IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2012-05-19

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MrPinguSpark666 , I don't think so00:15
spark666MrPingu: :(00:16
spark666opera its more fast and touchscreen made for :P00:16
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MrPinguIt's totally  optimized for mobile devices, for sure00:18
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spark666maybe one day the community will port the flash to opera :P00:20
Sicelonot impossible, but highly improbable00:22
MrPinguLet's hope for it ;)00:22
MrPinguBeen playing with xbindkeys and I have some nice keyboard shortcuts now :D00:24
spark666tell us about it :P00:25
MrPinguI installed app-search-app and binded it to Shift + Fn + Up arrow00:26
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MrPinguwhen I press that combination I get a pop up list with app selector ;)00:27
spark666very nice00:27
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spark666where should i write the aliases in ash?00:28
MrPingulemme search...00:28
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MrPinguI have modified it a bit...00:29
MrPinguIsn't it .profile file?00:29
spark666i have no idea,i know in bash its in .bashrc00:33
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MrPinguah bad internet again =(00:37
MrPingufor user it's .profile00:38
MrPingufor root it's .bashr00:38
MrPingu* .bashrc00:38
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MrPinguI had to create .profile in /home/user/00:38
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spark666tnx very much :D00:39
MrPinguYou can also change your PS1 to your own likings ;)00:39
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spark666im trying to get rid of the ash prompt00:40
MrPinguWhat do you mean?00:40
MrPinguThat busybox blabla?00:40
Hurrianuse bash00:40
spark666BusyBox v1.20.0 (Debian 1.20.0power1) built-in shell (ash)00:40
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spark666enter help ...00:41
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spark666yes that one00:41
Hurriansudo apt-get install bash400:41
MrPinguWhy not bash3?00:41
Hurrianln -s /bin/bash4 /bin/bash00:41
MrPinguBash3 can even replace busybox00:42
MrPinguby runing bash-setup00:42
spark666dunno what to say00:42
MrPinguIt was meant for Hurrian ;)00:43
HurrianMrPingu, replace busybox as in replace all users' shell?00:43
DocScrutinizerMrPingu: yes, and it can eat you rcat00:43
Hurrianremove busybox and use coreutils?00:43
spark666afaik bash can replace only for root00:43
MrPinguIt can replace user and root00:43
DocScrutinizeryes, as it will make device bootloop if you do that for user: user00:44
MrPingubut right now I have only busybox installed00:44
DocScrutinizerat least that's the tale00:44
HurrianDocScrutinizer, /bin/bash as shell works fine for root and user00:44
MrPinguDocscrutinizer I replaced it for users also for some time00:44
Hurriannot trying anything else at the moment00:44
MrPinguNo bootloop00:45
DocScrutinizeras long as all your coreutils in fact are still busybox, yes00:45
spark666i installed enchanced busybox00:45
MrPinguWhen you link to gnu-coreutils00:45
MrPinguwell then the fun is on00:45
MrPinguI miss the !! function of bash, actually00:46
HurrianMrPingu, I think another problem is the coreutils being on /opt00:46
MrPinguWhat will happen if we overwrite them in NAND?00:47
DocScrutinizerHurrian: o.O ??00:48
DocScrutinizerHurrian: actually, you might have a point there00:49
MrPinguWho got the ballz to test that point? :P00:49
DocScrutinizerwhat for?00:49
DocScrutinizer~ # bash00:50
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# which ls00:50
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l `which ls`00:50
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 25 2010-07-26 23:57 /usr/bin/gnu/ls -> /opt/maemo/usr/bin/gnu/ls00:50
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infobotsomebody said jrtools was
Siceloi'm playing around with wifi PSM .. anyone can suggest nice values for Beacon interval on the AP to avoid excessive lag with max PSM on N900?00:53
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DocScrutinizerbeacon interval is vastly irrelevant00:56
DocScrutinizereverything from 20/s to 2s/beacon will work00:56
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Sicelowhich setting should i tweak then?00:57
DocScrutinizerprobably 2/s is just fine00:57
Sicelobesides getting a better routter, of course? :P00:57
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DocScrutinizerSicelo: there's one parameter that defines timespan between "meeting points" where both devices are supposed to awake and listen if sth is going on01:01
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DocScrutinizerthat's just one parameter, and I can't recall the name, for the life of mine01:02
DocScrutinizerif however your AP doesn't play nice with N900 implementation of PSM, you're busted01:03
DocScrutinizernothing to tweak then01:03
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MrPinguwtf, my wifi of n900 crashed?01:04
Siceloguess i am.. this AP has setting for Fragmentation Threshold, RTS Threshold, and Beacon Interval (which defaults at 100)01:05
MrPinguBeacon interval, is only used for probing isn't it?01:05
DocScrutinizerSicelo: DTIM interval01:08
DocScrutinizerdefault 101:08
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DocScrutinizerbeacon interval is in ms, 100 means 10 beacons/s01:09
DocScrutinizerwhich is just fine01:09
DocScrutinizer5 would suffice as well01:09
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DocScrutinizerSicelo: iirc there are like 5 flavours of PSM implementations, at least01:10
MrPinguI am looking for that value that you mean, it's some kind of "ping" setting01:11
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* Sicelo gives up.. no DTIM setting here01:12
MrPingu+ for mobile devices you should make the timeouts a bit longer for better results01:12
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MrPingugot be kidding01:14
MrPinguDid I read your mind or you mine? :p01:15
DocScrutinizerhere's probably where doom starts: >>Since beacon frames are sent using the mandatory 802.11 carrier sense multiple access/collision detection (CSMA/CD) algorithm, the access point must wait if a client device is sending a frame when the beacon is to be sent. As a result, the actual time between beacons may be longer than the beacon interval. Client devices that awaken from power-save mode may find that they have to wait longer than01:18
DocScrutinizerexpected to receive the next beacon frame. Client devices, however, compensate for this inaccuracy by utilizing the time-stamp found within the beacon frame.<<01:18
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DocScrutinizerMrPPS: look at timestamp and detal of both URL psts, then guess ;-D01:23
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SiceloN900looks like i can only use Intermediate PSM on this particular Ap01:29
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DocScrutinizernot unusual02:27
Vib3is what02:28
Vib3sup Doc02:28
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Vib3too late to go to bar cos it closes in 1h02:28
Vib3started drinking again too l802:29
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DocScrutinizersounds like Frankfurt02:58
DocScrutinizerthough, not really02:59
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DocScrutinizerpupnik always been way more insulting03:02
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k273hi guys03:45
k273I perceived that Nokia is giving away N950s in contest?03:45
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k273y no massproducing it?03:45
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nox-elop killed it03:47
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k273and from what I get too Nokia isn't too lucky with the way their winphones sell03:48
Hurriank273, yeah, it was surprising03:49
HurrianNokia still had them in stock?03:49
Hurrianhow many warehouses of them do they have?03:49
Hurrianthe whole thing smells of a killed consumer phone03:49
Hurrianprobably ran for exactly one production run03:50
k273What happened? Motorola launched a series of Windows Mobile phones culminating in the Motorola Q “Blackberry killer”.03:50
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k273I wanted that phone, actually, yeeeeeeeeears ago03:51
k273I'm shocked it didn't sell at all back then03:51
k273*I was03:51
k273nox-: that was a heck of an article. thanks!03:52
k273saving it for future reference XD03:53
k273This is the first time that either company has embarked on an alliance of this scope and nature.03:54
Hurriank273, i remember Windows Mobile phones actually selling a decent number of phones03:54
Hurrianthey weren't as popular as Symbian, but suit-people loved them03:55
k273of course, especially their HTC and O2 ones03:55
HurrianWP7 is just meh03:55
k273I tried that. Veeeery clunky03:55
k273It brought back the old Symbian wound in me03:56
k273Clunkiness is never a good thing no matter what03:56
k273N900 is actually great04:00
k273only thing I never tried (and want to) is webOS04:00
k273the PalmOS was decent04:00
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k273Can't think of any other company (in any industry) with 30+% GLOBAL market share voluntarily giving up their own, albeit ailing systems (Symbian, Meego) and switching to just make hardware for someone else.04:21
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Hurriank273, it has been clearly visible that Nokia has committed suicide by going WP04:27
Hurrianthe N9 was the fancy funeral04:27
k273fancy funeral always sucks04:27
k273saw a lot of that kind here04:28
k273the word funeral makes the word fancy lose its meaning.04:31
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psycho_oreosthe vehicles doesn't look like its from 1980s :þ05:52
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* psycho_oreos thinks these demotivational posters have really lost their touch.. or at least in quality sort of sense05:56
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k273time makes everything age, psycho_oreos05:57
k273or *age05:57
k273yeah, age05:57
k273not natively English speaking here05:58
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psycho_oreosyeah I can see that but still that image doesn't really suit the message that the author wants to convey if one has even just a hint on the things the author uses it in their picture/photo. It kinda really ruins the whole thing if you know what I mean06:00
k273I can see your point, psycho_oreos06:01
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Hurrian should be demotivatored.06:10
Hurrianif these prehistoric hard drives weren't so rare, I'd bet that people would try to use them as electric car motors06:11
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r00t|homeHurrian: while they sure have stronger motors than today's HDDs, i doubt that they can power a car...08:44
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Estel_freemangordon,  if everyone assumes that "thumb2 can't work on N900" yet isn't able to give any details - beside reffering to erratas...09:23
Estel_that You've already made working, + another single errata that is irrelevant due to way first errata works09:24
Estel_+ without it system crashes every few seconds, and with it, it runs fine for ages + no indication of errors whatsoever09:24
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Estel_...You can safely conclude that other people are spreading FUD, because they haven't did research You've performed09:25
Estel_just use erratas, and if someone, anytime, notice anything that might be related to regression, You will think about it again09:25
Estel_Personally, I doubt that will ever happen, it just "works"09:26
Estel_my 2 cents09:26
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Estel_I totally appreciate Your will to trace every single information that might lead to finding any regressions, but, it just seems everyone is saying "it wont work" without any merit. Especially, that You actually "experienced" that it works via Ubuntu 12.0409:29
Estel_on anither topic - freemangordon, do You remember, that we tried to chase ancient reboot bug?09:30
Estel_I got idea what may be causing it09:30
Estel_Could You edit /etc/default/kernel-boot and enable "early ssh"?09:30
Estel_then, try rebooting few times09:30
Estel_if You get hit by bug, it is it09:31
Estel_ping Pali09:34
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dm8tbrEstel_: so ARM employees are spreading fud, huh? did you even bother to read the relevant IRC log?10:43
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dm8tbrEstel_: the most elegant way to prove beyond doubt would be if there would be explicit test-cases for the errata involved and it could be tried out in a before/after fashion. So far I don't think those exist.10:45
dm8tbrthe fact that 'it just runs' is not proof. I've seen such bugs strike under regular operation once every 24/48/72h or even less often (statistically).10:47
ShadowJKI recall mru tends to spend weeks on working around hw and compiler bugs whenever a new arm chip arrives10:49
ShadowJKso if he gave up on it, I'd take his word on it10:49
Hurrianthe technical docs say that the chip /should/ be able to run thumb/thumb-2 binaries. but there's a problem in the chip, so we can't run them properly.10:51
Hurriana software fix is out, but it doesn't work (???)10:51
dm8tbrShadowJK: also he specifically said 'tricky' and that it might not be worth it. he didn't rule out the possibility that it could be fixed.10:52
Hurrianother than ubuntu blatantly failing to work properly in a chroot, occasionally rebooting the phone or crashing apt-get upgrades, we're not getting any indication that the bug is actually doing it's buggy thing10:52
Hurriansince this bug happens randomly (but it should happen, given TI acknowledged the fault), it's difficult to make tester for it10:53
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Hurrianlet's chalk it up to the list of things Nokia didn't do to optimize Linux for the N90011:00
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Estel_dm8tbr,  of course I've read logs. Basically, this "arm employe" fail to provide rationale on "how exactly" freemangordon's implemented errata couldn't work.12:10
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Estel_it's just like "trust me on that (tm)"12:10
* dm8tbr headdesks12:10
Estel_trust may work when some noob ask if kp developers could make more ram in N900 ;) but in this case, it's too low for a reason12:10
Estel_thats why freemangordon concluded, how he hates that everyone is saying "it can't work" but fail to provide technical reason12:11
Estel_if YOU think that freemangordon's proposed implementation of two erratas WON'T work, it's YOUR duty to provide reason, not his to prove that he is not a camel (tm)12:12
Estel_up to now, he provided good arguments why kernel and bin errata should work, and why, in case of using those two, 3th errata is irrelevant (flushing whole range by 1st errata, when 3th errata is about flushing part of range)12:13
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Estel_now, I don't care if it was said by random arm employe or not - if he fails to provide technical counter-arguments, it's not valid his reasoning, IMO12:14
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Estel_any counter-arguments appreciated, instead of plumping sounds and hitting desk ;)12:14
Estel_as I see there is no proper (or any) counter-reasons, I will say something more12:19
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Estel_for me, this conversation on *beagle was miserably pathetic12:20
Estel_mru just said "it won't work, stick to arm code"12:20
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Estel_while freemangordon's questions about any other erratas etc meet only silence12:20
Estel_"even if You can set secure bit, it's hard or impossible to do it properly"12:21
Estel_"just stick to arm code or get other chip"12:21
Estel_cmon, it's pathetic12:21
Estel_that guy just don't have idea, and instead of saying that stright "sorry, I don't know", hes playing "wise".12:21
Estel_just my 2 cents, as non-developer, following logic, common sense, and overall sticking with meritocratic approach.12:22
Estel_see ya later, I'm very interested how all of this is going to conclude.12:22
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teotwaki_Python can be so redundant sometimes...13:28
teotwaki_except Exception as exception:13:28
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kerioteotwaki_: you'd use e or something15:32
kerioand expecting Exception is probably stupid15:32
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DocScrutinizerI'm all with Estel_ and freemanG about those who claim to know should share their wisdom with freemanG who has proven to be willing to really learn and wasn't like "HLP PLZZ!!". I'm all with dm8tbr regarding we need a proper testbed showing efficiency of erratum bug fix in a 100% reproducible and analyzable way, so dudes like mru can look into it and explain what's still missing16:56
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Estel_I'm all with DocScrutinizer about those two sentences ;)16:59
Estel_but, I think You'll agree, that - in case of testbed being extremely hard to prepare (not feasible) due to bug nature, AND and the same time, arguments about invalidity if erratas (that freemangordon used) wrong, we may conclude that observation in "real life" is enough?17:00
Estel_Well, it seems to me that such practice isn't used against other bugs too17:01
DocScrutinizerthere's no such thing like an impossible to prepare testbed17:01
Estel_I hope so.17:01
Estel_and I said "not feasible"17:01
Estel_what I understand from those bits of info17:01
Estel_nature of this bug is so low-level random17:02
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Estel_that we would need expensive hardware debuggers to prepare "proper" testbeds17:02
Estel_yet, result of this bug = crashes every few second, that we experience in thumb2 compiled ubuntu on N900 *without* errata17:03
DocScrutinizerif you understand the nature of the bug, you're able to prepare a testbed that will provoke the bug sooner or later, and it will provoke the bug in a way you're closely monitoring and able to read the gdb trace of it later on and spot the one instruction that failed and didn't behave like expected17:03
Estel_...and, dissapearing (crashes) totally, *with* errata enabled as per freemangordon17:03
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Estel_generally, true, and I would love to see this17:04
Estel_but just *in case* of proper testbed requiring ARM hardware cpu tools ;)17:04
Estel_I think it's not feasible to still chase it, *if* it doesn't give any bad results17:05
Estel_thinking like that, we would never have hostmode on N90017:05
Estel_many things there are not "tested" for 100%, and some of them even obviously wrong (idle power consumption), yet, we use it hapilly17:06
Estel_if freemangordon would need to spend 10k $ on equipment to hardware'ish test those low-level things, that TI already did...17:06
DocScrutinizerthat's absolute nonsense17:07
Estel_just to confirm that *their* errata is working like they said17:07
Estel_... just to be 100% sure that we're not hit by bug that doesn't produce any real-life visible errors...17:07
Estel_It would be not feasible, IMO ;)17:07
DocScrutinizeras I understand it this errata are pretty clearly defined and not at all occuring at random17:07
Estel_well, those who say that errata can't work told "us" that freemangordon's result (dissapearing of crashes in thumb2 ubuntu) are not valid17:08
Estel_due to random nature17:08
Estel_what I understand from errata is also *"ot*random nature17:08
Estel_but, this "not random" nature was hammered out, as it obviously stopped crashing17:09
Estel_now, we're hunting invisible random bug that doesn't give any problems (!) and it's even unknown how this bug works and why it's random17:10
Estel_cause people claiming it's existence don't want to share it17:10
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Estel_with all proportions, it's like abil's "mysterious" fix for N90017:10
Estel_sometimes, reading logs from #beagle and so on, I think that everyone just "heard" about this bug17:11
Estel_I bet that this is just big bullsh|t, due to fact, that previous erratas were *"ot* working, while people using them though that they've worked17:11
DocScrutinizerno, we're testing a deterministic silicon erratum with a basically random testbed17:11
Estel_and You know what? I may be wrong...17:12
Estel_But I think that no one before freemangordon tried to enable this errata for N900 using proper secure monitor or how it's called17:12
DocScrutinizerand the check for efficiency of any patch is "I didn't see anything bad happen" :-S17:12
Estel_= those people though that errata is enabled, yet still encountered random crashes17:13
Estel_-> gave up.17:13
DocScrutinizerquite possible17:13
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Estel_then, FUD started to live, that it doesn't work even with errata enabled17:13
DocScrutinizerEstel_: on such delicate topic please check your wording - an erratum can't get enabled17:14
Estel_thanks for correcting me.17:14
Estel_but I'm sure You get what I mean, i.e. merit17:14
Estel_no irony that I appreciate it - others would like to catch me on such details.17:15
Estel_... and sophism'ish try to use it as counter-reasoning ;)17:15
DocScrutinizerjust you won't get atention from thiose we're trying to convince we need their expertise (mru et al) if we sound like noobs17:15
Estel_erm, proper sentence would be "errata applied" ?17:15
DocScrutinizerpatch / workarround applied17:16
Estel_btw, it seems to me that "mru et all" just doesn't care ;)17:16
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DocScrutinizerit a set of annoying silicon errata against a chip revision they all never again will touch in whole their life17:17
Estel_... which bring me to conclusion that if does work (and it obviously does, as thumb2 compiled ubuntu stopped to crash) we could just movde forward...17:18
Estel_and go back to this only if someone encounter bug apperance, OR idea for proper testbed.17:18
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DocScrutinizerwell, I'll not support any such enterprise as long as no decent story about how the bugfix works is delivered. And hosnestly I'm not interested that much in all this thumb thing either - I mean it's not like it will magically turn N900 into N99017:20
DocScrutinizerthere's not a single ticket in tracker that gets closed by changing anything to thumb17:20
Estel_sure thing, but decent story how it works *is* given already17:20
Estel_but we can use thumb2 compiled things with, lets say, Mer kernel (nemo kernel)17:21
DocScrutinizererrr wut?17:21
Estel_let's say, for example, about this overrated ubuntu 12.04 thing17:21
DocScrutinizeryou're aware we need to compile any kernel for N900 anyway, and thumb vs arm is a compiler flag, not a property of the kernel c source17:22
Estel_re-comiling this whole sh...t to non-thumb2 is non feasible17:22
Estel_of course17:22
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Estel_I mean that with little help from U-boot17:22
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Estel_we can set errata properly and use (properly compiled) nemo kernel17:22
Estel_with, for example, Lubuntu 12.0417:22
Estel_without recompiling the latter17:23
Estel_proper nemo kernels for N900  are already available17:23
Estel_and used ;)17:23
DocScrutinizerso how the heck are they related to thumb vs arm then?17:23
Estel_havent tested it myself, but reportedly, without unity bloat, ubuntu works blazingly fast17:23
Estel_ubuntu 12.04 is thumb2 compiled17:24
DocScrutinizerand that's related to mer kernel how?17:24
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: and that's related to nemo kernel how?17:25
DocScrutinizerhonestly, pushing THUMB silicon erratum patches into CSSU to enable nemo kernel to enable ubuntu, that's paradox17:26
Estel_Who said to cssu?17:28
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DocScrutinizeraiui freemanG already accepted my suggestion to have a sysnode for enabling his thumb patches, in powerkernel. So everybody is free to enable it. I'm not convinced moving *fremantle* stuff to thumb will bring any benefit fo the general masses17:28
Estel_mer kernel is newer version than default Maemo one + it contain some things (modules?) for hardware17:29
Estel_that doesn't work with vanilla kernel of same version number17:29
Estel_btw, errata isn't enabled in kernel-power, as for non thumb compiled code it's only slowdown (yet, not noticeable in real time)17:30
DocScrutinizerEstel_: thanks for explaining that to me - after all I suggested it17:30
Estel_CSSU doesn't have anything to do with it17:31
Estel_cause only usage for errata is outside Maemo17:31
DocScrutinizerthat's one of my points17:31
Estel_erm, haven't You noticed that whole errata saga is related to N900as hardware, not Maemo?;)17:31
DocScrutinizeryet freemanG can't forget his dream to have Qt and GTK and whatnot else turned to thumb, in CSSU17:32
DocScrutinizerthat's where whole argument started17:32
Estel_if it would work faster than without thumb, why not?17:34
Estel_after all, we have cssu -devel for purpose ;)17:34
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ShadowJKI'd like to see benchmarks, because iirc at the time omap3 came out and the people in #beagle tried thumb2, once all errata was applied the speed benefit was lost, and they still had random crashes weekly17:37
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ShadowJK(and mru wasn't an arm employee at that time, they probably hired him because he was filling up their bugtrackers)17:38
ShadowJKivwe also seen this convo in #mer / nemo / etc17:41
DocScrutinizer(why not) simply because I bought a device with an OS that's supposed to work error free, and that property somehow been warranted by Nokia at that time. CSSU is meant to continue on that proposition, not introducing a "FMG said 'WFM'" type of scary huge modification, just for... what really now?17:41
DocScrutinizerand no, cssu-devel also is meant to host projects *meant* for cssu-T and eventually cssu-S17:42
DocScrutinizerhosting thumb Qt there is as nonsensical in my book, as it was to host mer there17:43
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DocScrutinizersomebody once decided it's not worth the effort or not rewarding or simply not feasible to have fixed thumb in fremantle. This decission been done at Nokia once, and unless we get a *scientific* approach to prove why we could change that now, and also why we *should* change that now, I don't see the benefit of including any such stuff to CSSU17:46
Estel_well, someone decided at nokia that we wont have hostmode17:46
Estel_yet we have it, despite not being totally *scientific* proper usb compliant approach17:46
DocScrutinizeryes, and I took *scientific* approach to show it can be done nevertheless17:46
Estel_if it will result in like what ShadowJK described - speed benefit lost and random problems, or even just speed benefit lost, of course17:47
Estel_no way to put it17:47
DocScrutinizerit took me ~9 months to collect all the pieces17:47
Estel_if, on the other hand, it would turn out working great, "scientific approach" would be needed to reason why *not* put it there17:48
DocScrutinizerand it's been reviewed and explained to the sincle opcode how it works and that it actually works like that17:48
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Estel_of course, but still things like low transfer speed (4 mbps) are strange17:48
Estel_yet, we have hostmode available already17:48
Estel_it would be stupid to wait until we tune all clock values etc17:48
DocScrutinizerEstel_: I'm not going to argue on that basis anymore, it's basically OT17:49
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Estel_btw, I agree that no way of putting it into CSSU if it don't work. If it work and gain benefits, just put it. simple as that ;) after all, it's better replacement (deven compile-wise) of current things17:49
Estel_no problem17:49
Estel_btw my personal expectation is that we're not going to see any benefits from thumb2 on Maemo ;)17:50
Estel_it's just strange to me, that this errata and thumb thing rise so much controversy, while other things with more impact on Maemo doesn't.17:50
DocScrutinizerafter all hostmode is a dedicated app everybody is free to enable and disable or just don't use it. Thumb-Qt in CSSU is forvefeeding stuff to a targeted custumer base that has no choice at all, except that nasty "you're free to not use CSSU"17:51
JaffaEstel_: It's ironic that similar people are pushing for thumb in CSSU as also bemoaned the effort into coming up with a good packaging solution for rewrites in CSSU17:51
DocScrutinizerwhich I promise I'll kill somebody eventually if this argument "your're free not to use..." will get used again17:51
Estel_Jaffa, no idea what You're talking about - I'm not pushing for thumb in CSSU and I don't know anyone who is doing so.17:52
JaffaEstel_: So no-one's pushing for it, no-one's doing the work and this is an entirely pointless discussion? Goodo.17:52
Estel_well, consensus seems to look like "CSSU is for both things not-applicable via extras AND FOSS rewrites/bugfixesof closed bits"17:52
Estel_Jaffa,  no one is pushing for it, yet, one talented guy is working to check if it gains any benefit for Maemo17:53
Estel_got problem with that? ;) last time I've checked everyone was free to work on whatever she/he want17:53
DocScrutinizerthat's exactly NOT the precise thing he does17:53
DocScrutinizerhe *assumes* it is beneficial for maemo, and pushing to get Qt-thumb et al into CSSU17:54
Estel_honestly? it is. Have You ever heard that he is planning to put thumb2 and enable errata for CSSU without proving that it's faster/doesn't result in random crashes?17:54
merlin1991gotta love the reoccuring theme on here17:54
Estel_how he is pushing it into CSSU?17:54
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DocScrutinizerwell, even you did, some posts above17:55
Estel_I just said that if it turns out to be working good, why not.17:55
Estel_If it doesn't provide benefits/maked regressions, a no-go.17:55
Estel_simple as that.17:55
DocScrutinizerand "turns out to be working" been up to your discretion to define that17:55
DocScrutinizernot with me17:56
Estel_honestly, I see more problem with replacing kp enter and enter in terminal ;)17:56
DocScrutinizercheers, I need a coffee now17:56
Estel_thumb2 is just different argument for compilation, yeo?17:56
Estel_yep*what do You want to define here17:56
Estel_working faster/doesn't crash randomly = OK17:56
Estel_no speed advantage OR worse speed OR random bugs - if anything check17:57
Estel_then TRASH17:57
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Estel_seriously, CSSU got  more controversial things already17:57
Estel_I just don't get why thumb2 heats up discussion so much17:57
Estel_take Your time, I'll be off soon17:58
Estel_+ I'm absolutely sure freeman is reasonable guy and he won't want to include thumb2 into stable CSSU even on smallest signals that it may pose any regressions OR don't provide benefits.17:59
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Estel_btw, Jaffa, are You working on something for CSSU, that collides with thumb idea?18:00
JaffaEstel_: Not that I know of. Just experience with ARM coding and some of the problems switching instruction modes can have.18:02
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Estel_I see. All meritocratic reasons are worth to consider18:02
JaffaGiven CSSU doesn't have much organised regression testing the more lower level changes, the greater the risk of a large, unnoticed, regression18:02
Estel_so if You already know about anything that could break or will find it in future, everyone will be glad to hear it18:03
JaffaEstel_: Of course. But low-level changes are risky; which means the balance of evidence has to be dramatic.18:03
Estel_well, with guys like You and DocScrutinizer testing it religiously18:03
Estel_I doubt anything will get unnoticed ;)18:03
JaffaEstel_: BTW, English tip - "you" isn't capitalised.18:03
Estel_heh, sure thing, I'm using it as a way of showing respect to someone I'm talking with18:04
Estel_if it's totally wrong in english, I'll drop it, thanks for tip18:04
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Estel_I agree about balance of evidence18:04
DocScrutinizerI'm not doing any regression tests18:05
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  kinda joking18:05
Estel_btw what about this "You" versus "you", are, erm, you sure that it is't allowed in english at all (grammar)18:06
Estel_I always though it's form used in letters etc18:06
Estel_You, He, She, etc18:07
DocScrutinizerand freemanG for sure is no unresponsible fool, it just seems he - just like you - has not much experience with risk management in SW projects18:07
Estel_I agree that I don't have experience in risk management in SW, can't say for freeman. Although, I wouldn't worry unless we have "physical" reason for it (something collapsing)18:08
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  are You naive english speaker?18:08
Estel_what, bullshit question18:08
DocScrutinizeryes ;-P18:08
DocScrutinizerI'm a very naive english speaker18:08
Estel_epic typo18:09
Estel_almost like one I made when I wanted to write to someone "at least You got moral satisfaction"18:09
Estel_and it resulted in "at least You get oral satisfaction"18:09
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* ShadowJK imagines hardfloat abi is bigger boost than thumn2+errata anyway18:13
* DocScrutinizer frowns at Qt using floats at all, figues a performance boost of factor 100 for Qt rewrite using proper fixedpoint arithmetics18:16
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DocScrutinizerstill I never would suggest to include such stuff into CSSU18:16
DocScrutinizeras *nobody* can figure what's going to happen18:17
DocScrutinizeractually I think Qt used float/real just for two reasons: a) coders always are lazy and generally have no idea about proper fixedpoint, b) on contemporary X86, float is basically free of penalty due to powerful coprocessor18:19
DocScrutinizerb) doesn't hold true on ARM / embedded though18:20
Estel_Intel inside ;)18:22
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Estel_DocScrutinizer,  do whole qt rewrite, You'll get both N950 and N9 in both categories ;)18:26
Estel_considering Your calculation of N950 value (R&D / number of N950produced) You'll be a millionare18:26
Estel_erm, IF Jaffa is right about You being totally denied in proper english, it will be hard like hell to get accustomed...18:27
Estel_to not use it. I love those letter'ish forms.18:27
DocScrutinizerwhile you're at it, here's another one: was / is it you who constantly uses "ho ever" instead of "however"18:28
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* DocScrutinizer breaks an old kbd into 104 pieces and rewrites each keycap with a nice "W". Throws the 104 "W" into the channel - "to whom it may concern"18:31
* DocScrutinizer slaps <self> for constantly usong "dunno" instead of "don't know"18:32
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Estel_yea, it's me18:39
Estel_it's funny, as I though that hoever is proper18:39
Estel_it's funny, as I though that hoever is proper18:39
Estel_yet, spell checker corrected me to ancient form of "ho ever"18:39
Estel_well, need to trust spellcheckers less ;)18:39
Estel_unless planning to play in original shakespare18:40
* ShadowJK suddenly realizes what he's currently working on is kinda silly18:40
Estel_compared to our englighted discussion?:P18:40
Estel_ShadowJK,  why in Your reswap script You're using 600MB as value for "respawn needed" ?18:41
* DocScrutinizer HO HO HOOO18:41
ShadowJKbecause my primary swap was somewhere between 600 and 700 in size18:42
ShadowJKnow actually 2 gigs18:42
Estel_;) just though that using 768 mb, 600 is when fragmentation got chances of starting to bite18:42
DocScrutinizersounds about right18:43
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ShadowJKfragmentation starts right after size of swap actually18:43
Estel_it's kinda funny, as using 768, I - most of the time - "feel" when UI become sluggish, then, using reswap, it's 50-100 MB after 600 treeshold18:43
Estel_only after? can't start before?18:43
ShadowJKi dont think so18:43
Estel_I feel it ~700 MB of 768 swap used, sometime, little less, and fopr sure it isn't placeb18:44
DocScrutinizerAIUI swap writes are strictly sequential until whole swap space got "used up"18:44
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Estel_i.e. written at least once during swap "life"?18:45
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DocScrutinizerwhere it starts to re-use formerly used and then freed swap chunks -> fragmentation18:45
Estel_I see18:45
ShadowJKCurrently I'm rewiring a "fixed with chewing gum, duct tape and metal wire" system of 30kW in power, only I found no proper cable so I'm using some scavenged cable I found that viosually looks like it *might* handle the power. It feels silly replacing a half-arsed system with slightly less half-arsed18:45
Estel_heh. What is using those 30kW?18:46
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sounds like you're at work ;-P18:46
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DocScrutinizergoing to have another nice fireworks?18:47
* DocScrutinizer foggily recalls some talk about IBGTs18:48
ShadowJKactually I just threw out 6 40 Amp omron SSRs18:48
DocScrutinizermotor? or heating?18:49
ShadowJKgoing to be 8 Siemens contactors driven with 20second "pwm" duty cycle now18:49
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DocScrutinizerwell, depending on physical I parameter of that PID system, a 20s PWN is/might_be absolutely sane - reducing number of cycles that may wear the circuitry18:51
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ShadowJKThese are one of the few SSRs that actually survived here18:51
ShadowJKBut that's because they were protected by some "hidden" fast-blow mcbs that were forgotten at some point18:51
ShadowJKbecause there was a second set of slow blow mcbs after those...18:52
DocScrutinizerwow, strange design18:52
ShadowJKWhen old regulation system died a new one was just hurriedly slapped ontop of old thing18:53
DocScrutinizerusual practice18:53
DocScrutinizeridling machinery costs more than running machinery18:53
ShadowJKwhy im doing it on saturday 7pm18:54
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DocScrutinizerEstel_: that's the type of thinking that teaches how to maintain huge systems. When your little patch has any potential to stop a factory with 3000 employees for a whole day, you're not suggesting "let's try what happens when we replace Qt by a thumb compiled version"18:56
DocScrutinizersame for a sw system that's used by 1000s of users18:57
DocScrutinizersome of them maybe doctors, firemen, wallstreet brokers, whatever18:57
DocScrutinizer10% speed gain simply doesn't matter18:57
DocScrutinizerif such huge unpredictable risk is the downside of the equation18:58
DocScrutinizeryou not even start thinking about such move, unless you got proper testbed that - on a scientific basis - proves your patch is OK and rock solid18:59
DocScrutinizerall this rationale doesn'T apply to hostmode at all18:59
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DocScrutinizerstill we (I avid the "I" here) invested any reasonable effort to understand and explain and trace on machine level what's going on19:00
DocScrutinizerand it's no surprise ShadowJK been one of the valuable contributors in that effort19:01
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ShadowJKyou can call me Mr Luddite ;-)19:03
DocScrutinizerEstel_: I was able to *guarantee* there's no possible hw impact with using hostmode *beta*, as well as no possible incorrect usage that would cause any harm to either N900 or attached device (besides the inevitable always existing threats involved with unplugging mounted storage)19:09
DocScrutinizerfor any ARM->THUMB adventure, we can actually guarantee nuttin19:10
DocScrutinizerexcept huge headache in future bug triage, as _all_ future bugs have one more possible cause: this very thumb migration19:11
DocScrutinizerwhile benefit is what exactly? Allegedly improved speed? More free space in root for what exactly?19:13
keriowhat's thumb?19:14
DocScrutinizerhell, even improved speed theoretically can introduce new bugs showing up, that previously simply were covered by the system sluggishness19:14
kerioalso more space in root to remove optification19:14
DocScrutinizerkerio: you can't remove optification19:15
keriobut i really want to!19:15
DocScrutinizeryou can tweak your system to what I suggested in19:15
infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"19:15
DocScrutinizersome time ago19:15
DocScrutinizer~factinfo optification19:15
infobotoptification -- created by DocScrutinizer <~jr@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Mar 15 10:29:39 2010 (796 days); last modified at Wed Nov 30 04:17:02 2011 by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 98 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 13s ago; it has been locked by DocScrutinizer.19:15
DocScrutinizeryou can do that at the expense of making your system incompatible to any NOKIA OTA update19:16
DocScrutinizeras all the official repos and fiasco images rely on optification being in place19:17
DocScrutinizerI hoped for Nokia doing the sane cut on PR1.2 and again on PR1.3 to replace optification by what I suggested up there19:18
DocScrutinizerthey didn't19:18
DocScrutinizerrisk management19:18
DocScrutinizernow we're stuck with binaries living in /usr/[s]bin which SHALL live in /[s]bin, and thus /usr has to live in rootfs rather than own partition, where optification kicks in and symlinks each binary NOT needed at early boot time form /usr/[s]bin/* to /opt/*/[s]bin/*19:22
DocScrutinizerdefinition of /usr -> all stuff NOT needed during early boot. Nokia ignored that19:23
JaffaEstel_: FWIW, "You" in English is only ever capitalised at the start of sentence. "He" tends to be capitalised when being religious and talking about God. It might also be capitalised in contracts if it's defined at the start. But never in conversational English, or even business letters.19:24
kerioyeah, i've read the FHS :919:24
DocScrutinizerit's up to *maintainer* of distro to move appropriate stuff from /usr/sbin to /sbin19:24
DocScrutinizerit's not like devels of XY binary decided for all times it has to live in /usr/sbin19:25
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DocScrutinizerNokia never got the catch on that19:25
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kerioDocScrutinizer: the thing is, most stuff that installs by default in /usr/ should probably not be needed during boot19:26
kerioi mean, we need to load pulseaudio just for the fucking mr hands video19:26
DocScrutinizerso the *real* optification whould've moved stuff from /usr/sbin to /sbin, and then moved /usr to eMMC and mount it19:27
DocScrutinizerkerio: exactly19:27
keriofucking nokia19:27
DocScrutinizerthe devel introducing that hands-video whould've been responsible to make PA move from /usr to /19:27
keriooh well, nokia is dead anyway19:27
keriono, the devel introducing that hands video should've been shot and buried in unholy ground19:28
DocScrutinizerack ;-P19:28
keriobut yeah, as a second option he should've moved pulseaudio to /[s]bin19:28
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keriohell, why didn't nokia realize that only linux nerds would've bought the n900 willingly?19:30
DocScrutinizerJaffa: (re proper English) what's the (etymological) rationale for capital "I" then?19:30
kerioDocScrutinizer: a lowercase "i" is the imaginary unit19:31
kerioand/or the index of a loop19:31
kerioclearly we need to avoid ambiguity :P19:31
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Anyone who claims English is sensible or logical doesn't know it ;-)19:31
JaffaDocScrutinizer: IOW, no idea. Just "is". I'm not a linguist, unfortunately19:32
DocScrutinizerJaffa: that's for sure :-D19:32
kerioDocScrutinizer: anyway, we've complained about optification many times19:32
kerioto nobody in particular, but still19:32
DocScrutinizerthis ship is gone19:32
DocScrutinizerunless we bring it back in CSSU next month ;-P19:33
keriothe real thing i'm mad about is that there's no good modern linux pocket computer19:33
kerioeven if i bought another n900 (mine is about to die) it would still have too little ram and too little cpu19:33
DocScrutinizerkerio: you *might* consider it a challenge to get nice stuff running despite (or even due to) low memory and little CPU grunt19:34
DocScrutinizeras bloatware rarely ever is the solution to demand for decently working apps19:35
kerioyeah, but it still sucks :(19:35
kerioopenpandora + dumbphone is ridiculous19:36
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kerioalthough it could actually be sensible19:36
DocScrutinizerkerio: without sarcasm, could you think again and then explain what exactly sucks, in terms of UX19:36
DocScrutinizerok, HAM is slow as hell19:37
kerioi suppose i can't actually talk though19:37
kerioi'm stuck on PR1.219:37
DocScrutinizerphone-ui sometimes laggy19:38
kerioand i actually love the UX19:38
kerio(apart from HAM, yeah)19:38
kerio(but then again, who uses HAM?)19:39
DocScrutinizerthough I found a LOT of phone-ui lag is introduced by rotation and lately (on my system) by trackerd starting indexing as soon as recaller is writing the call .wav19:39
kerioooooh right19:39
kerioforgot about that19:39
Sicelow/in 2519:39
keriotracker is a fucking stupid idea19:39
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DocScrutinizera fsckng stupid idea nd concept they perfected in HARM19:41
kerioDocScrutinizer: it would be awesome on a quadcore with 8gb of ram19:41
DocScrutinizerI hate the whole concept of replacing classical pathnames by a flat relational database that's not even integrated into filesystem19:42
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DocScrutinizerHECk - WHAT FOR we _got_ a filesystem when trackerd is set up to eliminate it19:43
keriobut iphone!19:44
kerioand ipad!19:44
kerioi suppose that tracker is ok if you only make it index a single directory19:44
DocScrutinizerthat's a concept done by somebody trying to mimic apple while not even understanding the basics about it - completely ignoring this whole concept never panned out on iPhone as well19:44
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keriowell, it pans out quite nicely for music19:44
DocScrutinizernot even there19:45
kerioless so for videos and pictures, i guess19:45
kerioand OH GOD WHY so for generic files19:45
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Estel_Jaffa,  thanks a lot for explanation - will need to get used to it ;)20:09
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Estel_I can't recall why I always though You is a polite way in letters20:10
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  historically, bot You and I (+ He She) was used by capital letters, thats why I've mentioned shakespare20:11
Estel_it still live when talking religiously about god as jaffa pointed20:11
Estel_well, religy doesn't like changes20:11
Estel_it was a concept of great respect for someone20:12
Estel_in many languages it still live20:12
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Estel_i.e in polish you is "ty", but, in letters, we still use "Ty"20:12
Estel_not in common writing of course20:12
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  as for testbeds erc, fortunatelly, we're not nokia and instead of risk management, we may use common sense :P20:13
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Estel_any other drawback from doing optification as You suggested, besides nokia OTI breakage?20:13
Estel_BTW, as for tracker and recaller, it may be good idea to exclude recording's catalog from tracker via tracker cfg20:15
Estel_my recaller recordings are written to truecrypt partition, that is excluded as a whole20:15
Estel_but even simple directory filter should do the job20:16
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DocScrutinizermy trackerd.cfg is fsckdup20:16
Estel_ok, now little request20:16
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Estel_Could You please take look at:20:16
Estel_goddamn, something emptied my clipboard20:17
Estel_fuck that, I need to refresh zerobin page @ 10 kbps connection20:17
Estel_thanks godness it's not bloated20:17
Estel_...and tell me if it's ash or bas compliant?20:18
DocScrutinizerwrt "common sense" - "we" need to take care of the majority of devels that aren't even aware of the term and concept. This mindset of those usually results in statements like "we need to put this into CSSU, as it's the right thing and it's bleeding edge and it would go unnoticed when we don't"20:18
DocScrutinizerEstel_: I'm not a living bash, so I have a hard time to evaluate if a script is bash or ash compliant20:19
Estel_for me, if initial testings show no regressions AND decent gain, cssu-devel is good testbed, and cssu-testing later. BUT we don't have any candidate now, so we're sharing wild boar's skin :P20:20
Estel_ok, sorry20:20
Estel_it's just that this simple script doesn't work for me and I can't find reason20:20
Estel_and by "doesn't work" I really mean it20:20
Estel_no error messages20:20
Estel_no exit codes20:20
Estel_it's a wrapper for "eject" program20:20
Estel_my skill are low so I could miss somethimg, but I can't any place where it should fail20:21
Estel_now, executing it just starts new line in terminal20:22
DocScrutinizerEstel_: looks like ash to me20:22
DocScrutinizerconsider >>set -vx<<20:23
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DocScrutinizerEstel_: also check true content of all your ENV vars you use there20:25
DocScrutinizersome of them generated by grep etc might not look like you expect them to do20:26
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Estel_yea, checked that20:28
Siceloi'm sure you can also re-write this line to only use 'grep' instand of also using cat .. (cat /proc/driver/musb_hdrc | grep Mode=)20:28
Estel_also ensuredd that all commands parsed to "eject" works when done by hand20:28
Estel_Sicelo, thanks20:28
Estel_I just dont get one thing20:29
Sicelobtw, this is N900?20:29
Estel_IF grep etc would give unexpected or non-existent results...20:29
Estel_then, eject would be called with wron/lack of values and complain20:29
Estel_instead of this, I just get new line20:29
Estel_in terminal. No errors no "fuck You" no anything20:30
ShadowJKgrr. I have phase to phase continuity of 40R where there's supposed to be none. I spotted a plastic junction box deformed from heat.. Good thing I measured stuff before trying to flip on power20:30
DocScrutinizerEstel_: add >set -vx< after shebang20:30
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: OUCH20:31
Estel_Sicelo, of course it's not my script, unfortunately. Blue_led wrote that, but hes absent. I asked about it a week ago without reply20:31
DocScrutinizer~220** / 4020:31
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  erm20:31
DocScrutinizer~220**2 / 4020:31
Estel_set what? remember, it's not my script, I'm trying to fix it20:32
DocScrutinizerset -vx20:32
DocScrutinizeras 2nd line20:32
Estel_please write in simple sentences what to replace with what, and, prefferably, why, so I can learn20:32
DocScrutinizerafter shebang line20:32
Estel_and do it myself next time :P20:32
Estel_ouh, literally20:32
Estel_I though You're using mental shortcut20:33
DocScrutinizerset -vx20:33
Estel_Yea, did that, What it's supposed to do?20:34
DocScrutinizer -v  Print shell input lines as they are read.20:34
DocScrutinizer -x  Print commands and their arguments as they are executed.20:34
SiceloEstel_: so where can i also get 'eject' ?20:35
DocScrutinizerhelp set20:35
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  thanks a lot!20:35
Estel_Sicelo, wait a second20:35
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Estel_Sicelo, normally, I would give You a direct link, but I'm on ~10kbps connection, so wouldn't You mind if I give Your "verbal" instructions?20:36
Estel_go to tmo and write "cdrom eject" in search box20:37
Estel_first result should be it20:37
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Estel_Sicelo,  few days ago I've tested optical media reader and hostmode, of course it worked great, and eject program is nice addition, helps in automating things20:39
Sicelool. ok. thanks :p20:39
Estel_blue_led script should give it icing on top20:40
Estel_I planned to upgrade this script to provide more functions of eject, but first, I need to make it working at all:P20:40
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Estel_now I noticed that while in peripheral mode, it gives me banner "peripheral mode", but in hostmode AND optical media attached, it just ended with nothing (while executing commands by hand worked)20:41
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* Sicelo wanted 'eject' to eject the fake cd-rom in a zeroconf usb modem20:41
DocScrutinizert900:~# [ $e ] && echo 120:42
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DocScrutinizert900:~# e=020:42
DocScrutinizert900:~# [ $e ] && echo 120:42
DocScrutinizerI.E >[ $e ]< is wrong20:42
Estel_I see...20:42
DocScrutinizeruse >[ "1" == $e ]20:43
Estel_[ $e ] && exit20:44
Estel_[ "1" == $e ] && exit20:44
DocScrutinizert900:~# e=020:44
DocScrutinizert900:~# [ "1" == $e ] && echo true20:44
DocScrutinizert900:~# e=120:45
DocScrutinizert900:~# [ "1" == $e ] && echo true20:45
DocScrutinizerso yep20:45
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Estel_allright, testdriving...20:46
DocScrutinizerset -vx would have shown you immediately20:46
Estel_used itp and original version ended with20:48
Estel_[ $e ] && exit20:49
Estel_[ 1 ]20:49
Estel_modified one ends with20:49
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Estel_[ "1" == $e ] && exit20:50
Estel_[ 1 == 1 ]20:50
Estel_I mean output when executing with -vx20:50
Estel_whats the difference between 1 and 1== 1? :P my non-coder lack of skill is showing20:51
Estel_well, I'll test it later with usb optical drive - I know, it's dumb that I've asked aboout it without optical with me, but I though script will contain obvious errors (which seems to be the case)20:52
DocScrutinizerEstel_: obviously it sets e=1, so it's meant to exist on [ 1 == $e ]&&exot20:52
DocScrutinizerexit* :-P20:52
Estel_I trust You on that (tm) :P20:53
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DocScrutinizerEstel_: so just one of those lines executes e=120:54
DocScrutinizer*Peripheral*)banner "Peripheral mode";e=1;;20:54
DocScrutinizer*Host*)[ ! -e /dev/sr* ] && ( banner "Host mode detected but no optical drive attached";e=1);;20:54
Estel_...and causes exit. got it20:55
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Estel_btw, why script allowed him to define "e" as 0 or 1 inside first part, and later, as /usr/sbin/eject"?20:57
DocScrutinizerin any case function banner() should have printed a notification20:57
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DocScrutinizerunless it failed, e.g due to missing run-standalone.sh20:57
Estel_hm, without host mode it prints notification, but when I've tried it with real disk attached, it did nothing20:57
Estel_quite possible20:58
DocScrutinizerEstel_: (why did it allow) shell env are usually not strict types20:58
DocScrutinizerEstel_: this script needs to be run under user20:59
Estel_with sudo20:59
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DocScrutinizerstill I guess a > dbus-send --system --type=method_call \< won't hurt20:59
Estel_I see21:00
DocScrutinizerno sudo21:00
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DocScrutinizerrun it as user21:00
Estel_original package provided sudoers.d file21:00
Estel_and tried to run it as sudo21:00
DocScrutinizersure, for eject21:00
DocScrutinizerthat's idiotic21:00
Estel_user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/eject.sh21:01
DocScrutinizerthird and second last line use sudo - the script itself needs to run as user21:01
Estel_blame blue_led, I'm just stating how it looked21:01
Estel_in fact sudoers file is quite verbose21:01
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DocScrutinizerI also frown at >dbus-send --system< - afaik you should contact org.freedesktop.Notifications on session dbus21:03
DocScrutinizernot all sure about it though21:04
DocScrutinizeryou might wnat to check back at phone control wikipage21:04
* Estel_ is uploading something to zerobin, which take ages on current connection21:05
Sicelobtw, what do you want 'eject' for, when a 'umount' would do just as well, afaict?21:05
* DocScrutinizer is afk, for some RL21:05
DocScrutinizereject does more than umount21:06
Estel_Sicelo,  usb drives without button (relying on software eject function)21:06
Estel_the slim, lightweight type21:06
DocScrutinizerit also does "safely remove"21:06
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  np21:06
Estel_thanks a lot21:06
Estel_+ safely remove21:06
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Siceloah, i forgot you were talking about optical drives :D21:07
Estel_+ eject got in fact many other nice functions ;) also for other media types (ancient floppies :P)21:07
Estel_sudoers file21:08
Estel_unnecessary elevated privileges for eject.sh21:08
Estel_if only eject needs it and have granted?21:09
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Estel_Will test it, re-write as per Your instructions, then publish fixed version... Of course with proper credits to real author of fixed lines ;)21:15
Estel_I mean "real author of fix"21:15
Estel_for broken lines21:15
Estel_thanks a lot21:15
Estel_I wonder if blue_led never used his own script, or mysteriously it worked for him, lol21:15
Sicelolol.. i had even thanked that blue_led post with eject, but now i didn't even know it existed :P21:16
Estel_what is Your tmo nick?21:16
Estel_I wonder if kp contain modules for writing optical media21:17
Siceloqhubekela ;)21:17
Estel_ancient versions contained it, but later, all cdrom related stuff got mysteriously removed21:17
Estel_thanks, lol21:17
Siceloused to be my nick here as well, unti started to use my real name21:17
Estel_better choice, IMO21:17
Estel_would just love to write DVD with some data from N90021:18
Estel_just love it :P21:18
Estel_and later, blueray :P21:19
Sicelowriting was supported before? :O21:19
Estel_seriously, not only for sake of it21:19
DocScrutinizerKP50 should have all iso9660 et al kernel modules again21:19
DocScrutinizerif not, spank pali21:19
Estel_The problem - I've no idea how linux writing via command line goes21:20
Siceloyay! /me kisses his N900 :D21:20
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Estel_would need to search for informations how to even start :P21:20
Estel_good to share files when pendrives are not around21:20
Estel_many times You just throw things on dvd disc -as I'm using N900 as real computer with me, it would be great21:21
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Estel_now I'm only waiting for Rpi to arrive, and dream of connecting N900 via hdmi out to monitors and TVs will become true :D21:22
Estel_with decent resolution21:22
Estel_Sicelo,  do You remember how to test writing from command line? (optical)21:23
Siceloi'm worse than you, lol21:23
Estel_btw I wonder if writing tools (also GUI) from ed would have proper access to modules... They should, yep Doc?21:23
Estel_seriously, Sicelo?I haven't noticed and though otherwise21:24
Estel_(no irony)21:24
Sicelohmm, not so sure i understand you there. otherwise, what i meant is that i'm noob, in the real sense of the word21:25
Estel_...and I've written that I though I'm more noob that You ;)21:25
DocScrutinizerEstel_: hm? writing tools from ed?21:25
Estel_tools for writing things on optical disc21:25
Estel_in Easy Debian21:25
Estel_or to backup&write them like EAC or laserdisk21:25
DocScrutinizerI'm not sure about ED21:26
Estel_well, generally cups works with USB printers21:26
Estel_easy debian cups21:26
DocScrutinizerbut generally you need root access for all those tools - unless your physical device in /dev/* got user with full privileges21:26
Estel_so why optical media should be different?21:26
DocScrutinizersimple as that: ls -l /dev/sr*21:27
Estel_in easy debian, of course?21:27
DocScrutinizereven stat /dev/sr*21:27
Estel_if it sees it it can use it21:28
DocScrutinizerfrom wherever you want to use those writing-tools21:28
Estel_ssh :P21:28
Estel_I just wonders why things that suffer from low memory (thus swapping) when run as easy debian chrot doesn't suffer so much when run as native ubuntu on N90021:29
Estel_as long as You get rid of unity21:29
Estel_i.e. browsers21:29
Estel_reportedly, chromium and iceweasel works with speed of microB on (thumb2 :P) ubuntu @ N90021:30
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Estel_(joke with thumb2, I'm sure it's not the reason)21:30
Estel_ubuntu isn't less memory hungry than maemo21:31
Estel_I would say the opposite21:31
Estel_so wtf?21:31
SiceloEstel_: if someone cold convince DocScrutinizer and everyone else that worked on h-e-n to also bring it on to Ubuntu/Debian, whatever ..21:31
Estel_chroot debian is quite native21:31
Estel_erm, Sicelo, I may be wrong, but what's the problem with running hostmode on ubuntu/debian?21:32
Estel_modules and scripts for hostmode are same21:32
Estel_h-e-n itself is just gui running scripts21:32
DocScrutinizerSicelo: h-e-n basically is hostmode patches in PK21:32
Estel_same scripts should work under, lets say, ubuntu 12.0421:32
DocScrutinizerthe gui is a nobrainer21:32
Estel_using KP in ubuntu OR Nemo kernel with hostmode patches added...21:33
Estel_and Y21:33
Estel_+ scripts and You have hostmode21:33
DocScrutinizerthought you've hit return instead backspace as you tried to delete the Y21:34
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Estel_true, almost21:34
Sicelodoes Nemo's kernel include those patches yet?21:34
Estel_no idea.21:34
DocScrutinizerI'd be really surprised21:35
Estel_but no big deal to include them for someone who can compile kernel already21:35
DocScrutinizerhostmode hacks are really really nasty botch, not upstream-able21:35
Estel_btw DocScrutinizer, what's the status of hostmode on N950?21:35
Estel_vanilla have it?21:35
Estel_or they screwed it again?21:35
Siceloas using KP for ubuntu sounds like a not so good idea .. at least for debian i had serious issues with udev .. nearly every /dev node had to be mknod'ed by hand21:35
DocScrutinizerlimbo state, as I rarely ever touch HARM21:36
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  no surprise here21:36
DocScrutinizerjavispedro and me had a private session trying to test a "stock" openmode kernel with just some USB OTG related stuff enabled in devconfig, some weeks ago. We had to stop the session for both getting tired, and we haven't resumed yet21:37
DocScrutinizeras for academic considerations it should work OOTB on N921:38
DocScrutinizernfc about N95021:38
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  You got N950 via last year program, or N9?21:38
DocScrutinizerI got both21:38
SiceloOOTB on N9?21:39
Estel_at least something to make up for lack of microSD slot, eh?21:39
* Sicelo must start learning to compile kernels, and try something out for N900. 21:40
DocScrutinizerjust should need proper defconfig for kernel, as N9 by far isn't as fsckdup hw as N900 regarding USB21:40
Estel_but I would still kill a idiot who haven't connected fmtx module to antenna21:40
Estel_hehe, it's fsckd hw n every other aspect :P21:40
DocScrutinizerEstel_: well, that's a kinda justified notion :-D21:40
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DocScrutinizer(about antenna that is)21:41
Estel_I wonder if it's possible to easily hw mod it to connect21:41
Estel_some pads or whatsnot21:41
DocScrutinizerat very least they could've spent a testpoint for the pin21:41
Estel_something that doesn't include rebailing or drilling multilayer pcb :P21:41
Estel_they haven't made testpoint?...21:42
DocScrutinizerI honestly doubt there is any (though that'S mere guessing)21:42
Estel_just nothing, bga without connection to pcb?21:42
Estel_I see21:42
* ShadowJK located the phantom resistance to a previous kludge, and determined it nonissue21:42
Estel_well, there is a chance that I'll be able to test myself21:42
ShadowJKgot sufficiently pissed off and gave up for tonight :P21:42
DocScrutinizerEstel_: when you're a council member you're free to send my whatever hw (N9/50) for me to disassemble and take hires scans, and analyze if I can find a testpoint21:44
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DocScrutinizerI'm reluctant to do this on N950 and actually even on N921:45
Estel_I got strange feeling that one day, someone, just for the sake of it, will buy one of rarely available SoC like in N900 with 1GB RAM and spent 200 dollars - or just time, if she/he own infrared soldering station - and upgrade N900's RAM21:45
DocScrutinizerI'm reluctant to do this on N950 and actually even on N9 that I got here21:45
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  :P21:45
DocScrutinizerEstel_: I wouldn't need a working device for that21:45
Estel_there are chances that I'll be able to do it myself for N95021:45
Estel_hey, MohammadAG got broken N950, doesn't he?21:46
RST38hMEANWHILE: Inflatable Meat Balloons Are the Perfect Decorations For Your Next BBQ21:46
RST38hWAIT. Isn't it what humans are anyway???21:46
DocScrutinizerOTOH IIRC I got the N9 for exactly that purpose to disassemble it...? <me starts thinking>21:46
Estel_so, problem solved21:47
Estel_going back to previous plan :P21:47
Estel_You said You don't touch harmattan anyway, or rarely21:47
Estel_risk management say risk is low ;)21:47
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DocScrutinizerindeed, and it's not like N9 wasn't replaceable21:48
Estel_btw what ribbon in N900 You'he almost torn? this one that connect screen to motherboard?21:48
Estel_for me this thing is hard to connect again during assembly21:48
Estel_OTOH, on one device, I've torn it to half width21:48
DocScrutinizerthe ribbon itself is sturdy, it's the connector at end which is crap21:49
Estel_and screen still worked great21:49
Estel_I got different experiences21:49
Estel_no problem with connector, yet damaged ribbon21:49
Estel_yet I agree that it's sturdy21:49
DocScrutinizerthis conector actually is 3 layers: real connector, then flex cable, then yet another small PCB to create 'jumpers'21:50
DocScrutinizerall soldered together21:50
DocScrutinizerbend it and solder joints snap open21:50
Estel_it's just misleading, it looks like being made from many small "wires"21:50
Estel_btw this main ribbon contain much less places of real tracks that I've thought21:51
Estel_it looks like "tear 1mm and You're screwed"21:51
Estel_while left half is actually just ribbon, no cooper21:52
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Estel_BTW I observed strange thing. few days ago damaged N900 with secondary board (microSD slot and camera slide sensor) was torn away21:53
Estel_was sold for almost same price as 100% working N90021:53
Estel_I wonder if idiots bought it, or they really think it's easily repairable?21:53
Estel_this damn non-connectable ribbon to secondary board goes inside multilayer IIRC21:53
DocScrutinizeridiots may think it's repairable ;-P21:53
DocScrutinizerno friggin way to fix it once it's broken21:54
Estel_... and if it break, it does *only* on place where it goes from PCB21:55
Estel_yet I must admit it's sturdy too21:55
Estel_I'm now hunting for good source of cheap N900's cameras - would like to open it and remove IR filter21:56
Estel_yet I'm afraid to try it with my module without having replacement21:56
DocScrutinizerEstel_: there are new spare camera modules for N90021:57
Estel_not genuine ones I guess? expensive?21:57
Estel_oh, I almost forget to ask - N950 really have 12MP camera software'ish limited to 8MP? any way/project to remove limitation?21:58
Estel_holy shit, 43 euro22:00
DocScrutinizeryou know you'll need camera module extractor tool as well. Or some nifty DIY tooling22:00
Estel_or gilette torn into two and screwdriver :P22:01
Estel_although I agree that extractor make it easy22:01
Estel_BTW funny fact22:02
Estel_I lost my stylus one day - unfortunately22:02
Estel_and styluses for N900 in my country were priced like 7 USD22:02
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Estel_then, I've bought one from china for 1 USD with shipping22:02
Estel_it travelled half of the world, still being 7x less expensive22:03
Estel_+ styluses offered here were also from china, surely22:03
Estel_although I must admit that original stylus is much harder, china replacements are quite elastic22:03
Estel_lately my son bite off stylus tip, so I tried tto buy them for 1$ again22:04
Estel_but wefre sold only in batches of 50 min :(22:04
Estel_someone noticed that sending 1 stylus for 1 usd half a world away isn't good idea22:04
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Estel_I needed to pretend being product manager of one famous polish gsm-selling company, and that I'm interested in buying 5k or 10k styluses...22:05
Estel_to get 4 piece sample for 4 usd shipped22:05
Estel_ok, I' off for now22:07
Estel_see ya!22:07
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StyXmandamn, one of my chinese batts just fell apart22:27
DocScrutinizerthere been a netspilt, or my server had problems?22:27
StyXmanDocScrutinizer: 21:23 -!- DocScrutinizer51 [~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]22:27
DocScrutinizersCary even22:28
ShadowJKStyXman; generic one or a brand name chinese batt?22:28
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StyXmanthe only thing that looks like a brand name is actually a certification icon22:37
StyXmanso I guess generic is the answer22:37
StyXmanmore like «cheap and nasty»22:37
keriocheap and nasty is good22:39
kerioalthough exploding lithium batteries have a destructive potential that you shouldn't underestimate22:39
* ShadowJK is currently using a japod from dx22:41
ShadowJKelectrically it's superb22:41
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Estel_hey DocScrutinizer, of course with Your suggestions work fine23:51
Estel_Thanks a lot, again. I've modofied it as per Your suggestions, + added something from myself (tuned it to not fail mounting filesystem of less-than-ideal cd's and in case of failure, drop messages @ user face, instead of collapsing, etc)23:53
Estel_of course fixed permissions and deleten unnecessary elevated ones too.23:53
Estel_I'm going to publish it with changes - could You or anyone else knowledgeable take a look if no more code cleanup suggestions should be made?23:53
Estel_it even have "GUI fronentd" - I mean single tray icon as per blue_led, that now opens tray, close it (like real button) and upon closing,automatically mount cd's/DVD's filesystem (before fix, it collapsed, due to lack of waiting time between closing tray and trying to mount filesystem)23:55
Estel_It's also priceless for ultra-light trayless optical drives23:55
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Estel_if anyone sees something that should be made more clean in code, drop me a note. If not, I'll post it soon.23:56
Sicelom=$(cat /proc/driver/musb_hdrc | grep Mode=) .. i do feel a  grep Mode= /proc/..... would be 'neat'23:57
Sicelomy two cents23:57
Estel_shit, forget that, You already said about this23:57
Estel_will it work without elevated permissions?23:58
Estel_cat /proc/... works, but trying more irect things on it require root23:58
Estel_well, gotta check that :P23:58
Sicelothat line? it's practically the same as the one you have23:58

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