IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2013-01-26

kerioPali: the problem is that the design reported for my battery is 1200mAh00:00
Estel_well, as ShadowJK said, even laptops use last measured capacityp now design one00:00
ShadowJKfreemangordon; Nokia battery management is plagued by legacy. I suspect N9 and lumia are only sane devices. N900 is a hybrid :)00:00
keriowhen it's ~1400 in reality00:00
infobotEstel_ meant: well, as ShadowJK said, even laptops use last measured capacityp not design one00:00
Estel_when not calibrated00:00
Palikerio, negative and hight value as 100 should not be reported00:00
freemangordonShadowJK: sure BME in n900 is crap. But we have the chance to fix that00:01
Estel_well, my battery is 3000 mAh and reported as 1300, does it count? :P00:01
ShadowJKfreemangordon; well it's not just sw, it's hw too00:01
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Estel_ok, so don't fix it by enforcing other crap on users, even for few cycles. Use default for dummies, and allow others to overwrite priorities, even by hidden config file or sysfsentrey or whatever00:02
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Estel_hello sixwheeledbeast :)00:02
FIQI'm still very curious how my situation is handled by bme00:02
FIQas I have two different batteries and charge both externally00:02
freemangordonguys, imagine, you enter a shop and bye a battery. you put it in the device. what capacity you'd expect to be reported?00:03
FIQ(both are genuine nokia batteries)00:03
Estel_freemangordon,  so i said, let it be as you proposed for dummies00:03
sixwheeledbeastEstel_: Hi you will have to excuse me (poor inet connection due to snow)00:03
Estel_then, allow others to overwrite priority settings for applet00:03
Estel_instead of hardcoding it00:03
keriofreemangordon: who said that it should report a capacity? :)00:03
freemangordonEstel_: ask pali for that :P00:03
Paliwe need %00:04
Paliand percentage is caluclated as current/design00:04
freemangordonkerio: because it is better to know if you've been sold an 800 mAh battery with changed sticker00:04
kerioPali: % comes from bq27k, and is as accurate as you can get, considering that the design capacity is FUBAR00:04
FIQMy experience is that my charge very rarely show "full", though that can be my external charger's problem00:04
Estel_I just want to be able to set it to use bq always, and ignore rx51. SET IT, not demanding it being like that by default00:04
FIQthough I don't think so00:04
keriofreemangordon: you can't know that until you do a cycle or two00:04
kerioFIQ: update to the very latest kp5200:04
kerio(january 2013)00:04
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freemangordonkerio: you can if only the sticker is changed00:04
kerioEstel_: +100:04
FIQkerio: hmmmmmm why?00:04
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keriofreemangordon: this battery reports 1200, but it's 1400 in reality00:05
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kerioFIQ: the charge termination sense is set at 100 instead of 150, maybe it's that00:05
Estel_if we're getting rid of damn bme, lets not do enforcing hardcoded things again00:05
freemangordonkerio: so? did you think it is genuine nokia 1430 mAh?00:05
Estel_safe default for dummies that doesn't want to see 2048 after chip reset...00:05
Estel_and configurability, even if by text file or whatever, for others00:05
freemangordonkerio: I guess no00:06
FIQkerio: charge termination.. as in the time for when the charging is stopped?00:06
kerioFIQ: yeah00:06
FIQi.e. when it's considered "full"00:06
Estel_freemangordon,  we're using non-genuine code00:06
FIQuhh but how is that relevant00:06
Estel_instead of genuine bme :P00:06
FIQI use an external charger00:06
Estel_so who said we need to use genuine hw battery?00:06
kerioFIQ: i have no idea, it might be a hald-addon-bme discrepancy between stock and replacement00:06
FIQ<FIQ> My experience is that my charge very rarely show "full", though that can be my external charger's problem00:06
FIQ"external charger"00:06
freemangordonEstel_: I am not against configuratio ;)00:06
Palinow hald-addon-bme doing this: when battery is not calibrated it calculate bars (0-8) from battery voltage from hardcoded values00:07
FIQanyway, I guess I can update to kp52 anyway00:07
Estel_good to hear ;)00:07
FIQThere's just one problem...00:07
kerioFIQ: mind you, "full" is a lie, except for like the very minute the charge ends00:07
FIQextras-devel is done00:07
kerioonce the charge ends, the battery starts to discharge00:07
Paliand I think this can be ok00:07
kerioFIQ: hold on, is your issue with the replacement bme?00:07
Estel_your idea for default behavior - rx51 when not calibrated, then bq27x00 when calibrated - is sane00:07
FIQkerio: yeah00:07
freemangordonPali: no other option aiui00:07
FIQkerio: Uh I think I use the stock one00:07
Estel_just let us overwrite it with whatever priorities we feel fancy ;)00:07
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FIQ"yeah" was @ once the charge ends, the battery starts to discharge00:07
kerioFIQ: then "full" is even less of a reality for you00:08
Estel_Pali,  it looks good00:08
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freemangordonEstel_: toldya, ask Pali for that :)00:08
FIQI see00:08
kerioit takes power to boot the n900 :)00:08
Paliyes, so "current" mAh is calulated from "bars"00:08
Paliin non caibrated state00:08
kerioand bme doesn't really know wtf to do with a newly-inserted battery00:08
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freemangordonkerio: neither is bq :)00:08
FIQOh well, just wondering what it tries to report00:08
Estel_Pali,  good idea, but why make yourself trouble by coding that, instead of just exporting priorities to be configurable by user?00:08
FIQas my batteries, while theoretically being the same, have different life lengths and probably different charges in practice00:09
Estel_Pali,  even by single hidden file, we won't tell anyone :P00:09
freemangordonEstel_: wh should have some sane values reporteb to not-that-smart users :)00:09
Estel_freemangordon,  so we have "sane" rx51 now reported to less smart users00:09
FIQand I happily swap them every charge, they essentially never stay in the N900 for more than one charge as I never charge on the N90000:10
freemangordonPali was talking about bars and charge00:10
Estel_smart ones can do config change. Or code it, if you want, no problem with it - just don't sacrifice configurability00:10
Paliin hald-addon-bme is this code:   if (capacity < 0)    capacity = 0;  else if (capacity > 100)    capacity = 100;00:10
Paliso 110 % is impossible ^^^00:10
Estel_bars are nice, as long as we can disable them :P00:10
freemangordonEstel_: well, i propose that for some future version00:11
FIQhaving an accurate % showing would probably be impossible for me, but it would be nice anyway :p00:11
Estel_whatever you will do will be good, as long as one can set up - even by config file - to use bq27x00 and screw rest00:11
freemangordonlets have everything in place (as logic) i guess it can be tweaked later on00:11
Estel_freemangordon,  why not00:11
Palikerio ^^^^^00:11
kerioi agree00:11
kerioalthough i still think that the default behaviour when facing a calibrated bq27200 should be to blindly report what it reports00:12
Estel_now tell me you all missed me :P00:12
Estel_kerio, enough :P00:12
Estel_even if I agree :P00:12
keriobecause a calibrated bq27200 IS THE LAW00:12
keriolike judge dredd00:13
freemangordonkerio: I guess Pali is doing that not only for you and Estel_ :P. And if I got it right, CSSU is the long-term goal. Thus we MUST think for guys and gals who have NFC what bq or rx51 is00:14
Estel_until you calibrated it with low usage, and then, do constant 1A power draw - battery will die, while reporting 600 mAh still left :00:14
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kerioEstel_: i usually calibrate with ~200mA of constant draw00:15
freemangordonkerio: BTW did you manage to go over 470 mA?00:15
keriofreemangordon: camera, torch, gps, wifi, cpu00:15
kerioi got to 950mA00:15
freemangordonnice :D00:15
keriofor a bit00:15
ShadowJKFIQ; bme has voltage curve thresholds. Primarily it tracks by counting current in/out, within specific voltage profile of a specific profiled battery. If battery is fresher or older than the profile (fixed profile, not adjustable), the reported charge level either freezes or makes a big jump. In border cases you get funny behaviour like hundred percent forever until empty :)00:15
xeskerio: ..with torch application?00:16
Estel_freemangordon,  sure. That's why I said configurability as an option, not enforcing anyone00:16
FIQShadowJK: I see00:16
Estel_xes, torch is quite power-savyy00:16
kerioxes: with cssu's nicocam00:16
FIQthe light draws much power?00:17
keriopush t00:17
Estel_one need recording video in hd (camera + cpu + dsp usage), gps, bluetooth, wifi without power saving, screen on at max brightness00:17
Estel_+ torch00:17
Estel_to get above 1A00:17
Estel_light is around 100mA IIRC00:17
freemangordonooh, camera focus is about 100mA too, iirc00:17
SpeedEviland download a file over 3g00:17
Estel_which makes N900 a 30h flashlight with dual-scud00:17
SpeedEvilwith the vibrator on00:17
kerioheh, i didn't really want to stress the system *too* much00:17
keriovibrator and camera focus engine all firing up at the same time00:18
Estel_SpeedEvil,  or send zeroes or urandom through 3G :P00:18
freemangordonkerio: why not, don;t you have a second device? :P00:18
keriofreemangordon: i should really do something with that one00:18
Estel_lets write app "battery killer"00:18
Estel_that enables everything at once00:18
Estel_and keeps it that way00:18
xesthere is way to measure the usb host mode current?00:18
kerioxes: 200mA00:18
Estel_check what bq27x00 reports00:19
freemangordonEstel_: I think it is way easier to use a hammer to kill the battery :D00:19
Estel_freemangordon,  as a discharge tool00:19
Estel_+ activate it via ssh00:19
Estel_to scarry people00:19
DocScrutinizer05xes: no, you can't measure VBUS-BOOST00:19
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  increased usage is shown as difference in current-now00:19
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DocScrutinizer05you can detect overcurrent cutout condition though, which will happen at 200mA00:19
Estel_mA draw of devixe changes00:19
Estel_with known values without device attached, one can measure how much device attached uses00:20
DocScrutinizer05sure, but that will usually dissolve in noise of normal powerconsumption of device00:20
xesi'm playing with an rtl-sdr receiver dongle but sometimes hangs ..i was supposing it was a problem with the usb current..00:20
DocScrutinizer05xes: use a powerd hub00:21
kerioxes: put a powered usb hub between the receiver and the n90000:21
Estel_or y-cable00:21
kerioor a y-cable, yes00:21
keriogoddammit guys stop typing so fast00:21
Estel_my y-cable got name, even00:21
Estel_"Hammer of Thor"00:21
Estel_need to see it to understand00:21
* kerio sometimes uses two y-cables to draw 1A from a computer00:22
DocScrutinizer05my Y-cable got a anme as well: Joerg's Y-cable (invented in 2008 iirc, for Openmoko)00:22
Estel_...and you end up drawing 200 mA00:22
xesi'll try..but the fun would be a complete portable sdr receiver ;)00:22
Estel_due to lack of negotiation00:22
Estel_whatever sdr is00:22
kerioEstel_: nah, my laptop and/or os x aren't picky00:22
kerioxes: battery pack?00:23
Estel_doesn't matter, usb specification won't let it00:23
keriothere's very little you can do, if 200mA aren't enough00:23
kerioEstel_: apple doesn't care about your puny specifications00:23
Estel_battery pack is cheap00:23
kerioor something00:23
Estel_and 5V stabilizer is free from maxim00:23
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kerioxes: neat!00:24
Estel_xes, looks neat, but what does it do?00:25
Estel_what samples over what?00:25
Estel_radio amateur?00:25
PaliEstel_, kerio, freemangordon: create wiki package and possible solutions what to show in battery widget and how to calculate it00:25
Palialso what should hald-addon-bme report00:25
Estel_wiki works @ 7b/s for me00:25
Paliand what should be "0" as unknown value00:26
Estel_so expect it in dawn of 201500:26
kerioPali: would you be ok with not displaying a capacity in some situations?00:26
freemangordonPali: would you mind to put what's curren in cssu-devel?00:26
Palikerio, percentage must be always reported00:26
kerioi meant capacity as in max capacity00:26
Paliunknown design capacity is "0"00:26
keriothe number after /00:26
* DocScrutinizer05 announcing service downtime of... DocScrutinizer0500:27
Paliyes, it can be 000:27
xesEstel: yes.... imagine you can receive any kind of signal....and decode with a software block of code..00:27
* kerio waves00:27
keriotake care doc00:27
kerioand sleep!00:27
HurrianPali, for user experience sake, could you set Design Capacity to 1300?00:27
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Estel_xes, what, cryptography?00:27
Hurrian(if unset)00:27
DocScrutinizer05sleep is overrated00:27
freemangordonHurrian: why?00:27
keriosleep is overrated until you're tired ;)00:27
freemangordonthat is what BME does00:27
Hurrianfreemangordon, ah00:27
freemangordonand it drives me nuts00:27
Estel_xes, cryptography over analog (or digital?) radio signal?00:27
Palifor now I wil not touch desing/max capacity code in status applet and hald-addon-bme00:28
xesEstel: the limit is fantasy and... cpu power00:28
freemangordonHurrian: well, 1260, but it is the same00:28
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I had lots of it since yesterday, none since monday before that00:28
Palicreate wiki page with solutions and we can discuss about variants00:28
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Estel_xes, whoa, interesting, so it's kind of long-range wifi, just low on speed?00:28
DocScrutinizer05kerio: but my mind need a defragmentation00:28
DocScrutinizer05so: o/00:29
Estel_cpu power of computer, or of dongle chip?00:29
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freemangordonPali: push the current version in cssu-devel please, so we can work on changes/improvements based on some real-life scenarios00:29
HurrianI was simply thinking, if replacement BME plus open battery module gets pushed into mainline CSSU, there'll be an entire storm of people bitching about their battery always being at 0%00:29
Palifreemangordon, last version is in cssu-devel00:29
DocScrutinizer05meh, for the friggin bot:00:29
Paliof status applet00:29
kerioHurrian: nah, we want to avoid that00:29
DocScrutinizer05kerio: but my mind need a defragmentation, so o/00:29
kerio~seen DocScrutinizer0500:30
freemangordonPali: aah, the one I deinstalled because of unusable bars with BME? :)00:30
Paliit should be version 1.0-200:30
infobotdocscrutinizer05 is currently on #maemo #n9 #harmattan #meego #openmoko #maemo-ssu #infobot #openmoko-cdevel. Has said a total of 49 messages. Is idling for 20s, last said: 'kerio: but my mind need a defragmentation, so o/'.00:30
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xesEstel: with that dongles you can receive from about 60MHz to 2000MHz... and decode any kind of modulation or signal00:30
xesbye DocScrutinizer05!00:30
Estel_xes, whoa00:31
Estel_need to read more about it, looks like my kind of heaven for modder00:31
* freemangordon waves00:31
kerioxes: how can you send stuff, though?00:31
Estel_~60 mhz should be quite long-range capable00:31
Estel_kerio, those dongles send it00:32
Estel_instead of receiving00:32
Estel_when properly treated00:32
Estel_with simple mod (very easy) and kernel modules and userland bits, approriate00:32
Estel_using this on the go with N90000:32
Estel_= more than mesh network00:32
kerioEstel_: maybe you can00:32
keriowith your bigass battery00:33
xesno kernel modules... only libs reading directly from usb00:33
Estel_just make yourself liIon belt00:33
Estel_xes, lol00:33
Estel_even better00:33
kerioEstel_: played minecraft ftb lately? :D00:33
xesuntil i'm receiving fm radio...and fmtx :)00:33
Estel_kerio, buy batteries best in price/capacity ration, and prepare bracelet/belt00:33
Estel_20 000mAh in your belt :P00:33
Estel_kerio, I ot only vague idea of what minecraft is00:34
kerioa game where you go around and build things00:34
keriothere's a popular modpack that adds a bunch of tecnical things00:34
Estel_xes, receiving and transmitting fm via those dongles is fun, but sending digital radio signal is more fun00:34
kerioincluding a bigass battery pack that you can wear instead of your chestplate, to automatically charge the electrical tools you use00:35
Estel_kerio, make it work on N900, the open source version :P00:35
Estel_in multiplayer00:35
* SpeedEvil has a 528000mAh 'USB battery'00:35
kerioi know some of the minetest dudes00:35
Estel_we have too few online multiplayer games for N90000:35
kerio(minecraft clone)00:35
SpeedEvilit is not very portable.00:35
Estel_SpeedEvil,  @ what voltage?00:35
kerioEstel_: anyway, scuds are still 20€/piece, or something, right?00:36
Estel_528A? and it weight ten kilos?00:36
SpeedEvilit's really 2*12v*110ah, with a SMPS00:36
SpeedEvilEstel_: no, not 10kg00:36
Estel_kerio, yes, but buying new, I recommend polarcell00:36
Estel_some claims new ones are 1700 mAh00:36
keriobut there's a 10€ battery on aliexpress that's still decent :D00:36
keriovi____ got a 1600mAh one00:36
Estel_kerio, price/quality battery for belt should cost around 3 euro00:37
Estel_if bl-5j00:37
Estel_but for belt you can use other types00:37
Estel_with better density00:37
Estel_SpeedEvil,  seriously, how much it weight?00:37
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Estel_and 528A is after taking into account conversion losses?00:37
kerioEstel_: i'm still waiting for the case redesign for the two 18650s, btw00:37
SpeedEvilEstel_: knock off 10*ish00:38
Estel_kerio, wait hapilly, it's proving so irritating, that I'm thinking about dropping it in favor of 3 flat batteries00:38
SpeedEvilEstel_: maybe 40kg00:38
Estel_SpeedEvil,  I see. How much it weight, approxi...?00:38
Estel_I though "no, no 10kg" was about that it's less heavy :P00:38
SpeedEvilit's got a raspberry pi plugged into it00:39
SpeedEviland a 750w ups00:39
Estel_your pi is going to get quite overweight fedding into it00:39
Estel_kerio, btw00:39
Estel_do you have any random 18650of whatever state00:39
Estel_living or not00:39
Estel_to send me for some tests?00:40
kerioi'm not a hardware guy at all00:40
Estel_damn, will need to scavenge some00:40
Estel_from old battery or whatever00:40
Estel_thickness it's not problem00:40
Estel_they're just little too long00:40
Estel_hard to put them there, considering secondary board with camera, even in V configuration00:41
kerioEstel_: what about shorter batteries?00:41
Estel_well, will give it some more love00:41
Estel_shorted would do it, but 14... ones doesn't have benefits of 1800:41
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Estel_more expensive, less popular etc00:42
Estel_so they stop being better than flat ones, at all00:42
Estel_choosing between two 14... and 3 flatties, I take 3 flatties00:42
Estel_althoug 18650 x 2 own even 3 flatties00:42
kerioEstel_: what can you do with the space of the stock cover?00:42
keriosay, something that fits inside an otterbox00:43
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Estel_stock covera? nothing, if it comes to battery00:43
Estel_jst better kickstand00:43
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keriois it *that* tightly packed?00:43
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Estel_well, look at your n900 with stock cover, where you want to put another battery00:44
Estel_if you mean body replacement, it will have all goddies in space of stock cover...00:44
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Estel_except battery00:44
FIQi've considered buying higher capacity batteries, but now that I have an external charger with not so optimal layout, there's no point00:44
Estel_xes, thanks00:44
xes;) feel the fantasy growing00:45
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Estel_hole shit, 137 miles00:46
Estel_I just hope that enough talented coders work on userland coding/decoding bits for it00:47
Estel_I wonder, btw, how high thoroughtput (bytes per second) for wireless communication would be achievable through it00:47
Estel_even if it would work for  10 miles reliably, it would be nice revolution for mesh networks00:48
xesit is only a receiver..00:48
xesno transmission00:48
Estel_and "we" would be ready to recreate free internet, when "they" take control over it ;)00:48
Estel_I know00:48
Estel_transmission is also possible, or not? that is how I understood it from first link00:49
Estel_"sending 8bit samples at frequencies..." etc00:49
xesnot with a 6 euro device :)00:49
futpib_so powerfull transmitter on usb-power, no way00:49
Estel_still, receiving capabilities are quite amazing00:50
xesin a few days i'll post all the packages compiled fot the n90000:51
Estel_whoa, nice00:51
Estel_just ping me with link if possible (or PM on TMO, if it will still work and I won't get banned in my sleep)00:51
Estel_next step - receiving signal from ISS ;)00:52
xessomeone has already received the iss with this...00:53
ShadowJKUgh, i've got massive backlog here. I'll reply in order, and apologies for redundant replies...00:53
ShadowJKFIQ: Boot-time bme current charge level (reporting.current) is pure guess. It's +-20% in best case.00:54
ShadowJKPali, not calibrated, battery bars from voltage, sounds like one half of bme's current algo (which is half current based and half voltage based :))00:56
ShadowJK(good approach overall tho for uncalibrated sensors)00:56
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ShadowJKFIQ, in theory, accurate metering for your batteries (and constant swapping) would be possible, but it would be alot of work, and prone to error :)00:58
ShadowJK(tl:dr; not worth the effort)00:59
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ShadowJKOn diablo I do this: Measure instantaneous current every 1s, integrate that. If accumulated value < 0, set value to 0. If voltage < 3400, set value to 0. If value > (user determined maximum capacity), set value to maximum user determined capacity.01:04
ShadowJKIt tends to drift upwards :(01:04
ShadowJKWhich is why I have max capa thing01:05
SpeedEvil5 seconds01:05
SpeedEvilthe ADC polls every 5.12s IIRC01:05
ShadowJKdoes not run on N90001:05
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Estel_xes, just add strong, directional transmitter, and build radar :)01:05
Estel_thing with planes is half of it, already01:06
Estel_based on receiving01:06
ShadowJKOn N800 max capa is 800 (originally 1200), N810 1500 (should be 1300 or so, bought new batt last year)01:06
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ShadowJKI don't have have "full charge detection" in my script on Diablo... something that bq runs in hw01:07
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ShadowJKRan my diablo script (with 5s period instead of 1s) on fremantle too (with mods), and "full charge" could vary by +-100mAh depending on system load and stuff01:08
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infobotpali is, like,
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pauly1210Can i use Maemo 5 SDK on x64 linux?02:36
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pauly1210the maemo wiki is down but the nokia developer page says a 32 bit ubnutu would work>02:37
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ShadowJKI used the VM image on linux02:38
pauly1210ShadowJK: ya i dont think scratchbox would work, i forgot about the vm thanks02:40
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ShadowJKAll the infra is in a state of flux right now, so I dunno what's up and what's down or whether you'll be able to download the vm or not :/02:42
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pauly1210ShadowJK: how about just getting Qt Creator ?02:44
ShadowJKIf it works for you, why not02:46
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bef0rdget qtcreator from nokia02:55
bef0rdNokia Qt SDK its called I believe02:55
pauly1210bef0rd: thanks downloading now03:01
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freemangordonromaxa: is there any documentation of embedLite API? or header files are supposed to be enough?10:57
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keriocalibrated the battery, 1420mAh for 10$12:15
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Estel_I'm thinking about writin small set of scripta (tm) allowing people to automagically migrate to ext4 (and back to ext3) for /home, if desired12:23
Estel_it would consist of small backupmenu fork (for would be standalone, as it would be useful for anyone on kernel-power, allowing better compression - lzma instead of gzip - bq4... charging, and so goes on), and scripts modifying mount-opts to utilize ext4 benefits during home mount12:24
Estel_ext4-migrant would depend on this backupmenu fork and some feature of kernel-power12:25
Estel_now, I don't want to depend on kernel power, as what I really need is ext4 support, by this or any other kernel. So, I think that depending on certain *feature* provided by kernel power, would be better suited12:26
Estel_in case of hypothetical other kernel providing ext4 support, it could just provide same feature12:26
Estel_now, my question is - does anyone see caveats in this approach, in this certain case?12:27
kerioEstel_: base it on rescueos instead12:27
Estel_of course stuff will be highly experimental and at own risk, yet, I would like to minimise risk of bricking...12:27
Estel_kerio, resuceos won't be automagical ;)12:27
keriomake it automagical12:28
Estel_and I planned to fork backupmenu for kernel-power users only, too12:28
Estel_i.e. utilizing mkfs.ext4 with custom options suited for our flash12:28
Estel_and few other improvements that, sadly or not, require kp12:28
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kerioi think that the kernel used by rescueos supports ext412:28
kerionot sure, though12:29
Estel_BTW, if someone use automagic to migrate to ext4, i *want* him to have backupmenu backups :P12:29
kerioand i'm not sure that the kp modules will fit in the initrd12:29
Estel_but, one need to have kp at normal runtime, why migrating to ext4 otherwise12:29
Estel_have you seen anyone running hildon day to day on rescueos kernel? :P12:29
kerioEstel_: because bootmenu is a piece of crap12:30
Estel_my whole idea is about nullifing need to use external PC...12:30
Estel_or custom mounts12:30
Estel_or this whole magic...12:30
keriothat's why i have rescueos in my uboot bootmenu :)12:30
kerioit's surprisingly useful12:31
Estel_lately I was migrating my device to another motherboard, and Exploiting backupmenu for that (vanilla device -> my custom partition layout and ext4 etc) was very conveinent way12:31
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Estel_BTW, I even repartitioned new device via old device and hostmode12:31
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kerioyeah, it's pretty neat12:31
Estel_and easy debian and gparted12:32
kerioi deleted the swap partition on emmc and just repartitioned to make more room for optfs12:32
kerioand then just restored12:32
Estel_whole concept is that user install ext4-migrant12:32
Estel_hehe, I did whole new partition table12:32
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Estel_...and ext4-migrant depends on backupmenu fork and feature of kernel-power that prvides ext412:33
Estel_ext4-migrant updates mount-opts, genfstab.awk, and whatsnot, to utilize ext4 and special capabilities that our mkfs will do later...12:34
kerioEstel_: why do you still use the fstab generation?12:34
Estel_then, it (ext4-migrant) instruct user to reboot device with keyboard slided out12:34
Estel_because device doesn't boot without it? :P12:34
kerioworks fine for me12:34
kerioi just put the fstab generation between "if false; then"/"fi"12:34
Estel_hm, if I leave genfstab with ext3 hardcoded there, my device wont boot12:34
kerioso change it and then reboot12:35
Estel_well, no idea what it could break in long run12:35
kerioand you also need to change the "home was mounted as readwrite" verification, i know12:35
Estel_...and then cssu update comes and overwrite my changes12:35
keriobut i reckon there should be a more agnostic way12:35
Estel_then, I spend 4564565 hours determining what got changed and where12:35
Estel_and redo my old changes, that I barely remember at this time12:36
kerioEstel_: it's your fault if you modify system files without diverting them12:36
keriobut apt-get will prompt when it's about to modify one of your modified configuration files12:36
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Estel_so I won't modify them and won't have a problem - i don't need to get rid of genfstab for anything12:36
Estel_it's art for the sake of art12:36
Estel_...that's why I don't modify them if it doesn't gain me anything, and just update genfstab with ext4 instead of ext3 :P12:37
Estel_easier to remember (and code into automagic scripts) than whole magic behind getting rid of fstab generation12:37
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Estel_if it would give me any benefits, then, sure, but currently, there are none12:37
kerioEstel_: so what happens when cssu changes genfstab.awk?12:38
Estel_I change it back - not ideal, but easier than changing bunch of other long scripts in many places12:38
Estel_<kerio> i just put the fstab generation between "if false; then"/"fi"12:38
Estel_<kerio> and you also need to change the "home was mounted as readwrite" verification, i know12:38
kerioyou have to do the last thing anyway12:38
kerioand the first thing is in the same file12:39
Estel_replacing "ext3" with "ext4" sounds easier to remember about ;)12:39
Estel_in one short file12:39
Estel_well, unless it result in any benefits, one file to edit with one value < two files to edit with many values12:39
kerioEstel_: it's *the same file*12:40
Estel_anyway, back to ext4-migrant idea, after it asks user to reboot with keyboard slided out, he have to... no problem if he forget, as he will be in reboot loop then, so he have unlimited number of chances... :P12:41
kerioit's literally 10 lines below12:41
Estel_kerio,  first thing, but second isn't12:41
keriothe second will be unneeded12:41
Estel_after booting into backupmenu, simply creating backup of optfs and restoring it will do all magic12:41
Estel_as mkfs.ext4 with all parameteres tailored to serve our flash best are coded already12:42
Estel_after restoring it, user bootsup normally into ext4-home powered device, without messing with desktop or whatsnot12:42
Estel_benefits - performance gains due to useless (on flash) barriers enabled, and usage of experimental stripe-stride config12:43
kerioit's **the same file**12:43
kerioand cssu will never change /etc/fstab12:43
keriobut it will change genfstab.awk12:43
kerioand mount-opts12:44
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keriogg no re12:47
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ccxmoso I've changed my apt sources to maemo-archive but extras doesn't sync and others report hash mismatches when installing12:54
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, mirror is
kerioiirc the mirrors work12:55
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sixwheeledbeastwhere's the images and flashers hanging about now?13:05
DocScrutinizer05yes, skeiron works, others have hashsum error13:05
DocScrutinizer05at least that's the rumor13:06
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kerioi had errors on skeiron with the fremantle/tools repo13:06
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Estel_well, forget about low battery while bme disabled :P13:06
kerioEstel_: you need the whole bme replacement pack13:07
Estel_will wait till applet is fixed13:07
kerioEstel_: anyway, yours was clearly a ragequit, i'm sorry13:07
kerioi win13:07
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Estel_better repeat what you've said, as my last message was last I've seen13:07
kerioas i was saying,
Estel_and wiki for irclog locations doesnt want to work13:08
kerioit's the same file13:08
kerioand cssu won't change /etc/fstab13:08
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keriohowever, it will change genfstab.awk13:08
Estel_true, true, I just wanted to read logs before connecting13:08
keriohold on now, what's preventing me from downloading sygic for free?13:09
Estel_fact that modrana is way better?13:09
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Estel_it reminds me to reach MartinK, as google changes something re overlay13:10
Estel_and overlay fail to work13:10
kerioEstel_: monav has offline everything13:10
Estel_yahoo overlay is quite outdated, too13:10
Estel_sure, I'm not talking about routing13:10
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Estel_I mean visible map, I use google satelite view + overlay as overlay, which result in streets transparently mapped on satelite view13:11
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keriopester him to add vector rendering instead13:11
Estel_he is working on it13:11
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Estel_personally, I preffer satelite view, but of course vector map have nice things to offer, too13:11
ccxmonow I got gpg expired errors and gzip crashing :S13:12
kerioccxmo: which repo?13:12
kerioand really, why does ovi have a store when you can just apt-get install the apps for free? :o13:13
Estel_not payware ones, methink?13:13
keriosygic is definetely payware13:13
Estel_no idea, never used or want to use ovi store13:13
keriounless it has its own internal method of payment13:13
Estel_strange, maybe someone who used ovi at least once could explain13:14
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: you got CSSU, eh?13:17
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ccxmokerio: it was because of skeiron missing -testing apparently13:18
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DocScrutinizer05yes, we left testing out of skeiron13:18
DocScrutinizer05since somebody convinced me it's useless since only a subclass of devel13:19
ccxmogot backupmenu installed at last, thanks13:19
DocScrutinizer05on hindsight we probably should have kept it13:19
* ccxmo goes to reboot13:19
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keriooh right, the current testing has a fairly big problem13:26
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kerioit needs a package from extras-testing or extras-devel13:26
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StyXmanI got them13:41
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Milhouse_Can anybody tell me if the fremantle images will be available on the new server13:43
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DocScrutinizer05which images?13:46
Milhouse_the firmware images for n900 Pr1.313:48
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: do we have any "official" mirrors for tablets-dev?13:48
Milhouse_i hadn't downloaded a backup image before the servers went down13:49
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infobotwell, mirror is
keriono tablets-dev there :(13:50
thedead1440Milhouse_:  <-- N900 firmwares there13:50
DocScrutinizer05kerio: the flasher and fiasco stuff?13:50
DocScrutinizer05  but you have to "figure" the names of files in there, and if you dare to post the full URL anywhere, they will be gone same moment13:51
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Milhouse_wow, thanks a lot, you're great13:54
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: are those only the fiasco images?13:55
kerioi wonder where i can get the os x flasher, at this point13:55
kerioalso, for fuck's sake, why did nokia just drop that server?13:56
DocScrutinizer05NFC, really13:56
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ShadowJKis it dropped or just usual weekend fail?13:56
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DocScrutinizer05I'd hope the latter13:56
DocScrutinizer05a DNS query might tell13:56
DocScrutinizer05if the DNs vanished, we're fsckd13:57
cehtehmhm .. when will it back to normal? .. i dont need urgend upgrades so i didnt changed any config yet13:57
ShadowJKpoints to akamai13:57
DocScrutinizer05and those akamai are still existent?13:58
ShadowJKI get two IPs13:58
DocScrutinizer05I mean, hard to believe a whole serverfarm goes down by hw defect13:58
DocScrutinizer05do they ping13:58
ShadowJKdidn't check13:59
cehtehit was a small asteroid impact, nothing serious :)13:59
DocScrutinizer05was the name of the asteroid "elop"? (SCNR)13:59
ShadowJKyep, pings14:00
DocScrutinizer05then probably nothing really bad happened yet14:00
DocScrutinizer05they messed up, nothing unusual14:00
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ShadowJKquestuin is if anyone is around to fix it :)14:01
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders what's the "" for tablets-dev14:01
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: TODAY? you're kidding14:02
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Milhouse_no access to 'fiasco+co'14:03
DocScrutinizer05toldya you need to "figure" the filenames, and DO NOT post the full URL *anywhere*14:05
DocScrutinizer05Milhouse_: look, for your convenience I even disclosed what file I have on my private backup, some lines above14:06
DocScrutinizer05now append those filenames, and you're done14:06
DocScrutinizer05got it?14:08
Milhouse_ok thanks14:09
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Milhouse_ups, sorry14:14
Milhouse_I think I'll wait for a couple if there'll be any official server. Nokia sucks!14:15
Milhouse_thank a lot for your support14:15
Milhouse_Elop sucks!14:15
Milhouse_worst service ever!14:16
DocScrutinizer05I just added to my private archive14:20
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CcxCZ_how do I select gnu coreutils instead of busybox?14:25
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DocScrutinizer05install them and you get them in bin/gnu/ (which you can add to your path, just before bin/)14:26
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DocScrutinizer05or invoke with a leading "g"14:26
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DocScrutinizer05so ls becomes gls14:26
DocScrutinizer05find becomes gfind14:26
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DocScrutinizer05those are symlinks from bin/ to bin/gnu/14:27
DocScrutinizer05you have to pick your tools, find e.g. is in findutils pkg iirc14:27
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DocScrutinizer05maybe even findutils-gnu14:28
DocScrutinizer05there are other *utils-gnu14:28
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, do you remeber problem with sudo gainroot?14:29
Paligainroot is part of sudo package14:29
Estel_tracker-processes -r nukes tracker database, but who remember command to force it to start rebuilding?14:29
Paliand I want to fix it in cssu14:29
Paliis calling "su -" enought (instead /bin/sh)?14:30
Estel_after cssu update I *again* find myself with tracker ignoring flac and ogg files (not sure yet if it's really cssu fault)14:30
DocScrutinizer05Pali: gainroot is part of sudo??14:30
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DocScrutinizer05I'd think it's part of rootsh14:30
Palirootsh patching that gainroot14:30
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Estel_M4rtinK,  ping14:31
Palibut script comes from sudo package14:31
DocScrutinizer05nasty shite14:31
PaliI can fix both packages14:31
Palibut we need working extras14:31
PaliI think that calling "sudo su -i" is ok14:31
kerioEstel_: tracker-status ought to do it14:31
kerioor something that calls tracker14:31
M4rtinKEstel_: ?14:31
Palibetter then "sudo sh"14:31
Estel_M4rtinK,  I've been testing cause of some modrana problems I was facing lately, and it seems, that google changed something re their satelite and overlay14:32
Estel_as a result, it doesnt work in modrana anymore14:32
keriocan we obliterate that piece of shit rootsh from extras please14:32
Estel_tiles show error with map service - change layout, try again later, etc14:32
keriosudser is also horrendously broken14:32
DocScrutinizer05Pali: pretty please triple-check, since if that stuff breaks on vanilla systems, you fscked up epically14:32
Palikerio, are you goint it to fix?14:32
PaliDocScrutinizer05, I know14:33
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Estel_OTOH, with google overlay, it's strange, as it does work for very *far* view - aka countries - but refuses to work on close look14:33
DocScrutinizer05and I'm pretty sure messybox su is fubar14:33
kerioPali: gainroot is to be used as the "official" way to get root14:33
PaliDocScrutinizer05, when deb packages will be created, are you going to test if all working?14:33
kerioaka, when rdmode is enabled14:33
Pali(before pushing to cssu and extras?)14:33
Estel_sadlyp with google overlay, I'm not sure WTF, as modrana just stuck on "loading" instead of tile image, *not* downloaing and map service error14:33
Estel_yahoo overlay works ok, though14:33
Estel_so I would say it's about google, not modrana staight bug14:34
keriothe whole concept of rootsh is broken, because gainroot is broken, and gainroot has to be like it is for histerical raisins14:34
DocScrutinizer05Pali: might do, if I find the time14:34
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: my systems are pretty non-vanilla thhough14:34
PaliDocScrutinizer05, after merlin1991 create sudo repo on gitorious you can look at patch14:34
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DocScrutinizer05looking at patch doesn't help much here, since that's related to messybox broken su14:35
Estel_M4rtinK,  if I can help by providing some more detailed info, just ask14:35
DocScrutinizer05it might look perfect, but fails with messybox14:35
M4rtinKEstel_: Google Overlay seems to work for me & Satellite seems broken14:35
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i'm not entirely sure that messybox su is *that* wrong14:35
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kerioit's just not suid root, so it can't work14:35
DocScrutinizer05it *is*14:35
kerioso run it as root14:36
Estel_M4rtinK,  hm, for me, overlay works only from local storage14:36
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DocScrutinizer05and it MUST NOT get suid *ever*14:36
kerio"sudo su" doesn't execute root's .profile but at least it sets the correct envvars14:36
M4rtinKEstel_: oh, taht can be it14:36
Estel_where I dont have tiles, it's stuck on "loading" instead of downloading14:36
kerio"sudo su -l" gives me a login shell14:36
keriomuch like "sudo -i"14:36
Palikerio, gainroot script script checkig if you have R&D enabled and if yes, then it call /bin/sh14:36
CcxCZ_is there something like factory-wipe so I can remove previous user's setup?14:36
Estel_yea, but I'm curious why it doesn't act like satelite, i.e. trying to download and failing... satelite does it, overlay seems stuck on loading?14:36
kerioPali: change it to run su -l14:37
Paliif you not call gainroot with sudo you will ged R&D is disabled14:37
Estel_CcxCZ_,  ~reflash14:37
Paliwhat is difference between su - and su -l?14:37
M4rtinKEstel_: nope, overly works even for an unknown area14:37
kerioPali: oh, the same14:37
CcxCZ_flashing guide anywhere?14:37
Estel_M4rtinK,  strange, maybe it's me about overlay then. But I'm surprised, as everything else works14:37
Estel_anyway, we can confirm that satelite got broken, at least, yep?14:38
DocScrutinizer05Pali: which problem are you fixing with this patch?14:38
M4rtinKEstel_: they periodically chnage the URLS - there is a numbered component in each of them14:38
Estel_yea, I'm aware of that, very irritating14:38
M4rtinKEstel_: it is probably to track which service is using which and when it started using it14:39
Estel_btw, before next version, is there any file user can edit by hand as pathwork fix?14:39
PaliDocScrutinizer05, correct $HOME correct $USER14:39
M4rtinKEstel_: so they might be phasing out some of the older URLs14:39
keriois gainroot supposed to give you a login shell, though?14:39
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, reflash is zImage and/or initrd.bin on CF and press C+D+Reset (collie) OR, zimage.bin and/or initrd.bin on CF/SD and press OK while rebooting, then option 4, then CD or SF, then HAI (yes), then wait and cross fingers (all other models)14:39
PaliDocScrutinizer05, try to run: sudo gainroot and sudo -i and sudo su14:39
M4rtinKEstel_: .modrana/map_config.conf14:39
Paliyou will see different envs14:39
Estel_infobot, that wasnt helpful14:39
Estel_M4rtinK,  lol14:39
DocScrutinizer05I get correct $HOME and $USER with command `root`. Command sudo gainroot is NOT meant to have root envs14:40
Estel_haven't expected it's there :) btw, what is best way to determine correct address now?14:40
DocScrutinizer05and I absolutely deprecate changing semantics here14:40
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M4rtinKEstel_: just note that the file will be replaced once a new "official" one is available & the old one should get renamed14:40
* Estel_ nods14:40
DocScrutinizer05you even MUST NOT change semantics of sudo gainroot14:41
M4rtinKEstel_: search -> Address online ?14:41
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.14:41
Estel_Pali,  I agree with DocScrutinizer05 here, unless there is an issue unknown to me, that you're fixing by it14:41
kerioDocScrutinizer05: rootsh already changes them14:41
Estel_M4rtinK,  no, I havent thought about "that" address :P14:41
DocScrutinizer05kerio: BS14:41
Estel_I mean what to put into config14:41
Estel_to make satelite working again14:41
Estel_i.e. how to best determine correct new address they're using14:42
DocScrutinizer05sudo gainroot == su; root == su -14:42
Estel_sorry, I'm kinda green when it comes to google ever-changing services14:42
M4rtinKEstel_: just open google maps, switch to satellite view & check what urls are the tiles using14:42
keriogainroot, ran as root, is supposed to run sh as root if rd-mode is enabled, and it's supposed to be runnable via sudo without being asked a password14:42
PaliDocScrutinizer05, no14:42
Palisudo gainroot doing sudo sh14:42
Estel_M4rtinK,  ah, it's easy as that14:42
Estel_OK, thanks14:42
M4rtinKEstel_: yep14:42
Paliand calling sudo sh is *bad* idea14:42
keriosource: the "sudo" package, as it appears in stock fremantle14:42
Estel_I'll play a little more with overlay, and report back if problem persist, with some debug output14:43
DocScrutinizer05Pali: I done't give a ***** what it *executes*, i talk about what it *does*14:43
M4rtinKEstel_: there is also another possibility - they might not like the modRana user agent14:43
M4rtinKEstel_: thanks !14:43
PaliDocScrutinizer05, so then sudo gainroot does *not* do su14:43
DocScrutinizer05yes it does14:43
Estel_M4rtinK,  user agent, huh?14:43
PaliDocScrutinizer05, no14:44
Estel_in such case it's also configurable?14:44
Palisudo su != sudo sh14:44
kerioDocScrutinizer05: "su" will still set $HOME and $USER14:44
keriosudo gainroot won't14:44
DocScrutinizer05NO IT DOESNT14:44
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Palisudo will not set envs correcty14:44
DocScrutinizer05kerio: get your shit sorted14:44
Palisu will do it14:44
M4rtinKEstel_: hmm, I think not yet14:44
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: my shit is properly sorted and packed14:45
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kerioopen any proper unix system, type su and then echo $HOME14:45
Estel_M4rtinK,  ok, we will worry about it if they block (unless you want to be prepared against that offence to freeedom :P if it's not much work to add it into new version)14:45
M4rtinKEstel_: but I think it should be added as an option for enterprising users :)14:45
M4rtinKEstel_: yeah, fixing the URLs comes first14:46
PaliDocScrutinizer05, then your version of "su" is incorrect14:46
DocScrutinizer05damn, my version of su on PC is incorrect14:46
Palicall su and then call echo $HOME14:46
DocScrutinizer05so are my statements above, but that doesn't change anything regarding NOt TO CHANGE SEMANTICS of sudo gainroot14:46
Palido it on n900, call sudo gainroot and call echo $HOME14:47
Estel_why not?14:47
Paliso why we should have broken su in our devices??14:47
DocScrutinizer05because we always had14:47
Palibecause nokia done it?14:48
Estel_kerio,  Pali, quick question. Will fixing it broke many packages or scripts?14:48
Estel_if not, lets fix it14:48
Estel_and screw what nokia did14:48
DocScrutinizer05we have NO version of su on our N90014:48
Estel_if it is riskyp then think again14:48
PaliEstel_, sudo gainroot is for R&D mode14:48
DocScrutinizer05we have sudo gainroot and root14:48
PaliI do not know how if any app depends on R&D mode14:48
kerioEstel_: any package that relies on rootsh doesn't deserve its space in bits14:48
Estel_Pali,  sure, I'm just asking if program or scripts relying on our current implementation of root or gainroot will get broken14:48
DocScrutinizer05and that has a well known semantics that many packages rely on14:49
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kerioEstel_: qtmobilehotspot depends on gainroot in a bad way14:49
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DocScrutinizer05you don't want to 2fix" dat shite for shits'n'giggles14:49
PaliEstel_, I did not see any app which depends on gainroot14:49
kerioPali: qtmobilehotspot14:49
kerioand any package rdepending on rootsh14:49
Estel_so until you can get in touch of maintainers of such widely used things as qtmobilehotspot (and others), and ask them to fix...14:49
Estel_or fix them yourself14:49
Palikerio, really? and it checking $HOME??14:49
Estel_please don't touch it :)14:49
kerioPali: i don't know14:49
kerioi'm staying the hell away from it14:50
Palisorry but this is stupid14:50
Paliwhy some application running as root needs HOME to be set to user?14:50
kerioPali: just configure sudo properly14:50
Estel_ok, while I agree with You Pali that bad tings should be fixed, not kept due to habit, this is special situation14:50
DocScrutinizer05no, messing with such silly "fixes" is stupid14:50
kerioPali: maybe PATH14:50
keriomaybe it relies on the current working directory14:50
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keriomaybe it relies on some kind of freaky job control that fails with a proper login14:50
Estel_since always we had it, and many things may get broken if you change it just for the sake14:50
DocScrutinizer05ship a new rootsh-pali-finally-correct package, and do in it whatever you want14:51
kerioare you willing to inspect every package in extras for any mention of gainroot?14:51
DocScrutinizer05DO NOT change semantics of rootsh14:51
Estel_so unless we can fix all things that rely on it, by hand, or perform some "compatibility layer" that will allow them to work...14:51
Estel_changing this piece of bit is little risky14:51
Palikerio, sudo gainroot changing directory to /root/14:51
Palisu chaning it to /root/ too14:51
keriobtw, rootsh is a package that violates about every kind of packaging guideline14:51
Estel_keri, so go and fix it as soon as repos are online14:52
Estel_it's still single most popular package in maemo14:52
kerioEstel_: the only fix is to delete it and pretend it never existed14:52
DocScrutinizer05kerio: we simply don't care since it ever did and we can't change the past14:52
Estel_just take into account that I'm asking seriously.14:52
Estel_either we fix it on big scale14:52
Estel_or make sad face and accept that fixing it now would cause fubar mess14:53
DocScrutinizer05I have to agree with Estel_14:53
Estel_I have no idea how to fix it on big scale, if someone have - by some mad in the middle script or whatsnot - lets talk about it14:53
keriohrmpf, i suppose that it could at least avoid the packaging issue14:53
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Estel_I'm all for fixing nonsense made by nokia or early maemo adopters, but only if we wont break half or 1/4 of repo content14:53
DocScrutinizer05particularly since I don't see a single valid bug ticket14:54
Estel_and no matter if we like it or not, rootsh is still more popular than anything else, including cssu ;)14:54
ShadowJKcan you do "alias su=gainroot" and "alias 'su -'='root'" somewhere? ;-)14:55
Estel_well, here we a little disagree, as I would have nothing against fixing it just for sake of future less-mess, but only id it wouldn't hurt (too bad)14:55
kerioShadowJK: different syntax14:55
* ShadowJK doesn't even see a problem keeping it the way it is14:55
Estel_but now it seems to be hurting badly14:55
DocScrutinizer05it is future-maximum-mess14:55
Estel_so there are 3 of us already :P14:55
kerioShadowJK: you have packages doing stuff like echo 'command' | root14:55
ShadowJKit's not like we have working pam either14:55
Palisu != gainroot --> which should be fixed14:56
Estel_DocScrutinizer05,  right, currently, yes14:56
keriothat shit is fucked up, yo14:56
Estel_thats why i said "if it wouldn't hurt (too bad)"14:56
DocScrutinizer05Pali: says who?14:56
Estel_replace should with "could"14:56
Estel_it could be fixed and I would say yes, eagerly, if it wouldn't bring risk of fubar'ing half of repo14:57
ShadowJKLet's do it the Sun way, create a /usr/gnu/ prefix for gnulike replacements, then you can choose maemo standard or gnu standard at will14:57
DocScrutinizer05it definitely WILL fubar stuff14:57
Estel_qtmobilehotspot wasn't written by idiot, and if they did it like they did - ok, I agree that they should use other way, but I can only imagine that many others followed same scheme14:57
kerioEstel_: fwiw, a package that breaks because you change something in rootsh's gainroot means that it was doing something seriously wrong, and it should be fixed14:57
kerioand the developer should be fixed too14:58
kerioso we reduce the damage to the genetic pool14:58
Estel_kerio,  sure, but you should tell them when they released14:58
Estel_not a year after they're not contactable14:58
DocScrutinizer05and the one breaking rootsh on purpose to force others to fix their stupid progs will get shot14:58
Estel_I know rootsh is doing it the wrong way, but, it's special case due to it being legacy of early maemo adopters14:59
DocScrutinizer05I promise that14:59
keriomeh, at least we should fix rootsh's packaging14:59
Palinote that rootsh is 3rd application from extras which provide root binary, so each package which depends on it is in maemo package interface14:59
Paliwe can look at it and find if something could break14:59
Estel_kerio,  we may not like it, but it's like trashing half of the city, because socialist's architects did it wrong way14:59
Estel_and leaving people homeless, for greater good14:59
DocScrutinizer05Pali: go ahead15:00
Estel_in Poland we have many examples of sad architecture, but nuking it all at once isn't good fix15:00
DocScrutinizer05when you're done with finding all pkgs using rootsh in *-install or anyewhere in program, maybe even without proper DEPENDS in pks, when you got all fixed and tested and claimed maintainership, than come back here and report15:01
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: honestly, it's a silly idea15:01
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: ship a better-rootsh pkg, deprecate rootsh pkg, in 2 or 3 years you can start to fade it out. That's the way such stuff gets handled15:03
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DocScrutinizer05why not ship a proper su-package?15:05
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DocScrutinizer05su is borked just because silly messybox. Ship a proper stand-alone su binary and fine you are15:06
keriohow does one apply for maintainership of a package?15:06
DocScrutinizer05will conflict with messybox, but so what?15:07
Estel_kerio, you get logged in15:07
Estel_and from package page, you apply15:07
Estel_you can send new version to devel without being maintainer, though15:07
kerioone does not "conflict" with messybox15:07
kerioreplace or divert or change messybox and update both at the same time15:07
Estel_Pali,  in fact after shipping proper rootsh package you could start fading it away in 6 months :P15:08
keriohm, would it be a stretch for the busybox package to include a proper su binary?15:08
Estel_as things are going faster in Maemo15:08
Estel_kerio,  busybox power is the answer15:08
keriobusybox-power's su is also broken15:08
Estel_but then it would need to get into cssu without idiotic requiments to split it into two packages15:08
Estel_but it can get fixed ,)15:08
keriobecause you'd have to make busybox suid15:08
Estel_no, seriously15:08
keriowhich is a Bad Idea™15:09
Estel_Pali's idea is good15:09
Estel_but not suddenly15:09
keriono, seriously, su needs to be a separate binary15:09
Estel_first, lets fix broken packages, starting with rootsh15:09
Estel_M4rtinK,  sorry for pestering, but whats difference between:15:09
Paliand question again: why we should install another binary to n900, and have also old bad binary?15:09
Estel_and vt/lyrs=s15:09
Estel_suffix of address?15:10
Estel_I see old value commented out in .map-config15:10
Paliwhy should I have installed both good and bad binary in my n900?15:10
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Estel_new calue, if satelite map is open from browser, have vt/lyrs= suffix15:10
Estel_but, it should be updated too, or kept kh/v=107?15:10
Estel_M4rtinK,  ^. Again, sorry for pestering, I just don't have idea what it uses and if mimicing browser view entirely is good idea15:11
DocScrutinizer05I for the life of mine don't see the root problem (pun intended), use `root` to get proper root env and perms, use `sudo gainroot` to get root without changing environment15:11
kerioPali: the issue is that /bin/su MUST be suid root15:11
kerioto work properly15:11
keriobusybox works by having one binary and a bunch of symlinks15:12
keriosymlinks can't be made suid root15:12
kerioand you MUST NOT make /bin/busybox suid root15:12
Palikerio, I know and this is reason why I want to call /bin/su from gainroot called via sudo15:12
Palithis will work because su will be called as root15:12
Pali(I tested it)15:12
DocScrutinizer05WTF we *must* change semantics of `sudo gainroot`???15:12
kerioPali: sudo gainroot --use-su15:12
Estel_isn't it achievable by not breaking "root" and "gainroot" as used by rootsh?15:13
Palikerio, that working only if you have installed rootsh package15:13
keriowhich is what is ran by `root`15:13
keriook then15:13
keriosudo gainroot15:13
kerioand then type su -15:13
Paligainroot comes from sudo package from SSU15:13
Paliroot and patched gainroot comes from extras package rootsh15:13
kerioand that one doesn't have --use-su15:13
DocScrutinizer05calling su that doesn't do any su is a meaningless execise15:14
keriobut if i had to guess, i'd say that that separate option was added *because* they didn't want to break the existing semantics15:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: su - makes a login shell of some sorts15:14
PaliDocScrutinizer05, no, it create *proper* shell15:14
kerioit's probably the same as typing login, or something akin to that15:14
M4rtinKEstel_: I mostly just try to discard all components from the URL as long I can get a working link to the tile image15:15
Estel_so cut-and-check, until it dies?15:15
kerioit should be the same as running login -f root15:15
Estel_then revert to shortest working link?15:15
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M4rtinKEstel_: hmm, now when I think about it, Google might then think about the URL as less trustworthy :)15:15
M4rtinKEstel_: yeah, basically15:16
Estel_M4rtinK,  holy shit, we need open soource satelite swarm15:17
Estel_this google thing is way to messy15:18
DocScrutinizer05Pali: you ever thought that maybe those who use `sudo gainroot` do *not* *wnat* a proper shell?15:18
M4rtinKIIRC there are even some licence compatible aerial data sets15:18
Palino, because sudo gainroot shoudl do proper shell15:18
M4rtinKbut no one is currently hosting them in an usable form15:18
Palialso it write "Root shell enabled"15:18
DocScrutinizer05Pali: says who?15:18
PaliDocScrutinizer05, sudo gainroot say it15:19
M4rtinKEstel_: see:
PaliDocScrutinizer05, then remove bad message from gainroot15:19
Paliit not doing root shell15:19
DocScrutinizer05Pali: just because _you_ _think_ it 2should do a proper shell" is no argument to patch mess into mess15:19
M4rtinKEstel_: currently offline15:19
DocScrutinizer05Pali: no, I want that messy message15:20
PaliDocScrutinizer05, look at what sudo gainroot writing and what doing15:20
Estel_M4rtinK,  I see...15:20
Paliit is not root shell what gainroot doing15:20
Paliremove that message or fix sudo gainroot to do what it prints15:20
DocScrutinizer05I don't give a shit what it's writing, I care what it did so far, and I expect it continues to do exactly that15:20
Estel_well, Pali have a point here15:20
Paliand I expect that some application will do what writing15:21
Estel_I don't see reason why we can't fix that simple message in rootsh, and it's packaging problem at the same time15:21
DocScrutinizer05Estel_: then he should remove that message15:21
* Estel_ nods15:21
keriothat message is part of the semantics15:21
Estel_while i can live with this idiotic message, if cosmetic is what he want to spend time on, why not. all for the better15:21
Palior instead that message it should write: this is not proper root shell15:21
Palithis is bug: application not doing what printing to user15:22
M4rtinKEstel_:hmm, changing v=107 to v=124 might be enough15:22
Estel_as long as it doesnt break half of repos I'm all for fixes :)15:22
keriohow can you be sure that there's no program that, say, expects that line to send commands?15:22
Estel_M4rtinK,  hm, thanks, I already did vt/lyrs=s, will see what it ends up like15:22
DocScrutinizer05BWAHAHAHAAAAHAA "i'm lieing, *always*"15:22
M4rtinKEstel_: but it is quite hard to test if google already autobanned you for downloading to many tiles (happens all the time)15:22
Estel_M4rtinK,  lol, true15:23
Paliand really I do not have any idea how can changing sudo sh --> to sudo su break application15:23
Palisudo su --> sudo sh is possible15:23
Estel_if yahoo sat wouldnt be too outdated, I wouldn't gie a rat's shit about google sat view15:23
Palibut our direction not15:23
M4rtinKEstel_: an interesting experiemtn might be to leve also some of the other options in the url, just to see it makes it more trustworthy :)15:23
Estel_or if we would have open aerial map ;)15:23
Estel_why not, I can testdrive it15:23
M4rtinKEstel_: yeah, Google is unfortunately the only globally usable15:23
PaliI can see couple of reason why some applications could be broken with current situation15:24
M4rtinKEstel_: virtual earth & yahoo are mostly unusable outside outside from the most major areas15:24
DocScrutinizer05Pali: don't start talking silly! You said your patch is meant to change $HOME now, while formerly `sudo gainroot` doesn't. That sure as hell will break things15:24
Estel_Pali,  maybe cssu-devel is good place to test it?15:24
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Estel_cssu-devel users could then check if, for example, qtmobilehotspot get hit or not15:24
Paliif you call sudo gainroot for gettin "root shell" and then you will call some application which needs to be started as root and that application check "$USER" it will fail15:25
Estel_M4rtinK,  yea15:25
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kerioPali: $USER is not to be relied upon15:25
DocScrutinizer05Pali: that's exactly what it's meant to be15:25
DocScrutinizer05and you MUST NOT change that15:25
CcxCZ_can I use debian repos to install software missing from the maemo ones?15:26
PaliDocScrutinizer05, without my patch some application started from sudo gainroot will not work15:26
DocScrutinizer05so what?15:26
Estel_CcxCZ_,  sure, but most of it wont work ;)15:26
DocScrutinizer05it never did15:26
Paliin root shell you should have correct $HOME and $USER and if not message "root shell" should not be shown to user15:27
DocScrutinizer05but with your patch an app that formerly did a wget to current directory will now wget to root's $home15:27
Paliand gainroot priting message that this *is* root shell - which is not truth15:27
Estel_M4rtinK,  strange, now my modrana stopped working alltogether15:27
Estel_i.e. it loads15:27
Estel_but it doesn't see any layers, at all15:27
Estel_as available15:27
PaliDocScrutinizer05, sudo gainroot chaning PWD to /root15:27
Estel_only "empty layer"15:28
Palisu doing it too15:28
DocScrutinizer05Pali: again, and last time, if that message bugs you so much, remove it!15:28
Estel_config file looks ok... well, maybe I deleted some " unnecessary15:28
Estel_yea, silly me, it was just typo15:28
PaliDocScrutinizer05, you did not show me any possible situation when some application could be broken after change15:29
Estel_sorry, I'm quite new to mess with modrana internals15:29
Paliand I see couple of situation when root applications will not work in shell spawned by gainroot15:29
DocScrutinizer05~ $ id15:30
DocScrutinizer05uid=29999(user) gid=29999(users)15:30
DocScrutinizer05~ $ echo $HOME15:30
DocScrutinizer05~ $ pwd15:31
DocScrutinizer05~ $ sudo gainroot15:31
DocScrutinizer05Root shell enabled15:31
DocScrutinizer05BusyBox v1.10.2 (Debian built-in shell (ash)15:31
DocScrutinizer05Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.15:31
DocScrutinizer05/home/user # echo $HOME15:31
DocScrutinizer05/home/user # pwd15:31
keriodat paste15:31
DocScrutinizer05since I'm fed up with it15:31
DocScrutinizer05[2013-01-26 14:27:57] <Pali> DocScrutinizer05, sudo gainroot chaning PWD to /root15:32
DocScrutinizer05Pali: NO it's NOT15:32
DocScrutinizer05and you'll BREAK THINGS if you change that15:32
Estel_M4rtinK,  I can confirm, that google overlay sa15:33
Estel_started working for me only *after* changing it15:33
Estel_from "mt1" to "mts1"15:33
Estel_in map_config file15:33 seems to be required one, currently. No idea how it could work for you with old address15:34
M4rtinKEstel_: ok, noted :)15:34
M4rtinKEstel_: maybe also try some geographically distinct areas ?15:35
Estel_tried that15:35
Estel_I'm sure i was never in africa from modrana15:35
Estel_at zoom 16 :P15:35
M4rtinKEstel_: hh15:35
Estel_M4rtinK,  depending on zoom, address change from, to (for closer looks)15:37
Estel_isnt it problem?15:37
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DocScrutinizer05(([2013-01-26 14:29:55] <Pali> and I see couple of situation when root applications will not work in shell spawned by gainroot))          then don't use sudo gainroot for those apps. It's not meant to get used this way! And evidently nobody did so far, since... it doen't work. So WTF *is* the bug you're fixing?15:40
M4rtinKEstel_: mts0 & mts1 are IIRC are just mirrors, that enable the javascript in the web map to download multiple times at once15:40
Estel_ah, i though its related to new "angled view" at close zoom15:41
Palisudo gainroot is only way how to get root without any 3rd application15:41
Estel_i.e. fact, that, for web page, it starts showing photos took from angle, not high above, for close zooms15:41
Paliand it not spawn proper root shell, so some root applications will not work here15:41
Estel_interesingly, some other programs still show "straight-down" view for close zooms15:41
M4rtinKEstel_: "Generally several subdomains (server names) are provided to get around browser limitations on the number of simultaneous HTTP connections to each host. Browser-based applications can thus request multiple tiles from multiple subdomains faster than from one subdomain."15:42
Estel_hm, can modrana exploit it too?15:42
M4rtinKEstel_: from
Estel_i.e. use mirrors, to go around risk of autoban?15:42
Estel_instead of pulling dozens from one mirror, pull some from mts0, 1, 2, 3...15:43
M4rtinKmodRana already downloads multiple tiles at once15:43
M4rtinKthe question is if it makes a difference15:43
Estel_but from same mirror? or not15:43
Estel_well, if my browser doesnt get banned so quickly using mirrors...15:43
M4rtinKif the mirrors share accounting15:43
Estel_even if I hover like mad15:43
M4rtinKyeah, good point15:44
Estel_but maybe google uses it to pinpoint "illegal" apps?15:44
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M4rtinKmight be also sue to user-agent though15:44
Estel_if something download many tiles at once from one mirror, it's suspicious15:44
Estel_and most likely, app15:44
Estel_well, we can use chrome user agent :P15:44
Estel_I always wondered ahy I can, very quickly, hover above whole city in close zoom and download hundreds of tiles in browser...15:45
Estel_but in modrana, I get banned quickly15:45
Estel_maybe user customizable user agents + using mirrors is a way to go to avoid limits15:45
Estel_after all, everyone is free to user any useragent she(e want, it isn't patented (yet)15:45
Estel_and mirrors are publicly available. +, it's user responsibility, is he uses google sat map outside eula... BTW, in Pland, google eula for maps isn't ever legal15:46
M4rtinKEstel_: most EULAs aren't :)15:46
teotwaki_Yes, because going around the technological limitations that people set up so you wouldn't abuse them is so "ethical".15:46
Estel_my ethic doesn hurt when i use google map from fast modrana, instead from clunky user interface15:47
Estel_of browser15:47
M4rtinKyou can experiment with the user-agent here:
Estel_thanks :)15:47
teotwaki_This is pretty much like the idiots who thought they could use our API for free. We had setup a reasonable limit of x API calls per day, per IP.15:48
Estel_teotwaki_,  it isn't about abusing, it's about forcing to use browser over app, to get same results15:48
Estel_well, it's not api, that we're talking about15:48
teotwaki_Some company tried to use our API for profit, but didn't want to pay, so they started setting up multiple servers they could use our API from.15:48
Estel_anyway, call me evil, but I won't shed a single tear about google being not able to force browser usage on me15:49
Estel_for getting same results15:49
teotwaki_(to get around the API calls limit)15:49
Estel_well, you could write more security... or go FOSS way :)15:49
M4rtinKEstel_: or better here:
teotwaki_They were very quick to subscribe and use a single IP when I added a data randomizer for all of their requests :)15:50
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Estel_sounds fun. Problem with google is that they don't give a shit about ammount of data used15:50
M4rtinKmodRana is not a commercial application & users are free to use it how they like :)15:51
Estel_they just want to enforce to know everything about user using it15:51
teotwaki_Estel_: we are FOSS. Our whole API software is dual licensed GPL, with the libraries under LGPL :)15:51
Estel_M4rtinK,  excuse my noobines, but this is drop-in replacement for python file, or I have to do something else before using it?15:51
Estel_teotwaki_,  then why on earth they tried to abuse?15:52
M4rtinKBTW, that is why OSM based routing is so important15:52
M4rtinKas Google can log your routing requests15:52
kerioEstel_: because they're idiots15:52
teotwaki_Estel_: because the API is FOSS, our infrastructure that gives you access to placing millions of phone calls isn't :)15:52
M4rtinKstill it is much harder from modRana than from a browser15:52
Estel_teotwaki_,  well, but api allowed to do some free requests to everyone, yep?15:53
M4rtinKEstel_: just edit /opt/modrana/core/ :)15:53
teotwaki_Everyone with an account, yes.15:53
Estel_M4rtinK,  thats what I thought, just wanted to be sure15:53
Estel_teotwaki_,  then hunting abusers is part of fun15:54
teotwaki_Oh it definitely is15:54
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teotwaki_We operate call centre solutions, recently, I've been tasked to down call centre agents who place personal calls on their work time :)15:54
Estel_but i hope you see distinct difference between modrana accessing data exactly the same way any browser is able too (you can even call modrana browser with strange features, like voice nav) and your case15:55
teotwaki_Estel_: I do, no worries :)15:55
xesit's me ...or talk.m.o is progressively slowing down?15:55
teotwaki_track down**15:55
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teotwaki_I don't "down" agents, whatever that may mean.15:55
Estel_xes,  everything related to maemo infra is, one way or another15:55
Estel_teotwaki_,  also teach them than "reboot your system" isn't always best first part of conversation with client15:56
Estel_or reboot your router15:57
teotwaki_I don't talk to the agents :)15:57
Estel_just joking ;)15:57
M4rtinKI really hope the Fremantle OBS Pali usually mentions gets resurrected15:57
Estel_its dead?15:57
M4rtinKit works really nice for Harmattan & Mer/Nemo15:57
Estel_I thought it is what maemo repos was heading into15:57
M4rtinKI don't meen the MeeGo COBS15:58
teotwaki_but yeah, I found one guy, working for the (french) government, who spent 300 hours, over the last year, calling friends in the US.15:58
M4rtinKyeah, there was some progress in the summer15:58
M4rtinKbut then everything switched to emergency mode due to the Nokia announcements15:58
M4rtinKI even logged into it once15:58
Estel_well, last time when i checked on late autumn, it was still goal15:59
Estel_well, I've heard that TMO got funny new administrator - lets hope that he will be able to deal with technical issue16:00
M4rtinKI hope it still is once everything is stabilized16:00
Estel_hopefully to the point that he will be too sick with TMO to even think about being trigger-happy again16:00
Estel_well, whatever16:00
Estel_same here, M4rtinK16:01
Estel_autobuilder is enough pita as it is16:01
M4rtinKOBS makes collaboration easy16:04
DocScrutinizer05xes: tmo also slowing down now? LOL, I guess the guys at Nemein will have a very tough weekend16:04
M4rtinKalso for Mer, you can pull packages directly from the SUSE OBS instance (wont directly work for Fremantle though)16:05
xesDocScrutinizer05: yes... slowing down is not a good. You know that usually is just the beginning16:05
DocScrutinizer05hmm,  >>Cpu(s):  5.0%us,  0.8%sy,  0.0%ni, 93.8%id,  0.3%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.2%st <<16:06
DocScrutinizer05and tmo is _not_ behind that friggin firewall/NAT16:06
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DocScrutinizer05it's indeed a tad slow, but that might be some backup via network, or sth16:07
jacekowskiwha sort of FW is it?16:08
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PaliM4rtinK, fremantle cobs is really dead16:13
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keriojacekowski: xen-grid vm16:14
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DocScrutinizer05jacekowski: Endian16:39
keriohm, did we forget to backup the source of the packages in the repos?16:40
DocScrutinizer05I hope not16:40
infoboti guess mirror is
keriooh, it's in source/16:40
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* DocScrutinizer05 starts to feel too sick with post sin this channel to NOT feel trigger-happy16:43
DocScrutinizer05posts in*16:43
Estel_why so, rootsh discussion was better than popcorn16:43
merlin1991kerio: i'm not entirely insane, i did save the sources aswell :D16:43
kerioi remember RMO having the sources in the same place as the .debs but maybe i'm confused16:44
merlin1991kerio: rmo always had the sources in sources/ cssu-thumb has them in place16:45
keriono, i was thinking of the debian repos16:45
Estel_M4rtinK,  I've nuked overlay database which seems like fixed problem I was mentioning earlier. Also, changed useragent to chrome, will report after a week or so if it make me less bannable by google :P,16:47
Estel_can't test right now as I'm already temp banned due to tiles16:47
Estel_thanks for your help and interesting talk!16:47
CcxCZ_is there key combo mapped to esc on N900?16:48
M4rtinKEstel_: thanks - yeah, semi-longterm testing ins the only way to work :)16:49
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jonwilis the wiki still down?16:50
jonwilyep, definatly looks that way to me :)16:52
thedead1440jonwil: same here16:53
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merlin1991CcxCZ_: nope16:57
CcxCZ_how do I play angband then? D:16:59
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CcxCZ_I've found xmodmap, but can't find xev17:00
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teotwaki_anyway, off to shopping, and cooking for 8. What a waste of fucking time.17:10
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Paul1210does phone functions work with an alt os on n900 (like debian / ubuntu with ofono) ?18:06
kerioafaik no18:06
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Paul1210kerio: thanks18:07
CcxCZ_Paul1210: there are some issues with audio quality making it unuseable afaik18:13
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jonwilI suspect the audio quality issues are because the alternative operating systems do not have the relevant Nokia-special PulseAudio algorithms that the stock OS has18:53
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greenbarelis it posible to rum maemo on any of the android tablets19:33
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greenbarelis it posible to run maemo on any of the android tablets?19:36
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Sicelogreenbarel: depends what exactly you mean. Maemo as a whole will not work anywhere else that the NIT it belongs to.19:42
infobotSicelo meant: greenbarel: depends what exactly you mean. Maemo as a whole will not work anywhere else than the NIT it belongs to.19:43
greenbareli think someone ported it to htc hd 2 phone19:45
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greenbarelhere it is19:47
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greenbareli realy like maemo i had n900 but battery life is short, and it is shaped like brick19:48
Sicelomine is not shaped that way.19:49
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, nit is Nokia Internet Tablet19:54
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ShadowJKmy spare N900 has weeklong batterylife :P19:55
* ShadowJK only uses it for calls and alarm clock19:55
greenbarelyes NIT but thats long forgoten project, last device was n919:56
greenbareland it has meego on it19:56
kguisn't it a little inconvenient to have several devices for daily usage?19:57
greenbareln900 with 1.5 cm i think is the thickest phone19:57
greenbareli just have pc and phone19:58
greenbareland i am looking for some tablets and i am interested in buying some if i can install maemo on it19:58
kguwas thinking about ShadowJK's usage :)19:58
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greenbarelbtw have anyone here experience with metasploit and armitage i am having some dificulties with it20:01
* Sicelo wouldn't be surprised is that HTC+Maemo video is bogus. I haven't viewed it btw20:02
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greenbareli read it but idk about it, htc hd is capable of running lots of mobile os idk why could't run maemoo20:03
keriothe colors are all weird20:03
kerioi bet it's vnc20:03
kerio"This video is a Dramatization of what it could be like."20:04
keriodo you want to know why it couldn't run maemo?20:06
infobotsomebody said closed was or
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xes_..vnc is painting the screen from the upside to downside, the screen locker is something not part of maemo..20:10
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ShadowJKkgu, just that the spare device is usually on desk and main device is in pocket, so I usually pick up the spare one when someone calls20:22
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ShadowJK(all my phones have the same phone number associated)20:23
kguShadowJK: So all of them ring, when someone calls?20:26
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futpibwhat is the second one?20:28
* ShadowJK has 2 N90020:28
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ShadowJKin use20:28
ShadowJKhot spare :s20:28
futpibyou mad20:29
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keriono, u mad20:30
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futpibi mean in good way20:33
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ShadowJK4 N900, 1 N800, 1 N810, 1 Nokia E75, 1 Nokia E70, 1 Asus Transformer tf70020:42
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Estel_8 N90020:42
Estel_beat that20:42
Estel_although they're mobile in a specific way20:43
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Estel_most of them sold when good buyer found20:43
Estel_and new ones bought20:43
Estel_2 of them are dead, part donors20:43
Estel_oh, sorry, 3 of them are dead20:43
Estel_(but with good screen module, 2 of them perfect, 1 quite scratched)20:43
Estel_one main + one backup20:44
Estel_+ 3 rotating, i.e. sold and bought20:44
kguhow much is a new screen?20:44
Estel_so their number varies20:44
Estel_it depends, most of the time you find chinese replacement with varying quality20:44
Estel_some really suxx. I keep original ones20:45
Estel_also define screen20:45
Estel_lcd module?20:45
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Estel_or whole screen module, including slider?20:45
kguthe upper scratcy part :)20:45
Estel_well, you may fin original for quite cheap, but it's quite impossible to find ones without scratches20:46
Estel_most of them have one or two big ones20:46
Estel_perfectly new are, usually, replacements20:46
Estel_some work as well as original, reportedly, and some are worse than digitizers of pda's from pre 200020:46
kguyeah, mine has areas where the protection has gone20:47
Estel_(digitizer, in case someone is not aware, also work as input device for touch)20:47
Estel_hm, I always use protecting foils20:47
Estel_just replace them if got scratched too much20:47
kguyeah, I know. too late now..20:48
Estel_interestingly enough, I replaced mine only once. found el-cheapo brand that makes really durable ones20:48
Estel_wanna buy new digitizer for 50 euro? :P20:48
kgudream on ;)20:49
Estel_seriously, I just thought about price that would convince me to spare my original replacements in perfect condition20:50
Estel_you never know when you may be in need of using them, so I keep it20:50
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Estel_well, vi____ pays more, reportedly, as he is buying original parts from Nokia care including freplace, but *not* allowing them to replace it20:51
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Estel_preffering to replace it on his own, instead of giving morons at nokia ocymoron care chance to touch and break something20:51
Estel_sounds like rip off, but he seems happy20:52
Estel_I got problem for maemo sound system gurus20:53
kerioEstel_: there's that dude on tmo with like 5 n950s20:53
keriohe pwns you pretty hard20:53
kguCan it really be a $7 buy on ebay, what's the scam?
Estel_kerio,  not likely20:53
Estel_as in additiion to  N900's i have N950 too :P20:53
keriohow many?20:53
Estel_one is enough, you don't want them to start reproducing20:53
Estel_btw, he have uncle in R&D, or what?20:54
Estel_kgu,  it may be real, but crappy quality probably20:54
Estel_dr_frost_dk bought one of those once20:54
Estel_they work, but very, very poorly20:54
Estel_BTW, how much is N950 sold nowadays?20:54
kguwonder if you can buy digitizer directly from nokia20:55
Estel_I'm buying new house and need to check if selling one device is enough already :P20:55
Estel_Nokia could give last breath, at last20:55
Estel_it would then be quicker to become cult collector device20:55
Estel_last good product of nokia20:56
Estel_last good product of first mobile phone company20:56
Estel_in 30 years tech collectors will get orgasm just by seeing one20:56
Estel_~450 available in world20:56
Estel_enough joking20:57
Estel_Me got dillema, as said, for audio gurus20:57
Estel_while using bluetooth adaptor...20:57
Estel_I can put normal headphones into jack too, and radio works20:57
Estel_but, fm radio works only on those wired headset or speakers20:57
Estel_I wan't it to forward music via bluetooth at the same time. Doable?20:58
Estel_via some fancy alsa mixer settings?20:58
Estel_or won't work, as when bluetooth is in fm mode, it won't work with bluetooth headset?20:58
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nox-fm radio needs an antenna which the headphone cable doubles as...20:58
Estel_thats why i said bluetooth headset & wired one connected20:59
Estel_at the same time20:59
nox-dunno then20:59
Estel_actually, I'll check if it plays radio at all with bluetooth headset paired, via anything...20:59
Estel_if yes, it should be 100% doable20:59
Sicelobtw, CFM Radio works even without earphones, of course, mostly a hiss20:59
Estel_well, we need to spank javispedro21:00
Estel_he got finished version, that allow to listen to radio without cpu used21:00
ShadowJKHm, is fmradio connected analogically to sound mixer?21:00
Estel_analog passthrough21:00
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Estel_but only unreleased version of javispedro's radio uses this feature21:01
Estel_other things use digital21:01
Estel_digital should be able to send via bluetooth21:01
Estel_as it goes through cpu21:01
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RST38hMeanwhile: Unemployed Chinese Graduates Say No Thanks To Factory Jobs21:08
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kguWill ubuntu on the n900 be able to handle calls and sms?21:13
Sicelonot yet21:14
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Sicelosms should actually already work21:14
kguhope that ubuntu giving effort on the smartphone market will have good sideeffect on a working ubuntu on n900 :)21:16
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keriovi____: *poke*21:23
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DocScrutinizer05buntkuh on N900? i'm not sure whom I hate more, Canonical or Google. So probably I might rather switch to nitfroid than to buntkuh21:31
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cehtehbut wasnt harmattan all Kuh-Tee based? :)21:36
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keriobtw, sygic is kinda open to download from the mirrors21:47
keriooh, it's open to downloads from the officila mirror too21:49
ShadowJKofficial mirror?21:49
kerioer, from the official repo21:50
keriothat is, ovi21:50
kerioit makes little sense, i thought it wasn't freeware21:51
ShadowJKYeah you get unlock code when you buy it, changes it from demo to full21:51
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ShadowJKthis sandisk mobile ultra card is shit22:02
ShadowJK6M seq write22:03
ShadowJKclass 10 / uhs-i22:03
cehtehpossibly not configured/recognized correctly22:03
cehtehsd is a pain with all its modes and configuration parameters22:04
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Gh0stysandisk sucks on usb sticks ... no surprise SD cards are the same :p22:05
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kerioexcept that sandisk sds are the only good ones22:05
Gh0stykingstons work ok22:05
ShadowJKWell also its cpu owuld be running slower when not in a uhs host22:05
ShadowJKkingstons are the worst :-)22:06
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jacekowskii've got patriot EP pro in my dslr and so far it's faster than sandisk22:07
ShadowJKwell any random crap is fast in cameras and similar workloads22:08
jacekowskinot really22:09
ShadowJKI wonder if this card needs a offset22:09
cehtehkingston does not produce sd-cards .. they just brand them22:09
ShadowJKalignment offset22:09
jacekowskii've tested a lot of cards22:09
kerioShadowJK: skip the hyper-optimized space for vfat22:09
jacekowskisandisk, lexar, kingston, patriot, samsung22:09
cehtehand sandisk has the best controlers, but linux is often a bit flacky, especially with older kernels and new cards22:10
jacekowskiand few others22:10
jacekowskiand i could measure a difference22:10
ShadowJKwith kingston you almost never get kingston.. they're mostly a rebranding shop22:10
jacekowskiand patriot is the best so far22:10
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cehtehthere are only 3 or 4 producers .. sandisk, samsung, micron .. any else i cant rememnber?22:11
cehtehfor flash and controlers22:12
ShadowJKhm, it seems to be doing pretty well my cardkiller test22:12
ShadowJKwrite block at pos x, write block at pos x+512b22:13
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ShadowJK4 threads doing that22:13
ShadowJKSamsung Essential I tested earlier gave about 100 kbytes/sec22:13
ShadowJKlooks like about 4M/sec on this sandisk22:14
ShadowJKworst I've seen was a Kingston at about 20 kilobytes/sec22:14
Aoyagiv seen?22:14
cehtehsandisk is known to perform very well on concurrent/random access22:15
AoyagiHm... sneaky "v"...22:15
cehtehand class ratings dont help you for smartphone like usage patterns ..22:15
jacekowskicehteh: intel, toshiba22:16
jacekowskicehteh: SMC22:16
ShadowJKcehteh; more recent ones aren't nearly as good as 2009 sandisk class 4 :-(22:16
cehtehintel produces flash chips .. but iirc they dont sell to/for SD card producers22:16
ShadowJKTLC and 6-12 megabyte block sizes nowadays :(22:16
ShadowJKit's all about the controller anyway :)22:17
cehtehyes i have a old class 4 sandisk in my n900 and it performs very well22:17
ShadowJKbunny had decapped a samsung card and it looked like it had a massive arm cpu in it :)22:17
kerioi still want a ram-based uSD :c22:17
ShadowJKso i was hoping for better perf from the samsungs22:17
ShadowJKbut they've probably changed them22:17
ShadowJKSandisk has a thing where they can treat part of flash as SLC and the rest as MLC, allegedly some of their cards have slc cache for small random writes22:19
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ShadowJKI finally found a place selling Samsung "Pro" card that freemangordon said was good.. costs like 80euro though :s22:24
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CcxCZ_what package should I install to be able to compile stuff?22:28
kerioCcxCZ_: on device?22:28
keriocan't do that in any meaningful way22:28
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keriothe toolchain is too big22:28
ShadowJKlooks like a minimal write size of 64k or 128k..22:29
chem|sttmo down for maintenance back at 9pm22:30
ShadowJKkerio; get a microsd card, format it ext3, copy / to it, chroot into microsd card, apt-get install build-essential...22:30
CcxCZ_I used to compile dwm and urxvt on my G1...22:30
kerioShadowJK: meh22:30
ShadowJKthe stuff in sdk and sdk/tools otherwise is installed on / which is just 256M22:31
kerioyou can also do ~m32g22:31
ShadowJK/home also doesn't have all that much space for all the random -dev crap :-)22:31
kerioDocScrutinizer05: infobot is AWOL22:31
CcxCZ_there's one partitioned nand inside and a mmc or sd card and no easy way to plug in other storage, am I correct?22:36
ShadowJKonenand 256M, emmc 32g (vfat, 2g ext3 /home, 768M swap), empty MicroSDHC slot22:38
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ShadowJKalso, fstab is a lie, dont try edit it. :-)22:40
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keriounless you're a serious person who disabled the fstab generation22:44
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* CcxCZ_ wonders if he could run new enough kernel to have btrfs spanning both mmc and sd22:49
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CcxCZ_kerio: I'm quite serious at trimming nonsense, but I haven't had time to delve that deep in the two days I have this device :-)22:52
ShadowJKbeware that mmc drivers get loaded pretty late during boot :)22:53
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CcxCZ_where I can see details on what gets mounted? I think the best approach for now is shrinking the vfat and putting gentoo chroot on separate partition there23:00
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SiceloCcxCZ_: 'mount' should show you what mounts where23:04
ShadowJKit's done by a series of scripts in /etc/event.d and rc.d, calling other scripts23:05
CcxCZ_just shrinking vfat and extending ext3 is safe?23:05
Sicelohmm, ext3?23:07
Sicelousually people extender /home, or create new partitions in the free space23:08
CcxCZ_yes, by ext3 I meant /home23:08
* ShadowJK 'd just use a uSD :D23:10
CcxCZ_I'd rather have system on mmc and data on sd, but alas I do lack a suitable sdcard anyway23:12
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keriooh, the wiki is back23:42
kerioand garage too23:42
keriomain site still 50323:42
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