IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2014-01-31

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sixwheeledbeastspammers seem to pull up some odd pages on wmo. They make for interesting reading, like "random page" but with rollback :P
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: yeah, I wonder if we should disable anonymous edits. But then, we know they just create random accounts to spem, even harder to spot in "recent changes"01:22
FIQcan't you ban ip?01:36
DocScrutinizer05already done01:40
DocScrutinizer05but that doesn't help much01:40
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hxkaOMG, there is one, and it ASKS TO ADD TWO NUMBERS01:57
hxkaComputers are better at adding then people01:58
infobothxka meant: Computers are better at adding than people01:59
Aggemake the subtrackt then :)02:04
ecc3gfirst week add, second week subtract, third week multiple, fourh week divide, fifth week compute x^y, sixth week take logarithm base x of y, seventh week compute factorial of, eight week integrate an equation over the interval of the two numbers given....02:06
Aggehxka, you just need to add a time limit to it :)02:08
ecc3gmakes it even worse for humans...heh02:08
ecc3gactually that integral isn't too bad, once you start transcendentals...02:08
Aggeand for extra credit we give them a locial paradox02:08
ecc3g9th week... prove p=np or p!=np02:10
hxkaThat won't be easy to evaluate02:12
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hxkaecc3g: Soriously though, it's actually easy to crack too:
Aggeafter that they have to beat a verified human at goo or
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DocScrutinizer05watch out or the captcha gets replaced by an interrogation by me ;-P02:18
javispedroI don't know what the big websites do these days02:19
javispedroI've had everything from recaptcha to "animal captcha" to questions I've changed daily02:19
javispedrothey _beat_ the questions (seen on logs)02:20
Aggedont most still use googles recaptcha?02:20
javispedroI include that in "animal captchas", and the one I tried (no that) is mostly beaten02:20
javispedro*not that02:20
javispedroyeah, but recaptcha is useless these days02:21
Aggeiirc allot of the "beaten" by computer are actualy just cheap indians that solve them02:21
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javispedrootherwise we may be on the 22th century02:22
javispedroat some point I should try to ask "Show why P!=NP" to the bots02:22
Aggeyou might be able to use that by asking questions about obscure western culture but that would lock out allot of real peaple of you are succesful02:23
ecc3gyou have to keep on changing the questions to fresh questions unfortunately02:24
ecc3gthe problem with most sysadmins is that they want one solution and never have to play with it again02:24
Aggeor have a realy big database of them02:24
ecc3gwhich will never work02:24
ecc3glarge database will not work02:24
ecc3git has to be infinitely large02:24
javispedrowell I do ask questions about obscure videogames (since community is about games)02:24
Aggedoc could have it ask maemo specif questins02:25
javispedroyet the `indians' seem to solve them at their first try02:25
Aggewhat about counting the number of squares hidden in somthing like this
Aggethat should at least confuse the realt computers02:28
javispedrobtw at some point I gave up and blocked all @hotmail addresses02:28
javispedrobut then "the indians" moved to @gmail02:28
hxkaThat won't be ever solved by a real human02:28
Aggeyou couldent use that image it is just example of the type of image02:29
ecc3gUse pictures that have psychodelic effects that only affect humans... :D02:29
Aggeyou make som bigger more obius squares on it thin use it or you use triangels02:29
Aggeis this a sad or an happy picture? :)02:30
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Aggethat could work02:30
ecc3gunfortunately the number of these kinds of pictures are limited...  I mean the pictures that if you look at it funny the pictures move... of course a computer will never see it move02:30
DocScrutinizer05hi javispedro! :-)02:31
hxkaecc3g: How would you use it as captcha?02:32
Aggeecc3g, iirc you can "decode" this images by using a filter on it02:32
ecc3gdunno... but it would be an interesting concept02:32
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AggeI like mine sad . happy idea02:34
Aggeit would be hard to get good computer reading on a big database of those images02:34
DocScrutinizer05how about a IRC auth?02:35
Aggegive the user 6 old images and 4 new and ask them to clasify it02:35
javispedroIRC auth? you have to login to IRC, try to convince admin of website so that he lets you in? :)02:36
DocScrutinizer05convince anybody that you're real02:36
DocScrutinizer05would probably nag the shit outa whole channel02:36
javispedrowell at least it is a scalable solution02:37
Aggeyou know that "dating" scam bots have "passed" turring test02:37
javispedrothis is the right moment to link to
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's because the testers did NOT02:37
Aggetrue :)02:37
javispedroan (asterisk?) voice-based chatbot02:39
javispedrothey tested it on telemarketers. some of them didn't realize until 10min in the conversation.02:39
javispedrothis despite the fact the bot is actually just a series of recordings played in sequence (with some silence detection to know when to answer, I think)02:40
Aggelol. sure that they warent a bot? some telemarketing kompany have begun usig sale bots02:40
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Aggethose guys at least have a rediculus sales video lol02:47
DocScrutinizer05I think the tricj with lenny is you don't understand a word of what "he2 says02:52
javispedrowell it's one of those that will just randomly change the topic02:52
javispedroin this case, the random topic changes are justified by his old man persona02:53
javispedrowhich imho is not a bad idea =)02:53
javispedrothe "ducks" recording is terribly funny =)02:54
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DocScrutinizer05wow, it just occurs to me that I'm commercially busy in a domain with colliding interests to maemo and thus shouldn't be in council at all02:56
DocScrutinizer05even worse: I dunno if I already been in this conflict during last elections and didn't disclose the fact02:57
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javispedroI thought the only council conflict of interest was being in the Nokia itself...02:57
DocScrutinizer05lemme check02:58
DocScrutinizer05>>Nominees with a professional interest in Maemo, such as working for Nokia - or any other company involved in Maemo-related software development - must declare their interest when advertising their nomination. Failure to do so may result in the Nokia Community Manager, or the outgoing Council, declaring their nomination invalid and so bar them from standing in the current election.<<02:59
DocScrutinizer05now if only I knew if Neo900 group is involved in sw development03:00
DocScrutinizer05but eventually we plan to03:00
javispedrothis was written basically for Nokia employees and contractors03:00
DocScrutinizer05I think it's a sufficient reason to step down03:01
javispedroobviously, if you read it like a lawyer, then, by virtue of having developed maemo-related software, *I* would also need to declare "my interested".03:01
javispedroso maybe it needs changing03:01
DocScrutinizer05tbh I'm fed up at times03:03
javispedro... fully comprehensible03:04
DocScrutinizer05I step down, HiFo nominates juiceme as woody's successor, problem solved radically03:05
javispedrothough I must say that I was obviously wrong in my bet with woody03:05
javispedro#harmattan is pretty much dead while maemo is still thriving03:05
javispedroso if woody shows up again I owe him some money03:05
javispedroobviously, you are all to blame for keeping maemo alive :)03:06
javispedroj/k s/blame/congratulate/03:06
DocScrutinizer05meanwhile it rots from all sides03:07
javispedrothere's no way around that.03:07
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DocScrutinizer05but obviously a lot of ways to speed that process up significantly03:08
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javispedrobut a certain level of rot may even be desirable to `continuist' types03:08
DocScrutinizer05spreading frustration is a very effective means03:09
DocScrutinizer05and seems now *I* am doing that, passing along the frustration I had to take the last weeks03:09
DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall I chatted with woody and we agreed that Rob failed to understand that maemo is no product but a project03:11
DocScrutinizer05can't be longer than 1 year ago03:11
DocScrutinizer05 "<woody> maemo is not a FOSS project. It's is a commercial product with a number of FOSS elements interwoven."03:13
javispedro<nitpick> he is right03:13
javispedrowell, unless you got the trademark from nokia, I've not been up to date with news :)03:13
DocScrutinizer05he been right as long as Nokia-maemo existed03:13
javispedroback in the oldie days _maemo.org_ was the project03:14
DocScrutinizer05from that POV "maemo" is a trademark, and a part of a domain name, the 2nd level domain03:14
DocScrutinizer05and nothing more03:15
javispedrobut this is just language lawyering03:15 is CC-BY-SA and a FOSS project. Always been03:16
DocScrutinizer05I don't give a shit about Nokia's trademark or product03:16
DocScrutinizer05since the product actually been the maemo hardware platform03:17 the content, of course. Not the URL03:18
javispedro(take into account that woody _loves_ discussing. Remember my early "civilized conversations" with him re harmattan vs fremantle)03:18
DocScrutinizer05but I don't love "discussing" with him anymore03:19
DocScrutinizer05every second sentence is mere nonsense03:20
DocScrutinizer05on the level of "...which proves the moon is NOT made of cheese like YOU said"03:20
DocScrutinizer05when you ask him where this been said, you don't get an answer03:21
DocScrutinizer05instead he starts to explain to you that you can't fetch parts of the moon for your pizza03:22
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DocScrutinizer05and maemo the OS is linux in my book, thus GPL == FOSS03:26
javispedro*cough* Android03:26
DocScrutinizer05and no nvidia driver or closed maemo-dialer changes the fact that linux is not owned by nokia03:27
javispedroso the discussion is that he argues there are nokia (c) binaries on *, and you disagree?03:27
javispedrowell, I suppose its true a ls -lR would show that :)03:28
DocScrutinizer05the FOSS parts in maemo >> Nokia blobs03:28
DocScrutinizer05take away all the blobs and it's still maemo, and still FOSS03:28
javispedrobut it is important imho what's the status of the blobs03:28
DocScrutinizer05the status of the blobs is: Nokia rather burries them. So we're already busted03:29
DocScrutinizer05regarding that03:29
DocScrutinizer05but none of the blobs ever been hosted on maemo.org03:29
javispedrosomething I wanted to say btw03:29
DocScrutinizer05(except that unspeakable stage thing for the akamai server farm. But that's stopped since long already)03:30
javispedrowhat jonwil calls "reverse engineering" is mostly basically decompiling existing (c) binaries03:30
javispedroobviously, nokia being over, no one is going to say a word03:30
javispedrobut they obviously violate clean room requirements and would be rejected by most upstreams03:31
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shaggycathi all! I want buy used Nokia n950, or it's not real?09:36
shaggycatAnybody know, when hardware keyboard  cover to Jolla phone will be avaible?09:37
shaggycati want upgrade my Nokia N900 :(09:37
Tekk_shaggycat: ask jolla?09:38
shaggycatTekk_, are you mean #jolla?09:38
shaggycatirc channel?09:38
Tekk_I mean wherever you would ask them09:38
Hurrianshaggycat: it's on preorder on TMO - the guy posted a prototype of it on his twitter, iirc09:38
Tekk_but maemo is for maemo, not jolla :)09:38
shaggycatHurrian, oh!09:39
shaggycatand, may be anybody sale Nokia n950? Is forum part to sale/buy used phones?09:41
Hurrianyou could post in the buy and sell subforum to look for a N950, but tbh, you really don't want one.09:41
Hurrianthe keyboard doesn't work properly in Harmattan, for one09:42
* Tekk_ wonders if you can still run sailfish on the n95009:43
Hurrianthe screens also have some serious design defects, and can break anytime.09:43
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shaggycatHurrian, i want change my nokia n900, but do not make final choice09:44
Luke-JrI haven't seen a N900 replacement yet :<09:44
shaggycati can use phone ~1 year, may be after 1 year will be released any intresting Linux phone09:44
Tekk_shaggycat: neo900?09:44
shaggycatTekk_, It's very slow :(09:45
shaggycat1Ghz one core CPU it's cry :(09:45
Luke-Jrmeh @ phones09:45
Luke-Jrhandheld computer is what I want09:45
Tekk_2 computers ago I was using a 1 core at 500 mhz with 256 MB of memory o.o09:45
shaggycatbut, in jolla phone like to me elegant body colors, Nokia n900 very... serios phone :(09:46
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shaggycatand... really intrested device is child of Emotiv Insight and Google Glass with true operational system :)09:50
shaggycatit's will be not need of hardware keyboard09:50
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shaggycati can't send message in #jolla channel :(09:51
shaggycatis any user chanell? Is it dev chat?09:52
befordisn't it #jollamobile ?09:52
shaggycatbeford, thank you very much09:52
befordalso there is #sailfishos09:52
shaggycatHurrian, can you send link to subforum of sale used phones, please?09:55
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Luke-Jrhardware keyboard is always a need :P10:00
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shaggycatLuke-Jr, you can print with brain fastly :(10:02
shaggycatbut screen keyboard it's really not good10:02
shaggycatHurrian, how do you think, when will be hw keyboard done with this boy?10:04
shaggycator you cannot have information?10:04
Luke-JrI think you overestimate EEG technology10:05
Luke-Jrif you can enter data at all, it will probably be very slow and painful10:06
shaggycatLuke-Jr, webcam to wath on pupil of the eye, and EEG10:07
shaggycatEEG to mouse click10:07
shaggycator click to keyboard :)10:07
shaggycatok, may be finger ring to click10:10
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shaggycatbrolin_empey, lool like :)10:12
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brolin_empeyThe current week is week number 05 of the year 2014.  Tomorrow (Saturday) is day number 032 of the year.  2 (raised) to the power of 5 = 32 .10:19
brolin_empeyHmm, I just realised the Nokia RX-51 was introduced (publicly released) near the end of the year 2009;  week number 51 is near the end of the year.10:23
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* brolin_empey meant he did not previously associate the 51 in RX-51 with a week number; I already knew the time of introduction of the Nokia RX-51 .10:27
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wndwhat's more, 2**(0+1+4) = 32! coincidence? I think not! :-)10:28
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Tekk_wnd: and you save an instruction if you make it into 2**(1.4)!10:35
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SAiFI remember once using a terminal with | and > easily accesable from the display..  does any one tell me which one is it or point me where I can get it.?10:41
SAiFand somebody please link me to flash 12 faking link... I cant even get the .deb.. all the links are broken...10:42
SAiFshould I rephrase.. o.O10:42
SAiFand where can  I know the exact battery percentage. like from /proc?10:43
SAiFto put in a script...10:43
wndfor battery, search for bq27200.sh10:44
wndit'll show how to use i2cget10:45
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wndfor terminal, see
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SAiFthanks wnd.. :)10:48
wndit might be worth mentioning that I'm now assuming n900 + fremantle10:50
Tekk_SAiF: and flash fake is in a repo :)10:53
Tekk_extras maybe?10:53
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SAiFI think this is what I am looking for.. /sys/bus/i2c/drivers/bq27x00-battery/2-0055/power_supply\:bq27200-0/capacity11:12
wndI think that's available only if you have the kernel module loaded11:14
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hxkaSAiF: See bnf12:21
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SAiFI dont need that hxka .. I get the current value from /sys/class/power_supply/bq27200-0/capacity..13:03
SAiFthe percentage value..13:03
SAiFand thats all I need, :)13:03
SAiFI guess..13:05
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DocScrutinizer51wow, microB segfaulted18:02
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infobot- Uptime for apt -18:03
infobotNow: 9d 4m 39s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux18:03
infobot1: 59d 8h 41m 19s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Sun Nov 14 18:39:57 201018:03
infobot2: 57d 3h 9m 23s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Fri Jun 26 20:39:27 200918:03
infobot3: 36d 20h 47m 14s running infobot 1.5.4 (SVN) -- linux, ended Tue Aug  4 17:38:59 200918:03
jargonmy n900 won't come on anymore. haven't switched it one since july or so. i've got it hooked up to a charger now, and the orange LED is lit18:03
jargoni'm holding down the power button but nothing's happening18:04
DocScrutinizer51~listkeys fl.atba18:05
infobotFactoid search of 'fl.atba' by key returned no results.18:05
infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs is OK (no ~bootloop)!.18:05
* DocScrutinizer51 needs glasses18:06
jargonok let me try that18:06
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infobotit has been said that bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.18:07
DocScrutinizer51can also be caused by dead battery18:08
infobotfrom memory, batteryfaq is
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DocScrutinizer51jargon: odds are when your bat been flat for months, it's dead now and not recoverable18:11
DocScrutinizer51tbh I never seen emergency charge (steady amber) take longer than 2 minutes and still success in the end18:13
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SAiFDoc,, In a nonlit room, what all factors depend on the kbd backlight..?18:14
SAiFslide only or anything else?18:14
jaskamine seems to be on 24/718:15
jaskaeven when slider is closed in the middle of the night18:15
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DocScrutinizer51slide and timeout18:15
SAiFrephrase... keybd backlit depends on what all factors18:15
jaskareboots dont change it18:16
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DocScrutinizer51jaska: R&D mode?18:16
jaskahmm... not sure18:16
DocScrutinizer51or slider magnet lost?18:17
jaskacould be18:17
SAiFso echo open > /prox ; mount -o bind /prox   /sys/device/gpioswitch/slide/status... ??18:17
SAiFshould it stay on all time?18:18
DocScrutinizer51sure, you also could patch kernel in proc/kmem18:19
SAiFbut still mine doesnt stay on.   :(18:20
SAiFslide has got some mechanical issues.. Sometimes  I have to apply force for kbd backlit to turn on,, some times slight adjustment would do.18:21
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Tekk_anyone have mumble working? When I try to install through ham it gives a dep issue. if I do apt it doesn't actually pick up any sound devices23:20
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