IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-05-19

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SpeedEvilMaemo is composed of open source, and binary components.00:02
SpeedEvilThe opensource bits cannot work without the closed source parts, which are only designed and licenced to run on teh n90000:03
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zsoltthank you00:05
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MacerSpeedEvil: well maybe someone should fix mail for exchange :)00:07
Macerso the damn calendars work with google00:07
SerpherCan any program made to run on Linux run on maemo?00:08
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SerpherAlso can Android apps run on Maemo? I saw Angry Birds on one.00:08
lcukangry birds is available on maemo natively00:08
lcukSerpher, depends on the libraries required00:09
SerpherCouldn't I just intstall those libraries?00:09
lcukand how much faff you want, re porting and screenresolution00:09
lcukand whether the app was designed for .... blah blah00:09
SerpherOk, would I be able to install Android on an N900 and still have it fully functional?00:09
lcukSerpher, if the library has not been added to repositories already, someone will have to do it00:10
lcukwhat is android?00:10
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Serpherlcuk: Couldn't I just get the source code and compile it on the tablet? Also Android the phone OS made by Google.00:10
SerpherIt uses Linux just with modified "clean" headers.00:10
lcukSerpher, depends what you mean by "just", you can certainly download minimal required sdk and build stuff00:11
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lcukbut time and disk space are the normal limitations, along with non standard busybox tooling00:11
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SerpherWhat do you mean by "busybox tooling"?00:13
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lcukSerpher, not standard gnu tools, so things which normal builds require (like tar for instance) use the slightly modified versions00:14
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lcukinstalling the gnu tools themselves have a bit of an issue too00:15
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SerpherCouldn't I just work around that by installing those variations of the tools?00:15
lcukbut the maemo boot scripts use the variations..00:15
lcukso, you either have standard tools and potential bootup issues, or non standard tools and sdk build issues00:16
BCMMok, so I think my N900 USB port has gone now00:16
BCMMwhat can I do? does nokia still repair these? how much does it cost? (UK)00:16
lcukBCMM, is it still physically connected?00:16
Serpherlcuk: Guess I'll just have to play around with it when I get my N900.00:16
BCMMlcuk: yes, but it looks a little twisted00:17
SpeedEvilBCMM: Free warranty for 2 years00:17
lcukBCMM, I did mine with a little fold of card00:17
lcukit pushed the usb connector back onto the board00:17
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BCMMi mean, it appears slightly rotated relative to the phone's case00:17
BCMMalso, no data or power seems to go through00:17
BCMMlcuk: did what? jammed it back in to position?00:18
BCMMSpeedEvil: what does warranty mean? new/fixed n900, or new phone that isn't an n900?00:18
SpeedEvilnew fixed00:18
lcukyes, it was a bit finnicky, so I did that00:18
SpeedEvilSpare parts are still available00:18
BCMMpretty sure it's been less than 2 years00:18
SpeedEvilIt has.00:19
BCMMstill hasn't been out two years, has it?00:19
BCMMmy thinking was that the 18mo contract i had when i got it is still going00:19
BCMMso what? i ring up nokia and i can get them to fix it for me?00:19
SpeedEvilAs I understand it, yes.00:20
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BCMManyone here done this, and happen to know which bit of nokia i should call?00:20
BCMMoh, this warranty, is it possible to void it from the software side?00:21
BCMM(without overclocking)00:21
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SpeedEvilI doubt it in practice.00:21
SpeedEvilIn theory, you can intentuionally destroy the phone00:22
SpeedEvilSetting voltage regulators out of spec00:22
BCMMi guess i'm just used to stupid rules00:22
SpeedEvilbackup first of course00:22
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BCMMfrom being a linux user and trying to hide this from laptop vendors00:22
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BCMMyeah, i know i need to backup00:23
BCMMsince they might replace the whole unit or something00:23
BCMMHP was really cool about this, actually. they let me keep the laptop's HDs when i sent it in00:23
BCMMeven seemed pleased i was reducing their shipping weight that way00:23
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BCMMbut i know that some laptop vendors will try and void it for installing a different OS on, so i guess being used to that made me paranoid that custom kernels and so on would be a problem00:24
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SpeedEvilSpeaking personally, I'd wipe it and flash it.00:25
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BCMMSpeedEvil: ha ha.00:26
BCMMflashing is the only reason i care00:26
BCMMi mean, you can get external battery chargers, and i very seldom use mass storage mode anyway00:26
BCMMsftp FTW; cables are fiddly00:27
BCMMbut i thouroughly intend to brick this device many more times in the future00:27
BCMMhaving to not risk a reflash would be boring00:27
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SerpherCan anybody tell my why Maemo > Android or Android > Maemo? I'm split on what I should get. I'm scared I won't get the app selection Android has.00:29
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Sc0rpiusif you want tons of applications get Android00:32
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Sc0rpiusif you want a very powerful phone with real multitasking and don't bother to code your own software, then get Maemo or wait a little longer to get a Meego phone00:32
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BCMMSerpher: maemo is a proper linux distro00:34
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BCMMit has it's idiosyncracies, but it has glibc, xorg, and so on00:35
BCMMyou can basically recompile a linux application for ARM and run it on maemo00:35
BCMM(though obviously the UI could usually use a few tweaks, like bigger buttons)00:35
SerpherI want maemo because I can do a lot with Linux, but I want my smartphone to feel like a proper smartphone like Android/iOS00:36
BCMMwell, what makes it a "proper" one?00:36
BCMMi may not have used android/iOS enough to understand this00:37
BCMMthe n900 mostly feels like a proper laptop to me00:37
SerpherI'm scared it'll be much like Linux is on the Desktop xD. Yes, it's terrific and makes sense but you miss out on a lot like gaming and high-quality apps.00:37
BCMMthere is a much smaller selection of applications, yes00:37
BCMMthough i wouldn't call android's nor apple's app stores a haven of high-quality apps00:38
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SerpherI guess I'll have a look around OVI00:39
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BCMMi wouldn't bother with ovi, tbh00:39
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BCMMwell, most of hte stuff i use isn't from there, anyway00:39
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BCMMthe open-source stuff is largely in maemo extras00:39
BCMMovi store is the "app store"00:40
BCMMit's where you get angry birds and gimicky things00:40
BCMMthere may even be a fart app, dunno00:40
BCMMhere's an example of why i find the proper smartphone OSs somewhat amusing:00:40
BCMMsaw people on slashdot arguing about the best SSH clients for iOS and android00:41
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BCMMactually, where would one go to get an overview of the most popular maemo extras apps?00:42
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MohammadAG ? :P00:43
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BCMMMohammadAG: was that an answer to me?00:45
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BCMMhmm, it's a page saying that most popular applications are ones MohammadAG was involved with...00:46
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SerpherI think I'll probably end up going with the Maemo. I like the layout too much plus there's always the bonus of being able to be a pretentious neckbeard xD00:48
BCMMi'm really curious as to what a proper smartphone is supposed to be like00:48
BCMMi mean, this is very much like using a desktop, since it's just X but with a WM that's suited to a small screen00:48
kerioBCMM: it needs a nuclear battery, for one thing00:48
BCMMkerio: no, i want to carry it in my pocket :(00:49
SpeedEvilI have a nuclear fission device in my pocket.00:49
SerpherBCMM: I'll explain when I get back from dinner00:49
SpeedEvilIt glows green.00:49
BCMMi mean, you do stuff with some application, alt-tab to some other application, close them when you're finished with them00:49
SpeedEvil(alas with only around 100nW of power.)00:50
kerioSpeedEvil: is it a glowing keychain?00:50
BCMMyes, it gets slow if you have to many open. desktops demonstrate that adults can deal with this and close something00:50
infobotBCMM meant: yes, it gets slow if you have too many open. desktops demonstrate that adults can deal with this and close something00:50
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BCMMSpeedEvil: tritium?00:50
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SpeedEvilI'd not be so happy to have most other glowing isotopes in my pocket.00:51
SpeedEvilTritium is basically completley safe as long as you don't crack the container.00:51
BCMMyeah, really really efficient transformation of mass into light00:51
BCMMand no gamma produced00:51
SpeedEvilAnd if you do that, you need to crack it, while inhaling over a naked flame.00:51
SpeedEvilAnd do about 10 of those, and you've hit the maximum dose00:52
BCMMin general, only gamma is really dangerous, unless you somehow get it inside you00:52
BCMMat which point gamma is the least of your worries00:52
SpeedEvilThere exist near-UV gammas.00:52
BCMMSpeedEvil: nice use of "do". somehow brings drugs to mind and now i can see somebody trying to snort tritium keychains00:52
SpeedEvilWell - one.00:52
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BCMMdamnit, why does my USB port have to go when the battery is almost flat?00:54
BCMMand i'm going to have to send it for repair when i want to be testing stuff on it00:54
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BCMManyone in the UK sent their phone to Nokia for repair? how long does it tend to take?00:57
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BCMMoh wow01:04
BCMMjust realised the implications of no USB01:04
BCMMbefore i send this to nokia, i need to do backups, over wlan, with no change to recharge...01:05
BCMMi'd better get started/01:05
kerioBCMM: buy an external battery charger01:06
BCMMno, because as soon as shops open tomorrow, i'm sending the poor thing off to Nokia Care01:07
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SpeedEvilGot enough backups?01:09
SpeedEvilDeleted the crocodile porn?01:09
BCMMyou know, that's weirdly similar to a conversation i was having a few hours ago.01:10
BCMMi pretty much do have backups01:11
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BCMMannoyingly, the recent changes i care about are photos i've taken lately01:11
BCMMSpeedEvil: Raw DNGs. 10MB each.01:11
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BCMMand i've been playing with HDR, so it's often 30 or 40 megabytes per shot...01:17
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wblazeBCMM: N900 can manage multi-exposure HDR?  Or pseudo-hdr from a single shot?01:18
BCMMwblaze: well, it has a camera, and is programmable01:19
BCMMso exposure bracketing is inevitably possible01:19
BCMMi do it with fcamera01:19
wblazeseems a bit silly, but fun things often are01:19
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BCMMyeah, i know it's a bit of a cliche01:19
BCMMbut it's kind of fun01:20
BCMMfcamera is pretty cool01:20
BCMMit usually achieves all three exposures in in the same second01:20
BCMMthe fcam API is even cooler01:20
wblazeTo make this conversation a bit funnier, I was just looking into buying a N900 so I figured I'd hang out in here for a bit and see what peoples' thoughts were01:21
wblazethat in itself pretty much made up my mind to go for it.01:21
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SpeedEvilI'd hold off for a few days01:23
SpeedEvilIt's possible that the meego device may be announced soon.01:23
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wblazeThe new device is unlikely to cost <$300CAD unlocked without a contract01:24
SpeedEvilFair point.01:24
wblazeand with my luck, it'll only have a soft-keyboard01:24
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wblazeI've stuck with my Blackberry 9700 far too long for that single feature, and I'm rather tired of being stuck with RIM's firmware.01:25
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BCMMwblaze: it's a lot of fun for photography01:30
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BCMMthere is this fcam API, which basically gives complete control over the camera functions01:31
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wblazeI was actually just reading up on the featureset, it's rather nice01:32
BCMMso there is an open-source way to tell it to do things like fire the flash at this brightness at this time and take an exposure of this length with this ISO number, etc. etc.01:32
BCMMoh, and it can capture raw data in DNG format01:32
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BCMMwblaze: features of fcamera or the n900?01:33
wblazeif only my Canon 500D would do the same (DNG vs. RAW)01:34
SpeedEvilWhat's the difference?01:34
wblazefcamera specifically, I've been looking at the n900 since it was released but was never quite affordable enough (imo) to be reasonable01:34
SpeedEvilIt's a real pity the camera is not really 5MP01:36
SpeedEvilWell - there are 5 million pixels.01:36
wblazeSpeedEvil: essentially it's more portable and open, though goes into much more detail01:37
SpeedEvilBut the lens is not actually physically able to resolve due to being so teeny.01:37
wblazeyeah, there's only so much you can do with a cameraphone, though a good lens helps01:37
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SpeedEvilAh - right.01:37
BCMMSpeedEvil: RAW basically means any one of dozens of nonstandard raw formats from different cameras01:37
BCMMwith differing degrees of hostility to reverse engineering01:38
BCMMDNG is a standard raw format + EXIF (i think) metadata01:38
SpeedEvilwblaze: yeah - and there is only so much you can do with an awesome cam and a 1.5mm lens.01:38
wblazewhich is why I have a 500D for when the phone just doesn't cut it :)01:39
BCMMwblaze: btw, downsides of the camera: rolling shutter, noisy in low light, fixed aperture01:39
SpeedEvilI'd love a decent camera, with a decent open OS.01:39
BCMMother than that, it's awesome01:39
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BCMMwell, there goes the battery01:41
BCMMthe really big advantage over most camera phones is that it has variable focus01:41
BCMMmanually-controllable, of course01:42
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wblazemy blackberry has variable focus, but I can't say I've ever been particularly thrilled by it01:45
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wblazeslow and rather terrible in low light01:45
SpeedEvilA couple of my better snaps.01:47
merlin1991I had the perfechet low light scenario for an awesome pic last weekend, but only the n900 at hand :/01:48
SpeedEvilfcamera can help with that.01:48
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wblazeSpeedEvil: that second photo is wonderful01:50
trxi take pics like this :)01:50
SpeedEvilwblaze: The subject is almost impossible to take a bad pic of. It's just so photogenic.01:51
merlin1991SpeedEvil: what did you do to get the pics like they are?01:51
SpeedEvilmerlin1991: What do you mean?01:51
SpeedEvilBoth of those were straight uploads.01:51
merlin1991when I take pics with the n900 I normally have some sort of "noise" in the picture01:51
SpeedEvilThose were in full sun.01:51
SpeedEvilFull sun helps lots01:52
wblazeSpeedEvil: true, but the focus and depth of field are rather impressive for a cellphone01:52
BCMMSpeedEvil: are those n900 shots?01:52
merlin1991also I was wondering if you did them with the regular camera app01:52
SpeedEvilI think so.01:52
SpeedEvil(regular camera)01:52
BCMMwblaze: my favourite of my photos, which i think shows uncameraphonelike focus01:53
SpeedEvilYeah. You can get that effect - but you need to be really quite close to the subject.01:53
BCMM(i know it's somewhat poorly un-vignetted and i'd like to know if anyone know the right parameters to use with lensfun)01:53
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BCMMfor shots like that, i set it to manual focus, 5cm (the minimum)01:54
BCMMthen move the phone to focus it01:54
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BCMMam i right in saying that most cameras will not focus as close as 5cm?01:54
SpeedEvilBCMM: It depends.01:54
wblazeBCMM: wow01:55
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BCMMwblaze: at photo or at n900's 5cm focus?01:55
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SpeedEvilA480 - for example.01:56
merlin1991SpeedEvil: was it blessn900 or fcamera or both that didn't work with the power kernel?01:56
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BCMMwblaze: thx :)01:56
SpeedEvilWill do 12mm vertical frame at minimum focus.01:56
BCMMmerlin1991: fcam and everything using it was broken for a bit01:56
BCMMit's all good now though01:56
BCMMi can't remember if bless used fcam at that point01:57
SpeedEvilI don't think fcam fills in exif01:57
wblaze5cm is close, but not too impressive01:57
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BCMMSpeedEvil: not automatically, at least. you could check fcamera source code01:58
BCMMwblaze: for a compact though :)01:58
wblazemy 9700 (horrible phone to compare with, but it's what I have haha) will autofocus at ~3cm, I believe01:59
wblazequick testing seems to confirm my memory, though01:59
BCMMwblaze: wow01:59
BCMMin my experience, the n900 autofocus is a bit of a pain that close01:59
SpeedEvilThe A480 I mentioned above will go to about 2cm02:00
BCMMliable to choose the background instead of the subject02:00
SpeedEvilI was having problems with that.02:00
BCMMwblaze: fcamera has point focus though02:00
SpeedEvilI was trying to take pictures of a butterfly on a plant, and it kept focussing on the plant02:00
SpeedEvil(I couldn't use the screen)02:01
BCMMdon't know if that's the right word, but i mean that you can tap the screen to show it which bit of the frame needs to be in focus02:01
merlin1991hm install fcamera02:01
SpeedEvilI should have tried fcamera02:01
merlin1991reboot phone -> tracker goes insane wtf?02:01
BCMMslower, though02:01
BCMMi mean, butterflies fly.02:01
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SpeedEvilBCMM: I was trying to take pictures when it landed02:02
BCMMi was really lucky the other day when a frog decided to stand still for long enough for me to start fcam and focus it properly02:02
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SpeedEvilShowing the colour, but little else.02:04
BCMMoh wow02:04
BCMMyou must really hate the autofocus now02:04
wblazeoff topic, but I do have a question for those here - how do you feel about the N900 comparing it to more recent smartphones?  Still holding up or looking to trade it in?02:05
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BCMMwblaze: i want a modernised version of the n90002:06
SpeedEvilSome animals are easier to take pictures of.02:06
BCMMwblaze: but other smartphones are smartphones02:06
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BCMMand the n900 is like a laptop02:07
BCMMSpeedEvil: wow!02:07
BCMMthat toad is ugly and yet weirdly cute02:07
BCMMalso, that photo puts my frog picture to shame02:07
SpeedEvilThat was with extra light - keyring torch02:07
BCMMi'd post it, but it's on a dead n90002:08
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SpeedEvilOh - you can see the flash on the eye.02:08
BCMMthat's weird02:08
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BCMMif i connect it to my computer by USB, i get a dim blinking orange light02:08
BCMMi mean, on the notification led02:08
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BCMMany idea what that means?02:10
BCMMdmesg on hte PC is interesting02:10
BCMM"Cannot enable port 2.  Maybe the USB cable is bad?"02:10
SpeedEvilIt means it's booted, and is in linux02:10
BCMMthank you linux. if only.02:11
BCMMSpeedEvil: it isn't "on"02:11
SpeedEvilblinking, or throbbing?02:11
wblazeBCMM: I was rather hoping for something like my netbook with a phone, so that sounds about perfect :)02:11
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BCMMwblaze: do you use linux/bsd on a laptop/desktop?02:11
wblazealso, usually this is the type of photo I take on my phone, so I'm not really too demanding of it
BCMMSpeedEvil: blinking, rapidly, until the desktop gives up and says "suspend root hub"02:12
wblazemore often on servers, these days but yes a few of them still run linux02:12
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SpeedEvilBCMM: Odd.02:13
BCMMwblaze: it's like a laptop in that it provides a normal-ish linux desktop, adapted for a small screen02:13
SpeedEvilBCMM: That sounds like some sort of power issue.02:13
BCMMSpeedEvil: i don't know if you've seen that the USB port is broken02:14
BCMMi'm just trying to get a little power into it so i can get the photos off02:14
BCMMearlier today, it was working intermitantly02:14
SpeedEvilI'm trying to think what the symptoms may be.02:14
BCMMwblaze: i mean, it is an ordinary X server with a window manager02:15
BCMMalthough all main windows are always maximised02:15
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BCMMand it has a special way of displaying modal dialogs and so on02:15
BCMMSpeedEvil: fwiw, i can produce no such reaction with the power cable02:16
BCMMi mean, the wall charger02:16
BCMMpower pins are longer than data in USB, right?02:17
BCMMi'm going to try half-plugging it in to the PC02:17
BCMM i think it starts blinking when the data pins engage02:19
SpeedEvilIt should react to power on the V+ line02:21
SpeedEvilthe orange light will go on nomatter if there are no other connections.02:22
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wblazeBCMM: power pins are the outer pins on each side02:24
* SpeedEvil finds
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wblazeand thanks :)02:24
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BCMMSpeedEvil: hmm. am i right in saying that simply drawing power from a USB port shouldn't make any dmesg output?02:31
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SpeedEvilUnless you overload it.02:34
SpeedEvilIt will not 'appear' on USB if plugged in when dead until it boots02:34
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SpeedEvilThe n900 processor can go up to a gig of RAM.02:46
SpeedEvilThe largest RAM I've found is 512M though in a compatible format though.02:46
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ShadowJKbug 1223706:50
povbotBug Default WiFi power-saving mode 'Maximum' is unreliable and performs poorly06:50
* ShadowJK shakes head in disbelief06:50
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Maceri sure wish this google calendar sync worked07:39
Macer:) then maemo would be awesome again.. not that it hasn't gotten better lately07:40
Macerkindn of glad i didn't ebay my n90007:40
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Macerguess the sending of email doesn't work either07:49
Macerwow.. what a letdown the google mail for exchange thing has been07:49
lolcatI am looking for another N90007:50
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lolcatIs there a problem to buy a danish N900?07:53
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Maceroh shit08:26
Maceri got the google calendar working08:26
lolcatIs this realistic?08:26
lolcat64gb internal memory?08:26
lolcat1ghz cpu08:26
lolcat512mb ram?08:26
slonopotamuslolcat: i already have 1ghz cpu on n90008:26
slonopotamusmore ram would be nice though08:27
lolcatslonopotamus: No you don't, you have an overclocked 550mhz cpu08:28
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slonopotamuslolcat: so? it runs at 1ghz no matter what's written on its case08:28
robbiethe1stHm, talking about OCing or an underclocked device?08:29
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slonopotamusrobbiethe1st: about
lolcatslonopotamus: A non-overclocked HTC Desire is faster than your overclocked phone08:30
doc|homeis that confirmed?08:30
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doc|homethe next question is do we really want to buy a dead end device?08:31
lolcatdoc|home: They found it on FCC08:31
Macerwon't ocing the n900 burn it out?08:31
slonopotamusdoc|home: according to link, no08:31
lolcat"The Nokia N9 was recently spotted at FCC. A teaser video demonstrating the smartphone has also appeared, and this makes us think that the device will finally be released soon. The release date cannot be guessed yet, but I think it will be around June."08:31
Macercan't see safely running it at 1GHz08:31
robbiethe1stMacer: Yes, probably. at least faster than otherwise.08:31
doc|homeis still a dead-end device, right?08:31
Macerhow stable is it running?08:32
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doc|homeor have they confirmed that there'll be more meego devices?08:32
lolcatI got 4700NOK from the shop I bougth my N90008:32
Macerdoc|home: i just got my su8w bt keyboard working and google syncing08:32
lolcatSo I got the money for a N9 ready08:32
robbiethe1stMacer: Mine runs at 1.15ghz stably, but it gets hot at 100% load(i.e. games) so I only run it at 1ghz for that.08:32
Macerthe email doesn't work but meh. i can use imap for that08:32
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robbiethe1stand, stably as in 12 days + uptime.08:32
slonopotamusMacer: so don't :) mine runs @1ghz since july 2010.08:32
Macerrobbiethe1st: the power kernel says it has broken third party rules in app manager08:32
Maceryou know what's up with that?08:32
Macerapp manager won't let me update it :)08:32
Macernot that i really see the need for a new kernel but still08:33
robbiethe1stMacer: Do what I told the last person: Open a terminal, "sudo apt-get update", "sudo apt-get upgrade"08:33
robbiethe1stAlso, I was wrong. Not 12 days, 22 days.08:33
Macer22 days?08:33
Macerof what?08:33
slonopotamusof uptime08:34
Maceri've probably had my n900 up to over 100 days08:34
lolcatThere where a Nokia N9 teaser video leaked to Youtube that Nokia had removed08:34
Macerbut i wasn't really using it08:34
Maceri'm power using the damn thing now since i got this bt keyboard working08:34
robbiethe1stI could have it longer, but I do use it every day and reboot it once in a while, especially when working on custom software08:34
Macerlike right now on irc ;)08:34
Maceryesterday i was playing music while using the browser and typing a report in abiword... it's like a small laptop now08:35
Maceronce i figure out the cups over ssh crap i'm done08:35
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ruskieMacer, which BT keyboard?08:37
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lolcatSo do we belive the N9 will be out soon?08:38
ruskielolcat, by end of the year08:38
Macernokia su8w08:38
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ruskiethe FCC documentation says keep some stuff private for 45 days08:38
Macerruskie: have it working with my n900 right now08:39
Macerapt says power kernel is still being held back08:39
lolcatruskie: I am hearing rumors it could be announced next month08:39
lolcat64GB internal memory, Oo08:39
MacerThe following packages have been kept back: kernel-power-bootimg pyside-qt4-core pyside-qt4-gui08:39
lolcatI was hoping for 1gb ram though08:39
ruskie <-- mmm08:40
robbiethe1stI'd take those specs with a grain of salt08:40
robbiethe1st'cause it /won't/ run Meego.08:40
robbiethe1stIt'll run a Maemo-based system with a Meego frontend, yes.. but08:40
chx so still no open drivers?08:41
Maceri wonder why the power kernel still won't install08:41
ruskierobbiethe1st, hmm I'd prefer a Maemo frontend ;)08:41
robbiethe1stMee to08:41
lolcatruskie: If it runs Maemo with a Meego frontend, can't we just change it back?08:42
ruskiewould be nice08:42
lolcatAnd the battery on the N9 is said to be 1200mAh08:42
lolcatThat sounds completly stupid08:42
Macerah wel.. better to leave well enough alone.. i don't need the new kernel08:42
dangergrrln9 with maemo or meego?08:42
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dangergrrlno way08:42
dangergrrlnokia dropped us already08:43
Macerdropped us?08:43
dangergrrldon't look back on the boyfriend who won't return your calls08:43
ruskielolcat, why?08:43
Macerdangergrrl: realistically speaking... all the parts of maemo required to do anything are all there08:43
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Macerthe kernel works with all the hardware and it is possible to dev a new ui08:44
lolcatruskie: The N900 has 1250mAh and it is too little08:44
dangergrrli don't believe nokia is releasing another open handset08:44
Macernor do i08:44
dangergrrlthey dumped us opensourcers08:44
Macerms has their claws into them and nokia is on the ropes and losing value quickly to htc, motorola, etc08:44
dangergrrltime to find a new suitor08:44
Macerdangergrrl: android?08:44
ruskielolcat, hmm 4 days with nothing much running on it...08:44
Maceri think intel is just dabbing its feet08:45
dangergrrlintel promises meego handhelds08:45
ruskiex86 handhelds...08:45
Macerdangergrrl: didn't nokia?08:45
ruskiedon't wanna08:45
chxthey also promised Atom based handhelds since... 2008?08:45
chxi think.08:45
lolcatruskie: More like 18 houres08:45
dangergrrlwell who else can we look to?08:45
ruskielolcat, I get 4 days08:45
lolcatruskie: I like(d) my phone08:45
ruskiedangergrrl, samsung and their maemo like stack initiative08:45
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dangergrrli can not finance the fab of 1000 cortex a9 phones08:46
Macermy n900 with maemo seems to do everything i need it to do ... what it is really missing is something to make it look newer08:46
dangergrrlcan you?08:46
Maceri wouldn't mind more eye candy but mehg08:46
dangergrrli would like 1080p08:46
Macerdangergrrl: other arms are probably cheaper08:46
dangergrrlthe a9's are nice08:46
slonopotamusMacer: paint it08:46
Macerslonopotamus: haha08:46
dangergrrldual 1.5ghz08:46
lolcat1080p on small lences sucks08:47
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Maceri am going to see if i can get a rubber cover for it08:47
dangergrrlthat's pc power in your palm08:47
Macerdangergrrl: what is the tv output of the n900?08:47
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Maceri should dig up my cable08:47
dangergrrlthe 1080p uis for a mini hdmi plug08:47
dangergrrlit is pal or ntsc08:47
slonopotamusMacer: 640x480 afaik08:47
dangergrrl720 i think08:47
dangergrrlbut 480 lines08:47
dangergrrlnot sure about on pal08:48
Macerso standard dvd08:48
dangergrrldvd is 720x480?08:48
dangergrrlno it's over 80008:48
slonopotamusn900 video output is less than n900 screen resolution08:48
dangergrrl480 tall i am sure08:48
Macerthat's kind of depressing08:48
Macerbut i honestly don't use my phone for watching shows on the tv anyways08:49
dangergrrlget a pandaboard08:49
Macermegh.i have a popcornhour for that stuff08:49
dangergrrlthere is an open source gsm stack now i heard08:49
dangergrrlno like a guy hacked it08:49
Macerhahaha.. "illegal"08:49
dangergrrlyes it is patented08:49
dangergrrlbut the source is out there08:50
Macerisn't that what meego is using in order to try to get the n900 going?08:50
dangergrrlthe hacked gsm stack?08:50
dangergrrldun no08:50
Macerprobably not08:50
dangergrrlhave not tried meego08:50
dangergrrlone thing at a time08:51
Macernokia is doing their best to kind of brush off the meego project08:51
dangergrrlgetting 32 bit ubuntu 11 cd now08:51
Macerbut then again they did the same to maemo when they were the ones running it so go figure08:51
Macerget kubuntu08:51
Macerkde is better08:51
dangergrrlso i can install madde in a vm08:51
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dangergrrli use sabayon with compiz+gnome08:51
dangergrrlgnome is better08:51
Macercan't say i've ever tried sabayon08:52
dangergrrlmy friends made it before they were corrupted by evil08:52
Maceri think kde is.. but to each their own08:52
Macerkde4 has become awesome. it's all i run nowadays08:52
dangergrrlgnome comes from pure ideology08:52
Macerdon't they all?08:52
dangergrrlkde did not08:52
Macerpeople trying to "make a change" then people start using it and they all lose their heads and act like their shit doesn't stink?08:52
dangergrrlthey were capitalists08:52
Macerthat's why it's better08:53
dangergrrlmiguel i will admit sold out when novell went away08:53
dangergrrlnat did not sell out08:53
dangergrrlhe wuit08:53
Macerpfft.. selling out is only half of it08:53
Macerit's more the mind set08:53
dangergrrli don't know miguel's motives08:53
Maceranyways. i still think kde is better to use08:54
dangergrrli can not find him immoral08:54
Macerit has become absolutely amazing08:54
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Macersomething that i could actually see a windows user jumping on as though nothing has skiped a beat other than a nicer interface08:54
dangergrrlgtk is better than qt08:54
Macerqt seems to adhere to more of a standard.. at least in kde it does08:54
dangergrrli can write gtk apps08:54
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Macerlike ok/cancel always being on the right side08:54
lolcatI guess I will have to make myself an own maemo phone some time08:54
dangergrrland i'm a kernel dev08:54
Macersame side i should say08:54
* slonopotamus yawns08:54
dangergrrlthat's what i like about gtk08:55
Macerlolcat: MAKE YOURSELF?08:55
dangergrrlit is friendly to kernel hackers08:55
lolcatI don't have a better choice if the N9 sucks08:55
dangergrrlwhy should i have to work hard and use c++?08:55
Macerebay an n90008:55
Macerare they that expensive?08:55
dangergrrlmine was 349 at amazon08:55
Maceryou said maemo device right?08:55
dangergrrl$500 now08:56
lolcatMacer: They cost way less than what I got back from my old phone08:56
Macerprobably because bt keyboards work with it08:56
dangergrrllolcat would you be interested at all in a pandaboard?08:56
dangergrrl$170 i think08:56
lolcatBut I want to wait till N9 is released to see08:56
dangergrrlomap 4 dual core08:56
dangergrrl1gb ram08:56
lolcatdangergrrl: What is a pandaboard?08:56
Maceri've tried them all and nothing beats this n900+abiword+bt keyboard08:56
Macerlolcat: sounds like a good idea08:57
Maceryou might turn it on and it will have winmob on it08:57
dangergrrlit's a proto board for a cell phone cpu08:57
dangergrrlsuitable for vehicle mounting for sure08:57
Maceri thought the funniest thing i saw was the android netbook acer had.. with android mascots all over it.. and the guy in the video turns it on.. and xp starts08:57
Maceryou had to enable the android boot in xp :)08:57
lolcatMacer: I thougth all Sybian phones could support bt keyboards?08:57
dangergrrldual core arm cortex a908:57
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slonopotamus"cell phone suitable for vehicle mounting" - scaaary08:58
Macerlolcat: they do but symbian sucks nowadays08:58
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dangergrrlslonopotamus: proto board08:58
Macermy n95 worked great with this su8w08:58
dangergrrlnot a cell phone08:58
Macerah well.. bbl08:58
dangergrrlthe n900 is as much about creating the tech you want to have as anything else08:59
dangergrrlwe can do it ourselves again08:59
dangergrrli can spend like $40009:00
dangergrrland donate some time which i don't know how fruitful it would be09:00
dangergrrland i want an omap 4 handset09:00
dangergrrl100% free09:00
dangergrrli think it should be called the phree09:02
* slonopotamus yawns09:02
dangergrrlbetter than fonesselar09:03
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* RST38h yawns, moos09:05
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RST38hdangergrrl: Been attempted before. Failed.09:05
RST38hdangergrrl: See Openmoko, Freerunner09:06
dangergrrlopenmoko happened09:06
RST38hIt failed, miserably.09:06
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dangergrrldid someone lose big money?09:06
dangergrrli thought people got what they paid for09:07
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RST38hDunno. All I know is that their phone could not make phone calls.09:07
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dangergrrlthat part has been done now09:07
ruskieit also lacked a major feature... a keyboard09:07
dangergrrlmight be illegal to use09:07
RST38hAnd the last I heard from the last (?) user was "Don't call me, as my phone often fails receiving calls, and I use EMACS to make and answer them anyway"09:07
RST38hSo, it was a failure.09:08
dangergrrlwhat would it cost to make 100009:08
RST38hA lot. Costly failure.09:08
* RST38h can suggest an alternative09:08
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dangergrrli bet that could be done09:08
RST38hProlly something like $1500-$2000 apiece09:08
ruskieimho what would be needed to actually start this is to make a slim down basic s40 type linux based device...09:08
dangergrrlthat much to gear up?09:08
RST38hdanger: it is a conservative estimate09:09
ruskiethen use the profits from that to actually start making smartphones09:09
RST38hThere is an easier way to do what you want09:09
robbiethe1stWouldn't it be easier to just build a new OS/firmware for an existing device? Buy up a bunch of old X units, put new firmware on them...09:09
RST38hWill not cost much money. Will still fail though.09:09
robbiethe1stThat's what prepaid companies do..09:09
dangergrrlfu then09:09
RST38hdangergrrl: Do not build hw. Take a standard HTC phone or phones.09:09
dangergrrli think it can work09:10
dangergrrland just hack them?09:10
RST38hdangergrrl: Use bottom pieces from the existing Android stack. Build your own firmware.09:10
dangergrrlreverse engineering is fail09:10
robbiethe1stWell, if you've got the money, it's not "hacking". You're creating OEM firmware, and you'd probably get the specs too!09:10
RST38hdangergrrl: reverse engineering of these devices has been mostly done09:10
dangergrrli know from my close multiple friends experience09:10
RST38hAnd they are pretty standard almost-reference designs anyway09:10
RST38hAnyways,it will still fail, for non-technical reasons09:11
dangergrrlhow about a china vendor09:11
dangergrrlthey make shit cheap09:11
RST38hHTC IS a china vendor.09:11
robbiethe1stThe big problem is getting people to buy it09:11
dangergrrli want 100009:11
robbiethe1stIf you can get enough /customers/ with money, you can make it succeed09:11
RST38hThey won't be able to make 1000 cheap09:11
RST38h100000 - maybe09:11
RST38hrobbie: but you cannot.09:12
robbiethe1stAnd that's the problem, yes.09:12
RST38hrobbie: and no, you won't get any money from penguin worshippers, they never pay09:12
ruskieRST38h, wrong09:12
RST38htoo used to getting stuff for free09:12
robbiethe1stWell, I think it's more that /not many/ people have $300 disposible income. 10-20, sure,09:13
RST38hrobbie: Common excuse.09:13
robbiethe1stsee the whole humble bundle things.09:13
RST38hrobbie: "I would buy it if I had money"09:13
ruskie<-- had 600 eur disposable income for the n90009:13
RST38hrobbie: The answer is "I would give it to you for free if I had money", ok?09:13
dangergrrlihm, how many n900s have been sold?09:13
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RST38hmany more than Nokia planned, afaik09:13
RST38hBut then, N900 is not one of your open-source devices09:14
RST38hIt is a normal Nokia phone, with features, support, etc09:14
robbiethe1stBut, erm, see the number of people who buy phones on contract. If people truely had money, they'd be better off buying it outright. But they don't.09:14
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robbiethe1st$300's a lot unless you can put it on credit.09:14
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RST38hrobbie: People who "buy" phones on contracts are stupid cheapskates who do not understand that the damn phone's price is included into contract09:15
robbiethe1stWell, yes.09:15
RST38hrobbie: When you are making money, $300 is nothing09:15
RST38hrobbie: When you are not making money, credit won't save you. Simple as that.09:15
robbiethe1stAnd near as I can tell - at least here in the US - most people live paycheck to paycheck already09:15
robbiethe1steven /with/ a job.09:15
snappyit seems to be a lifestyle choice if anything.09:16
RST38hrobbie: Why does it matter to a company selling you a phone?09:16
robbiethe1st300's not much, until you take out gas, food, housing, etc.09:16
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snappyat least from the people that i've met that live paycheque to paycheque.09:16
robbiethe1stWell, it matters because because they won't have the market.09:16
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RST38hrobbie: And if they give you the phone for free, they will have the market?09:16
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snappybut if you're talking aboutt hose that are genuinely poor and can't afford the basics living to paycheque to paycheque, that just sucks.09:17
robbiethe1stOh, definitely. But I'm talking more about contract sort of payment scheme09:17
RST38hrobbie: Market is where you sell something.09:17
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RST38hrobbie: If you are not selling anything, it is a handout09:17
RST38hrobbie: And, as I have said before, contracts are still selling you the device, often for a higher price09:18
robbiethe1stErm, so if AT&T gets me into a 2-year contract with "free" phone, that's not selling me the device09:18
ruskiedepends on the contract09:18
robbiethe1stThat's my point09:18
RST38hrobbie: How come you do not have $300 for the phone, but you do have $99/mo for the contract?09:18
dangergrrli am disabled on social security09:19
robbiethe1stYes. They are making loads off it. I'm saying that if you can provide people an option like that -- however dumb it is -- you;ll get more interest09:19
dangergrrl\i paid $350 for my n90009:19
* RST38h sighs at robbie09:19
ruskiemy contract is only 5eur/month with 12 eur additional for 2gb/data that I can cancel at any time...09:19
dangergrrlruskie: jealous09:19
RST38hruskie: I have no contract, paying ~$10/mo for the phone and data :)09:19
dangergrrlmine is 90us/mo09:19
robbiethe1stI paid 310 myself, but I'm an exception. most Android, iOS, WP7 devices are bought on contract09:20
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ruskieRST38h, pay as you go?09:20
dangergrrlfor unlimited* data and 500 daytime minutes09:20
RST38hruskie: yes09:20
ruskieRST38h, had that... it was a bit to pricey for my needs09:20
dangergrrlbut unlimited means you get modem speed after 5gb09:20
RST38hrobbie: You are 1) US centric and 2) do not quite understand how contract stuff works09:20
ruskieor pre-pay to be exact...09:20
RST38hruskie: There are other options here, if I want to choose them09:20
robbiethe1stRST38h: That I am. US is a big market. and 2, yes I do know. I can tell you I'd never get into a contract if I had the choice.09:21
lolcatI pay like, $60 for 1000minutes/sms/mms/mb a month09:21
RST38hruskie: Like $30/mo unlimited (actually capped) data09:21
robbiethe1stBut I also know how many people take the option.09:21
RST38hrobbie: You have the choice, even in the US09:21
ruskiethe 5eur is for pay as you go phone calls/data/minutes09:21
dangergrrlmost us phones carry a subsidy if you buy a contract09:21
ruskieno inclusive anything09:21
ruskiejust basic service09:21
dangergrrlthe n900 i own an didn'rt need a contract09:21
robbiethe1stRST38h: Only T-Mobile provides a pre-paid option with data that's not on a month-to-month basis.09:21
RST38hruskie: services are relatively cheap here09:21
FireFly|n900I pay ~$10 for unlimited data transfer..09:22
dangergrrlbut it is advantagous i have one09:22
RST38hrobbie: See, you have the choice09:22
meceI pay 32€/month, includes N900, 2 simcards w/ unlimited full speed data and 3000 minutes09:22
lolcatFireFly|n900: I feel 1gb is enough09:22
robbiethe1stYes, and look at how poorly T-mobile's doing09:22
ruskieRST38h, basically I prefer a static cost month-to-month09:22
dangergrrli have a 2 year contract for unlimited* data with slower transfer after 5gb09:22
RST38hAnyways, to reiterate: there is no "free" stuff. You still pay for it.09:22
robbiethe1stPoorly enough that Deutch Telekom is trying to get rid of it09:22
ruskieI hardly ever use minutes or sms...09:22
FireFly|n900lolcat, that's true09:22
mecelolcat, How do you manage? I have an average of 12Gigs a month09:22
robbiethe1stAnd ues, RST, I've never disagreed with that.09:23
ruskieI can't use 500mb in a month...09:23
lolcatmece: On your cellphone? Oo09:23
FireFly|n900mece, it's easy if you're often near wifi09:23
RST38hAnd making a "free" hacker-friendly phone is not gonna work.09:23
ruskiemuch less 2gb...09:23
dangergrrli used 5gb is 2 days09:23
RST38hNever worked before.09:23
mecelolcat, yeah09:23
lolcatmece: I have 10/10mbit at home, I do most downloading there09:23
dangergrrly not09:23
lolcati guess09:23
RST38hYou have got a slightly better chance modifying firmware in existing semi-researched phones09:23
dangergrrlit did work before09:23
RST38hdanger: Freerunner failed miserably09:24
robbiethe1stBut if you can provide a contract or "pay off in 12 months" option at $40/month, and a pay outright option at $300, you'll have a better market I'm sure.09:24
dangergrrldid the open moko cost $1000?09:24
RST38hdanger: No, it cost $400 but still could not make calls out of the box09:24
mecelolcat, I have 24/1, but I use my phone a lot, and I never bother switching to wlan09:24
robbiethe1stand yes, at $40 you'd make $480 on it, but hey... why not?09:24
RST38hdanger: Which is a failure, sorry09:24
dangergrrlmy n900 was 35009:24
lolcatmece: I am not allowed to have wlan09:24
mecelolcat, wtf?09:24
lolcatIt is a student housing thing09:24
dangergrrli'm willing tho accept that level of sucess09:25
RST38hdanger: N900 is not a free open source phone. It is a semiopen product from a large corporation, with all pluses and minuses attached09:25
dangergrrli consider the openmoko to have suceeded09:25
lolcatThey provide the internet, and because the majority of people is to dumb to secure a wifi network09:25
RST38hdanger: And please, do notice where that corporation is now. Try not breath through your nose.09:25
meceopenmoko wasn't free afaik09:25
lolcatRST38h: Freeer than android?09:25
dangergrrlgoogle is playing games with android09:26
meceI thought we were talking about what it costs09:26
ruskietechincally other than the gsm chip and it's firmware... everything else could be open... don't think there are any limits anywhere...09:26
RST38hdangergrrl: Should we discuss why software-only non-commercial approach will not work? :)09:27
dangergrrlso why could we not have it for $400 or so09:27
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dangergrrlthat would hurt09:27
RST38hIt will.09:27
dangergrrlbut i could do it09:28
RST38h'cause we would have to use tmo as an example.09:28
dangergrrlsoftware only i already have the n90009:28
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dangergrrli would get a nook color for that09:28
RST38hOk. You have got a Nook Color.09:28
RST38hWhat is next?09:28
dangergrrlor a pandaboard09:28
RST38hOr a freaking meego.09:29
* ArkN900 is on nokia developer days in moscow09:29
RST38hIt will all end up the same way. We can use CSSU as an example.09:29
ArkN900omfg, they are talking like nothing happened09:29
dangergrrlno, use meego on the pandaboard09:29
dangergrrlport the fremantle apps i use09:30
dangergrrlthere is gtk for meego09:30
RST38hYou will have 1) 3-5 actual developers, working on this thing for free, in their spare time, at night and 2) 9000+ penguin wrshippers, flooding forums with posts about how they luuurrrrv free open-softwate, how it will save the world, oh, my phone bricked now, what do I do WHAT DO I DO???09:30
jogaRST38h hah :)09:31
dangergrrlwell, juri would be one09:31
dangergrrland she counts for three09:31
RST38hArkn900: Hehe :)09:31
dangergrrlsounds like i would actually have to code09:31
GAN900RST38h, CSSU is ended?09:32
RST38hdanger: "I would love to help, if I could code, but I do not know C or C++ or anything about coding!"09:32
RST38hdanger: (dozens of these posts on tmo)09:32
RST38hGAN: No, it has not09:32
dangergrrlRST38h: i can teach them that09:32
RST38hGAN: Not so far anyway09:32
dangergrrli am past coding prime09:32
RST38hdanger: For free? In your spare time?09:32
dangergrrlyes i would teach for free09:33
RST38hdanger: Good luck :)09:33
dangergrrli am an anarchist09:33
lolcatdangergrrl: me too09:33
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dangergrrlhow could i teach other than for free?09:33
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dangergrrlMohammadAG: do you think we could put together a cortexa9 handheld?09:34
dangergrrli can teach09:34
dangergrrlno actually i can teach a lot09:35
dangergrrldo you understand multicomputing?09:35
lolcatMohammadAG: With dual-core, 1gb ram, 64gb rom, 4g and a qwerty keyboard and based on debian?09:36
lolcatWhat is maemo anyways? A gui?09:36
ruskieand middleware09:36
ruskieand the rather broken init ideas09:36
lolcatto me it looks like debian with maemo stuff instead of gnome09:36
ruskieand the broken filesystem layout09:36
ruskiewould be nice if it was debian with just a ui layer09:37
ruskiesadly it's not09:37
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lolcatruskie: Why didn't they just mount it all at /09:37
ruskiebecause on chip storage costs09:37
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dangergrrlwe could do our own gnome based deal09:37
lolcatruskie: That is what I am thinking, what exactly does maemo do?09:37
jogateach someone who doesn't know coding how to program a custom handheld device? good luck...09:37
lolcatThat is good for the user09:37
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joga(sounds like years of work)09:37
RST38hyea, a bit farfetched09:37
lolcatThe maemo window manager is that complicated?09:38
dangergrrljoga someone taught me to design operating systems when i only wanted to play games09:38
RST38hhave you designed any?09:38
ruskiemake a minimal s40 style device that you can sell to joe average and that doesn't actually need to be a smart phone... sell those first... fund your venture from that... then make a proper smartphone based on the same prinicple09:38
RST38hruskie: why not start with car tires? =)09:39
dangergrrlactually the only real code project i am involved with is oskit09:39
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dangergrrland i hope we can get something that will boot on n90009:39
ruskieRST38h, doesn't really matter with what you start as long as it's something that will ensure you keep getting money down the line for your other r&d projects09:40
dangergrrl\that would be nifty09:40
RST38hdangergrrl: ...09:40
dangergrrlif you have oskit you have janos09:40
lolcatCould we run debian on the N900?09:41
dangergrrlalthough i don't like java it was interesting research09:41
dangergrrllolcat: a partial yes for sure09:41
RST38hruskie: Ok, next question: why not *stop* at car tires?09:41
ruskieRST38h, that's philosophy ;)09:41
lolcatRST38h: We need a great phone09:42
dangergrrli have a vision for what an os should look like09:42
dangergrrli exist09:42
dangergrrlwhat is my function09:42
dangergrrlwhat resources do i need09:42
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RST38hruskie: no, it is business09:42
lolcatI also have a vision: "Hey, thanks for turning me on"09:43
RST38hvisions are penny a dozen09:43
dangergrrli don't care about business09:43
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ruskieRST38h, it's philosophy because it depends what drives you... is it... I want to make tires... or I want to make interesting products but I need starting capital09:43
dangergrrli care only for the economy of ideas09:44
RST38hruskie: I want to make money. This is what drives business :)09:44
dangergrrlmoney is of little use09:44
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RST38hvery usable and versatile, from where I am09:45
dangergrrlit does not amplify consciousness09:45
RST38hdangergrrl: If you mean drugs, drugs also cost money.09:45
jogadangergrrl, instead of a geeky handset...why not concentrate effort on something like global village construction set or similar enabling technologies09:45
ruskieRST38h, then you stop at making tires...09:45
dangergrrlwe don't need technologies09:46
jogauh what?09:46
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dangergrrlwe need ideaologies09:46
RST38hNo shit, too many people, have to kill off another few billions.09:46
dangergrrlwe have plenty of resources09:46
RST38hCan't effectively do that without ideologies driving the extermination09:46
dangergrrlamerica is not broke09:47
RST38hand the sky is green.09:47
dangergrrlthe koch brothers are certainly not broke09:47
lolcatdangergrrl: How much money do you have per capita? I mean the goverment09:47
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dangergrrli have my pension09:48
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dangergrrlgeneral electric pays no taxes09:48
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lolcatThe goverment has $120 000 with my name on it09:48
lolcatAnd another $120k for each and every one of our inhabitants09:49
RST38hAnd will continue paying no taxes long after your pension stops due to lack of funds09:49
* RST38h cackles09:49
jogadangergrrl, anyway, my point just was that if you're a visionary that doesn't care about money, wouldn't there be something more fulfilling than designing an internet device?09:49
RST38hNone of this makes any difference or has any meaning from where you stand09:49
RST38hObama can be soaring above the WH on an inflatable pink elephant, and it STILL won't affect you in any meaningful way09:50
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RST38hdangergrrl: Shouldn't we get back to the ground though?09:51
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RST38hdangergrrl: You are saying that you would like to make a true open-source hackable free mobile platform, right?09:51
Corsacand ponies09:51
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lolcatRST38h: Why is that implausible?09:53
ArkN900haha, they removed "ovi messaging" im client from s3 and now they are bringing it back in anna and trying to picture that as big step fowrard. *pathetic*09:53
lolcatWhat is Anna?09:54
RST38hArkanoid: Admit you only came there to troll +)09:55
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ArkN900rst38h, i never made a secret of it :)09:59
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Macerhm.. is there a good protector for the n900?10:02
Macersomething like a body glove that lets the qwerty slide out?10:02
Macergoogle dont fail me now10:03
lolcatOne thing I was wondering about10:03
lolcatIS meego linux?10:03
lolcatIf so can we just export the meego drivers, caller, and such10:03
ruskielolcat, yes it is10:03
lolcatput it in maemo and run it?10:03
ruskiea more recent kernel though10:03
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lolcatOr take the maemo gui export it and put it ontop of meego?10:03
lolcatis meego debian?10:04
ruskiefedora isn't it?10:04
Macersolar charger for n900 hahahahaha10:05
lolcatruskie: OpenSuse10:05
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ruskieMacer, cheap10:06
Macerruskie: this site cant be for real10:07
Macerteloscopic attachment for an n900?10:07
ruskieno thanks10:07
Macercmon ruskie... back to the soviet days :)10:08
lolcatThe MeeGo Core operating system is a Linux distribution, drawing on Nokia’s Debian-based Maemo and Intel’s Fedora-based Moblin.[23] MeeGo is one of the first Linux distributions to use the Btrfs file system as default, and uses RPM repositories.10:08
lolcatAnd it uses openSuse package manager10:08
lolcatwhat a mess10:08
Macerthis place is in eu tho10:08
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Maceri doubt they ship to the US10:08
ruskiehahaha original n900 stylus/pen10:09
Macerah! this is what i need10:09
lolcatEven though MeeGo was initiated as collaboration between Nokia and Intel, the collaboration was formed when Nokia was already developing the next incarnation of its Maemo Linux distribution. As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”.[8]10:09
dangergrrlRST38h: yes i would like to help with that10:09
lolcatWill it have a newer debian?10:09
Macerthat will protect it well.. i had one of those for my n80010:10
Macerit protected it from a few bad falls10:10
lolcatIs MeeGo/Harmattan still debian?10:11
ruskieA dummy phone resembling the Nokia N900, purely for display, at a store, for example. Comes with FREE SHIPPING <-- I wouldn't mind having one of these in my pocket10:11
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ruskieif someone tries mugging me or something...10:11
lolcatruskie: Was it expencive?10:11
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RST38hdangergrrl: Perfect. Would you like to use Linux as a base or write your own kernel?10:13
Macerruskie :)10:13
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Maceri dont see why someone would have one of those unless there is a huge demand for a discontinued phone10:14
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Macerlike if it could project a holographic sex slave or something10:14
Macerthen they would be on ebay for $10,000,00010:14
Maceroh. it says we deliver to everywhere heh10:15
Macermust be located in china10:15
Macerportugal.. wow10:16
ruskieMacer, portugal and south africa ;)10:16
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Maceryah. the south africa one was a little concerning10:16
Macermaybe when the english were running things i would buy something from there10:16
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dangergrrli am no longer ambitious or energetic enough to write my own kernel but i would like oskit to run on it10:17
dangergrrllinux is kindof bloaty these days for what it is used for in some cases10:18
Macerfor those days where you have nationa. security secrets on your n90010:18
dangergrrlyou have holographic sex slaves?10:19
cehtehdangergrrl: i'd like to experiment to trim down the current linux kernel by configuration only10:19
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dangergrrlcan they cuddle?10:19
Macerdangergrrl: yeah... it's an ap in -testing10:19
dangergrrlhow freaky do i have to be about water anyhow?10:20
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Macerit doesnt look like that armor case lets the qwerty come out10:20
cehtehwow this armor case is awesome10:20
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dangergrrlforget about the sex, i can cuddle my n900?10:20
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RST38hdangergrrl: Ok. So, Linux kernel.10:21
dangergrrli just need more stuffies :P10:21
RST38hdangergrrl: I suggest you take a generic Linux distro, like Ubuntu, and write your mobile platform in it.10:22
RST38hdangergrrl: If you want to do mobile from the start, take a pandaboard or something, it has got Linux10:22
lolcatRST38h: Why not debian?10:22
RST38hdangergrrl: YOu only need to implement or put together the middleware, and trhe basic apps.10:23
RST38hdangergrrl: As you already know what is required, and willing to teach other people about it, it should be a fun little project10:23
Macerok. i need to stop looking at n900 accessories before i go broke10:23
cehtehmiddleware = dbus looks like a nice thing .. frontend = emacs :)10:23
RST38hAll tools are already there for you - Linux, X11, SDL, Gtk+, Qt10:23
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Maceri need a new qwerty pad for it.. mine is worn10:23
RST38hcehteh: Why have dbus when you can run all apps inside emacs, implementing them in LISP? :)10:24
Macerthe space bar has this huge white spot on it10:24
cehtehRST38h: elisp is so damn slow10:24
RST38hcehteh: Never stopped real adepts10:24
cehtehit will be a battery eater and lag-o-matic10:24
RST38hcehteh: I mean, people tried implementing whole software stacks in Java!10:24
cehtehcould someone write an awesome JIT compiler for elisp please?10:24
RST38hWhy not eLISP then...10:24
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cehteh(or take the emacs concept to lua and use lua instead)10:25
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RST38hcehteh: JavaScript.10:28
cehtehmaybe that too .. js and lua are similar in some parts10:28
RST38hIsn't it logical, with QtQuick, web runtime, and all?10:28
dangergrrljust having a working design does not make a handheld10:29
RST38hdangergrrl: Make a working design first.10:29
cehteh(and decent js jit compilers learned a lot from luajit)10:29
RST38hdangergrrl:  Then make it work on a hacked HTC for example10:29
RST38hdangergrrl: Highly anarchically10:29
cehtehwell you need a good stack of libraries in js .. is there such?10:29
dangergrrli'm wanting to protype with the pandaboard on my motorcycle for augmented reality10:29
RST38hdangergrrl: Once it works, you may try approaching some smaller Chinese phone manufacturer (ZTE?) asking for a batch of their Android phones, sans the firmware10:30
dangergrrli don't need that to be handheld10:30
RST38hOk, here goes the great idea of creating a truly free open source mobile platform.10:30
dangergrrlbut if what makes a cool augmented reaslity system for me also is the basis for an awesome handheld that would be nice10:31
dangergrrlpandaboard is free and mountable but not handheld10:31
dangergrrlit fits my needs for the bike10:31
* RST38h sighs: this whole recurring "I want to make a mobile platform but have better things to do" story starts reminding him of the guy trying to hump hamsters10:32
RST38hdangergrrl: :)10:33
MohammadAGdangergrrl, we can, but whether or not it can go into production is something else10:34
jogawhich reminds me, someone has or has tried openpandora?10:34
jogawhen I think of unfortunate delays in production I think of took them so long to actually get it manufactured because of all sorts of problems with their suppliers that it wasn't as cutting edge after release10:35
jogabut I haven't seen the device, had it not seemed like there are problems in getting it to market I might have ordered one earlier10:36
* MohammadAG rephrases that10:36
ruskieyay for 16MP cameras on a 2mm sensor...10:36
MohammadAGwhether it's a big failure or not is something else :p10:36
RST38hjoga: Pupnik has ordered one10:36
ruskiethat sure as hell is realistic10:36
RST38hjoga: ask him when he is online10:37
jogaRST38h, do you know if he has got it? ;)10:37
lolcatIs the N9 only for devs?10:38
lolcatMy nokia developer application was not accepted, they asked what kind of developing I was doing...10:39
MohammadAGI thought you said you were a contractor10:39
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RST38hjoga: No idea. After a while, it stopped mattering, didn't it?10:40
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lolcatMohammadAG: I thougth you said you didn't belive me10:48
lolcatBesides I am not a software contractor10:49
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phrearchis there a recent build of chromium for maemo available somewhere?11:23
phrearchi currently have chromium 6 from some external repo11:23
Macerhow is it?11:24
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phrearchit's working ok, but i need a newer version for the websocket app im working on11:25
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Maceri didnt even know they still had it for maemo.. thought there was some lic problem11:25
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phrearchyea, i dont understand why they cant leave out the proprietary part11:25
Maceri am looking for it now to try it out11:27
phrearchmaybe try this example websocket site if you like:
phrearchworks only in chromium/chrome with .76 hixie websocket protocol11:27
phrearchhm, how is qt on maemo11:28
lolcatIt is really cute11:28
* lolcat goes to make paraqt11:28
Maceri could hear the punchline drums after that one lolcat11:28
phrearchdoes it replace some parts of gtk?11:29
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phrearchin maemo that is11:29
lolcatMacer: First or last?11:29
mecephrearch, perhaps jacekowski might build a newer one?11:29
phrearchmece: havent read anything after the initial release. is he around here sometimes?11:30
phrearchwould be nice to have a running chromium 1111:30
mece~seen jacekowski11:30
infobotjacekowski is currently on #maemo. Has said a total of 8 messages. Is idling for 14h 54m 8s, last said: 'i've heard something about microsoft buying nokia'.11:30
mecehaha he's online :D11:30
phrearchaha ok :)11:30
JaffaMorning, all11:30
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meceJaffa, \o11:30
phrearchyea that would be awesome. building a project like chromium is quite a task. i wouldnt know where to start actually11:31
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Macerit doesnt go faster than microb does it?11:33
Macerthe thread says it goes just as slow11:33
Macerthe syncing might be nice to have though11:33
phrearchits not very fast no11:34
phrearchbut better than gecko based browsers imo11:34
phrearchthat v8 engine seems to be very fast11:34
Macerwell... it is wk right?11:35
Macerisn't tear as well?11:35
phrearchyea webkit + v8 i think11:35
phrearchi think webkit has its own js engine normally?11:35
Maceri dont know.. i can honestly say i havent run into many gripes with microb to look11:36
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robbiethe1stBut Opera's the only one with HW accel for drawing images(I'm pretty sure)11:36
Maceri usually just use opera for the quick stuff11:36
Macerand microb for mostly everything11:36
Macerfennec is absolutely horrible11:37
phrearchhm, is maemo-qt something i can install over the default maemo?11:37
robbiethe1stMacer: same11:38
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Macerwhy isnt opera rotating?11:39
chem|stalterego: was columbus your little Qt-toy?11:40
chem|stphrearch: maemo-qt is a framework not an operatingsystem11:40
Maceroh nm11:41
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Macercssu has some global screen lock thing11:41
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alteregochem|st: yes11:41
chem|stphrearch: you should not be forced to install it by hand as it should get pulled in by dependencies11:41
phrearchchem|st: aha ok. i thought it was a seperate distribution of maemo11:41
chem|stalterego: do you get the fullscreen button right in the middle after startup too?11:42
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alteregochem|st: yeah, known issue that's fixed in my master code but nt distributed.11:45
* ArkN900 trolled about ovi maps a bit11:50
phrearchso, maemo == meego ?11:50
ruskiesince when?11:50
phrearchow ok, i thought i read it was a rename of maemo11:51
RST38hArkanoid: Are they now Ovi Services Maps?11:52
RST38hwait, no, Nokia Services Maps11:52
phrearchi managed to get meego running on an external sd-card a while ago, but it didnt run very well11:52
nid0what class was the card11:53
phrearchi think class 411:53
ruskie6 minimal to get even remotely usable performance11:53
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phrearchaha ok. the part on which maemo runs, is quite faster then i suppose11:54
ruskieof course11:54
lardman|homemorning chaps11:55
Macerdamn this maemo syncing with google is great11:55
Macernow if only abiword and gnumeric synced with google docs11:55
ruskieI would prefer decent syncml support... but that would require a good standalone accept everything syncml server11:56
nid0im happy enough with my google calendar syncing \o/11:56
Maceri' happy i got the calendar going11:56
lardman|homenid0: what do you use for that?11:56
nid0lardman|home: erminig11:57
Macernid0: ;) yeah i was messing with that for a while11:57
lardman|homehmm, has it been updated as last time I tried it wasn't interested?11:57
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Maceri just used mail for exchange to sync11:57
nid0not for a while afaik, i've been using it for at least 8-10 months or so without problems11:57
Macertoo bad i couldnt get mail for exchange to send emails11:58
Maceri still have to use imap and turn email syncing off11:58
* nid0 curses maemo's imap implementation11:59
Macerbut the contacts and the calendar is working like a champ11:59
Macernid0: never had a problem with it afa google goes11:59
nid0my major issues with it are lack of imap-idle and no local folder subscriptions11:59
Macermy problem is i have a g2 as well so it is nice to just have to add contacts once12:00
lardman|homeI'll have to take another look at it12:00
nid0I still have to end up using my e90 + profimail when I need proper mobile mail12:00
Macerwhy not just copy them to a local folder?12:01
nid0copy what?12:01
Maceror cant you force modest to cache everything?12:01
Maceroh. guess not12:02
ruskie* > modest > outlook*12:02
ruskiekinda how I would rank modest12:02
Macermodest isnt too bad12:02
ruskieand that includes plain telnet access12:02
nid0tbh, OE / WLM >>>> modest12:02
Maceroe ftw!12:03
Macerkmail :-P12:03
* Macer hides under a rock12:03
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* chem|st shrugs12:08
chem|stdo I understand something wrong or why the hell should it help a $user to have a more secure device by generating id_rsa keys by default (on the same device)...12:10
RST38h"Intel, speaking out of turn and damaging its intimate relationship with Microsoft, has revealed that legacy x86-compiled software will not work on the ARM version of Windows 8."12:10
RST38hCpt Obvious!12:10
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chem|stthats just like my ssh discussion on #meego yesterday...12:11
chem|sthow should x86 compiled stuff run on a not x86 architecture?12:12
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chem|stI mean without wrapper or emu12:12
fluxthen you have some people saying that hey, it's INTEL saying that, who knows what microsoft has in their pockets!12:12
RST38hchem: Obviously, ARM should just add x86 instruction set!12:13
fluxsimply run the software through a translator and you're done.12:13
chem|stRST38h: true12:13
RST38hflux: Microsoft can't have in its pockets more than technologically possible12:13
chem|stbut as long as there isn't there wont12:13
fluxrst38h, simply integrate qemu!12:13
RST38hAnd no, flux, it is not "simply running software through a translator"12:13
fluxanother interesting thing is that intel is catching up in the power consumption by having a better process12:14
RST38hflux: What would be performance of qemu, emulating x86 on an ARM?12:14
fluxI just cannot see how the ARM camp cannot reach that as well, by using a better process12:14
chem|stbad idea12:14
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RST38hchem: Is Cyrix still around? They should have an x86 license =)12:14
fluxrst38h, there are real attempts on emulating other cpus. was it HP's Dynamo or something, that actually could have better performance on running x86 on x86 than natively..12:14
fluxdoes qemu make use of advanced techniques, such as JIT?12:15
chem|stRST38h: guess they died as all others12:16
chem|stNational Semiconductor tried some stuff on the remains12:17
chem|stlicenses were given to china and peking by AMD (x86 Cyrix)12:19
chem|stRST38h: so no they aren't around anymore12:20
chem|stI had a Cx486DX, DX2 and a DX4 btw12:20
chem|stoh and the SLC...12:21
RST38hchem: hey that x86 license should still be owned by someone12:21
chem|stthe first system was about 9k€12:21
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chem|stRST38h: AMD12:21
RST38hchem: 1) ARM buys the x86 license with the owner company 2) ARM adds x86 instruction set 3) ××× 4) PROFIT!12:21
RST38hchem: AMD has its own license12:22
chem|stand they have the Cx one, that is how they could licence it to asia12:22
RST38hchem: Cyrix's license is owned by VIA12:22
RST38hchem: AMD owns its own license12:22
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RST38hOn the other hand, why would anyone NEED an x86-compatible CPU, other than for running MS Windows and MS Office? And Microsoft is porting both to ARM.12:24
chem|stRST38h: where did you get that... all I read is that cyrix was VIA later on12:24
robbiethe1stRST38h: You've got that right.12:24
robbiethe1stRST38h: Actually, the /only/ thing is MS Windows Games, and other "legacy" software12:25
robbiethe1stWell, if it won't run on Windows ARM, so it's "legacy".12:26
robbiethe1stAnd if it will, we can use Wine.12:26
RST38hchem: Wiki12:26
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chem|stRST38h: nvm12:26
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lardman|homehmm, those TMO threads about the n950 are hard work12:56
mecelardman|home, but fin tiems!12:58
infobotmece meant: lardman|home, but fun tiems!12:58
lardman|homemece: absolutely I'm excited12:58
lardman|homelike waiting for Christmas as a kid and all that :)12:58
lolcatlardman|home: I hope it is dual core12:59
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lolcatdr0id: :SSSS13:02
dr0idHey lolcat13:02
lolcatWhy not maem0?13:02
chem|stone month to go... excited but I guess I won't buy one as it is a cap. screen13:03
crashanddiedr0id, you want the kb?13:03
dr0idI really don't understand wuts goin on13:03
dr0idyou asked me to come here, I came here13:04
meceI wouldn't thouch it unless it were hepta core.13:04
crashanddieI didn't ask you to come here13:04
crashanddieI told everyone in ##php to join #maemo if they fancied a free kickban :)13:04
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dr0idok, I invite you all to ##php-lance and #freelance , if you all don't want a free kickban13:04
crashanddiespamming other channels, I think that's a valid excuse.13:05
crashanddiehehe :P13:05
lardman|homelolcat: dual core would be good, but really a bigger screen + e-compass (I hope) would do13:06
lardman|homehey crashanddie13:06
crashanddiehey lardman13:06
lolcatthe screen is big enough13:06
lardman|homelolcat: bigger than N900 I mean13:06
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lardman|homecrashanddie: how's things?13:06
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crashanddieNot too bad13:07
crashanddieLiving in the south of France, nice little job13:08
crashanddieLiving with the gf, all that13:08
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crashanddieyou lardman|home?13:08
chem|stcrashanddie: where are you at then? thought you where somewhere more northern13:08
crashanddiechem|st, Perpignan, 40km from the Spanish border.13:09
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crashanddieNorthern enough for you? :P13:09
chem|sthehe I know perpignan, actualy to far north, I prefer gijon +-40km13:10
crashanddieGijón is actually further north than Perpignan.13:11
chem|stwhy do they use "offshore" for "outsourcing"13:12
chem|stcrashanddie: is it o_O13:12
crashanddiechem|st, yeah, Gijón is actually about 150km or so north13:13
chem|stah sure perpignan is on the southest end of france13:13
crashanddieIt's on the same level as Montpellier13:13
lardman|homecrashanddie: yeah13:14
lardman|homecrashanddie: good, expecting in mid August13:14
crashanddieOh really? Didn't know about that13:14
crashanddieCongrats to both of you13:14
chem|stabout the same lat as pamplona^^13:15
crashanddieShe must be a big bubbling blob of hormones by now.13:15
lardman|homeWork has been hectic since the start of the year (i.e. 3months when you can tell people) so I've not had much of a chance to chat to anyone13:15
lardman|homethanks :)13:15
lardman|homeshe's not bad actually, stops work in a couple of weeks which is making her happy :)13:15
lardman|homeand we're moving house in a couple of weeks too, which will make both of us happy - more space13:16
crashanddieYour back however, isn't going to be happy13:16
chem|stcrashanddie: been there about 10 years ago or so ;)13:17
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chem|stlardman|home: the best of luck to you, gonna need it...13:18
lardman|homecrashanddie: true, though I may just get some people in to move it - washing machine + sofabed down two flights of stairs doesn't sound fun13:18
lardman|homethanks chem|st, I didn't think house moving was that bad ;)13:18
chem|stmoving twice is like once burned down13:19
crashanddielardman|home, did you get her the nerdy t-shirts? "Baby loading 75%" or "Gestation in progress. Stand clear"13:19
crashanddieOr for her last day at work "Do not argue with me. I am pregnant. And I own a chainsaw."13:19
crashanddieOr my personal favourite "No bellyrubbing. This is a basketball shoplifting operation"13:20
chem|stI like the "production site, keep clear" one ;)13:20
chem|stlmc if I find that13:21
gomiamchem|st: ¿asturiano? ;)13:21
crashanddiegomiam, no, ell és allemaney.13:22
gomiamcrashanddie: interesting. I wouldn't expect a German to like one of the most rainy areas in Spain. They usually want sun, sun, sun!13:24
crashanddieand white socks, on scarlet-red skin.13:25
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crashanddieIt's funny the british hate "ze ghermans" so much -- they dress identically when they go on holiday.13:25
lardman|homeWe don't hate the Germans13:26
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lardman|homeWe certainly like their cars!13:26
crashanddieWell, maybe not you, but you're pregnant, so you love everything, including ponies, unicorns and rainbows.13:26
lardman|homeah, ponies13:26
lardman|homewell I do speak German too and have lived there, so that might help13:27
lardman|homewhat's a German pony then? Pferdchen?13:27
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crashanddieProbably just pony13:28
chem|stgomiam: não, eu não sou asturiano13:29
lardman|homeIt's getting to be such a long time since I've actually spoken German day to day that after I wrote that I had a terrible thought that perhaps Pferd was something else and I was misremembering13:29
crashanddiethat sounds like portuguese13:30
gomiamchem|st: no need to write in Portuguese... unless you are. In any case, feel free to keep doing it :D13:30
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gomiamcrashanddie: Pony, Eselsbrücke, Bläschen or Spickzettel13:31
chem|stactualy I do not realy speak either language properly so I stay with english for now, ok?13:31
gomiamchem|st: good enough for me :)13:32
crashanddiegomiam, except Blaschen is "glass", and "spickzettel" is something related to writing stuff on your hands13:32
crashanddieSo Google Translate fail.13:32
lardman|homegomiam: Eselsbrücke, that is odd - that translates as cribbing13:32
gomiamcrashanddie: blame Google Translate XD13:32
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lardman|home is a better bet13:32
lardman|homeI wonder what a Pony Mixer is?13:33
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lardman|homesomething used in the manufacture of glue perhaps....13:33
crashanddielardman|home, actually, I definitely remember the eselsbrucke as being some kind of pun13:34
crashanddielardman|home, because donkeys are scared of water, they'd never cross a bridge, or something like that?13:34
chem|stlardman|home: put that on a shirt...13:34
lardman|homeIt's a rhyme or something like that to remember something or a mnemonic iirc13:34
lardman|homechem|st: :)13:35
lardman|homecrashanddie: I remember learning it in class at some point though, but not the reasoning anymore13:35
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crashanddie"Esel sind sehr wasserscheu und weigern sich beharrlich, auch kleinste Wasserläufe zu durchwaten, auch wenn sie diese physisch leicht bewältigen könnten („sturer Esel“), denn ein Esel kann durch die spiegelnde Wasseroberfläche nicht erkennen, wie tief der Bach ist. Daher baute man ihnen in Furten kleine Brücken, die sogenannten „Eselsbrücken“.13:36
crashanddieAnalog dazu ist eine sprichwörtliche Eselsbrücke ein Umweg oder besonderer Aufwand, der dennoch schneller – oder überhaupt erst – zum Ziel führt.13:36
crashanddieAußerdem geht ein Esel nicht über jede Brücke, denn er setzt seinen Huf nur auf jenen Untergrund, der ihm völlig geheuer erscheint. Er überquert nur eine Brücke, die ihm Sicherheit bietet. Somit steht die „Eselsbrücke“ auch für die Sicherheit."13:36
crashanddieBloody germans.13:36
lardman|homeanyone know whether a kernel tarball contains somewhere the version number?13:36
lardman|homecrashanddie: thanks13:37
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lardman|homeah, in the main Makefile fwiw13:37
crashanddieanyway, going for lunch13:38
chem|stAll people seem to need Data processing...13:38
chem|stmissing layer 8 in this pony...13:38
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jacekowskimece: i'm always online13:42
jacekowskiand opera is a lot better13:42
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chem|stBarbara Streisand hits again... the N9 teaser is now uploaded to youtube and other services all over the place after Nokia had the initial one removed...13:55
Trewasand that wasn't exactly what they were after?13:58
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chem|stthere is a "several times" missing in my streisand comment14:15
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BCMMlcuk: ping?14:19
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lcukhey BCMM14:21
RST38hmoo lcuk14:21
lcukhiya RST38h \o14:21
BCMMlcuk: last night you said you fixed your USB port with a bit of card; would you mind elaborating?14:21
SpeedEvil1He probably just wedged it into the slot to press it to the board.14:22
SpeedEvil1There he is.14:22
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BCMMi figured it was something like that, but i'd appreciate any advice on technique14:22
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SpeedEvilThe USB connector can fail in many ways.14:23
BCMMmine is slightly rotated14:23
SpeedEvilIt's not going to be one technique for all.14:23
BCMMbut there is still some semblance of a connection, since plugging it in to a PC gets an orange flashing light and plenty of worrying dmesg on the PC14:23
BCMMi know this is a stupid question, but which side is connected to the board?14:24
DocScrutinizerthere's one general rule: fix early, fix properly14:24
SpeedEvilIf I was trying a last ditch effort to get data off, I'd clamp the USB lead in something, and then press the n900 onto this, with the force exerted to clamp it onto the board, while remaining parallel.14:24
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: i was thinking nokia could fix it properly for me. i just want my photos off it before they wipe it14:25
lcukBCMM, charge battery, use ssh14:25
SpeedEvilOften it's not possible to fix USB properly - the pads have been ripped off.14:25
DocScrutinizerBCMM: or uSD14:25
BCMMlcuk: thanks14:26
BCMMlcuk, DocScrutinizer: empty battery, no external charger.14:26
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SpeedEvilI assume you have no random resistors around?14:26
BCMMthe objective is to put some energy in14:26
BCMMi have some random resistors, why?14:26
DocScrutinizerbest chance to get a new battery, and ask in shop to charge it for you14:26
BCMMSpeedEvil: are you proposing building a charger?14:27
SpeedEvilIf you find a suitable one - say 3-20 ohms - you can take a USB lead, cut it in half, use it as a power source, and directly charge the battery from that14:27
BCMMDocScrutinizer: oh, you mean buy a spare battery, and buy it charged?14:27
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: best "random resistor" is the one internal to Nokia chargers with 3.5mm barrel connector14:27
DocScrutinizerBCMM: yes14:28
BCMMDocScrutinizer: that's a pretty good idea; a spare would be useful anyway14:29
BCMMis it normal for a shop to charge a battery for you?14:29
SpeedEvilSome will test batteries for you.14:29
RST38hhow would a spare battery for a broken phone be useful? =)14:29
SpeedEvilHow much data do you need to move off?14:29
BCMMactually, i wonder if those unlocking shop-type places would just charge my battery for a couple of quid14:29
DocScrutinizernot really, but they will do if you by a rather expensive thing, no?14:30
BCMMSpeedEvil: a couple gig i think14:30
DocScrutinizers/ by / buy /14:30
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: not really, but they will do if you buy a rather expensive thing, no?14:30
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BCMMSpeedEvil: it'll use energy nicely, but i reckon it can be done over wifi on a single charge14:30
SpeedEvilBCMM: So I guess you need most of an hours life on ssh - so maybe a third to a half full.14:30
DocScrutinizernew batteries come charged to 40%..70% usually14:31
BCMMwhat do you reckon uses more power: faster transfer with rsync -z, or less CPU work without -z?14:31
BCMMSpeedEvil: yeah, taht's about right14:32
lardman|homeWhere are you BCMM? Post it to me and I'll charge it for you14:32
BCMMlardman|home: UK14:32
SpeedEvilBCMM: for photos - without14:32
BCMMSpeedEvil: is dng compressed?14:32
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BCMMbut that would put another postal roundtrip before this gets fixed, and getting a spare battery seems like a good idea14:32
BCMMlardman|home: thanks, though14:33
SpeedEvilI assume you have no local shops that might sell stuff like ?14:33
BCMMhow does one avoid getting a fake BL-5J? are the major retailers like carphone warehouse reliable?14:33
lardman|homeBCMM: np14:34
DocScrutinizerBCMM: take your original nokia battery with you when shopping, and cmpare closely14:34
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ccookeDocScrutinizer: How convincing are the fakes?14:34
DocScrutinizerallegedly even nokia has to take them apart to spot any diffs14:35
lardman|homeI got a fake with a new phone, box was probably unsealed - dodgy mobile phone companies14:35
ccookelardman|home: ... what the hell?14:36
lardman|hometook the whole lot back - battery life was crap, scratched the back and looked at Nokia webpage for S/N and it wasn't real, etc14:36
DocScrutinizerbut then some of the "fakes" are also electrically better than the original :-P14:36
ccookeDocScrutinizer: so, we just need to be able to spot *those* :-)14:36
lardman|homethen again if you buy a battery which isn't trying to be a fake, that might be a better bet?14:37
DocScrutinizeryou save like 80% and know what you get14:37
BCMMDocScrutinizer: but... but... i thought it was IMPOSSIBLE to fake a hologram!14:38
DocScrutinizerI however bought a "used one" in my next little turkish cellphone shopee and it cost like 8 bucks instead of 45 and was just fine14:38
BCMMlardman|home: yeah, so i was basically wondering who the non-dodgy companies are14:38
BCMMi mean obviously i'll avoid unlocking shops and market stalls, but can i trust carphone warehouse?14:39
BCMM"electrically better" in what respect?14:39
DocScrutinizermore mAh for ex14:39
lardman|homeI can't remember who I bought my dodgy phone from, but it wasn't Carphone Warehouse that's for sure - was one of the ones with a 4 in the title I imagine14:39
BCMMa chain?14:40
DocScrutinizerBCMM: don't worry, just make sure you got some ass to kick, when the battery is crap14:40
BCMMwhat does one call those shops that seem to be in every UK city14:41
BCMMthey're tiny, not part of chains, and advertise mobile phone credit, overseas phone cards and unlocking14:41
DocScrutinizerI call then turkish cellphone shopee14:41
DocScrutinizerdunno what yours are called14:42
DocScrutinizerusually those are like 40m^2 and run by a single turkish dude here in Germany14:43
DocScrutinizermost of them look like utter mess, and sell laserpointers, lighters, random crap as well14:44
RST38hdo they make profit?14:44
lardman|homethe ones here have stacks of cables and lots of those dangly flashy things shaped like bubbies or ponies or hearts that go off when a phone rings14:44
DocScrutinizerdunno how, but obviously the do14:44
DocScrutinizerthey won't tell anybody how they do, I guess14:44
BCMMDocScrutinizer: they just react to interferance from the GSM signal i guess14:45
DocScrutinizerthe "ring extenders"? yeah, indeed14:46
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DocScrutinizeryou can as well place your cellphone on top of a Logitech noisecube (aka amp speaker for computers), and they all will fail on 3G14:47
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BCMMdum da-dum dum da-dum dum da-dum.14:49
Macerwho was it here that said they were having problems with mail for exchange contacts and google?14:50
Macerit seems to be working like an absolute champ :) syncing is working well14:50
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MacerThe big shocker was the notes actually work15:09
Maceromg the n900 has become so awesome again15:09
Macerwelll..... became awesome at all :)15:10
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VenemoMacer, ?15:15
phrearchhm, i set a root password on my n900. wouldnt that be problematic on reboot?15:16
Venemophrearch, no.15:16
chem|stMacer: me and no never worked...15:16
phrearchVenemo: ah ok. pfew :)15:16
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chem|stphrearch: why should it?15:16
chem|styou get automagically logged in as "user"15:17
meceyou can also set a password for "user" and still not have problems15:17
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phrearchchem|st: just scared i mess up things beyond a point of return i guess15:18
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phrearchwonder if there are other browsers available for maemo that support websockets15:19
phrearchff4 is not for maemo yet?15:19
phrearchor something based on gecko15:19
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WizzupThere is fennec for maemo15:19
WizzupWhich is firefox 415:20
phrearchaha cool. ill give that a try15:20
Wizzupaka firefox mobile15:20
phrearchtear looks quite nice as well. not sure if that webkit supports websockets yet. guess not15:20
Venemofennec was extremely bad last time I tried, although I haven't looked at it in a while15:20
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DocScrutinizerphrearch:  # fix NOPASSWD for root / sudo gainroot15:22
phrearchah thanks15:22
phrearchhm, i installed this cool awoken theme, but it seems to have some issue with theme-customizer15:23
Maceri sure haven't changed my theme in a very long time15:28
chem|stMacer: matrix from the start on^^15:28
Macerdoesn't matrix change your startup splash?15:29
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Maceri wouldn't mind using a maemo splash instead of the lame nokia nazi hands15:29
Maceris it even possible to change the splash in m5?15:30
chem|styes, the build sequence from the teaser would be nice15:30
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Maceri should look15:32
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chem|stvalerio developed a bootscreen app, should be in devel15:33
chem|stwhen did valerio vanish btw15:33
chem|sthe maintains some apps but they are all stuck unfinished in devel15:33
Macerhow do i turn the scrolling windows thing off?15:33
Maceri liked the scaled ones better15:34
chem|styou are talking crypts to me15:34
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Macerwell.. with cssu .. when you tap the top left the windows scroll15:35
Macerbefore they were scaled15:35
Macerthe more windows the smaller they were..the scrolling crap sucks15:36
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chem|styou mean the window overview15:41
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BCMMMacer: there are various apps to change the boot video, but you can also just replace the video file from the shell15:50
BCMMmine scrolls "DON'T PANIC" in large, friendly letters15:50
Macerwhat does it use?15:53
Maceris it just an mp4?15:53
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: gimmegimmegimmegimme!!!!!15:53
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: the vid?15:53
BCMMDocScrutinizer: heh, lemme see if i have a copy that's not on the broken phone15:54
DocScrutinizerI'm the inventor of the "DONT PANIC" bootscreen of openmoko SHR15:54
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DocScrutinizerand I asked several times for that for N90015:54
BCMMit may have been you're idea15:54
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DocScrutinizerquite possibly15:54
BCMMi think somebody in this channel mentioned "don't panic"15:54
DocScrutinizerthat's been me15:55
BCMMDocScrutinizer: can you check the framerate of the default video?15:55
DocScrutinizerhmm, nfc how to do that15:55
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BCMMoh, mplayer will tell you in stdout if you play it15:56
BCMMyou see, i played about with a few versions with different refresh rates15:56
BCMMi mean, fps15:56
DocScrutinizerhmm, ok. I wonder if I got any mplayer installed though15:56
BCMMcan't remember which one came out smoothest15:56
DocScrutinizerwhere's that friggin video?15:57
BCMMMacer: mpeg-4 AVI15:57
BCMMhildon-welcome or something15:57
DocScrutinizerI'll find15:57
BCMMi mean /usr/share/hildon-welcome15:57
BCMMi think?15:57
BCMMoh wow15:58
BCMMmpeg-4 is really good at encoding frames where stuff just moves around15:58
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DocScrutinizer?? /opt/usr/share/hildon-welcome/media/Hands-v32-h264.avi ??15:59
chem|st[h264]  800x480  24bpp  24.000 fps  2332.0 kbps (284.7 kbyte/s)15:59
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: yeah, that's the one16:00
markinfoHi. is there a possibility to record telephone call?16:01
BCMMDocScrutinizer: you either overwrite that, or the new one in the same directory and edit a config file16:01
DocScrutinizerBCMM: no mplayer here :-/16:01
BCMMit's ok, i'm pretty sure this one is hte right one16:01
DocScrutinizerI know about the config file I think16:01
BCMMsource available, if you're interested16:01
BCMMsource is a gimp XCF for the text, and a bash script that generates frames with imagemagick and renders video with mencoder16:01
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BCMMit's green because i use a green theme but it's easy to fix that in gimp and re-render16:02
DocScrutinizerwow, that'd be interesting for educational purpose nevertheless16:03
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BCMMi wouldn't use it for that, it's pretty ugly bash16:04
DocScrutinizermeh, of course my laptop refuses to play avi "no demuxer found"16:04
DocScrutinizerI love ugly bash ;-)16:05
BCMMDocScrutinizer: what do you run on the laptop?16:05
Maceruse vlc16:05
chem|stBCMM: mmh I would like to do something alike with it showing a green black console, reading some starting progress, configuring launch silo controls, setting navigational control etc16:05
BCMMmplayer on phone and PC plays it fine16:05
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Maceryeah. i just looked at it bccm16:06
Macerdoes that just loop when it boots?16:06
DocScrutinizerthis is a somewhat OpenSuse-ish system here, that got updated since suse6.0, across unclean migration to kde4 and whatnot16:06
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DocScrutinizerat some point in time all the unclean codecs borked16:07
Macerif you use kde you should use kubuntu16:07
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DocScrutinizerno shuttleworth abominations on my machines16:07
DocScrutinizerI like *somewhat* clean linux16:08
BCMM"source" at
Macerive been using kubuntu for months.. it is great16:09
BCMMalthough if you do re-build it, you should probably adjust the FPS and ofps in the encoder script16:09
BCMMalso, it will use like 25MB of disk space to generage a 250KB video16:09
Macerbetter use the fileserver16:10
Macerthat video is like 5 secs16:10
markinfois there for Phone recording something easyier than this:  ?16:11
Maceri could imagine rendering an entire movie16:11
Macermarkinfo: if she is banging the mailman then recording your breakup conversation is not the way to go16:11
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Macermarkinfo: i remember there being an app in the repos that did it16:12
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BCMMMacer: like i said, it does it stupidly16:14
BCMMMacer: first it generates a PNG for each frame16:14
BCMMwhich is the 25MB16:14
Macermarkinfo: it says it right at the top of the page you posted :-P recaller16:14
BCMMthen you use mencoder to make an .avi out of hte pngs16:14
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MacerBCMM: isn't that how it is done regardless of how you do it?16:15
* Macer is reminded of film when people used to use that16:15
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BCMMwell, if it wasn't all done in bash, i'm sure you could render each frame in h264 as you generate it16:16
Macermost movies are filmed digitally nowadays arent they?16:16
BCMMinstead of store all the frames, then do it16:16
Macerthen grain filtered for that movie look?16:16
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chem|stMacer: nope analog16:17
Macerthey still use film?16:18
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chem|stMacer: yes for sure16:18
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BCMMi think most big-budget films have substantial parts that are digitally altered, at least16:18
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BCMMif only to avoid actually having to go to all of the locations shown16:19
chem|steven digitaly generated movies get mastered on film16:19
Maceri thought they used digital cameras16:19
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BCMMyes, i know you can green-screen without digital tech, but it's less convincing16:19
Macersince it saves a ton of money16:19
Macerfilm is expensive16:19
markinfohm - it means "recaller" records all calls?16:19
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chem|stmarkinfo: when you push the button!16:20
nid0or when you tell it to automatically16:21
markinfothanks - i will try.16:21
chem|stMacer: yes but digital has problems with lightning and stuff, bright daylight makes artifacts even on 10k€ CCDs16:21
chem|stwill screw hildon-home...16:22
phrearchopera mobile 11 has websockets16:22
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DocScrutinizerreminds me to give recaller another shot. been a while and some PR-versions back when it acted up on me, not stpping recording at end of call16:25
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DocScrutinizerand it been friggin awesome as long as it worked16:25
DocScrutinizerI've been temped to donate as soon as I looked at the garage page, but then it says "use about/donate in recaller" ;-P16:26
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DocScrutinizeralso it's a shame the most recent version hangs around in testing with 0 thumbs up16:27
DocScrutinizerhow is any sane devel going to maintain his pkg when it never leaves testing16:29
DocScrutinizeranother sneaky trick to suffocate maemo16:29
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* DocScrutinizer opts for a "official" wrapper framework to wrap each single testing app into a starter wrapper that opens the garage page of the package on app-close, and explains to user he used a testing-app and it's his obligation to either give it thumbs-up now, or thumbs-down plus proper criticism16:32
DocScrutinizercan't be hard to establish16:33
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DocScrutinizerjust x-fade (or whoever is in charge) had to implement that mandatory wrapper around all apps/pkgs in testing then16:34
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rm_workcan you not promote packages now without getting thumbs up or something? >_>16:34
DocScrutinizernever heard of that16:35
rm_workthen why does it matter?16:35
DocScrutinizeryou can promote devel->testing16:35
DocScrutinizernot testing->extras afaik16:35
rm_workah, who does that?16:35
DocScrutinizerthe system16:35
rm_worklast time I was doing it I could promote to extras myself16:35
DocScrutinizeron 10 thumbs-up16:35
rm_workso, what i just asked :P16:36
rm_workdoes anyone actually realize that? >_>16:36
DocScrutinizerwell, actually you (the devel) have to do that, but you have to gather 10 thumb-up for being able to do so16:36
rm_workwhat if you have 100 thumbs down and manage to get your 10th thumbs up, rofl16:37
DocScrutinizerthere's a rule for that, read about it16:37
rm_workman, they've changed a lot around here16:38
rm_worki guess to prevent random spam16:38
Venemo~seen MohammadAG16:39
infobotmohammadag is currently on #maemo (7h 5m 28s) #meego (7h 5m 28s). Has said a total of 3 messages. Is idling for 5h 59m 34s, last said: 'I thought you said you were a contractor'.16:39
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DocScrutinizerthere's like 10 days quarantine before you can promote to testing, and tehre's quite some conditions to be met to promote to extras16:39
DocScrutinizerthe odd thing is this applies for patches/new versions as well16:40
DocScrutinizerand there's not been any solution to that yet16:40
DocScrutinizerhowever an automatic popup of microb on right page, after you quit a testing app, should be easy to implement16:41
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DocScrutinizerthere are fine apps hanging around and collecting dust in testing like forever now16:42
DocScrutinizerin the end testing tends to be a showstopper16:42
edheldilbetter  would be to ASK for permission to start microb and send you to the page16:43
DocScrutinizeresp seeing how many borked-to-the-bones apps made it to extras16:43
DocScrutinizeredheldil: where's the difference?16:43
edheldilthe connection searching is pretty annoying if you are not already on wifi16:44
DocScrutinizerso you can deny connection when you're concerned about that16:45
DocScrutinizerI don't see the difference between the two requesters16:45
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infobotrumour has it, extras-testing is the maemo testing repository, or
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openstandardswhats the best way to back up my n900 onto my pc as i have to send it back to nokia16:59
DocScrutinizersftp, or even better rsync17:00
DocScrutinizersftp://ip-of-my-n900 in your favourite filebrowser is a raher convenient way17:01
SpeedEvilAlso 'backup'17:01
DocScrutinizernot to PC17:01
SpeedEvilThis will back up the calls and other databases in a way that can be easily resored17:01
SpeedEvilyou back those databases up to a file on mydocs, and you then copy across to PC17:01
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DocScrutinizerquite a partial backup nevertheless17:01
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DocScrutinizerI got a full copy of rootfs and /home fs on my PC, done via rsync (daily by a cronjob ;-D)17:02
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DocScrutinizeractually sftp://root@ip-of-my-n90017:09
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DocScrutinizeror - probably best way - use backupmenu17:11
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DocScrutinizerthen copy the tarball(s) to your PC17:11
DocScrutinizerhail robbiethe2st17:11
DocScrutinizererr 1st17:12
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ShadowJKbug 1223717:15
povbotBug Default WiFi power-saving mode 'Maximum' is unreliable and performs poorly17:15
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DocScrutinizererrr wut?17:15
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ShadowJKcssu madness17:15
DocScrutinizerisn't that related to the particular AP implemetation definitely?17:16
ShadowJKgood, it's ignored so far :)17:16
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DocScrutinizer"go fix the wifi-chip's firmware, fool!"17:17
DocScrutinizerINVALID - done17:17
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openstandardsSpeedEvil: what does backup.... backup?17:20
SpeedEvilIt backs up what it says it backs up.17:21
SpeedEvilCalls/text/databases, and application lists.17:21
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merlin1991and a few settings17:21
merlin1991I think xchat adds itself to the things to backup too17:22
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DocScrutinizersome apps definitely don't17:25
DocScrutinizersome tweaks to /etc/*random also not saved17:26
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: see my comment to 12237 :-P17:26
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ShadowJKI recently bought a wifi ap brand A and usb wireless adapter brand A. PSM didn't work :)17:29
ShadowJKbut it did work with N90017:29
markinfoI have installed a widget - but how to use that? How to start it?17:30
DocScrutinizerinstall it from desktop wrench17:31
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markinfoThese are this Thing that lies on the desktop?17:32
DocScrutinizeri.e. click homescreen, click gear, click menu, add widget17:32
DocScrutinizerclick "done" :-)17:33
markinfoDocScrutinizer, I have installed  ...but there is no such Widget - of this name. Is it necessary to restart?17:33
DocScrutinizeryou added the widget to your desktop? by procedure I toldya?17:34
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DocScrutinizeror do you say recaller is missing in the add-widget dropdown menu?17:35
frozen_deare there any problems with ssu and mmc?17:35
markinfothere is really "add widget" ...but there is only few of them like  Email, First steps .... the last is Place17:35
DocScrutinizerreboot then17:35
frozen_dedidnt solve the problem17:36
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DocScrutinizerrecaler should be there17:36
frozen_demmc cover state open17:36
DocScrutinizerfrozen_de: wasn't meant to you17:36
markinfoi will try restart.17:36
frozen_deoh :>17:36
DocScrutinizermmc cover state open possibly means you lost your stand magnet17:36
frozen_dei know, i tested another magnet of the fridge on the sensor17:37
DocScrutinizerthat's the problem then17:37
DocScrutinizercssu not involved17:37
frozen_deok damn, then i cant use the sd anymore in my n900 :(17:38
DocScrutinizercssu doesn't touch that subsystem domain17:38
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jogathis may not be a good channel to ask this but here goes anyway... do you know some simple vector editor for linux that could export Shapefile format?17:38
jogaI found a command line tool but it's a bit tedious17:39
DocScrutinizerprolly as good as #random channel, anyway no idea. Wait for other replies17:39
lardman ?17:40
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markinfoDocScrutinizer, after restart there is red Button on the desktop at once - it seems be this widget - was automatically after restart added.17:40
lardmanor is this a non-gis use for shapefiles?17:40
jogalardman, this is actually for a lego robot, a new version of lejos can read in the maps as Shapefiles17:40
lardmanoh cool17:41
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jogaso I just need to be able to put a few polygons or lines there17:41
joga(or do it myself)17:41
DocScrutinizermarkinfo: ok, then that's te explanation why it wasn't in list of widgets :-)17:41
lardmanI don't have any experience other than trying to get MATLAB to read shapefiles from the Ordnance Survey datasets17:41
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jogait's not that important really, but would be nice for testing17:41
openstandardswhere is backup stored afterwards17:42
DocScrutinizerof backup app?17:42
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lardmanjoga: is the format simple enough that you could write your own editor?17:43
lardmanI presume you're just planning to do ahead 2m, right 6m; rather than trying to do map-like scales?17:43
DocScrutinizereither somewhere in MyDocs, or on your uSD if you selected so and had one inserted17:44
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DocScrutinizerI'd guess17:46
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openstandardscheers.... need to send my n900 back to nokia the micro usb is..... :(17:49
ShadowJKI almost don't want to see a N900+1 :)17:49
jogalardman, yeah it's simple enough, it's just that I'd like it to be simple enough for the students to use too and I may not have time to code a mostly bug-free editor right now as I only have a few days ;)17:50
ShadowJK(because it'll take weeks and weeks to migrate to new os)17:50
lardmanah fair enough, didn't realise it was a student project17:50
lardmanin that case have them each design an editor too! ;)17:50
jogayes, that's an option ;)17:51
openstandardsShadowJK: i wouldn't mind seeing meego in action but i doubt the phone will be as good as the n90017:51
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jogaI'll just probably make an example with a hardcoded map and tell them where to go from there17:51
openstandardslike will the new one have infra red...17:51
openstandardsfm transmitter...17:51
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ShadowJKI suspect it'll be "MeeGo compatible" at best17:51
lardmanI don't care about the transmitter tbh, wasn't very useful for me, but a receiver is pretty important17:52
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openstandardslardman: trasmitter is good in work :)17:52
openstandardstune your work radio into your phone and bam17:52
lardmanwhy not just listen with headphones?17:52
ShadowJKI tried that radio app once and it was totally unusable :)17:53
openstandardsits a fanastic feature17:53
lardmanah, for all the office?17:53
VenemoI never used the FM receiver of the N900, but I did use the FM transmitter lots of times17:53
fluxnot many cars have line-in17:53
lardmandnla or whatever it's called then, join the 21st Century ;)17:53
ShadowJKfmtx has the advantage of lasting all workday on battery :)17:53
lardmanok, so I'm outvoted, no worries :)17:54
ShadowJKdnla is like 3-4 hours batterylife17:54
markinfoDocScrutinizer, It means all widget may be used only once?  And then disappears from this "add widget" menu?17:55
ShadowJKa2dp is a bit better.. but not much17:55
DocScrutinizermarkinfo: depends. In the beginning that's been the case. Afaik recaller been on of the first apps that shipped around that issue. Nowadays there's a documented way for hildon to have several identical widgets17:56
DocScrutinizerdepending on the particular widget and its config17:57
DocScrutinizerrecaller explicitly makes use of several widgets for diferent purposes17:58
DocScrutinizer(however wicked that approach might be)17:58
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DocScrutinizerqueen beecon for example lives on the prerequisite to get installed as widget multiple times17:59
DocScrutinizerother widgets explicitly don't want to see their twins around18:00
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DocScrutinizerI suspect recaller's installation being quite a bit hackerish to get around the early problems with this. So expect unusual behaviour until reboot18:02
arvutwill C# run on a N900?18:02
chem|stlardman: even fmtx handsfree radiotransmit works flawless18:02
ShadowJKi think I saw someone in here yesterday with a mono port18:02
chem|starvut: what is C#18:03
lardmanchem|st: does it now autoscan for channels with no other signals?18:03
DocScrutinizerMO - NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!18:03
arvutin other words, is there a framework for C# available for maemo5?18:03
ShadowJKand mono runs C# so..18:03
chem|stlardman: nope18:03
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Venemoarvut, you can run .NET executables with Mono, yes.18:03
arvutmono is available for maemo5 then? cool =)18:03
lardmanchem|st: that's the problem I had, and it was annoying needing to work out exactly which channel to tune to to avoid that18:03
DocScrutinizerarvut: but maemo isn't available for mono ;-P18:04
arvutI've decided to learn some C#, C++ got too heavy, will continue with it later18:04
chem|stlardman: but that would need an attached cable so very useful for me with never having a headset with me ever! o_O18:04
arvutDocScrutinizer: can you elaborate on that please?18:04
lardmanchem|st: no, the fm transmitter hw has a basic tuner too for afaict finding quiet channels, would be interesting to get that working from a purely scientific point of view18:05
DocScrutinizerarvut: on a less funny word: do whatever you like on your device, but prepare to see thumbs-down for various reasons when you try to get any mono app into extras18:05
lardmanchem|st: I work in a shared office, so I always use headphones, so it's not a big thing for me (plus I can store far more music on my external HDD than my N900)18:05
chem|stlardman: there was an approach BUT without attached headset useless18:05
lardmanchem|st: ah I see what you mean, I wonder which tuner that was trying to use then, interesting18:06
chem|stlardman: my carradio has usb but doesn't like my 1TB hdd...18:06
DocScrutinizerarvut: in other words, I think mono is a broken thing on any linux machine18:06
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lardmanI'm not too fussed by music in the car18:06
arvutDocScrutinizer: how come?18:07
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DocScrutinizerbad experience with all those mono based random crap18:07
chem|stlardman: yeah it actually would work if the reciever would be able to catch even weak signals18:07
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: lardman: exactly18:08
arvutDocScrutinizer: might stick to windows for the moment but would be cool to know if I could in the future write C# programs for this lovely phone :P18:08
chem|stI mean without antenna-style-headset tightened right through my car18:08
lardmanI wonder how that transmitter chipset's receiver is designed to work then, whether it actually comes with an aerial or not wrapped around inside - though that might not be very efficient18:08
crashanddieIf you want to laugh, you may want to have a look at that video I posted18:08
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DocScrutinizerarvut: why not switch to c++, objective c, or plain c instead?18:09
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lardmancrashanddie: lol18:10
lardmanhmm, and I thought insurance was boring:
arvutDocScrutinizer: I will, one day.. for now I'll study some C#. did get a bit tired of C++ and havent done C in a loong time. C# feels somewhat fresh18:10
chem|stlardman: + the transmitter denies to work with headset connected, would need a hack as the device does not know about the dimming of the antenna (private radio station...)18:10
kerioDocScrutinizer: ew c++18:10
arvutC++ is a bit overwhelming for sure18:11
DocScrutinizerkerio: eew C#18:11
ShadowJKthere's that replacement fmtxd that allows fmtx with cables connected18:11
arvutbut I still love it18:11
kerioDocScrutinizer: yeah, that's almost even worse18:11
chem|stShadowJK: does it really work though?18:11
ShadowJKhaven't tried it18:11
chem|stneeds at least some heavier tweak right_18:11
keriobut the horribleness of the language beats the horribleness of the associated politics18:11
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DocScrutinizeris reported to work18:12
lardmanchem|st: I was thinking about using the transmitter chipset's receiver18:12
chem|stahhh ^^18:12
DocScrutinizerlardman: the antenna of FMTX is really poor18:12
chem|stlardman: you won't get signal on bands that will interfear with your car radio18:13
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lardmanso it's not good enough to pick up a signal on things that would interfere?18:13
DocScrutinizerthis concept of integrated fmrx for finding chan by FMTX chip could work if they cared more about a proper antenna, but that is difficult for ambedded18:13
lardmanok, well that's a reason for not using it then :)18:13
ShadowJKEven without the typical language vs another language issues... Running several frameworks/runtimes on a limited RAM system makes for sluggishness. I killed all python widgets and responsiveness improved, jitter/stutter was reduced. The same applies probably to QT, ruby, perl, java, and whatever else is popular these days...18:13
chem|stShadowJK: +118:14
ShadowJKso if the phone was primarily built on Mono I'd probably say it'd make more sense to use Mono C# as that imposes the least additional burden on ram18:14
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ++18:15
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, has anyone tried using fmtx rx for channel hopping? I've been meaning to do it but never had time :)18:15
dangergrrlmono is still msft crap18:15
chem|stlardman: as soon as I get another device I will torcher it to do some hardware changes...18:15
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: no decent reports here on that, only hearsay18:15
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* ShadowJK wondrs if you can bang fmtx with i2c-tools from userspace18:16
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kerioyou can bang fmtx with v4l-ctl18:16
DocScrutinizerplus of course scientific evaluation of the theoretical case18:16
ShadowJKI'd want to make a poor man's spectrum analyzer at around 100MHz, to find leaking ethernet and stuff18:16
ShadowJKkerio, iirc the drivers don't expose the "find quietest channel and switch to it" feature?18:17
keriothere's something like that? :o18:17
chem|stShadowJK: that needs some hal...18:17
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SpeedEvilI don't recall that.18:18
chem|stlmc if I have a spare one to mount with a 3.5 jack...18:18
SpeedEvilI do remember a 'measure power on given channel'18:18
DocScrutinizerwell pals, my suggestion is a completely different one anyway: find a silent freq on your car radio, then let N900 figure out the right freq to TX, by sending a pilot and feedback via mic18:18
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chem|stSpeedEvil: you wont se pulses in ranges of ns18:19
DocScrutinizerway better usability, cleaner concept18:19
ShadowJKiirc I read the kernel driver and it didn't implement "measure power on given channel" or "find free channel" features, which the hardware supports18:19
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chem|stthe hardware itself has those features?18:19
chem|stthen we need new drivers...18:20
DocScrutinizerI promised to come up with a RFC how to do that long time ago here in this chan, but basically this one sentence above has it all18:20
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ShadowJKthe intent has probably been that fmtx can find quietest frequenceis independently, and your receiver radio automatically follows it with RDS18:20
chem|stDocScrutinizer: start coding then...18:21
DocScrutinizermeh, the chip manuf had no particular original intention18:21
chem|stDocScrutinizer: sounds like a good idea to me18:21
DocScrutinizerchem|st: I've been a coder when I was young. Now I'm senior system architect and project lead usually18:22
chem|stget someone to code then, right? ;)18:23
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chem|stwhere is MohammadAG18:23
Venemoscientists have figured out the reason for the behaviour of apple's fanboys.
Venemo~seen MohammadAG18:23
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infobotmohammadag is currently on #maemo (8h 49m 55s) #meego (8h 49m 55s). Has said a total of 3 messages. Is idling for 7h 44m 1s, last said: 'I thought you said you were a contractor'.18:23
* merlin1991 propses an addition to the topic: "need some code done? ping MohammadAG"18:24
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: whatever, I guess we could make this fly with a shellscript accessing some /sys/* and exploiting sox or whatever18:27
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DocScrutinizerif only there was some decent cmdline tool for messing with pukeaudio. All I know is playsound, nothing to select a particular output (earpiece, speakers...) or even to record and select mic18:29
lardmanI had also planned to write the follow quietest channel, but as with other people more pressing matters (mBarcode, day job) intruded on my masterplan18:33
lardmanplus as I said I'm not that fussed to listen to music in the car, so not really a major factor there18:33
lardmanhas there been anything interesting related to the "n950" in the kernel patches recently? Anything new for example?18:36
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ShadowJKMy initial reaction whenever I've accidentally stumbled upon people faffing about with the kernel, has been to hide my face with my hand18:37
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VenemoShadowJK, aka. facepalm?18:44
lardmanbecause that way they can't see you hwy ShadowJK ? ;)18:44
lardmanoh, that :)18:44
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lardmantime for home18:45
lardmancatch you chaps tomorrow18:45
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Venemobb lardman18:45
Venemobtw, what is the "N950"?18:45
andre__upcoming new hardware, according to the interwebs.18:46
Venemoandre__, it has been only rumour, last time I heard of it18:46
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nid0well, there's a leaked nokia promo video out now that nokia had pulled18:47
Venemonid0, link pls?18:47
nid0no-one seems certain whether itll be named n950 or n9 though18:47
andre__a "leaked nokia promo video" without any product name shown in the video? well, if people want to believe they do.... :)18:48
GAN900andre__, did you see it?18:49
nid0well, its a video of a device clearly not running symbian or wp7, in a design matching every other piece of info about the n9/n95018:49
VenemoGAN900, it is in the linked site18:49
Venemoand it looks quite un-promising, compared to the N9018:49
Venemoand it looks quite un-promising, compared to the N90018:49
GAN900There are also FCC docs.18:50
petterilooked promising to me18:50
* GAN900 too18:50
andre__GAN900, yes, saw it once18:50
Venemono camera lens cove18:50
nid0ditto, except the keyboard18:50
GAN900andre__, looks pretty authentic to me. :P18:50
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* Arkenoi trolled on dev days ok. "We are especially happy about the sense of confidence Nokia provides to developer community -- Me: Tell that to Meego developers, it makes fun!"18:50
Venemono camera lens cover, iphone-looking icons, etc.18:50
andre__GAN900, might be real, might not be real. still it's a little bit fishy to not have any product name in there18:50
Venemothe only thing looking good on it is the keyboard.18:50
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GAN900andre__, matches the FCC docs pretty closely.18:51
GAN900UI shots were fairly clearly real.18:51
GAN900Venemo, Symbian Anna icons.18:51
VenemoGAN900, whatever. they look awful18:51
* GAN900 shrugs18:52
GAN900Icons can be changed.18:52
andre__GAN900, ah, nice to know, then I can take that video a lit bit more serious :)18:52
GAN900andre__, skeptical old me believes that's legit.18:52
GAN900FCC confidentiality ends middle of June.18:52
GAN900So we'll know within a month.18:53
infobotwell, fcc is (Federal Communications Commission) These are the people in the government who decide what's legal and illegal to broadcast, including what frequencies are allowed to be used by whom.18:53
Venemo"in the government" -> which government?18:53
GAN900(if Federal shouldn't give it away)18:53
Venemoyeah, "Federal". sure.18:54
nid0there are lots of federal governments18:54
Venemoisn't there a similar entity in the EU?18:54
nid0it tends to only be americans to think theirs is the only one18:54
Venemonid0 ++18:54
GAN900nid0, sure, but nor a lot of agencies calling themselves "Federal" elsewhere.18:54
GAN900It tends to be Europeans who dish out the American hate to makes themselves feel better.18:55
DocScrutinizerhonestly, modulo the FCC stuff, what's new on that N9?? beyond what we know since last August?18:55
VenemoGAN900, I do not have any hate for Americans18:55
VenemoDocScrutinizer, nothing solid18:55
GAN900(Also: Canadians, because they're different than Americans "we swear!")18:56
DocScrutinizernothing at all18:56
GAN9006-band cellular18:56
DocScrutinizerthat's FCC18:56
DocScrutinizerthat's FCC18:56
GAN900Oh, right.18:56
* GAN900 's reading comprehension is low.18:56
GAN900They're using the Symbian Anna look!18:56
GAN900Ovi Maps is bundled.18:57
Venemowtf is "Symbian Anna" anyway? and why should we care about it?18:57
GAN900Venema PR2 for Symbian^318:57
DocScrutinizergot this link since err, 9 months now:
nid0DocScrutinizer: someone on tmo did some semibullshit pixel guesswork to assume a 1280x720 screen...18:57
nid0that's new18:57
GAN900We shouldn't, that's just the theme they're borrowing.18:57
GAN900It's 16:9 856x480 (or whatever)18:58
DocScrutinizerhow boring18:58
* DocScrutinizer feels like this is tmo18:59
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VenemoDocScrutinizer ++18:59
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nid0the video does confirm AF rather than edof on the camera, afaik that wasnt mentioned in the fcc info19:01
merlin1991raise new DocScrutinizerDoesntApproveException19:01
DocScrutinizerin fact I'm still pondering if that "promo" is a mockup from that link I posted, plus random other shit19:02
GAN900It's not19:02
GAN900Look at the UI shots19:02
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DocScrutinizerquite probably it's *some* leaked promo for *some* Nokia product19:03
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DocScrutinizermaybe even a random PoC for a new PR strategy, unrelated to the particular device used19:04
GAN900Well, it's not WP7, and it's not Symbian19:04
GAN900So our options are limited19:04
GAN900We'll know by June19:04
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DocScrutinizernot WP7? don't they have mobile powerpoint or sth like that?19:06
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nid0if it is then theyve gone a long way out of their way to make a maemo/meego style mockup19:07
DocScrutinizerthat's definitely not a maemo lookalike19:08
nid0the calendar is incredibly similar looking to fremantle, as is the task switcher19:08
DocScrutinizerand what exactly *is* meego style ;-D19:08
nid0and the status bar is identical to meego's19:08
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DocScrutinizerohmy, so you really can see some interim version of meego handset UX there. Incredible, but what does that tell us about *the device*19:09
DocScrutinizerlook, I've seen youtube videos of N900 running OSX19:10
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DocScrutinizerand I've seen photoshoped "N900 previews" that clearly show a N810 in black19:13
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DocScrutinizerI don't give a flying F* about that "leaked trailer"19:13
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DocScrutinizerfor all I can tell it's a null-info about anything, and might even be a hoax19:15
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DocScrutinizerjust like plan-b19:16
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, fair enough, then wait until the confidentiality expires.19:21
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DocScrutinizerwill this disclose more *interesting* details?19:23
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DocScrutinizer(not trolling)19:23
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DocScrutinizerthe FCC actually gave some good hints, as for example it seems they got a new modem chipset19:24
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, actual device photos (external and internal) and the user manual.19:24
GeneralAntillesIt also assume that Nokia will have something meaningful to say about the device before the confidentiality expires.19:24
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DocScrutinizerI'm still afraid it's running harmattan bastard and will further contribute to maemo suffocation, while not giving meego-arm any benefit whatsoever19:26
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GeneralAntillesIt probably is.19:27
DocScrutinizeryet another fuckedup DOA OS19:27
DocScrutinizerthis time *really* DOA19:28
DocScrutinizerthe poisoned gift to the FOSS community19:28
DocScrutinizerand quite likely with blobs for all core apps once again19:29
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nid0dead on arrival19:32
edheldilah, ty. The more it is dead, the less damage it causes :)19:33
VenemoDocScrutinizer, we really don't know anything new about hw features at all.19:34
VenemoDocScrutinizer, IMO, there probably will not be any improvement over the N90019:34
edheldilmetal frame, or is it just plastics again?19:35
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BCMMi have limited battery life, no way to recharge, and want to recover data over wifi before it runs out of energy. what can i do to prolong battery life?19:57
BCMM(the SIM is out)19:57
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: well, it just means we'll get started that much sooner on getting real MeeGo up and running.20:03
slonopotamusyou can turn it off20:03
GeneralAntillesBut at least we'll have a slightly less shitty kernel to work with.20:04
GeneralAntillesBCMM, order yourself one of those battery chargers off eBay.20:04
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BCMMi took it to a shop where they charged it for a pound20:04
BCMMit came back only very slightly charged, though20:04
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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: who's supposed to buy a device with a fsckdup OS that's not backward compatible to N900, and not forward compatible to real meego?20:08
* GeneralAntilles shrugs.20:08
GeneralAntillesI probably will.20:08
GeneralAntillesBecause it's the only option I've got left right now.20:08
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: probably nobody who's interested in a FOSS device20:08
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: why not get an iPhone then?20:09
GeneralAntillesBecause it's a useless piece of shit that isn't open at all?20:10
GeneralAntillesAt least with the Nokia you can (probably) load your own OS.20:10
GeneralAntillesAt least they (were) trying to forward open source (in their own fucked up way).20:10
DocScrutinizerduh, it's as open as that harmattan bastard ever will be20:11
GeneralAntillesAt least there's some possibility of running proper MeeGo in the future.20:11
Venemoso what?20:11
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, bullshit.20:11
GeneralAntillesFull stop bullshit.20:11
GeneralAntillesIs there really anything open source on the iPhone? :)20:11
Venemoit will probably be capable of running the "real" meego. whether "real" meego will be worth running at all remains to be seen.20:11
DocScrutinizerand when this will happen, as well20:12
slonopotamusVenemo: :)20:12
Venemoeven the N900 can run meego, so why the N9(50?) wouldn't20:12
DocScrutinizerVenemo: exactly, so why the N9(50?)?20:12
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: better, stronger, faster?20:13
DocScrutinizeron running the possibly 7 existing apps, yeah20:13
GeneralAntillesSame reason I'd rather have an i7 over a Core Duo.20:13
* GeneralAntilles shrugs.20:13
GeneralAntillesDay-to-day I use exactly 4 applications.20:14
GeneralAntilles(if you don't count SMS/phone as an application)20:14
DocScrutinizerso get an iphone ;-P20:14
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: see my point above20:15
GeneralAntillesthe iPhone is painful to use.20:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer, what do you mean, "7 existing apps"?20:15
DocScrutinizerVenemo: which app do you know of that's fit for harmattan bastard?20:16
VenemoDocScrutinizer, I must assume that puzzle-master is one of the 7, so which ones are the other 6?20:16
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GeneralAntillesOvi Maps will probably be better.20:17
DocScrutinizerVenemo: I must assume then that you're one of those that jump off the maemo ship to develop for a stillborn platform called harmattan meego in the future?20:17
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DocScrutinizerhonestly I'd guess you better choose real meego then, if you're planning to leave maemo20:19
VenemoDocScrutinizer, you assume wrong.20:19
VenemoDocScrutinizer, however, Qt works on Harmattan equally as well as on other platforms.20:19
VenemoI do not intend to leave Maemo, nor do I intend to buy the new device :)20:20
DocScrutinizerof course, especially the sensor shit, for e.g puzzlemaster's autosliding the tiles option20:20
VenemoDocScrutinizer, that shit will probably work better on Harmattan than on MeeGo20:20
DocScrutinizermaybe, but who knows20:21
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, at least we don't know if harmattan insists on "upstream" as much as meego. let's hope not.20:21
DocScrutinizerbut I actually don't care, unless Nokia planned to roll out harmattan as a true upgrade to maemo-*, on all devices (well at least on those running fremantle right now)20:22
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DocScrutinizeror it's 100% compatible to either fremantle or true meego - I don't see either20:23
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DocScrutinizerI'm just not interested in another flavour of "linux" contaminated with blobs for core apps, locked to exactly one device to run on, guaranteed to get no updates, and with no migration path to anything more sane, whatever that might be in the end20:26
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GeneralAntillesThey need to invent nano-tech self-cleaning glasess.20:27
DocScrutinizeraaah, did I mention "not API compatible to anything else"?20:27
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DocScrutinizeryou could as well go for bada, at least this one seems to get support and new devices in the future - well, it's at very least not yet declared to never get any20:29
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ShadowJKbada looks more like a "featurephone" thing though20:30
DocScrutinizerI don't care what it looks like, as I'm sure it doesn't look like anything I'd want to use20:31
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DocScrutinizerand I honestly don't get GeneralAntilles' point about FOSS in harmattan, as long as we don't know if it's maybe less FOSS than even maemo20:32
* GeneralAntilles shrugs.20:32
GeneralAntillesClearly this isn't worth arguing about until something is announced.20:32
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DocScrutinizermy general objection stands it've been way more sane to keep harmattan a proper upgrade to fremantle, than to cripple it to fubar and uselessness by trying to make it meegoish20:35
DocScrutinizermeego harmattan -W! T! F!20:36
GeneralAntillesIf only webOS weren't bullshit and portrait.20:36
DocScrutinizeruse SHR ;-D20:37
DocScrutinizeriirc pre been 2nd device after FR for SHR to get ported to20:37
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Arkenoibtw Nokia guys just confirmed today all Symbian devices will be 640x350 (maybe less, but not more) until Symbian dies out20:38
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, yeah, I agree with you20:39
VenemoDocScrutinizer, this is why I said, I do not intend to leave Maemo, nor do I intend to buy the new device :)20:40
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Arkenoierr, 640x36020:44
DocScrutinizerdoesn't make THAT much of a diff ;-)20:44
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SpeedEvilWell - I disagree.20:47
SpeedEvilIf the size limit is rising at the rate of almost 2 pixels a minute, that's soon going to be compelling.20:48
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VenemoArkenoi, they just confirmed why symbian is, and will be forever, crap21:02
* SpeedEvil rather disagrees.21:03
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SpeedEvil(if it's resokution)21:03
SpeedEvilI question most users ability to notice if you use 640*350, or 1280*700 downsampled.21:04
derfDepends on what you're downsampling, and how.21:05
VenemoSpeedEvil, I'm not referring to just the resolution21:05
Venemorather the philosophy of symbian devices.21:05
Venemothat is, all since q3 200721:06
SpeedEvilYou mean nihilism?21:06
VenemoI mean the complete lack of any ability or willingness to evolve21:06
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Venemothey had a very nice symbian device in 2007, the N95. all of their non-touchscreen phones since then are running the same system21:07
Venemoin fact, most of them were just N95 clones with a different exterior look21:08
Venemoand they are not letting go of some concepts of their non-touch UI that are useless on touchscreens21:09
Venemoat the release of Fremantle, I was hoping that they'll adapt it to all their new devices, but they haven't, despite the fact that it is vastly superior to anything that Symbian could possibly provide21:10
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Venemonow they release "symbian anna" whose greatest "feature" is redesigned (crappier-looking) icons.21:11
Venemodon't you see the irony?21:11
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* RST38h is tired of seeing the irony in whatever Nokia is doing21:14
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: hehe21:21
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* SpeedEvil wonders when we'll start seeing metallic glass cellphone cases.21:23
SpeedEvil(made of metal - not glass - it's amorphous metal)21:23
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Arkenoithey say anna has some integrated IM. poorly integrated, they admit it21:31
Arkenoiand it is already available for beta testers, i am going to try :-)21:31
SpeedEvilSo, you're pro anna?21:32
Arkenoinope, i am just curious, nokia provided me free e7 so i feel obliged to try :-)21:32
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SpeedEvil'Ok - I installed meego on it' - what now?21:33
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Arkenoii wish i could!21:34
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Macerfor the love of god is tyere a way to go back to the older window switching?21:37
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RST38hArkanoid: Where is Anna?21:40
RST38hArkanoid: I wanna try too, after all the trouble...21:40
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ArkenoiRST38h, they say you may come to Nokia office and ask for it. Elena Orlova promised me to provide further details and contacts.21:44
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DocScrutinizerMacer: uh?22:00
RST38hArkenoi: Ah, interesting22:00
DocScrutinizerI'm off (@ pub looking for Annas)22:01
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Macerfaster application manager should be the default22:27
MohammadAGno, it should not22:29
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DocScrutinizer51definitely fapman been right choice - for the name22:38
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DocScrutinizer51for all I know HAM is open, so patch it to do whatever you like, but don't implement any fapman as an excuse to do nasty thing / forget about mandatory things that HAM takes care of22:46
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MohammadAGmerlin1991, git reset --hard = return to latest commit right?22:47
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DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: srewed up? ;-)22:49
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, nah, just making sure :P22:50
cehtehMohammadAG: yes, kindof22:50
cehteh(better use 'git stash' for extra safety)22:52
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DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: what do you think of a generic applet (kinda queenbeecon is for widgets)?22:55
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, didn't get that :/22:56
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DocScrutinizer51a applet that doesn't ask hal about battery status or sth whatever, instead it has a config file where you till it about menu button name, which command to execute on buttonclick, you tell which cmd to call for getting name of png to display, and (dunno) you tell about how often to update22:59
DocScrutinizer51hmm, how often does a usual applet update?23:00
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DocScrutinizer51is it using an internal sleep/wait/whatever, or is it a thread called by HD every now and then?23:01
DocScrutinizer51i.e. must main() quit as fast as possibly, or virtually never?23:02
cehtehwhy polling? there are enough events you can listen for, at worst just menu activate23:03
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DocScrutinizer51sure, that's why I ask23:03
DocScrutinizer51never suggested polling, just asking if maybe HD does23:04
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Sicelo_ /sb claw23:09
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, a homescreen applet is just a window/widget with a special flag23:15
MohammadAGit can get a signal whenever the desktop is switched to23:15
DocScrutinizer51we're  talking bout bat-applet + friends, in systray?23:16
MohammadAGoh, you meant hildon-status-menu plugins?23:17
MohammadAGthey're just GtkWidgets23:17
DocScrutinizer51mhm, whatever that means23:17
MohammadAGyou can have any GtkWidget in there23:18
MohammadAGa slider, a button, a label etc23:18
DocScrutinizer51walking, bbiab23:18
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: that's for the menu, right, forgot about that (let's assume it's all just buttons for now). I'm talking bout the mini-ison in status area aka systray, where the animated battery icon lives, and the wifi ison that doesn't show signal strength23:23
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DocScrutinizer(what's an ison?? :-o)23:24
DocScrutinizerI'm thinking of some code that has *nothing* hardcoded, but has a config file to make it do meaningful things. Simplest case: show up / hide23:25
jacekowskiany interpretable language23:26
jacekowskiand you can consider script file to be a config file23:26
DocScrutinizeryou'd give that generic applet a cmdline "/opt/my/whichicon" that either returns "/share/icons/myfoo.png" or "", and accordingly there's either myfoo icon or nuttin in systray23:27
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DocScrutinizerfor battery icon the similar /opt/my/whichbat" would return a pointer to a battery status icon acccording to charge state of battery23:28
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MohammadAG51interpreted vs compiled doesn't matter in this case23:28
MohammadAG51you need to killall or watch the config file23:29
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: that's niche considerations. Usual applets don't watch config file or do killalls - battery icon doesn't, signal-strength icon doesn't23:30
MohammadAG51actually I think the USB applet uses ionotify23:31
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DocScrutinizerI'm simply suggesting to replace the hardcoded inotify/hal-ipc/sbud-listening/whatever logic, by a simple system()23:32
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MohammadAG51inotify would work well actually23:32
MohammadAG51it only fails on /sys and /proc, which is expected23:33
DocScrutinizeryes, but you miss the point23:33
MohammadAG51you want queen beacon-like stuff in hildon-status-menu23:33
MohammadAG51wasn't there an applet for that btw23:34
MohammadAG51quick-launch I think23:34
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DocScrutinizerlet's think of something silly: a lux-meter showing brightness as a bar similar to load applet cpu load - you'd get script that does read the /sys/*/lux, decides which icon is the right one for ambient lux value, and do "echo $righticon; exit". The applet would call and display the icon according to output of that script23:37
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DocScrutinizerrsp display nuttin if the script outputs null string23:40
MohammadAG51hmm, and what's the refresh timeout?23:40
DocScrutinizerthat's been my question: how is refresh timeout handled for applets?23:41
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MohammadAG51g_timeout_add afaik23:42
DocScrutinizerdoes the applet code pass a microseconds value back to H-D(?), or is there a sort of wait()/usleep()/whatever inside the code itself23:42
MohammadAG51aka polls23:42
DocScrutinizerok, so you pass a timeout value to $randomplace23:42
MohammadAG51a timer that keeps calling a callback23:42
MohammadAG51normal glib actually, not h-d related23:42
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DocScrutinizerinside applet code?23:43
MohammadAG51sec, lemme kill my PC's xchat connection and bring up my bouncer23:43
MohammadAG51yeah, it's normal C/Gtk23:43
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DocScrutinizerok, so let's define it as follows: the applet calls the script, and the script does a sleep 60, then returns the pointer string to the icon to display. The applet immediately calls the script again23:45
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DocScrutinizerso the timer and callback function gets completely replaced by a endless loop calling {icon=system("; display(icon);}23:48
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DocScrutinizer(pseudocode! you know better than me how to do it right)23:49
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: back?23:49
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MohammadAGthe timer keeps calling the callback (typically this callback returns a gboolean), when it returns false the loop is broken23:52
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: the applet sleeping would happen completely inside system(), inside the called script, by either a sleep 60, or a read<namedpipe, or whatever23:52
DocScrutinizerok, so let's define it as follows: the applet calls the script, and the script does a sleep 60, then returns the pointer string to the icon to display. The applet immediately calls the script again23:52
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DocScrutinizerso the timer and callback function gets completely replaced by a endless loop calling {icon=system("; display(icon);}23:52
DocScrutinizer(pseudocode! you know better than me how to do it right)23:53
javispedroyou should not block in an applet23:53
DocScrutinizerthat's been my question :-)23:53
DocScrutinizerok, callback. I see, I see23:53
DocScrutinizerlemme think about it23:53
MohammadAGjust use a glib timer of 60s23:54
MohammadAGthe script would ideally return immediately23:54
MohammadAGone question, why not read a config rather than a script?23:54
MohammadAGyou're polling both ways23:55
DocScrutinizerhmm, fair enough, you initialize the applet with a config file that has the name of the script, and the timer milliseconds23:55
MohammadAGno, I meant why not have a config file with the image path23:56
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DocScrutinizer(read config) you wouldn't know when the applet's asking for new info to display. So you'd have to do another rather fast poll in a daemon, to keep the config up to date23:56
MohammadAGoh nvm23:56
MohammadAGyou want signal strength23:56
MohammadAGbtw, if this is only for wifi signal strength use qwerty12's applet23:56
* javispedro reads backlog23:57
DocScrutinizerit's better the applet calls some executable code that gathers the info in realtime23:57
javispedroDocScrutinizer: your config file could have a list of files to read() (and potentially block on those reads)23:57
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: nah, it's a generic thing that's zillion times more useful than a hardcoded wifi-signal applet23:57
javispedro(your code would not block on read() but would submit the fds to the glib select() call)23:58
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I don't want to watch files. I want to act on stdout of arbitrary code to execute23:58
javispedrobut the problem is when to run that executable then?23:59
DocScrutinizereach time the timer of applet expires23:59
javispedrowhich would be hardcoded? then there's no problem :D23:59

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