IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-10-02

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dos1is that even possible? how could that be usable without proper antenna?00:23
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dos1wouldn't it be extremely easy to detect?00:25
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pdanekPrevious versions of Intel Anti-Theft Technology enabled authorized IT  or service personnel to send a coded "poison pill" over the Internet to  completely disable a lost or stolen computer and help prevent access to  its encrypted data and deter theft. New Intel AT 3.0 enables the poison  pill to be sent as an encrypted, authenticated SMS message by an  authorized administrator over a 3G cellular network as well within  moments after a missing laptop is tur00:30
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dos1pdanek: but I'd guess it that applies only to devices with 3g modem integrated00:34
dos1some netbooks or similar stuff00:35
dos1cpu with 3g communication seems crazy00:35
pdanekFor me, it's that simple, Intel Anti-Theft Technology = reason why there is 3G radio chip.00:38
pdanekAs it's written in link I sent above: Intel Anti-Theft Technology Ver. 3.0 (AT 3.0), included on all 2nd generation Intel Core and Core vPro processors.00:39
dos1pdanek: well, I don't care about the reason00:39
pdanekSo it's included in CPU.00:39
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dos1I care about technical aspects00:39
pdanekDon't worry, NSA isn't going to take over your laptop. :)00:40
pdanekBut you are right00:40
pdanekit's stranhe w/o antenna00:40
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dos1not only that - 3g needs registration to the bts00:44
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dos1and such feature would need cooperation of all carieers on the world00:45
dos1(i don't see "works only in usa" anywhere)00:45
dos1and hell, I have speakers near the laptop00:45
dos1I can hear very clearly if my mobile phone is near them :P00:46
dos1such 3g modem can't get any sms if it's not associated with any base station, and I never heard it associating :P00:47
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pdanekyou're right01:13
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okiasHey guys, I noticed neo900 project. Did you looked at Jolla specs? Why can't be used Jolla HW setup for n900?01:38
okiaswhy not join forces with jolla..01:39
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psycho_oreosJolla's specs initially were somewhat quite vague. I guess that may have caused Neo900 to go quite a different path, besides both groups now have completely different approaches.01:41
okiasI'm afraid that n900 (maemo) model is not enough these days to bring developers make apps :( it needs some marketing.. (at least that Jolla have)01:43
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dos1well, jolla is just another commercial device01:43
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okiasdos1: it's based on opensource.. so..01:43
dos1i mean, jolla device, not jolla itself :)01:43
dos1okias: well, so is android. and what?01:43
dos1neo900 is open, hackable design in both software and hardware01:44
dos1continuing openmoko and openphoenux path in this regard01:44
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pdanekneo900 is great initiative but it will never attract mass market01:46
pdanekit will be hackable gadget like OpenMoko Freerunner was.01:46
okiaspdanek: :( yeah01:46
psycho_oreosNor would Jolla make a nice impact in the already packed handheld market.01:46
dos1fortunately, it's not meant to be mass market device anyway01:46
okiasdos1: and if you remember how openmoko ended (at least in czech republic, everyone was happy when it was released... but usability ?? :D not too much )01:47
pdanekwell Jolla already reached 50 000 preorder registrations01:47
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pdanekand they have a big focus for Chinese market01:47
dos1okias: yes, and we took the lession from that01:47
dos1okias: that's why neo900 project is based on both gta04 and maemo01:47
okiasdos1: I like hackable things, but you have to spread it into world01:47
pdanekYea, OpenMoko is legend in Czech, still people are excited about it on every LinuxAlt session in Brno :D01:48
okiasdos1: there need to be normal "android-like" apps too01:48
psycho_oreosAndroid iinm sees 500,000 activation. So what? Jolla still remains niche, at the end of the day.01:48
okiaspdanek: as n900 :D01:48
dos1so from both sw and hw sides we have some good ground to base on01:48
dos1something that openmoko was clearly missing01:48
wmaronepsycho_oreos: everyone is niche at the start01:48
okiasdos1: well, sw is little bit deprecated (as I see in my n900 with cssu)01:48
psycho_oreoswmarone, yeah but I wouldn't suspect Jolla to pick up the trend amongst the market where people would either prefer android or iOS.01:49
wmaroneor simply choose them because they are the options available?01:49
dos1okias: but it's there, and it's pretty stable01:49
dos1and well, this is open platform01:49
pdanekSailfish is actually very modern & up-to-date OS.01:49
okiasdos1: well, in that.. you have right01:49
pdanekAnd HW-wise, it's "enough."01:49
psycho_oreosNo, it's not only because of the options available but because of many factors including their peers and their preferences.01:50
dos1so no one is limited by any means to just one right OS01:50
okiasdos1: well, it just need big community (or company) support01:50
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dos1okias: small steps first01:51
dos1something needs to be done before big community or company support can be reached01:51
okiasdos1: well, company support it's own product01:51
dos1and I believe Neo900 is exactly this "something"01:51
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dos1okias: I mean, "big company"01:51
psycho_oreosIf one has an issue with say for example on android, they could ask maybe their next door neighbour who might just happen to own something powered by android. If it was running maemo even for instance, there's very little support in reality. Thereby it forces people to seek support like online where there may find people sharing similar interests.01:52
dos1let's buy Neo900 as crazy and make Goldelico very big company, so it'll be able to produce more amazing stuff for us! :)01:52
okiasdos1: well, for good selling product you need combination good hw+sw... then if you compare goals of neo900(mid-hw)+maemo(x11) vs jolla(high-hw)+jolla(wayland based)..01:53
okiasand Jolla will have it hard anyway01:54
dos1okias: and? jolla device is not interesting for me at all01:54
okiasdos1: why not?01:54
pdanekNeo900 will never become real competitor to Jolla.01:54
dos1unless it'll be as open as freerunner, gta04 or neo90001:54
DocScrutinizer05not on our agenda :-)01:54
okiasdos1: I hope it will be01:54
RiDI am with you dos101:54
RiDi have no interest at jolla01:55
dos1looks like it won't01:55
okiasdos1: why?01:55
dos1if it will, I'll support them with my whole heart :P01:55
psycho_oreosI'm certain Neo900's goal was to never dominate let alone compete with Jolla. If you look at it from an average Joe's point of view, Neo900 has hardware keyboard and is basically living off the fame of N900, Jolla is more like n9 and would probably attract those who liked n9's style.01:55
DocScrutinizer05why compete when you can buy ;-P01:55
dos1okias: it doesn't even look like their own OS will be 100% free01:56
pdanekJolla is most probably going to have other-half HW keyboard as well01:56
pdanekI think most of N900 users, including me, will just buy Jolla01:56
psycho_oreosThe keyword there is: "probably".01:56
DocScrutinizer05well, I don't see that yet01:56
pdanekif they didn't switch to Android yet01:56
psycho_oreosDon't forget that.01:56
psycho_oreosSo far videos of Jolla released has not demonstrated hardware keyboard.01:57
pdaneksmall portion of people who had N900 + OpenMoko guys, will go for Neo90001:57
DocScrutinizer05and I never will go for crappy clumsy c-ts01:57
pdanekok, most probably01:57
RiDdoes jolla even support landscape?01:57
RiDapart from maybe videos and games01:57
dos1pdanek: well, why do you think we aim for selling 200-300 devices? :)01:57
psycho_oreosNobody also knows what sort of package management, application ecology, etc is like for Jolla.01:57
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DocScrutinizer05N9 never been a pocket computer, unlike N90001:58
dos1we could assume we'll sell 10 000 of them and announce prices based on that assumption from the beginning01:58
DocScrutinizer05jolla will be the next N901:58
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dos1but we're not doing that01:58
DocScrutinizer05Nokia NIT series ended with N90001:58
RiDwho knows what will happen in 2018 if nokia doesn't go complete bankrupt01:59
RiDNokia HAL900001:59
dos1we're perfectly aware about who our target consumer is01:59
psycho_oreosRiD, running windows 8 *snickers*01:59
RiDha I just tried some nokia windows 8 phone today02:00
dos1N900 lovers + Openmoko lovers + "I'd buy GTA04 if it had hw keyboard" guys02:00
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dos1Neo900 is created mainly for those groups in mind02:00
okiasso, at least in neo900, will be normal (uncrippled) apt-get ?02:00
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psycho_oreosTo be frank nokia sold off their mobile platform branch already to microsoft in a non-exclusive mutual deal. I wouldn't be surprised when the contract ends, nokia would  have all these windows developers and their fans looking forward to the next iteration of their mobile platform (let alone if the company still exists).02:01
dos1of course anyone else is welcomed :) but we don't expect anyone else to go crazy about neo90002:01
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okiasand wayland replacement of x11 would be nice :)02:01
dos1okias: it's an open platform, just like PC02:01
dos1okias: you're free to install full Debian GNU/Linux on it02:02
DocScrutinizer05okias: no, there will be no OS at all "in Neo900"02:02
okiasdos1: as we both know, it will be damn hard to use it as phone02:02
dos1there's FSO in Debian repo, so it should be even usable as a phone02:02
pdanek1Look at OpenMoko Freerunner I know people who were excited for it, playing with it etc.02:02
pdanek1But it was never fully usable device, it was rather a toy. So nobody should expect fully-polished device for end-user experience.02:02
dos1there were some people using Debian on Freerunner as their main phones02:03
okiasdos1: I met them :P it was funny02:03
DocScrutinizer05pdanek1: so what?02:03
dos1pdanek1: Neo900 should be just as polished as N900 was02:03
psycho_oreosAt the end of the day, you choose what you want to use. Whether you like some commercially made platform and apps then you can get Jolla, otherwise there's Openmoko's Neo900.02:03
pdanek1DocScrutinizer05: my net is dropping, my sentences are getting lost in context, forget it :D02:03
DocScrutinizer05btw I used OM FR for my main and only daily phone for a year02:03
dos1I'm using OM FR for my main and only daily phone for five years02:04
psycho_oreosThere's never a need to be nitpicky about either one or both those platforms, they both have different aims.02:04
dos1with small break for N90002:04
RiDi'm... using N900 for my main and only daily phone for 3 years 4 months02:04
pdanek1dos1: ou!02:04
okiaspsycho_oreos: yeah, but Jolla has much more powerfull hw02:05
dos1psycho_oreos: +102:05
okiaspsycho_oreos: you know, sometimes you need crack some wpa on your phone :P02:05
psycho_oreosokias, again you're comparing two different perspectives which I was pointing out earlier that it was the wrong idea.02:05
DocScrutinizer05okias: really?02:05
okiasDocScrutinizer05: with n900 I never tried :P but it would be nice02:06
psycho_oreosokias, WPA is not crackable in the near future if one has enforced proper security measures. Don't even go onto WPA cracking for handheld's, it'll take you years.02:06
DocScrutinizer05WPA is not cracked yet02:07
DocScrutinizer05neither on handheld nor on a grid02:07
okias.. okey, wrong word... bruteforcing02:07
psycho_oreosSome people think it is, though there are some chinks within WPA, notably WPS and maybe TKIP implementation. Though it is still remotely impossible to crack it with virtually any handheld.02:07
okiaswell, I should just say WEP02:08
psycho_oreosN900 already can break WEP, WEP is old and is getting phased out.02:08
dos1WEP should be crackable in matter of seconds even on Freerunner :)02:08
okiasi knowwww :D02:08
okiasthat's why I said wpa :P02:08
RiDno one uses WEP anymore02:08
DocScrutinizer05anyway completely missing the point02:08
psycho_oreosIf you want to live in the past and think that everyone still uses WEP, then by all means go ahead.02:08
pdanek1They do!02:08
okiasRiD: ....02:08
RiDokias: ....02:09
okiasRiD: you'll be suprised.. thanks god for these sharing people :D02:09
ecc3gI'm using WEP... on my N900 MHS... ouch...02:09
dos1funny unrelated note: "free" in Polish is "wolny", which has also different meaning: slow02:09
psycho_oreosThere are some companies that still uses WEP with their legacy products. Though a security-savvy person would instantly force WPA.02:09
pdanek1yes, just now connected to one WEP wifi in nearby flat02:09
dos1Freerunner is pretty funny name for GTA02 when taking that into account :)02:09
pdanek1WEP is like public wifi :D for some people02:10
psycho_oreosPeople in my neighbour all use WPA, I'd have to get some huge antenna to even pick up a remote WEP AP>02:10
pdanek1so I'm just fortunate :D02:10
okiaspsycho_oreos: rather try sneak in with ethernet cable and enter user admin, pass admin >D02:11
okiasthen read WPA password :D02:11
RiDthat's how I did for my neighbour02:11
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pdanek1Is it immoral to use neighbour's WEP Wi-fi for more than half year? Nice and stable 10mbit, gratis.02:14
pdanek1Maybe I should leave them a chocolate in front of door when I will leave my current rented flat, with a message to change their WEP.02:15
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RiD"wep? what is wep?"02:22
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okiasdivVerent: ping, you tried compile mpv on maemo?02:24
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okiasand dont forget to make neo900 multipath tcp enabled :P02:36
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divVerent01:24:19            okias | divVerent: ping, you tried compile mpv on maemo?07:40
divVerentno, not yet07:40
divVerentdon't expect this to go well anyway07:40
divVerentdid already anyone build sdl2 for maemo?07:40
divVerentthe only maemo supported vo of mpv would be x11 (forget it), xv (I heared Xv extension is there but broken on Maemo) and sdl2 (via GLES2)07:41
divVerenteven IF it should work, it'd eat battery like hell07:41
divVerentto properly run on Maemo, probably this omx thing would need supporting for the HW overlay07:41
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keriopdanek: it's probably immoral08:51
keriobut who cares?08:51
psycho_oreosUnless you happen to be that unfortunate owner whom is footing the bill and any civil liabilities for allowing someone to carry out malicious acts using another person's identity.09:00
psycho_oreosi.e. footing the bill and impersonation.09:00
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pdanekI see.09:08
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* psycho_oreos certainly wouldn't want a 'freeloader' that would do businesses with say for instance terrorists groups and all of the sudden have feds knocking on my door. :p09:17
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kwtmis there a sendmail client or equivalent like msmtp that we can use to directly send email without using the N900's GUI email program?10:38
Palikwtm: compile and use msmtp10:45
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kwtmPali: Ah, so msmtp is available. Will look into it. Unfortunately I will not have time to figure out how to compile before I need it (perhaps another day) so if it does need to be compiled I'll have to look for alternatives. Thx.10:47
kwtmPali: I don't suppose there's some SMTP program that is installed by default that the Nokia app uses?10:47
PaliI think these is only modest mail client10:47
Palinothing more10:47
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int_uaWhy doesn't hildon-desktop have niceness of -5 or less? I've tried -10 and didn't see any drawbacks, only impovements in responsiveness.13:20
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int_uaAlso, while using swap on SD it looks like file transfers doesn't slow down the system as much as with swap on emmc. Does something uses swap to download files before writing them to the actual location?13:27
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int_uaAlthough, nice in /etc/event.d/hildon-desktop doesn't seem to work13:28
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sixwheeledbeastint_ua: this is one of the main benefits to swap on uSD17:17
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DocScrutinizer05(niceness) yes, should be, dunno if or why it isn't.  (swap) indeed that's exactly what kills performance on e.g. large copy operations: buffers in RAM cause swap activity17:20
DocScrutinizer05swappiness=100 doing that to the system17:20
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DocScrutinizer05also mmc-queue-nr or whatever the name of that parameter17:21
DocScrutinizer05having a large number of queue entries inproves performance for many tiny writes since the fs-driver can concatenate them into one write of ideally flashpage size. OTOH many queue entries also mean many buffers in RAM which in turn swaps out all the program text17:23
DocScrutinizer05thus for slightly larger chunk writes a huge number of queue entries is detrimental17:24
DocScrutinizer05which bites your ass on e.g. `cp -r $uSD/* MyDocs/ `17:25
DocScrutinizer05the swap "pressure" crated by the lots of buffers cp will create results in all other tasks constantly swapping out and then in again when they need to run17:27
DocScrutinizer05this constant swapping brings system to a grinding halt that even can result in watchdog booting the system17:27
DocScrutinizer05and, kswapd isn't preempt-able17:28
DocScrutinizer05as soon as kernel - for even a low-prio task - needs to swap in some missing pages, the system is "frozen" inside kswapd and no other task fill run until the swap event got completed17:30
DocScrutinizer05all of the above disclaimer: aiui17:30
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lizardoDocScrutinizer05: are you working on fixing ?20:11
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DocScrutinizer05not exactly, what's to fix with it?20:35
DocScrutinizer05maintainer of that "domain" is thedead144020:37
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kerioThe following NEW packages will be installed:21:16
kerio  libsystemd-daemon021:16
kerioSO IT BEGINS21:16
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kerioi'm sure it's just for some optional daemonization for something21:23
keriobut still21:23
kolpWhich distro is that?21:29
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Paliwhat debian and systemd together?21:47
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Palikerio: do you want that all people here on #maemo will need to see a doctor??21:49
wndPriority: extra21:49
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Palisee above "... has quit" messages...21:49
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kerioapparently it's only depended upon by systemd, python-systemd, libsystemd-daemon-dev, syslog-ng-core, php5-fpm, mpd, transmission-daemon21:50
kerioand meh, it's just a lib21:50
Palisomebody already got headache ^^21:51
wndiirc debian unstable has had sysv, upstart and systemd for some years now21:51
kerioThis package provides the Fast Process Manager interpreter that runs as a daemon and receives Fast/CGI requests.21:51
keriownd: exactly21:51
Paliwhat would be next getty?21:51
kerioit still defaults to sysv though :321:52
wndas it should until all issues are ironed out21:52
Palisystemd is one big issue21:52
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kerioPali: i think it's to offer multiple init scripts21:52
keriobut still :v21:52
Paliwhy debian cannot use openrc?21:53
Palibut must start using that systemd?21:53
Wizzupdebian will use openrc I think21:54
kerioPali: hold your horses21:55
keriothere's support21:55
DocScrutinizer05*I* already got headache21:59
Wizzupand is debian really going to systemd? I hope not22:00
* Wizzup cherishes his gentoo22:00
DocScrutinizer05latest OpenSuse already declares sysV-init "unsupported, please check systemd if you experience any problems during boot" >:-((22:01
Wizzupall sanity is lost22:01
DocScrutinizer05seems like redhat CEO actually wears a red hat22:03
keriodidn't debian switch to upstart for a while?22:03
DocScrutinizer05otherwise they would've fired lennart long ago22:03
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DocScrutinizer05and OpenSuse sheep following that nonsense :-/22:04
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DocScrutinizer05a shame22:05
wnd : "there is no mechanism in Debian to force something like systemd into the distribution, but having -- makes such a large transition possible"22:05
kerio"acknowledge that Debian users are more conservative and expect that upgrades don't break their system"22:07
kerioare you fucking kidding me22:07
kerio"guys, these users actually expect shit to not break horribly"22:07
Palikerio: start supporting kfreebsd port of debian22:08
keriohell no22:09
Palithen systemd cannot be part of debian22:09
Palibecause bsd is incompatible with systemd22:09
dos1don't worry, systemd won't be default in Debian22:13
dos1it's already supported for a long time as an option22:14
PaliI think it will be...22:14
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Paliin every distribution somebody forced systemd22:14
dos1it can't, thanks to Debian GNU/kFreeBSD and Debian GNU/Hurd22:15
Paliand this system shit is everywhere...22:15
Palisome future gnome version want to have system shit dependency22:15
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Paliand if this gnome do, then also other developers of others DE got this stupid idea...22:16
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Paliand some other devs of some other sw start doing similar... because DE already using it22:17
Paliand we will see system shit everywhere22:17
Palilook what happened with PA22:18
Palinow maybe every app has support for PA22:18
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Paliand some will drop alsa support22:18
dos1so? I don't have PA installed on my Debian22:18
dos1everything works well22:18
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Palithen its ok22:21
Palibut I'am afraid of systemd...22:21
DocScrutinizer05[general notice] autobuilder VM paused for maintenance, ETA now+24h22:21
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robotanarchyI also hate systemd >_>22:54
wndecho -e "Package: pulseaudio\nPin: origin ""\Ĺ‹Pin-Priority: -1" | sudo tee /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-pulseaudio  # wtf :-)22:56
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wnderm, s/wtf/ftw/22:56
wndstill, there are already packages that hard-depend on PA :-(22:59
wndeven when the application in question has a configure option to be compiled with alsa22:59
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