IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2013-09-16

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Palifreemangordon: I updated 3.10 n900 kernel tree00:25
PaliI added your patches00:25
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kwtmAnyone using mutt for N900?  How is it?00:28
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nox-oh mutt has been ported?00:33
* nox- usually only ssh's from the n900 and runs mutt on another box...00:34
kwtmnox-: That's a good idea ... didn't think of that.00:36
kwtmBut I do want to be able to download attachments, and then read them offline when the N900 isn't online (I have some pretty crappy reception in some geographical areas where I spend a significant fraction of my daily routine. :(  )00:37
nox-well you could scp them over from the other box too...00:38
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kwtmYeah, I guess that makes the most sense.  That way if my crappy connection breaks, the other box can still download large pieces of email and wait for me to retrieve them.00:39
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pabs3DocScrutinizer05: DocScrutinizer51: I just noticed the SSL cert is expired02:36
DocScrutinizer05dang, really02:37
pabs3according to iceweasel: uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate expired on 25/04/13 01:59. The current time is 16/09/13 01:37.02:37
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DocScrutinizer05hmm yeah, I hope I know what's current time. I just wonder what the heck went wrong with the garage cert, I created new ones for everything else02:45
DocScrutinizer05all new all fresh:
DocScrutinizer05pabs3: thanks, I'll simply forward that to our sysops ;-P02:46
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WizzupDoes 3d acceleration count as ``being usable''02:53
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dos1Wizzup: with Fremantle - yes03:12
dos1no :)03:12
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dos1with SHR, QtMoko, etc - yes03:12
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DocScrutinizer05well, 3D accel counts as luxury ;-P03:26
DocScrutinizer05a system _without_ counts as "usable"03:27
DocScrutinizer05however you're free to use the closed blobs and exploit the benefits of 3D accel, on Neo90003:27
DocScrutinizer05up to you, you got the choice03:27
DocScrutinizer05we can't rpovide what we can't get a hold on03:28
DocScrutinizer05provide even03:29
DocScrutinizer05but you get a hw platform that *works* without any blobs03:29
DocScrutinizer05and you're even free to use blobs that are actually available and it _still_ works :-D03:29
DocScrutinizer05compare situation about mp3 decoders some years back, when distros shipped without them due to Fraunhofer patents, but you were free to either a) use the OS without mp3 support  b) use some pirated mp3 decoders  c) use some licenced mp3 decoders offered for your OS for a small fee to pay the royalties03:34
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DocScrutinizer05would you have called the distor "not usable" due to that?03:36
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DocScrutinizer05distro, dang03:36
DocScrutinizer05Wizzup: since Neo900 is binary compatible to N900, you can use the 3D accel shipping with your Fremantle-Maemo5 you own, and put it on Neo900 and it simply will work03:38
DocScrutinizer05it's neither less nor more free than maemo5 on N900 then, regarding this issue03:39
DocScrutinizer05and since Neo900 is first and foremost designed and planned as N900-successor, I hope you're happy with that03:41
DocScrutinizer05GeneralAntilles: sorry I dunno how to twitter news to MWKN. anyway you might be interested in _new_
DocScrutinizer05comments welcome ;-)03:53
DocScrutinizer05though Dos1 does an incredible job with his website designs (at least in my book), I'm well aware we both are no professional web designers and not even marketing experts or just native speakers03:55
DocScrutinizer05however I think the page now should stand a first public review03:56
RiDits public?03:57
RiDforgive my stupidity, i just saw it -_-03:58
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: the table is new?03:58
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RiDnice site04:00
RiDfancy and my n900 didn't die trying to render it04:00
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, added04:01
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DocScrutinizer05RiD: actually it's probably a tad problematic to see the hover-texts04:08
DocScrutinizer05on N90004:08
RiDhm? don't know, let me check it04:09
DocScrutinizer05well, not problematic but at least not straight forward04:09
DocScrutinizer05one is at "micro-AB (OTG)"04:09
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DocScrutinizer05another one at "...just started"04:10
RiDhm, what do you mean with hover?04:10
RiDonly now i saw the little dots04:11
DocScrutinizer05hover == move mouse cursor over sth04:11
DocScrutinizer05the page is not yet finalized, but a lot better than 8h ago04:12
RiDi put the mouse on top of it but don't see any hover text (??)04:12
DocScrutinizer05the "...and more to come!" promise is meant that way04:13
RiDi am completely lost at what you are trying to say with these hover texts04:14
DocScrutinizer05> >Micro-AB (OTG )with prototyping support in battery compartment for your own ideas<< has hover text "and it won't break ;-)"04:14
RiDi see04:14
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RiDit doesnt show up at all04:14
DocScrutinizer05on N900 you need to use cursor mode, definitely04:15
DocScrutinizer05and even then I dunno if or not it will work04:15
RiDthats what i was using - it doesn't show04:15
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RiDi use it all time, awesome to select text04:15
RiDfaster than android's way04:16
RiDi always choose the wrong line or eventually mess it all up04:16
DocScrutinizer05>>The project has just started.<< has hover text "End of August, 2013"04:16
RiDit doesn't show up04:17
RiDthough I don't think it should rely too much on hover texts, even on computers04:17
DocScrutinizer05we don't ;-)04:18
DocScrutinizer05hover texts are "nice to know" factoids that don't break the story line when missing04:18
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DocScrutinizer05I wonder how many new users will come here to this channel, after clicking on >>your valuable input!<<04:20
RiDit'll be guest madness (not reallyx04:20
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: neo900 is great idea!04:20
RiDanyways i saw your topic related with pulseaudio, xprot and etc04:20
DocScrutinizer05aah, yeah?04:21
RiDis it really messing with the headphones output?04:21
DocScrutinizer05I think in some way it does04:21
RiDyou mentioned dynamic compression and etc. I honestly never noticed tha04:21
RiDbut i dont have any proper setup04:22
DocScrutinizer05for sure volume of headphones is limited to less than the amp could do04:22
RiDi have volumedaemon to squeeze out that little extra, from 88 to 10004:22
DocScrutinizer05the dynamic compression noticeable on speakers04:22
DocScrutinizer05aah, nice. never tested that04:23
RiDit actually makes a difference04:23
RiDbefore that i always had alsamixer -c0 in xterm04:23
RiDbut these were the days I used the original earphones04:23
DocScrutinizer05the hardcore hacker way04:23
RiDand i thought they were loud...jesus04:23
DocScrutinizer05nedko: if you like neo900, consider voting at
RiD(i always have my volume louder than most, was born with some "deafness" problems)04:25
DocScrutinizer05I thought N900 original accessory earphones were just unbearable04:26
DocScrutinizer05both quality and comfort04:26
RiDthey sound very muddy04:26
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: done :)04:27
RiDdo you disagree?04:28
DocScrutinizer05not at all, im my culture nodding means agreement04:28 bad04:28
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nedkoDocScrutinizer05: is there a mailing list for neo900? fora drive me crazy...04:32
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RiDits late... see ya04:38
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DocScrutinizer05nedko: not really, yet04:42
DocScrutinizer05nedko: but I sympathize, we will set up sth in due time04:43
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: i wonder what i can help neo900 with04:45
DocScrutinizer05for now spread the word! :-)04:45
DocScrutinizer05or join the FPTF and contribute there, if that's one of your domains of expertise04:46
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nedkoi'm already spreading the word :)04:47
DocScrutinizer05we urgently need all the help we can get, to port fremantle kernel and core system to Neo90004:48
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mashinai love maemo/n90004:52
mashinabut isn't time to move onto say something like sailfish?04:52
mashinaif we stay in the past we'll never move on04:52
jonwilI will be helping with reverse engineering wherever possible04:53
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: i do C, user and kernel programming, [debian] packaging. but i've not done almost nothing on my n900. i once did a pygtk app for it but i don't think this really counts :]04:54
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: i'm also somewhat used to D-Bus04:54
mashinaalso, kernel port matters much less04:55
mashinayou must need to get userland working04:55
mashinaand userland runs fine with whatever kernel04:56
DocScrutinizer05nedko: great, we need d-bus experts to replace the csd* bits04:56
DocScrutinizer05mashina: sorry that's not correct04:57
mashinai am used to desktopland of course04:57
mashinabut if you provide the same kernel servs..04:57
DocScrutinizer05mashina: we have a whole lot of middleware that is closely entangled with /sys/04:57
jonwilWhat we need is someone skilled in the art of reverse engineering unknown dbus calls (of course such a person may not exist)04:58
DocScrutinizer05d-bus is all fine04:58
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: they need to be rewritten to work with new hardware and to be open source?04:58
DocScrutinizer05d-bus *skills*04:58
DocScrutinizer05jonwil can point you at some wiki page that has details04:59
nedko ?05:00
jonwilYeah thats a good place to start05:00
jonwilReverse engineering unknown dbus calls is hard :P05:00
DocScrutinizer05csd are the low level modem daemons that do SMS, signal, PIN/SIM/whatever...05:00
jonwilyes, the CSD is the daemon that talks to the cellular modem05:01
DocScrutinizer05we can't and don't want to use same modem as on N900 (Nokia BB5)05:01
jonwiland we need to replace it with something that talks to the new modems in the Neo90o (via fsogsmd)05:01
nedkobut we want to use the same dbus clients as in n900?05:01
jonwilyes we do05:01
jonwilWe want to keep things like the phone dialer, messaging app and other stuff working as-is05:02
DocScrutinizer05yes, the d-bus API shall stay compatible05:02
nedkomakes sense to me05:02
DocScrutinizer05\o/ :-D05:02
jonwilThe hard part is figuring out what all the dbus calls actually do05:03
jonwilAnd what the parameters to those calls really mean05:03
nedkodbus has good monitoring capabilities05:03
jonwilyep it does05:03
jonwilbut that doesn't always help us figure out what the unknown calls actually do05:04
nedkobut arent the clients open source?05:04
nedkodbus clients05:04
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nedkoi'd prefer to run as few closed source modules as possible05:05
jonwilyeah so would I05:05
jonwilbut in this case replacing things like the dialer and messaging app is not easy05:06
jonwiland there are far better uses of what programmer time we are able to get05:06
jonwilwriting "a phone dialer" isn't hard05:06
jonwilwriting a phone dialer that is feature and interface compatible with the one on the N900 is whats hard05:06
jonwili.e. the phone dialer does a lot more than it appears on the surface and figuring out all the special cases and funky bits is where the difficultly is05:07
nedkofsogsmd is the module that will talk to the hw05:07
nedkoand it needs to export the nokia dbus api?05:07
jonwilthat's the idea05:07
nedkodo we want to modify fsogsmd or we'd rather implement a different daemon that will act as a proxy to couple the two sets of dbus interfaces?05:08
DocScrutinizer05either that or writing a thin compatibility layer called csd with two d-bus heads, one to fsogsmd and one pretending to be csd05:09
DocScrutinizer05hah, you beat me to it05:09
nedkothis is what i meant with "proxy"05:09
nedkoi like the compatibility layer05:10
* DocScrutinizer05 too05:10
nedkoit will keep nokia stuff out of fsogsmd05:10
nedkoand when/if we write new, they will use the fsogsmd api05:10
nedkos/new/new apps/05:11
infobotnedko meant: and when/if we write new apps, they will use the fsogsmd api05:11
DocScrutinizer05at least if it's something we don't need nor want on original n900-maemo505:11
DocScrutinizer05compatibility (even binary) to N900 is the major goal05:12
jonwilFYI, it is my view that if we have to modify telepathy-ring, rtcom-call-ui or rtcom-messaging-ui at all, we have failed the goals of the project.05:13
nedkoi do some cellular stuff with my n900 and inspect the dbus messages exchanged05:13
nedkos/i do/i can do/05:14
infobotnedko meant: i can do some cellular stuff with my n900 and inspect the dbus messages exchanged05:14
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a proper task you can pick up05:14
DocScrutinizer05document all dbus msgs that go to or from csd05:14
nedkoi'll keep you informed on my progress, but don't hold your breath. i have other things to do :)05:16
DocScrutinizer05please check, and report there as well05:17
DocScrutinizer05the results of your work probably best go to a wiki page05:18
DocScrutinizer05I planned to list all members of the FPTF in post#1, but I failed on keeping track, so you better introduce yourself there and explain the task you picked05:19
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nedkojonwil: the introspection xmls that the csd returns doesnt strictly match the actual protocol. i already found a mismatch05:58
jonwilwhere?05:58 /com/nokia/csd/info
nedkoit returns array of bytes05:59
nedkobut the introspection xml states it returns a string of chars06:00
nedkoi.e. normal string06:00
jonwilok, please document these differences on the wiki somwhere06:00
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nedkoi'm collecting the info in a git repo for now06:01
jonwilAll this stuff needs to be public so that others (like me) can see the info you are collecting :)06:01
nedkojonwil: it will be :)06:02
jonwilok great06:02
nedkojonwil: is it you who collected xml and header files at ?06:02
jonwilyes it is06:02
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jonwilthat is my site06:02
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hatake_kakashiGeez, PCB/SMT rework is not cheap :/ $119 for n9 but the same mob that offers fixing of n9 has no price tag for N900 in regards to replacing/reworking the microUSB receptacle. To me I would say it would be easier to just estimate based on how much it would cost to rework n9's microUSB receptacle and therefore $119 for just one N900 to be repaired. The more you have.. well the more it'll cost. Joy-o06:05
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jonwilnedko: I just ran some dbus-send on and all those methods seem to match up except for that one you found06:10
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nedkojonwil: ok06:14
jonwilMy guess is that that one method was changed but the type signature wasn't changed06:14
jonwilis that the only discrepancy you have found so far?06:15
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nedkojonwil: so far yes06:21
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jonwilactually, I cant confirm what GetHWVersion returns as it returned an error in my test06:30
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jonwilgod I hate ARM reverse engineering06:40
robbiethe1st...Shouldn't any chip come with a proper datasheet which details all of the opcodes and other important bits?06:51
DocScrutinizer05robbiethe1st: hmm?06:55
DocScrutinizer05ought, maybe06:56
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jonwilI have the instruction set reference07:38
jonwilbut its still annoying to figure out just what is going on07:39
jonwilespecially when dealing with data structures, functions and such07:39
jonwiltime to get the cellular services daemon into GDB :)07:41
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jonwilJust updated and the matching data files. Added info on,, and Also corrected the xml file for
jonwilcall.conference info came from dbus introspection09:16
jonwilthe* info was created by me by hand from info in, and from running things through dbus-send and watching the output09:18
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Macerwish maemo had a better fics client10:11
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Macerminiture isnt that good10:11
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WizzupDocScrutinizer05: but that is not without binary blob though11:16
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jierohi, what if a package partly removed and it is actually broken. What can I do to fix it, namely  john - the Lockcode recoveror.14:18
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jieroreinstall is actually not possible14:21
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lexik_ntbjust looking at Replicant page ( and the support for GTA04 is BAD. No WiFi, BT, 3D Graphics... maybe someone (such as DocScrutinizer05) could contact replicant / NITDroid team to ask for help.14:32
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dos1lexik_ntb: not enough manpower14:35
dos1there are no technical limitations that prevent it from happen14:35
dos1AFAIK it was just one developer working on GTA04 support in Replicant14:35
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lexik_ntbdos1: :-/14:48
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Sysaxedcan anybody explain me what is extras-devel-light and why is it with so low priority?15:35
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MrPinguextras-devel-light only contains the latest versions15:37
MrPinguIf i'm right :P15:37
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MrPinguAnd it maybe doesn't have the packages that are already in extras but I am not sure15:38
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SysaxedMrPingu: so if it contains the latest versions, why the hell does it have lower priority?15:47
SysaxedI was wondering why all of my packages are outdated.. Now I see15:47
Sysaxedsmscon sent 30 sms messages, dunno why, my sim was added to the list15:48
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Mike11hello everybody :)16:22
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Mike11I am trying to install git-core on my n90016:22
Mike11apt-get install git-core16:22
Mike11gives me:16:22
Mike11unmet dependencies:16:23
Mike11git-core: depends: git(> 1: but it is not going to be install16:23
Mike11I tried the -f switch16:24
Mike11and the same error happens16:24
thedead1440i would try doing apt-get install git to see what is holding back its installation...16:24
Mike11now when i try: apt-get install git16:24
Mike11git: Depends: perl-modules but it is not installable16:25
Mike11Depends: liberror-perl but it is not going to be installed16:25
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Mike11E: Broken packages16:25
Mike11and when I try: apt-get install perl-modules16:26
Mike11"Package perl-modules is not available, but is referred to by another package"16:27
Mike11"This may mean the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source:16:27
Mike11thedead1440 , can I install perl-modules from there??16:28
RiDcheck your repositories?16:28
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thedead1440Mike11: i don't know; a simple google search showed it and also referenced to an old thread ( which explained that perl-modules may fill up your rootfs space16:29
MrPinguSysaxed: ONLY the latest packages, not all previous versions like the other extras-devel does16:29
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Mike11thanks thedead1440 , I ran into this page too, but couldn't find a link to download the package , thanks for your help anyway16:38
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Mike11RiD , I have the, extras-testing, extras-devel16:39
Mike11RiD, but nokia repositories are not working from my location :(16:40
Mike11RiD, do i need it??16:40
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RiDi don't know :/16:45
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Sysaxedapt preferences: and here is apt-cache policy:
Sysaxedhow can I install the latest version?16:51
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SysaxedMrPingu: you're back, my savior!16:57
SysaxedMrPingu: read it! :)16:59
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marcdeophello everybody17:00
marcdeopfollowing a forum post in maemo.org17:00
marcdeopI'd like to ask for "Fremantle Porting Task Force", is it organized?17:00
marcdeopmay I help somehow?17:00
MrPingu<MrPingu> Sysaxed: ONLY the latest packages, not all previous versions like the other extras-devel does17:01
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MrPinguSysaxed: anymore questions? Did I miss something?17:04
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lexik_ntbmarcdeop: sure you can help, if you can reverse engineering or so.. << good start point17:07
marcdeopreverse engineering? good lorg :S17:07
marcdeopI can bareley pass as a programmer... reverse engineering? I think it's out of my leage :'(17:08
lexik_ntbprogrammer? also welcome :D (i have no idea about RE etc.) which language?17:09
lexik_ntbin my opinion C is the best, just guessing..17:10
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lexik_ntbbest == most useful in this case17:10
marcdeopI was saying I'm not good enough ;-)17:11
marcdeopand my C is really rusty17:11
lexik_ntbin my opinion the biggest challenge for Fre(e)mantle porting taskforce (FPT) are the closed-source packages which have been written especially for N90017:13
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SysaxedMrPingu: yes17:18
Sysaxedwhoo, got disconnected17:18
Sysaxed(16:51:23) Sysaxed: apt preferences: and here is apt-cache policy:
Sysaxed(16:51:28) Sysaxed: how can I install the latest version?17:19
marcdeoplexik_ntb: you are right17:19
SysaxedI can install it manually, yes, but most of my packages are outdated, how can I make it work by default? Why these have 500 priority? Is it the default value?17:20
MrPinguWhat does HAM say? the default app manager?17:21
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MrPinguSysaxed: Personally, I would just use normal repo setup with CSSU-thumb17:34
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SysaxedMrPingu: says that there are no updates17:44
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SysaxedMrPingu: but the point is to have thumb packages with higher priority17:50
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MrPinguI'm running thumb on normal setup, and you only have to wait or priortize when theres a new cssu-t update18:11
SysaxedMrPingu: I don't get it18:12
MrPinguWhat I am saying is that thumb only affects cssu softwares18:13
Sysaxedlike, if somebody throws a new updated package to non-thumb repository, wouldn't it replace my thumb version?18:13
MrPinguThere's no thumb extras repository, is there?18:13
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sixwheeledbeastgrr...busybox cat command has zero advanced functionality18:25
infobotsomebody said messybox was messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils18:25
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mashinai find busybox does what I want to do fine18:30
mashinaas I said, I use busybox-power though18:30
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NIN101well, then the guy who compiled your busybox simply left out those "advanced functionality". it's not messybox's fault.18:35
* Arkenoi does not understand what is the point of using busybox on todays hardware. With 2Mb flash and 2Mb RAM it could make sense, but now it is just stupid.18:36
sixwheeledbeastsorted used sed instead :)18:37
mashinabusybox makes a simpler system18:38
mashinajust one robust tool handles almost everything18:39
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mashinabusybox doesn't bother implementing bloat that gnu adds - it's redundant when you can use a better, different tool for the task18:40
mashinaand the massive gnu bloat counts, even on modern systems18:41
mashinabusybox based systems are lighter to start, use less resources, etc18:41
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Arkenoiwho cares about that "bloat" on nowdays hardware? It made difference when operating frequencies where two-number megaherzes and memory size one or two number megabytes18:51
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mashinawhy not run windows vista on that pentium 3?18:56
mashinaespecially on phones, performance matters18:56
mashina(especially when performance is key for good power usage)18:56
sixwheeledbeastbash installed on N900 causes no performance loss that I know about.18:57
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DocScrutinizer05nah, it rather gets you a performance boost19:00
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keriomashina: busybox is a piece of shit19:08
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mashinano your coreutils19:14
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Sysaxedsixwheeledbeast: why would it cause any effect on performance?19:32
DocScrutinizer05mashina: go ahead tell my about process 1234, using your busybox crappy ps19:32
Sysaxedhey DocScrutinizer05, could you be so kind to help me? :)19:32
DocScrutinizer05sure you can try to find out about everything of that process, using /proc19:32
sixwheeledbeastSysaxed: exactly19:32
Sysaxedapt preferences: and here is apt-cache policy:
Sysaxedhow can I update this (and other) packages? MrPingu suggested removing preferences file...19:33
DocScrutinizer05Sysaxed: help on what?19:33
SysaxedHAM says that no updates are available19:35
SysaxedAnd I was following when configuring apt preferences19:36
sixwheeledbeastShould there be updates in HAM?19:40
DocScrutinizer05 is not any official recommendation. I dunno if and which bugs it may contain19:40
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SysaxedDocScrutinizer05: so should I forget about preferences file?19:45
sixwheeledbeastYes... hmm the "Talk:" version is definitely questionable on stability, this should ideally be in "User:"19:45
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mashinaUser: is for a user's page19:46
mashinayou'll have to put it in User:SomeDude/page19:46
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sixwheeledbeastit is "someusers" idea whereas the Main page was written/edited to be a beginner friendly recommendation way by me.19:48
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DocScrutinizer05btw wtf about TALK[!!!]:N900_The_Perfect_Setup20:01
DocScrutinizer05this definitely is NO talk: page by content20:01
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DocScrutinizer05please clean that up!20:02
DocScrutinizer05on talk: there's supposed to be comments on the main page's content20:03
DocScrutinizer05not a whole alternative phantom wiki mainpage style content20:03
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DocScrutinizer05you can tell from the name of the link to talk: in mainpage's navigation menu: "Discussion"20:05
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DocScrutinizer05cleaned it20:12
DocScrutinizer05new location:
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sixwheeledbeastcompletely agree.20:27
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