IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2015-06-09

*** erlehmann has quit IRC00:10
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo00:11
*** at1as has quit IRC00:20
*** Kilroo has joined #maemo00:24
*** RiD has joined #maemo00:29
*** _rd has quit IRC00:41
*** Pali has quit IRC00:50
*** _rd has joined #maemo00:59
*** erlehmann_ has joined #maemo01:02
*** erlehmann has quit IRC01:04
*** erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann01:07
*** flo_lap has joined #maemo01:10
*** florian has quit IRC01:12
*** _rd has quit IRC01:19
*** louisdk has quit IRC01:34
*** heroux has quit IRC01:34
*** heroux has joined #maemo01:36
*** [1]abirazor has joined #maemo01:39
*** [1]abirazor has quit IRC01:42
*** futpib has quit IRC01:44
*** abirazor has joined #maemo01:44
*** abirazor has quit IRC01:53
*** M4rtinK has quit IRC01:58
*** norly has quit IRC02:13
*** L29Ah has left #maemo02:15
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo02:18
*** sparetire has quit IRC02:19
*** pentanol has joined #maemo02:27
*** KotCzarny_ has joined #maemo02:28
*** KotCzarny has quit IRC02:28
*** KotCzarny_ is now known as KotCzarny02:29
*** flo_lap has quit IRC02:38
*** noch^off has quit IRC02:49
*** RiD has quit IRC03:06
*** erlehmann has quit IRC03:15
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo03:16
*** heroux has quit IRC03:18
*** heroux has joined #maemo03:22
*** __LauRoman has joined #maemo03:45
*** _LauRoman has joined #maemo03:45
*** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC03:46
*** LauRoman has quit IRC03:49
*** Humpelst1lzchen has joined #maemo04:06
*** Humpelstilzchen has quit IRC04:08
*** erlehmann has quit IRC04:18
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo04:19
*** Kudos2me2 has joined #maemo04:30
*** beford has quit IRC04:32
*** Kudos2me2 has quit IRC04:33
*** HtheB_ has joined #maemo05:00
*** HtheB has quit IRC05:03
*** HtheB_ has quit IRC05:15
*** HtheB has joined #maemo05:15
*** HtheB has quit IRC05:23
*** Venusaur has quit IRC05:41
*** lxp has joined #maemo06:02
*** lxp1 has quit IRC06:04
*** SpeedEvil has quit IRC06:07
*** timeless has quit IRC06:07
*** SpeedEvil has joined #maemo06:07
*** mp_ has quit IRC06:20
*** protem has joined #maemo06:28
pentanolanyone around?06:44
*** Cor-Ai has quit IRC06:59
*** Cor-Ai has joined #maemo07:00
*** Venusaur has joined #maemo07:42
*** uuhimhere has joined #maemo08:16
*** _rd has joined #maemo08:17
*** zGrr has joined #maemo08:22
zGrrmoin :)08:23
*** _rd has quit IRC08:52
*** _rd has joined #maemo08:55
*** _rd has quit IRC09:06
*** noch^off has joined #maemo09:07
*** Pali has joined #maemo09:08
*** timeless has joined #maemo09:15
*** _rd has joined #maemo09:17
*** povbot has joined #maemo09:25
*** RzR has joined #maemo09:28
*** tanty_off is now known as tanty09:29
*** noch^off has quit IRC09:33
*** Pali has quit IRC09:34
*** rd_ has joined #maemo09:40
*** rd_ is now known as Guest2117209:40
*** M4rtinK has joined #maemo09:42
*** _rd has quit IRC09:43
*** XDS2010 has quit IRC09:53
*** Vajb has quit IRC09:59
*** Vajb has joined #maemo10:00
*** M4rtinK has quit IRC10:00
*** XDS2010 has joined #maemo10:09
*** florian_kc has joined #maemo10:10
*** Guest21172 has quit IRC10:16
*** Venusaur has quit IRC10:16
*** pentanol has quit IRC10:32
*** Venusaur has joined #maemo10:32
*** Haudegen has quit IRC10:40
*** florian_kc is now known as florian10:48
*** geaaru has joined #maemo10:49
*** skule has joined #maemo10:52
*** ad-n770 has joined #maemo10:57
*** eMHa_ has joined #maemo11:02
*** Haudegen has joined #maemo11:07
*** protem has quit IRC11:35
*** Kabouik has quit IRC12:11
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo12:12
*** erlehmann has quit IRC12:21
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo12:22
*** hubutm20 has quit IRC12:31
*** hubutm20 has joined #maemo12:32
*** erlehmann has left #maemo12:40
*** hubutm20 has quit IRC12:42
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo12:54
*** DeusIX1 has quit IRC13:08
*** Haudegen has quit IRC14:01
*** at1as has joined #maemo14:05
*** Raimu-X has quit IRC14:07
*** abirazor has joined #maemo14:08
*** zGrr has quit IRC14:19
*** Raimu has joined #maemo14:24
*** sparetire_ has quit IRC14:24
*** Haudegen has joined #maemo14:29
*** erlehmann has quit IRC14:30
*** Vajb has quit IRC14:34
*** _LauRoman has quit IRC14:35
JamesJRHIs there any chance that Maemo will be ported to the Fairphone?:
JamesJRHI'm thinking of supporting that.14:45
KotCzarnywhat for?14:45
KotCzarnywhich maemo features you like/need?14:46
JamesJRHI thinking that it's a prefunded phone, where the development is driven by preörders, so potentially they'd be willing to support libre software operating systems. They seem like an ethical company, but I haven't approached them yet.14:48
JamesJRHKotCzarny: I don't know; I haven't used Maemo before but I think I'll prefer it to Android.14:48
JamesJRHAlthough I would like it if I could still run Android applications so that I can still use those from F-Droid.14:49
JamesJRHActually, it's a social enterprise, not a company.14:49
JamesJRHSo basically founded and driven by social/ethical values.14:50
*** Vajb has joined #maemo14:51
KotCzarnyi would prefer more plain linux os14:51
JamesJRHKotCzarny: Can I run Maemo with zero proprietary software, including firmware blobs?14:51
KotCzarnyi think the phone parts miss openness14:51
JamesJRHKotCzarny: What do you mean by plain? You mean like proper GNU+Linux (as opposed to Android), or do you mean desktop-style? If the former, I thought that was Maemo; if the latter, how would you effectively use that on a phone?14:53
KotCzarnymaemo is deeply hacked desktop system14:55
JamesJRHFairphone's website barely mentions openness or technological freedom such as libre software but I'm going to contact them and ask whether that's something they'd be interested in.14:56
JamesJRHWell I like that it's a proper GNU+Linux distro.14:56
KotCzarnyif its not supported by mainline kernel there will be trouble in keeping it up to date14:58
*** HtheB has joined #maemo14:59
JamesJRHAah, this is relevant:
JamesJRHBut Maemo isn't mentioned; it appears that they did not consider it.15:01
JamesJRHOr even know about it.15:01
bencoh"There have been positive responses, but several fans have also urged us to look into alternatives: “Please use a different OS!” “Try Ubuntu or Firefox,” and even some hardcore techies asking for BSD and Plan 9 OS (I had to look those up!)."15:02
bencoh"Although, we stand by our choice of launching our first phone with a rootable Android OS"15:02
bencohdo you seriously expect them to use maemo ?15:02
bencoh(or even "know" about it)15:02
KotCzarnythey mentioned sailfish15:03
keriowhy would maemo be an option15:03
JamesJRHI don't consider Firefox OS any better than Android. Definitely not a complete GNU+Linux system. And Mozilla is very bad these days. I'm glad they chose Android over that.15:03
kerioit's hopelessly outdated15:03
keriowith no way to fix it15:03
KotCzarnybut seriously, if they make hardware open and os hackable15:03
KotCzarnythere is no need to worry15:03
*** N-Mi has quit IRC15:03
KotCzarnycommunity is good at it, if there is a way15:04
bencohsailfish received some kind of (tech-savvy) media coverage back in 201315:04
bencohespecially at WMC15:04
bencoh(and they basically need as many hw adopters as they can get)15:05
bencohJamesJRH: anyway, this is just (yet another) "androphone" with some closed single-chip shared-bus modem/cpu design15:06
bencohthey dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of"15:08
JamesJRH“Sailfish OS is the open source Linux […] mobile operating system combining […], the proprietary UI written by Jolla and other third parties components of any licences established by its authors and owners.” –
JamesJRHSailfish OS is definitely not something that I'd support.15:08
JamesJRHNot fully libre.15:08
bencohsailfish is definitely not libre :)15:08
JamesJRHApparently Replicant works on the Fairphone:
bencohcould work15:10
bencohhaving replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not always easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs15:10
infobotbencoh meant: having replicant work on some android device is "just" (no, that's not  easy) about removing/replacing closed-source blobs15:11
bencohoh and ... Paul Kocialkowski on May 6, 2015 at 11:03 am said:15:12
bencohI’m not going to port Replicant to the Fairphone at this point.15:12
JamesJRH12:08:03 < bencoh> they dont focus on "what's in the die" or "how does it work", but rather on "how is it produced/sourced/assembled/shipped/disposed of"  ← I understand this, but that's why I'm planning to contact them to try to make them realise that technological liberty is another important ethical consideration that they should take onboard.15:12
JamesJRHbencoh: Ah, I already have this article open. I should get on and read it. :-)15:14
*** at1as has quit IRC15:15
*** Haudegen has quit IRC15:20
JamesJRHThat page isn't nearly as long if you ‘Inspect Element’ and delete the div element that has id="comments". :-)15:20
xkr47JamesJRH, or by pasting this is the url field and hitting enter: javascript:document.getElementById('comments').remove();15:25
KotCzarnyadd that to bookmarks15:26
KotCzarnyits called scriptlets15:27
xkr47I thought it was called bookmarklet15:28
Wizzup_JamesJRH: sailfish has a libre core15:32
JamesJRHxkr47: Indeed. That looks right but it doesn't seem to do anything.15:34
KotCzarnythey should just go plain debian or something and make a theme and bunch of apps15:34
xkr47worked here15:34
xkr47omg they changed something!15:34
*** erlehmann has joined #maemo15:35
JamesJRHKotCzarny: Indeed; this could be very useful as a scriptlet (if I can make it work) because I expect that it'll work on all other WordPress sites, as well as many others too.15:36
*** N-Mi has joined #maemo15:38
JamesJRHWizzup_: I know. So does Mac OS (i.e. Darwin) and many other things. I want the freeïst system that I can get, and for what will be my next phone, this is looking pretty tricky.15:38
Wizzup_neomobile is free isn't it15:39
Wizzup_(does it still exist)15:39
JamesJRHHowever, they are designing a new Fairphone planned for the end of the year or so, so I'm going to contact them and see what they can do to do better.15:39
Wizzup_seperate modem.15:40
JamesJRHWizzup_: I also want the OS to be a proper GNU+Linux system (unlike Android) so this is why I'm interested in Maemo.15:41
Wizzup_jolla is gnu+linux15:41
KotCzarnymaemo is old15:41
KotCzarnyawfully old15:41
Wizzup_(I'm not saying jolla is the best thing ever, I am just clearing some things up)15:41
Wizzup_KotCzarny: yes, but it can be updated...15:41
Wizzup_That is what some people are doing, as well15:42
bencohnemo still exists15:44
bencohbut it's more like a mer+glacierUI combination these days15:44
*** Haudegen has joined #maemo15:45
KotCzarnyxkr47: in the long run stuff gets unsupported, so its nice if you can drop new things easily15:47
xkr47JamesJRH if you always want to apply that, you can use "greasemonkey" plugin that can automatically run scripts like that15:50
xkr47JamesJRH or you can use firefox "Stylish" plugin and create a CSS rule like #comment { display: none; }15:50
KotCzarnyxkr47: its not effective15:51
KotCzarnyie. you would have to eneable it for *15:51
*** erlehmann has quit IRC15:55
JamesJRH12:41:32 < Wizzup_> jolla is gnu+linux  ← GNU+Linux is libre; Jolla is not.15:59
JamesJRHxkr47: I finally got it working… sort of. After reading , it turns out that JavaScript URLs have been disable since Firefox 6. However, the workaround is actually to make a bookmarklet anyway: “You need a bookmarklet or an add-on for a workaround.”16:05
*** [1]abirazor has joined #maemo16:09
JamesJRHxkr47: However, it's not trivial to make a bookmark of something I can't access then press Ctrl-D, so I had to read to find out that I have to drag the URL onto the bookmarks toolbar.16:10
KotCzarnyhmm,i think they work as a bookmarklets16:10
*** abirazor has quit IRC16:11
JamesJRHI don't have or want that toolbar to be shown and there doesn't seem to be a way to edit a new bookmark from scratch, but I realise that the same thing works by dragging into the ‘Show All Bookmarks’ window into e.g. the ‘Bookmarks Menu’ section.16:12
KotCzarnyyou can click 'new bookmark' then just enter code16:13
KotCzarnycant check the syntax tho, got it on my lappy16:13
KotCzarnybut definitely working16:13
JamesJRHSo I now have the bookmarklet in my bookmarks – only thing is, whereas I normally access all bookmarks from the URL bar, the bookmarklet still refuses to be activate from here. I literally have to select it from the bookmarks menu. Oh well, it's probably still a bit quicker than inspecting the page.16:16
JamesJRHKotCzarny: I don't see ‘new bookmark’ anywhere in Firefox.16:17
KotCzarnyopen bookmarks16:17
JamesJRHFrom the context menu!16:18
JamesJRH‘New Bookmark...’16:18
JamesJRHOkay, and if I make a new folder, ‘bookmarklets’, at the top then that'll save them from getting lost in my many, many bookmarks (which, aside from this 1 folder, and tags, I don't organise but just search through the Firefox ‘Awesomebar’). This will now be several times quicker than inspecting element! Thank you xkr47 and KotCzarny! :-)16:24
xkr47automation to the rescue16:30
KotCzarnyfirefox ftw16:30
JamesJRHAhaa! Nah, scrap that folder idea – I tried setting a keyword, ‘kc’ (standing for ‘kill comments’), and it worked from the Awesomebar! This is now extremely faster than before, taking an insignificant amount of time!16:39
JamesJRHI didn't like the folder idea. That was the first bookmark folder that I'd made in years. I simply don't use bookmark folders; I find that I can't organise things as tree structures easily (my filesystem is a mess, btw.). I've deleted the ‘bookmarklets’ folder in favour of a ‘bookmarklet’ tag, instead.16:42
KotCzarnythey are nice in the bookmark toolbar16:43
KotCzarnyie. you can put all youtube links in one folder16:43
KotCzarnyand ebay links in another, etc16:44
*** at1as has joined #maemo16:47
*** xorly has joined #maemo16:49
*** xorly has quit IRC16:51
JamesJRHKotCzarny: I don't use the toolbar; I access all bookmarks from the Awesomebar by typing and hitting tab. Probably over 90% of my human interface input to my laptops is via the keyboard, followed by the pointing stick which is at least inline with touch-typing, followed by the inductive tablet stylus (my laptop's are ThinkPad X60 Tablets).16:52
*** xorly has joined #maemo16:52
JamesJRHAnything that can be easily done by only typing, such as tagging and accessing bookmarks, I prefer.16:52
*** xorly has quit IRC16:53
JamesJRHI even use a USB ThinkPad keyboard with my Android smartphone via a little USB OTG adaptor cable.16:54
*** xorly has joined #maemo16:54
KotCzarnytrackpoint ftw16:54
JamesJRHIt's really cool how a little pointer appears on my phone when I move the pointing device. :-)16:56
*** xorly has quit IRC17:02
*** xorly has joined #maemo17:03
*** konelix__ has joined #maemo17:15
*** Kabouik_ has joined #maemo17:17
*** florian has quit IRC17:18
*** Kabouik has quit IRC17:20
JamesJRHKotCzarny: Also, this is useful if I have my laptop with me but not the USB keyboard:
JamesJRHI frequently use USB tethering, so security shouldn't be and issue, though I'd like it if it had a way to restrict access to only the USB tethering network interface.17:32
JamesJRHan issue*17:32
KotCzarnywrite to the author?17:33
JamesJRHI'll put it on my todo list. Alternatively I could submit a patch; it should be a simple thing to do.17:34
KotCzarnyhe he17:34
KotCzarnythose 'it should be simple' sometimes require total rewrite17:35
*** noch^off has joined #maemo17:35
JamesJRHIt doesn't quite make the USB ThinkPad keyboard redundant, though, because it's lacking a way to capture and transmit pointer movement. This, however, is way beyond my ability and may not even be possible within the Android APIs. USB HID is supported, but for an application to send pointer events to the system without a standard, I expect root access would be required.17:38
*** at1as has quit IRC17:38
JamesJRHKotCzarny: No, it should be just a few lines of code. Also, other applications in F-Droid are capable of binding to a specific interface, so if I get stuck I should just find a relevant sample and learn from that.17:40
JamesJRHThe few lines of code will mostly be for making it optional – if I just wanted to hardcode it in such that it's not even an option, it may be a matter of just changing a single existing line.17:42
*** noch has joined #maemo17:46
JamesJRHIt currently binds to interface (i.e. any). Changing that to, the address that my phone always uses for USB tethering, will cause it to only listen on the tethered network, of which only 1 device (my laptop) is connected.17:46
*** noch^off has quit IRC17:48
*** noch has quit IRC17:55
JamesJRHFor me at least, WiFi hotspot always listens on, so it shouldn't accidently be accessible on WiFi. I.e. it's fixed, not random/dynamic. I don't know for Bluetooth tethering because I don't use it, but I expect that it'll also be fixed to a nonconflicting address.17:57
*** [1]abirazor has quit IRC18:02
*** at1as has joined #maemo18:12
*** noch has joined #maemo18:13
JamesJRHOption-wise, at the bare minimum I could make it allow the user to specify the IP address of the interface, giving as an example in the caption, but it would be preferable to go by interface names and list the current interfaces.18:13
JamesJRHI want to learn to write applications for Maemo/Hildon.18:15
JamesJRHSo anyway, back to what I was saying before.18:16
JamesJRH12:03:29 < kerio> with no way to fix it  ← Why?18:16
KotCzarnyjames, do you know how to write apps for gtk/qt ?18:16
L29AhJamesJRH: because it takes a lot of manpower to keep the whole distro up to date18:17
JamesJRHI've dabbled, but I need to give it another go.18:17
JamesJRHKotCzarny: ^18:17
kerioJamesJRH: not enough people, some fundamental closed stuff that requires old infrastructure18:17
*** robink has quit IRC18:19
JamesJRHL29Ah: I'm not actually that interested in the distro, just the top layer, the interface that the applications require that are specific to touchscreens and phones. I actually want to run NixOS on whatever my next phone will be and package and write touch-based applications for that.18:19
*** Win7Mac has joined #maemo18:19
L29Ahyou have xorg18:20
JamesJRHAnd I'm not just after touch-based, I'd also like to use it as a normal NixOS desktop when plugged-in to a keyboard and bigger screen.18:20
L29Ahwhat else are you interested in?18:20
KotCzarnymaemo has some deep system hacks18:21
L29Ahthe gsm part is quite closed unless you bump the kernel and use ofono18:21
bencohhmm ?18:21
JamesJRH15:20:43 < L29Ah> what else are you interested in?  ← Well, when not using as a desktop, I'd like some touch-oriented interfaces including the ability to run Android applications, such as those from F-Droid.18:22
*** noch^off has joined #maemo18:22
L29Ahso, xorg18:22
bencohL29Ah: one could keep cmtspeech with the current cmt driver18:22
L29Ahthere's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair18:23
*** Win7Mac has left #maemo18:23
*** robink_ has joined #maemo18:23
L29Ahbut i guess you won't want to run android stuff on an A8 with 256Mb of ram18:24
*** noch has quit IRC18:25
JamesJRHParticularly, a dialer, SMS messenging, an email client (e.g. K-9 Mail), a web browser, a camera application (e.g. Open Camera), OsmAnd, and my application Hexiano.18:25
*** louisdk has joined #maemo18:26
JamesJRH15:23:04 < L29Ah> there's android sdk that allows you to run android stuff in a xorg window afair  ← Yes, but it's emulated rather than native. It should be possible to run Dalvik directly, but I've no idea.18:27
L29AhARM is not a Java machine, you know18:31
bencohosmand would be dead slow on n90018:31
* L29Ah misses osmand ._.18:31
bencohL29Ah: but ... it's so slow !18:32
bencoheven on "modern" android phones18:32
L29Ahosmand on a9 is faster than navit on n90018:32
L29Ahand osmand can do height lines18:32
KotCzarnyopengl would be perfect for map stuff18:35
L29AhAn OpenGL renderer for Mapbox Vector Tiles, consisting of a C++ library for OS X and Linux and SDK bindings for iOS and Android.18:37
L29Ahwat mapwat18:37
L29Ahcan i haz osm?18:37
JamesJRH15:32:05 < bencoh> L29Ah: but ... it's so slow !  15:32:16 < bencoh> even on "modern" android phones  ← I've noticed that OsmAnd has got much faster in the last few months.18:41
JamesJRHIt was slow on my old LG Optimus 3D, frequently taking over 10s to render the screen, and it was just as slow when I got my Sony Xperia Z1, presumably because it had more pixels, but it has since become a lot faster, I think because it's making better use of the GPU now (hardware accelleration didn't seem to make a difference a while back).18:41
JamesJRH15:31:42 < bencoh> osmand would be dead slow on n900  ← Maemo shouldn't have to be confined to the N900; I'd like to run GNU+Linux and Hildon on newer devices such as, potentially, the Fairphone that I mentioned earlier.18:45
*** xorly has quit IRC18:48
*** Guest21172 has joined #maemo18:49
KotCzarnyi always say, good gtk/qt theme, and you wouldnt see much difference18:49
JamesJRH15:35:12 < KotCzarny> opengl would be perfect for map stuff  ← OsmAnd has an ‘General settings’ option, ‘Use OpenGL rendering’, which nowadays is enabled by default. When I started using OsmAnd a few years ago, I think it either didn't exist yet or was an experimental feature with a caption something like the typical ‘Use at your own risk!’, disabled by default.18:50
JamesJRHKotCzarny: Difference to what?18:51
KotCzarnydifference to maemo18:51
JamesJRHIs that all? I'd have thought that multitouch support would require more than just a theme.18:52
bencohn900 is singletouch, and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far18:53
KotCzarnyyou can simulate two-touch on singletouch devic3s18:53
bencoh(not saying it cant, just that it doesnt)18:54
*** Pali has joined #maemo18:54
*** at1as has quit IRC18:54
KotCzarnyand i think newer xorg input library has multitouch support18:55
KotCzarnyso its up to the applications to use it18:55
JamesJRH“frequently taking over 10s” (on both my Optimus 3D and Xperia Z1.)  ← Btw., I forgot to say that OsmAnd now renders mostly in under 1 or 2 seconds on my Z1, so 10× quicker than earlier versions. I haven't tried updating on my old phone yet though.18:59
*** mp_ has joined #maemo18:59
JamesJRHRight. :-/18:59
JamesJRH“and maemo doesnt run on multitouch devices thus far”  ← I didn't realise. So Maemo's UI really isn't much more than a themed desktop application with bigger buttons. :-/19:01
KotCzarnywell, it is much more19:03
JamesJRHI want to write new mobile applications that use multitouch, and I'm holding back until I settle on a platform that I'm happy to commit time to learning it.19:03
KotCzarnybut those parts are hardly movable19:03
KotCzarnyjames, read abot lib xi multitouch19:03
*** Kabouik_ has quit IRC19:07
KotCzarnyalso, read what is multitouch support in gtk/qt (and maybe some rarer toolkits)19:08
*** louisdk has quit IRC19:11
*** robink_ is now known as robink19:11
JamesJRHOkay, I'd like to form an interface on NixOS that is able to run Hildon, Qt, and Android applications (as well as display a normal desktop environment when connected to a keyboard and monitor). This may seem ambitious, but I have patience for this goal.19:13
JamesJRHThe question I think boils down to whether I should learn to develop for Hildon or Qt. I use Gnome and Gtk applications more than Qt applications, so maybe I should go with Hildon for mobile and Gtk for desktop applications.19:15
*** noch^off has quit IRC19:19
KotCzarnyhildon uses gtk i think19:20
KotCzarnyi may be wrong tho19:20
*** vakkov_ has quit IRC19:22
JamesJRHKotCzarny: That's what I mean. If I'm using a lot of Gtk software I might as well learn Gtk, and if I'm going to learn Gtk I might as well learn Hildon.19:22
L29Ahldd mentions glib stuff but no gtk19:22
L29Ahis hildon open source?19:23
JamesJRHGNU LGPL.19:23
KotCzarnythen just port ubuntu and use hildon port for ubuntu?19:24
bencohthere is (used to be) a project to for hildon on debian/ubuntu/desktops19:24
JamesJRHKotCzarny: To what?19:25
KotCzarnyl29ah: there is hildongtk+ library19:25
KotCzarnyjames: to your device of choice?19:25
JamesJRHI'm going to use NixOS.19:25
JamesJRHI'll package Hildon for it, if that's what I decide.19:25
JamesJRHWhich is seemly likely now.19:26
L29Ahi wonder if it less dead than matchbox19:26
bencohsee cordia19:26
bencohoh and ...
JamesJRH16:26:03 < bencoh> see cordia  ← Searching for this doesn't get anywhere. Do you have a link?19:27
JamesJRHOh, the video mentions it.19:28
*** louisdk has joined #maemo19:29
*** heroux has quit IRC19:30
*** louisdk has quit IRC19:36
*** vakkov_ has joined #maemo19:37
*** L29Ah has left #maemo19:43
*** L29Ah has joined #maemo19:46
JamesJRHThere's quite a bit about multitouch on this blog:
KotCzarnygtk 3.4 and later supports multitouch and kinetic scrolling19:53
JamesJRHThis video is interesting:
JamesJRHI like the way that multiple sliders can be adjusted whilst also still being able to move the rectangles.19:58
JamesJRHThat video's out-of-date, though. I guess that's all standard now in Gtk 3.4 and later.19:59
JamesJRH“This turns the multitouch GTK+ branch into a suitable candidate for GTK+ 3.4, […]”  ← Okay, so yes. That must have been what happened.20:01
*** ad-n770 has quit IRC20:04
JamesJRHRight, I'll mess around with the Gtk demos at some point and see whether I can write a multitouch application in Haskell. From there, I'll think about rewriting Hexiano to be purely-functional, but in the mean time I have ideas for a number of smaller applications that I'll start out with.20:07
*** Haudegen has quit IRC20:07
*** qt_junkie has joined #maemo20:08
*** RiD has joined #maemo20:10
JamesJRHOkay, so I'm now going to contact Fairphone and see what they say about technological liberty. I hope they can see the importance in fitting it in with their other ethical values. I'm going to persuade them to make sure that their next model will be blob-free and supported by Replicant, as well as them releasing all of the hardware designs that are under their control under an open hardware20:16
JamesJRHIf they do that then the Fairphone will be my next phone – that's a given – and then I'll start porting NixOS to it and Hildon and Dalvik to NixOS until I have this ultimate system that I'm thinking of. :-)20:18
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo20:19
Wizzup_JamesJRH: good luck with that20:23
Wizzup_I know someone who works on/at fairphone, iirc20:23
bencohJamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway20:23
Wizzup_If you want I can also relay some q's20:23
*** Guest21172 has quit IRC20:31
*** Haudegen has joined #maemo20:34
*** vakkov_ has quit IRC20:48
*** M4rtinK has joined #maemo20:49
*** vakkov_ has joined #maemo20:50
*** louisdk has joined #maemo20:58
*** geaaru has quit IRC21:02
JamesJRH17:23:51 < bencoh> JamesJRH: I highly doubt they'll do anything about hardware but good luck anyway  ← I also have a degree of doubt, but they definitely seem the sort of people who care about things, so it's definitely worth asking. It's one of those things where I'll put forward a case, give suggestions, and make a financial pledge, then just hope for the best and move on to something else.21:12
JamesJRHIt may not have much impact but it's the best that I can do.21:13
*** M4rtinK has quit IRC21:14
*** HtheB_ has joined #maemo21:22
*** RedW has quit IRC21:25
*** HtheB has quit IRC21:26
JamesJRHThe financial pledge isn't massive in the overall scheme of things, though it's pretty big to me. I think I'll pledge 100£ + purchase of the next model if they achieve Respects Your Freedom status ( ), and pledge another 200£ if they meet the open-source hardware definition ( ).21:29
JamesJRHAnd if they publicly /pledge/ to aim for these upfront, then I'm happy to pay my pledges upfront too.21:30
JamesJRHUnder the condition that they return the money if they fail to meet their pledge.21:30
*** RedW has joined #maemo21:31
JamesJRHI'm a big supporter of prerelease funding models, in this case that's also predevelopment.21:32
*** japa-fi_ has left #maemo21:38
JamesJRH17:23:51 < Wizzup_> If you want I can also relay some q's  ← Yes please, that would be very helpful! I really hope that they can coöperate with other ethical values – I find it very disappointing when various ethical people ignore the ethical values of other ethical people!21:40
JamesJRHI'm trying really hard to combine environmental sustainabilty, libre software, open-source hardware, decentralisation (e.g. peer-to-peer, self-hosting, etc.), functional programming, and a couple of other things, into 1 coherent system.21:41
*** stryngs is now known as MCstryngs21:42
*** MCstryngs is now known as stryngs21:42
JamesJRHWizzup_: So anything that increases the chances of making progress in this respect is much appreciated.21:43
KotCzarnyjames, what about neo900? its also not a bad idea21:43
L29Ahwow, much ethical21:43
*** auenfx4 has quit IRC21:43
*** Guest21172 has joined #maemo21:46
*** auenf has joined #maemo21:46
JamesJRHKotCzarny: I have already had a lot of discussion in #neo900. I found out about it last week and was disappointed when I excitedly shared the finding with another channel, of which a couple of members shot it down for requiring blobs. I don't think that the Neo900 is currently on track for RYF, and definitely not for the OSH definition, but maybe something will change.21:48
JamesJRHL29Ah: :-D21:48
KotCzarnyjames, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs?21:48
L29Ahneo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical!21:49
*** Haudegen has quit IRC21:49
KotCzarnythen google 9 dollar arm machine21:49
L29Ahi can't buy it cheaper than $2921:50
L29Ahyet they advertise it being $9; 100% unethical21:50
KotCzarnystill, that's what google knows21:50
*** futpib has joined #maemo21:51
JamesJRH18:48:41 < KotCzarny> james, honestly, is there any arm machine without blobs?  ← I actually prefer it if blobs are held by the operating system and loaded, optionally, at runtime rather than embedded in the chip – it offers more potential for controlling the chip and writing a libre replacement firmware.21:54
JamesJRHHowever, what really bothers me about the issue is that if people who are to some degree ethical are working against each other then this is very bad, so I'm going to keep looking out for ways to pull things together.21:56
KotCzarnythe only way would be starting own chip company21:56
KotCzarnyits costly tho (resources, patents)21:57
*** norly has joined #maemo21:58
*** RiD has quit IRC21:59
JamesJRH18:49:19 < L29Ah> neo900 is expensive as hell, certainly unethical!  ← The price makes it all the much more difficult to justify the lack of support for RYF and such. Though if they could gain the support of FSF supporters then they'd probably be able to plan for a higher quantity and reduce the price.21:59
*** florian has joined #maemo22:01
JamesJRHI know people who don't use a phone at all because there are any that are fully libre. The first phone to achieve RYF certification could get quite a lot of sales.22:02
L29Ahare their pants libre?22:03
*** Guest21172 has quit IRC22:03
JamesJRHL29Ah: Probably. They're pretty religious libre supporters. I don't mind that; I just don't like it when they see the world in black and white and disregard the efforts of projects that aren't perfectly aligned with their views.22:06
JamesJRHI want to see more coöperation between ethical communities.22:07
KotCzarnyfirst you would have to take money out of the project22:10
JamesJRHI think the FSF community is particularly bad at coöperation actually. I share the same goals as them but I have no faith in their strategic abilities. As a result, I've seeked an alternative, I prefer to support the Software Freedom Conservancy rather than the FSF.22:10
JamesJRHAnd I've been in #conservancy since FOSDEM this year where I met Karen Sandler.22:12
JamesJRHKotCzarny: I don't know what you mean?22:12
KotCzarnyit wouldnt earn the money22:15
*** Haudegen has joined #maemo22:16
*** freemangordon has quit IRC22:16
*** tanty is now known as tanty_off22:24
JamesJRHL29Ah: Btw., my current project to combine those qualities is looking on track to get going within the next few weeks: Self-hosted website using a Haskell webserver running on NixOS GNU+Linux running on a BeagleBone Black running from my flat which is powered by renewable energy from Ecotricity, and it'll be served over a landline from Andrews & Arnold Ltd., a little ISP that respects digital22:24
JamesJRHI also plan to loadbalance with a clone system at may parents' house and failover to the cell network if both landlines happen to fail simultaneously.22:27
Wizzup_JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay)22:28
KotCzarnywhy haskel and not apache?22:31
*** Guest21172 has joined #maemo22:32
JamesJRHAlso, 4G has just arrived here and it has faster upload capacity in my flat (~25Mb/s) than premium FTTC in here in Britain (20Mb/s maximum). FTTC isn't even yet available at my flat, though I think that it's planned for this year so it is likely to be here before I get any significant load.22:32
L29Ahwhy apache and not nginx?22:33
KotCzarnynginx could also work22:34
KotCzarnyboth are tested and tried22:34
JamesJRH19:31:13 < KotCzarny> why haskel and not apache?  ← Because functional programming is important for the future, so I'm not accepting any chicken–egg bullshit wrt. to its adoption. I'm just going to use functional programming and wait for others to catch-up.22:36
KotCzarnyyou would have to make functional machines first then22:37
KotCzarnyor you are going to invent functional assembler too?22:38
JamesJRH1 step at a time. ;-)22:38
KotCzarnyc is there for a reason22:38
KotCzarnythere were many languages22:38
JamesJRHFor me though, that's not something I'm interested in. My next step will be using a Haskell shell and the Haskell text editor Yi Editor, when they're ready.22:40
*** louisdk has quit IRC22:40
L29Ahhaskell is poorly suited for shell tasks22:40
L29Ahand yi is quite ready to be used as vi22:40
L29Ahand if you don't write the functionality you need, no one will22:41
JamesJRHYes, I'm willing to do that. This'll be a big part of my life eventually.22:42
*** mp_ has quit IRC22:45
JamesJRH19:40:43 < L29Ah> haskell is poorly suited for shell tasks  ← There is much research about this and some interesting concepts. It may not be ready currently; the question is whether it can be less poorly suited to shell tasks than Bash, which is what I currently use. If it passes that threshold, I'll switch when I get time.22:45
*** eMHa_ has quit IRC22:50
JamesJRHThere are a number of shell utilities that I want to rewrite because I basically have to consult the manpage every time I use them, which takes time. grep, find, and xargs are examples, and I often find myself consulting the Bash manpage as well. I've been using these tools for years yet I still need to lookup the manpages for things that seem like they should be simpler.22:51
L29Ahinstall windows22:51
KotCzarnyjames, dont22:51
L29Ahi don't get how anything might be simpler than the existing utils + zsh completion22:52
L29Aheasier, i mean22:52
JamesJRHLike to use extended POSIX regular expressions with find, I need to pass this clobber: -regextype posix-extended -regex <expression>22:52
*** mavhc has quit IRC22:54
JamesJRHAnd find options are vastly different to grep options, 2 tools which are complimentary for searching for stuff, and then there's shell globbing which is entirely different from regex altogether.22:55
JamesJRHWith shell scripting I'm thinking too much about how to avoid side-effect bugs, and it's generally quite verbose, but unlike how verbosity can make things easier to understand or learn, this doesn't seem to be the case for sh-style shell scripts.22:59
*** mavhc has joined #maemo22:59
JamesJRHUsing a Haskell shell is probably already beneficial for me, right now. I just need to get round to trying it out and learning it.23:00
JamesJRH19:51:31 < KotCzarny> james, dont  ← Heh, don't worry; I'm not planning to. It would be quite an odd thing to suddenly go from supporting and trying to progress libre software, to then go and install Windows. :-)23:03
*** at1as has joined #maemo23:10
*** konelix__ has quit IRC23:11
*** muppeth has quit IRC23:12
JamesJRH19:28:16 < Wizzup_> JamesJRH: (on n900 atm - ack, ping me tomorrow ansd I can relay)  ← I'm very busy tomorrow – a friend is doing an art exhibition of his life's work and in the evening I have a LUG to go to. I'll get back to you soon though.23:12
*** konelix__ has joined #maemo23:13
JamesJRHHowever, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investing phone matters now to get a sense of direction with my plans and to get things in the pipeline.23:16
*** HtheB_ has quit IRC23:18
*** HtheB has joined #maemo23:18
*** at1as has quit IRC23:20
*** at1as has joined #maemo23:21
*** ccnnjj has quit IRC23:21
*** RedW has quit IRC23:22
infobotJamesJRH meant: However, once I've made contact with Fairphone and gone as far as I can on this matter, I'm likely to fall silent for months and just focus on more immediate tasks such as those relating to NixOS on the BeagleBone Black. I'm only investigating phone matte...23:24
*** RedW has joined #maemo23:28
*** muppeth has joined #maemo23:30
*** sparetire_ has joined #maemo23:31
JamesJRHL29Ah, KotCzarny, Wizzup_: Anyway, when I have my website up, I'll start publishing loads of good stuff. It'll be at , but that's currently just a holding page with a short description. It'll document some of the things I've touched on in far more detail, and to begin with will probably be mostly oriented around the BeagleBone Black, NixOS, and the whole project around the23:37
JamesJRHwebsite itself, but will eventually return to some topics that haven't received so much of my attention for a while, such as sustainable transport or peer-to-peer technology.23:39
*** at1as has quit IRC23:43

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!