IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-06-19

_trineanyone fancy compiling pyrit for me00:03
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thopiekarPyrit? Sounds like a module.. As i remember from the past at diablo there is a team whos job is to provide modules..00:05
_trinesvn checkout pyrit_svn00:06
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_trinethat home page is well out of date though00:06
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thopiekar_trine: I'm working at mythtv atm ;)00:08
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_trinepyrit should take about 4 seconds to compile if you have the right build environment00:10
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trumeethopiekar: waiting for the binaries :)00:15
trumeethopiekar: i did try compiling myth-0.22 sometime as reported in that thread, but wasnt very successfull.00:16
trumeethopiekar: Lack of QT3 was the problem iirc, and gles support00:16
trumeethopiekar: it seems gles support is present in myth-0.2500:17
thopiekarIll take the qt3 libs from diablo sdk via apt-get source.. And switch to fremantle and compile it there..00:17
thopiekarHope it works00:17
MohammadAGit should00:18
thopiekar_trine: have you ever packaged?00:18
_trineno sorry00:18
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thopiekarDamn, can' t install the diablo sdk here.. Using x64..00:23
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thopiekarHmm I'll better prepare a vm then..00:26
GeneralAntillesFirefox 5 already?00:26
GeneralAntillesTrivializing major release numbers . . . why?00:26
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thopiekar_trine how is the package called providing module building when the source is installed?00:31
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thopiekarGot it python-support00:33 build00:34 install00:34
thopiekarSure python-support will do it for you when installing the package..00:35
_trineOnly pyrit itself will be usful00:35
_trineall the other stuff will be of no use on the n90000:35
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_trineI just want pyrit so I can verify the 'goodness' of the 4Way handshake00:36
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_trinepyrit -r capfile.cap analyze00:37
thopiekar_trine: which is the latest python version on fremantle? 2.5?00:38
_trineI dont know much about the n900 stuff ,, I have built all this on my PC at the moment00:39
thopiekarCheck python --version via xterm00:39
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thopiekarOk 2.5 checked that00:41
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_trineI used 2.7 on my ubuntu00:43
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thopiekarNever mind need to bind it against a python version because scratchbox is doing crazy things.. It would use it own python install.. Afaik00:44
thopiekar.. From diablo of course..00:44
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_trineI have built machine with some ATI GPU's in it so I can play with pyrit00:46
_trinebut the n900 is ideal for collecting the 4Way handshake00:46
_trineand it can do that in seconds00:46
_trineit does 180000 PMK's a second00:48
thopiekarBtw. Isn't it already packaged it the ubuntu repos?00:50
_trineyou mean pyrit?00:50
_trineI dont know I just compiled the svn00:51
_trineand for a pc you also need calpp00:51
thopiekarIt is..00:51
_trineif its in ubuntu its likely to be old00:52
nealWhen a wireless connection is disconnected, is it possible for me to tell whether the user forced the disconnect or whether it was due to inadequate signal?  Perhaps via d-bus?00:52
thopiekarNext time you need a package from me tell me that xD got here 0.4.0.. Is that ok?00:52
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thopiekarI would wonder if not got oneiric installed here ;)00:54
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DocScrutinizerneal: good question. yes, I'd start with monitoring dbus to find out01:33
DocScrutinizerI'd think a user-forced disconnect will show up on dbus in a unique way01:33
DocScrutinizerwhile a signal-loss is an internal thing of, err... that network managing thing, forgot the name NCD2?01:35
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DocScrutinizer512MB RAM, 1GHz CPU clock max, nice02:28
GeneralAntillesAssuming that's real Cortex A8 and not any of Qualcomm's bullshit02:29
GeneralAntillesYeah, nice.02:29
DocScrutinizer(qualcom BS) indeed02:29
DocScrutinizerstill I bet on c-ts and so MEH!!02:30
GeneralAntillesRumor has it it'll be more exciting than just c-ts02:30
DocScrutinizeralso not convinced about easy migration from maemo5 to maemo-RM680-1502:30
GeneralAntillesGiven the number of options here (exactly one) I'm willing to make some compromises.02:31
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe02:31
nox-you guys still think this `mystery device' is real?02:31
DocScrutinizersure it is real02:31
SpeedEvilReal - yes.02:31
DocScrutinizerI definitely know there are real devices out at testers02:32
SpeedEvilActually coming out and going to be purcahsable by end users - questionable.02:32
nox-yeah but it will also be sold?02:32
DocScrutinizerthat's the question :-P02:32
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DocScrutinizerand even more a question: will it *sell*02:32
GeneralAntillesI'm forced to assume so.02:32
GeneralAntillesGiven that Nokia has NOTHING else to offer until almost next year.02:32
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GeneralAntillesBut, I'm often overly optimistic.02:33
nox-well at least windows phone isnt really selling either...02:33
Shapeshifterha... "redefining success". What a smart slogan. I guess for nokia, success has been redefined as "not being completely overtaken by everyone else"02:33
DocScrutinizerNokia has to offer own graceful death, nothing more. That's my take on Nokia for this time02:33
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DocScrutinizerand honestly who's going to buy RM680? maemo fanboys? hardly.02:34
DocScrutinizermeego fanboys? who are those anyway?02:34
GeneralAntillesDepends on how they position it02:35
GeneralAntillesIf it's a compelling device with good appeal02:35
* DocScrutinizer slaps himself and shuts up02:35
GeneralAntillesLots of people will buy it.02:35
ShapeshifterI will buy it if it's significantly better than the n90002:35
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: there is a LOT of hw 'better than N900' out there. Why exactly would you buy RM680?02:36
* nox- wonders if the best we'll get wont just end up as no-need-to-jailbreak android phones...02:36
GeneralAntillesNokia folks were pretty enthusiastic about it in SF.02:36
GeneralAntillesnox-, sure seems to be trending that way.02:36
* GeneralAntilles trying to save an HTML attachment from Gmail last night on 2.2 almost made me kill myself.02:37
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: it's not just about hardware02:37
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: exactly my point02:37
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: if it has faster IO and a more streamlined/open linux, I may consider it02:37
Shapeshiftermaemo is a bother at times02:38
DocScrutinizerI'm not temped to consider yet another closed linux ecosystem not compatible to maemo502:38
GeneralAntilles /How do people use Android and like it?!/02:38
GeneralAntillesIs my question for the month02:38
nox-`dont know better'?02:38
DocScrutinizerif this rm680 thing is done right regarding OS, it would even run maemo5 *binaries*02:39
GeneralAntillesnox-, but people like zerojay and dneary moving from Maemo to Android.02:39
GeneralAntillesI couldn't manage it.02:39
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: too many negations. what do you mean?02:39
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: you're saying you think they will be compatible02:40
nox-GeneralAntilles, well maemo is kinda dead so might be understandable in a way...02:40
DocScrutinizerI mean I'm not interested in maemo5-meego-chimera02:40
GeneralAntillesnox-, well, dneary was using a G1 at the time.02:40
DocScrutinizerI mean I'm not interested in maemo6-meego-chimera02:40
Shapeshifterso you don't want them to be compatible?02:40
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smharwhat exactly is rm680?02:40
Shapeshiftersmhar: the new mystery nokia02:40
nox-..that might never be sold :P02:41
DocScrutinizercommonly quoted as "N9"02:41
Shapeshifterman. it's incredible, if you were able to add up all the hours people spend 'anticipating' some hazy device02:41
Shapeshiftercould be considered damage to the economy. and health02:42
DocScrutinizerprobably shipped with a "meego" that's actually a maemo-harmattan crippled to >look like< meego02:42
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, doubtful.02:42
GeneralAntillesPretty niche right here.02:42
smharis it release yet or a date announced?02:42
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: eww, if you put it that way02:42
nox-DocScrutinizer, haha02:42
Shapeshifterbut maemo5 is already a crippled linux02:43
DocScrutinizerand you bet it will cause more pain in your A** than you can take, trying to migrate from your m5 environment to that "meego"02:43
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: whatever maemo5 is, it's well supported by community and rather understood right now02:44
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: mh, yeah. it can do some amazing stuff. at the same time, some things are just terrible. on a basic level. like modest.02:45
DocScrutinizerand alot of that support been based on the rationale of maemo-os to come would offer an easy migration path02:45
smharI really do not understand Nokia anymore, didn't they just dumped linux in favor of windows?!02:45
Shapeshiftermaps was also terrible, at least the alternatives are starting to be useful02:45
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Shapeshifterbut it's not a very smart device. It's not a smart phone. more like a crippled miniature-laptop.02:46
Shapeshifterwhich is also okay02:47
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: ask for those maps alternatives' availability for RM680 prior to jumping into it head down02:47
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: Shapeshifter: ask for those maps alternatives' availability for RM680 prior to jumping into it head first02:47
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: oh I'm not one of those people who buy anything right after the release etc.02:47
Shapeshifteror preorder02:47
Shapeshifterpreordering is something I cannot understand02:47
Shapeshifterwill read lots of angry reviews first.02:47
Shapeshifterit was amazing to see how many people bought an N900 and were terribly unhappy, even though its limitations were apparent.02:48
SpeedEvilsmhar: yes, they did. However, they are committed - for reasons that are unclear - to release a 'meego' device - and they have not as yet backed away from this publically.02:48
DocScrutinizerI can't see jumping RM60 a single power user of N900 incl all the necessary auxiliary stuff from maemo-extras to make your life easier and phone useful for you02:49
SpeedEvilIt depends on what the basis is.02:49
loft306wwill it ever see the light of dayL02:49
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: well if migration isn't hard and the stock apps are better plus the device being more powerful, I don't see much of a problem02:49
SpeedEvilwhat the underlying software is.02:49
SpeedEvilloft306: We don't know.02:50
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: I preordered N900 on the rationale it had maemo as OS02:50
SpeedEvilloft306: Those that do know can't say.02:50
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: well you're an 'enthusiast'02:50
loft306and if it dose will i have to goto EU?02:50
smharSpeedEvil, I lost my N900 and I am soon getting another one, I can not put my bets on nokia anymore, probably intel but not nokia02:50
loft306enen though it passed the FCC02:50
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: migration will be a PITA02:51
SpeedEvilloft306: DEvices can pass FCC and not be sold.02:51
loft306i know02:51
DocScrutinizerjust my 2 cents though02:51
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: how do you know, now02:51
Shapeshifterif it's really a maemo '6'02:51
Shapeshifterposing as meego02:51
DocScrutinizerI extrapolate from what I know about meego-arm02:51
Shapeshifterwell, do you even know what package management it's going to use?02:52
DocScrutinizerI hope I'm wrong, honestly02:52
Shapeshifteris it going to be rpm?02:52
DocScrutinizernope, probably not, though I dunno02:52
Shapeshifterit seems like we know nothing, neither positive nor negative.02:52
Shapeshifterwell, apart from nokia generally screwing up.02:53
DocScrutinizerI'm more concerned about all the 'middleware' libs and stuff, like sensors, location, whatnot02:53
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: More important than RPM. Will it support PNG?02:53
ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: >.>02:53
smharShapeshifter, I know something for sure by now, never trust Nokia on any thing they say, wait until you actually see the device02:53
ShapeshifterPNG? as in... pictures? I'm not getting the joke.02:53
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: so you fear the interfaces will be incompatible and all software using some middleware will break?02:54
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: nvm - someone at the meego conference who asked silly questions.02:54
DocScrutinizerall the hacks that fix issues for maemo5, starting at simple-backlight-applet over tweakr for user defined profiles, to dunno what. All that will not work anymore on maemo6-meego and I'm not willing to use a device that is back to the shitty UX maemo5 PR1.0 offered to me02:55
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: exactly02:55
Shapeshiftera sane concern02:56
DocScrutinizeraaah PNG, now I got the pun02:57
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter: there was an old Chinese guy asking inane questions in all of the talks at the MeeGo conf.02:58
GeneralAntilles"What does the Q stand for?" [in QML]02:58
DocScrutinizerbasically I got same concerns with m6/meego-fake as with every OS update. I'm a power user that invests a lot of time to configure the user interface to his needs. I'm not willing to "simply reinstall windows to fix it"02:59
ShapeshifterGeneralAntilles: oh02:59
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: btw, backlight-applet, custom profiles, those are the kind of things I'd expect from a 'smartphone'03:00
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Shapeshifterlike, basic03:00
GeneralAntillesApparently he's a bit of a local legend in the valley03:00
GeneralAntillesGoes to many of the tech confs.03:00
DocScrutinizerfirst thing I do after a OS upgrade: figure how to reset all the stuff so it looks like the old OS03:00
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: dinosaur03:00
lolcatI don't understand03:00
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: you don't like change, do you03:00
DocScrutinizerfor m6/meego there's no way to do that03:00
lolcatHow can the creators of Maemo, something so perfect, also make Symbian who sucks so hard03:01
GeneralAntillesBecause Nokia is a big goddamn company.03:01
lolcatWhen is the N9 announcment?03:01
Shapeshiftermaybe they should've split up everything and become 'Nokia Holding'03:01
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DocScrutinizerthere's (been) nokia-maemo and there's nokia-symbian. The two are unrelated except for quite some fighting behind the scenes I guess03:02
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lolcatBut like03:03
lolcatThey are so opposite03:03
lolcatThe idea is completly diffrent03:03
lolcat"Hey lets make an open simple, usable and efficent os" vs "Hey lets make a locked down piece of shit, where software errors only can be fixed by reinstall, lets make it impssible to see what is fucking up your system, and lets close it down as much as possible"03:04
* DocScrutinizer suspects the meego-merger idea originated from some symbian-crew spindoctor03:04
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Shapeshifterjeez meego day one was on June 30, 2010... it's been that long? o.o03:06
DocScrutinizerif that's what "synergy" gets you, then screw synergy03:07
DocScrutinizermaemo would be shining today, if they'd have put as much effort in making it clean, as they've put in meego just to make it run at all03:08
Shapeshifter"future disruption in mobile ecosystem" that sounds so desperate...03:08
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DocScrutinizer...and probably been meant exactly as desperate as it sounds03:10
DocScrutinizerthey never managed to integrate maemo into "Ovi eco-system"03:11
loft306didnt try hard enough03:12
SpeedEvilIt's openmoko writ large.03:12
SpeedEvil(though with maybe 100* the sales and an actual usable device)03:12
DocScrutinizera fsckng deja-vu03:12
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SpeedEvil(not knocking the OM hardware)03:13
DocScrutinizernah, N900 had better potential than FR03:13
DocScrutinizerboth the hw (obviously) and the OS03:13
SpeedEvilSure, but the hw wasn't the limit.03:13
DocScrutinizernever been03:14
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lolcatI can't wait for N903:14
DocScrutinizerit's always the management screwing up by patronizing SW department into weird directions03:14
lolcatI am hearing 64gb storage03:14
DocScrutinizerso what?03:14
lolcatI can install maemo for it?03:15
DocScrutinizerI cab put 64GB storage into my N900 tomorrow03:15
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nid0I can mount a 2tb local nfs share on mine, go me!03:15
DocScrutinizerlolcat: really03:15
lolcatI can mount 6x 2tb usb disks03:15
lolcatIt doens't make it practical03:15
DocScrutinizer32GB eMMC + 32GB uSD03:15
lolcatBut the N9 does 32 eMMC + 6403:16
lolcatIt has like, 1gb ram03:17
lolcatAnd like, stuff that you need03:17
DocScrutinizerBS, see above. It has 512MB ram03:17
lolcatDoesn't the N900?03:18
DocScrutinizersearch backscoll for 512MB03:18
lolcatgsmarena says 728 or something03:18
Shapeshifterwhen I'm rich, I will make a good open phone03:19
Shapeshifterjust you wait and see :<03:19
SpeedEvilWhen I'm rich, I want to follow in the steps of Richard Branston.03:20
smharShapeshifter, openmoko2 ?03:20
SpeedEvil(waterskiiing round his own private island with a naked supermodel on his back)03:20
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lolcatmAKIN  a good phone is so easy03:20
SpeedEvilBut a open phone, or 4:3 laptops would be good.03:20
lolcatReal debian + maemo gui03:20
nid0could you add 16:10 monitors to the list as well?03:21
Shapeshiftersorry, no debian03:21
SpeedEvilTo develop a decent phone saleable as a mass market device is going to cost 10 million.03:21
* DocScrutinizer smells trolling03:21
SpeedEvilThat is - for an initial run of 50000 or so, and software development.03:21
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Seriously, that is all it needs. A dialer, contacts, IM integration. it can't be that complicated03:21
Shapeshifternid0: you know the silicon graphics SW1600?03:21
lolcatDebian is allready made, gui is just graphics03:21
DocScrutinizerlolcat: go ahead, you got all the platform, with m5 and N90003:22
SpeedEvillolcat: powersaving is hard.03:22
Shapeshiftermy phone will run on diesel.03:22
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nid0Shapeshifter: they certainly exist, but theyre irritatingly rare and hellishly expensive since all the monitor manufactures cheaped out and started using TV panels03:22
Shapeshifterbrb developing thumb sized diesel fuel cells03:23
SpeedEvil4:3 screens also exist.03:23
SpeedEvilthey are even less eyewateringly expensive than they were a couple of years ago.03:23
Shapeshifternid0: A colleague is giving one away. :| but I don't want that AGP2x card. And I don't want to buy one of those new adaptors for 160usd if I can just buy a 24" screen for 200usd.03:23
lolcatSpeedEvil: SSD + amoled03:24
Shapeshifterand after all, it's just 17"03:24
lolcatA cpu with three cores03:24
lolcatone small one for ideling and interrupts03:24
lolcat2 big ones for aweseomness03:24
Shapeshifterwhere did openmoko get their funding from?03:25
DocScrutinizerlolcat: please tell me the part number, we're going to use that asym MP device for our next product03:25
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: FIC basically03:25
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: what's that?03:26
DocScrutinizerwhich led to the common misconception of OM *being* a FIC subdivision03:26
DocScrutinizerFist International Computers03:26
DocScrutinizerFirst even03:26
lolcatDocScrutinizer: Yout next product?03:26
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DocScrutinizerlolcat: Openmoko GTA03-mk2 been following the concept of offloading small tasks to a small auxiliary CPU03:28
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: so, why did the openmoko fail?03:28
Shapeshifterapart from being terribly fat03:28
lolcatShapeshifter: Software03:28
DocScrutinizerVenture capital said "it's enough now"03:29
ludensum im trying to see what flash versions are available for my N900 but im getting very confused, could someone pls point me somewhere or sum it up? kthx03:29
lolcatDocScrutinizer: But you don't have a cpu to do it?03:29
lolcatludens: Flash 1003:29
Shapeshifterludens: iirc flash 903:29
ludenslolcat: thanks and where do i get it?03:29
DocScrutinizerlolcat: we don't have a company to build any device from OM now03:29
lolcatludens: ham?03:29
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lolcatDocScrutinizer: I am sure china has one03:29
DocScrutinizerludens: there's exactly one proper flash version: the rev9 shipped with maemo, which got some patches to be more like 10 rather than 903:30
ludensok thx DocScrutinizer03:31
ludensthats what i suspected03:31
DocScrutinizerthere's no update or alternative that really delivers03:31
ShapeshifterI hate how software for maemo is half-assedly patched - basically just to break compatibility03:31
Shapeshifterpulse is one example03:31
ludensand it wont run any new flash stuff03:31
Shapeshifterman. it's incredible how far behind the phone market is regarding openness03:32
ludenswhat does TweakFlash do?03:33
ShapeshifterI didn't know android wasn't a google project at the beginning...
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DocScrutinizerit tweaks the maemo flashlib to report rev10 afaik03:34
ludenswill it make it possible to see more videos that i cant see now?03:34
Shapeshifter'The search giant quietly acquires the startup, netting possibly a key player in its push into wireless, "the next frontier in search"'03:34
DocScrutinizerludens: ^^^03:34
Shapeshifteroh how right they were03:34
ludensill try that, thanks03:34
DocScrutinizerkeep a backup of your files! yw03:35
ludensoh tweakflash requires flashing?03:36
* DocScrutinizer suggests backupmenu to ludens03:36
ludensheard about it03:36
ludensbut i really dont have time to risk having to reflash03:36
DocScrutinizerthat's what backupmenu is for03:36
DocScrutinizerhopefully restoring things without a complete flash plus configuring adventure03:37
DocScrutinizerof course you need to install and create backup *before* you mess up things ;-)03:37
ludensin what repo can i find backupmenu?03:37
DocScrutinizerextras-devel I guess03:38
ludenscant see it03:38
ludensi cant see why i would need to reflash just because i mess with my flash player?03:38
nox-what was that broken thing that just `dd.d' over flash ignoring bad blocks?  no backupmenu?03:38
infobotnox- meant: what was that broken thing that just `dd.d' over flash ignotring bad blocks?  no backupmenu?03:38
nox-ergh :)03:39
nox-s/no /not /03:39
DocScrutinizernox-: backupmenu-I03:39
DocScrutinizerRobieTheFirst fixed it after we started bashing him ;-)03:40
nox-aah :)03:40
DocScrutinizernox-: btw it would've worked with 2nd s/// if you hadn't posted "ergh :)" :-P03:41
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ludensso, whats new about the N9 :)03:56
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ludenshm not much then04:05
ludensok next question... on a scale of 1 to 10, how cool is the community SSU? should i get it?04:06
Hurrianludens: 704:07
Hurrianmostly for blurless and camera-ui204:07
Hurrianand zoom on touch04:07
Hurrianand rotation lock04:07
Hurrianblurless -> desaturates bg instead of blurring04:07
Hurriani dont really like portrait mode04:08
Hurrianmaemo doesnt look like it's made for portrait04:08
Hurrianwonder why so many kids are bitching real hard over it04:08
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ludensits very convenient when you only have one hand available04:08
Hurrianthey're as loud as the people who say "CAN NITDROID CALL?"04:08
ludensit can be kind of hard to operate the phone with one hand in landscape04:09
ludensanyway whats camera-ui204:09
Hurrianit's a better camera-ui04:09
Hurrianjust got used to it04:09
Hurrianiso 1600, distance measuring, better focusing04:09
ludenssounds awesome04:10
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Hurrianalso, the n900 is easy to use one-handed if you have large hands04:11
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Hurrianwrap around phone, use thumb to slide it open04:11
Hurrianmove phone around, reach switcher04:11
Hurrian*task switcher04:12
Hurrianlaunch any apps04:12
SpeedEvilHurrian: Drop hone in toilet as you're turning it round.04:12
Hurrianspeedevil: you stand near open toilets?04:12
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SpeedEvilSome seem to.04:13
Hurriancamkeyd + multiple home screens04:13
Hurrianall you'll likely need when having only one hand free04:13
Hurrianput index finger on top edge of the bottom shell, thum on the bottom part of the slider04:14
Hurrianslide up, start typing out contact name04:14
ludensi've been using Bless900 for the camera. is camera-ui2 better?04:14
Hurrian@ludens: worse quality, but it doesnt take 100% CPU for 5 seconds04:14
ludensyea thats nice04:15
DocScrutinizerI fail to see the superior quality of blesn900 shots04:16
ludenssometimes its very good, most times not really04:17
ludenswait, camkeyd is what?04:17
Hurrianludens: half-press camera button and it opens the task switcher04:18
ludensthats really sweet04:18
ludensdoes the daemon behave?04:18
Hurrianiirc shortcutd replaced it04:19
Hurrianyou can use the proximity sensor instead04:19
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* DocScrutinizer is happy with MHD (ships per default with CSSU) and ctl-BS:
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DocScrutinizerall that fuss about portrait mode is beyond me, I can't do anything reasonably in portrait anyway, except calling - and caller-ui is portrait since beginning of times04:31
DocScrutinizerlook, if I wanted a portrait phone with an OS completely targeted on finger (/ thumb) usage, I'd probably gotten an iPhone, or palm pre04:33
DocScrutinizerI don't buy a device with a full qwerty kbd in landscape mode, to finally find HAM(!!!) rotate to portrait when clicking "details" of a package04:35
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psycho_oreosthere's landscape lock mode for that DocScrutinizer :)05:03
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ludensDocScrutinizer: um what is MHD?05:06
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: uhum you noticed it doesn't obviously work for me as expected anyway?05:06
DocScrutinizerludens: modified (matan's) hildon desktop05:07
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: "regression" of that oh-so-awesome portrait-enabled HAM05:08
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DocScrutinizernow that's real progress ;-P05:08
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, not sure :) but one thing I did find annoying is the standard landscape to portrait transition05:09
psycho_oreosapart from that I locked it mostly to landscape, of course I guess landscaped phone call is somewhat rather annoying05:09
DocScrutinizerone thing I find annoying are users concerned about HAM not working in portrait mode, so they can't install new apps while biking X-P05:10
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ludensid love another button for task switching than ctrl-BS05:10
DocScrutinizerwell, me too05:11
ludenscam key seems like a nice alternative05:11
psycho_oreosarguably that's not meant to be the case :D you're not supposed to use phones whilst operating something else in conjunction as well. Over here you probably get booked if cops saw you doing that05:11
DocScrutinizerbut alas that's the one already in place from maemo stock05:11
ludensDocScrutinizer: do you mean the task switching you show in that video comes with CSSU?05:12
ludensid love to try it05:12
DocScrutinizerludens: exactly05:12
ludensDocScrutinizer: so how do i activate it05:12
DocScrutinizersee my wiki user page "tools"05:12
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DocScrutinizeryou need to set a gconf key to define operation mode of "alt-tab" aka ctrl-bs05:13
ludensi gotta say the CSSU camera is really sweet05:19
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DocScrutinizerit's nicola's camera basically, and I don't know why it needs to come with CSSU. But that's another story05:27
DocScrutinizergood to hear it stopped sucking apparently, for you05:28
ludensyes compared to others ive used05:28
DocScrutinizerheard it tended to segfault a lot previously05:28
ludenswhat else is changed with this update, except the hildon-desktop things?05:29
DocScrutinizeranyway I'd prefer to install it as a noraml alternative package, like fcam or blessn90005:29
ludensyeah makes sense05:29
DocScrutinizerludens: (what else) see changelog05:29
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DocScrutinizer(alternative) if you want this particular cam as your default one, there should be a dirt simple GUI to select the default, not a CSSU to install this particular camera-ui as default unconditionally and irreversibly05:32
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verwould i see much improvement recompiling maemo with a tegra250 toolchain?05:38
vermeh, i'll find out i guess.05:38
DocScrutinizerof course everybody able to type a shell commandline can deal with this as well by using the command ln -s on >>lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 2011-03-06 21:41 /usr/bin/camera-ui -> /usr/bin/maemo-invoker05:39
DocScrutinizer(default camera ^^^)05:40
DocScrutinizernow if only I knew what's a tegra250 toolchain05:40
DocScrutinizerbut I'm sure *you* will improve a lot on doing this exercise - as is usual with all exercises done ;-)05:41
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DocScrutinizerif you want to keep this option of selecting your default camera, I suggest you create a backup of -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 278852 2010-07-27 10:29 /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch  prior to installing CSSU, as that's one of the files that get irreversibly nuked and can't get re-installed once your CSSU decided on which camra you ought to use from now on :-S05:48
DocScrutinizerrestoring this file after CSSU installed and nuked it will enable you to select default camera-ui by simply switching the symlink quoted above05:49
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DocScrutinizerwhich is exactly what I'd expect CSSU to do for the keep-that-file part, and the dirt-cheap-deafultcam-switcher for changing the symlink05:50
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DocScrutinizerthere've been concerns about "meddling with symlinks messes up system" - I can't see that05:51
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DocScrutinizer(for those wondering: maemo-launcher is a speedup for arbitrary mameo executables. It calls xxx.launch when maemo-launcher gets called (via symlink) as xxx )05:53
DocScrutinizerso in above example the camera-ui symlink usually calls maemo-launcher which calls (the original) camera-ui.launch in turn. CSSU redirects this symlink to cssu-camera-ui or whatever, and you can bend it back to its original value any time. Just need a reboot to make system aware05:56
DocScrutinizerof course if *somebody* (GRR) decides it's wise to nuke camera-ui.launch, then you're screwed unless you have a backup05:57
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DocScrutinizerwhile I'm at it: seems to have a copy I accidentally left here public, for those already screwed by CSSU wrt to default camera-ui06:10
ludenscool thanks06:12
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DocScrutinizerI wonder if CSSU maintainers pondered there *might* be processes calling maemo-launcher directly via execve() or whatever, and just setting argv[0]="canera-ui", which will inevitably fail when original camera-ui.launch got nuked06:22
DocScrutinizerwell, it will fail anyway for canera-ui, but should launch original maemo cam with "camera-ui" ;-P06:23
DocScrutinizerbut doesn't when executable got nuked06:24
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GeneralAntillesLove the tagline.06:52
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SpeedEvilIt's pining for the Fjoords.07:07
verDocScrutinizer, tegra uses a cortex a9 with soft mmu i think07:08
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SpeedEvilOn inspecting ppp logs.07:39
SpeedEvilJun 19 03:06:34 pad pppd[19800]: sent [LCP ConfAck id=0x6 <mru 1500> <asyncmap 0xa0000>]07:39
* SpeedEvil wonders why my ISP objects to chars 30 and 3107:39
SpeedEvil(t-mobile, UK)07:40
DocScrutinizerver: so you plan to compile maemo for a different hw platform? won't fly for all I know07:41
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: lost me07:42
SpeedEvilasyncmap is 'please don't send these control chars'07:42
SpeedEvilin a ppp auth sequence07:42
DocScrutinizerfail to decode char(30) / (31) there07:43
DocScrutinizeroh wait, that's 5 digits, weird07:44
SpeedEvilIt's a  bitmap of chars, including 007:44
DocScrutinizerin my book 0x0000 == b[31:0]007:45
SpeedEvilI don't understand what the leading 'a' is for.07:47
* DocScrutinizer neither07:47
DocScrutinizertbh I never even heard of asyncmap before07:47
SpeedEvilIt's ooold.07:47
SpeedEvilI was bored enough to be reading ppp logs.07:48
SpeedEvilAnd hacking on a proof of concept non-working demo for the web compressor07:49
DocScrutinizeraah web compressor07:49
DocScrutinizerI#m just wrapping my head around 802.15.407:50
SpeedEvilIt'd be nice if zigbee had taken off, and gotten interoperable switches actually cheap07:50
SpeedEvilSaw the /. on the nanonote07:50
SpeedEvilhad no modpoints though07:51
DocScrutinizerzigbee is >> 802.15.4 though07:51
SpeedEvillots more stack.07:51
DocScrutinizerwpan only specifies phy and mac layer07:51
SpeedEvilAnd zigbee is annotingly nonfree07:51
DocScrutinizerwhile wpan is as free as it gets07:52
DocScrutinizerthe wole purpose of wpan been a *simple* protocol, as wifi and BT were considered too complex :-P07:53
DocScrutinizerwpan otoh should survive >1 year on passive standby - one of its design goals07:54
SpeedEvilThe raw air-format of wifi isn't too bad.07:54
DocScrutinizerfrom bat that is07:54
SpeedEvilIt's just that there are so damn many layers.07:54
DocScrutinizeryeah, as are in zigbee probably07:54
DocScrutinizerclustered trees in wpan are just compex enough and exceed the mere 802.15.4 specs, thus creating need for crap like zigbee07:55
DocScrutinizerI'd prefer the LISS approach07:56
DocScrutinizerKISS even07:56
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cloudyLightstzafrir: hi?09:38
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cloudyLightstzafrir_laptop: so I i didnt hear from you09:45
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ludenshm does anyone know how to make links in terminal open with firefox?10:45
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ludensi use browser switchboard, but when i click links, nothing happens10:48
ludensif i run 'browser' in a terminal, firefox opens10:48
ludensknown problem or just me?10:49
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MacerGreece is socialist??13:42
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psycho_oreosany of you guys played with qimsys from extras-devel?13:48
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Hurrian@psycho_oreos: not yet, but it looks a lot better than the n900's software keyboard13:53
HRH_H_Crabi must say i was a bit saddened that the cssu stuff hasnt given me gapless playback, BUT...13:54
HRH_H_Crab...awesome work on improving the terminal!13:54
Hurrian@HRH_H_Crab: blame MAFW13:55
HRH_H_Crabi've not had to use "reset" once!13:55
HRH_H_Crabit doesnt matter how many screens within screens im in,13:55
HRH_H_Crabkeys are doing what they are supposed to!13:55
MohammadAGpatches welcome for gapless playback :p13:55
Hurrianwhich reminds me, i need to ask MAG for Home and End buttons for XTerm13:55
psycho_oreosHurrian, the latest qimsys (version 2.0) prevents one from using the default onscreen keyboard13:56
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Hurriancan't use imswitch13:56
MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, permanently?13:56
psycho_oreosMohammadAG, I'm guessing at this point in time, permanently yes13:57
MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, and uninstalling it won't bring that back?13:57
HRH_H_CrabMohammadAG: im not trying to nag. i totally understand that there must be some horrific reason why it isnt trivial to implement it.13:58
psycho_oreosI've removed qimsys-* and still unable to get onscreen keyboard back. My other n900 without having installed the latest qimsys-* but has literally the exact same setup as the one having issues shows no virtual keyboard losses.13:58
psycho_oreosMohammadAG, nope, not even downgrading, removing and even purging it13:58
MohammadAGinteresting, /me installs it13:59
Hurrianpsycho_oreos, tried running imswitch?13:59
MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, is it a big improvement over the stock keyboard?13:59
psycho_oreosHurrian, no clue, you mean hildom/mscim switcher thing? did that and restarted osso-xterm twice, didn't work13:59
psycho_oreosMohammadAG, I couldn't get qimsys to work lol14:00
psycho_oreosnot only did I lose virtual keyboard, I couldn't type Japanese at the time14:00
Hurrian@HRH_H_Crab , i'm guessing MAFW lets go of the pulse pipe14:01
Hurriani'm yet to look at the code14:01
cloudyLightshi MohammadAG14:01
MohammadAGwait, so it's only japanese?14:01
MohammadAGhey cloudyLights14:01
MohammadAGanyone experienced in gstreamer and C can add gapless playback14:02
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psycho_oreosno, it doesn't input anything when one enables qimsys (2.0)14:02
cloudyLightsthe python app I worte is not packaged well14:02
HRH_H_Crabwell, whatever the case, massive thanks to whoever sorted out the terminal!14:02
HRH_H_Crabyou rock!14:02
cloudyLightswill try to ask in 5hr here14:02
HRH_H_Crabi use my n900 for shelling in to my machines at home a great deal14:02
cloudyLightsalso wanted to say thanks for CSSU14:02
HRH_H_Craband i frequently use nested screens14:02
psycho_oreosthough I did notice there was one extra input box when I was trying to find music to play with mediaplayer14:03
HRH_H_Crabapps like mutt were often pretty impossible to use due to keyboard wierdness14:03
* Shapeshifter hasn't used the onscreen keyboard even once. doesn't see the point >.>14:03
HRH_H_Crabbut that now seems to be a thing of the past.14:03
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Hurrianbest things about CSSU: blurless, zoom-on-press, tactile, camera-ui2, osso-xterm14:03
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psycho_oreosShapeshifter, I don't use the standard one alot of the time, but its the extra syms that are also affected. This is particularly annoying if you're working with shell and you can use things like: `, |, { and } for instance14:04
MohammadAGpsycho_oreos, no, I meant is qimsys only for JP input?14:04
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psycho_oreosMohammadAG, it looks like its supposed to be :)14:05
* MohammadAG uninstalls14:05
psycho_oreosmscim allows a broader range of input, though at the time I've only tried Japanese14:06
Shapeshifterpsycho_oreos: I've bound all of those symbols to some combination. I replaced a character I never use (ç on my keyboard) with |, fn+left is {, fn+right is } fn+shift+left is [ fn+shift+right is ], <, > are also there14:08
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psycho_oreosShapeshifter, nice that's one other way of doing things :)14:09
cloudyLightsMohammadAG: I see that you fixed the osso pdf app14:10
cloudyLightsMohammadAG: is the source for calender app also open?14:10
cloudyLightscan we add features there?14:10
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MohammadAGcloudyLights, no, I only merged patches for it14:11
MohammadAGthe calendar app is closed, engine's open14:11
cloudyLightswhat do you think will be the future for getting a better calender?14:12
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zzbottomHave enabled sshd on my maemo14:14
zzbottomDisabled root login (for security)14:14
Hurrianzzbottom: did you change root password?14:14
zzbottomBut that is not the issue14:14
zzbottomI have created a user, that I want to use for ssh14:15
zzbottomand the to su to root.14:15
zzbottomI need to add this to the sudoers.14:15
zzbottomLet me just check to be sure...14:15
HurrianW.M.O.: Sudo relies on /etc/sudoers, a configuration file that details who can run what commands. /etc/sudoers is traditionally modified by using the 'visudo' command. DO NOT DO THIS ON MAEMO. In maemo sudoers is regenerated periodically from config snippets in /etc/sudoers.d/, using visudo can cause the slow death of your system as your edit gets pushed further down /etc/sudoers.14:16
zzbottomI use visudo and I add  <the user> ALL=(ALL) ALL14:16
Hurrian>>>>>/etc/sudoers is traditionally modified by using the 'visudo' command. DO NOT DO THIS ON MAEMO.14:16
zzbottomthen how to sudo?14:17
MoonTigerzzbottom, the "root" cmd doesnt work for you?14:17
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zzbottomDon't think so through ssh.14:17
zzbottomIt does from localhost...14:17
MoonTigerssh is just u being on a remote machine14:17
MoonTigershouldnt be any diff14:17
zzbottombut let me try remote14:17
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zzbottom<username >is not in the sudoers file.  This incident will be reported.14:18
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zzbottomis the output when I "root" from the user I have created.14:18
Hurrianwhat the crap, sudoers gives each program an entry14:18
Hurriannokia sure did choose to do everything ass-backwards14:19
MoonTigernokia == muppets14:19
zzbottomnot cool14:19
MoonTigerok gotta go back to coding14:19
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zzbottomOn the device, "root" gives me root access. (from the standard "user" login), default.14:20
zzbottomBut when ssh'ing and login on to the device using a newly created user, I get:14:20
zzbottom<the user> is not in the sudoers file.  This incident will be reported.14:21
zzbottomAny workaround for this when sudoers is not possibel?14:21
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obcecadousermod -G wheel username14:23
Hurrianadd a script in /etc/sudoers.d14:23
zzbottomI know the wheel from BSD - this will also work on maemo?14:24
Hurrianit works if group wheel is OK'd in sudoers14:25
zzbottomfunny... now I can't gain root on the devise itself... probably because I disabled permitrootlogin in sshd_config14:26
zzbottomit sucks14:26
zzbottomnow, how can I edit sshd_config... only through R&D?14:27
zzbottomor any tricks?14:27
Hurrianmeego => mount ubifs14:29
zzbottomNot running meego yet14:31
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zzbottomrootsh is installed14:32
zzbottommaybe installing it again will fix sshd_config.14:32
MohammadAGsshd_config doesn't prevent root access on device14:32
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DocScrutinizerHurrian: HRH_H_Crab: ( i'm guessing MAFW lets go of the pulse pipe) exactly. you need to set up a new pipe for each file to playback, and there's no proper way to sync them14:33
HRH_H_Crabim no coder but that sounds like the horrific reason i alluded to earlier.14:34
zzbottomMohammad: It shouldn't, but is has been breaking my local gainroot...14:34
zzbottomchanging sshd_config what the only thing I did.14:34
Hurriandocscrutinizer: and i guess putting two files together in the background and streaming it into the pulse pipe would eat memory?14:36
Hurriansomething like cat14:37
DocScrutinizerzzbottom: refer to for sudoers14:38
MohammadAGMAFW doesn't handle pulse pipes, only gstreamer ones14:39
MohammadAGit constructs a new pipe for each file, which is kinda dumb14:39
zzbottomStrange - I does actually gain root on the console even though I get the reply "<the user> is not in the sudoers file.  This incident will be reported."14:39
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zzbottomwhen typing "root" in a console on the device14:40
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DocScrutinizerHurrian: who cares, but what will you do at end of 2nd file? ;-P14:40
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DocScrutinizerzzbottom: take care when messing with etc/sudoers. Real chance to go for a reflash14:42
Hurriandocscrutinizer: keep piling up files :P14:42
Hurrianand if gst is to blame, i think someone may have to do some backporting14:42
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DocScrutinizeryeah, that's what you'd like to do, feed audio framework with seamless data. Alas this friggin mafw doesn't work like that14:43
DocScrutinizerbasically, in my book a mediaplayer has to do the audio streaming under close control itself, not offload to a stupid framework14:44
DocScrutinizeras soon as you got seamless, you run into next obstacle: crossfade14:44
DocScrutinizermafw is crap basically14:45
DocScrutinizerit's nice for simple tasks, but completely inappropriate for a decent mediaplayer14:45
Hurriantoo bad a lot of maemo apparently relies on it14:45
DocScrutinizerno problem, you don't HAVE TO use it14:46
DocScrutinizeryou can open a simple audio device and do all the streaming locally, instead of offloading the whole task to mafw14:47
DocScrutinizerand I bet canola etc are doing exactly that14:47
zzbottomDoc: think I will leave sudoers alone... don't really want to flash the device...14:47
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DocScrutinizerzzbottom: tweaking sudoers.d/* with an own new file, or even editing files there, is all way safer than messing with etc/sudoers14:48
* MohammadAG wouldn't use Phonon over mafw14:49
MohammadAGjust saying14:49
DocScrutinizerjust don't forget to keep one root shell open for emergency recovery :-) then run update-sudoers and try if all your root and whatnot commands work as supposed14:49
DocScrutinizerphonon, BLAERGH!14:50
DocScrutinizereven more abstraction14:50
HurrianMAG: as it should damn well be, maemo is GTK based, you'd like to keep the middleware centered around GNOME14:50
Hurriani cringe every time a package pulls QT dependencies and fills rootfs14:50
DocScrutinizerwut, gnome???? another BLAERGH!14:51
zzbottomsshd_config changed back...14:51
HurrianDoc: GNOME 2 was great14:51
DocScrutinizer~nuke g*14:51
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at g* ... B☢☢M!14:51
zzbottomnow I can SSH as root.14:51
zzbottomeven though this is not what I want, I will stick with this...14:51
DocScrutinizerzzbottom: btw ssh and sudoers are unrelated14:51
zzbottomleaving it more unsecure...14:51
MohammadAGHurrian, sorry, but I prefer Qt UIs over Gtk ones14:52
zzbottomWell, Nokia... nice try.14:52
MohammadAGat least when writing them, Gtk is way too much effort to work with14:52
HurrianMAG: yes, Qt gives more bling without relying on hacky image engines14:52
DocScrutinizerzzbottom: huh?14:52
MohammadAGHurrian, that would be QML14:52
zzbottomand.... now I do not get "<the user> is not in the sudoers file.  This incident will be reported." when typing "root" on the device14:52
thopiekar_who of you told it would be easy to provide QT3 in fremantle?! :D14:53
MohammadAGthopiekar_, probably me :p14:53
MohammadAGthough it'd be unthemed etc14:53
zzbottomI mean Nice try nokia to try to join the smartphone marked with Maemo/meego.14:54
thopiekar_I was trying to build it but it always fails.. today I found out that Qt4 provides Qt3 support ..14:54
thopiekar_but disabled on maemo514:54
DocScrutinizerzzbottom: why did you create yet another user that's not "user"? I fail to get the point of that anyway14:54
Hurriandeffo cause problems when apps hardcode for the path /home/user14:55
MohammadAGthopiekar_, oh right, I forgot about that, it's just a compile flag14:55
zzbottomWould like to use my own login - which is not a default one14:55
thopiekar_yep, MohammadAG14:55
MohammadAGI hate apps that hardcode paths14:56
Hurrianzzbottom, they didnt even try to topple the iPhones and Androids14:56
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zzbottomand furthermore to enhance security.14:56
MohammadAGit's not that hard to use gettenv("$HOME")14:56
thopiekar_I plan to make a package now that would be able to be installed besides the original qt4 package and which will add qt3 support14:56
zzbottomeverything default is bad.14:56
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MohammadAGthopiekar_, where would that install?14:57
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DocScrutinizerzzbottom: there's no enhanced security in a new user that has sole purpose to do "rot"14:57
Hurrianpoor marketing, very low hq QC standards for a Nokia phone, standard Nokia UI patterns (INTERNET CONNECTIONS, ANYONE?)14:57
ShapeshifterMohammadAG: $XDG_CONFIG_HOME >:(14:57
MohammadAGstandard what?14:58
zzbottomDoc: ssh'ing is more secure if you can't login with default logins.14:58
thopiekar_I would need it on my N900 to have MythTV on it..14:58
DocScrutinizerlook at, fix sudo to ask for proper root password whenever somebody tries to "root". That's a bit of security14:58
zzbottomif you can login through root, you can just bruteforce it14:58
DocScrutinizeruse proper ssh-keys to log in to user account - that's good for security14:59
zzbottomit is way hardware if you also have to guess the login name14:59
thopiekar_the -maemo5 confflag disables qt3-support -.-' what does the -maemo5 at all?14:59
MohammadAGthopiekar_, a lot14:59
zzbottomsorry ... it is way HARDER if you also have to guess the login name14:59
* thopiekar_ will try to prepare the configure file to force qt315:00
psycho_oreosor wouldn't it be better to have something like fail2ban for that matter?15:00
DocScrutinizerzzbottom: no, login in to an account that has no password-auth allowed is just identically hard no matter what's the account name: impossible without the ssh RSA-key15:00
MohammadAGthopiekar_, just remove --no-qt3-support from debian/rules15:00
zzbottomDoc.. but I am not that worried about login in from the device itself... I want to enhance the security from remote with SSH15:01
thopiekar_done that but the -maemo5 flag also disables it..15:01
thopiekar_MohammadAG: ^15:01
DocScrutinizerlogin from remote is at *least* as secure as login from device itself, quite obviously15:01
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DocScrutinizerso if you can't get root from user without proper root password, then same applies to a remote login to account user, after somebody has found a way to steal your RSA-key to even log in to sshd on account "user"15:03
zzbottombut on the device I gain root by just typing "root" when rootsh is installed (as in my case). Yes, that is a big security flaw.. but funny enough, I can live with it as I am always carrying my phone.15:03
zzbottomThrough remote SSH, I want to disable all default logins, create my own login and be able to su from here.15:04
DocScrutinizerand if you would have bothered to actually look at what I gave URL to you...15:04
DocScrutinizeryou would have seen how to fix this issue15:04
zzbottomyep, I look at your URL, but is only fix the local issue, right?15:05
Choomthe notion that somebody would attempt a bruteforce login from the network is simply unconceivable to me unless pretty obvious passwords ar chosen15:05
DocScrutinizerit fixes "root" no matter how you issue the command15:05
zzbottomMyu concern is the remote SSH issue, where I want to disable default logins and login with my own login as well as being able to su15:05
Choomzzbottom: why's that an "issue"?15:06
Choomyou are far more likely to have your password keylogged than the ssh daemon bruteforced15:06
ShapeshifterChoom: hunter215:06
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DocScrutinizerChoom: I also fail to get it15:07
zzbottomThe issue is that you can't add a newly created user to the sudoers as I understand (at least without getting into troubles)... that is an issue15:07
DocScrutinizernevertheless there's definitely no problem in setting up this weird stuff15:07
ruskieyou can't???15:07
ruskiesince when?15:07
ruskiejust need to do it properly15:07
Shapeshifterruskie: hey. did you ever do something new to your urxvt package? I'm still using yours from like a year ago.15:08
zzbottomOk... then... how to do it proberly?15:08
ruskieShapeshifter, nope15:08
DocScrutinizerthough I really miss the purpose of the whole nonsense15:08
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ruskiezzbottom, see /etc/sudoers.d and /etc/sudoers15:08
ruskieit's explained how you need to add new entries to sudeoers15:08
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Shapeshifterruskie: aww... but... perl support *sob*15:09
DocScrutinizernah, see man sudo and man sudoers15:09
zzbottomOk, looking back...15:09
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ruskieDocScrutinizer, iirc sudoers file explains that it is generated15:10
DocScrutinizerthat's what update-sudoers is for15:10
DocScrutinizeras we got an obsolete sudo that doesn't know how to include sudoers.d/*15:10
ruskiethe rest is just use the right directives in a sudoers.d/file15:10
DocScrutinizerand look at for an example how to meddle with it15:11
ShapeshifterMh. Can someone summarize for me what (tremendous) work is needed to run another distro on the n900?15:11
zzbottomThink I am beginning to get the idea of sudoers.d15:11
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DocScrutinizerthe directives in etc/sudoers and etc/sudoers.d/* are identical in syntax and semantics15:13
DocScrutinizeruser isn't supposed to mess with /etc/sudoers15:13
DocScrutinizeras it gets generated when running update-sudoers script15:14
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zzbottomin sudoers.d, I got a file named "01sudo". Can I simply just edit this to reflect "user all = passwd: /usr/sbin/gainroot"15:21
zzbottomin order to get prompted for pw on the device when rooting?15:21
zzbottom(Now I am mixing things, I know)15:21
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zzbottomThanks DocScrutinizer - been reading your guideline and putting them together. It does seem that I am able to do what I want to accomplish...15:31
zzbottom(the weird stuff) (-;15:32
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voltagexcan anyone see a problem with the following dbus calls? (N900)15:40
voltagexerror is included in the pastebin.15:43
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MohammadAGrunning it as root16:06
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MoonTigerhey guys :)18:32
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MoonTigerif i stick to glib and pure c functions am i good to go for maemo?18:32
SpeedEvilyes - uif you want a command line app18:33
MoonTigerwell i will add the gui layer after words18:34
MoonTigersorry brain went elsewhere18:34
MoonTigergf said something to me18:34
SpeedEvilQML is C++ I think - though I've not doe it18:35
MoonTigeryah i want to stick with gtk18:35
MoonTigerfor the desktop and maemo18:35
SpeedEvilgtk works18:35
MoonTigerusing plain c is a real throwback to days gone by18:37
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* SpeedEvil finally starts coding a benchmarker for the webproxy idea using old data.19:45
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ludensdoes anyone know how to make links in terminal open with firefox?20:03
ludensi use browser switchboard, but when i click links, nothing happens20:03
ludensif i run 'browser' in a terminal, firefox opens20:03
ludensknown problem or just me?20:03
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MohammadAG<SpeedEvil> QML is C++ I think - though I've not doe it20:33
MohammadAGno, C++ is compiled, QML is interpreted20:33
MohammadAGThe syntax is close to JS20:33
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GAN900Jaffa, I don't buy it.20:57
fish_sticksI'm planning on getting the accelerometer readings from the N900 and send it to an opengl application to plot stuff.But the readings seems weird.Moving from position to position,there's a huge change in the values.20:57
fish_stickswill I be able to use it?or will accuracy be a problem?20:57
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petteriworked fine for me. I used the example on maemo wiki20:58
petterireading the values from /proc20:58
fish_stickspetteri: I did the same thing20:58
fish_sticksbut a small change gives me completely different values20:58
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petterifish_sticks: maybe your n900 is on some strange state, you might want to reboot and try again20:59
fish_sticksdid that,no difference20:59
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fish_stickspetteri: all I'm asking is will that be accurate enough to plot something on opengl?21:01
fish_sticksor will I have say a circle being plotted randomly every second21:01
petteridefinitely accurate enough21:02
SpeedEvilfish_sticks: What are you trying to do.21:02
fish_sticksthanks and its better I do it via usb right?21:02
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: trying to plot something using the accelerometer co-ordinates21:02
SpeedEvilThe accellerometer almost can't be used for integratingchanges in position, it's not possible generally.21:02
fish_sticksintegrating changes?didnt get you21:03
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SpeedEvilWhat are you trying to do with the data you get drom the accellerometer.21:03
petterithis one I used: and got working values21:03
SpeedEvilFor working out which direction 'down' is - it works.21:04
fish_stickssending that data via a socket21:04
SpeedEvilFor much more than that - it's complex.21:04
fish_stickspetteri: thanks21:04
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: you mean to tell me I wont be able to use it?21:04
SpeedEvilWhat are you trying to do with the data - not how are you reading it.21:05
fish_sticksI'll take that an draw say a circle using opengl21:05
fish_sticksplanning on implementing say a squash game21:05
fish_sticksso that the bat moves as I move the N90021:06
fish_stickssomething like that21:06
Choomreading my accelerometer several times, I get these: -36 -18 -936, -18 -36 -936, -36 -36 -936, -18 -36 -936, -36 -18 -95421:06
ChoomI don't know where my phone is right now, but the values are pretty stable to me21:06
fish_sticksChoom: its not stablity that I want,but fluidity21:06
SpeedEvilIt is poor to very poor at determining position. This is because you need to integrate the already noisy accellerations, and try to work out where the normally dominant 'down vector' is.21:07
fish_stickscontinuous precise variations21:07
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: okay21:07
SpeedEvilNote also that all those readings are divisible by 1821:07
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: didnt get you21:07
SpeedEvilfish_sticks: Do you understand vectors?21:07
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: kindof21:08
SpeedEvilThe accellerometer outputs a fairly inaccurate vector, which measures the accelleration it feels, and its current direction.21:08
SpeedEvilThis is however dependant on the orientation of the phone.21:08
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: you mean to tell me it will not tell me the current position?21:09
SpeedEvilAn accellerometer can fundamentally never tell you a position.21:09
SpeedEvilIt measures accelleration.21:09
Choomit doesn't tell you a position, it tells you acceleration21:09
fish_stickswill a gyro help?21:09
SpeedEvilYou need to integrate accelleration to get to velocity, then integrate velocity to get to position.21:09
Choomyou need to infer position from the acceleration vector, and ignore the acceleration of gravity21:10
SpeedEvilAnd a gyro removes some of the error terms, but not all.21:10
fish_sticksgot it21:10
SpeedEvilA gyro makes it easier to work out where 'down' really is - and to subtract this vector from your measured accelleration.21:10
SpeedEvilBut you're still faced with the noise of the accellerometer.21:10
fish_sticksso I'll have to take the values,integrate it to get the position huh?21:11
fish_sticksbut then again,noise is a problem21:11
SpeedEvilThe granularity is 18 milligee. This is an accelleration of 9.8mm/s^2. After 10 seconds, the velocity is uncertain by 9.8cm/s. After 100 seconds - 1m/s.21:11
GAN900Jaffa, given the WeAreMeeGo revive and whatnot.21:12
DocScrutinizernot mm21:12
SpeedEvilerr - no21:12
fish_sticksSpeedEvil: I know its out of scope,but is there another way to do it?21:12
SpeedEvilI screwed up comprehensively.21:12
SpeedEvilI meant 9.8mm/s, but left off the factor of 1821:12
SpeedEvilSo the above is out by a factor of 1821:13
SpeedEvilfish_sticks: you can use the accellerometer basically as a 'joystick'21:13
SpeedEvilfish_sticks: this works fairly well.21:13
fish_stickshmm k21:14
SpeedEvilImagine that there is a stick poking out of the screen, always vertical.21:14
fish_sticksso just x and y?21:14
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SpeedEvilX,Y,Z can be mapped onto two angles of the 'stick' - if you ignore the magnitude of the accelleration.21:15
SpeedEvilYou may or may not find - which I wrote earlier - of use.21:17
fish_stickswill check it out21:17
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JaffaGAN900: Indeed, I'm just trying to manage expectations. Too much TMO reading last week ;-)21:25
JaffaGAN900: Sounds like something which might be Section=front tonight, but no idea what the best thing(s) to link to is/are21:26
GAN900Yeah, I can rumor mongor21:30
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mikhasJaffa, still ... a thread with nearly 6k posts ...21:34
mikhaswho said that Maemo is dead? ;-)21:34
mikhasthis thread probably has more posts than whole of MeeGo forums :-D21:35
GAN900It's got a device21:35
GAN900Go figure21:35
* DocScrutinizer ponders of any metric which could compare tmo to meego forum21:36
DocScrutinizerwould probably need that legendary crap filter21:36
mikhasGAN900, :-)21:37
SpeedEvilDoes anyone happen to know what gzips maximum compression 'window' is with -9?21:38
mikhasROFL @ the blog countdown:
DocScrutinizererr, I did, but forgot :-S21:39
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: I think I#ve seen it once, in a reasoning about gzip's ram fotprint and speed21:40
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SpeedEvilK. Trying stupid metrics at the moment.21:41
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SpeedEvil'What is the increase in filesize of all of the text/* files from this website, in chronological order that you have ever downloaded gzipped, if you add the latest file'21:42
SpeedEvilFor example21:42
DocScrutinizerthat's not only about window size but also about dict21:44
SpeedEvilI know.21:44
DocScrutinizerand if the dict gets reused on new files21:44
SpeedEvilThat's what I'm trying to avoid.21:44
DocScrutinizererr, avoid?21:45
SpeedEvilreusing the 'dictionary'21:45
DocScrutinizerthe first gzip, then tar21:45
SpeedEvilI want to see how to best apply compression with a dictionary comprising the whole of the last 256M or whatever files you've downloaded.21:45
DocScrutinizerotherwise gzip will use one dict for whole tar'ed set of files21:46
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DocScrutinizergzip always works on one file only, and uses dict for the whole file21:47
SpeedEvilI'm not sure that's true - I seem to recall the dictionary can get at least partially purged - though I've forgotten the details.21:47
DocScrutinizersure, it adapts21:48
DocScrutinizerwhich makes sense21:48
DocScrutinizeranyway NB gzip seems pipe safe21:49
DocScrutinizerso it can't do optimum21:49
DocScrutinizerfor ptimum you'd need a two-pass compression21:49
DocScrutinizerand that's the reason why the dict must change during compression21:50
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DocScrutinizerand due to ram limitations dict can't grow infinitely21:51
SpeedEvilFIrst pass test results. 12M uncompressed text in 325 files. gzipping them individually 2.5M. gzipping them in chronological order - 2.4M. bzip2 - 1.3M21:51
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DocScrutinizerwhat's "chronological order"? you concatenated them?21:53
SpeedEvilConcatenated in the order they were downloaded.21:53
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DocScrutinizerwhich factor?21:53
DocScrutinizer--best ?21:53
DocScrutinizereven more amazing21:54
DocScrutinizerI'd have expected gzip to boost performance way more on longer files21:54
DocScrutinizerseems dict and window are ridiculously small21:55
RST38hMoo all21:55
SpeedEvilyes - it's possible that's not the best order21:55
RST38hAny news while I have been away?21:55
DocScrutinizersome RM-680 powertop-alike screendump21:56
DocScrutinizerwe see it has 512MB and 1GHz21:56
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DocScrutinizerand obviously been configured to use same amount of swap21:57
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DocScrutinizeryou also could read out some of the possible speedsteps of that CPU, but I guess that's particularly boring21:58
Juozapashow to play mov file on maemo?21:58
SpeedEvilSorting by ebay site - 1.0M - I need to work out how to sort by URL.21:58
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: bored? ;-D21:59
DocScrutinizeror are you trying to find a metrics for me, to compare net info in tmo vs meego forum?22:00
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: It's a log from a program called wwwoffled which is a web proxy - directly accessing the URL is not quite trivial. These are random browsing logs from a period in 2009.22:00
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DocScrutinizerI miss the general purpose22:01
SpeedEvilI'm trying to make metrics for a compressing web proxy. So I can inspire someone to actually write teh thing.22:01
SpeedEvilTo save on everyones bandwidth.22:01
* DocScrutinizer idly ponders about his dupfile killer app22:02
DocScrutinizerAAAHHH now!22:02
SpeedEvilFor example - nice graphs saying 'with a cache size of 130M, with the example dataset, the average reduction over time is:22:02
DocScrutinizerwell, there's a thing called compressed html iirc22:03
SpeedEvilRather than handwavey postulation on no data.22:03
SpeedEvilyes - it's not quite the same.22:03
SpeedEvilAnd would give similar results to gzipped html22:03
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SpeedEvil - I suspect I've posted before.22:03
SpeedEvilThe key is diffing against the best matching page the client has downloaded in the last 250M (or whatever) - not simply compressing.22:04
DocScrutinizersound rationale22:04
DocScrutinizerthough building a dict based on that 250MB would probably work even better22:05
SpeedEvilSometimes, yes.22:05
DocScrutinizergiven it's a comprehensive dict22:06
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DocScrutinizerso gzip is out22:06
SpeedEvilAt some point, you have to give up and accept the fact that you're not going to be able to do it properly due to serverside CPU limits.22:06
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DocScrutinizerI think the dict of gzip is using some LRU algo to purge tuples22:07
DocScrutinizerarr are these tuples at all?22:08
DocScrutinizerthe problem is you need to stay in sync, and recover from datastream dropouts22:09
MohammadAG~seen Venemo22:09
infobotvenemo <~Timur@fedora/Venemo> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 3d 21h 32m 34s ago, saying: 'user0, yeah, I did need to get my device to R&D mode when I used the rescue initrd'.22:09
DocScrutinizereven md5 sum over a 250MB cache are too heavy I guess, on mobile22:10
SpeedEvilThe mobile does nothing.22:10
SpeedEvilOh - right22:10
SpeedEvilAnd yes - the mobile only changes the cache based on a complete transaction that it has notified the server of.22:10
SpeedEvilOr something.22:11
DocScrutinizerhmm, that's possible but still icky and tricky22:11
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DocScrutinizerwhat if your notifications doesn't make it thru to server? what if the ACK gets lost?22:12
SpeedEvil'last seen update' sent with next request22:12
DocScrutinizerdoesn't help mobile out, as you don't want to keep several transactions open to rollback them, at mobile22:13
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DocScrutinizeryes, you can resend transaction codes to make sure server is in sync22:13
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SpeedEvilYou only commit finished transactions, and then notify the server of your state on next request - server has to rollback22:14
DocScrutinizerhmm, a very very complicated protocol22:15
SpeedEvilyes - it's going to be moderately complex.22:15
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DocScrutinizerI wonder if the protocol overhead will eat up the net savings on compression22:15
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SpeedEvilShouldn't. That's not the fun part though.22:16
SpeedEvilMobile says 'send me'.22:16
SpeedEviland 'I want compressed pictures and stuff'22:16
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SpeedEvilServer then diffs with the cache, and then does the same with all of the files that the mobile is going to request shortly as they are new files it hasn't seen, and sends it in one lump.22:17
SpeedEvilcookies are annoyin22:17
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DocScrutinizerprobably any embedded scripts also are annoying22:18
SpeedEvilThe evil nasty hack version might run a similar browser as the client on the server over the request. That's probably going too far though.22:20
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sirdancealotso, any demo of the hoped-for device would still mean a long wait time b4 it would be available for the masses, is that right?22:35
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sirdancealotso i should still follow thru with my n900 order :)22:36
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Jaffasirdancealot: I'd wait until Tuesday at least. If it is what we hope, there might be a glut of N900s on ebay ;-)22:39
sirdancealotic. thanks Jaffa22:40
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SpeedEvilWhat's the source of Thursday?22:40
Jaffasirdancealot: What if (and this'd be crazy time), Nokia said on Tuesday "we'll sell these for $199 to anyone with a or account"22:40
JaffaSpeedEvil: Thursday?22:41
DocScrutinizerthough... If I were to get me a N9 (which I'm definitely not ;-P), I'd wait to ebay my N900 until I hold the new device in my greedy hands22:41
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Indeed22:41
MohammadAGNokia Connections22:41
GAN900Jaffa, I'll eat my shirt.22:41
JaffaSpeedEvil: and!/WeAreMeego/status/82254724727975936 and
MohammadAGsome market disrupting device22:41
sirdancealotJaffa, then i should get one of those accounts quick :)22:41
SpeedEvilJaffa: Ah22:42
SpeedEvilJaffa: Thanks22:42
DocScrutinizerJaffa: (we sell to account) I'd say "Nokia you're nuts, I ask for device price getting calculated by the formula (500 - <maemo-karma>)22:43
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Genius. So they give me a device and a load of cash? Great :-)22:44
DocScrutinizerme too ;-P22:44
DocScrutinizerat least most of the trolls wouldn't get a subsidized device22:44
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: Aye. Most of the trolls only have accounts, so let's limit it to accounts (i.e. the Midguard DB)22:45
DocScrutinizerand when I think about it, I'd prefer NOBODY gets a subsidized device, when the alternative is trolls getting them way too cheap22:45
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I'd certainly prefer targetted giveaways to general subsidisation (if it included trolls)22:45
JaffaAnyway, bed time22:46
DocScrutinizercya Jaffa22:46
DocScrutinizergarage account sounds fair22:46
DocScrutinizerthough iirc they did the min-karma-needed thing before22:47
DocScrutinizerwich seems a more general approach22:47
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DocScrutinizerI'd think they should have had a device queue since long22:48
DocScrutinizerthey are missing out on feedback of a small crowd of smart knowledgeable people22:49
DocScrutinizerevidently their internal evaluation and tester process didn't always perform up to expectations22:50
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MohammadAGanyone know how electric guitars work?22:51
DocScrutinizerbut then this once more would need a mindset based on cooperation and trust into FOSS community, rather than "serving them"22:51
MohammadAGwondering if something like a pocket amp app would be doable22:51
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: huh?22:52
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you ask if the headset/AV mic input is capable of dealing with signals from an E-guitar pickup? short answer: No22:53
MohammadAGno, I22:54
MohammadAGfucking hildon taking focus22:54
MohammadAGI'm asking how electric guitars send signals22:54
MohammadAGor what type of signals those are22:54
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DocScrutinizerlow voltage high impedance electrical waves in a cable ;-)22:55
DocScrutinizerin a way similar to a classical passive microphone, though still sufficiently different so you can't use a mic input for E-guitar22:56
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DocScrutinizerwhich probably each band can tell you - you can't use the vocals amp for guitar22:57
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DocScrutinizerat least that's what I've been told - I'm no musician22:57
MohammadAGyou're an engineer, you probably know more about this :P22:58
DocScrutinizerI think impedance is sufficiently different so this usually doesn't pan out22:58
DocScrutinizersome numbers from my arse: guitar:100k-Ohm, mic:300Ohm22:59
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DocScrutinizerthis time by rear might not have as good numbers as it usually does23:00
DocScrutinizershort: I may be wrong here23:01
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_trinedont electric guitars have a pickup to catch the string vibrations23:08
_trinenothing to do with impedance23:08
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: huh?23:10
DocScrutinizer_trine: what do you think is a pickup?23:10
DocScrutinizerwhat do you think is the name of it'S electrical properties?23:11
GAN900DocScrutinizer, your ass.23:11
_trinethe pickups output could be any impedance23:11
_trineyou wanted it to be23:12
DocScrutinizerAmp input expected to be ~1M Ohm for guitar amps, while voltage can be significantly higer than with mics23:12
DocScrutinizerGAN900: My ass been excellent as usual23:12
MoonTigerso im writing an identica client ... wondered what select * from itemsres would be importantfeatu23:13
MoonTigerlove the random paste there23:13
MoonTigerlet me try that again23:13
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MoonTigerim writing an identica client and wondered what features you think important23:13
_trinethe required impedance would only be the impedance which would match the amplifier you wanted to use so you would get maximum power transfer23:13
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DocScrutinizer_trine: orly. OK, I guess my EE is worth a crap then23:14
_trineis orly a word23:15
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DocScrutinizerin my experience the amp get built to specs of picup, not vice versa23:15
_trinewell that is irrelevant23:16
DocScrutinizerindeed, which part of your explanation isn't - for mohamnmad's problem?23:16
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_trineonly that they match is relevant to a point however for power you would choose a lower impedance23:17
DocScrutinizersure, yes. no doubt23:17
ShadowJK_trine, Orly is the name of a white owl23:18
_trinemaximum power transfer occurs when the impedance is matched23:18
DocScrutinizerI don't choose anything, I have to choose a pickup that sounds nice, or even a guitar that sounds nice and comes with a pickup that *has* a certain impedance23:18
DocScrutinizer_trine: and cake is best when baked23:18
_trineI have no idea what the characteristic impedance is of a guitar pickup23:19
DocScrutinizeraah, good. Now we got something to discuss23:19
_trinebut whatever it is it would need to match the amplifier23:20
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_trinewhen I was a lad23:20
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DocScrutinizerwell, isn't that what I said? Modulo you don't 'match' impedance for audio frequency, rather you make sure input impedance of amp >> source impedance23:21
_trinewe could buy head phones which were 20000 ohms23:21
_trinenow they are 4 and 8 ohms23:21
DocScrutinizerwhere >> usually means factor 10 at least23:22
* _trine opens a bottle of white wine and slurps23:22
DocScrutinizerthe impedance matching is relevant for RF23:23
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DocScrutinizerto get a good SWR23:23
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_trinestand wave ratio does not make a lot of difference23:23
_trineno power is lost23:24
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DocScrutinizerfor LF you want a most neutral transmission which is more like probing than like power transmission, which means the probe (=amp) has to have an impedance high enough to not change the properties of device under test (guitar)23:24
DocScrutinizerso while pickups are typically 100kR, the amp has in imput impedance of 1MR or higher23:26
_trinenot necessarily23:26
DocScrutinizerand the voltage is really high with ~1V RMS23:27
DocScrutinizer_trine: sorrry, I start to get bored and call "Off Topic"23:27
_trinegood idea23:27
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_trineI still have not got pyrit yet :(23:29
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: anyway, you can't possibly connect an E-guitar to N90023:29
sirdancealotthe strings are supposed to be slightly magnetic23:29
sirdancealotcould n900 pick the vibrations up?23:30
DocScrutinizerno sensor for that23:30
DocScrutinizeryou *could* try optical pickup, but the video cam is way too slow for that23:31
_trinecould you not arrange to vibrate the touch screen23:31
DocScrutinizeras is proxy sensor, and ALS23:31
DocScrutinizerhey, how's about using the best builtin sensor we got for that: the microphone ;-P23:32
DocScrutinizerreally, sounds like Friday afternoon23:33
_trinewe're only idly chatting ,,, chewing the cud23:34
DocScrutinizerwe could try to exploit FMTX and FMRX to build a doppler radar X-P23:34
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* DocScrutinizer wonders idly if he enjoyed more the rant about N9 quad core CPU, than discussing EE basics and Oz pickups23:37
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MohammadAG<DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: anyway, you can't possibly connect an E-guitar to N900 damn, I was expecting to have some fun with that23:52
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you at very least would need some simple transformer, or better a buffer amp powered by micbias23:53
DocScrutinizerI could provide schematics if you're inclined :-)23:54
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, well I was actually expecting mic input to work fine, but oh well :p23:54
DocScrutinizeractually a FET amp could work fine for this usecase23:56
DocScrutinizerwoukd probably consist of <10 components23:56
DocScrutinizerI'd even manage to build that thing into the 6.3mm female connector of the needed adapter23:58
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DocScrutinizerthat's however EE weekend fancy23:59
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