IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2013-11-22

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deepyHow do I turn on mass-storage mode? nothing happens when I plug it in to my computer01:17
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DocScrutinizer05then something is not working correctly on your computer or your device (or cable)01:29
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cehtehback-cover removed?01:32
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deepycharging it works fine though01:44
deepyNope, back-cover is there01:45
deepycharging it with the ccable attached to e wal01:45  might help, but it's not supposed to be needed, you should see a popup menu as soon as you plug the device to a PC01:47
deepyno pop-up, no banner01:48
DocScrutinizer05lsmod|grep g_file_storage01:48
DocScrutinizer05probably you installed a kernel and during that messed up the kernel modules?01:49
DocScrutinizer05or your USB is broken01:54
DocScrutinizer05is your PC a linux system?01:54
deepynope, windows01:55
deepycan I use the exchange interface to sync gmail email? contacts work fine01:56
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xesdeepy: sometimes may happen that usb data connection stops working. Poweroff the N900..wait a minute, then power up it again (no reboot)01:57
deepyI'll try that tomorrow01:58
DocScrutinizer05xes: we found a 1GB PoP RAM chip02:00
xeswow! Great!02:00
nox-neo900 will have 1 GB ram?02:01
xesDocScrutinizer05: have you found a schematics with that useful chip?02:05
DocScrutinizer05nah, some user pointed me at a micron site I visited several times already but managed to miss the relevant detail02:05
DocScrutinizer05nox-: I hope so02:07
nox-very nice :)02:08
nox-Depth 256Mb02:10
DocScrutinizer05depth is irrelevant02:11
nox-i c02:11
DocScrutinizer05density is the key value02:11
DocScrutinizer05depth is probably the number of bits the controller reads/writes in parallel from the cell matrix02:12
xesDocScrutinizer05: this could be interesting:
DocScrutinizer051st guess: L202:13
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DocScrutinizer05mhm, L402:18
DocScrutinizer05well, probably a configuration question02:18
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DocScrutinizer05xes: I actually wonder which config has which benefits, comparing L2 (which I had oped for) and L402:37
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xesDocScrutinizer05: probably we should choose between L2 or L4 considering which chip is still available02:52
*** arcean has quit IRC03:00 fact there is no MT46H256M32L2JV-5 IT available.. L4 is the only option to obtain 1GB - and also it is tagged as "contact factory" (not in production)03:00
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DocScrutinizer05micron tagged it as "recommended for new designs"04:03
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DocScrutinizer05OHDAMN! only the R404:07
DocScrutinizer05  :ยด(04:10
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bef0rdN900 booting XNU :o04:53
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, afk is Away From Keyboard11:45
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vi__What is the obsession with metal phones?12:30
vi__Do people not realise metal blocks RF?12:31
mashina"but cheap"12:32
mashina...but people don't realize metal can feel cheap too12:32
mashinai have a stack of nokia C3s and they might have a metal back but it feels cheap12:32
mashinamy plastic N900? not so much. even a samsung (infamous for cheap plastic) feels fairly solid12:32
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solofightwhat tool do you guys use to convert your pc into a wifi hotspot ?14:46
solofighti own a nokia n900 and when i try mhotspot tool - the device is not able to get an ip address from the software14:47
solofightany ideas ?14:47
psycho_oreosmobilehotspot tool turns your N900 into a wifi sort of hotspot. I don't know why you would want to do that when you want to turn your PC into a wifi hotspot.14:50
solofightpsycho_oreos: i have a usb data card internet connected to my PC. I want to convert my PC into a hotspot so that i can connect my n900 to it for internet14:51
psycho_oreossolofight, so I'd use something like USB tethering, it seems miles easier.14:52
solofightpsycho_oreos: any suggestion on the tool to do that ?14:53
psycho_oreossolofight, it is on the maemo wiki.14:54
psycho_oreosCalled something like USB networking.14:54
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solofightpsycho_oreos: thanks - read about it in the maemo docs... but that procedure will only enable maemo devices to connect right ? But if i can make my laptop a wifihotspot then i can connect any devices right ?15:00
psycho_oreossolofight, virtually any other devices can connect yes. Though you still need knowledge on networking in order to make sense of it all.15:01
solofightpsycho_oreos: i am a fast learner15:01
psycho_oreossolofight, so learn TCP/IP networking. It will give you a huge insight of how to troubleshoot networking issues.15:02
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psycho_oreosTo think collectively, nobody can learn TCP/IP completely in overnight. If you are looking for a more sane option in the time being. I suggest to look for a simpler solution rather than a do-all, be-all, end-all solution. That is get one device to work at a time if and when you need that other device to use your computer's internet connection rather than understanding the entire underlying protocols.15:12
psycho_oreosHad it been me I would have deduced from a more easier option in the mean time as learning TCP/IP does not necessarily grant me the wisdom to tackle a simple problem at hand. solofight15:13
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vi__just run mobile hotspot shell script.15:26
vi__It puts your NIC into master(?) mode and routes you through iptables.15:27
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psycho_oreosmobile hotspot.. what? on N900? master/AP mode on N900?15:28
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winocmstill need to implement twl4030 keypad support later15:30
winocmand watchdog15:30
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vi__psycho_oreos: ...yes.15:43
vi__what is surprising about this?15:44
psycho_oreost... *facepalms* you do realise that is not real master/AP mode on N900 right?15:44
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vi__u wot mate.16:07
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vi__I thought the updated wl1251 driver supported ap mode.16:09
psycho_oreos1) I am not your mate, 2) master/AP mode on wl1251 has been widely discussed from long time ago.16:09
vi__Don't facepalm at me son.16:09
vi__Well fuck you too then.16:09
Wizzupwe are all one under the teapot16:10
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DocScrutinizer05play nice, kids!16:29
DocScrutinizer05softmac would allow AP mode16:30
DocScrutinizer05if some smart hacker would implement a softmac for WL125116:30
zamn900what's up DocScrutinizer0516:31
DocScrutinizer05busy as usual16:32
DocScrutinizer05softmac would need to exploit monitor and injection16:33
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DocScrutinizer05and aiui both has been enabled by the improved wlan drivers16:33
psycho_oreosAs I last understood it, proper master/AP mode requires tertiary firmware which TI will never release.16:35
DocScrutinizer05for hardmac sure16:35
DocScrutinizer05you understand the concept of softmac?16:35
psycho_oreosYeah roughly, the firmware sits on the host machine as a file requiring the host machine to shove that firmware onto the chip in order to make use of it.16:36
jaskanah, softmac = host machine does the job of the tertiary firmware16:36
DocScrutinizer05the whole stack is handled on Application Processor Environment (aka "in the driver") and the WLAN chip only used as PHY16:36
HurrianAP mode firmware for wl1251 was never released?16:36
DocScrutinizer05psycho_oreos: nope, that's hardmac16:37
jaskausually the wlan chip will do some of the timing-critical stuff even in softmac16:37
DocScrutinizer05since the "cpu" that exectutes the firmware is in the WLAN chip16:37
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, hardmac requires flashing, softmac doesn't need that.16:37
DocScrutinizer05that's correct however doesn't tell much16:37
DocScrutinizer05though "flashing" is relative term here16:38
DocScrutinizer05uploading firmware also is a valid way to run hardmac16:38
DocScrutinizer05doesn't matter if it's done once and stored in wlan flash or if it's done each time on chip init16:39
DocScrutinizer05in softmac the whole stack is run on APE, while with hardmac the "firmware" runs on a cpu in wlan chip16:39
psycho_oreosInitially hardmac's implmentation was into some EEPROM, though manufacturers have transitioned slowly away from EEPROM to more host dependent firmware.16:40
DocScrutinizer05while that's partially correct representation of historical facts, it's quite unrelated to the differentiation between softmac and hardmac16:41
psycho_oreosThe real question here is, has the master/AP mode been finally implemented on N900?16:41
psycho_oreosIn other words, can one simply run hostapd and it will work?16:41
DocScrutinizer05right, it is the question if somebody has created a comprehensive softmac for 125116:42
psycho_oreos^ In a nutshell, no. Simply put.16:42
DocScrutinizer05(since I don't hope for a AP-enabled firmware blob to show up ever)16:42
psycho_oreosI wouldn't be holding my breath on one.16:43
DocScrutinizer05(which would allow for hardmac-based AP mode)16:43
psycho_oreosPeople often confuse mobilehotspot and the like program on N900 as if N900 has some proper master/AP mode. Technically that is not the case, clearly iwconfig tells one that it is in Ad-Hoc mode.16:44
DocScrutinizer05jaska: yep16:44
DocScrutinizer05psycho_oreos: also yep16:45
DocScrutinizer05~woli softmac16:45
DocScrutinizer05~wiki softmac16:45
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{update|date=July 2013}} A 'wireless network interface controller' (WNIC) is a network interface controller which connects to a radio-based computer network rather than a wire-based network such as Token Ring or Ethernet. A WNIC, just like other NICs, works on the Layer 1 and Layer 2 of the OSI Model. A WNIC is an essential component for wireless desktop computer. This card uses an ...16:46
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DocScrutinizer05~bash wikipedia16:47
* infobot beats wikipedia with ksh16:47
psycho_oreosOld prism54 driver website had a fairly good explanation of softmac drivers in a nutshell.16:48
psycho_oreosAnyway we can go on forever endlessly discussing differences between hard and softmac. It doesn't change anything for the fact that wl1251 remains incapable of doing proper master/AP mode.16:49
DocScrutinizer05dang, you beat me to it16:49
psycho_oreosHaha, I can say we think alike lol.16:50
psycho_oreosWell on that part that is..16:50
DocScrutinizer05psycho_oreos: how so? wl1251 could support softmac and then anybody savvy enough can inplement proper AP mode16:50
Hurrianthing is, i doubt you'll find a wl1251 AP mode firmware floating around, WiLink4.0 wasn't used on many devices.16:51
Hurrianplus, implementing AP mode support in-driver for it would be an enormous PITA16:51
HurrianI just finished doing AP mode enablement for the N9, the commits add up to around half the driver in itself :/16:51
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer05, I thought wl1251 was already largely a softmac for that matter. Also yes anyone could implement it but nobody would actually do it. Which is a dilemma in itself.16:52
DocScrutinizer05aiui packet injection allows WLAN chip to get used as "PHY" and thus defining packets to get sent completely under software control16:52
DocScrutinizer05and packet injection enabled drivers have been published long time ago16:53
DocScrutinizer05same goes for monitor mode and RX16:53
psycho_oreoskvalo for instance would easily be able to write one up easily, afterall he was the one that ported the support for linux. Though would he release an master/AP capable driver/firmware? unlikely.16:53
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HurrianDocScrutinizer05: it'd be pretty much a PoC then - you'd have to be in promisc to grap ALL the frames from all STA and then filter it out, then decode packets.16:54
DocScrutinizer05Hurrian: that's exactly what softmac does16:55
DocScrutinizer05that's also the reason why we can't use softmac for embedded: it keeps CPU busy all the time and cuts thru battery in hours16:56
DocScrutinizer05that however doesn't mean the wl1251 never could do it16:56
HurrianI guess having a dumb RF frontend passing you the frames saves you the FFT needed to decode it from all the other RF, but all that processing has to take some crazy toll on the N900's 343016:57
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DocScrutinizer05we're not talking about SDR here16:58
DocScrutinizer05WLAN tuners/decoders are usually not FFT based16:58
Hurrianyep, yep, I meant that compared to full SDR, it's not as big a performance hit, but still, it's a big performance hit :P16:58
DocScrutinizer05way too mcuh overhead for nothing16:58
DocScrutinizer05I'm not comletely sure which modulation WLAN is using, but I'm absolutely sure they use hw-demodulators in the WLAN chip16:59
DocScrutinizer05WLAN chips use discrete tuner and hw decoders/demodulators17:02
DocScrutinizer05that's the "PHY" level17:03
psycho_oreosAhh I see where I went wrong with my quote, I was generalising. Let me correct my quote. I meant that in WL1251's current stance it is incapable of doing master/AP mode, for the greater public.17:03
DocScrutinizer05on top of that works either a fullmac/hardmac protocol stack on a dedicated CPU in the WLAN chip, or a softmac protocol stack implemented on the host in a softmac driver17:04
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DocScrutinizer05wl1251 by design is a hardmac chip17:04
DocScrutinizer05with the firmware getting loaded on each chip init from APE17:05
DocScrutinizer05(other hardmac chips may have the firmware on local flash storage)17:05
DocScrutinizer05but you can run almost every arbitrary hardmac-enabled chip in softmac mode17:06
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DocScrutinizer05suspending the chip's CPU and controlling the PHY aka radio directly from APE17:06
psycho_oreosThat's what prism54 project did, making a hardmac act as a softmac where everything is much more easier to work with.17:07
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DocScrutinizer05prism54 had a CPU and most cards came with a hardmac firmware, yes17:08
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psycho_oreosI guess wl1251 is the same more or less. I mean a real hardmac would still boot without the firmware in place in theory. However it was made to act like a softmac because it was probably far easier to implement.17:08
DocScrutinizer05not all cards came with a flash to store the firmware on it17:08
psycho_oreosYeah because of the cost factor supposedly, but there's other contributing factors.17:08
DocScrutinizer05nevertheless you could run all prism54 in softmac mode, not using the on-chip CPU at all17:09
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DocScrutinizer05or just to forward register values to inerface and vice versa17:10
psycho_oreosThat was what gave birth to p54, amongst two other main issues when dealing with fullmac mode.17:10
DocScrutinizer05the prism54 project also worked on a FOSS hardmac "firmware" implementation17:11
DocScrutinizer05but afaik that got abandoned eventually17:11
psycho_oreosThat sort of reminds me of b43's fwwf project.17:11
DocScrutinizer05since the documentation of the on-chip CPU and system at large never been comprehensive enough to make that FOSS hardmac a reall success17:11
psycho_oreosI mean in a different sense of course, it was a FOSS alternative to softmac but was free.17:12
DocScrutinizer05there's a working softmac FOSS implementation for prism5417:12
psycho_oreosSupposedly the history states that intersil was once very open about the specs with their hardware, hence that was why the support was widespread. After conexant took over, the policy radically changed.17:12
psycho_oreosNot islsm I think it is right?17:13
DocScrutinizer05again: softmac: code runs on linux APE CPU. Hardmac: code runs on a dedicated CPU insde WLAN chip17:13
DocScrutinizer05  ;-)17:15
psycho_oreosHeh cheers, looking at this old link brings back nostalgia. Yeah freemac was the right word.17:17
DocScrutinizer05>>SoftMAC works with all chipsets, even those designed for FullMAC<<17:18
psycho_oreosYeah again, that was what became p54 project. Forcing fullmac devices to act as softmac so that they are on the same level playing field as those softmac by design chipsets.17:19
DocScrutinizer05and that could basically be done with any hardmac chip17:20
DocScrutinizer05and nothing stops you from implementing AP-mode aka infrastructure-mode into your softmac17:21
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DocScrutinizer05btw lekernel is an active user in #openmoko-cdevel and #qi-hardware17:23
DocScrutinizer05hmm, maybe not so active in #openmoko-cdevel lately17:24
psycho_oreosIn theory of course for the wl1251, the fact still remains that wl1251 does not have master/AP mode in its current implementation for the public.17:24
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DocScrutinizer05yes, the firmware doesn't support AP mode17:24
psycho_oreosThat handle brings back memories, I remember talking to him one day about p54u stuff coincidentally.17:24
DocScrutinizer05and possibly the on-chip CPU is simply not capable of supporting it17:24
psycho_oreosInitially people were hoping for a tertiary firmware, but of course that never happened. To implement master/AP mode on the host machine still requires someone with intimate knowledge of the wl1251 chipset. Which again points back to kvalo.17:26
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psycho_oreosI was looking for an old screenshot of prism54 with iwconfig when it is not associated. It had a cool description (for what it was back then). Also I remember earlier NIT devices featured STelectronics wlan which were similar to something off the intersil family.17:31
DocScrutinizer05>>We are pleased to inform all our Jolla pre-booking customers that you will soon receive instructions on how to complete your order via our webshop. ... In order to secure your priority delivery during December, please make sure you have completed your purchase by 2 December, 2013.<<17:32
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sonodon't tempt me doc17:33
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sonoi only need one phone =p17:33
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psycho_oreosAhh found something that would suffice: (first thread, check the iwconfig output). Pure nostalgia when using prism54 driver.17:37
PaliDocScrutinizer05: wl1251 using mac80211 so it is sotfmac driver17:38
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PaliTI wl1251 driver support -- This will enable TI wl1251 driver support. The drivers make use of the mac80211 stack.17:40
Paliwl1251 is softmac driver for sure17:40
Palithere is monitor mode which comes from mac80211 stack17:41
Palip54 driver is softmac too (it using new softmac firmware also for old devices which was previously hardmac...)17:42
PaliDocScrutinizer05: but softmac is not enough for AP mode17:42
Palidriver/firmware must support AP17:43
psycho_oreosHahaha we were just discussing that moments ago, seems like the ramifications just don't end. :D17:43
Paliand our wl1251 firmware does not support it17:43
Palionly month ago TI released redistributable firmware for wl125117:43
Paliand md5sum of that released firmware is same as in n90017:44
psycho_oreoso.O lol in other words TI is still firm on their policy of no master/AP mode.17:44
DocScrutinizer05>>Ti wl1251 is a softmac (software based Media Access Control) and has firmware sitting on the oneNAND which normally is uploaded<< sounds pretty much paradox ( )17:44
DocScrutinizer05softmac == NO FIRMWARE17:46
DocScrutinizer05since firmware is running on CPU on WLAN chip, which is pretty much the definition of hardmac17:47
PaliDocScrutinizer05: no, with softmac driver you are implementing MAC layer in kernel driver, but this is not enough for AP17:47
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's what I'm elaborating on since ~ 1h17:47
Palihmmm... maybe it is possible to use packet injection to implement AP in SW?17:48
DocScrutinizer05and if MAC layer was implemented completely in kernel driver, then our dear battery was depleted in 4h17:48
DocScrutinizer05Pali: see what I wrote above17:48
DocScrutinizer05yes, softmac/software based AP would exploit injection mode17:49
psycho_oreosYou know, there was something else also ironically funny. nokia supposedly patented the tethering to computer or something which forces android phones to come with master/AP mode when using something like wifi hotspot. Now there are some old android devices with wl1251 chipset in them I am certain. I wonder how will the manufacturers treat those instance? still enforce Ad-Hoc? or not have a compatible program for wifi hotspot with affected devices?17:49
DocScrutinizer05and monitor mode17:49
psycho_oreosYeah in fact aircrack-ng's project specifically targets that, notably the tool is airbase-ng.17:50
psycho_oreosOne is able to create a fake AP which would broadcast in monitor mode as if it is a real AP.17:51
Palimaybe we can ask hostapd developers if it is possible to implement AP support with monitor + packet injection17:51
psycho_oreosI somehow don't think that is a good idea.17:52
psycho_oreoswifi chipset manufacturers are already somewhat unhappy that rfmon was found by hackers and made it available to the public. If one were to implement AP support via the loophole would enrage manufacturers to patch rfmon.17:54
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psycho_oreosbroadcom for instance I bet deliberately removed rfmon functionality from their wl driver but have left the functionality within the windows driver:
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Ken-YoungI have an N950 which is in perfect shape, and which I never use.   I can't sell it, because I don't really own it; It's on "loan" from Nokia, and I'm pretty confident they'll never come looking for it.   What should I do with it?   Is there any community project that could really make good use of a "donated" N950?22:45
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DocScrutinizer05Ken-Young: nope23:09
DocScrutinizer05My suggestion: sell it, but for not less than 1500$23:09
DocScrutinizer05or simply keep it23:10
DocScrutinizer05to brag ;-)23:10
sixwheeledbeastI'd suggest donating to a future Coding Comp if you really don't want it.23:10
DocScrutinizer05that's a brilliant idea23:11
Win7Macgreat idea!23:11
Ken-YoungDocScrutinizer05, I wouldn't feel right about selling it; I feel bad enough already for having let it sit idle for so long.   I don't own it.   I've just *got* it.23:11
Ken-YoungI guess I should see if some Mer or Sailfish person wants it.23:11
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I know the contract23:11
DocScrutinizer05definitely mer and sailfish are not nokia ;-)23:12
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Ken-YoungI'd certainly be willing to put it up as the prize in a coding competition.23:12
DocScrutinizer05rather nokia's hardest competitor23:12
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DocScrutinizer05that would be best use, and actually in the sense of the contract you probably signed23:12
DocScrutinizer05all the loaners been supposed to get handed on to next developer when not used anymore (admittedly on Nokia requesting that)23:13
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DocScrutinizer05I think a pize for a competition on maemo coding is 100% in spirit of that regulation23:14
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sixwheeledbeastThis is why I suggest CC, it will hopefully find a dev willing to code for harmattan. That was the point of them after all ;)23:15
DocScrutinizer05sorry, afk for an inverview ;-)23:15
Ken-YoungHmmmm - I'd be more excited by a Fremantle competition.23:16
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