IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2014-04-22

« Monday, 2014-04-21 Index Wednesday, 2014-04-23 »
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ApicA wonderful splendid good Morning (UGT) on this gorgeous Boomtime!12:09
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erlehmannohai16:02
erlehmanni have a n90016:02
erlehmannbut nokia web page for flasher and firmware is not there anymore.16:02
erlehmannwhat do?16:02
inz~combined16:05
infobothmm... combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/16:05
jormungandr~flasher16:05
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, flasher is at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz.   HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/16:05
erlehmannintredasting16:06
erlehmannthx inz jormungandr16:06
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erlehmann~emmc16:08
infoboti heard emmc is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin16:08
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Mike11hi all :)20:00
Mike11the headphone jack at my laptop is not detecting my headphones, there is something in the connectors , but I can't fix it , so I was thinking of a wirkaround20:01
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Mike11workaround**20:01
Mike11can I use my n900 as a bluetooth headset for my laptop?20:02
Mike11I can do the opposite using my current bluetooth drivers (use my laptop as a headset)20:02
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erlehmannis there a general update strategy?21:20
erlehmanni notice i have python 2.5 on my device21:20
erlehmannwill "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" do?21:20
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DocScrutinizer05apt-get upgrade is massively deprecated21:36
erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 so how do i upgrade to latest version of packages?21:37
erlehmanni only got n900 yesterday21:37
DocScrutinizer05it won't give you any new stuff from nokia's core repos, and even for maemo-extras repo is is prone to install stuff that HAM wouldn't and that breaks your system21:37
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erlehmannso what would you reccommend21:38
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DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: you should install CSSU-Stable (or testing if you dare), and simply use HAM which checks for updates on a timed schedule without you worrying about it. When there are any updates, you see a blinking [!] in systray and clicking it will open HAM and offer to install the available updates21:40
DocScrutinizer05CSSU is unrelated to the latter (HAM) and not exactly mandatory21:40
DocScrutinizer05what however *is* mandatory: don't keep maemo-extras-devel repository enabled for those update checks, since in m-extras-devel (short: "-devel") there are lots of "updates" you rather do NOT want to install. See name of the repository21:42
erlehmannlet me read up on CSSU21:43
DocScrutinizer05to understand this special situation around apt vs HAM is one of the keys to a satisfying maemo user experience. Maemo is NOT exactly debian, the software package management is significantly different21:43
erlehmannah, the CSSU is the stable distribution21:43
DocScrutinizer05CSSU is an overlay over stock repos in which bugfixed packages get deployed21:44
DocScrutinizer05it is NOT a distro21:45
erlehmannoh okay21:45
DocScrutinizer05particularly not a better or alternative distro21:45
erlehmannbut i get up to date python package?21:45
erlehmannand can develop software so it is available on n900?21:46
erlehmanni have made a pygame based synthesizer21:46
erlehmanni would like to port that, but i need python 2.7 and pygame.21:46
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: I think alternative python packages are available in maemo-extras*21:47
DocScrutinizer05~pkg21:47
infoboti guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/21:47
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/python2.7/21:48
erlehmannnoice21:48
erlehmannthx \o/21:48
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/python3/21:48
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/python3.2/21:49
erlehmann\o/21:49
DocScrutinizer05using apt-cache search and apt-cache policy is also not risky and sometimes convenient21:49
DocScrutinizer05apt-get install you should already know what you're doing, some pkgs fail on that21:50
DocScrutinizer05apt-get *upgrade is DEPRECATED21:50
erlehmannso what use instead21:50
DocScrutinizer05as a general rule: use HAM for installing any packages21:51
erlehmannhow?21:51
erlehmannwhat is command line?21:51
DocScrutinizer05if HAM doesn't offer to install the package then there's a reason for that. Understand the reason before you go and ruin your system with apt-get install21:52
DocScrutinizer05HAM is a GUI program21:52
DocScrutinizer05the Hildon "Package Manager"21:52
DocScrutinizer05~ham21:52
infobotwell, ham is Hildon Application Manager.  Slow as molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does21:52
erlehmanncan i exclude evil packages?21:52
DocScrutinizer05you *can* do almost everything, this is linux after all21:53
DocScrutinizer05but first, you need to know +what* you want to do21:54
DocScrutinizer05and *how* to actually accomplish that21:54
DocScrutinizer05for that you need to understand how maemo differs from what you're used to from standard debian21:54
erlehmannwhere can i find a list of that?21:55
DocScrutinizer05steer clear of shortcuts some people recommend, like "I never use HAM, I only use apt-get",  "Use fapman! it's waaay faster than HAM" and the like21:56
DocScrutinizer05(list of that) this stuff is really poorly documented, if at all21:56
DocScrutinizer05learning about scratchbox maemo SDK, about autobuilder and about repositories helps a bit21:57
DocScrutinizer05for advanced users there are a few other interesting entry points21:58
DocScrutinizer05~jrtools21:58
infobotit has been said that jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools21:58
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel#Limiting_the_damage21:59
DocScrutinizer05~fapman21:59
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. in short, it's deprecated21:59
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: generally asking in here is always a good idea. questions like "I want to do X. I looked up in p, q, r how to do it and seems Y is the right way. Correct?" never are frowned upon22:01
DocScrutinizer05and the answers you get are at least 80% correct22:01
erlehmannthx22:02
DocScrutinizer05yw :-) also welcome to maemo and N900!22:03
erlehmanni have written a build system that depends only on /bin/sh and unix utilities22:03
erlehmannredo22:03
erlehmannafter a design by DJB22:03
erlehmannhow i make a package? make deb package first?22:03
DocScrutinizer05you generally want to use maemo scratchbox SDK22:04
DocScrutinizer05~sb22:04
infobotmethinks scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB22:04
DocScrutinizer05hmm22:04
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide22:04
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: ^^^22:07
erlehmannthx22:07
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* freemangordon needs ARM hexrays :(22:09
freemangordonhow it is possible it is still not leaked?!?22:09
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DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: recently nobody succeeded with installing 'native' maemo SDK afaik (I.E. installing scratchbox to your PC's /scratchbox/ dir). It's widely considered too cumbersome. Instead use a VM with a complete SB installation inside22:10
erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 nobody succeeded?22:10
freemangordonhmm, actually I did it 2 months ago22:10
freemangordonon ununtu 12.04 64 bit22:10
DocScrutinizer05ok22:10
freemangordonbut it is tricky22:11
freemangordonfor sure22:11
erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 let me note down. apt-get autoremove and apt-get upgrade are dangerous, right?22:11
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless a VM is a viable alternative22:11
freemangordonwaaay better22:11
DocScrutinizer05right22:11
DocScrutinizer05apt-get dist-upgrade is bullshit!22:11
erlehmannbullshit?22:12
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DocScrutinizer05and don't even think about installing a complete development environment (gcc, all libs etc) on your N900 natively22:12
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: dist-upgrade doesn't work at all22:13
DocScrutinizer05ther's basically no such thing in maemo22:13
DocScrutinizer05maemo is based on metapackages that do the whole upgrade task22:14
DocScrutinizer05maemo has a terribly messed up dependency "management"22:14
DocScrutinizer05read: NONE at all22:14
DocScrutinizer05(this is the simplfied yellow press version of the whole story)22:15
erlehmannlel22:15
DocScrutinizer05anyway this is why usual apt-get upgrade and syblings doesn't work as expected22:16
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: apt-cache dump mp-fremantle-generic-pr22:19
DocScrutinizer05duck and cover!22:19
erlehmannwhat22:19
erlehmannWTF22:20
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# apt-cache dump mp-fremantle-generic-pr|wc -l22:21
DocScrutinizer058453122:21
erlehmannhow can i stretch the battery?22:21
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption  http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_management22:22
erlehmannthx22:23
DocScrutinizer05N900 software power management22:23
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management22:23
erlehmannon my htc dream i have powertop22:23
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DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/powertop/22:26
DocScrutinizer05~zzzpowertop22:26
DocScrutinizer05~listkeys powertop22:26
infobotFactoid search of 'powertop' by key (1): powertop.22:26
DocScrutinizer05dang22:26
DocScrutinizer05~zzztop22:26
infobotzzztop is, like, - the better and even FOSS powertop - http://wiki.maemo.org/Zzztop22:26
erlehmannthx22:27
DocScrutinizer05yw22:27
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: I recently did a lil fancy and made a catalogs-swapper, so you can do "apt-get install <some-leete-tool>" and then swap back catalog settings to what they are supposed to be22:31
erlehmanncatalog?22:31
ApicCool22:31
erlehmanncatalog is sources.list?22:32
DocScrutinizer05basically yes22:32
DocScrutinizer05just for maemo it's a tad more complicated22:32
DocScrutinizer05you are NOT supposed to edit sources.list manually22:32
DocScrutinizer05use HAM for that, but it sucks after the 2nd time22:33
DocScrutinizer05thus I did this lil silly22:33
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/session-log_enable-catalogs_README.txt   http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/enable-catalogs22:34
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erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 i have noted down the stuff you said, thx http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/notes/nokia-n900.html22:42
DocScrutinizer05:-)22:44
* DocScrutinizer05 ponders to eventually do a 3liner script to switch to "all", invoke HAM, and on HAM exit switch back to "basic" for the repos. Then create an alternative .desktop for "PowerHAM"22:46
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DocScrutinizer05~docscrutinizer22:52
infobot[docscrutinizer] jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko22:52
DocScrutinizer05err22:52
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann:22:52
DocScrutinizer05~joerg22:52
infoboti heard joerg is a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer22:52
DocScrutinizer05though I don't mind getting caled DocScrutinizer0522:53
erlehmannDocScrutinizer05 do you want me to change the name?22:54
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: generally you wanna join and exploit search in talk.maemo.org22:54
DocScrutinizer05erlehmann: I don't care22:54
erlehmannokay :)22:54
DocScrutinizer05much noise and trolls in tmo, but also a really overwhelming wealth of info22:55
DocScrutinizer05btw: Neo900 might be interesting for you (sorry for shameless advertising), and FPTF needs all the help it can get22:57
DocScrutinizer05~fptf22:57
infobotrumour has it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9130822:57
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9114222:58
DocScrutinizer05and even neo900.org22:58
erlehmanni don't need a faster CPU, more RAM and an LTE modem23:00
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chem|sterlehmann: where does all this LTE desire come from? H+ is faster than my landline... or does mobile latency magically decrease with it?23:35
erlehmanndunno23:35
chem|stcontracts over here are pretty expensive, at least with a quota fitting the mbit/s23:35
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chem|steven now I can blow my quota within 50 seconds and get throttled to 54kbit...23:37
chem|sterlehmann: ok I see some plus points apart of the speed, lower latency and lower consumption due to lower base-bands - lower bands also means better reception...23:40
LjL-Lapletmobile phones really need aggressive ways to prolong battery life23:42
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chem|stLjL-Laplet: well it is not only hardware... bad software is actually the main cause of battery drain23:44
LjL-Lapletmain? doubtful23:45
LjL-Lapleti mean sure, my phone could spend 6 days in standby with no misbehaving software23:45
LjL-Lapletbut use the network and keep the screen off, and eh. it's the hardware taking up the vast majority of the power23:45
chem|stI got my laptop from 5h to 8h with simple measures, software wise23:45
chem|stthe standard system is based on software that is meant to run on a wall-powerout...23:46
DocScrutinizer05yes, LTE actually +has* 2nagicaly" lower latency, and better power consumption properties, than UMTS(HSPA)23:46
DocScrutinizer05yes, LTE actually *has* "magicaly" lower latency, and better power consumption properties, than UMTS(HSPA)23:46
chem|styeah just read what might be possible, still it is far from what is expected or desired23:47
DocScrutinizer05mobile phones need better apps that don't waste power on doing idle busy all the time23:47
chem|stI doubt 5ms and 300mbit/s will come all to soon to user grade23:47
LjL-LapletDocScrutinizer05: mobile phones need better OS's that kill their apps with fire if they even dare try23:48
DocScrutinizer05LOL23:48
DocScrutinizer05go for android if that's what you look for23:48
LjL-Lapletyeah, no, Android doesn't really do that (and I'm using it)23:49
DocScrutinizer05or winphone, or even iOS23:49
LjL-LapletiOS does that by... killing *all* the apps23:49
erlehmannlike an out of memory killer23:49
erlehmannonly for power consumption23:49
LjL-Lapletnot sure about Windows Phone, Windows 8 also likes to freeze everything though23:49
bencohwith FIRE yay :)23:50
bencoh(sorry)23:50
LjL-Lapleterlehmann: Android has things like that but they just don't work too well23:50
DocScrutinizer05the approach is nonsense23:50
LjL-Lapletheh, must be why everyone's using it23:51
DocScrutinizer05OOM-alike approach would be semi-sensible if only we could attribute resource consuption to the particular app23:51
bencohit is nonsense, it goes along the webcoder way though23:51
chem|stmy tablet lasts forever but that has a battery in the size of two iphones23:51
bencohlet's monkeycode and let the OS handle this23:51
DocScrutinizer05my N900 lasts for 2 weeks, on idle23:51
LjL-LapletDocScrutinizer05: what is the reason we can't?23:51
bencohI'm quite sure my n900 wont last for 2 weeks idling23:52
LjL-Lapletmy N900 hardly lasts two weeks powered off23:52
chem|stmy n9 lasts 2 weeks in flightmode... but thats about it23:53
LjL-Lapletyeah, flight mode isn't exceptionally useful though23:54
DocScrutinizer05my N900 even lasts 2 days (48h) with xchat IRC active via WLAN23:54
chem|stthe jolla lasts several days up to a week on my current use case23:55
chem|styeah I think 2-3 days wifi is doable with an n90023:55
bencohdefinitely23:55
DocScrutinizer05and still one whole day usually, when doing IRC via 2G23:56
DocScrutinizer05only a 4h though when going 3G aka UMTS23:57
chem|stwell, back in the early days it did not get to 3 days idle23:57
bencohwow, so there are some people who use umts on it ... :>23:57
DocScrutinizer05and the only way to "fix" this is by killing/stopping xchat as soon as you move it to background or lock the screen23:57
DocScrutinizer05which is exactly what defeats the whole pupose of maemo23:58
chem|stbencoh: I even used voip on 3G^^23:58
DocScrutinizer05purpose*23:58
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bencohchem|st: impressive ^^23:58
DocScrutinizer05I do that frequently23:58
DocScrutinizer05just works23:59
DocScrutinizer05(as long as I'm on 3G all the time, you can't switch to 3G when inbound call started ringing)23:59
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