IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2012-10-27

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Hurrian	kerio, by "erased", do you mean zeroed, or simply marked as free?	00:06
kerio	Hurrian: by "erased" i mean erased	00:11
kerio	it has a precise meaning, when talking about MTDs	00:11
Hurrian	ah, right.	00:12
Hurrian	you may want to look up UBIFS erase behavior	00:13
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Hurrian	iirc jffs2 erases simply mark the volume as empty to save on writes	00:15
kerio	Hurrian: nah, i'm talking about a raw flash_eraseall	00:19
ShadowJK	You can't rewrite flash, it has to be erased first. Erasing is slow, so ubi and jffs2 would do it in advance if they get the chance.	00:20
ShadowJK	Also, zeroed is the exact opposite of erased :)	00:21
ShadowJK	When erased it'd be all ones, then when writing the 1s you dont want to stick are zeroed	00:21
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DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: SpeedEvil: or a good shot of X-rays	00:26
FIQ	?	00:26
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: depends - usually not	00:26
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: ((<FIQ> I wonder how they do that if they find the problem unfixable (in their eyes)))	00:27
FIQ	hmm ok	00:27
DocScrutinizer05	flash is basically glorified oldfashined EPROM	00:28
FIQ	eeprom*?	00:28
DocScrutinizer05	still info bits are some 1000 electrons sitting on an isolated pad of aluminium in SiO2	00:28
DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: I intentionally left out the E for "Electrically"	00:29
FIQ	oki	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	before EEPROM there been EPROM which had a glass window to erase with UV	00:29
DocScrutinizer05	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eprom.jpg	00:30
nox-	how is flash erased if not electrically?	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	obviously for erasure via xray you don't need a glass window	00:31
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DocScrutinizer05	nox-: via xray, as mentioned above	00:31
nox-	well i mean normally :)	00:31
DocScrutinizer05	normally you erase it electrically	00:32
nox-	ok	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	that "flash"	00:32
nox-	<DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I intentionally left out the E for "Electrically"	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	it's basically a high voltage that jumps over the isolating SiO2	00:32
nox-	i c	00:32
DocScrutinizer05	nox-: read context	00:33
nox-	i guess im too tired...	00:33
nox-	but its not important :)	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	<DocScrutinizer05> flash is basically glorified oldfashined EPROM <FIQ> eeprom*? <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I intentionally left out the E for "Electrically"	00:34
nox-	ok why did you leave out the first e?	00:34
FIQ	seems you like to hl me :D	00:34
DocScrutinizer05	since my suggestion been to erase it via xray	00:34
nox-	oh haha	00:34
ShadowJK	nox-, eprom had window, you shined strong Ultraviolet light at it. Then they invented way to erase it electrically, and it became known as eeprom.	00:35
nox-	yes i know...	00:35
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DocScrutinizer05	FIQ: btw this suggestion been not honest, since you'd for sure ruin the device with hard xray, since it erases all flash end other EPROM	00:37
DocScrutinizer05	there are several of those in N900, and some are not recoverable	00:37
nox-	:)	00:38
FIQ	er, it's not like i'll test anything of this :p	00:38
DocScrutinizer05	and then there's also elctret mic which also gets depolarized	00:38
SpeedEvil	that's in the headpiece	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	if you're really interested, I might look up max allowable keV and REM for the electret mic in FreeRunner ;-D	00:39
SpeedEvil	the one on board is a digital mems mic	00:39
SpeedEvil	IIRC	00:39
DocScrutinizer05	do you suggest that one has no dielectric polarized mambrane?	00:40
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: so... is it possible to recover an erased block in a NAND?	00:40
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: as already mentioned, usually not	00:40
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer05: IIRC not	00:40
SpeedEvil	but I haven't properly looked	00:40
SpeedEvil	I wish I could do failure analysis on the one on my nexus 7, but it makes more sense to return it	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	they might use active capaqcitor, they got some osc anyway	00:41
DocScrutinizer05	so no need for electret	00:42
DocScrutinizer05	but that's only speculation	00:42
SpeedEvil	(mic failed)	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	iirc at least SoC has mask PROM, so that one should be safe re X-ray	00:43
DocScrutinizer05	BT, WLAN, ALS... all that are an entirely different story	00:44
DocScrutinizer05	and probably you should do a CAL-dump prior to exposing your N900 to a good x-ray shot, anyway	00:45
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trumee	modest seems to have a bug using nokia messaging. Reply starts with wrong date "On Thu 1 Jan 1970 .....", instead of the email date.	01:33
trumee	This is on thumb btw. However on an 'imap', it is reported correctly.	01:34
trumee	merlin1991: ^^	01:35
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DocScrutinizer05	trumee: seems unrelated to thunb	01:41
* DocScrutinizer05 just notices that good docs about 3-wire coexistence of WLAN and BT is hard to find		01:42
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DocScrutinizer05	hmm, http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Documentation/Bluetooth-coexistence	01:48
trumee	DocScrutinizer05: yes maybe it is a cssu bug	01:49
DocScrutinizer05	more possible	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	or a nokia messaging bug ;-P	01:50
DocScrutinizer05	I thought nokia messaging was discontinued ages ago?	01:51
trumee	nope, working fine on my N900	01:51
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DocScrutinizer05	trumee: anyway, could you check against stock modest?	01:55
trumee	DocScrutinizer05: nope, need somebody else to check that	01:56
DocScrutinizer05	hmm	01:56
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DocScrutinizer05	I'm not even using any mail, not to think about noka messaging, on N900	01:57
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway, please check complete properties and raw source text of the message you replied, often the dates are inconsistent	01:58
DocScrutinizer05	there's date sender writes to mail header, then a date where mail server delivered mail also in header, and then there's the date on your local device that indicates when the mail got received	02:00
trumee	ah, nokia messaging doesnt display Received and Sent dates on clicking "Message details", which it does for imap client	02:00
DocScrutinizer05	the latter possibly found in file properties of that mail	02:01
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trumee	DocScrutinizer05: there is no way to raw header in modest	02:01
DocScrutinizer05	:-S	02:01
trumee	*way to see	02:01
DocScrutinizer05	could you forward full msg to a more versatile mailer?	02:02
DocScrutinizer05	obviously this will discard/miss the local properties like mdate of file	02:03
DocScrutinizer05	but header info should stay intact	02:03
trumee	hmm, seems it can only forward as 'inline' email, meaning header will be lost	02:03
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DocScrutinizer05	trumee: I can watch raw text on sth like ~/.modest/cache/mail/pop/<$account_name>_110/cache/3d/1299184634.10	02:09
DocScrutinizer05	maybe for nokia messaging there's something similar, though probably not under pop	02:10
DocScrutinizer05	btw nfc what's 1299184634, seems like a random ID string modest is using everywhere on my N900 mail	02:16
DocScrutinizer05	actually all files are named 1299184634.*	02:16
DocScrutinizer05	lol @ that	02:17
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SpeedEvil	seconds since 1970	02:20
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DocScrutinizer05	oooh	02:26
DocScrutinizer05	so WTF are all my mails same seconds-since then?	02:27
SpeedEvil	dunno	02:27
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DocScrutinizer05	smells like a fat bug in modest	02:28
DocScrutinizer05	my t900 looks quite different	02:29
DocScrutinizer05	then otoh I haven't used modest since it got "fixed" in cssu	02:29
DocScrutinizer05	on IroN900	02:29
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DocScrutinizer05	so it might well be a real bug that had been there but is fixed since long	02:30
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DocScrutinizer05	most recent files' timestamps are 2012-05-09 21:16, but most are from 2011	02:31
DocScrutinizer05	SpeedEvil: anyway goot spotting :-D	02:32
DocScrutinizer05	good	02:32
DocScrutinizer05	SpeedEvil: now just tell me how to use date(1) to print a human digestible format from 1299184634 ;-)	02:33
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DocScrutinizer05	SpeedEvil: nevermind, date --help provides a verbatim example for it	02:36
SpeedEvil	awk '{print(srtftime("%c",$0)}'	02:37
SpeedEvil	argh	02:37
SpeedEvil	typing on a virtual keyboard isn't fun	02:37
DocScrutinizer05	date -d '@1299184634'	02:37
DocScrutinizer05	Do 3. Mär 21:37:14 CET 2011	02:37
DocScrutinizer05	makes sense	02:37
SpeedEvil	I may have the arguments the wrong way round	02:37
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DocScrutinizer05	anyway, on t900 (stock fremantle) it looks like:	02:44
DocScrutinizer05	./cache/mail/pop/reisenx@gmx.net__pop.gmx.net_110/cache/02:	02:44
DocScrutinizer05	-rw------- 1 user users 20182 Mar 30 2012 01ZvxE-1Rkh2q2t6k-00ULFK	02:44
DocScrutinizer05	while on IroN900, it looks like:	02:45
DocScrutinizer05	.modest/cache/mail/pop/jr__lagrax.cloux.de_110/cache/02:	02:46
DocScrutinizer05	-rw------- 1 user users 1307 2011-12-01 23:30 1299184634.63	02:46
DocScrutinizer05	on t900 the string 01ZvxE-1Rkh2q2t6k-00ULFK is truely random and new for each file, while on IroN900 all files are named 1299184634.[0-9]{2}	02:47
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plourde	Hello, can someone please help me. I manually installed nitdroid with uboot and when i try to download apps apk files off the net it says no sd card. How do i mount the optfs folder in maemo permenently in nitdroid for applications?	03:04
plourde	Any help pls	03:07
DocScrutinizer05	/join #nitdroid	03:07
plourde	I did. No advice	03:11
plourde	Been trying and doing research and cant find anything	03:12
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gry	hello! how do i install maemo sql with qemu? i installed qemu and qemu-launcher and downloaded Maemo_Ubuntu_Lucid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image_Final.7z	03:52
gry	s/sql/sdk/	03:52
infobot	gry meant: hello! how do i install maemo sdk with qemu? i installed qemu and qemu-launcher and downloaded Maemo_Ubuntu_Lucid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image_Final.7z	03:52
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Hurrian	gry, that	04:40
Hurrian	*that's not the Maemo 5 QEMU rootfs	04:40
Hurrian	iirc it's for vmware or something	04:40
Hurrian	what exactly do you want to do? do you want to set up a N900 hardware emulation QEMU, or the Maemo 5 SDK for building apps?	04:41
Hurrian	for the latter all you need to do is run the python script	04:41
gry	Hurrian, thanks, I'm trying to run some sort of emulation platform, such as a virtual machines do.	04:42
gry	Hurrian, I had maemo SDK installed at a point, I don't remember how it worked but it had files in random places such as /scratchbox, and was not easy to delete; I'd prefer something that's easy to delete, like a virtual machine	04:44
Hurrian	unzip that file you just downloaded, and run it in vmware.	04:44
Hurrian	make a snapshot so you can clean up nice and easy.	04:45
gry	I'm afraid I don't have vmware installed, because it's proprietary, or somesuch	04:47
Hurrian	well, you can import the vmdk into virtualbox	04:47
Hurrian	and it'd boot	04:48
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FIQ	<DocScrutinizer05> btw nfc what's 1299184634, seems like a random ID string modest is using everywhere on my N900 mail	05:06
FIQ	looks like unix timestamp	05:06
FIQ	err nvm, speed said that	05:06
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FIQ	Thu, 03 Mar 2011 20:37:14 GMT apparently	05:07
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totalizator	Sign up for Steam's Linux beta now: http://t.co/1wrFORSO	05:35
wmarone	already did :)	05:36
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robbiethe1st	Already did as well	05:39
robbiethe1st	I answered honestly. Which probably means I'll get excluded, if they exclude anyone not putting ubuntu	05:40
robbiethe1st	One would hope they understand that linux users with experience can switch between distros, or figure things out with a lack of support.	05:40
wmarone	I'm pretty sure they are aware of it, and expect that a bunch of people answered with one of the options and will take it to fedora/arch right away	05:41
wmarone	but	05:41
wmarone	they aren't really looking for that at the moment	05:42
robbiethe1st	I'll be interested to see how it comes out. If I get included, I will sing valve's praise. If not, I will post angry messages on the forum and complain mightily!	05:43
robbiethe1st	I'm hoping they also look at wine usage, and corrilate it to actual wine data from Steam.	05:44
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robbiethe1st	Because, well, if I can run Steam for Windows on Debian with Wine, and use Pulseaudio while doing so... I can make /anything/ work	05:45
wmarone	heheh	05:45
robbiethe1st	Meh. If steam would ever /update/ or stop sending such large TF2 patches... I'd really like to shoot some people, darnit!	05:46
totalizator	hah, me too - ticked Other	05:46
robbiethe1st	Other on...?	05:46
robbiethe1st	OS?	05:46
totalizator	yes, OS	05:46
robbiethe1st	Gentoo user?	05:47
robbiethe1st	Or arch?	05:47
totalizator	Arch :D it's obvious that when you claim to be a Linux user for more than 5 years, willing to fill survey, you can switch a distro as the worst case scenario	05:49
robbiethe1st	I'd think so	05:49
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robbiethe1st	But then again, any company who'd roll out a Linux release like a Windows or Mac one...	05:50
robbiethe1st	Instead of just saying "Here, here's our unfinished dev version. Give us a list of bugs here at this bugzilla.	05:51
totalizator	it's more like a clever marketing for me, to engage all those geeks and make the Linux titles sell well when out of beta	05:54
totalizator	ok, time to get some sleep, o&o.	05:55
Skry	me too. the sleep and the Arch bits.	05:56
Skry	I dont even game that much but just had to sign	05:56
FIQ	robbiethe1st:	06:00
robbiethe1st	?	06:01
FIQ	next time you update backupmenu	06:01
robbiethe1st	Yes?	06:01
FIQ	please make untar ignore timestamp issues	06:01
robbiethe1st	It does.	06:01
robbiethe1st	But it shows up as errors anyway, doesn't do any harm.	06:01
FIQ	then why did it spew out thousends of errors on me and break my rootfs?	06:01
FIQ	*broke	06:01
robbiethe1st	It will spew out errors - that's just a listing of stderr. But it's set to ignore most all errors - go check the source for the exact tar options used	06:02
robbiethe1st	Why do you think it broke your rootfs?	06:02
robbiethe1st	Did you stop it before it was complete?	06:02
FIQ	because it made a fine bootable device unbootable	06:03
FIQ	not at all	06:03
robbiethe1st	OK, and what kernel were you using?	06:03
FIQ	it said that it was complete in big nice green text	06:03
FIQ	powerkernel	06:03
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robbiethe1st	Did the backup you were restoring have the same kernel as currently flashed to the device?	06:04
FIQ	hmmmmmm	06:04
FIQ	let me think	06:04
robbiethe1st	If you've got a different kernel running - flashed to the kernel partition - the backup won't have kernel modules for it	06:04
FIQ	no	06:04
robbiethe1st	therefor, no booting	06:04
robbiethe1st	One way to check, use flasher to flash /only the stock kernel/	06:04
FIQ	ok that's understandable	06:04
robbiethe1st	If it boots, great.	06:05
FIQ	i can't flash, (barely) broken microUSB	06:05
FIQ	i'll go to a repair shop and solve that problem	06:05
FIQ	then I'll be able to do stuff with it	06:05
robbiethe1st	Yeah.	06:05
robbiethe1st	But if it's not the kernel, that's weird - I /generally/ have no issues, and rarely see complaints	06:05
FIQ	however the problem came up as very erratic	06:06
FIQ	like half of the things still work, most doesn't	06:06
robbiethe1st	Did you flash the optfs as well?	06:06
FIQ	hm	06:06
robbiethe1st	Because all of your app's files are stored on there	06:06
FIQ	I don't think so, but I'm not sure	06:06
robbiethe1st	rootfs has main OS, and some binaries, plus symlinks to most apps	06:07
robbiethe1st	which are on the opt/home fs	06:07
FIQ	yeah I know what they're used for pretty much	06:07
FIQ	but I can't see what difference flashing optfs would make in my case	06:07
FIQ	bootmenu crashes after 5s of idle (probably watchdog issue), maemo doesn't boot at all, backupmenu crashes unless I press keys during startup (then it gives a "watchdog not found" error), and menu options mostly doesn't work (though they respond fine)	06:08
robbiethe1st	It'd only be a real issue if your current apps are different from the old apps	06:08
robbiethe1st	Well, that's interesting	06:08
robbiethe1st	I wonder if that's a kernel issue...	06:08
FIQ	I tried to re-restore the thing, but I cannot mount eMMC properly now	06:08
FIQ	it told me to run fsck (pretty sure it wouldn't change things, but it didn't work anyway - "fsck.ext2: No such file or directory")	06:09
robbiethe1st	So you've got no fsck on the rootfs	06:09
robbiethe1st	wow, could the backup have gotten corrupted/been incomplete?	06:09
FIQ	root shell just gave me a black screen, though it always did (even when things were working fine)	06:09
FIQ	i'm pretty sure that's not the case, unless "Completed successfully!" (or whatever the text is) isn't certain	06:10
FIQ	also wouldn't that also make restore impossible?	06:10
robbiethe1st	Well, what that knows is that tar completed successfully	06:10
robbiethe1st	whether the backup is complete or is what you actually want... no real way to tell	06:11
FIQ	DocScrutinizer05 thought it was because of a bug in which backupmenu didn't tar without ignoring timestamp, which means that everything that didn't have a time of 0 failed	06:11
robbiethe1st	all it's doing is running simple shell commands, basically	06:11
FIQ	s/time/last changed time/	06:11
infobot	FIQ meant: DocScrutinizer05 thought it was because of a bug in which backupmenu didn't tar without ignoring last changed timestamp, which means that everything that didn't have a time of 0 failed	06:11
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robbiethe1st	It shouldn't.	06:11
robbiethe1st	Check the source actually	06:11
robbiethe1st	the file you're looking for is /usr/share/BackupMenu/BackupMenu.item - shell script	06:12
robbiethe1st	look for 'gtar' lines.	06:12
robbiethe1st	Hm, can you mount anything via USB?	06:12
robbiethe1st	Dinnertime. Be back soon.	06:13
FIQ	sorry, but when I check the source, I see no trace of a "ignore timestamp", though my knowledge of gtar might just be limited	06:14
FIQ	gtar p"$backupRootCompress"cf $backupRootLocation ./ --ignore-failed-read --numeric-owner --exclude=./tmp/* 2> /tmp/tarstatus & pid=$! <-- is the line	06:14
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FIQ	no...	06:16
FIQ	I checked manpage quickly, the options given seems to be unrelated to that	06:16
FIQ	possible that --ignore-failed-read ignores mtime though, so you might be correct	06:18
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FIQ	oh well, I can't really diagnose anything at the moment due to microUSB problems, as said	06:19
FIQ	Ok, I can see that a modified kernel would make Maemo unbootable.	06:20
FIQ	er, different kernel between restore and pre-restore	06:20
FIQ	I can not however see why that would broke backupmenu as horrible as it did (or bootmenu for that matter, which doesn't even use the kernel pre-boot)	06:21
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FIQ	Also, I though that the kernel were in the rootfs, i.e. didn't think about it much when I flashed a new kernel in first place	06:25
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robbiethe1st	FIQ, I can't give you too much help with regards to the screwed-up restore; only thing I can suggest is doing a diff of your backup image(if you have a copy elsewhere) against a previous backup or another person's.	07:04
FIQ	i'll see what I can do once i can reflash and boot the device (as it's all on eMMC etc)	07:04
robbiethe1st	Yeah	07:06
robbiethe1st	Um, check the thread. There's an old 'bootstrap' rootfs image you can try	07:06
robbiethe1st	flashable	07:06
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kerio	While this was running, /sys/class/power_supply/bq24150-0/status said "Charging". I'd guess that this is not quite true. The N900 was receiving power but not enough to run the N900 and the battery was emptying. /sys/class/power_supply/bq24150-0/charge_current says "1750". What does that mean? I doubt that it means that the N900 is receiving 1750 mA.	14:31
kerio	haha wat	14:31
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1286272&postcount=115 - explain	14:31
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SpeedEvil	from memory, there is no way to measure charging current	14:40
SpeedEvil	only battery current	14:41
SpeedEvil	'charging' means have vbus, from the charger perspective	14:41
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kerio	wtf, where's the download link for apkenv? :s	14:53
GeneralAntilles	thp must've taken it down.	14:56
GeneralAntilles	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1284909&postcount=326	14:56
GeneralAntilles	Found here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Apkenv	14:56
kerio	meh	14:56
GeneralAntilles	(.zip containing a .deb)	14:56
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kerio	thankfully the wayback machine exists	14:58
kerio	aww, it's not archived :(	14:59
GeneralAntilles	Uh	15:00
GeneralAntilles	I just linked it.	15:00
GeneralAntilles	I'll try again.	15:00
GeneralAntilles	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1284909&postcount=326	15:00
kerio	>harmattan	15:01
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GeneralAntilles	Ah	15:02
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: no /sys/class/power_supply/bq24150-0/status without pali's bq24150.ko, so I have NFC what does "charging" mean	15:07
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1241530&postcount=1 so please ask the OP of thread, not me	15:10
qwazix	who's got a Nexus 7? Native ubuntu on it since yesterday, with hildon on it could be almost maemo.	15:11
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LaoLang_cool	How to set maemo's clock from cli?	15:29
LaoLang_cool	gui is so slow	15:30
LaoLang_cool	I want to set time format and time zone from cli	15:30
DocScrutinizer05	date & hwclock?	15:30
DocScrutinizer05	ooh	15:30
LaoLang_cool	DocScrutinizer05, hwclock?	15:30
jon_y	silly UI wants you to swipe/scroll all the way	15:31
DocScrutinizer05	LaoLang_cool: nevermind, for setting TZ and format you need other tools, no idea what's the maemo way to edit them	15:33
jon_y	tzset?	15:34
DocScrutinizer05	LaoLang_cool: setting clock is date(1) and hwclock(8)	15:34
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xray7224	hello	15:34
DocScrutinizer05	hello	15:35
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LaoLang_cool	I tried to use gconftool-2 -s /apps/clock/time-format --type=boolean ture, but it doesn't work, after I launch clock, the time format will be changed to default 12hr again	15:39
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LaoLang_cool	I got confused	15:39
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xray7225	* pressed	15:42
DocScrutinizer05	xray7225: eh?	15:43
DocScrutinizer05	LaoLang_cool: I assume the 'ture' is a typo you introduced here?	15:44
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DocScrutinizer05	LaoLang_cool: check by >> gconftool-2 -g /apps/clock/time-format<<	15:45
LaoLang_cool	DocScrutinizer05, it's typo ;p	15:46
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DocScrutinizer05	sure, but where?	15:46
DocScrutinizer05	as long as it's a typo here, it doesn't affect cli	15:46
LaoLang_cool	I have set it to true, but after launch clock, the value will be restored to 'false'	15:47
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LaoLang_cool	I don't know why	15:47
DocScrutinizer05	in cli however it won't throw an error (I just checked) but I doubt it will result in what you intended	15:47
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DocScrutinizer05	LaoLang_cool: check out tzconfig, tzset, and locale	15:49
DocScrutinizer05	s/set/select/	15:50
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: LaoLang_cool: check out tzconfig, tzselect, and locale	15:50
LaoLang_cool	After running gconftool-2, time showing on status bar will be changed to 24hr format, but after running clock, it will be restored back to 12hr	15:50
LaoLang_cool	H iave no tzset cmd here in maemo ...	15:50
DocScrutinizer05	tzseelct	15:51
DocScrutinizer05	tzselect grrrr	15:51
LaoLang_cool	-sh: tzselect: not found	15:52
DocScrutinizer05	IroN900:/home/user# ll /usr/bin/tzselect	15:52
DocScrutinizer05	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 6894 2010-06-08 14:19 /usr/bin/tzselect	15:52
LaoLang_cool	but tz<tab> can give tzselect as a completion candidate, weired...	15:52
DocScrutinizer05	nfc which pkg brought it	15:52
LaoLang_cool	I'm running as root now	15:52
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LaoLang_cool	oh, tzselect use /bin/bash as shell, I haven't it, so it says not found	16:08
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: libc6, apparently	16:09
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: ?? tzselect?	16:10
kerio	yep	16:11
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: dafq a lib comes with cmdline binaries?	16:11
kerio	dpkg -S `which tzselect`	16:11
DocScrutinizer05	wow	16:11
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: thanks	16:12
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: you think you can stop trolling now that your stand-in is here again? :-D	16:12
kerio	nope	16:12
DocScrutinizer05	way too useful... ;-P	16:12
kerio	i feel that the mixture of trolling and helping is what really upsets people	16:13
DocScrutinizer05	hehehehe	16:13
DocScrutinizer05	might be about right	16:13
kerio	and in the meantime, i help people :D	16:14
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DocScrutinizer05	I'm however afraid that - if this tz* stuff comes with libc6 - it might be of no effect on maemo	16:15
DocScrutinizer05	prolly a strace of the time&language picker in maemo settings might reveal what's primary location to tweak for such TZ and format stuff	16:16
DocScrutinizer05	in maemo	16:16
kerio	or just dbus-monitor	16:17
DocScrutinizer05	alternatively do a ls -lR / >before-ls; gconftool -R / >before-gc	16:17
DocScrutinizer05	the change settings-tz, then compare before* to after*	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	then* change...	16:18
DocScrutinizer05	(dbus) I'm not sure this class of settings is done via dbus	16:20
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ccssnet	trolling? you dont say...	16:38
kerio	i do say	16:39
ccssnet	precisely	16:43
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kerio	Pali: what's the state of uboot as a full NOLO replacement?	19:38
Pali	uboot has no support for n900 onenand	19:39
kerio	Pali: ROMBL tries to read xloader from the uSD apparently, so it would be neat if we had a way to run an emergency emergency system from there	19:39
Pali	kerio, but in qemu it show me hello world to serial console :-)	19:39
Pali	so I think uboot spl is working for n900	19:39
kerio	Pali: what about the hw initialization?	19:40
Pali	kerio, I do not know if omap n900 can boot xloader from sd card...	19:40
freemangordon	Pali: it can	19:40
Pali	kerio, at least xloader+uboot spl doing all what is needed for qemu	19:40
freemangordon	look at the end of the TRM for details	19:40
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Pali	freemangordon, it needs to configure to change boot sequence	19:41
Pali	and I do not know if it is possible on n900 without serial console...	19:41
Pali	at least there is command for "cold-flashing" for it	19:42
Pali	to boot from mmc	19:42
freemangordon	Pali: the boot order depends on some DWORD in RAM iirc	19:42
Pali	but I do not know exact format of xloader on non gp devices	19:42
Pali	in trm is only MLO file for gp device	19:43
freemangordon	I see	19:43
Pali	I already looked at it when I implemented cold flashing...	19:43
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DocScrutinizer05	i'm eager to test MLO on uSD, what's been the exact requirements? VFAT partition, MLO.*? on \ ?	20:20
DocScrutinizer05	I mean, dd if=dev/NOLO of=MyDocs/MLO.bin would be a start	20:20
DocScrutinizer05	I'd expect boot to fail and freeze on that	20:21
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: freemangordon: ^^^	20:21
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, see http://omappedia.org/wiki/Bootloader_Project	20:24
Pali	see also: http://linux.fjfi.cvut.cz/~zub/omap34xx-boot-order/	20:25
Pali	but I have no idea if this working on HS devices	20:25
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: i'd guess MBR and the first partition formatted as vfat	20:29
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: nope, a file called MLO	20:29
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: no, i mean	20:29
kerio	MLO.bin in the first vfat partition of the MBR	20:29
DocScrutinizer05	sure I guess it will look for MBR to get partiton table to learn what's first partition	20:30
DocScrutinizer05	and the file is "MLO" in root, not "MLO.bin"	20:30
kerio	i see	20:31
DocScrutinizer05	Oh LOL	20:34
DocScrutinizer05	IroN900:~# ./omap34xx-boot-order	20:35
DocScrutinizer05	sys_boot[5:0]: 0x10	20:35
DocScrutinizer05	Boot order: OneNAND USB UART3 MMC1 --	20:35
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: mio. thanks	20:35
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DocScrutinizer05	so if that's true and I'm not mistaken, you can't coldflash a working xloader+NOLO - or could you?	20:39
kerio	USB is coldflash?	20:39
DocScrutinizer05	well, xloader still might check USB before chainloading existing NOLO	20:39
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: remember the nandtester	20:40
kerio	he had no xloader	20:40
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DocScrutinizer05	kerio: yep, that's pretty easily the reason why he could coldflash	20:40
DocScrutinizer05	ROMBL didn't find a valid xloader in NAND, so listened to ZSB for coldflashing	20:41
DocScrutinizer05	USB*	20:41
kerio	hm	20:41
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: so we are set, if we find a way to boot from uSD	20:42
DocScrutinizer05	hmm?	20:42
kerio	oh no wait, there's still a problem	20:42
DocScrutinizer05	Boot order: OneNAND USB UART3 MMC1 --	20:42
kerio	it only goes to mmc1 if it can't load the nand xloader	20:42
DocScrutinizer05	yep, exactly	20:43
DocScrutinizer05	and what xloader does, this is a completely different story then	20:43
DocScrutinizer05	http://omappedia.org/wiki/Bootloader_Project#Second_Stage_Boot	20:44
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DocScrutinizer05	cp $whatever /media/mmc1/u-boot.bin	20:48
DocScrutinizer05	might be worth a try	20:48
DocScrutinizer05	>>In the case of loading the u-boot via the SD card, the SD card x-loader looks for a FAT32 partition on the first MMC controller and scans the top level directory for a file named "u-boot.bin". It then transfers the file into main memory and transfers control to it.<<	20:48
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kerio	...huh, i have an u-boot.bin on my MyDocs	20:49
DocScrutinizer05	so I guess 'our' xloader doesn't do that	20:49
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DocScrutinizer05	it might look at USB for somebody trying to coldflash NOLO, and load 2nd NOLO from there into RAM, but it probably won't look at MMC1 for u-boot.bin	20:50
kerio	:(	20:51
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, colflashing is done via USB peripherla booting	20:51
Pali	and usb peripheral booting is done before omap booting	20:51
DocScrutinizer05	sorry?	20:52
Pali	so you can cold flash	20:52
DocScrutinizer05	what's omap booting?	20:52
Pali	I mean booting from above your list	20:52
DocScrutinizer05	what's usb peripheral booting	20:52
DocScrutinizer05	the above list tells where ROMBL looks for xloader/MLO	20:53
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kerio	what's MLO?	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	once xloader got loaded, it again has some list (of possibly only one source) where to look for NOLO	20:53
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: another name for xloader	20:54
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, bootrom first check if there is omap asic message sent from usb	20:54
Pali	if yes then it wait for another message via usb	20:54
Pali	if no then bootrom booting from list	20:54
DocScrutinizer05	oooh	20:54
Pali	and one message is "wait for boot image via usb" and boot it	20:55
DocScrutinizer05	wtf is this specified now?	20:55
Pali	USB in that boot order is booting from usb device	20:55
Pali	via host mode	20:55
DocScrutinizer05	WUT?	20:55
Pali	(but this is not working on n900)	20:55
DocScrutinizer05	that's not what I think ROMBL can do	20:56
Pali	yes, omap boot rom can do it	20:56
DocScrutinizer05	boot xloader from assrage device???	20:56
Pali	omap bootrom can boot xloader from nand, onenand, mmc, usb flash, ...	20:56
Pali	look into trm	20:57
DocScrutinizer05	usb FLASH?	20:57
DocScrutinizer05	duh	20:57
Pali	usb flash disk	20:57
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, see: https://github.com/radare/0xFFFF/blob/master/src/cold-flash.c#L82	20:58
Pali	all possible boot messages	20:58
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kerio	Pali: does ROMBL try multiple times to load the xloader?	21:04
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Pali	kerio, I do not know what omap rom doing	21:05
Pali	try look at trm	21:05
DocScrutinizer05	TRM "26.4 Device Initialization by ROM Code" doesn't mention mass storage mode for USB, only "download" from host	21:05
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Pali	hm, there was booting file from FAT partition on usb device (via usb host mode)	21:07
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DocScrutinizer05	don't see it anywhere in this region of TRM	21:09
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DocScrutinizer05	have to check "Figure 26-8. Overall Booting Sequence" for a while	21:10
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DocScrutinizer05	(p.3455 of my TRM)	21:10
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DocScrutinizer05	Pali: I only see "/* Omap HS USB boot message */" in this 0xffff source you linked me to, and that's what I see as well in e.g. "26.4.5 Peripheral Booting" in TRM. AIUI it's waiting for image to get sent via USB "plaintext", not mounting a USB mass storage device and load some file from there	21:22
DocScrutinizer05	that's pretty much what we expect to see for coldflashing	21:23
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DocScrutinizer05	Pali: "Figure 26-9. Device List Setup" says "power-on reset? YES: take all devices from sys_boot [pins]"	21:26
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DocScrutinizer05	Pali: so in the end I don't see why we could make ROMBL load xloader from USB - with "Boot order: OneNAND USB UART3 MMC1 -- " - when xloader in NAND is succeeding for "try to load"	21:28
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, ok	21:30
DocScrutinizer05	I'd be happy to learn I missed something, or that maybe output of ./omap34xx-boot-order was incorrect	21:31
DocScrutinizer05	for now it seems to me there's no way to override a working xloader in OneNAND - which otoh makes quite some sense	21:32
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DocScrutinizer05	you can't nuke xloader without booting device, and you can't boot device in a way not meant to be valid by xloader	21:33
DocScrutinizer05	so in that regard the device is tamper-proof	21:34
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kerio	DocScrutinizer05: tamper-proof as long as you don't have a computer and a usb cable handy	21:47
DocScrutinizer05	kerio: exactly NOT	21:47
DocScrutinizer05	since you can't stop ROMBL from loading and executing OneNAND xloader by any means, other than destructing the OneNAND based xloader, on a power-on-reset boot	21:48
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kerio	i thought coldflashing happened before the onenand xloader was loaded	21:49
DocScrutinizer05	only if xloader fails	21:49
kerio	oic	21:49
DocScrutinizer05	see: "Boot order: OneNAND USB UART3 MMC1 -- "	21:50
vi__	~nexus6	21:51
vi__	~nexus	21:51
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DocScrutinizer05	btw time window for polling USB is 300ms, if anybody is interested	21:51
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: so what happens if xloader is fine but NOLO is borked?	21:51
DocScrutinizer05	that depends on xloader	21:51
kerio	the current xloader	21:52
kerio	the one signed by nokia	21:52
DocScrutinizer05	yep	21:52
kerio	no, i mean, what does it do if NOLO is borked?	21:52
DocScrutinizer05	that depends on xloader	21:52
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: so you don't know?	21:53
DocScrutinizer05	since "it" == xloader in your question	21:53
DocScrutinizer05	no, I don't know since I haven't disassembled xloader yet	21:54
kerio	i thought somebody had tried it by now	21:54
kerio	...but ofc if there's no way to recover...	21:54
DocScrutinizer05	you probably could tell from your PCs syslog, watching for xloader ENUM after ROMBL ENUM	21:55
DocScrutinizer05	I still have to investigate and sync the data from syslog with my above reasoning	21:56
DocScrutinizer05	actually for poor _lena this aren't exactly good news	21:57
kerio	who was that again?	21:58
DocScrutinizer05	the girl which had a failing flashing-procedure	21:58
kerio	oh right	21:58
DocScrutinizer05	and even failing NOLO bat test	21:58
kerio	i thought it was just a low battery	21:58
DocScrutinizer05	unlikely on Vbat=4066mV or sth	21:59
DocScrutinizer05	I'm just flabbergasted she said she swapped bupbat	22:00
Skry	I think he actually did mean something else	22:01
Skry	she	22:01
Skry	not used to she @ irc :D	22:02
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, do you know AT commands? or do you have some doc for it?	22:04
Pali	I need to know what should "AT+CSRSF=0,0,0,0,0,7" do	22:05
DocScrutinizer05	I know a few, but my good times are long gone ;-D	22:05
Pali	when I connet my bluetooth headset into hfs mode, then blutooth daemon show this into syslog	22:05
Pali	bluetoothd[1425]: Badly formated or unrecognized command: AT+CSRSF=0,0,0,0,0,7	22:06
Pali	also on desktop and on n900	22:06
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, so I think bluetooth daemon does not have implemented that code	22:06
Pali	and I'd like to know what my bluetooth headset sending	22:06
Pali	but I was not able to find anything about that AT command	22:06
DocScrutinizer05	nfc	22:06
DocScrutinizer05	never heard of it	22:07
Pali	is there any documentation for AT?	22:08
vi__	Pali: it is a CIA backdoor.	22:08
DocScrutinizer05	and obviously pnatd doesn't know it either	22:08
Pali	vi__, what?	22:08
Pali	how? :D	22:08
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: there's a lot of AT docs, but obviously nothing mentioning AT+CSRSF	22:08
DocScrutinizer05	at least according to aunt google	22:09
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: http://thebirdfree-personal.googlecode.com/svn-history/r13/trunk/Ontech/twitter/lib/aghfp/aghfp_parse.parse	22:10
DocScrutinizer05	# CSR Extended Features	22:11
DocScrutinizer05	# a CSR Supported Features Request	22:11
DocScrutinizer05	{ AT + CSRSF = %d:callerName , %d:rawText , %d:smsInd , %d:battLevel , %d:pwrSource , %d:codecs , %*:ignore \r } : aghfpHandleReponseCSRSupportedFeatures	22:11
Pali	hm...	22:11
Pali	codecs=7	22:12
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-910204-start-0.html	22:20
Pali	there is no info about CSR...	22:21
DocScrutinizer05	>>Feb 1 23:12:31 localhost bluetoothd[3065]: Badly formated or unrecognized command: AT+CSRSF=1,1,1,1,1,7 <<	22:21
vi__	what about CCR?	22:21
Pali	but nobody explained what it is	22:21
DocScrutinizer05	sure	22:22
Pali	I found many logs on google with that AT	22:22
DocScrutinizer05	there's really few in aunt google about it	22:22
Pali	now I'm trying to understand that aghfp code from googlecode	22:22
kerio	Pali: headset asking for codec support for a2dp?	22:22
Pali	kerio, that AT command is for hfp	22:23
kerio	oh	22:23
kerio	Pali: headset asking for codec support for hfp?	22:23
kerio	>:D	22:23
Pali	but my headset has support for apt-x	22:23
kerio	i thought apt-x was strictly for a2dp	22:23
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Pali	I thought too	22:24
Pali	I need to know more about it	22:24
DocScrutinizer05	for some very strange reason google doesn't yield any hits for "AT+CSRSF"	22:24
DocScrutinizer05	If I had to guess, I'd suspect something along extended functions on headset, like number display, voice-dialing, whatnot	22:25
DocScrutinizer05	well, probably that's what HFP means ;-P	22:26
Pali	DocScrutinizer05, I have 4 buttons on headset and they working without problem (both n900 and notebook)	22:27
DocScrutinizer05	Pali: so what did you say, who is spamming that AT+CSRSF string ?	22:28
Pali	my bluetooth headset	22:29
DocScrutinizer05	o.O	22:29
DocScrutinizer05	I'd ignore that then	22:29
Pali	everytime when I connect it	22:29
Pali	yes I'm ignoring it, but I'd like to know what is my bluetootj headset trying to tell me...	22:29
DocScrutinizer05	probably it's just checking some special function of e.g. cryPhone or whatever	22:29
DocScrutinizer05	since the command returns error on PNATD it will fall back to more generic methods to achieve wahtever it needs to do	22:30
DocScrutinizer05	maybe the headset would offer several codecs that the modem can digest natively, and thus avoid transcoding from e.g mp3 to pcm in SoC/APE	22:32
DocScrutinizer05	Apple/whoever might have implemented such function to save some energy	22:33
Pali	from "AT + CSRSF = %d:callerName , %d:rawText , %d:smsInd , %d:battLevel , %d:pwrSource , %d:codecs" I understand that my "AT+CSRSF=0,0,0,0,0,7" is name, text, sms, batt, pwr are unsupported (0) and codecs=7	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	:nod:	22:34
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Pali	so 7 supported codecs?	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	22:34
DocScrutinizer05	codec #7 ?	22:35
DocScrutinizer05	nah, actually number of codecs	22:35
DocScrutinizer05	or class of codecs, or whatever	22:35
Pali	see header of that file: This file contains all AT commands as specified in the Headset and Hands Free specs.	22:35
Pali	Copyright (C) Cambridge Silicon Radio Ltd. 2005-2009 Part of Audio-Adaptor-SDK 2009.R1	22:36
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DocScrutinizer05	I noticed that, yeah	22:36
DocScrutinizer05	whoever that might be	22:36
DocScrutinizer05	Cambridge Silicon Radio Ltd	22:37
Pali	CSR?	22:37
DocScrutinizer05	seems it's rather a specific or proprietary cmd of them	22:37
DocScrutinizer05	sure, CSR = Cambridge Silicon Radio Ltd	22:38
DocScrutinizer05	other silicon bakers might have adopted the syntax	22:38
DocScrutinizer05	like AT at large once been Hayes	22:39
DocScrutinizer05	bottom line: a highly intriguing though negligible problem	22:39
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DocScrutinizer05	ergo exactly the stuff hackers spend 95% of their time when implementing a project, while the main heavy lifting is done in the remaining 5% of time, during several nightshifts	22:40
DocScrutinizer05	;-)	22:41
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DocScrutinizer05	http://www-personal.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/Humour/Real.Programmer.Stories.html	22:44
DocScrutinizer05	>> If there is not enough schedule pressure on the Real Programmer, he tends to make things more challenging by working on some small but interesting part of the problem for the first nine weeks, then finishing the rest in the last week, in two or three 50-hour marathons. <<	22:46
DocScrutinizer05	>>This not only inpresses the hell out of his manager, who was despairing of ever getting the project done on time, but creates a convenient excuse for not doing the documentation.<<	22:47
Lava_Croft	Im sure that will result in good code!	22:49
DocScrutinizer05	indeed, real code that nobody ever will be able to understand. that's how the "real programmer" likes his code	22:53
ccssnet	50 hour marathons. ive been there...	22:53
* DocScrutinizer05 too		22:54
DocScrutinizer05	when I was younf and beautiful	22:54
DocScrutinizer05	and I needed the money ;-P	22:54
kerio	you're still beautiful docky!	22:55
DocScrutinizer05	;-P	22:55
DocScrutinizer05	my sunglasses are, not me	22:55
DocScrutinizer05	actually the only comment regarding my avatar so far been: "NOO!? For real???? I thought 'what a badass'!"	22:56
Lava_Croft	DocScrutinizer05: thankgod the days where "real" programmers ruled the world are over	22:58
DocScrutinizer05	Lava_Croft: yeah	22:58
DocScrutinizer05	alas nowadays web programmers took over	22:58
Lava_Croft	is that even programming	22:58
Lava_Croft	i wonder	22:58
DocScrutinizer05	no	22:58
DocScrutinizer05	though, depends whom you ask	22:59
DocScrutinizer05	;-D	22:59
Lava_Croft	;)	22:59
Lava_Croft	ok, i have to get this off my chest	23:00
DocScrutinizer05	the Qml zealots for sure will claim that's the best programming the world ever seen	23:00
Lava_Croft	there's too many websites sporting articles that are roughly titled "Installing Windows 8 in 7 steps"	23:00
Lava_Croft	Thats just a brainfuck	23:00
Lava_Croft	im not programmer orso, but qml is scripting to me	23:01
kerio	i installed linux mint on a laptop i've never seen before, yesterday	23:01
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kerio	i still don't know its specs, i just followed the installer	23:01
kerio	everything worked perfectly :s	23:01
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	23:02
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DocScrutinizer05	I think I never done anything different	23:03
ShadowJK	"customers who had visited the store so far didn't seem that interested in Microsoft's new OS and were unable to upgrade to it from Windows 7 because many of them were still running XP."	23:03
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: yeah but there's usually something that goes wrong	23:03
DocScrutinizer05	not here	23:03
kerio	which makes things fun	23:03
DocScrutinizer05	maybe with mint	23:03
kerio	nah, it was the first time i ever used it	23:04
kerio	but it's basically ubuntu anyway	23:04
DocScrutinizer05	I'm using a commercial grade quality distro ;-D	23:04
kerio	DocScrutinizer05: and you should feel ashamed of it!	23:04
DocScrutinizer05	PFFF	23:04
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Lava_Croft	kerio: why not use Mint Debian?	23:04
kerio	Lava_Croft: not my laptop	23:04
Lava_Croft	And?	23:05
DocScrutinizer05	you could state I should be ashamed for not using win3.1 and enjoying the pleasures of tweaking it to some usefulness	23:05
Lava_Croft	As if installing ubuntu on someone's computer is an act of friendliness	23:05
ccssnet	mint is a good suggestion, i install linux mint lxde flavor for other peoples pc's	23:05
kerio	ccssnet: MATE is a surprisingly competent "traditional" desktop	23:05
ccssnet	eh	23:06
ccssnet	i prefer to test stuff more before i just give it to people	23:06
ccssnet	lol	23:06
kerio	it's gnome 2, pretty much :3	23:06
DocScrutinizer05	eeeeeeek! some work sztarting with 2g"	23:07
DocScrutinizer05	dang	23:07
DocScrutinizer05	eeeeeeek! some word starting with "g"	23:07
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ccssnet	kerio: i still havent used it so ill get around to it	23:07
DocScrutinizer05	~buntkuh	23:08
infobot	methinks buntkuh is http://xkcd.com/424/ ... Redmond, or http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein-Rind	23:08
DocScrutinizer05	and gnome being the perfect match for that	23:09
DocScrutinizer05	>>ubuntu: it turns out the distro is just a win-xp with some custom themes"	23:09
DocScrutinizer05	<<	23:10
Lava_Croft	it says Vista specifically	23:10
DocScrutinizer05	ooh vista	23:10
Lava_Croft	xp is too lightweight to be ubuntu	23:10
DocScrutinizer05	indeed	23:10
DocScrutinizer05	my bad	23:11
DocScrutinizer05	probably related to the fact that my experience with vista is ~40min so far	23:11
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DocScrutinizer05	and those 40min been helping neighbour to install that crap	23:12
ShadowJK	it's funny, vista still doesn't run ok with today's hw.	23:12
Lava_Croft	my experience is wondering why 32bit vista was installed on my wife's 64bit laptop	23:12
Lava_Croft	which flowed into the experience which is kind of like "Why is this computer moving like as if stuck in a mixture of hubba bubba and marmite"	23:13
Lava_Croft	then i installed win7 64bit and all was solved	23:13
DocScrutinizer05	never touched win7	23:13
DocScrutinizer05	literally	23:13
Lava_Croft	win7 is easily, hand down, the best windows version ever made	23:14
ShadowJK	they usually didnt install 64 bit on machines with less ram, and also it was unclear whether adobe flash would work on 64bit.	23:14
DocScrutinizer05	doesn't mean much to me	23:14
ShadowJK	Nah I like XP, not as heavy :-)	23:14
Lava_Croft	but XP is very insecure	23:14
Lava_Croft	and old	23:14
DocScrutinizer05	I hate all redmond crap, no matter which version or name	23:14
Lava_Croft	i dont hate software, thats silly to me	23:14
Lava_Croft	i use windows because i like games and games like windows	23:15
DocScrutinizer05	ooh, then you've never been forced to use crappy software	23:15
DocScrutinizer05	otherwise you'd have learnt to hate it	23:15
ShadowJK	Well it's not like I'd browse the interwebs with xp	23:15
Lava_Croft	crappy software in general is not MS's fault	23:15
DocScrutinizer05	I mean MS's software, actually	23:16
Lava_Croft	and i've been using windows since 5.25inch 2.0 floppies :<	23:16
Lava_Croft	win7 is a dream compared to the days of 95/98	23:16
Lava_Croft	the problem with most linux folks and windows is that most linux folks go around windows, looking for linux stuff they can relate to	23:16
DocScrutinizer05	linux is a dream _since_ the days I abandoned win95	23:16
Lava_Croft	once they find out its mostly not there, they conclude it must suck	23:16
DocScrutinizer05	prior to that time it been too heavy for my machines	23:17
Lava_Croft	since it lacks linux feature X or Y, or whatever program they always use	23:17
Lava_Croft	i use whats best for the job, and for games thats windows	23:17
Lava_Croft	for most other stuff thats lunix	23:17
DocScrutinizer05	I'm no gamer	23:18
Lava_Croft	then you probably dont need windows, unless forced to by your employer:)	23:18
DocScrutinizer05	exactly, the latter	23:18
DocScrutinizer05	:-/	23:18
kerio	*and for games windows sucks but it's the only OS they make games for	23:18
Lava_Croft	but in 2012, windows isnt as bad as it was in the 90s	23:18
DocScrutinizer05	not even have admin rights	23:18
Lava_Croft	or in the days of vista	23:18
DocScrutinizer05	my employer thinks XP is it	23:19
Lava_Croft	kerio: thats just speculation	23:19
DocScrutinizer05	real fun to plug in a MX Revolution mouse and admin tells me "sorry dude, we're not going to install that driver for you, so you could use horizontal scroll"	23:20
Lava_Croft	thats the fault of your sysop	23:20
Lava_Croft	:)	23:20
DocScrutinizer05	tell me how to not hate windows and all that's related	23:21
Lava_Croft	you can do the same silly shit on linux	23:21
Lava_Croft	but nobody would claim linux sucks then	23:21
DocScrutinizer05	sure you could	23:21
ccssnet	go to your happy place.	23:21
Lava_Croft	instead they would say WFM	23:21
Lava_Croft	and come up with whatever excuse that does apply to linux, but magically will not apply to wintoons	23:21
Lava_Croft	or osx	23:21
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Lava_Croft	been around poor linux lover for too long now to not feel sorry for the linux lovers :<	23:22
DocScrutinizer05	I say windows sucks since it has no resizable windows way too often, cramming some readme or whatever ito a 120*180 pixel "notifier"	23:22
ccssnet	lol	23:22
Lava_Croft	if a readme is crammed in a tiny notifier, thats not windows' fault	23:22
Lava_Croft	but the fault of whoever made the notifier	23:22
DocScrutinizer05	it IS windows' fault	23:22
Lava_Croft	you would never use this example in relation to linux, since for linux you would blame the person who mde the notifier	23:22
ccssnet	120x180 buffer window for a EULA or related is a scam artist move...	23:23
Lava_Croft	but like i said, been around linux folks for a while now	23:23
Lava_Croft	loving linux is like loving jesus	23:23
Lava_Croft	so for normal people like me, its useless to discuss;)	23:23
DocScrutinizer05	a) it's made by microsoft for half of the annoying notifiers, and b) windows does allow such non-resizable windows, while on X I always could tweak windows properties to force resizing	23:23
DocScrutinizer05	s/eak windows/eak the window's /	23:25
infobot	DocScrutinizer05 meant: a) it's made by microsoft for half of the annoying notifiers, and b) windows does allow such non-resizable windows, while on X I always could tweak the window's properties to force resizing	23:25
DocScrutinizer05	and c) the documentation: on linux it's free and readily available (though sometimes really abyssmal), on MS Windows you could either join MSDN premium menbership, or by books for $$$	23:27
DocScrutinizer05	buy*	23:27
DocScrutinizer05	I haven't yet mentioned the OSS property of linux, that allows me to find my way around and even fix things, even without any documantation at all	23:28
Lava_Croft	fun game for normal people	23:30
DocScrutinizer05	while Windows is like... an an "OS" based on a closed source wayland as central building block of whole system, rather than a kernel	23:30
Lava_Croft	replace the word linux with either jesus or god	23:30
Lava_Croft	and have a blast as a random linux lover starts his monologue	23:30
DocScrutinizer05	:shrug:	23:31
Lava_Croft	in other words: its wasted on me, so unless anyone else is really interested in why windows sucks, i would save myself some time! :)	23:31
Lava_Croft	no offense	23:31
* DocScrutinizer05 feels like trapped by trolls		23:31
Lava_Croft	yes, thats usually the next reaction	23:31
Lava_Croft	if someone does not agree and doesnt jump on the bandwagon of windows bashing	23:32
Lava_Croft	its either a troll or someone who knows jackshit about computers	23:32
Lava_Croft	mostly a combination of the two	23:32
Lava_Croft	time to leave you to your work, good night	23:32
DocScrutinizer05	well, you called me silly and irrational for hating software - if I couldn't convince you that my hate is quite justified and rational, I can't help	23:32
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Lava_Croft	hate for a piece of software can never be rational	23:33
Lava_Croft	since its a piece of software	23:33
DocScrutinizer05	now THAT is what I call silly	23:33
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Lava_Croft	far too powerful of an emotion to be wasted on a piece of software	23:33
DocScrutinizer05	since I don't think somebody else has to judge about my emotional economy	23:34
Lava_Croft	i think the moment you express your emotions is the moment you give other people the right to judge them	23:34
DocScrutinizer05	particularly calling me silly is not exactly sane either	23:34
Lava_Croft	but this is going astray	23:34
Lava_Croft	i was using the word silly in an attempt to get across a friendly version of retarded	23:35
Lava_Croft	since i dont want to sound hateful or whatever	23:35
DocScrutinizer05	what about my hate for mint tea?	23:35
Luke-Jr	DocScrutinizer05: hey, that USB hub you said the N900 was discharging on… it seems to keep it charged O.o	23:35
Lava_Croft	how can you hate mint tea?	23:35
Lava_Croft	i mean, one can dislike it or whatever	23:35
Lava_Croft	but hate?	23:35
DocScrutinizer05	maybe your dictionary is different from mine	23:35
DocScrutinizer05	which wouldn't surprise, since it's about emotions	23:36
Lava_Croft	well, you are known for having a thing with drama	23:37
DocScrutinizer05	which is about as precisely defined as terms of taste	23:37
Lava_Croft	so maybe you dont really hate, but use the word hate in an attempt to strengthen the message	23:37
Luke-Jr	hate = will evil toward	23:37
DocScrutinizer05	you are known to troll every now and then, so maybe that's what you do now	23:37
Lava_Croft	Luke-Jr: yes	23:37
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Lava_Croft	DocScrutinizer05: no, but the hating of software just made me interested	23:38
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DocScrutinizer05	ooh you're interested in all things you might classify as "silly2 then? Well, if your time is worth so little	23:39
Lava_Croft	its 2239h	23:39
DocScrutinizer05	I'm out	23:39
Lava_Croft	bb!	23:39
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DocScrutinizer05	since this is definitely trolling now	23:39
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Lava_Croft	i guess its just me that think hating a piece of software is a bit childish	23:40
Lava_Croft	its like a kid saying I HATE BROCCOLI	23:40
Lava_Croft	while in fact the kid means he doesnt like the taste and/or structure of the broccoli	23:40
Luke-Jr	mint tea software, not tea?	23:40
DocScrutinizer05	just a suspicion: your're a teacher? or maybe just a part time teacher on your own kids?	23:43
DocScrutinizer05	seems like you're assuming the definition instance of the symbol dictionary of any communication is on your side	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	read about communication theory a bit	23:44
DocScrutinizer05	might help	23:44
* DocScrutinizer05 starts explaining to the world that there's no such thing like "cool", except for stuff from fridge		23:45
DocScrutinizer05	and weather	23:45
DocScrutinizer05	¡	23:46
DocScrutinizer05	and to drive you comletely nuts: I LOVE broccoli	23:47
Lava_Croft	even worse than a kid's teacher, DocScrutinizer05	23:48
Lava_Croft	I clean rich folks houses	23:48
DocScrutinizer05	while - amazingly enough - I hate cabbage	23:49
Lava_Croft	so bad suspicion on your part :D	23:49
Lava_Croft	i dont hate stuff	23:49
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Lava_Croft	i dont think there's anything i really hate	23:49
Lava_Croft	or anyone	23:49
Lava_Croft	i do dislike a whole lot of shit tho	23:49
Lava_Croft	but, we are keeping each other busy while we both stated we were about to do something else!	23:49
Lava_Croft	im sorry, o/	23:50
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