IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2013-05-14

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kerioi really hope this version of the bme replacement doesn't have the forced shutdown on SEDV1, or i won't be able to calibrate it :s00:34
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Raimu-XWhere can I download the bme-rep now?00:46
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infobotbme-replacement is probably  See also: . Please, use wiki page to report bugs/problems and/or solutions to them!00:51
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DocScrutinizer05request for community feedback: we plan to switch VM filesystem (ext3) to support ACL(5) - are there any known issues, tips, bugs, flaws, whatever, around ACL and ext3 and ubuntu12.04?03:18
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rikaneeDocScrutinizer05: tried doing it for a shared file repository involving a thin client setup, and it works just fine, the ACL handling code is fairly mature.03:23
rikaneeAlthough, I'd advise migrating to ext4 as ext3 isn't particularly friendly to unclean unmounts.03:24
cehtehfor what do you need ACL's .. imo they only make things more complicated, backup tools need to support them and a lot other issues can show up03:29
cehtehconsider if just adding a few more unix groups would work as well03:30
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DocScrutinizer05adding a few more unix groups would require that we have full comprehensive knowledge about any tools that use the current file group of file xy, and if there's any such tool that depends on a particular group on file xy, we obviously can't assign a new group to xy03:46
DocScrutinizer05above rationale applies particularly for all those root:root files the we want to allow access by maintainer of that subsystem the file belongs to03:47
DocScrutinizer05our backup tools also need to support mysql dumps prior to doing a (incremental live) backup03:48
DocScrutinizer05they will learn to handle getfacl -R as well03:49
DocScrutinizer05and setfacl <acl-backup.txt, for restore03:49
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DocScrutinizer05sure ACL make stuff "more complicated", since they are a copy of the more complicated situation and requirements we need to get handled03:51
DocScrutinizer05however I am quite interested to hear about those other issues in detail03:51
cehtehyes, admin headache .. if you want to go that way have fun03:51
DocScrutinizer05hey, what's the added headache, when ACL are stricly supplementary to what we have currently?03:52
cehtehalso from security standpoint ... evey executable and script and the dirs thereof need to be mangaged/supervised not that someone has an ACL allowing to modify stuff which is not oblivious by looking at standard unix permission03:53
DocScrutinizer05we have headache since we need to give maintainers root permissions just to allow them reading a few logfiles or whatever. ACL will rather be the cure for that headache03:53
cehtehi admit in few cases ACL's make sense, but I'd first consider everything else :)03:53
cehtehfor admins it adds complexity, for users it adds confusion03:54
DocScrutinizer05we have no users03:55
DocScrutinizer05and yes, it adds complexity, but that's the complexity of the situation03:55
DocScrutinizer05a more simple solution is: everybody is in group sudo03:56
DocScrutinizer05and THAT gives _me_ real headache03:56
DocScrutinizer05or you could try to handle all that stuff with sophisticated sudoers rules03:57
cehtehi dont know your exact setup but would be adding groups and few setgid dirs do already?03:57
DocScrutinizer05which for sure is more complex than ACL03:57
DocScrutinizer05see above03:57
DocScrutinizer05we have lots of existing files with more or less "fixed" grups03:58
cehtehyes ..  well i agree with your sudo thoughts, i have no sudo on servers03:58
DocScrutinizer05root:root, root:www-data, ...03:59
cehtehif you think you can handle the acl's and you know all your tools/use-cases (backup, chrootkit, logging, whatever) will work with ACL's go ahead03:59
DocScrutinizer05we can't chown :myleetenewgroup thefiles, without breaking stuff03:59
cehtehif so, thats pita04:00
cehtehcant you fix this one by one?04:00
DocScrutinizer05we plan to fix other things04:01
DocScrutinizer05which is why we need those access permissions for maintainers04:01
DocScrutinizer05and there's a thing called ACL that seems to do what we need04:02
cehtehhave fun then, it was just my opinion that ACL's are in most case not worth the trouble04:02
DocScrutinizer05well, we use them for maintenance only, not for productive stuff04:02
cehtehwhen you find out that backups cant be restored correctly, or things slip under the radar, ...04:02
cehtehrsync supports acl's since some time but i remmeber there where bugs handling them for example04:03
DocScrutinizer05well, then we are back to where we are right now04:03
DocScrutinizer05if whole ACL stuff goes poof, we are no worse than today04:04
DocScrutinizer05and we have all the time in the world to figure why it went haywire and fix it, since... it's only for granting maintainers access to root stuff selectively04:05
cehtehi mean unix permissions are certainly not that great either, they are very very simplicistic04:05
cehtehbut that makes them easily understand and manageable on the other hand, which is a huge win when you think about security, you certainly trade some flexibility for that04:06
DocScrutinizer05not really04:07
DocScrutinizer05since the alternative is granting root permissions04:07
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cehtehyeah thats not an alternative04:07
cehtehthe only alternative would be umask and setgid dirs .. if that doesnt work for you use ACL's04:08
DocScrutinizer05thanks for the chat04:08
cehtehmaybe in the long run you can fix thing at least in most places to work with setgid dirs and remove the ACL's one by one04:09
cehtehand linux acls are at least more sane than the acl's in windows :)04:10
cehtehmore regular04:10
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Macerok wth07:28
Macerthis is the strangest thing07:28
Maceri can bluetooth tether07:28
Macerbut the n900 won't connect to tmobile :-/07:28
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Macerwtf. this is like the weirdest thing ever07:51
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narcosHi all. I have two N900s - I'd previously set them both up to run a script on boot, but had disabled one some months back. I can't seem to get the startup script to run now. I have a file in /etc/event.d/ - is this the correct approach?11:38
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narcosMeh, "endscript" should be "end script"11:41
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* DocScrutinizer05 wonders if somebody could provide long term graphs of the number of users in this channel - might be interesting. Particularly when also netsplits are marked (though probably you can tell those easily by sudden drops od number-of-users)14:46
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* MohammadAG wonders how to add a \t to the start of every new line14:56
MohammadAGsed 's/^/\t/g'14:58
PaliDocScrutinizer05: maemo midgard package interface bug: package callnotify from extras-devel was promoted to extras-testing, but still missing in extras-testing (since 2013-04-06 11:23)
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I guess all promoting is broken15:01
Palisame for package:
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: you can save the /g, since ^ only occurs once per line15:02
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: so /g does nothing except slow down execution by at least factor 2 (for the core process loop)15:03
MohammadAGsed 's/^/\t/g'15:04
MohammadAGthanks DocScrutinizer05 :D15:04
MohammadAGnow I'm stuck at doing functions with parameters15:04
MohammadAGseems like a normal $n should do it15:04
DocScrutinizer05in sed?15:05
MohammadAGno, bash15:05
PaliDocScrutinizer05: same for package:
Paliwhen will be promoting working again?15:06
PaliDocScrutinizer05: maybe bug in midgard, look at log of this package:
Paliwhy is this log very big?15:08
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DocScrutinizer05damn netsplits and server outages15:09
PaliDocScrutinizer05: what happened 2013-05-11 03:26 UTC with package interface?15:09
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DocScrutinizer05[2013-05-14 14:05:25] <MohammadAG> no, bash15:09
DocScrutinizer05[2013-05-14 14:06:14] <DocScrutinizer05> well, where's the problem? think of every function as a separate script(-file)15:09
DocScrutinizer05[2013-05-14 14:07:02] <DocScrutinizer05> and invocation of the function as a normal cmdline invocation of a script15:09
DocScrutinizer05[2013-05-14 14:07:22] <DocScrutinizer05> that's just vfine for a first approach to how it works15:09
Paliit imported kernel-power-bootimg v52 to extras-devel, see:
DocScrutinizer05Pali: how am I supposed to know?15:10
Palidid not you restarted or did somehing?15:10
DocScrutinizer05I personally did nothing15:10
DocScrutinizer05and I don't know of anybody else doing sth15:11
DocScrutinizer05ask merlin199115:11
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Palimerlin1991: ping15:11
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DocScrutinizer05we had fun with wiki/bugs VM last week15:12
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DocScrutinizer05I'm not aware of anybody tweaking stuff in midgard or autobuilder or repo15:13
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ludensso.. i'm reading at : "Nokia binaries are provided via an APT repository and it is necessary to accept the Maemo 5.0 (Fremantle) SDK End User License Agreement. There is a token at the end of the agreement page and you need to type it in order to be redirected to a page with your repository line."15:57
ludensclicking that link ( ) only takes me to an error page. does anyone know how i can obtain the token mentioned+15:57
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ludensPali: \o/ thank you!15:59
Paliludens: is now on
ludensi see16:00
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DocScrutinizer05and Pali fixed that very token thing :-)16:16
DocScrutinizer05I added a wiki page, so you *could* find the same instructions there16:24
ludenshey i dont need to run X11 in order for the system to work, right?16:27
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ludensi mean i just want to build a program and make a .deb for it16:28
merlin1991that goes without X1116:28
merlin1991Pali: pong16:28
merlin1991and Pali I didn't touch anything16:29
ludensyeah thought so, great16:29
DocScrutinizer05ludens: you mean the xephyr (or what's the name) X11 server? That's only needed for the (pretty cool) emulation16:30
DocScrutinizer05for building you don't need it, afaik16:30
DocScrutinizer05I.E. you can build and then test on _real_ device instead of test in xephyr-emu16:31
ludensyeah i was hoping that's only needed for testing gui behavior16:32
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ludensthis is awesome16:36
DocScrutinizer05well, actually any behaviour on a maemo system, since such system won't come up in an emu that's missing the hildon-desktop16:37
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DocScrutinizer05in simple words: your maemo emu will not start when xephyr is missing, so you can't even test daemons or other UI-less programs16:38
DocScrutinizer05but you can test all you like, on a _real_ device16:38
rikaneespeaking of the Maemo emu, has anyone figured out how to start Hildon on the x86 SB?16:39
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ludenswow creating .debs is... a nightmare17:08
merlin1991how come?17:09
ludensbecause i knew nothing about how it works :D17:12
ludensjust reading up17:12
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merlin1991it's a complicated process :D17:14
merlin1991especially since there are various ways todo it17:15
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ludensi found a git tree for debian now that seems to be better prepared for it17:17
merlin1991out of curiosity, what are you trying to build?17:17
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* DocScrutinizer05 wonders if to pester nokia to change the DNS to a CNAME to point to r.m.o/tabletsdev/17:23
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ludensi want to install aptitude in scratchbox...17:32
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ludensso i want to build this package in FREMANTLE_ARMEL but my debhelper and python are too old. what can i do?17:42
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ludensthere doesnt seem to be newer versions available from repository.maemo.org17:42
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ludensis the working host to use for all repositories now?18:03
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DocScrutinizer05well, basically yes18:22
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ludensso... i need debhelper >= 8.00 to build this package but the maemo version is 5.something18:31
ludensany advice?18:31
DocScrutinizer05ask the hardcode-devels18:31
Paliin extras-devel is debhelper 718:31
DocScrutinizer05like Pali, freemangordon, merlin199118:32
ludensPali: i installed that18:32
Palilook at wiki there is info how to use debhelper7 is scratchbox18:32
Paliis it really tricky due to scratchbox redirect18:32
ludenscould i change the requirements?18:32
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PaliI think that there was not big change between debhelper 7 and 8 so you can replace 8 with 7 in your package18:33
Paliand it could work18:33
ludensbut this package will still require 8.0.018:33
ludensah ok18:33
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ludenswhat about python 2.618:33
ludensdpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: debhelper (>= 8.0.0) python (>= 2.6)18:33
ludensi installed python2.718:33
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ludensbut it doesnt look for that ofc18:33
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Pali~#maemo debhelper7 is
ludenscould i replace python with python2.7?18:34
infobotPali: okay18:34
PaliI do not know nothing about python...18:34
Palirather ask someone else about python packaging18:35
ludensok thx18:35
ludenshm it only recommends python 2.618:37
ludensdoesnt depend on it18:37
ludensthen why won't it build18:37
ludensno sorry build-depends includes it18:38
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ludensdebhelper7 doesnt seem to cut it18:54
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sixwheeledbeast<<17:23 DocScrutinizer05 wonders if to pester nokia to change the DNS to a CNAME to point to r.m.o/tabletsdev/>> oh we have a rmo tablets-dev now. cool :)19:38
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sixwheeledbeastdisgraceful. bloody dyndns have made it even harder to keep your free account. You now have to login to the account via a browser every month to stop it expiring.21:18
* sixwheeledbeast now wonders if he can automate this with a wget script...21:24
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: :-/ And I bet they will implement some nasty capcha once more than a few dozen users go the wget path22:02
DocScrutinizer05but hey, that's the way it goes. Nothing is for free22:02
sixwheeledbeastmmm, I am thinking javascript login or something. trying to bash something together now.22:03
DocScrutinizer05you always pay, with your attention, your clicks, your stupidity to accept pro-plans, whatever22:03
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sixwheeledbeastIt's the only DDNS service my router supports.22:04
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DocScrutinizer05all the skype and google+ and facebook and wazapp victims never will learn, but you always pay, sooner or later22:04
sixwheeledbeastIt was a good service. shame they've pulled free and are making it harder for free long term users.22:05
DocScrutinizer05I wonder when I'll get first bitching mail from them22:05
sixwheeledbeastthey advertise on my webhop so why make it hard for me?22:05
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DocScrutinizer05I probably should set up my own "dyndns" service. I got enough fixed IP services22:06
DocScrutinizer05can't be too hard to set up some service for that on my hetzner server22:07
sixwheeledbeastthat would be nice if my router could have anything other than Dyn.22:08
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I know those friggin routers22:08
sixwheeledbeastI haven't gone down the open firmware route yet but may have to if it will help.22:09
DocScrutinizer05never heard of22:09
sixwheeledbeastlinksys WAG200 (cisco)22:10
DocScrutinizer05the linksys firmware been not all bad, but in the long run unbearable22:11
DocScrutinizer05moved to openWRT22:11
DocScrutinizer05err DD-WRT22:11
sixwheeledbeastopenwag200 is an option but never needed so haven't bothered.22:12
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DocScrutinizer05sixwheeledbeast: how will dynDNS inform you about that new shit? Or will they at all?22:23
DocScrutinizer05and since when is this in effect?22:24
sixwheeledbeast DocScrutinizer05: I just had a e-mail today, looking on the dyn forums they've been rolling it out this month.22:24
DocScrutinizer05once you hacked sth, share it please!22:25
sixwheeledbeastAlso I can't find the option to e-mail on 5 days before expiration22:25
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sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: I need to work out how to get wget to fill in this page.
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zeq1sixwheeledbeast: you'll need to grab the captcha and try to OCR it, obviously it's designed to defeat that. So good luck...22:34
sixwheeledbeastthere's no captcha at present for existing users login22:35
sixwheeledbeastDocScrutinizer05: zeq1: It my not be possible there is some javascript that seems to change the login field name (form_id) on each visit. However I am no expert. very basic html skills only here :(22:42
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merlin1991sixwheeledbeast: the login field is something like login%i_username23:03
merlin1991it changes each reload23:03
merlin1991though without javascript23:04
sixwheeledbeastyeah a random number. looking at loading cookies somehow.23:04
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merlin1991sixwheeledbeast: cookies and posts are easier with curl imho23:14
sixwheeledbeastok ta23:15
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