IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-06-19

_trine	anyone fancy compiling pyrit for me	00:03
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thopiekar	Pyrit? Sounds like a module.. As i remember from the past at diablo there is a team whos job is to provide modules..	00:05
_trine	svn checkout http://pyrit.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ pyrit_svn	00:06
_trine	http://code.google.com/p/pyrit/	00:06
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_trine	that home page is well out of date though	00:06
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thopiekar	_trine: I'm working at mythtv atm ;)	00:08
_trine	k	00:09
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_trine	pyrit should take about 4 seconds to compile if you have the right build environment	00:10
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trumee	thopiekar: waiting for the binaries :)	00:15
trumee	thopiekar: i did try compiling myth-0.22 sometime as reported in that thread, but wasnt very successfull.	00:16
trumee	thopiekar: Lack of QT3 was the problem iirc, and gles support	00:16
trumee	thopiekar: it seems gles support is present in myth-0.25	00:17
thopiekar	Ill take the qt3 libs from diablo sdk via apt-get source.. And switch to fremantle and compile it there..	00:17
thopiekar	Hope it works	00:17
MohammadAG	it should	00:18
thopiekar	_trine: have you ever packaged?	00:18
_trine	no sorry	00:18
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thopiekar	Damn, can' t install the diablo sdk here.. Using x64..	00:23
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thopiekar	Hmm I'll better prepare a vm then..	00:26
GeneralAntilles	Firefox 5 already?	00:26
GeneralAntilles	Trivializing major release numbers . . . why?	00:26
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thopiekar	_trine how is the package called providing module building when the source is installed?	00:31
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thopiekar	Got it python-support	00:33
_trine	setup.py build	00:34
_trine	setup.py install	00:34
thopiekar	Sure python-support will do it for you when installing the package..	00:35
thopiekar	;)	00:35
_trine	Only pyrit itself will be usful	00:35
_trine	all the other stuff will be of no use on the n900	00:35
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_trine	I just want pyrit so I can verify the 'goodness' of the 4Way handshake	00:36
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_trine	pyrit -r capfile.cap analyze	00:37
thopiekar	_trine: which is the latest python version on fremantle? 2.5?	00:38
_trine	I dont know much about the n900 stuff ,, I have built all this on my PC at the moment	00:39
thopiekar	Check python --version via xterm	00:39
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thopiekar	Ok 2.5 checked that	00:41
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_trine	I used 2.7 on my ubuntu	00:43
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thopiekar	Never mind need to bind it against a python version because scratchbox is doing crazy things.. It would use it own python install.. Afaik	00:44
thopiekar	.. From diablo of course..	00:44
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_trine	I have built machine with some ATI GPU's in it so I can play with pyrit	00:46
_trine	but the n900 is ideal for collecting the 4Way handshake	00:46
_trine	and it can do that in seconds	00:46
_trine	it does 180000 PMK's a second	00:48
thopiekar	Btw. Isn't it already packaged it the ubuntu repos?	00:50
_trine	you mean pyrit?	00:50
thopiekar	Yes	00:50
_trine	I dont know I just compiled the svn	00:51
_trine	and for a pc you also need calpp	00:51
thopiekar	It is..	00:51
_trine	if its in ubuntu its likely to be old	00:52
neal	When a wireless connection is disconnected, is it possible for me to tell whether the user forced the disconnect or whether it was due to inadequate signal? Perhaps via d-bus?	00:52
thopiekar	Next time you need a package from me tell me that xD got here 0.4.0.. Is that ok?	00:52
_trine	yes	00:53
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thopiekar	I would wonder if not got oneiric installed here ;)	00:54
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DocScrutinizer	neal: good question. yes, I'd start with monitoring dbus to find out	01:33
DocScrutinizer	I'd think a user-forced disconnect will show up on dbus in a unique way	01:33
DocScrutinizer	while a signal-loss is an internal thing of, err... that network managing thing, forgot the name NCD2?	01:35
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GeneralAntilles	http://i.imgur.com/NDSmT.jpg	02:24
GeneralAntilles	Huh	02:24
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DocScrutinizer	512MB RAM, 1GHz CPU clock max, nice	02:28
GeneralAntilles	Assuming that's real Cortex A8 and not any of Qualcomm's bullshit	02:29
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, nice.	02:29
DocScrutinizer	(qualcom BS) indeed	02:29
DocScrutinizer	still I bet on c-ts and so MEH!!	02:30
GeneralAntilles	Well	02:30
GeneralAntilles	Rumor has it it'll be more exciting than just c-ts	02:30
GeneralAntilles	Besides	02:30
DocScrutinizer	also not convinced about easy migration from maemo5 to maemo-RM680-15	02:30
GeneralAntilles	Given the number of options here (exactly one) I'm willing to make some compromises.	02:31
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe	02:31
nox-	you guys still think this `mystery device' is real?	02:31
DocScrutinizer	sure it is real	02:31
SpeedEvil	Real - yes.	02:31
DocScrutinizer	I definitely know there are real devices out at testers	02:32
SpeedEvil	Actually coming out and going to be purcahsable by end users - questionable.	02:32
nox-	yeah but it will also be sold?	02:32
DocScrutinizer	that's the question :-P	02:32
nox-	right	02:32
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DocScrutinizer	and even more a question: will it sell	02:32
GeneralAntilles	I'm forced to assume so.	02:32
GeneralAntilles	Given that Nokia has NOTHING else to offer until almost next year.	02:32
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GeneralAntilles	But, I'm often overly optimistic.	02:33
nox-	well at least windows phone isnt really selling either...	02:33
Shapeshifter	ha... "redefining success". What a smart slogan. I guess for nokia, success has been redefined as "not being completely overtaken by everyone else"	02:33
DocScrutinizer	Nokia has to offer own graceful death, nothing more. That's my take on Nokia for this time	02:33
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DocScrutinizer	and honestly who's going to buy RM680? maemo fanboys? hardly.	02:34
DocScrutinizer	meego fanboys? who are those anyway?	02:34
GeneralAntilles	Depends on how they position it	02:35
Shapeshifter	huh	02:35
GeneralAntilles	If it's a compelling device with good appeal	02:35
* DocScrutinizer slaps himself and shuts up		02:35
GeneralAntilles	Lots of people will buy it.	02:35
Shapeshifter	I will buy it if it's significantly better than the n900	02:35
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: there is a LOT of hw 'better than N900' out there. Why exactly would you buy RM680?	02:36
* nox- wonders if the best we'll get wont just end up as no-need-to-jailbreak android phones...		02:36
GeneralAntilles	Nokia folks were pretty enthusiastic about it in SF.	02:36
GeneralAntilles	nox-, sure seems to be trending that way.	02:36
* GeneralAntilles trying to save an HTML attachment from Gmail last night on 2.2 almost made me kill myself.		02:37
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: it's not just about hardware	02:37
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: exactly my point	02:37
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: if it has faster IO and a more streamlined/open linux, I may consider it	02:37
Shapeshifter	maemo is a bother at times	02:38
Shapeshifter	maemo5	02:38
DocScrutinizer	I'm not temped to consider yet another closed linux ecosystem not compatible to maemo5	02:38
GeneralAntilles	/How do people use Android and like it?!/	02:38
GeneralAntilles	Is my question for the month	02:38
nox-	`dont know better'?	02:38
DocScrutinizer	if this rm680 thing is done right regarding OS, it would even run maemo5 binaries	02:39
nox-	heh	02:39
GeneralAntilles	nox-, but people like zerojay and dneary moving from Maemo to Android.	02:39
GeneralAntilles	I couldn't manage it.	02:39
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: too many negations. what do you mean?	02:39
DocScrutinizer	eh?	02:39
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: you're saying you think they will be compatible	02:40
nox-	GeneralAntilles, well maemo is kinda dead so might be understandable in a way...	02:40
DocScrutinizer	I mean I'm not interested in maemo5-meego-chimera	02:40
DocScrutinizer	err	02:40
GeneralAntilles	nox-, well, dneary was using a G1 at the time.	02:40
DocScrutinizer	I mean I'm not interested in maemo6-meego-chimera	02:40
Shapeshifter	so you don't want them to be compatible?	02:40
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smhar	what exactly is rm680?	02:40
Shapeshifter	smhar: the new mystery nokia	02:40
nox-	..that might never be sold :P	02:41
DocScrutinizer	commonly quoted as "N9"	02:41
Shapeshifter	man. it's incredible, if you were able to add up all the hours people spend 'anticipating' some hazy device	02:41
Shapeshifter	could be considered damage to the economy. and health	02:42
DocScrutinizer	probably shipped with a "meego" that's actually a maemo-harmattan crippled to >look like< meego	02:42
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, doubtful.	02:42
GeneralAntilles	Pretty niche right here.	02:42
smhar	is it release yet or a date announced?	02:42
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: eww, if you put it that way	02:42
nox-	DocScrutinizer, haha	02:42
Shapeshifter	but maemo5 is already a crippled linux	02:43
DocScrutinizer	and you bet it will cause more pain in your A** than you can take, trying to migrate from your m5 environment to that "meego"	02:43
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: whatever maemo5 is, it's well supported by community and rather understood right now	02:44
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: mh, yeah. it can do some amazing stuff. at the same time, some things are just terrible. on a basic level. like modest.	02:45
DocScrutinizer	and alot of that support been based on the rationale of maemo-os to come would offer an easy migration path	02:45
smhar	I really do not understand Nokia anymore, didn't they just dumped linux in favor of windows?!	02:45
Shapeshifter	maps was also terrible, at least the alternatives are starting to be useful	02:45
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Shapeshifter	but it's not a very smart device. It's not a smart phone. more like a crippled miniature-laptop.	02:46
Shapeshifter	which is also okay	02:47
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: ask for those maps alternatives' availability for RM680 prior to jumping into it head down	02:47
DocScrutinizer	s/down/first/	02:47
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: Shapeshifter: ask for those maps alternatives' availability for RM680 prior to jumping into it head first	02:47
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: oh I'm not one of those people who buy anything right after the release etc.	02:47
Shapeshifter	or preorder	02:47
Shapeshifter	preordering is something I cannot understand	02:47
Shapeshifter	will read lots of angry reviews first.	02:47
Shapeshifter	it was amazing to see how many people bought an N900 and were terribly unhappy, even though its limitations were apparent.	02:48
SpeedEvil	smhar: yes, they did. However, they are committed - for reasons that are unclear - to release a 'meego' device - and they have not as yet backed away from this publically.	02:48
DocScrutinizer	I can't see jumping RM60 a single power user of N900 incl all the necessary auxiliary stuff from maemo-extras to make your life easier and phone useful for you	02:49
DocScrutinizer	RM680*	02:49
SpeedEvil	It depends on what the basis is.	02:49
SpeedEvil	Err	02:49
loft306	wwill it ever see the light of dayL	02:49
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: well if migration isn't hard and the stock apps are better plus the device being more powerful, I don't see much of a problem	02:49
SpeedEvil	what the underlying software is.	02:49
loft306	?	02:50
SpeedEvil	loft306: We don't know.	02:50
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: I preordered N900 on the rationale it had maemo as OS	02:50
SpeedEvil	loft306: Those that do know can't say.	02:50
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: well you're an 'enthusiast'	02:50
loft306	and if it dose will i have to goto EU?	02:50
smhar	SpeedEvil, I lost my N900 and I am soon getting another one, I can not put my bets on nokia anymore, probably intel but not nokia	02:50
loft306	enen though it passed the FCC	02:50
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: migration will be a PITA	02:51
SpeedEvil	loft306: DEvices can pass FCC and not be sold.	02:51
loft306	i know	02:51
DocScrutinizer	just my 2 cents though	02:51
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: how do you know, now	02:51
Shapeshifter	if it's really a maemo '6'	02:51
Shapeshifter	posing as meego	02:51
DocScrutinizer	I extrapolate from what I know about meego-arm	02:51
Shapeshifter	well, do you even know what package management it's going to use?	02:52
DocScrutinizer	I hope I'm wrong, honestly	02:52
Shapeshifter	is it going to be rpm?	02:52
DocScrutinizer	nope, probably not, though I dunno	02:52
Shapeshifter	it seems like we know nothing, neither positive nor negative.	02:52
Shapeshifter	well, apart from nokia generally screwing up.	02:53
DocScrutinizer	I'm more concerned about all the 'middleware' libs and stuff, like sensors, location, whatnot	02:53
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: More important than RPM. Will it support PNG?	02:53
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: >.>	02:53
smhar	Shapeshifter, I know something for sure by now, never trust Nokia on any thing they say, wait until you actually see the device	02:53
Shapeshifter	PNG? as in... pictures? I'm not getting the joke.	02:53
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: so you fear the interfaces will be incompatible and all software using some middleware will break?	02:54
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: nvm - someone at the meego conference who asked silly questions.	02:54
DocScrutinizer	all the hacks that fix issues for maemo5, starting at simple-backlight-applet over tweakr for user defined profiles, to dunno what. All that will not work anymore on maemo6-meego and I'm not willing to use a device that is back to the shitty UX maemo5 PR1.0 offered to me	02:55
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: exactly	02:55
Shapeshifter	a sane concern	02:56
DocScrutinizer	aaah PNG, now I got the pun	02:57
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter: there was an old Chinese guy asking inane questions in all of the talks at the MeeGo conf.	02:58
GeneralAntilles	"What does the Q stand for?" [in QML]	02:58
GeneralAntilles	"Awesome!"	02:58
GeneralAntilles	http://www.flickr.com/photos/generalantilles/5758755051/in/photostream	02:59
DocScrutinizer	basically I got same concerns with m6/meego-fake as with every OS update. I'm a power user that invests a lot of time to configure the user interface to his needs. I'm not willing to "simply reinstall windows to fix it"	02:59
Shapeshifter	GeneralAntilles: oh	02:59
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: btw, backlight-applet, custom profiles, those are the kind of things I'd expect from a 'smartphone'	03:00
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Shapeshifter	like, basic	03:00
GeneralAntilles	Apparently he's a bit of a local legend in the valley	03:00
GeneralAntilles	Goes to many of the tech confs.	03:00
DocScrutinizer	first thing I do after a OS upgrade: figure how to reset all the stuff so it looks like the old OS	03:00
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer: dinosaur	03:00
lolcat	I don't understand	03:00
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: you don't like change, do you	03:00
DocScrutinizer	for m6/meego there's no way to do that	03:00
lolcat	How can the creators of Maemo, something so perfect, also make Symbian who sucks so hard	03:01
GeneralAntilles	Because Nokia is a big goddamn company.	03:01
lolcat	When is the N9 announcment?	03:01
Shapeshifter	maybe they should've split up everything and become 'Nokia Holding'	03:01
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DocScrutinizer	there's (been) nokia-maemo and there's nokia-symbian. The two are unrelated except for quite some fighting behind the scenes I guess	03:02
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lolcat	But like	03:03
lolcat	They are so opposite	03:03
lolcat	The idea is completly diffrent	03:03
lolcat	"Hey lets make an open simple, usable and efficent os" vs "Hey lets make a locked down piece of shit, where software errors only can be fixed by reinstall, lets make it impssible to see what is fucking up your system, and lets close it down as much as possible"	03:04
* DocScrutinizer suspects the meego-merger idea originated from some symbian-crew spindoctor		03:04
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Shapeshifter	jeez meego day one was on June 30, 2010... it's been that long? o.o	03:06
DocScrutinizer	depressing	03:06
DocScrutinizer	if that's what "synergy" gets you, then screw synergy	03:07
DocScrutinizer	maemo would be shining today, if they'd have put as much effort in making it clean, as they've put in meego just to make it run at all	03:08
Shapeshifter	"future disruption in mobile ecosystem" that sounds so desperate...	03:08
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DocScrutinizer	...and probably been meant exactly as desperate as it sounds	03:10
loft306	haha	03:10
DocScrutinizer	they never managed to integrate maemo into "Ovi eco-system"	03:11
loft306	didnt try hard enough	03:12
SpeedEvil	It's openmoko writ large.	03:12
DocScrutinizer	yeah	03:12
SpeedEvil	(though with maybe 100* the sales and an actual usable device)	03:12
DocScrutinizer	a fsckng deja-vu	03:12
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SpeedEvil	(not knocking the OM hardware)	03:13
SpeedEvil	:)	03:13
DocScrutinizer	nah, N900 had better potential than FR	03:13
DocScrutinizer	both the hw (obviously) and the OS	03:13
SpeedEvil	Sure, but the hw wasn't the limit.	03:13
lolcat	fr?	03:14
DocScrutinizer	never been	03:14
SpeedEvil	FreeRunner	03:14
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lolcat	I can't wait for N9	03:14
DocScrutinizer	it's always the management screwing up by patronizing SW department into weird directions	03:14
lolcat	I am hearing 64gb storage	03:14
DocScrutinizer	so what?	03:14
lolcat	I can install maemo for it?	03:15
DocScrutinizer	I cab put 64GB storage into my N900 tomorrow	03:15
DocScrutinizer	can*	03:15
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lolcat	really?	03:15
nid0	I can mount a 2tb local nfs share on mine, go me!	03:15
DocScrutinizer	lolcat: really	03:15
lolcat	I can mount 6x 2tb usb disks	03:15
lolcat	It doens't make it practical	03:15
DocScrutinizer	32GB eMMC + 32GB uSD	03:15
lolcat	...	03:16
lolcat	But the N9 does 32 eMMC + 64	03:16
DocScrutinizer	pfff	03:16
lolcat	It has like, 1gb ram	03:17
lolcat	And like, stuff that you need	03:17
DocScrutinizer	BS, see above. It has 512MB ram	03:17
lolcat	Above?	03:18
lolcat	Doesn't the N900?	03:18
nid0	no	03:18
DocScrutinizer	search backscoll for 512MB	03:18
lolcat	gsmarena says 728 or something	03:18
Shapeshifter	when I'm rich, I will make a good open phone	03:19
Shapeshifter	just you wait and see :<	03:19
SpeedEvil	When I'm rich, I want to follow in the steps of Richard Branston.	03:20
smhar	Shapeshifter, openmoko2 ?	03:20
SpeedEvil	(waterskiiing round his own private island with a naked supermodel on his back)	03:20
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lolcat	mAKIN a good phone is so easy	03:20
SpeedEvil	But a open phone, or 4:3 laptops would be good.	03:20
lolcat	Real debian + maemo gui	03:20
lolcat	Done	03:20
nid0	could you add 16:10 monitors to the list as well?	03:21
Shapeshifter	sorry, no debian	03:21
SpeedEvil	To develop a decent phone saleable as a mass market device is going to cost 10 million.	03:21
* DocScrutinizer smells trolling		03:21
SpeedEvil	That is - for an initial run of 50000 or so, and software development.	03:21
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Seriously, that is all it needs. A dialer, contacts, IM integration. it can't be that complicated	03:21
Shapeshifter	nid0: you know the silicon graphics SW1600?	03:21
lolcat	Debian is allready made, gui is just graphics	03:21
DocScrutinizer	lolcat: go ahead, you got all the platform, with m5 and N900	03:22
SpeedEvil	lolcat: powersaving is hard.	03:22
Shapeshifter	my phone will run on diesel.	03:22
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nid0	Shapeshifter: they certainly exist, but theyre irritatingly rare and hellishly expensive since all the monitor manufactures cheaped out and started using TV panels	03:22
Shapeshifter	brb developing thumb sized diesel fuel cells	03:23
SpeedEvil	4:3 screens also exist.	03:23
SpeedEvil	New.	03:23
lolcat	m5?	03:23
SpeedEvil	they are even less eyewateringly expensive than they were a couple of years ago.	03:23
Shapeshifter	nid0: A colleague is giving one away. :\| but I don't want that AGP2x card. And I don't want to buy one of those new adaptors for 160usd if I can just buy a 24" screen for 200usd.	03:23
lolcat	SpeedEvil: SSD + amoled	03:24
Shapeshifter	and after all, it's just 17"	03:24
lolcat	A cpu with three cores	03:24
lolcat	one small one for ideling and interrupts	03:24
lolcat	2 big ones for aweseomness	03:24
Shapeshifter	where did openmoko get their funding from?	03:25
DocScrutinizer	lolcat: please tell me the part number, we're going to use that asym MP device for our next product	03:25
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: FIC basically	03:25
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: what's that?	03:26
DocScrutinizer	which led to the common misconception of OM being a FIC subdivision	03:26
DocScrutinizer	Fist International Computers	03:26
DocScrutinizer	First even	03:26
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Yout next product?	03:26
Shapeshifter	mhh	03:26
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DocScrutinizer	lolcat: Openmoko GTA03-mk2 been following the concept of offloading small tasks to a small auxiliary CPU	03:28
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: so, why did the openmoko fail?	03:28
Shapeshifter	apart from being terribly fat	03:28
lolcat	Shapeshifter: Software	03:28
DocScrutinizer	Venture capital said "it's enough now"	03:29
ludens	um im trying to see what flash versions are available for my N900 but im getting very confused, could someone pls point me somewhere or sum it up? kthx	03:29
lolcat	DocScrutinizer: But you don't have a cpu to do it?	03:29
lolcat	ludens: Flash 10	03:29
Shapeshifter	ludens: iirc flash 9	03:29
ludens	lolcat: thanks and where do i get it?	03:29
DocScrutinizer	lolcat: we don't have a company to build any device from OM now	03:29
lolcat	ludens: ham?	03:29
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lolcat	DocScrutinizer: I am sure china has one	03:29
DocScrutinizer	ludens: there's exactly one proper flash version: the rev9 shipped with maemo, which got some patches to be more like 10 rather than 9	03:30
ludens	ok thx DocScrutinizer	03:31
ludens	thats what i suspected	03:31
DocScrutinizer	there's no update or alternative that really delivers	03:31
Shapeshifter	I hate how software for maemo is half-assedly patched - basically just to break compatibility	03:31
Shapeshifter	pulse is one example	03:31
ludens	and it wont run any new flash stuff	03:31
Shapeshifter	man. it's incredible how far behind the phone market is regarding openness	03:32
Shapeshifter	ha	03:33
DocScrutinizer	indeed	03:33
ludens	what does TweakFlash do?	03:33
Shapeshifter	I didn't know android wasn't a google project at the beginning... http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2005/tc20050817_0949_tc024.htm	03:33
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DocScrutinizer	it tweaks the maemo flashlib to report rev10 afaik	03:34
ludens	will it make it possible to see more videos that i cant see now?	03:34
Shapeshifter	'The search giant quietly acquires the startup, netting possibly a key player in its push into wireless, "the next frontier in search"'	03:34
ludens	okay	03:34
DocScrutinizer	ludens: ^^^	03:34
Shapeshifter	oh how right they were	03:34
ludens	ill try that, thanks	03:34
DocScrutinizer	keep a backup of your files! yw	03:35
ludens	oh tweakflash requires flashing?	03:36
* DocScrutinizer suggests backupmenu to ludens		03:36
ludens	thanks	03:36
ludens	heard about it	03:36
ludens	but i really dont have time to risk having to reflash	03:36
DocScrutinizer	that's what backupmenu is for	03:36
DocScrutinizer	hopefully restoring things without a complete flash plus configuring adventure	03:37
DocScrutinizer	of course you need to install and create backup before you mess up things ;-)	03:37
ludens	in what repo can i find backupmenu?	03:37
DocScrutinizer	extras-devel I guess	03:38
ludens	cant see it	03:38
ludens	:sd	03:38
DocScrutinizer	hmm	03:38
ludens	i cant see why i would need to reflash just because i mess with my flash player?	03:38
nox-	what was that broken thing that just `dd.d' over flash ignoring bad blocks? no backupmenu?	03:38
nox-	s/no/not/	03:38
infobot	nox- meant: what was that broken thing that just `dd.d' over flash ignotring bad blocks? no backupmenu?	03:38
nox-	ergh :)	03:39
nox-	s/no /not /	03:39
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.org/packages/view/backupmenu/	03:39
ludens	thx	03:39
DocScrutinizer	nox-: backupmenu-I	03:39
nox-	oh	03:40
DocScrutinizer	RobieTheFirst fixed it after we started bashing him ;-)	03:40
nox-	aah :)	03:40
DocScrutinizer	nox-: btw it would've worked with 2nd s/// if you hadn't posted "ergh :)" :-P	03:41
nox-	heh	03:41
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ludens	so, whats new about the N9 :)	03:56
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ludens	hm not much then	04:05
ludens	ok next question... on a scale of 1 to 10, how cool is the community SSU? should i get it?	04:06
Hurrian	ludens: 7	04:07
ludens	:)	04:07
Hurrian	mostly for blurless and camera-ui2	04:07
Hurrian	and zoom on touch	04:07
ludens	blurless?	04:07
Hurrian	and rotation lock	04:07
Hurrian	blurless -> desaturates bg instead of blurring	04:07
Hurrian	i dont really like portrait mode	04:08
ludens	ah	04:08
Hurrian	maemo doesnt look like it's made for portrait	04:08
Hurrian	wonder why so many kids are bitching real hard over it	04:08
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ludens	its very convenient when you only have one hand available	04:08
Hurrian	they're as loud as the people who say "CAN NITDROID CALL?"	04:08
Hurrian	or	04:08
ludens	it can be kind of hard to operate the phone with one hand in landscape	04:09
Hurrian	"DOES NITDROID STILL BURN YOUR HAND?"	04:09
ludens	anyway whats camera-ui2	04:09
Hurrian	it's a better camera-ui	04:09
Hurrian	just got used to it	04:09
Hurrian	iso 1600, distance measuring, better focusing	04:09
ludens	oooh	04:10
ludens	sounds awesome	04:10
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Hurrian	also, the n900 is easy to use one-handed if you have large hands	04:11
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Hurrian	wrap around phone, use thumb to slide it open	04:11
Hurrian	move phone around, reach switcher	04:11
Hurrian	*task switcher	04:12
Hurrian	launch any apps	04:12
SpeedEvil	Hurrian: Drop hone in toilet as you're turning it round.	04:12
Hurrian	speedevil: you stand near open toilets?	04:12
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SpeedEvil	Some seem to.	04:13
Hurrian	D:	04:13
nox-	o_O	04:13
Hurrian	camkeyd + multiple home screens	04:13
Hurrian	all you'll likely need when having only one hand free	04:13
Hurrian	put index finger on top edge of the bottom shell, thum on the bottom part of the slider	04:14
Hurrian	slide up, start typing out contact name	04:14
ludens	i've been using Bless900 for the camera. is camera-ui2 better?	04:14
Hurrian	@ludens: worse quality, but it doesnt take 100% CPU for 5 seconds	04:14
ludens	yea thats nice	04:15
DocScrutinizer	I fail to see the superior quality of blesn900 shots	04:16
ludens	sometimes its very good, most times not really	04:17
ludens	wait, camkeyd is what?	04:17
GAN900	Awesome	04:17
Hurrian	ludens: half-press camera button and it opens the task switcher	04:18
ludens	sweet	04:18
ludens	thats really sweet	04:18
ludens	does the daemon behave?	04:18
Hurrian	yes	04:19
ludens	great	04:19
Hurrian	iirc shortcutd replaced it	04:19
Hurrian	you can use the proximity sensor instead	04:19
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* DocScrutinizer is happy with MHD (ships per default with CSSU) and ctl-BS: http://maemo.org/packages/view/backupmenu/		04:29
DocScrutinizer	oops#	04:29
DocScrutinizer	http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.screenshots/joerg900.10092	04:29
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DocScrutinizer	all that fuss about portrait mode is beyond me, I can't do anything reasonably in portrait anyway, except calling - and caller-ui is portrait since beginning of times	04:31
DocScrutinizer	look, if I wanted a portrait phone with an OS completely targeted on finger (/ thumb) usage, I'd probably gotten an iPhone, or palm pre	04:33
DocScrutinizer	I don't buy a device with a full qwerty kbd in landscape mode, to finally find HAM(!!!) rotate to portrait when clicking "details" of a package	04:35
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psycho_oreos	there's landscape lock mode for that DocScrutinizer :)	05:03
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ludens	DocScrutinizer: um what is MHD?	05:06
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: uhum you noticed it doesn't obviously work for me as expected anyway?	05:06
DocScrutinizer	ludens: modified (matan's) hildon desktop	05:07
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DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: "regression" of that oh-so-awesome portrait-enabled HAM	05:08
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DocScrutinizer	now that's real progress ;-P	05:08
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, not sure :) but one thing I did find annoying is the standard landscape to portrait transition	05:09
psycho_oreos	apart from that I locked it mostly to landscape, of course I guess landscaped phone call is somewhat rather annoying	05:09
DocScrutinizer	one thing I find annoying are users concerned about HAM not working in portrait mode, so they can't install new apps while biking X-P	05:10
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ludens	id love another button for task switching than ctrl-BS	05:10
DocScrutinizer	well, me too	05:11
ludens	cam key seems like a nice alternative	05:11
psycho_oreos	arguably that's not meant to be the case :D　you're not supposed to use phones whilst operating something else in conjunction as well. Over here you probably get booked if cops saw you doing that	05:11
DocScrutinizer	but alas that's the one already in place from maemo stock	05:11
ludens	DocScrutinizer: do you mean the task switching you show in that video comes with CSSU?	05:12
ludens	id love to try it	05:12
DocScrutinizer	ludens: exactly	05:12
ludens	DocScrutinizer: so how do i activate it	05:12
DocScrutinizer	see my wiki user page "tools"	05:12
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools	05:13
DocScrutinizer	you need to set a gconf key to define operation mode of "alt-tab" aka ctrl-bs	05:13
ludens	i gotta say the CSSU camera is really sweet	05:19
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DocScrutinizer	it's nicola's camera basically, and I don't know why it needs to come with CSSU. But that's another story	05:27
DocScrutinizer	good to hear it stopped sucking apparently, for you	05:28
ludens	yes compared to others ive used	05:28
DocScrutinizer	heard it tended to segfault a lot previously	05:28
ludens	what else is changed with this update, except the hildon-desktop things?	05:29
DocScrutinizer	anyway I'd prefer to install it as a noraml alternative package, like fcam or blessn900	05:29
ludens	yeah makes sense	05:29
DocScrutinizer	ludens: (what else) see changelog	05:29
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DocScrutinizer	(alternative) if you want this particular cam as your default one, there should be a dirt simple GUI to select the default, not a CSSU to install this particular camera-ui as default unconditionally and irreversibly	05:32
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ver	would i see much improvement recompiling maemo with a tegra250 toolchain?	05:38
ver	meh, i'll find out i guess.	05:38
DocScrutinizer	of course everybody able to type a shell commandline can deal with this as well by using the command ln -s on >>lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 2011-03-06 21:41 /usr/bin/camera-ui -> /usr/bin/maemo-invoker	05:39
DocScrutinizer	(default camera ^^^)	05:40
DocScrutinizer	now if only I knew what's a tegra250 toolchain	05:40
DocScrutinizer	but I'm sure you will improve a lot on doing this exercise - as is usual with all exercises done ;-)	05:41
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DocScrutinizer	if you want to keep this option of selecting your default camera, I suggest you create a backup of -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 278852 2010-07-27 10:29 /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch prior to installing CSSU, as that's one of the files that get irreversibly nuked and can't get re-installed once your CSSU decided on which camra you ought to use from now on :-S	05:48
DocScrutinizer	restoring this file after CSSU installed and nuked it will enable you to select default camera-ui by simply switching the symlink quoted above	05:49
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DocScrutinizer	which is exactly what I'd expect CSSU to do for the keep-that-file part, and the dirt-cheap-deafultcam-switcher for changing the symlink	05:50
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DocScrutinizer	there've been concerns about "meddling with symlinks messes up system" - I can't see that	05:51
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DocScrutinizer	(for those wondering: maemo-launcher is a speedup for arbitrary mameo executables. It calls xxx.launch when maemo-launcher gets called (via symlink) as xxx )	05:53
DocScrutinizer	so in above example the camera-ui symlink usually calls maemo-launcher which calls (the original) camera-ui.launch in turn. CSSU redirects this symlink to cssu-camera-ui or whatever, and you can bend it back to its original value any time. Just need a reboot to make system aware	05:56
DocScrutinizer	of course if somebody (GRR) decides it's wise to nuke camera-ui.launch, then you're screwed unless you have a backup	05:57
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DocScrutinizer	while I'm at it: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/sbin/ seems to have a copy I accidentally left here public, for those already screwed by CSSU wrt to default camera-ui	06:10
ludens	cool thanks	06:12
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DocScrutinizer	I wonder if CSSU maintainers pondered there might be processes calling maemo-launcher directly via execve() or whatever, and just setting argv[0]="canera-ui", which will inevitably fail when original camera-ui.launch got nuked	06:22
DocScrutinizer	well, it will fail anyway for canera-ui, but should launch original maemo cam with "camera-ui" ;-P	06:23
DocScrutinizer	but doesn't when executable got nuked	06:24
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GeneralAntilles	http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/06/evidence-rumours-meego%e2%80%99s-death-greatly-exaggerated/	06:52
GeneralAntilles	Love the tagline.	06:52
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SpeedEvil	It's pining for the Fjoords.	07:07
ver	DocScrutinizer, tegra uses a cortex a9 with soft mmu i think	07:08
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SpeedEvil	Wacky.	07:39
SpeedEvil	On inspecting ppp logs.	07:39
SpeedEvil	Jun 19 03:06:34 pad pppd[19800]: sent [LCP ConfAck id=0x6 <mru 1500> <asyncmap 0xa0000>]	07:39
* SpeedEvil wonders why my ISP objects to chars 30 and 31		07:39
SpeedEvil	(t-mobile, UK)	07:40
DocScrutinizer	ver: so you plan to compile maemo for a different hw platform? won't fly for all I know	07:41
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: lost me	07:42
SpeedEvil	asyncmap is 'please don't send these control chars'	07:42
SpeedEvil	in a ppp auth sequence	07:42
DocScrutinizer	aah	07:43
DocScrutinizer	fail to decode char(30) / (31) there	07:43
SpeedEvil	0xa0000	07:43
DocScrutinizer	oh wait, that's 5 digits, weird	07:44
SpeedEvil	It's a bitmap of chars, including 0	07:44
DocScrutinizer	o.O	07:44
DocScrutinizer	in my book 0x0000 == b[31:0]0	07:45
SpeedEvil	umm	07:46
SpeedEvil	yeah	07:46
SpeedEvil	I don't understand what the leading 'a' is for.	07:47
* DocScrutinizer neither		07:47
DocScrutinizer	tbh I never even heard of asyncmap before	07:47
SpeedEvil	It's ooold.	07:47
SpeedEvil	I was bored enough to be reading ppp logs.	07:48
SpeedEvil	And hacking on a proof of concept non-working demo for the web compressor	07:49
DocScrutinizer	aah web compressor	07:49
DocScrutinizer	I#m just wrapping my head around 802.15.4	07:50
SpeedEvil	It'd be nice if zigbee had taken off, and gotten interoperable switches actually cheap	07:50
SpeedEvil	Saw the /. on the nanonote	07:50
DocScrutinizer	yeah	07:51
SpeedEvil	had no modpoints though	07:51
DocScrutinizer	zigbee is >> 802.15.4 though	07:51
SpeedEvil	yes	07:51
SpeedEvil	lots more stack.	07:51
DocScrutinizer	wpan only specifies phy and mac layer	07:51
SpeedEvil	And zigbee is annotingly nonfree	07:51
DocScrutinizer	yep	07:51
DocScrutinizer	while wpan is as free as it gets	07:52
DocScrutinizer	the wole purpose of wpan been a simple protocol, as wifi and BT were considered too complex :-P	07:53
DocScrutinizer	wpan otoh should survive >1 year on passive standby - one of its design goals	07:54
SpeedEvil	The raw air-format of wifi isn't too bad.	07:54
DocScrutinizer	from bat that is	07:54
SpeedEvil	It's just that there are so damn many layers.	07:54
DocScrutinizer	yeah, as are in zigbee probably	07:54
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	07:55
DocScrutinizer	clustered trees in wpan are just compex enough and exceed the mere 802.15.4 specs, thus creating need for crap like zigbee	07:55
DocScrutinizer	I'd prefer the LISS approach	07:56
DocScrutinizer	KISS even	07:56
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cloudyLights	tzafrir: hi?	09:38
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cloudyLights	tzafrir_laptop: so I i didnt hear from you	09:45
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ludens	hm does anyone know how to make links in terminal open with firefox?	10:45
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ludens	i use browser switchboard, but when i click links, nothing happens	10:48
ludens	if i run 'browser' in a terminal, firefox opens	10:48
ludens	known problem or just me?	10:49
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Macer	Greece is socialist??	13:42
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psycho_oreos	any of you guys played with qimsys from extras-devel?	13:48
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Hurrian	@psycho_oreos: not yet, but it looks a lot better than the n900's software keyboard	13:53
HRH_H_Crab	i must say i was a bit saddened that the cssu stuff hasnt given me gapless playback, BUT...	13:54
HRH_H_Crab	...awesome work on improving the terminal!	13:54
Hurrian	@HRH_H_Crab: blame MAFW	13:55
HRH_H_Crab	i've not had to use "reset" once!	13:55
HRH_H_Crab	it doesnt matter how many screens within screens im in,	13:55
HRH_H_Crab	keys are doing what they are supposed to!	13:55
MohammadAG	patches welcome for gapless playback :p	13:55
Hurrian	which reminds me, i need to ask MAG for Home and End buttons for XTerm	13:55
psycho_oreos	Hurrian, the latest qimsys (version 2.0) prevents one from using the default onscreen keyboard	13:56
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Hurrian	can't use imswitch	13:56
Hurrian	?	13:56
MohammadAG	psycho_oreos, permanently?	13:56
psycho_oreos	MohammadAG, I'm guessing at this point in time, permanently yes	13:57
MohammadAG	psycho_oreos, and uninstalling it won't bring that back?	13:57
HRH_H_Crab	MohammadAG: im not trying to nag. i totally understand that there must be some horrific reason why it isnt trivial to implement it.	13:58
psycho_oreos	I've removed qimsys-* and still unable to get onscreen keyboard back. My other n900 without having installed the latest qimsys-* but has literally the exact same setup as the one having issues shows no virtual keyboard losses.	13:58
psycho_oreos	MohammadAG, nope, not even downgrading, removing and even purging it	13:58
MohammadAG	interesting, /me installs it	13:59
Hurrian	psycho_oreos, tried running imswitch?	13:59
MohammadAG	psycho_oreos, is it a big improvement over the stock keyboard?	13:59
psycho_oreos	Hurrian, no clue, you mean hildom/mscim switcher thing?　did that and restarted osso-xterm twice, didn't work	13:59
psycho_oreos	MohammadAG, I couldn't get qimsys to work lol	14:00
psycho_oreos	not only did I　lose virtual keyboard, I couldn't type Japanese at the time	14:00
Hurrian	@HRH_H_Crab , i'm guessing MAFW lets go of the pulse pipe	14:01
Hurrian	i'm yet to look at the code	14:01
cloudyLights	hi MohammadAG	14:01
MohammadAG	wait, so it's only japanese?	14:01
MohammadAG	hey cloudyLights	14:01
MohammadAG	anyone experienced in gstreamer and C can add gapless playback	14:02
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psycho_oreos	no, it doesn't input anything when one enables qimsys (2.0)	14:02
cloudyLights	the python app I worte is not packaged well	14:02
HRH_H_Crab	well, whatever the case, massive thanks to whoever sorted out the terminal!	14:02
HRH_H_Crab	you rock!	14:02
cloudyLights	will try to ask in 5hr here	14:02
HRH_H_Crab	i use my n900 for shelling in to my machines at home a great deal	14:02
cloudyLights	also wanted to say thanks for CSSU	14:02
HRH_H_Crab	and i frequently use nested screens	14:02
psycho_oreos	though I did notice there was one extra input box when I was trying to find music to play with mediaplayer	14:03
HRH_H_Crab	apps like mutt were often pretty impossible to use due to keyboard wierdness	14:03
* Shapeshifter hasn't used the onscreen keyboard even once. doesn't see the point >.>		14:03
HRH_H_Crab	but that now seems to be a thing of the past.	14:03
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Hurrian	best things about CSSU: blurless, zoom-on-press, tactile, camera-ui2, osso-xterm	14:03
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psycho_oreos	Shapeshifter, I don't use the standard one alot of the time, but its the extra syms that are also affected. This is particularly annoying if you're working with shell and you can use things like: `, \|, { and } for instance	14:04
MohammadAG	psycho_oreos, no, I meant is qimsys only for JP input?	14:04
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psycho_oreos	MohammadAG, it looks like its supposed to be :)	14:05
* MohammadAG uninstalls		14:05
psycho_oreos	mscim allows a broader range of input, though at the time I've only tried Japanese	14:06
Shapeshifter	psycho_oreos: I've bound all of those symbols to some combination. I replaced a character I never use (ç on my keyboard) with \|, fn+left is {, fn+right is } fn+shift+left is [ fn+shift+right is ], <, > are also there	14:08
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psycho_oreos	Shapeshifter, nice that's one other way of doing things :)	14:09
cloudyLights	MohammadAG: I see that you fixed the osso pdf app	14:10
cloudyLights	MohammadAG: is the source for calender app also open?	14:10
cloudyLights	can we add features there?	14:10
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MohammadAG	cloudyLights, no, I only merged patches for it	14:11
MohammadAG	the calendar app is closed, engine's open	14:11
cloudyLights	what do you think will be the future for getting a better calender?	14:12
cloudyLights	gpe?	14:12
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zzbottom	HI	14:14
zzbottom	Have enabled sshd on my maemo	14:14
zzbottom	Disabled root login (for security)	14:14
Hurrian	zzbottom: did you change root password?	14:14
zzbottom	Yep	14:14
zzbottom	But that is not the issue	14:14
zzbottom	I have created a user, that I want to use for ssh	14:15
zzbottom	and the to su to root.	14:15
zzbottom	So...	14:15
zzbottom	I need to add this to the sudoers.	14:15
zzbottom	Let me just check to be sure...	14:15
Hurrian	W.M.O.: Sudo relies on /etc/sudoers, a configuration file that details who can run what commands. /etc/sudoers is traditionally modified by using the 'visudo' command. DO NOT DO THIS ON MAEMO. In maemo sudoers is regenerated periodically from config snippets in /etc/sudoers.d/, using visudo can cause the slow death of your system as your edit gets pushed further down /etc/sudoers.	14:16
zzbottom	I use visudo and I add <the user> ALL=(ALL) ALL	14:16
Hurrian	>>>>>/etc/sudoers is traditionally modified by using the 'visudo' command. DO NOT DO THIS ON MAEMO.	14:16
zzbottom	ok	14:16
zzbottom	...	14:16
zzbottom	hmm	14:16
zzbottom	then how to sudo?	14:17
MoonTiger	zzbottom, the "root" cmd doesnt work for you?	14:17
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zzbottom	Don't think so through ssh.	14:17
zzbottom	It does from localhost...	14:17
MoonTiger	ssh is just u being on a remote machine	14:17
MoonTiger	shouldnt be any diff	14:17
zzbottom	but let me try remote	14:17
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zzbottom	<username >is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.	14:18
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zzbottom	is the output when I "root" from the user I have created.	14:18
Hurrian	what the crap, sudoers gives each program an entry	14:18
Hurrian	nokia sure did choose to do everything ass-backwards	14:19
MoonTiger	nokia == muppets	14:19
zzbottom	not cool	14:19
MoonTiger	ok gotta go back to coding	14:19
MoonTiger	laterz	14:19
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zzbottom	On the device, "root" gives me root access. (from the standard "user" login), default.	14:20
zzbottom	But when ssh'ing and login on to the device using a newly created user, I get:	14:20
zzbottom	<the user> is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.	14:21
zzbottom	Any workaround for this when sudoers is not possibel?	14:21
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obcecado	usermod -G wheel username	14:23
Hurrian	add a script in /etc/sudoers.d	14:23
zzbottom	I know the wheel from BSD - this will also work on maemo?	14:24
zzbottom	trying	14:24
zzbottom	...	14:24
Hurrian	it works if group wheel is OK'd in sudoers	14:25
zzbottom	funny... now I can't gain root on the devise itself... probably because I disabled permitrootlogin in sshd_config	14:26
zzbottom	)-:	14:26
zzbottom	it sucks	14:26
zzbottom	now, how can I edit sshd_config... only through R&D?	14:27
zzbottom	or any tricks?	14:27
Hurrian	meego => mount ubifs	14:29
zzbottom	Not running meego yet	14:31
obcecado	zzbottom: http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access	14:31
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zzbottom	rootsh is installed	14:32
zzbottom	maybe installing it again will fix sshd_config.	14:32
MohammadAG	sshd_config doesn't prevent root access on device	14:32
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DocScrutinizer	Hurrian: HRH_H_Crab: ( i'm guessing MAFW lets go of the pulse pipe) exactly. you need to set up a new pipe for each file to playback, and there's no proper way to sync them	14:33
HRH_H_Crab	im no coder but that sounds like the horrific reason i alluded to earlier.	14:34
zzbottom	Mohammad: It shouldn't, but is has been breaking my local gainroot...	14:34
zzbottom	changing sshd_config what the only thing I did.	14:34
Hurrian	docscrutinizer: and i guess putting two files together in the background and streaming it into the pulse pipe would eat memory?	14:36
Hurrian	something like cat	14:37
DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: refer to http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for sudoers	14:38
MohammadAG	MAFW doesn't handle pulse pipes, only gstreamer ones	14:39
MohammadAG	it constructs a new pipe for each file, which is kinda dumb	14:39
zzbottom	Strange - I does actually gain root on the console even though I get the reply "<the user> is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported."	14:39
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zzbottom	when typing "root" in a console on the device	14:40
zzbottom	hm....	14:40
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DocScrutinizer	Hurrian: who cares, but what will you do at end of 2nd file? ;-P	14:40
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DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: take care when messing with etc/sudoers. Real chance to go for a reflash	14:42
Hurrian	docscrutinizer: keep piling up files :P	14:42
Hurrian	and if gst is to blame, i think someone may have to do some backporting	14:42
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, that's what you'd like to do, feed audio framework with seamless data. Alas this friggin mafw doesn't work like that	14:43
DocScrutinizer	basically, in my book a mediaplayer has to do the audio streaming under close control itself, not offload to a stupid framework	14:44
DocScrutinizer	as soon as you got seamless, you run into next obstacle: crossfade	14:44
DocScrutinizer	mafw is crap basically	14:45
DocScrutinizer	it's nice for simple tasks, but completely inappropriate for a decent mediaplayer	14:45
Hurrian	too bad a lot of maemo apparently relies on it	14:45
DocScrutinizer	no problem, you don't HAVE TO use it	14:46
DocScrutinizer	you can open a simple audio device and do all the streaming locally, instead of offloading the whole task to mafw	14:47
DocScrutinizer	and I bet canola etc are doing exactly that	14:47
Hurrian	ah	14:47
zzbottom	Doc: think I will leave sudoers alone... don't really want to flash the device...	14:47
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DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: tweaking sudoers.d/* with an own new file, or even editing files there, is all way safer than messing with etc/sudoers	14:48
* MohammadAG wouldn't use Phonon over mafw		14:49
MohammadAG	just saying	14:49
DocScrutinizer	just don't forget to keep one root shell open for emergency recovery :-) then run update-sudoers and try if all your root and whatnot commands work as supposed	14:49
DocScrutinizer	phonon, BLAERGH!	14:50
DocScrutinizer	even more abstraction	14:50
Hurrian	MAG: as it should damn well be, maemo is GTK based, you'd like to keep the middleware centered around GNOME	14:50
Hurrian	i cringe every time a package pulls QT dependencies and fills rootfs	14:50
DocScrutinizer	wut, gnome???? another BLAERGH!	14:51
zzbottom	sshd_config changed back...	14:51
Hurrian	Doc: GNOME 2 was great	14:51
DocScrutinizer	~nuke g*	14:51
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at g* ... B☢☢M!		14:51
zzbottom	now I can SSH as root.	14:51
zzbottom	even though this is not what I want, I will stick with this...	14:51
DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: btw ssh and sudoers are unrelated	14:51
zzbottom	leaving it more unsecure...	14:51
zzbottom	)-:	14:51
MohammadAG	Hurrian, sorry, but I prefer Qt UIs over Gtk ones	14:52
zzbottom	Well, Nokia... nice try.	14:52
MohammadAG	at least when writing them, Gtk is way too much effort to work with	14:52
Hurrian	MAG: yes, Qt gives more bling without relying on hacky image engines	14:52
DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: huh?	14:52
MohammadAG	Hurrian, that would be QML	14:52
zzbottom	and.... now I do not get "<the user> is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported." when typing "root" on the device	14:52
thopiekar_	who of you told it would be easy to provide QT3 in fremantle?! :D	14:53
MohammadAG	thopiekar_, probably me :p	14:53
MohammadAG	though it'd be unthemed etc	14:53
zzbottom	I mean Nice try nokia to try to join the smartphone marked with Maemo/meego.	14:54
thopiekar_	I was trying to build it but it always fails.. today I found out that Qt4 provides Qt3 support ..	14:54
thopiekar_	but disabled on maemo5	14:54
DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: why did you create yet another user that's not "user"? I fail to get the point of that anyway	14:54
Hurrian	deffo cause problems when apps hardcode for the path /home/user	14:55
MohammadAG	thopiekar_, oh right, I forgot about that, it's just a compile flag	14:55
MohammadAG	--no-qt3-support	14:55
zzbottom	Would like to use my own login - which is not a default one	14:55
thopiekar_	yep, MohammadAG	14:55
MohammadAG	I hate apps that hardcode paths	14:56
Hurrian	zzbottom, they didnt even try to topple the iPhones and Androids	14:56
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zzbottom	and furthermore to enhance security.	14:56
MohammadAG	it's not that hard to use gettenv("$HOME")	14:56
thopiekar_	I plan to make a package now that would be able to be installed besides the original qt4 package and which will add qt3 support	14:56
zzbottom	everything default is bad.	14:56
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MohammadAG	thopiekar_, where would that install?	14:57
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DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: there's no enhanced security in a new user that has sole purpose to do "rot"	14:57
Hurrian	poor marketing, very low hq QC standards for a Nokia phone, standard Nokia UI patterns (INTERNET CONNECTIONS, ANYONE?)	14:57
DocScrutinizer	"root"	14:57
Shapeshifter	MohammadAG: $XDG_CONFIG_HOME >:(	14:57
MohammadAG	standard what?	14:58
zzbottom	Doc: ssh'ing is more secure if you can't login with default logins.	14:58
thopiekar_	I would need it on my N900 to have MythTV on it..	14:58
DocScrutinizer	look at http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools, fix sudo to ask for proper root password whenever somebody tries to "root". That's a bit of security	14:58
zzbottom	if you can login through root, you can just bruteforce it	14:58
DocScrutinizer	use proper ssh-keys to log in to user account - that's good for security	14:59
zzbottom	it is way hardware if you also have to guess the login name	14:59
thopiekar_	the -maemo5 confflag disables qt3-support -.-' what does the -maemo5 at all?	14:59
MohammadAG	thopiekar_, a lot	14:59
zzbottom	sorry ... it is way HARDER if you also have to guess the login name	14:59
* thopiekar_ will try to prepare the configure file to force qt3		15:00
psycho_oreos	or wouldn't it be better to have something like fail2ban for that matter?	15:00
DocScrutinizer	zzbottom: no, login in to an account that has no password-auth allowed is just identically hard no matter what's the account name: impossible without the ssh RSA-key	15:00
MohammadAG	thopiekar_, just remove --no-qt3-support from debian/rules	15:00
zzbottom	Doc.. but I am not that worried about login in from the device itself... I want to enhance the security from remote with SSH	15:01
thopiekar_	done that but the -maemo5 flag also disables it..	15:01
thopiekar_	MohammadAG: ^	15:01
DocScrutinizer	login from remote is at least as secure as login from device itself, quite obviously	15:01
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DocScrutinizer	so if you can't get root from user without proper root password, then same applies to a remote login to account user, after somebody has found a way to steal your RSA-key to even log in to sshd on account "user"	15:03
zzbottom	but on the device I gain root by just typing "root" when rootsh is installed (as in my case). Yes, that is a big security flaw.. but funny enough, I can live with it as I am always carrying my phone.	15:03
zzbottom	Through remote SSH, I want to disable all default logins, create my own login and be able to su from here.	15:04
DocScrutinizer	and if you would have bothered to actually look at what I gave URL to you...	15:04
DocScrutinizer	you would have seen how to fix this issue	15:04
zzbottom	yep, I look at your URL, but is only fix the local issue, right?	15:05
Choom	the notion that somebody would attempt a bruteforce login from the network is simply unconceivable to me unless pretty obvious passwords ar chosen	15:05
DocScrutinizer	it fixes "root" no matter how you issue the command	15:05
zzbottom	Myu concern is the remote SSH issue, where I want to disable default logins and login with my own login as well as being able to su	15:05
Choom	zzbottom: why's that an "issue"?	15:06
Choom	you are far more likely to have your password keylogged than the ssh daemon bruteforced	15:06
Shapeshifter	Choom: hunter2	15:06
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DocScrutinizer	Choom: I also fail to get it	15:07
zzbottom	The issue is that you can't add a newly created user to the sudoers as I understand (at least without getting into troubles)... that is an issue	15:07
DocScrutinizer	nevertheless there's definitely no problem in setting up this weird stuff	15:07
ruskie	you can't???	15:07
ruskie	since when?	15:07
ruskie	just need to do it properly	15:07
DocScrutinizer	exactly	15:07
Shapeshifter	ruskie: hey. did you ever do something new to your urxvt package? I'm still using yours from like a year ago.	15:08
zzbottom	Ok... then... how to do it proberly?	15:08
ruskie	Shapeshifter, nope	15:08
DocScrutinizer	though I really miss the purpose of the whole nonsense	15:08
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ruskie	zzbottom, see /etc/sudoers.d and /etc/sudoers	15:08
ruskie	it's explained how you need to add new entries to sudeoers	15:08
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Shapeshifter	ruskie: aww... but... perl support sob	15:09
DocScrutinizer	nah, see man sudo and man sudoers	15:09
zzbottom	Ok, looking back...	15:09
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ruskie	DocScrutinizer, iirc sudoers file explains that it is generated	15:10
DocScrutinizer	yes	15:10
DocScrutinizer	that's what update-sudoers is for	15:10
DocScrutinizer	as we got an obsolete sudo that doesn't know how to include sudoers.d/*	15:10
ruskie	the rest is just use the right directives in a sudoers.d/file	15:10
DocScrutinizer	yep	15:11
DocScrutinizer	and look at http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools for an example how to meddle with it	15:11
Shapeshifter	Mh. Can someone summarize for me what (tremendous) work is needed to run another distro on the n900?	15:11
zzbottom	Think I am beginning to get the idea of sudoers.d	15:11
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DocScrutinizer	the directives in etc/sudoers and etc/sudoers.d/* are identical in syntax and semantics	15:13
DocScrutinizer	user isn't supposed to mess with /etc/sudoers	15:13
DocScrutinizer	as it gets generated when running update-sudoers script	15:14
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zzbottom	ok...	15:17
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zzbottom	in sudoers.d, I got a file named "01sudo". Can I simply just edit this to reflect "user all = passwd: /usr/sbin/gainroot"	15:21
zzbottom	in order to get prompted for pw on the device when rooting?	15:21
zzbottom	(Now I am mixing things, I know)	15:21
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zzbottom	Thanks DocScrutinizer - been reading your guideline and putting them together. It does seem that I am able to do what I want to accomplish...	15:31
zzbottom	(the weird stuff) (-;	15:32
DocScrutinizer	yw	15:33
zzbottom	bye	15:33
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voltagex	can anyone see a problem with the following dbus calls? http://pastebin.com/ayAKZVHa (N900)	15:40
voltagex	error is included in the pastebin.	15:43
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MohammadAG	running it as root	16:06
MohammadAG	?	16:06
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MoonTiger	hey guys :)	18:32
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MoonTiger	if i stick to glib and pure c functions am i good to go for maemo?	18:32
SpeedEvil	yes - uif you want a command line app	18:33
MoonTiger	well i will add the gui layer after words	18:34
MoonTiger	afterwards	18:34
MoonTiger	sorry brain went elsewhere	18:34
MoonTiger	gf said something to me	18:34
MoonTiger	:)	18:34
SpeedEvil	QML is C++ I think - though I've not doe it	18:35
MoonTiger	yah i want to stick with gtk	18:35
MoonTiger	for the desktop and maemo	18:35
SpeedEvil	gtk works	18:35
MoonTiger	:)	18:37
MoonTiger	using plain c is a real throwback to days gone by	18:37
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* SpeedEvil finally starts coding a benchmarker for the webproxy idea using old data.		19:45
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ludens	does anyone know how to make links in terminal open with firefox?	20:03
ludens	i use browser switchboard, but when i click links, nothing happens	20:03
ludens	if i run 'browser' in a terminal, firefox opens	20:03
ludens	known problem or just me?	20:03
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MohammadAG	<SpeedEvil> QML is C++ I think - though I've not doe it	20:33
MohammadAG	no, C++ is compiled, QML is interpreted	20:33
MohammadAG	The syntax is close to JS	20:33
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GAN900	Jaffa, I don't buy it.	20:57
fish_sticks	I'm planning on getting the accelerometer readings from the N900 and send it to an opengl application to plot stuff.But the readings seems weird.Moving from position to position,there's a huge change in the values.	20:57
GAN900	W	20:57
fish_sticks	will I be able to use it?or will accuracy be a problem?	20:57
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petteri	worked fine for me. I used the example on maemo wiki	20:58
petteri	reading the values from /proc	20:58
fish_sticks	petteri: I did the same thing	20:58
fish_sticks	but a small change gives me completely different values	20:58
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petteri	fish_sticks: maybe your n900 is on some strange state, you might want to reboot and try again	20:59
fish_sticks	did that,no difference	20:59
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fish_sticks	petteri: all I'm asking is will that be accurate enough to plot something on opengl?	21:01
fish_sticks	or will I have say a circle being plotted randomly every second	21:01
petteri	definitely accurate enough	21:02
SpeedEvil	fish_sticks: What are you trying to do.	21:02
fish_sticks	thanks and its better I do it via usb right?	21:02
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: trying to plot something using the accelerometer co-ordinates	21:02
SpeedEvil	The accellerometer almost can't be used for integratingchanges in position, it's not possible generally.	21:02
fish_sticks	integrating changes?didnt get you	21:03
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SpeedEvil	What are you trying to do with the data you get drom the accellerometer.	21:03
petteri	this one I used: http://wiki.maemo.org/Accelerometers#Smoothed_C_interface and got working values	21:03
SpeedEvil	For working out which direction 'down' is - it works.	21:04
fish_sticks	sending that data via a socket	21:04
SpeedEvil	For much more than that - it's complex.	21:04
fish_sticks	petteri: thanks	21:04
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: you mean to tell me I wont be able to use it?	21:04
SpeedEvil	What are you trying to do with the data - not how are you reading it.	21:05
fish_sticks	I'll take that an draw say a circle using opengl	21:05
SpeedEvil	how?	21:05
SpeedEvil	Why?	21:05
fish_sticks	planning on implementing say a squash game	21:05
fish_sticks	so that the bat moves as I move the N900	21:06
fish_sticks	something like that	21:06
Choom	reading my accelerometer several times, I get these: -36 -18 -936, -18 -36 -936, -36 -36 -936, -18 -36 -936, -36 -18 -954	21:06
Choom	I don't know where my phone is right now, but the values are pretty stable to me	21:06
fish_sticks	Choom: its not stablity that I want,but fluidity	21:06
SpeedEvil	It is poor to very poor at determining position. This is because you need to integrate the already noisy accellerations, and try to work out where the normally dominant 'down vector' is.	21:07
fish_sticks	continuous precise variations	21:07
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: okay	21:07
SpeedEvil	Note also that all those readings are divisible by 18	21:07
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: didnt get you	21:07
SpeedEvil	fish_sticks: Do you understand vectors?	21:07
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: kindof	21:08
SpeedEvil	The accellerometer outputs a fairly inaccurate vector, which measures the accelleration it feels, and its current direction.	21:08
SpeedEvil	This is however dependant on the orientation of the phone.	21:08
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: you mean to tell me it will not tell me the current position?	21:09
SpeedEvil	An accellerometer can fundamentally never tell you a position.	21:09
SpeedEvil	It measures accelleration.	21:09
Choom	it doesn't tell you a position, it tells you acceleration	21:09
fish_sticks	hmm	21:09
fish_sticks	will a gyro help?	21:09
SpeedEvil	You need to integrate accelleration to get to velocity, then integrate velocity to get to position.	21:09
Choom	you need to infer position from the acceleration vector, and ignore the acceleration of gravity	21:10
SpeedEvil	And a gyro removes some of the error terms, but not all.	21:10
fish_sticks	got it	21:10
SpeedEvil	A gyro makes it easier to work out where 'down' really is - and to subtract this vector from your measured accelleration.	21:10
SpeedEvil	But you're still faced with the noise of the accellerometer.	21:10
fish_sticks	hmm	21:10
fish_sticks	so I'll have to take the values,integrate it to get the position huh?	21:11
fish_sticks	but then again,noise is a problem	21:11
SpeedEvil	The granularity is 18 milligee. This is an accelleration of 9.8mm/s^2. After 10 seconds, the velocity is uncertain by 9.8cm/s. After 100 seconds - 1m/s.	21:11
fish_sticks	hmm	21:12
GAN900	Jaffa, given the WeAreMeeGo revive and whatnot.	21:12
DocScrutinizer	9.8m/s^2	21:12
DocScrutinizer	not mm	21:12
SpeedEvil	err - no	21:12
fish_sticks	SpeedEvil: I know its out of scope,but is there another way to do it?	21:12
SpeedEvil	I screwed up comprehensively.	21:12
SpeedEvil	I meant 9.8mm/s, but left off the factor of 18	21:12
SpeedEvil	So the above is out by a factor of 18	21:13
fish_sticks	k	21:13
SpeedEvil	fish_sticks: you can use the accellerometer basically as a 'joystick'	21:13
SpeedEvil	fish_sticks: this works fairly well.	21:13
fish_sticks	hmm k	21:14
SpeedEvil	Imagine that there is a stick poking out of the screen, always vertical.	21:14
fish_sticks	so just x and y?	21:14
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SpeedEvil	X,Y,Z can be mapped onto two angles of the 'stick' - if you ignore the magnitude of the accelleration.	21:15
fish_sticks	k	21:15
SpeedEvil	You may or may not find http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Technical:Accelerometer_Fundamentals - which I wrote earlier - of use.	21:17
fish_sticks	will check it out	21:17
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Jaffa	GAN900: Indeed, I'm just trying to manage expectations. Too much TMO reading last week ;-)	21:25
Jaffa	GAN900: Sounds like something which might be Section=front tonight, but no idea what the best thing(s) to link to is/are	21:26
GAN900	Hehe	21:30
GAN900	Yeah, I can rumor mongor	21:30
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mikhas	Jaffa, still ... a thread with nearly 6k posts ...	21:34
mikhas	who said that Maemo is dead? ;-)	21:34
mikhas	this thread probably has more posts than whole of MeeGo forums :-D	21:35
GAN900	It's got a device	21:35
GAN900	Go figure	21:35
DocScrutinizer	haha	21:35
* DocScrutinizer ponders of any metric which could compare tmo to meego forum		21:36
DocScrutinizer	would probably need that legendary crap filter	21:36
mikhas	GAN900, :-)	21:37
SpeedEvil	Does anyone happen to know what gzips maximum compression 'window' is with -9?	21:38
mikhas	ROFL @ the blog countdown: http://www.nokiablog.ch/	21:39
DocScrutinizer	err, I did, but forgot :-S	21:39
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: I think I#ve seen it once, in a reasoning about gzip's ram fotprint and speed	21:40
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SpeedEvil	K. Trying stupid metrics at the moment.	21:41
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SpeedEvil	'What is the increase in filesize of all of the text/* files from this website, in chronological order that you have ever downloaded gzipped, if you add the latest file'	21:42
SpeedEvil	For example	21:42
DocScrutinizer	that's not only about window size but also about dict	21:44
SpeedEvil	I know.	21:44
DocScrutinizer	and if the dict gets reused on new files	21:44
SpeedEvil	That's what I'm trying to avoid.	21:44
DocScrutinizer	err, avoid?	21:45
SpeedEvil	reusing the 'dictionary'	21:45
DocScrutinizer	the first gzip, then tar	21:45
DocScrutinizer	then*	21:45
SpeedEvil	I want to see how to best apply compression with a dictionary comprising the whole of the last 256M or whatever files you've downloaded.	21:45
DocScrutinizer	otherwise gzip will use one dict for whole tar'ed set of files	21:46
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DocScrutinizer	gzip always works on one file only, and uses dict for the whole file	21:47
SpeedEvil	I'm not sure that's true - I seem to recall the dictionary can get at least partially purged - though I've forgotten the details.	21:47
DocScrutinizer	sure, it adapts	21:48
DocScrutinizer	which makes sense	21:48
DocScrutinizer	usually	21:48
DocScrutinizer	anyway NB gzip seems pipe safe	21:49
DocScrutinizer	so it can't do optimum	21:49
DocScrutinizer	for ptimum you'd need a two-pass compression	21:49
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	21:50
DocScrutinizer	and that's the reason why the dict must change during compression	21:50
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DocScrutinizer	and due to ram limitations dict can't grow infinitely	21:51
SpeedEvil	FIrst pass test results. 12M uncompressed text in 325 files. gzipping them individually 2.5M. gzipping them in chronological order - 2.4M. bzip2 - 1.3M	21:51
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DocScrutinizer	what's "chronological order"? you concatenated them?	21:53
SpeedEvil	Concatenated in the order they were downloaded.	21:53
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	21:53
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DocScrutinizer	amazing	21:53
DocScrutinizer	which factor?	21:53
SpeedEvil	factor?	21:53
DocScrutinizer	--best ?	21:53
DocScrutinizer	-9	21:54
SpeedEvil	-9	21:54
DocScrutinizer	even more amazing	21:54
DocScrutinizer	I'd have expected gzip to boost performance way more on longer files	21:54
DocScrutinizer	seems dict and window are ridiculously small	21:55
RST38h	Moo all	21:55
DocScrutinizer	remoo	21:55
SpeedEvil	yes - it's possible that's not the best order	21:55
RST38h	Any news while I have been away?	21:55
DocScrutinizer	nah	21:55
DocScrutinizer	some RM-680 powertop-alike screendump	21:56
DocScrutinizer	we see it has 512MB and 1GHz	21:56
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RST38h	Taaasty	21:57
DocScrutinizer	and obviously been configured to use same amount of swap	21:57
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DocScrutinizer	you also could read out some of the possible speedsteps of that CPU, but I guess that's particularly boring	21:58
Juozapas	hi	21:58
Juozapas	how to play mov file on maemo?	21:58
SpeedEvil	Sorting by ebay site - 1.0M - I need to work out how to sort by URL.	21:58
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: bored? ;-D	21:59
DocScrutinizer	or are you trying to find a metrics for me, to compare net info in tmo vs meego forum?	22:00
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DocScrutinizer	X-D	22:00
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: It's a log from a program called wwwoffled which is a web proxy - directly accessing the URL is not quite trivial. These are random browsing logs from a period in 2009.	22:00
DocScrutinizer	sure	22:01
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DocScrutinizer	I miss the general purpose	22:01
SpeedEvil	I'm trying to make metrics for a compressing web proxy. So I can inspire someone to actually write teh thing.	22:01
SpeedEvil	To save on everyones bandwidth.	22:01
* DocScrutinizer idly ponders about his dupfile killer app		22:02
DocScrutinizer	AAAHHH now!	22:02
SpeedEvil	For example - nice graphs saying 'with a cache size of 130M, with the example dataset, the average reduction over time is:	22:02
DocScrutinizer	well, there's a thing called compressed html iirc	22:03
SpeedEvil	Rather than handwavey postulation on no data.	22:03
SpeedEvil	yes - it's not quite the same.	22:03
SpeedEvil	And would give similar results to gzipped html	22:03
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SpeedEvil	http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:WebProxy - I suspect I've posted before.	22:03
SpeedEvil	The key is diffing against the best matching page the client has downloaded in the last 250M (or whatever) - not simply compressing.	22:04
DocScrutinizer	indeed	22:04
DocScrutinizer	sound rationale	22:04
DocScrutinizer	though building a dict based on that 250MB would probably work even better	22:05
SpeedEvil	Sometimes, yes.	22:05
DocScrutinizer	given it's a comprehensive dict	22:06
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DocScrutinizer	so gzip is out	22:06
SpeedEvil	At some point, you have to give up and accept the fact that you're not going to be able to do it properly due to serverside CPU limits.	22:06
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	22:07
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DocScrutinizer	I think the dict of gzip is using some LRU algo to purge tuples	22:07
DocScrutinizer	arr are these tuples at all?	22:08
DocScrutinizer	prolly	22:08
DocScrutinizer	the problem is you need to stay in sync, and recover from datastream dropouts	22:09
MohammadAG	~seen Venemo	22:09
infobot	venemo <~Timur@fedora/Venemo> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 3d 21h 32m 34s ago, saying: 'user0, yeah, I did need to get my device to R&D mode when I used the rescue initrd'.	22:09
DocScrutinizer	even md5 sum over a 250MB cache are too heavy I guess, on mobile	22:10
SpeedEvil	The mobile does nothing.	22:10
SpeedEvil	Oh - right	22:10
SpeedEvil	And yes - the mobile only changes the cache based on a complete transaction that it has notified the server of.	22:10
SpeedEvil	Or something.	22:11
DocScrutinizer	hmm, that's possible but still icky and tricky	22:11
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DocScrutinizer	what if your notifications doesn't make it thru to server? what if the ACK gets lost?	22:12
SpeedEvil	'last seen update' sent with next request	22:12
DocScrutinizer	doesn't help mobile out, as you don't want to keep several transactions open to rollback them, at mobile	22:13
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DocScrutinizer	yes, you can resend transaction codes to make sure server is in sync	22:13
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SpeedEvil	You only commit finished transactions, and then notify the server of your state on next request - server has to rollback	22:14
DocScrutinizer	hmm, a very very complicated protocol	22:15
SpeedEvil	yes - it's going to be moderately complex.	22:15
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DocScrutinizer	I wonder if the protocol overhead will eat up the net savings on compression	22:15
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SpeedEvil	Shouldn't. That's not the fun part though.	22:16
SpeedEvil	Mobile says 'send me ebay.com'.	22:16
SpeedEvil	and 'I want compressed pictures and stuff'	22:16
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SpeedEvil	Server then diffs ebay.com with the cache, and then does the same with all of the files that the mobile is going to request shortly as they are new files it hasn't seen, and sends it in one lump.	22:17
SpeedEvil	cookies are annoyin	22:17
DocScrutinizer	LOL	22:18
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DocScrutinizer	probably any embedded scripts also are annoying	22:18
SpeedEvil	The evil nasty hack version might run a similar browser as the client on the server over the request. That's probably going too far though.	22:20
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sirdancealot	so, any demo of the hoped-for device would still mean a long wait time b4 it would be available for the masses, is that right?	22:35
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sirdancealot	so i should still follow thru with my n900 order :)	22:36
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Jaffa	sirdancealot: I'd wait until Tuesday at least. If it is what we hope, there might be a glut of N900s on ebay ;-)	22:39
DocScrutinizer	indeed	22:39
sirdancealot	ic. thanks Jaffa	22:40
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SpeedEvil	What's the source of Thursday?	22:40
Jaffa	sirdancealot: What if (and this'd be crazy time), Nokia said on Tuesday "we'll sell these for $199 to anyone with a maemo.org or meego.com account"	22:40
Jaffa	SpeedEvil: Thursday?	22:41
SpeedEvil	err	22:41
DocScrutinizer	though... If I were to get me a N9 (which I'm definitely not ;-P), I'd wait to ebay my N900 until I hold the new device in my greedy hands	22:41
SpeedEvil	tuesday	22:41
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: Indeed	22:41
MohammadAG	Nokia Connections	22:41
GAN900	Jaffa, I'll eat my shirt.	22:41
Jaffa	SpeedEvil: http://www.itwire.com/your-it-news/mobility/47833-nokias-sneak-peek-of-new-market-disputing-device-coming-june-21 and http://twitter.com/#!/WeAreMeego/status/82254724727975936 and http://www.nokiaconnection.net/	22:41
MohammadAG	some market disrupting device	22:41
sirdancealot	Jaffa, then i should get one of those accounts quick :)	22:41
SpeedEvil	Jaffa: Ah	22:42
SpeedEvil	Jaffa: Thanks	22:42
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: (we sell to maemo.org account) I'd say "Nokia you're nuts, I ask for device price getting calculated by the formula (500 - <maemo-karma>)	22:43
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: Genius. So they give me a device and a load of cash? Great :-)	22:44
DocScrutinizer	me too ;-P	22:44
DocScrutinizer	at least most of the trolls wouldn't get a subsidized device	22:44
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Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: Aye. Most of the trolls only have talk.maemo.org accounts, so let's limit it to garage.maemo.org accounts (i.e. the Midguard DB)	22:45
DocScrutinizer	and when I think about it, I'd prefer NOBODY gets a subsidized device, when the alternative is trolls getting them way too cheap	22:45
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: I'd certainly prefer targetted giveaways to general subsidisation (if it included trolls)	22:45
Jaffa	Anyway, bed time	22:46
SpeedEvil	Night!	22:46
DocScrutinizer	cya Jaffa	22:46
sirdancealot	night	22:46
DocScrutinizer	garage account sounds fair	22:46
DocScrutinizer	though iirc they did the min-karma-needed thing before	22:47
DocScrutinizer	wich seems a more general approach	22:47
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DocScrutinizer	I'd think they should have had a device queue since long	22:48
DocScrutinizer	they are missing out on feedback of a small crowd of smart knowledgeable people	22:49
DocScrutinizer	evidently their internal evaluation and tester process didn't always perform up to expectations	22:50
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MohammadAG	anyone know how electric guitars work?	22:51
DocScrutinizer	but then this once more would need a mindset based on cooperation and trust into FOSS community, rather than "serving them"	22:51
GAN900	Fields	22:51
MohammadAG	wondering if something like a pocket amp app would be doable	22:51
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: huh?	22:52
DocScrutinizer	electromagnetism?	22:52
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: you ask if the headset/AV mic input is capable of dealing with signals from an E-guitar pickup? short answer: No	22:53
MohammadAG	no, I	22:54
MohammadAG	fucking hildon taking focus	22:54
MohammadAG	I'm asking how electric guitars send signals	22:54
MohammadAG	or what type of signals those are	22:54
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DocScrutinizer	low voltage high impedance electrical waves in a cable ;-)	22:55
DocScrutinizer	in a way similar to a classical passive microphone, though still sufficiently different so you can't use a mic input for E-guitar	22:56
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DocScrutinizer	which probably each band can tell you - you can't use the vocals amp for guitar	22:57
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DocScrutinizer	at least that's what I've been told - I'm no musician	22:57
MohammadAG	you're an engineer, you probably know more about this :P	22:58
DocScrutinizer	I think impedance is sufficiently different so this usually doesn't pan out	22:58
DocScrutinizer	some numbers from my arse: guitar:100k-Ohm, mic:300Ohm	22:59
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DocScrutinizer	this time by rear might not have as good numbers as it usually does	23:00
DocScrutinizer	short: I may be wrong here	23:01
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GAN900	Useless.	23:02
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_trine	dont electric guitars have a pickup to catch the string vibrations	23:08
_trine	nothing to do with impedance	23:08
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DocScrutinizer	GAN900: huh?	23:10
DocScrutinizer	_trine: what do you think is a pickup?	23:10
DocScrutinizer	what do you think is the name of it'S electrical properties?	23:11
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_(music_technology)#Pickup_sound	23:11
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, your ass.	23:11
_trine	the pickups output could be any impedance	23:11
_trine	you wanted it to be	23:12
DocScrutinizer	Amp input expected to be ~1M Ohm for guitar amps, while voltage can be significantly higer than with mics	23:12
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: My ass been excellent as usual	23:12
MoonTiger	so im writing an identica client ... wondered what select * from itemsres would be importantfeatu	23:13
MoonTiger	wow	23:13
MoonTiger	love the random paste there	23:13
MoonTiger	sorry	23:13
MoonTiger	let me try that again	23:13
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MoonTiger	im writing an identica client and wondered what features you think important	23:13
MoonTiger	:)	23:13
_trine	the required impedance would only be the impedance which would match the amplifier you wanted to use so you would get maximum power transfer	23:13
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DocScrutinizer	_trine: orly. OK, I guess my EE is worth a crap then	23:14
_trine	is orly a word	23:15
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DocScrutinizer	in my experience the amp get built to specs of picup, not vice versa	23:15
_trine	well that is irrelevant	23:16
DocScrutinizer	indeed, which part of your explanation isn't - for mohamnmad's problem?	23:16
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_trine	only that they match is relevant to a point however for power you would choose a lower impedance	23:17
DocScrutinizer	sure, yes. no doubt	23:17
ShadowJK	_trine, Orly is the name of a white owl	23:18
_trine	maximum power transfer occurs when the impedance is matched	23:18
DocScrutinizer	I don't choose anything, I have to choose a pickup that sounds nice, or even a guitar that sounds nice and comes with a pickup that has a certain impedance	23:18
DocScrutinizer	_trine: and cake is best when baked	23:18
_trine	I have no idea what the characteristic impedance is of a guitar pickup	23:19
_trine	is	23:19
DocScrutinizer	aah, good. Now we got something to discuss	23:19
_trine	but whatever it is it would need to match the amplifier	23:20
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_trine	when I was a lad	23:20
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DocScrutinizer	well, isn't that what I said? Modulo you don't 'match' impedance for audio frequency, rather you make sure input impedance of amp >> source impedance	23:21
_trine	we could buy head phones which were 20000 ohms	23:21
_trine	now they are 4 and 8 ohms	23:21
DocScrutinizer	where >> usually means factor 10 at least	23:22
* _trine opens a bottle of white wine and slurps		23:22
DocScrutinizer	the impedance matching is relevant for RF	23:23
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DocScrutinizer	to get a good SWR	23:23
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_trine	stand wave ratio does not make a lot of difference	23:23
_trine	standing	23:23
_trine	no power is lost	23:24
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DocScrutinizer	for LF you want a most neutral transmission which is more like probing than like power transmission, which means the probe (=amp) has to have an impedance high enough to not change the properties of device under test (guitar)	23:24
DocScrutinizer	so while pickups are typically 100kR, the amp has in imput impedance of 1MR or higher	23:26
_trine	not necessarily	23:26
DocScrutinizer	and the voltage is really high with ~1V RMS	23:27
DocScrutinizer	_trine: sorrry, I start to get bored and call "Off Topic"	23:27
_trine	good idea	23:27
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_trine	I still have not got pyrit yet :(	23:29
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: anyway, you can't possibly connect an E-guitar to N900	23:29
sirdancealot	the strings are supposed to be slightly magnetic	23:29
sirdancealot	could n900 pick the vibrations up?	23:30
DocScrutinizer	no	23:30
DocScrutinizer	no sensor for that	23:30
DocScrutinizer	you could try optical pickup, but the video cam is way too slow for that	23:31
_trine	could you not arrange to vibrate the touch screen	23:31
DocScrutinizer	as is proxy sensor, and ALS	23:31
DocScrutinizer	hey, how's about using the best builtin sensor we got for that: the microphone ;-P	23:32
DocScrutinizer	really, sounds like Friday afternoon	23:33
_trine	we're only idly chatting ,,, chewing the cud	23:34
DocScrutinizer	we could try to exploit FMTX and FMRX to build a doppler radar X-P	23:34
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* DocScrutinizer wonders idly if he enjoyed more the rant about N9 quad core CPU, than discussing EE basics and Oz pickups		23:37
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MohammadAG	<DocScrutinizer> MohammadAG: anyway, you can't possibly connect an E-guitar to N900 damn, I was expecting to have some fun with that	23:52
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: you at very least would need some simple transformer, or better a buffer amp powered by micbias	23:53
DocScrutinizer	I could provide schematics if you're inclined :-)	23:54
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, well I was actually expecting mic input to work fine, but oh well :p	23:54
DocScrutinizer	actually a FET amp could work fine for this usecase	23:56
DocScrutinizer	woukd probably consist of <10 components	23:56
DocScrutinizer	I'd even manage to build that thing into the 6.3mm female connector of the needed adapter	23:58
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DocScrutinizer	that's however EE weekend fancy	23:59
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