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| pentanol | anyone around? | 06:44 |
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| zGrr | moin :) | 08:23 |
| pentanol | hare | 08:34 |
| Vajb | o/ | 08:49 |
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| JamesJRH | Hello. | 14:43 |
| APic\splat | Hi. | 14:44 |
| JamesJRH | Is there any chance that Maemo will be ported to the Fairphone?: https://fairphone.com/ | 14:45 |
| JamesJRH | I'm thinking of supporting that. | 14:45 |
| KotCzarny | what for? | 14:45 |
| KotCzarny | O.o | 14:45 |
| KotCzarny | which maemo features you like/need? | 14:46 |
| JamesJRH | I thinking that it's a prefunded phone, where the development is driven by preörders, so potentially they'd be willing to support libre software operating systems. They seem like an ethical company, but I haven't approached them yet. | 14:48 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: I don't know; I haven't used Maemo before but I think I'll prefer it to Android. | 14:48 |
| JamesJRH | Although I would like it if I could still run Android applications so that I can still use those from F-Droid. | 14:49 |
| JamesJRH | Actually, it's a social enterprise, not a company. | 14:49 |
| JamesJRH | So basically founded and driven by social/ethical values. | 14:50 |
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| KotCzarny | i would prefer more plain linux os | 14:51 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: Can I run Maemo with zero proprietary software, including firmware blobs? | 14:51 |
| JamesJRH | Oh? | 14:51 |
| KotCzarny | i think the phone parts miss openness | 14:51 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: What do you mean by plain? You mean like proper GNU+Linux (as opposed to Android), or do you mean desktop-style? If the former, I thought that was Maemo; if the latter, how would you effectively use that on a phone? | 14:53 |
| KotCzarny | maemo is deeply hacked desktop system | 14:55 |
| JamesJRH | Fairphone's website barely mentions openness or technological freedom such as libre software but I'm going to contact them and ask whether that's something they'd be interested in. | 14:56 |
| JamesJRH | Well I like that it's a proper GNU+Linux distro. | 14:56 |
| KotCzarny | if its not supported by mainline kernel there will be trouble in keeping it up to date | 14:58 |
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| JamesJRH | Aah, this is relevant: https://fairphone.com/2013/02/28/mobile-world-congress-2013/ | 15:00 |
| JamesJRH | :-) | 15:00 |
| JamesJRH | But Maemo isn't mentioned; it appears that they did not consider it. | 15:01 |
| JamesJRH | Or even know about it. | 15:01 |
| bencoh | "There have been positive responses, but several fans have also urged us to look into alternatives: “Please use a different OS!” “Try Ubuntu or Firefox,” and even some hardcore techies asking for BSD and Plan 9 OS (I had to look those up!)." | 15:02 |
| bencoh | "Although, we stand by our choice of launching our first phone with a rootable Android OS" | 15:02 |
| bencoh | do you seriously expect them to use maemo ? | 15:02 |
| bencoh | (or even "know" about it) | 15:02 |
| KotCzarny | they mentioned sailfish | 15:03 |
| KotCzarny | *shrugs* | 15:03 |
| kerio | why would maemo be an option | 15:03 |
| JamesJRH | I don't consider Firefox OS any better than Android. Definitely not a complete GNU+Linux system. And Mozilla is very bad these days. I'm glad they chose Android over that. | 15:03 |
| kerio | it's hopelessly outdated | 15:03 |
| kerio | with no way to fix it | 15:03 |
| KotCzarny | but seriously, if they make hardware open and os hackable | 15:03 |
| KotCzarny | there is no need to worry | 15:03 |
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| KotCzarny | community is good at it, if there is a way | 15:04 |
| bencoh | sailfish received some kind of (tech-savvy) media coverage back in 2013 | 15:04 |
| bencoh | especially at WMC | 15:04 |
| bencoh | (and they basically need as many hw adopters as they can get) | 15:05 |
| bencoh | JamesJRH: anyway, this is just (yet another) "androphone" with some closed single-chip shared-bus modem/cpu design | 15:06 |
| bencoh | they dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of" | 15:08 |
| JamesJRH | “Sailfish OS is the open source Linux […] mobile operating system combining […], the proprietary UI written by Jolla and other third parties components of any licences established by its authors and owners.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS | 15:08 |
| JamesJRH | Sailfish OS is definitely not something that I'd support. | 15:08 |
| JamesJRH | Not fully libre. | 15:08 |
| bencoh | no | 15:08 |
| bencoh | sailfish is definitely not libre :) | 15:08 |
| JamesJRH | Apparently Replicant works on the Fairphone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairphone#Replicant | 15:09 |
| bencoh | could work | 15:10 |
| bencoh | having replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not always easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs | 15:10 |
| bencoh | s/always// | 15:11 |
| infobot | bencoh meant: having replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs | 15:11 |
| bencoh | oh and ... Paul Kocialkowski on May 6, 2015 at 11:03 am said: | 15:12 |
| bencoh | I’m not going to port Replicant to the Fairphone at this point. | 15:12 |
| bencoh | http://blog.replicant.us/2013/11/fairphone/ | 15:12 |
| JamesJRH | 12:08:03 < bencoh> they dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of" ← I understand this, but that's why I'm planning to contact them to try to make them realise that technological liberty is another important ethical consideration that they should take onboard. | 15:12 |
| JamesJRH | bencoh: Ah, I already have this article open. I should get on and read it. :-) | 15:14 |
| bencoh | yup | 15:14 |
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| JamesJRH | That page isn't nearly as long if you ‘Inspect Element’ and delete the div element that has id="comments". :-) | 15:20 |
| xkr47 | JamesJRH, or by pasting this is the url field and hitting enter: javascript:document.getElementById('comments').remove(); | 15:25 |
| KotCzarny | add that to bookmarks | 15:26 |
| KotCzarny | its called scriptlets | 15:27 |
| xkr47 | I thought it was called bookmarklet | 15:28 |
| KotCzarny | also | 15:28 |
| KotCzarny | depends | 15:28 |
| Wizzup_ | JamesJRH: sailfish has a libre core | 15:32 |
| JamesJRH | xkr47: Indeed. That looks right but it doesn't seem to do anything. | 15:34 |
| KotCzarny | they should just go plain debian or something and make a theme and bunch of apps | 15:34 |
| xkr47 | worked here | 15:34 |
| xkr47 | omg they changed something! | 15:34 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: Indeed; this could be very useful as a scriptlet (if I can make it work) because I expect that it'll work on all other WordPress sites, as well as many others too. | 15:36 |
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| JamesJRH | Wizzup_: I know. So does Mac OS (i.e. Darwin) and many other things. I want the freeïst system that I can get, and for what will be my next phone, this is looking pretty tricky. | 15:38 |
| Wizzup_ | neomobile is free isn't it | 15:39 |
| Wizzup_ | (does it still exist) | 15:39 |
| JamesJRH | However, they are designing a new Fairphone planned for the end of the year or so, so I'm going to contact them and see what they can do to do better. | 15:39 |
| Wizzup_ | seperate modem. | 15:40 |
| JamesJRH | Wizzup_: I also want the OS to be a proper GNU+Linux system (unlike Android) so this is why I'm interested in Maemo. | 15:41 |
| Wizzup_ | jolla is gnu+linux | 15:41 |
| KotCzarny | maemo is old | 15:41 |
| KotCzarny | awfully old | 15:41 |
| Wizzup_ | (I'm not saying jolla is the best thing ever, I am just clearing some things up) | 15:41 |
| Wizzup_ | KotCzarny: yes, but it can be updated... | 15:41 |
| Wizzup_ | That is what some people are doing, as well | 15:42 |
| bencoh | nemo still exists | 15:44 |
| bencoh | but it's more like a mer+glacierUI combination these days | 15:44 |
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| KotCzarny | xkr47: in the long run stuff gets unsupported, so its nice if you can drop new things easily | 15:47 |
| xkr47 | JamesJRH if you always want to apply that, you can use "greasemonkey" plugin that can automatically run scripts like that | 15:50 |
| xkr47 | JamesJRH or you can use firefox "Stylish" plugin and create a CSS rule like #comment { display: none; } | 15:50 |
| KotCzarny | xkr47: its not effective | 15:51 |
| KotCzarny | ie. you would have to eneable it for * | 15:51 |
| xkr47 | true.. | 15:54 |
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| JamesJRH | 12:41:32 < Wizzup_> jolla is gnu+linux ← GNU+Linux is libre; Jolla is not. | 15:59 |
| JamesJRH | xkr47: I finally got it working… sort of. After reading https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/885558 , it turns out that JavaScript URLs have been disable since Firefox 6. However, the workaround is actually to make a bookmarklet anyway: “You need a bookmarklet or an add-on for a workaround.” | 16:05 |
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| JamesJRH | xkr47: However, it's not trivial to make a bookmark of something I can't access then press Ctrl-D, so I had to read https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/bookmarklets-perform-common-web-page-tasks to find out that I have to drag the URL onto the bookmarks toolbar. | 16:10 |
| KotCzarny | hmm,i think they work as a bookmarklets | 16:10 |
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| JamesJRH | I don't have or want that toolbar to be shown and there doesn't seem to be a way to edit a new bookmark from scratch, but I realise that the same thing works by dragging into the ‘Show All Bookmarks’ window into e.g. the ‘Bookmarks Menu’ section. | 16:12 |
| KotCzarny | you can click 'new bookmark' then just enter code | 16:13 |
| KotCzarny | cant check the syntax tho, got it on my lappy | 16:13 |
| KotCzarny | but definitely working | 16:13 |
| JamesJRH | So I now have the bookmarklet in my bookmarks – only thing is, whereas I normally access all bookmarks from the URL bar, the bookmarklet still refuses to be activate from here. I literally have to select it from the bookmarks menu. Oh well, it's probably still a bit quicker than inspecting the page. | 16:16 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: I don't see ‘new bookmark’ anywhere in Firefox. | 16:17 |
| KotCzarny | open bookmarks | 16:17 |
| JamesJRH | Ah! | 16:18 |
| JamesJRH | From the context menu! | 16:18 |
| JamesJRH | ‘New Bookmark...’ | 16:18 |
| JamesJRH | Okay, and if I make a new folder, ‘bookmarklets’, at the top then that'll save them from getting lost in my many, many bookmarks (which, aside from this 1 folder, and tags, I don't organise but just search through the Firefox ‘Awesomebar’). This will now be several times quicker than inspecting element! Thank you xkr47 and KotCzarny! :-) | 16:24 |
| KotCzarny | :) | 16:30 |
| xkr47 | ^^ | 16:30 |
| xkr47 | automation to the rescue | 16:30 |
| KotCzarny | firefox ftw | 16:30 |
| xkr47 | yeah | 16:30 |
| JamesJRH | Ahaa! Nah, scrap that folder idea – I tried setting a keyword, ‘kc’ (standing for ‘kill comments’), and it worked from the Awesomebar! This is now extremely faster than before, taking an insignificant amount of time! | 16:39 |
| JamesJRH | I didn't like the folder idea. That was the first bookmark folder that I'd made in years. I simply don't use bookmark folders; I find that I can't organise things as tree structures easily (my filesystem is a mess, btw.). I've deleted the ‘bookmarklets’ folder in favour of a ‘bookmarklet’ tag, instead. | 16:42 |
| KotCzarny | they are nice in the bookmark toolbar | 16:43 |
| KotCzarny | ie. you can put all youtube links in one folder | 16:43 |
| KotCzarny | and ebay links in another, etc | 16:44 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: I don't use the toolbar; I access all bookmarks from the Awesomebar by typing and hitting tab. Probably over 90% of my human interface input to my laptops is via the keyboard, followed by the pointing stick which is at least inline with touch-typing, followed by the inductive tablet stylus (my laptop's are ThinkPad X60 Tablets). | 16:52 |
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| JamesJRH | Anything that can be easily done by only typing, such as tagging and accessing bookmarks, I prefer. | 16:52 |
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| JamesJRH | I even use a USB ThinkPad keyboard with my Android smartphone via a little USB OTG adaptor cable. | 16:54 |
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| KotCzarny | trackpoint ftw | 16:54 |
| JamesJRH | :-) | 16:54 |
| JamesJRH | It's really cool how a little pointer appears on my phone when I move the pointing device. :-) | 16:56 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: Also, this is useful if I have my laptop with me but not the USB keyboard: https://f-droid.org/repository/browse/?fdid=de.onyxbits.remotekeyboard | 17:31 |
| JamesJRH | I frequently use USB tethering, so security shouldn't be and issue, though I'd like it if it had a way to restrict access to only the USB tethering network interface. | 17:32 |
| JamesJRH | an issue* | 17:32 |
| KotCzarny | write to the author? | 17:33 |
| JamesJRH | I'll put it on my todo list. Alternatively I could submit a patch; it should be a simple thing to do. | 17:34 |
| KotCzarny | he he | 17:34 |
| KotCzarny | those 'it should be simple' sometimes require total rewrite | 17:35 |
| KotCzarny | ;) | 17:35 |
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| JamesJRH | It doesn't quite make the USB ThinkPad keyboard redundant, though, because it's lacking a way to capture and transmit pointer movement. This, however, is way beyond my ability and may not even be possible within the Android APIs. USB HID is supported, but for an application to send pointer events to the system without a standard, I expect root access would be required. | 17:38 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: No, it should be just a few lines of code. Also, other applications in F-Droid are capable of binding to a specific interface, so if I get stuck I should just find a relevant sample and learn from that. | 17:40 |
| JamesJRH | The few lines of code will mostly be for making it optional – if I just wanted to hardcode it in such that it's not even an option, it may be a matter of just changing a single existing line. | 17:42 |
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| JamesJRH | It currently binds to interface 0.0.0.0 (i.e. any). Changing that to 192.168.42.129, the address that my phone always uses for USB tethering, will cause it to only listen on the tethered network, of which only 1 device (my laptop) is connected. | 17:46 |
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| JamesJRH | For me at least, WiFi hotspot always listens on 192.168.43.1, so it shouldn't accidently be accessible on WiFi. I.e. it's fixed, not random/dynamic. I don't know for Bluetooth tethering because I don't use it, but I expect that it'll also be fixed to a nonconflicting address. | 17:57 |
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| JamesJRH | Option-wise, at the bare minimum I could make it allow the user to specify the IP address of the interface, giving 192.168.42.129 as an example in the caption, but it would be preferable to go by interface names and list the current interfaces. | 18:13 |
| JamesJRH | I want to learn to write applications for Maemo/Hildon. | 18:15 |
| JamesJRH | So anyway, back to what I was saying before. | 18:16 |
| JamesJRH | 12:03:29 < kerio> with no way to fix it ← Why? | 18:16 |
| KotCzarny | james, do you know how to write apps for gtk/qt ? | 18:16 |
| L29Ah | JamesJRH: because it takes a lot of manpower to keep the whole distro up to date | 18:17 |
| JamesJRH | I've dabbled, but I need to give it another go. | 18:17 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: ^ | 18:17 |
| kerio | JamesJRH: not enough people, some fundamental closed stuff that requires old infrastructure | 18:17 |
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| JamesJRH | L29Ah: I'm not actually that interested in the distro, just the top layer, the interface that the applications require that are specific to touchscreens and phones. I actually want to run NixOS on whatever my next phone will be and package and write touch-based applications for that. | 18:19 |
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| L29Ah | you have xorg | 18:20 |
| JamesJRH | And I'm not just after touch-based, I'd also like to use it as a normal NixOS desktop when plugged-in to a keyboard and bigger screen. | 18:20 |
| L29Ah | what else are you interested in? | 18:20 |
| KotCzarny | maemo has some deep system hacks | 18:21 |
| L29Ah | the gsm part is quite closed unless you bump the kernel and use ofono | 18:21 |
| bencoh | hmm ? | 18:21 |
| JamesJRH | 15:20:43 < L29Ah> what else are you interested in? ← Well, when not using as a desktop, I'd like some touch-oriented interfaces including the ability to run Android applications, such as those from F-Droid. | 18:22 |
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| L29Ah | so, xorg | 18:22 |
| bencoh | L29Ah: one could keep cmtspeech with the current cmt driver | 18:22 |
| L29Ah | there's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair | 18:23 |
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| L29Ah | but i guess you won't want to run android stuff on an A8 with 256Mb of ram | 18:24 |
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| JamesJRH | Particularly, a dialer, SMS messenging, an email client (e.g. K-9 Mail), a web browser, a camera application (e.g. Open Camera), OsmAnd, and my application Hexiano. | 18:25 |
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| JamesJRH | 15:23:04 < L29Ah> there's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair ← Yes, but it's emulated rather than native. It should be possible to run Dalvik directly, but I've no idea. | 18:27 |
| L29Ah | what | 18:31 |
| L29Ah | ARM is not a Java machine, you know | 18:31 |
| bencoh | osmand would be dead slow on n900 | 18:31 |
| * L29Ah misses osmand ._. | 18:31 | |
| bencoh | L29Ah: but ... it's so slow ! | 18:32 |
| bencoh | even on "modern" android phones | 18:32 |
| L29Ah | osmand on a9 is faster than navit on n900 | 18:32 |
| L29Ah | and osmand can do height lines | 18:32 |
| KotCzarny | opengl would be perfect for map stuff | 18:35 |
| L29Ah | An OpenGL renderer for Mapbox Vector Tiles, consisting of a C++ library for OS X and Linux and SDK bindings for iOS and Android. | 18:37 |
| L29Ah | wat mapwat | 18:37 |
| L29Ah | can i haz osm? | 18:37 |
| JamesJRH | 15:32:05 < bencoh> L29Ah: but ... it's so slow ! 15:32:16 < bencoh> even on "modern" android phones ← I've noticed that OsmAnd has got much faster in the last few months. | 18:41 |
| JamesJRH | It was slow on my old LG Optimus 3D, frequently taking over 10s to render the screen, and it was just as slow when I got my Sony Xperia Z1, presumably because it had more pixels, but it has since become a lot faster, I think because it's making better use of the GPU now (hardware accelleration didn't seem to make a difference a while back). | 18:41 |
| JamesJRH | 15:31:42 < bencoh> osmand would be dead slow on n900 ← Maemo shouldn't have to be confined to the N900; I'd like to run GNU+Linux and Hildon on newer devices such as, potentially, the Fairphone that I mentioned earlier. | 18:45 |
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| KotCzarny | i always say, good gtk/qt theme, and you wouldnt see much difference | 18:49 |
| JamesJRH | 15:35:12 < KotCzarny> opengl would be perfect for map stuff ← OsmAnd has an ‘General settings’ option, ‘Use OpenGL rendering’, which nowadays is enabled by default. When I started using OsmAnd a few years ago, I think it either didn't exist yet or was an experimental feature with a caption something like the typical ‘Use at your own risk!’, disabled by default. | 18:50 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: Difference to what? | 18:51 |
| KotCzarny | difference to maemo | 18:51 |
| JamesJRH | Is that all? I'd have thought that multitouch support would require more than just a theme. | 18:52 |
| bencoh | n900 is singletouch, and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far | 18:53 |
| KotCzarny | you can simulate two-touch on singletouch devic3s | 18:53 |
| bencoh | (not saying it cant, just that it doesnt) | 18:54 |
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| KotCzarny | and i think newer xorg input library has multitouch support | 18:55 |
| KotCzarny | so its up to the applications to use it | 18:55 |
| JamesJRH | “frequently taking over 10s” (on both my Optimus 3D and Xperia Z1.) ← Btw., I forgot to say that OsmAnd now renders mostly in under 1 or 2 seconds on my Z1, so 10× quicker than earlier versions. I haven't tried updating on my old phone yet though. | 18:59 |
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| JamesJRH | Right. :-/ | 18:59 |
| JamesJRH | “and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far” ← I didn't realise. So Maemo's UI really isn't much more than a themed desktop application with bigger buttons. :-/ | 19:01 |
| KotCzarny | well, it is much more | 19:03 |
| JamesJRH | I want to write new mobile applications that use multitouch, and I'm holding back until I settle on a platform that I'm happy to commit time to learning it. | 19:03 |
| KotCzarny | but those parts are hardly movable | 19:03 |
| KotCzarny | james, read abot lib xi multitouch | 19:03 |
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| KotCzarny | also, read what is multitouch support in gtk/qt (and maybe some rarer toolkits) | 19:08 |
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| JamesJRH | Okay, I'd like to form an interface on NixOS that is able to run Hildon, Qt, and Android applications (as well as display a normal desktop environment when connected to a keyboard and monitor). This may seem ambitious, but I have patience for this goal. | 19:13 |
| JamesJRH | The question I think boils down to whether I should learn to develop for Hildon or Qt. I use Gnome and Gtk applications more than Qt applications, so maybe I should go with Hildon for mobile and Gtk for desktop applications. | 19:15 |
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| KotCzarny | hildon uses gtk i think | 19:20 |
| KotCzarny | i may be wrong tho | 19:20 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: That's what I mean. If I'm using a lot of Gtk software I might as well learn Gtk, and if I'm going to learn Gtk I might as well learn Hildon. | 19:22 |
| L29Ah | ldd mentions glib stuff but no gtk | 19:22 |
| L29Ah | is hildon open source? | 19:23 |
| JamesJRH | Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildon | 19:23 |
| JamesJRH | GNU LGPL. | 19:23 |
| KotCzarny | then just port ubuntu and use hildon port for ubuntu? | 19:24 |
| bencoh | there is (used to be) a project to for hildon on debian/ubuntu/desktops | 19:24 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: To what? | 19:25 |
| KotCzarny | l29ah: there is hildongtk+ library | 19:25 |
| KotCzarny | james: to your device of choice? | 19:25 |
| JamesJRH | I'm going to use NixOS. | 19:25 |
| JamesJRH | I'll package Hildon for it, if that's what I decide. | 19:25 |
| JamesJRH | Which is seemly likely now. | 19:26 |
| L29Ah | i wonder if it less dead than matchbox | 19:26 |
| bencoh | see cordia | 19:26 |
| L29Ah | *is | 19:26 |
| bencoh | oh and ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erf_Dr16Pdo | 19:26 |
| JamesJRH | 16:26:03 < bencoh> see cordia ← Searching for this doesn't get anywhere. Do you have a link? | 19:27 |
| JamesJRH | Oh, the video mentions it. | 19:28 |
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| JamesJRH | There's quite a bit about multitouch on this blog: https://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/author/carlosg/ | 19:51 |
| KotCzarny | gtk 3.4 and later supports multitouch and kinetic scrolling | 19:53 |
| JamesJRH | This video is interesting: https://blogs.gnome.org/carlosg/2012/01/20/multitouch-is-near/ | 19:57 |
| JamesJRH | I like the way that multiple sliders can be adjusted whilst also still being able to move the rectangles. | 19:58 |
| JamesJRH | That video's out-of-date, though. I guess that's all standard now in Gtk 3.4 and later. | 19:59 |
| JamesJRH | “This turns the multitouch GTK+ branch into a suitable candidate for GTK+ 3.4, […]” ← Okay, so yes. That must have been what happened. | 20:01 |
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| JamesJRH | Right, I'll mess around with the Gtk demos at some point and see whether I can write a multitouch application in Haskell. From there, I'll think about rewriting Hexiano to be purely-functional, but in the mean time I have ideas for a number of smaller applications that I'll start out with. | 20:07 |
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| JamesJRH | Okay, so I'm now going to contact Fairphone and see what they say about technological liberty. I hope they can see the importance in fitting it in with their other ethical values. I'm going to persuade them to make sure that their next model will be blob-free and supported by Replicant, as well as them releasing all of the hardware designs that are under their control under an open hardware | 20:16 |
| JamesJRH | licence. | 20:16 |
| JamesJRH | If they do that then the Fairphone will be my next phone – that's a given – and then I'll start porting NixOS to it and Hildon and Dalvik to NixOS until I have this ultimate system that I'm thinking of. :-) | 20:18 |
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| Wizzup_ | JamesJRH: good luck with that | 20:23 |
| Wizzup_ | I know someone who works on/at fairphone, iirc | 20:23 |
| bencoh | JamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway | 20:23 |
| Wizzup_ | If you want I can also relay some q's | 20:23 |
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| JamesJRH | 17:23:51 < bencoh> JamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway ← I also have a degree of doubt, but they definitely seem the sort of people who care about things, so it's definitely worth asking. It's one of those things where I'll put forward a case, give suggestions, and make a financial pledge, then just hope for the best and move on to something else. | 21:12 |
| JamesJRH | It may not have much impact but it's the best that I can do. | 21:13 |
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| JamesJRH | The financial pledge isn't massive in the overall scheme of things, though it's pretty big to me. I think I'll pledge 100£ + purchase of the next model if they achieve Respects Your Freedom status (https://fsf.org/ryf ), and pledge another 200£ if they meet the open-source hardware definition (http://oshwa.org/definition/ ). | 21:29 |
| JamesJRH | And if they publicly /pledge/ to aim for these upfront, then I'm happy to pay my pledges upfront too. | 21:30 |
| JamesJRH | Under the condition that they return the money if they fail to meet their pledge. | 21:30 |
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| JamesJRH | I'm a big supporter of prerelease funding models, in this case that's also predevelopment. | 21:32 |
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| JamesJRH | 17:23:51 < Wizzup_> If you want I can also relay some q's ← Yes please, that would be very helpful! I really hope that they can coöperate with other ethical values – I find it very disappointing when various ethical people ignore the ethical values of other ethical people! | 21:40 |
| JamesJRH | I'm trying really hard to combine environmental sustainabilty, libre software, open-source hardware, decentralisation (e.g. peer-to-peer, self-hosting, etc.), functional programming, and a couple of other things, into 1 coherent system. | 21:41 |
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| JamesJRH | Wizzup_: So anything that increases the chances of making progress in this respect is much appreciated. | 21:43 |
| KotCzarny | james, what about neo900? its also not a bad idea | 21:43 |
| L29Ah | wow, much ethical | 21:43 |
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| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: I have already had a lot of discussion in #neo900. I found out about it last week and was disappointed when I excitedly shared the finding with another channel, of which a couple of members shot it down for requiring blobs. I don't think that the Neo900 is currently on track for RYF, and definitely not for the OSH definition, but maybe something will change. | 21:48 |
| JamesJRH | L29Ah: :-D | 21:48 |
| KotCzarny | james, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs? | 21:48 |
| L29Ah | neo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical! | 21:49 |
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| KotCzarny | then google 9 dollar arm machine | 21:49 |
| L29Ah | i can't buy it cheaper than $29 | 21:50 |
| L29Ah | yet they advertise it being $9; 100% unethical | 21:50 |
| KotCzarny | hehe | 21:50 |
| KotCzarny | still, that's what google knows | 21:50 |
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| JamesJRH | 18:48:41 < KotCzarny> james, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs? ← I actually prefer it if blobs are held by the operating system and loaded, optionally, at runtime rather than embedded in the chip – it offers more potential for controlling the chip and writing a libre replacement firmware. | 21:54 |
| JamesJRH | However, what really bothers me about the issue is that if people who are to some degree ethical are working against each other then this is very bad, so I'm going to keep looking out for ways to pull things together. | 21:56 |
| KotCzarny | the only way would be starting own chip company | 21:56 |
| KotCzarny | its costly tho (resources, patents) | 21:57 |
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| JamesJRH | 18:49:19 < L29Ah> neo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical! ← The price makes it all the much more difficult to justify the lack of support for RYF and such. Though if they could gain the support of FSF supporters then they'd probably be able to plan for a higher quantity and reduce the price. | 21:59 |
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| JamesJRH | I know people who don't use a phone at all because there are any that are fully libre. The first phone to achieve RYF certification could get quite a lot of sales. | 22:02 |
| L29Ah | are their pants libre? | 22:03 |
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| JamesJRH | L29Ah: Probably. They're pretty religious libre supporters. I don't mind that; I just don't like it when they see the world in black and white and disregard the efforts of projects that aren't perfectly aligned with their views. | 22:06 |
| JamesJRH | I want to see more coöperation between ethical communities. | 22:07 |
| KotCzarny | first you would have to take money out of the project | 22:10 |
| JamesJRH | I think the FSF community is particularly bad at coöperation actually. I share the same goals as them but I have no faith in their strategic abilities. As a result, I've seeked an alternative, I prefer to support the Software Freedom Conservancy rather than the FSF. | 22:10 |
| JamesJRH | And I've been in #conservancy since FOSDEM this year where I met Karen Sandler. | 22:12 |
| JamesJRH | KotCzarny: I don't know what you mean? | 22:12 |
| KotCzarny | it wouldnt earn the money | 22:15 |
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| JamesJRH | L29Ah: Btw., my current project to combine those qualities is looking on track to get going within the next few weeks: Self-hosted website using a Haskell webserver running on NixOS GNU+Linux running on a BeagleBone Black running from my flat which is powered by renewable energy from Ecotricity, and it'll be served over a landline from Andrews & Arnold Ltd., a little ISP that respects digital | 22:24 |
| JamesJRH | rights. | 22:24 |
| JamesJRH | I also plan to loadbalance with a clone system at may parents' house and failover to the cell network if both landlines happen to fail simultaneously. | 22:27 |
| Wizzup_ | JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay) | 22:28 |
| KotCzarny | why haskel and not apache? | 22:31 |
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| JamesJRH | Also, 4G has just arrived here and it has faster upload capacity in my flat (~25Mb/s) than premium FTTC in here in Britain (20Mb/s maximum). FTTC isn't even yet available at my flat, though I think that it's planned for this year so it is likely to be here before I get any significant load. | 22:32 |
| L29Ah | why apache and not nginx? | 22:33 |
| KotCzarny | nginx could also work | 22:34 |
| KotCzarny | both are tested and tried | 22:34 |
| JamesJRH | 19:31:13 < KotCzarny> why haskel and not apache? ← Because functional programming is important for the future, so I'm not accepting any chicken–egg bullshit wrt. to its adoption. I'm just going to use functional programming and wait for others to catch-up. | 22:36 |
| KotCzarny | you would have to make functional machines first then | 22:37 |
| KotCzarny | or you are going to invent functional assembler too? | 22:38 |
| JamesJRH | 1 step at a time. ;-) | 22:38 |
| KotCzarny | c is there for a reason | 22:38 |
| KotCzarny | there were many languages | 22:38 |
| JamesJRH | For me though, that's not something I'm interested in. My next step will be using a Haskell shell and the Haskell text editor Yi Editor, when they're ready. | 22:40 |
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| L29Ah | haskell is poorly suited for shell tasks | 22:40 |
| L29Ah | and yi is quite ready to be used as vi | 22:40 |
| L29Ah | and if you don't write the functionality you need, no one will | 22:41 |
| JamesJRH | Yes, I'm willing to do that. This'll be a big part of my life eventually. | 22:42 |
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| JamesJRH | 19:40:43 < L29Ah> haskell is poorly suited for shell tasks ← There is much research about this and some interesting concepts. It may not be ready currently; the question is whether it can be less poorly suited to shell tasks than Bash, which is what I currently use. If it passes that threshold, I'll switch when I get time. | 22:45 |
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| JamesJRH | There are a number of shell utilities that I want to rewrite because I basically have to consult the manpage every time I use them, which takes time. grep, find, and xargs are examples, and I often find myself consulting the Bash manpage as well. I've been using these tools for years yet I still need to lookup the manpages for things that seem like they should be simpler. | 22:51 |
| KotCzarny | lol | 22:51 |
| L29Ah | install windows | 22:51 |
| KotCzarny | james, dont | 22:51 |
| L29Ah | i don't get how anything might be simpler than the existing utils + zsh completion | 22:52 |
| L29Ah | easier, i mean | 22:52 |
| JamesJRH | Like to use extended POSIX regular expressions with find, I need to pass this clobber: -regextype posix-extended -regex <expression> | 22:52 |
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| JamesJRH | And find options are vastly different to grep options, 2 tools which are complimentary for searching for stuff, and then there's shell globbing which is entirely different from regex altogether. | 22:55 |
| JamesJRH | With shell scripting I'm thinking too much about how to avoid side-effect bugs, and it's generally quite verbose, but unlike how verbosity can make things easier to understand or learn, this doesn't seem to be the case for sh-style shell scripts. | 22:59 |
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| JamesJRH | Using a Haskell shell is probably already beneficial for me, right now. I just need to get round to trying it out and learning it. | 23:00 |
| JamesJRH | 19:51:31 < KotCzarny> james, dont ← Heh, don't worry; I'm not planning to. It would be quite an odd thing to suddenly go from supporting and trying to progress libre software, to then go and install Windows. :-) | 23:03 |
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| JamesJRH | 19:28:16 < Wizzup_> JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay) ← I'm very busy tomorrow – a friend is doing an art exhibition of his life's work and in the evening I have a LUG to go to. I'll get back to you soon though. | 23:12 |
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| JamesJRH | However, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investing phone matters now to get a sense of direction with my plans and to get things in the pipeline. | 23:16 |
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| JamesJRH | s/investing/investigating/ | 23:24 |
| infobot | JamesJRH meant: However, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investigating phone matte... | 23:24 |
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| JamesJRH | L29Ah, KotCzarny, Wizzup_: Anyway, when I have my website up, I'll start publishing loads of good stuff. It'll be at http://jrhaigh.uk/ , but that's currently just a holding page with a short description. It'll document some of the things I've touched on in far more detail, and to begin with will probably be mostly oriented around the BeagleBone Black, NixOS, and the whole project around the | 23:37 |
| JamesJRH | website itself, but will eventually return to some topics that haven't received so much of my attention for a while, such as sustainable transport or peer-to-peer technology. | 23:39 |
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