IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-09-22

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lardmanDid I miss the council election?00:18
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lardmanI have a feeling I might have - apologies, has been busy at work00:19
RST38habill_uk has been elected, crowned, deposed, and beheaded00:19
lardmanand drawn and quartered? ;)00:19
RST38hFrankly, beheading is quite sufficient,no need to get cruel and unusual here00:20
lardmandepends how many chops it takes I guess00:20
RST38hThere is some possibility that he will continue posting even with his head off, but I am ready to take a chance00:20
lardmanreminds me of a Zoids comic00:20
lardman fwiw00:22
lardmangreat comics :)00:22
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chem|stRST38h: where?00:22
chem|stlink pls00:22
chem|stwas yesterday or the day before yester this -> || close to ban him again00:23
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RST38hchem|st: Be aware that he is posting headless! Like a headless chicken, you know00:33
* chem|st is aware00:33
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Macersure hope my buddy can fix my n90002:13
Maceri want it back badly02:13
belsatsarwhat is brokend02:13
Macerthe usb port fell off02:13
belsatsari am waiting for a qwerty model  on the ebay02:14
Macern900 has a qwerty02:14
Maceryou mean an n950?02:14
Macergood luck with that02:14
Macerpeople are selling an N9 for $800+ on ebay?02:15
belsatsarMacer: no, qwertz models are sold in germany02:15
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Macertalk about stoned02:16
belsatsarwithout 4 arrow keys02:16
belsatsari was chatting elsewhere for a moment, i am sorry02:16
Macerthey're crazy :)02:16
belsatsarwhat for02:16
Macera nokia N902:16
belsatsarhello replacement n90002:17
belsatsarhave overclocked n900s been breaking yet?02:17
Maceri will just stick with my n90002:17
Macerdon't know ... never really oc'd mine02:17
Maceri'm sure some people here have them maxed out02:17
Maceri have to wait for my usb port to get repaired02:18
belsatsarit is too bad02:18
Maceri've been using my G2 for months and wow what a piece of garbage that phone is02:18
belsatsarnokia didn't really have to make a new OS02:18
belsatsarmaemo5 on omap4 would have been fine02:18
Macerthey didn't.. they bailed on it and started to use MS02:18
belsatsarwith a 4.5" screen and a 2000mAh battery02:19
Maceryeah.. i still run maemo on my n90002:19
Maceralthough i've heard the meego-arm team has gotten mostly everything to work on the n90002:19
Maceri haven't tried it in months tho .. i am sure it needs a lot of work still.. but maemo worked great02:19
belsatsari would like the motorola droid 3 (dual core omap4) with maemo02:19
belsatsaror meego even02:19
Macerwon't happen :(02:20
Macerespecially now that google owns motorola mobility02:20
belsatsari do not understand, they won't open the hardware to 3rd party OSes?02:20
Corsac4.5" is really too large :/02:20
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Macerbelsatsar: i doubt it02:21
Macernokia owns the n900 and it seems like the meego team had to pull teeth to get that to work02:21
Maceri could only imagine trying to get it to run on something that isn't based on the OS... i really doubt they would open it up like that02:21
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Corsachmhm, can't one edit receiving mail server in modest account config?02:22
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Maceri have to admit tho... i really do like a lot of the android stuff02:23
Macermy asus transformer is great :)02:23
Macerprobably the best netbook i've ever had02:23
belsatsarhow is the life of battery time Macer02:26
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Macerlong with the keyboard attached02:38
Maceri want to say with the keyboard attached it can easily last over 12 hours02:38
belsatsarthat sounds wonderful02:39
belsatsarmy thinkpad maxed at 802:39
belsatsarnow more like 2.502:39
belsatsari'd like to wait for some screens that can switch to sunlight-readble black/white02:39
Corsactransformer is a bit like the touchbook made right, isn't it?02:40
jargon-i can't open pics i took,filemanager shows empty folder. copied media files,neiter.
MacerCorsac: that is exactly what i thought when i got it ;)02:41
Macerit is a touchbook that doesn't totally suck02:41
Corsacwell, it's a touchbook made02:41
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Macerdetatchable keyboard that doesn't tip over .. an OS that actually works... etc :)02:41
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belsatsarMacer: is the umts version very expensive?  i see like 600 euro02:54
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belsatsari'd like an omap4 n81002:55
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luke-jrwill Recorder get both channels?03:21
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: ?? recorder, both channels?09:13
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: which both channels?09:13
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: in a call09:14
DocScrutinizeraaaah, of course, yes09:14
doc|homeapplying for a webdeveloper job with nokia's mobile division, bad move?09:14
doc|homeI don't even know why they need a web developer. Didn't they kill ovi?09:14
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: at least last time I checked I think it did09:16
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DocScrutinizerruskie: simple answer: don't buy it09:24
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: don't buy computers?09:24
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DocScrutinizersimple answer for N9+aegis: don't buy it09:24
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: don't "convert" anyone to Linux ever again?09:25
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: I "convert to linux" my clients prior to them buying their hardware, and I tell them what hardware to buy09:26
ruskieDocScrutinizer, did you actually read the article?09:26
DocScrutinizerno, I gather it's a friggin PC with Fritzchip and locked bootloader09:27
DocScrutinizeraka Bios09:27
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, no09:28
DocScrutinizerI've not heard of any technology to retroactively kill PCs that allow boting via Grub09:28
ruskieDocScrutinizer, it's M$ trying to push trusted computing inte UEFI as mandatory09:28
ruskiewith them holding the keys09:29
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DocScrutinizerso why "No"? That's exactly what I said09:29
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DocScrutinizerand btw that's exactly what Nokia did with Aegis09:30
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DocScrutinizerand M$ is trying to push TC since errr >10 years now?09:33
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DocScrutinizerand the answer of any reasonable hw office in any large company been exactly like mine: Don't buy it, we want to be in control of our hw, not to delegate control to friggin $random-manufacturer09:35
DocScrutinizeron a related topic:09:35
infobotmethinks aegis is , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: so you see no interest in bringing average Joe Desktop User to Linux?09:40
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: sorry, your question makes no sense to me09:40
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: you know, the guy who bought his PC at BestBuy and didn't know Linux existed until he met you09:41
luke-jrwho wants to give it a try, but OOPS-- it's impossible because his PC will never run anything but Windows09:41
DocScrutinizertoo bad for him I have to tell him he bought junk09:41
luke-jrand he'll go on using Windows09:41
luke-jralong with the rest of the world who will never change because they will never have a choice09:42
luke-jrnot everyone can build computers09:42
DocScrutinizercould be worse, he could have bought an N9 and be interested in true linux, and I had a real hard afternood to explain to him why HARM with aegis isn't true linux09:42
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luke-jrand no PC manuf is going to give up Windows OEM just so people can use Linux, so long as Windows has the marketshare it does09:43
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: the handheld market has never been truly free09:43
luke-jrthe desktop market has09:43
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DocScrutinizerwell, I think I said everything that's relevant to explain my take on that. Why don't we have TC in all computers since 10 years?09:44
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: at least TC could be disabled09:49
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luke-jras to why-- because people made a fuss09:50
luke-jrif people don't make a fuss because "oh, it'll never happen", it WILL happen09:50
DocScrutinizerBS, what's the difference between TC and the shit ruskie explained this new M$ initiative plans to do?09:50
ruskieDocScrutinizer, M$ and vendors control the keys and say what is allowed and isn't allowed... there is no disabling... they say what is and isn't allowed to run09:51
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DocScrutinizerit's just initiative #736 of M$ et al to force TC into the market09:51
DocScrutinizerruskie: so why you're teaching *me* about that?09:52
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DocScrutinizeryour IBM or Intl laptop is exactly such a machine, afaik they all have TPM aka fritzchip since years, just nobody want to use it, and if they dare to ship it with a BIOS that forces TPM into efect and can't get replaced by another BIOS that allows to run the system with fritzchip killed, no major company will allow to use that hardware for their business09:54
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DocScrutinizerso maybe major hw / mainboard manufs will support it in their BIOS in future, but if they don't want to lose the business sector they want to make clear there's a way to install a BIOS that allows to switch off the TC crap09:56
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DocScrutinizerand M$ maybe will ship a windows that needs mandatory TC but they won't be able to sell that "home version" to business sector, so they won't stop producing windows versions that run without fritzchip, and you see what that implies for the mainboard manufs in turn09:58
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DocScrutinizerhell, there are even FOSS BIOS implementations around, don't you know?10:01
ruskiethis is all assuming flashing tools won't be blacklisted10:03
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DocScrutinizerno it is assuming industry will refuse to buy hw that comes with flashing tools "blacklisted"10:04
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DocScrutinizertry to blacklist my JTAG or EPROM flasher10:05
DocScrutinizerthough that's bad enough for big business to reject the hw, if there's no way to reflash *arbitrary* BIOS without special hardware flashers10:07
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nid0fwiw, tpm modules are frequently used for proper beneficial reasons, just not that often in desktops.10:09
DocScrutinizerI really don't know why you worry about PCs and laptops where big business will care about TC never achieving world dominion, while you don't say a work about meego HARM and aegis, where Nokia already shipped a device that has all the shit in place and working just fine10:09
DocScrutinizers/a work/a word/10:10
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: I really don't know why you worry about PCs and laptops where big business will care about TC never achieving world dominion, while you don't say a word about meego HARM and aegis, where Nokia already shipped a device that has all the shit in place and wo...10:10
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DocScrutinizerjust because meego allegedly is linux and not winP7? duh!10:11
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, no because mobile devices have always been f... up10:13
DocScrutinizerrumour has it the HARM-beta2 firmware now actually allows you to flash your alternative "true linux", but that's yet to get confirmed. Beta1 didn't, it was a locked down hardware+firmware system exactly like the ones you moan about some posts up, for "real PCs"10:13
DocScrutinizerruskie: that's BS10:13
DocScrutinizerN900 is as open as it gets, with respect to that10:14
ruskiethere are exceptions10:14
DocScrutinizerI detect selective blindness and won't continue this convo until you do sth about it10:15
ruskiewell you seem to have the same issue... "don't buy" aka ignore that those things exist10:16
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ruskieand frankly until the n9 is out I won't really be able to comment on it since other than the stuff that's been reported about n950 can't really say anything10:17
* DocScrutinizer throws a can with paint and a brush at ruskie, so he can paint some banners for his 1-man-demo in front of M$-headquarters10:17
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ruskieI don't like anyone doing this10:17
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ruskienot just m$10:18
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DocScrutinizerso you're accusing *ME* to *ignore* TC madness? WTF?!10:18
DocScrutinizer~factinfo aegis10:18
infobotaegis -- created by DocScrutinizer <~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Jul  4 01:10:47 2011 (80 days); last modified at Sun Aug  7 12:42:40 2011 by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 39 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 42m 59s ago.10:18
DocScrutinizerruskie: please get another cup of coffe, then come back with this topic in a few hours when your mind finally awakened10:19
ruskieso why aren't you doing something with your JTAG and EPROM flasher to get rid of aegis?10:20
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ruskieand no I don't drink coffee but true.. it is a bit early for my brain10:20
DocScrutinizerbecuase there's no FOSS xloader with proper signature matching that of Nokia, fool!10:21
DocScrutinizerand I'm the one bitching most about aegis being BS10:21
ruskieDocScrutinizer, probably because you're the ony trying to work around it the most10:22
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DocScrutinizerso please stop annoying and blaming me, while you do exactly NUTTIN10:22
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DocScrutinizerexcept moaning about TC in PCs while you ignore TC in our beloved phones10:23
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DocScrutinizerruskie: there are chanlogs of #harmattan, and there's a whole forum about meego(-harmattan), esp with that thread: - you're free to inform yourself and contribute there before it's too late10:41
threshduh. sorry.10:41
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, interesting thread11:48
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ErwinJungeWow. Aegis won't even allow you to read the kernel logs? Talk about impossible development...11:58
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DocScrutinizerErwinJunge: that's ot the point though. Aegis will forbid you doing whatever *NOKIA* feels you shouldn't do (or simply can't think of why you'd ever want to do that), so you're completely under the random whim of those who control aegis config, and there's no way to regain full control of your system. THAT is the crux of all TC (and aegis is a true TC implementation), not the question if this TC is configured in a way it allows you to do X12:02
DocScrutinizeror forbids Y.12:02
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DocScrutinizerafter all Nokia can change the policies any day, 3 times a day if they like to12:03
ErwinJungeScary stuff, this move to TC from all sides.12:04
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ErwinJungeI can build my own pc, but on the laptop and mobile front it's starting to look very 1984ish...12:04
amiconn"Trusted computing" is an euphemisms for this kind of stuff imo12:06
amiconnShould be called "crippled" or "locked down"12:07
belsatsardid you see the youtube amiconn12:07
meceTrustless Computing12:07
belsatsaryou should it is excellent12:08
DocScrutinizerthe "trust is mutual"?12:09
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* Sicelo has just been able to connect his cdma modem through h-e-n. time for ppp scripts 12:11
DocScrutinizeryeah, that one. Posted that a lot, it's exactly to the point though not very deep12:11
DocScrutinizerSicelo: :-D Alas we probably won't be able to bring h-e-n to N9, thanks Aegis12:12
Siceloi ended up making my own Y-cable.12:12
Siceloyeah, bad12:12
belsatsarDocScrutinizer: it is one of the best propaganda videos ever in the modern age12:13
belsatsar(helps that it is true)12:13
Siceloone of the reasons why i bought my N900 2 weeks after N9 release12:13
mecebelsatsar, great video!12:13
nid0the video makes a key point at 1:30 though, TC itself isnt a dirty word, just totalitarian implementations of it12:13
ErwinJunge --> How likely is it that this would work with h-e-n and a y-cable?12:13
belsatsarand it's so german too... belief/believe12:13
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belsatsarErwinJunge: just processing the video would take a large chunk of a handheld's cpu12:14
belsatsarmini-hdmi is the answer for external displays12:15
ErwinJungebelsatsar: Hm... but could it work? I've had this idea of running an entire desktop of the phone for a while, this is the missing piece :) kb/mouse is easy. I'm not talking about complicated stuff, just a plain 2d desktop, browser and a programming editor.12:18
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belsatsarErwinJunge: way too heavy12:20
belsatsarwell, maybe borderline12:20
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belsatsarhave you used vnc?12:20
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ErwinJungeIn the past, yes. Not on the phone though.12:20
belsatsarit will give you an idea of the performance you can expect12:21
belsatsarvnc over usb12:21
ErwinJungeI'd expect vnc to be quite a bit more intensive than just sending images to a monitor. I'd also needs to handle encryption.12:22
ErwinJungeAt least, I hope vnc does encryption, haven't used it in ages.12:23
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nid0vnc traffic isnt generally encrypted by default12:26
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edheldilErwinJunge:  you can tunel vnc through ssh12:26
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ErwinJungeedheldil: That seems a bit pointless. If you're already tunneling stuff through ssh, why do you need vnc? Just tunnel the app itself.12:27
belsatsar   This is very good!12:27
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belsatsarby the same author as the anti tpm video mece12:27
nid0ErwinJunge: how are you going to get a windows desktop over ssh?12:27
nid0for example.12:27
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belsatsarnid0: we know12:28
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ErwinJungenid0: Never have that issue, luckily ;) Anyways, to wrap up this discussion: I'll probably end up getting on of these screens for my laptop anyways, so I'll try it with the phone then :)12:29
edheldilErwinJunge:  also we use it for consoles of virtual hosts12:29
belsatsarErwinJunge: i run an archos 70 tablet as my side monitor12:29
belsatsari use 'synergy' to controll it with my laptop keyboard/mouse12:29
mecebelsatsar, thanks12:29
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ErwinJungebelsatsar: Yeah, synergy is awesome. I've regularly used a second laptop as second screen. The usb screen seems like a more elegant solution though.12:30
belsatsarif i sucked less i'd have meego running on the archos by now12:32
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, also I don't see bigbusiness having a problem with this... infact I would think it's a benefit for them... no way for anyone to boot anything other than a company approved thing(which is sadly in most cases the whatever version of windows)... and I'm sure m$ will let them lock ...13:03
ruskie... the group policy down as well... frankly I see it as their wet dream13:03
ruskieDocScrutinizer, but yeah I agree that all TP is bad be it from nokia or m$ or intel or anyone else that wants to push it13:04
nid0except for when its not13:09
ruskienid0, no case for when it's not13:09
ruskiethere is no non-broken way to implement it13:09
nid0sure there are, you not knowing what useful implementations TC has doesnt mean they dont exist13:10
ruskieso enlighten me13:10
nid0self-encrypting drives and many full-disk encryption methods for example rely on and work properly thanks to TC13:10
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ruskienid0, frankly I don't trust those technologies to encrypt non-critical information13:12
DocScrutinizerruskie: you're plain wrong on that. Big Business isn't interested in becoming slave of M$13:13
nid0i'd like to see what possible argument can be given to suggest that the ability to securely encrypt an entire drive in hardware with no performance loss can possibly be a bad thing, when its use is entirely down to the system's admin.13:14
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ruskienid0, who has the keys to decrypt it... you? the manufacturer? third party?13:15
nid0theyre stored within the tpm, which is the entire point13:15
nid0drive taken out of computer, drive no worky any more13:15
ruskieDocScrutinizer, then why do they keep buying windows systems?13:15
ruskienid0, ahh you just made another good bad point13:16
nid0and most implementations allow you to retain your own recovery key separate to the main key stored in the tpm if you wish13:16
nid0big evil bitlocker from big evil MS being a good example13:16
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ruskieas for "big evil" I've long given up on that13:18
DocScrutinizernid0: use of TC *never* is "entirely to the sysadmin" - the whole point of TC is about you don't have access to the root cert. Otherwise it wouldn't be the concept of TC and could be achieved by other means since decades13:23
DocScrutinizerTC *means* there is a well "hidden" public key called root cert in your machine, and you don't posess the private key to sign kernels, bootloaders, apps, whatnot13:24
nid0i'd be interested to hear more detail on that. You the sysadmin can choose to encrypt the drive using TPM, encrypt it using a different method not using TPM, or not encrypt it. what of that is not down to the sysadmin?13:24
DocScrutinizerthe root cert is not down to the sysadmin. You can NOT move the cryped drive to any other machine and reinstall it there and recover your data13:25
SpeedEvilDepends on the implementation13:26
DocScrutinizeras you don't own the key13:26
nid0no, you cant do that with self-encrypting drives, because the whole entire point of self-encrypting drives is that they only work and only can work in the computer and connected to the tpm module through which you encrypted them.13:26
nid0that's the entire point of using it13:26
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: BS. If it were not like that, it was a simple cryptfs like we know since decades13:26
nid0whereas in the case of bitlocker for example, you can generate and own a recovery key even while using tpm encryption so that you CAN decrypt the drive elsewhere13:26
nid0just like most software-based tpm encryption methods13:27
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DocScrutinizernid0: if you decide to use such a scheme then prepare for getting fired whenever your machine breaks and you can't recover the perfectly sane but crypted data from drive13:28
nid0and yes, you can use cryptfs or other entirely software-based alternatives, if you dont want to use tpm and take a performance hit for doing so13:28
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nid0DocScrutinizer many businesses do, its the whole reason SED drives are sold.13:29
DocScrutinizernid0: you're so completely and entirely wrong, speed of encryption has absolutely NOTHING to do with TPM13:29
nid0and these same businesses are also sane enough to have redundant data copies.13:29
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DocScrutinizerTPM actually is a pretty slow coprocessor that can not handle any sane encryption datarate13:30
nid0DocScrutinizer indirectly it does and i'm entirely right thanks. using TPM self-encrypting drives carry out the encryption process onboard the disk's own processor and typically suffer from effectively zero performance loss13:31
DocScrutinizerso what? how's the SATA interface supposed to access the TPM that usually sits somewhere completely different on your system?13:32
DocScrutinizerhardware encryption on-drive is completely unrelated to TPM13:33
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DocScrutinizerthere's a piece of SOFTWARE to moderate between drive and TPM13:33
nid0how is it possibly unrelated13:33
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DocScrutinizersame software can work perfectly sane for encryption without any TPM existing on your machine at all, it's just the question of storing the key elsewhere then13:35
DocScrutinizerthe drive and its cryp processor won't care nor even notice the difference13:36
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nid0and we're back to square one of the fundamental first benefit of self-encrypting drives as I said up there.13:36
DocScrutinizerhonestly a *very* poor example of a valid usecase for TPM/TC13:36
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nid0no, its a very poor example in your eyes because your counter-argument is "well you *could* do it a different way", it doesnt change the fact that it's a useful use-case of tpm without the disadvantage of your alternative13:37
DocScrutinizerthere are USB dongles and even SIM cards similar to TPM, and they vcan do exactly all the things you can do with an on-board TPM, just you can unplug them and you own the root cert13:38
DocScrutinizernid0: my alternative has which disadvantage exactly now?13:38
nid0and when you want to ensure that drive X can only possibly work in server X, rather than servers Y and Z?13:39
DocScrutinizerthen your concerns are rather weird13:39
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nid0if the key is stored elsewhere, its retrievable or reusable. the day tpm modules can be broken to recover the keys then sure, the use of SED becomes nonexistant, but to my knowledge that hasnt happened.13:40
DocScrutinizeras anybody opening up the server and just stealing the drive is a very strange thief for sure13:40
nid0DocScrutinizer: preventing that potential data loss is basically the whole point of self-encrypting drives13:40
DocScrutinizerdata loss == your server TPM (or mainboard) breaks: data loss as drive can't get decrypted any more. As not even in your steel locker you got a copy of the key13:42
nid0no, but luckily you're also not an idiot and have redundant copies of the data.13:42
DocScrutinizerdata leakage == somebody steals server, or SAN, or just the drive13:42
nid0also encrypted.13:42
DocScrutinizerjust the drive won't work with TPM13:43
DocScrutinizerbut honestly who's going to unmount the physical drive to steal it, instead of stealing the whole server or SAN13:44
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nid0not many people, but the potential is still there so it's a base that needs to be covered if at all possible, and TPM self-encrypted drives make it very straightforward to cover. whipping a few drives out of a system is also rather easier than carting off a rack-sized SAN13:45
DocScrutinizerand still there are PCI cards with a crypto module like a TPM that are also mounted inside the server and can't get simply unplugged without opening the case. But those cards have no vendor root cert, unlike TPM13:45
DocScrutinizerhonestly your usecase is bizarre, to be polite13:46
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nid0well, its the reason self-encrypting drives exist, and I can assure you it's a use-case many businesses take into account, whether you can see the benefit or not13:48
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nid0the end result, however, still remains that whether you see the benefit of locking drive<>server the functionality exists through TPM, and TPM makes it very straightforward to both implement and manage, and the inherant use of TPM for the process adds no downside13:49
DocScrutinizersure, there are a zillion weird "solutions" out there for a zillion of made up "problems". I'll sell a /dev/null-cleaner that shredders all the data that heaps up in /dev/null. I bet there are many businesses out there that take it into account13:50
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DocScrutinizerand I already have shown you 2 alternative solutions to "lock drive to server" that don't need TPM and have *no* downsides you told me about yet13:51
DocScrutinizer1) use a mere sw-based TPM emulation, as drive can't talk to TPM anyway. 2) use a "TPM" on a PCI card that you own and control completely13:52
nid0so contact the disk manufactures and tell them to redesign the way their SED process works. until that happens, presenting nonexistant "do it another way" solutions are meaningless.13:53
nid0youll also need to contact SAN manufactures about including those PCI cards.13:53
DocScrutinizermeh, I give a shit about SAN as I won't run a linux on that SAN where I'd be concerned about any TPM built in13:54
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DocScrutinizerso you're free to use TPM on any platform you like, for whatever reason you think is appropriate, but please don't say mainboards need a TPM soldered to them and equipped with a manufacturer root cert as that'S the only way to have proper crypted drives13:55
DocScrutinizerit evidently isn't13:55
nid0I never said anything of the sort, its you and ruskie that decided that there's absolutely no possible concievable beneficial use to TPM, and I presented a really straightforward one, used very commonly. you running in circles around "cant see the use-case" doesnt change that fact one bit13:57
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RST38hGentlemen, gentlemen, let us just all shake hands and say "hardware copy protection sucks"13:58
DocScrutinizeryeah, you're right. You showed that there's a valid usecase of locking a drive to a TPM, and that is: lock the drive to the TPM. As for any other more general description of the usecase I offered alternatives13:59
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DocScrutinizerobviously you can not lock a drive to a TPM that's not there14:00
DocScrutinizerso you're right, and I still think that's no reason anybody would need to get a TPM14:01
RST38hmost drives come with their own copy protection features nowadays14:01
DocScrutinizerRST38h: that's what we talked about14:02
RST38hthese are just not being used for the lack of real world applications14:02
nid0RST38h: yeah thats SED, which uses TPM14:02
DocScrutinizernid0 claimed it was relying on a TPM14:02
DocScrutinizernid0 also said your (and my) denial of real usecases was just due to our blindness of seeing them14:03
DocScrutinizeras thieves usually dismantle servers to unscrew the drives to steal just the drive, rather than just grabbing the whole server and run14:04
DocScrutinizerand that same thieves were even not able to grab the whole server rather than just the drive, so the drive dongling to server mainboard was a valid theft protection measure14:05
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DocScrutinizerwhile dongling the same drive to a key fetched from a remote server wouldn't solve the problem, unlike local soldered-to-board TPM which allegedly does14:08
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DocScrutinizerespecially sane a setup for raid arrays, where the increased reliability by array is more than compensated by the single point of failure TPM which even doesn't have any recovery path whatsoever14:11
DocScrutinizer(recovery path of course depending on implementation, you of course can use TPM to store your own key that you got a copy of in your steel locker)14:13
edheldilany real benefits are just a vehicle to shovel TPM and DRM down your throat14:14
DocScrutinizerbut then the additional "benefit" of TPM is still debatable as you could store the key elsewhere, and probably that "elsewhere" was a better choice14:15
DocScrutinizers/real/made to believe/ and I'm with you14:15
DocScrutinizerTPM/TC is not about user security, it's not designed for that. It's about security from user, by concept14:17
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DocScrutinizeras "security from user" (aka DRM etc) is the only real benefit of TPM - everything else can get accomplished without TPM already, and has been14:18
crashanddieactually, as soon as you start thinking about encryption TPM is awesome _for_ user security14:19
crashanddiebut yes, the way it's used in 99% of cases by corporations, it's protection from user.14:19
DocScrutinizerall that TPM does is verify a challenge-response chat for a manufacturer or user key14:20
crashanddieyes, and?14:20
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DocScrutinizeryou don't need challenge-response obfuscation of the key, on a system that is vulnerable to malware14:21
DocScrutinizerwithout a full TC implementation the malware doesn't need the key, it just gets access to the secured data by system means14:22
DocScrutinizerwhat would challenge-response help when anybody is stealing the server with encrypted drive? Nuttin, as the drive gets unlocked anyway14:23
crashanddieDude, with FDE, you can take away the disk and try to mount it somewhere else, encrypted is encrypted.14:24
crashanddieIt won't magically disappear because the TPM isn't there anymore14:24
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threshhi guys14:24
DocScrutinizerand if you got some malware on the server that would possibly steal the key so you could run away with the key and drive (without the server) then it's similarly nonsensical as that key-stealing ,alware as well could access the data on crypted drive rather than stealing the key14:25
threshso I've installed kernel-power48 via fapman and now my phone doesnt boot with it nor with -4714:25
crashanddieThe TPM provides you with a challenge, and the user provides the response (either through synch OTP, asynch OTP, or even UP auth), if correct, the TPM provides that access to the HD which unlocks a session key, and grants access to the HD14:25
crashanddieNo key is ever leaving the TPM/HD.14:26
crashanddieIt doesn't even go to RAM or CPU registers14:26
DocScrutinizerI know14:26
DocScrutinizerI lost you14:26
DocScrutinizerstore the key in plain text on the server (e.g. in cmos-clock) and there's no difference regarding security, as either way a malware needs to run on the server to steal the key, and that same malware can steal the data as well14:27
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DocScrutinizerunless yur server has a full fledged TC implementation which would deny access of the malware to either of both ;-)14:28
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DocScrutinizerso where's the big benefit of TPM?14:29
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belsatsar  "We do the Pokey Pokey cause we're somehow all alowed... That's what it's all about."  [TSA spoof]14:31
DocScrutinizeractually storing the key to unlock the drive on a remote filesystem will *really* provide some theft protection for encrypted data on a drive14:31
belsatsarand then they sieze your isp records14:33
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mintuxI updated my phone to pr1.3 but I could not install previous applications :-( I need php also call recorder . I add all catalogs15:08
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mintuxno solutions ? or same problem ?15:18
belsatsarthe best contact person is the package maintainer mintux15:20
belsatsarwith open source you can contact the person directly15:20
belsatsarnot as with commercial software where we are conditioned to not call or interrupt them15:21
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RST38hAttention metal thieves: Buy BT, get 75 MILLION miles of copper15:41
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jhbHi *, I am reading around on how to get rid of the camera stutter when recording videos. No  obvious solution so far - did I miss something?15:54
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jhbok, note to self: changing the governor to userspace makes a difference16:18
SpeedEvilGoverner to userspace I think menas that it's off16:22
SpeedEviland at full speed all the time16:22
SpeedEvilThis will have an impact on battery life, but if you only turned it on while the camera was active...16:22
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jhbSpeedEvil: good point. thx16:27
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fluxhas someone written a program that warns me, if a process hogs significant amount of cpu during a certain time period?16:34
fluxin fact, there is one built in, the sound that comes when the battery is nearing zero charge, but I'd like to get a heads-up ;)16:35
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DocScrutinizerjhb: first instance I never ever experienced camera stutter on video recording17:19
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DocScrutinizerso I suspect it's one of your "optimizations" I assume you did - judging by yur suggested "solution" of changing governor - that actually causes the problem to begin with17:21
jhbDocScrutinizer: I think (not sure, of course) that I had it from the beginning17:21
jhbDocScrutinizer: but of course, I run quite a fiddled with setup17:21
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jhbDocScrutinizer: maybe one day I do a backup, flash, test, and roll back17:22
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DocScrutinizerI'd honestly suggest to do a decent full backup (suggesting backupmenu for that), then reflash to stock, NOT restore any customizations or apps, and test camera with that system under same conditions that usually reveal stutter17:23
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jhbI haven't tried cssu yet, so maybe I can add another test while I am at it :-)17:24
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DocScrutinizermaybe, but CSSU actually has an alternative camera GUI that may make for further complications17:25
DocScrutinizerI've actually not tested that one yet17:25
jhbcan one use the the old camera-ui in cssu?17:25
DocScrutinizerit's supposed to use same backend but you never know17:25
DocScrutinizeryes, you can use old camera-ui (I've been told) - just a matter if forced install of the stock app17:26
DocScrutinizerapt-get install camera-ui=<version> or sth like that17:27
DocScrutinizerask MohammadAG17:27
keriodoes fcam record videos?17:27
DocScrutinizernot afaik17:28
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DocScrutinizerbut then I never used fcam for any extended period of time17:28
jhbi haven't used fcam either. Mmm, need to find some time to play around with the cssu17:29
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markinfohas something changed in facebook login in Maemo?  I have nokia n900 and from a few days it is not able to connect to this account.19:12
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DocScrutinizerfarewell, lcuk :-(20:06
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smharsometimes, the virtual keyboard stops working, how can I restart it without rebooting?20:25
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DocScrutinizererr, sometimes sliding out and back in hwkbd helped here21:24
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DocScrutinizerother than that, I'm not sure. Maybe modprobe -r uinput; modprobe uinput ? Could be completely unrelated as well21:28
DocScrutinizeranyway ->description:    User level driver support for input subsystem21:29
DocScrutinizer(modinfo uinput)21:29
ShadowJKyes unrelated21:31
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ShadowJKvkbd wouldn't go through kernel other than that touchscreen goes via kernel21:31
DocScrutinizerso maybe killall hildon-desktop?21:32
DocScrutinizerprolly also useless21:32
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fizzieSliding in and out (that sounds so dirty) the hwkbd has helped for both (the rare-ish) "hwkbd stopped working" and "vkbd stopped working" issues here.21:35
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smharsliding hwkbd did not help me, rebooting -actually several times- help :-/21:44
DocScrutinizererr then there's something messed up a bit more than just slightly21:45
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DocScrutinizerohwell, that are the results of kernel coders not caring about reentrant code, proper mutex usage, and races21:46
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ShadowJKvkbd doesnt use kernel21:47
DocScrutinizerright, again21:47
ShadowJKother than that vkbd obviously reacts to touchscreen, and if touchscreen works then the kernel components work21:47
ShadowJKI'd however check if the slider position is detected correctly21:48
ShadowJKgets updated in output of 'dmesg'21:48
DocScrutinizeryou can have races and reentrance issues in x components as well, and I dunno how vkbd is plumbed to the system at all21:48
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ShadowJKhildon-input-method? :P21:49
DocScrutinizernot exactly kernel maybe, but rather low in the whole stack nevertheless21:50
DocScrutinizerafter all hwkbd and vkbd need to interact21:50
DocScrutinizerone way or another21:50
ShadowJKroughly it sits between X and apps that support input methods, filtering stuff21:51
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* DocScrutinizer hates the whole input stuff - too many layers21:51
ShadowJKIf you ran, say, plain x-terminal, then you'd notice that Symbols menu didn't work, and that you have to keep blue arrow pressed21:51
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* DocScrutinizer waves and heads off for dinner, nah wait a last glance at that thread...21:53
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Venemohey guys :)21:56
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, HIM is like voodoo.21:56
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DocScrutinizeranyway, clicked my thanks buttons on, now off for dinner22:04
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, I clicked too...22:13
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ShadowJKoh hey22:18
ShadowJKhalf a page down in the forum topic list I find that I wouldn't be able to read email on N9 :P22:19
ShadowJKbecause of aegis!22:19
VenemoShadowJK, wtf?22:20
ShadowJKmodprobe tun22:20
ShadowJKdoesn't work22:20
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ShadowJKso I can't access vpn22:20
ShadowJKso I can't get to the mailserver22:20
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ShadowJKN810 was the first portable device I had that could read my email :)22:22
ShadowJKI guess N900 might be the last :(22:22
ShadowJKalthough android devices aren't as locked down usually i guess?22:22
GAN900Well, it's all a little academic anyway.22:22
ShadowJKI haven't really been following it, but from the press media in .fi it looks like it'll be impossible to buy an N9 anyways22:23
petterii don't get the aegis problem. Isn't there a switch in the control panel to turn aegis off?22:23
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ShadowJKApparently not?22:25
ShadowJKNot one that works anyway?22:25
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* ShadowJK wonders if the GPS bug from Maemo5 that I fixed has been also fixed in Harmattan, or if I have to crack aegis and then fix it before my bluetooth gps works :P22:26
merlin1991ShadowJK: wich bug?22:27
keriowtf is aegis22:29
ShadowJKbug 1135422:29
povbotBug gypsy-daemon can not parse GPRMC message from external GPS receiver22:29
infoboti guess aegis is , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
ShadowJKkerio, aegis makes your phone into a featurephone+apps :P22:32
keriocool story, nokia22:34
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jacekowskiyou know what22:45
jacekowskithat N8 is quite decent phone22:45
jacekowskiand battery lasts for more than a day22:45
jacekowskiit has a lot of stuff that n900 lacks22:45
jacekowskibut lot of stuff isn't there as well22:46
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ShadowJKwell it kinda does nothing22:48
ShadowJKexcept calls and texts?22:48
jacekowskinokia maps22:49
jacekowskifm transmitter22:49
jacekowskiand everything seems to be faster22:49
jacekowskixenon flash22:49
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ShadowJKI wish someone would come up with a media player22:52
ShadowJKlike, one that does away with the traditional of only having 1 of these features present: ability to find your god damn songs, format support, format acceleration22:54
ShadowJKmaemo5 media player has the third :P22:54
ShadowJKthe "internet radio" thing is so unreliable I just copy URLs to x-terminal and play them with MPlayer..22:55
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ShadowJKCome to think of it, most of the things I use x-term and "classic" linux apps for is things that while present just don't work :/22:56
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jacekowskiShadowJK: thing is, n8 is a good hardware23:35
jacekowskiShadowJK: OS is limited23:35
jacekowskibut on n900 os was not limited23:35
jacekowskiand there wasn't so many good apps as well23:35
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jacekowskiand n8 only shows how bad linux/maemo power management was23:42
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ShadowJKAll the symbian phones I had only had more battery life because they were incapable of doing the things I do on maemo :P23:48
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ShadowJKMy Nokia E75 has about same battery life as my N900 when doing the same things23:49
ShadowJKBut I have to really force myself with the E75. The browser makes me want to think "FUCK IT" and give up, which obviously saves battery life :)23:49
ShadowJKMy spare N900 gets about same battery life as my E75 when they both sit on table doing nothing23:50
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ShadowJKof course, N8 has cpu from N810 or something  :-)23:57
ShadowJKoverclocked a bit23:57
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