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| X-Fade | MohammadAG: No, he doesn't even have admin there. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| X-Fade | Nor do I for that matter. | 00:00 |
| MohammadAG | my profile took a stroll, that's the only explanation :P | 00:00 |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer: and do you know how bme get capacity percentage? | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | by magic ;-D | 00:00 |
| X-Fade | MohammadAG: And meego.com accounts have never worked there, they are separate. | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | or call it wild guessing :-) | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | Pali: actually nobody knows how bme does the calculation of capacity, but it's known to yield rather incoherent results | 00:01 |
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| MohammadAG | Pali, three shots of vodka and division of two random numbers | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-> | 00:02 |
| Pali | ok :) | 00:02 |
| Pali | problem with bq is that ILMD is not set correctly? | 00:03 |
| MohammadAG | X-Fade, weird, must've been me then :P | 00:03 |
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| MohammadAG | should start drinking coffee methinsk | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | for bq27200 however the algo is absolutely clear and documented and you *can* understand what's going on, and get a decent notion about whether the values are good or not | 00:03 |
| MohammadAG | X-Fade, any ideas how to create a public repo that everyone can access? | 00:03 |
| ShadowJK | pali: yes, it,s set for 2000+ mAh battery | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | Pali: basically, yes | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | 2056 | 00:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | while it should be 1350 | 00:04 |
| ShadowJK | 1300 would be sane | 00:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever | 00:04 |
| X-Fade | MohammadAG: Your home repo is open. | 00:05 |
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| Pali | in datasheet is written that ILMD register is R/W | 00:05 |
| Pali | did somebody try to rewrite it? | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | btw about build.pub.meego.com login: EEEEK JS | 00:06 |
| ShadowJK | You need 40V or something to erase the eeprom | 00:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | 18V ? | 00:06 |
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| ShadowJK | which is not available on n900 | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: the relevant oins are NC and reachable | 00:06 |
| ShadowJK | I forget exactly what, but it was alot more than 5V :) | 00:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | *pins | 00:07 |
| MohammadAG | X-Fade, can anyone push to it? | 00:07 |
| X-Fade | MohammadAG: Yes, but you need to accept it of course. | 00:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | sratch my JS comment, when JS is disabled, it works just as expected | 00:09 |
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| X-Fade | MohammadAG: But anybody can do a SR to our project home. | 00:09 |
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| Pali | DocScrutinizer: I did not read full bq datasheet, but there is really no way how to decrease/fix LMD? | 00:16 |
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| khertan | X-Fade, anyway it doesn't seems to be blocking | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, except doing a learning cycle | 00:17 |
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| Pali | and how to do correct learning cycle? | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | which means fully charging battery, then discharge to some 3200mV | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | depending on bme's mod you'll need to stop bme or your device will shit down before even reaching 3200mV | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | mood* | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | I keep the shit down :-P | 00:19 |
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| Pali | ok | 00:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | CI = 1 says you never had a valid learning cycle during the last 30 cycles | 00:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | cycles total is number of cycles since battery insert, and there's also "number of cycles since last valid learning cycle" (OWTTE) | 00:20 |
| Pali | Cycle Count since Learning: 1 Total Cycle Count since last full reset: 1 | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | you managed to do a valid learning cycle on your first cycle after inserting battery. | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | Do another 4 or 5 and your LMD will slowly approach reasonable values | 00:22 |
| ShadowJK | No, if those two are same number, means no learning cycle has taken place | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooops, right | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | then CI = 1 | 00:23 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | CI means "Calculations Invalid" | 00:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Pali: the crux with bq27200 is it's never been meant to be detachable from battery cell | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | *should* sit in battery pack, not in device | 00:25 |
| SpeedEvil | And it's meant to be setup so that the voltage at termination is set to 6% below the 'low' state | 00:25 |
| SpeedEvil | So it's wrong | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's why each removal of battery completely resets and messes up things | 00:25 |
| SpeedEvil | As it doesn't learn | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: indeed | 00:26 |
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| MohammadAG | X-Fade, can acceptance be scripted? | 00:26 |
| ShadowJK | Charge full. Check vdq=1. Use phone until bme gives battery low. Dont charge. When bme gives battery low, 'stop bme', check vdq=1. './bq27200 5' in an xterm to monitor stuff. When voltage goes below 3248, EDV1 column should turn to 1, if VDQ was 1, a learning cycle completes. Insert charger (a functioning original wallcharger, no shitty usbs) , 'start bme', screen turns off, some jogging of lock slider brings it back. | 00:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, actually it depends on bme's mood as mentioned above | 00:26 |
| MohammadAG | point is, having a home similar to -devel | 00:26 |
| MohammadAG | no QA, all packages in one place | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: prepare for bashing :-D | 00:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ""will you accept now!!! lazy lad!"" | 00:27 |
| Pali | ok, thanks for info | 00:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | Pali: yw | 00:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Pali: question: what's status of PK47? regarding e.g iso9660 kernel drivers for hostmode | 00:28 |
| ShadowJK | LMD 1227, cycle count since learning 7, cycle count since last reset 152 :) | 00:28 |
| Pali | CONFIG_ISO9660_FS=m | 00:29 |
| Pali | CONFIG_JOLIET=y | 00:29 |
| Pali | X-Fade: Do you know where is problem why kernel-power is not shown in maemo.org package interface? | 00:31 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer: ? | 00:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sorry for the noise | 00:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Pali: thanks | 00:35 |
| Pali | I'd like to release v48, but I have some problems with rebooting and problem with maemo.org/packages (it does not see v47) | 00:36 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: 1174/3/28 - If this was the 'real' capacity it'd be fine, but impedence is a problem (I need to kill BME or it keeps beeping almost after I uplug it from the charger | 00:37 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah I have a battery measuring 1054mAh, low cycle count, it mostly sat empty in my spare N900 for half a year. | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: this is kown to kill LiIon | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can bin it right away | 00:39 |
| ShadowJK | It was 4.2V when I put it in, a month later it lit up emergency charge led :) | 00:39 |
| ShadowJK | parasitic drain in "off" seems somewhat high :s | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | N900 seems to not always exactly switch off completely | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | too many subsystems without a proper main breaker switch to kill them | 00:40 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah, MeeGo switched off seems to drain battery in <24h | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | cool shit man | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | I guess modem still in stanbay while main APE off | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | standby | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | bye | 00:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 00:42 |
| ShadowJK | Problem is it lasts longer when switched ON than when switched off... | 00:42 |
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| Pali | DocScrutinizer: What is status of project jrbme? | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically binned | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's no real win in implementing all the crap so it would integrate nicely and keep the rest of system working | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1006716&postcount=806 | 00:51 |
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| Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer: thanks for the modest hints | 00:54 |
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| chem|st | yawn | 00:59 |
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| * SpeedEvil notes that the 'seeekrit IP' in BME doesn't inclue anything that notices it's bootlooping ue to power starvation, and bump up the threshold 50mV | 01:08 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | there IS NO secret IP in BME, it's simply a system maintained by subcontractors and Nokia has neither (C) nor inhouse competence about it. My 2 cents | 01:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and those who actually had a look at it and told me about it claimed it "makes your eyes bleed" | 01:11 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 01:11 |
| SpeedEvil | I know. | 01:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | which is plausible ( quote mythbusters ) regarding it acesses some register #48 of a chip that only has some 5 or 6 registers | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually I think bme works by mere incisence | 01:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | incidence* | 01:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | and maybe Nokia even got it independently evaluated and then got an assurance against all doom that might arise from LiIon cells, so this would at least explain why they are completely horrified about anybody touching it | 01:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer | or, even more plausible, the cell manufacturer made this bme and also took responsibility about the bme&cell system behaving | 01:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | which also would explain why fremantle bme seems designed to reduce lifetime of battery ;-D | 01:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | harmattan bme is way more sane it this regard | 01:19 |
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| fusi | ^ very interesting stuff | 03:57 |
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| fusi | my batt apparently holds 1309mah when full.. | 03:57 |
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| SpeedEvil | fusi: It learns at a maximum of 1/8th per clcle | 04:03 |
| SpeedEvil | So if it's learned up or down 1/8th from ILMD - don't believe it | 04:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | 1309 sounds absolutely sane | 04:04 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 04:05 |
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| fusi | only tak emy battery out when i get really angry at it :p | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol | 04:06 |
| fusi | im like RIGHT you deserve this! | 04:06 |
| fusi | hehe | 04:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: pondering about a script that monitors bq27200, tears down bme just in time to hinder it shutting down system, then continue monitoring bq27200 until learning cycle complete, and re-enabling bme | 04:09 |
| SpeedEvil | I question the point | 04:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | errr, isn't that obvious? :-) | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | In practice - just remember when it hits LMD (of your code) + BMEthreshold+20mV | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Then learn LMD (bq) -NAC = real capacity | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, but that's not taking care about one time calibration of bq | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Indeed. | 04:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | only works if you're running this script of yours constantly | 04:12 |
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| SpeedEvil | So does the BME teardown script | 04:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | while mine just takes care about automatic calibration run that otherwise needs attendance | 04:13 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's a one-shot thing | 04:13 |
| SpeedEvil | Or B) | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | B) is? | 04:14 |
| SpeedEvil | Poke jonwil to haxxor BME to get it to turn off at 3148mV | 04:14 |
| SpeedEvil | No script needed - just works | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | hahaha exactly what I pondered 10 min ago, though I didn't think exactly about jonwil | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 04:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | I already tried to figure what doom might come from this - worst case | 04:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | unadvertised modem shutdown? | 04:16 |
| SpeedEvil | that hits at 2940 or so I think | 04:16 |
| SpeedEvil | Dropping the voltage 50mV or so leaves plenty of margin | 04:17 |
| SpeedEvil | It's already marginal that it will occasionally learn | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, my thoughts | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually it does here | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think it depends on load, and Z of cell | 04:17 |
| SpeedEvil | It would also be nice if the voltage where it comes out of ACT_DEAD coul be bumped up a few millivolts too | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | haha | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | I actually forgot about a few of the goty details of flatbatrecover internals | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | messing with mce.ini for different color for breating light and charging light already helps a lot to understand what's really going on | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | I just want someone to come up with a nice fuelcell | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | That I can feed my phone sugarcubes. | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | yoh | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd feed it vodka | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | 10 drops for N900, rest for me ;-D | 04:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | MohammadAG, what happens when you get so many interests you run out of room on your avatar? | 04:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | there *are* nice fuelcells (though still not the sice of a BL-5J yet), alas not available for mere mortals. Strictly military and costs more than gold | 04:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | size* | 04:23 |
| SpeedEvil | yes. | 04:23 |
| SpeedEvil | Same as I found some truly awesome Li-Ion - specced for 10K charge/discharge cycles | 04:23 |
| SpeedEvil | SAFT - and no, you can't buy them. | 04:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, alkaline also was available for military exclusively for a few years | 04:24 |
| nox- | crazy | 04:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | and DAMN I think the first alkaline were SAFT?!? .oO(???) | 04:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | http://www.saftbatteries.de/ | 04:31 |
| ShadowJK | I was toying with the idea of a calibration script that worked kinda like laptop battery calibration procedure. Connect charger, script charges battery full, turns off charger, turns on screen, waits until learning threshold, turns on again | 04:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: http://www.campingplus.de/wbc.php?sid=752637913cd&pid=8211&tpl=produktdetail.html | 04:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | 25W 6.5kg | 04:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Leetle heavy. | 04:39 |
| SpeedEvil | 39dB@1m! | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | err well, they might get better fans ;-P | 04:41 |
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| MohammadAG | GeneralAntilles, expand, get bigger avatars!!! | 05:11 |
| MohammadAG | Simplify the existing avatar, windows phone 7 logo | 05:11 |
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| Primes | hello, I bought a Nokia N900 this week | 05:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | MohammadAG, ooh, resolution independence. | 05:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | good thinking. | 05:13 |
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| Primes | Hi generalA, I was at a presentation on making HTML5 web apps usable by smartphones today, in the authors code, he was querying the pixel width and dpi of the device, to decide either mobile or not, and if a retina display of iphone4 use double rez bitmaps. Of course he should give the best bitmaps to the N900 too, it has the width! Anyway, my purpose here was to ask about microSD cards | 05:15 |
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| Primes | From what I read, the N900 supports the SDHC standard cards in micro size. It seems to say 16GB maximum, whereas the standard specifies up to 32GB and cards are available. Was it just that when the docs were written nobody released a 32GB card yet, or is there some technical reason that 32GB cards isn't supported? | 05:18 |
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| jiero | Primes: technically not supported. | 05:22 |
| jiero | Primes: I watched Transformer 3 recently, and felt bad about the betrayal .... | 05:23 |
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| jiero | Primes: firsly I didn't realize what Prime means and then I remember the translation was quite similar to it - all 他和 | 05:24 |
| jiero | Hi, is N950/N9 application able to run on N900 with Meego 1.2 community edition | 05:26 |
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| ShadowJK | Primes, there were no 32G cards available when the docs were written. 32GB cards are supported. Kingston cards (and relatives of Kingston) are glitchy | 05:31 |
| Primes | hi jiero as I understand, I think it should run, but the 1.2 community/developer edition for now looks quite basic (from youtube videos). | 05:31 |
| Primes | I will run meego as soon as I buy my microSD card to install it on, hence my question about sizes of card 32 > 16GB of course ;-) | 05:31 |
| ShadowJK | Harmattan has APIs and things that don't exist in real MeeGo | 05:31 |
| jiero | omg, It support 32GB? | 05:32 |
| ShadowJK | sure | 05:32 |
| Primes | Thanks shadowjk, I will try avoid the Kingston | 05:32 |
| ShadowJK | There's a kernel patch on talk.maemo.org somewhere that makes the Kingston cards behave | 05:32 |
| jiero | thanks. | 05:32 |
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| jiero | I hope Meego could run on internal card which run faster, it seems. | 05:34 |
| ShadowJK | Well you can for sure get slower MicroSD cards, most Class 10s for example, but you can also get faster MicroSD cards, mostly in the Class 4 and Class 6 range | 05:35 |
| Primes | It's recommended to use card class 6 ie min 6 MB/sec write. I don't know the comparative speed of the internal flash? | 05:35 |
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| ShadowJK | iirc the internal is sandisk or samsung/toshiba, it doesn't have a class rating as it isn't *sdhc, but if it was, knowing the manufacturer, it'd probably be rated as class 2 or class 4 | 05:36 |
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| casketizer | anyone have a binary for ircII (N900) ? | 05:37 |
| ShadowJK | there's on for irssi in the repos, iirc... | 05:37 |
| Primes | So, I know how to install u-boot. This will boot maemo if there is no meego SD installed, but if there is it boots meego. Is it possible to select manually on boot? The guy who used some different bootloader with debian arm, or the NITdroid project seemed maybe to use different method eg keyboard out or not selects boot OS | 05:37 |
| casketizer | yea i know | 05:37 |
| casketizer | im lookin for ircii tho | 05:38 |
| ShadowJK | Primes, type "run noloboot" on start and it boots maemo | 05:38 |
| casketizer | gonna try debian package, cant do much harm with 44mb free rootfs | 05:38 |
| Primes | yes shadow I had read that online. However I was preferring something more like my desktop linux/win dualboot, it let's me select the OS from a menu, or times out to boot the default | 05:39 |
| ShadowJK | I'd get 4G card anyway, they're cheap, and if you end up with a superslow one it's not too expensive to get another brand/model to try again | 05:39 |
| Primes | The 16GB cards are reasonable, maybe the sweetspot eg Adata , PNY, Samsung? The 32GB are more than twice the price. However, I also have a local source of used ones that I don't think will have been hammered to much. So used 32GB is similar price to new 16GB, making it tempting | 05:41 |
| ShadowJK | http://www.sakoman.com/OMAP/microsd-card-perfomance-test-results.html | 05:41 |
| * SpeedEvil wishes again for 'raw mode' microSD | 05:42 | |
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| ShadowJK | indeed | 05:42 |
| jiero | internal flash speed at 20mb/s | 05:43 |
| ShadowJK | sequential speeds aren't that relevant | 05:44 |
| jiero | o its 20mbits... | 05:44 |
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| Primes | It seems different manufacturers measured the speed differently too. Some took the read speed rather than the write, some took the write speed when new, others took the write speed under maximally fragmented situation that it would degrade to. | 05:45 |
| cehteh | if you need performance, dont buy noname .. and kingston is noname :P | 05:45 |
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| Primes | for storing camera photos sequential is the usage. Running an OS, there will be more random | 05:45 |
| ShadowJK | look at that link, the Class 10 Patriots that do 7Mbyte/s write 19Mbyte/s read take 6000 seconds to boot this guy's operating system. On the other hand, the Sandisk Class 2 with 4M write 10M read boots it in 1800 seconds. | 05:45 |
| cehteh | yeah | 05:45 |
| casketizer | i found most class 10 cards a frauds. i have serveral class 6 cards that are equal or even faster. fastest card i own is a hama 16gb class 6 doing 8-9mb write and 19mb read. i use it for swap now | 05:46 |
| cehteh | sandisk samsung trancend are names | 05:46 |
| casketizer | a=are | 05:46 |
| ShadowJK | Primes, the cheap ones just run whatever benchmark program that reviewers use, and slap class rating according to that. It's not correct if you look at the definition of class rating, but nobody cares because class is only relevant for digital cameras | 05:46 |
| cehteh | hama is extremely noname :P they just buy and rebrand what they could get, if you are lucky thes found a good charged which dropped on the floor | 05:47 |
| casketizer | i have a sandisk cls 10 which is significantly slower | 05:47 |
| ShadowJK | Sandisk doesn't make a class 10 microsdhc | 05:47 |
| ShadowJK | (by extension, if you have one, it's fake) | 05:47 |
| casketizer | hama used to be lowend shit | 05:47 |
| Primes | yes, nobody validates it externally so they claim what they choose to market it as | 05:47 |
| ShadowJK | Primes, it can not be validated externally | 05:47 |
| cehteh | class ratings only tell about sequential write speeds .. nothing about random, nothing about reads | 05:47 |
| ShadowJK | Because you need knowledge of the internal workings of the card | 05:48 |
| ShadowJK | class rating is not a benchmark result. | 05:48 |
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| casketizer | the sandisk is a semi-prototype | 05:48 |
| cehteh | even if the class rating is accurate for using it as disk to boot some OS its completely unrelated | 05:48 |
| Primes | I mean there is no independent certification authority to make the ratings comparable directly, it's just an indication now | 05:48 |
| casketizer | u cant buy it | 05:48 |
| Primes | true cehteh | 05:48 |
| ShadowJK | Sandisk also stopped printing class rating on their microsdhc :-) | 05:49 |
| casketizer | i got it at an expo on the sandisk booth | 05:49 |
| casketizer | that was when i had n95 still | 05:49 |
| casketizer | so few years ago | 05:49 |
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| ShadowJK | Primes, by their nature the class rating is not comparable to determine average expected performance | 05:50 |
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| casketizer | i have a brand new sandisk here which has class rating | 05:50 |
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| casketizer | class 4 | 05:50 |
| Primes | however , one might infer a loose correlation. | 05:50 |
| cehteh | not really see the results on that page | 05:50 |
| ShadowJK | The definition is: *minimum* *sequential write* in the *best case*. This is somewhat of a contradiction in itself :-) | 05:50 |
| Primes | lol, and those ratings are roundings, so I prefer to see some actual MB/sec ratings | 05:51 |
| cehteh | and thats the most uncommon access pattern when you boot and run a OS from it | 05:51 |
| ShadowJK | Primes, more over, these ratings are *minimums* | 05:51 |
| cehteh | Primes: it wont be static, depending on the wear leveling implementation | 05:51 |
| ShadowJK | not "it'll go this fast" | 05:52 |
| cehteh | and access patterns | 05:52 |
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| Primes | yes, at one time Sandisk had the best wear levelling, perhaps others are catching up now | 05:52 |
| cehteh | one day you can write 6mb/s the next only only 4.5MB/sec | 05:52 |
| ShadowJK | it's "I need it to go as fast as X, if it doesn't, my video camera specs says I will have framedrop" | 05:52 |
| cehteh | after some use many cards get much slower, the better ones settle at some level, really bad ones drop dramatically in speed | 05:53 |
| Primes | yes cehteh, just like 2.5 inch flash SSDs, performance usually degrades., controller dependant. | 05:53 |
| cehteh | good SSD's to idle time maintenance to regain performance .. but i doubt SD card firmware does that | 05:54 |
| ShadowJK | Kingston cards are so braindead they always run in slow mode :-) | 05:54 |
| cehteh | my laptops SSD is very consistent in speed even without TRIM because dmcrypt | 05:54 |
| Primes | yes they are more primitive controllers in the SD, but do they also use some overprovisioning? | 05:54 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah, because they don't actually test the flash before or after they put it in a *SD card. | 05:56 |
| Primes | Ah, so , for ability to reject bad sectors yet still work, thus increasing yield from production. I was thinking more for moving stuff around to minimise erases. | 05:57 |
| ShadowJK | It never moves stuff around | 05:58 |
| SpeedEvil | Not quite. | 05:58 |
| ShadowJK | There's basically no wear leveling of static data | 05:58 |
| SpeedEvil | There are always bad sectors in most NANDs | 05:58 |
| SpeedEvil | there are expectedd to be | 05:58 |
| cehteh | they have ecc for that | 05:58 |
| cehteh | same for spinning platters .. errors are expected | 05:59 |
| Primes | But when the capacity is full, I think it should be doing intelligent writing and erasing | 05:59 |
| ShadowJK | Primes, it doesn't know about capacity | 05:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Indeed - the ECC isn't quite for that - it's picking up the errored sectors before they become problematic. | 05:59 |
| SpeedEvil | So they can reallocate. | 05:59 |
| cehteh | they dont do write verification but they have enough error correction information to cover almost all expected errors | 05:59 |
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| cehteh | nowadays the read signals (both, ssd and hdd) are quite weak | 06:00 |
| ShadowJK | All cards I've had that I've worn out have had nasty failure behaviours. One silently corrupted data. One just hangs indefinitely when touching the bad sector. One does the same, except the bad sector randomly moves around (wear leveling the dead sector) :-) | 06:00 |
| cehteh | for hdds its the magnetic impulse which must be over the noise floor for ssds and MLC its the resistance encoding the data | 06:00 |
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| ShadowJK | And yet writing to other areas of it works full speed without problems, so it's not doing bad sector reallocation or wear leveling over the entire area | 06:01 |
| SpeedEvil | They do it over regions | 06:01 |
| cehteh | technology is maxed out there is no marigin for error on the hardware level, that all needs to be compensated by clever software and error correction bits | 06:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Of a thousand blocks or so | 06:01 |
| Primes | cehteh, error correction is more overhead, detection can be done by some CRC on a large size area, if it mismatches, just invalidate the whole block I guess. | 06:02 |
| SpeedEvil | At least according to stuff I've read. | 06:02 |
| SpeedEvil | Not quite. | 06:02 |
| SpeedEvil | Every block written has ECC along with it. | 06:03 |
| SpeedEvil | If, on read, the ECC nearly fails to correct the block, then that block is marked bad | 06:03 |
| cehteh | Primes: when you expect errors to be seen at read time and dont do write verify then you rely on ECC | 06:03 |
| cehteh | otherwise the storage would be leaky .. | 06:03 |
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| cehteh | and this is usually implemented in some hardwired circruits at least partially | 06:03 |
| ShadowJK | In any case, cards don't do any fancy wear leveling or bad block replacements. They're quite primitive, which only makes SpeedEvil's want for raw mode the more relevant, you could use the powerful host processor for doing something more clever, which would not only boost longevity, but also boost speed by a few magnitudes :/ | 06:04 |
| SpeedEvil | It's expected there is some error rate - the key is that the ECC can 'always' catch it before it goes bad irrecovera bly | 06:04 |
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| Primes | cehteh, but ECC can only correct some limited errors, not many bit errors, so it's possible you still could lose data | 06:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Primes: The ECC is designed so it has enough depth for worst-case degradation of the memory | 06:04 |
| cehteh | ShadowJK: well yes .. i sometimes wonder about all this wear leveling .. why dont you use blocks sequentially until they are worn and then replace them | 06:04 |
| SpeedEvil | In principle | 06:04 |
| SpeedEvil | cehteh: The hard part is remembering which block is which without doing a media-wide scan. | 06:05 |
| ShadowJK | cehteh, you would if you had the CPU and RAM :-) | 06:05 |
| Primes | in some implementation, single bit error detection AND correction, it multibit only detect errors can't correct. like hamming coding used for teletext bit recovery | 06:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Hence they 'zone' the disk into thousand block or so. | 06:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Primes: The ECC can correct and detect multibit errors. | 06:05 |
| cehteh | Primes: advanced ECC is quite smart and people building this devices know what errors they expect and tie the algorithms to that | 06:06 |
| Primes | cehteh, because the overwriting to those sectors will not be the same throughout. Hence a good controller may choose to move stuff around | 06:06 |
| cehteh | for example when you know that a worn out cell sticks to some bit or so | 06:06 |
| ShadowJK | cehteh, iirc I once calculated that for a sequential log structured filesystem like that, the intel M25 128 or 256 (I forget which) would use all or most of it's declared 64MByte ram "cache" for the datastructures required to keep track of it all :-) | 06:06 |
| cehteh | maybe :) | 06:07 |
| Primes | I guess it can speedevil, but when we say multibit, is it 2 or is it 20 bit error run? | 06:07 |
| SpeedEvil | Lots | 06:07 |
| SpeedEvil | I vaguely recall it's around 1% ECC bits | 06:08 |
| Primes | caching reads is fine, caching writes is dangerous unless you have a good UPS, battery backed raid controller, ideally battery backed cache ram by power or supercapacitors | 06:08 |
| Termana | good morning | 06:09 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah that's what I'm saying, they're not using that massive ram for caching | 06:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Caching writes being dangerous only makes sense if you have applications that do the right thing. | 06:09 |
| cehteh | i wonder if at least for SSD some big capacitor would work to buffer power glitches and purge some emergency stuff to the flash | 06:10 |
| SpeedEvil | Otherwise, you can't assume that you can simply stop the CPU, and the drive will contain a sane filesystem or files. | 06:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: sure | 06:10 |
| cehteh | well at the beginning of this year i made a SSD odyssey .. trying serveral ones each one broken in different ways | 06:10 |
| cehteh | until i finally found a reliable (and extra expensive) one | 06:11 |
| Primes | cehteh, yes commercial products do this using capacitor, supercapacitor. You're holding up the ram long enough to dump the content to some flash | 06:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: a 100uF at 350V on a SPSU input that works down to 100V | 06:11 |
| cehteh | i was more thinking about a goldcap directly inside the ssd | 06:11 |
| cehteh | (to dump its own buffers) | 06:11 |
| cehteh | but prolly that isnt feasible | 06:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: won't work as those circuits are designed to work with a certain VDD | 06:12 |
| Primes | cehteh I have some of those gigabyte i-ram drives, they are DDR ram, with battery backup. But batteries need replacing, whereas supercapacitors don't ;-) | 06:12 |
| cehteh | yeah | 06:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: you could charge a goldcap with a step-up converter, and on power glitch enable the LDR to provide 5V | 06:13 |
| cehteh | something like that .. dunno at what voltage flash runs internally maybe as low as 3.3V nowadays? | 06:14 |
| SpeedEvil | 1.8 or lower | 06:14 |
| Primes | you can shift the voltage pretty easily | 06:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | on whatever voltage it runs, it will get exactly that voltage via the power supply, as you don't have regulators on those components | 06:15 |
| Primes | acard make a nice ANS-9010, it's DDR2 based SSD which is backed by battery. If power fails the battery keeps the content while it copies content onto a compact flash card. | 06:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | so no matter how large your capacitor, it will drop below the regular voltage in no time | 06:16 |
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| * SpeedEvil holds up a 330F cap. | 06:16 | |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL | 06:16 |
| Primes | use charge pumping to reach and maintain the target voltage ;-) | 06:17 |
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| Primes | also consider parallel/series configurations. Some people didn't want single point of failure | 06:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, allow 2% (assuming the PSU has a precision of +-3% while component tolerates +-5%), then you can calculate how long it takes to make that capacitor drop by those 2% at a given current drawn | 06:18 |
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| Primes | DocScrutinizer, battery voltage varies over time too | 06:19 |
| SpeedEvil | Battery voltage is decoupled from component voltages by internal PSUs | 06:19 |
| Primes | so, why not just take the capacitor output and regulate it to the target? | 06:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's exactly what I suggested | 06:20 |
| Primes | It's funny how a 3.3 or 5v powered device, can derive +12 and -12v to drive RS232. Maybe you could take a similar approach lol | 06:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | max232 | 06:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 06:22 |
| Primes | lol and it's variants ;-) | 06:22 |
| ShadowJK | and the N900 can produce 5V on USB from its 3.7V battery :P | 06:23 |
| Primes | IF you hack it for usb host mode ;-) | 06:23 |
| jiero | what?! | 06:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, with a step-up converter | 06:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | jiero: what what? | 06:23 |
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| jiero | DocScrutinizer N900 can produce 5V on USB from its 3.7V battery | 06:24 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 06:24 |
| Primes | yes it can ;-) | 06:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | jiero: how else should h-e-n work | 06:24 |
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| Primes | but they wanted to fasttrack the approvals to get the device to market so it is officially usb slave mode | 06:25 |
| jiero | I have no knowledge about those... | 06:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | errr somewhat, yes | 06:25 |
| jiero | Better just watch | 06:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~hostmode | 06:25 |
| infobot | rumour has it, hostmode is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232 | 06:25 |
| * DocScrutinizer burps | 06:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer | ~xyawn | 06:27 |
| infobot | from memory, xyawn is sleep | 06:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm | 06:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | gnite | 06:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~botsnack | 06:27 |
| infobot | thanks, DocScrutinizer | 06:27 |
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| Primes | I have a couple more questions about my maemo5. First , on the status item just right of the green battery, I have a bluetooth icon, and TWO level meters that might be for wifi, was it some wifi measuring app I installed? | 06:36 |
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| ShadowJK | probably | 06:37 |
| Primes | Secondly, is it possible to get cell tower ID and strength measurements from the phone subsystem, without r and d mode? | 06:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Or cpu-mem applet | 06:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Primes: you can't get them for unconnected towers | 06:37 |
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| ShadowJK | with or without rd | 06:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Otherwise - install 'netmon' for connected | 06:38 |
| Primes | I mean when I turn on GPRS or 3G data, then I'm connected to a cell tower, can't I get some info on it, maybe using a command or app? My 3G wifi mifi dongle gives this in the web interface | 06:38 |
| SpeedEvil | see netmon | 06:39 |
| Primes | Netmon is an app? | 06:40 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 06:40 |
| SpeedEvil | http://maemo.org/packages/view/netmon/ | 06:40 |
| Primes | "Displays Signal Strength in dBm, Cell ID, LAC, RNC, Network Code, etc." yup, that's the stuff | 06:41 |
| Primes | I worked for several telecomms companies, I thought a hacker phone should have such capability | 06:42 |
| Primes | the cpu-mem applet I loaded is like a widget showing 3% and 136MB. That seems different to these bars to the right of the battery status. Are those there on yours or is it unusual because I installed something | 06:44 |
| SpeedEvil | no | 06:45 |
| SpeedEvil | disk space? | 06:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Go to app-installer then uninstall | 06:45 |
| SpeedEvil | to see what's there | 06:45 |
| Primes | there are two of these things. Each one is a grey dot, with two white dots to the right of it. Sometimes it might draw some red also? | 06:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Don't know - look to see what you've installed. | 06:46 |
| SpeedEvil | AFK - sleep | 06:46 |
| Primes | I looked hard, still working on it | 06:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | Load applet is the name | 06:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | comes with screenshot in system status menu | 06:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | I always thought load applet should come per default, as it's as important to understand your phone as is the motor temperature and RPM display in your car | 06:50 |
| Primes | cpumem-applet uninstalled. one of those bar things is gone now, one remains | 06:50 |
| Primes | that's what htop is for lol | 06:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | load applet - keep it! | 06:51 |
| Primes | I like the one showing the little microchip, it's those little mini bars I don't like | 06:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS, whe your device becomes unresponsive, the you won't start htop to find out why - you can't | 06:52 |
| ShadowJK | Lots of cars lack rpm display :) | 06:52 |
| Primes | if I already had it running, I don't need to start it | 06:52 |
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| Primes | I drove the nissan leaf electric car recently, it can be remote startup heater and diagnostics from a smartphone | 06:53 |
| ShadowJK | My biggest issue with load applet was that it didn't distinguish between CPU use and iowait. People stare at it and said "ZOMG i need to overclock!!" | 06:54 |
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| ShadowJK | maybe it was fixed | 06:59 |
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| Primes | ok I got rid of the second tickbar thing. It was the load applet that can do screenshots. I like the screenshot capability but don't want those bars things. | 07:02 |
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| ShadowJK | ctrl-shift-p takes screenshot | 07:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | and unlike harmattan, it works any time | 07:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I mean how terribly must they have messed up things to get a formerly global shortcut neutered to only work in MTF apps | 07:14 |
| cehteh | how do you ctrl-shift-p on a virtual keyboard? .. hey how does one work with emacs on a virtual keyboard? :) | 07:15 |
| ShadowJK | well keyboard shortcuts aren't that relevant on harmattan ;p | 07:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS | 07:16 |
| ShadowJK | One could even argue that any function or feature that is only sanely accessible from hwkb is a bug in harmattan | 07:17 |
| Primes | ok thanks for the tip, I wrote down CTRL shift p | 07:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | bullshit!!! | 07:17 |
| Primes | Maybe call it a "feature" rather than a bug | 07:17 |
| ShadowJK | As there wont be a keyboard, requiring a keyboard is a bug ;p | 07:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | next you'll declare HID profile of BT a bug | 07:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | seriously, sometimes it pisses me off | 07:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | gnite | 07:20 |
| ShadowJK | The lack of keyboard pisses me off more, and then I'll really get pissed off if there's lots of shit that needs the nonexistant keyboard | 07:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | oh yeah, so better keep the shit but disable the kbd shortcut - get a brain!! | 07:21 |
| ShadowJK | And dragging a table, phonestand and bt keyboard with you isn't only very slow way of accessing hwkb, it's also not very practical :) | 07:22 |
| Primes | "to access advanced screen capture features using obscure keyboard combinations, please attach your usb or bluetooth keyboard" Simples | 07:22 |
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| Primes | those laser projection bluetooth keyboards do look rather cool though | 07:23 |
| * ShadowJK would make a bet that bt hid wont be supported and Aegis will make sure it'll never be supported ;p | 07:23 | |
| Primes | who can tell me where in the app manager is located nano text editor I don't seem to find it now | 07:24 |
| ShadowJK | I think you need to apt-get it | 07:25 |
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| ShadowJK | bin app manager I'd just view the everything category and start typing nano | 07:25 |
| Primes | well shadow, it appeared before, but would not install said it was missing some file, which I guess I need apt get to obtain that file, but I can't say what file because now I can't locate the app install?? | 07:26 |
| ShadowJK | uh | 07:26 |
| Primes | Ah it is under GNU nano | 07:27 |
| Primes | Problems: Application packages missing: libncursesw5 (>=5.7+20081213-1.maemo1+0m5) | 07:28 |
| Primes | I like nano, it's easy to use, unlike vim | 07:28 |
| Primes | and whereas leafpad looks a little too simple for me | 07:29 |
| cehteh | there is a emacs for the n900 :P | 07:29 |
| cehteh | but you have to remap some keys to make it useable | 07:29 |
| Primes | I remember the days of IBM Xedit under VM/CMS | 07:29 |
| SpeedEvil | I remember the days of programming using diode arrays. | 07:30 |
| SpeedEvil | (it was 1988, I had lots of diodes) | 07:30 |
| Primes | I had a machine with 1Kbyte ram, in 1981 | 07:31 |
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| SpeedEvil | zx81 here too | 07:31 |
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| Primes | Two zx81s, and a 16k rampack. And a schoolfriend who built a zx80 from kit form | 07:31 |
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| jonwil | I think the closest I have come to development for anything funky would be the time I did some 65816 ASM | 07:32 |
| * jonwil waits for people to ask what a 65816 is :P | 07:32 | |
| Primes | I did z80A, 6502, 6809, 8086, PIC assembler | 07:32 |
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| jonwil | The 65816 was the 16-bit sequal to the 6502 | 07:32 |
| Primes | What is this number of which you speak? | 07:32 |
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| jonwil | It was used in, among other things, the Apple IIGS | 07:33 |
| Primes | I can haz Arduino? | 07:33 |
| jonwil | and the Super Nintendo | 07:33 |
| jonwil | which is where my interest came in | 07:33 |
| Primes | right , I have an old super nintendo, NTSC version | 07:34 |
| jonwil | the 65816 is the CPU in the SNES | 07:34 |
| Primes | I bought a PS3, as a "cheap" cell development system (cheaper than the 20K Mercury). Unfortunately Sony removed the other linux OS option. | 07:34 |
| jonwil | There are hacks out there that let you bring OtherOS back | 07:35 |
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| jonwil | not authorized by Sony obviously | 07:36 |
| jonwil | but usable | 07:36 |
| Primes | yes, but I miss out on other features maybe like gaming , 3d blueray playback. The better FP version of cell is now used in some IBM bladecenter blade | 07:37 |
| jonwil | No you dont miss out on the other features | 07:37 |
| jonwil | You can install the hack and keep your games and bluray | 07:37 |
| Primes | but now, with the help of FPGAs and opencores, we can just make our own cpus | 07:37 |
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| Primes | I think recent games try to update/validate the firmware, or gaming on the PSN may also | 07:38 |
| jonwil | I think the 65000 is the nicest architecture I have experienced with | 07:38 |
| jonwil | and ARM is the worst | 07:38 |
| Primes | transputer: ahead of its time | 07:39 |
| Primes | clearspeed accelerators, nice | 07:39 |
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| * jonwil wishes IBM had picked the 65000 instead of the 8086 for the PC | 07:40 | |
| Primes | hey even Xilinx making an FPGA combined with a cortex A9. | 07:40 |
| Primes | just thinking of the savings of documentation textbooks. If IBM chose the Z80A, I could have just kept with my Rodney Zacks bible | 07:41 |
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| Primes | I'm in the local linux user group, my preferred distro is opensuse where we have YAST. But can I install libncursesw5 from apt get? | 07:42 |
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| Primes | I blame Geohot as well as Sony for the removal of OtherOS. He is not innocent, he should have kept to hacking iphones if he could not keep his mouth shut and think of the consequences | 07:44 |
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| ShadowJK | it'd be installed automatically if available | 07:47 |
| Primes | This should be PR1.3 like most. Installing GNU nano says "Unable to install GNU nano. Some application packages required for the installation are missing. | 07:48 |
| Primes | So does anyone have nano installed and working? If the ncurses is missing, can I get it? | 07:49 |
| Primes | I'm not Debian person (yet) | 07:49 |
| ShadowJK | Try enabling sdk tools repo | 07:50 |
| Primes | And this is done in app manager: application catalogs: NEW ..... | 07:51 |
| cehteh | Primes: n900? | 07:52 |
| Primes | yes n900 | 07:52 |
| cehteh | i have nano installed and no problems | 07:52 |
| cehteh | since some days i also have a chroot on the device with the sdk .. nice feel :P | 07:52 |
| cehteh | nano is secondary editor after emacs :P | 07:53 |
| ShadowJK | http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free | 07:53 |
| Primes | for now I only have nokia apps, nokia system software updates, ovi, maemo.org catalogs | 07:54 |
| cehteh | you do it in a chroot right? | 07:54 |
| cehteh | sdk on the main installation likely will break because the sdk isnt optified | 07:55 |
| Primes | you're "loosing" me | 07:55 |
| cehteh | uh oh :P | 07:56 |
| ShadowJK | cehteh, he just wants to have nano | 07:56 |
| cehteh | ah ok | 07:56 |
| ShadowJK | afaik | 07:56 |
| Primes | Later I will try all the sdk wizardry | 07:56 |
| cehteh | wherent there 2 nano packages (or more) | 07:56 |
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| ShadowJK | they all seem to depend on libncurses in sdk tools? | 07:57 |
| Primes | I only see "GNU nano" in the app manager, with a missing dependency. Yes I want to fix this to get nano. It's a learning exercise. Something else had something missing too, so if I can learn how to find and get, then I can overcome that too | 07:57 |
| cehteh | nano-opt - GNU nano - an enhanced clone of the Pico text editor. | 07:57 |
| Primes | yes I like pico and nano on desktop linux | 07:58 |
| cehteh | Primes: you need extras enabled | 07:58 |
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| dm8tbr | http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras | 07:58 |
| cehteh | (i think?... dunno i always have :P) | 07:58 |
| cehteh | there where/is an older broken nano package | 07:59 |
| Primes | and, when adding the catalogue (repository) what should I enter for the distribution name? | 08:00 |
| ShadowJK | he wouldn't see nano at all in ham if he didn't have extras enabled | 08:00 |
| cehteh | ShadowJK: there are about 3 or more nano packages | 08:01 |
| cehteh | i dont know from which repo they all comme | 08:01 |
| cehteh | extras testing tools .. wtf :P | 08:01 |
| ShadowJK | all the ones i see have same dependencies | 08:01 |
| cehteh | i just can assert that i have a working nano here | 08:01 |
| Primes | no, that's not it, EXTRAS is already as one of my 4 catalogs | 08:01 |
| Primes | thankyou for your assertion cehteh, it gives me hope | 08:02 |
| cehteh | (working since 1 year or longer ...) | 08:02 |
| cehteh | in the beginning there was a nano which segfaulted when you used the search function | 08:02 |
| cehteh | Primes: maybe enable testing and tools too | 08:03 |
| Primes | lol but the option to show line numbers is nice and useful | 08:03 |
| Primes | cehteh, so you have more than 4 catalogs configured? | 08:03 |
| cehteh | deb http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/ fremantle free non-free | 08:03 |
| cehteh | i am just checking .. only 4 | 08:04 |
| cehteh | i once had more (wtf, where did they go) | 08:04 |
| ShadowJK | community-testing? wtf is that? | 08:04 |
| cehteh | http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository | 08:04 |
| cehteh | ShadowJK: somehow i ask myself how that made it into that | 08:05 |
| Primes | I think it goes into devel the raw stuff then approved into testing, then migrates into the production version | 08:05 |
| cehteh | also i dont know if fapman using those | 08:05 |
| cehteh | lemme check fapman | 08:05 |
| cehteh | yeah in fapman i have extras-testing | 08:06 |
| cehteh | and devel | 08:06 |
| cehteh | extras-devel | 08:06 |
| ShadowJK | it's not listed on the wikipage | 08:07 |
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| cehteh | strange .. i dont know where that comes from .. i rarely use HAM | 08:07 |
| cehteh | but it exists :P | 08:08 |
| casketizer | isnt that the cssu repo? | 08:09 |
| ShadowJK | this seems relevant http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 | 08:09 |
| cehteh | could be | 08:09 |
| casketizer | the installer installs it in ham | 08:09 |
| cehteh | ah yes | 08:09 |
| casketizer | fap has seperate repo list, it dont use apt's | 08:09 |
| casketizer | ham uses apt's | 08:09 |
| cehteh | where does fapman keep its configs? | 08:10 |
| casketizer | in /root/.fapman | 08:10 |
| Primes | do you have devtools repository loaded? Looks like nice things like traceroute there for me | 08:10 |
| cehteh | ah | 08:10 |
| cehteh | thanks | 08:10 |
| casketizer | traceroute is in sdk repo | 08:11 |
| casketizer | i have added sdk repo in fapman for stuff like it and gawk | 08:11 |
| ShadowJK | looks like this devtools repo is a sanitized version of sdk tools? | 08:11 |
| ShadowJK | if it isnt the same | 08:11 |
| casketizer | its a subset i think | 08:12 |
| casketizer | not sure | 08:12 |
| casketizer | i aded sdk and sdk tools in fap | 08:12 |
| cehteh | be careful with sdk .. there are huge not optified packages | 08:13 |
| casketizer | on 2nd thot i think devtools is sdk tools | 08:13 |
| casketizer | ceteh yeah i know | 08:14 |
| casketizer | i only use it for small things like gawk, tracert etc | 08:14 |
| cehteh | thats why i saied, put it in a chroot .. | 08:14 |
| casketizer | i have 44mb free rootfs | 08:14 |
| cehteh | well i just installed ful blown stuff | 08:15 |
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| cehteh | git self-build, ccache, linux .git checkout ... | 08:15 |
| casketizer | i manually optified and MyDocsified tons of stuff | 08:15 |
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| casketizer | i had gcc and tcc running without chroot and 34mb free rootfs before last flash | 08:16 |
| casketizer | havent reinstalled it yet tho | 08:16 |
| cehteh | how is tcc on the n900 | 08:16 |
| Primes | I will be planning on gcc sooner or later, just taking baby steps now | 08:16 |
| cehteh | i tried once on the main but devel libs where missing :P | 08:16 |
| casketizer | tcc linker sux | 08:16 |
| cehteh | ok | 08:17 |
| SpeedEvil | There is only one sane solution to cross-compiling the kernel. | 08:17 |
| SpeedEvil | http://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html | 08:17 |
| cehteh | haha | 08:17 |
| casketizer | if u write stuff with math functions or so u need to link with gnu linker | 08:17 |
| cehteh | ok | 08:17 |
| cehteh | well i have gcc anways now | 08:17 |
| casketizer | tcc linker doesnt handle the arm fpu stuff | 08:17 |
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| cehteh | also i tried to compile luajit which worked with little efforts | 08:18 |
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| cehteh | next time i make that ready to push it upstream | 08:18 |
| Primes | "it can compile and run a typical Linux kernel in less than 15 seconds on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4", was the kernel less verbose back in 2004? | 08:19 |
| cehteh | luajit would be awesome .. its so much faster than python | 08:19 |
| cehteh | huh | 08:19 |
| casketizer | if i dont get my linux box back soon and with it scratchbox ill reinstall gcc too | 08:19 |
| cehteh | i can remember kernel compiles in 90 seconds on my dual p2 back in time | 08:19 |
| casketizer | i can remember kernel 2.0.29 taking 10min on a P66 | 08:20 |
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| casketizer | err P60 | 08:20 |
| cehteh | heh my first pentium was a 133 or so | 08:21 |
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| cehteh | before i had an amiga | 08:21 |
| casketizer | that was my second | 08:21 |
| casketizer | i had a 486/33 later upgraded to dx4-100 before the p60 | 08:22 |
| casketizer | before that amiga | 08:22 |
| casketizer | before that c64 and c128 | 08:22 |
| cehteh | what a shock .. amiga with a 8mhz cpu worked more responsive than windows nt 3.51 on a pentium1 with 133Mhz | 08:22 |
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| cehteh | cant even remember how much ram my first pentium had .. 32MB? .. no idea | 08:23 |
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| casketizer | i had nt4 for a while on a p2 300 @ 450 | 08:23 |
| casketizer | i had one of those 450 relabled as 300 due to 300 shortages, lucky :) | 08:24 |
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| casketizer | i think my p60 had 32 gb | 08:24 |
| casketizer | my 486 had 16 and much later 64 | 08:25 |
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| casketizer | i used that 486 til 2006 | 08:26 |
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| casketizer | ran linux ipcop from 2000-06 | 08:26 |
| casketizer | but then my line got too fast for it | 08:27 |
| Primes | well I think I got the devtools repo setup in app manager. Now to have the traceroute app, I need to xterm, sudo gainroot, apt-get install traceroute ? ? | 08:35 |
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| casketizer | yep | 08:42 |
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| casketizer | or simply download it and dpkg -i it | 08:42 |
| Primes | when I apt-get install traceroute, I get warning: the following packages cannot be authenticated! traceroute. Install these packages without verification Y/N ....... would this be a good idea? | 08:42 |
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| casketizer | its no prob | 08:43 |
| Primes | so it is normal to say yes? | 08:43 |
| casketizer | yea | 08:43 |
| Primes | is it result of some key or codesigning? | 08:44 |
| casketizer | yea | 08:44 |
| Primes | and this is not result of some version mismatch? | 08:44 |
| casketizer | if u check fapman logs u see it all the time in extras-dev | 08:44 |
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| casketizer | its some broken ssl certificate | 08:45 |
| Primes | I never ever heard of fapman I have no clue what it does. I used yast in suse, occasionally stuff from rpm | 08:45 |
| casketizer | faster application manager | 08:45 |
| Primes | apt-get seems closer to my experience | 08:45 |
| casketizer | btw i dont recommend leaving devtools enabled in ham | 08:45 |
| casketizer | just enable it when u need it | 08:45 |
| Primes | I know to temporarily enable, load uboot then disable when heading towards meego dualboot | 08:46 |
| casketizer | just uncheck the enabled thing in ham | 08:46 |
| casketizer | after u installed tracert | 08:46 |
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| casketizer | need to go bbl | 08:46 |
| Primes | I now have a working traceroute command. This rocks | 08:47 |
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| slonopotamus | cssu camera app always says there's no free space when trying to make a shot. any workarounds/fixes? | 08:48 |
| ruskie | but there is? | 08:49 |
| slonopotamus | sure | 08:49 |
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| Primes | Thanks for your help casketizer, I disabled the new repo for now. | 08:58 |
| Primes | nano is working, that was my objective | 08:58 |
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| robbiethe1st | Ooh, cool! http://www.dealextreme.com/p/i-smartsim-2008-sim-card-unlock-attachment-for-nokia-and-most-other-cell-phones-12167 | 10:51 |
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| psycho_oreos | N95 was listed as unsupported (no signal/cellular connectivity), I'm guessing N900 would probably do the same | 11:00 |
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| robbiethe1st | huh | 11:01 |
| Mek | are there any simlocked n900's in existence? Okay, there will probably be plenty of N9's simlocked | 11:01 |
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| dm8tbr | the size of this sim thing is 'mini' so it won't work with 'micro' e.g. N9 | 11:04 |
| psycho_oreos | have a look at some of the user's/reviewers comments on the same page :) | 11:04 |
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| Mek | ah yeah | 11:05 |
| Mek | so seems rather useless for anything maemo :) | 11:05 |
| psycho_oreos | what? | 11:06 |
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| RST38h | http://cordiatab.com ! | 11:10 |
| psycho_oreos | seems like there's a fair few areas of that wiki (belonging to cordiatab) site needs to be fleshed out :p there's SIM slot but no specifications on bands it could operate, and 802.11b/g ? wtf... | 11:17 |
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| dm8tbr | RST38h: yeah, smoku's baby :) | 11:21 |
| RST38h | smoku is good, very good =) | 11:22 |
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| B4byh4ck | Hi | 12:11 |
| nicofs | Does anyone know how to create a custom image for easy debian? | 12:12 |
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| lcuk | nicofs, qole does | 12:17 |
| nicofs | lcuk, how can i talk to him...? | 12:18 |
| lcuk | nicofs, he is asleep most likely now | 12:21 |
| lcuk | (based in Canada) | 12:21 |
| lcuk | email I guess would work | 12:21 |
| lcuk | :) | 12:21 |
| lcuk | or start a thread | 12:21 |
| lcuk | and mail him the link | 12:21 |
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| nicofs | lcuk, that thread thing would be best in case others want to do the same... | 12:22 |
| Hurrian | hmm, anyone used ramz on power48? | 12:23 |
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| Sicelo | i've just been reading my logs here... Load Applet displays cpu and mem usage on the left of the camera things. if i click that icon, i get some kind of menu in the background, with Item 1 to Item 4. this doesn't seem to work. anything i'm doing wrong, or it works this way for everyone else? | 12:55 |
| Corsac | hmhm, was there any news about n9 during the last two weeks (was in vac) | 12:56 |
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| SpeedEvil | Corsac: no | 13:21 |
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| SpeedEvil | Sicelo: screenshot? | 13:21 |
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| Sicelo | just a sec | 13:23 |
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| ruskie | http://www.reghardware.com/2011/07/26/mozilla_plans_open_source_mobile_os/ <-- and finally it's revealed... | 13:27 |
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| Sicelo | SpeedEvil: http://ssh.bombshellz.net/~qhubekela/load_applet.jpg | 13:32 |
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| Hurrian | ohai Pali | 13:51 |
| Pali | hello | 13:51 |
| Hurrian | Pali , how do I get compcache working in power48? | 13:52 |
| Pali | I do not know - I did not tested it yet | 13:52 |
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| Hurrian | ah | 13:52 |
| Pali | I only integrated kernel patch | 13:53 |
| Hurrian | i'll ask tigerite then | 13:53 |
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| Hurrian | hmm, what's broken about multiboot is not wearing out rw cycles, it's about NOT WRITING THE KERNEL to the MTD partition PROPERLY | 13:57 |
| Hurrian | onenand has so many rw cycles per EB, more kernels than you would ever normally flash | 13:57 |
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| vi__ | hello | 14:12 |
| Cor-Ai | olleh | 14:13 |
| vi__ | is there ANY PDF reader that allows for FULLscreen reading on the n900? | 14:13 |
| Sicelo | evince | 14:13 |
| vi__ | evince: cannot get rid of scrollbar | 14:13 |
| Arkenoi | (..and remembers the file position) | 14:14 |
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| SpeedEvil | Sicelo: Look at the apps you have installed | 14:19 |
| SpeedEvil | Sicelo: Read the about pages of all of them | 14:20 |
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| vi__ | so there is literally NO PDF reader that can go fullscreen? | 14:27 |
| vi__ | fucking hell. | 14:27 |
| Arkenoi | and no decent reflow either | 14:27 |
| Arkenoi | and no position saving | 14:28 |
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| Sicelo | i think i see my mistake. maemo5-load-applet vs. load-applet | 14:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer | moo, or not: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1058571&postcount=72 | 16:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | un_abill OMG | 16:11 |
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| Hurrian | owch | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | nail varnish cleaner - SUUUURE, as this crap has 30% oil and 70% acetone, the oil is to keep your nails alive | 16:15 |
| Hurrian | docscrutinizer , wrong channel? | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | and telling somebody wo *completely messed up* due to incompetence (no accuse, just a fact) to clean up and start all over in a better way... DANG what a sound rationale | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: why? | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | is tmo bashing not allowed here anymore? | 16:17 |
| Hurrian | i meant about the nail varnish cleaner | 16:17 |
| Hurrian | didnt see that in the thread | 16:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | read the today's last 3 pages of that thread I linked above and you'll get the context | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | maximuscool suggested to use nail varnish remover to clean the PCB | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-O | 16:19 |
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| Hurrian | LOL WUT | 16:19 |
| Hurrian | how are you supposed to apply that, a cotton tip (BAD IDEA) | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | two fools talking a third err noob (maybe too harsh to call him a fool as well) into completely destroying his N900 | 16:20 |
| Hurrian | abill_uk: I will not share my mods for a few reasons because they are not easy and would never want people to destroy the pcb alltogether. | 16:20 |
| Hurrian | uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | UHUH | 16:21 |
| Hurrian | instructions on how to destroy your {INTERNET_TABLET_DEVICE} have been out on maemo.org for a very very long time | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | ROTFL | 16:21 |
| Hurrian | in fact, let's call it forum.internettablettalk.com | 16:21 |
| serkamil_ | hi | 16:21 |
| Hurrian | constant exposure to F.ITT can also cause damage to your brain | 16:22 |
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| Hurrian | abill_uk: you MUST have as long as possible a pointed round tip | 16:23 |
| Hurrian | wut | 16:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | this guy is so completely off any rail: >>abil_uk: Well done luketanti for showing how the N900 can be kept standard without the need for wireing mods that involve software limitations.<< | 16:25 |
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| Hurrian | software limitations? | 16:26 |
| Hurrian | oh what the | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: PLEASE ban this abil_uk!!! He's again in same thread as me - mayor offense!! | 16:27 |
| Hurrian | abill_uk's gone deeper down the crapper after the community rant thread | 16:27 |
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| * DocScrutinizer fetching popcorn and waiting for ""SOB! it fell off *AGAIN*"" | 16:28 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | also "HLP PLZ! flasher *always* quits with -101 transmission error" | 16:29 |
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| Hurrian | a lot of people really don't know how to read, don't they? | 16:29 |
| Hurrian | first, windows is shit for flashing (lol libusb) | 16:30 |
| Hurrian | second, emmc and rootfs -- the order doesn't matter, as long as you -R after the second image | 16:30 |
| Hurrian | third, unless you damaged MTD EB or wiped mtd1, it never bricks | 16:31 |
| Hurrian | heck, even if you wipe mtd1 you can still bring it back | 16:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | in this particular case though I'm *not* going to answer "get a _good_ USB cable! What? Oh too bad then, get a better _internal_ USB wiring" | 16:31 |
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| Hurrian | docscrutinizer, even better -- make everyone use the flashing-jig-battery-thing for flashing | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: (wipe mtd1/CAL) you verified that? you ever recovered from that? | 16:32 |
| Hurrian | docscrutinizer, nope, just assuming, as someone said the omap3 SOC ROM always pulls code from USB | 16:33 |
| Hurrian | then again, no one knows how to make a mtd1/CAL area from scratch | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | it does, yes. But it seems impossible for flasher to restore CAL as CAL is unique per device | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's probably a reason why newest flasher-3.5.11(?) has --cal-restore <file> option | 16:35 |
| Hurrian | yup, found it interesting | 16:35 |
| Kaadlajk | harmattan flasher can backup all the certs | 16:35 |
| Hurrian | someone needs to finish up that open flasher | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: you seen my comments about mtd_debug command? | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | Kaadlajk: indeed, keeping/getting 0xFFFF up to date was a nice plan, alas it seems nobody is picking up on it | 16:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | err | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: ^^^ | 16:37 |
| Hurrian | uhh, not yet | 16:37 |
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| jonwil | The question is, can you actually read CAL area via bootloader/flasher interface on N900? | 16:42 |
| GNUtoo|laptop | yes, 0xFFFF even decodes it | 16:44 |
| GNUtoo|laptop | but not totally | 16:44 |
| x29a | hey folks, whats the dealio with long double on arm (alias l-functions from math.h on fremantle for the n900)? im trying to port some software which heavily uses fabsl and so on | 16:44 |
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| GNUtoo|laptop | it only shows the different sections | 16:44 |
| x29a | is there a way to get long double support into the toolchain or do i have to alter the sourcecode? | 16:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | x29a: just out of interest - what's that app that needs long double datatypes to do those extremely nifty high precision calculations? | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | navigation on board of next voyager deep space probe? | 16:53 |
| x29a | first 3 words are correct | 16:54 |
| x29a | its a navigation software | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | or maybe just orbiter simulation | 16:54 |
| ShadowJK | I'd be somewhat shocked if nasa used floating point | 16:54 |
| ShadowJK | iirc long double has resolution on the metres scale in solar system scale | 16:55 |
| lcuk | NASA use orbital point. | 16:55 |
| x29a | docscrutinizer: from your reaction i read, its not possible? i assume the arm processor just cant handle more? is there a wrapper or pseudefunction or something i could introtruce so i dont have to alter all the source? | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: way better I guess | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | x29a: I just know you're supposed to convert your real/float based audio processing to 32bit integer, for handheld, for performance reasons | 16:56 |
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| x29a | i fear the consequence: rewriting the code | 16:57 |
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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, not only that, but floating point gives you different results everywhere | 16:58 |
| ShadowJK | So if you want bit-exact you need integer | 16:58 |
| crashanddie_ | A few months ago, I explained another dev at the company that comparing floats was a bad idea. You can't know for sure that (1.5 * 10) == 15. | 16:59 |
| crashanddie_ | I just had to explain to him again. He forgot. | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, if the original author was lazy or incompetent enough to not consider how much precision he actually needs on each single arithmetic operation, and also wasn't familiar with fixed-point arithmetic, then yes you probably need to clean up the lazy approach he took that only works due to recent processors implementing floating point coprocessors for the lazy coders | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | "long double is only guaranteed to be as long as double, but may be | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | longer. Even on i386 it is really only 80 bits, even though you'd | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | think it should be 128 bits. On ARM we use soft floating point, so | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | long double is folded into double. There may be away to have 128-bit | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | floating point support, but nobody has climbed that hill for ARM or | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | for MIPS. | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | " | 16:59 |
| ShadowJK | oops | 16:59 |
| x29a | ShadowJK: can you name the source for that quotation? | 17:00 |
| ShadowJK | oh it was in some freebsd mailing list | 17:00 |
| crashanddie_ | http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arm/2010-March/002323.html | 17:00 |
| x29a | thanks | 17:01 |
| ruskie | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07/26/allot_annual_data/ <-- hahahaha so basically they don't want people using mobile data in the end... | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | we (my IT possee) always claimed "if you can't do it in fixed point integer arithmetic, it's most probably not worth getting done at all" | 17:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | which on a meta level means: if you don't know how to do it in integer, you have a lack of knowledge, as every task can get solved with fixed point (simplified rule of thumb) | 17:03 |
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| ShadowJK | Well I always thought that if I wanted to do something where I need a precision of X, like millimetres on a global scale, I'd look at how many millimeters there are on a global scale, and use an integer big enough... | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+2^64+millimeter+to+lightyears | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | result: 1.95ly | 17:07 |
| ShadowJK | http://www.christian-seiler.de/projekte/fpmath/ | 17:07 |
| Corsac | http://blog.cihar.com/archives/2011/07/26/first-meego-application/ | 17:08 |
| Corsac | nice | 17:08 |
| hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer: your N900 died? | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, why? | 17:09 |
| hiemanshu | saw a post about it, so was wondering | 17:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | luketanti was about to kill his N900, to practice SMT soldering | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | and to find out a mix of 30% castor oil 1% pantenol and 69% acetone is not suited to clean PCBA prior to soldering | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | un_abill_uk and maximuscool helping him with suggesting such weird stuff like nail varnish remover | 17:13 |
| crashanddie_ | DocScrutinizer, more fun: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+%28%28%282^10%29^10%29^10%29^10+femtometer+to+astronomical+unit | 17:13 |
| crashanddie_ | DocScrutinizer, look at the "diameter of the observable universe" figure. | 17:13 |
| crashanddie_ | I wonder how many libraries of congress that is. | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | crashanddie_: what's the rationale behind that calculation? a binary integer datatype with 10^10^10^10 aka 10,000 bit? | 17:15 |
| crashanddie_ | None whatsoever. | 17:16 |
| x29a | is there a different way to port a qt based application to the n900 then using the QtSDK? is the sandbox approach still up2date? | 17:16 |
| crashanddie_ | still what, sorry? | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, with a 32bit unsigned integer you get cm precision on earth surface coords | 17:17 |
| crashanddie_ | Yet it can't count over a century worth of seconds. | 17:18 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: link please | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | x29a: yes | 17:18 |
| chem|st | crashanddie_: DocScrutinizer hello btw! | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+2^32+centimeter+to+kilometer&asynchronous=false&equal=Submit | 17:18 |
| chem|st | oh and ShadowJK and ruskie ar around aswell^^ | 17:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: ooh, about abill_uk :-D just kidding | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: and hi! :-) | 17:19 |
| x29a | crashanddie_: up to date | 17:19 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: I was already pissed as he was the first report I read after a while.. | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: anyway: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71414&page=8 | 17:20 |
| Corsac | DocScrutinizer: http://www.google.com/search?q=speed+of+light+in+angstrom+per+fortnight is nice too | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | two fools talking a third fool into foolish things | 17:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: and abill_uk starting to spread nonsense about USB hostmode once again. But now the whole thread went completely mad, nobody getting a bit of what other persons really said | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | abill_uk is really champion on this discipline | 17:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I can't even bother to answer and correct him | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | CBA is the correct term I guess | 17:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | basically this i**ot teaches me about things I said in similar more detailed word myself a few posts before, and he claims I dod the opposite and that I've been wrong on it - *sigh* what a nut | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | did* | 17:26 |
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| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1058637#post1058637 | 17:26 |
| chem|st | my answer | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 17:27 |
| crashanddie_ | DocScrutinizer, actually, you could probably store to pretty good odds something's cm location on the planet with a single 32bit unsigned, indeed. Something like absolute_distance + ((2^32 | 4007504000) + 2^quadrant) | 17:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hah, seems this post of yours took down tmo, chem|st :-P | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | stalls on F5 | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh, it finished | 17:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | >>Please remember this is not the kind of device you can handle when wiring mods such as the ones your potraying people do as it is meant to be a mobile phone and tacking wires to those pads is far more difficult than soldering the port itself under any circumstances.<< (un_abill) really, what a nut | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | nobody else succeeds in packing that many lies/incorrect_assumptions into one sentence | 17:36 |
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| hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer: they do, they are called 'Microsoft' :P | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol - you made my day - thanks | 17:38 |
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| hiemanshu | DocScrutinizer: lol | 17:39 |
| ysss | They shouldn't be wiring up the psyche wards just to provide 'communication' and online entertainment to the patients.. | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: is there a way to access history of edited tmo posts, or even deleted posts? I seem to recall seeing such a thing once, and also it seems to me a lot of abill_uk's more trolling or offensive posts simply vanished | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe my tmo theme just doesn't show the "edit history" buttons? | 17:43 |
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| ysss | joerg: like versions/revisions? I don't think the list of deleted posts are publicly accessible | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | I've once seen edit history / old versions of a post. Maybe my own post though | 17:51 |
| ysss | You can edit or delete your own post, but I don't remember ever seeing an option to see old version of your posts.... short of on wikis. | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | was sth along the line "click on edit reason" | 17:51 |
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| ysss | that sounds like the 'delete this post' option, you can see that if you 'go advanced' after clicking edit | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://talk.maemo.org/posthistory.php?p=1058571 | 17:52 |
| ysss | ah, i can't see that page. no permission to do so. | 17:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | good | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | so is there a similar thing for deleted posts? | 17:54 |
| ysss | probably just for mods | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 17:54 |
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| ysss | lol abill's goodbye post may be his most thanked post ever | 17:54 |
| ysss | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1058652#post1058653 | 17:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | I should thank too :-P | 17:54 |
| ysss | it's the least we can do :D | 17:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer | is this the news of the day? abill_uk says "Goodbye" http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1058653#post1058653 - nah, maybe just another nifty trick, he knows lots of such tricks | 17:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but according to his reaction to chem|st I guess he will mean it this time - without or with help form mods | 17:58 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: yeah I can see anything, I also see deleted posts and their hist | 17:59 |
| ysss | The average blood pressure of TMO users will certainly go down if this is really happening | 17:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: I just recall I tried to search one of the lengthy original USB hostmode threads for abill_uk's post where he started rant about hostmode never working without hw mod, and I wasn't able to get any hits on the author name abill_uk, and also didn't find the post I searched for | 18:00 |
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| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: myself and other mods have tried to clean the rubbish... so you might not find all rants and discussions with abill... I deleted about 30pages of a 60 pages thread once... or moved it in offtopic | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | so I wondered if he or a mod had deleted all abill_uk posts or sth, and if those posts wouldn't be there nevertheless hidden behind a link | 18:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's kinda hard to proove tmo users behaved nasty in the past when their posts where they did get erradicated | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | (pondering forim theory ;-D ) | 18:04 |
| chem|st | mods still see them... | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | forum* | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever, a day starting with abill_uk always is a wasted day. So I'll try to rescue what's left over and get a walk o/ | 18:05 |
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| mgedmin | DocScrutinizer, have you tried looking at archive.org? | 18:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mgedmin: actually not, thanks for reminding me | 18:14 |
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| lardman | hmm, is it just me or is there a typo in the Qt 4.7 docs: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qdbus.html | 18:20 |
| lardman | I don't seem to be able to include <QDbus> and need to include <QtDbus> | 18:20 |
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| lardman | or perhaps it's changed and I'm not on the latest of course | 18:21 |
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| mgedmin | the desktop fbreader helpfully tries to build a maemo flavour too, and depends on things like libhildon1-dev and libosso-dev... | 18:25 |
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| Jade | hi | 18:40 |
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| ysss | hi | 18:44 |
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| Cor-Ai | hello | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | LOL, following un_abill's posts *of course* inevitably guides you to find other similar trolls on tmo ;-P A quite funny one: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1058671#post1058671 | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | Cor-Ai: hi | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | chem|st: if you feel like making this a banning day: see Cod3rror :-P | 18:55 |
| Cor-Ai | DocScrutinizer: hi :) | 18:56 |
| edheldil | what is h-e-n anyway? | 18:58 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer: not now gotta run^^ but nice idea! | 18:58 |
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| ysss | usb hostmode enabler | 19:00 |
| edheldil | ah, suspected omething like that. Thanks | 19:00 |
| ysss | but you may need a uk engineer to certify your n900 for it first (jk) | 19:00 |
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| ysss | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2011/07/mozilla-eyes-mobile-os-landscape-with-new-boot-to-gecko-project.ars | 19:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | edheldil: | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~hostmode | 19:15 |
| infobot | somebody said hostmode was http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232 | 19:15 |
| ShadowJK | ysss, great, now we only have to wait for quad core 2GHz cellphone CPUs and 8Gbyte low-power DDR! :) | 19:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~h-e-n | 19:18 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, hostmode is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232, or see ~hostmode-charging | 19:18 |
| ysss | heh... that may very well be their target platform | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | err wut? "my OS is FF" ? | 19:19 |
| edheldil | DocScrutinizer: thanks | 19:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ysss: now mozilla goes google? dang! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | took then 2 years to catch up, while google obviously had a better idea called android meanwhile | 19:27 |
| ruskie | I thought it was android first... chrome os second | 19:27 |
| ysss | it's like a committee trying to mash "All mobile platform has to be cross compatible"... "These good web standards gotta be better used"... and "Let's app-ify the web" | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | what a utterly ill-minded concept | 19:28 |
| * ruskie starts kicking all these "smart" ideas | 19:29 | |
| DocScrutinizer | even apple noticed their online contacts database sucks as you *are not* always online | 19:30 |
| ysss | i read through apple's latest os' features.. .and i think they stole chrome OS' idea as their emergency boot disc :) it creates a 400mb partition on the hdd and if your main boot drive fail, that partition boots up with a web browser... supposedly so you can google for help or whatever. oh, the os can be installed over the net too. | 19:31 |
| ruskie | so basically stole linux ideas from the last decade? | 19:32 |
| ysss | heh | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | aiui iPhone's very first concept been "all is just a web app" until they noticed this sucks donkey balls | 19:33 |
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| ysss | if apple's original 'web app store' took off, then they would have a library of apps compatible with any other phones w/ browsers | 19:35 |
| ysss | except the games would suck balls | 19:35 |
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| edheldil | I have just noticed you can't set someone's birthday in contacts app before 1900. It does not hurt me in this case, but I wonder where else it's not possible to enter date before 1900 | 19:35 |
| ruskie | brains of Nokia engineers? | 19:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the datepicker is completely broken | 19:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | slotmachine datepicker - mule shit | 19:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | for harmattan MTF they fixed that, while for these Qt* widgets it's back again once more. Incredible | 19:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | nevertheless harmattan birthdays also start at January 1900 :-P - regardless of the better datepicker concept | 19:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | (this concept also isn't perfect, as it's a PITA to scroll thru even as little 100 years a` 12 months - gives me lame fingers from scrolling) | 19:46 |
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| qknight_ | i would like to know how the n900 can be used as a 'usb client' (like an usb stick) regarding the technical low level suff | 20:18 |
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| qknight_ | is that part open source or accessable? | 20:19 |
| qknight_ | i don't find any specification only 'usb host mode' discussion which is exactly what i NOT want | 20:19 |
| NIN101 | qknight_: the g_file_storage.ko kernel module might be interesting for you, for mass-stroage stuff at least. | 20:20 |
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| qknight_ | NIN101: thanks | 20:23 |
| NIN101 | yw. | 20:24 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The Humble Bundle donation spreads always crack me up. | 20:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: eh? | 20:34 |
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| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, Windows users average about $2-3 dollars, Mac users manage about $5-6 and the Linux crowd usually runs around $12-$15. | 20:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer | for what? | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | $random donating? | 20:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer | if that's the topic, then it's quite obvious: windows users are used to getting everything "for free" as the redmond crap comes with their hardware. Apple users know they usually have to pay for software. And Linux crowd knows the developers never get paid for software | 20:40 |
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| ysss | That's the perspective from a single participant... but as a whole, they seem to add to to approximately similar nominal amount for each slice of the cake | 20:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | you could as well say windows=cheap,paid-all-when-buying-hw, apple=don't-care-as-hw-and-sw-was-expensive, linux=buy-the-devel-so-he-continues | 20:44 |
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| mtnman | hello | 20:46 |
| mtnman | is there a way to do direct pc-to-pc sip calls? (i.e. connecting via ip address without a service provider) | 20:47 |
| mtnman | on the n900, that is | 20:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: alas not, seems telepathy/nokia didn't think about it | 20:48 |
| mtnman | hmm... perhaps with a different sip client? | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | at least afaik | 20:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'd not know of any different sip client | 20:49 |
| mtnman | a couple came up on a search i did | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the one on N900 seems to refuse to work completely as long as it couldn't register to SIP registrar | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | how did you do that search? | 20:50 |
| mtnman | that is very unfortunate. | 20:50 |
| mtnman | uh the usual search engine | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | which is? | 20:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | googling for "sip nokia n900"? | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | or HAM? | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | or what? | 20:51 |
| mtnman | i saw one called "fring" | 20:52 |
| mtnman | haven't looked into it very carfully though | 20:52 |
| mtnman | just looked up their site... looks to be a commercial venture | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://www.google.de/search?q=fremantle+fring gets me to the fringe | 20:53 |
| mtnman | try fring.com | 20:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | try http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=908939 | 20:56 |
| mtnman | also just found this with apt-cache search: | 20:58 |
| mtnman | sflphone-client-gnome - GNOME client for SFLphone | 20:58 |
| ysss | anyone use vmware or xen on a vt-d system | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: probably for this particular usecase installing asterisk on N900 and configuring it to serve as local registrar is the sanest thing to do | 20:59 |
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| mtnman | doc: i had thought of that, but it seems like it would be like trying to kill a fly with an elephant gun, when a flyswatter would be the ideal solution | 21:00 |
| mtnman | (asterisk being the elephant gun) | 21:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | though asterisk isn't really meant to get used this way and is quite an overkill, it might be the most straight forward fix for telepathy borkedness regarding direct-IP2IP voip | 21:00 |
| mtnman | but it seems like it would be kind of nice to have asterisk running on the n900, but i would imagine it would tax the system pretty heavily and run rather slowly | 21:01 |
| mtnman | i would think that one of the other linux sip clients would be ideal, since telepathy does not handle this use. | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: also note that SIP VoIP always is direct peer to peer, it's only the signalling that runs over a registrar | 21:02 |
| mtnman | like linphone or something like that | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | (well, modulo special cases like relaying) | 21:02 |
| mtnman | doc yes true about peer to peer. and correct, it is the registrar we are trying to avoid here. | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | get your own registrar on some box in the visible net | 21:04 |
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| mtnman | with linphone i was able to connect between 2 linux boxes by just specifying user@ip.address. i realize i could set up a registrar, but that is a more complicated situation. | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | it will satisfy telepathy/dialer registration needs and also happily forward your invite to a direct IP | 21:04 |
| mtnman | i realize that it would work, but it still requires the recipient to register to whatever registrar i would set up. | 21:06 |
| mtnman | i'm not trying to argue here, just looking for something that *is* supported by the sip protocol, however, seemingly not by telepathy. | 21:06 |
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| mtnman | i will look for one of the linux sip clients that may have been packaged for maemo, or else maybe i will try to install one of them manually. | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: (requires the recipient to register) definitely not | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: hell, I can call $random-IP even via my sipgate.de account | 21:08 |
| mtnman | doc: yes but you can't call a random ip which is an n900 endpoint | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | why not? because of NAT etc? that's inevitably true no matter what you do. You need a path to the endpoint and to establish that you need either a public IP or a proxy read registrar | 21:10 |
| mtnman | doc: what i have been saying is that with two linux boxes, i can call from one to the other by entering "user@ip.address" | 21:11 |
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| mtnman | if the recipient is an n900, it doesn't connect. | 21:11 |
| mtnman | if it is, say, a debian box running linphone or similar, it connects just fine. | 21:11 |
| mtnman | you have told me that telpathy doesn't suppor this. i accept that. | 21:12 |
| mtnman | now i am looking to an alternative linux sip client that i can install on my n900 to gain this functionality. | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: N900 SIP client *should* accept inbound INVITEs | 21:13 |
| mtnman | doc: you say "should" and i say "does not" | 21:13 |
| mtnman | this is on a my lan so there is no nat issue. i can ssh between the two boxes no problem | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | the question is how to get sip client into a state where it accepts the INVITE (read: registered, green dot showing up), and how to find the public IP of N900 to know where to send the INVITE to | 21:14 |
| mtnman | read above, i am testing this on a lan. | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, so what? | 21:15 |
| mtnman | in a situation where i know full well the ip address of each box. the concept of "registered" is what i'm trying to avoid. the green dot is not relevant. | 21:15 |
| mtnman | like i said, i'm not trying to argue. seems that telepathy does not support this, although other linux sip clients do. so i will look to another client. that is all. | 21:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sorry I really got no clue how borked telepathy is. Usually SIP RFC says you should send the INVITE to th URL/IP directly when you got no proxy (read sip provider) configured | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | same for inbound INVITEs | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | should always succeed when addressed to correct USER@ADDR | 21:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | ysss, that's the average per-platform. | 21:17 |
| mtnman | doc: yes i am able to make that type of connection on other linux boxes, but not with the n900 as recipient. seems there could be some way to configure that, but it may be simpler to just install an alternative sip client on the n900. | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | mtnman: sorry I can't help then | 21:18 |
| mtnman | thanks anyhow. sometimes just having a conversation in-channel sparks a conversation where someone else will chime in... | 21:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer | if you're able to read German, you may want to install twinkle on your PC, start it with German locale, and read the evry verbous explanations (almost a tutorial) I turned the F1 helptexts of each config item into | 21:21 |
| * mtnman does not understand german | 21:21 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | then reading the manual on twinkle.com still may help to shed some light on a few details in a very concise way | 21:23 |
| mtnman | doc: i think i have a fairly good handle on the situation. seems the issue is with telepathy or some component thereof. | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | twinkle has user name, registrar, outbound proxy. Usual clients mix up and simplify this | 21:24 |
| mtnman | doc: as i said, on a normal linux box i can get the functionality i have described. not so with telepathy. | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'm reading it the err 7th time | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | so it starts getting boring | 21:25 |
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| mtnman | sometimes one has to repeat onesself to get a point across. it seems i have done so. thank you for your time. good day. | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | I explained to you that N900 default SIP is built to work only when registered to a service provider | 21:26 |
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| * mtnman wanders off to seek an alternative sip client | 21:27 | |
| DocScrutinizer | and I dunno if it's part of telepathy or in dialer | 21:27 |
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| mtnman | i wouldn't imagine its part of the dialer, since that would be for outgoing, and we are discussing incoming | 21:28 |
| mtnman | but i am not an expert on the n900, just a neophyte | 21:28 |
| mtnman | perhaps the issue lies with telepathy-sofiasip (the connection manager) | 21:29 |
| ysss | GA: yes, i understand. my comment was directed to joerg. judging by the delay in response, i'm guessing we were desynched (or something... i haven't been on irc for quite sometime heh) | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ysss: I missed that | 21:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | aah no, seen it | 21:32 |
| ysss | nvm, just a social commentary of win vs osx vs linux ;) | 21:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | which is a non-rewarding topic anyway | 21:33 |
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| * DocScrutinizer just recalls he missed reporting about last 5 months h-e-n donations to co-devels. Which were exactly zero for each month | 21:34 | |
| ysss | aye | 21:34 |
| ysss | where is that | 21:35 |
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| ysss | we need to have a consolidated thread that lists all ongoing project with a clickable donation button | 21:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | why would anybody wan to donate to a project he doen't know the "frontpage" of? | 21:36 |
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| Sicelo | i'm one of those who donated $0.00 | 21:36 |
| Sicelo | no credit card, paypal, etc.. but willing to donate | 21:37 |
| Sicelo | :( | 21:37 |
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| ysss | a little bit of extra exposure doesn't hurt | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, Mohammad once had the idea to integrate a donation button to the "about" page of h-e-n GUI. This could probably have doubled the flood of money coming in, so we all could have gotten 2 times eating pizza instead of one time ;-) | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | (all = the core "devel" team of h-e-n) | 21:41 |
| ysss | i'd be interested to hear about the logistics of buying a pizza and splitting them up to the distributed team members ;) | 21:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | or let me put it this way: it costs more than the available amount of donated money to manage the donations | 21:42 |
| ysss | i'd imagine so | 21:43 |
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| Sicelo | but h-e-n is the greatest thing to have happened to my 3-week old N900. \0/ to the team | 21:57 |
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| OkropNick | what is h-e-n? | 21:59 |
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| Sicelo | hostmode, allowing connection of usb devices on your N900 | 22:00 |
| OkropNick | thanks for explanation | 22:01 |
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| Sicelo | yw.. | 22:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~h-e-n | 22:05 |
| infobot | [hostmode] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65232, or see ~hostmode-charging | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: thanks for the positive feedback :-) | 22:06 |
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| Sicelo | :) | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | ysss: :-))))) | 22:15 |
| ysss | yo | 22:15 |
| ysss | pizza arrived? :D | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | not yet | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | on my way to get one, literally | 22:15 |
| ysss | haha | 22:16 |
| ysss | w | 22:16 |
| ysss | ell you've earned it | 22:16 |
| ruskie | aww /me wanted to deploy a wormhole to redirect the delivery guy | 22:16 |
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| fusi | you know... | 22:51 |
| fusi | i take back what i said bout my hsf | 22:51 |
| fusi | sort of | 22:51 |
| fusi | took a straw and a bit of lung power to it | 22:51 |
| fusi | and im idling back down at ~45c | 22:51 |
| fusi | hehe | 22:51 |
| fusi | it was *slightly* gunked ^^ | 22:51 |
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| fusi | i really need to get a better one | 22:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hsf? | 22:56 |
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| fusi | heatsinkfan | 23:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | aah | 23:26 |
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| smegheadz | howdy guys | 23:54 |
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| Sicelo_ | hey smegheadz | 23:55 |
| smegheadz | whats up | 23:56 |
| smegheadz | i'm not much of an IRC user lil rusty | 23:56 |
| fusi | just bought 2 of those scud batteries :) | 23:57 |
| smegheadz | what are they? | 23:57 |
| NIN101 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1022505 did this actually work for somebody recently? With the summer edition kernel of meego and the modules from it it does not work for me (from debian, but shouldn't be a difference actually). While mounting & reading works, I'm getting "error -74 while writing...". I don't have any bad PEB and also maemo works very fine. Could it be related to CONFIG_MTD_ONENAND_VERIFY_WRITE=y? | 23:57 |
| fusi | http://www.aliexpress.com/fm-store/601765/209996492-436082429/Lithium-ion-Battery-for-Nokia-BL-5J-5230-5800XM-5233-N900-1420mAh-Free-Shipping.html | 23:57 |
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| smegheadz | just had a look fusi. there's a thread on tmo where someone is testing alt batteries for the n900 and posting what they really give. | 23:59 |
| fusi | yer, i got that link to that batt from there (: | 23:59 |
| fusi | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=65568&highlight=battery | 23:59 |
| smegheadz | thats the one. | 23:59 |
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