IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2013-01-05

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ShadowJKLooks like I'll have to build myself a gaming PC next year-ish :)01:48
ShadowJKElite:dangerous getting kickstarter funded01:48
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merlin1991just take nvidia over amd01:59
merlin1991then you don't run into as many driver problems :D01:59
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pewter_taoyou guys checkout the nexus4?02:01
pewter_taoI'm curious about your guys' secondary uses for the n900 now that it's not a phone for you02:01
ShadowJKnexus4 would be cool with a hwkbd :/02:02
ShadowJKat 550E, I'd rather wait and see if jolla comes with something interesting02:03
ShadowJKmeanwhile I'm still using N90002:03
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pewter_taoShadowJK: yeah, I've the same issue w/ no HW keyboards... It'll be my first touch keyboard02:09
pewter_taoI gotta at least try it02:09
pewter_taoShadowJK: any word of jolla?02:09
pewter_taoIt would be nice if they gave us some specific hope02:09
pewter_taoso we could help them popularize and everything02:09
pewter_taothere's also the new ubuntu stuff02:10
pewter_taothey'll be using regular android hardware for the forseeable future, supposedly02:10
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jonwilIts a pitty the few phones out there in the market that have hardware keyboards suck in other ways02:15
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jonwilMotorola has produced a number of GSM Android phones with hardware keyboards02:16
jonwilbut they are all locked down tight and you cant run alternate OSs on them02:16
ShadowJKSony too, but they only put real kbd on their shit-end androids with 320x200 screens etc02:17
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jonwilThe HTC 7 pro would be nice if it wasnt for the crappy OS02:18
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jonwilI suspect it will be a very long time before any manufacturer produces a phone with a physical keyboard that is anywhere near as good as the N90002:21
SkryI'm suspecting the very same02:22
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qwazixLooking through those images it seems the companies think that the hwkb is only for geeks without a sense of beauty or sth02:31
qwazixexcept the MotoDroids that is...02:31
jonwil99.999% of those phones are obsolete or running on obsolete crappy hardware02:33
qwazixor have ugly dpads or stupid soft-buttons on the front02:34
ShadowJK95% were obsolete when their spec was decided02:34
qwazixor 2x2px screens02:34
qwazixI think that whoever does a high end beautiful qwerty phone today with a 4+ screen will carve market share for years to come02:37
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qwazixBecause I know nobody, geek or not, who used a good hwkb and wants to go back02:37
qwazixBut even I wouldn't buy anything available to buy today with a hwkb. So companies fool themselves that there is no market02:38
pewter_taoqwazix: you mean who doesn't want to go back, right?02:39
pewter_taoI don't think ubuntu will consider making their own hardware, but they should02:39
qwazixbecause their crappy qwerty *of course* don't sell02:39
qwazixpewter_tao, I'm not good at those double negative things as in different languages mean different things02:39
qwazixbut I mean that everybody I know that's been using hwkb wants to keep using hwkb02:40
qwazixah, ok now I get why I was not clear. I meant "I know nobody, geek or not, who used a good hwkb and wants to go back to pure touchscreen"02:41
qwazixwhich probably doesn't make much sense...02:41
jonwilI think if you took a phone like the Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy S2 or Galaxy S3 and added a good hardware keyboard, it could well become the greatest phone ever made.02:43
pewter_taoqwazix: now that made sense02:43
qwazixGalaxy Note ftw. Fits a 104key qwerty :P02:44
pewter_taojonwil: the bigger the screen, the more oddly a HW keyboard will make the bezel shape02:44
XenonXZimho, n900 with a gig of ram and quad cpu02:44
XenonXZthats a perfect phone :-)02:44
pewter_taoXenonXZ: yeah, why isn't anyway soldering new CPUs to the n900 board?02:44
pewter_taoI feel like we only need 20 people who want this and we can spec one together, get some biz dev people, and make a fucking company02:45
pewter_taoI'll make a "let's start a cell phone company website" and you guys can popularize it on maemo forum...02:45
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DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: elite-what? bell and braben?02:52
ShadowJKBraben is doing a Elite 4 :)02:52
DocScrutinizer05Braben, the last real coder02:53
DocScrutinizer05or was it Bell?02:53
ShadowJKBell is the harecore mathematician02:54
DocScrutinizer05I even forgot how many million assembler lines elite been02:54
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ShadowJKPeople who reverse engineered 2 and 3 found many bugs in "simple" things like the 64 bit multiply function02:54
ShadowJKWell the original fit in 22k ram02:55
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Skrydamn new elite, forcing me to buy new hardware02:56
jonwilI recon the best hope for a decent phone with a hw keyboard is if the GTA04 people ever get to the point that they can afford to do one...02:56
jonwilThe hardware of the N900 is starting to look a bit dated (and if it was possible to upgrade the parts in the N900 with new ones someone would have found out how to do it by now)02:57
XenonXZStill love my N900 even if it is dated02:58
jonwilyes me too02:58
jonwilThe only way I will give up the N900 is if it breaks and cant be fixed anymore02:59
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; elite 2 Atari version approximately 600,000 lines of asm02:59
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ShadowJK anyway03:02
wirrShadowJK, thanks four your links - I wont be able to run the tests today but i'll be back tomorrow03:03
ShadowJKwirr: sure :)03:05
Hurrianjonwil, uhh, that's if the GTA04 devs figure out power management03:06
HurrianI had a Freerunner, and it simply pales in comparison to what the N900 can do03:07
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XenonXZnn all03:07
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jonwilWhat makes power management so hard? I thought it was all done by the kernel on a modern Linux setup03:11
jonwilAlthough I guess the real issue (battery life) is all to do with optimizing the whole system to run better03:11
ShadowJKHave you use hibernate/suspend-to-disk and/or suspend-to-ram on  a linux machine?03:13
jonwilnope I haven't03:14
ShadowJKAh well, N900 does suspend-to-ram seamlessly, even when screen is on03:14
ShadowJKGetting linux kernel to run on a cpu is much easier than getting it to shut down the cpu and wake it up again reliably03:15
Hurrianjonwil: last I heard the wifi module sucked an unholy amount of power for piss range.03:15
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ShadowJKWithout the DVFS, and the sleep modes, N900 idle batterylife would be 5 hours instead of the actual 10-11 days (radios off, screen off, etc)03:17
HurrianShadowJK, and while in use, 30 minutes.03:17
Hurrian(this can be demonstrated by booting Debian with the Nemo adaptation kernel)03:17
ShadowJK30m is impossible :)03:18
HurrianIIRC Stskeeps said that even with some original RX-51 team members working on MeeGo for the N900, they still couldn't make MeeGo run on the same power envelope as Fremantle03:18
Hurrianso yes, embedded power management is hard.03:19
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jonwilI am guessing that even if you have the same hardware its not just a case of "hey, xyz has already written power management code for our SoC, lets pinch theirs"03:21
ShadowJKI suspect omap3 is the only cpu with proper-ish power management code03:22
ShadowJKThe original OLPC had similar abilities, they had to completely ditch the bios and rewrite from scratch to accomplish it :)03:24
jonwiland yeah if the MeeGo guys couldn't match Fremantle for power management when they were using identical hardware and much the same kernel and userspace bits (dsme, mce, bme etc) I dont think the GTA04 guys have a chance03:24
jonwilBe interesting to see some hard numbers comparing the power management/battery life profile of an N900 with stock Fremantle and a N900 with Pali's BME replacement work, see how the new stuff affects battery life03:26
ShadowJKNot significantly03:27
ShadowJKI've been running my own for years03:27
ShadowJKperhaps only difference is that bme shuts down earlier to avoid suddenly running out of power and the potential filesystem corruption from that03:28
jonwilI do wonder which bits of the system are the ones causing MeeGo-on-N900 to have a worse power envelope than Fremantle. Or maybe its just that userspace programs (GUI, apps etc) aren't as well written for MeeGo as they were for Fremantle and therefore use more juice...03:29
ShadowJKI remember DocScrutinizer bitching about the sensor framework atleast03:30
DocScrutinizer05qtm and sensorfw all based on polling rather than IRQ event driven03:31
jonwilWhat bit of phone handles sensor framework on Fremantle?03:31
ShadowJKlet's take an example of fremantle and idle N900: 11 days life. fremantle otherwise idle, but following script running: "while true; do sleep 5 ; done": 4 days life.03:31
DocScrutinizer05a sane design decision for all sorts of devices with different sensors that not always have IRQ, but all the devices have lots of battery power or even PSU03:32
ShadowJKSo if you've got 4 random things polling accelerometer, proximity, camera door, etc, even with half-minute poll interval you've just dropped idle life to four times less03:32
ApicI wish there was a Compass03:33
ApicMy G1 had one, but I threw it away in a psychotic Episode.03:33
ShadowJKthe compass in my android tablet is about as useful and accurate as a Ouija board03:34
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: (which bit of sw) depends, some is done by mce, some by liblocation, some by libisi, etc pp03:35
DocScrutinizer05and quite some of them are also not as strictly event driven as they should be03:35
DocScrutinizer05e.g. accelerometer, it's way better than the one used in mer, but still miles from optimum03:37
Sc0rpiusremember the Ubuntu Phone OS I talked like 2 days ago?03:37
DocScrutinizer05it just doesn't matter that much since they probably poll accelerometer only when screen active03:37
Sc0rpiushere's a demo:
Sc0rpiusit should work on any hardware.03:38
Sc0rpiusI think it really looks gorgeous03:38
Sc0rpiuswe should work in porting that to the N900!03:38
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ShadowJK"any hardware" is kinda...03:39
DocScrutinizer05not sure if I should post *yawn* now, or get me a coffee prior to clicking that link03:39
ShadowJKin practice it's like N900 and Google Nexus*, right03:40
Sc0rpiusit's just 2 minutes Doc03:40
ShadowJKand N900 is underpowered03:40
Sc0rpiusthis is 100% Ubuntu no java / dalvik (Android) crap inside03:40
Sc0rpiusjust like Maemo, if it runs Maemo, why not Ubuntu phone?03:40
ShadowJKthe only major thing hardware-wise is that they've made ubuntu run on android kernel instead of needing linux kernel03:41
DocScrutinizer05well, because I hate buntkuh, maybe?03:41
Sc0rpiusyou hate Ubuntu?03:42
Sc0rpiuswow that's weird, aren't you a Debian guy?03:42
Sc0rpiusor are you a Fedora/Red Hat (RPM) guy?03:42
DocScrutinizer05so what? canonical hijacked linux and made it a me-too-windows03:42
infobothmm... buntkuh is ... Redmond, or
ShadowJKandroid has a "force everything to sleep" thing going on for power saving, so I imagine android kernels aren't that complete and well tweaked for always-on OS :)03:43
Sc0rpiuswho said it kept the Android kernel...03:44
Sc0rpiusthat's a different project called Ubuntu On Android03:44
Sc0rpiusthis is Ubuntu Phone, a complete OS03:44
Sc0rpiusUbuntu Phone <> Ubuntu for Android03:44
Sc0rpiusmy brother has a Samsung Note 10.1 tablet and installed that Ubuntu for Androind and lags like HELL03:45
Sc0rpiusto me, it's unusable.03:45
Sc0rpiusand it's a quad-core tablet with 2 GB of RAM03:46
ShadowJKThe whole point of their "any hw" claim is that they run on existing android kernel of the "any hw", that way they don't have to write device drivers and fight with device vendors03:47
DocScrutinizer05Sc0rpius: I'm a system guy03:47
Sc0rpiusShadowJK, well yeah so far it only works with Nexus because the whole OS is OpenSource and they can grab drivers from there03:48
Sc0rpiusbut that's not the point in the future03:48
DocScrutinizer05Sc0rpius: ...and i'm kinda oldfashioned, so I hate to find upstart on a friend's buntkuh box when he asks for help, while *all* by boxes have proper sysV-init, and I don't see *any* advantage of that new crap03:48
Sc0rpiusyou're a Slackware guy.03:48
DocScrutinizer05the I hate gnome03:48
Sc0rpiusthat's normal in experienced Linux users.  Most people install Xubuntu (no Unity, no Gnome) with Xfce03:49
ShadowJKSc0rpius; I'm pretty sure the graphics drivers are blobs even on nexus? :)03:49
DocScrutinizer05and generally I hate that windowsy philosophy in ubuntu03:49
Sc0rpiusso you like your several terminal open and nothing else hehehe03:50
Skryseveral terminals and a browser03:50
DocScrutinizer05while I've always been proud of my linux systems being *ahead* of any windows desktop usability wise, ubuntu tries to mimic windows as much as they can03:51
Sc0rpiusGUI is great.03:51
jogaI install plain ubuntu but never ever use the default desktop03:51
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer05, uuhhh?03:51
DocScrutinizer05wizards are da shite though03:51
GeneralAntillesUnity is not a mimicry of Windows.03:51
Sc0rpiusUbuntu GUI (with Xfce or LXDE) is great03:51
Sc0rpiusUnity is very bad but there are several options03:52
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Skrycanonical, red hat, all the same crap, different package (manager)03:52
jogaI use mostly: notion lxdm uzbl mupdf wicd03:52
jogathen it doesn't matter if the ubuntu machine has 32MB of ram03:53
DocScrutinizer05i'd not even be astonished if ubuntu came with double-click to launch, by default03:53
Sc0rpiusI use LXDE in my netbook, it's extremely light03:53
Sc0rpiusbut Xfce in this desktop03:54
ApicLXDE rules, especially OpenBox03:54
joganot light and usable enough imo :p03:54
Sc0rpiusactually this is a Xubuntu running in VMWare full screen in a 2nd monitor, my host is Windows 8.03:54
Sc0rpiusI have to have both worlds at the same time.03:54
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer05; seems like they have voice to launch now03:54
ShadowJK(say app name to start it)03:54
Sc0rpiusthat's nice03:54
jogauntil you launch porn03:55
ShadowJKif it's like iphone or android's voice recog, it's about as useful as a random number generator03:55
ApicI tried "FNORD" with Android. Worked grate!03:55
ApicI literally screamed03:55
ApicLike a Madman03:55
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: I bet in 6 months they have tiles, like windows803:57
Sc0rpiusI hope so!03:58
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* DocScrutinizer05 too03:58
DocScrutinizer05might finally kill them03:58
Sc0rpiusyou already can take the labels out in the taskbar and leave only the icons just like W703:58
Sc0rpiusand you can, already, group Windows in the taskbar as well03:58
Sc0rpiusat least in my Xfce that I'm using right now03:59
Sc0rpiusI can't tile windows though03:59
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newbie007greetings, I'm trying to preform a apt-get update on my n900 and getting an error "GPG Error url... KEYEXPIRED" anyone know anything about this?08:11
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Snafu777Does removing hildon-application-manager fix the issues with setting a static /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list08:55
Sicelonewbie007: yes. it's a known issue. you can safely ignore it08:56
Snafu777Anyone know?08:58
newbie007Sicelo: but it prevents me from updating..08:59
Sicelonewbie007: i believe it doesn't. that error has been around for quite some time now, but we've been able to update. are you sure you don't have other problems?09:12
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SiceloSnafu777: i don't know. i don't even know what you mean by 'static'09:13
Siceloin any case, you shouldn't be able to remove HAM. you can try to reinstall it (apt-get install --reinstall ...)09:15
Snafu777it sucks and its slow09:16
Snafu777i user faster application manager09:16
SiceloHAM is slow, but your FAM can kill your system.09:16
Siceloleave HAM alone. maybe ccsu will eventually make it suck less09:18
Snafu777i just wanted to remove it in hopes that it doesnt mess with my sources list09:19
Snafu777how can FAM kill the system?09:19
Snafu777because by default, it will overwrite my sources list09:20
Snafu777But Sicelo, I would be very interested to know why it would kill the system?09:20
Siceloyou can't remove HAM. you can't even remove games :P09:20
Snafu777i did09:20
Snafu777apt-get purge09:20
Snafu777and u can remove games dude =)09:20
SiceloImpressive. Anyway, removing HAM is a questionable thing to do.09:23
Snafu777Not following?09:23
Snafu777its a shitty application GUI, and it affects my sources list09:23
Snafu777it tries to autoupdate09:23
Snafu777the scum who invented it should be shot and hung and disemboweled09:24
Snafu777by why do u say it should not be removed?  whats yer basis?09:24
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Siceloyou can adjust the auto-update period09:25
Snafu777i know09:25
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Snafu777but its still affected (sources list) by ham09:25
Snafu777which is BS09:25
Snafu777a gui should not modify a file without permission09:25
Snafu777But why do u say removing it would break the system?09:25
Siceloi didn't. i said it's questionable.09:26
Snafu777I don't agree man =)  I appreciate the "advice" but its questionable advice at best, you can't tell somebody they shouldnt do something with a computer if u dont have a reasoning to back it up, that's never a good way to give advice09:27
Snafu777U also said FAM can kill my system, why"09:28
Siceloit has done that for other people. check the logs for this channel, and possibly TMO09:29
* Snafu777 <~~~ All about making the N900 a pentest device in my pocket09:30
Siceloin any case, i suppose i'm unable to help with your particular case.09:30
Snafu777No worries, I appreciate the advice anyways man =)09:31
Snafu777So do u do any hacking with yer N900 ?09:31
Sicelopentesting? no09:31
Snafu777Aw, yer missing out =)09:32
Snafu777Its a heckuva system to do it from09:32
Snafu777Just needs some tweaks and its perfect09:32
Snafu777I can even use rj-45 on mine =)09:32
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Siceloi know. i do use USB-host.09:32
Siceloand i even boot debian wheezy on it09:32
Snafu777Chuck Norris has an Intel CPU on an AMD motherboard.09:45
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Snafu777Sicelo: You were somewhat right my friend10:48
Snafu777It doesnt break the system10:48
Snafu777removing HAM10:48
Snafu777but it prevents installation of certain packages via the missing of files10:48
Snafu777Fixable?  Yes....  Worth it, No......10:49
Snafu777How do we get around HAM's bullshit...10:49
Snafu777That is the question10:49
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Snafu777That file gets overwritten from time to time10:50
Snafu777Does anyone on here know how to prevent that?10:50
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kerioSnafu777: it's not a file you're supposed to edit manually11:25
keriomake your own file in the same directory11:25
kerioor use /etc/apt/sources.list11:25
kerioHAM will pick up the repos in those files (and won't change them)11:26
infobot[fapman] Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever11:26
kerioit doesn't run the pre/post scripts correctly, as fas as i could see11:27
Snafu777so i can drop /etc/apt/sources.list11:27
Snafu777but will apt-get still use whats in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*11:27
Snafu777Basically here is what I am trying to do11:28
Snafu777Trim some fat off the stock OS11:28
Snafu777HAM sucks, cuz its a slow GUI11:28
Snafu777I dont use GUIs11:28
Snafu777but people who will use the image i create will11:28
Snafu777therefore i need a nice GUI for them11:28
Snafu777ie... FAM11:28
kerioexcept that11:28
infobot[fapman] Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever11:28
Snafu777but yer telling me it breaks things....  and finally i get a reason why11:29
Snafu777it doesnt process .deb preinst and post inst stuff11:29
infobotbleh means insert appropriate value here. see blah11:29
* Snafu777 hugs infotbot11:29
kerioapt-get and any conforming package manager will use /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*11:29
infobotblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah11:29
kerioand yes, HAM is awful11:30
Snafu777i know about /etc/apt/sources.list, but the people who invented the N900 had some crazy ideas regarding FHS and their implementation thereof11:30
Snafu777256MB nand...and placing / on it11:30
kerioset the autoupdate frequency to a year or so11:30
Snafu777fixed that issue11:30
Snafu777via gconf11:31
kerioSnafu777: rootfs on a 230mb ubifs is fine, if you put usr somewhere else11:31
Snafu777rbinded =)11:31
Snafu777still though11:31
Snafu777shitty implementation11:31
Snafu777mounting /opt to /home/opt, etc..11:31
keriosadly, they fucked that up with the optification11:31
Snafu777Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my n90011:31
Snafu777there is no better handheld pentest device11:32
Snafu777No better11:32
Snafu777Ill bitchslap the fool who says otherwise11:32
Snafu777Im trying to trim some fat =)11:32
* Snafu777 asks for forgiveness, slightly drunk =)11:32
Snafu777Thanks for the why by the way kerio11:32
Snafu777I had input from another user earlier, but they couldnt explain the why part11:32
Snafu777u actually told me why11:32
Snafu777so i appreciate that....11:32
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Snafu777tis good advice, vs, "they heard" from "that dude" who spoke with "that guy" who heard from "this fella"11:33
keriopackages that most definetely fail are, for instance, the various kernel flashers11:33
keriowhich sucks, because you tend to update (correctly) the modules at the same time, and then you reboot11:33
Snafu777i can prolly google myself11:33
Snafu777but can i tell apt-get NOT to look at /etc/apt/sources.list.d?11:34
* Snafu777 <~~~ building a custom image to be distro'd out =)11:34
kerioi suppose there's a way11:34
Snafu777if the user wants to interact with a GUI, cool11:34
Snafu777but apt-get is the way the target audience will react11:34
Snafu777and having the sources overwritten is bullshit11:34
Snafu777or having apt-get look in two places11:35
keriothey won't be overwritten dammit11:35
Snafu777in the n900's case11:35
kerioHAM will write its own file11:35
Snafu777/etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager is definately overwritten11:35
Snafu777and apt-get pulls from that11:35
Snafu777which is why i asked =)11:35
kerioand having multiple files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d is standard, really11:35
Snafu777but writing something that will check for a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* and removing it prior to an apt-get instance is stupid, I want one source for the users11:36
Snafu777prefered to have /etc/apt/sources.list11:36
kerioso disable every catalog in HAM and use sources.list11:36
Snafu777but if apt-get looks in /etc/apt/sources.list.d as well, and i cant permanently delete that location11:36
Snafu777then it fucks me =-)11:36
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Snafu777but then that fucks the user who wants a gui =)11:36
Snafu777I have to satisfy both kerio =)11:37
keriono, HAM will use all the repos11:37
Snafu777but will it not overwrite?11:37
Snafu777via disabling every catalog in ham?11:37
keriohis own repos are editable from HAM and will be written unilaterally to hildon-application-manager.list11:37
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keriothe other repos will appear in the list but won't be editable11:38
Snafu777Tested and tried kerio ?11:38
keriodo your own testing dude11:38
Snafu777i do11:38
Snafu777it seems thats its a random timing for overwriting11:38
Snafu777i cant make it "kick" by opening HAM11:38
Snafu777it just does it11:38
Snafu777of its own accord when it feels like11:39
Snafu777from what ive seen11:39
Snafu777which is why i ask =)11:39
Snafu777i figure its a timer via gconf somewhere11:39
Snafu777something of that nature11:39
kerioham SHALL NOT write to any file other than his11:39
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.11:39
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Snafu777gtfoh infobot...  I like the bot =)11:39
* infobot thinks snafu777 should be slapped11:39
Snafu777uh huh11:39
Snafu777infobot wasnt expecting that one11:40
kerioonce you disable every "catalog" in HAM, his repo file will be empty, just leave it there11:40
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kerioand add your own somewhere else11:40
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Snafu777gotcha man11:41
Snafu777u solved the issue11:41
Snafu777I appreciate it much11:41
* infobot tickles %11:41
kerioit's what scratchbox does, after all11:41
Snafu777never bothered to use scratchbox11:41
Snafu777prefer to dev on the hardware itself via ssh11:42
Snafu777and such..11:42
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Snafu777scratchbox is cool for some implications, but for ideas that revolve around hardware centric stuff (i.e. the wireless chipset) scratchbox cannot work11:42
Snafu777But thank ya kerio11:42
Snafu777You have solved my issue11:43
Snafu777and I appreciate it much =)11:43
Snafu777and ps....  Dont remove HAM =)  It truly breaks shit via: /var/lib/dpkg/ LINE 24 maemo-confirm-text issues11:43
Snafu777~ping google.com11:45
infobotpong google.com11:45
Snafu777~ping configitnow.com11:45
infobotpong configitnow.com11:45
Snafu777i wonder if he does...11:45
* Snafu777 thinks he might could abuse infobot11:45
infobotWatches as any program is installed and turns it into an RPM. URL:
Snafu777okay, sorry for the spam =)11:46
Snafu777ill quit now11:46
ZogG_laptopping Snafu77711:47
ZogG_laptop~ping Snafu77711:47
infobotpong Snafu77711:47
ZogG_laptop~rape Snafu77711:48
* infobot takes Snafu777 behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams11:48
Snafu777~molest ZogG_laptop11:48
Snafu777~slap infobot11:48
* infobot slaps infobot, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!11:48
Snafu777Anyone here use curl on their N900?11:50
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Snafu777~ping Snafu77711:53
infobotpong Snafu77711:53
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ZogG_laptopSnafu777: why do you need to use curl?11:59
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Snafu777curl is a necesarry function bro =-)12:06
Snafu777Its curl12:06
ZogG_laptopi know12:06
ZogG_laptopbut still what do you mean by using it?12:06
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Snafu777Curious if anyone here has curl on their n90012:06
Snafu777It took me a while how to figure out porting it properly to the n90012:06
Snafu777with support for ssl, etc..12:06
Snafu777dloading via the repos, breaks things12:07
Snafu777kinda curious who on here perhaps used it12:07
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Snafu777and if they had ssl support without having apt-get broke12:07
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ZogG_laptopSnafu777: i bet there are already ports of it12:13
Snafu777Not successful ones =)12:13
ZogG_laptopi dunno12:13
Snafu777try =)12:13
Snafu777and then do apt-get update12:13
Snafu777youll see12:13
ZogG_laptopi don't have n900 for a long time now :)12:13
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lufSnafu777: can you please more elaborate what's wrong with curl?12:16
Snafu777Do u use it?12:16
Snafu777The version that supports curl in the repo is very broken12:16
kerioworked for me12:16
Snafu777it destroys apt-get12:16
keriobut maybe the ssl is fucked up?12:16
lufSnafu777: I'm the maintainer ...12:16
Snafu777the version that supports SSL is broke12:16
Snafu777I have a fix for ya12:16
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Snafu777~kill Snafu77713:26
* infobot shoots a excited fluxpositrino gun at Snafu77713:26
infobotCommand-line URL retrieval tool with some unique features.. URL:
infobotsnafu is, like, Situation Normal: All fux0red up. See also fux0red.13:27
* Snafu777 debates about the uses for abusing infobot13:27
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keriothe scriptkiddiness is strong in that one13:42
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kerio[general notice] if you installed the new zlib1g from cssu-devel, make sure you've also installed the latest libxml2 from cssu-devel, or you'll get a bootloop when you reboot13:48
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DocScrutinizer05wow, if I ever done something useful in my life, it seems it's been h-e-n14:51
DocScrutinizer05which same time makes me a tad sad I did give up on henine14:53
DocScrutinizer05[general notice] nobody installs something from cssu-devel14:57
merlin1991hm why that?14:57
DocScrutinizer05hen for N914:57
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: (cssu-devel?) because it's a sure way to break your system14:58
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merlin1991atm it's sorta safe again14:58
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DocScrutinizer05it's like suggesting to camp on the shooting range14:59
merlin1991well it does say that in the description :D14:59
DocScrutinizer05kerio dropped a [general notice] of brilliant nonsense here, that sounds like everybody installs from cssu-devel nowadays. So I had to correct that15:01
DocScrutinizer05emphasis on "here"15:02
DocScrutinizer05this is not even #maemo-ssu!15:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i said *if*15:02
kerioi said *if*!15:02
lufDocScrutinizer05: just masochist tester/devel installs from cssu-devel. But without that people we can't make progress :D For sude don't install from cssu-devel if you don't know what you're doing ;) But noone is too strong.15:04
kerioand system breakages should be reported, even for stuff like cssu-devel15:04
DocScrutinizer05"if you're camping in square C-6 of shooting range, don't forget to also get your kevlar vest"15:04
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keriobecause there was a metadata problem and the C-6 square didn't properly depend on the kevlar vest15:04
keriobreakages are expected, not /deserved/15:05
DocScrutinizer05"oh hey, they even give instructions on HOW to camp there, so it must be safe"15:05
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: I see your intentions, and they are good. You're ignoring the nature of general luser though15:07
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kerio[general notice] if, against everyone's better judgement, you happened to install zlib1g from cssu-devel lately, check that you've also updated libxml2 in the mean time or your n900 will blow up15:09
DocScrutinizer05though I generally tend to just state that users MUST NOT (rfc2119) install XY, and if they already did, please go to #maemo-ssu and ask for help immediately. Installing anything from that repository is generally deprecated for the normal user.15:13
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DocScrutinizer05re >>/deserved/<<: if somebody installs from CSSU-devel but doesn't notice a big fat WARNING on #maemo-ssu, then this luser indeed deserves what he gets15:18
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jadei agree15:18
DocScrutinizer05IOW your [general notice] would be absolutely correct on #maemo-ssu, but here I feel it's more dangerous than helpful15:19
kerio[general notice] if, against everyone's better judgement, you happened to install something from cssu-devel, SUCKS TO BE YOU15:21
keriolike this?15:21
keriosomehow i think it's worse15:22
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Sicelolol you two :p15:25
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, can we use new maemo wiki on new server?15:45
Palior not?15:45
DocScrutinizer05Pali: I think we can15:46
DocScrutinizer05you already got a etc7hosts to share?15:47
Paliok, so doing: 'echo >> /etc/hosts'15:47
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kerioPali: yay15:54
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kerioPali: will changes to that wiki be saved?15:57
Palikerio, I think yes15:57
Palitry ti15:57
keriono, i mean15:57
keriowe're going to keep that wiki15:57
kerionot the old one15:57
Palikerio, that is ip addresses of new wiki server15:58
Paliwhere was migration15:58
Paliand now waiting until Nokia update A recodrs15:58
keriodammit where's the cssu changelog15:58
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keriooh, here we go15:58
Palibut I already updated my /etc/hosts :D15:58
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* kerio shakes his fist at merlin1991, not properly writing the CSSU version in the changelog15:59
kerio"this is the new version"15:59
SiceloPali: lol, now i flushed my /etc/hosts. please paste yours if you don't mind15:59
PaliSicelo, where? on n900?16:00
Palijust restart phone, upstart will generate new after reboot16:00
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Sicelowow. thanks16:01
keriook, i assume that the changelog with no version is for T616:02
Pali$ OPI=`which osso-product-info`; if [ ! -f /etc/hostname  -o ! -s /etc/hostname -o ! -f /etc/hosts -o ! -s /etc/hosts ]; then hostname="`$OPI -qOSSO_PRODUCT_SHORT_NAME | sed 's/ /-/g'`"; echo $hostname > /etc/hostname; echo " $hostname localhost" > /etc/hosts; chmod 644 /etc/hosts; fi16:04
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Palithis is used in /etc/init.d/rcS ^^^^^16:04
Sicelobtw Pali, you ever noticed the bug that you can't ping if you are on cellular internet?16:05
kerioSicelo: that's a nasty bug :s16:05
Palino, never16:05
Sicelounless you use ifconfig to down, then up the interface..16:05
Pali$ ifup lo16:06
Siceloiirc only ifconfig works.. not ifup16:07
Siceloanyway, i suppose it's not so important. but still weird16:08
keriomeh, it's merlin1991's job anyway16:09
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merlin1991 kerio on tmo there is the changelog for T6 T7 and T7.1 :D16:10
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keriomerlin1991: yeah but it's ugly16:10
merlin1991kerio: also is ususally helpfull16:10
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keriolike, the rest of the changelog is all in tables and with proper capitalisation16:11
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merlin1991guess what I do each time :D16:11
keriopaste the changelog and wait for someone else to format it properly?16:11
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merlin1991ususally I format it on the wiki when I put it in16:12
keriowell, i don't want to infringe on your style16:12
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DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, jrtools is <reply> echo >> /etc/hosts;
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0516:58
infobotecho >> /etc/hosts;
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DocScrutinizer05infobot: no, jrtools is <reply> cp /etc/hosts /etc/hosts-maemobackup && echo "" >> /etc/hosts;
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0517:02
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* freemangordon read #maemo-meeting logs17:12
freemangordonwow, great progress :)17:12
freemangordonseems after all there is a light at the end of the tunnel :)17:12
DocScrutinizer05how would I emulate a CNAME DNS in my /etc/hosts?17:19
kerioyou wouldn't17:19
keriono, actually you would17:19
DocScrutinizer05thought as much17:19
kerioi think you can just put the hostname instead of the ip17:20
kerioidk, try it17:20
kerioaww :(17:20
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: \o/17:20
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it says you can't17:20
kerioDocScrutinizer05: what for, btw?17:21
keriothe hosts file is just used when resolving names into addresses17:21
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DocScrutinizer05I guess for now adding emulated A records instead of CNAME records to /etc/hosts is all I can do17:23
kerioDocScrutinizer05: of course it's not17:25
keriorun a local DNS server17:25
DocScrutinizer05haha, yeah17:26
DocScrutinizer05for you and all the remaining 60k of community - on one of my spare N90017:26
thedead1440actually that link has a sh script that could be run as a cron job saving the need to have a local DNS server...17:27
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DocScrutinizer05  "Connection to Server Refused"  mhm17:42
Luke-JrDocScrutinizer05: open a bug for it17:44
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DocScrutinizer05for your convenience:  wget >>/etc/hosts17:47
jonwilSo basically things are in place except that we are still waiting for Nokia to get its ass into gear and point the DNS at the new locations for this stuff?17:49
DocScrutinizer05partially at least17:49
DocScrutinizer05which is muuuuuch better than I been expecting17:50
DocScrutinizer05forgot to insert a tag for later easy removal17:52
jonwilso is the issue just that the right people at Nokia are slow/lazy/still on holidays/whatever or are there actual issues here (e.g. legal guys need to do things)17:52
DocScrutinizer05the latter, with HiFo17:57
DocScrutinizer05I assume17:58 doesn't answer Nemein inquiries17:58
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DocScrutinizer05alas HiFo states those negotiations are non-public according to Nokia's explicit request, so we have to trust in our board to "do the right thing" here18:00
DocScrutinizer05extreme responsibility18:01
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DocScrutinizer05I wish them all the best, and good councilors/experts they can check with, to make sure their approach is the best we can do18:04
DocScrutinizer05after all that's about *lawyers*18:04
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keriothe negotiation is non-public, but the final result can't be, right?18:05
DocScrutinizer05and DNS is only a small chunk of the whole package to agree upon18:05
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DocScrutinizer05I bet the final result will get published by HiFo18:08
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jonwilI would imagine that negotiations would probably include the right to redistribute various (c) Nokia content, rights to use Nokia trademarks in certain cases where HiFo and the community needs to be able to use those trademarks and who knows what else18:09
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jonwilThere is a thread on tmo where people are supposed to be listing all things related to Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan/N900/N950/N9 that are not on * but where ownership/distribution rights need to be transferred to the community so I imagine the stuff there factors into it too18:12
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* SpeedEvil imagines what a full release of all sources on open licences would do.18:13
DocScrutinizer05and I think - even while generally non-public - HiFo *should* (B)CC at least council on their negotiations, since it's really way too much responsibility for just 2 people to get the whole FOSS spirit and all the minuscule details about each single domain right, without some sparring/feedback from other guys18:13
SpeedEvil(probably little)18:13
SpeedEvil(and Impossible)18:13
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jonwilOff the top of my head I can easily list off about 10-20 currently-closed packages that would enable great things if they were open-sourced. In saying that though reading the list at I can see valid reasons why a fair whack of them remain closed18:15
DocScrutinizer05haha, opensource Nokia blobs, dream on, this is NOT about such miracles18:16
DocScrutinizer05and I honestly hope HiFo did get that as well18:17
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DocScrutinizer05worst thing that could happen: Nokia simply stopping negotiations about transfer of domains and content due to HiFo asking for and insisting in too much, that Nokia simply can't do18:18
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DocScrutinizer05we'll blame thedead1440 then, for writing a customer mail to elop and thus "making evil authorities in nokia aware" of the maemo issue ;-P18:22
* thedead1440 hides18:22
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: how DARE you?18:22
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thedead1440i wrote it from a consumer not from maemo and highlighted 3 issues including maemo :S18:23
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: just kidding, I hope you noticed that18:23
thedead1440ofcourse :p18:23
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thedead1440its after all very convenient to say 2 drafts were what was wanted and due to the email the 3rd draft was watered down18:24
kerioand you wrote it to elop?18:24
thedead1440of course18:25
keriotough shit, it probably got nowhere close to him18:25
thedead1440i wrote a long rant to him; its old news18:25
kerioit was *long* too?18:25
thedead1440it got to him most probably18:25
keriothen the small chance that he could've stumbled upon it is actually 018:25
thedead1440he replies to L920 users and mnb too before18:25
DocScrutinizer05actually when HiFo sends back first contract with comments what should get changed, and gets a 2nd draft with worse conditions, it's not necessarily thedead1440 who made the lawyers reconsider. It might as well have been the comments HiFo added to the first draft that made Nokia lawyers look at some cases once again and suddenly notice there's something that slipped their attention in first draft18:25
keriowhy wouldn't nokia want to just get rid of all the maemo cruft?18:26
thedead1440kerio: i didn't say i'm thedead1440 and referring to maemo but I gave my real name saying as a Nokia consumer some issues were troubling like stopping paid apps for n9 being listed in china etc18:26
kerio<elop> it's ok, we won't stop apps for windows phone being listed in china18:27
thedead1440my main issues were with device support for existing devices with valid warranties18:27
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thedead1440maemo was one para in it highlighting in the grand scheme of things device support18:28
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DocScrutinizer05and my last post pretty much explains why I think HiFo *ought* share and discuss their negotiations with Nokia with council18:29
thedead1440well DocScrutinizer05 i think i should post my email on the ML to get rid of suspicions18:30
DocScrutinizer05and my last post pretty much explains why I think HiFo *ought* share and discuss with council their negotiations with Nokia18:30
DocScrutinizer05yes, probably a very good idea18:30
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: ^^^18:31
thedead1440i'm contemplating it but then what i wrote won't remain private so weighing against it18:31
DocScrutinizer05well, didn't you answer to the public(?) bashing by HiFo already?18:32
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: no srsly, why would nokia stop the negotiations? :(18:33
thedead1440but i asked if they wanted the email they didn't reply on that18:33
DocScrutinizer05or was this in a closed ML once again?18:33
thedead1440nope doc it was cc'ed to board & council18:33
DocScrutinizer05both are closed18:33
DocScrutinizer05aka non-public18:34
thedead1440releasing it just invites more flaming against me, I think... I'm an individual after all and its very easy to go on TMO and say due to thedead1440's email to Elop we have lost this and that18:34
DocScrutinizer05so as long as HiFo bashing against you is non-public, I recommend you shouldn't answer it in public either18:35
thedead1440cue massive outrage bla bla18:35
thedead1440exactly that's what I was thinking too18:35
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* jonwil does his best to avoid political and legal crap18:37
jonwilI just want to write code :)18:38
DocScrutinizer05((<kerio> why wouldn't nokia want to just get rid of all the maemo cruft?)) kerio, HiFo is thinking BIG, really BIIIIG, they want further all sorts of maemo-derived and generally open source projects, maemo itself is just a small aspect on their agenda18:38
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: so I'm afraid they demand Nokia to do things they can't do, like opensourcing whole maemo (something we didn't manage even in times when there was actually personal in Nokia who knew what maemo actually is)18:40
DocScrutinizer05other possible points of argue are about commercializing maemo trademark and sourcecode18:41
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DocScrutinizer05as well as meego and whatnot else18:41
thedead1440DocScrutinizer05 explain "commercializing maemo trademark and sourcecode" you mean HiFo is asking for rights to do so?18:42
DocScrutinizer05I sometimes think HiFo is overestimating their own power and relevance to entities like Nokia, jolla, etc18:42
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: if they would, this for sure might cause massive trouble in getting any agreement with Nokia18:43
keriowell, let's tell them to stfu18:45
DocScrutinizer05whom? HiFo? I don't even know what they're saying right now, so I don't think STFU is the right advice18:46
DocScrutinizer05rather my advice is: "consider doing frequent regular reality-check with your colleagues from maemo council"18:47
thedead1440btw DocScrutinizer05 what do you make of Jolla's response to HiFo?18:47
DocScrutinizer05the answered?18:47
DocScrutinizer05to the "open letter"?18:48
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M4rtinK   if its really them though :)18:50
thedead1440M4rtinK: its them they tweeted about it yesterday18:50
M4rtinKoh, nice18:50
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kerio"we're unlike, in the sense that we eventually want to make money from it"18:52
keriohow evil18:52
DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: well, it's what I've expected18:53
thedead1440what do you think they are saying?18:54
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DocScrutinizer05HiFo is offering "services" that they basically can't deliver, since those "services" are from *community* not HiFo18:55
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wmarone_I'm failing to see what's evil here?18:55
DocScrutinizer05nothing, in my book18:55
DocScrutinizer05it's just that HiFo can't offer any service of value to Jolla, other than putting them on their "supporters" page18:57
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DocScrutinizer05so if Jolla would decide to fund HiFo/maemo, they'd do for PR, not to get any service from HiFo18:58
DocScrutinizer05unlike mer/nemo project, which is actually doing a service that Jolla pretty much depends on18:59
thedead1440and they are not interested in such PR as of now? So they said thanks but no thanks in a nice way? Is that what you mean DocScrutinizer0518:59
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DocScrutinizer05the next comment (#42) makes the misconception quite obvious19:00
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DocScrutinizer05thedead1440: I think they just said "no service offered by HiFo to Jolla" in a nice and friendly way. Not even mentioning if they might consider funding for PR or for mere goodwill19:01
thedead1440ah ok ;)19:02
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DocScrutinizer05IOW that's an answer from Jolla's project lead, not from Jolla's PR department19:03
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DocScrutinizer05[quote joris, #42] >>You will need the support that the Hildon Foundation is offering you! <<  Probably not19:05
M4rtinKI think it should been worded more directly19:05
M4rtinKHiFO: we have a nice  mobile user & dev community in need of hosting19:06
thedead1440M4rtinK: IMO a more direct reply would have the ability to put off some Jolla fans who are first maemo fans19:06
* freemangordon wonders what HiFo was expecting19:06
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: nfc19:06
M4rtinKpay us hosting and it is quite likely that the community will see you in favourable light & you might get quite a few longtime developers interested :)19:06
DocScrutinizer05[2013-01-05 17:42:43] <DocScrutinizer05> I sometimes think HiFo is overestimating their own power and relevance to entities like Nokia, jolla, etc19:06
freemangordonTBH I'd rather asked Canonical19:07
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: +119:07
freemangordon(yeah, I know they are evil :P )19:07
* DocScrutinizer05 gasps19:07
M4rtinKHiFo: oh and we have a really nice forum up and running & migh consider adding a Jolla section to it & the maling lists19:07
thedead1440with the addition of Sailfish on xda i don't think they will need a tmo equivalent too19:07
DocScrutinizer05M4rtinK: +119:08
M4rtinKhmm, I would rather like this to stay on tmo :)19:08
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thedead1440i think all of us would want it on tmo19:08
M4rtinKit would IMO get drowned in the xda traffic19:08
thedead1440but with it now on xda i just have a feeling jolla prefer that option more19:08
freemangordonDon;t count me in19:09
M4rtinKI like how you can just keep up with what is happening by watching the active thread list in upper left :)19:09
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thedead1440M4rtinK: yup that's whats best of tmo19:10
M4rtinKjust checked out the xda forum19:11
* DocScrutinizer05 recalls his question during public meego foundation meeting "what about the bootloader? Will meego define it has to be open?" <meego>A: "the bootloader is not our domain, ask product manufs about that"19:11
M4rtinKthey just have an useless listing of current portal articles on the right19:11
M4rtinKat least they support "thanks" :)19:11
freemangordonthedead1440: AIUI Sailfish is Meltemi reborn. I don;t think we (maemos) have ever been a target user group for Meltemi19:11
thedead1440freemangordon: thats evil :p19:12
freemangordonlet it be evel then19:12
thedead1440with that comment you brought them down several notches :p19:12
freemangordonbut sounds about true19:12
thedead1440it doesn't have landscape for starters so yes quite true19:12
freemangordonand it is focused on China ;)19:13
* thedead1440 feels so many evolution OSes this year yet none that are competent in all aspects19:14
DocScrutinizer05stskeeps has the absolutely right *intentions*, and so far I see no indications that Jolla is not following his path19:14
M4rtinKwell, I get about 90% of all downloads from China for the apps I have in Ovi :)19:14
DocScrutinizer05we'll see if that is here to stay, though19:14
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: "intensions"? elaborate please19:16
DocScrutinizer05what i'm worried about most is a possible tivoization of jolla's phone19:16
freemangordonBTW I am not saying going Meltemi way is a bad think. It is just that we are not invited to the party ;)19:17
thedead1440freemangordon: we as in not including harmattan?19:18
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freemangordonincluding HARM19:18
DocScrutinizer05meltemi been about downsizing maemo/linux to match featurephones aiui. I don't see this in mer7nemo/sailfish19:19
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: Where did you see enough sailfish to decide?19:19
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thedead1440well did you see meltemi doc?19:20
DocScrutinizer05I see the definition of sailfish19:20
freemangordonI saw a mediaplayer and something that looks like a dialer19:20
freemangordon(in sailfish)19:20
M4rtinKIIRC Jolla stated (or was this just a rumor?) they are not interested in low-end due to profit margins ?19:20
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thedead1440freemangordon: thats all what they always show :D19:20
freemangordonI know19:20
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M4rtinKthedead1440: meltemi doc ? :)19:20
thedead1440doc == DocScrutinizer05 :D19:21
DocScrutinizer05no, it's not19:21
thedead1440hehe :p19:21
freemangordonM4rtinK: sure, that is what they say, but I wonder what is the market in China for high-end devices19:22
freemangordonAnd what marings can you put there19:22
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's irrelevant, since - I suspect - their VC comes from same companies, so they already got the money from that china adventure19:23
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thedead1440do they have the money? wasn't the amount just pledged but to be released only in stages19:24
freemangordonEven if the conspiracy theory is true and it is the China govenrnment behind them I don;t believe the china authorities want to put high-end FOSS linux device in the slaves' hands19:24
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DocScrutinizer05and, as elaborated recently on this very channel - when any chinese company gets a completely open system for their phone, then it's easy for them to lock it down to their liking19:25
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: iirc Jolla is EU based19:25
DocScrutinizer05so what?19:26
freemangordonjust thinking... if it will be that easy. Locking that is19:26
freemangordonTHough you are most probably right19:27
DocScrutinizer05it *is* that easy, tivoization is a standard feature on every SOC nowadays that you simply need to activate19:27
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DocScrutinizer05et voila: completely open / FOSS system (or maybe not) that anyway no normal user can change19:28
DocScrutinizer05see HARM19:28
thedead1440tivoization of sub-standard OS is what Jolla might end up19:28
DocScrutinizer05basically, though HARM is harmless (pun intended)19:28
freemangordonsure. but I think the whole point is not running another OS on Jollaphone, but running sailfish on another devices19:28
DocScrutinizer05~wiki tivoization19:29
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{POV|date=November 2012}} 'Tivoization' ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|t|iː|v|oʊ|ɨ|ˌ|z|eɪ|ʃ|ən}}) is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license (like the GPL), but uses hardware restrictions to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term in reference to TiVo's u19:29
Sicelohmm. thanks19:29
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DocScrutinizer05so, let's wait and see if Jolla's first phone comes with "sharks with lasers"19:38
DocScrutinizer05anyway I can't see anything bad in sailfish yet, from the general policy aspect POV19:38
thedead1440i can see from the UI though19:39
DocScrutinizer05that's a completely different topic and I tend to agree here19:39
thedead1440and if its limited to 9 apps multi-tasking, i wonder if it means actually a more locked down OS than thought19:40
DocScrutinizer05it's probably too much "a phone" for me to become my cup of tea, much like HARM19:40
thedead1440worse than harm imo19:40
M4rtinKwell, it looks more like just an unfinished design than something really HARMful :)19:43
M4rtinKIf they release it like this & the GUI is not open enough to extend by the community19:45
M4rtinKwell, that would be bad :)19:45
DocScrutinizer05I guess Jolla will publish a sailfish that's open but rudimentary, and whoever over at china will do exactly what Nokia did: add closed blob skin apps and other shite, call it a product and tivoize it19:47
thedead1440so emperor with new clothes but maybe of a slightly lower quality?19:47
DocScrutinizer05we'll see19:48
M4rtinKisn't that also how Android works ?19:49
DocScrutinizer05afaik, never used any android device19:50
DocScrutinizer05ooh, and by the life of mine I can't remember stskeep's answer to my question how sailfish manages to deliver on their claim that it takes them one nightshift to port sailfish to arbitrary new hw. I suspected they are exploiting android drivers like RIL (for modem) and GFX etc19:52
DocScrutinizer05afaik not all RIL implementations are open source19:52
DocScrutinizer05I think some answer been "we use ofono" which doesn't really answer my question19:53
kerioDocScrutinizer05: anything can be done in a nightshift, if you have enough people :P19:54
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kerioand enough coffee, ofc19:54
Palido somebody know if jabber account configuration UI is open?19:55
DocScrutinizer05yeah, born after one nightshift, with 4600 mothers and 58m^3 coffe involved19:55
Paliin that UI is missing config option for jabber resource priority19:55
DocScrutinizer05kerio: no you can't19:55
Palibut priority can be configured via some command line tool19:55
Pali(nokia fixed that bug only on half)19:56
DocScrutinizer05kerio: since conversation bandwidth between developers is limited to what human brain and mouth can do19:56
kerioDocScrutinizer05: that's only because human birth is inefficient and not easily parallelizable19:56
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keriojust have a cluster of inexpensive moms19:56
DocScrutinizer05so is writing code19:56
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DocScrutinizer05if one developer needs 5 minutes do write a function, you don't see 300 developers writing same function in one second19:58
keriobut you can write multiple functions in 5 minutes!19:58
DocScrutinizer05yes, but then they are not integrated19:58
DocScrutinizer05they will be just a bunch of useless unrelated functions19:58
DocScrutinizer05aka windows - SCNR19:59
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DocScrutinizer05and after those 5 min you got 300 functions that will take each single one of your devels 10 min to understand and another 15 minutes to integrate into own code, 300^2 * 25min20:01
keriohave you considered the coffee, though? i don't see the coffee in your analysis20:02
DocScrutinizer05 /300 devels = still 150h20:02
DocScrutinizer05ok, *coffe = 180h20:02
DocScrutinizer05then first debugging cycle starts20:04
DocScrutinizer05eventually your nightshift is over20:04
DocScrutinizer05so... [2013-01-05 18:55:49] <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: no you can't20:05
kerioDocScrutinizer05: hrmpf20:05
keriook, remove the coffee and add meth20:05
DocScrutinizer05and 5 fatalities20:06
keriowhy is adding performance-enhancing drugs *increasing* the time?20:06
DocScrutinizer05which might help to speed up the process ;-P20:06
DocScrutinizer05because quality of code suffers a lot20:07
keriook, remove the meth and add weed20:07
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DocScrutinizer05anybody did further tests with my little convenience thingie above?20:09
DocScrutinizer05[2013-01-05 16:47:36] <DocScrutinizer05> for your convenience:  wget >>/etc/hosts20:10
kerioDocScrutinizer05: you suck20:10
keriowget saves files in the current directory20:10
kerioall you're doing is appending a nice progress bar to /etc/hosts20:11
DocScrutinizer05hmm, you're absolutely right20:11
keriouse curl20:11
kerioor the appropriate wget option20:11
Pali$ wget -q -O - >> /etc/hosts20:11
DocScrutinizer05I'll leave that up to you then ;-)20:11
Palirun ^^^^20:11
keriois curl preinstalled?20:11
kerioPali: why the -q?20:11
DocScrutinizer05on my desktop PC? SURE!20:12
keriowon't wget know to avoid outputting anything but the file?20:12
kerioDocScrutinizer05: that's not what i meant and you know ti20:12
Palibecause you do not want to write some progressbar to /etc/hosts :D20:12
Paliand busybox is stupid and can use stdout for progressbar....20:12
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils20:12
keriohm, i have gnu wget20:13
kerioin /usr/bin, what the hell20:13
DocScrutinizer05no friggin messybox on my PC, and for sure I didn't think of N900 when I posted above workaround (though it should apply *in principle*)20:13
kerioPali: are you sure wget isn't just gnu wget?20:13
keriooh, it's not20:14
DocScrutinizer05wget isn't messybox20:14
keriowget is just... not there? apparently20:14
Palikerio, there is also wget in some busybox20:14
DocScrutinizer05wget isn't even installed per default on fremantle afaik20:14
keriothere's wget in sdk/tools and in extras-devel20:14
Palibut I do not know if nokia compiled wget aplet into our busybox20:14
kerionot sure about other extras20:14
DocScrutinizer05maybe bauer-messybox has wget20:15
DocScrutinizer05std messybox doesn't20:15
keriowget: applet not found20:15
keriothe powah busybox does, ofc20:15
kerioand the progress bar is outputted to stderr, even in busybox wget20:16
DocScrutinizer05wget comes with about 50% of pkgs in extras20:16
Paliwe can be happy, that we can install GNU utils20:16
Palion some routers there is *only* busybox20:16
keriowe could've been happier if they were preinstalled :)20:16
Palior on androids there is no GNU...20:17
kerioalso, my router probably has enough space to install the whole coreutils20:17
Paliand my router is tivoized :-(20:17
Palino way to install telnet or ssh...20:17
PaliI got source code from cisco, but that tarballs are useless20:18
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DocScrutinizer05YIKES! looks but ugly without proper static.maemo.org20:18
Palirouter upgrade only signed firmware image...20:18
DocScrutinizer05now how the heck would I access "normal" with that etc/hosts in place?20:19
keriowell, change the hosts file20:19
kerioPali: have you tried using the emergency tftp transfer thing?20:20
keriousually those aren't signed20:20
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I already anticipated I'll need some shell cmd to swap /etc/hosts and /etc/hosts-maemobackup20:21
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I'd appreciate some help on getting the best out of this inerim bandaid solution20:22
DocScrutinizer05interim even20:22
kerio/etc/hosts-new and /etc/hosts-old20:22
kerioand then cp the one you want20:22
kerio(also make sure to shift+refresh, firefox has its own dns cache too)20:23
DocScrutinizer05yes, kerio. That's about the level of development I can do when I'm awake and put much effort in20:23
Sicelokerio: is it possible to de-activate firefox cache?20:24
kerioclearly, it's because of not enough coffee20:24
kerioSicelo: i'm... not sure you really want that20:24
DocScrutinizer05I'm more wondering if something could get improved in the patched etc/hosts20:24
keriobesides, what would that even mean?20:24
keriodo you want a dns request for each connection?20:24
kerioif the server doesn't support http 1.1, you're in for a treat20:24
kerioand a ban from your dns server, probably20:24
Siceloi could probably run dnsmasq20:24
kerioSicelo: network.dnsCacheExpiration 020:25
keriosays some random website20:25
Sicelothe issue is.. my internet it terrible... and firefox doesn't seem to take well to that. while other applications don't seem to mind too much20:25
kerio<exaggeration>to be fair, google dns is probably faster than firefox's cache</exaggeration>20:27
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Sicelohmm, that key doesn't seem to exist on 17.0.120:28
kerioyou have to add it20:28
kerioor someting20:28
keriothere's a GracePeriod too20:28
kerioi set both to 020:29
kerioit doesn't seem to be slower20:29
kerio(osx does dns caching too)20:29
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Palikerio, ftfp accept only signed image too :-(20:34
fizzieMy router is kind of similar, except its web admin interface full of shell injection holes (sprintf(s, "iptables ... %s ...", from_http_form), system(s)) and that's the only way to run anything unofficial on it. (Plus there's no sources for it anywhere.)20:35
fizzie(The manufacturer firmware has a telnet admin interface that has a "sh" command to drop into busybox shell, but this ISP-customized version has been changed to not accept the same accounts/passwords the web admin interface does.)20:36
SpeedEvilI'm stuck on my DSL router, because it has a comedy but20:37
SpeedEvilthe exchange can request the modem train with a given SNR.20:37
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SpeedEvilsometimes, for a reason I don't understand, it asks for 20dB or so ,margin, which kills speed.20:38
SpeedEvilthe router should only be able to be set to a higher margin than is requested.20:38
SpeedEvilbut, if asked for a margin of 65530, it in fact sets less due to an overflow error.20:39
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Palifizzie, I tried more ping or similar injections, but nothing worked...21:20
Paliseems that cisco devs doing their job very good...21:20
kerioPali: well, it's usually linksys that likes users running their own firmware :)21:22
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NIN101http:// irrelevant new rescueOS release with tiny changes in case someone cares.21:41
Siceloi do :-)21:42
kerioa menu? :s21:43
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keriowhat is this, Super Happy Fun Recovery Time OS?21:43
NIN101just 3 yes/no questions.21:43
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kerio(the scripts to do those three things later are still in /rescueOS, right?)21:44
NIN101of course.21:44
kerioNIN101: where should the wifi firmware be stored in? /lib/firmware ?21:46
kerioNIN101: also, do you remember if there's a way to type ESC?21:47
NIN101no clue21:47
keriohm, can the image be mounted read-write?21:49
keriooh, nope21:50
NIN101mount tmpfs over /lib/firmware21:50
NIN101ok in /rescueOS there is also a script which steals everything automatically from maemo.21:51
kerioNIN101: no, i wanted to modify the .img21:51
NIN101well in the end it's a cramfs imagine which you can unpack somehow and then recreate.21:53
kerioyeah, yeah21:54
kerioit's not that important anyway21:54
kerioif you blow up the maemo rootfs you have to reflash anyway21:54
freemangordonanother CA down21:55
NIN101yeah, the broken concept of CAs is falling apart.21:55
keriohaha, TÜRKTRUST is the first cert in the list in Settings21:56
kerioPali: which parameters does NOLO give to the kernel when it's loaded and booted with an initrd via flasher?21:58
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Palikerio, same params as for normal kernel22:34
kerioPali: how does it know to use the initrd then?22:35
Paliit append atag about initfs existance (with address in memory)22:36
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kerioi see22:36 i should be able to use uboot without a special cmdline, right?22:36
Paliwhy not?22:37
kerioidk, the item file *you* gave me had "rootdelay root=/dev/ram0" as the cmdline22:37
Paliif kernel has not compiled root= param (to boot from initfs) then you need to provide it22:38
Paliotherwise kernel trying to boot from mtd rootfs ubifs...22:38
Palinote that (last) uboot generating atags22:38
Paliit not reusing them from nolo22:39
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keriooh, apparently that cmdline is specified in rescueOS's documentation22:39
Pali(it only look for bootreason, bootmode and hwrevision)22:39
kerioflasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0"22:39
Paliyou can also use 0xFFFF :-)22:39
* Sicelo makes a note to test 0xFFFF the next time he plays with kernels22:42
Sicelokerio: cmdline is not specified in that kernel's config, therefore needs to be specified22:42
kerioyeah, i was just wondering where that cmdline came from22:43
Sicelothe config is someone on the site22:43
kerioindeed, i've seen it now22:47
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Siceloi'm now wondering what the difference between rootdleay & rootwait is, if any22:48
keriorootdelay=<n> is a fixed wait22:48
keriorootwait will wait (up until a timeout? idk) for the rootfs to come up and then it goes22:48
Siceloah. :)22:48
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mindehello! where I can find n900 linux kernel config?23:22
mindepatches, source23:22
keriominde: apt-src should work23:24
kerio...if it was installed23:24
kerioi suppose it's installed in scratchbox23:24
mindeOkay, thanks23:25
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Estel_hello there23:58
Estel_Lately, I managed to put my hand on expensivfe (whole 2 euro ;P) usb-ethernet adaptor. It seems, that modules for it are already present in kernel-power, as it lights up and is recognized properly:23:59

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