IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2013-12-19

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keriohbib: the entire point of the whole exercise is to have something that runs faster10:07
keriohow could it run slower?10:07
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hbibmy understanding of thumb was that it frees RAM, but needs a little longer to execute a command because of the correction mechanisms for the ARM Erratas10:15
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DocScrutinizer05hbib: that's basically correct10:24
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DocScrutinizer05but the saved RAM overcompensates for the slower command execution, particularly when device runs into swapping (which it basically does all the time)10:24
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hbib1DocScrutinizer05: So thumb runs all in all faster? i didn't tried it yet because i was always "afarid" of the cpu overhead ...10:35
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DocScrutinizer05the overhead is not really noticeable, but I must admit I also haven't done proper evaluation of the over-all speed increase from thumb, I just tested browser and it felt quite a bit faster than usual10:37
infobotmethinks cssu-thumb is <DocScrutinizer05> [thumb2 microb] indeed seems to render like mad, subjectively, or, or
DocScrutinizer05my major concern is with evaluation/QA of thumb-recompiled apps10:38
DocScrutinizer05though we haven't seen a thumb-induced bug yet, afaik10:39
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DocScrutinizer05the other main problem is that thumb binaries will make a non-thumb-enabled system segfault to death (I.E. a system that doesn't have the patched kernel, whether that's thuumb-kernel or the recent KP)10:41
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DocScrutinizer05hmm, it just occurred to me if cssu-thumb could use unionfs to mount /opt/usr/bin-thumb/ over /usr/bin and thus replace the arm binaries by their thumbified equivalents. Then restart what needs a restart - e.g. browserd10:44
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DocScrutinizer05this way even a system with a non thumb enabled kernel could start up and even work normally when the process that does the unionfs mount checks if the kernel actually supports thumb-workaround10:45
DocScrutinizer05where's freemangordon when I have something he should notice and consider? :-P10:46
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hbib1if i understand you correct, that would be a nice idea, because it would be possible to switch between thumb and non-thumb without reflashing10:47
DocScrutinizer05basically yes10:48
hbib1and so it would be possible to just test thumb without consequences ...10:48
DocScrutinizer05this particular thumb concept could get installed on every system and wouldn't cause any major trouble, since it kicks in only when it detects it can work10:49
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DocScrutinizer05thus you can install (and of course deinstall) it on arbitrary fremantle systems10:50
hbib1that would be nice!10:52
DocScrutinizer05you'd mount the unionfs in three layers, like /usr/bin over /opt/usr/bin-thumb over (original) /usr/bin, to allow normal updates of apps in /usr/bin. For thumb binary updates you'd update /opt/user/bin-thumb/* rather than /usr/bin10:53
DocScrutinizer05of course the thumb-enabler-daemon could also just bindmount each single thumb binary over its arm counterpart in (/usr)/bin, thus no unionfs needed10:54
DocScrutinizer05but could tend to get messy in output of mount(8)10:55
DocScrutinizer05and the simplest approach is to add /opt/bin-thumb:/opt/sbin-thumb to $PATH10:58
DocScrutinizer05this however would require all other stuff like .desktop files etc to correctly use $PATH concept10:58
hbib1i like the unionfs-idea, because i think it is the easiest and most transparent way ...11:02
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DocScrutinizer05just we lack unionfs drivers on maemo afaik11:11
DocScrutinizer05of course thumb-package could pull them in11:11
DocScrutinizer05I also sorted the alternatives by decreasing appeal to myself11:12
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: there's not enough space though11:41
DocScrutinizer05then make /opt larger11:42
kerioemmc is slow11:42
DocScrutinizer05says who?11:42
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DocScrutinizer05btw to start a few instances of e.g. browserd it's absolutely irrelevant when it takes twice as long11:43
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DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# dd if=/dev/mtd5 of=/dev/null bs=10M count=1011:47
DocScrutinizer0510+0 Datensätze ein11:47
DocScrutinizer0510+0 Datensätze aus11:47
DocScrutinizer05104857600 Bytes (105 MB) kopiert, 5,74506 s, 18,3 MB/s11:47
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# dd if=/dev/mmcblk0p2 of=/dev/null bs=10M count=1011:47
DocScrutinizer0510+0 Datensätze ein11:47
DocScrutinizer0510+0 Datensätze aus11:47
DocScrutinizer05104857600 Bytes (105 MB) kopiert, 6,12222 s, 17,1 MB/s11:47
DocScrutinizer05yeah, emmc is slow11:47
DocScrutinizer05just like NAND is11:47
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: any other questions, Watson?11:49
keriowhy do you have to be so mean tho :c11:50
jaskaborn that way?:)11:50
kerioi still disapprove of having to keep two sets of binaries11:50
kerioespecially if you consider that you have to keep them both updated11:50
DocScrutinizer05with 32GB of storage, I prefer 2 sets of binaroes over a system that worst case doesn't boot anymore11:51
ShadowJKIt's more that writes on the emmc blocks reads, not that reads in themselves are slow11:52
DocScrutinizer05which is irrelevant for the idea sketched above11:52
ShadowJKhow so?11:52
DocScrutinizer05how not?11:52
DocScrutinizer05loading and starting binaries rarely involves any writing to storage11:53
kerioexcept when you're swapping on the emmc itself11:53
DocScrutinizer05you're not going to swap anything more when (re!)starting a binary from eMMC than you have to do when starting same binary (though ARM and thus larger) from NAND11:54
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DocScrutinizer05I rather expect to see RAM getting freed up than to have anything swapped out, when killing ARM browserd and starting thumb browserd from eMMC11:56
ShadowJKbinaries are never loaded in one go, it's all read in on-demand, so if you access a functionality you haven"t touched before in that session (or one that was ejected from ram as it hadnt been used for long), it needs to be read back in. There's all sorts of write activity going on all the time, type a URL in the browser or tap a link can cause up to several seconds of emmc stalls just from the browser history and typed URLs getting updated :)11:56
jon_yif it fits in a page11:56
jon_ythe whole blob is loaded11:56
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: when that were 100% true, then preloading of e.g. browserd makes no sense at all11:56
zamn900too boring and too long for me11:57
ShadowJKbrowser preloading also saves the cpu cycles on load11:57
zamn900oh gosh11:57
jon_yso is all preloaded data executable code?11:58
ShadowJKand coincidentally pulls in lots of library and executable, that later gets thrown out again if there's memory pressure :)11:58
jon_yI can imagine they contain assets that would otherwise be manually loaded later11:58
ShadowJKjon_y; alot of the boost comes from lots of initialization being done in advance11:58
jon_yyou mean in the background?11:59
jon_yWindows and IOS is doing this a lot11:59
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: that's all maybe correct (or maybe not applicable in a number of cases) but highly irrelevant when kerio complains about eMMC being too slow for holding thumb binaries to replace the ARM binaries used during boot from rootfs/NAND11:59
ShadowJKjon_y; that's sort of a different thing12:00
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; i'd do it another way, hold a thumb kernel on emmc so if user despite warnings install non-thumb kernel, there'd be backup one..12:01
DocScrutinizer05which is pretty useless unless you got a uboot kernel12:01
DocScrutinizer05and when you have requirements on the kernel then we are where we started12:02
DocScrutinizer05require,emt: kenel supports thumb12:02
DocScrutinizer05requirememt: kernel supports thumb12:02
DocScrutinizer05otherwise system won't boot12:02
DocScrutinizer05I don't see how a second kernel on eMMC can cure this12:03
ShadowJKI don't like the idea of often used stuff residing on emmc. Too big of a performance penalty :/12:03
DocScrutinizer05how is that a performance penalty?12:03
jonwilDon't expect any more N900/Neo900 work from me anytime soon, my N900 dev box went to the e-waste facility (it was too old to be worth keeping)12:04
DocScrutinizer05actually 50..95% of our binaries live in /opt on eMMC12:04
ShadowJKCan see this with fennec, with fennec, ~/.mozilla/fennec and swap on emmc, it's much much slower than stock browser, but after splitting it up to rootfs, emmc and uSD, it runs about 5 times faster :D12:04
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: would sponsoring a new box help ?12:04
jonwilNot sure that I have much in the way of time to devote either, I will be looking for a new apartment soon (staying with family for now) and I also need to focus a lot more on finding someone to, ya know, pay me to do stuff :)12:06
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: this doesn't sound like a valid argument against my suggestion to use unionfs to switch from plain maemo5 to thumbified maemo5, *after* system boot12:06
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: a pity! we#ll miss your help12:07
ShadowJKthumb and normal system on emmc, choose which one to copy to rootfs on boot or what?12:07
DocScrutinizer05see backscroll please12:07
DocScrutinizer05starting at [2013-12-19 09:44:02] <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, it just occurred to me12:08
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jonwilNot sure exactly what n900 work I could do anyway12:08
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jonwilIf it wasn't for the big $ I am spending on this whole moving house thing, I would be upgrading my main box (Windows 7 PC) to a Core i5 or i7 and turning this Core 2 Duo into a Linux box. But I am broke12:09
ShadowJKYeah I don't like it12:09
ShadowJKI want stuff removed from emmc, not added to it :D12:10
DocScrutinizer05remove emmc then!12:10
ShadowJKThat would be the ultimate goal.12:10
ShadowJKIt's a tape drive, only good for storing huge files :P12:10
DocScrutinizer05I don't see anything better around the corner. and for sure not readily available, for embedded12:11
ShadowJKThough, with a new kernel, and f2fs instead of ext3, it'd be usable12:12
ShadowJKSoldering on a sandisk extreme microsdhc, if it was possible, would be on the order of 3-4 magnitudes improvement actually12:13
jonwilso mostly its my lack of dev box and my lack of motivation to do n900 work that is my problem right now12:13
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: while we possibly could help with the former, the latter is a killer argument12:14
DocScrutinizer05when Neo900 and fremantle porting is no motivation to you, I'm afraid we can't find anything to motivate you12:15
jonwilI suspect if I had a specific narrow target to focus on, my motivation would come back.My problem right now is that I keep jumping from binary to binary looking for things to reverse engineer, trying one, giving up because its too hard, trying another one, etc12:17
DocScrutinizer05maybe your goals are to hard to reach, so the joy of achieving them is what lacks12:18
DocScrutinizer05too hard*12:19
zamn900I said is rto12:20
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jonwilI do wonder if anyone has done anything notable with the MCE code yet12:24
jonwildoesn't look like it from what I can see :)12:25
DocScrutinizer05anyway I have a todo list the length of a roll of toilet paper, for today. appointment with my med. doc, searching for info about founding a company (actually a "limited"), writing some letters to municipal office on related stuff, tax office to get a new company tax number, writing some review of Neo900 lower board mech evaluation, open letter ("to FSF") about Neo900 privacy concept and infeasibility to comply with some particular rules12:26
DocScrutinizer05regarding FSF and their take on a free system, writing a huge spec about what to implement in which way on Neo900 hardware and related on FPTF12:26
jonwilI will certainly contribute inputs on the FPTF threat on thoughts about how to do things12:26
DocScrutinizer05some people are using it, one bug been spotted iirc, I published a patch (binary edit for now) for indicator LED which pali/fmg want to implement to CSSU12:27
DocScrutinizer05(MCE that is)12:27
DocScrutinizer05fixing the engine3 idiocy is on my ToDo list12:28
DocScrutinizer05now that we actually _can_ do this12:28
zamn900oh god bless you12:28
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: how about adding a software driven kbd-backlight ramp-up/down function into your mce?12:29
DocScrutinizer05should be pretty simple12:29
jonwilexcept that right now I cant actually compile things :)12:30
DocScrutinizer05** PROBLEM Service Alert: is WARNING **12:31
jonwilso its a vicious cycle, I cant do dev work so I dont have inspiration. And because I dont have inspiration, I dont have the energy to try and get e.g. a dev VM going.12:31
DocScrutinizer05DISK WARNING - free space: / 9 MB (0% inode=94%):12:31
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jonwilmy biggest wish is that Nokia would somehow see the light and release more code. Or failing that, a copy of the latest version of IDA (and HexRays including ARM) would come down in price to the point where it was something I could buy :P12:34
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jonwilbut yeah mostly its just the fact that it was not worth the expense to move my ancient dev box (i.e. it would have cost more to move than it was worth)12:53
jonwilthat and it was starting to fil12:53
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DocScrutinizer05I hope you found the HDD worth backing up or moving it13:02
jonwilI backed up the conrtents13:03
jonwilso I have anything of value from it on an external HDD13:03
jonwiljust as a set of files, not an actual filesystem though :)13:03
jonwilI just backed up everything over FTP that my limited-user account had read privileges for :)13:04
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DocScrutinizer05I would offer to find some sponsoring to get you a cheap i3 for maybe 300$, but since you say you lack motivation, it's hard to motivate donors to help you getting bored with a new box13:05
jonwilyeah the hardware is not really the major issue, its the fact that I need to find actual paid work more than I need to hack Neo900 stuff13:06
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DocScrutinizer05I found that not having a job made me do too much maemo work. But I tried to revert that and it turned out the causality is one way13:07
DocScrutinizer05IOW doing less for maemo didn't help find me a job13:08
DocScrutinizer05au contraire13:08
DocScrutinizer05I'm now trying to make maemo my job13:08
DocScrutinizer05not that this panned out too fine so far, but at least it's a perspective13:09
DocScrutinizer05oooh, didn't you say you had to move because of your job?13:09
jonwilI had to move because I couldn't find a job in my old location13:09
jonwilthat and the rent was getting too high13:10
jonwilWell what really happened is that the landlord told me the lease wasn't going to be renewed and after examining my prospects for finding something suitable, decided to move to another state where the availability of good rental properties is much better13:11
DocScrutinizer05well, I have to get some stuff done, related to aforementioned maemo-related "job" and the whole topic. So bbl13:11
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vi__DocScrutinizer05: ping15:50
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DocScrutinizer05vi__: ping, 60s16:12
DocScrutinizer05pong, even16:13
DocScrutinizer05hurry, 20s left over16:13
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deepyfor all you mosh naysayers19:17
deepy98 packets transmitted, 58 packets received, 40% packet loss19:17
deepyround-trip min/avg/max = 236.389/656.982/3051.667 ms19:17
deepyI can still irc, even with a 40 percent packetloss19:18
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qwazixchem|st, are you around?22:02
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merlin1991hbib: did anything implode yet?23:02
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hbibmerlin1991: nope, everything works fine :)23:05
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