IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-03-26

hawaii_	Apart from timing a process kill and spawning a separate one at an rxvt - how else can I do it?	00:00
hawaii_	C'mon. There are 400 of you punks. Somebody tell me.	00:03
SpeedEvil	gdb?	00:03
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messerting	Sorry, but I haven't paid attention the last several weeks: Where do I find up to date info about the future of Maemo/Meego after the Nokia/Microsoft (devastating) news?	00:11
hawaii_	Heh.	00:11
SpeedEvil	Nokia left meego - mostly	00:12
SpeedEvil	So intel are now going it alone, and have made vastr changes to meego, ripping out mostr of the nokia stuff.	00:12
messerting	So, will Intel come to the rescue...?	00:12
messerting	ok	00:12
SpeedEvil	There is a meego product upcoming from nokia this year, it's a phone, and little more is known about it.	00:12
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messerting	Yeah, not much advertised	00:13
SpeedEvil	Intel will not be releasing for rthe n900 if that's what you mean.	00:13
messerting	Well, I've got a N900, but never expected Meego to run on it (for real)	00:14
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messerting	But it would be nice to know if the platform will survive	00:14
SpeedEvil	What platform?	00:15
hawaii_	I need printed output, SpeedEvil. gdb won't really provide the easy info after attaching.	00:15
messerting	I really (really really) don't want to have to choose from iPhone/Apple WinPhone/Microsoft	00:15
SpeedEvil	If you mean maemo - there is no future plans for more maemo phones.	00:15
messerting	"platform" is maybe the wrong word. I mean a phone running Linux/Qt with some nice apps	00:16
SpeedEvil	meego - there is one plan for a meego-related phone fromnokia this year.	00:16
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SpeedEvil	Then it's unclear what will happen.	00:16
hawaii_	So move to WebOS.	00:16
messerting	ok. sad.	00:16
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messerting	WebOS: "a proprietary mobile operating system running on the Linux kernel". ok...	00:18
SpeedEvil	IMO - it's a sufficiently fas-moving space that trying to look ahead more than 6 months is difficult.	00:18
SpeedEvil	And pointless.	00:18
hawaii_	messerting - It sure is better than your other options; Android, iOS, Blackberry or WP7.	00:19
hawaii_	WebOS is the closest thing you'll find to Maemo/MeeGo.	00:19
messerting	hawaii_: true	00:20
SpeedEvil	Some people are still selling openmoko freerunners.	00:20
hawaii_	LOL	00:20
SpeedEvil	Which is probably the closest.	00:20
SpeedEvil	But is not exactly new hardware.	00:20
hawaii_	Well, Maemo itself, would be the closest.	00:20
hawaii_	OpenMoko is hardly flourishing...even when compared to Maemo 5.	00:20
messerting	Haha, I've got one (Freerunner)	00:20
SpeedEvil	messerting: yeah.	00:21
SpeedEvil	:/	00:21
SpeedEvil	messerting: Have you tried more recent OS on it? Things have improved a fair bit since launch.	00:21
SpeedEvil	SHR/...	00:21
messerting	I installed latest Qt-based a couple of month ago	00:21
messerting	Still doesn't work as a phone	00:21
messerting	Tried SHR a year ago or so.	00:22
messerting	It was a very promising project - that failed, unfortunately	00:23
messerting	Sad to see Maemo/Meego fail too...	00:23
wmarone_	meego's not done yet	00:24
messerting	For what it's worth - I am really impressed and really satisfied with my n900/maemo. Suits my needs indeed.	00:25
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SpeedEvil	I'm depressed in many ways that much effort is going into rooting, and using rooted phones.	00:32
wmarone_	sure	00:33
hawaii_	Depressed?	00:33
SpeedEvil	When that's a fundamentally unsustainable activity that goes away if the developers employ someone that's passed encryption101	00:33
GAN900	SpeedEvil, there's why I think Google is truly evil.	00:33
wmarone_	people just accept it, and they'll yell at you if you try to argue that you shouldn't have to	00:33
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: Because it's wasted effort, that is detracting from open phones.	00:33
hawaii_	Uh	00:34
GAN900	Think of all of the talented people wasting their energy.	00:34
wmarone_	but the carriers too hate open phones	00:34
SpeedEvil	wmarone_: That somewhat varies in other countries.	00:34
wmarone_	I'd wager that most hardware OEMs do too	00:34
Proteous	even if you have passed encryption101 it's still a very hard problem	00:34
hawaii_	I fail to see how it's a wasted effort.	00:35
hawaii_	Google isn't providing suid access. People want it.	00:35
SpeedEvil	Proteous: It is getting much less hard all the time.	00:35
Proteous	is it?	00:35
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: It's wasted as it is per-phone-model.	00:35
wmarone_	SpeedEvil: sure, but as I noted, vendors will act that way too. see the milestone, which is crippled due to motorola	00:35
hawaii_	Not really. It's per OEM+Android CO build	00:35
SpeedEvil	Proteous: yes - as the CPUs support encryption better. And the ROM and RAM are integrated.	00:35
hawaii_	If HTC vanilla flashes the same build across 7 devices - they will all have the same vuln.	00:36
SpeedEvil	Proteous: To do it 'right' - all you need is a signed boot ROM in the SOC (this exists), that loads a signed bootloader with no exploitable bugs, that loads a signed kernel.	00:36
GAN900	hawaii_, view it as effort that's not going into making MeeGo awsome.	00:36
hawaii_	SpeedEvil, "no exploitable bugs".	00:37
Proteous	the devil is in the implementation	00:37
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Proteous	it's not a tech problem, it's a programing securly problem	00:37
SpeedEvil	This is not trivial. But many of the 'roots' reported are _REALLY_REALLY_REALLY_FUCKING_BASIC_	00:37
Proteous	yes	00:37
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SpeedEvil	As in - you don't make these sort of mistakes if you've actually studied the subject, rather than read the docs of a few crypto libraries and thought you understood it.	00:37
Proteous	making a device that is unrootable for consumer applications just isn't really worth spending the money on	00:37
SpeedEvil	It's not actually any harder.	00:38
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hawaii_	WTF	00:38
Proteous	sure, it can made doing a lot of other stuff harder	00:38
hawaii_	So what you're essentially saying is - "make your code secure".	00:38
hawaii_	That could be said for just about ANY computing issue.	00:38
Proteous	legetimate stuff that the phone maker will want to do	00:38
SpeedEvil	It's akin to making a calculator program that does not bomb when you divide by zero.	00:38
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SpeedEvil	Proteous: nothing the phone provider wants to do is made harder - they have the root key, signing is trivial.	00:39
hawaii_	Programmers don't write inherently secure code.	00:39
hawaii_	They. Do. not.	00:39
SpeedEvil	You do not need inherently secure code.	00:39
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SpeedEvil	Most of the exploits have been around trivial and glaring design bugs.	00:39
SpeedEvil	Not 'clever' exploits.	00:39
hawaii_	Yes...	00:40
hawaii_	So it has nothing to do with what you said though	00:40
Proteous	hawaii that's because every programer of every device is a moron!	00:40
hawaii_	You eluded to "secure SoC TPMC, chainload signed ROM and boot"	00:40
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: yes.	00:40
hawaii_	When the holes being exploited are irrelevant of bootloaders at this time.	00:41
hawaii_	These are userland and priv-esc vulns	00:41
hawaii_	Only Motorola has felt a puny amount of backlash from "eFuse"	00:41
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: Sure - signed bootloader, and signed kernel limits the exploit surface lots.	00:41
SpeedEvil	And means you can't reflash the kernel.	00:41
hawaii_	Try telling Apple that.	00:42
SpeedEvil	Properly implemented signed...	00:42
hawaii_	They've implemented ASLR and have been using signed ROM and bootloaders	00:42
hawaii_	but their shit is broken wide open continuously.	00:42
trip0	http://bit.ly/eLTzzL	00:42
hawaii_	You can't just say "signed bootloader and signed kernel limits" and tada	00:43
SpeedEvil	trip0: This in many ways is not interesting other than a proof of concept. It's going to be very different than the 'meego' device released.	00:43
Proteous	yeah, you need pixxy dust and unicorns then you are set	00:44
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: No, you can't. It assumes a raft of other stuff.	00:44
hawaii_	I'd love to see that actually implemented properly - it has basically NEVER been done.	00:44
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: For example, a secure kernel, without exploitable priv escalation bugs, user/root seperation, ...	00:44
trip0	SpeedEvil, i know not of any other meego device ;)	00:44
SpeedEvil	Signed app-code helps lots too.	00:44
hawaii_	Keep day dreaming.	00:44
hawaii_	How long has the Linux kernel been around?	00:45
hawaii_	Still priv-esc in it to THIS day	00:45
hawaii_	How long has oBSD been auditing shit?	00:45
hawaii_	Still RCE in daemons to THIS day.	00:45
hawaii_	You think HTC has talent to throw at protecting their shit?	00:45
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Proteous	I wrote a totaly secure program once, I think it went: 10 PRINT HI - 20 GOTO 10	00:45
SpeedEvil	hawaii_: That's not quite the question. Yes, there are priv-esc bugs. If you can only installed signed apps, from makers who have not intended to put exploits in, then your attacks become more complex.	00:46
hawaii_	More complex != non-existant.	00:46
Proteous	game consols have been doing the signed apps for ever	00:46
Proteous	doesn't help	00:46
SpeedEvil	Sure.	00:46
hawaii_	There is a time when you have to decide to stop mitigating against risks	00:46
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SpeedEvil	No, there isn't.	00:47
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SpeedEvil	There is a time when you start legislating against them.	00:47
SpeedEvil	And making it illegal.	00:47
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hawaii_	LOL	00:47
* SpeedEvil waves at the record industry.		00:47
Proteous	illegal to root a phone?	00:47
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hawaii_	You can't be serious.	00:47
Proteous	are you saying that would be a good thing?	00:47
SpeedEvil	Of course not!	00:47
hawaii_	Ask Sony how that's going for them.	00:47
SpeedEvil	I want open phones.	00:47
wmarone_	Apple insists that jailbreaking a phone is a violation of the DMCA	00:47
SpeedEvil	The most recent PS3 hack was a case in point.	00:48
messerting	The strategy behind DRM...	00:48
SpeedEvil	This is basically due to shitty broken design, not subtle implementation erros.	00:48
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hawaii_	Er	00:48
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hawaii_	That was the fallout of the INITIAL hack	00:49
hawaii_	Which was complex beyond human comprehension	00:49
hawaii_	Hence why it took so long for it to even happen.	00:49
SpeedEvil	I think this trend towards closed hardware you don't own is entirely evil, and would be very grateful if it went away tomorrow. I'm just depressed because using the shiny 'hacked' toys are reducing market and mindshare from any startup that might want to do open.	00:49
hawaii_	Uh, I'm going to have to disagree with that	00:50
SpeedEvil	The key retrieval was complex - however it was possible only because of a really basic design erro.	00:50
hawaii_	If anything, closed proprietary systems are forcing people to look at open solutions	00:50
hawaii_	If everybody is saying "you can't do that, you can't do that"	00:50
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hawaii_	There will be one beaconing org that says "YES, YOU CAN DO THAT"	00:51
hawaii_	and people will flock.	00:51
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ruskie	hawaii_, sadly doesn't work	00:51
ruskie	because most people are happy enough with what is provided	00:51
hawaii_	Agreed	00:51
hawaii_	but it's also because not every option is saying "no"	00:51
SpeedEvil	Especially if many of the devs are satisfied by working on 'hacked' shiny cheap stuff.	00:52
ruskie	ps3 was safe until they killed the otherOS option	00:52
messerting	SpeedEvil: You've got a point	00:52
ruskie	panicked instead of thinking it over	00:52
messerting	(I've got a pint)	00:52
hawaii_	I'm not sure if I buy that completely, I agree, yes.	00:52
hawaii_	But there were people who tried until they were blue in the face	00:53
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ruskie	hawaii_, naturally there will always be people that will try that	00:53
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ruskie	the thing is... give those that would actually crack it something else to keep them occupied	00:54
messerting	I'm trying to crack the encryption of my TV provider: "Impossible"	00:54
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SpeedEvil	messerting: Actually, many TV encryption solutions are eak, withknown holes.	00:54
SpeedEvil	weak	00:54
RST38h	TV? You watch TV>	00:55
messerting	hehe, yes	00:55
ruskie	I pay for cable... but generally get all the TV shows online through torrents	00:55
RST38h	Why would anyone do that?	00:55
* SpeedEvil ponders the last time he watched broadcast.		00:55
ruskie	atleast I can say some of that money goes back to the makers of the TV shows...	00:55
messerting	Got IPTV, with a Motorola STB, busybox	00:55
* ruskie crawls off to bed...		00:55
SpeedEvil	It's at least 2 years.	00:55
hawaii_	Not that they deserve your money, in any fashion, ruskie.	00:56
SpeedEvil	BBC iplayer ++	00:56
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SpeedEvil	get_iplayer.pl ++++	00:56
SpeedEvil	Which reminds me, I should really work outr why it's not running on the n900	00:56
messerting	SpeedEvil: Only in the UK	00:56
SpeedEvil	messerting: yes. I don't care, as I'm in the UK.	00:56
messerting	Good for you ;)	00:56
SpeedEvil	(also, you only need to proxy the initial setup - teh flash srtreams are not region locked)	00:56
messerting	True, I need to get into proxies	00:57
SpeedEvil	IIRC - I've not looked into it, for the above reason.	00:57
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nid0	or you johnny foreigner's can pay for access to it as of next year ish :>	00:59
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SpeedEvil	Really?	00:59
messerting	cool	00:59
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SpeedEvil	I hope also we in the UK can pay for access to archives - or it's included in the licence.	01:00
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nid0	theyre planning on an ipad international iplayer service initially yeah, presumably with intention to expand it to proper platforms	01:00
SpeedEvil	And that the 'next year ish' doesn't mean I can't download it.	01:00
messerting	The problem with such an archive, is that is won't contain the good stuff that is licensed by others (non BBC)	01:01
messerting	whereas recording yourself, you'll get whatever you wan't in your own local (cheap) archive	01:03
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messerting	(legally, as opposed to downloading a torrent)	01:04
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SpeedEvil	Breaking the TOS by keeping it too long is not legal.	01:23
SpeedEvil	But yes.	01:23
Termana	good morning	01:24
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pupnik	wow, programming is so slow	05:25
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pupnik	who here is a good artist who loves RPG games	05:29
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ruskie	Rhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/26/chicken_dance_open_source_license/ <-- rofl	10:11
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orangey	hello all	11:41
orangey	I seem to have a dead screen.	11:41
orangey	is there a way to get the video onto a screen via video out?	11:42
orangey	Video out has to be enabled, if I'm not mistaken, which it's not	11:42
orangey	I do have SSH access, though	11:42
robbiethe1st	Hm	11:45
robbiethe1st	With SSH access, you can do most anything	11:45
robbiethe1st	I don't know how, though	11:46
orangey	when I VNC in, all I get is a 2px x ~200px black area	11:46
orangey	robbiethe1st: well, I'm having some issues reading my SMSes that are stored in there, for example	11:46
orangey	they're in a sql db, but I can't get them	11:46
robbiethe1st	why not?	11:46
orangey	i don't know how to read sqlite	11:47
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ruskie	sqlite3 file.db	11:48
robbiethe1st	Oh; that's easy	11:48
ruskie	then just run sql statements on it	11:48
robbiethe1st	Grab it, bring it to your computer	11:48
robbiethe1st	install the "SQLite Manager" extension for firefox	11:48
robbiethe1st	Nice -GUI- based manager	11:48
ruskie	if you need such things ;)	11:48
robbiethe1st	I assume he does, because if he didn't, he probably wouldn't be asking such things	11:49
ruskie	and if you actually use that PoS that is firecrud	11:49
ruskie	not everyone knows how to access sqlite dbs even more advanced users	11:49
robbiethe1st	"users" is the operative word there - Anyone who'd be messing with one via a command line is probably a dev.	11:50
orangey	sigh	11:51
orangey	how is x11vnc supposed to work?	11:51
orangey	can I not start it from ssh?	11:51
ruskie	I thought it's basically an X11 extension you need to load	11:51
robbiethe1st	I'm honestly not sure. You -can- start it, but I think you have to set the DISPLAY variable	11:51
orangey	Aha	11:52
robbiethe1st	env DISPLAY=:0	11:52
robbiethe1st	possibly?	11:52
ruskie	DISPLAY=:0 command	11:52
ruskie	:)	11:52
ruskie	it's export DISPLAY=:0 in sh	11:52
ruskie	env is csh iirc	11:52
robbiethe1st	works in bash	11:53
robbiethe1st	<_< I only know that because when I was trying to get a gnome-terminal window to launch with a cron-job, I had to use that	11:53
robbiethe1st	export may work too; I assume it will	11:53
robbiethe1st	But env is what I have in my crontab file, for whatever reason	11:54
ruskie	could be a crontab specific thing	11:54
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ruskie	anyway it's not necessary to export it into the environment	11:54
ruskie	just prepend the command with the variable itself	11:55
robbiethe1st	Huh, could that have been what I was doing? "env DISPLAY=:0 gnome-terminal -e '/Data/comics/update.sh'"	11:57
ruskie	possibly... env though in that is redundant	11:57
orangey	so export DISPLAY=:0	11:57
orangey	then x11vnc from ssh doesn't work	11:57
ruskie	DISPLAY=:0 command	11:57
ruskie	DISPLAY=:0 x11vnc	11:57
orangey	rather, the vncviewer gives no meaningful output	11:57
ruskie	but make sure you don't have any other x11vnc instances running	11:57
orangey	as root or as user?	11:58
orangey	ruskie: Could you try it from yours?	11:58
orangey	I still get a small full width by 10 pixel height black window in vncviewer	11:58
* ruskie establishes wifi with the n900...		11:59
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ruskie	and waits for the f... annoying updates to finish processing...	12:00
ruskie	I really wish cssu would get rid of this get updates on connection...	12:00
ruskie	or atleast make it optional	12:00
cehteh	updates on connection?	12:03
cehteh	i must have missed somethnig or turned it off :P	12:03
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ruskie	x11vnc -display :0 <-- this might be what you're looking for	12:03
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ruskie	as user	12:04
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orangey	ruskie: I sshed in as root	12:05
orangey	su user	12:05
orangey	x11vnc -display :0	12:05
orangey	then vncviewer from another system	12:05
orangey	and still no go	12:05
ruskie	does it display that it's listening?	12:05
orangey	rfbProcessClientNormalMessage: ignoring unsupported encoding type Enc(0xFFFFFEFF)	12:06
orangey	that's from another vnc viewer program I'm using..	12:06
ruskie	The VNC desktop is: <-- I meant x11vnc	12:06
ruskie	that works for me	12:07
ruskie	I did need to activate the screen first	12:07
orangey	are you using xvncviewer?	12:07
ruskie	else it was black	12:07
orangey	activate?	12:07
orangey	oh.	12:07
orangey	ok	12:07
orangey	ok, slightly more encouraging	12:08
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orangey	hmm. doesn't seem to show much in xvncviewer or xtightvncviewer/	12:10
orangey	what's left?	12:10
ruskie	restart? reflash?	12:10
orangey	well, the problem started when the screen had too much condensation in it	12:10
orangey	so unlikely a reflash will do it	12:10
orangey	as for restart, done many times	12:10
ruskie	also scping /home/user would be a good idea...	12:11
ruskie	so that you have a backup of all those files	12:11
orangey	yep.	12:11
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robbiethe1st	Speaking of which, you can replace the screen for about $50US	12:16
orangey	WOAH!	12:16
orangey	Guess what fixed it?	12:16
robbiethe1st	?	12:16
ruskie	?	12:16
orangey	I was trying to enable the screen via ssh	12:17
orangey	suddenly the screen came to life	12:17
orangey	with this:	12:17
robbiethe1st	Could the X server have died/got screwed up?	12:17
ruskie	could be the slider got broken maybe...	12:17
ruskie	of course the power button should also bring the screen to life	12:17
orangey	http://pastebin.com/dLi7C5jB	12:17
orangey	nope	12:17
orangey	slider works fine	12:17
orangey	well, that near death experience reminds me of how much I love my n900	12:19
orangey	and also of how fickle electronics are	12:19
SpeedEvil	orangey: was the screen at all visible - the backlight?	12:20
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orangey	SpeedEvil: not at all	12:20
SpeedEvil	Err - even without the backlight, the screen is somewhat visible, I mean	12:20
orangey	SpeedEvil: I know what you mean	12:20
orangey	I was very careful	12:20
orangey	essentially, it happened like this	12:20
orangey	I biked to work in -15C	12:20
orangey	i hopped in the shower	12:21
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orangey	when I got out, I noted severe condensation all over	12:21
orangey	I was using the machine normally for a few mins in the steamy room, then screen went dark	12:21
orangey	figured it must be the condensation, so I let it dry for my shift - 9 hrs.	12:21
orangey	still no go, so I started hacking around	12:21
orangey	and here we are	12:21
DocScrutinizer	aaah, fixed by voodoo	12:21
DocScrutinizer	send "echo foo >bar" until water evaporates	12:22
orangey	hehehehe : )	12:22
orangey	anyway, finally I did the command in that pastebin ( http://pastebin.com/dLi7C5jB )	12:22
orangey	and the screen miraculously came back to life	12:23
orangey	ruskie: Now the VNC works as expected, by the way	12:24
* orangey shakes the n900		12:25
DocScrutinizer	I'd suggest a proper drying procedure followed by a usual boot	12:25
orangey	don't ever do that to me again!	12:25
orangey	DocScrutinizer: All is back to normal now	12:25
DocScrutinizer	if you say so	12:25
SpeedEvil	Remove batteries _always_	12:25
SpeedEvil	if you suspect condensation	12:25
SpeedEvil	at least to the point of misbehaviour.	12:25
orangey	SpeedEvil: i let it dry for now ~ 10 hrs	12:26
SpeedEvil	And then dry thouroughly.	12:26
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SpeedEvil	Condensation can cause - for example - voltage regulators to be mis-set and to overvoltage stuff.	12:26
cehteh	put it in the microwave for faster d(ry)ing :P	12:26
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orangey	hehehe	12:27
orangey	why do the most awesome gadgets always get the most terrible support?	12:27
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orangey	with the exception of the WRT54g, of course.	12:28
orangey	sigh	12:28
DocScrutinizer	corrosion may go on even when _screen_ is back to 'normal'	12:28
orangey	I love both my n810 and n900	12:28
orangey	DocScrutinizer: shhhh. you're ruining my moment	12:28
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kerio	the sheevaplug has great support	12:30
DocScrutinizer	but well, if you're not willing to remove battery and dry it for a few days, then in your special situation watching video all the time at max brightness is probably the second best thing you can do :-P	12:30
DocScrutinizer	as it nicely heats up the system	12:31
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DocScrutinizer-8	mhm, so let's see where's that opera thing for diablo	12:46
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DocScrutinizer-8	what an AWESOME piece of software! Kudos Opera	13:08
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DocScrutinizer	rendering is kinda slow on N810, but once it finished, the UX is incredible	13:31
DocScrutinizer51	let's see...	13:32
arcol	DocScrutinizer: and how is it on n900? do you have one, no?	13:34
DocScrutinizer51	let's see...	13:34
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, rendering of what on N810?	13:38
MohammadAG	merlin1991, cloned the FMTX dialog in the mediaplayer, I think it does all checks now	13:38
MohammadAG	(USB cable, headphones etc)	13:39
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MohammadAG	and the checks can be disabled	13:39
MohammadAG	actually, Venemo cloned it, I just added the functionality with DBus now :P	13:39
Venemo	MohammadAG, :)	13:39
DocScrutinizer51	Venemo: ??	13:40
Venemo	[12:31] <DocScrutinizer> rendering is kinda slow on N810 -> rendering of what?	13:40
DocScrutinizer51	of webspages?	13:41
Venemo	ah. ok	13:41
arcol	can somebody help me with packaging for maemo?	13:41
arcol	I would like to package python-elementary (and thus all enlightenment library)	13:41
arcol	I have some basic questions. When switching target platform inside scratchbox, do it have separate set of installed applications? (ie. do I need to upgrade the sdk to 1.3 in each platform?)	13:44
jacekowski	yes	13:44
Venemo	arcol, yes, you have to	13:47
arcol	thanks.	13:47
Venemo	brb	13:48
arcol	also the sdk did put a separate Xephyr launcher icon on the desktop (Maemo5 SDK). It does launch a phone-like interface just fine. However from scratchbox Im unable to launch the gui	13:48
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DocScrutinizer51	indeed, the nice UI concept and experience is the same on Opera11 for N900. Recommended	14:05
DocScrutinizer51	NB I haven't checked the ToS	14:06
RST38h	EHLO punks	14:10
RST38h	DocS: How are the radionuclides tonight?	14:10
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DocScrutinizer51	swimming like the sea fish	14:19
DocScrutinizer51	while most of them have three concurrent parties in a debris bed	14:19
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DocScrutinizer51	well, 1.8 rsp 2.2m of core are exposed, and when tepco filled in ('injected') SEAwater, they went 'DUH there's steam and a rise in core vessel pressure! Let's better stop this"	14:24
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DocScrutinizer51	what the hell else they thought will happen when they cool down a almost or already melting core by injecting water?? I'd say 'hooray the water seems to cool the core, we get lots of steam which shows it has been about time. Let's go on until it stops creating steam"	14:26
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DocScrutinizer51	tepco missed the right time to do this. Now their options are severely limited	14:28
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DocScrutinizer	you could tell the story with minimal changes if you'd talk about your car's engine and its cooling instead of a reactor	14:30
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kerio	DocScrutinizer, the EE that also knows about car engines and nuclear reactors	14:33
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DocScrutinizer	yay, my sarcasm detector alarm yelled way too loud	14:33
kerio	DocScrutinizer: <3	14:33
kerio	please don't ban me	14:34
DocScrutinizer	why should I? Did you do anything inappropriate to the channel?	14:35
DocScrutinizer	it's more like it's been me going OT like I did several times each day for the last two weeks	14:36
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DocScrutinizer	kerio: honestly, first thing they did at Fucku was 'venting to reduce PV pressure', which of course resulted in water escaping from reactor as steam. Now when they fill in new water, what would they expect the new water to do? OF COURSE it also will need to escape as steam, and you need to continue doing this procedure as fast as you can, until the pressure inside PV stays in limits and the water level stays high enough to cover the core	14:43
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DocScrutinizer	...while concurrently you should try to get normal closed loop cooling back to function, so energy can transport out of core and containment not by steam but by water pumped to a heat exchanger and then back into core	14:46
RST38h	DocS: well some of the water might seep down through cracks	14:47
DocScrutinizer	yeah, now. in block3	14:47
RST38h	yep	14:47
RST38h	Which means they won't be ableto restore the normal cooling, most likely	14:47
RST38h	...Samsung unveiled new Galaxy Tab tablets and showed videos of interviews with 'true-life' users who raved about the Tab, including a travel writer, a filmmaker, and a real-estate CEO. One problem: the writer and the CEO are actually New York stage actors.	14:48
DocScrutinizer	as mentioned above. They missed to do the right ting right time, now their options are severely limited	14:48
kerio	RST38h: lol	14:48
* RST38h is not sure there has been the right thing to do from the start =(		14:48
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RST38h	Poor Samsung, couldn't get a CEO and a travel writer. I wonder where they got a filmmaker though and how much they paid...	14:49
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: obviously not. But they didn't even try to do the 'wrong' thing right	14:50
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RST38h	Ah, today RSS feeds just keep delivering: http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/	14:52
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RST38h	(in short: CMU stops teaching freshmen OO programming)	14:53
DocScrutinizer	instead they were shocked about the 'wrong' thing (injecting seawater) worked as expected and so gave them same "problems" again (overpressure), so they decided to reduce/stop even that, to trade in high pressure for a veritable coremelt	14:53
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RST38h	they started relieving pressure before injecting the seawater	14:53
DocScrutinizer	exactly	14:54
DocScrutinizer	which reduced amount of water in cooling	14:54
RST38h	either way, a device that can only remain stable with external power supply and blows up when that supply fails is not something I would like to see anywhere near myself	14:54
DocScrutinizer	so they thought when they refill, then WHY should this new water also create pressure/steam??	14:54
DocScrutinizer	3 stooges	14:54
RST38h	so, the real stooge here is GE who designed this thing in the 70s	14:55
DocScrutinizer	actually releasing steam without same time refilling the exact amount of water that got lost as steam was the first and worst bad thing they did	14:58
RST38h	would not change a thing	14:59
DocScrutinizer	sure	14:59
* RST38h got to use the latest Ovi Maps for routing yesterday: cooool		15:00
DocScrutinizer	it would create a continuous cooling	15:00
RST38h	Wish we had something like that i Maemo...	15:00
RST38h	DocS: Also continuous stream of vapor	15:00
arcol	can somebody give me an angrybirds .deb package?	15:00
RST38h	DocS: Very visible, if not poisonous. Instant seppuku for whoever allowed that.	15:01
arcol	on my device it is not cached anymore (/var/cache/apt/archives), and in ovi store it marks, I already downloaded	15:01
DocScrutinizer	if there's so much energy created inside the containment that the system needs to vent steam then you need to sustain that steam venting until another better cooling is established, and to sustain it you need to refill water constantly	15:01
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: exactly. What I said. They traded in relatively harmless steam escaping from CV by just sitting and watching core to meltdown	15:03
RST38h	DocS: Their fate has been sealed once Asahi Shimbun published an article in 1986 claiming that "Russians can only be trusted with a balalaika" :)	15:04
DocScrutinizer	not that I couldn't understand this mindset. I'm postponing my next visit at dentist since 12 months now. I know it will get only worse	15:04
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RST38h	DocS: Karma. Dangerous thing to lose.	15:04
DocScrutinizer	now they send in "volunteers" into water with 3.8MBq/cm^3 to fix the cooling. HELL what do they think will happen when they start that cooling? It also needs water	15:07
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RST38h	Doc: This will happen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_%28nuclear_reactor%29	15:08
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DocScrutinizer	>> Flooding of the corium mass with water, or falling of molten corium mass into a water pool, may result in a temperature spike and production of large amounts of hydrogen which can result in a pressure spike in the containment vessel. The steam explosion resulting from such sudden corium-water contact can disperse the materials, forming projectiles that may damage the containment by impact.	15:21
kerio	hm, isn't that one of the most dangerous materials ever or what?	15:22
RST38h	Wonderful, amazing substance	15:22
RST38h	kerio: not really	15:22
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auenfx4	woo, battery has been on 0.4% for about 6hrs now	15:25
DocScrutinizer	auenfx4: no, bme lies are at "battery: 0.4%" now for 6h ;-P	15:28
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Jaffa	Reminder: Maemo Community Council meeting in 30 minutes in #maemo-meeting	15:30
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auenfx4	DocScrutinizer, probably, it went from 75% to 0.4% rather quickly :P	15:48
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GAN900	Anyone recommend a news source that isn't a steaming pile of anti-nuclear sensationalism?	15:52
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alterego	news.bbc.co.uk?	15:55
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nid0	GAN900: theregister?	16:14
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GAN900	No, neither of those are good answers. :)	16:16
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mikhas	GAN900, I have the feeling that the newspapers are a bit sad that it is only one nuclear power plant right now, and even there it is only one block	16:57
mikhas	they'd be much happier if they could already write about babies and old women dying from radioactive fallout	16:58
RST38h	There are 4 blocks + 2 in reserve in the casr the first 4 do notdeliver.	16:58
RST38h	GAN900: http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/	16:59
mikhas	radioactivity feels so much more dangerous than a tsunami! even though the latter already killed people, whereas the former might kill people	16:59
mikhas	I am too cynical for this world.	16:59
RST38h	yes, you are, die now.	17:00
* RST38h laughs diabolically		17:00
mikhas	from radioactivity?	17:00
mikhas	I'll try!	17:00
* mikhas opens windows to increase exposure		17:00
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mikhas	thanks for the link though, RST38h	17:02
mikhas	those PDF's are great	17:02
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GAN900	mikhas, yes.	17:04
GAN900	And all of the news networks are trotting out slobbering anti-nuclear activists as "nuclear experts".	17:05
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RST38h	GAN900: You definitely want TheRegister coverage then	17:06
jacekowski	what was dead toll for that tsunami so far	17:06
jacekowski	is it 3k or 30k?	17:06
RST38h	GAN900: Very logical, very unhuman, just like we like it =)	17:06
GAN900	RST38h, TheReighter, really?	17:07
RST38h	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/14/fukushiima_analysis/	17:07
RST38h	Yea, who else? TheOnion? =)	17:07
* GAN900 notes they changed the Grand Prix course layout . . . again.		17:07
mikhas	I am trembling in fear! radioactivity at the gates of the nuclear power plant might soon reach the amount of radiation from a CT scan!	17:07
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jacktheripper	does the N900 have a builtin firewall ? I can only access the SSH server even though I'm listening on port 1433 with a custom python script (on root)	17:10
RST38h	no	17:10
jacktheripper	but what could be stopping me ? :S I'm not running a firewall on my client machine	17:11
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jacekowski	jacktheripper: nope	17:15
MohammadAG	jacekowski, any ideas if 0.05 frequencies can be enabled in fmtxd?	17:15
jacekowski	jacktheripper: nothing on n900	17:15
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jacekowski	MohammadAG: i don't think driver can do it	17:15
jacekowski	MohammadAG: but if it can it can be enabled	17:15
MohammadAG	jacekowski, it's not a limitation in HW though right?	17:16
jacekowski	i think it may be	17:16
MohammadAG	interesting	17:17
jacktheripper	solved, mistake in the script :)	17:17
MohammadAG	though Nokia's S60 FMTX HW supports it	17:17
jacekowski	hmm	17:17
MohammadAG	S60 devices*	17:18
jacekowski	MohammadAG: if you want you can check it	17:18
jacekowski	MohammadAG: <------><------>.channel_spacing<------>= 10,	17:18
jacekowski	that line	17:18
jacekowski	modify it to 1	17:18
jacekowski	and recompile	17:18
MohammadAG	what about fmtxd?	17:18
jacekowski	fmtxd should read it	17:18
MohammadAG	jacekowski, fmtxd reads its own values	17:19
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MohammadAG	I mean, in the mediaplayer, I was reading from sysfs, but fmtxd refused to switch on those frequencies	17:19
MohammadAG	Channel spacing is 100 in sysfs, .2 in MHz on my device	17:20
jacekowski	hmmm	17:20
jacekowski	it shouldn't	17:21
MohammadAG	yep, sysfs reports 100, fmtx_client says 200	17:22
MohammadAG	freq_step=200	17:22
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MohammadAG	jacekowski, also, sysfs reports 87 as the lowest MHz, fmtxd reports 88.1	17:23
MohammadAG	hey timsamoff_maemo	17:25
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ZogG	morning =)	17:31
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merlin1991	morning :P	17:33
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DocScrutinizer51	MohammadAG: NB FM chan spacing is different in US and EU	17:34
RST38h	Doc: AFAIK it is the same 100kHz	17:34
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer51, I know, it's 2 in the US (as on my device)	17:34
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MohammadAG	no	17:34
MohammadAG	200	17:35
RST38h	Hmmm	17:35
MohammadAG	1-3-5-7-9	17:35
RST38h	Only 20-30 are used for a channel anyway...	17:35
RST38h	How interesting	17:35
DocScrutinizer51	lower freq is 87.5	17:35
MohammadAG	with fmtx faker the whole range is unlocked obviously	17:35
DocScrutinizer51	neither 87 nor 88.1	17:36
DocScrutinizer51	I mean official	17:36
DocScrutinizer51	in EU	17:37
DocScrutinizer51	us is some 70	17:37
DocScrutinizer51	76?	17:37
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MohammadAG	88.1 on US devices	17:39
kerio	i still can't select 108.0 on the default UI	17:41
kerio	:(	17:41
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MohammadAG	no, US is 88.1	17:45
MohammadAG	I don't have to say that again :P	17:46
MohammadAG	kerio, fmtx_client can't set 108.0	17:47
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kerio	oh, why is that? :\|	17:49
kerio	you can force any frequency you want with v4l2ctl	17:50
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ZogG	http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/fkeoc2ez/screenshot_052.png	17:53
ZogG	bad things may happen	17:53
kerio	TIL you need 7gb of free space to build openoffice	17:55
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, that's too bad.	17:59
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halin	Which is the latest version of qt for maemo ?	18:10
MohammadAG	4.8 is libqt4-experimental afaik	18:11
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RST38h	ahhahaha, ssh from the e7 phone works!	18:41
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: :nod: I've been wrong >>The FM band in Japan is 76-90 MHz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_broadcast_band	18:44
ShadowJK	that sounds rather amazing, just that they managed to not break compatibility for existing apps	18:45
ShadowJK	and does hw keyboard work too? That used to be broken all the time by new models iirc :)	18:45
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MohammadAG	ShadowJK, S60 has good compatibility	18:51
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: though >>In March 2008, the FCC requested public comment on turning the bandwidth currently occupied by analog television channels 5 and 6 (76–88 MHz) over to extending the FM broadcast band when the digital television transition was to be completed in February 2009 (ultimately delayed to June 2009).[9] This proposed allocation would effectively assign frequencies corresponding to the existing Japanese FM radio service (which	18:52
DocScrutinizer	begins at 76 MHz) for use as an extension to the existing North American FM broadcast band.	18:52
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/VHF_Usage.svg	18:59
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RST38h	Doc: Too bad the chat misses modulation type	19:05
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RST38h	Doc: Airband/Marine is actually AM, not FM, if I remember correctly	19:06
DocScrutinizer	yes, that's correct	19:06
RST38h	Also of some interest is a reference to an obsolete 819-line (!) TV	19:06
DocScrutinizer	except of an occasional SSB	19:07
DocScrutinizer	WOW	19:07
DocScrutinizer	interlaced?	19:07
RST38h	Well, it is actually 2x410, but still	19:07
RST38h	of course	19:07
DocScrutinizer	or progressive?	19:07
RST38h	no, interlaced	19:07
RST38h	forget progressive:)	19:07
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RST38h	525-line sounds like NTSC, 625-line is PAL/SECAM	19:08
* DocScrutinizer waits for crashanddie_ complaining about geeks sounding like "the big bang theory"		19:08
RST38h	405 and 819 I had no idea about	19:09
DocScrutinizer	me neither	19:09
DocScrutinizer	well, 405 might be Hitler speaking at olympic games :-P	19:10
RST38h	405 is British, 819 is French/Belgian	19:10
RST38h	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_television_systems <== some serious geek fun there	19:11
RST38h	both were monochrome	19:13
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pupnik_	http://i.imgur.com/FaG14.png today's UI progress	19:27
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troulouliou	hi i resize my device Mydocs/opt and now i always get full storage issue pop up ..... ; is it due to the resize or the fact that now my rootfs is full ?	20:18
lcuk	we cannot know from here, but df should tell you	20:19
troulouliou	root is nor full but i have 0% free	20:20
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lcuk	troulouliou, rootfs is a compressed filesystem	20:21
lcuk	if you have no free space, you have no free space :)	20:21
lcuk	and hence the answer to your question	20:22
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troulouliou	ok that the issue ; another one ; i always get seg fault when using subversion svn command	20:22
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troulouliou	i debugded with gdb on the phone and the issue is locate in libapr from apache	20:23
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troulouliou	arm equivalent to mov 0, value	20:23
troulouliou	anywhere to report this ?	20:23
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lcuk	did packages just suddenly lose maintainer addresses? do they have bugtrackers? did you search the net for upstream?	20:24
troulouliou	ok the same way as ever :) just got a n900 some month ago and i m setting it up slowly upon free time	20:25
troulouliou	no main phone	20:25
troulouliou	and not a lot of time testing ...	20:25
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troulouliou	lcuck: thanks for time	20:28
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timeless_w7ip	so, if anyone here happens to have w7 and is in europe, now would be a good time to click the clock in the system notification area	21:03
DocScrutinizer	haha	21:03
DocScrutinizer	"WARNING, summertime!" ?	21:03
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Corsac	screenshot?	21:07
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timeless_w7ip	corsac: yeah, i made one	21:24
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Corsac	timeless_w7ip: can you share?	21:29
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Gizmokid2005	anyone know of an application that can be used to upload/sync your contacts with your google voice/contacts?	21:31
Gizmokid2005	from the N900 of course	21:31
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DocScrutinizer	no, we injected a virus into google's virus, and that earned us a sentence to not speak about it	21:41
timeless_w7ip	corsac: once i find my collection of w7 stuff	21:41
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timeless_w7ip	http://mxr-test.konigsberg.mozilla.org/ideapad/source/fingerable%20clock/clock-near-dst.png	21:43
Gizmokid2005	Lol DocScrutinizer :P	21:44
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Gizmokid2005	I mean, if I must go through the steps of using a Win/OSX/Linux box between, fine... I'm checking here now: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sync#Synchronising_with_Google	21:44
timeless_w7ip	The OCSP server experienced an internal error.	21:44
timeless_w7ip	(Error code: sec_error_ocsp_server_error)	21:45
timeless_w7ip	fgrr	21:45
timeless_w7ip	wrong window	21:45
lcuk	timeless_w7ip, -> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=915331#post915331	21:45
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timeless_w7ip	heh	21:46
timeless_w7ip	ouch	21:46
Gizmokid2005	nice lcuk, trying to skip some days huh?	21:47
lcuk	Gizmokid2005, umm yeah perhaps	21:47
lcuk	unintended whoopsie	21:47
Gizmokid2005	how'd you manage that?	21:48
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MohammadAG	timeless_w7ip, that's how it's been since Vista	22:00
MohammadAG	the DST notice	22:00
Gizmokid2005	osso-addressbook-backup -e contacts.vcard	22:01
Gizmokid2005	^^ amazing command :)	22:01
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ShadowJK	ewhat does SJC mean	22:06
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timeless_w7ip	mohammadag: some of us didn't use Vista	22:16
timeless_w7ip	shadowjk: google it?	22:16
MohammadAG	timeless_w7ip, lucky you then :P	22:16
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ZogG	MohammadAG why not 7?	22:18
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MohammadAG	cause 7 wasn't there when vista came out	22:18
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DocScrutinizer-8	haha, opera segfault on opera:settings 'ignore plugins filename' browse-button	22:36
DocScrutinizer-8	also a pity not even youtube does play	22:37
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ShadowJK	flash isn't supposed to work in opera :)	22:38
ShadowJK	I have seen random snippets of mail log on the interwebs, and I get the feeling they did some special stuff in flash-plugin and microb in order to not make performance suck (more)	22:39
ShadowJK	so it probably doesn't quite behave like standard npapi plugins..	22:40
DocScrutinizer-8	hmm	22:41
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DocScrutinizer-8	you mean not even the existing flash plugin is a 'true' plugin that can get used by any other app?	22:42
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Pillum	how do i tag threads on tmo?	23:10
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jacekowski	i think you tag posts not threads	23:11
jacekowski	but i never got into that tagging thing	23:11
khorben_	tag you're it!	23:11
Pillum	lol	23:12
Pillum	no	23:12
Pillum	you tag threads	23:12
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Pillum	im bored+	23:25
Pillum	any ideas?	23:25
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lcuk	Pillum, get the tablet UX from #meego and see what works etc	23:28
Pillum	ok	23:28
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