IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2013-08-21

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DocScrutinizer05it never even occurred to me that you could press the keys one after the other00:02
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DocScrutinizer05anyway shift is "sticky" sometimes (you can press and release it as prefix qualifier) while afaik ctrl never is00:03
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: rtlsdr is pretty cool, i mentioned that to a few people in here, but possibly not you00:03
DocScrutinizer05brolin_empey: press all three concurrently and you'll never again will have missing screenshots00:04
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Alps: yep, I already wonder if and how to get it onto N90000:05
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: hmm that didn't even occur to me, but it sure would be nice. there are some (not very good) things for Android to use it, but remotely00:06
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DocScrutinizer05seems to me like the ideal addon for a pentest tool00:07
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: for pentesting what? i believe it covers neither wifi nor bluetooth00:08
DocScrutinizer05or rather, general security audit tool00:08
mashinasorry for the dumb question, for I'm just curious: has anyone tried to build a more recent kernel? if not, what's stopping us?00:08
LjL-Alpsid does cover GSM but ssssh don't tell anyone ;(00:09
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DocScrutinizer05pentesting buildings, RFID acess cards, 868MHz - garage door openers, - security cams, whatnot else00:09
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DocScrutinizer05mashina: the closed blobs built against 2.6.2800:10
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: hmm, i guess. i'm content with listening to what the public transport drivers say :P well i'm not, i wish it covered shortwave so i could listen to hams, especially now my scanner broke00:10
mashinahack the planet!00:10
mashinals blobs00:10
mashinalike gsm?00:11
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DocScrutinizer05for example, but even more like XPROT (alsa/PA), GPU drivers, DSP drivers, etc pp00:11
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05, i don't know if the N900 has enough power to deal with the rtlsdr, though...? unless you use it at much less than 3Msps i guess. iirc i can barely decode anything on my EeePC00:11
DocScrutinizer05LjL-Alps: yes, it can't handle the datarate needed for decoding arbitrary signals, but you can set up sample rate for anything down to 900ksps00:12
DocScrutinizer05they told me00:13
DocScrutinizer05which should work00:13
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: 1Msps is certainly possible at least00:13
DocScrutinizer05that's 16Mbps00:13
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't be a problem for N90000:14
DocScrutinizer05at least on USB level, dunno how complex decoding may get00:14
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05, plus the overhead for decoding say at least FM00:14
DocScrutinizer05FM and AM decoding is probably rather simple00:16
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05, i haven't used my rtlsdr in a while, but last time i used it the reference "SDR-style" software (aside from GNURadio for people who knew what they were doing, of course) was SDR# on Windows (which, however, is a licensing mess), and on Linux00:16
DocScrutinizer05gnuradio is fun, particularly the gnu radio companion. I just built me a simple synthesizer (nothing radio at all) ;-D00:19
DocScrutinizer05mucht like arts/ladspa or what it been called, just more evolved00:19
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: that's the main wiki about it yeah, but i figured that'd be the first spot you'd end up on :P also, at least used to have interesting news00:19
nox-there also is and the dab receiver by the same author - www.sdr-j.tk00:20
DocScrutinizer05well, waterfall and rtl_fm works now, with a cheesy logilink stick00:20
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DocScrutinizer05waiting for proper sticks I ordered00:21
DocScrutinizer05Dexatek DK DVB-T Dongle (Logilink VG0002A)00:21 what I'm using00:21
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LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: uh that's a new tuner, i didn't know about it00:23
* LjL-Alps looks for its frequency range00:24
DocScrutinizer05anyway such a stick half the size of my thumb, attached to N900, converting it to a 50MHz..2000MHz universal receiver. Sounds appealing to me00:24
LjL-Alpsah, meh00:24
LjL-Alpsit does sound like you'd benefit from getting a proper one :P00:24
DocScrutinizer05already ordered00:24
DocScrutinizer05I hope so00:24
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: E4000 chip?00:24
nox-i think fc0013 for that one00:25
nox-(the logilink)00:25
LjL-Alpsnox-: which one?00:25
DocScrutinizer05yep, and yep00:25
LjL-Alpswiki says FC258000:26
nox-there also are now r820t00:26
LjL-Alpsnox-: yeah that's interesting since it reaches a it into shortwave00:26
nox-LjL-Alps, maybe theres a new version of that logilink one then00:26
DocScrutinizer05this cheesy one has fc0013, the ordered ones (terratec Tstick) are E400000:26
LjL-Alpsi have an E4000 one, specifically the "original" one that was investigated, it works ok. apparently, another possible advantage with the r820t is that it has no DC spike in the middle for some reason i forget00:28
DocScrutinizer05DC spike?00:29
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/rtl> python2 downloads/   142e6 146e600:31
DocScrutinizer05Found Fitipower FC0013 tuner00:31
nox-that looks a bit like mine00:31
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: err i don't remember the right terms as i'm pretty ignorant about radio :( but, with the E4000 (and afaik, many other SDR setups), if you tune directly on x mhz, then you see noise at and around x mhz, so you have to tune up or tune down from the frequency you actually want00:31
DocScrutinizer05aah, maybe that's why this friggin stuff always tells me the frequency is off a few KHz from what I told it00:32
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/rtl> rtl_fm -f 868.3e600:32
DocScrutinizer05Tuned to 868564000 Hz.00:33
nox-whats at that freq?00:33
DocScrutinizer05remote sensors etc00:33
DocScrutinizer05my home automation00:34
nox-<nox-> -> r820t00:34
LjL-Alpsi have the ezcap eztv66800:34
nox-(was linked from reddit)00:34
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: yes that should be the reason00:34
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: there's probably an option to tell it to use a different offset if you don't like the default one00:34
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: also, the current gqrx screenshot on the site shows no DC spike, so maybe latest gqrx version "corrects" it in software, insomuch as that's possible - at least it'd be nice if scanning didn't stop on the DC spike just because the signal appears to be stronger00:35
DocScrutinizer05I get an annoying line pattern on waterfall00:37
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: this shows the DC spike although in my experience it's hardly just a thin line on the waterfall, it takes up much more space00:37
DocScrutinizer05I don't have such a nice GUI yet00:41
DocScrutinizer05what app is that? windoze?00:41
DocScrutinizer05aaah SDR#00:43
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LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: yes that's SDR#, but gqrx doesn't look much worse (although SDR# certanly has more features)00:43
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DocScrutinizer05 is what I got here so far00:48
mashinaubrelated but i like what kde is doing with plasma00:50
mashinaplasma tv, plasma netbook, etc.00:51
DocScrutinizer05ohyeah, plasma, the thing that either freezes or segfaults on my KDE400:54
DocScrutinizer05and takes half of desktop with it00:54
DocScrutinizer05apropos desktop. Seems that's not modern anymore, sometimes I can't even find it at all00:55
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05, you're too stuck in 2012. join 2013.00:56
mashinai found kde to be stable for me, but i don't use it much00:56
DocScrutinizer05not that I have a look at any desktop too often, way too many fulsize windows opened00:56
mashinabut whenver I used it, I always liked it00:56
mashinahave you looked into tiling WMs?00:56
LjL-Alpsi used to like KDE00:56
LjL-Alps3 ;(00:56
mashinatiling wms might be the change you need00:56
DocScrutinizer05KDE3 was great00:56
DocScrutinizer05KDE4 is :-x00:57
mashinai like both00:58
DocScrutinizer05  see the moon applet? in KDE3 you could adjust your latitude from -90° to +90°, in KDE4 you can select south and north hemisphere. It's just an example of how whole KDE4 is a crippled POS00:59
LjL-Alpswell i probably wouldn't choose that particular example, but01:00
DocScrutinizer05was the first one I could think of01:01
DocScrutinizer05no matter what you pick, i can't find a single topic where KDE4 is an improvement over 301:01
LjL-AlpsDocScrutinizer05: you could probably concentrate better on finding better ones if you weren't distracted by plasma/kwin crashing every 30 seconds and making your desktop flash01:01
DocScrutinizer05and then that "EEEK no *colors* please, we're modern!" theme01:02
DocScrutinizer05noticed same shite on fremantle, tbh01:03
LjL-Alpsif the current fad is "colors everywhere", you can be next one will be "strictly black and white", and vice versa01:04
LjL-Alpsexcept in the process of changing from one to the other, actual features are dropped because people are all focused on the whole saturation business01:05
DocScrutinizer05*sigh* you're so right01:05
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DrCodeis it possible to tell skype/gtalk and other chat to use proxy?07:49
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Macerthere has to be something seriously wrong with microb08:29
Macerthis topping out isnt normal08:29
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ApicA wonderful good Morning (UGT)08:34
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Macerneed to figure out how to make marble useful09:15
Macerwish there was nokia drive for n900 :-/09:16
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Macermaybe i will just try monav09:23
Macerthe tutorial for marble shows a dir that doesnt even exist for audio instructions09:23
Macerugh. the app manager is suxh a pain09:25
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SAiFwhats wrong with microb? whats toping out???09:47
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Macerseems to max cpu all the time10:01
Macereven on simple pages10:01
Macerah well. i am working on modrana now10:01
Maceri need a nav app with voice turns that doesnt completely suck10:01
Macermodrana seems like the best candidate but unfortunately i'm not driving to figure it out heh10:02
Macerand i want to get the ios theme. the default theme is incredibly ugly10:03
Maceri'd love nokia drive on my n900. driving with my e7 is a dream10:03
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Macerguess the ios theme is in devel :-/10:05
SAiFI agree default theme is ugly, but I would like something  cool and lite.10:06
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Macerwell. the theme didnt seem to work anyways10:12
Macernot sure how to use it10:12
Macerfigured i just install it10:13
Macerand use it in the config10:13
Macerbut all i get is default and night10:13
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LauRomanMicroB is not the only app to top out the cpu, it's just the way the Cortex A8 in the 900 works. It's rather old, and not that efficient, or more so gtk, qt and xul are not extremly efficient on it.10:24
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sanovahi, why claws-mail is not present in new repositories? is it too unstable?10:28
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MacerLauRoman: yeah i understand that i just dont remember it being this problematic10:44
Iridostrying to do one of the battery full-charge->discharge cycle from ... just to see how much of the battery is still left after the 1-2 years I use it10:44
Iridosexciting :P10:44
IridosI mean... actually it's not/should not be exciting, but the constant warnings that the battery is empty and the count-down thingy trigger all excitement-reflexes10:45
Macerhow do i use this modrana theme heh10:47
Maceri still only get night and default10:47
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Macerhow do i extract a .deb with dpkg?11:04
Maceri want to see what files this ios theme has11:04
Macerit has to be installing the pkg wrong11:04
Maceroh nm11:05
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IridosMac3, it's an ar archive with a couple of tar.gz's in it. ar -x some.deb11:14
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Iridoshm, didn't know dpkg has an option now to just unpack11:16
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LauRomanis there a way to auto start a python script when i use 3g or wif or when i start a certain app? or should i just run it on startup?11:24
Maceri found it11:25
Maceralthough i dont see what the "theme" does11:25
Macerseems like it is just an icon pack11:25
Maceri need to test modrana out some more11:26
Macerbut from what i can tell trying to pick a pio and drive to it11:26
Maceri keep getting no routing data found errors11:26
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Macerah ok i got it11:30
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Macerseems like i dont have any monav routing data11:31
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Macerguess i have to download all the US data lol11:33
Maceri will work on that later... but i managed to get modrana to give me voice instructions somewhere11:34
Macerthe voice sucks tho heh11:34
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Macerhm. odd.11:39
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jdolesHow much bandwidth do you need to call via Skype or VoIP and is that even practical? I have used local wifi once with Skype and I thought it was terrible, latency wise.12:00
Maceri have an awesome business class cm12:01
Macerwith wireless phones using a base wired up12:01
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Macerand it is still latent12:02
Macerit has to go through prism first i suppose12:02
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DrCodehi all12:11
DrCodeI want to make playlist for player12:11
DrCodecan I make playlist file in my linux and copy it to maemo?12:12
jdolesMacer: Skype via a wired (ethernet) connection does run fast and is even better than a normal landline, because of the greater bandwidth.12:14
ApicGood Question. Might the Mediaplayer be Part of the Closed-Source-Blob?12:14
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DrCodeI think I found somthing12:17
MrPinguThe mediaplayer is closed, thats why we have OMP ;)12:20
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ApicIt has weird Glitches12:22
ApicWhere can I find OMP?12:36
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sixwheeledbeastinfobot: omp is
infobotit has been said that omp is Open Media Player14:22
infobotsixwheeledbeast: okay14:22
sixwheeledbeastdoes anybody use the "My Location" in the "My availability" section of IM for N900? Just wondering what information it broadcasts and where it's shown on other devices.14:24
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Apicsixwheeledbeast: Thanks14:47
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sixwheeledbeastApic: np14:52
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infobotrumour has it, omp is Open Media Player16:24
infobotFactoid search of '' by value (1): omp.16:25
DocScrutinizer05~forget _default omp16:25
infoboti didn't have anything called '_default omp' to forget, DocScrutinizer0516:25
DocScrutinizer05~forget omp16:26
infoboti forgot omp, DocScrutinizer0516:26
infobotomp is probably Open Media Player16:26
DocScrutinizer05~#maemo omp is also
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay16:26
infobotomp is, like, Open Media Player, or
DocScrutinizer05~literal omp16:27
infobot"#maemo omp" is "Open Media Player, or"16:27
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Iridosjust had a look at that and... more like or even ?16:33
Iridosthe starting post seems outdated linking to some kind of horrible /usr/local installer from omp's early times16:34
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DocScrutinizer05Iridos: thanks for checking.16:45
DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, #maemo omp is
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0516:45
Iridoswelcome :)  And of course my motivation was an entirely selfish one, really.16:53
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DocScrutinizer05I'm quite hapy about you pointing me at OMP wiki, it confirmed my notion that there's no sound rationale why OMP ever should replace MP in CSSU, since you can easily install and even use the both concurrently and select which one is default system mediaplayer, by editing one single line in a config file17:18
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ShadowJKis it feature complete with original?17:20
MrPinguWell, IMO cssu should aim to replace closed bits, if and only if the alternative is feature-complete and stable (as stable as nokia version)17:23
DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: alas we have nobody to do decent QA even for urgently needed bugfixes17:23
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DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: so any statement of "is stable" is a hoax17:24
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DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: and I'm strongly deprecating to mess "with a working system" just to get the benefit of "it's FOSS now", since I for one don't care if it's FOSS as long as I don't have a bug or improvement to fix in it17:25
DocScrutinizer05and generally we won't *replace* _anything_, when the planned replacement as well can coexist17:26
DocScrutinizer05offering additional options is fine. Removing anything will happen only when that thing is rogue in any way17:27
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: seems it is17:28
ShadowJKincluding resume of playback and signaling last playback position to other apps? :-)17:28
DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: CSSU is _not_ aiming to forcefeed a supposedly "better" or "nicer" fixed set of applications onto users17:29
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MrPinguI see, but it is to get bug fixes onto users where nokia failed. Or not?17:30
DocScrutinizer05MrPingu: CSSU is about bugfixes if they are dangerous, and everything else shall be strictly optional, IOW offer additional options to users, not deprive them from stuff17:30
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DocScrutinizer05we're not going to do the "new better version: 70% of useless functions finally removed"17:32
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DocScrutinizer05if there's a way to increase the number of options in any way, we will prefer that. If there's a suggestion to reduce number of options for users, we usually will reject since there's nothing wrong with options you got17:34
DocScrutinizer05so _relacing_ (means deleting) MP by OMP won't happen, since they can coexist, giving CSSU users the option to install/keep and even use either one or even both concurrently17:35
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: so _replacing_ (means deleting) MP by OMP won't happen, since they can coexist, giving CSSU users the option to install/keep and even use either one or even both concurrently17:35
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DocScrutinizer05what CSSU might do is to take M(edia)P(layer) out of m(eta)p(ackake) so user can actually uninstall it - sth you can't do so far. Thus increasing options of user, not reducing them17:37
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DocScrutinizer05"dear Amazon user: we just uploaded the new improved version of 'Linux unleashed' e-book to your kindle. It comes with option to underline words and highlight passages, is written in new awesome gothic font, and we removed the useless chapter 13. Alas we had to delete your previous version of this book to recover the space for the new improved version" I *bet* you'd be extremely amused about such message17:44
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DocScrutinizer05Amazon indeed sometimes does this or similar nasty. CSSU never should17:45
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jon_y"dear Amazon user: We removed have noticed your poor taste and replaced your collection with the more popular twilight series"17:46
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DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: nope, seems that's still missing17:47
DocScrutinizer05according to wiki17:47
jon_y"dear Amazon user: We noticed you mayy be reading subversive material and replaced your collection with ebooks approoved by the commision of the patriotic homeland"17:47
DocScrutinizer05the wiki well might be pretty outdated though17:48
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jon_y"Dear Amazon user: We noticed you are reading books native to your own language and replaced your collection with books in our favored language"17:49
jon_yhmm, I must be off my meds17:49
DocScrutinizer05ooh, thanks for reminder17:49
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MrPinguAgreed :P17:52
MrPinguOn the part of removing it from meta-package17:52
Mike11hey people :)17:52
Mike11Help, is it just me? or nokia n900 is unable to play youtube videos anymore from the native browser??17:52
kerioeeh, it always only kinda worked for me17:53
kerioit was always stuttering17:53
keriouse cutetube17:53
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Mike11kerio: cutetube needs libspeex1, I can't find this package do u have it??17:55
kerioso it's not installable? D:17:56
kerioreport a bug to its maintainer17:56
Mike11kerio: I have so many applications that depend on a package that is not available17:56
Mike11kerio: I have added maemo extras, maemo extras testing17:57
Mike11kerio: still these not solved!17:57
Mike11kerio: do u have any idea what to do?17:57
kerioso cutetube is in extras-testing, but it's not installable?17:58
keriodefinetely a bug17:59
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DocScrutinizer05damn shite! N900 display turns all black, with only single random gui elements (like cursor, or time in status area, or random other button) sometimes staying visible17:59
DocScrutinizer05nothing in syslog :-/18:00
keriographics glitch18:00
kerioit happened to me once, too18:00
DocScrutinizer05but on a strange logical level18:00
DocScrutinizer05well, not too strange18:00
DocScrutinizer05it just loses all video content, then renders some few elements anew18:01
DocScrutinizer05reboot time18:01
kerioin my case, it drawed whenever something updated18:01
kerioglad to see that failure modes are at least common18:01
DocScrutinizer05but WHAT THE HELL, when xterm goes black after it refreshed the white background when I hit enter, then the screen goes all black ooh wait a tiny scrollbar comes up(!) instead on very right side of screen, and fades out "slowly" while rest of screen all bleck in a millisecond18:04
DocScrutinizer05meh!! reboot18:05
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DocScrutinizer05which brings me to another pita: since quite some time VoIP doesn't go online when device associates to my home WLAN. When I however disconnect and reconnect to same WLAN a 30s later (or any other arbitrary moment), everything is pretty fine18:12
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DocScrutinizer05coming home -> device roams from GPRS to WLAN -> VoIP says "not connected, network error". Disconnect, reconnect -> VoIP shows green dot18:14
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DocScrutinizer05s/coming home/booting device/ if you like18:14
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders wth is the difference between booting up device and it scans for wlans and connects to my home wlan, and me going to "internet" and disconnecting wlan, device scans for wlans, I tap on my home network and it connects to it18:17
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DocScrutinizer05ummmm... might it send a DHCP-release to my router when I disconnect and then get a new lease when I reconnect? but only a lease-renew on same lease when I reboot and it auto-connects?18:20
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DocScrutinizer05if that's the case, this might cause troubles with still kept-alive NAT sessions that are not known to SIP and only get torn down in NAT when the device actually actively disconnects?18:22
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ShadowJKI'd be surprised if nat gets torn down by a proper disconnect18:26
DocScrutinizer05the nat sessions18:27
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DocScrutinizer05it's actually aninteresting question if the NAT gets to know about clients losing the DHCP lease18:28
ShadowJKIt takes effort to implement, custom modifications to the kernel networking stack, and is not needed18:29
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ShadowJKso my bet is on "no"18:29
DocScrutinizer05hmm, not needed?18:29
ShadowJKthey expire eventually on their own anyways18:29
ShadowJKand get updated/changed if they collide with a new client18:30
DocScrutinizer05if you have port forwards then those wont, and you don't want another device gettings same internal IP (port forwards are always to internal IP, never to MAC or device name) and inheriting the port forwards, or do you...? hmmm18:31
DocScrutinizer05STUN might get confused anyway, aiui18:32
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sixwheeledbeastFYI the factoid did not respond when prompted so I "made" one. It then shows the previous factoid at the time of writing new one. A link is much better than just "Open Media Player" so it was left. No learning required".18:33
DocScrutinizer05I think I got this problem since I got two (instead of one) NAT-routers between me and the internets18:34
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sixwheeledbeastI also agree with MrPingu, It seems some items are replaced and others not. It's not fair that what goes it to CSSU is not clear IMO. Hence the thread I started.
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DocScrutinizer05the nasty thing about most NATs: even if you have a port forward <publicIP>:5060 -> <localIP>:5060, you always get <localIP>:5060 -> <publicIP>:$random-port as a NAT session when local machine connects out to the internet18:37
DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: a) obviously *much* learning required since you didn't even get what I did to fix what you did. ~omp is a channel-specific factoid, you can't redefine it the way you tried18:39
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DocScrutinizer05b) the unfortunate fact that e.g. cmaerau-ui2 got into CSSU unconditionally always been blamed as a huge mistake by me. It never should've happened and it's for sure no good logic to use it as rationale for doing same mistake again and again, to be "fair"18:40
DocScrutinizer05actually purging perfectly working non-hazardous binaries from any users device, to replace them by some alternative unconditionally, just to "be fair" is as unfair as it gets to the user18:42
Mike11kerio: I found the package here and downloaded and installed manually, now cutetube is working, do u know why wasn't it installing normally??!!18:42
sixwheeledbeastcalculator was also replaced it's not just we are talking about nicocam.18:43
DocScrutinizer05CSSU is not the playground for devels, where the one can start to cry since it's not "fair" when his project isn't forced onto all users' devices just like his "opponent's" project was18:44
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: nicocam is fixing severe bug in the stock one. please stop that.18:45
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freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: what bugs are OMP and replacement clock-ui fixing?18:45
DocScrutinizer05CSSU uis about users and providing a maximum user friendly and FOSS spirited clean way for keeping their devices/systems intact18:46
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: where's the bug ticket?18:46
sixwheeledbeastExactly. there are small bugs in all these foss replacement otherwise why spend time replacing them.18:46
freemangordonsixwheeledbeast: besides being FOSS replacements18:46
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: on BMO18:46
freemangordonjust a minute18:46
DocScrutinizer05what are those severe bugs in stock camera that are so hazardous that you can't allow a any unaware user to continue using the stock camera?18:47
DocScrutinizer05does it corrupt data on user's storage? Block 911 phonecalls? Burn out the flash LEDs?18:48
DocScrutinizer05violate copyright? or even introduce malware or open up vulnerabilities?18:48
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DocScrutinizer05forced purge is allowable *only* for dangerous apps or programs18:50
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: recording a pretty much unusable video is sever bug in my book18:50
DocScrutinizer05no, it's a  minor inconvenience and no reason at all why a program must get revoked so nobody can use it anymore18:51
freemangordonbeing unable to record video is a minor inconvenience? omg, I am out18:52
DocScrutinizer05you say you got the right to force me to not further use stock camera since *you* say it's buggy?18:53
freemangordonbug 706218:53
povbot_Bug Video camera does not record smoothly18:53
DocScrutinizer05I really don't get what#s wrong with you18:53
freemangordonthis is the bug in question18:54
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DocScrutinizer05mhm, is it a showstopper? something that has *any* impact beyond the bug itself?18:54
DocScrutinizer05if not then it's no justification to purge the app from all existing devices, no matter if you provide an alternative or not18:55
DocScrutinizer05let me put it this way: when we want to force replacement (instead of option to pick one or the other) of any app, then we need a reason good enough to even remove the original app when we wouldn't be able to provide a replacement.18:56
freemangordonI guess 44 votes for that bug are giving CSSU team good enough reason18:58
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DocScrutinizer05if we can tolerate users to continue use stock app until we can provide the replacement, then it's up to user to decide if he wants to accept our alternative once we provide it or if they rather want to keep the original18:58
freemangordonand honestly, I won't argue with you about nokicam anymore18:58
DocScrutinizer05not 1 million votes for any bug give a reason to purge the app18:59
freemangordonboth of us are just wasting time18:59
DocScrutinizer05the only valid reason to purge an app is a hazardous bug or malware or vulnerabilty/securtity-threat19:00
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DocScrutinizer05listen buddy, I paid for stock camera app. Who do you think you are to delete it from my device and replace it by sth you think is beter for me, without even asking me?19:01
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DocScrutinizer05you as well could delete it from my device without replacing it, it wouldn't be any worse and i'd be exactly as angry on you19:02
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DocScrutinizer05if you don't have a damn good reason not to ask me if I'm content with your replacing action (like "device will explode at random, when using this app. So we deleted it on all devices we could reach"), I think you're a rogue guy19:04
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DocScrutinizer05I honestly don't get it what makes you think your approach to purge apps at random was any sane19:06
DocScrutinizer05at least as long as we got an easy alternative: allowing user to choose19:07
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DocScrutinizer05absolutely no arguing about how many votes on any bug can make a valid exuse not to give user freedom of choice when we could easily (or even not so easily) do it.19:09
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DocScrutinizer05and before you start again with your argumentation chain about workload on devels was too high when we give user the freedom of choice: when devels can't handle this simple problem that's actually handlable in max one hour of additional work, then they better stay away from maemo completely, rather than ruining a good system with halfarsed "fixes"19:12
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DocScrutinizer05for e.g. OMP there's 0, I repeat: *ZERO* sound rationale why it ever should purge stock mediaplayer in an unconditional way that user can't opt-in or opt-out19:14
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DocScrutinizer05for camera-ui2 there been exactly as litte rationale why user can't have the choice to pick the camera app he prefers19:19
DocScrutinizer05nothing wrong with replacing all you seem fit with alternative improved CSSU versions, as long as user at least can opt-out and reinstall the original. But to forcefully purge sth from user's system just because we have an alternative we think is better, that's outright bold and an offense to FOSS spirit19:23
DocScrutinizer05how about watsapp nuking SMS functionality for example? Don't we think it#s way better since it doesn't cost use money and it's FOSS unlike the SMS lib in ISI stack?19:26
DocScrutinizer05where do we stop forcing our idea onto user?19:26
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: and there lies the problem with our communication - you talk about FOSS spirit, I talk about software product which I(and the others) support. The fact that this SW product is FOSS (in most of its parts) doesn't change the fact that most of the users don't give a shit about maemo being FOSS or not. As long as it works.19:27
freemangordonjust look at yaparri thread and see what kind of users own n90019:27
freemangordonyappari even19:27
DocScrutinizer05maemo is no product.19:27
freemangordonoh, it is19:28
DocScrutinizer05no, and even board had to learn this19:28
freemangordonit is what nokia sold you installed on n90019:28
DocScrutinizer05it's a project, no product19:28
freemangordonI am speaking in terms of CSSU19:28
DocScrutinizer05and even when it was a product, it's not up to CSSU to manage it19:28
freemangordonnot in general19:29
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: ooh, so all the extras stuff is not maemo?19:29
freemangordonfrom CSSU POV maemo is SW product19:29
DocScrutinizer05yeah, in *your* oppinion, that is flase. sorry19:30
freemangordonI could be wrong, but how is that I feel it. And that is how I try to behave19:30
freemangordon*that is how19:30
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DocScrutinizer05I bought N900 (and even N810) because it is _not_ a product that some obscure dude or company decides everything for me19:31
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: but you're not the only n900 user CSSU should take care of.19:31
DocScrutinizer05and I think most of maemo users did because of that19:32
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freemangordonI don't think so, again, look at yappari thread19:32
DocScrutinizer05and even if there are some users who think they want someone to do decisions for them, it's not legit to force same decisions to all the other users19:32
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: lets agree to disagree and leave merlin1991 to make the decisions about CSSU :)19:33
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DocScrutinizer05by same rationale you could force all supermarkets to remove everything but snickers from their assortment, since most users buy snickers anyway19:34
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: merlin1991 DID that decission, 18 months ago19:34
DocScrutinizer05it's you and another few guys who ignore that and argue against the consequences from that decision ever since19:35
freemangordonwell, me another few guys is all of CSSU team19:35
DocScrutinizer05oh, so suddenly merlin1991 isn't cssu team anymore, and he's not supposed to do resp enforce that decision?19:36
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: don't twist my words please19:36
DocScrutinizer05you're twisting19:37
freemangordonmerlin1991 is the maintainer and afaik there is nothing in CSSU done without his approval19:37
freemangordonhowever, I have to run19:38
* freemangordon is afk19:38
DocScrutinizer05we decided to make all apps (optional-)alternative that have any chance to get handled that way. This decision been taken 18months(?) ago in a public meeting19:38
DocScrutinizer05there's simply nothing to argue about anymore, anless you again start with threatening to no further contribute to CSSU when we don't *force* alternatives onto users without giving them a choice like every linux user has in every other sane distro19:40
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DocScrutinizer05I explained in epic painstaking length why the whole problem is in metapackage and that it's up to devels to ship their projects with a proper install file that has all the dependencies they need (like is mandatory on *every* other distro that doesn't have this insane metapackage). Merlin will care about the rest which is: "remove package from mp" and maybe even "add one apt commandline to a shellscript that at some point during CSSU19:43
DocScrutinizer05update get executed"19:43
DocScrutinizer05as soon as a package isn't entangled to mp anymore, user is free to uninstall it via apt and install the original stock package instead. I don't see _any_ reason why we mustn't do that. I.E. why we should deprive user from his opportunity to use apt to uninstall and install packages to all her/his liking, not limited by any insane metapackage that defines what has to be there and what can't get in due to conflicts with the stuff that has19:49
DocScrutinizer05to be there.19:49
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DocScrutinizer05all this has been discussed during weeks in that period 18 months ago, and finally merlin1991 and me elaborated on how to handle this problem in CSSU for the future. None of you had any objections, so it been agreed upon. Ever since you try to roll back that decision which kinda makes me angry19:53
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* DocScrutinizer05 notices a quite strange change in general mentality and basic values during last few years. People more and more asking that some authority outlaws or otherwise erradicates all alternative ways or thoughts or preferences that those people consider aren't the true and right ones. Smoking. Alcohol. Recently even meat meals in dining facilities - they are not asking for vegan meals, they demand not offering meat meals. What the heck 20:14
DocScrutinizer05is this odd mindset?20:14
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LithdkYo so I finally got my sim card for my data plan. Bit of a question though, how do I set it up for 3g, internet, whatever. I am connected and can go on to sites, but is that the connection that's included in my data plan. There's a connection requiring no passwd in the list called "Telmore Internet"21:00
LithdkUsing this connection draws on my dataplan right?21:00
LithdkAlrighty, thanks21:02
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HtheBMohammadAG: Sup22:33
HtheBlong time no speak22:33
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Cor-Ai Long time no siege!22:38
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WizardNumberNextcould I have an option to flash root without modem (cmt?) again? Is it --flash-only ?23:20
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DocScrutinizer05--flash-only rootfs23:29
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WizardNumberNextchears I think it works. I worked it out, but wanted to have confirmation23:37
WizardNumberNextjust did full flash23:37
WizardNumberNextwith emmc23:37
WizardNumberNextnow I need backupmenu and kp23:37
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DocScrutinizer05first of all check /opt23:41
WizardNumberNextthen I can simply get to backup anytime23:41
DocScrutinizer05since usually you *must* flash rootfs _after_ eMMC23:41
WizardNumberNextactually I did flash root, emmc, root23:42
DocScrutinizer05to make it re-optify aka populate-the-/opt23:42
DocScrutinizer05ooh, fine :-.)23:42
WizardNumberNextit lost few things so I flashed rootfs again23:42
DocScrutinizer05that's the foolproof way23:42
WizardNumberNextso that is the reason for emmc, rootfs not otherwise23:42
WizardNumberNextanyway n900 is pretty much foolproof device - you can flash it anytime and it works23:43
DocScrutinizer05yes, basically that's correct23:43
WizardNumberNextI love it - I bricked it something like 3-4 times already - no problem to unbrick it23:43
DocScrutinizer05rhere's one way to permanently mess up stuff, but you hardly ever run into it, and even less likely by accident23:44
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WizardNumberNextoh can I ask hot put lines from sources.list?23:44
WizardNumberNextinto ham23:44
DocScrutinizer05last one who had that problem got the nickname NAND-tester by this channel's users23:44
WizardNumberNextas I have backup of /etc and others on laptop I would like to write it down to n900 on ham23:45
WizardNumberNextI have backup of etc, so sources.list is there as well. I want to add catalogues to ham from it23:46
WizardNumberNextneed to learn it anyway23:46
DocScrutinizer05errr, only valid automated methos to add catalogs to ham is via .install files23:47
WizardNumberNextno, I mean manual way23:47
DocScrutinizer05open HAM, go to menu "catalogs"23:47
DocScrutinizer05click "add catalog"23:47
WizardNumberNextjust need to know how to enter repos from sources.list into ham fields23:48
DocScrutinizer05  -- other repos likewise23:49
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