IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-08-07

*** TheXception has joined #maemo		00:00
*** croppa has joined #maemo		00:00
*** gena2x has quit IRC		00:00
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		00:01
*** sid_ has quit IRC		00:05
*** jhb has joined #maemo		00:10
*** Pavel has quit IRC		00:11
*** Pavel has joined #maemo		00:14
*** mase76 has joined #maemo		00:14
DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: any fast Vbat AD already?	00:15
*** mase76 has quit IRC		00:17
*** jhb has quit IRC		00:24
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		00:24
*** nmjnb has quit IRC		00:25
sevard	valdyn_ cehteh I'm looking for a phone with a _real_ gps chip. Apparently a-gps will only work with a mobile data connection and the phone I'm looking for needs to 1) have a real gps chip 2) cheap 3) run endomondo 4) have no mobile subscription	00:26
cehteh	sevard: any agps can work in gps only mode, but some do that rather poorly	00:27
cehteh	what kind of application, why dont you use an external usb or bluetooth gps dongle, these are cheap	00:27
jacekowski	sevard: no	00:27
sevard	it looks like the sirf III chips do it very well	00:27
jacekowski	sevard: it will work without mobile data	00:28
jacekowski	sevard: these are same chips	00:28
sevard	cehteh: I'm looking for a means to track several runners via gps	00:28
cehteh	sirf iii wont be in cell phone	00:28
jacekowski	sevard: + they have agps capability	00:28
sevard	jacekowski: but from what I read a-gps only works with a mobile subscriptoin	00:28
jacekowski	sevard: yes	00:28
*** sid__ has quit IRC		00:28
jacekowski	sevard: but these chips are fully functional standalone gps chips	00:28
jacekowski	sevard: that can work in assisted mode	00:28
cehteh	agps is only software .. but you can make the receivers used for agps cheaper, substitute that by software	00:28
sevard	My ultimate goal was to find a phone that works very well without a mobile subscription and give it to several runners to help us track our runs	00:29
javispedro	buy a handheld gps	00:29
cehteh	sirf 3 is good but not cheap and iirc no cell phone uses that	00:29
jacekowski	sevard: only thing is that with phones you have smaller antennas	00:29
tank-man	are you runners going to be making phone calls?	00:29
tank-man	youre	00:29
sevard	tank-man: no	00:29
jacekowski	sevard: and signal that gets to the gps chip is much weaker	00:29
sevard	http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=GB5mpZJt	00:29
cehteh	often gps is integrated in the broadband chipset	00:29
jacekowski	sevard: so it's harder for that chip to get a lock	00:29
sevard	these are all of the phones that support endomondo, but if i could find a phone that already tracks gps coordinates with time stamps and outputs in gpx that would suffice	00:30
jacekowski	sevard: because without assist it means it has to recieve clear signal for few minutes	00:30
DocScrutinizer	yay	00:30
sevard	jacekowski: i understand that	00:30
cehteh	sevard: whats that list?	00:30
cehteh	ah	00:30
DocScrutinizer	~gsm-agps	00:30
infobot	i heard rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP	00:30
sevard	I've been looking through all the nokias on tha tlist and they seem, so far, to only support agps	00:30
jacekowski	sevard: if you get any phone, remove sim from it and disable gsm	00:30
tank-man	sevard, http://www.qstarz.com/Products/GPS%20Products/BT-Q1000.html	00:31
jacekowski	sevard: it's only addon	00:31
cehteh	what is endomondo?	00:31
jacekowski	sevard: it's fully standalone gps	00:31
jacekowski	sevard: with assist capabilities	00:31
*** rd has quit IRC		00:31
cehteh	can you run the software somewhere else?	00:31
sevard	cehteh: endomondo is a gps tracking applicatoin	00:31
DocScrutinizer	sevard: a gps in GSM will allways be agps	00:31
cehteh	hey there are thousands track logging apps	00:31
DocScrutinizer	see ~gsm-agps	00:31
cehteh	why do you need that?	00:31
jacekowski	sevard: you get any of these and leave it with clear sky and with disabled gsm	00:31
jacekowski	sevard: and it will get lock after 10-20 minutes	00:31
DocScrutinizer	and every agps also works without "a"	00:32
cehteh	there are usb gps dongles you can just drop in your backpack logging stuff and later you analyze the data	00:32
cehteh	why do you need this special app?	00:32
sevard	jacekowski: 10-20 minutes is unreasonable for my applicaton... the garmin in my car doesn't have a-gps and gets a signal lock in under 60 seconds	00:32
cehteh	not when cold booting	00:32
jacekowski	sevard: because it remembers positions	00:32
cehteh	but yes devices with agps often dont put much effort into unassissted locks	00:33
sevard	cehteh: I don't, if I found another platform that has a fast gps chip and software that outputs into GPX format that I could get over usb or bluetooth that would suffice.	00:33
DocScrutinizer	sevard: please don't first do the conclusions and then ask for transforming them to a real thing. This never works, esp when you got no clear idea about the topic	00:33
jacekowski	sevard: and these devices have much better antennas than you can ever put in phone	00:33
DocScrutinizer	sevard: explain your needs and ask for solutions!	00:33
jacekowski	sevard: and the way it works is almost like assisted gps	00:33
tank-man	sevard, i just pasted a link to such a device	00:34
sevard	DocScrutinizer: ... thanks for the advice.	00:34
cehteh	any gps is slow at cold boot, thats a design constraint	00:34
sevard	tank-man: I'm readin gup on it	00:34
jacekowski	sevard: but instead of using frech data from internet, it's using data that it recieved recently	00:34
jacekowski	sevard: if you switch it off and move it 200 miles away, it will take probably around 10 minutes to lock	00:34
tank-man	the one i linked to has the following stats: Cold start 36s, Warm start 33s,Hot start 1s	00:34
cehteh	no, not even the most expensive gps can do a fast unassisted cold startup	00:34
cehteh	tank-man: 36sec is iirc impossible	00:35
sevard	tank-man: The price point point is about 3x too much for me :(	00:35
tank-man	no it is not	00:35
jacekowski	tank-man: it is impossible	00:35
jacekowski	tank-man: cold start means that almanac is unknown	00:35
tank-man	how is it 3x more expensive than a smart phone?	00:35
cehteh	the sideband which is used to transmit the data is slower	00:36
jacekowski	tank-man: and it takes 10minutes+ to transmit alamac	00:36
jacekowski	almanac*	00:36
*** piggz has quit IRC		00:36
tank-man	jacekowski, i used this device with my nokia n800	00:36
cehteh	under perfect conditions	00:36
cehteh	tank-man: then it wasnt cold	00:36
jacekowski	tank-man: then it already knew alamanac	00:36
cehteh	it had some almanac stored and interpolated that	00:36
jacekowski	tank-man: lot of devices have preprogrammed alamac in them	00:36
tank-man	and it also can be used as a standalone device that logs info	00:36
jacekowski	tank-man: because it doesn't change	00:37
tank-man	i only quoted the info from the sites web page and its about the same as my experience with the device	00:37
jacekowski	well it changes but once you recieve it it's good for half a year	00:37
jacekowski	tank-man: that's marketing bs	00:37
sevard	hm	00:37
jacekowski	tank-man: you can't lock in less than 1s	00:38
jacekowski	tank-man: because you can't sync clock that fast	00:38
javispedro	a hot start in 1s is possible	00:39
tank-man	i dont know what 'hot start' is , but in my experience with the device, once i turn it on, in about 30 sec it has my gps position	00:39
cehteh	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Message_format	00:39
sevard	MTK GPS Module	00:39
javispedro	but it's evil from the manufacturer to quote that as their hot start time.	00:39
javispedro	because you won't see it much in RL.	00:39
cehteh	sevard: there are gps track-logger dongles for as cheap as 20-30 eur	00:39
cehteh	usb, small battery which last about a day and enough memory to track that day	00:40
sevard	cehteh: I haven't found a cheap one, i've been looking, 30 eur is like 70 usd, i was hoping for something aroun 30usd so i could buy 5 or 6 of them and gift them. that's why i was looking at old phones	00:41
jacekowski	sevard: then you can use phones	00:41
cehteh	huh is the $ dropped that much?	00:41
jacekowski	sevard: but it will take ages to lock	00:41
javispedro	but don't complain when they take 30 minutes to get a lock :)	00:41
sevard	jacekowski: that's why i was looking for something that didn't rely on a-gps	00:41
cehteh	i caclulate usually 1Eur == 1Dollar when electronic gadgets are involved :P	00:41
jacekowski	sevard: it's not relying on agps	00:41
sevard	and that's why i came here	00:41
jacekowski	sevard: agps is just an ADDON	00:42
jacekowski	sevard: it's fully standalone device	00:42
sevard	jacekowski: these nokia devices say they ONLY work with a-gps and not "integrated gps"	00:42
jacekowski	sevard: even your garmin can do agps	00:42
jacekowski	sevard: where does it say so	00:42
sevard	all of these documents say a-gps requires a cellular data connection	00:42
jacekowski	sevard: yes	00:42
jacekowski	sevard: AGPS	00:42
javispedro	"AGPS requires a cellullar data connection" is a true statement.	00:42
sevard	but my garmin doesn't have a cellular subscription	00:43
jacekowski	sevard: but it can do normal gps	00:43
jacekowski	sevard: but it can do agps	00:43
javispedro	oh.	00:43
jacekowski	sevard: you connect phone to it over bt	00:43
javispedro	"AGPS requires a data connection" :)	00:43
jacekowski	sevard: and it will do agps	00:43
cehteh	http://www.google.com/search?q=gps+dongle	00:43
jacekowski	sevard: or you can do almost like agps by connecting it to computer and you can get agps data over the interwebs to the device	00:43
jacekowski	it's called QuickFix in tomtom	00:44
Sicelo	GNSS is standalone gps :)	00:44
jacekowski	and it's downloading week worth of agps data using computer to store it on device	00:44
tank-man	android tablets can do that too (get quicker fix over internet)	00:44
jacekowski	tank-man: everything can do that	00:44
jacekowski	tank-man: but sevard thinks that if device can do that then it can't do normal fixes	00:45
jacekowski	sevard: agps means that instead of pulling alamanac and ephemeris data from satelite it can get it from internet	00:46
jacekowski	sevard: but it can still get it from satelite	00:47
tank-man	cheaper to have checkpoints for those runners and log that info manually :) haha	00:47
*** Omegamoon has joined #maemo		00:47
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		00:47
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		00:47
jacekowski	sevard: but because agps is mostly used in devices like mobile phones, which because of space limitations don't have very good antennas, and therefore it's harder for them to recieve clear signal for 20 minutes required to get all data from cold start	00:48
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		00:48
jacekowski	sevard: well, even minute of clear signal required for cold start is a problem very often in devices like that	00:48
cehteh	.. and on the other side, many agps enabled devices fail to store and interpolate the data for later reuse :/	00:49
jacekowski	cehteh: i don't think any device stores more than alamac data	00:49
jacekowski	not even normal gps recievers	00:49
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: ot yet, though I think I understan how I'm going to do it	00:50
cehteh	well the point is for how long you consider them valid and maybe interpolate them some later time	00:50
jacekowski	well, ephemeris is only valid for hour	00:50
jacekowski	so it's useless	00:50
jacekowski	only data that can be reused is almanac data	00:51
cehteh	integrate/callibrate with signals you already receive .. if for example you have only 1 lock you can used that to syncronize time and interpolate almanac	00:51
cehteh	ephemeris is valid for 2-4 hours .. but better have some invalid ephemeris than none at all	00:51
jacekowski	you can't interpolate almanac	00:51
jacekowski	satellites are fully independen	00:52
SpeedEvil	All sats broadcast the almanac.	00:52
jacekowski	and invalid ephemeris is as good as none	00:52
SpeedEvil	As I understood it.	00:52
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: yes	00:52
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: it still takes 10+ minutes to recieve it	00:53
SpeedEvil	I never worked out if they all broadcast it in synchrony, or not.	00:53
jacekowski	and if there is any error in transmission	00:53
jacekowski	like tunnel	00:53
jacekowski	or a tree	00:53
jacekowski	or it was covered for a second	00:53
*** robbiethe1st has joined #maemo		00:53
SpeedEvil	If they don't, you can put it togetehr from multiple sources	00:53
jacekowski	whole of the almanac is useless	00:53
cehteh	its all about software stitching this together ..	00:54
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: well, i don't think gps recievers recieve on all frequencies at the same time	00:54
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: yes they do.	00:54
SpeedEvil	Modern ones at least.	00:54
cehteh	thats my point in agps phones the usually dont put that much efforts into this software	00:54
SpeedEvil	Where modern is >1995	00:54
jacekowski	cehteh: and you would have to know which parts are you recieving	00:54
DocScrutinizer	they don't send sync	00:54
SpeedEvil	cehteh: you do.	00:54
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: are you sure theey don't just do frequency hoping?	00:54
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: very	00:55
cehteh	nope	00:55
DocScrutinizer	and each sat sends his own current data about own pos in as little as 15s	00:55
*** c2p has quit IRC		00:55
SpeedEvil	I've actually got part way through a GPS reciever design.	00:55
cehteh	well i am off	00:55
SpeedEvil	The current time is sent by each sat every 6s.	00:55
SpeedEvil	You can actually generate a position off this.	00:55
jacekowski	yeah, so 6s is minumum time to get lock	00:55
ShadowJK	I thought GPS satellites all transmitted on a single frequency (well, one single frequency that civilians can use)	00:55
SpeedEvil	It's less than 6s if you employ hax.	00:56
SpeedEvil	ShadowJK: they sort-of-do, but not.	00:56
jacekowski	like having local atomic clock	00:56
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: even that's not correct (whole alm useless), you can fill in missing chunks from next pass	00:56
SpeedEvil	They use maths trickery so that tehy all appear to be transmitting independantly.	00:56
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: yeah, but for calculations it's useless	00:56
SpeedEvil	When you are looking for one satellite, the others appear as noise.	00:56
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: therefore you have to wait for other almanac to be transmitted	00:57
SpeedEvil	http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html	00:57
SpeedEvil	best introductory text I've found.	00:57
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: it's like cdma	00:57
jacekowski	gps in principle isn't very complicated	00:57
SpeedEvil	It's exactly CDMA	00:57
DocScrutinizer	wcdma	00:57
jacekowski	you have satellites that send their time	00:57
jacekowski	you measure difference between these times and calculate distances based on that	00:58
jacekowski	but because satellites have to move	00:59
jacekowski	that makes whole thing move	00:59
jacekowski	so you have to calculate distance to satellite, and position of that satellite	00:59
ShadowJK	and also earth moves, and also earth's gravity curves space?	00:59
DocScrutinizer	yes, so what?	01:00
jacekowski	well, i think more error is caused by instabilities in cheap gps chips clock	01:00
jacekowski	than by earth's gravity	01:00
javispedro	hah.	01:00
DocScrutinizer	that's why you need alm and ephem for exact fix	01:00
* ShadowJK thought atmosphere was a big factor		01:00
DocScrutinizer	exactly	01:01
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: Error in the clock is not significant, though that is why you need 3 sats for a 2d position.	01:01
DocScrutinizer	exactly	01:01
SpeedEvil	Ionosphere causes several-may meter errros	01:01
SpeedEvil	many	01:01
DocScrutinizer	that's also what dgps is all about	01:02
jacekowski	star navigation ftw	01:02
DocScrutinizer	while often people think agps would cope with these things	01:02
SpeedEvil	I'm pondering that for n950/n9	01:02
SpeedEvil	(star navigation)	01:02
DocScrutinizer	for sun and mon it may work	01:03
DocScrutinizer	moon	01:03
SpeedEvil	You can add to the position knowledge a bit by using the always open main camera to snap the sun/moon/planet positions.	01:03
jacekowski	i can give you accurateish position using sextant faster than gps starting from cold	01:03
DocScrutinizer	doubt it will catch planets	01:03
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: Planets are as bright as the moon - if you can focus them. They're just smaller.	01:03
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: stacking	01:03
SpeedEvil	Stars are - generally harder.	01:03
DocScrutinizer	hmm ok	01:03
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: it's about distance as well	01:04
jacekowski	but stacking could possibly work	01:04
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: If you can resolve the disk, then they are as bright.	01:04
SpeedEvil	Resolving the disk is impossible for some.	01:04
javispedro	so you turn on a bright light and suddently the error is increased to kilometers? :)	01:04
* SpeedEvil drops a kalman filter on javispedro.		01:05
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		01:13
DocScrutinizer	hi javispedro btw	01:15
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		01:15
*** sid_ has quit IRC		01:17
DocScrutinizer	btw if any of you wants to know details about how gps works . the best link ever, courtesy SpeedEvil: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html	01:18
*** lardman has quit IRC		01:19
*** casketizer has quit IRC		01:20
*** casketizer has joined #maemo		01:21
jonne	what does maemo use for scheduling? i tried looking for cron, but it seems to not have this	01:23
jonne	or do i just need to create the directory /var/spool/cron/crontabs ?	01:24
*** jrocha has joined #maemo		01:25
NIN101	jonne: take a look at "alarmed"	01:26
*** BCMM has quit IRC		01:26
javispedro	hi DocScrutinizer	01:26
jonne	crontab -e works if i create the folders, but it uses vi	01:28
jonne	:/	01:28
jonne	will finally need to learn that then	01:28
jonne	alarmed looks easier, thanks	01:28
jonne	will try that	01:29
jonne	i just need something to run the script that clears old map tiles from my phone	01:29
luke-jr	jonne: set EDITOR	01:29
luke-jr	export EDITOR=nano	01:30
luke-jr	or whatever	01:30
*** c2p has joined #maemo		01:32
*** FireFly has quit IRC		01:33
jjo	learning vi sound like a way better idea than exporting EDITOR. it might even come in handy later.	01:40
*** swc\|666 has quit IRC		01:41
*** ketas has joined #maemo		01:43
jonne	i think i set cron correctly, now i'll just have to make sure it actually is	01:43
*** cehteh has quit IRC		01:45
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		01:46
DocScrutinizer	jonne: alarmed has a GUI as well as a crontab alike cmdline interface	01:48
jonne	i think everything's set correctly, and i've modified the script so it touches a file so i know when it was last run	01:49
* DocScrutinizer likes the cmdline feature ;-D (and the fact it got implemented the way he suggested)		01:49
jonne	yeah, but why install an extra app if the standard unix stuff can do it?	01:50
DocScrutinizer	because cron just doesn't really work	01:50
jonne	btw, can you send notifications from script?	01:50
jonne	wait, it doesn't?	01:51
DocScrutinizer	cron isn't built for a system that has zeroclock	01:51
DocScrutinizer	while alarmed even powers up your device when an alarm expires	01:51
jonne	i don't need this	01:52
jonne	i just want it to stop mappero from filling up my disk with tiles i'll only use once	01:52
*** Evanescence has joined #maemo		01:52
jonne	so i just delete all tiles that are older than a year	01:52
DocScrutinizer	well, you probably want the fact though that alarmd daemon doesn't hog battery, while cron doesn't care about the embedded idiosyncrasies of N900	01:52
jonne	but doesn't cron run anyway?	01:53
DocScrutinizer	no	01:53
DocScrutinizer	deginitely not	01:53
jonne	hmm	01:53
DocScrutinizer	def*	01:53
jonne	i'll switch to alarmed then	01:53
DocScrutinizer	alarmd daemon runs anyway	01:53
*** Omegamoon has left #maemo		01:53
DocScrutinizer	and alarmed is a frontend for alarmd like crontab cmd is a frontend to crond	01:54
*** b-man` has joined #maemo		01:54
jonne	oh, ok	01:54
*** OkropNick has quit IRC		01:55
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		01:55
*** sid__ has quit IRC		01:58
*** rcg has quit IRC		01:59
DocScrutinizer	I actually suggested to create a crontab cmd that uses alarmed as backend, and to teach alarmed to use classical crontab files	01:59
DocScrutinizer	alas it didn't happen	01:59
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		02:00
DocScrutinizer	there's another pkg called fcron iirc, but also iirc it has quite a number of issues. I honestly recommend using alarmed for all purposes where you usually would think about editing crontab files	02:01
jonne	ok, i've set it up	02:02
DocScrutinizer	you should like it	02:02
DocScrutinizer	if you don't, please tell Shapeshifter and me why :-)	02:02
jonne	umm, how does one remove an event?	02:03
jonne	i edited an event, and now i have 2 identical ones at different times	02:05
jonne	and now it won't let me delete the old one	02:05
DocScrutinizer	err, I think there's a delete button in gui, and a --help option on shell cmdline. Only think I think is missing is a symlink:	02:06
DocScrutinizer	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 2011-06-20 15:53 /usr/bin/alarmed -> /opt/alarmed/alarmed.py	02:06
jonne	wait, they got deleted, the gui just didn't update	02:06
DocScrutinizer	hmm, that's clearly a bug then. Pester shapeshifter about it please	02:06
DocScrutinizer	s/only think/only thing/	02:07
jonne	i'll see if i can do it again	02:07
*** lofty306 has quit IRC		02:09
*** dos1 has quit IRC		02:11
*** dos11 has joined #maemo		02:11
jonne	does Shapeshifter prefer proper bug reports or should i just whine about bugs on irc?	02:13
DocScrutinizer	try pinging him here, I dunno if he will prefer bug reports ;-)	02:17
DocScrutinizer	err, bugtracker tickets	02:18
DocScrutinizer	possibly not the best time to catch him right now	02:18
DocScrutinizer	~seen Shapeshifter	02:18
infobot	shapeshifter is currently on #maemo (3d 9h 6m 17s) #meego (3d 9h 6m 17s). Has said a total of 62 messages. Is idling for 4h 56m 17s, last said: 'they'll add tv and a phone for just 10 more but I never use that stuff'.	02:19
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: ping	02:20
DocScrutinizer	jonne: TZ Europe ;-D	02:21
jonne	I'm in Europe too, it's only 1am :p	02:22
DocScrutinizer	yeah, but maybe Shapeshifter is a lark rather than an owl	02:23
*** jrocha has quit IRC		02:23
DocScrutinizer	almost 1:30... meh, time for pub ;-D	02:24
jonne	i pmed him,, he can look at it whenever he wants	02:26
jonne	should be straightforward to reproduce	02:26
DocScrutinizer	mention the version (aka the origin repo and time of install), as it seems he needs that. I think I mentioned that bug to him like 18 months ago, but I wasn't able to provide that info	02:27
jonne	done	02:29
DocScrutinizer	for the uebercool -z option >> -z 'DATE', --date='DATE' Set the date using coreutils date syntax, for example 'now +5 minutes'	02:33
DocScrutinizer	you need to install coreutils, otherwise it doesn't work iirc	02:33
DocScrutinizer	messybox "don't need this" policy, you know	02:34
*** antman8969 has joined #maemo		02:36
*** LarsN has quit IRC		02:37
*** ingoldey has quit IRC		02:37
*** NIN102 has joined #maemo		02:41
*** NIN102 has quit IRC		02:44
*** NIN101 has quit IRC		02:44
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo		02:44
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		02:48
*** jiero has joined #maemo		02:49
*** sid_ has quit IRC		02:52
*** visz has joined #maemo		02:54
*** robbiethe1st has quit IRC		02:57
*** Evanescence has quit IRC		03:01
*** nox- has quit IRC		03:02
*** wicket64 has quit IRC		03:04
javispedro	oh my goodness.	03:06
DocScrutinizer	?	03:06
javispedro	there's a guy in the n950 waiting list who has done a 8086->arm static recompiler that is enough to run at least one game	03:06
DocScrutinizer	came to offer some smalltalk before I die from boredom?	03:06
javispedro	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7UidW2tMtQ	03:06
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: yes	03:06
DocScrutinizer	incredible	03:07
DocScrutinizer	recompiler as in take x86 binary, cook in sulfuric acid with garlic, get working arm binary that may run on maemo??	03:08
javispedro	that's my understanding of it.	03:08
DocScrutinizer	dang	03:08
javispedro	the rather large con is that it'll probably have very limited compatibility	03:09
javispedro	but I always wondered why nobody tried it.	03:09
*** b-man` has quit IRC		03:10
DocScrutinizer	4 years old	03:11
DocScrutinizer	last thing I didn't really follow, on #harmattan, was they run native x86 binaries	03:13
javispedro	?	03:13
DocScrutinizer	yeah, same here	03:14
javispedro	there's a guy around who runs qemu-user x86 in the n900	03:14
javispedro	and n950	03:14
javispedro	but that is plain emulation	03:14
DocScrutinizer	yeah, might been it	03:14
javispedro	static recompilation is where the money is today =)	03:14
javispedro	(obviously not :) )	03:14
javispedro	but I'd like to try, I was trying to google if he published this stuff somewhere.	03:15
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: seen my comment about that FMRX mode register? I think it might need some initialization	03:17
javispedro	not yet	03:17
DocScrutinizer	err, posted the comment like 2 weeks ago	03:17
javispedro	uh, in the thread?	03:17
DocScrutinizer	sure	03:17
javispedro	stupid vbulletin didn't send me mail, then.	03:17
DocScrutinizer	not unusual	03:18
javispedro	ah	03:18
javispedro	seems that it is you who didn' read my comment :)	03:18
DocScrutinizer	when FMC says "no further mail will get sent until you visit..." they actually mean it	03:18
javispedro	http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=3902	03:18
javispedro	what do you think?	03:23
javispedro	I wish I had the ds	03:23
DocScrutinizer	master looks fishy, maybe	03:23
*** Gizmokid2005 has quit IRC		03:23
DocScrutinizer	I'd actually expect SoC wants to be master	03:24
DocScrutinizer	which also would explain the stalled data transmission aka missing clock pretty much	03:24
javispedro	sadly, seemingly no wait to change that from userspace	03:25
javispedro	*way	03:25
javispedro	oh man, the founder of gentoo "just got a touchpad" =)	03:26
DocScrutinizer	err, no way to change? how that? I thought there was some cmd in v4l2* to change that?	03:28
javispedro	you can change some parts of the bitfield	03:28
javispedro	rate, width	03:29
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: at very least you could check what mode the SoC (twl5031?) ISS is in, as I gather it's the same IF that's used for e.g BT headsets	03:29
*** Gizmokid2005 has joined #maemo		03:32
DocScrutinizer	which btw is a debatable design, regarding ALSA. I'd feel better with dedicated mutually exclusive audiocards for BT A2DP, BT SCO, FMRX...	03:32
javispedro	such is life...	03:32
javispedro	no idea how to check that so far.. :P	03:32
DocScrutinizer	and each of those "audio cards" initializes the mode register and other stuff accordingly on pcm_open()	03:33
*** deimos has quit IRC		03:33
javispedro	yeah, sounds more reasonable	03:34
DocScrutinizer	how to check: well, probably find what's the audio card used for BT, then see what the source does. EEEW that's prolly PA again, not BT	03:34
DocScrutinizer	s/BT/ALSA/	03:34
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: how to check: well, probably find what's the audio card used for ALSA, then see what the source does. EEEW that's prolly PA again, not BT	03:34
DocScrutinizer	grr, not this one, the other one	03:35
*** Evanescence has joined #maemo		03:35
DocScrutinizer	isn't this bluez stuff built on PA?	03:35
javispedro	I did not study how BT audio works in Harmattan yet	03:36
javispedro	in fact, I've not even tested it yet.	03:36
DocScrutinizer	never looked into it, don't even know if it's bluez that gets used for harm	03:36
javispedro	yeah	03:36
javispedro	It's bluez.	03:36
*** kW_ has joined #maemo		03:38
DocScrutinizer	definitely I think that's the same McBSP3 IF	03:38
DocScrutinizer	BT_PCM(3:0)	03:39
DocScrutinizer	BTFM >	03:39
DocScrutinizer	BTFM module	03:39
DocScrutinizer	p.2 schem	03:39
DocScrutinizer	dang SPI4 directly above ->WLAN	03:40
javispedro	n900 schem?	03:40
DocScrutinizer	FM_INT :-o	03:40
DocScrutinizer	yoh	03:40
DocScrutinizer	FM_INT !!!!	03:41
jiero	N9 australia preorder price $645 :D going to try convince other for it	03:41
*** lxp has quit IRC		03:41
SpeedEvil	jiero: You can order now?	03:41
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: lol, but then again n900 fmrx is quite different	03:41
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: nevermind, my brain went on holiday	03:42
*** lxp has joined #maemo		03:42
jiero	SpeedEvil: http://www.smoothmobiles.com.au/nokia-n9-16gb.html?SID=qkvhe7ddbap1j7m05mdlu1cd95	03:42
SpeedEvil	jiero: Neat.	03:42
*** Suiseiseki has quit IRC		03:42
SpeedEvil	Isn't FM_INT for RDS	03:42
* SpeedEvil hasn't poked that bit		03:42
DocScrutinizer	quite possible, SpeedEvil	03:43
SpeedEvil	jiero: I assume you know the SD card option is bogus?	03:43
DocScrutinizer	anyway I just was completely erratic	03:43
SpeedEvil	I thought the n9 was 32, not 16.	03:43
SpeedEvil	G	03:43
javispedro	n9 is either 16 or 64G	03:43
SpeedEvil	Ah.	03:43
javispedro	$645?	03:44
javispedro	pssh.	03:44
SpeedEvil	412 pounds	03:45
SpeedEvil	Wasn't the n900 499 at launch?	03:45
DocScrutinizer	7 day piece of mind guarantee -- COOL	03:45
javispedro	aw yes, seems that the dollar is falling quicklier than I thought.	03:45
* DocScrutinizer wonders what to do with the mind piece		03:46
SpeedEvil	Leather tanning.	03:46
javispedro	I think SpeedEvil is right and FM_INT is for RDS:	03:47
javispedro	s/:/./	03:47
infobot	javispedro meant: I think SpeedEvil is right and FM_INT is for RDS.	03:47
*** Suiseiseki has joined #maemo		03:48
DocScrutinizer	speakerphone: no - LOL	03:50
*** kW_ has quit IRC		03:51
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: javispedro: (FM_INT) wild guess: signal getting weak, request to tune "me" to another alternative frequency as suggested by RDS	03:53
*** otep_ has quit IRC		03:54
DocScrutinizer	voice traffic message starting - please stop mp3 playback and switch to radio audio	03:54
*** otep has joined #maemo		03:54
javispedro	na, just "pending rds stuff in fifo"	03:54
DocScrutinizer	things like that	03:54
DocScrutinizer	hmm, or that	03:55
DocScrutinizer	then you'd still send the above msgs via fifo	03:55
DocScrutinizer	:-)	03:55
javispedro	touché	03:55
javispedro	I do not see a similar interupt on the wl1273 though	03:56
DocScrutinizer	nah, you're right it's probably as general purpose as it gets	03:56
DocScrutinizer	supposed to get polled constantly?	03:56
DocScrutinizer	AIUI you always have several busses to/fro that multipurpose chip. Some of them may be able to trigger a IRQ	03:58
javispedro	ah, way, there's a line.	03:58
javispedro	*wait	03:58
DocScrutinizer	where do you see that line? on that marketing paper crap?	03:59
javispedro	no, I'm reading driver	03:59
DocScrutinizer	AAAH	03:59
javispedro	sadly there's no mxr I could link you to..	03:59
javispedro	either way I just gazed at wl1273-core.c:735	03:59
javispedro	way, I'll pastebin it.	04:00
javispedro	http://pastebin.com/4W7YqNTa	04:00
javispedro	on line 735 is the service routine	04:01
DocScrutinizer	will take a while, I'm actually reading it, got to line 50 now	04:03
DocScrutinizer	;-D	04:03
javispedro	my brain's autocompleter seems to have decided to write way instead of wait and wait instead of way today.	04:03
* javispedro hits his own head a few times to trigger reset		04:03
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		04:04
DocScrutinizer	WTF WL1273_POWER_SET_RETENTION ?	04:04
javispedro	btw the driver is rather large	04:04
*** NIN101 has quit IRC		04:04
javispedro	that's just the "common" part	04:05
DocScrutinizer	yeah, agther that	04:05
javispedro	there's stuff in alsa (for codec), v4l, ...	04:05
DocScrutinizer	and also it's a driver written by "Nokia" which is kinda strange regarding they don't officially support FM	04:05
javispedro	this is the only reason I spend time on it	04:07
javispedro	otherwise I'd say " it's broken and aegis won't let me replace it"	04:07
*** sid__ has quit IRC		04:07
javispedro	nokia made it probably means it has been tested on n950...	04:07
*** Patina has quit IRC		04:10
*** ketas has quit IRC		04:11
DocScrutinizer	check amixer for mode setting	04:13
DocScrutinizer	I bet you should set this bit (literally bit) right prior to opening the McBSP audiocard	04:14
javispedro	yeah, I do that.	04:14
DocScrutinizer	data transfer won't start automagically when you open the audio card and then twiddle with the master/slave setting	04:14
javispedro	however I think the order in which I set the individual controls is important	04:14
*** TheXception is now known as TheXception\|off		04:16
jiero	Hi, is there a way use N900 as bluetooth Speaker? instead of streaming?	04:19
Juozapas	is there any file size limit for ./MyDocs dir?	04:21
javispedro	Juozapas: fat32 one	04:21
javispedro	around 2 GiB.	04:21
Juozapas	so that can be the reason why rtorrent close connect...(?)	04:23
Juozapas	connection*	04:23
javispedro	no idea.	04:23
DocScrutinizer	size limit 2GB, seen it more than once	04:23
jiero	um. I do prefer having a 10GB rootfs... my laptop use 50GB for /, 200GB for /home	04:23
Juozapas	so solution is convert it to ext3?	04:24
jiero	do you really need a file more than 2GB?	04:25
*** PhonicUK has quit IRC		04:25
*** x29a__ has joined #maemo		04:27
*** x29a__ has quit IRC		04:27
*** x29a__ has joined #maemo		04:27
*** x29a_ has quit IRC		04:29
Juozapas	good q :)	04:29
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: anyway, line 770 for signal	04:29
DocScrutinizer	826 awesome	04:31
javispedro	it's nice to see that even if you have the official docs you're still hungry.	04:31
DocScrutinizer	823 stinks	04:33
*** b-man` has joined #maemo		04:35
*** Andy80 has quit IRC		04:36
javispedro	hm... another onenand_wait: correctable ECC error = 0x0100, addr1 0x4, addr8 0xac	04:39
*** b-man` has quit IRC		04:40
javispedro	there's that dmesg error in fm driver also	04:42
javispedro	wl1273_fm_write_cmd: Cmd: 102 fails	04:42
javispedro	but that happens just in line 598	04:43
javispedro	a comment there says: "/* ignore possible error here */"	04:43
javispedro	so I guess I should.	04:43
javispedro	reading RDS is easy btw: cat /dev/radio0	04:45
javispedro	of course it is encoded so not human readable.	04:45
*** hardaker2 has joined #maemo		04:49
*** panaggio_ has quit IRC		04:50
*** MadViking has quit IRC		04:51
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: I wonder what suspend in FMRX mode might mean. (line 1195)	04:51
javispedro	I can enter it freely	04:52
javispedro	RDS empties	04:52
javispedro	loses currently tuned freq	04:53
javispedro	[32499.014923] wl1273-fm 3-0022: wl1273_fm_read_reg: Read: 55 fails.	04:54
javispedro	[32535.533905] i2c_omap i2c_omap.3: Arbitration lost	04:54
javispedro	[32536.596038] i2c_omap i2c_omap.3: timeout waiting for bus ready	04:54
javispedro	I lost the chip =)	04:54
* javispedro sighs		04:54
javispedro	ah well, thank god the driver allowed me to shut it down.	04:54
*** Gorroth has joined #maemo		05:01
*** marthd_ has quit IRC		05:03
*** marthd has joined #maemo		05:03
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: 1703 ff are kinda interesting	05:06
DocScrutinizer	1708	05:06
javispedro	yeah	05:07
javispedro	analog is the default for some reason	05:07
javispedro	btw, I cannot turn fmtx on	05:08
javispedro	I get -EPERM	05:08
javispedro	no idea why, no error on dmesg..	05:08
DocScrutinizer	allowed_modes or sth	05:09
DocScrutinizer	1374	05:11
javispedro	hm	05:11
javispedro	rm680 has allowed modes set to fmrx only	05:11
*** licensed has quit IRC		05:11
javispedro	but rx71 has it set to fmrx+tx	05:11
javispedro	as is rm696	05:11
DocScrutinizer	heh	05:11
DocScrutinizer	what's N9?	05:12
DocScrutinizer	71?	05:12
DocScrutinizer	nah rm696?	05:13
javispedro	CONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RX71=y	05:13
javispedro	CONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RM680=y	05:13
javispedro	CONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RM696=y	05:13
javispedro	lol	05:13
*** net-split has joined #maemo		05:13
javispedro	I did not think you could do that?	05:13
DocScrutinizer	MUHAHA	05:13
DocScrutinizer	a true universal sw	05:13
DocScrutinizer	meh, this sucks without schematics	05:14
SpeedEvil	It would be quite fun if that actually workerd.	05:14
DocScrutinizer	really, RE'ing schematics from driver source is so OMFG headdesk	05:15
javispedro	seemingly bootloader passes in the machine type	05:15
SpeedEvil	n9 service manual leaked only I think.	05:15
DocScrutinizer	RE'ing datasheets from sore even worse	05:16
javispedro	this is absurd	05:17
javispedro	even when chip is Off arecord does the same	05:17
javispedro	must be something stupid	05:17
DocScrutinizer	shall I do the sciphone with N950? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sciphone_Dream_G2#PCB_layers	05:18
DocScrutinizer	:-P	05:18
*** hardaker has joined #maemo		05:19
*** hardaker2 has quit IRC		05:21
*** ketas has joined #maemo		05:25
*** redeeman has quit IRC		05:25
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		05:26
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: I think the wl shall be in slave mode, not master?	05:26
javispedro	as said I cannot change that	05:26
javispedro	if that's the case -- then it's as good as broken.	05:26
DocScrutinizer	or we need to set the "audio card" aka McBSP to slave mode	05:26
*** licensed has joined #maemo		05:26
*** licensed has joined #maemo		05:26
DocScrutinizer	try different sequences like swapping order of setting up and starting wl, and starting audiocard	05:28
*** Ashford has joined #maemo		05:29
*** maybeArgh has joined #maemo		05:30
*** Ashford has left #maemo		05:31
DocScrutinizer	actually when in master mode the wl should start anyway, aiui. I just has a clock line, a data line with (usually) 32 databits in sync with clock, and a "start bit" line that tags the first bit of a 32 bit frame	05:31
DocScrutinizer	all 3 are output, and the data input will most likely get ignored	05:31
*** maybeWTF has quit IRC		05:32
javispedro	wl1273 is on mcbsp4	05:33
javispedro	configured as MCBSP_CLKACT_IOFF_FON	05:33
DocScrutinizer	hmm, how does that help?	05:33
javispedro	trying to understand..	05:34
DocScrutinizer	whatever that means	05:34
DocScrutinizer	clock active??? as slave? Input(?)OFF? FrameON?	05:34
DocScrutinizer	need a peek to SoC DS	05:35
DocScrutinizer	:-/	05:35
javispedro	na, slave	05:35
javispedro	it is set to slave	05:35
*** Sc0rpius has quit IRC		05:35
javispedro	SND_SOC_DAIFMT_CBM_CFM	05:35
DocScrutinizer	AHAAA	05:35
javispedro	this means "slave" seemingly	05:36
javispedro	according to omap-mcbsp.c:603	05:36
javispedro	( http://pastebin.com/gPCK4MkN )	05:37
javispedro	and dfl61-wl1273.c:46 ( http://pastebin.com/2b1x7MqS ) configures it that way.	05:38
javispedro	hm	05:39
*** Evanescence has quit IRC		05:40
javispedro	I ponder how often is snd_soc_ops->startup called	05:40
*** pcfe has quit IRC		05:40
*** pcfe has joined #maemo		05:41
*** pcfe has quit IRC		05:41
*** pcfe has joined #maemo		05:41
DocScrutinizer	but look at 551 .. 589 pfooooh	05:41
DocScrutinizer	of omap-mcbsp	05:42
javispedro	SND_SOC_DAIFMT_I2S \| SND_SOC_DAIFMT_NB_NF \| SND_SOC_DAIFMT_CBM_CFM is the fmt when in fmrx mode	05:42
*** Necc has quit IRC		05:45
javispedro	hum	05:50
javispedro	wl1273_fm_radio wl1273_fm_radio: INT_MASK: 0x0000	05:51
*** Smily has joined #maemo		05:52
javispedro	something weird there, I do not see where it clears the int_mask.	05:52
javispedro	also a stupid thing to do..	05:53
DocScrutinizer	I think it's pretty much an insult to throw those drivers over the wall without any example code to test them, without any readme how to use them...	05:55
javispedro	an evil	05:56
javispedro	*and	05:56
*** beford has joined #maemo		05:57
DocScrutinizer	yeah, then set it to analog default and do not mention if it's conected at all via analog, and if so then to which analog input of mixer	05:58
javispedro	I am now realizing that this log-status operation is destructive	05:59
javispedro	because it reads the int_mask	05:59
javispedro	and it causes something to happen to the device	06:00
javispedro	exactly what I dunno.	06:00
javispedro	need DS :)	06:00
DocScrutinizer	actually I wonder how they managed to get some of those I2C control register on an ioctl for v4l2 while others sit in a soundcard ctl and show up in amixer	06:00
*** dockane__ has joined #maemo		06:00
DocScrutinizer	tx power in amixer, go figure!	06:01
DocScrutinizer	alsamixer actually	06:02
javispedro	samething	06:02
javispedro	albeit for some reason alsamixer can't set Mode	06:02
DocScrutinizer	indeed	06:02
*** neal has quit IRC		06:02
DocScrutinizer	got mad about it	06:02
DocScrutinizer	after 2 hours it got me wasted	06:03
*** dockane_ has quit IRC		06:04
*** marthd has quit IRC		06:04
javispedro	no ideas	06:05
*** marthd has joined #maemo		06:05
DocScrutinizer	same here	06:05
javispedro	the only thing I've discovered is that if you keep /dev/radio0 open then arecord takes a little more time to timeout	06:05
javispedro	as in, 4 or 5 seconds.	06:05
DocScrutinizer	yup	06:05
javispedro	maybe I should try and see how BT audio works	06:06
DocScrutinizer	good plan	06:06
javispedro	but I think they'll do bluez instead of using this crap.	06:07
javispedro	battery life when using a BT headset was probably not a goal :)	06:07
*** doc\|home has quit IRC		06:07
DocScrutinizer	depends on what BT in turn is using	06:07
javispedro	what is Tx Ctune btw	06:13
javispedro	it's read only	06:14
javispedro	ooh --- TX tuning capacitor	06:14
DocScrutinizer	yeah	06:15
DocScrutinizer	cool audio control, no? ;-P	06:15
javispedro	indeed.	06:15
DocScrutinizer	makes you wonder how much of the stuff the coder actually understood	06:16
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		06:17
DocScrutinizer	maybe e could get CPU core voltage as an audio control as well? X-D	06:17
javispedro	hey, don't give ideas to those crazy tmo overclockers.	06:18
DocScrutinizer	TX power isn'T r/o iirc	06:19
javispedro	nope	06:19
DocScrutinizer	we could replace settings completely by alsamixer	06:20
javispedro	I think I now completely confused the driver	06:21
javispedro	it is allowing me to aplay data into the codec	06:21
javispedro	no complains in dmesg..	06:22
DocScrutinizer	technically mcbsp IF is always bidir	06:22
javispedro	and asme thing happens	06:22
javispedro	after some data written	06:22
javispedro	timeout and -EIO	06:22
javispedro	(evidently while waiting for space in buffer)	06:23
javispedro	aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh	06:24
javispedro	even in Bt mode the _same_ _thing_ _happens_	06:24
DocScrutinizer	toldya one card for all is a bewildering design	06:24
DocScrutinizer	anyway if there's some working FOSS BT "framework" on that thing, it might work similarly for FM	06:29
*** ysss has quit IRC		06:29
*** casketizer has quit IRC		06:29
*** [1]casketizer has joined #maemo		06:29
javispedro	oh	06:29
DocScrutinizer	so getting same error for BT is better than getting the error only for FMRX	06:29
javispedro	I now realize that "Audio Mode" is a purely software thing	06:29
javispedro	er..	06:30
javispedro	"Codec Mode"	06:30
javispedro	this makes this very weird	06:30
DocScrutinizer	what's the values for codec mode?	06:30
javispedro	BT FmRx FmTx	06:30
*** ysss has joined #maemo		06:31
DocScrutinizer	dang	06:31
javispedro	cause this means ....	06:31
DocScrutinizer	it all works alike	06:31
javispedro	and among other things hardware nevers get notified if I switch it to "bt"	06:31
javispedro	so switching it to bt does ... nothing??	06:31
DocScrutinizer	indeed	06:31
* javispedro now understands even less than moments ago		06:31
DocScrutinizer	that's what v4l2 is for	06:32
DocScrutinizer	.oO(???)	06:32
javispedro	seemingly all codec mode does is set some alsa parameter validation	06:32
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	06:33
DocScrutinizer	why is it _always_ audio that's messed up fubar, no matter on which platform?	06:34
*** erstazi has joined #maemo		06:34
*** erstazi has quit IRC		06:34
*** erstazi has joined #maemo		06:34
* DocScrutinizer waves		06:35
* javispedro gives up for the day		06:37
*** javispedro has quit IRC		06:37
*** trbs has quit IRC		06:42
*** c2pLaY has quit IRC		06:46
*** panaggio_ has joined #maemo		06:46
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		06:53
*** psycho_oreos has joined #maemo		06:55
*** doc\|home has joined #maemo		06:56
*** doc\|home has joined #maemo		06:56
*** panaggio_ has quit IRC		06:58
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		07:18
*** luke-jr has quit IRC		07:24
*** luke-jr has joined #maemo		07:25
*** AWasisto has joined #maemo		07:25
*** AWasisto has quit IRC		07:26
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		07:28
*** DocScrutinizer has quit IRC		07:30
*** DocScrutinizer has joined #maemo		07:31
*** mujtaba has joined #maemo		07:37
*** mujtaba has joined #maemo		07:37
*** TimmyT has joined #maemo		07:38
*** mujtaba has quit IRC		07:44
jiero	I found my best font for N900 : Linux Biolinum!	07:49
jiero	its style very similar to Chinese writing :D imo	07:49
psycho_oreos	`best' is best described as per se, of one's particular interest	07:53
*** Roomerlol has joined #maemo		07:53
*** mujtaba has joined #maemo		07:54
jiero	psycho_oreos: I spoken: "my best"...	07:55
psycho_oreos	jiero, rather best rephrased as my \favourite\ instead of \best\ ;)	07:56
jiero	psycho_oreos: yeah, its not eye-catching then.	07:56
jiero	psycho_oreos: what font you use?	08:01
psycho_oreos	jiero, a mixture of standard/extra fonts (nothing special really, I only care about legible factors rather than having fancy ones). For instance, on X-Terminal I use Droid fonts, but otherwise I use standard Nokia Sans/Nokia Pure fonts	08:02
*** licensed has quit IRC		08:03
jiero	psycho_oreos: ty. have you seen a problem that apt always try to uninstall Droids Font? Due to this problem, I was frustrated and getting other fonts from my laptop...	08:07
psycho_oreos	jiero, never seen an issue with apt always wanting to try and and uninstall droid font. I have had at one stage apt incorrectly asking to install a whole bunch of other packages (was related to i10n to be frank) and I think that was fixed up. Probably because the maintainer was modifying the Depends field for that metapackage.	08:09
jiero	ok, hopefully its only on me...	08:11
psycho_oreos	I'm guessing it might be the repositories of which you enable/use which may cause apt to do that. There might be a fix for it but don't quote me on it. I have to deal with issues on HAM showing up old packages needing to upgrade, which they have already been upgraded.	08:14
*** TimmyT has quit IRC		08:14
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		08:15
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		08:15
*** ZZzzZzzz_ has quit IRC		08:23
psycho_oreos	jiero, when you mean apt always trying to uninstall droid font you mean that whenever you execute apt-get download <package> for instance it shows up ttf-droid is no longer required and can be removed via autoremove command?	08:24
jiero	psycho_oreos: yes	08:25
jiero	and even i install it.	08:25
*** larsivi has quit IRC		08:26
psycho_oreos	I'm rethinking about it now. I know that appears when a package you have installed previously did depend on that package so if it was installed manually (as in ttf-droid) it may not show that issue.	08:26
*** Venemo has quit IRC		08:28
jiero	complex logic to meO:) Im simple mind...	08:31
jiero	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OilBV3CUYw&NR=1	08:31
jiero	I want this game to port to N900 :D	08:31
psycho_oreos	its a pretty simple fix I think.. uninstall ttf-droid font (make sure you're not using ttf-droid anywhere) and then manually install ttf-droid. That autoremove message should no longer appear hopefully	08:32
*** ZZzzZzzz_ has joined #maemo		08:35
*** radic has quit IRC		08:36
*** MacDrunk has joined #maemo		08:38
*** casketizer has joined #maemo		08:40
jiero	psycho_oreos: thanks, I told you it won't work:D	08:40
jiero	but..	08:40
jiero	thanks	08:40
*** net-split has quit IRC		08:41
*** [1]casketizer has quit IRC		08:41
psycho_oreos	jiero, there has to be a way to make it work :p I installed ttf-droid on its own and never had that autoremove option for ttf-droid. I'm presuming the same could be said and done in your case. Though if apt-get doesn't work, I'd just go through the dpkg route	08:41
jiero	yeah, just mv ～	08:43
psycho_oreos	lol well mv is technically the last sort of resort that I would use if apt-get still moans about ttf-droid as a dependency package	08:44
psycho_oreos	the only issue with that is you'll have to rm it should you no longer require the font in the near future	08:45
jiero	psycho_oreos: I then won't bother package management...	08:45
jiero	psycho_oreos: I just need to reformat all repartation all... 2GB is very strict too me...	08:45
jiero	I need at least 7 GB i suppose.	08:46
psycho_oreos	jiero, not that package management is either good or bad but to have a somewhat sense of centralising all the individual bits and pieces of the files that resides on the fs you may as well somehow negotiate with the package management. Though I guess you've already tried doing it :)	08:47
*** githogori has quit IRC		08:47
psycho_oreos	7GB is enough? you're planning to install every package from the extras-devel repository? :D	08:47
jiero	well. font is more like document...	08:47
jiero	psycho_oreos: 7GB because everything in ~/ need it except ~/MyDocs and I heard a best Linux partition must remain 1/4 space unused.	08:49
psycho_oreos	font on the filesystem is still known as a file :) the operating system doesn't really differentiate between a document and a regular file. They only care for few specific things namely: fifo, block devices, character devices, regular files, etc	08:49
jiero	psycho_oreos: here is the differences, font should go ~/MyDocs rather than go system folder... unless its not safe.	08:50
jiero	to use that, I need root..... root somehow need password, omg, i completely failed to learn linux.	08:51
psycho_oreos	jiero, I think you're technically misunderstanding things :) /home/user is whatever you store for your own need (and you want it to reside in ext3 rather than fat) apart from that /home/user is also used by programs which store intermediate files (such as personal preferences, score tables, etc). However /home/user shares the same partition as /opt which is regularly used by programs that would otherwise hog the rootfs	08:51
psycho_oreos	or rather you could relocate the font directory to /opt and probably symlink it. Not that I would have tried that method but that might be an alternative	08:52
jiero	psycho_oreos: I think font is my own need rather than system need...	08:53
Termana	good morning	08:54
psycho_oreos	jiero, well the system would need it if you set any programs to depend on it	08:54
psycho_oreos	hi	08:55
jiero	good morning	08:55
*** hannesw__ has joined #maemo		08:58
*** hardaker has quit IRC		08:58
*** args[0] has joined #maemo		09:00
*** TimmyT has joined #maemo		09:06
*** ysss has quit IRC		09:08
*** TimmyT has quit IRC		09:09
*** ysss has joined #maemo		09:10
*** marthd has quit IRC		09:18
*** ketas has quit IRC		09:20
*** oldhat has joined #maemo		09:23
*** neal has joined #maemo		09:25
*** x29a__ is now known as x29a		09:25
*** oldhat has quit IRC		09:28
*** Scifig has quit IRC		09:29
*** Zahra has joined #maemo		09:37
*** Zahra has quit IRC		09:40
*** dneary has joined #maemo		09:41
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		09:42
*** lardman has joined #maemo		09:48
*** lardman has quit IRC		09:48
*** lardman has joined #maemo		09:48
*** args[0] has quit IRC		09:48
*** args[0] has joined #maemo		09:48
*** dneary has quit IRC		09:49
*** GNUton-BNC has quit IRC		09:51
*** doc\|home has quit IRC		09:51
*** Dibblah has quit IRC		09:53
*** Zahra has joined #maemo		09:53
*** GNUton-BNC has joined #maemo		09:54
*** valdyn_ has quit IRC		09:56
*** doc\|home has joined #maemo		10:03
*** e-yes has joined #maemo		10:05
*** marthd has joined #maemo		10:06
*** valdyn_ has joined #maemo		10:06
*** rcg has joined #maemo		10:07
*** AWasisto has joined #maemo		10:11
*** beford has quit IRC		10:16
*** habmala has joined #maemo		10:18
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		10:22
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		10:24
*** unixSnob has joined #maemo		10:26
*** sasquatch has quit IRC		10:29
*** sasquatch has joined #maemo		10:29
*** visz has quit IRC		10:29
*** FIQ\|n900 has joined #maemo		10:31
*** AWasisto has quit IRC		10:32
*** psycho_oreos has quit IRC		10:34
*** mayday_jay has quit IRC		10:35
*** psycho_oreos has joined #maemo		10:35
*** robbiethe1st has joined #maemo		10:44
*** antman8969 has quit IRC		10:49
*** tackat has joined #maemo		10:54
*** kimitake has quit IRC		10:57
*** kthomas_vh has quit IRC		11:02
*** kraft has quit IRC		11:04
*** visz has joined #maemo		11:05
*** jrocha has joined #maemo		11:06
*** Patina has joined #maemo		11:08
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		11:12
*** marthd has quit IRC		11:12
*** Zahra has quit IRC		11:16
*** Zahra has joined #maemo		11:17
*** jrocha has quit IRC		11:18
robbiethe1st	So... I just got my first N900 replacement OEM/knockoff case.	11:19
psycho_oreos	impressions?　;)	11:19
robbiethe1st	It's actually quite interesting: They evidently bought/copied the original moulds: The pieces are exact, down to the ID numbers built into it.	11:19
*** jrocha has joined #maemo		11:20
robbiethe1st	However, that's all they got: Anything with stamped letters(like the keyboard) evidently had new stamps made, which... aren't quite as good.	11:20
robbiethe1st	The letters are thicker, and someone made a mistake: instead of a blue $, there's a blue S	11:20
*** Venemo has joined #maemo		11:20
robbiethe1st	Also, the two magnets in the back piece are missing, along with the black/white squares on the camera slider.	11:21
robbiethe1st	The slider itself, however, is perfectly made. everything looks great, feels great.	11:22
psycho_oreos	I compared the blue $ on both keyboards (one being original keypad to my newer N900, the other, a replacement keypad I bought in China for my older N900). They look exactly the same except the material used on both were different. The newer N900 is more of a matte type keypad as opposed to the glossy look/feel of the Chinese clone	11:22
*** tackat has quit IRC		11:23
psycho_oreos	yeah the insides of the backplates for the clone looked really funny. I saw a photo of that the other day with a manufacturer selling a clone N900 (which of course wasn't running maemo at all)	11:23
*** tackat has joined #maemo		11:24
robbiethe1st	Let me upload a pic	11:24
*** jrocha has quit IRC		11:25
robbiethe1st	http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/n900-replacement-back.jpeg	11:25
*** jrocha has joined #maemo		11:25
robbiethe1st	One undernieth is the original, one on top is the replacement.	11:25
robbiethe1st	The material on the new one is slightly more "grainy"/matte, versus the original one which reflected more	11:26
psycho_oreos	lol that knockoff case is a dramatic improvement to the knockoff N900 that I saw	11:26
robbiethe1st	Evidently, yea	11:26
*** radic has joined #maemo		11:27
*** Zahra has quit IRC		11:28
*** Zahra has joined #maemo		11:28
robbiethe1st	see the front: http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/n900-new-back-missing-magnets.jpeg	11:28
*** cehteh has joined #maemo		11:29
jiero	is there still a way let N900 become a bluetooth speaker?	11:37
*** ketas has joined #maemo		11:39
*** Oppo\|n900 has joined #maemo		11:39
*** lxp has quit IRC		11:41
*** lxp has joined #maemo		11:41
robbiethe1st	jiero: Yes. I don't know how, though	11:42
*** habmala has quit IRC		11:42
*** lardman is now known as lardman\|afk		11:43
psycho_oreos	robbiethe1st, http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/346983266/for_Nokia_N900_Keypad_black_Colour.html <--- similar if not exact same as the one I　bought when I was in China. afaik its an exact clone except its not matte finish	11:43
* psycho_oreos is crawling through alibaba for that fake N900 to get the photo of poorly mimicked back cover		11:44
jiero	psycho_oreos: o, you been China before:\| what do you think about our people.:D	11:44
psycho_oreos	jiero, err ok I suppose	11:45
*** OkropNick has joined #maemo		11:45
jiero	psycho_oreos: mind I ask where you from?	11:45
psycho_oreos	really shifty when you're the foreigner trying to buy stuff from them, they try to raise the price of what it was worth originally	11:46
jiero	robbiethe1st: thanks.	11:46
psycho_oreos	jiero, was born in .tw, now in .au	11:46
jiero	psycho_oreos: I understood.	11:46
jiero	psycho_oreos: no wonder, Im Chinese from mainland in Au as well.	11:47
jiero	ok, my English grammar was wrong.	11:47
psycho_oreos	jiero, I was lucky to have me old man, he was able to negotiate with mainland Chinese people or otherwise I'd have to pay things through my nose	11:48
*** booiiing has joined #maemo		11:48
Termana	All you foreigners coming in to invade our land.	11:48
Termana	Doesn't sound like us Australians at all...	11:48
Termana	:p	11:48
psycho_oreos	you invaded aboriginies land, don't forget :p	11:48
Termana	:P	11:49
jiero	well. I hope all country become one. :D	11:49
psycho_oreos	err that's a fairly vague/broad statement	11:49
jiero	dream to tell, statement to spread	11:50
psycho_oreos	o.O	11:51
*** jrocha has quit IRC		11:51
*** jhb has joined #maemo		11:52
Termana	heh.	11:52
Termana	no one has a clue what you're saying, sorry.	11:52
*** Appiah has quit IRC		11:54
*** hannesw__ has quit IRC		11:55
*** beford has joined #maemo		11:55
*** Robten has joined #maemo		11:55
*** beford has quit IRC		11:56
robbiethe1st	:D http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/439506879/N900.html	11:57
*** Dibblah has joined #maemo		12:04
psycho_oreos	http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/109188621/BRAND_NEW_Nokia_N900_BUY_2.html <--- lol yet another one (no that looks more like predecessors of N900)	12:04
*** vi__ has joined #maemo		12:04
vi__	hello	12:04
vi__	I am trying to determine the dbus call to set the operator name	12:05
*** valdyn_ has quit IRC		12:05
Juozapas	is there any safe way to remove default applications?	12:06
robbiethe1st	apt-get remove ...?	12:06
vi__	dbus-send --system --print-reply --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.phone.	12:06
vi__	net /com/nokia/phone/net Phone.Net_operator_name_change string:"lol"	12:06
vi__	it isnt this	12:07
vi__	any suggestions?	12:07
psycho_oreos	if it were that simple, there wouldn't be any need for a custom operator name widget created by qwerty12	12:08
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		12:10
Juozapas	robbiethe1st: i googled that may cause unstable system	12:10
robbiethe1st	Uh... No. Either it will work, or it won't if you remove the wrong thing.	12:10
vi__	custom operator widget was so noobz didnt have to use xterm.	12:11
robbiethe1st	apt-get is the internal package manager; it will handle removing things correctly.	12:11
psycho_oreos	or if he doesn't know what he's removing/doing	12:11
vi__	it is a simple dbus call	12:11
*** geaaru has joined #maemo		12:11
vi__	I suspect Q12 widget intercepted the the dbus call and replaced it with his own	12:12
*** lardman\|afk is now known as lardman		12:14
*** Spydemon has joined #maemo		12:14
*** andre__ has quit IRC		12:16
*** valdyn_ has joined #maemo		12:17
*** vi__ has quit IRC		12:19
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		12:21
Juozapas	ok, so how i can get package name of program ? ex. "get started" program?	12:24
*** sid_ has quit IRC		12:24
*** Robten has quit IRC		12:26
*** flo_lap has joined #maemo		12:26
*** visz has quit IRC		12:28
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		12:31
*** sid__ has quit IRC		12:34
*** Spydemon has quit IRC		12:41
*** larsivi has joined #maemo		12:44
*** eMHa has quit IRC		12:44
*** Spydemon has joined #maemo		12:45
*** Evanescence has joined #maemo		12:46
*** sq-one has joined #maemo		12:47
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		12:55
*** tackat has quit IRC		12:59
*** geaaru has quit IRC		13:04
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo		13:04
*** biston has quit IRC		13:04
*** Venemo has quit IRC		13:12
*** jhb1 has joined #maemo		13:17
*** jhb has quit IRC		13:18
*** e-yes has quit IRC		13:18
*** ErwinJunge has joined #maemo		13:19
ErwinJunge	Hi, anyone on here have experience using SDL_gles?	13:19
*** ErwinJunge has quit IRC		13:19
*** BCMM has joined #maemo		13:19
*** ErwinJunge has joined #maemo		13:20
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		13:21
psycho_oreos	Juozapas, with dpkg -l and some thinking	13:23
psycho_oreos	dpkg -L to verify afterwards as well	13:23
Mek		13:24
*** sid_ has quit IRC		13:25
*** Omegamoon has joined #maemo		13:34
*** Venemo has joined #maemo		13:43
*** eMHa has joined #maemo		13:47
*** sq-one has quit IRC		13:50
*** godtrunks has joined #maemo		14:00
godtrunks	why the n900 gps is working so slow	14:00
godtrunks	take me 20-30 min untill he find's a gps signal	14:00
godtrunks	i can do something about that?	14:01
godtrunks	so guys some help over here?	14:01
*** MadViking has joined #maemo		14:03
kerio	godtrunks: do you have a sim inside?	14:04
kerio	it just has to be inside, it doesn't even have to be registered to a network	14:04
godtrunks	yes	14:05
kerio	then wtf	14:05
godtrunks	i have a sim card inside	14:05
godtrunks	realy	14:05
godtrunks	i have sigyc mobile maps 2010	14:05
godtrunks	with naftec maps	14:06
godtrunks	what shoud i do?	14:06
godtrunks	i have lot's of problems with it since i uninstall nitdroid gingerbread 3.2	14:07
*** Oppo\|n900 has quit IRC		14:07
godtrunks	what shoud i do next?	14:07
godtrunks	any advice?	14:07
*** Oppo\|n900 has joined #maemo		14:09
jiero	godtrunks: you are actually more luck than I am, I never find the signal	14:11
godtrunks	wtf?	14:11
godtrunks	why?	14:11
godtrunks	what i have to do now?	14:11
godtrunks	warranty?	14:12
godtrunks	give me another one?	14:12
*** ketas has quit IRC		14:14
DocScrutinizer	see /topic	14:15
godtrunks	i can't	14:15
godtrunks	i'n on web irc..	14:15
godtrunks	../toping is not working	14:16
*** user__ has joined #maemo		14:16
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		14:16
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		14:16
*** voltagex has quit IRC		14:16
*** sid__ has quit IRC		14:19
DocScrutinizer	reflash COMBINED, postpone restoring all your uebergeek apps, install location test GUI, insert SIM and register, go to a free place with free sight at sky, start location test, set to "user" (OWTTE) and wait, fon't move too much	14:21
DocScrutinizer	aah, and UPDATE!! GPS didn't realy work with old obsolete ootb OS versions	14:24
DocScrutinizer	and, if this wasn't obvious: never expect GPS to work indoors	14:26
*** redeeman has joined #maemo		14:29
*** user__ has quit IRC		14:29
godtrunks	in a car mate not indor	14:29
DocScrutinizer	in a car is often worse than indoors. metalized windows	14:30
godtrunks	how about other gps devices?	14:31
godtrunks	bot with internet fing signal quick	14:31
godtrunks	bot with internet find signal quick	14:31
godtrunks	but with internet find signal quick	14:32
DocScrutinizer	other devices often have 10 times larger antenna, as they don't need GSM-4band plus 3G-3band, plus BT WLAN antenna, plus FMTX antenna	14:34
*** Necc has joined #maemo		14:35
*** PhonicUK has joined #maemo		14:36
*** Oppo\|n900 has quit IRC		14:36
villager	maybe they ought to go back to those retractable antennas sticking out of the phone	14:37
SpeedEvil	There are alterenatives to them sticking out of the phone.	14:39
robbiethe1st	villager: I'd be all for that... most of the time, you don	14:40
robbiethe1st	't need it. But when you do...	14:40
SpeedEvil	http://www.movieline.com/images/hcyPLLe/hT6EJkL/xSz50LV/JDkQ/aliens_southpark.jpg	14:40
DocScrutinizer	anyway, my GPS on N900 been abysmal in the beginning, and after some sw-updates it's just awesome now, with SIM with GPRS/data	14:41
godtrunks	with a sim withot packet data	14:42
*** jhb1 has quit IRC		14:42
DocScrutinizer	depends	14:42
SpeedEvil	Only remaining issue for GPS for me is the lack of accurate geotagging.	14:42
DocScrutinizer	~gsm-agps	14:42
infobot	hmm... rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP	14:42
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: srill the frigging "last decimals always 0" issue?	14:44
SpeedEvil	yeah	14:44
DocScrutinizer	:-((((	14:44
godtrunks	so the advide is to sw update?	14:46
SpeedEvil	Yes.	14:46
SpeedEvil	If you're not on the latest firmware	14:46
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		14:46
godtrunks	y think i am	14:47
godtrunks	last update	14:47
SpeedEvil	Settings->about product - should show a version ending in 36-2	14:47
DocScrutinizer	or having this sequene somewhere in the name	14:48
godtrunks	oke	14:49
godtrunks	thx	14:49
*** FireFly has joined #maemo		14:53
*** Andy80 has joined #maemo		14:54
*** Andy80 has quit IRC		14:54
*** Andy80 has joined #maemo		14:54
*** alehorst has quit IRC		15:04
*** hardaker has joined #maemo		15:07
*** sid_ has quit IRC		15:08
*** croppa has quit IRC		15:09
*** cpscotti has joined #maemo		15:14
*** x29a has quit IRC		15:18
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		15:20
*** x29a has joined #maemo		15:21
*** x29a has quit IRC		15:21
*** x29a has joined #maemo		15:21
*** BCMM has quit IRC		15:24
psycho_oreos	looking at the internal pictures of the N900, the WLAN module does have hirose u.fl connected, but then there's two other components that has hirose u.fl connectors but I couldn't identify the chipsets. FM transmitter module is definitely not on that list of chipsets that has access to hirose u.fl as it seems to have its own small loop type antenna	15:25
*** trbs has joined #maemo		15:25
*** kW_ has joined #maemo		15:26
*** Oppo\|n900 has joined #maemo		15:29
*** hannesw__ has joined #maemo		15:31
SpeedEvil	Waht are you trying to work otu psycho_oreos	15:33
psycho_oreos	SpeedEvil, you know those test connectors on the pcb of the N900 itself. I've been trying to figure out what the other two test connectors were. I have figured out one of which is wlan module and just now looking at the schematics the other is GPS　receiver. So now I'm debunking the third one. My rough guess is that it might be for Bluetooth	15:35
SpeedEvil	ah	15:35
psycho_oreos	nevermind the third one is cellular test connector	15:36
*** robbiethe1st has quit IRC		15:36
ruskie	http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/microsoft_news/231300314	15:38
*** deimos has joined #maemo		15:39
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		15:40
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ \| http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council \| Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources \| Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED \| For Nokia: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif"		15:41
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		15:41
DocScrutinizer	~aegis is also http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif	15:42
infobot	DocScrutinizer: okay	15:42
psycho_oreos	lol	15:42
psycho_oreos	call me stupid but isn't BTFM　module the exact same module as BT itself?	15:43
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		15:44
SpeedEvil	yes	15:44
SpeedEvil	It does both	15:44
SpeedEvil	FMTX is a seperate chipset	15:44
*** mardi has quit IRC		15:44
psycho_oreos	that's what I thought.. hmm now to find that chipset from the pictures	15:44
ruskie	DocScrutinizer, nice one ;)	15:44
*** MoonTiger has joined #maemo		15:44
psycho_oreos	yeah FMTX　is the clip on PCB type chip	15:44
*** voltagex has joined #maemo		15:44
SpeedEvil	Err - what?	15:44
*** MoonTiger has quit IRC		15:44
*** buntfalke has joined #maemo		15:45
SpeedEvil	It's a small LGA IIRC	15:45
SpeedEvil	Or maybe QFN	15:45
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: please rephrase	15:45
psycho_oreos	The FM signal is transmitted from a loop antenna built into the case, and connected to the PCB with clips. <---- http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_FM_radio_transmitter	15:46
DocScrutinizer	yes	15:47
SpeedEvil	That's just the antenna	15:47
DocScrutinizer	almost correct, though it's not actually a loop antenna afaik	15:47
*** sq-one has joined #maemo		15:47
psycho_oreos	looking at the photos available, FMTX　chip is identified via the little weird wire thing on the underside of the screen but on the PCB itself it appears with the FCC　internal photos there's the missing module where FMTX is supposed to be	15:48
DocScrutinizer	err wut?	15:48
psycho_oreos	hmm wait maybe not where the screen might be	15:48
SpeedEvil	There are actual photos of purchased units	15:48
psycho_oreos	yeah I've seen one of those purchased units pulled apart with all the photos. Just for a beginner like me its not easy to look for which chip on the phsical PCB board is exactly what :)	15:50
psycho_oreos	s/phsical/physical/	15:50
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: yeah I've seen one of those purchased units pulled apart with all the photos. Just for a beginner like me its not easy to look for which chip on the physical PCB board is exactly what :)	15:50
DocScrutinizer	psy go to schematics, ^F"fm transmitter" -->> find a hit on p.8 and learn fmtx chip is N6180	15:50
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: ^^^	15:51
DocScrutinizer	search for N6180 on p.16 to find it is located in quadrant G7	15:52
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, thanks, schematics doesn't really help me all that much in terms of comparing that with actual photo of the PCB. I guess I'll just have to dive deeper	15:52
DocScrutinizer	search quadrant G7 for that chip labeled N6180	15:52
psycho_oreos	ahh!	15:52
*** TheXception\|off is now known as TheXception		15:54
DocScrutinizer	once you learned to spot the chip, you go to http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/ to see if you can read the actual printing on the chip in my super-highres scans	15:54
psycho_oreos	thanks! slaps forehead this/these pages are also the same pages I've been looking for in comparison with what was noted here: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic and potentially here: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking#Additional_Hardware	15:54
psycho_oreos	page 16 was extremely helpful :D at least I don't have to guess with exactly which chip goes where	15:55
psycho_oreos	also the wiki should probably be updated :) you no longer have your high res images at people.openmoko.org ;) or at least its accessible from my end	15:56
psycho_oreos	s/accessible/inaccessible/	15:56
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: also the wiki should probably be updated :) you no longer have your high res images at people.openmoko.org ;) or at least its inaccessible from my end	15:56
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		15:57
*** flo_lap has quit IRC		15:57
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: the server is down, and afaik I updated the wiki to include the alternative addr several months ago	15:58
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/ IS accessable	15:58
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, no no I meant: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/n900 at http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic#cite_note-high_resolution_scans-0	15:59
DocScrutinizer	and has some nice additional scans of unpopulated bare PCB	15:59
*** sid_ has quit IRC		16:00
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		16:00
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		16:00
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		16:00
*** machia has quit IRC		16:01
psycho_oreos	ok link fixed on that hardware schematic site :)	16:02
*** sam23m has joined #maemo		16:02
*** Amorphous has joined #maemo		16:02
*** d1b has quit IRC		16:03
DocScrutinizer	hah	16:05
DocScrutinizer	mediawiki is darn smart, it didn't even throw a warning :-D	16:06
psycho_oreos	o.O	16:06
Amorphous	hi. does anyone know of a way to get the data of a n900 (stock bootloader+os) without a working screen?	16:07
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_Schematic&diff=44798&oldid=44377	16:07
Amorphous	something like an undocumented switch for the flasher or something like that?	16:08
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_Schematic&diff=next&oldid=44798	16:08
psycho_oreos	Amorphous, tried using TV out cable?	16:08
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: I.E. my edit was exactly same as your edit	16:08
Amorphous	ooh good idea	16:08
DocScrutinizer	actually no, it added a /	16:09
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, except you had a forward slash at the end of your link :D lol oh well	16:09
psycho_oreos	yeah	16:09
DocScrutinizer	so wiki isn't smart, it's not even noticing my edit based on a version that got changed from opening the edit page to saving it	16:11
*** jonne has quit IRC		16:11
DocScrutinizer	thought I've seen such "your source changed, can't save your edits" warnings	16:12
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe it IS extremely smart, detecting the edit I try to save doesn't conflict with the most recent version of the page, though my edit been based on an older "obsolete" version of the page	16:14
*** jonne has joined #maemo		16:14
psycho_oreos	I think in such cases the wiki itself would probably try to differentiate where exactly the source has been changed.. i.e. if I tried to change your link to some other link whilst you changed it back to your proper link, it may show that warning. Probably because on the same link that I used to replace on yours in which you later overwrote with a proper link.	16:14
psycho_oreos	yeah	16:15
psycho_oreos	see if I changed from your old site to google.com for instance on that wikipage for the link to your high res photos but at the very same time you have an older revision of the wiki that still points to your old site. If you tried to change that old link to the current link whilst I've already saved that wiki page for your link as google.com it would have shown you a warning I bet ;)	16:16
* SpeedEvil suffers from a stack overflow.		16:16
* DocScrutinizer suffers from E_caffeine_low		16:17
DocScrutinizer	time for 12648430 ☕	16:17
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: seen the cartoon?	16:18
psycho_oreos	segmentation fault	16:18
DocScrutinizer	:-D	16:18
SpeedEvil	yes	16:18
DocScrutinizer	wolfgang used it on this very nice qi-hw news page: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-08	16:21
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		16:29
*** lardman has quit IRC		16:33
psycho_oreos	is it just me or does BTFM uses the same antenna as WLAN? I can sort of relate to the schematics FM　is actually wired to 3.5mm stereo jack but what about the BT part? does the TX_CONFX/RF_ACTIVE/STATUS part means something to do with BT transreceiving?	16:35
*** valdyn_ has quit IRC		16:35
dm8tbr	n900 is a wl1251?	16:35
psycho_oreos	wl1251b	16:36
dm8tbr	at least the wl1271 uses the same antenna for BT and WLAN. better drivers have coexistence features where both BT and WLAN won't try to TX at the same time	16:36
psycho_oreos	I thought wl1271 combines wlan, fm and possibly even bt together on a single chip? :)	16:37
*** licensed has joined #maemo		16:37
*** licensed has joined #maemo		16:37
*** buntfalke has quit IRC		16:38
ErwinJunge	psycho_oreos: What are you trying to do that you need all this hw info? (I don't have info, just wondering)	16:38
psycho_oreos	ErwinJunge, been pondering the idea of modding my N900, going to try to push it to its limits (no not overclocking). Though as of this point, I'm only curiously pondering and keeping it in my mind until I have some sort of financial backing to do some real modding :)	16:39
ErwinJunge	Also, anyone on who has any experience using SDL_gles? I'm trying to port the darkplaces engine to N900, and it kind of works, but I get 2 screens where I should get one. One has the proper title but is black, the other shows the game menu but has title "unknown"	16:40
ErwinJunge	psycho_oreos, could you elaborate a bit? What kind of modding do you mean to push it to its limits?	16:40
psycho_oreos	ErwinJunge, the funny thing you see here is, the N900 has 3 hirose u.fl connectors. These are for wlan, cellular and GPS. If lets say I drill some small holes on the actual N900 PCB, have adapters to convert hirose u.fl to RP-SMA and have three RP-SMA　heads sticking out on the back. Attaching right antennas for each of those I gain signal boost :)	16:42
*** valdyn_ has joined #maemo		16:42
ErwinJunge	Sounds cool, you live in the middle of nowhere? :) Living in the Netherlands, I can't really envision a use for that, other than awesomeness-factor.	16:43
*** buntfalke_ has joined #maemo		16:43
psycho_oreos	the second thing I'm looking at is to see if there's an antenna connector somewhere for the bluetooth module as I wouldn't want it to be a leech and suck on wlan's connectivity. Maybe even modding the fm transmitter to have external antenna could be possible. Last but not least, was looking at gyroscope/compass that other's have pointed out. I can see there's a bit of space within the front side of N900 (looking at the PCB board of course) maybe some sort	16:44
psycho_oreos	of wiring with chips hanging on those front sides could be a possibility	16:44
psycho_oreos	ErwinJunge, wouldn't really say in the middle of nowhere but if I can turn this into a living reality, it would be really nice to have a device sticking out differently from the crowd :)	16:45
*** lardman has joined #maemo		16:45
*** lardman has quit IRC		16:45
*** lardman has joined #maemo		16:45
ErwinJunge	Compass sounds interesting. Is a thing I found surprising that it didn't have tbh	16:46
*** Openfree^ has quit IRC		16:46
ErwinJunge	Just having an N900 doesn't make you stand out enough? It's not really the most popular phone ever ;)	16:47
psycho_oreos	I mean notably with wl1251 being open sourced, and having wifi pentesting tool such as aircrack-ng working with it. If you have lets say a 5dbi antenna attached, you could pick up APs from further distances. GPS issues? well with antenna attached it'll be able to pick up satellites more easily.. cellular issues? with external antenna you'll probably be able to still obtain signals even though you seem to be in the middle of nowhere	16:47
psycho_oreos	well I admit having N900 would probably stand out (especially if you have kept the device for awhile) but one thing that annoys me with so many small avenues like these that are made possible, why not try to exploit them?	16:48
ErwinJunge	All true, it does broaden the applicability of the device.	16:48
*** unixSnob has quit IRC		16:49
psycho_oreos	I see some people making 3000mAH batteries, I　see some people making small little amps to boost their stereos	16:49
ErwinJunge	More of a software guy myself (I suck at using manual tools), but this sounds cool :) Good luck with it. Do you plan on offering modding service to other people as well?	16:49
psycho_oreos	heh thanks, as for offering service I probably won't :)　not that I'm any good with modding myself nor can I guarentee your device would be ok after its modded	16:50
psycho_oreos	I may however if I　do decide to eventually modify mine, I will make a documentation for it.	16:51
ErwinJunge	Too bad, I might actually be interested :)	16:51
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		16:51
psycho_oreos	well I can't see how the other two mobs that modded their N900 in their own ways would be happy to mod yours or anyone else's ;) I can't see why the same logic doesn't apply here	16:52
ErwinJunge	Too many negatives in that sentence, I don't get what you mean :)	16:52
ErwinJunge	Anyways, apparantly noone here has used SDL_gles :(	16:53
psycho_oreos	the people who did hardware modifications on their N900 (i.e. 3000mAH battery hack, amp hack) didn't say they'll provide service to modify anyone else's device. No? :)	16:53
psycho_oreos	I'm sure simply put. If people are really desperate to modify their own device, they would do it themselves rather than paying someone else to do it and giving the other party grief when things don't work	16:55
*** sid__ has quit IRC		16:55
ErwinJunge	Well, giving the other party grief doesn't make sense :) I'd approach it more in a "you have less chance of screwing this up than I do" kind of way.	16:55
ErwinJunge	If I try to modify my device, I run a 100% risk of completely destroying it. If you get it to work on yours, the risk is at least lower than 100% ;)	16:56
psycho_oreos	more like as in, `hey! I paid you to modify my device but now it doesn't work! why? I want my money back! you broke my device!'	16:56
ErwinJunge	I understand, it's just not really the kind of contract you'd expect for these kind of services. A "no guarantees" thing makes a lot more sense. Modding is inherantly risky.	16:57
psycho_oreos	I'm sure you could hire any electrician or a reliable hobbyist to do the job of modding your device :)	16:57
ErwinJunge	I'd be paying for a reduction of risk, not removal of risk.	16:58
ErwinJunge	True	16:58
ErwinJunge	Would come with the same "no guarantees" thing though ;)	16:58
psycho_oreos	yup but many don't realise that.. its quite evident on tmo threads that there's lots and lots of newbs out there who just doesn't have a clue about anything and they're the ones that will give you woes if you offer them services in which they may regret later in life	16:58
psycho_oreos	not really, they'll still bicker even if you said that	16:59
*** unixSnob has joined #maemo		16:59
*** lardman has quit IRC		17:00
*** mase76 has joined #maemo		17:00
ErwinJunge	True :) I understand why you'd be hesitant to offer services.	17:01
psycho_oreos	at any rate I intend to first add those 3 antennas in, they seem to be the easiest of the lot when it comes to modding	17:01
ErwinJunge	Sounds awesome. Where would they stick out of the body?	17:02
*** Openfree^ has joined #maemo		17:02
psycho_oreos	from the rear would be ideal, though there's other thoughts that circulated around my head, such as if one uses 3000mAH　battery mod with a mugen back cover, they maybe able to easily mod that back cover to incorporate three holes for RP-SMA.	17:03
*** mayday_jay has joined #maemo		17:03
ErwinJunge	And then run cables around the battery?	17:04
psycho_oreos	Then there's the thought of custom back cover which would be something like a mixture of nokia's stock back cover plus mugen's back cover.. with bigger kick stand and proper camera door, etc	17:04
*** kimitake has joined #maemo		17:05
*** Atarii has joined #maemo		17:06
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		17:06
psycho_oreos	nah, been looking at the backside of the N900 and I can see it looks like there is some sort of lump on the plastic part (once you remove the back cover of course). I was thinking of drilling holes there and having three RP-SMA heads sticking out. Obviously I wouldn't want to use extra long hirose u.fl -> RP-SMA　as that would defeat the purpose as well as making a mess	17:06
ErwinJunge	Hmm.. do you have a blog/forum thread/wiki/anything else that I can follow?	17:06
*** setanta has joined #maemo		17:06
psycho_oreos	currently no, these are only speculations on my head. If I were serious about it I'd probably blog/forum thread it, especially if I'm going to proceed doing what I have said. Right now these are just imaginations and I won't be able to do them in the near future until my finance approves	17:07
psycho_oreos	s/on my/in my/	17:08
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: currently no, these are only speculations in my head. If I were serious about it I'd probably blog/forum thread it, especially if I'm going to proceed doing what I have said. Right now these are just imaginations and I won't be able to do them in the near...	17:08
psycho_oreos	gawd.. I fail.. s/finance approves/finances improves/	17:08
ErwinJunge	Cool that infobot actually applies the substitute on the last message :)	17:09
*** NIN101 has quit IRC		17:10
psycho_oreos	indeed but only if you specify the substitution as the first parameter	17:10
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo		17:10
psycho_oreos	anyhow, I don't plan to keep anyone interested :) I don't want to hold empty promises nor do I care if someone copied my idea right here and now and used it for their own good.	17:11
*** unixSnob has quit IRC		17:11
*** jiero has quit IRC		17:12
*** lardman has joined #maemo		17:12
ErwinJunge	Clear. Still sounds awesome, so good luck with it. I hope it'll work :) What kind of finances would you need for a project like this?	17:14
*** Evanescence has quit IRC		17:14
psycho_oreos	adapters (hirose u.fl -> RP-SMA) of specific lengths (which needs to be measured), specific drill bits and drill of course	17:15
psycho_oreos	I think I already have the right screw heads to undo the screws on the backside of N900, the rest of other mods require soldering tools, flux, etc	17:16
psycho_oreos	lcuk, ping	17:19
*** NIN101 has quit IRC		17:21
*** panaggio_ has joined #maemo		17:21
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo		17:22
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: BT and WLAN share one antenna, and one hirose connector	17:22
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: no, drilling holes into the PCB is no good idea	17:23
*** unixSnob has joined #maemo		17:23
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, FFS! damn parasite BT for sharing same antenna as WLAN	17:23
DocScrutinizer	I don't see the problem	17:24
psycho_oreos	well yeah though I was looking at empty PCB　spots and I thought there was an area where I can drill holes (after comparing both pictures) it seems to be blank area	17:24
psycho_oreos	well it is a problem if for example you're using rfmon with wlan and you're listening to music through bt headphones	17:24
DocScrutinizer	forget it, there are no "blank areas" on a 7 layer PCB	17:25
psycho_oreos	bah :/	17:25
psycho_oreos	so other ways would be to have cable going around the PCB, i.e. where there are gaps for buttons, and stylus pen for instance	17:26
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: so what's the difference with BT getting killed by WLAN when they share one antenna, compared to a situation where a dedicated WLAN antenna interferes and kills BT on the dedicated BT antenna nearby?	17:26
*** tzafrir has joined #maemo		17:26
*** NIN101 has quit IRC		17:26
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: same shit	17:26
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: transmitter is slightly simpler though	17:27
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: see backscroll for context	17:27
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: psycho_oreos wants to separate BT and WLAN antenna to fix an unfixable issue	17:27
DocScrutinizer	actually it is fixable and got fixed, by hw coexistence	17:28
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, its more like WLAN gets interference from BT when its in RFMON mode. Though if both had separate antennas and lets say that I add antennas and place them elsewhere (not within 1 metre radius) it wouldn't be of an issue as compared to having them both together	17:28
DocScrutinizer	nonsesne	17:28
psycho_oreos	well, in the case that I've examined of hw coexistance via lxp's bleeding-edge drivers, it wasn't fixed. It was still showing the same issue	17:29
DocScrutinizer	exactly the same, unless you place your BT antenna further away than the peer's wlan antenna	17:29
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo		17:29
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: you evidently have a odd idea of how bt/wlan interference and coexistence work	17:30
psycho_oreos	but in either case none of this would be possible if both share the exact same antenna anyway :) its not like you could place BT and WLAN antenna at like 1 km apart :)	17:30
*** BCMM has joined #maemo		17:30
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, shrugs from the way I see it, there's no real proper coexistance :) they both operate on the similar frequency (2.4GHz)	17:31
DocScrutinizer	BT and WLAN share one frequency. period.	17:31
DocScrutinizer	there's absolutely no way to make them work concurrently in same geographic area, without separating domains by RF-tight walls	17:32
DocScrutinizer	coexistence manages some sort of round-robbing tdma	17:32
DocScrutinizer	aka scheduling	17:33
DocScrutinizer	this doesn't mean you cured the basic immanent problem	17:33
psycho_oreos	which wouldn't work in the case of one having wlan in rfmon mode and bt paired and sending data to another device	17:33
DocScrutinizer	it can not work	17:34
ShadowJK	actually BT2 has AFH, which excludes the most noisiest channels from the frequency hopping list. I've seen my E75 avoid my wlan frequency when I start pushing lots of data over wlan	17:34
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: psycho_oreos talks about "passive" wlan in monitor mode, scanning whole band I guess. BT will always interfere with that	17:35
psycho_oreos	which was precisely my problem. Though little did I know that you had to separate WLAN and BT miles apart in order to have them work concurrently for a simple issue	17:35
*** TimmyT has joined #maemo		17:35
DocScrutinizer	and separating antennae by 1, 2, 5m doesn't help either	17:35
*** GNUtoo\|laptop has joined #maemo		17:36
*** TimmyT has quit IRC		17:36
psycho_oreos	wlan operates on a smaller spectrum than bt but in either case its inevitable that both of them overlaps each other	17:38
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: if you want to use your speaker box for microphone (which of course would theoretically work), then it won't help if you get a 2nd speaker 1m away playing your heavy metal @ 110dBm, you still can't record the dialog of two guys 10m away while the box is shouting your heavy metal sound	17:38
jacekowski	well, if you make channels smaller	17:39
jacekowski	and avoid using same frequency for bt and wlan at the same time	17:39
psycho_oreos	or lower the TX power of bt	17:39
jacekowski	it could work	17:39
jacekowski	but recievers would have to be bit more selective	17:39
DocScrutinizer	quite obviously it's incredibly hard to impossible to use the box that plays heavy metal to do the microphone also record audio other than heavy metal (the bt and wlan share one antenna case) - but separating it into 2 boxes and placing them 2 meters apart doesn't really better things	17:40
jacekowski	directional antennas	17:40
psycho_oreos	that'd work to a lesser point :) but still I guess I'm at a loss	17:41
DocScrutinizer	hell, simply switch off your friggin heavy metal music aka BT when you want to record faint dialogs aka WLAN scan	17:41
*** buntfalke_ is now known as buntfalke		17:41
jacekowski	never switch off heavy metal	17:41
ShadowJK	bt normally spams entire 2.4G band :)	17:42
DocScrutinizer	BT and WLAN use same frequency and thus are immanently incompatible technologies	17:42
psycho_oreos	better yet, if two or more devices wants to share one internet connection from one device through bt and invariably PAN whilst monitoring wlan traffic, the situation is not viable by any means. Maybe the next step is USB network? maybe even communicating through stereo jack? :)	17:43
ShadowJK	unless it detects strong interference on one channel, it'll avoid that channel until interference goes away	17:43
jacekowski	use 5Ghz wifi	17:46
*** setanta has quit IRC		17:46
jacekowski	and 2.4GHz bty	17:46
jacekowski	solution!	17:46
psycho_oreos	not in the case of wl1251 :)	17:47
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		17:47
psycho_oreos	the only exception is attaching a USB　wireless dongle capable of operating 802.11a bands	17:48
*** lbt has quit IRC		17:49
*** lbt has joined #maemo		17:50
*** lbt has quit IRC		17:50
*** lbt has joined #maemo		17:50
*** nmjnb has joined #maemo		17:51
*** lofty306 has joined #maemo		17:51
jacekowski	well, if you have single chip doing bt and wlan or cooperating chips	17:51
jacekowski	you could probably make them to try transmitting on different channels	17:51
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: different to WHAT? for rfmon wlan scanning	17:52
*** flo_lap has joined #maemo		17:53
*** eMHa has quit IRC		17:53
jacekowski	i mean if it's single chip you could probably add dsp and filter out current bt transmission	17:53
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: for normal "concurrent" use of WLAN and BT data transfer there is coexistence already	17:53
*** jas4711 has joined #maemo		17:53
jacekowski	but costs would be much higher	17:53
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: It doesn't work	17:54
jacekowski	it does work	17:54
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: The transmitted signal is some billions of times stronger than the recieved.	17:54
*** Venemo has quit IRC		17:54
*** rm_you has quit IRC		17:54
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: The minute reflections from the transmitter and changes in its environment will utterly swamp the inbound signal	17:54
jacekowski	wireless collision detection works on similiar principle	17:54
DocScrutinizer	will introduce TIM noise that can't get dsp'ed out	17:54
SpeedEvil	Wireless collision detection doesn't work like that.	17:55
*** rm_you has joined #maemo		17:55
jacekowski	not exactly like that	17:55
SpeedEvil	It has a listen for other transmitters while not transmitting phase.	17:55
jacekowski	it looks for unexpected signals	17:55
jacekowski	even when transmitting	17:55
DocScrutinizer	during mute periods, yes	17:55
*** radic has quit IRC		17:55
DocScrutinizer	NO not during TX	17:55
DocScrutinizer	you can not do this	17:55
SpeedEvil	You cannot listen for signals on the same frequecy during TX	17:55
SpeedEvil	With hardware foind in a phone.	17:56
DocScrutinizer	not even with hw worth k$	17:56
SpeedEvil	It is sort-of-possible in some other cases with large fixed antennas.	17:56
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: well, that's how 10base2 works	17:56
DocScrutinizer	pff	17:56
SpeedEvil	10base2 is not wifi.	17:57
jacekowski	and wifi is similiar	17:57
DocScrutinizer	not at all	17:57
*** Scifig has joined #maemo		17:57
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: It's really, really not.	17:57
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: It's similar in the same way that constructing a tree from playdough and from DNA is similar.	17:57
SpeedEvil	10base2 transmits a constant voltage on the line, which can be sensed, just before sending the real signal.	17:58
DocScrutinizer	on a wire like 10B2 you know your local RX is seeing "the same" as the far end RX. On OTA RF this definitely doesn't apply	17:58
*** sirdancealot has quit IRC		17:58
*** hannesw__ has quit IRC		17:59
SpeedEvil	With 10base2, the signal you are detecting is at the same voltage as the signal you're sending.	17:59
SpeedEvil	With wifi, it is literally often billions of times weaker.	17:59
DocScrutinizer	so when I send a signal over a wire and my local RX doesn't receive what I've sent, I detect a collision	17:59
* ShadowJK vaguely remembers some researches recently announcing a breakthrough in receive-while-transmitting		17:59
DocScrutinizer	do that with a RF transciever ;-P	17:59
*** c2pLaY has quit IRC		18:00
SpeedEvil	ShadowJK: There is lots of poorly understood press-releases in this area.	18:00
SpeedEvil	Slashdot recently picked up one that's reinvented the phased array transmitter.	18:00
SpeedEvil	Badly.	18:00
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		18:00
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: also all those csma/cd technologies rely on a wired-or properity of the medium	18:02
DocScrutinizer	which isn't given for simple over-the-air RF transmission schemens	18:03
SpeedEvil	The nasty fundamental problem of shared wireless is that you can interfere with signals you can't quite demofulate.	18:03
SpeedEvil	demodulate	18:03
DocScrutinizer	yes	18:03
*** javispedro has joined #maemo		18:03
DocScrutinizer	the normal case even	18:03
SpeedEvil	This is somewhat fixe by 60GHz, as distant transmitters that you cannot pick up can be vasrly reduce, as they are absorbed by air.	18:04
*** sid_ has quit IRC		18:04
*** b-man` has joined #maemo		18:05
*** d1b has joined #maemo		18:10
*** jhb has joined #maemo		18:12
*** valdyn_ has quit IRC		18:15
*** felipec has joined #maemo		18:15
*** eMHa has joined #maemo		18:15
*** sirdancealot has joined #maemo		18:16
*** piggz has joined #maemo		18:16
Scifig	Can anyone please test and vote for my application in extras-testing? http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/marketstoday/0.3-2maemo5/	18:16
Scifig	Application details are here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73120.	18:17
*** radic has joined #maemo		18:17
*** psycho_oreos has quit IRC		18:19
*** unixSnob has quit IRC		18:20
*** sam23m has quit IRC		18:21
*** visz has joined #maemo		18:21
*** valdyn has joined #maemo		18:21
*** unixSnob has joined #maemo		18:23
*** Oppo\|n900 has quit IRC		18:27
*** dos11 is now known as dos1		18:31
*** buntfalke_ has joined #maemo		18:32
*** buntfalke has quit IRC		18:32
*** Sc0rpius has joined #maemo		18:32
*** jhb has quit IRC		18:40
*** jhb has joined #maemo		18:40
*** jhb has quit IRC		18:45
*** jhb has joined #maemo		18:45
*** Oppo\|n900 has joined #maemo		18:47
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		18:55
*** licensed has quit IRC		18:55
*** Oppo\|n900 has quit IRC		18:55
*** sid__ has quit IRC		18:59
*** lofty306 has quit IRC		18:59
*** pdz has quit IRC		18:59
*** marthd has joined #maemo		19:03
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		19:03
*** wazd has joined #maemo		19:06
*** DrGrov has joined #maemo		19:06
*** Dragnslcr has joined #maemo		19:07
*** lardman has quit IRC		19:09
*** sirdancealot has quit IRC		19:10
*** DrGrov has quit IRC		19:12
*** DrGrov has joined #maemo		19:12
*** licensed has joined #maemo		19:12
*** licensed has joined #maemo		19:12
*** kW_ has quit IRC		19:15
*** sirdancealot has joined #maemo		19:15
*** hannesw__ has joined #maemo		19:16
*** kW_ has joined #maemo		19:22
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		19:23
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		19:23
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		19:23
*** zap has joined #maemo		19:24
*** lxp1 has joined #maemo		19:38
*** lxp has quit IRC		19:41
*** marthd has quit IRC		19:47
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		19:49
*** DrGrov has left #maemo		19:50
*** sid_ has quit IRC		19:53
*** net-split has joined #maemo		19:54
*** githogori has joined #maemo		19:54
*** larsivi has quit IRC		19:59
*** flo_lap has quit IRC		20:00
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		20:10
*** c2pLaY has joined #maemo		20:10
ErwinJunge	javispedro, I'm working with SDL_gles to port darkplaces to N900, could I ask you a few questions?	20:13
javispedro	yes	20:14
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		20:14
ErwinJunge	Should I use SDL_SWSURFACE or SDL_HWSURFACE in SDL_SetVideoMode?	20:15
javispedro	doesn't matter. if the original used HWSURFACE, leave as is, otherwise use SWSURFACE.	20:15
javispedro	(both are the same thing for the Maemo SDL)	20:16
ErwinJunge	Original used OPENGL, which made it look for libGL	20:16
*** wmarone has quit IRC		20:16
*** Itschue has joined #maemo		20:16
ErwinJunge	Which of course didn't really work ;)	20:16
ErwinJunge	phone, brb	20:16
*** wmarone has joined #maemo		20:16
Itschue	moin moin can anyone help me to get zoom function in angry birds rio i play this with preenv wizhout webosgamesmanager	20:17
javispedro	ErwinJunge: you should be aware that neither version of OpenGL ES has all the functionality OpenGL has.	20:17
*** Scifig has quit IRC		20:17
*** habmala has joined #maemo		20:18
*** lardman has joined #maemo		20:21
*** lardman has quit IRC		20:21
*** lardman has joined #maemo		20:21
Itschue	hello	20:24
*** larsivi has joined #maemo		20:25
*** x29a has quit IRC		20:27
*** mardi has joined #maemo		20:35
*** hardaker has quit IRC		20:39
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		20:45
*** sid__ has quit IRC		20:49
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		20:51
*** Roomerlol has quit IRC		20:51
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		20:53
*** th3_4zarado has joined #maemo		20:54
*** jas4711_ has joined #maemo		20:55
*** sid_ has quit IRC		20:57
*** jas4711 has quit IRC		20:57
*** th3_4zarado has quit IRC		20:59
*** soltys has quit IRC		21:05
*** soltys has joined #maemo		21:06
*** valdyn has quit IRC		21:15
*** Goliath23 has joined #maemo		21:22
Goliath23	hi	21:22
*** valdyn has joined #maemo		21:22
Goliath23	I try to make a small change on a meamo project of mine since user requested it.	21:22
Goliath23	however, I can not push	21:22
Goliath23	I always get: error: unable to create temporary sha1 filename ./objects/6c: File exists	21:22
Goliath23	what's this? I already tried re-cloning the wc, but it didn't help. seems to be a server issue?	21:23
*** kraft has joined #maemo		21:30
*** alehorst has joined #maemo		21:31
*** antman8969 has joined #maemo		21:36
ErwinJunge	javispedro, back, was a long phonecall	21:36
*** mardi has quit IRC		21:38
ErwinJunge	I'm aware that neither version of GLES has the functionality that OpenGL has. That's also not what I meant :) Darkplaces was already ported to GLES2 to use on the iPhone. I meant the original used SDL_OPENGL instead of either SDL_HWSURFACE or SDL_SWSURFACE	21:38
Juozapas	how to use apt-get with * symbol? ex i want to remove mahjong game: apt-get remove *mahjong	21:38
Juozapas	it returns syntax error	21:39
ErwinJunge	Which led to the version of SDL included with the N900 to want to load libGL.so.1, which failed (logically)	21:39
*** geaaru has joined #maemo		21:39
ErwinJunge	So which does Maemo SDL use internally? SW_SURFACE or HW_SURFACE?	21:40
ErwinJunge	It would be nice to put the right one in the code directly, just for clarity	21:40
javispedro	SWSURFACE=0	21:41
*** bindi has quit IRC		21:41
javispedro	so nothing=SWSURFACE ;)	21:41
javispedro	internally, only SWSURFACE Is used.	21:41
ErwinJunge	Great, thanks	21:45
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		21:45
*** panaggio_ has quit IRC		21:46
*** sid__ has quit IRC		21:49
*** mujtaba has quit IRC		21:50
*** larsivi has quit IRC		21:51
*** mase_76 has joined #maemo		21:51
*** lofty306 has joined #maemo		21:54
*** mase76 has quit IRC		21:55
*** lofty306 is now known as Guest98611		21:55
SpeedEvil	http://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/6018518751/in/photostream	21:56
SpeedEvil	I need to take a better pic	21:56
*** sq-one has quit IRC		21:57
* javispedro ponders about SDL_HWSURFACE and XRender		21:57
*** Malin_ has joined #maemo		21:58
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		22:02
*** Suiseiseki has quit IRC		22:03
*** Suiseiseki has joined #maemo		22:04
*** BCMM has quit IRC		22:04
ErwinJunge	javispedro, I seem to be inadvertently opening 2 screens, where I want only 1.	22:07
javispedro	?	22:07
ErwinJunge	1 screen has the correct title, but stays black, the other screen has title "unknown" but has the actual menu content of the game	22:08
ErwinJunge	Ever heard of this happening before?	22:08
javispedro	you mean windows	22:08
*** peterbjornx has joined #maemo		22:08
ErwinJunge	Yeah, sorry	22:08
javispedro	are you changing between fullscreen and windowed mode?	22:08
peterbjornx	hello everyone	22:08
ErwinJunge	I might be... (still learning the code). Could that be the reason if I am?	22:09
peterbjornx	i messed up on my n900	22:09
*** beford has joined #maemo		22:09
peterbjornx	i kinda nuked the /usr/lib library directory	22:09
javispedro	ErwinJunge: on the SetVideoMode call add SDL_FULLSCREEN to flags, and remove any other call that toggles Fullscreen mode	22:10
lcuk	peterbjornx, so reflash?	22:10
peterbjornx	i had been on windows too long and assumed CP would ask for permission to replace files	22:10
peterbjornx	i cannot	22:10
peterbjornx	it doesnt get to USB icon	22:10
javispedro	nuking the /usr/lib directory doesn't cause again, so "try harder" =)	22:11
peterbjornx	i think init itself crashes or something very early in the init process	22:11
javispedro	s/cause again/cause that/	22:11
infobot	javispedro meant: nuking the /usr/lib directory doesn't cause that, so "try harder" =)	22:11
lcuk	power down, remove battery, insert usb cable, start flasher until it says "cannot find device", insert battery.	22:11
lcuk	try that	22:11
peterbjornx	ok	22:11
peterbjornx	i feared the worst as i have seen from the bootmenu code that the flasher device-end code appeared to be a linux program and not part of the bootloader	22:12
* lcuk never sees usb icon or presses keys because device is always upside down		22:12
ErwinJunge	javispedro, if I call SetVideoMode multiple times, I have to set SDL_FULLSCREEN everytime, right? Or is it a toggle?	22:14
*** hannesw__ has quit IRC		22:14
javispedro	ErwinJunge: everytime. but, why are you calling it multiple times?	22:14
*** Guest98611 is now known as UndaCovaMaus		22:15
ErwinJunge	I'm not sure if it actually is called multiple times :) If SDL_VIDEORESIZE is ever emitted, it is called.	22:15
ErwinJunge	Does Maemo ever emit that?	22:15
ErwinJunge	Also, the engine might recreate the screen when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra screen vanish.	22:17
*** tank-man has quit IRC		22:19
ErwinJunge	s/screen/window/	22:20
infobot	ErwinJunge meant: Also, the engine might recreate the window when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra screen vanish.	22:20
ErwinJunge	s/screen/window/g	22:20
infobot	ErwinJunge meant: Also, the engine might recreate the window when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra window vanish.	22:20
*** tank-man has joined #maemo		22:21
*** booiiing\|clone has joined #maemo		22:23
*** booiiing has quit IRC		22:24
*** panaggio_ has joined #maemo		22:24
*** klasu__ has joined #maemo		22:25
*** liar has joined #maemo		22:27
*** mesx has joined #maemo		22:28
*** mookie has quit IRC		22:31
peterbjornx	Icuk, without the U key it didnt stay in update mode but just crashed, but while pressing U key it worked	22:31
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: you know NOLO is waiting for some magic chars on USB, on boot, for detecting flasher waiting. It does this for a really short period of time, unless you hold 'u' key. You also are aware that on some machines flasher spts out its never ending sequence of magic incantations to invoke NOLO flashing more in a somewhat slowed down way? Bottom line: it's not completely useless to suggest holding 'u', even when users do the battery shuffle	22:31
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		22:32
*** licensed` has joined #maemo		22:32
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, then you tell him to :P	22:32
peterbjornx	i did lol	22:32
peterbjornx	and it worked	22:32
*** licensed has quit IRC		22:32
DocScrutinizer	premium timing X-D	22:33
peterbjornx	can i upgrade firmware without flashing the eMMC	22:33
DocScrutinizer	yes	22:33
lcuk	lol	22:33
peterbjornx	ok , might have been a dumb question but i just wanted to be sure	22:33
Sicelo	hmm. my keypad lights go on & off for no apparent reason, with extra screen brightness each time keypdad lights switch off	22:34
peterbjornx	all kb lights?	22:34
peterbjornx	or just lower left and right corners	22:34
Sicelo	yeah, whole keypad	22:35
DocScrutinizer	Sicelo: ambient light sensor	22:35
*** sid_ has quit IRC		22:35
peterbjornx	i hated that thing on the N8 i had for a short while	22:35
DocScrutinizer	Sicelo: cover upper left corner of display frame in landscape, and see kbd bl switch on	22:36
peterbjornx	wasnt possible to set screen to full brightness permanently on that piece of ****	22:36
peterbjornx	but now i have a N900 again	22:36
Sicelo	i used to think it was ALS. but is that expected to happen even when ambient light level is constant?	22:36
javispedro	ErwinJunge: (sorry for delay) SDL_VIDEORESIZE might be emitted, but I suggest ignoring it on Maemo; just open fullscreen at either size 0x0 or 800x480	22:37
DocScrutinizer	Sicelo: if you cover up the sensor then yes	22:37
ErwinJunge	Ok, I'll put an ifndef around it	22:37
peterbjornx	also, can anyone give me a complete pinout of testpads in the n900	22:37
DocScrutinizer	sensor has a rather spotlight/tele type of characteristics	22:37
Sicelo	yes DocScrutinizer. that works. nothing obstructing sensor in any way	22:37
peterbjornx	i know this is the maemo channel but as the n900 is the only current maemo device	22:38
DocScrutinizer	in a room with dark ceiling and some bright lights a tilting of device by a few degrees completely changes ALS' idea of ambient brightness	22:38
ErwinJunge	Btw, I'm now manually passing -DFREMANTLE to gcc, but is there a define set by the system that I can detect?	22:38
javispedro	ErwinJunge: nope, unless you use Hildon, which you don't.	22:38
*** choppa has joined #maemo		22:38
javispedro	personally I use MAEMO and MAEMO_VERSION	22:38
javispedro	(I mean, I define them)	22:39
ErwinJunge	Anything I can detect in the makefile?	22:39
*** sq-one has joined #maemo		22:39
javispedro	yes, cat /etc/maemo_release	22:39
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		22:39
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		22:39
javispedro	but they you need to depend on maemo-release-dev iirc	22:39
DocScrutinizer	peterbjornx: no, there's no such complete list of testpads available publically	22:39
ErwinJunge	Great, thanks for the tip	22:39
DocScrutinizer	peterbjornx: there are partial lists on the wiki	22:40
peterbjornx	ok, so only that image with rs232 and usb pads then?	22:40
peterbjornx	and the wiki	22:40
DocScrutinizer	yes	22:40
DocScrutinizer	kinda	22:40
DocScrutinizer	I know of some more names, but dunno the meanings	22:41
DocScrutinizer	so it's useless	22:41
*** kthomas_vh has joined #maemo		22:41
DocScrutinizer	one of them is FBUS iirc, so probably modem-related	22:41
peterbjornx	well it might be in the schematics (the name i think , not the actual pads)	22:42
DocScrutinizer	I suspect there have to be JTAG pads as well, but those are unknown	22:42
DocScrutinizer	no, nuttin useful in schematics	22:43
*** a-saint has joined #maemo		22:43
*** loft306 has joined #maemo		22:44
ErwinJunge	javispedro, Do I put the calls to SDL_GLES_SetAttribute before or after SDL_GLES_CreateContext() and SDL_GLES_MakeCurrent()? Currently they're after, but I based that on what I saw neverball use.	22:45
peterbjornx	totally unrelated question, what are the major pitfalls when porting a normal GL program to GLES\	22:45
javispedro	ErwinJunge: before	22:45
DocScrutinizer	anyway I know for calibrating of modem RF the factory usually hates to go via APE programs. They insist in connecting to modem directly	22:45
ErwinJunge	Could that explain the multiple windows?	22:46
a-saint	hello guys I am having problems on N900 with wifi ............ sometimes it shows the ssid on my router sometimes it shows all the networks arround but not my network	22:46
ErwinJunge	peterbjornx, that depends on the version of GL and the version of GLES	22:46
peterbjornx	maybe your router has a bad antenna	22:46
peterbjornx	well, im targeting the n900 so iirc gles 2.0	22:47
ErwinJunge	it also does 1.1	22:47
peterbjornx	and my program uses GL 1. something	22:47
peterbjornx	and some ARB	22:47
a-saint	peterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well	22:47
DocScrutinizer	they also hate to plug in fiddly connectors like micro-USB that can't get mated automatically, so there are the D+/- pads and the VBUS pad on those testpads	22:47
*** sid_ has joined #maemo		22:48
javispedro	ErwinJunge: the Maemo SDL uses two windows, one for fullscreen and one for windowed mode.	22:48
peterbjornx	a-saint, i dont know it either then	22:48
a-saint	peterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well	22:48
a-saint	peterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well	22:48
DocScrutinizer	and usually you got some 4 JTAG pins as well, so you can do proper QA in factory, check for dead solder points etc	22:48
a-saint	peterbjornx sorry quick typing ............... will wireless tools help	22:48
javispedro	ErwinJunge: it's long to explain. But either way, windowed mode on Maemo has a rather large performance hit so if this is a GL game it's bets you use Fullscreen and forget about windows.	22:48
ErwinJunge	That was the plan all along, which is why I regard the multiple windows thing as a problem ;)	22:49
*** GNUtoo\|laptop has quit IRC		22:49
peterbjornx	a-saint,i dont know, DocScrutinizer: that would make sense	22:49
DocScrutinizer	JTAG might be the way they do things like ALS calibration etc at service points	22:50
javispedro	ErwinJunge: if you are in fullscreen, you do not see the windows =)	22:50
javispedro	(despite the fact they are there)	22:50
ErwinJunge	But will they still both be there?	22:50
ErwinJunge	Ahhhh	22:50
ErwinJunge	So there are supposed to be 2 windows	22:50
peterbjornx	im not really into high end microcontrollers and mobile processors	22:50
a-saint	anyone besides peterjbjornx	22:51
*** mase_76 has quit IRC		22:51
*** sid__ has quit IRC		22:51
peterbjornx	JTAG was a serial debugging/flashing interface, right?	22:51
*** larsivi has joined #maemo		22:52
*** UndaCovaMaus has quit IRC		22:52
DocScrutinizer	JTAG is a special protocol plus hw that allows access to all boundry-check enabled chips' pins directly	22:53
DocScrutinizer	basically a loooong shift register	22:53
ErwinJunge	peterbjornx, I don't really know enough to conclusively say this, but OpenGL 1.5 should be ported to OpenGL ES 1.1, since they are sort of similar. javispedro probably knows more about this :)	22:53
DocScrutinizer	4 pins	22:53
a-saint	hello guys I am having problems on N900 with wifi ............ sometimes it shows the ssid on my router sometimes it shows all the networks arround but not my network	22:53
peterbjornx	erwinjunge, how about ARB VBO's	22:53
DocScrutinizer	~jtag	22:53
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, jtag is a method of reflashing bricked devices. it stands for "joint test access group", if joshua_ remembers correctly. the method used is called "boundary scan" over a parallel port. it works by sending commands to twiddle individual pins on the CPU. LART JTAG info can be found at http://www.lart.tudelft.nl/projects/jtag/ .	22:53
ErwinJunge	javispedro, a related question, does using GLES1.1 instead of GLES2 incur a performance hit, or is it just the flexibility of shaders?	22:53
javispedro	on the pvr there's little performance hit.	22:54
javispedro	other chipsets have more problems.	22:54
ErwinJunge	peterbjornx, you have thoroughly lost me :), see http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES	22:54
*** unixSnob has quit IRC		22:55
ErwinJunge	It has a neat graphic on the differences between the different versions of GL	22:55
peterbjornx	ARB (dunno what it stands for) vertex buffer objects	22:55
ErwinJunge	javispedro, so GLES2 is slightly faster than GLES1.1, or the other way around?	22:55
DocScrutinizer	MEH, better try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jtag	22:55
DocScrutinizer	this link of infobot is dead	22:56
javispedro	ErwinJunge: I do not think the difference is significant on PVR, but other chipsets implement 1.1 on top of 2, and some do a poorly job at that.	22:56
ErwinJunge	peterbjornx, from the page I just linked: Sami Kyöstilä has developed a number of utilities. This includes SDL with OpenGL ES 1.x support, libglutes, python-opengles and several translators to convert OpenGL ES and OpenGL. Note that these utilities are designed for the Nokia N810 and OpenGL ES 1.x.	22:56
DocScrutinizer	~factinfo jtag	22:56
infobot	jtag -- last modified at Sat Jun 28 04:49:56 2003 by joshua_!joshua@h002078c680df.ne.client2.attbi.com; it has been requested 4 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 2m 57s ago.	22:56
ErwinJunge	javispedro, interesting, thanks	22:57
*** hardaker has joined #maemo		22:57
a-saint	can anyone help me solve my problem	23:00
peterbjornx	thanks, something else unrelated , i cant charge my battery with the nokia charger adapter cable and a thin-plug nokia adapter, it does provide power and n900 says it is charging but the battery doesnt charge (after multiple hours its still empty)(offtopic) nice, TU Delft (proud to be dutch)	23:00
*** Zahra has quit IRC		23:00
a-saint	there must be someone who knows or at least tell me to throw my n900 away	23:04
*** hardaker2 has joined #maemo		23:04
*** hardaker has quit IRC		23:05
*** klasu__ has quit IRC		23:05
*** APTX_ has quit IRC		23:06
*** wicket64 has joined #maemo		23:07
*** APTX has joined #maemo		23:07
*** hardaker2 has quit IRC		23:07
*** hardaker has joined #maemo		23:09
*** a-saint has quit IRC		23:09
ErwinJunge	peterbjornx, I don't get the TU Delft reference	23:10
ErwinJunge	Regarding the battery issues, I have no idea	23:10
*** buntfalke_ has quit IRC		23:11
*** javispedro has quit IRC		23:11
DocScrutinizer	a-eh?	23:12
DocScrutinizer	wtf? a-saint?	23:12
*** habmala has quit IRC		23:12
DocScrutinizer	peterbjornx: please elaborate on "nokia charger adapter cable" and "thin-plug nokia adapter"	23:13
DocScrutinizer	peterbjornx: sorry, have to run, RL calling. Generic advice: use bq27200.sh for better insight what's up with charging and battery. Search wiki for related pages	23:14
DocScrutinizer	o/	23:15
*** Spydemon has quit IRC		23:19
*** unixSnob has joined #maemo		23:20
*** FIQ\|n900 has quit IRC		23:20
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		23:22
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		23:26
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		23:26
*** crashanddie has joined #maemo		23:26
*** zap has quit IRC		23:27
*** sq-one has quit IRC		23:28
*** radic has quit IRC		23:29
*** radic has joined #maemo		23:29
*** Atarii has quit IRC		23:30
*** BCMM has joined #maemo		23:32
*** crashanddie has quit IRC		23:35
*** Spydemon has joined #maemo		23:35
*** jhb has quit IRC		23:40
*** jhb has joined #maemo		23:40
peterbjornx	anyone still here?	23:41
sevard	no	23:43
*** sevard has left #maemo		23:43
*** PhonicUK has quit IRC		23:44
*** arnet has joined #maemo		23:48
*** jhb has quit IRC		23:48
*** [XeN] has joined #maemo		23:49
*** [XeN] has quit IRC		23:52
*** [XeN] has joined #maemo		23:52
*** sid__ has joined #maemo		23:53
*** sid_ has quit IRC		23:56
*** FIQ is now known as Ness		23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!