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| Apic | Night. | 00:45 |
|---|---|---|
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| Apic | Re. | 01:40 |
| ShadowJK | re | 01:41 |
| Apic | thx | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | uh? | 01:46 |
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| ShadowJK | :) | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | Looks like I'll have to build myself a gaming PC next year-ish :) | 01:48 |
| ShadowJK | Elite:dangerous getting kickstarter funded | 01:48 |
| Apic | ;-) | 01:52 |
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| merlin1991 | just take nvidia over amd | 01:59 |
| merlin1991 | then you don't run into as many driver problems :D | 01:59 |
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| pewter_tao | you guys checkout the nexus4? | 02:01 |
| pewter_tao | I'm curious about your guys' secondary uses for the n900 now that it's not a phone for you | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | nexus4 would be cool with a hwkbd :/ | 02:02 |
| ShadowJK | at 550E, I'd rather wait and see if jolla comes with something interesting | 02:03 |
| ShadowJK | meanwhile I'm still using N900 | 02:03 |
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| pewter_tao | ShadowJK: yeah, I've the same issue w/ no HW keyboards... It'll be my first touch keyboard | 02:09 |
| pewter_tao | I gotta at least try it | 02:09 |
| pewter_tao | ShadowJK: any word of jolla? | 02:09 |
| pewter_tao | It would be nice if they gave us some specific hope | 02:09 |
| pewter_tao | so we could help them popularize and everything | 02:09 |
| pewter_tao | there's also the new ubuntu stuff | 02:10 |
| pewter_tao | they'll be using regular android hardware for the forseeable future, supposedly | 02:10 |
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| jonwil | Its a pitty the few phones out there in the market that have hardware keyboards suck in other ways | 02:15 |
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| Apic | Yeah | 02:16 |
| jonwil | Motorola has produced a number of GSM Android phones with hardware keyboards | 02:16 |
| jonwil | but they are all locked down tight and you cant run alternate OSs on them | 02:16 |
| ShadowJK | Sony too, but they only put real kbd on their shit-end androids with 320x200 screens etc | 02:17 |
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| jonwil | The HTC 7 pro would be nice if it wasnt for the crappy OS | 02:18 |
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| jonwil | I suspect it will be a very long time before any manufacturer produces a phone with a physical keyboard that is anywhere near as good as the N900 | 02:21 |
| Skry | I'm suspecting the very same | 02:22 |
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| qwazix | https://www.google.gr/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbo=d&biw=1366&bih=628&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=android+qwerty+smartphone&btnG= | 02:30 |
| qwazix | Looking through those images it seems the companies think that the hwkb is only for geeks without a sense of beauty or sth | 02:31 |
| qwazix | except the MotoDroids that is... | 02:31 |
| jonwil | 99.999% of those phones are obsolete or running on obsolete crappy hardware | 02:33 |
| Apic | Yeah | 02:34 |
| ShadowJK | ya | 02:34 |
| qwazix | or have ugly dpads or stupid soft-buttons on the front | 02:34 |
| ShadowJK | 95% were obsolete when their spec was decided | 02:34 |
| qwazix | or 2x2px screens | 02:34 |
| qwazix | I think that whoever does a high end beautiful qwerty phone today with a 4+ screen will carve market share for years to come | 02:37 |
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| qwazix | Because I know nobody, geek or not, who used a good hwkb and wants to go back | 02:37 |
| qwazix | But even I wouldn't buy anything available to buy today with a hwkb. So companies fool themselves that there is no market | 02:38 |
| pewter_tao | qwazix: you mean who doesn't want to go back, right? | 02:39 |
| pewter_tao | I don't think ubuntu will consider making their own hardware, but they should | 02:39 |
| qwazix | because their crappy qwerty *of course* don't sell | 02:39 |
| qwazix | pewter_tao, I'm not good at those double negative things as in different languages mean different things | 02:39 |
| pewter_tao | http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9235176/Update_Canonical_prepares_Ubuntu_for_smartphones | 02:40 |
| qwazix | but I mean that everybody I know that's been using hwkb wants to keep using hwkb | 02:40 |
| qwazix | ah, ok now I get why I was not clear. I meant "I know nobody, geek or not, who used a good hwkb and wants to go back to pure touchscreen" | 02:41 |
| qwazix | which probably doesn't make much sense... | 02:41 |
| jonwil | I think if you took a phone like the Galaxy Nexus, Galaxy S2 or Galaxy S3 and added a good hardware keyboard, it could well become the greatest phone ever made. | 02:43 |
| pewter_tao | qwazix: now that made sense | 02:43 |
| qwazix | Galaxy Note ftw. Fits a 104key qwerty :P | 02:44 |
| pewter_tao | jonwil: the bigger the screen, the more oddly a HW keyboard will make the bezel shape | 02:44 |
| XenonXZ | imho, n900 with a gig of ram and quad cpu | 02:44 |
| XenonXZ | thats a perfect phone :-) | 02:44 |
| pewter_tao | XenonXZ: yeah, why isn't anyway soldering new CPUs to the n900 board? | 02:44 |
| pewter_tao | I feel like we only need 20 people who want this and we can spec one together, get some biz dev people, and make a fucking company | 02:45 |
| pewter_tao | I'll make a "let's start a cell phone company website" and you guys can popularize it on maemo forum... | 02:45 |
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| XenonXZ | :p | 02:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: elite-what? bell and braben? | 02:52 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 02:52 |
| ShadowJK | Braben is doing a Elite 4 :) | 02:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Braben, the last real coder | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or was it Bell? | 02:53 |
| ShadowJK | Bell is the harecore mathematician | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I even forgot how many million assembler lines elite been | 02:54 |
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| ShadowJK | People who reverse engineered 2 and 3 found many bugs in "simple" things like the 64 bit multiply function | 02:54 |
| ShadowJK | Well the original fit in 22k ram | 02:55 |
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| Skry | damn new elite, forcing me to buy new hardware | 02:56 |
| jonwil | I recon the best hope for a decent phone with a hw keyboard is if the GTA04 people ever get to the point that they can afford to do one... | 02:56 |
| jonwil | The hardware of the N900 is starting to look a bit dated (and if it was possible to upgrade the parts in the N900 with new ones someone would have found out how to do it by now) | 02:57 |
| XenonXZ | Still love my N900 even if it is dated | 02:58 |
| jonwil | yes me too | 02:58 |
| jonwil | The only way I will give up the N900 is if it breaks and cant be fixed anymore | 02:59 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; elite 2 Atari version approximately 600,000 lines of asm | 02:59 |
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| ShadowJK | http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous anyway | 03:02 |
| wirr | ShadowJK, thanks four your links - I wont be able to run the tests today but i'll be back tomorrow | 03:03 |
| ShadowJK | wirr: sure :) | 03:05 |
| Hurrian | jonwil, uhh, that's if the GTA04 devs figure out power management | 03:06 |
| Hurrian | I had a Freerunner, and it simply pales in comparison to what the N900 can do | 03:07 |
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| XenonXZ | nn all | 03:07 |
| Hurrian | night | 03:08 |
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| jonwil | What makes power management so hard? I thought it was all done by the kernel on a modern Linux setup | 03:11 |
| jonwil | Although I guess the real issue (battery life) is all to do with optimizing the whole system to run better | 03:11 |
| ShadowJK | Have you use hibernate/suspend-to-disk and/or suspend-to-ram on a linux machine? | 03:13 |
| jonwil | nope I haven't | 03:14 |
| ShadowJK | Ah well, N900 does suspend-to-ram seamlessly, even when screen is on | 03:14 |
| ShadowJK | Getting linux kernel to run on a cpu is much easier than getting it to shut down the cpu and wake it up again reliably | 03:15 |
| Hurrian | jonwil: last I heard the wifi module sucked an unholy amount of power for piss range. | 03:15 |
| Apic | Right-e-o | 03:16 |
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| ShadowJK | Without the DVFS, and the sleep modes, N900 idle batterylife would be 5 hours instead of the actual 10-11 days (radios off, screen off, etc) | 03:17 |
| Hurrian | ShadowJK, and while in use, 30 minutes. | 03:17 |
| Hurrian | (this can be demonstrated by booting Debian with the Nemo adaptation kernel) | 03:17 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 03:17 |
| ShadowJK | 30m is impossible :) | 03:18 |
| Hurrian | IIRC Stskeeps said that even with some original RX-51 team members working on MeeGo for the N900, they still couldn't make MeeGo run on the same power envelope as Fremantle | 03:18 |
| Hurrian | so yes, embedded power management is hard. | 03:19 |
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| jonwil | I am guessing that even if you have the same hardware its not just a case of "hey, xyz has already written power management code for our SoC, lets pinch theirs" | 03:21 |
| ShadowJK | I suspect omap3 is the only cpu with proper-ish power management code | 03:22 |
| jonwil | The | 03:23 |
| ShadowJK | The original OLPC had similar abilities, they had to completely ditch the bios and rewrite from scratch to accomplish it :) | 03:24 |
| jonwil | and yeah if the MeeGo guys couldn't match Fremantle for power management when they were using identical hardware and much the same kernel and userspace bits (dsme, mce, bme etc) I dont think the GTA04 guys have a chance | 03:24 |
| jonwil | Be interesting to see some hard numbers comparing the power management/battery life profile of an N900 with stock Fremantle and a N900 with Pali's BME replacement work, see how the new stuff affects battery life | 03:26 |
| ShadowJK | Not significantly | 03:27 |
| ShadowJK | I've been running my own for years | 03:27 |
| ShadowJK | perhaps only difference is that bme shuts down earlier to avoid suddenly running out of power and the potential filesystem corruption from that | 03:28 |
| jonwil | I do wonder which bits of the system are the ones causing MeeGo-on-N900 to have a worse power envelope than Fremantle. Or maybe its just that userspace programs (GUI, apps etc) aren't as well written for MeeGo as they were for Fremantle and therefore use more juice... | 03:29 |
| ShadowJK | I remember DocScrutinizer bitching about the sensor framework atleast | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qtm and sensorfw all based on polling rather than IRQ event driven | 03:31 |
| jonwil | What bit of phone handles sensor framework on Fremantle? | 03:31 |
| ShadowJK | let's take an example of fremantle and idle N900: 11 days life. fremantle otherwise idle, but following script running: "while true; do sleep 5 ; done": 4 days life. | 03:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a sane design decision for all sorts of devices with different sensors that not always have IRQ, but all the devices have lots of battery power or even PSU | 03:32 |
| ShadowJK | So if you've got 4 random things polling accelerometer, proximity, camera door, etc, even with half-minute poll interval you've just dropped idle life to four times less | 03:32 |
| Apic | I wish there was a Compass | 03:33 |
| Apic | My G1 had one, but I threw it away in a psychotic Episode. | 03:33 |
| ShadowJK | the compass in my android tablet is about as useful and accurate as a Ouija board | 03:34 |
| Apic | Ok | 03:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: (which bit of sw) depends, some is done by mce, some by liblocation, some by libisi, etc pp | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and quite some of them are also not as strictly event driven as they should be | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | e.g. accelerometer, it's way better than the one used in mer, but still miles from optimum | 03:37 |
| Sc0rpius | remember the Ubuntu Phone OS I talked like 2 days ago? | 03:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it just doesn't matter that much since they probably poll accelerometer only when screen active | 03:37 |
| Sc0rpius | here's a demo: http://youtu.be/kXWnMTm7We8 | 03:37 |
| Sc0rpius | it should work on any hardware. | 03:38 |
| Sc0rpius | I think it really looks gorgeous | 03:38 |
| Sc0rpius | we should work in porting that to the N900! | 03:38 |
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| ShadowJK | "any hardware" is kinda... | 03:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not sure if I should post *yawn* now, or get me a coffee prior to clicking that link | 03:39 |
| ShadowJK | in practice it's like N900 and Google Nexus*, right | 03:40 |
| Sc0rpius | it's just 2 minutes Doc | 03:40 |
| ShadowJK | and N900 is underpowered | 03:40 |
| Sc0rpius | this is 100% Ubuntu no java / dalvik (Android) crap inside | 03:40 |
| Sc0rpius | just like Maemo, if it runs Maemo, why not Ubuntu phone? | 03:40 |
| ShadowJK | the only major thing hardware-wise is that they've made ubuntu run on android kernel instead of needing linux kernel | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, because I hate buntkuh, maybe? | 03:41 |
| Sc0rpius | you hate Ubuntu? | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 03:42 |
| Sc0rpius | wow that's weird, aren't you a Debian guy? | 03:42 |
| Sc0rpius | or are you a Fedora/Red Hat (RPM) guy? | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? canonical hijacked linux and made it a me-too-windows | 03:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~buntkuh | 03:42 |
| infobot | hmm... buntkuh is http://xkcd.com/424/ ... Redmond, or http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein-Rind | 03:42 |
| ShadowJK | android has a "force everything to sleep" thing going on for power saving, so I imagine android kernels aren't that complete and well tweaked for always-on OS :) | 03:43 |
| Sc0rpius | who said it kept the Android kernel... | 03:44 |
| Sc0rpius | that's a different project called Ubuntu On Android | 03:44 |
| Sc0rpius | this is Ubuntu Phone, a complete OS | 03:44 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu Phone <> Ubuntu for Android | 03:44 |
| Sc0rpius | my brother has a Samsung Note 10.1 tablet and installed that Ubuntu for Androind and lags like HELL | 03:45 |
| Sc0rpius | to me, it's unusable. | 03:45 |
| Sc0rpius | and it's a quad-core tablet with 2 GB of RAM | 03:46 |
| ShadowJK | The whole point of their "any hw" claim is that they run on existing android kernel of the "any hw", that way they don't have to write device drivers and fight with device vendors | 03:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: I'm a system guy | 03:47 |
| Sc0rpius | ShadowJK, well yeah so far it only works with Nexus because the whole OS is OpenSource and they can grab drivers from there | 03:48 |
| Sc0rpius | but that's not the point in the future | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: ...and i'm kinda oldfashioned, so I hate to find upstart on a friend's buntkuh box when he asks for help, while *all* by boxes have proper sysV-init, and I don't see *any* advantage of that new crap | 03:48 |
| Sc0rpius | you're a Slackware guy. | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the I hate gnome | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then* | 03:49 |
| Sc0rpius | that's normal in experienced Linux users. Most people install Xubuntu (no Unity, no Gnome) with Xfce | 03:49 |
| ShadowJK | Sc0rpius; I'm pretty sure the graphics drivers are blobs even on nexus? :) | 03:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and generally I hate that windowsy philosophy in ubuntu | 03:49 |
| Sc0rpius | so you like your several terminal open and nothing else hehehe | 03:50 |
| Skry | several terminals and a browser | 03:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while I've always been proud of my linux systems being *ahead* of any windows desktop usability wise, ubuntu tries to mimic windows as much as they can | 03:51 |
| Sc0rpius | GUI is great. | 03:51 |
| joga | I install plain ubuntu but never ever use the default desktop | 03:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer05, uuhhh? | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wizards are da shite though | 03:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unity is not a mimicry of Windows. | 03:51 |
| Sc0rpius | Ubuntu GUI (with Xfce or LXDE) is great | 03:51 |
| Sc0rpius | Unity is very bad but there are several options | 03:52 |
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| Skry | canonical, red hat, all the same crap, different package (manager) | 03:52 |
| joga | I use mostly: notion lxdm uzbl mupdf wicd | 03:52 |
| joga | then it doesn't matter if the ubuntu machine has 32MB of ram | 03:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | i'd not even be astonished if ubuntu came with double-click to launch, by default | 03:53 |
| Sc0rpius | I use LXDE in my netbook, it's extremely light | 03:53 |
| Sc0rpius | but Xfce in this desktop | 03:54 |
| Apic | LXDE rules, especially OpenBox | 03:54 |
| joga | not light and usable enough imo :p | 03:54 |
| Sc0rpius | actually this is a Xubuntu running in VMWare full screen in a 2nd monitor, my host is Windows 8. | 03:54 |
| Sc0rpius | I have to have both worlds at the same time. | 03:54 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; seems like they have voice to launch now | 03:54 |
| ShadowJK | (say app name to start it) | 03:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 03:54 |
| Sc0rpius | that's nice | 03:54 |
| joga | until you launch porn | 03:55 |
| Apic | ;-) | 03:55 |
| ShadowJK | if it's like iphone or android's voice recog, it's about as useful as a random number generator | 03:55 |
| Apic | I tried "FNORD" with Android. Worked grate! | 03:55 |
| Apic | I literally screamed | 03:55 |
| Apic | Like a Madman | 03:55 |
| Apic | ;-) | 03:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: I bet in 6 months they have tiles, like windows8 | 03:57 |
| Sc0rpius | I hope so! | 03:58 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 too | 03:58 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | might finally kill them | 03:58 |
| Sc0rpius | you already can take the labels out in the taskbar and leave only the icons just like W7 | 03:58 |
| Sc0rpius | and you can, already, group Windows in the taskbar as well | 03:58 |
| Sc0rpius | at least in my Xfce that I'm using right now | 03:59 |
| Sc0rpius | I can't tile windows though | 03:59 |
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| Apic | Night. | 04:25 |
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| newbie007 | greetings, I'm trying to preform a apt-get update on my n900 and getting an error "GPG Error url... KEYEXPIRED" anyone know anything about this? | 08:11 |
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| Snafu777 | Does removing hildon-application-manager fix the issues with setting a static /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list | 08:55 |
| Snafu777 | ? | 08:55 |
| Sicelo | newbie007: yes. it's a known issue. you can safely ignore it | 08:56 |
| Snafu777 | Anyone know? | 08:58 |
| newbie007 | Sicelo: but it prevents me from updating.. | 08:59 |
| Sicelo | newbie007: i believe it doesn't. that error has been around for quite some time now, but we've been able to update. are you sure you don't have other problems? | 09:12 |
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| Sicelo | Snafu777: i don't know. i don't even know what you mean by 'static' | 09:13 |
| Sicelo | in any case, you shouldn't be able to remove HAM. you can try to reinstall it (apt-get install --reinstall ...) | 09:15 |
| Snafu777 | it sucks and its slow | 09:16 |
| Snafu777 | i user faster application manager | 09:16 |
| Sicelo | HAM is slow, but your FAM can kill your system. | 09:16 |
| Sicelo | leave HAM alone. maybe ccsu will eventually make it suck less | 09:18 |
| Snafu777 | i just wanted to remove it in hopes that it doesnt mess with my sources list | 09:19 |
| Snafu777 | how can FAM kill the system? | 09:19 |
| Snafu777 | because by default, it will overwrite my sources list | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | But Sicelo, I would be very interested to know why it would kill the system? | 09:20 |
| Sicelo | you can't remove HAM. you can't even remove games :P | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | i did | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | apt-get purge | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | gone | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | p00f | 09:20 |
| Snafu777 | and u can remove games dude =) | 09:20 |
| Sicelo | Impressive. Anyway, removing HAM is a questionable thing to do. | 09:23 |
| Snafu777 | Not following? | 09:23 |
| Snafu777 | its a shitty application GUI, and it affects my sources list | 09:23 |
| Snafu777 | it tries to autoupdate | 09:23 |
| Snafu777 | the scum who invented it should be shot and hung and disemboweled | 09:24 |
| Snafu777 | by why do u say it should not be removed? whats yer basis? | 09:24 |
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| Sicelo | you can adjust the auto-update period | 09:25 |
| Snafu777 | i know | 09:25 |
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| Snafu777 | but its still affected (sources list) by ham | 09:25 |
| Snafu777 | which is BS | 09:25 |
| Snafu777 | a gui should not modify a file without permission | 09:25 |
| Snafu777 | But why do u say removing it would break the system? | 09:25 |
| Sicelo | i didn't. i said it's questionable. | 09:26 |
| Snafu777 | I don't agree man =) I appreciate the "advice" but its questionable advice at best, you can't tell somebody they shouldnt do something with a computer if u dont have a reasoning to back it up, that's never a good way to give advice | 09:27 |
| Snafu777 | U also said FAM can kill my system, why" | 09:28 |
| Snafu777 | ? | 09:28 |
| Sicelo | it has done that for other people. check the logs for this channel, and possibly TMO | 09:29 |
| * Snafu777 <~~~ All about making the N900 a pentest device in my pocket | 09:30 | |
| Sicelo | in any case, i suppose i'm unable to help with your particular case. | 09:30 |
| Snafu777 | No worries, I appreciate the advice anyways man =) | 09:31 |
| Sicelo | cool | 09:31 |
| Snafu777 | So do u do any hacking with yer N900 ? | 09:31 |
| Sicelo | pentesting? no | 09:31 |
| Snafu777 | Aw, yer missing out =) | 09:32 |
| Snafu777 | Its a heckuva system to do it from | 09:32 |
| Snafu777 | Just needs some tweaks and its perfect | 09:32 |
| Snafu777 | I can even use rj-45 on mine =) | 09:32 |
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| Sicelo | i know. i do use USB-host. | 09:32 |
| Sicelo | and i even boot debian wheezy on it | 09:32 |
| Snafu777 | Chuck Norris has an Intel CPU on an AMD motherboard. | 09:45 |
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| Snafu777 | So..... | 10:48 |
| Snafu777 | Sicelo: You were somewhat right my friend | 10:48 |
| Snafu777 | It doesnt break the system | 10:48 |
| Snafu777 | removing HAM | 10:48 |
| Snafu777 | but it prevents installation of certain packages via the missing of files | 10:48 |
| Snafu777 | Fixable? Yes.... Worth it, No...... | 10:49 |
| Snafu777 | So.... | 10:49 |
| Snafu777 | How do we get around HAM's bullshit... | 10:49 |
| Snafu777 | That is the question | 10:49 |
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| Snafu777 | /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list | 10:50 |
| Snafu777 | That file gets overwritten from time to time | 10:50 |
| Snafu777 | Does anyone on here know how to prevent that? | 10:50 |
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| kerio | Snafu777: it's not a file you're supposed to edit manually | 11:25 |
| kerio | make your own file in the same directory | 11:25 |
| kerio | or use /etc/apt/sources.list | 11:25 |
| kerio | HAM will pick up the repos in those files (and won't change them) | 11:26 |
| kerio | ~fapman | 11:26 |
| infobot | [fapman] Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever | 11:26 |
| kerio | it doesn't run the pre/post scripts correctly, as fas as i could see | 11:27 |
| Snafu777 | ooo | 11:27 |
| Snafu777 | feedback | 11:27 |
| Snafu777 | so i can drop /etc/apt/sources.list | 11:27 |
| Snafu777 | but will apt-get still use whats in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* | 11:27 |
| Snafu777 | Basically here is what I am trying to do | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | Trim some fat off the stock OS | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | HAM sucks, cuz its a slow GUI | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | I dont use GUIs | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | but people who will use the image i create will | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | therefore i need a nice GUI for them | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | ie... FAM | 11:28 |
| kerio | except that | 11:28 |
| kerio | ~fapman | 11:28 |
| infobot | [fapman] Faster Application Manager, a bad package manager that causes problems, don't use it, ever | 11:28 |
| Snafu777 | but yer telling me it breaks things.... and finally i get a reason why | 11:29 |
| Snafu777 | it doesnt process .deb preinst and post inst stuff | 11:29 |
| Snafu777 | correct>?< | 11:29 |
| Snafu777 | ~bleh | 11:29 |
| infobot | bleh means insert appropriate value here. see blah | 11:29 |
| Snafu777 | hmm | 11:29 |
| * Snafu777 hugs infotbot | 11:29 | |
| kerio | apt-get and any conforming package manager will use /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* | 11:29 |
| Snafu777 | ~blah | 11:29 |
| infobot | blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah | 11:29 |
| kerio | and yes, HAM is awful | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | i know about /etc/apt/sources.list, but the people who invented the N900 had some crazy ideas regarding FHS and their implementation thereof | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | ie... | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | 256MB nand...and placing / on it | 11:30 |
| kerio | set the autoupdate frequency to a year or so | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | yeah | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | fixed that issue | 11:30 |
| Snafu777 | via gconf | 11:31 |
| kerio | Snafu777: rootfs on a 230mb ubifs is fine, if you put usr somewhere else | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | nodz | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | rbinded =) | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | still though | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | shitty implementation | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | mounting /opt to /home/opt, etc.. | 11:31 |
| kerio | sadly, they fucked that up with the optification | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my n900 | 11:31 |
| Snafu777 | there is no better handheld pentest device | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | No better | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | Ill bitchslap the fool who says otherwise | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | But | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | Im trying to trim some fat =) | 11:32 |
| * Snafu777 asks for forgiveness, slightly drunk =) | 11:32 | |
| Snafu777 | Thanks for the why by the way kerio | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | I had input from another user earlier, but they couldnt explain the why part | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | u actually told me why | 11:32 |
| Snafu777 | so i appreciate that.... | 11:32 |
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| Snafu777 | tis good advice, vs, "they heard" from "that dude" who spoke with "that guy" who heard from "this fella" | 11:33 |
| kerio | packages that most definetely fail are, for instance, the various kernel flashers | 11:33 |
| Snafu777 | hmm | 11:33 |
| kerio | which sucks, because you tend to update (correctly) the modules at the same time, and then you reboot | 11:33 |
| Snafu777 | i can prolly google myself | 11:33 |
| Snafu777 | but can i tell apt-get NOT to look at /etc/apt/sources.list.d? | 11:34 |
| * Snafu777 <~~~ building a custom image to be distro'd out =) | 11:34 | |
| kerio | i suppose there's a way | 11:34 |
| Snafu777 | if the user wants to interact with a GUI, cool | 11:34 |
| Snafu777 | but apt-get is the way the target audience will react | 11:34 |
| Snafu777 | and having the sources overwritten is bullshit | 11:34 |
| Snafu777 | or having apt-get look in two places | 11:35 |
| kerio | they won't be overwritten dammit | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | in the n900's case | 11:35 |
| kerio | HAM will write its own file | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager is definately overwritten | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | and apt-get pulls from that | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | which is why i asked =) | 11:35 |
| kerio | and having multiple files in /etc/apt/sources.list.d is standard, really | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | yeah | 11:35 |
| Snafu777 | but writing something that will check for a file in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* and removing it prior to an apt-get instance is stupid, I want one source for the users | 11:36 |
| Snafu777 | prefered to have /etc/apt/sources.list | 11:36 |
| kerio | so disable every catalog in HAM and use sources.list | 11:36 |
| Snafu777 | but if apt-get looks in /etc/apt/sources.list.d as well, and i cant permanently delete that location | 11:36 |
| Snafu777 | then it fucks me =-) | 11:36 |
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| Snafu777 | but then that fucks the user who wants a gui =) | 11:36 |
| Snafu777 | I have to satisfy both kerio =) | 11:37 |
| kerio | no, HAM will use all the repos | 11:37 |
| Snafu777 | but will it not overwrite? | 11:37 |
| Snafu777 | via disabling every catalog in ham? | 11:37 |
| kerio | his own repos are editable from HAM and will be written unilaterally to hildon-application-manager.list | 11:37 |
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| kerio | the other repos will appear in the list but won't be editable | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | Ah | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | Tested and tried kerio ? | 11:38 |
| kerio | do your own testing dude | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | i do | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | but | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | it seems thats its a random timing for overwriting | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | i cant make it "kick" by opening HAM | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | it just does it | 11:38 |
| Snafu777 | of its own accord when it feels like | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | from what ive seen | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | which is why i ask =) | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | i figure its a timer via gconf somewhere | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | something of that nature | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | but | 11:39 |
| kerio | ham SHALL NOT write to any file other than his | 11:39 |
| kerio | ~2119 | 11:39 |
| infobot | The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119. | 11:39 |
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| Snafu777 | gtfoh infobot... I like the bot =) | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | ~slap | 11:39 |
| * infobot thinks snafu777 should be slapped | 11:39 | |
| Snafu777 | ~suckfuck | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | uh huh | 11:39 |
| Snafu777 | infobot wasnt expecting that one | 11:40 |
| kerio | once you disable every "catalog" in HAM, his repo file will be empty, just leave it there | 11:40 |
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| kerio | and add your own somewhere else | 11:40 |
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| Snafu777 | gotcha man | 11:41 |
| Snafu777 | u solved the issue | 11:41 |
| Snafu777 | I appreciate it much | 11:41 |
| Snafu777 | ~tickle | 11:41 |
| * infobot tickles % | 11:41 | |
| Snafu777 | ~stroke | 11:41 |
| kerio | it's what scratchbox does, after all | 11:41 |
| Snafu777 | never bothered to use scratchbox | 11:41 |
| Snafu777 | prefer to dev on the hardware itself via ssh | 11:42 |
| Snafu777 | and such.. | 11:42 |
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| Snafu777 | scratchbox is cool for some implications, but for ideas that revolve around hardware centric stuff (i.e. the wireless chipset) scratchbox cannot work | 11:42 |
| Snafu777 | But thank ya kerio | 11:42 |
| Snafu777 | You have solved my issue | 11:43 |
| Snafu777 | and I appreciate it much =) | 11:43 |
| Snafu777 | and ps.... Dont remove HAM =) It truly breaks shit via: /var/lib/dpkg/tmp.ci/preinst LINE 24 maemo-confirm-text issues | 11:43 |
| Snafu777 | ~ping google.com | 11:45 |
| infobot | pong google.com | 11:45 |
| Snafu777 | ~ping configitnow.com | 11:45 |
| infobot | pong configitnow.com | 11:45 |
| Snafu777 | hmm | 11:45 |
| Snafu777 | i wonder if he does... | 11:45 |
| * Snafu777 thinks he might could abuse infobot | 11:45 | |
| Snafu777 | ~slurp | 11:45 |
| infobot | Watches as any program is installed and turns it into an RPM. URL: http://students.vassar.edu/~jajohnst/slurp/ | 11:45 |
| Snafu777 | okay, sorry for the spam =) | 11:46 |
| Snafu777 | ill quit now | 11:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | ping Snafu777 | 11:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | ~ping Snafu777 | 11:47 |
| infobot | pong Snafu777 | 11:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | :) | 11:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | ~rape Snafu777 | 11:48 |
| * infobot takes Snafu777 behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams | 11:48 | |
| Snafu777 | whoa | 11:48 |
| Snafu777 | ~molest ZogG_laptop | 11:48 |
| Snafu777 | bah | 11:48 |
| Snafu777 | ~slap infobot | 11:48 |
| * infobot slaps infobot, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! | 11:48 | |
| Snafu777 | So... | 11:50 |
| Snafu777 | Anyone here use curl on their N900? | 11:50 |
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| Snafu777 | ~ping Snafu777 | 11:53 |
| infobot | pong Snafu777 | 11:53 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Snafu777: why do you need to use curl? | 11:59 |
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| Snafu777 | curl is a necesarry function bro =-) | 12:06 |
| Snafu777 | Its curl | 12:06 |
| Snafu777 | ... | 12:06 |
| ZogG_laptop | i know | 12:06 |
| ZogG_laptop | but still what do you mean by using it? | 12:06 |
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| Snafu777 | Curious if anyone here has curl on their n900 | 12:06 |
| Snafu777 | It took me a while how to figure out porting it properly to the n900 | 12:06 |
| Snafu777 | with support for ssl, etc.. | 12:06 |
| Snafu777 | dloading via the repos, breaks things | 12:07 |
| Snafu777 | kinda curious who on here perhaps used it | 12:07 |
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| Snafu777 | and if they had ssl support without having apt-get broke | 12:07 |
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| ZogG_laptop | Snafu777: i bet there are already ports of it | 12:13 |
| Snafu777 | Not successful ones =) | 12:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | i dunno | 12:13 |
| Snafu777 | try =) | 12:13 |
| Snafu777 | and then do apt-get update | 12:13 |
| Snafu777 | youll see | 12:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | i don't have n900 for a long time now :) | 12:13 |
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| Sicelo | hmm | 12:15 |
| luf | Snafu777: can you please more elaborate what's wrong with curl? | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | Do u use it? | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | The version that supports curl in the repo is very broken | 12:16 |
| kerio | worked for me | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | it destroys apt-get | 12:16 |
| kerio | but maybe the ssl is fucked up? | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | er | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | fml | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | drunk | 12:16 |
| luf | Snafu777: I'm the maintainer ... | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | the version that supports SSL is broke | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | Ah | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | Interesting | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | I have a fix for ya | 12:16 |
| Snafu777 | sb1 | 12:16 |
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| Snafu777 | ~kill Snafu777 | 13:26 |
| * infobot shoots a excited fluxpositrino gun at Snafu777 | 13:26 | |
| Snafu777 | ~snarf | 13:26 |
| infobot | Command-line URL retrieval tool with some unique features.. URL: http://www.xach.com/snarf/ | 13:26 |
| Snafu777 | ~Snafu | 13:27 |
| infobot | snafu is, like, Situation Normal: All fux0red up. See also fux0red. | 13:27 |
| * Snafu777 debates about the uses for abusing infobot | 13:27 | |
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| kerio | the scriptkiddiness is strong in that one | 13:42 |
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| kerio | [general notice] if you installed the new zlib1g from cssu-devel, make sure you've also installed the latest libxml2 from cssu-devel, or you'll get a bootloop when you reboot | 13:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | wow, if I ever done something useful in my life, it seems it's been h-e-n | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which same time makes me a tad sad I did give up on henine | 14:53 |
| merlin1991 | henine? | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [general notice] nobody installs something from cssu-devel | 14:57 |
| merlin1991 | hm why that? | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hen for N9 | 14:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: (cssu-devel?) because it's a sure way to break your system | 14:58 |
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| merlin1991 | atm it's sorta safe again | 14:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's like suggesting to camp on the shooting range | 14:59 |
| merlin1991 | well it does say that in the description :D | 14:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio dropped a [general notice] of brilliant nonsense here, that sounds like everybody installs from cssu-devel nowadays. So I had to correct that | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | emphasis on "here" | 15:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this is not even #maemo-ssu! | 15:02 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i said *if* | 15:02 |
| kerio | i said *if*! | 15:02 |
| kerio | conditional! | 15:02 |
| kerio | nd | 15:03 |
| kerio | whoops | 15:03 |
| luf | DocScrutinizer05: just masochist tester/devel installs from cssu-devel. But without that people we can't make progress :D For sude don't install from cssu-devel if you don't know what you're doing ;) But noone is too strong. | 15:04 |
| kerio | and system breakages should be reported, even for stuff like cssu-devel | 15:04 |
| luf | *sure | 15:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "if you're camping in square C-6 of shooting range, don't forget to also get your kevlar vest" | 15:04 |
| kerio | indeed | 15:04 |
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| kerio | because there was a metadata problem and the C-6 square didn't properly depend on the kevlar vest | 15:04 |
| kerio | breakages are expected, not /deserved/ | 15:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "oh hey, they even give instructions on HOW to camp there, so it must be safe" | 15:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I see your intentions, and they are good. You're ignoring the nature of general luser though | 15:07 |
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| kerio | [general notice] if, against everyone's better judgement, you happened to install zlib1g from cssu-devel lately, check that you've also updated libxml2 in the mean time or your n900 will blow up | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | better | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though I generally tend to just state that users MUST NOT (rfc2119) install XY, and if they already did, please go to #maemo-ssu and ask for help immediately. Installing anything from that repository is generally deprecated for the normal user. | 15:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | re >>/deserved/<<: if somebody installs from CSSU-devel but doesn't notice a big fat WARNING on #maemo-ssu, then this luser indeed deserves what he gets | 15:18 |
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| jade | i agree | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW your [general notice] would be absolutely correct on #maemo-ssu, but here I feel it's more dangerous than helpful | 15:19 |
| kerio | [general notice] if, against everyone's better judgement, you happened to install something from cssu-devel, SUCKS TO BE YOU | 15:21 |
| kerio | like this? | 15:21 |
| kerio | somehow i think it's worse | 15:22 |
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| Sicelo | lol you two :p | 15:25 |
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| jade | :) | 15:26 |
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| Pali | DocScrutinizer05, can we use new maemo wiki on new server? | 15:45 |
| Pali | or not? | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I think we can | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you already got a etc7hosts to share? | 15:47 |
| Pali | ok, so doing: 'echo 188.117.59.202 wiki.maemo.org >> /etc/hosts' | 15:47 |
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| kerio | Pali: yay | 15:54 |
| kerio | wiki | 15:54 |
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| kerio | Pali: will changes to that wiki be saved? | 15:57 |
| Pali | kerio, I think yes | 15:57 |
| Pali | try ti | 15:57 |
| kerio | no, i mean | 15:57 |
| kerio | we're going to keep that wiki | 15:57 |
| kerio | not the old one | 15:57 |
| Pali | kerio, that is ip addresses of new wiki server | 15:58 |
| Pali | where was migration | 15:58 |
| Pali | and now waiting until Nokia update A recodrs | 15:58 |
| kerio | dammit where's the cssu changelog | 15:58 |
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| kerio | oh, here we go | 15:58 |
| Pali | but I already updated my /etc/hosts :D | 15:58 |
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| * kerio shakes his fist at merlin1991, not properly writing the CSSU version in the changelog | 15:59 | |
| kerio | "this is the new version" | 15:59 |
| Sicelo | Pali: lol, now i flushed my /etc/hosts. please paste yours if you don't mind | 15:59 |
| Pali | Sicelo, where? on n900? | 16:00 |
| Sicelo | yes | 16:00 |
| Pali | just restart phone, upstart will generate new after reboot | 16:00 |
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| Sicelo | wow. thanks | 16:01 |
| kerio | ok, i assume that the changelog with no version is for T6 | 16:02 |
| Pali | $ OPI=`which osso-product-info`; if [ ! -f /etc/hostname -o ! -s /etc/hostname -o ! -f /etc/hosts -o ! -s /etc/hosts ]; then hostname="`$OPI -qOSSO_PRODUCT_SHORT_NAME | sed 's/ /-/g'`"; echo $hostname > /etc/hostname; echo "127.0.0.1 $hostname localhost" > /etc/hosts; chmod 644 /etc/hosts; fi | 16:04 |
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| Pali | this is used in /etc/init.d/rcS ^^^^^ | 16:04 |
| Sicelo | btw Pali, you ever noticed the bug that you can't ping 127.0.0.1 if you are on cellular internet? | 16:05 |
| kerio | Sicelo: that's a nasty bug :s | 16:05 |
| Pali | no, never | 16:05 |
| Sicelo | unless you use ifconfig to down, then up the interface.. | 16:05 |
| Pali | $ ifup lo | 16:06 |
| Sicelo | iirc only ifconfig works.. not ifup | 16:07 |
| Sicelo | anyway, i suppose it's not so important. but still weird | 16:08 |
| kerio | meh, it's merlin1991's job anyway | 16:09 |
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| merlin1991 | kerio on tmo there is the changelog for T6 T7 and T7.1 :D | 16:10 |
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| kerio | merlin1991: yeah but it's ugly | 16:10 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: also http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/mp-fremantle-community-pr/blobs/master/debian/changelog is ususally helpfull | 16:10 |
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| kerio | like, the rest of the changelog is all in tables and with proper capitalisation | 16:11 |
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| merlin1991 | guess what I do each time :D | 16:11 |
| kerio | paste the changelog and wait for someone else to format it properly? | 16:11 |
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| merlin1991 | ususally I format it on the wiki when I put it in | 16:12 |
| kerio | well, i don't want to infringe on your style | 16:12 |
| merlin1991 | rofl | 16:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools | 16:58 |
| infobot | [jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, jrtools is <reply> echo 188.117.59.202 wiki.maemo.org >> /etc/hosts; http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 16:58 |
| infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools | 16:58 |
| infobot | echo 188.117.59.202 wiki.maemo.org >> /etc/hosts; http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 16:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | infobot: no, jrtools is <reply> cp /etc/hosts /etc/hosts-maemobackup && echo "188.117.59.202 wiki.maemo.org" >> /etc/hosts; http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 17:02 |
| infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 | 17:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.cloud-7.de/migration-project/DNS-TBD.html | 17:11 |
| * freemangordon read #maemo-meeting logs | 17:12 | |
| freemangordon | wow, great progress :) | 17:12 |
| freemangordon | seems after all there is a light at the end of the tunnel :) | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how would I emulate a CNAME DNS in my /etc/hosts? | 17:19 |
| kerio | you wouldn't | 17:19 |
| kerio | no, actually you would | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thought as much | 17:19 |
| kerio | i think you can just put the hostname instead of the ip | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really? | 17:20 |
| thedead1440 | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/637994/can-i-use-the-etc-hosts-file-to-configure-an-alias | 17:20 |
| kerio | idk, try it | 17:20 |
| kerio | aww :( | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: \o/ | 17:20 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it says you can't | 17:20 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what for, btw? | 17:21 |
| kerio | the hosts file is just used when resolving names into addresses | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess for now adding emulated A records instead of CNAME records to /etc/hosts is all I can do | 17:23 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: of course it's not | 17:25 |
| kerio | run a local DNS server | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha, yeah | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for you and all the remaining 60k of community - on one of my spare N900 | 17:26 |
| thedead1440 | actually that link has a sh script that could be run as a cron job saving the need to have a local DNS server... | 17:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | https://bugs.maemo.org/ "Connection to Server Refused" mhm | 17:42 |
| Luke-Jr | DocScrutinizer05: open a bug for it | 17:44 |
| kerio | looooooool | 17:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | for your convenience: wget http://maemo.cloud-7.de/migration-project/DNS-TBD-.etc.hosts >>/etc/hosts | 17:47 |
| jonwil | So basically things are in place except that we are still waiting for Nokia to get its ass into gear and point the DNS at the new locations for this stuff? | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | partially at least | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which is muuuuuch better than I been expecting | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | forgot to insert a tag for later easy removal | 17:52 |
| jonwil | so is the issue just that the right people at Nokia are slow/lazy/still on holidays/whatever or are there actual issues here (e.g. legal guys need to do things) | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the latter, with HiFo | 17:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I assume | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dnsmaster@nokia.com doesn't answer Nemein inquiries | 17:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | alas HiFo states those negotiations are non-public according to Nokia's explicit request, so we have to trust in our board to "do the right thing" here | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | extreme responsibility | 18:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I wish them all the best, and good councilors/experts they can check with, to make sure their approach is the best we can do | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all that's about *lawyers* | 18:04 |
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| kerio | the negotiation is non-public, but the final result can't be, right? | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and DNS is only a small chunk of the whole package to agree upon | 18:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I bet the final result will get published by HiFo | 18:08 |
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| jonwil | I would imagine that negotiations would probably include the right to redistribute various (c) Nokia content, rights to use Nokia trademarks in certain cases where HiFo and the community needs to be able to use those trademarks and who knows what else | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 18:10 |
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| jonwil | There is a thread on tmo where people are supposed to be listing all things related to Maemo/MeeGo/Harmattan/N900/N950/N9 that are not on *.maemo.org but where ownership/distribution rights need to be transferred to the community so I imagine the stuff there factors into it too | 18:12 |
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| * SpeedEvil imagines what a full release of all sources on open licences would do. | 18:13 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I think - even while generally non-public - HiFo *should* (B)CC at least council on their negotiations, since it's really way too much responsibility for just 2 people to get the whole FOSS spirit and all the minuscule details about each single domain right, without some sparring/feedback from other guys | 18:13 |
| SpeedEvil | (probably little) | 18:13 |
| SpeedEvil | (and Impossible) | 18:13 |
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| jonwil | Off the top of my head I can easily list off about 10-20 currently-closed packages that would enable great things if they were open-sourced. In saying that though reading the list at http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages I can see valid reasons why a fair whack of them remain closed | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha, opensource Nokia blobs, dream on, this is NOT about such miracles | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I honestly hope HiFo did get that as well | 18:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | worst thing that could happen: Nokia simply stopping negotiations about transfer of maemo.org domains and content due to HiFo asking for and insisting in too much, that Nokia simply can't do | 18:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | we'll blame thedead1440 then, for writing a customer mail to elop and thus "making evil authorities in nokia aware" of the maemo issue ;-P | 18:22 |
| * thedead1440 hides | 18:22 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: how DARE you? | 18:22 |
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| thedead1440 | i wrote it from a consumer not from maemo and highlighted 3 issues including maemo :S | 18:23 |
| thedead1440 | hehe | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: just kidding, I hope you noticed that | 18:23 |
| thedead1440 | ofcourse :p | 18:23 |
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| thedead1440 | its after all very convenient to say 2 drafts were what was wanted and due to the email the 3rd draft was watered down | 18:24 |
| kerio | and you wrote it to elop? | 18:24 |
| thedead1440 | of course | 18:25 |
| kerio | tough shit, it probably got nowhere close to him | 18:25 |
| thedead1440 | i wrote a long rant to him; its old news | 18:25 |
| kerio | it was *long* too? | 18:25 |
| thedead1440 | it got to him most probably | 18:25 |
| kerio | then the small chance that he could've stumbled upon it is actually 0 | 18:25 |
| thedead1440 | he replies to L920 users and mnb too before | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually when HiFo sends back first contract with comments what should get changed, and gets a 2nd draft with worse conditions, it's not necessarily thedead1440 who made the lawyers reconsider. It might as well have been the comments HiFo added to the first draft that made Nokia lawyers look at some cases once again and suddenly notice there's something that slipped their attention in first draft | 18:25 |
| kerio | why wouldn't nokia want to just get rid of all the maemo cruft? | 18:26 |
| thedead1440 | kerio: i didn't say i'm thedead1440 and referring to maemo but I gave my real name saying as a Nokia consumer some issues were troubling like stopping paid apps for n9 being listed in china etc | 18:26 |
| kerio | <elop> it's ok, we won't stop apps for windows phone being listed in china | 18:27 |
| thedead1440 | my main issues were with device support for existing devices with valid warranties | 18:27 |
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| thedead1440 | maemo was one para in it highlighting in the grand scheme of things device support | 18:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and my last post pretty much explains why I think HiFo *ought* share and discuss their negotiations with Nokia with council | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 18:30 |
| thedead1440 | well DocScrutinizer05 i think i should post my email on the ML to get rid of suspicions | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and my last post pretty much explains why I think HiFo *ought* share and discuss with council their negotiations with Nokia | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, probably a very good idea | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: ^^^ | 18:31 |
| thedead1440 | i'm contemplating it but then what i wrote won't remain private so weighing against it | 18:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, didn't you answer to the public(?) bashing by HiFo already? | 18:32 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: no srsly, why would nokia stop the negotiations? :( | 18:33 |
| thedead1440 | but i asked if they wanted the email they didn't reply on that | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or was this in a closed ML once again? | 18:33 |
| thedead1440 | nope doc it was cc'ed to board & council | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | both are closed | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aka non-public | 18:34 |
| thedead1440 | releasing it just invites more flaming against me, I think... I'm an individual after all and its very easy to go on TMO and say due to thedead1440's email to Elop we have lost this and that | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so as long as HiFo bashing against you is non-public, I recommend you shouldn't answer it in public either | 18:35 |
| thedead1440 | cue massive outrage bla bla | 18:35 |
| thedead1440 | exactly that's what I was thinking too | 18:35 |
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| * jonwil does his best to avoid political and legal crap | 18:37 | |
| jonwil | I just want to write code :) | 18:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((<kerio> why wouldn't nokia want to just get rid of all the maemo cruft?)) kerio, HiFo is thinking BIG, really BIIIIG, they want further all sorts of maemo-derived and generally open source projects, maemo itself is just a small aspect on their agenda | 18:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: so I'm afraid they demand Nokia to do things they can't do, like opensourcing whole maemo (something we didn't manage even in times when there was actually personal in Nokia who knew what maemo actually is) | 18:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | other possible points of argue are about commercializing maemo trademark and sourcecode | 18:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | as well as meego and whatnot else | 18:41 |
| thedead1440 | DocScrutinizer05 explain "commercializing maemo trademark and sourcecode" you mean HiFo is asking for rights to do so? | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I sometimes think HiFo is overestimating their own power and relevance to entities like Nokia, jolla, etc | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: if they would, this for sure might cause massive trouble in getting any agreement with Nokia | 18:43 |
| kerio | well, let's tell them to stfu | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whom? HiFo? I don't even know what they're saying right now, so I don't think STFU is the right advice | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rather my advice is: "consider doing frequent regular reality-check with your colleagues from maemo council" | 18:47 |
| thedead1440 | btw DocScrutinizer05 what do you make of Jolla's response to HiFo? | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the answered? | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they* | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to the "open letter"? | 18:48 |
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| thedead1440 | DocScrutinizer05 http://hildonfoundation.org/open-letter-from-the-hildon-foundation-to-jolla/#comment-41 | 18:49 |
| M4rtinK | if its really them though :) | 18:50 |
| thedead1440 | M4rtinK: its them they tweeted about it yesterday | 18:50 |
| M4rtinK | oh, nice | 18:50 |
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| thedead1440 | M4rtinK: https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/287237299794739200 | 18:51 |
| kerio | "we're unlike, in the sense that we eventually want to make money from it" | 18:52 |
| kerio | how evil | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: well, it's what I've expected | 18:53 |
| thedead1440 | what do you think they are saying? | 18:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo is offering "services" that they basically can't deliver, since those "services" are from *community* not HiFo | 18:55 |
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| wmarone_ | I'm failing to see what's evil here? | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing, in my book | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's just that HiFo can't offer any service of value to Jolla, other than putting them on their "supporters" page | 18:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so if Jolla would decide to fund HiFo/maemo, they'd do for PR, not to get any service from HiFo | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unlike mer/nemo project, which is actually doing a service that Jolla pretty much depends on | 18:59 |
| thedead1440 | and they are not interested in such PR as of now? So they said thanks but no thanks in a nice way? Is that what you mean DocScrutinizer05 | 18:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the next comment (#42) makes the misconception quite obvious | 19:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | thedead1440: I think they just said "no service offered by HiFo to Jolla" in a nice and friendly way. Not even mentioning if they might consider funding for PR or for mere goodwill | 19:01 |
| thedead1440 | ah ok ;) | 19:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW that's an answer from Jolla's project lead, not from Jolla's PR department | 19:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [quote joris, #42] >>You will need the support that the Hildon Foundation is offering you! << Probably not | 19:05 |
| M4rtinK | I think it should been worded more directly | 19:05 |
| Sicelo | +1 | 19:05 |
| M4rtinK | HiFO: we have a nice mobile user & dev community in need of hosting | 19:06 |
| thedead1440 | M4rtinK: IMO a more direct reply would have the ability to put off some Jolla fans who are first maemo fans | 19:06 |
| * freemangordon wonders what HiFo was expecting | 19:06 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nfc | 19:06 |
| M4rtinK | pay us hosting and it is quite likely that the community will see you in favourable light & you might get quite a few longtime developers interested :) | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-01-05 17:42:43] <DocScrutinizer05> I sometimes think HiFo is overestimating their own power and relevance to entities like Nokia, jolla, etc | 19:06 |
| freemangordon | TBH I'd rather asked Canonical | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | M4rtinK: +1 | 19:07 |
| freemangordon | (yeah, I know they are evil :P ) | 19:07 |
| Sicelo | :D | 19:07 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 gasps | 19:07 | |
| M4rtinK | HiFo: oh and we have a really nice forum up and running & migh consider adding a Jolla section to it & the maling lists | 19:07 |
| thedead1440 | with the addition of Sailfish on xda i don't think they will need a tmo equivalent too | 19:07 |
| M4rtinK | </HiFo> | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | M4rtinK: +1 | 19:08 |
| M4rtinK | hmm, I would rather like this to stay on tmo :) | 19:08 |
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| thedead1440 | i think all of us would want it on tmo | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | Jolla? | 19:08 |
| M4rtinK | it would IMO get drowned in the xda traffic | 19:08 |
| thedead1440 | but with it now on xda i just have a feeling jolla prefer that option more | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | Don;t count me in | 19:09 |
| M4rtinK | I like how you can just keep up with what is happening by watching the active thread list in upper left :) | 19:09 |
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| thedead1440 | M4rtinK: yup that's whats best of tmo | 19:10 |
| M4rtinK | just checked out the xda forum | 19:11 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 recalls his question during public meego foundation meeting "what about the bootloader? Will meego define it has to be open?" <meego>A: "the bootloader is not our domain, ask product manufs about that" | 19:11 | |
| M4rtinK | they just have an useless listing of current portal articles on the right | 19:11 |
| M4rtinK | at least they support "thanks" :) | 19:11 |
| freemangordon | thedead1440: AIUI Sailfish is Meltemi reborn. I don;t think we (maemos) have ever been a target user group for Meltemi | 19:11 |
| thedead1440 | freemangordon: thats evil :p | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | let it be evel then | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | :) | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | *evil | 19:12 |
| thedead1440 | with that comment you brought them down several notches :p | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | but sounds about true | 19:12 |
| thedead1440 | it doesn't have landscape for starters so yes quite true | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | and it is focused on China ;) | 19:13 |
| thedead1440 | haha | 19:13 |
| * thedead1440 feels so many evolution OSes this year yet none that are competent in all aspects | 19:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | stskeeps has the absolutely right *intentions*, and so far I see no indications that Jolla is not following his path | 19:14 |
| M4rtinK | well, I get about 90% of all downloads from China for the apps I have in Ovi :) | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we'll see if that is here to stay, though | 19:14 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: "intensions"? elaborate please | 19:16 |
| freemangordon | *intentions | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what i'm worried about most is a possible tivoization of jolla's phone | 19:16 |
| freemangordon | BTW I am not saying going Meltemi way is a bad think. It is just that we are not invited to the party ;) | 19:17 |
| freemangordon | *thing | 19:17 |
| thedead1440 | freemangordon: we as in not including harmattan? | 19:18 |
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| freemangordon | including HARM | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meltemi been about downsizing maemo/linux to match featurephones aiui. I don't see this in mer7nemo/sailfish | 19:19 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: Where did you see enough sailfish to decide? | 19:19 |
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| thedead1440 | well did you see meltemi doc? | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I see the definition of sailfish | 19:20 |
| freemangordon | I saw a mediaplayer and something that looks like a dialer | 19:20 |
| freemangordon | (in sailfish) | 19:20 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC Jolla stated (or was this just a rumor?) they are not interested in low-end due to profit margins ? | 19:20 |
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| thedead1440 | freemangordon: thats all what they always show :D | 19:20 |
| freemangordon | I know | 19:20 |
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| M4rtinK | thedead1440: meltemi doc ? :) | 19:20 |
| thedead1440 | doc == DocScrutinizer05 :D | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's not | 19:21 |
| thedead1440 | hehe :p | 19:21 |
| freemangordon | M4rtinK: sure, that is what they say, but I wonder what is the market in China for high-end devices | 19:22 |
| freemangordon | And what marings can you put there | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess that's irrelevant, since - I suspect - their VC comes from same companies, so they already got the money from that china adventure | 19:23 |
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| thedead1440 | do they have the money? wasn't the amount just pledged but to be released only in stages | 19:24 |
| freemangordon | Even if the conspiracy theory is true and it is the China govenrnment behind them I don;t believe the china authorities want to put high-end FOSS linux device in the slaves' hands | 19:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and, as elaborated recently on this very channel - when any chinese company gets a completely open system for their phone, then it's easy for them to lock it down to their liking | 19:25 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: iirc Jolla is EU based | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 19:26 |
| freemangordon | just thinking... if it will be that easy. Locking that is | 19:26 |
| freemangordon | THough you are most probably right | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it *is* that easy, tivoization is a standard feature on every SOC nowadays that you simply need to activate | 19:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | et voila: completely open / FOSS system (or maybe not) that anyway no normal user can change | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see HARM | 19:28 |
| thedead1440 | tivoization of sub-standard OS is what Jolla might end up | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically, though HARM is harmless (pun intended) | 19:28 |
| freemangordon | sure. but I think the whole point is not running another OS on Jollaphone, but running sailfish on another devices | 19:28 |
| Sicelo | ~tivoization | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~wiki tivoization | 19:29 |
| infobot | At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{POV|date=November 2012}} 'Tivoization' ({{IPAc-en|Ë|t|iË|v|oÊ|ɨ|Ë|z|eɪ|Ê|Én}}) is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license (like the GPL), but uses hardware restrictions to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term in reference to TiVo's u | 19:29 |
| Sicelo | hmm. thanks | 19:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so, let's wait and see if Jolla's first phone comes with "sharks with lasers" | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I can't see anything bad in sailfish yet, from the general policy aspect POV | 19:38 |
| thedead1440 | i can see from the UI though | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a completely different topic and I tend to agree here | 19:39 |
| thedead1440 | and if its limited to 9 apps multi-tasking, i wonder if it means actually a more locked down OS than thought | 19:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's probably too much "a phone" for me to become my cup of tea, much like HARM | 19:40 |
| thedead1440 | worse than harm imo | 19:40 |
| M4rtinK | well, it looks more like just an unfinished design than something really HARMful :) | 19:43 |
| thedead1440 | ^^^hopefully | 19:43 |
| M4rtinK | If they release it like this & the GUI is not open enough to extend by the community | 19:45 |
| M4rtinK | well, that would be bad :) | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess Jolla will publish a sailfish that's open but rudimentary, and whoever over at china will do exactly what Nokia did: add closed blob skin apps and other shite, call it a product and tivoize it | 19:47 |
| thedead1440 | so emperor with new clothes but maybe of a slightly lower quality? | 19:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we'll see | 19:48 |
| M4rtinK | isn't that also how Android works ? | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik, never used any android device | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and by the life of mine I can't remember stskeep's answer to my question how sailfish manages to deliver on their claim that it takes them one nightshift to port sailfish to arbitrary new hw. I suspected they are exploiting android drivers like RIL (for modem) and GFX etc | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik not all RIL implementations are open source | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think some answer been "we use ofono" which doesn't really answer my question | 19:53 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: anything can be done in a nightshift, if you have enough people :P | 19:54 |
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| kerio | and enough coffee, ofc | 19:54 |
| Pali | do somebody know if jabber account configuration UI is open? | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, born after one nightshift, with 4600 mothers and 58m^3 coffe involved | 19:55 |
| Pali | in that UI is missing config option for jabber resource priority | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: no you can't | 19:55 |
| Pali | but priority can be configured via some command line tool | 19:55 |
| Pali | (nokia fixed that bug only on half) | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: since conversation bandwidth between developers is limited to what human brain and mouth can do | 19:56 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: that's only because human birth is inefficient and not easily parallelizable | 19:56 |
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| kerio | just have a cluster of inexpensive moms | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so is writing code | 19:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | if one developer needs 5 minutes do write a function, you don't see 300 developers writing same function in one second | 19:58 |
| kerio | but you can write multiple functions in 5 minutes! | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but then they are not integrated | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they will be just a bunch of useless unrelated functions | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aka windows - SCNR | 19:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and after those 5 min you got 300 functions that will take each single one of your devels 10 min to understand and another 15 minutes to integrate into own code, 300^2 * 25min | 20:01 |
| kerio | have you considered the coffee, though? i don't see the coffee in your analysis | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /300 devels = still 150h | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, *coffe = 180h | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then first debugging cycle starts | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eventually your nightshift is over | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so... [2013-01-05 18:55:49] <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: no you can't | 20:05 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: hrmpf | 20:05 |
| kerio | ok, remove the coffee and add meth | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 300h | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and 5 fatalities | 20:06 |
| kerio | why is adding performance-enhancing drugs *increasing* the time? | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which might help to speed up the process ;-P | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | because quality of code suffers a lot | 20:07 |
| kerio | ok, remove the meth and add weed | 20:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anybody did further tests with my little convenience thingie above? | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-01-05 16:47:36] <DocScrutinizer05> for your convenience: wget http://maemo.cloud-7.de/migration-project/DNS-TBD-.etc.hosts >>/etc/hosts | 20:10 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: you suck | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks | 20:10 |
| kerio | wget saves files in the current directory | 20:10 |
| kerio | all you're doing is appending a nice progress bar to /etc/hosts | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, you're absolutely right | 20:11 |
| kerio | use curl | 20:11 |
| kerio | or the appropriate wget option | 20:11 |
| Pali | $ wget http://maemo.cloud-7.de/migration-project/DNS-TBD-.etc.hosts -q -O - >> /etc/hosts | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll leave that up to you then ;-) | 20:11 |
| Pali | run ^^^^ | 20:11 |
| kerio | is curl preinstalled? | 20:11 |
| kerio | Pali: why the -q? | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on my desktop PC? SURE! | 20:12 |
| kerio | won't wget know to avoid outputting anything but the file? | 20:12 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: that's not what i meant and you know ti | 20:12 |
| kerio | *it | 20:12 |
| Pali | because you do not want to write some progressbar to /etc/hosts :D | 20:12 |
| Pali | and busybox is stupid and can use stdout for progressbar.... | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~messybox | 20:12 |
| infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils | 20:12 |
| kerio | hm, i have gnu wget | 20:13 |
| kerio | in /usr/bin, what the hell | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no friggin messybox on my PC, and for sure I didn't think of N900 when I posted above workaround (though it should apply *in principle*) | 20:13 |
| kerio | Pali: are you sure wget isn't just gnu wget? | 20:13 |
| kerio | oh, it's not | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wget isn't messybox | 20:14 |
| kerio | wget is just... not there? apparently | 20:14 |
| Pali | kerio, there is also wget in some busybox | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wget isn't even installed per default on fremantle afaik | 20:14 |
| kerio | there's wget in sdk/tools and in extras-devel | 20:14 |
| Pali | but I do not know if nokia compiled wget aplet into our busybox | 20:14 |
| kerio | not sure about other extras | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe bauer-messybox has wget | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | std messybox doesn't | 20:15 |
| kerio | wget: applet not found | 20:15 |
| kerio | the powah busybox does, ofc | 20:15 |
| kerio | and the progress bar is outputted to stderr, even in busybox wget | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wget comes with about 50% of pkgs in extras | 20:16 |
| kerio | heh | 20:16 |
| Pali | we can be happy, that we can install GNU utils | 20:16 |
| Pali | on some routers there is *only* busybox | 20:16 |
| kerio | we could've been happier if they were preinstalled :) | 20:16 |
| Pali | or on androids there is no GNU... | 20:17 |
| kerio | also, my router probably has enough space to install the whole coreutils | 20:17 |
| Pali | and my router is tivoized :-( | 20:17 |
| Pali | no way to install telnet or ssh... | 20:17 |
| Pali | I got source code from cisco, but that tarballs are useless | 20:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | YIKES! http://maemo.org/packages/ looks but ugly without proper static.maemo.org | 20:18 |
| Pali | router upgrade only signed firmware image... | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now how the heck would I access "normal" maemo.org with that etc/hosts in place? | 20:19 |
| kerio | well, change the hosts file | 20:19 |
| kerio | Pali: have you tried using the emergency tftp transfer thing? | 20:20 |
| kerio | usually those aren't signed | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, I already anticipated I'll need some shell cmd to swap /etc/hosts and /etc/hosts-maemobackup | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | GRRRRRRR | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I'd appreciate some help on getting the best out of this inerim bandaid solution | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | interim even | 20:22 |
| kerio | /etc/hosts-new and /etc/hosts-old | 20:22 |
| kerio | and then cp the one you want | 20:22 |
| kerio | (also make sure to shift+refresh, firefox has its own dns cache too) | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, kerio. That's about the level of development I can do when I'm awake and put much effort in | 20:23 |
| Sicelo | kerio: is it possible to de-activate firefox cache? | 20:24 |
| kerio | clearly, it's because of not enough coffee | 20:24 |
| kerio | Sicelo: i'm... not sure you really want that | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm more wondering if something could get improved in the patched etc/hosts | 20:24 |
| kerio | besides, what would that even mean? | 20:24 |
| kerio | do you want a dns request for each connection? | 20:24 |
| kerio | if the server doesn't support http 1.1, you're in for a treat | 20:24 |
| kerio | and a ban from your dns server, probably | 20:24 |
| Sicelo | i could probably run dnsmasq | 20:24 |
| kerio | Sicelo: network.dnsCacheExpiration 0 | 20:25 |
| kerio | says some random website | 20:25 |
| Sicelo | the issue is.. my internet it terrible... and firefox doesn't seem to take well to that. while other applications don't seem to mind too much | 20:25 |
| kerio | <exaggeration>to be fair, google dns is probably faster than firefox's cache</exaggeration> | 20:27 |
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| Sicelo | hmm, that key doesn't seem to exist on 17.0.1 | 20:28 |
| kerio | you have to add it | 20:28 |
| kerio | or someting | 20:28 |
| kerio | *something | 20:28 |
| Sicelo | oh | 20:28 |
| kerio | there's a GracePeriod too | 20:28 |
| kerio | i set both to 0 | 20:29 |
| kerio | it doesn't seem to be slower | 20:29 |
| kerio | (osx does dns caching too) | 20:29 |
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| Pali | kerio, ftfp accept only signed image too :-( | 20:34 |
| Pali | *tftp | 20:34 |
| fizzie | My router is kind of similar, except its web admin interface full of shell injection holes (sprintf(s, "iptables ... %s ...", from_http_form), system(s)) and that's the only way to run anything unofficial on it. (Plus there's no sources for it anywhere.) | 20:35 |
| fizzie | (The manufacturer firmware has a telnet admin interface that has a "sh" command to drop into busybox shell, but this ISP-customized version has been changed to not accept the same accounts/passwords the web admin interface does.) | 20:36 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm stuck on my DSL router, because it has a comedy but | 20:37 |
| SpeedEvil | bug | 20:37 |
| SpeedEvil | the exchange can request the modem train with a given SNR. | 20:37 |
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| SpeedEvil | sometimes, for a reason I don't understand, it asks for 20dB or so ,margin, which kills speed. | 20:38 |
| SpeedEvil | the router should only be able to be set to a higher margin than is requested. | 20:38 |
| SpeedEvil | but, if asked for a margin of 65530, it in fact sets less due to an overflow error. | 20:39 |
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| Pali | fizzie, I tried more ping or similar injections, but nothing worked... | 21:20 |
| Pali | seems that cisco devs doing their job very good... | 21:20 |
| kerio | Pali: well, it's usually linksys that likes users running their own firmware :) | 21:22 |
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| NIN101 | http://206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/ irrelevant new rescueOS release with tiny changes in case someone cares. | 21:41 |
| Sicelo | i do :-) | 21:42 |
| kerio | ^_^ | 21:42 |
| kerio | waaaaaaaaaaait | 21:43 |
| kerio | a menu? :s | 21:43 |
| NIN101 | hmm? | 21:43 |
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| kerio | what is this, Super Happy Fun Recovery Time OS? | 21:43 |
| kerio | >:c | 21:43 |
| NIN101 | just 3 yes/no questions. | 21:43 |
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| kerio | (the scripts to do those three things later are still in /rescueOS, right?) | 21:44 |
| NIN101 | of course. | 21:44 |
| kerio | NIN101: where should the wifi firmware be stored in? /lib/firmware ? | 21:46 |
| NIN101 | yes. | 21:47 |
| kerio | NIN101: also, do you remember if there's a way to type ESC? | 21:47 |
| NIN101 | no clue | 21:47 |
| kerio | hm, can the image be mounted read-write? | 21:49 |
| kerio | yep | 21:49 |
| kerio | oh, nope | 21:50 |
| NIN101 | mount tmpfs over /lib/firmware | 21:50 |
| NIN101 | ok in /rescueOS there is also a script which steals everything automatically from maemo. | 21:51 |
| kerio | NIN101: no, i wanted to modify the .img | 21:51 |
| NIN101 | well in the end it's a cramfs imagine which you can unpack somehow and then recreate. | 21:53 |
| kerio | yeah, yeah | 21:54 |
| kerio | it's not that important anyway | 21:54 |
| kerio | if you blow up the maemo rootfs you have to reflash anyway | 21:54 |
| freemangordon | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1311223#post1311223 | 21:55 |
| freemangordon | another CA down | 21:55 |
| NIN101 | yeah, the broken concept of CAs is falling apart. | 21:55 |
| kerio | haha, TÜRKTRUST is the first cert in the list in Settings | 21:56 |
| kerio | Pali: which parameters does NOLO give to the kernel when it's loaded and booted with an initrd via flasher? | 21:58 |
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| Pali | kerio, same params as for normal kernel | 22:34 |
| kerio | Pali: how does it know to use the initrd then? | 22:35 |
| Pali | it append atag about initfs existance (with address in memory) | 22:36 |
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| kerio | i see | 22:36 |
| kerio | ...so i should be able to use uboot without a special cmdline, right? | 22:36 |
| Pali | why not? | 22:37 |
| kerio | idk, the item file *you* gave me had "rootdelay root=/dev/ram0" as the cmdline | 22:37 |
| Pali | if kernel has not compiled root= param (to boot from initfs) then you need to provide it | 22:38 |
| Pali | otherwise kernel trying to boot from mtd rootfs ubifs... | 22:38 |
| Pali | note that (last) uboot generating atags | 22:38 |
| Pali | it not reusing them from nolo | 22:39 |
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| kerio | oh, apparently that cmdline is specified in rescueOS's documentation | 22:39 |
| Pali | (it only look for bootreason, bootmode and hwrevision) | 22:39 |
| kerio | flasher-3.5 -k 2.6.37 -n initrd.img -l -b"rootdelay root=/dev/ram0" | 22:39 |
| Pali | you can also use 0xFFFF :-) | 22:39 |
| * Sicelo makes a note to test 0xFFFF the next time he plays with kernels | 22:42 | |
| Sicelo | kerio: cmdline is not specified in that kernel's config, therefore needs to be specified | 22:42 |
| kerio | yeah, i was just wondering where that cmdline came from | 22:43 |
| Sicelo | the config is someone on the site | 22:43 |
| Sicelo | *somewhere | 22:43 |
| kerio | indeed, i've seen it now | 22:47 |
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| Sicelo | i'm now wondering what the difference between rootdleay & rootwait is, if any | 22:48 |
| Sicelo | *delay | 22:48 |
| kerio | rootdelay=<n> is a fixed wait | 22:48 |
| kerio | rootwait will wait (up until a timeout? idk) for the rootfs to come up and then it goes | 22:48 |
| Sicelo | ah. :) | 22:48 |
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| minde | hello! where I can find n900 linux kernel config? | 23:22 |
| minde | patches, source | 23:22 |
| kerio | minde: apt-src should work | 23:24 |
| kerio | ...if it was installed | 23:24 |
| kerio | i suppose it's installed in scratchbox | 23:24 |
| minde | Okay, thanks | 23:25 |
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| Estel_ | hello there | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | Lately, I managed to put my hand on expensivfe (whole 2 euro ;P) usb-ethernet adaptor. It seems, that modules for it are already present in kernel-power, as it lights up and is recognized properly: | 23:59 |
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