut this x32 debian is just a test bed anyway20:48
KotCzarnynormally i use slack20:48
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: many thanks for - awesome20:48
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erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 i have a less tongue-in-cheek post regarding the issue
KotCzarnyis there english version?20:49
erlehmannits a shopping list of bullying behaviour20:49
erlehmannKotCzarny the post that DocScrutinizer05 liked is just “why is it GNU/Linux instead of Linux” mutated to “why is it Systemd/Linux instead of Linux”20:49
erlehmannit is mainly a joke20:49
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erlehmanni can highly recommend to read the systemd source20:50
erlehmannand the pulseaudio source20:50
erlehmannit is quality comedy20:50
KotCzarnyit looks like slack doesnt have gnome anymore in -current20:50
erlehmannso back to the thing20:57
KotCzarnyhehe, so systemd is just about shaving 5s boot time, when we have tux-on-ice, yet making it inflexible and buggy20:57
KotCzarnysounds like the right idea20:58
stryngsCan one of ya'll do me a favor and on your n900, please do: mount | nc 9999 && df -h | nc 999920:59
stryngsAnd post the urls?20:59
stryngsI need a non'stryngs system to compare for the post against21:00
stryngsKotCzarny: that's hillarious21:03
KotCzarnywhich part?21:03
stryngsI actually refreshed 3 times before I got the joke21:03
stryngsPlease refresh the page to continue...21:03
KotCzarnyworks for me in firefox21:04
stryngsOh, u actually posted it?21:04
stryngsI thought u were lulzing me21:04
KotCzarnythat's my n900's df and mount21:04
KotCzarnyand works in links too21:05
stryngsThat's what it shows.21:05
KotCzarnytry links?21:05
stryngsMeh, I got it from DocScrutinizer0521:05
KotCzarnyor any other browser?21:05
stryngsAnyone's system works just fine, just need something "other" than mine right now21:05
erlehmanni am waiting for21:05
erlehmannsystemd on /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd type cgroup (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,name=systemd)21:05
stryngsTrying to make this as indepth of a writeup as possible.  I'm only going to get one shot at this when it comes to people listening....21:06 is JS infested iirc21:06
DocScrutinizer05actually nope, it's a plain txt21:06
KotCzarnycopy on pastebin.ca21:07
KotCzarnydoc: i always paste raw links21:07
DocScrutinizer05aaah that's why21:07
KotCzarnyfaster and no js, dont know why they hate stryngs chrome21:07
KotCzarnyas i said, link worked in links21:08
stryngsMeh, no worries, DocScrutinizer05's post was exactly what I needed21:08
stryngsI really thought  you lulz'd me though, I busted out laughing21:08
KotCzarnystryngs, his system is cssu, mine us stock fremantle21:08
DocScrutinizer05...and it made me curse why no netcat on my N90021:09
Sicelocssu doesn't repartition anything iirc .. so they'll be the same21:09
KotCzarnysicelo, what about free space?21:09
Siceloi doubt that's what stryngs is after :)21:09
DocScrutinizer05well, it doesn't repartition but for sure has some changes to uSD card mounts21:09
Sicelohe's likely on mounts the way i understand21:10
stryngsSicelo: you're 100% correct21:10
KotCzarnyi wonder why pymaemo is so ugly in bind mounts21:10
stryngsKotCzarny: I intend to fix that.21:10
stryngsKotCzarny: Quick, fast and in a hurry.21:10
KotCzarnysymlinks would suffice21:10
stryngsThis is where Pali will come in at too21:10
stryngsNo, no symlinks, bind mounts21:10
stryngsI want FHS21:10
erlehmannstryngs what is the writeup?21:10
stryngserlehmann: My proposal for a "standard maemo" "distro"21:10
stryngserlehmann: But, I've gotta make sure I write it up proper, otherwise, nobody will care, and things stay the same.21:11
stryngserlehmann: I will post before end of day though.21:11
erlehmannstryngs maemo 6?21:11
stryngserlehmann: We can call it dogwater for all i care.21:11
* stryngs goes back to writing21:11
Sicelo6 is Harmattan ;)21:11
KotCzarnyhmm, but it will need repartitioned internal mmc, right?21:11
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KotCzarnycall it fremantle reloaded21:12
erlehmanncan i choose the codename?21:12
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erlehmanncall it “meatloaf mermen“21:15
erlehmannthat's an anagram of “maemo fremantle”21:15
DocScrutinizer05that's great :-D21:16
DocScrutinizer05but actually it's not a veritable distro, it's just a collection of patches and apps21:16
KotCzarnydoc, remember difference between chinook and diablo?21:16
KotCzarnyalso just a collection of patches and upgrades21:16
DocScrutinizer05so what Yast calls a category or group or theme21:16
KotCzarnyanagram: did you mean: nag a ram?21:17
DocScrutinizer05well, I seriously doubt that, since packages were not really compatible, no?21:17
KotCzarnyi think they mostly were, i might be wrong, old time21:18
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KotCzarny Fecal Sternums21:18
KotCzarny Screams Fluent21:19
KotCzarny Scam Resentful21:19
KotCzarny Manful Secrets21:19
stryngsI take it Fecal Sternums would be at the "center" of the maemo world =)21:19
stryngsA shitstorm as it were...21:19
KotCzarnyso many fecal options21:19
KotCzarny Fecal Men Rusts21:20
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DocScrutinizer05Camel Rent Fuss21:20
KotCzarny Camel Nest Surf21:21
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KotCzarny Rectal Mess Fun21:22
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stryngsI dunno, meatloaf mermen is kinda funny =)  Almost ubuntu like in it's ridiculousness21:24
KotCzarnysomething that makes cssu spellable would be nice either21:24
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erlehmannokay, is it possible to create a bare-bones image for maemo?21:27
erlehmannlike, with current tools?21:27
erlehmannone that can be flashed to the n900?21:28
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KotCzarnyflashable? yes, fiasco? probably not21:28
stryngserlehmann: Yes and no.  flash and the apt-get purge21:28
KotCzarnyrescueos is a nice base for arbitrary flashing21:29
KotCzarnywith ability to change partitions too21:29
erlehmannso how far can we get with a bare-bones image and mostly-free software?21:29
KotCzarnyor rsyncing things21:29
infobotL4-compatible real-time microkernel capable of running Linux in usermode. URL:
KotCzarny~literal fiasco21:29
infobot"fiasco" is "<reply> L4-compatible real-time microkernel capable of running Linux in usermode. URL:"21:29
KotCzarny~listkeys fiasco21:30
infobotFactoid search of 'fiasco' by key (1): fiasco.21:30
KotCzarnyerlehman: fiasco is the image format used by flasher-3.521:30
stryngserlehmann: Pretty damn far, the problem is all the info is scattered worse than a sandstorm21:30
erlehmannthen we should start collecting ti21:31
KotCzarnyinitrd based boot + some scripting + mtd tools ?21:31
stryngserlehmann: That's what I'm tryign to do =)21:32
KotCzarny0xFFFF can boot kernel+initrd21:32
KotCzarnyinternal flash is mtd device21:32
KotCzarnyunless we talk about moving everything to internal sd21:32
erlehmannbusybox can be init21:32
erlehmanni have an outlandish idea21:32
erlehmannuse DJB redo for init system21:32
erlehmanni implemented redo in like 300 lines of shell script21:32
erlehmannso you could have dependency based boot with shell21:33
KotCzarnyi dont mind good ol' sysvinit21:33
KotCzarnybut redo/upstart work as long its consistent21:34
erlehmannyeah, or that21:35
KotCzarnydoes redo work with standard apps? (for example apache init scripts etc)21:36
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DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: of course you can build a FIASCO image with all the nice tools in it21:40
KotCzarnyhe left21:40
KotCzarnyhe asked if it can be built with foss tools21:40
DocScrutinizer05I dunno if fiascogen is FOSS21:41
DocScrutinizer05check out:21:42
infobotrumour has it, backupmenu is
DocScrutinizer05there's a fiasco rootimage (aka COMBINED) with BM integrated21:43
DocScrutinizer05and instructions how to build it21:43
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: o0o021:46
stryngsDocScrutinizer05: So we "can" build an image, that has more and less than what the stock pr1.3 comes with, and flash it Directly to the n900?21:47
stryngsIntersting, I'm going to notate that21:48
stryngsYet another tidbit of info21:48
* stryngs hears "Dust in the Wind" playing softly in the background21:48
* DocScrutinizer05 heads to kitchen for some calories goo and a fine latte mac21:49
DocScrutinizer05stryngs: yet another "info" source you as well could ignore: wiki "the optimal setup"21:50
DocScrutinizer05pretty biased21:50
DocScrutinizer05it might have valuable factoids in it, but you need to check every single line if it's actually what you want21:52
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KotCzarnyThen I tried systemd again. I have configured my system for runlevel 3, but initctl insists on runlevel 5 for the legacy initscripts. You cannot change this behaviour because it is hardcoded in the C source like engraved in stone, seriously! This is exactly why I prefer scripts.21:57
KotCzarnycould be the reason my initscripts in this systemd debian are a mess21:58
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Palistryngs: hm... you highlighted my name22:04
Paliso? :-)22:04
DocScrutinizer05I think it wasn't a request22:11
DocScrutinizer05prolly was about [2015-09-04 Fri 20:09:58] <DocScrutinizer05> well, it doesn't repartition but for sure has some changes to uSD card mounts22:13
DocScrutinizer05Pali: hi btw22:13
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KotCzarnyTelefon od poczontuk urzywany przeze mnie wszystko działa prucz wyraźnego usb22:36
KotCzarnyum, wrong window, sorry22:36
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stryngsPali: Hi!23:22
stryngsPali I don't want to repeat my idea a  billion times, but here is the gist:  Put all the smart maemo folks together and create something better than what we have.23:22
stryngsPali: U are the Kernel developer genius23:22
stryngsPali: Hence, your highlight23:23
stryngsPali: I'm about 1/3 done with the proposal and will link u when complete23:23
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