IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2014-07-27

« Saturday, 2014-07-26 Index Monday, 2014-07-28 »
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b1101anyone know how much the cost of creating one n900 device was ?01:32
b1101I'm just curious if making a hardware keyboard is more expensive than a high quality screen01:33
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jon_yI got some 2450 mAh batteries, I remember the N900 needs some hacks in order to properly use the capacity06:58
jon_yanybody remember it?06:58
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DocScrutinizer05jon_y: never heard of hacks needed11:59
rZrhi DocScrutinizer0511:59
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DocScrutinizer05you will need several learning cycles for bq27200 to calibrate it to the new battery capacity. But then bq27200 is mostly irrelevant and orphaned12:00
DocScrutinizer05hi RzR12:00
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jonwilhi12:10
DocScrutinizer05hi jonwil12:12
APicgoldkatze: *plush*12:12
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's not orphaned if you use pali's stuff13:23
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DocScrutinizer05hm?13:50
DocScrutinizer05sorry, my context stack got cleared since whatever you refer to13:51
DocScrutinizer05aah13:51
DocScrutinizer05yeah, pali's "bme" is using bq2720013:51
DocScrutinizer05alas it seems it's sometmes relying on bq27200 a tad too much13:53
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goldkatzeAPic: :-)14:43
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: untrue :v15:19
keriohell, it relies on it too little15:19
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kerioit "prefers" the bogus data from rx51-battery if it's available15:20
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DocScrutinizer05maybe. I haven't had a too close look into all that15:25
DocScrutinizer05let's agree on "it doesn't care too much about status of data being bogus, irrespective of the data source"?15:27
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall I suggested an embedded aka in-band flag for tagging probably bogus data, by e.g. setting least significant digit of capacity-now to an impair value (aka "set LSB to 1")15:31
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DocScrutinizer05and vice versa set LSB to 0 as long as data source is considered accurate15:32
DocScrutinizer05iirc the reporting unit is µAh, so you could actually encode a 999 different error codes into least significant three decimals15:33
DocScrutinizer05an "error" of 0.999mAh introduced by such sheme for sure is negligible15:35
DocScrutinizer05scheme*15:35
bencohmAh ?15:37
DocScrutinizer05?15:37
bencohhm nevermind, misread something15:37
DocScrutinizer05a "educated" battery applet or whatever could use such in-band flag to adapt the capacity display accordingly - e.g. change color from green to yellow or orange when data source got reported as unreliable/bogus/inaccurate aka least significant bit = 115:41
DocScrutinizer05while an "ignorant" stock battery applet will happily display the value no matter if LSB=1 or 015:42
DocScrutinizer05with a tad of luck it shows the complete numeric value to user who then can get educated and see that this value is uneven15:43
DocScrutinizer05while such approach isn't exactly nice and clean, it has a big advantage of being 100% backward compatible15:46
DocScrutinizer05and doesn't introduce any nasty API changes15:46
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jon_yDocScrutinizer05: can the stock n900 battery manager work with the 2450mAh batteries?17:29
kerio"work with"17:31
kerioit's not like the standard fuel gauge is better than an educated guess17:31
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jon_ykerio: I mean I can at least tell when it needs charging17:37
jon_yor when it is full17:37
kerioi guess so, yeah17:37
kerioit should detect when it's full17:37
kerioit will probably show it's a lot emptier than it actually is, however17:37
jon_yhmm ok, will it kill the battery when charged way too often?17:38
kerioit shouldn't17:42
keriobut, you know17:42
kerioyou lose the benefits of the bigger battery17:42
DocScrutinizer05basicaly no *real* problems with bigger battery17:45
DocScrutinizer05your battery remaining capacity indicator might be terribly off, but that doesn't have any impact on neither charging nor discharging to empty17:46
DocScrutinizer05worst case you get recurring "battery empty" warnings for hours17:46
DocScrutinizer05which can annoy a lot but usually doesn't really break anything17:47
bencohsounds terrible :D17:47
DocScrutinizer05both charging termination as well as system shutdown on battery empty are based on monitoring the voltage of the battery, and that will work regardless of the battery capacity that any chip estimates17:49
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DocScrutinizer05(charging termination actually gets detected from charging current the battery takes. When charging current drops under a certain threshold, the bq24150 charger chip detects that and changes state and operation mode to "battery full"))17:51
jon_ywell, I like to have some emergency backup :)17:51
DocScrutinizer05hmm?17:52
jon_yso empty battery doesn't actually mean empty17:52
jon_yI guess charge time would also take longer17:53
DocScrutinizer05yes, of course17:53
keriojon_y: just calibrate bq27k17:53
kerioand install the bme replacement17:53
DocScrutinizer05jon_y: or don't17:54
keriodo eeet17:54
jon_ydoes bq27k calibration affect software or hardware?17:54
kerioyes17:55
jon_yboth?17:55
kerioneither, really17:55
kerioit can affect optional software17:55
jon_yjust wondering if the calibration is permanent17:56
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kerionope17:56
DocScrutinizer05bq27200 just monitors how much capacity the cell delivers, and it may store the amount of capacity delivered by battery when battery discharge voltage gets reached17:56
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keriohardware-mandated deprecation17:57
kerioyou're supposed to calibrate it ~regularly17:57
jon_yoh ok17:57
jon_yis that the script you run from a special boot up mode?17:57
DocScrutinizer05there's no such thing like calibration, it just adapts its idea of how much capacity the battery might have17:57
jon_yor am I confused with something else17:57
keriono no17:58
keriocalibration is just charging until full, then discharging until empty17:58
DocScrutinizer05no17:58
kerioD:17:59
keriowat17:59
DocScrutinizer05"calibration" just stores the measured capacity after a continuous discharge of a fully charged battery17:59
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jon_yso, can I do this while keeping the phone online?18:00
DocScrutinizer05yes18:00
jon_yoh ok, can't know when urgent calls come in18:00
jon_ywhere's the calibration script?18:01
DocScrutinizer05it basically happens automatically, though often bme shuts down the device before battery got discharged far enough for bq27200 chip to detect full discharge18:01
jon_yhow far off does the bq27200's idea of a full discharge go?18:01
jon_y2000mAh?18:01
DocScrutinizer05my script disables bme and waits for bq27200 to "learn", then re-enables bme so your phone's battery gets charged again18:02
jon_yiirc the stock batteris are ~1300mAh18:02
kerioEDV1 is assumed to be 6% of the full charge18:02
DocScrutinizer05but you don't really need such script to make bq27200 learn. Eventually it will learn while you pretty normally use up your battery until phone shuts down18:03
jon_yoh, so I do have to wait for it to power off from low battery?18:03
kerionot necessarily18:04
keriobut it's the simplest way18:04
DocScrutinizer05err, yes, when you don't use my script, that is the best and probably only way to make bq27200 learn the battery capacity eventually18:04
jon_yok, where is the link to your script?18:05
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if there's maybe a trick to teach bq27200 about assumed capacity, via commands from software side18:06
jon_y~bme18:06
infobotsomebody said bme was http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME18:06
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/calibrate-bq27k.sh18:06
DocScrutinizer05will need a few other packages18:07
DocScrutinizer05particularly18:07
DocScrutinizer05~bq27k-detail18:07
infobotsomebody said bq27k-detail was http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27k-detail218:07
DocScrutinizer05and thatz one needs i2ctools18:08
jon_yok, thanks18:08
DocScrutinizer05and iirc they all need bash18:08
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jon_yare the 2 scripts similar?18:09
DocScrutinizer05oh wait, prolly it needs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27200.sh18:09
DocScrutinizer05which shouldn't need bash18:09
jon_yhow do I use bq27200.sh?18:10
jon_ylet it run in the background?18:11
DocScrutinizer05you don't need to "use it", the http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/calibrate-bq27k.sh does18:11
DocScrutinizer05you can use it to read out the data from bq27200 chip in shell18:12
DocScrutinizer05just invoke it18:12
jon_yfastcharger as in wallwart?18:12
DocScrutinizer05when you give a numeric parameter then it will run in a loop with those seconds of delay18:12
DocScrutinizer05yes18:13
jon_yok18:13
jon_yright now, my stock battery lasts ~6 days if I squeeze it18:14
DocScrutinizer05that's pretty decent18:14
jon_yprobably 1.5 weeks with the new battery after calibration18:14
DocScrutinizer05calibration doesn't change how long the battery lasts18:15
jon_ywell, at least it won't be mistakenly shutdown :)18:15
jon_yI do put the phone into offline mode during the night18:16
dos1jon_y: it's never "mistakenly shutdown"18:16
jon_y< DocScrutinizer05> it basically happens automatically, though often bme shuts down the device before battery got discharged far enough for bq27200 chip to detect full discharge18:17
jon_yisn't that what doc warned?18:17
dos1it's "mistakenly displaying 0% and low battery signs hours before shutdown"18:17
dos1jon_y: that warning only holds during the calibration itself18:18
jon_yhmm ok, so basically, nothing to worry about once the chip is calibrated18:19
DocScrutinizer05jon_y: nope. The bq27200 needs a - say - 60 seconds of battery voltage below 3450mV to learn the new capacity of battery. However the battery must not drop to 3400mV during that time, or BME will shut down hard the complete device18:19
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jon_ythat's a tiny margin18:20
DocScrutinizer05so when you discharge "too fast" then the device may shutdown before the bq27200 has completed the learning cycle18:20
jon_yyes, that explains18:20
dos1jon_y: calibration will only bring you more accurate percentage values - it won't change how long the battery lasts or when the device shutdowns18:20
DocScrutinizer05the margin resp voltages are random ballpark numbers to explain what happens. They are defferent in reality18:20
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jon_ydos1: I know, I was under the impression that the chip misdetects the levels if not calibrated18:21
jon_yand thusly shut it down before it has discharged fully18:21
DocScrutinizer05nope, the shutdown done by BME is not even related to bq27200 afaik18:21
dos1it does, but the shutdown is voltage based, so it's not related18:21
jon_yok, bme is responsible to safe shutdown if voltages are too low18:23
jon_ybut bq27200 is responsible for showing battery levels in the UI18:23
jon_ydid I get that right?18:23
DocScrutinizer05yes18:24
DocScrutinizer05basically correct18:24
jon_yok, thanks for the explanation18:25
DocScrutinizer05for stock maemo. Pali's BME replacement may behave differently18:25
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jon_yuname says I'm on power52, not sure if that matters18:26
jon_yhaven't upgraded in awhile18:26
DocScrutinizer05(it's not exactly bme itself which shuts down, but some chain starting at bme and ending in some osso or hildon stuff, I guess)18:26
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter18:26
jon_yok18:27
jon_yhopefully my n900 can last until the end of the decade18:27
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DocScrutinizer05~usbfix18:30
infobotusbfix is, like, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL2862BF3631A5C1AA&feature=player_detailpage&v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1861, you will basically need two irons: a small good one and a 60+ Watt18:30
DocScrutinizer05strongly recommended18:30
jon_yyeah, I heard of that, but opening up my phone is kind of risky18:31
jon_ythe damned impossible to reconnect ribbon cables speak volumes18:31
DocScrutinizer05yeah, connecting felx to that friggin 64pin B2B connector can be tricky18:32
DocScrutinizer05flex*18:32
jon_yalso, I'm too far from the UK :(18:32
jon_yI wonder if the USB receptacle walls actually do anything18:34
jon_yif not, we could just make a smaller USB connector that just fit over the pins inside18:35
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140721_002.mp4 should help a lot for not damaginbg the USB18:35
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keriojon_y: haters gonna hate18:36
kerioinstall pali's bme, it's good18:36
jon_ykerio: link? :)18:36
kerio~bmerep18:36
kerionope18:36
kerio~bme-replacement18:37
infoboti guess bme-replacement is http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/rx51-bme-replacement  http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/projects/maemo/bme-replacement.html  See also: http://wiki.maemo.org/Bme_replacement . Please, use wiki page to report bugs/problems and/or solutions to them!18:37
DocScrutinizer05I really dispise pali's habit to host such stuff on his own server18:38
keriodoctors gonna scrutinize18:38
jon_ykerio: more like if pali meets an accident someday or forgets to pay the bills, server is gone for good18:40
kerionah, it's a university webserver18:40
jon_yall the dead links18:40
DocScrutinizer05even worse18:40
kerio:D18:40
jon_yheh, that makes it even more iffy, uni can decide to pull the plug any time18:40
DocScrutinizer05exactly18:41
keriomeanwhile, acehack.de has 100% uptime18:41
keriowhenever i'm not dicking around with stuff18:41
DocScrutinizer05hey, we got garage for stuff like some "pali's bme replacement"18:42
keriowell i think the source is on github at least18:43
DocScrutinizer05and we got github or gitorious or whatever, for cssu related stuff18:43
DocScrutinizer05and we got zilch backup strategy for some random university server18:44
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: wget -r18:52
DocScrutinizer05eh?18:56
DocScrutinizer05cat /dev/random18:56
DocScrutinizer05fortune18:56
Sicelohttps://gitorious.org/rx51-bme-replacement18:57
Sicelo:)18:57
DocScrutinizer05well, then infobot is wrong18:58
Sicelomaybe this can be added to infobot18:58
DocScrutinizer05ffor users to pick which is the right one?18:58
Siceloi think those of us who don't know much about programming will benefit from Pali's uni page ... at least to get an idea what's going on19:00
DocScrutinizer05why isn't it at http://rx51-bme-replacement.garage.maemo.org/  ?19:01
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DocScrutinizer05ooh wait, prolly because it would rather go to https://garage.maemo.org/projects/jrbme/ ?19:04
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bencoh"One step closer to a 100% free and open maemo" / 2010 ... that was optimistic :(19:08
DocScrutinizer05>>So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking // Racing around to come up behind you again. // The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, // Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. <<19:11
DocScrutinizer05s/day/step/19:12
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T_Xanyone having an idea how packages can vanish from extras-devel?20:44
T_Xthis package here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/sflphone-common/0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10/20:44
T_Xhas a broken link to http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10_armel.deb20:45
T_X(and now I can't install sflphone, wanted to have a look at it)20:45
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DocScrutinizer05this might be the result of devels using too leete special chars or versioning scheme in their packages (' names)21:40
DocScrutinizer05eeerrrrrr nope, that's pretty simple: Old version cleaned by repository managementSystem2010-07-24 12:11 UTC21:41
DocScrutinizer05watch http://maemo.org/packages/view/sflphone-common/21:42
DocScrutinizer05the pity is that the messing arond with package names made the autobuilder/ repository -management also clean the just built sflphone-common package21:45
DocScrutinizer05anyway http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo1_armel.deb seems to exist21:47
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DocScrutinizer05http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sflphone-common/sflphone-common_0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo3_armel.deb  also exists21:51
DocScrutinizer05but that's obviously the last one21:52
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DocScrutinizer05I mean...21:54
DocScrutinizer05sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuild succeededSystem2010-07-24 11:42 UTC21:54
DocScrutinizer05sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo9Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuild succeededSystem2010-07-24 11:22 UTC21:58
DocScrutinizer05sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo10Fremantle Extras-devel free armelBuildingSystem2010-07-24 11:36 UTC21:58
DocScrutinizer05sflphone-common 0.9.7~ppa1~jaunty-maemo9Fremantle Extras-devel free armelPackage importedSystem2010-07-24 11:39 UTC21:59
DocScrutinizer05A) is maemo10 really > maemo9 ?21:59
DocScrutinizer05B) devels really shouldn't upload two versions in 10 minutes, so the older one got not imported yet while the newer once succeeds to build22:00
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DocScrutinizer05slono, tztztz22:01
DocScrutinizer05and then22:02
DocScrutinizer05sflphone-commonFremantle Extras-devel free armelPackage importedSystem2011-12-02 14:43 UTC22:02
DocScrutinizer05which seems to lack any proper versioning22:03
DocScrutinizer05I guess to clean up this mess you should start a new package sflphone-common222:05
DocScrutinizer05ask merlin1991 what to do to sanitize this confusion22:09
kerioDocScrutinizer05: every year is getting shorter22:09
kerionever seem to find the time22:09
kerioplans that either come to naught, or half a page of scribbled lines22:09
DocScrutinizer05thought I'd something more to say22:10
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