IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2014-04-17

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sixwheeledbeastTTilus: It's decided to start working again this evening. I haven't changed anything. I will keep an eye on it for now hasn't been working for ~2 days.00:53
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DocScrutinizer05strange stuff happening with AGPS00:55
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LjL-Tabletwhat is it this time, did nokia's servers start telling everyone we live on the moon00:55
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DocScrutinizer05prolly sixwheeledbeast's AGPS got bogus data from GSM so it never recovered from that, while it lasts01:02
DocScrutinizer05>>...hasn't been working for ~2 days.<<01:03
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: you should've tested with SIM removed01:03
sixwheeledbeastOn two separate N900's ...01:03
DocScrutinizer05same SIM? same carrier?01:04
sixwheeledbeastdifferent sim different carrier01:04
DocScrutinizer05hmmm, then it's sth different01:04
DocScrutinizer05then prolly the supl server been same on both?01:04
sixwheeledbeastonly nokia works now but tested both at the time01:05
DocScrutinizer05or your local GPS signal got jammed, by whatever01:05
sixwheeledbeastboth being nokia and google01:05
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sixwheeledbeastI have moved between different locations, but that is a possibly01:06
DocScrutinizer05well, there's hardly a magic hidden channel that tells two N900 to stop GPS operation, except carrier and supl server01:07
DocScrutinizer05GPS needs/uses: *- hardware; *- supl;  *- GSM-carrier;  *- GPS signal01:09
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's it.01:09
DocScrutinizer05AGPS that is. GPS only uses hardware and GPS signal01:09
* nox- just fixed my printer's clock that was 1 hr into the future, might be some wrong/old tz data?01:10
DocScrutinizer05so unless there's been a common timebomb in N900 GPS realted software, I don't see any way how two N900 could sync to stop GPS, unless it's the GPS signal itself that's garbled01:11
nox-or wrong timezone?01:11
DocScrutinizer05OOOOH! YES! :-P01:11
DocScrutinizer05AGPS is very very prone to incorrect RTC time on board01:11
DocScrutinizer05age old known (d)effect01:12
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: ^^^01:12
nox-gps recorder sets click from gps, once you get a fix...01:12
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DocScrutinizer05yeah, once you get a fix. But what you gonna do when you need correct tme to get a fix? ;-D01:13
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: ^^^01:14
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sixwheeledbeasttime and tz are fine01:14
DocScrutinizer05dang, whould've made a good explanation01:14
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DocScrutinizer05you didn't by any accident have another GPS receiver around that you used to check GPS availability?01:17
sixwheeledbeastno this was what I was about to do when I noticed a fix01:18
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DocScrutinizer05RTLSDR FTW01:23
DocScrutinizer05though, the S/N of GPS signal is really too low to check for jammers with RTL01:24
DocScrutinizer05unrelated off-topic sidenote: 5,1G    /home/jr/.kde4/share/apps/nepomuk/repository/main/data/virtuosobackend01:25
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders which apprentice was allowed to implement his bizarre ideas there01:27
DocScrutinizer05sounds like "school of tracker", particularly the class which got tought to store emails in a sqlite db01:29
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ApicA wonderful nice splendid gorgeous Thursday Morning (UGT) on this fine Boomtime!10:10
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narcosHi all. I seem to remember a recent power-kernel has support for enabling monitor mode on the wlan without loading 3rd party drivers. Can't seem to find the script on the maemo website though11:33
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narcosfound it -
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NIN101wow, somebody is providing 1.0.1g  of openssl TMO. Distributed over dropbox. Definitly gonna install it, no concerns :-).12:08
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chem|stNIN101: somebody? it's niel...13:02
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DocScrutinizer05did he at least publish the md5sum via tmo?14:16
DocScrutinizer05and why the heck via dropbox? is it too large for a tmo attachment? Not to mention the "very fne" autobuilder14:17
NIN101DocScrutinizer05: no, no sums.14:18
DocScrutinizer05isn't such ssl bugfix a 1120% clear candidate for CSSU?14:25
DocScrutinizer05and CSSU the *only* correct way to deploy it14:26
NIN101DocScrutinizer05: maemo uses 0.9.8 and an upgrad eto 0.9.8y should happen, not 1.0.1 as compatibility is not guaranteed. Since CSSU already did some OpenSSL updates and it is part of the bases system, yes, CSSU.14:26
DocScrutinizer05mhm, was't aware.14:27
NIN101OpenSSH which is also outdated otoh is not CSSU business but god knows who, probably packaged by nokia initially and forgotten by all.14:27
DocScrutinizer05sure, it's on extras14:28
DocScrutinizer05or tools/SDK/whoknows14:28
DocScrutinizer05ssh is a normal package. -> extras. ssl is system core? -> CSSU14:29
MrPingussh is on extras14:30
DocScrutinizer05then it has (or had) a maintainer14:30
DocScrutinizer05and almost everybody is free to take over and update it14:30
DocScrutinizer05procedure is simple: contact maintainer CC council. After a week - if no answer - pester council to transfer maintainership to you14:31
MrPingucould be  in tools/sdk too, but I am 100% sure it's also in extras14:32
Maxdamantusisn't openssl still 0.98somenthing in CSSU?14:32
NIN101Maxdamantus: yes, but an outdated one14:32
MaxdamantusDunno. Maybe I'm not using the right repositories.14:32
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Maxdamantusbut one that doesn't have one of the known major bugs.14:33
NIN101DocScrutinizer05: well with what I read about maemo's infrasturcutre/politics I am sure not many have the motivation to go through this pain.14:33
Maxdamantusit's in-between two of them.14:33
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DocScrutinizer05there are no politics entangled with infra/builder14:33
NIN101hmm ok.14:34
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MrPinguNo but the SDK settup is a mess14:34
MrPinguMaemo toolchain for qt has vanished14:34
DocScrutinizer05I see a lot of packages getting updates every day14:34
NIN101Maxdamantus: The current version as shipped by CSSU is not affected by heartbleet but other vulnerabilities, upgrading to 0.9.8y should be done.14:35
Maxdamantusah, okay.14:35
DocScrutinizer05and with a bit of "politics" (like talking about it here in IRC) even promotion from -devel to extras-proper works14:36
Maxdamantusthere was a significant bug introduced by Debian maintainers in an earlier version.14:36
MrPinguDocScrutinizer05: Yeah, but I am talking about setup not about a running installation14:36
NIN101Maxdamantus: that was PRNG issue in 2008.14:36
DocScrutinizer05get the VM!14:37
infobotfrom memory, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, or hosted by now, maintainer thedead1440, or at
MrPinguI 'have' the VM but it doesn't include qtcreator and such but scratchbox is working fine, yes14:38
DocScrutinizer05~literal sb14:38
infobot"#maemo sb" is "<reply>see scratchbox"14:38
DocScrutinizer05~literal scratchbox14:38
infobot"scratchbox" is "a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, or hosted by now, maintainer thedead1440, or at"14:38
MrPingufor compiling/making it works14:39
Maxdamantushmm.. speaking of VMs, I wonder if anyone's experimented with qemu/kvm on N900.14:39
okiasMaxdamantus: haha, where you take memory for that?14:39
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, hosted by maemo now. Also at
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0514:39
Maxdamantusokias: you could balloon the memory.14:40
MrPinguWould love to upload updated openssh but I just can't get around making a proper build-package14:40
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Maxdamantusso it would use a bit more than a Linux instance itself.14:40
MrPinguIt's just my skills are too low ;)14:40
Maxdamantuswhich doesn't necessarily need a lot.14:41
MrPingureplace openssh with x ;)14:41
NIN101MrPingu: well in theory you could use the current package and update its source.14:41
Maxdamantusprobably way less than running a Gecko-based browser.14:41
okiasMaxdamantus: well, then just try power-kernel + kvm14:42
Maxdamantusso is the normally-included iommu module actually used for anything?14:42
Maxdamantusactually, dunno if it's included in nokia's kernel.14:42
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Maxdamantusit is.14:43
MrPinguNIN101: Yes that could but some guide for doing this, wouldn't hurt me14:43
zGrrmoin :)14:43
DocScrutinizer05okias: still thinking maemo community is dead?14:44
okiasDocScrutinizer05:  ok, fine :D14:45
okiasbtw. I wonder, I seen qt5 effort14:45
okiasif it could be included in some official repos?14:45
DocScrutinizer05sure, some nerd for sure tackled that14:45
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MrPinguI will take a look on mud-builder, I believe it does what I want...14:45
okiaswhich seems fine14:46
DocScrutinizer05but our 2official repos" are "frozen"14:46
okiasDocScrutinizer05: what do you mean?14:46
DocScrutinizer05I mean there's no switch to a new Qt happening for fremantle14:46
okiasDocScrutinizer05: well, what about estabilish new repos_14:46
DocScrutinizer05you're free to install Qt5 on your system, from extras(-devel)14:46
okiasactually, I feel like pretty mess with repos on N900.. i disabled few, which has that gpg error14:47
okiasand of course it works14:47
DocScrutinizer05we have ONE "repo" that we barely can keep up to date, despite it per definitionem is meant to just deploy bugfixes, not complete system changes like Qt4->Qt5: it's called CSSU14:48
okiasthat's next thing, I noticed cssu cssu-testing cssu-dev & cssu-thumb.. I know for what is cssu-thumb & cssu-testing... should they be combined?14:49
okiasso cssu + cssu-testing + cssu-dev together ?14:49
DocScrutinizer05*nobody* will rewrite whole maemo incl all apps to change Qt4 to Qt514:49
MrPinguI will break my head around packaging another time, g2g14:49
okiasDocScrutinizer05: well, it's not that hard14:49
DocScrutinizer05still *nobody* will do it14:50
okiasDocScrutinizer05: on desktop, few apps compiled pretty out-of-box (except some small tweaks in cmake)14:50
okiasI could do it14:50
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okiasat least for apps I use14:50
okiasdon't be se skeptic :D14:50
okiasonce I even though about porting few pygtk apps to qt14:51
DocScrutinizer05then go ahead, but for maemo at large we'd need somebody to port all ~2000 packages in extras(-devel) to Qt5 which I don't see to happen *ever*14:51
okiaswell, Qt4->Qt5 transition should be pretty easy.. .you say we have community14:52
DocScrutinizer05and *why*?14:52
okias1) qtwebkit14:52
DocScrutinizer05dream on! :-)14:52
okiaswell, I don't see anyone care much about gecko :D14:52
DocScrutinizer05fremantle is basically in maintenance mode14:52
DocScrutinizer05add whatever you like but don't hope for a new updated core system14:53
DocScrutinizer05heck, we're still on 2.6.28-omap1 kernel14:54
okiasDocScrutinizer05: can be created some official repo for that?14:54
okiasDocScrutinizer05: well, that changes soon14:54
okiaswhy not? (1 question)14:54
DocScrutinizer05because of the same reasons why it didn't change the last 4 years14:55
okiaswell, as I see, there is still  living eco-system, I think there could be people who contribute14:55
DocScrutinizer05there are too many blobs that depend on the 2.6.28 API/ABI14:56
okiasoh, I meant repository14:56
okiasnot kernel, I'm aware of actual kernel state :)14:56
DocScrutinizer05there IS a repo! even 3. They are called extras-devel, extras-testing, extras14:57
DocScrutinizer05plus there's CSSU-Testing and CSSU-Stable for updates to the core system14:58
DocScrutinizer05but that won't push the whole maemo to a new incompatible configuration14:59
DocScrutinizer05since it's by definition just deploying bugfixes, but not a complete system15:00
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DocScrutinizer05I think Qt4 and Qt5 can coexist. So if you wanna play with Qt5, go and create a Qt5 package to install it to fremantle, deploy it via maemo-extras(-devel|-testing) repo, make sure it doesn't mess up the stock fremantle system for those who install your Qt5 package. Then you can try to port stuff like microB or whatever you feel needs your love most, maybe eventually such update even has chances to get deployed via CSSU if it actually15:04
DocScrutinizer05fixes stuff that needs fixing15:04
DocScrutinizer05fremantle won't switch to Qt5 and deprecate Qt4 since that will definitely kill fremantle for 99% of users15:04
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DocScrutinizer05we need more contributors to currently existing fremantle, not a split of forces into those who maintain "old" fremantle and a few who think they need to develop an incompatible "fremantle-2.0"15:07
LjL-Tabletwasn't microB closed-source15:09
okiasLjL-Tablet: it's "firefox"15:09
DocScrutinizer05we seen this, been there, before: when everybody got told "why do you want to develop that app for maemo fremantle? Why not go for meego already? meego is da noo shite"15:09
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Tablet: GUI closed, core FOSS15:09
LjL-Tabletright but Qt4 vs 5 would concern the GUI, no?15:10
LjL-Tabletfair enough15:10
bencohoh, and I thought microB gui went opensource too ... :(15:10
LjL-Tableti, for one, would like to see my N900 keep up with things, while staying usable (in other words: not some newfangled OS that's slow as heck and very experimental, but not a completely static Maemo with just tiny bugfixes, either)15:11
LjL-Tabletbut i don't get a vote, i'm just a user15:11
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bencohsame for me, but with less closed-source stuff :)15:13
LjL-Tabletoh yes, that too15:13
LjL-Tabletactually swap the priorities for me, full open-source is a higher one15:14
bencohyup :)15:14
LjL-Tabletbut i guess i didn't mention that because i was under the impression it was slowly being done15:14
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Tablet: we're working on it, you're welcome to join the team! :-)15:14
infobotmethinks fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see
infobotmethinks cssu is
LjL-Tabletoh i'm an awful programmer, the best thing i ever did for a mobile device was a thingie to change the backlight according to light sensor on an old iPaq ;(15:15
DocScrutinizer05until those efforts aren't "mission accomplished" yet, no "new repos for Qt5 fremantle" or anything like that wil make any sense at all15:16
ApicCruel Word…15:17
LjL-Tableteh, i'm unlikely to be getting the Neo900... plus what does "mission accomplished" mean on the CSSU case, will there ever be a point when it's "perfect"?15:17
DocScrutinizer05err, not really15:17
DocScrutinizer05but i'd consider a complete replacement of all blobs by FOSS rev-eng versions a significant point in time, from which on we cna adjust our policies a bit15:18
DocScrutinizer05however rhat's not CSSU goal, that's fptf goal15:19
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DocScrutinizer05any such FOSS-only fremantle will never be 100% feature-complete, and thus there are a lot of users who bought N900 because of the original fremantle OS that comes with it, and they *don't want* to switch to something that's a new OS in the end, no matter what you call it15:21
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DocScrutinizer05they don't care if it is fullof blobs, or if it has qt4 or Qt515:22
DocScrutinizer05I have to admit I sympathize with this approach, for my daily phone15:24
ApicI have not yet dared to switch to pure free Debian either15:24
ApicSomehow i've gotten to like Maemo15:24
ApicEven the closed quirky Parts…15:24
bencoherr :]15:25
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DocScrutinizer05when you want a new OS, there are quite a few to choose from, starting with debian, and FF-OS, and prolly not ending at sailfish getting ported by somebody15:26
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DocScrutinizer05why the heck would we *nuke* original fremantle for something new that pretends to be fremantle as well?15:27
DocScrutinizer05only inferior, but FREEEEE15:27
bencohwhy inferior ?15:27
LjL-Tabletbecause i would never use Debian on a phone, i don't like FF-OS, and afaik Sailfish is hardly free15:28
ApicNukes are mostly bad.15:28
DocScrutinizer05because of feature-completeness, amount of testing, and so on15:28
bencohmost of those features are/can be accomplished with oss15:29
DocScrutinizer05and particularly because of the lack of apps available, since nobody is going to port the thousands of apps in extras15:29
LjL-Tabletthe apps would need to work out of the box (or after a painless reompile), no doubt15:30
DocScrutinizer05if you want such thing, go contribute to FPTF. Do *NOT* suggest to nuke original fremantle to meet your preferences15:30
LjL-Tabletbut you said you didn't want a split of forces15:31
LjL-Tabletwhat is it you want :P15:31
DocScrutinizer05FPTF is exactly about such "new fremantle" that could be thumbified, maybe even come with Qt5 per default (while still keeping compatibility for Qt4-apps), aso15:31
DocScrutinizer05FPTF however is all about keeping compatibility, so we do NOT need to rebuild all thosands of apps, we do NOT need to RE the dialer etc15:32
LjL-Tabletwell when it's called an effort to port it to the Neo900, i'm not so confident its people will care about it working acceptably on my N900, but eh15:33
DocScrutinizer05otherwise we wouldn't call it fremantle porting, but razher "our-leete-new-OS-for-N899-and-the-like"15:33
ApicI'm glad to get a N900-like Phone with LTE, even when there exist some Disadvantages.15:34
ApicMaybe one could even plug in an LTE-USB-Stick via hostusb ;-)15:34
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Tablet: you are missing the point. Let me tell you that people +will* care, even a lot15:34
LjL-TabletDocScrutinizer05: well, the point isn't made very cogently in the introductory post to it...15:35
DocScrutinizer05the point is obvious to the devels, and it's discussed somewhere around post#8 or somesuch15:35
DocScrutinizer05an OS that's free so you can port it to $arbitrary-platform of course can get ported to N900 as well15:36
DocScrutinizer05however the FPTF thread clearly discusses all the non-portable things we never will be able to liberate15:38
LjL-Tableti used the word "acceptably". i can port Android to the N900 (it's been done), that doesn't mean it can seriously be used15:38
DocScrutinizer05so what?15:38
LjL-Tabletah sorry, i was under the mistaken impression i cared about my N900 being usable15:39
DocScrutinizer05please read the damn FPTF thread15:39
DocScrutinizer05I'm feeling tired discussing this here, to explain development 10115:39
LjL-Tableti always love this newfangled thing of roadmaps being in forum "threads" one has to sift through rather than, you know, a wiki or something. it's basically Usenet except done wrong and used for the wrong thing15:40
DocScrutinizer05the FPTF nor CSSU devels are not Santa Claus15:40
DocScrutinizer05we can't change reality so it meets your requirements, just to make you happy15:41
LjL-Tabletthen don't, but don't tell me what i'd actually like to have15:41
bencohtalking of which, would having a TMO2news gateway seem reasonable ?15:42
LjL-Tableti can accept "i'd like to have X" "you won't get X from us"15:42
bencoh(not asking anyone to actually do it, just know whether it feels reasonable to some of you)15:42
LjL-Tabletbut "i'd like to make X" "i don't want you to split efforts" "but i'd like X" "you don't get it, X is what the devs will do" "but it's not" "you don't get a free lunch, split if you want"...15:42
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DocScrutinizer05#1: This thread is dedicated to discussion about concepts and details of how to port maemo fremantle OS to Neo900 (Neo900 - finally a successor of N900) - ***or more generally to new hw platforms***15:52
DocScrutinizer05>>Everybody who wants to contribute in porting (and ***during that step by step "freeing"***) fremantle, please don't hesitate...<<15:54
ApicI do not like Forums, sry ;-)15:56
ApicIRC > *15:56
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ApicThanks for relaying the Forum into here.  B-)16:19
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ApicNeo900 has a Compass? Way kewl!16:21
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DocScrutinizer05Apic: (thanks for relaying) has a dang lot of what been argued here during last 2h16:24
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DocScrutinizer05that's why I'm tired to discuss all that again16:25
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DocScrutinizer05and thus I relay the relevant links to here16:25
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