IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2011-08-17

ShadowJK5V is more than 4.2, but at 500mA it would take 30-60 minutes before battery voltage reached 4.2V00:00
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: you could just plug in then press some key every second and eventually look at screen to find uBoot menu with rubbish chars you need to delete prior to typing the noloboot00:00
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angelox|laptopok00:00
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DocScrutinizermake sure you see screen even if backlight might be off!00:01
DocScrutinizerI.E. get good illumination00:01
angelox|laptopwow,only now i did see Nokia's Charger is 1200mA!00:01
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: Yep00:01
ShadowJKN900 does not use all of 1200mA from charger00:01
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: yes, it is00:02
DocScrutinizerand no it doesn't use all 120000:02
angelox|laptopi see now why it charges so fastly00:02
DocScrutinizer3.5h+ is fast?00:02
DocScrutinizerhmm00:02
angelox|laptopfor me,came from chargers that toke 5+ yes00:03
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DocScrutinizerok then :-D00:03
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angelox|laptop:)00:03
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, more like 2 hours with a fresh battery. Phantom resistance and internal resistance of old batteries makes it more like 4h, yeah :P00:03
DocScrutinizeractually it's not charging with more than 800mA *at 3.8V* any time00:04
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DocScrutinizerwhich was more like 700mA used for charging from 5V00:05
DocScrutinizerplus some system powering overhead00:05
angelox|laptopone last question :-D00:05
DocScrutinizerask just ask00:05
angelox|laptopif i let uboot time out,it also 'boots' maemo and charges that 5~10 secs00:05
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angelox|laptopso,why need i do "run noloboot"?00:06
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ShadowJKI wonder if there is some other problem too. What happens after 5-10 secs?00:06
angelox|laptopit reboots00:06
ShadowJK:(00:06
angelox|laptopyes :(00:06
angelox|laptopbut at least,on these 5-10 secs it charges a bit :)00:07
DocScrutinizerI don't think it boots maemo?00:07
angelox|laptopyes,ops sorry,it boots maemo's kernel00:07
DocScrutinizerisn't it more like it tries to boot meego?00:07
ShadowJKIt might fall back to noloboot if no MicroSD is inserted, I guess00:07
DocScrutinizeryes00:07
angelox|laptopno,because i'm without any uSD00:07
DocScrutinizerhmm00:07
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: now if you had installed backupmenu, you'd get a reliable simple charging with just sliding open kbd before maemo boots up :-D00:09
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angelox|laptop:(00:09
angelox|laptopno one told me to install it00:09
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rlyDocScrutinizer: ok, FM also works.00:10
DocScrutinizerrly: we all know it usually works, yes00:10
ShadowJKtransmitter or receiver? :)00:10
rlyExcept, it seems that I cannot play without a headphone plugged in.00:10
rlyAlso, the earplugs don't exactly fit.00:10
DocScrutinizerrly: it needs hp for antenna00:10
rlyI suppose everyone buys custom ones?00:10
DocScrutinizeryup00:11
rlyDocScrutinizer: ok, so it is not just my head ;)00:11
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rlyDocScrutinizer: is that also the reason that the shape it not a computer compatible headphone?00:11
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: If maemo reboots after 10s that's actually too bad00:11
rlyDocScrutinizer: (to get actual reception from the headphone connection)00:12
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DocScrutinizerrly: no00:12
rlyDocScrutinizer: ok, then what is the reason?00:12
DocScrutinizerrly: any hp cable will do00:12
DocScrutinizerdunno00:12
DocScrutinizerwhat's the shape thing anyway00:13
rlyCool, it fits :)00:13
DocScrutinizer?00:13
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DocScrutinizerN900 AV is compatible to generic stereo "walkman" headphone "standard"00:13
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: Why?00:14
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DocScrutinizerbecause that means there's no proper way to recover from that situation00:14
ShadowJKangelox|laptop, what happened to your electronics stuff?00:15
angelox|laptopand if i flash stock kernel?00:15
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: you could try to set R&D mode and disable wd_timers, that *might* fix the reboot-after-10s00:15
angelox|laptopShadowJK: I've only 3~4 resistors :)00:15
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: thought you can't flash?00:15
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: no,i can't00:16
DocScrutinizerthough you still might be able to set R&D via flasher00:16
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: the thing is,when i plug usb cable with flasher-3.5 running,it automatically boots uboot00:16
DocScrutinizeryes, expected00:16
DocScrutinizertry coldflash parameter set, plus enable-r&d, plus no-*wd00:17
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angelox|laptopbut only flashing kernel?00:17
DocScrutinizercoldflash kicks in before NOLO even starts to decide it won't obey 'U'00:17
angelox|laptophow should be the command?00:17
DocScrutinizerflashing kernel won't even work in coldflash mode on a flat battery I think00:18
DocScrutinizersorry I got no flasher --help handy atm00:18
DocScrutinizerand I'm also away now for some RL00:18
angelox|laptopbtw,sorry all these questions,i'm kind of desperate :-)00:18
DocScrutinizernp00:19
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: ok,let me try00:19
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: see ~flashing ->coldflash, eliminate the pointers to image file and add the enable r&d instead00:19
angelox|laptopok00:20
rlyIf I understood correctly, you can also flash only your kernel and keep your installed applications, correct?00:20
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DocScrutinizeryes00:21
DocScrutinizerbut you need to take care of the modules, and those live on /00:21
DocScrutinizerwith modules not matching new kernel you'll get a bootloop00:22
DocScrutinizerif you got alternative directory trees for different kernels' modules on /, you can change kernels without any problems00:23
DocScrutinizeraiui00:23
rlyHow am I supposed to know which modules I need and where I get these bits?00:24
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DocScrutinizermodules are installed via a >kernelname>-modules.deb pkg iirc. You'll find them in /lib/modules/2.6.28-omap1/ or more generically in /lib/modules/<kernelname_as_of_uname>00:25
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: i couldn't do yet,if i give you flasher-3.5 --help00:25
angelox|laptop* could you help me?00:26
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: see http://wiki.maemo.org/R&D_mode for the parts regarding R&D and watchdog disabling00:28
DocScrutinizersee if that still works00:28
DocScrutinizerwith flat battery00:28
angelox|laptopok00:29
AtariiFYI wget is not installed by default00:29
DocScrutinizerno-lifeguard-reset no-omap-wd no-ext-wd00:29
DocScrutinizerAtarii: well maybe, but gets installed by one of the pkgs almost everybody installs anyway00:30
angelox|laptopwow00:30
angelox|laptopalmost booted up00:30
angelox|laptopi think i did discover how to do the thing00:30
DocScrutinizer--enable-rd-mode  --- try that if it works at all00:31
angelox|laptopalmost booted up = "I did saw the balls circling(not sure if circling is the correct word)"00:31
angelox|laptopto flash kernel?00:32
DocScrutinizerbouncing? :-D00:32
angelox|laptopyess :-)00:32
* angelox|laptop need learn actions in English :-)00:32
DocScrutinizerthen if this doesn't work you could still try to add the coldflash parameters to the  --enable-rd-mode00:34
DocScrutinizer~flashing00:34
infobotmethinks maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware00:34
angelox|laptopok00:34
angelox|laptoplet me do my magic first :)00:34
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DocScrutinizerflasher-3.5 -c -h RX-51:<hw_id> -F <FIASCO image>  --enable-rd-mode00:36
DocScrutinizerhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Development_Environment/Maemo_Flasher-3.500:37
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: what's your maemo kernel and what's your (rootfs) system?00:39
angelox|laptopmaemo kernel? i don't know,i'm using uboot00:39
angelox|laptopwell00:39
DocScrutinizeruboot with stock kenel?00:39
angelox|laptopyes00:40
angelox|laptopops00:40
antman8969uname -a00:40
DocScrutinizerand system?00:40
angelox|laptopi guess it's stock00:40
angelox|laptopwget http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28-20103103+0m5_armel.deb00:40
angelox|laptoptake from there :)00:40
DocScrutinizerantman8969: nice, but how to do that when system doesn't boot up?00:40
antman8969oh lol, just came in...00:41
antman8969a better question might be, did he ever download powerkernel00:41
antman8969if not, probably stock00:41
angelox|laptopyes stock00:41
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: hw_id?00:41
DocScrutinizer>>The code "RX-51" used in the example is the product code for the N900 device. The <hw_id> is the product HW revision, which is a 4-digit code. Both product code and HW revision can be found from the type label of the device to be flashed. The type label is on the back of the device, underneath the battery.<<00:42
angelox|laptopthere's a lot of info...00:43
antman8969http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php00:43
antman8969this ?00:43
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: though now we're leaving the domain where I can realy help any more, beetr try to ask jacekowski about coldflashing and related stuff00:43
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DocScrutinizer2101 or sth like that00:44
DocScrutinizer2100, 2000, 2010...00:44
angelox|laptoponly numbers?00:44
DocScrutinizersome 4digit stuff00:44
DocScrutinizeryoh00:44
angelox|laptopok00:45
* DocScrutinizer waves00:45
DocScrutinizergood luck :-D00:45
angelox|laptop0434 maybe?00:45
angelox|laptopthanks :)00:45
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DocScrutinizerunpacking or listing a fiasco image will show all the valid hw codes00:46
DocScrutinizerdon't think 0434 been one of them00:47
angelox|laptopi see..00:47
angelox|laptopthere's no other code00:47
angelox|laptop:*(00:47
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angelox|laptopand if i don't input any hw code?00:49
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DocScrutinizerk fsckng hw-id is NOT on the label00:50
DocScrutinizertry 210000:50
angelox|laptopok00:50
angelox|laptop"You have to supply the 2nd image"00:50
angelox|laptopsince i've extracted,i'll suply00:51
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angelox|laptopi'll try 210100:51
angelox|laptopsince there's that at 2nd image,and in a Brazillian website00:52
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# softupd -v --local&00:57
DocScrutinizer[1] 462600:57
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# flasher --local -i00:57
DocScrutinizerflasher v2.8.2 (Jan  8 2010)00:57
DocScrutinizerUsing flashing protocol Mk II.00:57
DocScrutinizerFound device RX-51, hardware revision 210100:57
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DocScrutinizero/00:58
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DocScrutinizerone last thing: you of course *could* create a meego uSD with a file in /etc/events.d or /etc/init.d that calls ShadowJK 's charger script (you'd have to add the needed tools as well, namely i2ctools)01:01
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DocScrutinizerthis should just start charging happily when invoked by uBoot01:01
DocScrutinizer(just like backupmenu would, if it was installed in maemo)01:02
angelox|laptopand where can i download that script?01:02
DocScrutinizerhah simple01:03
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DocScrutinizerhttp://enivax.net/jk/n900/01:03
DocScrutinizerhttp://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge.sh.txt01:03
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DocScrutinizermake sure you adapt the pathnames in there to point to the location where you placed i2cget/set on that meego image01:04
angelox|laptopbooted01:04
angelox|laptopwell..more or less01:05
angelox|laptop:-)01:05
angelox|laptopbacklight worked01:05
angelox|laptopand power on button too01:05
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Shapeshifterboo throttling01:05
DocScrutinizerdamn, are you actually using a Nokia wallcharger to power the device??01:05
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DocScrutinizerI don't think recovery from deep discharge will work with random PC or alien chargers01:07
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ShadowJKmeegocharge.tar or something, iirc01:07
angelox|laptopwhat's alien charger?01:08
ShadowJKnot nokia01:08
Shapeshifterangelox|laptop: the thing they used in indipendence day to upload a virus to the mothership.01:09
Shapeshifters/dip/dep01:09
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angelox|laptopwow01:09
nox-haha01:09
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angelox|laptopi didn't undestand,due my bad English i guess :(01:11
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angelox|laptopDocScrutnizer: Actually,what should i really do,if i can flash normally,flash kernel?01:33
angelox|laptopmaybe flash kernel to charge finely01:34
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: yes, flash same kernel you got now, but without uBoot. But then OTOH if device charged then there's nothing wrong with your system01:39
angelox|laptopOTOH?01:39
DocScrutinizerand if it wouldn't charge noramlly, you weren't able to reach a state where you can flash kernel01:39
DocScrutinizer~otoh01:39
infobotit has been said that otoh is On The Other Hand.  It's YAFA.01:39
DocScrutinizer~yafa01:40
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, yafa is Yet Another Freakin Acronym.01:40
angelox|laptopah ok,thanks01:40
DocScrutinizerI don't understand why your system reboots all the time after 10s01:41
DocScrutinizerunless you used a nonstandard charger01:41
DocScrutinizeryour battery could actually be damaged, assuming it's been you who claimed there's been red indicator light01:42
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DocScrutinizerthis could delay start of charging significantly, so the battery discharges to a point where device shuts down. This happens prior to actual charging even kicking in, due to the delay caused by defect cell01:43
DocScrutinizeris one of my ideas what's going on01:43
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angelox|laptopi see...01:44
angelox|laptopbut there's no more red light01:44
DocScrutinizerbut there's been, no?01:44
angelox|laptopyes,once01:44
DocScrutinizerit's a concerning signal01:44
DocScrutinizerthis red warning light doesn't show up just for fun, or triggered by a random generator. There's been sth severely odd to cause it light up01:45
Shapeshifteris smokku ever on here?01:46
DocScrutinizer~seen smokku01:46
Shapeshifterah wait cordia has a chan on its own01:46
infoboti haven't seen 'smokku', DocScrutinizer01:46
* Shapeshifter goes asking alis01:46
angelox|laptopDocScrutnizer: But i don't know what that did happen :(01:47
DocScrutinizers/whyt/why/?01:47
DocScrutinizerwhat*01:47
angelox|laptopwhy*01:47
angelox|laptopbecause01:47
angelox|laptopit was working01:47
angelox|laptop:(01:47
DocScrutinizerbecause battery discharged deep?01:47
angelox|laptopys01:48
angelox|laptopyes*01:48
wmaroneGAN900: you there?01:48
DocScrutinizerLiIon really hates getting discharged deep. Even more they hate staying in discharged state for prolonged period of time01:48
cehtehpussies01:49
cehtehthey dont like being overcharged either01:49
DocScrutinizerhehe01:49
DocScrutinizercan stand this better though than deep discharge01:49
angelox|laptopDocScrutnizer: and if i take another battery (not from N900) only to flash n900?01:49
DocScrutinizershould work, but won't fix a single problem01:50
angelox|laptopok01:50
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DocScrutinizeras mentioned above I don't see how's your system broken in any way. Doesn't need flashing then01:50
angelox|laptopatm,i would try everything :(01:50
angelox|laptopi'd only like to flash Maemo01:51
DocScrutinizeryou *got* a working maemo system, no?01:51
angelox|laptopto do ~flatbatrecover01:51
angelox|laptopwhen?01:51
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DocScrutinizerwell, there's a bit of a nuisance with uBoot and flatbatrecover, but nothing serious as far as I can tell right now01:52
DocScrutinizeryou said you almost booted your maemo system? Then reflashing it won't change that behaviour I'd say01:53
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: I seriously suggest you do yourself a favour and buy a gift for you: a spare battery so you can swap :-D01:54
DocScrutinizeryou can get cheap batteries for sth like 8$ that work not that bad at all01:54
angelox|laptopok :-) if i find one to n90001:55
angelox|laptopbut..if i buy a table charger?01:55
DocScrutinizerthen if you have same problems with that new battery, you may consider reflashing, or better try investigating what's wrong with charging in maemo, or why it reboots at all01:55
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DocScrutinizerbut for now I tend to blame your battery to be broken to a point where it becomes hard to skip over the charging gap between flatbatrecover (steady amber) and the point in time of booting maemo where bme kicks in and continues with decent charging01:57
DocScrutinizeras mentioned before you might want to install backupmenu of robbiethe1st, which has shadowjk's charging script and gets started very early in maemo bootup process if the kbd is open01:58
angelox|laptopthere's someway to install with device powered off? :-)01:59
DocScrutinizerso the charging gap time becomes really really short, and also the charging script is a bit brute force compared to bme and thus starts charging way quicker by itself01:59
DocScrutinizerno, there's no way to install that to maemo proper02:00
DocScrutinizerbut you could do a similar thing for meego on uSD, as mentioned above02:00
angelox|laptopyes,i'm downloading a image02:01
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DocScrutinizerbut honestly this is not really a software problem, it somehow feels like broken hardware02:01
angelox|laptop:(02:01
DocScrutinizerwhich only partially could get fixed by special sw hacks to counteract the rot cause which probably is a broken battery cell02:02
DocScrutinizers/rot/root/02:02
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: which only partially could get fixed by special sw hacks to counteract the root cause which probably is a broken battery cell02:02
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angelox|laptopi don't like my N900 no more02:05
DocScrutinizeras I understand it there is a protection circuit in Nokia batteries that "cuts the wire" when battery gets discharged too deeply, but that circuit is configured to prevent battery fire and explosion that could result from deep discharge. It's not built to keep battery intact and sane regarding normal function as a power source02:05
DocScrutinizerif you *smehow* managed to keep N900 sucking power from battery despite the voltage dropped to 3.3V, then eventually this circuit would kick in and cause the battery to expose 0.0V on the terminals. This can cause bme and/or NOLO to detect a battery with no voltage and shine up the red error signal02:07
DocScrutinizerN900 sucking battery power beyond sane limits might get caused by hard shutdown, when some autonomous subsystems still stay on as main processor had no time to tell them to shutdown02:08
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DocScrutinizerit also may get caused by somebody/sth frequently trying to boot system despite battery is empty. E.G you have the device in your pocket and while walking the power button gets pressed for each step you do02:10
DocScrutinizerbut there are also batteries that were simply defective from beginning and just break down after a few dozen charging cycles02:11
GeneralAntilleswmarone, pong.02:11
ShadowJKwhy did you install uboot?02:12
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: so again: do your self a favour - buy yourself a gift (maybe for your last or your next birthday, or just for celebrating next sunday) get a spare battery02:12
angelox|laptopmy battery is showing 3.0V02:12
angelox|laptopok02:13
DocScrutinizernothing to blame N900 for - yet02:14
DocScrutinizerand you'll have more fun if you continue to like it ;-D02:15
DocScrutinizeralso nothing really wrong with uBoot as far as I can tell for now02:15
DocScrutinizeronly issue with uBoot: it extends the "charging gap" on boot02:16
DocScrutinizerobviously02:16
ShadowJKThe gap is about 60-90 seconds with my bad battery and meego02:17
DocScrutinizerwe asked jacekowski before if he culd maybe patch NOLO to charge a bit more in hw-based emergency recover charge mode, before NOLO decides to bot up to system02:17
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ShadowJKbut meego has no "battery too low: shutdown" logic on boot with low batt02:18
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: just it seems we booted maemo here, not meego02:18
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ShadowJKyeah :P02:18
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DocScrutinizerand the too low "hysteresis" between NOLO's boot-up threshold and system's shut-down threshold has been mentioned and blamed by speedevil before02:19
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DocScrutinizerif jacekowski was able to use his super-RE-powers to patch a single byte in NOLO to rise the bootip-threshold from some 3.3V to maybe 3.5V this was a really great fix for issues like this one02:21
* ShadowJK can also recover from 2.8V through amber - uboot - run noloboot - maemo:act_dead (or nolo again?) - run noloboot02:21
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ShadowJKwith the bad batt, that has that ludicrous 1.6ohm ir at 2.8V02:22
ShadowJKso it should have smallest margin02:22
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: depending on effective capacity of cell and duration of charging gap, there's always a limit where system will shutdown rather than boot up and charge02:23
DocScrutinizerwhere "effective capacity" here means the capacity available from (dunno) 3.37V down to 3.30V02:24
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DocScrutinizeror whatever the both thresholds may be02:24
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DocScrutinizeralso related to Z for the one is threshold during charging while the other is threshold during massive discharge02:25
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angelox|laptopyes...is my battery :(02:26
ShadowJKhm?02:26
angelox|laptopanother bat from other device it powers on :(02:26
ShadowJKyou had another battery?02:26
DocScrutinizerbasically it boils down to: if a battery that reaches 3.37V @ 700mA charging isn't capable of delivering 1A for 180s without dropping below 3.30V, you got a problem02:27
DocScrutinizer(numbers a bogus random ^^^^)02:27
ShadowJKso that's 0.07 / 1.7.. ah nm :P02:28
angelox|laptopShadowJK,no,i got from other phone,a Motorola One02:28
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: red light always means "GET NEW BATTERY!"02:29
angelox|laptopi shouldn't know that :(02:29
DocScrutinizerunless it's the front-cam-active indicator :-D02:29
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angelox|laptopwhy did someone programmed that red  light?02:30
angelox|laptop:(02:30
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: you could try hotswap to try and charge your presumably defect battery02:31
angelox|laptopit's what i'm trying right now :)02:31
DocScrutinizerdoesn't work without some tricks02:31
DocScrutinizeryou know how to hotswap?02:31
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angelox|laptopi'm connecting two batteries02:32
angelox|laptopthe N900 itself,and one charged02:32
ShadowJKthat's kinda dangerous02:32
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angelox|laptopin parallel02:32
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!02:32
ShadowJKor rather, very dangerous without current limiting02:32
DocScrutinizerit will FOR SURE kill one of both batteries02:33
angelox|laptophow should i do so?02:33
DocScrutinizerprobably both02:33
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: please refer to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=5773402:34
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: obviously you will change a full battery against an empty one though02:35
ShadowJKyou'd need something like 2 ohm resistance between full and empty battery, or they kill eachother or explode02:35
DocScrutinizerand when ShadowJK says "explode" he means BOOOOOM02:36
angelox|laptopi've no way to power on my n900 with other battery,no one fits02:36
angelox|laptophahaha02:36
angelox|laptopi'll do this:02:36
angelox|laptopGet a table charger02:37
DocScrutinizerdidn't you just say your N900 booted up properly with a motorola battery?02:37
angelox|laptopyes,but both connected parallel02:37
angelox|laptopthen you said:02:37
angelox|laptop<DocScrutinizer> angelox|laptop: DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!02:37
angelox|laptopand i'll not do that02:37
angelox|laptop:)02:37
DocScrutinizerdang, get a working battery. Yours is broken. Period02:37
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ShadowJKdid it stay on whn you removed motorola battery and left nokia battery connected?02:38
DocScrutinizeroh fine, so you actually already killed the poor battery even more02:38
angelox|laptopShadowJK: yes02:38
ShadowJKquick, connect charger then ;)02:38
angelox|laptopa bit of time,before i turn off02:39
* DocScrutinizer sighs and returns back to his tedious RL duties02:39
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: That was for ~5 secounds02:39
angelox|laptopi didn't even booted Maemo02:39
angelox|laptopi was only trying to flash Kernel02:39
angelox|laptopso,i didn't kill my baterry yet :)02:39
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ShadowJKeven 0.1 second of that can kill or damage both batteries02:40
angelox|laptopbut why could damage?02:40
angelox|laptopi can't understand02:40
angelox|laptopthey're plugged in parallel02:40
angelox|laptopcan you explain?02:41
angelox|laptop:)02:41
ShadowJKBecause the full motorola battery will send ALOT of current to the empty battery. About 4 Ampere.02:41
ShadowJKThese batteries are not built to handle 4 ampere current.02:42
angelox|laptopit wasn't full fortunately02:42
angelox|laptopkind of 30~40%02:42
ShadowJKIf Li-Ion batteries are at same voltage, then you can parallell.02:43
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angelox|laptopyes,they are02:46
angelox|laptopops02:46
angelox|laptopok02:47
ShadowJKyour nokia was at 3.0V, your motorola would probably be at 3.6 - 3.8. Not the same..02:47
angelox|laptopi see...02:48
angelox|laptopbut i hope there's a minimal chance of work02:48
cehtehthere is a minimal chance for a nice firework02:48
cehtehunfortunally, in most cases it will just die silently :P02:49
ShadowJKthis chance will increase with time after subjecting these batteries to this torture :)02:49
angelox|laptopok. I need buy a battery02:50
cehtehbuy 2 ... 1 to try, the other one to fry02:50
angelox|laptopwhere can i find at least one on Brazil?02:50
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DocScrutinizereach second hand mobile phone shop I'd guess02:56
DocScrutinizeras well as Nokia shops, but those are02:56
DocScrutinizer**really* expensive02:57
DocScrutinizerdunno how's customs in brazil, if it's not as bad as in argentina, you may buy some battery on ebay or dealextreme or whatever02:58
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angelox|laptopi still don't understanding how could i broke my battery by plugging the charger03:00
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: and while you're at it, get rid of your broken and now tortured original Nokia battery. As ShadowJK stated it might have severe damage now that can cause really unpleasant effects in the near future, esp if you continue to use it03:01
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ShadowJKangelox|laptop, you change the story all the time. Before you said you connected battery in parallell with another battery. Now that you plugged charger?03:02
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: ooh it died while device plugged in to charger?03:02
angelox|laptopYes03:02
angelox|laptoplet me explain ok?03:02
angelox|laptopfirst:03:03
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angelox|laptopToday,15 hours,the phone said "low battery". So i did plug the charger,and went to clean my notebook03:03
DocScrutinizerthat's a known effect - sometimes the charger detection doesn't work completely, so device doesn't charge but stays on. This results in discharged battery, though I never heard it deep-discharges battery to a point where cell gets damaged03:03
angelox|laptopwhen i came back,it was powered off with the amber led03:03
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angelox|laptopbut after the amber led,i did remove the charger,the battery,put the battery again and it didn't power on03:05
DocScrutinizerso the discharge was due to a known bug in maemo, which occasionally causes charger not detected. The damage done was by cell being weak by birth, and it just needed a normal discharge to make it break completely03:05
angelox|laptopso i really killed my battery?03:06
angelox|laptopor not completaly?03:06
angelox|laptopcompletely*03:07
DocScrutinizerthe resulting bootlooping didn't help eaither, as it further sucked empty the battery rather than charging it03:07
angelox|laptopthat means...03:08
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: it's unknown if it is killed completely now, but it for sure is severely damaged and highly advisable to not get used any longer03:08
ShadowJKThe battery might not be able to operate properly when very low, it could have been like this always, but you probably never had it go this low before, so you never noticed?03:08
DocScrutinizerexactly03:09
DocScrutinizerand conecting it parallel to a charged battery for sure did some additional damage03:09
DocScrutinizereven if it was only for 0.5s03:09
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DocScrutinizerso get a new battery, and forget about it03:10
DocScrutinizerthere's basically nothing you could've done to prevent this going to happen eventually03:10
angelox|laptop1 month of use:(03:11
DocScrutinizerexcept always check if device really signals "charging" when you plug in the charger03:11
nox-is it know what triggers the bug?03:11
nox-(guess ive been lucky...)03:11
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: as I told you more than 3 times now, the battery was dead from beginning. It's really unlikely it would show such defect after 9 months, it's highly likely it shows up during first 4 weeks of usage03:12
DocScrutinizernox-: not really, I think it's a race03:12
nox-ah03:12
nox-so when it happens just replug charger and hope for better luck?03:13
DocScrutinizeras the sysnodes signal charger is connected, but bme doesn't act accordingly03:13
DocScrutinizeryep03:13
nox-ok, good to know03:13
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DocScrutinizeryou can tell easily there's sth wrong as the charger-detected sound is missing when charger gets not detected ;-D03:16
nox-yeah03:17
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angelox|laptop40 dollars a battery03:17
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ShadowJKtoo much03:17
nox-o_O03:17
angelox|laptopand it isn't original03:18
DocScrutinizerof course you also can check any time by looking at bat applet animation, or flashing amber LED03:18
angelox|laptop160 dollars original one03:18
nox-*nod*03:18
ShadowJKwtf?03:18
nox-o_O!!!03:18
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: WTF, that's as much as I pay for Nokia original BL-5J03:18
ShadowJKis that US dollars?03:18
angelox|laptopyes03:18
nox-taxes?03:19
angelox|laptopIsn't good buy anything in Brazil03:19
DocScrutinizerWUT??? onehunderedandsixty US dollars???03:19
DocScrutinizerdamn, I'll start a smuggling carreer03:20
ShadowJK"Japod BL-5J" is $8.70 on dealextreme.com. It's a good battery. But I don't know if Brazilian customs are evil or not, so better find out first if anyone else has ordered from dealextreme to brazil03:20
nox-what about those (minumum) three scud batteries off ebay that ppl mentioned?03:20
nox-i think they were less than $40...03:20
nox-for three?03:20
angelox|laptopsomeone would like to gift one for me :)03:21
angelox|laptophaah03:21
ShadowJKYeah, japod is second place on dr_frost's battery review list, after the 3-minimum scud :)03:21
nox-i guess getting three might not be a bad idea if you do it anyway...03:21
* nox- not tried yet tho03:22
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angelox|laptopi've never bought anything at dx03:23
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ShadowJKI'd probably try charge my damaged battery carefully, order a new battery, and use old one carefully while waiting for new one. probably takes a month03:25
angelox|laptopthat is what i'll do with a table charger03:25
nox-dx takes a month to deliver?  or only to brazil?03:26
DocScrutinizercharge it *very* carefully, and on a flame resistant table03:26
ShadowJKnox-, I'm a pessimist. ;p03:26
* nox- never bought from dx so i wouldnt know :)03:27
angelox|laptopfor Brazil takes 1month and 1 week~03:27
angelox|laptopthat is what they that i know say03:27
DocScrutinizerdelivery from china often takes even longer, also to Germany03:27
nox-heh i guess...03:27
ShadowJKit's kinda random. Half the time it takes 1.5 weeks to finland. Other half of times it takes 4-6 weeks.03:28
nox-i c03:28
DocScrutinizerprobably they just send one container ship every 8 weeks03:28
nox-haha03:28
angelox|laptopthey would replace only the battery? (warranty)03:28
ShadowJKthe battery has 6 month warranty03:29
ShadowJKin europe atleast03:29
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: if you bought the device originally and it's just one month old, yes then there shall be warranty for the batery03:29
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angelox|laptopso should i send to warranty?03:31
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ShadowJKI am guessing that there is no nokia repair shop nearby?03:31
angelox|laptopactually,i don't know any03:32
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DocScrutinizercheck nokia website03:32
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DocScrutinizerthey have instructions on how to claim warranty repair03:33
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ShadowJKfor me, sending it to nokia took 6 weeks too..03:35
angelox|laptopwow03:35
Ken-YoungI maintain a Maemo 5 gtk+ app.   I want to have that app change its behavior when the window manager shrinks when the user starts selecting a different app.   Does anyone know how my app can unambiguously determine when that has happened? I thought I could just detect loss of focus, but that happens when the app's menu is pulled down too.   Is there an event or signal I can catch that is unique in this situation?03:36
Ken-Youngs/shrinks/shrinks the app/03:36
infobotKen-Young meant: I maintain a Maemo 5 gtk+ app.   I want to have that app change its behavior when the window manager shrinks the app when the user starts selecting a different app.   Does anyone know how my app can unambiguously determine when that has happened? I though...03:36
angelox|laptopShadowJK: I've found two on their website,but they won't complain about uboot?03:38
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ShadowJKthey probably will complain03:38
angelox|laptopso what can i do?03:39
angelox|laptopi'll tell they i've installed a app called uboot-pr13 and i didn't know what it was :)03:41
ShadowJKif there's a shop nearby you could try ask them to charge your battery03:42
angelox|laptopi need to run 7.05 km03:48
DocScrutinizerKen-Young: check if there's some is_visible and/or is_active boolean var available somewhere03:50
Ken-YoungDocScrutinizer, OK, I'll look for something like that.   Thanks for the suggestion.03:51
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: if it's clearly the battery that's defect (which is the case here) I'd say you don't need to even bring your N900. It's sufficient to tell the battery doesn't charge properly and doesn't provide as much power as supposed03:52
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: Ok...03:54
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer & ShadowJK: Thanks for all help today :-)03:54
DocScrutinizerif they ask how you determined that, you can tell them you discharged the battery until device shut down, and after that the battery didn't charge anymore respectively the device didn't boot up as the battery wasn't able to support bootup after initial precharge. You tested with a spare battery and that one worked flawlessly with the device, so it's obviously the battery that's defect03:54
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DocScrutinizeralso mentioning the red indicator should tell service dude all he needs to know ;-D03:55
DocScrutinizerred indicator always means battery defect03:56
angelox|laptopi see...03:56
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: if you feel like it, you can printout the last three posts of mine and hand it to service dude ;-)03:57
DocScrutinizeralso this:03:57
DocScrutinizer~ DocScrutinizer03:57
infobotit has been said that docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko03:57
MohammadAGKen-Young, is topmost and topmost changed03:59
DocScrutinizerKen-Young: I know it's the way QML works on harmattan03:59
MohammadAGlook at HildonProgram03:59
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DocScrutinizerooh, listen to MohammadAG :-)03:59
angelox|laptopit's hard to talk to the dude that would fix my phone,and the attendant (generally) knows that Open-Source is something like a wall charger dissasembled :\03:59
Ken-YoungMohammadAG, Thanks!03:59
MohammadAGI'm alive!04:00
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: but i did like your idea! I'll use it probably :)04:00
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MohammadAGQML isn't helping with that last bit04:00
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I'm glad to see you're alive :-D04:03
DocScrutinizerand one year older? congrats04:03
MohammadAGoh yeah, I'm 18 now :P04:03
* angelox|laptop still 14 :(04:05
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: seen what angelox|laptop told us? obviously IL and neighbours aren't the worst places to buy hw - in brazil they call up USD160 for a BL-5J :-O04:05
MohammadAGI wish I could be 14 again04:05
MohammadAGwould change lots of things04:06
MohammadAGwtf04:06
MohammadAGit's like 20 bucks here04:06
angelox|laptopyes :(04:06
angelox|laptopi did pay about USD550 in my N90004:06
MohammadAGwell, that's not as bad as the 850 I paid04:07
Venemo_N950heh04:07
Venemo_N950that's why I bought it used04:07
DocScrutinizerthat's ridiculous, so a N900 is like 2..3 batteries worth? C'MON Brazil, are you mad?04:07
angelox|laptopi think i'll buy a used BATTERY :-)04:07
cehtehheh04:07
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cehtehsearch harder04:07
angelox|laptopwe need also see the cotation :\04:08
cehtehIceweasel can't find the server at www.amazon.br.04:08
cehtehhah :P04:08
MohammadAGangelox|laptop, can't you ebay it or something?04:08
nox-reminds me of some `media' shops that have ok prices for bigger things but charge a premium for simple things like cables... :)04:08
nzei just made a full system backup but can't seem to find my sms messages; where do those go?04:09
MohammadAG/home/user/MyDocs/.backup04:09
MohammadAGerr, nvm, thought we were talking about the N95004:09
cehtehyou can get an ok'ish 3rd party battery for less than 10Eur (or Dollar)04:09
MohammadAG/home/user/MyDocs/Backups/ I think04:09
cehtehnot as good as the original but useable04:09
angelox|laptopMohammadAG: I prefer bringing it to a support center :) at least i won't pay anything (i hope )04:10
cehtehwell few are even better04:10
angelox|laptophah04:10
angelox|laptopabout USD60 a not original one04:10
dunelj_hi, anybody here have a bit time to change a web application UI to suit N900?04:10
angelox|laptop(now i did calculate with current cotation)04:10
angelox|laptopquotation*04:10
cehtehsearch for nokia 5800 batteries ... they are the same but that phone is far more common04:10
angelox|laptopUSD12004:11
angelox|laptop:(04:12
dunelj_the one people recommand cost $14...04:12
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angelox|laptopShould i live in another country? :)04:12
cehtehtry another shop i cant believe that price04:12
dunelj_Thats a common Chinese brand...04:12
nzeMohammadAG: yeah thx, what i meant was "where in the backup can i find the texts?"04:12
dunelj_Chinese own half of Nokia productions.04:12
angelox|laptopcehteh: I'm getting that price at 'MercadoLivre',it's the Brazillian version of Ebay :)04:12
cehtehwell try another04:13
nzei was looking through the zip's and just found my calendar data, settings and emails etc04:13
nzebut no trace of sms messages04:13
angelox|laptopwow04:13
angelox|laptopif i tell you will not belive04:14
angelox|laptopUSD240 Nokia 5800 Original Battery04:14
cehtehwhere in brazil are you?04:15
dunelj_how???04:15
angelox|laptopSao Paulo04:15
dunelj_ebay sells free shipping04:15
dunelj_angelox|laptop:  just check some free shipping all over world one.04:15
cehtehit 'might' be that i travel to chile next year with a stop over in sao paulo :P04:16
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angelox|laptopand the taxes?04:16
cehtehprolly i should bring a bag of n900 batteries and sell them for $50 there :P04:16
dunelj_angelox|laptop:  does anything sold on ebay count tax?04:16
angelox|laptopcehteh: So,don't buy anything :-)04:16
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angelox|laptopcehteh: I hope i find you haha :)04:16
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angelox|laptop<dunelj_>: I know peoples that needed to pay about USD50 of taxes04:17
* cehteh needs a new n900 battery too soon04:17
angelox|laptopAt first time N900 came here,it was about USD3.000~04:19
angelox|laptopThat's normal?04:19
cehtehwow04:19
nox-mine was like 350eur or so04:19
cehteh499 eur or so for me ..04:20
angelox|laptop everybody may be thinking "He's lying..."04:20
nox-you just have a crazy gov't04:20
nox-:(04:20
angelox|laptopcan i post a link here?04:21
cehtehwell here are shops in germany which still list it with 600Eur04:21
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angelox|laptopfor everyone that want to see: http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-195538404-bateria-do-celular-nokia-5800-_JM04:21
nox-cehteh, yeah but he seems to be unable to find a _battery_ for less than $50 or so...04:22
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cehtehwell, tax luxory products to finance social welfare in a relative poor country isnt that bad imo .. but if this hits your luxus demands its bitter :P04:22
nzewhen you do a full backup, are your sms messages saved? i guess they should be but skimming through the backup archives i can't seem to find anything04:23
nox-how much r$ is an us$?04:23
angelox|laptop1 R$ = USD1.504:23
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nox-so thats still over 100 $ us...04:24
cehteh159 Reais = 99,937224 US-Dollar04:24
nox-for a stupid battery...04:24
nox-ok04:24
nox-still :)04:24
cehtehwell really search another shop04:24
angelox|laptopsorry04:24
angelox|laptop1.5 R$ = USD1 :-)04:24
angelox|laptopi see a dx product, Mini Bluetooth, USD1.8 ...04:25
cehtehhttp://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-191317283-bateria-bl-5j-para-celular-nokia-c3-com-frete-gratis-_JM04:25
cehtehcome on04:25
angelox|laptopIt isn't original :)04:26
angelox|laptopi'm not sure if non-original works finely :)04:26
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angelox|laptopcehteh: i'll buy that one maybe04:27
cehtehhttp://www.tudocelular.com/Acessorios/noticias/n21750/bateria-2400mah-dobrando-autonomia-nokia-5800.html04:27
cehtehhaha04:27
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cehtehangelox|laptop: yes that one is very cheap and has no name on it04:27
* angelox|laptop cries about that photo04:27
cehtehbetter take some which has some name and doesnt fake nokia04:27
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cehtehthis copies are sometimes (often) not as good as the original .. but work more or less, with greatly variyng success04:28
cehtehsome have less than 500mah some have more than the original04:28
angelox|laptopi've saw some Nokia N900 fakes phones called "Nockia N902" :)04:28
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angelox|laptopi see..04:29
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cehtehthere are plenty fakes04:30
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angelox|laptopabout that USB Bluetooth (USD1.8) i find for 10 Reais, = 15 dollars04:30
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angelox|laptopThat's why i want to live in Germany~Russia~United Kingdom :)04:31
cehtehhah here in germany (and most of the EU) electronics are relative expensive too because of taxes04:36
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DocScrutinizercehteh: nah not really04:43
DocScrutinizerrussia is bad though either, at least customs are mad04:44
DocScrutinizerNOKlA N900 (or Nokla N900) found at chinese sellers a lot04:45
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nzei think i have a problem04:46
nze % ls -lAh mnt/home/user/MyDocs/music/\[PERL76\]-\[2009\]-\[Shackleton\]-\[Three_Eps\]04:46
nzetotal 2.9T04:46
nze-rw-r--r-- 1 29999 root  2.3G May 24  2035 ⌡%#?╔ƒ╨.??04:46
nze04:46
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nzeabout 1.6k lines of trash follow (can be found at http://pastebin.com/HZkVnCkj)04:47
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.nokiaphones.net/nokla-n900-is-similar-to-original-only-by-appearance/04:50
DocScrutinizernze: LOL04:51
nzeyeah apple fanboys, go find me an iphone rocking 2.9T internal storage!04:52
DocScrutinizereh?04:52
DocScrutinizerlooking at >> ls -lAh mnt/home/user/MyDocs/ << I think you really got a problem04:53
nzelooks like the internal memory got a few dead spots around there, but that's just my wild guess04:54
DocScrutinizerlooks like you got sth in /mnt that's not supposed to be there?04:56
nzei just mounted my n900's root with sshfs at ~/mnt04:58
DocScrutinizerlooks like you got sth in /mnt that's not supposed to be there?04:58
DocScrutinizer~png04:58
infoboti heard png is the Portable Network Graphics format, a format for storing images on computers. Unofficially its acronym stands for ``PNG's Not GIF.'' PNG was designed to be the successor to the once-popular GIF format, which became decidedly less popular right around New Year's Day 1995 when Unisys and CompuServe suddenly announced that programs implementing GIF would require royalties. http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/04:58
DocScrutinizer~ping04:58
infobot~pong04:58
DocScrutinizernze: I'd say this mount probably went wrong somehow04:59
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DocScrutinizermight be mounted as fat16 or sth, maybe05:00
nzeDocScrutinizer: doesn't seem like it, i similar weird behaviour when i access the folder from the device itself05:00
nzeeg i can't rm that folder05:01
DocScrutinizerhmm, then I strongly suggest to run fsck.vfat on it05:01
nzegives me input/output errors05:01
DocScrutinizerpreferably via/on  PC after connecting the device via mass stroage + USB05:02
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DocScrutinizeranyway the ls output is so obviously wrong from first to last bit...05:04
angelox|laptopOk,i'm going to sleep now! Bye Everyone05:04
angelox|laptopThanks a Lot DocScrutinizer and ShadowJK!05:04
DocScrutinizerMyDocs is VFAT, filesize is limited to 2GB05:05
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: yw, and good luck05:05
DocScrutinizerand good night :-)05:05
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: Thanks,tomorrow i will call to Nokia,i'll tell here anything :)05:05
angelox|laptopthanks! Good night to you too!05:05
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angelox|laptopAnd Good night to [0-9][a-z] people in this channel :-)05:06
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DocScrutinizernze: now I see it, is a sshfs mount even supposed to span filesystems? you say you mounted / to local /mnt, and MyDocs is a mount of VFAT on /home, which in turn is a mount of ext3 on /, which actually is ubifs05:10
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nzeDocScrutinizer: i just fired up fsck and it finds loads of corruptions05:11
DocScrutinizerI'm not surprised05:11
nzei'll try to take care of these first :)05:11
DocScrutinizerI'd take care of unmountig that possibly rogue sshfs mount first05:11
DocScrutinizerthough I guess you already did, otherwise fsck wouldn't really answer politely to a check instruction of that fs05:12
nzeofc. fsck on the device exposed through usb mode05:13
DocScrutinizer:nod:05:13
nzeactually fsck is finding so many problems i'm wondering if it'll get me anywhere05:13
DocScrutinizerprobably not05:13
DocScrutinizerlooks to me like (parts of the) whole partiton got wrong offset so directory blocks are not located anymore05:15
DocScrutinizerthis can happen if the partition got mounted incorrectly and then something been written to it05:16
DocScrutinizermounting a whole flash stick as a superfloppy rather than a partitioned HDD is such a typical situation where all offsets are wrong05:17
DocScrutinizerand writing to first "free" block actually would destroy the partition table05:17
nzewell the majority of the partition seems quite usable still05:19
DocScrutinizerfrequently seen to happen when on mount command the partition is "forgotten", i.e. if you mount /dev/sda instead of /dev/sda105:19
nzewell i'm just running a fsck -n to get an overview of all the errors without manually correcting them all and the output file already counts some 40k lines05:21
nzei guess it'll be a reflash then?05:21
DocScrutinizerwhat's the device you run fsck on?05:21
nze/dev/sdb05:22
DocScrutinizerHAHAHA05:22
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DocScrutinizerisn't it /dev/sdb1 you want to check?05:22
nzenope05:22
DocScrutinizermhm05:22
nzethe partition shows up as /dev/sdb05:22
nzewhich is weird enough..05:23
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nzemaybe this gives any clue? output of parted: http://pastebin.com/duyX3ZWf05:26
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DocScrutinizernze: ok, actually on PC it doesn't show up as a partition. It can't as N900 exports the partition as a singulary device05:29
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DocScrutinizerparted looks good - if done on PC with device connected as mass storage05:31
nzewhat to do then?05:32
nzei already made backups, so i guess i could give fsck with auto-correction a shot05:33
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MohammadAGDocscrutemp, I've seen my N900 export both as a block and as a partition05:37
nzeany suggestions before i get the heavy tools out?05:38
DocScrutinizerwell, my parted output looks weird too: http://paste.debian.net/126453/05:39
DocScrutinizernze: I'd probably run a mkfs.vfat on device05:40
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I think it might export uSD as full device with partitions, while it obviously exports MyDocs as partition only, which means there'll be no partition table on client system, as the data area of mydocs is all it gets to see05:43
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DocScrutinizernze: if I had to guess, I'd think your MyDocs got treated by a partitoning tool creating a partition table on first block on MyDocs05:48
DocScrutinizeras if MyDocs was a raw physical device05:49
DocScrutinizerI could be wrong though, and your parted output is maybe even more sane than mine, though I dunno what's causing the difference then05:49
DocScrutinizermy mount output: /dev/sdd on /media/Nokia N900 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,uid=1000,utf8,shortname=mixed,flush)05:50
nzeDocScrutinizer: i never really played around with it a whole lot though and certainly can't remember repartitioning it...05:51
nze05:51
nzefwiw: % parted --version05:51
nzeparted (GNU parted) 3.005:51
DocScrutinizerconnecting it to a windows machine you could partition it by one accidental click I guess05:51
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DocScrutinizerhmm, that explains a bit: parted (GNU parted) 1.9.005:52
DocScrutinizeranyway parted shouldn't know to do sth about MyDocs, as there's no partition table supposed to exist there aiui05:54
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DocScrutinizercfdisk:05:56
DocScrutinizerDisk Drive: /dev/sdd05:56
DocScrutinizerSize: 28995223552 bytes, 28.9 GB05:56
DocScrutinizerHeads: 64   Sectors per Track: 32   Cylinders: 2765205:56
DocScrutinizerno partitions05:56
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DocScrutinizerhttp://paste.debian.net/126455/06:01
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nzeyea cfdisk seems to see free space http://pastebin.com/vknWeLeM06:10
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DocScrutinizermkfs06:31
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jpinx_awayMy eeepc has XP Home (in Spanish - preinstalled, so no chance to change language) and debian squeeze installed from downloaded debian-6.0.1a-i386-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso as dual-boot. I run XP on my eeepc and can plug in my N900 and connect to internet by using OVI and Dtac 2.5gprs. I want to get debian working online through the n900 in a similar way, but I need debian to be online to get it to work, but i can't get there. I only have gprs2.5 on my Nokia n06:57
jpinx_awayany and all suggestions most welcome :)06:58
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hiemanshujpinx: since its a laptop I am using it has wifi, so you can use mobilehotspot that uses your phone as an AP06:59
jpinxhiemanshu: sounds good -- is it something i can get from the usual repos for the n900?07:01
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hiemanshujpinx: I think its in extra-devel or the normal repo not sure, but yeah, usual repos07:01
jpinxhiemanshu: thanks :)07:01
jpinxas a matter of interest, why does the n900 not show the gprs connected icon when I connect from the OVI suite in XP ?07:02
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jpinx: checking for updates is so slow over gprs :(07:08
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jpinxhiemanshu: cn't find mobilehotspot in extras-devel -- any clues?07:57
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jpinxArgh! needs custom kernel -- I can not risk that :(08:09
DocScrutinizero.O08:09
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jpinxDocScrutinizer: I am much too far from support - up country in laos at the moment08:19
DocScrutinizerhmm, so you can't flash ?08:19
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jpinxDocScrutinizer: I rely on the n900 100% -- I daren't risk it08:40
jpinxthough I might have found a n900 with cracked screen that I can buy cheap to experiment with ;)08:40
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doc|homejpinx_away: tried bluetooth tethering?08:54
DocScrutinizerjpinx: while it's obviously up to you to do the risk evaluation and management, I have to say I fail to see the difference between a reflash to fix a (by whatever unknown reason) messed up system caused by powerkernel and a messed up system caused by arbitrary app pkg installation introducing a broken initscript, faulty sudoers entry, or whatever else. In both cases you should be fine with a laptop, a fiasco firmware image, and a proper08:56
DocScrutinizerbackup of your data on device08:56
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DocScrutinizerI never heard of any package that required user to visit a support center to recover the device08:57
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DocScrutinizerin this regard powerkernel is no different to puzzlemaster or arbitrary fart-apps08:59
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DocScrutinizerand in fact powerkernel has been used by so many users, it could be considered one of the best tested packages available for N90009:00
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DocScrutinizerregardless of the previous rationale I'd also suggest to go for BT tethering, as hotspot is a way more daunting application regarding possible adverse side effects than power kernel, and I wouldn't use it for tethering of just one single PC, that's overkill09:05
DocScrutinizeralso WLAN in "hotspot mode" is a serious power hog09:06
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DocScrutinizerso unless it's for tethering over distances >5m or for tethering a whole bunch of PCs, I'd no doubt go for BT09:08
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robbiethe1stSo...09:40
robbiethe1stNow, I, too have been hit with the infamous usb port problem09:40
kerio:(09:41
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psycho_oreoshw rev 2101?09:42
robbiethe1stYes09:42
lupine_85quickly, to warranty!09:42
robbiethe1stXD bwahahahahaha09:43
robbiethe1stFunniest thing I've seen all day.09:43
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lupine_85non-EU?09:43
robbiethe1stYea09:43
robbiethe1stAnd, I've voided it 6 ways from sunday already, so...09:43
lupine_85hrm. you should really lobby your government for some consumer rights09:43
psycho_oreoslooks like one more added to the tally of growing 2101 USB woes.09:43
robbiethe1stlupine_85: You assume that we have any power at all over our government.09:44
lupine_85(over here, you can't invalidate the whole of the warranty just by doing weird stuff to it. if the weird stuff can't have caused the fault, they can't refuse to fix it under warranty)09:44
psycho_oreoshmm if yer warranty is void, and if you're handy with soldering iron. I wonder if you could get away with soldering another USB port from those solder pads underneath the battery area09:44
lupine_85robbiethe1st, democracy in the US (I'm assuming US and not Belarus :p) is a bit broken, aye09:45
lupine_85still. [OT], etc09:45
robbiethe1stFortunately, looks like the port came out cleanly; looks like it didn't break any of the 5 usb connection pads; though one of the mounting pad bits looks like it has a bit of board on it09:45
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robbiethe1stI should be able to go in, heat up the port, clean it off, put a new layer of solder down, and then carefully place it on top of the pads and heat up each pin individually.09:47
robbiethe1stit'll still be quite a bit of a chore, though...09:47
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* lupine_85 is treating his like a freshly-whelped pup09:49
robbiethe1stEh, it has to do with wiggling side-to-side when removing your usb cable09:51
robbiethe1stI do agree now that filing down the little 'clamp' bits on your cable's a good idea09:51
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robbiethe1stNote that I dropped my N900 many times onto it's cable, no issues. Within a week of a new, tight cable... this happened09:51
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robbiethe1stI have to say... the N900's been one *robust* machine. I've dropped it 4' many many times with barely a scratch; occasionally the back cover will come off, though.09:53
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SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: Great ( that it's clean)09:54
robbiethe1stYea09:55
SpeedEvilRepairing if it's not gets a bunch harder.09:56
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robbiethe1stBRB - new kernel time.09:57
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DocScrutinizer~usbfix10:03
infobotFixate receptacle like this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post547991 - get the pic.zip form there http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27 for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<10:03
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SpeedEvilindeed - that's a much more sane rework10:04
psycho_oreosseriously though, I wonder if the solder pads on the bottom side of that PCB board for USB port be used as regular USB port?10:08
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psycho_oreosI mean lets say in a really really nasty case that the USB port didn't come off cleanly or the person whom tried to fix it did a very poor job of resoldering which screwed up the main microUSB port, would have a second chance with those solder pads on the bottom?10:09
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ShapeshifterSo basically, soldering down the USB port at both sides should keep it in place?10:09
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SpeedEvilyes10:12
ShapeshifterI think I'll do that even though I don't think I have any problems yet10:12
SpeedEvilthat was to Shapeshifter10:12
SpeedEvilpsycho_oreos: REally a bad iea - they have no ESD protection, and are likely to fail in quite short order ue to static10:13
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psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, interesting, I guess maybe for the ESD protection is to maybe solder another cable back out to some other part of device where it could take the static discharge.10:17
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SpeedEvilpsycho_oreos: It doesn't work like that, you need to add additional components10:17
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psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, o.O so in essence its best to not screw up the microUSB port then lol10:18
SpeedEvilpsycho_oreos: Indeed.10:18
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SpeedEvilHowever, you can solder to the nodes that the USB port would normally connect to - at the other end of the tracks, it's just more annoying.10:19
psycho_oreosI saw a thread of some bloke attempting to solder USB from that underside area, don't know how far he got but it was interesting10:19
SpeedEvilThe port on the bottom is electrically seperate in some ways10:19
psycho_oreosso I guess it'll be also less likely to be able to use that alternative port to act in the same manner as the main port? :|10:21
robbiethe1stIIRC it doesn't have the static protection10:21
psycho_oreosyeah that was noted earlier by SpeedEvil :)10:22
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robbiethe1stah10:22
psycho_oreosand it also seems to be missing other components apart from being wired differently10:22
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robbiethe1stSo... I just learned that for whatever reason, liquorix kernel 3.0 won't boot anymore, though 2.6.39.x will. It just... won't run with my mdadm raid10:23
psycho_oreoslike I said, it was somewhat interesting that there was an alternative port from those solder pads on the bottom side of that PCB. Its just a shame that regardless of how bad the outcome of a broken microUSB port, one cannot use the spare/alternative USB port as a regular one10:23
SpeedEvilYou usually can fix to the places the tracks from the notmal poert would connect.10:24
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psycho_oreos*nods* just curiously thinking of alternative options but I guess there probably won't be empty if one really screws up soldering of microUSB port10:28
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psycho_oreosany of you guys happen to own/have access to BH-905? need some information printed on the device (or you can just take a photo of that area and post it up instead for me)10:29
ruskiehttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/17/crave_duet_usb_drive_cum_vibrator/10:31
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SpeedEvilpsycho_oreos: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=bh-90510:33
SpeedEvilmay be of use10:33
psycho_oreosI wonder how long would that device last, if its being used as both a vibrator (placed where it normally goes) and as a mass storage device lol10:34
psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, thanks :D checking the link out10:34
SpeedEvilWhat are you wondering?10:34
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psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, what ruskie pasted (that link on a fancy chic device)10:35
psycho_oreosor are you referring to that BH-905 query? :)10:35
SpeedEvilyes10:35
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psycho_oreosahh, I need to look at internal pictures of BH-905 (without pulling it apart first of course). For that I need FCC ID which, because of the fragility in the design of that bluetooth headset I had to use sticky tape to hold the plastic in place. Though where I used sticky tape on my BH-905, and over time I managed to cover up those FCC ID numbers10:37
SpeedEvilah10:37
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psycho_oreosthey're quite easy to break, that area specifically. Using that bluetooth headset in a dusty environment doesn't make the situation any better :)10:39
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psycho_oreosI guess if I can't find a single useful picture from flickr, I'll just post a tmo thread instead. I thought about it but I thought had someone owns that same bluetooth headset and is also on here, they can save me from creating yet another somewhat pointless thread ;)10:42
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SpeedEvilI am quite happy to look, if you paypal me the funs to purchase some. :)10:42
psycho_oreosI personally wouldn't recommend it :) It looks nice and rather expensive but at the same time its durability is questionable10:43
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psycho_oreosthey (nokia) released a (supposedly) improved version of BH-905, dubbed it as BH-905i. I wonder if they noticed that problem in BH-905 along with random freezes/connectivity issue and addressed it in the improved version or not10:44
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psycho_oreosdefinitely no dice with flickr images, just went through all 12 pages without any luck.10:47
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SpeedEvil:/10:49
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psycho_oreosI should have bookmarked/noted that FCC ID prior to sticking the tape over it.10:50
DocScrutinizermeh, I missed robbiethe1st and he missed ~usbfix10:52
psycho_oreoshe'll be back.. hopefully :)10:52
DocScrutinizerI'll miss him again, as I have to go afk now10:53
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psycho_oreoswell I'll pass the message on if he comes back and I happen to still be around :) btw you wouldn't happen to own BH-905 would you?10:54
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psycho_oreosbah looks like he's already afk oh well10:59
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vi__HELP!!!!11:05
vi__my n900 has gone bananas11:05
vi__bar-nar-nars11:05
vi__the microswitch for the lockslider must be worn out11:06
vi__the only way I can stop the phone from continually spazzing out11:06
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psycho_oreosis by pressing on the power button twice?11:07
vi__is to echo 0 > /sys/somethging/lockslider/disable11:07
vi__chmod 444 /sys/something/lockslider disable11:08
psycho_oreoso.O11:08
vi__this stops the hardware from updating the /sys/ file system11:08
vi__this is if I can even get it to boot without spazzing out because the lockslider GPIO is hammering like a machinegun11:09
vi__HALP MEE11:09
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psycho_oreosI wouldn't know if there's a separate entry for kernel compiling that deals with lockslide but you may want to have a look at that and see if its possible. If it is you can probably compile it without that option but apart from that I really don't have much other thoughts11:11
vi__I thought my n900 and I would grow old together...11:11
vi__:(11:11
vi__BAW11:11
psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, as I started beginning to write a thread on BH-905 I thought `fuck it' and decided to remove those dirty sticky tapes, I got the FCC ID now :D thanks anyway11:13
vi__where to buy a new n900?11:15
psycho_oreostechnologies ages faster than pets these days, I wouldn't even expect N900 to outlast one's life unless one is suffering in terminal condition or kills themselves shortly ;)11:15
psycho_oreosamazon methinks11:15
vi__i have a terminal conditon11:15
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vi__an x-term condition11:15
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vi__the ONLY new n900s on amazon are listed by someone who has a lot of bad feedback for NOT providing new devices.11:16
psycho_oreoss/condition/illness/11:16
vi__what can I possibly get to replace this thing?11:17
psycho_oreosthere aren't many other alternatives for brand spanking new N900 :) I'm sure you're already aware that nokia no longer manufactures N90011:17
vi__...yeah11:17
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vi__where can I stick those lines for disabling lockslider that they get loaded at the EARLIST time possible?11:18
SpeedEvilvi__: ?11:19
psycho_oreoskernel11:19
vi__speedevil: ?11:20
SpeedEvilvi__: ?11:21
SpeedEvilvi__: I don't understand what you're asking.11:21
vi__SpeedEvil: HELP!!!!11:21
vi__09:05 < vi__> my n900 has gone bananas11:21
vi__09:05 -!- Irssi: Join to #maemo was synced in 16 secs11:21
vi__09:05 < vi__> bar-nar-nars11:21
vi__09:06 < vi__> the microswitch for the lockslider must be worn out11:21
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vi__the only way I can stop the phone from continually spazzing out11:22
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vi__is to echo 0 > /sys/somethging/lockslider/disable11:22
vi__ chmod 444 /sys/something/lockslider disable11:22
vi__this stops the hardware from updating the /sys/ file system11:22
vi__this is if I can even get it to boot without spazzing out because the lockslider GPIO is hammering like a machinegun11:22
vi__this is if I can even get it to boot without spazzing out because the lockslider GPIO is hammering like a machinegun11:22
vi__SpeedEvil: now you know11:23
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infobotrobbiethe1st: please see ~usbfix!11:34
psycho_oreoswhoa infobot is right on it :p11:35
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ruskielol11:37
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TimmyTwhere to download multiboot for installing nitdroid? the link in their wiki is broken11:37
vi__SpeedEvil: have you come across the lockslidwer microswitch problem before?11:38
psycho_oreosmultiboot might be available in extras-{testing,devel}11:40
TimmyTit was not availabe in the testing11:41
psycho_oreosthen its probably in devel, the usual end-user warnings still apply11:42
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vi__DocScrutinizer51:11:51
vi__DocScrutinizer51: ?11:51
vi__DocScrutinizer51: I have a hardware question11:51
vi__DocScrutinizer51: GPIO115 (keyboard lock slider) has started to spazz out11:52
vi__it flip-flops open/closed continually11:52
vi__have you come across this before11:53
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vi__?11:53
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TimmyTreformatting mmcblk0p1 as ext3 doesn't cause less cpu usage? in my pc i see reading/writing on a vfat partition uses more cpu12:05
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SpeedEvilIt seems very unlikely it will be significant.12:09
TimmyThmmm?12:11
SpeedEvilI am dubious that it will use more CPU even on the desktop case.12:12
SpeedEvilHow were you measuring it?12:12
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rlyCan I sync the calendar with some Linux application on my desktop?12:30
_berto_http://android-press-release.com/12:31
_berto_LOL12:31
robbiethe1st"I embrace Google's commitment to fighting Android and it's accomplices." XD12:35
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rlyIf I add a contact like 'Von Neumann', it puts it at the letter V, instead of the N. How can I make it work such that the real last name is used for sorting?12:55
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rlyI can input it like Neumann, Von, but that kind of sucks.12:55
rlyIs there an alternative contact applications which does work better?12:55
DocScrutinizerrobbiethe1st: you've seen ~usbfix ?12:55
Shapeshifterrly: call your contact 'herbert Neumann, von'12:56
robbiethe1stHaven't checked, yet12:56
robbiethe1st~usvbfix12:56
robbiethe1st~usbfix12:56
infobotFixate receptacle like this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post547991 - get the pic.zip form there http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27 for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<12:56
Shapeshifterrly: I know it's ugly but I actually think that the contacts app is one of the few stock things that actually works rather well.12:56
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rlyShapeshifter: it also is not very fast, but otherwise it seems great.12:57
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rlyShapeshifter: there are two fields to input a name.12:58
DocScrutinizermeh, contacts is missing a *lot* to become usable12:58
DocScrutinizerrly: you could try "title"12:58
rlyDocScrutinizer: what do you use? Or is your n900 just a geek attribute? ;)12:58
DocScrutinizerrly: I don't have any contacts :-P12:59
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: sad.12:59
DocScrutinizeryep12:59
rlyDocScrutinizer: heh, with your amount of knowledge, I am sure lots of people want to know you.12:59
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robbiethe1stI've no qualms about the contacts app... it's easier than the one in our old Nokia dumbphone, due to having any number of fields12:59
ShapeshifterI like the merge functionality13:00
rlyShapeshifter: can I also read those contacts back in on Linux?13:00
ShapeshifterAnd the integration with the IM/sip/phone apps is good.13:00
jieroHi, anybody here play Quake 3 on N900?13:00
rlyShapeshifter: e.g. with Thunderbird/Evolution/etc.?13:00
jierocan help me with config?13:00
Shapeshifterrly: no clue, sorry, but I'm quite sure you can since you can export vcards or something - I can't remember.13:01
jierointegration of organizer - I still wonder why IM not intergrated into Thunderbird.13:01
ShapeshifterI wouldn't want that.13:02
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jieroShapeshifter: you don't want it on PC, but on mobile you may want it13:02
DocScrutinizermissing: *fulltext search. *Predefined set of fields. *user-defined fields. *alphabethical search without hw kbd. *proper cam integration. *per contact ringtones. *groups. *per group ringtones. *.......13:02
jieroPC i mean desktop13:02
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: well yeah13:02
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rlyHow can I input 'delete'?13:03
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rlyOr is -> Backspace the only option?13:03
robbiethe1stshift + backpace = delete13:03
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rlyHow can I input accents in the contacts app?13:10
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rlySo, I flashed the system again, with the 1.3 global version, but in network mode I still cannot see WPA2. I just see WEP or None.13:16
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rlyWhen I select infrastructure, I see a few extra options, but not WPA2.13:17
jieroI have a problem with ioquake3 config13:17
rly(I was using adhoc mode)13:17
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dm8tbradhoc is not specified for WPA IIRC. that is in the standard13:19
dm8tbrsome software does support it but by far not all13:19
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xkr47weeh n900 arrived13:23
rlydm8tbr: I can set the laptop to be in Infrastructure mode too, what is the difference anyway?13:23
rlydm8tbr: the n900 only says WPA mode, not WPA2 mode.13:24
rlyThe terminology used by Ubuntu for setting up the access point and what the n900 uses is also not the same. The n900 is much more technical (not a problem per se, but I just don't see the point (why not just try all methods to connect (which is faster than typing it in manually))).13:25
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fizzieIn the normal case you just pick from the list of visible networks and don't worry about the method.13:26
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Siceloinfrastructure is when an AP is available. so if you set it on your laptop without AP, either it can act like one, or you won't have any connectivity13:26
Shapeshifterrly: what is your greater goal?13:27
Shapeshifterrly: using the internet connection of the n900? moving files?13:28
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rlyShapeshifter: basically being able to use the Internet on the n900.13:28
rlyShapeshifter: at least until I have a real AP.13:28
rly'real' being some kind of wifi router.13:29
Shapeshifterrly: on the n900? As in, your laptop is connected to the internet?13:29
rlyShapeshifter: the laptop is connected via a wired connection.13:29
rlyShapeshifter: I also want to ssh to the n900 and configure some stuff, etc.13:29
rlyWithout Internet, it is a pretty dead device ;)13:29
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Sicelothen ad-hoc is your only option for wireless atm.13:30
Sicelobut, there's also USB Networking13:30
Shapeshifterrly: I strongly rrecommend either using USB or bluetooth: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3771013:30
rlyShapeshifter: I also have bluetooth. Does that work over 10 meters?13:31
Shapeshifteruh, hardly :|13:31
rlyShapeshifter: ok, so far does it get?13:31
ShapeshifterI doubt you're getting more than 2m.13:33
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ErwinJungeI've used the bluetooth internet sharing thing for approx 5 meters reliably.13:36
ErwinJungeNot sure if it matters, but in my case the N900 provided internet to my laptop.13:36
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ShapeshifterErwinJunge: mhh, I've been doing that as well for the past week and I think it broke down after a meter or so but maybe it was just a glitch. On the other hand, i was quite baffled when I was editing some stuff on the N900 using vim over SSH, then I went shopping taking my N900 with me and forgot the session open, reconnected at home, and I was able to continue working. the ssh session didn't break :<13:39
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ErwinJungeHm.. that would baffle me as well13:40
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ping13:45
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: pong13:49
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jiero...13:51
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, gonna have to borrow yer hardware brains :) So let me get this straight, the FMTX antenna is that lookalike clip thingy with two test pads to the left of it?13:51
DocScrutinizeryou can ask questions :-D13:52
psycho_oreoserr I did lol13:52
DocScrutinizermay I ask why that matters at all?13:52
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psycho_oreosthe friggin hardware schematics pdf got me spinning round and round for awhile whilst I was trying to add new information to hardware hacking on the maemo.org wiki13:53
psycho_oreosfor reference and curious sake13:53
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peterbjornxzim sorry to interrupt, but what exactly does pivot_root do13:54
DocScrutinizerman pivot_root?13:54
psycho_oreosI guess similar to chroot except you can't exactly exit out of chrooted environment13:54
peterbjornxzwell i read the manpage but its not really clear to me13:55
DocScrutinizerit basically changes rot from one directory/mountpoint/fs to another13:55
peterbjornxzwhy is chroot still necessary then13:55
psycho_oreosbecause you can exit out of chroot13:55
DocScrutinizerit's used e.g. to crank up the real system coming from an initrd13:55
psycho_oreosI'm only guessing here13:55
peterbjornxzi mean in the boot script13:55
peterbjornxzit pivotroots then it does exec chroot . /sbin/init $RUNLEVEL13:56
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DocScrutinizerpeterbjornxz: in init there's no chroot except for processes running in a chroot jail13:56
peterbjornxzno i mean in preinit13:56
TimmyThow much it takes to boot up nitdroid?13:57
peterbjornxzlook at the original preinit13:57
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DocScrutinizerpreinit is really nifty tricky stuff13:58
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, fyi: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking#External_antennas <-- in reference to the initial question by myself :)13:58
DocScrutinizerand it holds a lot of legacy from diablo where we actually had an initrd13:58
peterbjornxzyeah, im trying to make a small rootfs that will only boot into the eMMC13:59
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: in answer to your initial Q: the contact is X618913:59
peterbjornxzit worked but all of a sudden it broke13:59
peterbjornxzreflash of rootfs and reflash of eMMC didnt help14:00
DocScrutinizerthere are also J6192 and J6193 probably as testpads14:00
DocScrutinizerX6189 is in component placement diagram quadrant H114:00
peterbjornxzpivot_root . mnt/initfs14:01
peterbjornxzecho "progress: 3"14:01
peterbjornxzexec /usr/sbin/chroot . /sbin/init 214:01
DocScrutinizerfind H1 with X6189 in schematics p.17 "Bottom"14:02
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, yeah X6189 is what I eventually figured out. J6192 and J6193 is also what I later guessed as test pads but I wouldn't have a clue. You're citing from that section that I just created not long ago lol, I was hoping to see if you have a different view on it.14:02
DocScrutinizerI'm not citing14:02
psycho_oreosahh14:02
psycho_oreoswell ok that is definitely is the case then :D thanks for double-checking14:02
DocScrutinizeryw14:03
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DocScrutinizernow let's see what you've been up to on that wiki page that I didn't cite14:04
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peterbjornxzok that chroot in preinit is weird14:04
peterbjornxzi started a shell after the pivot root and / is already the new FS14:04
fizzieLike the pivot_root(2) syscall manpage says, "BUGS: Some of the more obscure uses of pivot_root() may quickly lead to insanity."14:06
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psycho_oreosnothing much to be frank, I've tried to make it clear on my part with regards to external antenna capability. Too bad one cannot drill holes in supposedly empty areas of the PCB. Dumb idea indeed but I still dream about it, afterall GPS && BT/WLAN are on the obverse side of the PCB.14:06
peterbjornxzi've never taken my n900 apart but wouldnt it be possible to "carve" a indentation in the housing and run the wires thru that14:07
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fizziepeterbjornxz: The chroot is probably there "just in case", because according to the specifications pivot_root "may or may not change" the root of any other processes than the one calling pivot_root, so if it's using the separate pivot_root command the calling shell's root might happen to not change.14:09
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: those hirose test conectors are usually specified for sth like 20..500 mating cycles, before they definitely break/fail14:10
psycho_oreosIt is possible to carve holes in the plastic external housing but my personal view is to try and minimise as much protruding heads on the N900, and also have all the extra heads coming out of the same area (i.e. from the back of N900). Also I've never pulled N900 apart myself as well. Though it did have the original keypad replaced with aftermarket variant by a non-certified technician14:11
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ahh, but then again they aren't that firm when `clipped' in imo as opposed to SMA being `screwed' in14:12
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: we had hirose GSM connector on Neo FR, for e.g. car cradle with external ant. It didn't really pan out14:13
DocScrutinizerhirose is incredibly flimsy and really only meant for fab calibration purposes14:13
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, meaning that its useless especially when you're in an area that has poor coverage for instance?14:14
psycho_oreosbah :/14:14
lcukapart from the htc flyer, are there any new tablets with pen input?14:14
DocScrutinizerthe cable loss (the wiki erratically calls this "interference") on those thin cables is extremely high, so one meter may easily eat up all the gain you get by the external antenna14:15
psycho_oreosI mean in the case of WLAN devices, adding external antennas via hirose u.fl is definitely a big boost. I though it would similarly affect in this case14:15
psycho_oreosheh I suppose "interference" can probably be called "noise induction"14:16
DocScrutinizercheck out dB/m loss specifications of thin cables14:16
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: that's nonsense14:16
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DocScrutinizerthere's no noise induced, it's just the signel getting weaker with every cm of cable it travels14:16
psycho_oreosyeah I know about thin cables being a huge issue.14:17
psycho_oreosahh14:17
DocScrutinizeryou can easily find cables that have like 6dB loss per meter14:17
psycho_oreosthen there was that other issue with making it run through adapters/converters.. i.e. from one head to another different head.14:18
DocScrutinizeryou hardly find antennae with 6dB gain14:18
DocScrutinizeryes, connectors also have loss, and spoil wave impedance and thus call standing wave aka reflections14:19
psycho_oreosunless you get directionals imo14:19
psycho_oreosahh14:19
DocScrutinizerthe cable needs a carefully tuned impedance measured in Ohm though it's not a real resistance14:20
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psycho_oreosheh I can imagine that would be logical, afterall Ohm is really useful for electricity in general14:21
DocScrutinizerevery discontinuity spoils that impedance locally and thus creates reflections. Like a rope you move up and down to send waves along it, and there's suddenly a weight sitting on the rope14:21
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DocScrutinizerthe Ohm impedance of a cable says "you will not see any reflections if you terminate the cable with a resistor of that size"14:22
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psycho_oreoshmm14:23
cityLightshow can I run a program with gdb to see if it exits due to memory?14:23
DocScrutinizerconnecting two cables with different Z is like tying togetehr two ropes of different strength. And wave yu sent along the rope will not move smothly from the thin to the thick rope or vice versa14:23
cityLightswhen I run PROGRAM in a script , it fails14:24
cityLightsI want to know why it failed. assuming the kernel killed it because it was asking for too much memory14:24
DocScrutinizercityLights: if that was the reason then that's recorded in dmesg/syslog14:25
DocScrutinizercityLights: I suggest to use strace to start and monitor the PROGRAM14:25
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DocScrutinizerlast few diagnostic lines of strace output probably will yield the reason why it terminated14:26
cityLightsthanks a lot mate14:26
cityLightsyou are usually nice14:27
psycho_oreosI guess ultimately I'll have to mod mine and see how far I go lol. I thought I'd be able to find interesting results if there were external antennas attached, but generally everyone's mileage varies and as noted there wasn't any huge difference when external antenna was attached to OM FR for GSM :/14:27
x29ahi folks, im trying to develop an app using the qtsdk and qt mobility. i can install the 1.1.3 qtm via the installer but need functionality from the 1.2 qtm. i found http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Latest_Qt_and_Qt_mobility_evaluation_on_Maemo which lets me install some debs, but how do i integrate the headers (-dev) into the qtsdk? will mad-admin do that for me?14:27
DocScrutinizercityLights: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Debugging & http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5/strace14:28
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: external *active* antenna for GPS makes some sense14:29
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, active as in attaching something like a signal booster? ;)14:29
DocScrutinizeras the antenna can be way better due to larger patch area14:29
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: yes14:30
psycho_oreosahh14:30
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DocScrutinizerthe booster compensates for the cable loss14:30
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SpeedEvilThe FR had a monstrously huge antenna.14:30
SpeedEvilRidiculously.14:30
DocScrutinizerwhile the larger patch gives better senitivity14:30
SpeedEvil(for a phone)14:30
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: out RF house were fools14:31
DocScrutinizerour*14:31
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: is a battery powered bluetooth gps receiver any good with the n900?14:31
psycho_oreosBT/WLAN can definitely benefit if its done properly. FMTX would probably be evil if it had external antenna ;) people using that mod to put huge directional antennas in a bid to block other radio station's signals ;)14:31
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Shapeshifterpsycho_oreos: I would love to do that.14:31
TimmyTahh. i've installed nitroid on my device, but in the welcome screen how much i press that android, it does nothing14:31
psycho_oreosShapeshifter, do which?14:31
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Shapeshifterpsycho_oreos: force my music onto my neighbor14:32
Shapeshifter:>14:32
Shapeshifterj/k14:32
psycho_oreosShapeshifter, well you could :)14:32
psycho_oreosin theory that is ;)14:32
DocScrutinizerthey managed even to give us sensitivity diagrams for antenna that didn't match for 0° horizontal plane and 0° vertical plane, though it's same line of view14:32
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: probably as good as with arbitrary other devices14:32
x29ano one familiar with qt mobility (on linux) and want to give me some hitns?14:33
x29ais there a channel for qtm stuff?14:33
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: generally those GPS mice are better than the integrated GPS RX of a phone14:33
x29athere is14:33
* psycho_oreos looks at the sensitivity diagrams ... with great confusion14:33
psycho_oreoslol14:33
nzedamn DocScrutinizer what time zone are you living in? or have you just given up on sleeping alltogether?14:34
DocScrutinizeryes :-D14:34
SpeedEvilWhat is GMT+5?14:34
SpeedEvilI'm there at teh moment14:34
SpeedEvilRussia?14:34
RST38hMooall14:34
SpeedEvilIndia?14:35
RST38hIsrael14:35
DocScrutinizermooorst14:35
RST38hWelcome to Israel, SpeedEvil14:35
* SpeedEvil needs to fix his sleep schedule.14:35
psycho_oreos<-- This does not have super cow powers14:35
cityLightsRST38h: are you in tel aviv?14:35
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: abandon sleep, problem fixed14:35
cityLightscan we meet for beer?14:35
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RST38hcityLights: Me? Tel Aviv? No.14:35
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cityLightsok, whrere IS you/14:36
cityLights?14:36
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RST38hRight now? Greece.14:36
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cityLightsvacation?14:36
RST38hsomething like that14:37
cityLightswish I could see a n950....14:37
RST38hIt is pretty much like E7, just done right14:37
cityLightsI didnt apply in time, and so I was left with my n90014:37
TimmyTim going to kill that GREEN BEE OF ANDROID, why this slow doesn't go to the next step?14:37
cityLightsI wounder if I may still get one....14:38
jpinxDocScrutinizer: I understand wht you're saying, but reflashing is not a snsible optoion for me. Better to do the networking the right way .  I tried bluetooth but it is not functioning in XPhome :(14:38
RST38hWhy not apply now?14:38
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RST38hThere were 50 extra available just recently14:38
cityLightsI looked at www.meego.com, and didnt find a link14:38
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DocScrutinizerx29a: there might be some helping user eventually. Just qtm isn't that popular yet14:38
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, I suppose there's no way to also tell judging by looking at the hardware schematics which one of the test pads is positive for FMTX? page 8 for reference. I'm guessing J6192 is positive as J6193 is wired to ground it seems and that has to be negative according to my rather poor electrical knowledge :)14:38
psycho_oreosI really don't think one gets any second or successive chances at applying to obtain N950 :p14:39
x29aDocScrutinizer: allrighty, ill stay around #qt-mobility for a while14:39
x29aand figure it out on my own (i hope)14:39
DocScrutinizero.O14:40
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you're multiple?14:40
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: for RF there's no such thing like positive and negative. GND is GND though, and GND very usually runs via shielding mesh of a coax cable14:41
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ahh14:42
psycho_oreosso with RF antennas its live and ground? :/14:43
DocScrutinizeryes, like RCA14:43
* psycho_oreos googles14:43
DocScrutinizeraka cinch14:43
psycho_oreosthanks :)14:43
psycho_oreosI should probably add a note to that on that wiki page14:44
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: that's not worth a note14:44
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psycho_oreos*slaps self in forehead* good thing RCA == RCA as in the usual A/V coaxial cables14:45
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, *shrugs* for those whom may want to try wiring up SMA head to those test pads :)14:46
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DocScrutinizerthey shouldn't do that, better use the test connector14:47
* chem|st pokes DocScrutinizer 14:47
DocScrutinizerEEEK14:47
chem|st~botsnack14:47
infobotaw, gee, chem|st14:47
psycho_oreoswhat I meant was to solder a cable with SMA bulk head on one end and naked wires on the other end onto those test pads :)14:48
DocScrutinizerthey shouldn't do that, better use the test connector14:48
psycho_oreoshuh? wire antenna directly to the test connector instead?14:49
DocScrutinizertest pads are for test only, they aren't optimized for low loss. See my above lecture about Z of a RF conductor14:49
psycho_oreosahh yup14:49
DocScrutinizerbut ooh I see we got no hirose connector on FMTX14:50
psycho_oreoslol14:50
psycho_oreoswell I guess there's no need to apparently :)14:50
DocScrutinizerwouldn't make sense to have hirose AND testpads14:51
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: indeed, for a simple go/nogo test a testpad is just fine14:51
psycho_oreosstill having test pads is better than nothing :D at least it is possible to dream of wiring those FM antennas onto it14:52
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: anyway as long as the original antenna is connected to X6159 there's no way to properly connect an alternative external antenna14:52
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DocScrutinizeras both antennae work as termination Z for the trace, so you will actually spoil all when connecting a second antenna14:53
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: your only possible way to connect an external FMTX is by removing the internal one and connecting a cable to X6159 instead14:54
DocScrutinizerall that is mere theory. In practice all RF is mere voodoo14:55
DocScrutinizerbut some things don't work even in voodoo14:55
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, yeah I was thinking of that, to desolder that X6195 weird looking antenna and solder something like a retractable antenna14:55
psycho_oreossomething like this *snickers* http://fl2.shopmania.org/files/images/19377/gray-gold-trim-retractable-antenna-for-motorola-t720-i-new~t_19376336.jpg14:55
DocScrutinizeryou'd first need to find out abut footpoint Z of the internal ant14:56
psycho_oreosand having that thing sticking out of N900, *laughs* making N900 look hardly any different from one of those chinese clones.. *fake* N900 with TV receiver (but instead its FM transmitter antenna)14:57
psycho_oreosyup14:57
DocScrutinizerthe trace on PCB and the antenna are carefully paired and tuned14:57
SpeedEvilTrue, but misleading.14:57
SpeedEvilA very badly matched external antenna connected in parallel may have several ordes of magnitude more response due to being a more efficient radiator.14:58
DocScrutinizeryeah, that's where vodoo starts14:58
psycho_oreosthat'll be all fun and games for me when it comes to the day that I get around modding my N900 :). Though the thought of having one of those retractable antennas like that link sticking out of N900 looks funny :)14:58
DocScrutinizerit *might* - orit might only for 95.8 MHz whil for 97MHz nothing works. Or it makes TX chip break with ESD, or what the hell else may happen14:59
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psycho_oreosor it might not even transmit on any specified range heh15:00
DocScrutinizergenerally SpeedEvil is right15:01
DocScrutinizera "better" antenna has chances to perform better, usually15:01
SpeedEvilESD is a big issue15:02
peterbjornxzlolwut15:02
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DocScrutinizeranyway keep in mind there are no unipole antennae ever. Always dipoles, usualy the GND is the other pole15:02
Hurrianhmm15:02
peterbjornxzAll telephony functions, including emergency calls, are disabled due to a communication error. To recover , you might have to reboot the device.15:02
psycho_oreostrue but I wouldn't agree the fancy antenna being embedded onto the N900 is actually that great. If anything I tend to think of it as an inhibiting factor just to keep authorities happy.15:03
DocScrutinizerouch15:03
Hurriani think we may have a winner in the "N900 replacement" area15:03
Hurrianhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iit5_YcTBC015:03
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: well FMTX ant has proper ESD protector tranzorb15:04
chem|stHurrian: neat15:05
DocScrutinizeralas no source Z to 'protect' the protector15:05
DocScrutinizeror more like source Z is the embedded property of antenna15:06
peterbjornxzin that vid, look at the usb cable15:06
Hurrianchem|st - the downside is, there is no GSM model15:06
peterbjornxzits a nokia cable15:06
Hurrianpeterbjornxz, according to the people on /g/, it needs to use cables with shorted D+ D-15:06
peterbjornxz?15:07
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Hurrian...much like to N900 charger ;)15:07
chem|stHurrian: but (native) is not native, native is android isn't it?15:07
Hurrianchem15:07
Hurrianchem|st : it rebooted, and booted ubuntu15:07
peterbjornxzah i see why phone didnt work15:07
Arkenoismartbooks suck15:08
peterbjornxzProgramming CMT:  63%Sending request 0x12 failed: Cannot send after transport endpoint shutdown15:08
chem|stHurrian: yeah but native is "shipped with"15:08
Hurrianit's only $150, bought it, arriving by next week, returning with test results15:08
Hurrianchem|st , native is not in chroot ;)15:08
Arkenoiand "pocket desktop" sucks, as one may notice with easydebian15:08
peterbjornxzyea, native means running on bare hardware15:08
chem|stand the size is good, add some hardware and good15:08
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Hurriani hope it has some kind of hardware acceleration though15:09
chem|stok if they mean native with that then ok15:09
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Arkenoithere was zaurus once15:09
Arkenoiand it sucked as well15:09
Hurrianarkenoi, it's a rebranded sharp device15:09
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Hurriandriving a 960x480 display with CPU power will be painful if it doesnt have some accelerator15:10
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Hurrianhmm, snapdragon qsd8250@1GHz armv7 with adreno 20015:11
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vi__DocScrutinizer:15:18
vi__DocScrutinizer: is here?15:18
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rlyWhat format sim cards fit into an n900? It seems mine is too big.15:39
chem|strly: normal15:39
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robbiethe1stYea, normal sim cards15:39
rlyI opened the thing besides the camera where a small metal thing is now pointing up.15:39
rlyThere is a logo on the simcard which likely is useles.15:40
rlyuseless*15:40
robbiethe1stNo, the sim card's under the battery15:40
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rlyAh, now I see it.15:40
chem|strly: that is the SD-card slot15:40
rlychem|st: thanks :)15:40
kirmathe other one is microsd slot...15:40
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chem|strly: got a new one?15:41
chem|stor used?15:41
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* kirma purchased a new N900 from local shop couple weeks ago15:42
kirmastill couple scattered in random shops supposedly15:42
rlychem|st: used, but practically new.15:43
kirmaold N900 lost the USB connector, and I know Nokia warranty is not giving anything particularly useful (although it might be reasonably sellable) at this point15:43
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kirmajust be extra careful with the USB connector, and don't let strangers ram the plug into it. it can be broken with singe act of violence (unlikely to detach immediately, but later anyway)15:44
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rlychem|st: before I spend 700 euros on a new device, I better should know how to use it.15:46
chem|st700eur?15:46
psycho_oreossounds like someone got ripped off15:47
rlychem|st: a new Iphone costed about that when it got introduced.15:47
x29acombo deal, buy an old n900 and get two n950 for 700eur ;)15:48
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rlyI don't think I got ripped off on my n900.15:48
kirmaaround 470 euros for the brand new N900 couple weeks ago, and what it was for direct order from nokia when it was new... 620 euros maybe?15:48
rlyI got it for 185 euros.15:49
psycho_oreosthen what was the 700eur figure for? N9?15:49
x29a185€ is reasonable15:50
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chem|strly: a new iPhone is not even worth 185€ to me15:51
chem|stbut buying it for 185 and selling it for 300 is worth it! (that idiots still buy that shit?!)15:52
rlychem|st: because it is closed?15:52
rlyAnyway, my GPS is not working.15:52
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rlyI put in an old SIM (someone said that might help), but I don't get any signal.15:52
chem|strly: because it has nifty sticky fingers when you activate, license agreement not to mention15:52
chem|strly: if the chip is not gone it may take up to 12 minutes to get a fix without network assistance15:53
rlychem|st: wow15:54
chem|strly: is it upgraded to newest public release?15:54
kirmaphone-style devices are really designed to be used with assisted GPS15:54
rlychem|st: yes15:54
chem|strly: gps roundrobin is 12mins15:54
rlychem|st: then how does a TomTom do it?15:55
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chem|strly: the same way15:55
rlychem|st: you walk outside with batteries just entered and you get a fix in 30 seconds.15:55
rlychem|st: or is that because it remembers where it was?15:55
kirmaassist provides ephemerides and/or almanac, location estimate and somewhat reasonable guess of current time15:56
chem|strly: if you change the location (+100km) of a tomtom with batteries removed it might take a while!15:56
kirmaalthough it's certainly not as precise in user plane as it would be on control plane15:56
kirmaI believe tomtom and friends have dramatically better antennas on their devices15:57
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chem|stif the tomtom got a gsm database within it can determine your location from that15:57
kirma(of course, maintaining almanac and such is commonly used strategy to improve lock time)15:57
chem|stkirma: it is the only wawy to improve fixing time15:58
chem|stwithout almanac no fix...15:58
kirmaif it has no GSM modem, it probably doesn't have a chance, and almanac download is necessary anyway (over GPS slowly or over GSM or such quickly)15:58
rlyWhat is almanac download?15:59
chem|strly: it is about 50baud15:59
DocScrutinizer~gsm-agps15:59
infoboti guess rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP15:59
chem|strly: almanac is the dataset of the satelites15:59
rlychem|st: so, the satellites broadcast that?15:59
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chem|stwith that you can calculate your time diversion and such your location15:59
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kirmaI'm not entirely certain what SUPL (protocol used in N900, for instance) provides in practice, but I'd guess also almanac15:59
rlychem|st: ok, but even without a SIM it should work after 12 minutes, or 30 minutes to be sure.16:00
chem|strly: yes they broadcast that with a round robin of 12minutes16:00
chem|stwith a satelite at view 12minutes not a second longer16:00
fluxchem|st, unless a piece of data has been corrupted?16:01
DocScrutinizeryep16:01
DocScrutinizerthen it takes another 12min16:01
chem|stwell you need more satelites at view to get a position but the almanac will be renewed in your device cache after 12minutes16:01
kirmaenabling assisted GPS is really a good idea16:01
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kirmatypically that drops time to fix to mere seconds (assuming visible sky)16:01
rlykirma: how do you do that?16:02
DocScrutinizerin settings16:02
chem|stflux: yeah things like bad weather in terms of sunstorms and such can give you that16:02
rlyI saw a location option.16:02
rlyBUt I don't recall seeing assisted gps being mentioned anywhere.16:02
chem|styeah location options and give that thing wifi...16:02
kirmasettings -> position -> network positioning -> enable and location server: supl.nokia.com16:03
rlykirma: ah, ok.16:03
kirmauses GPRS, assuming you let it16:03
rlykirma: can you also let it use wifi?16:03
kirmademands GPRS actually16:03
chem|stkirma: any network16:03
DocScrutinizersettings -> GPS -> network positioning16:03
kirmaI think it wants, for some reason, to get cell info and (for no apparent reason) use GPRS specifically16:04
chem|stit needs gsm towers to locate but networkconnection can be any16:04
DocScrutinizerdirectly above textbox for supl server URL16:04
chem|stkirma: works with wifi but you need your gsm on to work as it needs the celltower IDs16:04
kirmatypical data usage for that is couple kilobytes per fix. then again, how often that happens is a different question...16:05
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DocScrutinizer~gsm-agps16:05
infoboti heard rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP16:05
DocScrutinizeris the big secret16:05
kirmachem|st: I'm not certain if it works with plain wifi data bearer nowadays, but AFAIR it didn't before16:05
chem|stand FYI I have a 3G tower near by which is located about 400km away in the nokia database... so I never get a fix as it constantly overwrites the almanac with a wrong location one16:05
vi__DocScrutinizer: My KBlock slider switch is going nuts.  dmesg shows GPIO113 open/closing several times a second for a bit then nothing.  The only way I have been able to make the n900 stable (i.e. not un/locking continuosly) is to16:05
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chem|stkirma: you need celltower IDs...16:05
DocScrutinizervi__: fix switch?16:06
vi__DocScrutinizer: set the file permission of /sys/something/something/kblock/disable16:06
vi__to read only16:06
kirmaalmanac is global, but location estimate of course not...16:06
vi__DocScrutinizer: have you heard of this microswitch failing on anyone elses n900 before?16:06
DocScrutinizerno16:06
DocScrutinizerbut switches fail sometimes16:06
vi__DocScrutinizer: Bah16:07
vi__DocScrutinizer: I know16:07
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chem|stkirma: yes the other way round it overwrites location caches with wrong entries from the almanac as it thinks it is somewhere else16:07
rlyWith the size of electronics these days, you basically have to pray it works.16:07
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rlyAt least, that was the impression I got from a book I read on FPGAs.16:08
vi__DocScrutinizer: the funny thing is I have visually inspected the PCB and the microswitch 'looks' ok, it even still has the appropraite springing action.16:08
DocScrutinizervi__: seems easy enough for a experienced solderer to replace that switch16:08
chem|stDocScrutinizer: kblock is the sideswitch or the magnet one?16:08
jacekowskisideswitch16:08
chem|stok16:08
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chem|stthat should be quiet easy to solder...16:08
vi__mmm, where would I get a switch part number?16:08
chem|stvi__: which country are you from?16:08
vi__uk16:08
DocScrutinizersliding switch tk_lock16:08
DocScrutinizerhard16:09
DocScrutinizertry to find sth that looks like matching, from digikey. Or ask Nokia care center for a spare part16:09
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vi__It looks easy enough to solder a new one on, I was just *hoping* I might have overlooked somthing.16:09
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chem|st5£ is a switch..16:10
DocScrutinizervi__: just resolder the old one, just i n case16:10
vi__apparently I have a warranty till may 201216:10
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vi__but I sure as hell won't get an n900 back, even if they accept my one for repair16:11
fluxvi__, well, better do that then? ..and hope you get an N900 back :)16:11
chem|stvi__: then send it in... with a note if they do not repair you want it back anyways16:11
Appiahfunny thing chem|st16:11
fluxwhile you're at it, you could get a switch that properly debounces16:11
chem|stAppiah: what?16:11
AppiahI did that16:11
chem|stAppiah: the note?16:11
Appiahwrote , send it back if you are not gonna repair i16:11
Appiahit*16:11
fluxit's bloody annoying to slide the switch and it almost goes to screensaver and then comes back16:11
fluxand then it's stalling for a second or two and I need to retry16:11
rlychem|st: then they would just leave it on the shelves and send it back after a few weeks.16:11
chem|stAppiah: did that with the insurance company16:11
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Appiahoh16:11
fluxwell I guess vi__ would also be satisfied with a new N900 :)16:12
DocScrutinizerflux: vi__: the switch is Normally Open. So debouncing can't be the issue16:12
chem|stwell you have warranty so they have to give something to you, s/t else then only your broken device16:12
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Appiahthey sent me a n8 =(16:13
AppiahI refused to take it16:13
fluxdocscrutinizer, maybe I don't use the right term. what's it called, filtering the switch to give proper pulses instead of short glitches?16:13
vi__flux: debounce16:13
vi__Appiah: what country are you in?16:13
chem|stAppiah: I would have made them send the n900 in addition!16:13
AppiahSweden16:13
fluxI need to log the device some time to find out what it gives in that situation..16:14
DocScrutinizerit's the perfect term, for a switch that's meant to close. vi__ 's problem aiui is the switch operates (closes) without any reason16:14
Appiahand my note included , Do not send me a n8.16:14
AppiahNow I'm having the store taking care of getting my a new n900 or refunding me16:14
Appiahme*16:14
fluxdocscrutinizer, right, I wasn't referring to that problem, but my problem which is that when I do use the switch, it (apparently) can give two (or more) pulses instead of one16:14
vi__Appiah: the price of a new n8?16:14
vi__/s/n8/n90016:14
vi__/s/n8/n900/16:14
fluxindeed vi's problem cannot be debouncing if the switch is NO16:15
vi__s/n8/n900/16:15
infobotvi__ meant: /s/n900/n900/16:15
chem|stvi__: have you tried an air duster on it yet?16:15
Appiahvi__: that has not been discussed yet16:15
DocScrutinizerflux: that might actually be debounce issue, either hw or in sw16:15
vi__nokias idea of debounce is just poll really slowly16:16
DocScrutinizervi__: if you decide to do sth DIY, then I suggest you first step desolder the switch completely, and see if this problem stops16:16
vi__DocScrutinizer: good point16:17
DocScrutinizervi__: I guess you're right on that one (slow poll)16:17
vi__that would help eliminate a whole raft of possibilities16:17
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DocScrutinizervi__: odds are there's a spring broken in switch and now dangles and randomly shorts the switch. But if you're really cursed with bad luck, it's a defect on some other component - ESD tranzorb comes to mind16:20
vi__anyone selling an broken rx-51 mobo?16:20
vi__DocScrutinizer: the switch appears to be ok mechanically16:21
vi__DocScrutinizer: however it is hard to tell in such a small piece16:21
DocScrutinizervi__: those are too small to tell what's going on inside16:21
DocScrutinizer:-D16:21
DocScrutinizeralso some liquid "dirt" may partially short the switch, just enough to make CPU GPIO trigger threshold trip randomly16:22
vi__'liquid dirt'?16:22
DocScrutinizercoke16:23
vi__lol, i dun do drugs16:23
DocScrutinizerwell, apple juice then16:23
vi__this device has never been subject to 'aqueous repellant' tests16:23
DocScrutinizerjust desolder the critter, or try the warranty path16:24
vi__gonna try warrenty first16:24
DocScrutinizerI suggest you do the second option16:24
DocScrutinizeryeah16:24
vi__although I have found a 'brand new' n90016:24
DocScrutinizernokla N900 ?16:25
vi__still with original screen cover plastic, never been used16:25
vi__yes16:25
DocScrutinizerwith dual sim?16:25
DocScrutinizerand 320*200 screen?16:25
vi__DocScrutinizer: vga camera...16:25
vi__DocScrutinizer: and analogue tv tuner16:26
DocScrutinizer\o/16:26
vi__new, the real deal16:26
nzedual sim would be so wicked actually…16:26
vi__dual sim==half battery16:26
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DocScrutinizerall chinese fake phones use that dual-sim chipset16:26
vi__yup16:26
vi__mtk3xxx chipset16:26
vi__it smokes balls16:27
DocScrutinizersounds about right16:27
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vi__/s/mtk3xxx/mtk5xxx/16:27
vi__/s/mtk3xxx/mtk5xxx16:27
DocScrutinizerhahaha16:27
vi__-_-16:27
DocScrutinizers/a/aha/g16:28
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: hahahahahaha16:28
DocScrutinizer;-D16:28
vi__%s/vi__/failz/g16:29
DocScrutinizer~botsnack16:29
infobotDocScrutinizer: :)16:29
vi__anyway best outcome would be to end up with an N8 (or somthing) and  my broken n900 back16:29
DocScrutinizer~prod vi__16:29
* infobot zaps vi__ with a high voltage cattle prod16:29
vi__that'd be sweeet16:29
luke-jrdual SIM can't share the same radio?16:30
vi__luke-jr: ?16:30
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: In my world it does16:30
luke-jror at least run with only one SIM?16:30
vi__luke-jr: how would that work????16:30
DocScrutinizervi__: time multiplex16:30
vi__ok16:31
vi__AFAIK, MTK chipset uses two radios.16:31
luke-jrfail16:31
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DocScrutinizerbut actually I think it's not the way they implemented it16:31
DocScrutinizervi__: yup16:31
DocScrutinizervi__: stupid16:32
vi__which is why battery life is awful on those chinese handsets16:32
vi__Il wager they are so badly designed they probably don't even disable the 2nd radio if only 1 sim is in use.16:32
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lupine_85vi__, the N900 becomes the property of Nokia16:37
lupine_85however, if you demand it you'll get an N900 back, not an N816:37
lupine_85(if we're talking about under warranty)16:37
vi__I know, I was just wishful thinking16:38
lupine_85if they try to fob you off with an N8 under warranty, refuse it and demand an N90016:38
lupine_85I did exactly this just last week16:39
lupine_85I now have a new N900 of shiny16:39
vi__A brand new N8 would be fine, send it strait to ebay/amazon for £26016:39
lupine_85is it as fine as a new N900, for you?16:40
lupine_85(if you're just after money, if you push them only very slightly they'll give you an E7)16:40
vi__either way, I end up with a new N90016:40
lupine_85E7s sell for more16:40
lupine_85vi__, if you sell the N8/E7 to buy an N900, the N900 probably won't be warrantied16:40
vi__lupine_85: good point, what country are you?16:41
lupine_85which means when it breaks, you're screwed, and you've got all the extra sell/buy hassle to consider16:41
lupine_85UK16:41
lupine_85I have a new N900 with no effort and it still has a 6 month explicit warranty16:41
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TimmyTi've installed nitdroid and multiboot beside maemo, but when i reboot the phone i only see 1 option there for nitdroid and nothing for maemo, how to add a new one for maemo?16:41
lupine_85(of the 2-year european limited warranty they offer)16:41
lupine_85SoGA covers some faults for up to 6 years16:41
vi__well worse scenario is I end up with my broken n900 only16:41
lupine_85...why?16:41
chem|stTimmyT: /topic16:42
lupine_85if you're in warranty, they have a legal obligation to repair, replace or refund16:42
TimmyTchem|st: wat?16:42
vi__lupine_85: agree16:42
lupine_85if they refuse to meet it, -> small claims -> success16:42
TimmyTahah16:42
chem|stTimmyT: read /topic16:42
lupine_85even if -> small claims -> fail, you're still left with nokia's original preferred remedy (N8/E7), minus minimal costs16:42
lupine_85but it really is very clear-cut inside the EU16:43
chem|stTimmyT: or remove the sd card and it boots maemo?16:43
TimmyTlet me try16:43
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vi__lupine_85: I know16:43
lupine_85(apparently, americans lack any kind of consumer protection. poor sods)16:43
vi__lupine_85: if a company is obliged to replace a failed device within the 2 year period, are they allowed to take into account the deppreciation of said device?16:43
chem|stvi__: nope16:44
lupine_85of course not16:44
lupine_85the EU legislation states they have to bring the product back into conformity16:44
chem|stonly insurance companies do and I am not sure if that is legal either16:44
lupine_85they can do that with a repair or by replacing the whole thing or by giving you the cash16:44
vi__so they have to replace my device with somthing of the value that the device was worth at purchase?16:44
lupine_85(all the cash)16:44
lupine_85if they want to replace it, they have to replace it with something that can reasonably be called a replacement16:45
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chem|stvi__: the price you paid16:45
lupine_85retail value is one aspect of that16:45
vi__interesting16:45
lupine_85(the N8 is much cheaper new than an N900, the E7 is about the same price)16:45
lupine_85but features are also of import16:45
vi__what if I purchased the device second hand?16:45
chem|stI would take on with an E7 but never an N816:45
lupine_85if you bought the N900 because it has maemo, a non-maemo device is not a replacement16:45
chem|stthey can send me an n950 if they want16:45
vi__chem|st: yeah right...16:46
lupine_85vi__, you'd need to check whether the warranty transferred16:46
TimmyTchem|st: i did, didn't solve the problem. but before reflashing i've to find its problem and solve that, cause if i install multiboot after reflashing, this problem may be seen again16:46
lupine_85in the UK, SoGA covers second-hand goods, so it just changes who you contact16:46
SpeedEvillupine_85: Commercial second hand sale16:46
chem|stTimmyT: it will be seen again!16:46
lupine_85I *believe* nokia's 2-year limited european warranty is transferrable16:46
vi__SoGA==sale of goods act?16:46
lupine_85I might be wrong there16:46
lupine_85ja16:46
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lupine_85life is easier if you can go solely on the terms of the warranty nokia offer16:46
TimmyTso how to solve it?16:46
lupine_85because then everything is on a single piece of paper that you both agreed to16:47
lupine_85SoGA covers the contract made with the person you bought the phone from16:47
TimmyTi just need a shell access to the root16:47
lupine_85which is different to nokia corporation (who the warranty is with) most of the time16:47
chem|stTimmyT: some of us in here are so fed up with this topic you can call yourself lucky I talk to you about it, go to tmo and look for multiboot I am sure this is documented somewhere16:48
chem|stlupine_85: in some cases the warranty is with the distributor and not the company, in that case you need to go to the shop you bought it from16:49
lupine_85chem|st, I guess it differs from jurisdiction to jurisdiction16:49
lupine_85in my case, my N900 came with a warranty sheet with nokia corp's finland address on it16:50
lupine_85it was nice and clear cut16:50
chem|stlol now you need a jailbreaked iphone to get a SSL security-patch^^16:50
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chem|stlupine_85: that's for nokia I know but you wrote so "in-general" I had to negate16:51
lupine_85good catch then. s/nokia/the company your warranty is with/16:51
chem|stlupine_85: you can have an extended warranty with your retailer too...16:52
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lupine_85sure, but anyone who buys one of those is probably on crack16:52
chem|sts/can/may/16:52
infobotchem|st meant: lupine_85: you may have an extended warranty with your retailer too...16:52
lupine_85at least in the UK16:52
lupine_85I have insurance with my retailer, and SoGA applies to the contract between me and my retailer16:53
jacekowskichem|st: on some stuff it's worth it16:53
lupine_85the only warranty I have is with nokia16:53
jacekowskichem|st: i know somebody who had dell laptop with one of those16:53
chem|stwell 100€ for 5y warranty sounds not that bad does it? the evil thing is they want to sell your soul to some insurance company too...16:53
TimmyThow to mount mmcblk0p2 in the terminal of android?16:53
jacekowskichem|st: she had laptop fixed like 5 times16:53
jacekowskichem|st: after 5th time they gave her £400 voucher to buy new laptop16:53
lupine_85chem|st, I'm already covered against engineering faults for up to 6 years for free16:53
lupine_85insurance covers against accidental damage or theft, as it should16:54
lupine_85what does an extended warranty cover that isn't already covered?16:54
jacekowskilupine_85: 6 years for free?16:54
lupine_85yes. SoGA16:54
jacekowskithat's BS16:54
jacekowskiit's UP to16:54
jacekowskiand reasonable life expectancy16:54
jacekowskiwith mobile phones life expectancy is 3 years tops16:54
lupine_85yes, and reasonable life expectancy of a £500 smart phone is not "2 years"16:54
jacekowskii've seen table somewhere16:54
chem|stlupine_85: read the footnotes, your insurance wont cover outside warranty as you may think it does16:54
jacekowskilupine_85: it's lenght of contract16:55
jacekowskilupine_85: longest contract you can get with given phone16:55
jacekowskilupine_85: and not even day longer16:55
lupine_85chem|st, au contraire, my insurance doesn't cover me *inside* warranty16:55
lupine_85for mechanical faults16:55
chem|stjacekowski: lupine_85 if length of contract it is 12m if not a new contract16:55
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lupine_85it does cover me outside warranty for mechanical faults, and it covers me all the time for theft, loss, accidental damage16:56
jacekowskilongest contract i said16:56
lupine_85jacekowski, you can buy N900s without a contract...16:56
jacekowskilupine_85: so?16:56
chem|stlupine_85: with dayprice of the device16:56
lupine_85so why is the contract the deciding factor on how long the phone hardware is meant to last ?16:56
jacekowskilupine_85: expected lifetime is based on contract lenghts16:56
peterbjornxzwhats a easy way to have the battery charge in fedora16:57
chem|stlupine_85: that's an insurance thing16:57
lupine_85jacekowski, do you have a precedent handy ?16:57
peterbjornxzdoesnt have to be fully functional16:57
jacekowskilupine_85: not here16:57
peterbjornxzaslong at it keeps my device running16:57
jacekowskilupine_85: i have at home16:57
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lupine_85I have http://www.which.co.uk/mobile/advice-and-support/dealing-with-mobile-phone-problems/mobile-phone-returns-and-exchanges/16:58
lupine_85'You have six years to take a claim to court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland'16:58
vi__no scotland???16:58
vi__BAH16:58
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jacekowskilupine_85: that's different thing16:58
lupine_85no, that's SoGA16:58
vi__we don't even have citizens arrest here.16:58
lupine_85talking about mobile phones16:58
chem|stlupine_85: the insurance had full cover of all, what I got was 220€ as a new device would be 390€ and the usage was already close to a year of use...16:59
lupine_85chem|st, so you chose a bad insurance policy16:59
jacekowskilupine_85: no, that's how long you have after it failed16:59
jacekowskilupine_85: so if it fails 1st day you have it, you have 6 years to go to court16:59
lupine_85I'm covered for the full retail value of the phone for accidental damage, loss, theft or - after another 6 months - mechanical faults16:59
jacekowskilupine_85: if it fails after 3+ years you can't do anything16:59
lupine_85jacekowski, no, all you have to show is that it was an inherent fault in the product16:59
lupine_85and something like the N900's dodgy USB port is pretty clear-cut in that regard17:00
lupine_85anyway, neither of us are lawyers and we're probably both still in warranty at the moment17:00
lupine_85if my USB port falls out in a year and a half, we'll be able to do this with some better data17:00
x29aanybody have a clue what the number after "fremantle" states with those versions: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/q/qt-mobility/17:01
x29alike fremantle0-fremantle1317:02
lupine_85vi__, scottish SoGA is predominately the same, but has some variations17:02
lupine_85anyway, hurry up and secede so I can move up there17:02
jacekowskilupine_85: give me a sec17:04
x29aor what "tp" or "0fn" could mean?17:04
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jacekowskilupine_85: http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/wordpress/eu-2-year-guarantee-sales-of-goods-act-gives-us-6-years-to-claim-for-faulty-appliances/17:07
jacekowskione thing17:07
jacekowskibut i'm trying to find specific chapter in soga17:07
lupine_85jacekowski, I'd suggest that if taken into account at all, contract duration would be a minimum, not a maximum, length of time you'd expect your very expensive phone to last17:07
lupine_85'whilst it might be considered reasonable for a fault to develop on a £200 washing machine after 2 years washing for a family of 4 every day it might not be considered reasonable for a washing machine costing £600 to suffer the same.'17:08
lupine_85it's a considered position which I agree with17:08
lupine_85if you're paying £500 for a device, you expect it to last more than peanut time17:08
lupine_85but we won't know what the courts think until someone takes an N900 before them17:08
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lupine_85'There needs to be a fault that was present on the day of sale even though it only became apparent later on' <-- overly-fragile USB socket seems to fit that perfectly, to me17:09
jacekowski14 Implied terms about quality or fitness.17:10
jacekowski(2B)17:10
jacekowskiFor the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—17:10
jacekowski(e)17:10
jacekowskidurability17:10
jacekowski6 years is absolute maximum17:11
SpeedEvilFor white goods, maybe.17:11
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SpeedEvilOh - misread17:11
jacekowskiphones, laptops, electronics have much lower life expectancy17:11
jacekowskicheap electronic17:11
jacekowskiand yes, £500 phone is cheap17:12
lupine_85no, it's towards the top of the price distribution17:13
jacekowskino, it's cheap17:13
lupine_85they start getting more expensive when you add satellite phones and bling17:13
jacekowskifor additional money you don't get longer life expectancy17:13
lupine_85of course you do17:13
jacekowskiyou get more features17:13
lupine_85the washing machine example was provided just so17:13
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jacekowskior brand or whatever17:13
jacekowskiand £500 phone is cheap17:14
jacekowskiwhatever you say17:14
lupine_85I really don't think it is17:14
jacekowskivery cheap17:14
lupine_85do you have a graph handy ?17:14
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jacekowskiall electronics from china is cheap17:14
rlyPhones used to be 3000 euros or so.17:14
lupine_85something showing distribution of phones sold17:14
jacekowskijust because it comes from there17:14
jacekowskirly: exactly17:14
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jacekowskifor 3000 eur you expected bit more17:15
lupine_85phones bought for £500 in 2010 would be close to the top of the graph, I suspect17:15
jacekowskiit doesn't matter17:15
jacekowskieven most expensive consumer phone is still cheap17:15
rlyToday you cannot buy more expensive phones.17:15
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lupine_85now you're taking an exciting long view17:15
rlyBecause nobody is going to setup a manafacturing process for it.17:15
rlymanufacturing*17:15
lupine_85anyway, like I said, we won't know how the SoGA applies until someone tries to apply it17:16
jacekowskilupine_85: if they would have 6 years instead of 3 it would cost 2x as much17:16
rlychem|st: in unrelated news; my GPS works! :)17:16
lupine_85we can make educated guesses, of course, and our educated guesses differ17:16
lupine_85that's perfectly fine by me17:16
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jacekowskilupine_85: it's same thing with industrial stuff17:17
rlyAn industrial computer in a nice box costs about 50000 euros.17:17
jacekowskiwhy normal PLC processor costs £2000 safety rated version costs £500017:18
rlyIt usually comes with some other stuff too.17:18
jacekowskiand it's same thing inside17:18
jacekowskiand it costs only £100 to make one17:18
rlyIt basically depends on the amount of labels put on it.17:18
rlyAnd warranty's for when someone dies, etc.17:18
jacekowskiand costs of replacement after 5 years after processor dies17:18
rlywarranties*17:19
jacekowskithat's how warranty works17:19
SpeedEvillupine_85: Tries to apply it in a lower court, and appeals to a higher one, who clarifies the law - AIUI17:19
jacekowskiyou pay for it17:19
chem|strly: \o/17:19
SpeedEvilThe lower courts don't set precedent.17:19
rlychem|st: are the maps cached on the device, btw?17:19
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SpeedEvilrly: you can download the maps from some site I fotgot for n90017:19
chem|strly: yeah17:20
rlySpeedEvil: so, in principle you don't need Internet for maps then. Nice.17:20
chem|strly: if you talk nokiamaps17:20
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rlychem|st: ovimaps.17:20
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rlychem|st: which is likely what you meant.17:20
chem|strly: you can upload all maps you need via desktop17:20
rlychem|st: are they still kept up to date?17:21
* lupine_85 wonders if there is a legal precedent yet17:21
chem|stsure17:21
lupine_85obviously, not for an N900 - they've not been around long enough17:21
rlyThere are also open-source applications which provides navigation for the n900.17:21
nid0hold on, whats the issue being talked about? replacing a fauly n900 usb fuckup in the uk?17:21
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lupine_85but rather, for other small expensive carryable electronic devices17:21
chem|stbut I use mappero, voice guided navigation with google routing on osm17:21
lupine_85nid0, it's a bit abstract17:21
lupine_85for what it's worth, I use mappero too17:21
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rlyIn what category is that?17:22
rlyI assume I can install that via that HAM thing.17:23
lupine_85not a clue. I tend to use apt17:23
lupine_85it might be called maemo-mapper17:23
chem|strly: navigation17:23
chem|stor location?17:23
rlySo, can you also call via SIP with this device?17:23
chem|strly: SIP jabbertalk amsn-with-video skype-with-video etc17:24
rlychem|st: how does Skype work? Is there an official release?17:25
rlychem|st: (I am a Skype user already)17:25
chem|strly: it is already integrated17:25
vi__rly: skype is built in and made of fail17:25
rlyvi__: made of fail, how so?17:26
chem|stvi__: ^^17:26
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vi__rly: most of the time IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK17:26
vi__GRRRRRRR17:26
chem|strly: it is a bit buggy on video... eats your battery sometimes when loggedin and so on17:26
chem|stvi__: WFM...17:26
rlyvi__: via a desktop PC it does happen to always work here.17:26
vi__rly audio is choppy to the point that it is unuseable17:27
chem|stI barely use it since it is microsoft now...17:27
rlychem|st: do you use any app like that on your phone?17:27
rlychem|st: do you just like call in the normal way all the time?17:27
vi__rly: and now owned by microsoft so only a matter of time before obsolescence17:27
chem|strly: I used to use all of them, but use barely any anywhere anymore (anyany)17:28
rlyvi__: except in corporate zombie land.17:28
vi__rly: wut?17:28
chem|strly: oh SIP is my normal landline at home and I have it logged in whenever I have wifi...17:28
rlyvi__: big companies can exert control over communication setups like that.17:28
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vi__I meant it is only a matter of time before m$ft break backwards compatability with their own product17:29
chem|stvi__: as they do with all products17:29
vi__leaving n900 skype broke and uselss17:29
vi__gah, I dislike m$ft intensely17:29
rlyI dislike that there are 1000 versions of the same type of software.17:30
rlyYou cannot possibly try all of them.17:30
vi__you hate choice?17:30
rlyvi__: I think it can be independently verified how well something works.17:31
chem|strly: jabber meets everything nowadays...17:31
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SpeedEvilhttp://xkcd.com/937/ independant verification17:31
rlyvi__: I would rather have that there is some committee, with people like you that decide these things for me.17:31
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rlyvi__: it has been an established fact that people do not like choice and are pretty bad at doing so.17:32
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vi__I don't get it.  Your pro or con choice?17:33
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jaskayoure giving him a choice, he doesnt want that?:)17:34
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admiral0hi17:34
vi__well if you don't like to choose.  I give you no choice other than to accept the burden of personal choice!17:34
psycho_oreosa committee that decides which things are suitable for end users = what iphone already does.17:34
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psycho_oreostheir epic `walled garden' approach.17:35
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rlyI like freedom of the free market in that if I don't like a particular product, I can pick another one.17:35
rlyI don't like that there is so much choice (basically tons of mediocre products instead of a few good ones).17:36
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rlyWith the iphone applications are blocked which go against Apple interests.17:36
rlySo, that is not independent.17:36
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psycho_oreosbut you do have a _committee_ that _decides_ what you should _have_17:37
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rlySure, but it is not an independent committee.17:37
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rlyIt is more of a theoretical abstraction, I know.17:37
rlyIn the real world no such thing exists.17:37
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psycho_oreosno it doesn't, people have differing opinions to everything. With linux, its somewhat plainly evident that there's always bazillion choices no matter how you look at it.17:39
chem|strly: with maemo put on a smartphone-computer monster, s/o switched on the light at the end of the tunnel, elop made it become a train running all over, now we are stuck again with shit iphone, crap umbrella corp. google and upcoming microshit (not to mention all other phone os'es you do not want to see survive the market change in the next days)17:39
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psycho_oreosand a committee that cannot enforce any ruling/policy is as useful as advisors17:40
rlychem|st: the only reason I bought it was because it was the only product that had no walled garden.17:41
Sicelowow, easy debian can use usb0 connection flawlessly ;)17:41
rlychem|st: it is also a good way to learn the ARM platform.17:41
psycho_oreospeople probably still wouldn't care about what advisors said (as plainly evident as those who enable extras-{testing,devel}, or overclock their device) are abundant.17:41
rlychem|st: and lots of other reinforcing effects.17:41
vi__I just want a linux pocket computer FFS17:41
vi__I has lots of money17:41
vi__PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD17:41
vi__IN ALL THAT IS HOLY17:41
SpeedEvilDefine lots.17:42
vi__SOMONE MAKE A DECENT PRODUCT17:42
rlyvi__: what about the openmoko successor?17:42
SpeedEvilIf it's a few million, ...17:42
vi__ SpeedEvil ...some17:42
vi__openmoko...?17:42
vi__BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAA!17:42
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DocScrutinizerindeed17:43
rlyvi__: is it that terrible?17:43
chem|stSpeedEvil: I would pay 800€ for maemo devices if known to be for good the next gen... but dropping support within 11 month makes it BS raining over me17:43
DocScrutinizerrly: it's still using that shower radio case, no hw kbd, a terrible touchpanel...17:43
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chem|stand to speak of maemo in terms of debian based maemo17:44
vi__some of us only 'upgrade' every few years and save a reasonable sum in the interim17:44
kerioi just want some love by nokia :(17:44
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vi__i want meego to not suck ass so much17:44
keriobut nooooo17:44
kerioi have to buy a w7 phone17:44
DocScrutinizerrly: plus it's designed to be built in the 100s, not in the 100k volumes17:44
kerioelop can choke on a million dicks17:44
vi__I want SOOO much for meego to stop sucking ass.17:44
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SpeedEvilTo make a good device, you either need to invest about $5m in making one device, or $8m in making many thousands.17:45
rlyDocScrutinizer: fpgas can likely power a phone now.17:45
DocScrutinizerdudes, is it Friday and I missed that?17:45
SpeedEvilrly: you're using buzzwords without clue.17:45
vi__rly: easy rly, you are preaching to 3 hardware engineers.17:46
chem|stBULLSHIT BINGO!17:46
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rlySpeedEvil: are they too big?17:46
vi__chem|st: synergy!17:46
vi__chem|st: vertical integration!17:46
kerioi doubt fpgas can hold that much power17:46
DocScrutinizerrly: suck power like mad17:46
keriothe n900 uses peaks of 1A for the radio17:47
chem|stvi__: web 2.017:47
keriofpgas are just not a good battery, imo17:47
vi__chem|st: heh17:47
rlyDocScrutinizer: ok, I don't know the exact constants.17:47
chem|stall those are on my BS bingo sheet!17:47
rlyDocScrutinizer: but computationally, AFAIK, that should be possible.17:47
DocScrutinizer*sigh*17:47
keriorly: computationally, it's also possible with an i717:48
vi__chem|st: proactive customer allignment!17:48
kerioso what17:48
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DocScrutinizertheoretically I can built an i9+ with FPGAs17:48
rlykerio: gps isn't.17:48
keriohuh? why not?17:48
vi__DocScrutinizer: I could build 100 z80 beowolf cluster17:48
SpeedEvilrly: Computationally, sure.17:48
SpeedEvilrly: The issue is that FPGS inherently takes lots more power than customised circuitry designed for one task.17:49
keriochem|st: web scale!17:49
DocScrutinizerexactly17:49
SpeedEvilrly: Make a car from lego.17:49
rlySpeedEvil: how much more are we talking about?17:49
SpeedEvilrly: It can be done.17:49
SpeedEvilrly: But it's not going to perform well.17:49
rlyI think the military uses reconfigurable radio.17:49
SpeedEvilrly: 10-100*, depending on stuff.17:49
vi__rly: easily several orders of magnitude17:49
keriothe fuck am i reading17:49
vi__rly: not to mention the costs are also significantly higher for manufacture17:50
rlyvi__: in large quantities.17:50
DocScrutinizerand *volume*17:50
DocScrutinizerdon't forget chip *volume*17:50
chem|stkerio: field analysis17:50
rlySpeedEvil: ok, I didn't know it was that much.17:50
vi__rly: yes. basically You will NEVER see an FPGA powered phone.  Although there is the GNU FPGA SDR17:51
rlySo, basically only fuel cells might someday make FPGA phones possible.17:51
vi__rly *facepoalm*17:51
keriorly: or maybe some alien technology!17:51
DocScrutinizerthere's obviously not an arbitrary unlimited amount of available real estate on embedded PCB17:51
SpeedEvilPower of chips is also a metric for size of chip.17:51
rlyvi__: I said that before I read your stuff.17:51
rlyvi__: It was not a conclusion based on what you said.17:51
SpeedEvilThe size of the chip rises with inefficiency.17:52
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SpeedEvilCost and chip area are proportional.17:52
SpeedEvilEven neglecting power.17:52
DocScrutinizeraka *volume*17:52
vi__rly: why are you so keen to have an FPGA phone?17:52
psycho_oreosnumber crunching?17:53
kerioreconfigurable opcodes are not that useful imo17:53
DocScrutinizerdefinitely they aren't for a GSM phone17:53
rlyvi__:reconfigurable hardware is extremely 'cool'.17:53
TimmyTis it possible to flash only NOLO bootloader?17:53
psycho_oreosyes17:53
rlyvi__: now, perhaps for phones it is a huge mistake.17:53
TimmyTpsycho_oreos: how?17:54
rlyvi__: I am not a EE person. (I would love to know more about it, though.)17:54
DocScrutinizerthere's exactly this >< much you could do better on a FPGA than on e.g an ARM core17:54
SpeedEvilThat's not quite fair.17:54
TimmyTi've installed multiboot and it has broken my phone and i cant access maemo17:54
psycho_oreosTimmyT, read the topic17:54
SpeedEvilIn principle, with adequate software support, it could be awesome.17:54
SpeedEvilBut - it would basically require a JIT-like compiler.17:55
DocScrutinizerrly: if reconfigurable hw is so extremely cool, then please go and build, AND CONFIGURE it yourself. I think it's a nightmare basically17:55
SpeedEvilAt best.17:55
rlyDocScrutinizer: why is it a nightmware?17:55
vi__TimmyT: re-flash time17:55
rlyDocScrutinizer: the book I read didn't go until 2011 tech.17:55
SpeedEvilFor example - compiler notices you doing a lot of floating point ops, so it reconfigures most of the cache as floating point hardware17:55
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: it is also possible to drill a hole into the CPU. Why would you want to flash NOLO??17:55
SpeedEvilFPGAs have _never_ been power competitive for general purpose computation.17:56
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vi__s/general purpose/*general purpose/g17:56
vi__s/general purpose/*general purpose*/g17:56
vi__/s/general purpose/*general purpose*/g17:56
vi__/s/general purpose/*general purpose*17:57
vi__s/general purpose/*general purpose*17:57
vi__-_-17:57
infobotwhat's up vi___??17:57
TimmyTDocScrutinizer: todaye i've installed multiboot and nitdroid, when i reboot the device i see there is no option for maemo and i cant boot up maemo. i tried as much as i know and possible to add an option for maemo, but it was imposible, so now i want to install NOLO17:57
TimmyTif possible17:58
psycho_oreosI don't think one is able to change other people's comments, even if you got the syntax right. It only matches against what you previously said17:58
vi__lame17:58
psycho_oreoss/lame/win/17:58
psycho_oreossee? :)17:58
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: I suggest you drill a hole into CPU chip. Honestly you can not install NOLO, and you never usually want to reflash NOLO as it never gets changed17:59
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DocScrutinizerTimmyT: please read /topic!17:59
vi__TimmyT: Re-flash RootFS and take it from there17:59
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DocScrutinizerTimmyT: if NOLO was defect, you'd not see *anything* on N900 screen, and no reaction whatsoever on powerup. Then you can reflash NOLO to reset it to factory state. But there's no way you or any app changed NOLO for any reasonable purpose, so you usually don't want to reflash it either18:01
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psycho_oreosLemme guess why he asks that, he didn't bother backing up or reading the various tmo threads on how multiboot can screw up one's setup and now he's desperate18:02
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: for all further multiboot/nitdroid related questions, please join #nitdroid and ask there18:02
vi__TimmyT: basically you f*cked it up and now you have to do a re-flash18:02
vi__TimmyT: sorry bro...18:02
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vi__there is a #nitdroid????18:03
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psycho_oreosironically he did ask his previous questions in the nitdroid channel but not in this particular case18:03
vi__imma gunna gop there and ask how to fix mah meemo.18:03
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: sorry if we sound harsh, but we are *really* fed up with multiboot problems18:03
psycho_oreosthere's even #nitrdoid-help18:03
TimmyTeveryone there are died, i just followed the instructions in their website18:03
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TimmyTDocScrutinizer: so wat can i use instead multiboot?18:04
TimmyTdoes uboot work with nitdroid?18:04
psycho_oreosit pays to understand why certain softwares were available _only_ in extras-{testing,devel} repository.18:04
DocScrutinizerif nitdroid guys were a bit smarter, they'd have managed to get their stuff running with uBoot18:05
psycho_oreosnot without repacking nitdroid's kernel for use with uboot18:05
DocScrutinizerbut I heard it doesn't work, due to nitdroid issues18:05
TimmyTok, so f*ck nitdroid, does maemo work with uboot?18:05
TimmyT:D18:05
DocScrutinizerand multiboot is a really nasty hack that inevitably leads to >>REFLASH NOW PLEASE<<18:06
psycho_oreosand that sounds rather interesting, nitdroid's kernel not willing to work with uboot, oh well18:06
DocScrutinizerand that's what the chan topic is telling you18:06
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psycho_oreosyes maemo can work with uboot or I'm sure all the meego-ce users would be regretting they dualbooted their N900 with meego-ce18:06
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: sure maemo and meego and even SHR work with uBoot18:06
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DocScrutinizerjust friggin nitdroid thinks it's the windows of embedded and can take over the device18:07
TimmyT:D, now lets install meego and SHR :-p18:07
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psycho_oreosand lets not forget to backup one's data, read all the warning labels, do some background research before plunging in only to make mistakes and regretting it18:08
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TimmyTis it possible to make a raw image from rootsh?18:08
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DocScrutinizerTimmyT: (everyone there are died,) ponder why! ;-P18:09
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psycho_oreosraw image from rootsh = no, not without a custom kernel, custom boot command and extensive re-working on various userland tools to get it all working18:10
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: not exactly, but you can use awesome backupmenu app to do raw images18:10
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TimmyTtnx18:10
DocScrutinizerall hail to robbiethe1st18:10
psycho_oreosthe current backupmenu doesn't do raw images, it just creates tarball because raw images doesn't work well with bad PEB afaik18:10
DocScrutinizeryup18:11
DocScrutinizerindeed18:11
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TimmyTi'm recharging the phone to reflash it again,18:11
chem|stgood boy :)18:11
merlin1991I remember a blogpost about going images with fiasco-gen for instantbackuping18:11
merlin1991s/going/doing/18:12
infobotmerlin1991 meant: I remember a blogpost about doing images with fiasco-gen for instantbackuping18:12
psycho_oreosand yes +1 to robbiethe1st. Genuine lifesaver to the rather defunct osso-backup which is only useful if you're in utopian land18:12
TimmyTyou have any idea about installing meego on internal storage?18:12
DocScrutinizerbut you now have a shell in BUM, so you *could* use flash* tools18:12
merlin1991TimmyT: I read that it's actually slower than on sd o_O18:12
chem|stTimmyT: wrong channel18:12
merlin1991TimmyT: #meego-arm might be more helpfull18:12
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: ack18:13
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TimmyTbefore i asked questions there, but kids of this channel were answering there too !18:13
DocScrutinizerTimmyT: try uSD first, then ask e.g. MohammadAG when he's around. He did it18:13
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ack as in acknowledged? :)18:14
DocScrutinizeryup18:14
DocScrutinizerre raw image, shell in BUM:18:15
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# mtd_debug --help18:15
DocScrutinizerusage: mtd_debug info <device>18:15
DocScrutinizer       mtd_debug read <device> <offset> <len> <dest-filename>18:15
DocScrutinizer       mtd_debug write <device> <offset> <len> <source-filename>18:15
DocScrutinizer       mtd_debug erase <device> <offset> <len>18:15
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DocScrutinizerfor NAND18:15
DocScrutinizerfor eMMC things are rather trivial18:16
DocScrutinizeras there's no OOB18:16
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DocScrutinizeri.e. no handling of bad blocks needed18:16
DocScrutinizereMMC controlled does that transparently18:17
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DocScrutinizerdisclaimer: I haven't *checked* if mtd_debug handles bad blocks correctly, just assumed it as otherwise the tool was rather redundant aka useless18:18
psycho_oreosI think that'll add a whole new twist for robbiethe1st if he decides to use that method instead :)18:18
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psycho_oreosafaik when booted up into backupmenu, one has access to limited number of tools and probably stuff coming from mtd-utils will need to be copied over manually18:19
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: alas his USB fell out?18:19
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, yeah I saw that when I was contemplating on posting new odd things I've found with using backupmenu and stock maemo kernel18:20
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: obviously you have access to the very rootfs only. No /opt etc18:20
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DocScrutinizers/ss to/ss to tools on/18:21
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: psycho_oreos: obviously you have access to tools on the very rootfs only. No /opt etc18:21
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, I suspect that whatever tools you have in busybox is whatever you can use in backupmenu's console. I personally cannot verify that but that's what I believe :) I saw a binary tarball inside backupmenu's installation directory.18:22
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ll `which mtd_debug`18:22
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 29 2011-03-06 19:48 /usr/sbin/mtd_debug -> /opt/maemo/usr/sbin/mtd_debug18:22
psycho_oreosI know :) but those needs to be copied over into backupmenu if one wishes to utilise those18:23
DocScrutinizerprolly18:23
DocScrutinizerI leave it up to robbie to figure out the details ;-D18:23
DocScrutinizerI'm happy with my system architect role18:23
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DocScrutinizergiving advice/criticism every now and then18:24
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psycho_oreosand having extensive access to hardware stuff, lucky you :)18:25
DocScrutinizera meego-rescue-initrd with mtdtools and proper support to access all filesystems was a cool complementary pkg to backupmenu then18:25
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DocScrutinizeralmost as cool as a x86 based fiascogen converting those raw images to proper flasher image files18:27
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DocScrutinizertrue one-click full backup&restore in vicinity18:28
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DocScrutinizerself comprised restore, not that internet based reinstaller...18:29
DocScrutinizereven backup and restore kernels18:30
DocScrutinizerand CAL18:30
DocScrutinizer:-D18:30
psycho_oreossomeone on tmo thread created a debian image with some tools for one to fix up their borked setup. That really brings up loads of possible avenues imo, even the idea of potentially having a custom kernel and initrd mounting and chrooting into an image that contains maemo UI with limited functionality and all the power tools the user needs to get their borked setup back on its feet or at least backup their data).18:32
psycho_oreosbah, missing opening brackets18:32
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DocScrutinizererr, debian image? like a chroot?18:34
DocScrutinizeror a true bootimage?18:34
NIN101that was probably me psycho_oreos.18:34
* psycho_oreos goes and does a search18:34
psycho_oreosyour handle does sound familiar though :D18:35
psycho_oreosnot sure on what was what, I just saw that and read a bit about it before moving onto other threads.18:36
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psycho_oreosyes its you :D http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7536918:36
NIN101:-). However, I think debian is kinda overkill for that.18:38
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psycho_oreosthat's what I thought much later.. I started pondering the idea of harnessing matchbox/hildon UI instead and having the entire thing inside a chroot image but not only that have a kernel and/or initrd booting into that chroot setup, and with all the necessary power tools18:39
NIN101hm18:41
PaliHello18:42
DocScrutinizerNIN101: cool stuff!18:42
Palican somebody help me with garage autobuilder errors?18:42
psycho_oreoshi18:42
NIN101thx DocScrutinizer18:42
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psycho_oreosbah not a clue with garage autobuilder18:42
* DocScrutinizer scratches "meego-rescue-initrd with mtd-utils" from todo list18:42
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DocScrutinizerNIN101: I'd love to help with charging18:42
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Paligarage autobuilder cannot find one SDK package18:43
NIN101robbie gave me this DocScrutinizer, do you think this is ok? http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1063391&postcount=9 I have not the slightest clue of the I2C bus tbh :-).18:43
Palisee: https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/kernel-power_2.6.28-10power48/i386.root.log.FAILED.txt18:43
DocScrutinizerNIN101: robbie's stuff is OK, it is origin ShadowJK/me18:44
NIN101I think I'll try that finally this weekend.18:45
PaliX-Fade, are you here?18:46
DocScrutinizerNIN101: ping me if you got any questions regarding charging18:48
NIN101Ok Doc, I will ;). Thx.18:49
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angelox|laptopHi DocScrutinizer!19:08
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DocScrutinizerhi19:17
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: I did call to Nokia,and they said i really need to bring My N900 :(19:25
angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: I did call to Nokia,and they said i really need to bring My N900 :(19:25
angelox|laptopsorry repeated :*(19:25
angelox|laptopif at least i could flash kernel to remove uboot...19:26
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DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: no problem, flashing kernel should be easy, as long as you get some proper 4.0V to battery connectors19:29
antman8969has there been any word on the coding competition voting?19:30
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: That's a problem..19:31
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iluminator101after a kernel update n900 does not auto mount20:46
iluminator101it shows up as nokia and the folder is empty20:47
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ErwinJungekernel update of what? pc or the phone?20:54
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x29aanybody an idea, how i would tell qmake/linker/qtsdk information about mobility libs when its complaining (on deplay): dpkg-shlibdeps: failure: no dependency information found20:56
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rlyHow can I say 'wake up screen' without opening the keyboard?21:21
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x29arly: programmatically?21:21
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x29aor just use the slider on the side?21:21
rlyx29a: just the slider would be fine.21:22
rlyx29a: thx21:22
x29anp21:22
rlyHow can I move a widget to another desktop?21:28
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Mouseydrag?21:28
rlyI tried that, but it just went to another desktop.21:29
Siceloisn't that what you want?21:29
rly(without changing the position of the widget.)21:29
x29awhy not put it where you want it to go?21:29
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rlyx29a: I don't know how.21:31
rlyIt is an Amazon widget.21:31
rlyOk, I get it now.21:32
rlyIt is basically the same as E17 in this.21:32
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rlyOk, I got an 'Internal error' when I minimized some app.21:33
rlyNot good.21:33
mase76maybe badly programmed app.21:34
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rlymase76: it was the Web app ;)21:34
mase76and?21:35
rlymase76: well, I would hope that the sole reason for just a device to exist, would actually work.21:35
mase76who says, that it is well programmed ;)21:35
rlyIt seemed that Opera Mobile is better in some places, though.21:35
rlyHow can I pan the map on Google Maps, btw?21:35
rlyThe 'click' events are not passed in the desktop version, at least.21:36
mase76in microb?21:37
rlyy21:37
mase76tried fenned?21:38
mase76fennec21:38
Siceloyou may have to swipe from left to right, to activate Hover mode... should be able to pan thereafter in MicroB, rly21:38
mase76in microb you can try, moving the stylus from the left edge to the right to get the mousepointer.21:39
mase76Sicelo: that is what i wanted to say :)21:39
Sicelo;)21:39
rlyThans21:40
rlyThanks21:40
mase76called hovermode? did not know.21:40
Siceloyeah, it is21:40
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mase76btw: anybody got firefox sync to work with microb? it installs, starts, but is not configurable.21:45
mase76therfor i use fennec. but it is such slow.21:45
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rlySicelo: I get a mouse pointer under an angle when I do that.21:50
rlySicelo: but in the desktop Google maps GUI you can drag the map.21:50
rlySicelo: but dragging means that I have to release the mouse at some point and then drag.21:51
rlySo, that's not going to work.21:51
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ErwinJungerly: tap on the map once, use the arrow keys21:54
ErwinJungeThat's why I do21:55
ErwinJunges/why/what/21:55
infobotErwinJunge meant: That's what I do21:55
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rlySicelo: I figured it out.21:55
rlyErwinJunge: that also works.21:56
Sicelonice rly21:57
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angelox|laptopDocScrutinizer: I could power on my device and put the battery(bad) to charge :)22:12
angelox|laptopi used one table charger that you call 'alien charger' for 10 minutes,it could boot itself and n900 is now charging22:13
DocScrutinizerfine :-)22:13
angelox|laptopthanks all help! I guess it will charge finely22:13
angelox|laptop'''''' Or explode my n900 '''''''22:13
DocScrutinizerhehehe22:14
angelox|laptophaha22:14
DocScrutinizeranyway, you should be able to flash after battery charged22:15
DocScrutinizerdo a proper backup, reflash completely, then get your fresh battery at Nokia care center22:15
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DocScrutinizerwell, I cal the process alien charging. The charger is sufficiently geeky labeled by "noname charger" or "3rd party charger"22:18
DocScrutinizerbtw alien charging could even be done by Nokia table charger. I use this term just for charging that's not done in original device N90022:19
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angelox|laptopi see...22:20
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SpeedEvilInteresting - I hadn't seen this on phones before - well - this class - motorola phones being sold as 'splashproof' 'water resistant'...22:29
SpeedEvilMotorola Atrix, for example.22:29
ShadowJKSamsung and Nokia have videos demonstrating people diving with phones (in a pool)22:33
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ShadowJKA salesperson at localish consumer electronics part showed me a Samsung phone when I asked to see something rugged, and claimed it can take getting run over by a tractor.22:34
mase76but opening a window when under water is not a good idea.22:34
rlyWhat was the name of the Jabber application again?22:36
rlySearching for jabber in HAM shows no result.22:36
angelox|laptopPidgim?22:36
rlyNo, it was something else.22:37
rlyjabbertalk22:38
rlyI just don't see it when I select 'All' applications.22:38
DocScrutinizermeh, my local phone shop had a phone in shop window, which was actually displayed in a cylinder filled with water and bubbles to make it visible22:38
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DocScrutinizerthis funny stuff sit there for > 1 year22:38
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DocScrutinizerand sure it was a phone dummy, and sure after 6 months you could see the water drops on the inside of the device's display glass22:39
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DocScrutinizerrly: you know about search?22:40
Sicelorly: for jabber i use builtin Conversations22:40
rlyDocScrutinizer: I learned about prefix search 5 minutes ago.22:42
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rlyDocScrutinizer: as for Google search, searching for jabbertalk software points at some Windows mobile software.22:42
DocScrutinizererr, I referred to search in HAM - just select all then type searchstring22:42
rlyAnd jabbering babies...22:42
rlyDocScrutinizer: yes, I did that.22:42
rlyDocScrutinizer: that is what I mean tby prefix searching.22:42
rlyDocScrutinizer: or does it infix searching?22:43
DocScrutinizeraah22:43
rlyI did not actually verify that.22:43
rlyDocScrutinizer: just 'talk' only shows eSpeakTime.22:43
rlyDocScrutinizer: jabber shows nothing.22:44
DocScrutinizerstrange22:46
DocScrutinizernever did that search22:46
DocScrutinizerbut I'd think it should find jabber22:46
rlyDocScrutinizer: on maemo.org I also cannot find it.22:46
rlyDocScrutinizer: can you show some proof that it exists at all? :P22:47
Sicelowhat about apt-cache search jabber22:47
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: do you think NOLO could get patched to have a higher Vbat(boot) threshold - i.e. do charging in NOLO (assuming it does at all, which is the case afaik) up to maybe 3.8V instead the 3.6V it's probably now22:48
Sicelorly, on mine it shows mcabber, qutIM,22:48
DocScrutinizerrly: only >><Sicelo> rly: for jabber i use builtin Conversations22:49
rlySicelo: it shows some, but not that one.22:49
rlySicelo: e.g. telepath-salut22:49
rlytelepathy-salut*22:50
rlySicelo: likely you just have some extra repository.22:50
Sicelothen it's a repo  issue,22:50
RzR950talking about jabber ?22:50
rlyRzR950: yes22:50
Siceloyeah, i'm not afraid to flash anytime :P22:50
RzR950how are you using jabber on harmattan ?22:51
Sicelobut Conversations seems good enough rly22:51
RzR950I was thinking about using bitlbee + i-chatter22:51
RzR950irc-chatter22:51
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rlySicelo: or .. Emacs O.O22:51
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rlyCan I also sync my Imap mail so I can read it offline?22:54
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rlyIt seems that it only cached whatever I had read.22:54
Sicelowiki has some info on that, forgot the link22:54
Sicelofrom my bookmarks, not sure if that's the one, http://wiki.maemo.org/Improving_Modest_email_sync_reliability22:56
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peterbjornxzto what class of SD card does the eMMC compare23:59
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flailingmonkeySD card class is not a very complete measure23:59
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