IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2011-02-15

stevomanuany body help with best way to ssh on ubuntu00:00
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* SpeedEvil ponders an answer beginning 'Install slackware'.00:00
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till|just use ssh?00:02
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* Scorcerer rather thinks of "install gentoo"00:03
SpeedEvilOr do you want the 'use public key, not password' answer.00:03
Per_n900Pardon a stupid question, why is browser daemon always running? What does it do?00:04
Venemowhich one consumes more power? bluetooth or wifi?00:05
SpeedEvilbluetooth, probably00:05
nidOPer_n900: for one, speeds up start time for loading the browser ui00:05
SpeedEvilPer_n900: it accellerates startup of any browser related process.00:05
nidOas the backend's already up00:05
SpeedEvilWhich are many of the widgets, or the browser itself.00:05
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Per_n900Ah, thanks!00:06
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VenemoSpeedEvil: but it still consumes less than HSDPA, right?00:09
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SpeedEvilWay, way less.00:12
SpeedEvilWell - it depends.00:12
SpeedEvilIf your link is truly idle, it probably doesn't matter.00:12
SpeedEvilBut GSM/3G uses _lots_ of power for even relatively sparse - one a second - packets.00:12
kerioi thought it used *more* power for that00:13
SpeedEvilwifi is good, with powersaving, bluetooth may have a slightly higher average power when in some modes than wifi 'idle'00:13
SpeedEvilSorry, I'mnot being clear - in all conditions, power saving wifi transferring the same traffic will use _lots_ less thanGSM/wifi00:14
SpeedEvilBluetooth will usually use less than wifi.00:14
VenemoSpeedEvil: thanks00:18
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DocScrutinizerdoes anybody know which BT class is N900?00:23
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MohammadAG2.1 + EDR i think00:24
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MohammadAGclass 200:25
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DocScrutinizerso it uses less power than wifi00:25
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DocScrutinizerwhich is in line with my finding about power consumption increase for BT enabled00:27
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trumeelxp had mentioned that wifi consumes battery if the modules are loaded but are not connected00:37
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MohammadAGtrumee, or ifconfig down wlan000:40
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_trinethats odd00:42
_trineits normally the  iface after ifconfig00:42
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trumeeMohammadAG, it will not rmmod the modules though00:47
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MohammadAGtrumee, uses same power00:56
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trumeeMohammadAG, when i connect to 3g, is wlan0 brought down like you described?00:59
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Venemotrumee: N900 can maintain 1 connection at a time01:02
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Proteousthe hostmask cloak isn't nearly as effective if you don't apply it until after you join the channel01:11
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MohammadAGreverse dns ftw01:11
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DocScrutinizertrumee: (wlan power) that's obvious: power saving mode works like that - AP:"next transmission slot now+160ms", N900:"fine, let's sleep til then". If there's no AP associated, then WLAN won't go sleeping01:14
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DocScrutinizertrumee: when GPRS is the connection used, then you got a setting in settings-internet which will shut down WLAN for 5,10, 15, 30 min, then start a short scan if any interesting APs are near, then sleep another long period01:17
DocScrutinizertrumee: that's a function implemented in ICD afaik01:18
trumeeDocScrutinizer, ok so if i am connected to 3g, should i have manually do a "ifconfig down wlan0" or does N900 take care of that.01:18
DocScrutinizern900 ICD takes care of that01:18
blackthorneanyone here from London?01:18
DocScrutinizerat least it *should* - If not confirmed that01:18
AndrewX192 !!!01:18
trumeeDocScrutinizer, ah i see. I have set it Never search.01:19
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pupnik  definitely interesting... comments?01:25
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trxwould be nice, but i doubt they will get the majority :(01:27
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jonwilI suspect most of the big institutions holding Nokia shares are going to be more likely to trust that Microsoft can save the company than that a bunch of people they never heard of can save it01:29
_trineno one will invest when its entirely young people simply because its impossible for them to understand how business works01:30
tychoSave the company ?01:31
_trinethey are confusing business and profits with their desires01:31
tychoIts the biggest phone manufactorer in the world....01:31
tychoIts brands worth has as much value as a smaller country01:31
Proteoustycho: refering to
_trineI am referring to the internet link ,, so am I01:31
tychoAm I the only one who thinks MeeGo sounds really stupid and cliche01:33
_trineright now after believing I made the right choice of phone in the first instance I think due to what has happen to Nokia I probably made the wrong choice01:33
Proteoustycho, the name?01:33
Proteouswhat's in a name01:34
tychoIt almost sound childish, like a word pun01:34
_trinemeegone now01:34
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ArkenoiWhat is the url to full firday's *asshole-not-to-be-named* presentation sildes? I'd "like" to read it once again.01:34
tychoMaemo, Symbian nice sounding words. MeeGo.. Me. Go.01:34
tychoSeriously my 3 year old nephew could come up with that name01:35
_trinethe name meego is out of the same book as punto for a car01:35
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trip0me goo is better01:37
_trineits a real shame really cos I do like my N900 and wish it would have gone on01:37
Arkenoi"Increase the lifespan of Symbian to a minimum of 5 years." what for?01:37
trip0to prolong the pain?01:37
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Proteouswasn't meego the combination of two differnt Os ventures?01:38
ArkenoiDid Intel *really* contribute anything useful to Meego?01:39
Proteousa yes, moblin and maemo01:39
Proteousthe moblin part01:39
trip0Arkenoi, only the core, package infrastructure, build system, and reference apps ;)01:40
trip0oh, and the kernel01:40
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trip0nokia contributed middle ware bits, the app framework, and some patches to the kernel (for the n900 mainly)01:41
Arkenoitrip0, does the kernel really differ? is it good? for build system it is said to be even *more* ugly ;-)01:41
trip0some* middleware bits (timed, sysuid, etc)01:41
trip0kernel differ from what? maemo's?01:42
Arkenoiwhat are notable meego kernel features?01:42
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trip0the meego kernel is closer to the vanilla kernel afaik01:42
trip0i'm no kernel expert01:42
trip0it has patches and fixes for specific devices out of a specific kernel maintainer's tree01:43
trip0alan cox?01:43
* Arkenoi tries to understand if there really was something worth delays, havoc and disruption which followed the merge, wouldn't it be more wise to just stay with harmattan?01:44
trip0Arkenoi, nokia's product delays had nothing to do with the project really01:44
trip0since harmattan really isn't meego based01:44
trip0harmattan and meego are not the same, only share similar components01:45
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trip0from what I hear, harmattan is much farther along than the open source meego project01:45
Arkenoifrom what i see now i got impression intel is *highly* atom/x86-centric with meego, so its contribution usefulness is questionable01:46
timelesstrip0: given that it had a head start...01:47
timelessArkenoi: that''s unfair01:47
trip0Intel is making meego crossplatform01:47
timelessthe vast majority of their code is portable <whatever>01:47
trip0of course, Intel wants it to run well on their devices01:47
timelessand they're writing ui's which will work on screens of roughly the same size as the n90001:47
trip0but the goal of the project is to be as device agnostic as possible01:47
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timelessintel needs a platform that runs on their hardware01:48
timelessthat doesn't mean the platform shouldn't run on other hardware01:48
pupnikbut this whole 'netbook OS' idea seems silly to me01:48
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pupnikmaybe i'm wrong01:48
* timeless shrugs01:48
timelessthis netbook is nice01:48
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trip0there's quite a bit of confusion around who has contributed what in meego between nokia and intel01:48
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timelessand it's more or less the target netbook01:48
timelessof course, it's running w7starter01:48
timelessnokia afaiu provided a couple of engineers, some bugs.meego resources, Qt, and some kernel/low level arm porting01:49
trip0it's important to note that nokia has essentially maemo6 that they are calling harmattan/meego that is not the same as the joint project that intel is contributing to01:49
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timelesspretty much everything else comes from intel or other parties01:50
ArkenoiWas rm-680 scheduled to be presented on MWC (if Elop did not cancel it)?01:50
tycho Youve seen this one ?01:50
timelessArkenoi: i don't think nokia told anyone what was planned anyway01:50
timelessi'm pretty sure i didn't know what was going to be announced01:50
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jonwilso is/was Harmatton going to use Maemo core pieces (like the telephony stack) or MeeGo core pieces like ofono01:51
tychololloo: That is amazing01:51
tychoSmart idea01:51
trip0jonwil, maemo's01:52
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timelesstycho: and how does one manage to get rails to work that way?01:52
trip0i don't think its running ofono like is01:52
trip0location stack is also from maemo01:52
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tychotimeless: not that hard01:52
timelessi guess it's doable01:52
jonwilok, so it would have been just as closed-source as Fremantle in all those key areas then...01:52
timelessw/ two layers01:52
timelessjonwil: that's where the nokia value is !01:53
lolloo950!!! nokia! i will buy that now!01:53
jonwilI dont see any value whatsoever in a legacy telephony stack that was only ever used on one handset and has now been replaced with something different :P01:54
tychoIm gonna have my n900 till it drops01:54
timelessjonwil: telephony stack? i was talking about closed UI01:54
jonwilhmmm yeah01:55
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trip0jonwil, yeh, just as closed in many areas in all likelyhood.  It's probably because of the product timeline they were pushing for.  the joint project with Intel came later and isn't quite ready yet01:56
* Arkenoi wonders what was the main reason there was no n9 in 2010 -- moblin merge or resource distraction by symbian?01:56
trip0they wanted to release harmattan in October from what I heard01:56
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jonwilin any case its clear that any future released based on the maemo codebase are dead01:56
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trip0Arkenoi, the framework they were using wasn't ready from what i could tell (MTF)01:57
tychoWhy did they scrap it in the first place01:57
pytherIs there any way to download gps data when I have a wifi connection?01:57
trip0tycho, scrap what?01:57
trip0pyther, just wifi? no.  you need a gps signal01:58
trip0tycho, they didn't scrap maemo01:58
pythertrip0: I mean I want to download the satilite info so that when I'm ready use the gps I can without needing a net connection01:58
trip0you mean, why did they scrap the hildon desktop and gtk?01:58
pythertrip0: I don't have 2/3G connection and I don't always remember to fire up a gps enabled application before I leave the house01:59
trip0pyther, you can't cash agps info01:59
Proteouspyther, no, with agps info it is just finding out your rough location and then using that info to do a faster calculation of what satalites to expect above you01:59
tychotrip0: So what does it run on now02:00
Proteousit's not something that can be done with wifi02:00
Arkenoii guess there is nothing that prevents one from using gtk applications on meego, right? except some extra resources to be allocated02:00
pytherbut I want to cache the satalite location02:00
pytherso it can establish a gps connection faster02:00
Proteousthey are moving02:00
Proteousin the sky02:00
trip0tycho, they dropped the hildon desktop and gtk from maemo because Qt is a better toolkit02:00
trip0(i'm assuming)02:00
Proteousyou are never under the same set of satalites02:00
tychoAnd do you think they will keep doing linux phones in the future02:01
pytherProteous: then what downloads from the net?02:01
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tychoI feel that it ended and started with n90002:01
Arkenoiagps does not seem to use wifi mac data on any nokia phones02:01
pytherbecause I can get a lock if it downloads "something" from the net02:01
trip0Proteous, arent gps satillites geo-stationary? (they don't move, you do)02:01
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jonwilno, GPS sattelites are not geostationary02:01
Proteousno, it looks at the cell towers to make an approximation of your location to make getting a real GPS lock easier02:02
Proteoustrip0: no02:02
tychohow much open source is MeeGo ?02:02
Arkenoiit does02:02
fenrir_if you backup with maemos own tool to sdcard does the communication and callendar backup Contacts and sms for example ?02:02
Proteoustrip0: a geo-stationary orbit only works in certain places02:02
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Arkenoibut android devices seem to find its position pretty good just by wifi networks available, maemo does not do this trick (nor symbian does)02:03
pytherProteous: so then how do gps devices work that don't have 3G?02:03
Proteousyou don't need 3g for agps02:03
sevardfghjkdhsjahj i cannot find libpcre3 for n810 anywhere :/02:03
SpeedEvilThe orbits are geosynchronous - but not geostationary.02:03
SpeedEvilThey are in a 12 hour orbit - so 24 hours later - you see the same sats02:03
SpeedEvil(if you don't move)02:03
Proteousgeostationary only works at the equator02:04
SpeedEvilFor nonpowered objects. :)02:04
pupnikheh didn't know the period of the north was different than the equator02:04
fenrir_any1 knows ?02:04
pupnik26 hour day? ;)02:04
trip0tycho, is supposed to be completely open source02:04
nox-pupnik, haha02:04
pupniki wonder how europe gets satellite TV, nox-02:05
nox-pupnik, geostationary ofc :)02:05
ProteousArkenoi: there are other tech for doing position via wifi by looking at accesspoints around you and referencing a DB of know access points and their locations02:05
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trip0of course, sometimes closed drivers are required to get hardware working02:05
Proteoussome company called skynet or something02:05
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trip0but all of meego's middleware/apps are open02:05
Proteousgoogle does it too02:05
pytherProteous: so maemo doesn't use agps?02:05
* DocScrutinizer yawns02:05
Proteouspyther: yes it does if you have a connection, but you don't have to use it, just takes longer to get a lock without it02:06
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pupnikwhat's that new peer-to-peer phone network called02:06
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tychop2p phone network?02:07
Proteousaw, I was going to make that joke02:07
DangerMausim a gonna shoot the laptop in a moment it not getting online it was on yesterday no prombs nothing changed02:07
Proteousdamn you SpeedEvil02:07
pytherProteous: I guess I'm confused because with my gps unit I can download updates to get a lock faster02:07
sevarduthis is cool02:08
* SpeedEvil feels famous.02:08
* SpeedEvil wrote 90% of that page.02:08
Proteousso why aren't you ansering these questions!02:08
trip0famous, yes. lazy, yes02:09
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SpeedEvilProteous: Because I had something more important to do.02:09
Proteoussure sure02:09
pytherProteous: so does anything get downloaded from the net?02:09
SpeedEvilI did!02:09
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, isn't everyone famous in an open source community?02:09
SpeedEvilI was picking my nose.02:09
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Proteouspyther: ask SpeedEvil :)02:11
Proteousor read the wikipedia page...02:11
GAN900MohammadAG, yes.02:11
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* MohammadAG wants the symbian keypad sound02:12
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pytherProteous: ok so how do I download the datat fro the assitant server?02:13
ProteousI don't belive that the n900 uses the "MS_assisted" part of agps02:13
pytherhmm I do know that it connects to my wifi connection and downloads something02:14
Proteousso you can't do what you want02:15
Proteouseven though other GPS devices have the function02:15
Proteousbut don't take my word for it02:15
ProteousI don't know exectly what features the agps on the n900 uses02:15
Proteousthe internet can probably tell you though02:15
Proteousit knows all02:15
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DocScrutinizerpyther: google is your friend, and SpeedEvil even more, as he wrote such nice webpage. And if that's still not enough, here's even more:
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SpeedEvilYeah - that's the link I always give out - it's good stuff - all you need to impleemnte a GPS reciever.02:22
SpeedEvilAnd actually not too hard to read.02:22
SpeedEvilWell - until you hit the data format descriptors.02:22
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DocScrutinizerthat's ISI though02:24
pupnikPaki intelligence eh02:25
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pupnikbad joke Re ISI02:26
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jonwilGive me the dev headers I need and I can really bust things open in all sorts of fun-and-community-benefiting-ways02:30
jonwilbtw, I am now 99% sure that the Cell Broadcast code in the SMS stack is broken02:31
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jonwilThe issue I have seen is to do with the info_length field in the SMS_GSM_CB_MESSAGE subblock structure02:32
jonwilThe docs say "Value 255 indicates that this parameter should be ignored"02:33
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luke-jrjonwil: keep in mind that N900 cellmo is DRM'd02:33
jonwilIts not the cell modem, its the application stack02:33
jonwilThere is code in libsms that says "if info_length = 255, <some field in another data structure> = 0, else <some field> = info_length"02:34
* Arkenoi wonders if sim toolkit interface is possible on n90002:34
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SpeedEvilPossible - if nokia coded it - but no.02:35
SpeedEvilIt depends on the deep bits of the modem supporting it, and they reportedly on't02:35
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jonwilThen there is other code in libcsd-sms that passes the value from that other data structure up to CSD-SMS as the length of an array02:35
jonwilso whats happening is that if the value of info_length is 255 (which it is on the cell broadcast messages I am seeing in my tests), the IncomingCBS signal is being passed an empty array02:36
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SpeedEvilCan you intercept the communication?02:37
SpeedEvilIs there anything like iptables/02:37
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jonwilThere is no way to get into libsms or libcsd-sms directly. I am about to outline all the options (however unlikely they may be) for fixes02:38
jonwilThere are several options for a fix: 1.Binary patch one byte in to solve the problem (not really a practical option for obvious reasons). 2.Hope Nokia can release a fixed binary (wont happen) 3.Hope nokia can release source code to libsms (wont happen)02:39
jonwil4.Write something that clones and replaces just the CBSMS parts of the stack and solves the issue02:40
jonwil5.Clone and replace all of libsms or libcsd-sms or both02:40
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timelessArkenoi: nokia didn't implement sim toolkit02:40
timelessyou could waste resources doing it02:40
timelessbut ime, that stuff's just crap02:40
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timelessand should really just die02:41
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jonwilFor option #4 to work, I would need to write a totally new daemon just for cell broadcast SMS (and totally new isi interface code and stuff to match) if I cant figure out how to talk to the existing stuff02:42
SpeedEvilI don't think you can implement sim toolkit withotu modem-side code02:43
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SpeedEviljonwil: Why isbinary patch bad?02:43
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jonwilI just dont feel comfortable binary patching a shipping binary02:43
SpeedEvilmd5sum it first02:44
jonwilits not that02:44
SpeedEvilI know.02:44
SpeedEvilSide effects02:44
SpeedEvilAnd ...02:44
jonwilyeah side effects such as messing up what the package manager thinks is installed02:44
jonwilhence why I dont want to do it02:45
jonwilIf I had the dev packages (or reverse engineered function definitions) for the right APIs, I could have Cell Broadcast up and running within a week02:46
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DocScrutinizerSAT/STK also is really hard to implement on an archotecture like N900, as SAT needs *full* exclusive access to screen and kbd afaik02:46
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SpeedEvilIt just means you need to have a special screen with a picture of a dumbphone on, andmeans of checking you're on top.02:47
ArkenoiDocScrutinizer, why?02:47
dotCOMmieI'm trying automate setting of DNS on PPTP. The PPTP server does not provide DNS properly so I usually put in and ip-up.local script02:47
Arkenoitimeless, sim toolkit is useful sometimes02:47
DocScrutinizerArkenoi: because that's what SAT is doing02:47
dotCOMmieMy understanding is that dnsmasq is supposed to poll resolve files and use the last modified one02:48
dotCOMmiethis doesn't seem to work. Polling and SIGHUP do not update dnsmasq02:48
dotCOMmieAm I missing something?02:49
jonwilYou could kill and restart dnsmasq02:49
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dotCOMmieAlso I can't seem to find the init script. What manages dnsmasq?02:50
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DocScrutinizerdotCOMmie: have you checked events.d?02:50
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dotCOMmienot very familiar with it do you know of the top how to restart a service in event.d?02:52
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dotCOMmiehmm restarting doesn't help either02:57
jonwilSpecifically I would ideally want to have csd-sms-dev, libisi-dev, libisi-glib-dev, libsms-dev, csd-plugin-dev, libsms-utils-dev, and dev headers for the connectivity UI shared libraries (libconnui etc). But if Nokia wont release these headers then I will have to hope someone can help me reverse engineer the needed APIs...02:58
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jonwilfinding decent tools, resources and tutorials for ARM reverse engineering is much harder than it is for x86 :(03:03
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SpeedEvilWrite one!03:03
jonwilI dont have the skills to come up with such a thing03:04
jonwilif I had the skills, I wouldn't need tutorials03:04
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jonwilif I had tutorials I could get the skills03:04
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dotCOMmieI got it. Permissions were wrong03:08
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pupnikppl seem to have forgotten, microsoft IS hellspawn03:09
timelesserr, microsoft is a business03:11
timelesspart of a business is ensuring a customer base03:11
timelesspart of that involves providing tools to encourage developers to provide products to fulfill needs of those customers03:12
timelessmicrosoft does this03:12
timelessnokia isn't familiar with this "ecosystem" concept03:12
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timeless(nokia has spent a year trying to evangelize ecosystems but ...)03:12
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pupnikyour point is taken, but MS is hellspawn, for reasons I won't repeat :)03:13
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trip0engadget sucks03:14
trip0wtf is an "ecosystem"?03:15
togglesfor sale: n900, only washed onced, oc'd ever since, send offers.03:15
SpeedEviltrip0: It's what trolls grow in.03:15
trip0i think when nokia/google/apple says "ecosystem" they really mean "zoo"03:17
trip0"this is where the lions are kept"03:17
trip0"this is where the monkeys are caged"03:17
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trip0"this is where we keep the developers"03:18
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jonwilok, it looks like all my work on SMS-CB is not going to advance forward unless Nokia releases some dev packages or unless someone with ARM skills comes forward and can help me reverse engineer the stuff I need03:19
SpeedEvilThanks for what progress you've made - at least it's information as to what's possible.03:20
SpeedEvilAnd that it doesn't require modem hacking03:20
DocScrutinizerdotCOMmie: stop <service>; start <service>03:20
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jonwilFinding people with ARM skills is hard :(03:26
SpeedEvilHave you asked over on #edev?03:27
dotCOMmieDocScrutinizer: thanks03:28
jonwilthere is no such channel03:28
timelesstrip0: an ecosystem is a place which has customers, hardware to host software, a place to provide software for the hardware, and a story for developers to build software for the hardware03:28
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timelesstrip0: the ecosystem can be of varying degrees of openness03:29
timelessone could probably describe apple's as the most "closed"03:29
timeless(or least open)03:29
jonwil#edev doesnt exist03:29
timelesshistorically,, although people wouldn't believe it, microsoft's has been the most open03:29
SpeedEviljonwil: ##03:29
timelessyou can pick your compiler vendor, your language, your toolkit, ...03:30
lofty3062 freekin hours to get this bloody lappie to conect to wifi where nothing had changed03:30
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timelessyou can pick your hardware vendor, your form factor, ....03:30
jonwil##edev doesnt exist either03:30
SpeedEviljonwil: no - actually - one #03:30
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jonwilneither channel exists03:30
jonwilnow I found it03:30
timeless(note that when i say "microsoft", i don't mean winmo, i mean windows proper)03:30
timelessandroid is newer, and is slightly more open than apple, but isn't really particularly open03:31
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nox-ok looks like my wifi powersaving issue was the ap's fault afterall...03:36
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pupnikcan you explain a bit nox- ?03:38
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pupnikmy ap has two settings for that03:38
nox-n900 often `missed' beacon frames and then repeatedly sent probe requests, reason was wifi driver bug on the `ap'03:39
nox-powersave code was just missing :)03:40
timelessthat'd do it (:03:41
nox-indeed :)03:41
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nox-i'll just have to watch if the probe requests reappear for maybe another reason but im pretty sure this was the only problem :)03:47
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nox-at least i get less packet loss now too...03:47
SpeedEvilCongrats. Did you manage to update the router?03:48
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nox-router is a freebsd box, applied patch to driver module, reloaded it and restarted hostapd :)03:49
nox-(the n900 is the only thing that uses wifi here...)03:49
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pupnikPh'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl!   :D04:23
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BallmermanEvenin' folks05:05
BallmermanWhat's in store for maemo/ meego?05:06
BallmermanWindows is a lot easier to code for.05:07
nox-i get less packet loss now but the `driver reports beacon loss' and probe requests are just back...05:10
nox-and again, a traceroute to google's dns stops them05:11
BallmermanWow... Nokia workers walking out in protest??? What is that?05:11
nox-i was talking about a wifi issue... :)05:12
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lofty306oh geez this usb stick has   like 7 parts on it....05:17
lofty306saandisk is silly05:18
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* GeneralAntilles laughs at MohammadAG's Thanks! ratio.06:08
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richardcnklnhi. i just purchased a nokia n800 and wanted some information on where to start with it06:09
richardcnklnanyone on?06:11
doc|homethe button on the top is the power06:11
richardcnklnwell yes i figured that. ive been doing some research on the device but all the info on development ive found is at least 2 years old06:12
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doc|homerichardcnkln: yep, there's been two devices since06:12
doc|homestill usable, I use mine as an alarm clock/mpd client06:12
richardcnklni was wondering if anyone has finished developing drivers for the graphics accelorator in the device06:12
richardcnklnwell i got it to replace an ipod touch and found it at an obscenely low price on ebay06:13
GeneralAntillesNOK is down to $8.84.06:13
richardcnklnlooked up some vids and tho it looks like its going to take more work to get it to do everything it looks like a much more capable system06:13
doc|homewho are the fools? sellers or nok?06:13
GeneralAntillesdoc|home: NOK.06:15
richardcnklnwhat exactly have they done to be fools06:15
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doc|homerichardcnkln: didn't hear? they're going to use windows rubbish 7 from now on.06:16
GeneralAntillesand they're stuffing MeeGo Devices back in the closet.06:16
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: that for definite now?06:17
GeneralAntillesdoc|home: well, specifics are uncertain.06:17
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GeneralAntillesBut moving it to a pure R&D project for "future disruptions" sure doesn't sound useful.06:17
GeneralAntilles"Welcome to the 770, sans the hope for the future."06:17
richardcnklnyeah i saw the dev sites for meego anbd mer and a fewother projects. its disappointing that they arent going to continue them06:19
richardcnklnthis windows phone 7 wont last tho06:19
doc|homerichardcnkln: neither will nokia...06:19
richardcnklnthey are trying to get into the market where android and iphone are the top dogs06:19
richardcnklnit wont work06:19
richardcnklnnot when they are quite a ways behind them06:20
richardcnklnperhaps nokia is making some poor decisions atm06:20
GeneralAntillesMeeGo could've done that.06:20
GeneralAntillesIf they weren't as agile as a wounded elephant.06:20
richardcnklnbut they are a solid company with a good reputation06:21
richardcnklni dont see how they could waste that too quickly for them to recognize those mistakes06:21
doc|homerichardcnkln: introducing a microsoft exec is a good way to start...06:21
richardcnklni did a little research on meego06:22
richardcnklnif it was developed properly i suppose it could compete with android06:22
GeneralAntillesIt could beat Android06:22
richardcnklnif the google giant wasnt behind android06:22
GeneralAntillesMore open, more useful06:22
GeneralAntillesBetter backing06:22
richardcnklnbut i didnt see any ways in which meego was clearly better than android06:22
GeneralAntillesTargeting more market segments, so it'd have a larger ecosystem.06:22
GeneralAntillesWhen your TV, your car, your phone and your laptop all work seamlessly together, well. . . .06:23
GeneralAntillesrichardcnkln, no?06:23
GeneralAntillesHow about real toolkits?06:23
GeneralAntillesActually Open Source?06:23
richardcnklntrue. as a matter of fact isnt bmw still going to use meego06:23
GeneralAntillesNot designed to facilitate operator lockdown?06:23
richardcnklni havent seen anything to the contrary06:23
GeneralAntillesGM, too, I believe.06:23
GeneralAntillesThough I doubt most of their executives have heard Nokia went WP7.06:24
richardcnklnthat sounds like something someone would have told them06:24
richardcnklnand anyways meego being open source06:24
richardcnklnits possible it could continue to be developed and perhaps adopted by bmw and gm06:25
pupnikThanks, failop06:25
GeneralAntillesAnd Intel06:25
GeneralAntillesand TI06:25
GeneralAntillesEtc, etc.06:25
GeneralAntillesBut Nokia leaving is going to slow things down.06:25
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richardcnklnand as for the devices nokia has already put out06:26
richardcnklnbeing such an open device its entirely possible to jump to many other linux distros with further development06:27
richardcnklntho i havent seen many good ones06:27
GeneralAntillesEspecially not for mobile devices.06:28
luke-jrrichardcnkln: lol?06:28
pupnikwould be nice to have one hot ghz-class phone with meego06:29
pupnikwith 512MB06:29
luke-jr"such an open device"… a whole 45% open!06:29
pupnik:) luke-jr06:29
luke-jrrichardcnkln: where are the other OS going to get video drivers?06:29
richardcnklnmost of that dev seems to be going to porting android :(06:29
richardcnklnmobile or not. u guys are lucky with the nokia internet tablets06:29
richardcnklnwith most of the portable devices ive put linux on the big barrier has been the fact that there was no mmu onboard06:29
richardcnklnthe nokia internet tablets have mmu's06:29
richardcnklnnot sure i understand that question06:29
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GeneralAntillesluke-jr: compared to the rest of the market.06:30
richardcnklnive seen debian, web os, and android ported to the internet tablets06:30
luke-jrrichardcnkln: everything has a MMU now.06:30
richardcnklnpsp doesnt06:30
richardcnklnand only with the ipod touch did ipods have mmu's06:30
richardcnklnand palm pilots dont06:30
richardcnklnas a matter of fact i believe when the nokia n770 came out it was one of the only portable devices with an mmu06:31
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pupnikand 800x48006:34
richardcnklnvery true06:34
richardcnklnthe screen on those things still amazes me06:34
pupnikppl didn't believe they were seeing it back then06:35
richardcnklnstill looks good06:35
richardcnklnsaw many reviews comparing it to even the current gen ipod touch06:35
richardcnklnit is better06:35
richardcnklntho a little slower06:35
richardcnklnthe 800 is better06:35
richardcnklnthe 770 is a little harder to do stuff06:36
* lofty306 still carries a 770 sometimes06:36
GeneralAntillesThe 770 hardware is so purty.06:36
pupnik770 does my hi-fi stereo streaming duties now06:36
richardcnklni mean its still kind of cool06:36
GeneralAntillesI love the cover.06:36
lofty306but mostly it runs like carman in the truck06:36
richardcnklnyeah i still think the 770 looks cooler than the 80006:37
richardcnklnwish the internals of those things were as modable as the software06:37
lofty306and bounces nicely with the cover on round the cab offroading06:37
richardcnklnif only we could drop in a better processor06:37
richardcnklnmaybe some more ram06:37
pupnikas soon as you try rendering websites, your wants go way up06:38
lofty306what i dont like bout the 900 is it got smaller06:38
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richardcnklni really dont have problems rendering websites on the 80006:39
nox-Temple1 flyby coverage on nasatv06:39
nox-(ot :)06:39
richardcnklntho ive only had it for a few days it seems to run just as well as the ipod touch06:39
richardcnklna little more jerky when scrolling06:40
richardcnklnbut the page still looks good06:40
richardcnklnbetter in fact06:40
lofty306which one?06:40
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richardcnklnim running a nokia n80006:41
richardcnklnjust bought it06:41
lofty306i still want one of them06:41
richardcnkln50 bucks on ebay06:41
richardcnklnyeah its ridiculous06:41
lofty306thats even les s than i got the 770 for06:42
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richardcnklni saw a 770 with a buy it now price of 35 dollars06:42
richardcnklnthe 810 is quite a bit more expensive06:42
richardcnklnbut when i did the research the functionality of the units didnt looks different06:43
richardcnklnsame speed and memory06:43
richardcnklnjust with a keyboard on the 81006:43
lofty306err that is the one i want06:43
richardcnklnthats like 12006:44
wmaronethe 770 and 810 have different processors06:44
richardcnklntho i saw a few listings on the maemo talk boards u could check out06:44
luke-jrrichardcnkln: 770 was not the first internet tablet.06:44
richardcnklnyes i was reffering to the 810 and the 80006:44
luke-jryour MMU-less devices were never really meant to be computers06:44
richardcnklnthe 770 is a 250mhz processor right?06:45
luke-jrjust like portable microwaves06:45
luke-jr770 was a joke IMO06:45
pupnikcrazy that a 25mhz processor used to be a 'workstation' (NeXT)06:45
luke-jreven when it was announced, it was below spec06:45
richardcnklnwell for desktops a 250mhz processor used to be great06:45
richardcnklngo find one and run windows 98 on it06:45
richardcnklnit speeds through stuff perfectly fine06:46
richardcnklnunless u open internet06:46
pupnikit's those damn websites06:46
richardcnklnthe future kind of hit those things hard :)06:46
pupnikthe internet turned into a bloated sack of protoplasm06:46
luke-jrit's abstraction06:46
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richardcnklni used to tell people that an old p4 computer would be perfectly fine to suite their needs if they didnt play games06:47
luke-jrI used to run Gentoo on 800 MHz :p06:47
richardcnklnthe internet is a hog for processor and memory06:47
ds3the old P4 is sufficient06:47
lofty306gentoo on a 200mmx06:47
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luke-jrno, P4 sucked06:47
luke-jrP3 may be sufficient06:47
luke-jrbut not P406:47
richardcnklni give u respect for running gentoo on anything06:47
lofty306but not anymore06:47
ds3an old 500MHz mobile celery was more then enough06:47
richardcnklnu got to mean the other way around06:47
richardcnklnp3 was 500mhz to 1ghz06:47
luke-jrrichardcnkln: now I run Gentoo on i5-2400, N810, and N90006:47
luke-jrrichardcnkln: P3 at 1 GHz was faster than P4 at 2 GHz06:48
richardcnklnand p4 was 1ghz to, i believe, 2.8ghz06:48
luke-jryes, but P4 "GHz" were SLOW06:48
richardcnklnhows that n810 run gentoo?06:48
luke-jrrichardcnkln: slonopotamus and I ported it06:48
luke-jrrequires a microSD for disk space ofc06:48
richardcnklni mean is the performance good06:48
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luke-jrnot really06:49
richardcnklncompared to the included maemo06:49
luke-jrthe biggest problem is lack of RAM06:49
richardcnklntry dsl06:49
richardcnklndamn small linuz06:49
lofty306or puppy06:49
richardcnklnyeah that would work too06:49
richardcnklnbut DSL will run on the included sd card :)06:49
richardcnklnits like 50mb06:50
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lofty306did they ever get the BT/ketboard stuff fixed wwith the 900? i havent been able to liiink up to my kb for a long long timee havent tried  in a long tiime06:51
luke-jrrichardcnkln: DSL is crap06:52
luke-jrrichardcnkln: but KDE barely loads in the 128 MB RAM06:52
luke-jrso I ended up using console mode most of the time06:52
richardcnklnit is expandable just like any other linux06:52
luke-jrKDE is KDE on Gentoo or DSL06:52
luke-jrDSL won't make it run any better06:53
lofty306christ that pig06:53
richardcnklnum i believe that dls uses a completelydifferent gui than kde or gnome06:53
richardcnklndont remember which let me look06:53
luke-jralso, unlike N900, N810 is too closed for another OS to really run right06:53
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ds3what OS would you want to run?06:55
ds3KDE is not exactly designed for a TS06:55
luke-jrGentoo KDE/GNU/Linux06:56
richardcnklnhmm thats an interesting question. i get those os's to run just for the sake of tinkering06:56
richardcnklnnone of them really work right06:56
luke-jrTS can be mouse position, and a button for clicks06:56
richardcnklnbut if i had to choose it would be maemo06:56
ds3there aren't many OS"s really designed for TS's w/o keyboards06:56
luke-jrN810 and N900 have keyboards06:57
richardcnklnor if i could get it to run right id love to have a tiny windows 98 tablet :)06:57
luke-jrrichardcnkln: btw, did you ever hear of the Zaurus SL-C* line?06:57
richardcnklnsaw those06:57
ds3richardcnkln: go further back and make a Win 3.x tablet06:57
ds3aka windows for pen computing06:57
richardcnklnthey do lok cool06:57
richardcnklni couldnt find one for sale at a reasonable price06:57
ds3the Z's are nice06:57
richardcnklni have windows 3.1 running on my sony psp06:58
richardcnklnwith dosbox06:58
richardcnklnruns well but honestly what can u do with 3.106:58
pupniki drag puppies behind my car06:58
richardcnklnif u like the zaurus line u should look at the fujitsu tablets06:58
richardcnklnfull pc's basically06:58
ds3The stylistic line?06:58
richardcnklnthe fujitsu c500 came loaded with windows 200006:59
ds3pupnik: one at a time or an entire liter? ;)06:59
richardcnklnsaw one on ebay close out at 95 bucks06:59
ds3you can get a Stylistic S1000 for $2506:59
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richardcnklnhavent seen that one07:00
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ds3I'll sell you one for $35 + shipping (to cover my tax/shipping costs) =)07:01
ds3been on the market for a while07:01
richardcnklnlet me go look up the specs and i may take u up on that07:02
ds3it is a 486DX4-10007:02
ds3RF pen; PCMCIA HD and extra PCMCIA slots07:03
richardcnklnwell as cool as that would be07:03
richardcnklnto just play with07:03
richardcnklni dont think i have money i can just throw at that07:03
ds3it is a nice little machine; probally on the order of a 77007:03
ds3I have a spare one since one vendor was selling the car charger version for $2507:03
ds3it is there if you wanna plan with it =)07:04
richardcnklni cant believe something like that came out in 199607:04
pupnikds3: actually i've seen people walking their dogs with their cars before - twice07:04
ds3they are nice but $$$$ new07:04
richardcnklnmust have been pretty futuristic to see back then07:04
ds3pupnik: at 60mph? shouldn't that be walking their cheataus?07:05
lofty306pupnik, that workss till you forget the dog is there07:05
pupniklazy bums07:05
richardcnklnits close07:05
richardcnklnbut nopt quite fast enough to do anything interesting with07:05
lofty306i've walked horses with a p-up but sombody is onthe taillgate holding the leash07:06
richardcnklnwould prolly have a hard time even getting it to play music07:06
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richardcnklni never did get an answer to my original question. did they ever get the power vbr graphics chip drivers for the n800 and n81007:09
richardcnklnif i could get that thing running this tablet would be a lot cooler07:09
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ds3depends on your needs; tablets have lots of uses07:09
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pupniktablet makes a nice thing on the side of the pc/laptop to let music/videos run on07:13
pupnikespecially the archos 7.0 with built-in stand07:13
pupnikstill haven't got meego on it tho07:13
richardcnklnha the archos07:13
richardcnklnwith the crippled marketplace07:14
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richardcnklntho if u wanted one of those did u know archos just released an internet table for less than 100 bucks07:14
richardcnklnlook ath the archos 2807:14
pupnikhow big is it07:14
richardcnklnalot smaller than u would want07:15
pupnikyeah but it's a nice price07:15
richardcnkln2.8 inches07:15
ds3other apps besides media playing07:16
ds3and android blows chunks07:16
lofty306hmmm n900  then a tablet to replace the netbook for coontent you actualy have to read07:18
luke-jrrichardcnkln: back in the day they were new, $800 was pretty reasonable for a Zaurus :P07:18
ds3but finding a decent OS for the tablet is tricky07:18
luke-jrlofty306: integrated projector <.<07:18
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ds3the N900 really needs a bigger battery though07:19
lofty306i just turn off 3g whem im not actually using it and the batt is thee for days07:19
luke-jrlofty306: me too, but that drastically kills usefulness07:20
lofty306not in my pocket07:20
luke-jrhalf the point is to be on IM 24/7 anywhere07:20
ds3Mapper + GPS + GSM only seems to last less then 12 hours on a charge07:21
lofty306it ended for me when it kept waking me up at all hours07:21
richardcnklnwhat are the internal specs for the n900?07:22
richardcnklnive only got a lowly n80007:22
lofty306well when they have induction chargers everywhere adn everything charges that way or they extend the range of induction charging  we'' be set07:23
richardcnklninduction charging is so innefficient07:24
lofty306better for cooking07:24
richardcnklnnichola tesla already had it down in the early 1900's07:24
ds3better to have dedicated charger ports07:24
lofty306one of thease days i'll drop my sisters isomething on the induction cooktop and see if it explodess07:25
lofty306its realy old tech07:25
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Sazpaimon[00:24] <lofty306>
ds3or prehaps refillable direct ethanol fuel cells07:26 still exists?07:26
Sazpaimonafter all these years07:27
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Sazpaimonthat's comical07:27
lofty306i thought so when it popped up first for specs07:27
Sazpaimonmore money went into than any advertising for the n900 at all07:28
lofty306thought it was comical i mean07:28
pupnikds3: i agree, i was a heavy user and went through 2-3 batteries a day07:28
lofty306yeah nokia dont seem to advertise too much anything07:29
lofty306i go through the n900 in a few hours it lives on the charger at work07:30
pupnikand it really looks like there was space for a bp-4l with 1500mAh07:30
Sazpaimonhonestly they could have made a commercial with penguins shooting lasers from their eyes07:30
Sazpaimonand just showed the N900 at the very last second07:30
ds3pupnik: I tried out a Borohydride cell this weekend and it was disappointing for the volume07:30
luke-jrds3: lol? GSM alone lasts only 4 hours at best07:30
luke-jradd GPS and you're probably down to 1-2 hours07:30
Sazpaimoni would have bought it in an instant07:30
ds3luke-jr: I keep the screen off.07:30
luke-jrds3: so do I07:30
lofty306ass do i07:30
luke-jrSazpaimon: of course, everyone would buy one if Nokia spent more money false advertising07:30
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pupnikdo you think a 4-row keyboard would have made it too top-heavy?07:31
luke-jractually, N900 would probably be considered awesome by the average idiot, if it worked like it claimed07:31
ds3luke-jr: I guess I shouldn't complain too much. I was logging a multiday train trip and was seeing about 10-12 hours07:31
lofty306hmm its about to die only using it like 7h today no calls07:31
luke-jrdespite being non-free07:31
jonwilcool, I found code for maemosec* libraries07:31
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pupnikthe mechanics are so top-notch... slide mechanism never seems to wear out07:32
Sazpaimonluke-jr, the average idiot would hate the n90007:32
Sazpaimonsince it was built around power users like you and I07:32
ds3it needs a DPAD07:32
lofty306it would be not shiny ensfgh for them07:32
luke-jrSazpaimon: and the dedicated nerd hates it too. yet people like it, supposedly07:32
ds3what would be nice to see is getting Maemo running on the Motorola Droid HW07:32
ds3it should be pretty close HW wise07:33
pupniki haven't missed a dpad at all07:33
luke-jrds3: LOL, hw is the *only* thing I care about07:33
krayonds3: I have a game gripper for mine, works OK07:33
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luke-jrds3: anyhow, keep dreaming07:33
Sazpaimonwhy has nobody bothered porting maemo to other devices? is it because the UI is closed?07:33
ds3pupnik: what software do you mostly run on the N900?07:33
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luke-jrSazpaimon: because Maemo is not open source07:33
pupniktoo much to list07:33
ds3luke-jr: a nice GSM droid hw w/Maemo UI should work quite nicely07:34
Sazpaimoni thought maemo had a code repository07:34
pupnikwhat do you use a dpad for ds3 ?07:34
luke-jrSazpaimon: 45% of it is free software. I wonder what % of Mac OS X is free?07:34
ds3pupnik: Mapper uses it quite nicely07:34
pupnikthe 4-way arrow keys work fine for me07:34
ds3pupnik: I want the arrows to be exposed with the kb closed07:34
Sazpaimonluke-jr, I was under the impression that the OS itself was open, my mistake07:35
ds3pupnik: I have it in a mount in a vehicle07:35
jonwilGood luck getting Maemo or MeeGo running on the Motorola Milestone07:35
jonwilThey havent even gotten a kernel to boot except maybe via kexec07:35
jonwilthanks to the bootloader locks07:35
luke-jrSazpaimon: MeeGo was "supposed" to fix that.07:36
ds3krayon: who makes that?07:36
jonwilMotorola are one of the least open cellphone companies07:36
luke-jrjonwil: get a Linux developer to sue :p07:36
ds3early Droids were relatively unlocked07:36
lofty306it was haard to even get source outta motorola  when they had  to release it07:36
jonwilkernel is GPLv207:37
Sazpaimonluke-jr, MeeGo DOES fix that alread i believe. The majority of the core code is open07:37
jonwilso they dont have to let you use new kernels07:37
luke-jrjonwil: GPLv2 defines "source code" such that it includes signing keys. GPLv3 adds an exception for non-required keys07:37
luke-jrtherefore, if they don't release the signing key, it's infringement07:37
SazpaimonI'm sure nokia's UX would have been closed source anyway07:38
krayonds3: Some guy.  I purchased it from his Google store... sadly there's a flash website now ( ) but the old store is still available ( )07:38
krayonds3: Not bad for $15 US.07:39
pupnikds3: you know what might be better for such stuff - one of those track-sensors on the face - takes up no space and isn't visually obtrusive07:39
krayonds3: But still has to have the keyboard open so no good for you if you want it shut :P07:39
jonwilso how come we haven't seen kernel devs going after people to get signing keys and unlocked hardware?07:39
ds3Krayon: oh, it is mechanical, not electrical interface?07:41
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krayonds3: Yeah it fits over the keys and presses them :/07:41
ds3pupnik: there is the front camera07:42
krayonds3: Having said that, any of the cheap bluetooth keyboards on ebay could be used.07:42
jonwilas of right now there are 9 bits of closed source code in meego-on-n90007:42
krayonds3: There's some pretty cheap teeny tiny ones.07:42
ds3krayon: that's another thing to charge07:42
ds3I have a tiny one from the 800 days07:43
jonwilmake that 10 or so07:43
jonwilbme,libbmeipc,libcal,some pulseaudio bits,sysinfod,the sgx drivers,wifi firmware,bluetooth firmware,wl1251-cal plus the cellmo firmware07:43
jonwilthere is more that will likely appear before the meego-on-n900 work is finished though07:43
jonwillike GPS07:43
jonwiland camera07:43
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dm8tbrI remember reading yesterday that someone got GPS working under MeeGo07:44
jonwilI know Nokia have said they are simply going to port the Maemo GPS stack to MeeGo (which would then remain closed source) as the easiest way to get GPS up and running07:45
jonwilwith the least amount of work07:46
jonwilthey may also have legitimate reasons to want to keep GPS closed (specifically the stuff to do with AGPS and talking to the noika AGPS server)07:46
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dotblankI don't think its specific within nokia07:47
dotblankfor apgps07:47
dotblankbecause you can replace the server with googles one07:47
luke-jrjonwil: the same reason kernel devs are too scared to go after nvidia07:47
luke-jrjonwil: they're cowards :P07:48
luke-jrjonwil: I reverse engineered the N900 GPS stuff a long time ago07:48
jonwilnot AGPS07:49
luke-jralso, there is no such thing as a legitimate reason to keep stuff closed07:49
luke-jrN900 AGPS was just this year released in public docs ☺07:49
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jonwilwhat public docs?07:49
luke-jrdunno, ask in #meego-arm07:50
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ieatlintok, it's late and i'm tired... someone sanity check this for me: int x=0; x^=1; x == 1 then x^=1; x==0;?07:58
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jacekowskijonwil: nokia agps servers are standard agps servers08:33
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jacekowskijonwil: just delivering quick fix data over http i believe08:33
jacekowskinothing fancy08:33
jacekowskiieatlint: what?08:34
ieatlintto toggle x between 0 and 1...  int xor 1 can be used right?08:35
jacekowskibut it will only work if you know previous value of 008:36
slonopotamusx = !x, no? :)08:36
ieatlintyeah, x = !x works, but it's logical08:36
ieatlintand apparently java gets very upset with me for trying to do a logical not operation on a char08:37
ieatlint(and yes, there is a good reason i'm using a char and not a boolean)08:37
jacekowskitry unsigned char08:37
slonopotamusjacekowski: he said java. no unsigned types there08:37
ieatlint"The operator ! is undefined for the argument type(s) char"08:38
ieatlinti feel dirty08:38
ieatlintjava bad08:38
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slonopotamusieatlint: x = ( x == 0 ) ? 1 : 008:39
slonopotamusand add a cast if required08:40
ieatlintyeah, that's another option, but without being an over-optimisation weenie, that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations08:40
RST38hslono: x=!x; will do08:41
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slonopotamusRST38h: java, x is a char08:41
ieatlintrepeating those in order to do the tests is bleh, especially when memory serves me that an xor can handle it08:41
RST38hah shit08:41
ieatlintyeah :(08:41
ieatlintjava :(08:41
slonopotamusieatlint: "that method still has the issue that my referencing of the char array is 2 math operations" wut?08:41
ieatlintslonopotamus: bitStream[ ( i + x ) - offset ]08:43
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ieatlintrepeating that to do the test... eh.. if there's a better way, i'll go with it08:43
slonopotamusieatlint: those who care about performance, do not use java :)08:43
ieatlintindeed... and there's a reason i've never touched java before yesterday08:44
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slonopotamusieatlint: and don't forget about premature optimization08:44
ieatlintyeah, that was my comment about being an over-optimisation weenie...08:44
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slonopotamusieatlint: however, java has JIT that is capable of doing nice optimization tricks. so just write your code :)08:45
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ieatlinti'm a c guy.. that is how i normally write code :P08:46
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dotblankvery cool09:25
dotblankThank god there is still intel09:25
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ieatlintheh, we'll see... the meego conference is supposed to be in about 3 months, and the registration and cfp have been pushed back again... if they cancel the conference, meego is dead... if they don't... well, we'll see09:26
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ieatlintpressing story09:29
ieatlintbleh, damnit09:29
ieatlintstupid touchpad clicking09:29
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smharI have made a backup using the backup app in N900 and the file is 13mb -only- . I have around 700 contacts and loads of sms, is this size correct or is the backup missing something?09:49
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ruskiesmhar, well did you check all the options?09:57
ruskiealso 700 contacts and smses that are limited to 180 chars doesn't really seem that odd09:57
smharruskie, yes, I checked all the options. I am planning to upgrade to PR1.3 and I want to make sure I have a full backup, just in case. I am note sure if the Backup app covers everything09:58
ruskiedepends on what you mean by everything ;)09:59
smharI do not know, I am copying all the ebooks manually, what else? will  copying /home cover all?10:00
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ruskiehmm... /home/user should... but watch out for MyDocs that is huge...10:03
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ruskiethe stuff in /home/opt should be encoded for reinstall in case of issues10:04
ruskieerm... by that I meant the backup should have covered it10:04
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alteregoNOK swtock?10:46
pupnikif you want to buy-and-hold for 10 years this wouldn't be a bad time10:46
tybolltthe stock is racing?10:46
pupniktook about 10 years for apple to capitalize on NeXT's tech10:47
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alteregopupnik: things should move a lot quicker nowadays? :)10:48
DocScrutinizertook about 3h for NOK to gain 10ct10:49
MohammadAGmight get the motorola atrix10:50
pupniki'm not saying then=now, but that a recovery can take that long10:50
MohammadAGbut android sucks :/10:50
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tybolltMohammadAG: true that10:50
tybolltsince I moved to android there is no end to the suffering :-/10:50
MohammadAGspecs are nice though10:51
MohammadAGwould be cool to get debian and hildon-desktop on it10:51
pupnikit doesn't seem very fun to me10:51
tybolltwell that's the point10:52
pupnikyou can do some things as non-root but not so much10:52
tybolltwouldn't meego had been run on the snapdragon eventually anyhow?10:52
MohammadAGerror: qbluetoothserviceinfo.h: No such file or directory uhh10:52
MohammadAGit's a snapdragon?10:52
tybolltehr no it is not, sorry :)10:52
MohammadAGMeeGo should run on anything10:52
MohammadAGwhether MeeGo succeeds or fails is up to intel, and the community10:53
pupnikwho has played with steelrat?10:53
tybolltMohammadAG: Does intel have a vested interest to make it work on !x86? :-S10:53
MohammadAGdoes Qt Mobility 1.2 on the N900 include the connectivity API?10:54
smharis updated enough that I can use to upgrade my N900 to PR1.3?10:54
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alteregoMohammadAG: should do.10:56
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MohammadAGthen I either messed up, or it doesn't :/10:56
alteregoHrm, no, no packages in -devel :/10:56
alteregoI'd expect to see qtm-12-connectivity10:57
alteregoMaybe ping the author MohammadAG?10:57
alteregoMaintainer should I say10:57
MohammadAG~seen achipa10:57
infobotachipa <~attila@Maemo/community/council/achipa> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 17h 50m 48s ago, saying: 'it's like saying a swiss army knife is crappy because the tools are small...'.10:57
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DocScrutinizersounds quite reasonable11:01
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alteregoYes, I agree11:04
alteregoshame there is not more11:04
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tybolltwho is creating nokiapland w/ a pic of wellingtons? :)11:05
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togglesfor sale: n900, only washed onced, oc'd ever since, send offers.. learning java.. ugh..11:12
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DocScrutinizerI'll bid USD0.99, at free shipping only11:13
DocScrutinizersmhar: yes11:15
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togglesDocScrutinizer: if you pick it up in italy it's yours11:17
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toggleslol, nah, i think i'm giving it to a mate who has no money, i'll teach him how to make sip calls on it when i get a nexus..11:18
togglessorry for yanking your chain11:19
DocScrutinizeror, make that 0.99 plus I pay for surface delivery via DHL11:19
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RST38hyo javispedro11:21
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DocScrutinizermoo jacekowski11:24
DocScrutinizeryou as well11:24
DocScrutinizeryou as well11:24
DocScrutinizermeant moo javispedro11:24
JaffaMorning, all11:25
DocScrutinizerlo Jaffa11:25
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* jonwil doubts he will ever be able to figure out all the closed APIs required to support cell broadcast on Maemo :(11:31
* jonwil doubts Nokia is going to provide libisi-dev, libisi-glib-dev or csd-plugin-dev (or anything else) either :(11:31
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lardman~seen Nemno11:35
infobotlardman: i haven't seen 'nemno'11:35
lardmanthanks infobot11:35
infobotlardman: bitte11:35
tybolltinfobot: vielen dank11:36
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markinfomy clock is not accurate, 13 Minutes difference - even there is checked  Option "update automatically" and there si active connection to internet over Wifi.  Is there something missing?  ...I tried to find something like "ntp" in package manager - and there is only OpenNTPD daemon. Must it be installed?11:48
fluxrunning ntpd on the phone might not be the best idea11:49
fluxrather an hourly activation of ntpdate (with drift support) might do the trick11:49
fluxhowever, the clock seems to synchronize to the 3g network for me, so I personally don't have a problem (on n900)11:49
xkr47flux, I have had problems with ntpd in the past on desktops as well11:50
xkr47ntpdate always works :)11:51
markinfoare there some settings for synchronizing of time?  There is only one checkbox in Time settings.  An it does not work probably.11:53
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markinfoon my debian box is installed "NTP" and it makes automatically synchronizing.11:54
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javispedrothe blackberry guys know how to party11:54
javispedrothey have a global system switch for selecting wheter games/apps pause in the background11:55
yacclol, the only "related" companies going up after Nokias suicide try is Google and Apple, ...11:57
RST38hyacc: Wait a bit, too ealry to tell11:57
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yaccRST38h, what's to wait, it's kind like Mercedes would decide stop selling their own cars, and start to license car designs from Opel, ...11:58
KhertanMorning !11:58
Khertanyacc: in fact not really : opel have already a good market share and good products11:59
yaccKhertan, ok, replace that with Kia or Hyundai? Or Lada?11:59
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lofty306wait what did Nokia just do?12:00
jacekowskimarkinfo: that automatic update uses gsm data12:00
yaccRST38h, Phone7 is not exactly a great product that can compete with Android or iOS, ...12:00
jacekowskimarkinfo: and not a lot of providers are sending it12:00
jacekowskiyacc: it is12:00
jacekowskiyacc: it's a lot better than android12:00
Khertanyacc: it s more like mercedes decide to stop making car, and decide to licence Velam Car12:01
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yacclofty306, they decided more or less to ditch Symbian and go with Microsoft Phone as their future, ...12:01
jacekowskiwell, symbian has bad marketing and as that is not recoverable platform12:01
lofty306yacc, old news12:02
jacekowskiwp7 has quite good marketing12:02
Khertanjacekowski: but meego is a good plateform12:02
jacekowskiand is way better than android12:02
Khertanjacekowski: hum ... hum12:02
jacekowskiKhertan: not finished yet12:02
RST38hWell, it may still end up with a miracle12:02
yaccjacekowski, well, they are on the middle on hardware uniformity between Apple and Google, and the hardware specs they force on manufacturer are great, compared with a T-Mobile G1 :-P12:02
Khertanjacekowski: near finished ...12:02
lofty306thought they did something else along the same lines12:02
Khertanjacekowski: wp7 isn't finished too12:02
RST38hBut user-experience-wise, WP7 is a lemon. Not sure how marketing can fix that.12:02
markinfojacekowski, well - it explain that - really even with other simple phone was time by this provider not actualised.12:02
jacekowskiKhertan: well, some people claim that meego will never be finished12:02
yaccjacekowski, compared with a Galaxy SII i9000 or an iPhone 4, not so much.12:02
jacekowskiyacc: there is nothing wrong with having fast cpu12:03
Khertanjacekowski: and from a marketing point of view ... hum ... symbian is still see better than wp712:03
jacekowskiKhertan: i wouldn't be so sure about it12:03
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jacekowskiand symbian is hard for developers12:03
jacekowskiand developers are lazy12:04
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jacekowskiso they prefer java android12:04
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jacekowskior c#/.net wp712:04
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javispedrovirtually all of the mwc tablets are the fscking same.12:04
yaccjacekowski, not sure if you noticed, MS development process basically forces the Phone7 manufacturers in using yesteryear hardware specs, guess top-of-the-line Symbian hardware will have to be downgraded to be allowed to run Phone7, ...12:04
jacekowskiyacc: well, 1Ghz cpu and 512M of ram as minimum12:05
lofty306or rehashed in a yeear or212:05
jacekowskiyacc: that isn't really last year12:05
javispedroeven if theyre not android clones, I would have a hard time telling each os from the other, even with a short video.12:05
lofty306wwith a new skin on it12:05
MohammadAGThe atrix still kicks their ass12:05
jacekowskiyou mean htc?12:05
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MohammadAGdual core 1GHz - some review video said that's 2GHz ... - and 1GB RAM12:06
MohammadAGslap MeeGo on it, or better yet, debian with hildon and it's a win12:06
Khertanjacekowski: wp7 is a mix between the worst part of iOs with the worst part of Android12:06
Khertanjacekowski: closed as iOS12:06
yaccjacekowski, considering that Tegra2 offers 1GHz cores and is the standard for top of the line non Phone equipment, ...12:06
jacekowskiKhertan: bs12:06
Khertanno multitasking12:06
jacekowskiKhertan: it's more open than ios12:06
jacekowskiKhertan: whole .net library is open12:07
KhertanBouarf !12:07
jacekowskiKhertan: you are free to develop on windows/linux/anything12:07
markinfoso the only possibiliy to update time (if the provider does not give it) is to install NTP Daemon?  Does it not stress accu?12:07
Khertanjacekowski: cocoa is also open if you consider .net open12:07
jacekowskinot just on macshit12:07
yaccjacekowski, so how do you install non-MS-approved apps on it?12:07
Khertanjacekowski: you can't develop seriously on linux12:07
yaccmarkinfo, you can also run periodically ntpdate.12:07
jacekowskitackat: same way as on iphone12:08
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markinfo"ntpdate: not found" ...can I log in terminal as root?12:08
jacekowskisudo gainroot12:09
jacekowskiyou just need gainroot or rootsh package before that12:09
yaccjacekowski, let me summarize, the non-technical journalist that reiterate usually press releases are atypically sober on this Nokia crazyness, normally one would expect a firework of positive comments on anything MS related, ...12:09
jacekowskii'm just saying that it's not a bad move nokia made12:10
jacekowskias in they could have done worse12:11
jacekowskilike went android way12:11
Khertanjacekowski: i m not sure android will be worst move12:11
Khertanjacekowski: and i think the wp move was the worst12:11
yaccjacekowski, yeah right, Elop could have gone around himself mining all Nokia property and then pressed the button to vaporize it himself?12:11
markinfoif there is no command ntpdate? even as root?12:11
RST38hAndroid could have been better12:11
Khertanjacekowski: at least on android they could promote qt12:11
tybolltshrug I agree w/ the assesment ellop made; nokia + android == bland...12:11
jacekowskiKhertan: then it wouldn't be android anymore12:12
jacekowskiKhertan: they can do qt on wp7 as well12:12
tybolltnokia should've stuck w/ meego.12:12
* javispedro also thinks "yet another android cloner" would have been suicidal12:12
RST38hAs it provides better user experience than WP7, it is more feature complete, and you can also wrap your own features around Android's core set12:12
Khertanmarkinfo: sudo gainroot then apt-get install openntp12:12
tybolltFinland used to be all about guts... finns have courage.12:12
RST38hjavispedro: Depends on what you do with it12:12
yaccjacekowski, Android would have allowed Nokia at least to keep some identity and to allow it to be customized to some extend. WP makes Nokia just one in a list of hardware sweatshops, ...12:12
tybolltThey've shown now that they don't have that anymore12:12
Khertanjavispedro: but they will not ... this is what they said : use win tools12:12
* dneary wonders when people will stop post-morteming the decision & start looking to what happens next12:12
RST38hjavispedro: For example, you can quickly host it inside Meego, release it, then add non-Android features around it12:13
jacekowskiyacc: not really12:13
derfdneary: Give it another 3 months.12:13
jacekowskiyacc: nokia can modify it12:13
markinfoKhertan, "OpeNTPD"?  - this has Programmmanager found12:13
jacekowskiyacc: then can add qt if they want to12:13
tybolltdneary: We're all stuck in PTS man, don't ruin oiur buzz ;)12:13
Khertandneary: wait for summer12:13
jacekowskiyacc: but that would mean creating something incomaptible12:13
yaccjacekowski, they already said that they are not allowed that, ...12:13
javispedronext that happens is dead, past times are more fun.12:13
RST38hjavispedro: With Android, you still kinda control your destiny to a certain degree. WP7 is more along the lines of shutting up and bending over.12:13
Khertandneary: when an other manufacturer will sell meego handset device :)12:13
jacekowskiyacc: no, they said they can do it, but they won't12:14
javispedroRST38h: had they gone Android, they would have had most of the backlash but without lech media ado.12:14
RST38hjavispedro: Dunno, I am not looking at the PR side of the story12:14
derfRST38h: I dunno... given that MS's own WP7 handsets were massive failures, Nokia probably has sufficient leverage to control future direction of the platform.12:14
RST38hjavispedro: Only at the technical side, i.e. "can you differentiate yourself inside android ecosystem"12:14
yaccAnyway, talking to local Nokia people they all seem slightly in shock, and not a good shock, ...12:15
RST38hderf: See previous examples of companies partnering with MWS12:15
jacekowskiRST38h: yes, but then you create incompatible platform12:15
Khertandneary: nokia push for Qt, and now abandon dev for their future device ... it s a bit normal that we are angry12:15
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derfRST38h: Yes, I read that article, too.12:15
jacekowskiRST38h: and you are in a shit again12:15
RST38hjacek: you do not12:15
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RST38hderf: Also check out what WP7 development is like12:15
derfI'd rather not, thanks.12:15
RST38hderf: Hint: it is C# only, on top of a cut-down WinCE with multitasking mostly disabled12:16
derfThat's still gotta be better than Apple and Objective C and all that crap.12:16
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dnearyIn the meantime my solution will be "sudo mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden; su -c "at '050111 00:00' \n mv /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome-hidden /usr/bin/xchat2-gnome^D"12:16
RST38hderf: Apples is actually not that bad, just weird and comes with a toilet plunger from behind12:16
Khertanderf: you mean worse ?12:16
javispedroRST38h: do not understimate the number of MS.NET-only shops12:16
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dnearyKhertan, Sure it is12:16
jacekowskiRST38h: c# is better than objC12:17
RST38hjavispedro: Yes, but what you can do with a lemon like this? Technically?12:17
dnearyKhertan, It's just against my nature to lose sleep about stuff that's done & dusted12:17
jacekowskiRST38h: it's better platform than first ios was12:17
javispedroRST38h: around the number of java crazies, and probably way more than people that even KNOW what objc is.12:17
yaccjacekowski, but you don't, Android is incredibly "compatible" even if you patch it around for different functionality, in practice there are very very few apps that do not run on an Archos tablet from the Market, and these involve 95% or so missing hardware (no point in a SMS app for hardware without a mobile part, Navigation dislikes the fact that we've got no GPS, and so on), and only a tiny bit has problems with the big screen or the fact that Archos viol12:17
yaccates Googles guidelines by changing screenresolution on the fly, ...12:17
dnearyKhertan, So my instinct is always to absorb the news & say "OK, what now?"12:17
derfjacekowski: If only this was 2007.12:17
RST38hjavispedro: Well, yes, lots of java "programmers". So, following your logic, we should have wonderful MIDP apps nowadays12:17
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javispedroRST38h: nothing, but that worked well for apple :D12:18
Khertandneary: but this announce made too many changes from me ...12:18
dnearyIf going backwards was a possibility, I'd be all for it, but it seems unrealistic (and, frankly, suicidal for NOK in the marketplace) to reverse strategy now12:18
yaccjacekowski, all the bloggers decrying Androids fragmentation, sorry don't see it day-to-day, ...12:18
RST38hjavispedro: But check what MIDP apps ae available and you will see that the miracle just isn't there.12:18
smharI mounted my N900 in mass storage mode and copied all important data to PC, now I want to copy /home too. I have ssh installed but I can not get an IP when starting in in N90012:18
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Khertandneary: i was applying for a job position which is now close about applications developpment for meego12:18
jacekowskiMIDP is a cut down version of java with almost no capabilities12:18
dnearySo... the choices are: make MeeGo with a NOK involvement at ~40% of present a success, or drop participation in MeeGo12:18
yaccjacekowski, furthermore, consider "firmware" updates => ever watched how long it took T-Mobile to approve a new Nokia Symbian firmware, ...12:18
markinfothere is only:   ...but even with ths there is no command "ntpdate"12:19
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dneary(at the individual level those are my choices)12:19
RST38hjacekowski; Well, the full java does not run on a resource constrained device! Same applies to C# .NET12:19
jacekowskiyacc: well, like i care what t-mobile thinks12:19
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jacekowskiyacc: i just flash it with firmware i download12:19
javispedroRST38h: well all I see on TV are MIDP useless widgets.12:19
Khertandneary: so now i need to study an other plateform if want to try to be employed to do mobile app developpment12:19
jacekowskiyacc: not with branded stuff12:19
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RST38hjavispedro: Exactly12:19
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jacekowskiRST38h: android is mostly java12:19
jacekowskiRST38h: and everybody is happy withit12:19
dnearyKhertan, See, you're getting the hang of it :)12:20
jacekowskijava is apparently most popular programming lanugage now12:20
jacekowskiwhich is part of android success12:20
RST38hjavispedro: Because no matter how many developers you have and no matter how much enthusiasm and money, if your base platform is sufficiently broken/maimed, they won't do a thing for you12:20
dnearyKhertan, *if* your goal was making a living out of app development, *then* MeeGo is a non-starter for you now, and I would move to Android straight away12:20
RST38hjavispedro: Same Google is finding this out just about now, which makes them work on the NDK12:20
yaccjacekowski, no, I mean, one of the common complaints is that Android devices get stuck at an old Android version, => that's simply only a half-truth => yes some are stuck if you do not use unofficial images => but then, before Android/iOS that was the norm, nobody even expected that a Symbian handset would upgrade to next release of a handset, ...12:20
dnearyKhertan, In fact, I'd ask you what you were doing on MeeGo in the first place, to be honest12:20
Khertandneary: as i didn't know anymore any companies which will do meego app dev (near paris) ... i'm currently looking at other plateform and start learning Android12:20
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RST38hjavispedro: I am sure Android's top cheeses absolutely hate the NDK, it is so ugly and not what they want, but develoers require it12:21
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dnearyIf you're banking on the next new edgy platform that will build up a nice niche, I'd be tempted to concentrate on HTML5 and Javascript, learn Node.js and target both Android & WebOS12:21
Khertandneary: a company that would like to have app ported from iOS and Android ready when the first MeeGo device appear12:21
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jacekowskijavascript has performance issues12:22
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derfIt's gotten a lot better in the past year.12:22
Khertanjacekowski: look at QtQuick it s javascript ... and it s didn't have performance issues12:22
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jacekowskitry doing full screen 3d game in javascript12:23
derfWith WebGL, that is very feasible.12:24
jacekowskitry it12:24
RST38hjacekowski <== obviously has never tried it12:24
jacekowskii've tried it12:24
derfThe most serious limitation right now is the GC.12:24
jacekowskiit's slower than native code12:24
RST38hWhich is why you want native development environment12:24
jacekowskisomething like 3-4x slower at least12:24
javispedrorst38h: but that's what I guess will happen on wp7. c# for the masses, and eventually ms will do something for native.12:24
RST38hBUT, the fun part is, Android provides you with NDK. WP7 does not.12:24
RST38hjavispedro: The keyword is "eventually". You do not know.12:25
jacekowskifun part is that c# and .net was designed to be JITed at runtime12:25
jacekowskijava never was designed for that12:25
RST38hOh, not the JIT argument again...12:25
markinfowhat is the name of package with "ntpdate" program?12:25
RST38hAndroid comes with a JIT nowadays. Java has had JITs for years, people defended dissertations on Java JITs12:25
yaccjacekowski, naturally it's slower than native code, but so what. Current hardware is usually way over the requirements of the users anyway, for PCs that's a given, and for mobile devices it is starting to be so too, ...12:26
jacekowskibut java JIT is slower than .net JIT12:26
RST38hThe problem is, you are still losing performance, even with a JIT12:26
jacekowskiyacc: not for games12:26
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RST38hjacekowski: And you, of course, compared? On an ARM device?12:26
jacekowskiyacc: where having 20% more matters12:26
jacekowskiRST38h: yes12:26
RST38hGot the numbers?12:26
Khertanjacekowski: did you know there isn't any better language, just some more suitable for some purpose ?12:26
jacekowskithere is12:27
jacekowskiC is better12:27
yaccjacekowski, yes, for most games too, if it's not a top-of-the line FPS, my wife has been playing quite a number of months 90% or so of the newest Adventures (she is an Adventure addict) on a PC without dedicated GPU, ...12:27
yaccjacekowski, not the bullshit C argument, ...12:27
derfWhile I certainly agree with you for the things _I_ like to write, I also realize that I am in the minority.12:27
Khertanjacekowski: mouarf12:27
yaccjacekowski, J12:27
derfC is a terrible language for many things, and for many developers.12:28
RST38hderf: C++ fixes that, somewhat12:28
xkr47there is always visual basic12:28
* RST38h hides =)12:28
Khertanjacekowski: 21 line in python // 184 in C12:28
jacekowskiKhertan: that's on x86 and comapring mono12:28
derfYou mean it makes the language so bad people who shouldn't be using it run and hide?12:28
yaccjacekowski, JITs or to be more specific spezialing compilers can even beat C for some code, because it takes the used code paths into account, ...12:28
zutesmogand PyPy is looking good now on the perf front ;-)12:29
RST38hUsing a limited subset of C++ will make your life easier12:29
jacekowskiyacc: i very much doubt you can beat clang12:29
RST38hIt is using the whole beast that will kill you12:29
derfYes, we've had this discussion before.12:29
jacekowskiKhertan: 372 lines in java12:30
derfAnd what you say _might_ be true (if the tools didn't suck so mcuh), until you have project with more than one developer.12:30
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Khertan <<< perfectly useless :)12:30
derfEvery one of which has a different idea of what part of the language they'd like to use.12:30
jacekowskiKhertan: you see C++ won12:31
jacekowskisecond language after C12:31
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RST38hderf: Then you control your developers well12:31
jacekowskihmm, C won12:31
yaccjacekowski, well, actually, it's simple, consider GC => without GC C/C++ forces you to design modules with static ownership relationships => so C/C++ is forced in many cases to copy objects just because it lacks GC.12:31
Khertanjacekowski: and ?12:31
RST38hderf: usually, providing them with class declarations and prohibiting from modifying these works12:31
derfWell, I'd tell them to use C, and that would solve that problem.12:32
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Khertanjacekowski: and now in term of development time, stability ?12:32
derfSeems like less work for me.12:32
RST38hderf: regular scans for "new" keyword with consequent executions also help12:32
RST38hderf: Nah, they will fuck up your C code too, don't get your hopes too high12:32
yaccRST38h, using a minimal subset of C++ is pointless, because you need to know the complete language, the moment you get involved in debugging your app that uses for example STL facilities, e.g. string objects.12:32
RST38hyacc: Then do not use STL in your app. I am not.12:33
derfOf course they will, but it'll be easier to fix.12:33
RST38hyacc: I.e. I have no problem debugging apps with STL, but never use this hackish crap myself12:33
yaccRST38h, so what if some library you need uses STL? And if you don't use STL, you end up with a gazillion of simple classes like strings because each and every library module uses it's own implementation of the concept?12:34
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denoI followed the instruction of to install the kernel-power but even if I install the sdk-fiasco-gen package I get: E: Build-Depends dependency for kernel-power cannot be satisfied because the package sdk-fiasco-gen cannot be found12:34
denoany idea of how to solve it'12:35
RST38hyacc: One more time: If some library I need uses STL, I reconsidering using this library. If I still see I need it, I use it, with STL.12:35
yaccRST38h, well, funny is when you watch an University graduate (aka newbie) that can program C++ fine start to debug some memory problem. Ended up with the CTO (which happened to have risen through as a developer) and me (both with more than a decade C/C++ experience) debugging his stuff, because he was that baffled, ..12:35
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RST38hyacc: Not using a language feature DOES NOT mean you should not know of it existance12:36
yaccRST38h, no problem, but I consider your argument about using a sane subset of C++ BS ;)12:36
RST38hyacc: Have I provided a clear explanation?12:36
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RST38hyacc: Yes, people do not know how to debug memory problems. A lot of people are also lazy, so they do not want to know.12:37
yaccSo yes, you need to have developers that know the complete C++ well, then you can decide on a saner subset for a project. ;)12:37
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RST38hyacc: And yes, the way to prevent this is to regularly scan code for "new"/"malloc" and ask developers to avoid these features12:37
RST38hyacc: Because in reality, you do not need to use them that much12:37
derfBut RAII!12:38
yaccRST38h, well, debugging memory problems has gotten so much easier over the years with stuff like valgrind, but yes, it's something that needs experience in my experience ;)12:38
RST38hyacc: And if you do, the can be encapsulated into asmall bunch of spots12:38
RST38hyacc: I mean, teaching people to code defensively is not new, so I dunno what you find unusual12:38
yaccRST38h, nice try, with a 15 years old code base that uses CORBA, Motif, Qt, (dual event loop), embedded Python, yacc/lex based own languages, and so on, grepping for known problem "texts" like malloc would trigger a complete rewrite of the app, ...12:39
MohammadAGdotblank, groove's working again with the latest update, thanks :)12:39
RST38hyacc: Well, if you have got legacy code, it is a different story12:39
RST38hyacc: There, you are just trying to get rid of memory allocation as much as possible12:40
yaccRST38h, well, the problem is not that it can be done, because it can. C++ is a perfect language for a project with a couple of former student friends that are very good at it. Now take what you get as developers in a commercial setting, and you see that perhaps less than 5% CVs are even worth the bother to do an interview, ...12:41
RST38hyacc: You really think these remaining 95% will do well in C? Or maybe C#?12:42
yaccRST38h, and avoiding dynamic allocation is less than trivial in a event driven GUI app btw, ;)12:42
RST38hyacc: It is not about the programming language, it is just abut 95% of your CVs being sent by unqualified people, period.12:42
yaccRST38h, well, they'll do better in C#/Java because the languages/VMs do protect them from the worst errors (e.g. memory corruption), ...12:42
RST38hyacc: No, they will still write garbage and you will end up rewriting it.12:43
denono one?12:43
RST38hOr supporting it at great pain12:43
alteregoI think that's harsh :P12:43
RST38hThat's realistic, alterego12:43
RST38hI suspect both me and yacc have seen it, more than once =(12:43
alteregoI'm not "qualified" but I don't think I'm a horrendus engineeer :)12:44
RST38halterego: Cannot tell.12:44
yaccRST38h, possible, but that's the reality of commercial development, btw, the only places with technically good people usually ended with the technical sound parts being killed by management ;)12:44
RST38halterego: But many people I had to interview for developer positions just plain can't code.12:44
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RST38hyacc: That too12:44
alteregoAnd I've seen some "qualified" engineers that write crap and need to be guided through everything ..12:45
MohammadAGalterego, only abill_uk can say if you're a "horrendous" engineer or not12:45
RST38halterego: This is what I mean by "can't code"12:45
yaccRST38h, even people interviewing for a "Senior Python developer" position could not program simple for loops in about 50% of cases.12:45
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RST38halterego: In a lot of cases you can tutor them, but they have to be able of higher mental activity12:45
Khertanyacc:  ???12:45
yaccRST38h, complicated concepts like "unit tests" where beyond most of them.12:45
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Khertanyacc: a for loop in python ?12:45
RST38hyacc: I know.12:45
Khertanyacc: r u kidding ?12:46
yaccKhertan, of yes, trust me, the realities of being a freelancer in the IT world, usually called in to fix problems by people to stupid to realize that they have a problem, ...12:46
APTXdoes that mean I can be a senior python programmer?12:46
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alteregoyacc: that's amusing, because I'm I guess not confident enough to ever apply to a "senior" position.12:47
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Khertanyacc: ouch ... it s a base concept ...12:47
yaccAPTX, well, not exactly, because at that place the python dept head did institute programming tests before the interview ;)12:47
alteregoAnd like I said, I like to think I'm a relatively good coder.12:47
RST38halterego: It is difficult to say without seeing your code12:48
derfI remember being introduced to a bunch of VCs as a "senior programmer" right out of high school.12:48
yaccalterego, not sure how old you are, but after a decade in IT, one usually develops a certain cynic world view, or changes vocation ;)12:48
kerioi'm a crappy coder but according to most interview stories i'm more qualified than 90% of professional "coders"12:48
derfTitles like that mean very little.12:48
alteregoyacc: pretty much 28 yo12:48
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alteregoyacc: got about 6 years professional experience.12:48
yacckerio, lol, but that's quite normal, at my last place they had a software developer that could not manage even the simplest tasks with VBA (like concepts like variables, if/loop statements), and because of local regulations he was in fact unfireable, ...12:49
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yaccalterego, well, I guess with 6 years experience the cynism about the industry should start to set in, you know the exact time line is slightly individual :-P12:50
alteregoyacc: well, I'm more cynical about buearocracy.12:50
zutesmogimo a good developer should be able to help other people solve their code problems even in languages they are not particularly familiar with.12:50
alteregocorporatism and basically management :D12:51
alteregoanyhow, I'm gonna hit the shower bbiab12:51
yaccI've personally noticed that many people (in the general population, and to a slightly lesser extend in the developer population) have problems to understand the concept of nested loops. If they cannot do that, they will be always a failure as a developer, if they can manage that level of abstract understanding, there is hope for at least a mediocrate developer (and you know about one-eyes being king in the land of blind?)12:52
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zutesmogin my experience I encounter far too many "developers" whose problem solving skills are the real problem. They don't know how to break the problem down into simple pieces. This applies to not just coding, but networking, sysadmin etc.....12:54
kerioi don't get why people apply for that kind of position without actually knowing how to code12:54
kerioi mean, how did they get in the industry if they have no idea of what they're doing?12:54
RST38hyacc: You absolutely have to work for US government shop or a government contractor =)12:54
jacekowskiwell, nested loops are bad because they tend to make program slower12:54
zutesmogthat and the inability to RTFM, astounding.12:54
keriojacekowski: ._.12:54
kerionot intrinsically12:55
jacekowskiin most cases nested loops can be avoided with something a lot faster12:55
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jacekowskisaying that, i sometimes use them12:55
RST38hyacc: (and yes, they actively fire anyone who can actually do something, being able to do work is bad for your career in government :))12:55
yaccAnyway, the reality is that a very nice (in an academic sense) language like C++ (did I mention that the templating part is turing complete), turns out rather bad in many commercial settings, because it's much to sharp tool for the Neanderthals that get to use it in most banks, insurrance companies, military contractors, ... corporate settings, ...12:55
RST38hYes, but it is not the only such tool in the store12:56
jacekowskiyacc: somebody has to write all these JITs that run java and stuff12:56
RST38hAnd you can wreak havoc in Java too, absolutely no problem there12:56
yaccRST38h, not being an US citizen, that won't happen to me, but I managed to work in the energy sector in Germany, fascinating, there even the external freelancers are expected to be slow like the cliche about civil servants here around, ...12:56
RST38hWhoever told you that Java is "safe" was bullshitting you12:56
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keriojava has pointers12:57
yaccRST38h, I said safer, not safe. ;)12:57
kerioyou can blow shit up with pointers12:57
RST38hyacc: Not even safer12:57
kerioand c++ sucks12:57
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RST38hyacc: Ok, it will not crash right away, it will crash on Wednesday night when it finally exhausts all system memory12:57
KhertanRST38h: ah .... cycling references ...12:58
Khertanhum ....12:58
RST38hyacc: And debugging THAT will be harder than malloc/new extermination12:59
yaccRST38h, I stand by it, the ugliest items e.g. memory corruption that shows up unreliably at an unrelation point in time later is hard to create in Java (but doable, I mean, any language that allows global state, can have that problem, but in Java you'll probably need explicit assignments to that global state, while in C/C++ these variables can be overwritten by a crazy dangling pointer with no hints at the source code level, ...12:59
javispedrothis reminds me of that guy who wraps his main() in a try ... catch do_nothing(); block and says13:00
jacekowskibut there are tools to fix it13:00
javispedro"there, it does not crash anymore"13:01
jacekowskivalgrind for example13:01
yaccRST38h, yeah, but then, many programs don't need to keep running till Wednesday, they are killed every day and started fresh the next day ;) => and yes, you can have a memory leak in a GC-ed language.13:01
jacekowskijavispedro: that's cool13:01
jacekowskiyacc: i was running that sort of program13:01
jacekowskiyacc: it had to be restarted at specific time of a day13:01
mecetesting cssu on Untouched n900 :)13:01
jacekowskiyacc: if you started it later it wouldn't work untill 02:00 next day13:02
yaccWell, the nicest things I've seen (and that was in really critically security sensitive code) has been if(*x && x) // work on HP-UX as it has a mapped null page with all zeros in it13:02
xkr47mece, nice13:02
jonwilTime to see if I can identify the 2 remaining libisi functions I need to figure out13:02
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yaccI also loved the thing about assigning booleans into a bitmap, casting the bitmap into an integer, and then comparing that integer with a number of integer values to see if a certain combination of boolean conditions applied. (The developer claimed that this was legacy code, but 3 months later I caught him churning out his own new code with that construct, guess he never understood why that code failed when changing endianess) ;)13:04
yacc(eg when "porting" that Ansi-C *cough* program from HP-UX to Linux, ...)13:05
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RST38hjavispedro: You can do it without a try*(, just catch proper signals13:06
yaccRST38h, well, catching proper signals is not as "portable" as the try catch :-P13:06
RST38hyacc: Still POSIX though :)13:06
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RST38hyacc: And tell derf about that try/catch thing, I am sure he will be delighted ;)13:07
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zutesmogbut not many people really understand the implications of signals especially in threaded environments.  I have seen people think they are a replacement for a true IPC strategy13:08
yaccWell, try/catch is not the cure-all to all problems. While it might be better than checking errno and result values, it has this ugly property of often masking problems, especially with to broad catches :(13:08
RST38hyacc: Which brings us to the next good C++ tactic: do not let your developers use try/catch13:08
RST38hyacc: Always check and return results13:09
zutesmogThe correct strategy most of the time is not let your developers use C++13:09
RST38hzutesmog: Again, if you do not let them mess up class definitions, you are relatively safe13:09
javispedronot on java ;)13:09
javispedropoint is clear, I hope.13:10
zutesmogI really don'13:10
yacczutesmog, well, that's what RST38h is saying, even if he does not realize, he is crossing of C++ feature by feature till he crossed out 95% of C++ :-P13:10
RST38hyacc: No, only crossing ~30% of C++13:10
RST38hyacc: But yes, I fully admit of using C++ as "a better C"13:10
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yacclol, RST38h you just have not enough fantasy to see what desasters can happen, ...13:10
denoany one knows the h-e-n irc channel13:10
zutesmogoops, the problem is teams change and C++ and C is often unreadable between teams.13:11
RST38hyacc: But I do, see?13:11
zutesmogespecially 2 years later.13:11
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RST38hzutesmog: and there are "reliable" alternatives? :)13:11
RST38hlike, eh, java? :)13:11
zutesmogNumber one criteria for me in any project is the code should be readable and understandable by humans first and foremost.13:11
Per_n900you guys dont like python?13:11
RST38hzutesmog: does not depend on the language (ok, ok, MOSTLY)13:12
DocScrutinizer <javispedro> "there, it does not crash anymore"  ---  ROTFL13:12
RST38hPer: Snakes. Afraid of snakes. Hate 'em! :)13:12
zutesmogAgreed up to a point, but people try to get fancy.13:12
RST38hzutesmog: that is why you have to tutor them13:12
zutesmog(I love python but wasn't going to raise that)13:12
yaccRST38h, if you do not have very specific reasons to be as lowlevel as possible, higher level languages like Lisp, Python, Ruby, Smalltalk and so on come to mind.13:12
denoI installed that package13:12
RST38hzutesmog: for their own good and for your ass preservation13:12
MohammadAGdeno, are you on ARMEL?13:13
zutesmogreally strict guidelines are necessary in any team if the project is going to have a long life.13:13
denoMohammadAG, arm13:13
yacczutesmog, well, almost any observation about programming applies to any language (you know, the turing complete argument), but usually to a different degree.13:13
RST38hyacc: May I please shrug and go have lunch, at the mention of Ruby, Lisp, and Smalltalk, as viable industrial alternatives? :)13:13
zutesmogI spent years writing insurance systems in business basic, (back in late 80's) and we code reviewed everything.13:13
derfThere's code review and there's code review.13:14
denoMohammadAG, I used the
povbotBug 7972: Kernel in PR1.1 build-depends on fiasco-gen which is nowhere to be found13:14
RST38hzuesmog: You do not need strict guidelines. Strict guidelines do not work.13:14
zutesmogyacc: thats why I wasn't targetting specific languages.13:14
yaccRST38h, well, Neanderthals produce more reliable code with Python, even if you do not love it than with C++, ... ;)13:14
zutesmogRST38h: don't agree on that point.13:14
RST38hzuesmog: But you need to make your developers understand WHY they should stick to certain practices13:14
MohammadAGdeno, change debian/control then13:14
MohammadAGEdit Depends to depend on that package13:14
MohammadAGthough you should use sdk-fiasco-gen from the repos13:15
zutesmogabsolutley but if you don';t have those guidelines everything goes to pot and each new dude brings his own flavour along13:15
RST38hzuesmog: No, you assign the new dude to an old dude and watch his commits for a while, then let him continue on his own13:15
yacczutesmog, python has it's own set of features that should be used only when you really need them and know where you'll get cut (e.g. __getattr__ can be a bitch, meta classes are not understood by 90% of developers, and so on)13:15
zutesmogeven in OSS project slike python have strict guidelines for committers13:15
zutesmogtests must pas, follow PEP 8 when practical etc...13:16
infobotzutesmog meant: tests must pass, follow PEP 8 when practical etc...13:16
zutesmogcode reviews etc..13:16
denoMohammadAG, which repository? with apt-get is not possible to download it13:16
yaccPEP7/8 :-P13:16
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MohammadAGdeno, nokia-binaries...13:17
denoMohammadAG, I have it in the sources.list13:18
denobut it doesn't find it anyway13:18
MohammadAGapt-get update13:18
denoalready done13:19
denoapt-cache search fiasco13:19
denono output13:19
zutesmogyacc: agreed every language has its dark corners, 90% of the time you don't need to go there, but be glad you can when you need to ;-)13:19
smharI followed this wiki: but I can not ping from my notebook, any help?13:19
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SpeedEvilDoes ifconfig show the interface as up?13:20
smharSpeedEvil, no13:22
denoMohammadAG, I have in the sources.list: deb fremantle/mytoken nokia-binaries13:22
smharalthough I did ifup usb013:22
smharit is shown in route13:23
MohammadAGis mytoken "mytoken" or $mytoken?13:23
SpeedEvilYou possibly do not have the correct driver for usb-net13:23
DocScrutinizerdeno: there's no h-e-n IRC channel, there's only a hostmode DEVELOPERS taskforce meeting channel13:23
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smhardocscrutinizer, I was able to do that before13:24
denoMohammadAG,   deb fremantle/4bc37c7c11ebe90174c040b805a8dc79 nokia-binaries13:24
denoDocScrutinizer, k and what is? I m going to modify the kernel to improve (hopefully) the hostmode13:24
smharSpeedEvil, I can ping from within N90013:25
denoDocScrutinizer, thx13:25
alteregoIt's so sad that people see Maemo and MeeGo as failed platforms.13:26
tybolltalterego: no13:26
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tybolltalterego: 'people' don't. Nokia board of directors do - why do you think they hired Elop? :)13:27
jarkkom_platform might be ok, but people see nokia as failed company (and in many ways it is)13:27
smharSpeedEvil, I am wrong, usb0 is up in N900, it was just a looong list in the small display, had to use less to confirm13:27
alteregoI don't see that, I think they've done more than a lot of other companies have done. Even if we're not completely happy with it or how they executed it. Working with Maemo and MeeGo is very fun.13:27
smharSpeedEvil, now what?13:27
alteregotybollt: tell that to the continual rants on tmo :P13:28
chem|stthey fscked up big time and now they try to even sell their souls to the devil13:28
SpeedEvilsmhar: double check the IPs, and make sure the routes point right - so that you're not routing the other machine to the local interface13:28
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jarkkom_alterego, nokia is horribly bureaucratic company, they can't do software dev work required by current market13:28
chem|stI like the nokiaplanb shareholders^^13:28
jarkkom_chem|st, yeah but that plan 3-4 years to late, lots of nokia people have said same things privately for years13:29
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alteregoIt's not that they're not talented enough, there id dome serious talent in Nokia, it just seems like their are huge bottlenecks in their r&d infrastructure and release engineering cycles.13:30
alteregos/id dome/is some/13:31
infobotalterego meant: It's not that they're not talented enough, there is some serious talent in Nokia, it just seems like their are huge bottlenecks in their r&d infrastructure and release engineering cycles.13:31
chem|stjarkkom_: sure but harmattan will ship first time this year, even a N910 would make sense with the current PR+CSSU13:31
alteregochem|st: cssu is pointless for harmattan as harmattan doesn't use hildon :P13:31
chem|stalterego: read again pls13:32
chem|stI wouldn't call meego releasable...13:32
chem|sttalking m513:32
alteregoDon't want another M5 device thanks :P13:33
chem|stalterego: sure you dont?13:33
alteregoAnd MeeGo is very close to being releasable, but lets not forget Harmattan is not MeeGo :P13:33
alteregochem|st: got two :P13:34
chem|stand harmattan sounds like testing stage13:34
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alteregoIt was 5/5 the pretty much final product, with DUI and Qt as the core platform API13:35
alteregoI think that's either very late in the r&d phase or pretty much mass production ready.13:35
smharSpeedEvil, my mistake, forgot to allow-hotplug n900 in my notebook. now I can ping .  thanks13:35
chem|stalterego: but you dont have a slim N910 with 1.2GHz, 1GB RAM, AGN, 12Mpx....13:35
alteregochem|st: I'd prefer that hardware with a more refined more open (MeeGo) OS :)13:36
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chem|stalterego: but that is no businessplan13:36
chem|stand still you must not have you sim with pin active and so on...13:36
alteregoBasically Harmattan would be the last "maemo" as they transition the lower level apis into MeeGo core, as the Harmattan UX is supposed to be MeeGo compliant. Because MeeGo handset UX is basically Harmattan UX :)13:37
alteregochem|st: if you're refering to MeeGo Handset not having pin feature, do you seriously think they'd not put that in before release?13:38
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chem|stalterego: sure they will...13:38
smharwhen mounted as mass storage, I have copied all important data to my pc. now I an logged in ssh to N900, what should I copy to pc, so that I am sure I have full backup before flashing13:38
alteregoAlso, from the ARM adaptation perspective, the reason we don't really have PIN functions is because of the dual boot setup13:39
chem|stsmhar: you could just use the backup tool...13:39
alteregoWell, not dual boot setup, but the current boot setup13:39
smharchem|st, did that. and copied the created folder to pc.13:39
chem|stif you copied your mydocs and have done a full backup to your SD you are just fine13:40
alteregoI think it requires some interesting kernel and initrd stuff, stuff that would be in a final device :P13:40
* javispedro notes the state of the meego handset n900 images is not representative of the state of harmattan.13:40
smharchem|st, I have no SD . I copied every thing to pc13:40
javispedroharmattan works =)13:40
chem|stsmhar: did you modify anything within /etc then you might want to copy those few files as well13:40
alteregojavispedro: exactly, or even the state of whatever _real_ MeeGo Nokia may or may not be working on internally.13:40
smharchem|st, no.13:40
smharnothing special13:41
chem|stjavispedro: that is what I say since Doc made me aware of...13:41
chem|stwell not exactly13:41
chem|stthat they are two different things I know back from february last year but noone ever seems to listen to anything but rants13:42
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chem|stsmhar: then you are good to go13:42
smharthanks chem|st13:42
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LjLhow easy is it as a rule to port stuff from Maemo 5 back to 4?13:43
chem|st"as a rule"?13:43
LjLi mean in general, i realize it depends on the program13:44
chem|stanything meeting dependencies might just work after being recompiled for m413:44
LjLthat's nice, /me goes to grab SDK or whatever is needed to try13:45
chem|stbut there was something about the UX implementation changes between m4 and m5 (afair)13:46
chem|styou may ask the maintainer for help13:46
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: why not suggest backupmenu to smhar?13:51
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ZogGthp, thaaaaank you14:12
ZogGfinally someone did it14:12
ZogGJaffa, i think it should be added to mwkn and font page of maemo news14:13
MohammadAGit's indeed quite awesome :)14:14
MohammadAGsee his other vid on full forced rotation14:14
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DangerMausfinnaly i h8;d that by the time it shifted i had given up14:14
ZogGMohammadAG i said thousand times it is useless to have rotaion liek we had14:15
DangerMausnow is there a app name for it?14:15
ZogGMohammadAG, link for other one?14:16
ZogGDangerMaus, wait for CSSU update. MohammadAG, right? =)14:16
DangerMausday week month ?14:17
lardmaninteresting that PlanB business14:17
SpeedEvilNot really.14:17
SpeedEvilUnless they've got enough shares to force it.14:17
lofty306im trying to l=sleep me mum is banging roound the kitchen14:18
lardmanWell at least the part about culling management overhead14:18
lardmanSpeedEvil: indeed14:18
ZogGDangerMaus i think week max but i bet for couple days14:18
lofty306oops wrong chan14:18
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pebHi folks14:18
DangerMausk thnx14:18
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lardmanmight carry more weight if people knew who they were and how many shares they own14:20
SpeedEvilIndeed. 1 share, for the purposes of the note = lol.14:20
lardmanwell unless they can persuade 51% of the other shareholders of course ;)14:21
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ZogGMohammadAG awesome, finally i can close microb while in portrait14:21
lardmanis there a minimum buy-in for directorship?14:21
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RST38hMohammad: You fixed MicroB?14:22
MohammadAGno, thp made a forced rotation patch14:22
meceis The maps application open source thp?14:22
MohammadAGmece, it's a web app14:23
meceoh, nice :D14:23
MohammadAGbasically, it's the most open source app :P14:23
lardmanbut it uses a binary to do the hard work14:23
MohammadAGcept for the launcher and window I guess14:23
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lardmanthe map geenration and rendering is all in the binary14:23
thpmece: the main layout is just a html file14:23
mecethp, curious. is it a webkit widget?14:24
alteregoNo, it's XUL14:24
alteregoA load of javascript, and XPCOM bindings14:24
chem|stDocScrutinizer: never heard anything good about it...14:24
DocScrutinizerchem|st: V2 seems to work14:25
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: and with copying of MyDocs and backup to desktop it is just fine...14:25
DocScrutinizerat last for the part to create a proper tarball of rootfs14:25
DocScrutinizerchem|st: yep, modulo the "did you change /etc?" part14:26
chem|stbut I do not expect an advanced user even asking what to backup...14:26
MohammadAGhmm, why don't I have backupmenu v2...14:26
DocScrutinizerdunno... maybe RobbieThe1st forgot to kick MohammadAG's ass?14:27
MohammadAGwhy would he do that :P14:28
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: just advertising backupmenu :-)14:28
chem|stI forgot about /root in my scripts and had to setup all from scratch from .ssh to .bashrc etc14:28
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RobbieThe1stV2 = 0.40+14:28
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DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: did you include a boot menupoint? which would allow to bootup as if kbd slider been closed14:30
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ZogGthp, you are awesome14:33
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RST38hthp: Is the whole UI ok, or is it broken?14:33
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ZogGMohammadAG, is n900 calendaer is closed source?14:33
thpRST38h: of H-A-M? it works pretty well14:34
RST38hcool =)14:34
lardmanZogG: ui is, backend is open14:34
RST38hthp: BTW, what was the magic trick?14:34
thpmagic trick?14:34
RST38hthp: to make it go portrait I mean14:34
thpRST38h: see for the diff :)14:34
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alteregooh no, the first sign of wearing out on my keypad :D14:35
alteregoIt's the bloody symkey :D14:35
thpthe background gradient has to be provided by the theme, though - by default, it's black. i just copied in a background gradient i gimped up myself14:35
Jaffathp: Cool stuff14:35
mecethp, very nice.14:35
rmrfchikhad you discussed Nokia Plan B?14:36
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Jaffathp: Is it h-d which monitors the accelerometers and handles deciding when to go portrait/landscape? I think the timing could be reduced a little (making it feel more fluid) and some kind of UI hook provided for "lock orientation"14:36
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xkr47Jaffa, agreed14:36
RST38hthp: neat =)14:36
MohammadAGh-d listens to that afaik14:36
RST38hthp <-- is even polite enough to keep the same coding style14:37
javispedroaha, webos dev event14:37
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meceJaffa, definately agree on the timing. It feels slow. I always start shaking the device before it rotates.14:39
thpRST38h: dialogs also work mostly:
thpJaffa: yep, h-d decides which orientation to use14:40
thpmce does the listening, i think14:40
RST38hthp: "mostly" won;t cut it :( Modest also "mostly" works in portrait, just not completely14:42
MohammadAGJaffa, though i guess it can be hacked in (orientation lock)14:42
denoguys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment?14:43
thpRST38h: ok. completely then :)14:43
thpwith mostly i meant "i didn't change anything, and what i saw when testing it worked fine"14:43
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RST38hthp: Make it part of CSSU! :)14:46
ZogGlardman thinking of actually how is posible to change some things14:47
RST38hthp: Btw, if you feel like resizing a few widgets, check out Modest, it only has a couple of tight spots14:47
DocScrutinizerJaffa: the lis302 g-meter chip should assert a IRQ line, kernel driver sensing this and emitting a /sys kevent, which gets detected by mce(?) and converted to a dbus signal, I guess14:47
RST38hthp: like buttons staying in portrait when rotated etc14:47
ZogGand add the google support14:47
xkr47also plan914:48
lardmanZogG: sure, would be good to be able to change a lot of things really14:48
Jaffathp: There's already a merge request for it to go into the CSSU. gitorious seems to be working well to gather patches.14:48
xkr47and f and g are registered14:48
_berto_f is NSFW14:48
DocScrutinizernokiaplank FTW14:50
* DocScrutinizer reads nokiaplane and shudders14:50
rmrfchikno plans for nokia in XXI14:51
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thpwhat does the text in say?14:53
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thpRST38h: buttons staying in portrait?14:53
Jaffathp: "Hotel package is closed." according to Google Translate14:53
ZogGlardman let's change nokia decision about WP7 with calendar time back plugin14:53
* xkr47 thinks this is a winner.. power button -> Phone -> menu -> Turning control -> Display orientation -> Landscape14:55
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thpJaffa: oh, so that's probably just some domain parking thing then14:55
xkr47it has been annoying me since I got the phone that it keeps rotating the screen one or two times every time I want to answer the phone14:55
xkr47delaying the answering14:55
_berto_this one is random14:55
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ZogGthp, Hotel package is closed as google said14:57
lardmanZogG: Calendar frontend needs to be re-written, preferably adding in some features like different alarm options, etc.14:58
lardmanZogG: Reverse engineering the format of the map data would be useful14:58
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RST38hthp: Yes, when you rotate the device (after Ctrl+Shift+R) Modest rotates, but the accuont selection buttons stay wide (i.e. they go beyond the screen)15:00
RST38hthp: Same thing occurs in some other Modest screens15:00
ZogGof the map data?15:00
lardmanZogG: yes, to enable the Maps app to be replaced15:00
lardmanand use the decent vector data that we all now own15:01
ZogGoh i dunno that we had maps integrated in calendar =)15:01
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Per_n900hildon-desktop still does not support portrait mode or am I wrong?15:03
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ZogGPer_n900, it supports, but not apps do15:03
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lardmanZogG: was a different point actually, not sure whether it does support the calendar app15:05
lardmanactually I think it does, but doesn't support contacts. Or vice versa15:05
lardmaneither way the maps app is craptastic15:05
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ZogGlardman, ovi maps sucks but for my country most apps suck =))15:06
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lardmanwhere are you ZogG ?15:07
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ZogGlardman, Holy Land15:07
lardmanThe Vatican?15:07
lardmanPalestine then I guess?15:07
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lardmanor some part thereof15:08
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lardmanI suppose I should include Israel15:08
* lardman doesn't mean to start a Holy war15:08
Ken-YoungSaving "The Levant" is safest.15:08
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lardmanKen-Young: yes indeed15:10
ZogGlardman Israel15:11
lardmanI got there in the end then :)15:11
lardmanhas anyone looked at the format of the map data?15:13
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lardmanthe ovi maps binary is quite large unfortunately15:13
lardmanhmm, everytime I make a modification to my code, some error falls out which was previously hiding in there15:14
MohammadAGZogG, I have to say, Google Maps on the iPhone is epic15:14
lardmanI was just about to try looking at Israel using Ovi maps, but the site seems to be knackered15:16
yaccWhat's the "complete" backup for the N900, just before sending it in to Nokia Service?15:16
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derflardman: That's the way coding is supposed to work.15:16
derfSince no code is bug free, if you're not finding new bugs, you're doing it wrong.15:16
lardmanderf: amazing how different mistakes almost cancel each other out, just leaving very small differences you can't work out15:16
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derfIn signal processing, this is the normal state of affairs.15:18
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yaccderf, that's the normal state of affairs in most fields, ...15:20
yaccderf, even if it's a single error, you cannot assume that while diagnosing it, ...15:20
Kegetysanyone have any idea why I randomly have icd2 and dbus-daemon taking up significant cpu time for many hours on N900?15:20
derfNo, I mean the error terms _literally_ cancel. It's not even a bug!15:21
lardmanI'm comparing to known good analytical models, so I need to work out what's error and what's implementation inaccuracy15:21
derfAh, you're lucky then.15:21
lardmanuntil I changed one part of the code that was generating an error and suddenly everything is out by a factor of 215:22
lardmanuntil I found the other error that was causing the factor of 2 error15:22
lardmanall good fun15:22
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ZogG MohammadAG on android is well15:24
LjLargh. any clue why my N810 might not connect to WLAN? note i do have a lot of non-standard repositories enabled, including extras-devel, but... it was working 10 minutes ago! ;(15:24
psycho_oreosprobably something you installed recently that stuffed it up15:25
LjLboo there is no /var/log/dpkg.log :(15:25
sevardLjL: on the other hand since you actually have an n810, do you have a fast picture viewer?15:27
sevardi have tear, which is fast, telescope, which is fast, mytube, which is fast15:27
sevardi'm looking for other fast awesome shit :D15:27
LjLsevard: that's something i haven't investigated yet... my N810 is quite new, only got it a few days ago :)15:27
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sevardgood luck with it!  get telescope ;)15:28
LjLi do have all the other programs you mentioned :P except telescope. i tried it, but i had a feeling it took up a bit too much RAM...15:28
sevarda feeling or actual numbers lol15:28
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LjLwell, VSZ was 16000 in ps15:29
LjLbut i never really knew what the ps numbers actually do mean :P15:29
psycho_oreosVSZ might be virtual size15:29
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LjLhow strange... it connects to my open network, but not to my WPA protected network. i've reset the router and the N810 both.15:30
psycho_oreosvsz -  virtual memory size of the process in KiB (1024-byte units). Device mappings are currently excluded; this is subject to change. (alias vsize).15:31
LjLso it's how much it malloc()ed, whether or not it actually touched it?15:31
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LjLwish N810 had a back-facing camera. i already have mirrors.15:37
* erstazi loves CSSU15:38
lcukLjL, stick 2 N810's back to back15:39
erstazithank you MohammadAG15:39
xkr47so what does cssu update?15:41
Kegetyswish N900 didn't have a back-facing camera so it wouldn't have that bulge in the back ;)15:41
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xkr47is there any replacement camera app that would be simpler than the default15:42
xkr47the buttons are in the way when you want to hold it with one hand15:42
SpeedEvilKegetys: you can cut off the shutter, and it won't15:43
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LjLby the way sevard, i'm making an N8x0 tips page at maybe you want to check it / add something15:51
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alteregoSo, who's hiring? :D15:56
jacekowskigoogle is15:57
alteregoI'm not ex Nokia15:57
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denoguys does apt-cache search fiasco show some output in your scratchbox environment?16:01
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DocScrutinizerI'd kindly request you to vote: (maybe useless, but can't hurt)16:10
povbotBug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available16:11
ZogGi don't get it16:12
ZogGi installed maemo sdk16:12
ZogGand i have qt creator16:12
ZogGhow can i do that if i run for test my app it would be emulated like in maemo16:13
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DouglishHi all, I have a problem with my N900 and maemo, my device doesn16:16
yaccDocScrutinizer: what/who does use cell broadcast?16:16
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Douglishdoesn't see some wireless networks (ap), but other devices see it and singal is strong enought, what should I do to find out where the problem is?16:17
DocScrutinizeryacc: see
povbotBug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available16:17
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Sc0rpiusZogG: did you read the wiki? summary: scratchbox, Xephyr, and start16:18
DocScrutinizerDouglish: some or any?16:18
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DouglishDocScrutinizer: It sees only ad-hoc networks. But on other place it saw others not only ad-hoc, so I'm bit confused about that.16:19
DocScrutinizeryou made sure the missing networks are 802.11b/g and not hidden-SSID?16:20
DouglishBut maybe there is a problem there there is roaming on. It's eduroam network.16:20
bistonhey guys is it possible to run fluxbox on the n900 ?16:20
bistonah nevermind, found the wiki page16:20
jonwilSo yeah who can we ping to find out if doing something about the bug with IncomingCBS is possible or not?16:20
DouglishOh, I see the problem, I guess. Frequency:5.18 GHz16:20
DocScrutinizerthat's not supported by N90016:21
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bistonyea i can see that, instructions are for n810, but gonna try it on my n900 anyway...16:22
javispedroits fun to see hp ignoring nokia and nokia ignoring hp in the ecosystem race16:24
SpeedEvil np: Pink Floyd - We don't need no ecosystem.16:25
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rmrfchikin soviet russia^Wfinlad, ecosystems doesn't need YOU!16:26
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: whom to ping about 8347?16:27
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javispedroDocScrutinizar: nfi, probably a symbian guy :S16:27
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jonwilWe just need to find who owns and libsms.so16:28
jonwilIf I had the binary .debs for them, the changelogs and stuff may say who owns it16:28
DocScrutinizernobody owns it now, I guess16:28
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jonwilor rather who wrote it16:28
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DocScrutinizerdidn't the .h headerfiles in Qt SDK clearly say who wrote it?16:29
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jonwilnope, those arent related to libsms or csd-sms16:29
jonwilthose are related to the cell modem16:29
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jonwilwhich would be a different guy16:29
DocScrutinizerso, usual path: council, tekojo, stskeeps, random-staff-affiliated16:30
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jonwilstskeeps or tekojo seems like the best bet at this point16:31
DocScrutinizermaybe andre__ as well16:31
DocScrutinizerhe's the guy to port community bugtraq tickets into Nokia16:32 case they make sense.16:32
jonwilso yeah bugs 8347 and 10870 are the issues related to this16:32
jattwill be a pr1.3?16:32
jattwill be a pr1.4?16:32
andre__jatt: ???16:32
DocScrutinizerandre__: unrelated, I guess16:33
jattanother maemo update for the n90016:33
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andre__and what's with those tickets? enhancement == meego (no enhancements for maemo planned as far as I know), and the other is WONTFIX16:33
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jonwil8347 has turned from an enhancement into a bug16:34
jonwilas in, there is functionality in the cellular stack for maemo16:34
andre__if it's not a critical or blocker bug that actually won't change much.16:35
jonwilso I guess we have to give up on having working Cell Broadcast on the N900 then :(16:35
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DocScrutinizerandre__: opening up some limited amount of source might do16:36
andre__tell Nokia16:36
jonwilyes all we would need is the source code to libsms and libcsd-sms and any header files required to compile that16:37
DocScrutinizer:-) thought you *are* Nokia for all that matters here16:37
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andre__I'm not a Nokia employee, nor a Nokia lawyer.16:37
andre__I just handle bug reports.16:38
jonwilok, so we should ping stskeeps or tekojo then16:38
DocScrutinizerI see ;.(16:38
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jonwilI guess16:38
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DocScrutinizersounds like tekojo can't do much either16:38
DocScrutinizerstskeeps could, if we convince him meego-arm needs those info16:39
jonwilexcept that it doesnt because of ofono16:40
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JaffaDidn't the ofono folks get something running on Maemo?16:41
JaffaOr was it limited to the same API already available for CSD etc.16:41
DocScrutinizerit's an affront against maemo community that we can't get *any* help to fix bugs ourselves, while meego-arm just needs to ask and gets *maemo* sources usually without problems16:41
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DocScrutinizerI feel this attitude of Nokia is letting down their users much worse than any switch to winP7 does16:43
alteregoDocScrutinizer: not sources ..16:43
DocScrutinizeroh, NOT?16:43
alteregoWe get the same bins you get, though maybe slightly modernised.16:43
DocScrutinizerwhat about mce then, just for instance16:43
jonwilyeah MCE16:43
jonwilMeeGo has MCE in git16:43
DocScrutinizerPA another one that comes to mind16:44
jonwilbut its not the same code as in Fremantle16:44
jonwilPA still has closed binaries in MeeGo16:44
DocScrutinizerjonwil: even worse16:44
jonwilalthough I think that Nokia made the closed-pa bits in MeeGo smaller than those in Maemo16:45
jattwill be there a moment where I can install maemo, meego or any other linux "distribution" on a phone and just run it? just like you can run ubuntu on nearly any laptop?16:45
DocScrutinizerjonwil: all this doesn't change the mere fact16:45
jonwilyeah we arent asking for the entire16:45
DocScrutinizerjatt: no16:45
jattDocScrutinizer: what are the limitations?16:45
jonwilwe arent asking for the entire Maemo source tree, just some dev packages and source code for a few specific packages that we can use to improve Maemo and make it better (all of which are replaced by open code in MeeGo)16:46
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jattsmartphones are getting closer to computers, I was just wondering16:46
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: that's probably well understood (or just not of interest) at Nokia16:46
jonwilMeeGo-on-n900 is not the answer IMO, neither is "lets replace the telephony stack and everything that uses it with ofono and the inferior MeeGo bits"16:47
jonwilI say inferior in that say the phone dialer in MeeGo is not as good as the one in Maemo16:47
Jaffajonwil: The council will be asking again, but we're letting our colleagues in Nokia work out if they've still got a job first ;-)16:47
DocScrutinizerjonwil: the problem is they are not willing to spend one man's one day work, to open up anything, for maemo16:47
JaffaUnless there's a good cost/benefit analysis.16:47
JaffaCertainly "we want as much as possible" isn't as useful as "X wants Y to be able to do Z"16:48
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JaffaWhere "X" == jonwil, "Y" == telephony stuff and "Z" == "cell broadcast"16:48
DocScrutinizerJaffa: that's why I added
povbotBug 8347: Cell Broadcast Feature not available16:48
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jattthey did a good cost/benefist analysis for the windows take over :)16:48
DocScrutinizerI hope that's clear enough16:49
jonwiland for telephony, the mere fact that ofono exists means that all the "open the maemo code" arguments a LOT harder to argue16:49
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Indeed.16:49
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I wonder how best to gather together these outstanding requests.16:49
DocScrutinizerJaffa: can you follow up on this?16:49
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Will do, but ideally I'd have a few. Wiki page, maybe?16:49
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Which links to bugs and defines the X, Y & Z for each thing being asked for?16:49
JaffaThat'd be very handy16:50
jonwilLets build this wiki then16:50
DocScrutinizerI thought there's such a wiki page already16:50
jonwilthere is but its obsolete16:50
DocScrutinizerso update it16:50
jonwila new wiki page for the outstanding wiki pages would be good16:50
jonwilI mean outsanding requests16:50
JaffaDocScrutinizer: That'd work16:50
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jonwilfirst though we have to identify the genuine requests that we need16:50
* Jaffa wants something he can show Nokia and say "look, this isn't zealotry, there are people ready to work on these packages"16:50
DocScrutinizerjonwil: jaffa meant *all* outstanding requests16:51
RST38hJaffa: Is this something Nokia expects?16:51
JaffaRST38h: Nokia have been pretty clear in the past as to the likelihood of any further licensing change requests.16:51
jonwilwe need to make sure that the outstanding reuqests are actually still required16:52
DocScrutinizerJaffa: if somebody starts, I'll join in and check each request for proper X,Y,Z and relevance16:52
jonwilno point in asking for something if the use case doesnt matter anymore16:52
DocScrutinizerjonwil: exactly16:52
JaffaRST38h: However, it's easier to make an argument if you can point to someone willing to make a concrete improvement.16:53
DocScrutinizerjonwil: you could start on it, by simply collecting the bug# from track, and I'll scrutinize each one and see if I can find the original author of the request and/or some project team still interested in doing sth with it16:54
jonwilWill start a new wiki page simply llisting the known outstanding requests that appear to still be relavent16:54
jonwiland then someone can flesh it out a bit16:55
DocScrutinizerjonwil: please try to edit the existing wikipage, it's dangling cruft otherwise16:55
jonwilok, will add something to the existing webpage16:56
DocScrutinizerjonwil: ping me as soon as there's something I can use my memory to add in historic facts and find guys to ask about recent state16:57
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: you think this is an effort going right direction this way?17:00
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: I believe it's better than ranting on IRC, on TMO or in one or two bug reports...17:02
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DocScrutinizersure, I just asked for your comment on the suggested procedure. Does it sound to you like the result is what you need?17:03
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Oh, yes. Sorry. Indeed. Spot on.17:04
DocScrutinizerok, fine17:04
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Table. Issue #. X wants Y for Z :-)17:04
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DocScrutinizeryeah, I'll add in things like "most recently commented on bugtrack: <date>"; "number of votes: <int>"; "external references: <URL>[]"...17:06
jonwilWhat I am doing is writing a list with each item containing the item/feature this is for, links to the bug(s) for it plus a simple list of the bits of code that are required17:07
jonwilThen you can go from there17:07
DocScrutinizerplus a comment on estimated relevance17:07
DocScrutinizerjonwil: yes. Appreciated17:07
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edheldilI do not want to start a flame here, but it's almost funny how Elop left out Maemo from the list of Nokia's options, to make appear WP7 as the only alternative. Sigh. Not that there are ANY options when MS is sponsoring Nokia :/17:13
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alteregoedheldil: there is no maemo17:14
jattelop is a Genius17:15
alteregoIt got merged into MeeGo, we all know this ..17:15
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SwedeMikeis the n900 out of production now? Looking at online dealers in sweden it seems to have gone out of stock?17:16
alteregoSwedeMike: probably months ago :P17:17
jattyes and it's unsupported too17:17
jattgood device tho17:17
SwedeMikeyeah, I'm actually still quite happy with it.17:17
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edheldilalterego:  well, there is, as this channel shows :)17:18
Per_n900Has anyone tried to fix a broken usb connector on n900?17:18
SwedeMikebtw, I'm still running a fairly stock PR1.3, is there a page that lists recommended community patches I should apply, like the gui fix for PR1.2 that I haven't dared installde now that I have PR1.3?17:19
alteregoedheldil: we are all legacy, well, except those that are also following MeeGo ;)17:19
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JaffaSwedeMike: The Community SSU will contain all the suggested patches.17:21
JaffaSwedeMike: Installing new versions of random system debs just causes trouble.17:22
JaffaSwedeMike: CSSU isn't stable yet, but feel free to get stuck into the testing:
edheldilalterego:  they are legacy even more. MeeGo is not even a still born baby17:22
lcukthe tallest trees in the forest do not grow overnight.17:23
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edheldilat least, that's my understanding of Nokia's plans17:23
SwedeMikeJaffa: oki, I'll wait for that then. it's my primary phone so I'm not that keen on testing stuff that doesnt have a high likelyhood of working...17:23
lcukMeeGo is still in Nokias plans according to all I read.17:23
lcukhowever, MeeGo is a collaboration17:23
alteregoYeah, I'm pretty sure Nokia are not dropping it completely, marginalising it yeah, but tbh, I think I prefer it that way.17:24
alteregoBecause we can make MeeGo flourish ourselves, and if they keep churning out yearly upgrades that utilise our work, I'm well happy.17:25
alteregoI think Elop is a fool, he said he wanted to reduce software costs by using MS, well, wouldn't it be far better to utilise us like MeeGo already does?17:25
jarkkom_it still made me wonder what was going on with meego, since they had hundreds of meego positions open globally and someone mentioned total of 1000 people working on meego in finland alone17:26
alteregoMeeGo is a community effort, those big corps backing it reduce money through sharing and getting a lot of work done for free.17:27
lcukno alterego, most of the work is not yet done for free by a long shot.17:27
alteregolcuk: well, tell that to all the devs that write all the software meego is based on. But sure, I see what you're saying.17:28
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alteregoMaybe this is partly our fault for not embracing MeeGo much earlier on, if we'd pushed harder, it might have been "ready" for Elop (pahahahah)17:28
jattElop is no fool17:29
alteregojatt: no him personally?17:29
jattElop is what the majority from shareholders wanted17:29
jattElop REPRESENTS nokia17:30
alteregoReally ...17:30
jattrespect the old man17:30
edheldilalterego:  My understanding is: Nokia created Maemo as its flagship OS, but before finishing it enough, a deal with Intel opened, promising CPU vendor backing. So they jumped ship for MeeGo, but then deal with MS opened, promising app market, and hence the possiblity to have the sane as Apple, so they jumped ship for MS. MeeGo will  be sunk when they buy a cheap torpedo :(17:30
alteregoWell, I'm not entirely convinced.17:30
alteregoedheldil: no, that's not what happened :P17:30
jattit's true17:30
lcukI personally do not see why a more blended approach cannot be achieved.17:31
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lcukbut thats enough from me on the subject17:31
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edheldilalterego:  it's not? Why do you think so?17:31
edheldilat least, it makes sense financially17:32
edheldil(for some definitions of "make sense" ;-))17:32
alteregoedheldil: maemo was an r&d project for Nokia to develop a more competitive UX based on GNU/Linux, maemo 5 was the 4/5 step in this road. Harmattan was the 5th stage, which replaced Gtk/Hildon with a full Qt based  UX, Nokia then decided they'd join up with Intel and merge their Maemo with Moblin, what you see in MeeGo handset is Harmattan.17:32
alteregoThe UX, MeeGo Touch Framework was originally DUI which is Harmattan Maemos.17:33
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jonwildo we have a use-case for opening up the fremantle MCE code?17:34
alteregoSo you see, MeeGo wasn't exactly a "jump ship" it was an evolution, maybe more like a leap of evolution, but it was still a good progression (imo) because it openned up the platform for all of us.17:34
jonwilor is it just a nice-to-have thing?17:34
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Jaffajonwil: I *think* the most common reason given is "to be able to update the kernel"; but I'm not an expert on the interactions of mce with the rest of the system.17:37
edheldilalterego:  perhaps, thank you for clarification. It still seems a bit too drastic to me, but hey, I am not Columbus developer :)17:37
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: mce is responsible for e.g managing kbd backlight. So yes, for sure we want MCE opened, so we can change this. Although there's meego mce now, which seems close enough to fremantle version of mce, except for the missing plugins - at least that's my take on it17:41
alteregoedheldil: meh, drastic, maybe. But I don't see it, because Maemo/MeeGo/Moblin they're mostly all just GNU/Linux.17:42
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alteregoThe rebase caused a lot of, well, drama, moving from deb to rpm. But look what we gained. Full bash, open components that were otherwise closed in MeeGo, daily & weekly builds of the platform, the ability to make it better ourselves and not rely on just one entity to listen and in most cases ignore us.17:43
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edheldilalterego:  but the switch means that Nokia has no product to ship now, which is the Elop-alleged problem, as far as I can see. Well, it's moot anyway :)17:46
keriofucking elop17:46
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jattagain respect the dude17:47
jatthe did everything right17:47
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mikhas-20%, I can see that17:47
alteregoedheldil: No, Elops problem is that he is impatient. Harmattan was/is pretty much ready.17:48
alteregoHe scrapped it.17:48
alteregoNow he's saying that MeeGo device will appear later this year, well, to me that sounds pretty strange, unless they're going to go proper MeeG, rather than Harmattan.17:49
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jattthey will do a meego device but only geeks/nerds will buy it17:49
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alteregojatt: I'm happy with that.17:49
Per_n900jatt: Respect? Elop is the worst kind of capitalist there is, the microsoft kind. People like him is what has held technology back for the last 20 years. (or maybe I just feel way too strongly about his)17:50
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jattyeah you will be happy but nokia won't give a damn and treat the product as a toy and nothing serious17:50
jattdude he is not working alone most of nokia's shareholders back him up17:50
jattthose people deserve respect they are no idiots17:51
MohammadAGjatt, here to troll?17:51
lcukisn't one of the highest grossing apps on Nokia Ovi a toy?17:51
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lcukhopefully it will be treated like a toy - because if it can survive a group of 3 year old kids then it can survive in your drunken stupor17:52
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MohammadAG<jatt> he did everything right <-- yep, everything he did was indeed right, apparently when you do right things, stocks drop 15%17:52
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jattI like the guy17:53
Per_n900jatt: really? In case you have not noticed... Microsoft is atleast among the younger generation considered kind of like your dads computer. Something the old guys use. Microsoft is dead and everything they touch will also die unfortunately.17:53
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jattlet's give MS a try, maybe it works out who knows?17:54
MohammadAGit won't work out17:54
sig^the kind of funny thing is that their business (revenue etc) is still growing17:54
mikhaslet's give MeeGo a try then, too17:54
sig^that's really... odd. Software business is odd.17:54
mikhasmaybe it works out who knows17:55
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alteregoMohammadAG: check out the tmo thread :)17:55
alteregoabill seems to be losing his mind again.17:55
Venemoalterego: link?17:56
alteregoWeird hw he dissapeared for a few months and suddenly comes back on Friday gone ...17:56
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jattso MS OS sucks?17:56
MohammadAGalterego, he came back after the announcement17:56
alteregoMohammadAG: obviously ;)17:57
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alteregoHe's so funny.17:57
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MohammadAGjatt, ms sucks17:58
jattso nokia is doomed?17:59
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alteregojatt: not yet.17:59
alteregoIt's too early to tell, and if they get really bad, MS will eat them up.17:59
Venemowho cares?18:00
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jattI do I bought a damn expensive n90018:00
Venemothere'll be another company instead of Nokia who will make MeeGo succeed18:00
MohammadAGthe N900 is still alive18:00
VenemoMohammadAG: yes, but that's not thanks to Nokia18:00
alteregojatt: I don't see the relavence of you owning an N900 and the current state of affairs :P18:01
alteregoI have 218:01
MohammadAGVenemo, obviously18:01
jattI agree, the last feature I found: n900 as internet router through usb18:01
jattcoolest thing ever18:01
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alteregoI like them, waiting for something new to come out for me to replace them with.18:01
alteregoEven if it's a long wait :)18:01
Venemoalterego :)18:01
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MohammadAGI want 318:02
jonwilok, list nearly finished. Items on the list are the SMS stuff (cell broadcast and other things), the issue with non-standard WPA keys and passphrases (which means opening up the connectivity UI which could lead to other enhancements as well), libbmeipc stuff (i.e. being able to get battery status and info)18:02
alteregoMohammadAG: I wouldn't say no :P18:02
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alteregoMohammadAG: though not sure what I'd do with a third18:02
MohammadAGalterego, not for myself18:03
jonwilbetter control over which network the phone connects to (i.e. the libicd_policy stuff), MCE stuff and the correct cellmo headers for the N900 (the ones in the QT SDK are not a 100% match in some cases, nor are the ones on
MohammadAGI only need 2 :P18:03
jonwilBug updated18:04
MohammadAGif I could get 2 more, I'd give them to the project members18:04
MohammadAGthen give them back in may/june18:04
jonwilI mean wiki page updated18:04
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alteregoVery noble .)18:04
alterego... :)18:04
MohammadAGthough I'd appreciate an ideapad :P18:04
jonwiloh wait, not updated yet, wiki was being strange18:04
jonwilnow its updated18:04
MohammadAGbut then again, I can't work on the dialer, which is what I want18:05
MohammadAGI already made a quick patch for the dialer18:05
jonwillisting the 6 or so license-change-requests that are still relavent18:05
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MohammadAGcan't build it, so can't test it18:05
jonwilall the rest I found are either no longer relavent (e.g. already solved)18:05
jonwilor have no concrete use case18:05
jonwilor are for things that remain closed even in meego18:06
jonwillike BME18:06
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VenemoMohammadAG: MeeGo dialer? or Maemo dialer (thought that is closed)18:06
jonwilI think I will write a wiki page linking to all source relavent to maemo not in the repositories18:06
MohammadAGMeeGo dialer18:06
VenemoMohammadAG: nice18:07
MohammadAGI can't test it, so it'll be lost somewhere18:07
jonwile.g. has a link from its package page to the repositories and source tarball18:07
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jonwilwhereas does not even though its open source18:08
MohammadAGit's not FOSS afaik18:08
jonwilit is18:09
jonwilosso-chess-ui IS foss18:09
MohammadAGthat's new18:09
jonwilI have osso-chess-ui_1.8.3-1+0m5.tar.gz on my hdd right now18:09
jonwilwith code in it18:09
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jonwilits GPL18:09
VenemoMohammadAG: why can't you test?18:10
jonwilthats one of the items that will go on this wiki page18:10
MohammadAGVenemo, missing libs18:10
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MohammadAGapparently, I need OBS or something18:11
VenemoMohammadAG: mhm18:11
VenemoMohammadAG: so why don't you18:11
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MohammadAGalso, can't get zypper to install them since it can't find them18:11
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jonwilhmmm, interesting, maemo-security-certman-applet is in non-free and has no source code yet the license file in the .deb claims its LGPL...18:17
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jonwiloh wait I found its code18:18
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jonwilwait no, thats not its code18:19
jonwilthats just something saying "its dead"18:19
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jonwilbtw is there still a need for the flasher source code/info or did that need disappear?18:31
GAN900Android, Android, Android.18:32
GAN900It's inescapable.18:32
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sig^mm, the 'droids still don't have a decent shell in them  (:18:33
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eichiisn't there a "free" version of skype on n900?18:33
sig^pain in the arse to use18:33
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jattskype on the n900 is awesome18:33
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jonwilI refuse to buy an Android handset from any vendor who isn't 100% in compliance with the GPL and releases source code for new handset concurrently with the handset release (as is required by the GPL)18:35
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Kegetysuntil you join a skype group chat and your n900 makes a new message noise every time someone says something on the chat18:35
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jattI use it for skype out and it's awesome18:35
jattyou want skype group chat->use the computer!18:36
BCMMKegetys: about that, do you know how to edit vibration patterns?18:36
sig^eh, skype's n900 page > Buy now > they're actually selling you a n900  >_<  eh, wat, where do I just download it18:36
Kegetysjatt: so you'd need two skype accounts18:36
BCMMKegetys: i'm trying to work around that by setting it to make no noise or vibration for instant messages18:36
KegetysBCMM: no idea18:36
BCMMthe impressive thing is how much CPU time it manages to use for group chat...18:36
nidOsig^: you dont download it18:37
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sig^oh, is it really built in18:37
sig^oh, there it is  ^__^  I haven't even tried doing this social media thing with it18:38
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sp3000BCMM: I suppose it's the try hard not to lose an sms goal sort of conflicting with the group chat volume there. or something18:39
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BCMMsms has a different sound to IM, so it might have a different vibration pattern too18:39
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jattwhich social media thing18:40
lcukfrals, Kathy has asked about an MMS backend to liqpostcard (since she knows it is just a pretty UI and needs delivery service)18:40
eichioh, its really build in, damn ;D never seen the last months18:40
sp3000I mean the perf part, like in might sync the world a few times per msg or something ;)18:41
lcukI think we spoke about this years ago when I wrote it18:41
lcukbut since I sent Tracy a postcard yesterday on twitter she enquired18:41
fralslcuk: fmms got a dbus interface for sending18:42
lcukooh cool18:42
lcukfor reference:
fralsor well, it opens up the sender ui with a predefined attachment/message/subject18:42
lcukthat seems reasonable18:42
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fralsits se.frals.fmms.send_via_service s:pathtofile s:subject s:messagetext18:43
lcukfrals, this is the output:,%20I%20love%20you%20loads,%20Gary%20x%20x.postcard.png18:43
trip0what pretty flowers18:44
lcuktrip0, they are her favourite :)18:44
trip0even better!@18:44
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: vibra patterns are in /etc/mce/mce.ini18:46
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lcukthanks frals, I did think you had it covered.  how would I know that MMS actually got sent (snce DBUS is non blocking)18:47
fralsyou wont ;)18:47
lcukie, generate image, call fmms, do its stuff, cleanup temp image.18:47
fralsbut its gonna popup the fmms ui for sending so the user will know ;)18:48
lcukthat part I know18:48
fralswhen launched with send_via_service fmms copies the file to its own temp storage so as long as its available for ~10seconds while fmms is starting you can remove it18:48
lcukfrals, so the images generated from postcard should just be stored in MyDocs18:48
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frals.. it should, at least ;)18:49
lcukwell it currently saves it to ~/.liqbase/..somewhere already18:49
lcukso that will be ok18:50
* GeneralAntilles facepalms at PeterMeeGo on Twitter.18:50
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javispedroFinally saw the themed tablet ux :)18:51
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javispedrointel/meego has a lot more presence here than nokia18:55
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GeneralAntillesNokia's got shit to show.18:58
GeneralAntillesJust like they've had shit to show for the past year+.18:58
GeneralAntillesand will, apparently, have shit to show for the foreseeable future.18:58
GeneralAntillesThis is their problem.18:58
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jattdude respect nokia18:59
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mirr0ryea indeed18:59
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jattElop's decision might no be popular among geeks/nerds but he did what nokia's shareholders wanted19:00
marmoutethat's why the share drop 15% ?19:00
jattElop responsibility is with the shareholders and not with zealots19:00
jattit will go up19:00
jattyou will see19:00
kerionokiaplane è fantastico19:02
kerios/shareholders/north-american shareholders affiliated with microsoft/19:03
keriowhoops, sorry for the message before, wrong window19:03
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jattit doesn't matter dude, nokia is a corporation it doesn't give a damn about some nerds19:03
jattElop did the right decision19:03
jattnokia needs _accountability_19:04
kerionokia *is* the world leader in mobile phones19:04
jattsome nerd hacking in his mom's basement has no accountability19:04
jatta corporation like ms has19:04
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DocScrutinizerjatt: stop stating bullshit here! I fnokia's shareholders wanted Elop to act this way, then damn tell me why the rating dropped by a 20% during 2 days after his announcement!19:04
jattI have no idea dude19:05
jattbut it will go up19:05
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DocScrutinizerjatt: also it's no up to you to teach chanops about respect19:05
DocScrutinizerbottom line: Though I respect your opinion, I will consider kicking or banning you on next psoting where you instrucz other people to respect somebody19:06
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kerioyeah, instruczing other people in a psot is not cool19:07
DocScrutinizerkerio: stfu :-P19:07
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jattok, but don't be so harsh on Elop he is trying his best for the company, peace19:09
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kerioyeah, for his company19:12
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jattwhat's funny19:16
pupnikwell if you go back further his company is adobe19:16
pupnikafaik yes19:16
jattthe guy is a maverik19:16
nidOmaybe he secretly wants nokia to start putting juniper hardware in nokia devices!19:17
jattjust what nokia needs19:17
jatthe has been everywhere19:17
jatthe is a good mole19:17
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pupniki know what agile move would save the company19:18
pupnikandroid execution environment in meego19:19
jattwon't happen19:19
pupniki know that19:20
pupnikwe know what will happen19:20
jattnokia is like 5 years late19:20
jattbehind the iPhone19:20
jattthere is no way to catch them up19:20
pupnikit's ahead of the iphone19:20
pupniksee maemo19:20
jattI have an n900 running maemo19:20
jattand is like years behind the IPhone19:21
jattI love my n900 tho19:21
pupnikwhat is 'years behind'19:21
trip05 years behind in terms of what?19:21
pupnikuse sentences, baby19:21
jattI am telling you19:21
pupnikyou're trolling me19:21
pupniklook above19:22
pupnikthe twitter generation can't even type a thought19:22
trip0technology... maybe the form factor of the n900.  that's it though. cpu and camera (both) are right on even today19:22
jattbattery life19:22
trip0software... I'm still not buying it.  maybe iOS is snappier and prettier, but not 5 years so19:23
jattyou are in denial19:23
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trip0i'm not buying the battery life either.  iphone lasts about a day, same as the n90019:23
trip0(given the same usage pattern)19:23
jattso why is the Iphone so successful?19:24
jattnokia did something wrong for sure19:24
jattthey are catching up19:24
trip0no, i'm not in denial.  the fact that I can multitask is iOS + 2 years ahead19:24
trip0iphone is successful for 2 reasons19:24
nidOprimarily, because it's marketed well and now has momentum19:24
jattpupnik, baby, what do you think?19:24
trip01) it's pretty (hardware and software)19:24
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trip02) it's got the apple hype machine behind it19:24
nidOand well i say marketed well i mean markets on some points that people dont know other phones can already do19:24
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rm_workisn't alien dalvik moving along well?19:25
rm_workjatt: so you think that won't work?19:25
rm_workthey're supposedly demoing it at MWC, are there any reports of whether they did or not, and what it looked like?19:25
rm_workor did i miss something19:25
trip0when you are first to the game with reason 1, reason 2 isn't hard to achieve19:25
trip0once you own mindshare, your gold19:25
jattit's another layer of indirection it will be slow as hell19:25
javispedrorm_work: their booth doesn't look welcoming to random passengers19:25
jattvm over vm over vm argh19:26
rm_workthe video of it at the bottom of that article is running on n900 and looks good...19:26
jattthat's crap19:26
jattdo the right thing on metal19:26
jattright away19:26
javispedrojatt: that is completely untrue19:26
jattyou can run java applications over a vm which runs over an emulator which runs over an abstraction layer which runs wtf19:27
trip0java applications run on one vm19:27
jattuntil there is fine19:27
jattbut put another vm on top19:27
jattand another19:27
rm_worksorry was lagging apparently19:27
jattthen things become silly19:27
trip0why is there another vm on top?19:27
javispedrowhich one?19:27
rm_workjust caught like two pages of chat19:27
trip0Dalvik is the VM19:28
trip0there is no other19:28
jattand it runs on the arm processors?19:28
jattalright then everything is cool19:28
trip0Dalvik is native code19:28
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rm_workwhich is why that confused me19:28
rm_work<pupnik> android execution environment in meego19:28
rm_work<jatt> won't happen19:28
rm_workit already happened19:29
rm_workjust not public yet19:29
jattsend me the repository to install it19:29
jattnot public yet?19:29
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jattwtf is that19:29
jatthow will they test it?19:29
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keriois it just a chroot?19:29
trip0*they* test it however they want.  we don't until they make it public19:29
jattthis is just vaporware19:30
jattlike duke nukem forever19:30
trip0right. until they release it19:30
jattwhen will it be released?19:30
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nidOwell, may for dnf19:31
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keriojatt: well they released a public demo19:33
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keriomay 6th is the release date19:33
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rm_workdamn timeouts19:35
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MohammadAGluckily, Nokia got the N9 right, so we have a replacement for DNF19:36
javispedrojust saw alien dalvik19:37
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javispedroits real19:37
BCMMjavispedro: so will we be able to have it, and what's the deal with licensing?19:37
javispedrooem only19:38
javispedronot even app developers, which seems like a weird decision to me...19:38
javispedro(told them exactly that)19:38
BCMMit uses code from the real Dalvik, right? isn't that Apache licensed?19:39
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javispedronope it's their own code19:39
BCMMoh, looks like i don't understand the apache license19:39
BCMMit's more BSD-ish19:39
MohammadAGNokiaPlanB eh...19:39
javispedrobut its exactly as in the demo video19:39
javispedroslightly faster than the real droid phone they chose19:40
BCMMso what stops an unmodified Dalvik VM running on top of a proper linux kernel?19:40
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BCMMor is the main problem making it render to X-windows?19:41
MohammadAGjavispedro, I packed some flash grenades in your bag, I trust you can infiltrate their stand and get a device with alien dalvik19:41
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javispedroMohammadAG: aw, I'm out already ;)19:43
MohammadAGjavispedro, then can you head to finland and take care of elop?19:44
BCMMyou used all the flashbangs already? how?19:44
pupnikBCMM: see the discussion here:
javispedrobtw no native android apps19:44
pupnikyes that's the problem with their approach19:44
MohammadAGone question19:45
* DocScrutinizer sighs on geberal chanop directive to not touch /ignore19:45
MohammadAGtheoretically, wouldn't it be possible to run a VM with any OS you want?19:45
MohammadAGandroid included19:45
MohammadAGit was already demoed by VMWare on an N81019:45
pupnikhave you used dosbox MohammadAG ?19:45
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MohammadAGthat emulates DOS, not any OS19:46
pupnikhave you?19:46
pupnikNo, ok.19:46
BCMMiirc, someone managed to boot OS X, very slowly, in a VM on an n90019:46
MohammadAGyes, I have19:46
lardmancu later chaps19:47
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MohammadAGBCMM, yeah, took 15 minutes to open about :p19:47
pupnikMohammadAG: forget about running another modern phone OS in a VM.  It would be uncompetitively slow.19:48
MohammadAGbut that's emulation19:48
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MohammadAGdosbox = emulation19:48
DocScrutinizerdosbox is an emulator, not a VM19:48
MohammadAGrunning android in a chroot is not emulation19:48
MohammadAGthough I'm talking about something like VMWare Player19:49
pupnikthat's emulation19:49
MohammadAGVMWare player is not emulation19:49
jacekowskithat's virtualisation19:49
jacekowskiand dosbox isn't emulator19:49
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MohammadAGI'm running an X86 OS, on an X86 machine19:49
jacekowskidosbox is a vm19:49
jacekowskion x8619:49
jacekowskior that was dosemu19:49
LjLdosbox is a PC emulator19:50
jacekowskithere was couple does emulators/vm's for linux one of them was using virtual mode19:50
MohammadAGregardless, that's x86 on arm19:51
MohammadAGnot arm on arm19:51
jacekowskiand it's slow19:51
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LjLhow might i press Alt on N810's terminal?19:59
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pupnikLjL: you can bind keys to the status bar with gconf settings20:01
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javispedroerr... ran out of battery :(20:05
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javispedrowell, as I was saying... no native apps but he also said "yet". So seems that they are emulating more of Android in the near future.20:05
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MohammadAG-Martinp23- [Global Notice] Hi folks! As you'll have noticed, we just lost about half the network due to hub issues. We're trying to put together what we can! Thanks for your patience.20:12
DocScrutinizeryeah thanks20:13
jacekowskiit wouldn't be bad idea for them to have some fault tolerant hubs20:13
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MohammadAGjavispedro, since when does half of freenode's network run on your battery?20:13
jacekowskilike two hubs20:13
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jacekowskiMohammadAG: do you have links to that android thing20:14
* DocScrutinizer wonders idly what's the definition od hub in a dsitributed-servers infrasructure20:14
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javispedroMohammadAG: probably thats why my battery runs out so fast20:15
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jacekowskidownload links i mean20:15
DocScrutinizerwell, let's say I don't care enough about IRC to learn20:16
jacekowskias long as there is no download links i'm not going to believe in that20:16
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MohammadAGjacekowski, no one has it20:16
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jacekowskithen it doesn't exist20:16
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javispedrojacekowski: they gave me a demo :)20:17
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jacekowskijavispedro: share it20:17
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javispedroI mean a live demo20:18
javispedroon a N90020:18
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javispedro(that was also beeping due to low battery. this is a plague...)20:19
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jacekowskiwhere are you?20:19
javispedroexiting mwc201120:20
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jacekowskiwhere is it20:20
* javispedro watches jacekowski teleport20:21
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MohammadAGjavispedro, I don't remember hildon stuff, do you what the text part in Settings > About product is called?20:21
javispedronox-, thats single line20:22
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javispedrohildontextview if anything20:22
MohammadAGI'd expect it to be called buffer or something20:22
jacekowskihmm, and i could have been in barcelona20:22
jacekowskifor almost free20:22
jacekowskiif i only knew20:22
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* javispedro gives up with freenode... either way I could just give the thing a few minutes of charge20:23
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javispedroso it's beeping again, bye.20:24
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RST38h...The palates generation of new teeth will continue until the entire palate has been covered, proceeding down the victims throat and esophagus...20:24
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: moar bizarre plz20:26
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RST38h...should be 'fed' on a bimonthly basis; standard feed consists of a wooden fishing vessel, typically at least 15 metres in length and preferably in a dilapidated condition...20:27
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DocScrutinizersounds like sex pistols' version of moby dick20:28
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RST38hDoc: SCP-421.20:28
DocScrutinizerwhatever that means20:28
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MohammadAGI wonder how I could get CSSU version number20:37
korhojoaWhy do people freak out when you escape stuff?20:37
korhojoaLike when you do this=20:37
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jacekowskibecause you are only supposed to escape escapeable characters20:38
korhojoathat was an example.20:38
MohammadAGhow do I read a file in C?20:38
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MohammadAGin Qt/C++ I use QFile20:38
DocScrutinizerfopen(), read() ??20:38
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jacekowskiopen and read20:39
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MohammadAGand what's the FILE *fd thing I see in some sources?20:39
jacekowskior fopen and fread20:39
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DocScrutinizera FILE obviously20:39
jacekowskiMohammadAG: it's a filedescriptor20:39
DocScrutinizernothing esle matters to you20:39
MohammadAGright, what should I #include?20:39
MohammadAGactually, nvm, man fopen20:39
jacekowskiMohammadAG: but you have to know two things there are two sets of functions20:39
jacekowskiMohammadAG: open/read/write/seek20:40
jacekowskiMohammadAG: fope/fread/fwrite/fseek20:40
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jacekowskiMohammadAG: yeah lseek instead of seek20:41
MohammadAGactually, I only need to check if the file exists20:41
jacekowskiMohammadAG: then stat is way to go20:41
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jacekowskiman 3 stat20:41
jacekowskiyou have to open file to use fstat20:42
korhojoawhat's the deal with these man numbers. something about different types of programs, but I never really realized when you have to use them20:42
jacekowskifor stat you just stat file by path/name20:42
jacekowskikorhojoa: different sections20:42
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jacekowskifor example section 3 has all programmer stuff for C20:42
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DocScrutinizerkorhojoa: you usually don't need to use them20:42
jacekowskiand if you type just man open20:43
jacekowskiit will open open from section one20:43
jacekowskiNAME openvt - start a program on a new virtual terminal (VT).20:43
jacekowskibut open in section three is20:43
jacekowskiNAME open - open a file20:43
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jacekowskiit's like a chapter sort of thing20:43
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> man open20:44
DocScrutinizerMan: find all matching manual pages20:44
DocScrutinizer * open (n)20:44
DocScrutinizer   open (2)20:44
DocScrutinizer   open (3p)20:44
DocScrutinizer   open (3pm)20:44
DocScrutinizerMan: Welche Manual-Seite wollen Sie haben?20:44
jacekowskiugh german20:44
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: I was too lazy to type LANG=C man open20:45
HtheBsup all20:45
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smharwhere is Documents and Audio folder? they do not appear when mounting the N90020:45
jacekowskismhar: it's .documends20:46
jacekowskismhar: and .sounds20:46
DocScrutinizerkorhojoa: man man20:46
DocScrutinizeris your friend20:46
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jacekowskiman woman20:46
jacekowskior woman man20:46
korhojoaDocScrutinizer: i tried man woman20:46
korhojoabut nothing happened20:47
MohammadAGwouldn't this work?
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fnordianslipi once wanted to read the man page for "Boot Up Manager", but i didn't have it installed, so I googled "man bum".  Big mistake :(20:47
DocScrutinizerI guess the correct answer should've been "there's no help for women"20:47
MohammadAGneed to figure out a way to read version number20:47
jacekowskifnordianslip: i just tried it20:48
jacekowskiThieves push Pepsi bottle up man's bum |
jacekowski21 Nov 2007 ... It doesn't take a doctor to work out the results of this X-ray.20:48 - Similar20:48
fnordianslipmind you, this was at work, so the requests would have been logged too20:49
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jacekowskii'm at home and bt is probably logging it anyways20:49
jacekowskior some echelon shit20:50
HtheBI was wondering if we can run webOS apps on the N90020:50
HtheB(not just the games)20:50
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: echelon segfaulted on parsing the tap of this chan, at 2008-11-23 17:51:33 GMT20:51
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: what happened then?20:51
HtheBMohammadAG: you think it's possible?20:51
DocScrutinizerHtheB: I bet the emulator doesn't care if it's labeled game20:52
HtheBim talking about apps :) not games20:52
infobotAll conversations are logged to Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.20:52
infobotit has been said that log is located at and the latest log is located at
smharoops, I almost missed those .folders and wiped my N900 in the flashing20:53
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i don't see anything there20:54
DocScrutinizerI guess I must kill jack87, and reclaim log20:54
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HtheBDocScrutinizer, what exactly do you mean by emulator20:55
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DocScrutinizerI actually mean the ldpreload framework that javispedro built for running webos games on fremantle20:55
HtheBthe games run on SDL afair20:56
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HtheBbut the apps, are just like "html" stuff :p20:56
HtheBjust wondeirng if there is someway to run those20:56
jacekowskithere is a lot of native code as well20:56
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HtheBjust extraced an app, and it all has just .js files20:57
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DocScrutinizerwb javispedro20:57
javispedroHtheB: "Web"OS ;)20:57
HtheBjavispedro: yeah20:57
HtheBthats why I Was wondering :p20:57
jacekowskiHtheB: some apps are20:57
jacekowskiHtheB: but there are fully native linux code apps20:57
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HtheBI was looking into the Grooveshark app20:58
HtheBhave a look20:58
javispedroI asked a HP guy if they were planning on open sourcing Enyo (their JS widget framework) as it seems to work under Firefox.20:58
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HtheB*searching the file*20:58
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javispedroHis answer "Maybe. Sign the NDA first" ;)20:58
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javispedro(they have some kind of early preview program where you sign an nda and they ship you the version that runs under desktop browser)20:58
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javispedroHtheB: why I feel that is some piracy related link.21:00
HtheBjavispedro: it's free :)21:00
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javispedroalso funny is that Nokia doesn't appear in the "Participating MeeGo Ecosystem Partners" thing.21:04
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timeless_xchatwhy is that funny?21:06
timeless_xchatwe don't participate21:07
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HtheBjavispedro: did u check the link? :)21:07
javispedroHtheB: no, why do I'd do? There's no way I'm recreating Mojo from scratch.21:09
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javispedrotimeless_xchat: ok, good point.21:10
JaffaMohammadAG: read version of what?21:10
MohammadAGthe CSSU21:11
MohammadAGdpkg -l mp-fremantle-community-pr is a way, but I need to do it in C21:12
HtheBYou know what....21:12
HtheBI wish I was like this guy eating chickn under a rainbow and nothing to worry about anything at all.. just... eating chicken... hmmmmm <321:13
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timeless_xchatmohammadag : err, system ()? it wouldn't be a big deal...21:15
timeless_xchator if you have gtk, there's a fancier function21:16
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MohammadAGthe only reason I'm doing this in C is because it's plugging into the control panel for the CSSU21:16
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MohammadAGso yeah, I have gtk21:17
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rcgMohammadAG: why don't you use Qt for a control panel entry etc.?21:18
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MohammadAGcause it's slow21:19
RST38hMeanwhile: Singapore media claim that fake rice is being distributed in the Chinese town of Taiyuan, in Shaanxi province... This "rice" is a mix of potatoes, sweet potatoes, and plastic. It is formed by mixing the potatoes and sweet potatoes into the shape of rice grains, then adding industrial synthetic resins.21:19
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timeless_xchatmohammadag : my control panel spawns a script, you can borrow its code21:19
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BCMMRST38h: that's horrifyingly creative...21:19
MohammadAGtimeless_xchat, that's slow too :P21:20
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MohammadAGcompared to pure gtk applets21:20
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javispedroaha, so microsoft did it21:24
javispedrovisual basic support for wp7 ;)21:24
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you're a gifted young programmer, but you obviously need more experience about real cost of certain code sequences, per CPU cycles and per memory footprint21:24
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DocScrutinizera single system() call is negligible for a linear (not looping) interactive app. As is starting a shell to execute a script21:27
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MohammadAGsystem() calls a shell, that's why I don't use it21:27
DocScrutinizerwhat's wrong with calling a shell?21:27
MohammadAGand gifted? I only learned programming from #maemo :)21:27
DocScrutinizereven init calls a shell21:27
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javispedronot in android! for performance!21:28
fnordiansliphmm. was going to comment on bug 11826 for the community SSU, went to look in "About Product" and the first 3 lines say "null".  Is this a known issue?21:28
javispedro( ;) )21:28
povbotBug hildon-application-manager random crashes21:28
RST38hMohammad: I think you will be ok :)21:28
RST38hNo matter how you have learnt programming21:28
MohammadAG <-- first issues already visible, and it's not functional :p21:28
smharis this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb?21:29
MohammadAGI already set editing to false, yet the pointer's still visible21:29
RST38hthere may be a separate setting to hide the pointer21:29
DocScrutinizersmhar: yup, afaik21:29
timeless_xchatmohammadag: i'm only suggesting the spawn call21:29
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javispedroMohammadAG: is that a text view?21:30
javispedrogtk_text_view_set/get_editable and or gtk_text_view_set/get_cursor_visible21:31
RST38hsatan.c: int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");spawn("satan");return(0); }21:31
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javispedroRST38h: wrap it in "try { spawn("satan"); } catch (SatanicException& ex)21:32
* RST38h secretly hopes this will crash Linux21:32
DocScrutinizer#!/bin/sh \n$0 \n$021:32
RST38hLinux does not look like all that hard to crash21:33
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javispedrowhat's up with those two users, they keep netsplitting.21:33
DocScrutinizer#!/bin/sh \n$0& \n$0&21:33
nox-RST38h, its a (crude version of) a forkbomb21:33
RST38hforgot an &, didn't you?21:33
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RST38hnox: thanks, Cpt Obvious21:33
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: should I enable join/quit msgs on my client?21:34
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timelessyou can skip the second & fwiw21:35
RST38hVerizon CTO says "meh" to Microsokia21:35
javispedroDocScrutinizer: nope21:35
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DocScrutinizertimeless: yup. Or bracket it with while true; do ... done21:35
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pupnik_build phones with nice cpus, radios, screens, and linux.  how hard is that21:36
RST38hpupnik: sounds like android =)21:37
DocScrutinizersounds like the popular pupnik's philosophical evening monthly21:37
pupniksorry i b quiet21:38
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MohammadAGjavispedro, thanks :D21:40
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MohammadAGjavispedro, it's possible to add an icon there right?21:49
MohammadAGsomething like NOKIA in About Product, was thinking we could add the logo21:49
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RST38hCan't insert icon into the widget, afaik21:50
RST38hMay be able to insert it into the dialog though21:50
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javispedroyou can, but it's like some black art21:51
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javispedrobasically textview has some support for "attaching" subwidgets to certain characters21:52
trxjust create an image and position it over the text widget21:52
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trxyou dont have to insert it into the text wigdet21:52
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MohammadAGjavispedro, why not just add a box with the text view and the image to the pannablearea?21:54
javispedroMohammadAG: well that's why RST38h suggested, not what Nokia does but good enough.21:54
MohammadAGoh for some reason I didn't read what he said :|21:55
* DocScrutinizer wonders what's a panna blearea21:55
* javispedro is trying to guess why VMware decided to crash today21:56
MohammadAGyou were reading about Nokia and MS's partnership21:56
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MohammadAGum, if GtkPixmap is deprecated what should I use?21:58
smharthere are too many files and I am worried.. is this the latest image I should use? RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ?21:58
SpeedEvil1Does anyone happen to know if I can use a micro-sim in a n900. (with extra spacers)21:58
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MohammadAGI hate gtk's docs, Qt's ones are a lot better tbh21:58
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MohammadAGSpeedEvil, probably, they're only physically different I think21:59
RST38hNOK is up!21:59
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MohammadAGany ideas how to bring it down? I have a bet to win!21:59
javispedroMohammadAG: GtkImage21:59
DocScrutinizer6.80 ASK, not exactly what I call "up"22:01
ieatlintRST38h: it's probably a bunch of people buying stock to support :P22:01
DocScrutinizerI 'bought' at 7.01 :-P22:01
javispedroit's probably the end of all things22:01
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admiral0i'm having qt mobility thet is extremely slow22:03
admiral017 secs for retrieving 10 SMS + every contact22:03
admiral010 contacts to be exact22:04
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ieatlinti like that RIM got pissy at elops "now it's a three horse race" comment, insisting they're still relevant22:06
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DocScrutinizerwatching NOK live is as funny as watching current of a LiIon in trickle charge22:07
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smharis this the flasher for N900: maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb? will this image flash all N900 ?22:07
ieatlintyeah, but i know the li-ion will keep going up then22:08
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smharI mean is this image the 'FIASCO' image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin ?22:09
scoobertronsmhar: I believe so, I just flashed the kernel from that this afternoon22:10
smharscoobertron, not just the kernel, I want to flash the whole system22:11
ieatlinti hope you have all seen btw :)22:11
scoobertronsmhar: sorry, I wasn't clear - that is the fiasco image I just didn't flash the whole thing22:12
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smharscoobertron, you mean I can use this image and it WIll flash the 'whole thing'?22:12
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ieatlinti think has a real shot22:13
RST38hit is down to K now? what will happen when they get to Z?22:14
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derfYou mean ?22:14
ieatlintthey're on to numbers now22:15
scoobertronsmhar: it will reflash the root file system - it is all explained here, etc22:15
trumeeShould this not be fixed in Maemo too?
povbotBug 12582: was not found.22:15
ieatlinti'm severely disappointed with .. should've been a plan about switching to plan 922:16
BCMMindeed it should...22:17
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BCMMwhat a lot of nokiaplanfoo sites. sell nokia, buy shares in domain registrars...22:20
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trumeeah, fixed in harmattan,
povbotBug 8615: telepathy-sofiasip uses lots of memory and causes the phone to swap22:22
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smharscoobertron, I searched , but could not find any 'vanilla' or 'eMMC' image for pr1.3, how could I flash the whole system?22:23
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smharor is this the FIASCO image for PR1.3: RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin ?22:26
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trxcan a qt PushButton have semi-transparency?22:27
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scoobertronRX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin on the page you linked is the latest vanilla emmc image22:28
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scoobertronRX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the latest fiasco image (though it is not labelled as such)22:29
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rm_workreading The Great Gatsby in highschool made me want to stab my eyes out and burn them. Not sure why i would ever want to play a related game, or see a related movie, lol22:30
maybeArghjust be glad you never had to read "the scarlet letter"22:30
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MohammadAGjavispedro, hm, that didn't give me the result I wanted22:32
MohammadAGwhat does Nokia do to get the image in there?22:33
* javispedro downloads the windows phone 7 sdk in preparation of tomorrow's ms dev event22:33
smharscoobertron, RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is the Global image, I just downloaded the Middle East image: RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2.003_PR_COMBINED_003_ARM.bin, is there a difference?22:33
scoobertronsmhar: sorry, yes - just get whichever one you need22:34
jacekowskismhar: get global one22:34
timelesssmhar: fewer people use non global22:34
timelessso the non global may have random crippled features22:34
timelessthe indian one for instance iirc is missing skype22:34
smhartimeless, good idea22:35
timelessgenerally speaking the global one gets updates faster22:35
javispedroMohammadAG: probably anchors22:35
timelessbecause the others required pointless approvals by regional managers22:35
timeless(ignore the fact that there will almost certainly not be more updates from nokia)22:35
timelessbasically: stay away from regional or vendor images. *ALWAYS*22:36
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ieatlinttrx: i'm not you can easily modify it to22:36
ieatlintwoo, lag22:36
ieatlinttrx: look to see if style sheets by some chance allow it..22:36
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javispedroMohammadAG: you can grep the binary for "gtk_text_view_add_child" if you want to be sure ;)22:37
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HtheBMohammadAG: is the bug about the homescreen already reported?22:38
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trxieatlint ill check that, ty22:38
HtheBeverytime when I reboot the phone with the CSSU, it removes the picture from the homescreen (photoframe widget)22:38
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MohammadAGthen it's something with that widget22:39
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HtheBalso encountered that it resets the browser settings (like the rocker buttons automatically changes into "zoom" )22:39
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ieatlinttrx: might be able to do something like set its background colour with an alpha channel22:39
HtheBMohammadAG: it worked fine before the CSSU22:39
MohammadAGHtheB, maybe your /home is f'd up?22:40
trxieatlint i found this : QPushButton { color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 50%) } ill give it a try22:40
HtheBcould be :(22:40
MohammadAGit's not the first time I've seen you complain about lost settings (bluetooth)22:40
HtheBWill send my N900 soon22:40
MohammadAGI suggest you stop overclocking22:40
HtheBheh :D22:40
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random-900hi all22:41
HtheBok ok22:41
* HtheB Shuts his trap22:41
random-900can anyone please tell me what flasher tool to download for a 64 bit fedora 14 for flashing n900?22:41
MohammadAGgtk_text_buffer_insert_pixbuf javispedro22:42
random-900i'm on this page and it has 32 bit installs for flasher tool.22:42
javispedroMohammadAG: even better22:43
trxieatlint it works just fine, ty for the tip :)22:43
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ieatlintnp, glad it worked :)22:43
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javispedroMohammadAG: *checks docs for that function* is easier than what I had in mind, you can get the text iter from a numerical position or line number (see gtk_text_buffer_get_iter_at_*)22:44
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MohammadAGjavispedro, I'm reading abuot GdkPixbuf atm, can't find a way to make one22:44
scoobertronrandom-900: probably the tar.gz - check the wiki page I linked for more details22:45
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javispedroMohammadAG: gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file22:45
javispedroMohammadAG: what do you use to read the gtk+ documentation?22:45
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MohammadAGjavispedro, err, my browser?22:48
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javispedroMohammadAG: download devhelp and libgtk*doc22:48
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javispedrodepending on your distro22:48
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scoobertronis anyone using transitoncontrol.  I just downloaded it and it wont start.22:50
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scoobertronerror message is ConfigParser.NoOptionError: no option 'angle' in section: rotate22:51
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MohammadAGjavispedro, mind having a look at it?
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javispedrowell, seems ok for a quick job22:57
alteregoIs there something wrong with it?22:57
javispedroyou can actually do multiline strings in C, MohammadAG.22:57
javispedroputs("This is an example\n"22:57
alteregoWhen does that stuff get tidied up?22:57
javispedro"of a multiline string");22:57
MohammadAGjavispedro, it doesn't display the image :P22:58
alteregoI'd stick it into some kind of info-cssu file under /etc and load it in tbh22:59
javispedrodoes it exist ("/") ?22:59
MohammadAGof course22:59
javispedro(weird place to put it)22:59
alteregoIn root?23:00
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MohammadAGjavispedro, I put a lot of things in /, for testing23:01
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ZogGMohammadAG how far did you get with screenlock?23:01
MohammadAGsince nautilus opens that dir by default when I sftp in23:01
MohammadAGZogG, stalled it for a while23:01
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alteregoMohammadAG: I'd stick something like /etc/cssu-version and load that in for the version string23:02
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alteregoI'd also have the list of contribs loaded from /usr/share/doc/cssu23:02
alteregowhere cssu is your meta package name23:03
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MohammadAG/usr/share/doc is deleted on each package installation23:03
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alteregoWell, /usr/share/cssu/contributors then :P23:04
* javispedro kills bill gates because of fscking slow download server23:04
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alteregojavispedro: downloading the WP7 sdk? :P23:04
javispedrothat includes full visual studio, yes.23:04
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MohammadAGremind me why people like gtk over Qt again?23:05
alteregoI've got the latest vs23:05
alteregoMohammadAG: do it in Qt :P23:05
chxMohammadAG: people like suffering.23:05
javispedrowho? =)23:05
MohammadAGalterego, slow23:05
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javispedrosomething's weird on23:05
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javispedroMohammadAG: GtkTextIter is not supposed to be a pointer23:06
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javispedro(it's a miracle this didn't crash btw)23:06
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javispedrobasically, GtkTextIter iter; and gtk_text_buffer_get_start_iter (buffer, &iter);23:07
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ZogGMohammadAG wouldn't be it better to make it just "plugin" way23:08
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MohammadAGdo miracles happen a lot in gtk? it's not the first time I messed up and it worked :P23:08
ZogGso after you can add any locker you want23:08
rm_workwith GTK anything could happen23:08
MohammadAGZogG, that's the problem23:08
MohammadAGcloning everything done by the systemui is annoying23:09
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rm_workis QT Threadsafe?23:09
rm_workbecause GTK *explodes* if you use threads23:09
ZogGMohammadAG why should you clone?23:09
javispedrorm_work: UI toolkits generally aren't23:09
ZogGyou should cut the original one23:09
ZogGand make hildon handle the thing23:09
rm_workjavispedro: T_T23:09
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MohammadAGZogG, cut is such an easy word23:10
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ZogGyeah but anyway if you want to do it23:11
javispedroMohammadAG: this miracle happened because you initialized everything to NULL ;)23:11
lardmanrm_you: threadsafe as along as you don't try to manipulate UI elements23:12
lardmanrm_you: but then the same is true of gtk+23:12
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MohammadAGjavispedro, hah23:13
* alterego wonders why they disabled bluetooth tethering for data in the N900s connection dialog23:14
MohammadAGjavispedro, btw, should I clear anything from memory?23:14
alteregoMohammadAG: yes23:15
alteregoexecute should block23:15
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MohammadAGyeah, I realize that23:15
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MohammadAGthen when the dialog is closed I should clear23:15
MohammadAGbut what I should clear :P23:16
scoobertronI installed the theme customiser app and now there is no dark background behind the menu and task switcher23:16
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javispedrothat's not entirely true23:16
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scoobertrondoes anyone know how to get it back?23:16
javispedroMohammadAG: gtk will free a dialog and children when closed (note: not the same as gtk_widget_hide)23:16
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javispedroMohammadAG: either way if plugin_execute has to block, look at gtk_dialog_run23:17
alteregojavispedro: really? didn't know that :)23:17
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alteregoIt doesn't _have_ to block, but it should :)23:18
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javispedroalterego: it's implemented as the default handler for the delete event iirc23:18
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MohammadAGjavispedro, already done that23:18
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MohammadAGgtk_dialog_run (GTK_DIALOG(dialog));23:19
MohammadAGbtw, why does the compiler complain without GTK_DIALOG()?23:19
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MohammadAGsometimes, I like Nokia23:19
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MohammadAGI don't have to create a .desktop file to test this23:20
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MohammadAGI'm just replacing :P23:20
javispedro"dialog" is a "GtkWindow" not a GtkDialog23:20
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MohammadAGthen why does it complain without GTK_WINDOW() here gtk_window_set_title (GTK_WINDOW(dialog), "About Maemo 5 Community SSU"); :P23:20
javispedrobecause *looks at your snippet* "dialog" is neither Window nor Dialog, it is GtkWidget =)23:21
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Sc0rpiusbecause dialog is not a GtkWindow23:21
Sc0rpiusit's a GtkDialog23:21
Sc0rpiusthings that happen when you try to program object oriented in ANSI C :P23:21
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javispedrothe issue with gtk+ docs is that it's not entirely clear for some functions ownership of objects23:22
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Sc0rpiusI guess I'd need to read the code23:22
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Sc0rpiusbut right now, I need a shower.23:24
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javispedroMohammadAG: you might be missing a g_object_unref(image) after text_buffer_insert_pixbuf23:25
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Sc0rpiusso splits continue, Freenode is being hit by a DDoS huh?23:25
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javispedroMohammadAG: because from reading the code, insert_image doesn't take ownership of the image object.23:25
MohammadAGjavispedro, I was doing it at the end23:25
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MohammadAGyep, works fine if done after the insert23:26
MohammadAGty javispedro :)23:26
javispedrosame for the text buffer btw23:27
javispedrohere hildon docs are clear: If you owned a reference to buffer before passing it to this function, you must remove that reference yourself23:27
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RST38hMotorola's corporate vice president of software and services product management, Christy Wyatt, said that while she would never say never, she doesn't envision Motorola using Microsoft's OS23:29
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jattnever say never to ms23:30
Sc0rpiusthere's an interesting interview in engadget to Elop, he talks about MeeGo23:31
Sc0rpius <--- there23:31
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Sc0rpiusno, it's a video23:32
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MohammadAGsummarize it :p23:32
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ieatlintno transcript, but to summarise, he insists they are keeping meego in devel, and it may be part of the "next generation of disruption"23:32
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jatthopefully it shows Elop as the good guy23:32
javispedrowhere by disruption he means "developers disruption by moving it to yet another toolkit"23:32
ieatlintjump to about 8min into the video to see the meego part23:33
MohammadAGthe good guy he isn't23:33
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jatthe ain't the devil23:33
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MohammadAGhe's the devil's spawn then :P23:33
ieatlinti'd like to see figures on alcohol sales in finland for last weekend23:33
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jattif nokia goes down, finland goes down too23:34
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RST38hieatlint: letushope he is sincere23:35
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* RST38h is not against meego/maemo going back to diablo times, in principle23:35
RST38hYes, it will be a niche device, but with a well defined loyal niche23:35
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ieatlinti doubt he is exactly23:35
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ieatlinti don't believe we'll ever see a nokia meego device23:36
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Sc0rpiushe says MeeGo will be the "next major wave" or something like that23:37
RST38htalk, more talk23:37
jattsee, he is good23:37
ieatlinthe's careful to say it may be23:37
Sc0rpiuswhat I understand is that they need to sell devices NOW and MeeGo is clearly not ready23:37
jatthe wants the best for nokia and the Community23:37
RST38hyea right23:37
ieatlinthe can't speak definitively of nokia's plans that far off23:37
Sc0rpiusok lemme rephrase23:37
RST38hHe does not even know what the "community"is about23:37
Sc0rpiuswhat I want to understand in my ideal world is... (cut & paste the rest)23:37
ieatlintSc0rpius: correct, meego is not ready23:37
* GeneralAntilles just hopes for an OMAP4 MeeGo device with lots of support.23:37
* GeneralAntilles falls over dead.23:38
Sc0rpiusit is not ready and it won't be for at least one more year, being optimistic23:38
jattone year!?23:38
GeneralAntillesSc0rpius: because Nokia is incompetent.23:38
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Sc0rpiusWP7 is ready and they are desperate since Symbian^3 is not working in the smartphone section23:38
* RST38h smiles evilly and reminds that there is Maemo base OS23:38
RST38hYes, it is Debian, but it works.23:38
ieatlintwp7 isn't ready either :P23:38
jattWP7 is ready but full of bugs23:38
Sc0rpiusif the company is yours, what would you do? have a rough year, or sell some cells to stupid people and then enter 2012 with something very good?23:38
vi_baby your n900 chaps, it is the last of its kind23:38
ieatlintSc0rpius: i'd go with a mobile platform that works23:39
ieatlintwhich is not wp723:39
Sc0rpiusok and which one it is?23:39
Sc0rpiusI'd kill you if you say Android23:39
jattmaemo works, but is for nerds23:39
ieatlintwebos would be my first choice23:39
Sc0rpiusMaemo could have worked for everybody, that was the stupid mistake of Nokia23:39
GeneralAntillesSc0rpius: problem goes a few years back.23:39
ieatlintmaemo isn't polished23:39
RST38hSc0rpius: Obviously, you would further wreak your company by betting on somebody else's platform that has neither ecosystem nor generally required features23:39
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javispedroGeneralAntilles: OMAP4?
RST38hSc0rpius: You would then get your bonus and leave23:40
vi_maemo is fine for noobz23:40
ieatlintomg, people need to stop saying "ecosystem" and "disruption"23:40
vi_maemo was ready23:40
Sc0rpiusthey could have improved the GUI of Maemo and make everybody happy, the nerds, the fashion girls (those that say if you don't have an iPhone you suck)23:40
GeneralAntillesjavispedro: I hate TI sometimes.23:40
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GeneralAntillesieatlint: Imma disrupt your ecosystem.23:40
jacekowskijavispedro: ommm?23:40
jacekowskijavispedro: omap5?23:40
vi_yeah, the ti83 sucks balls23:40
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MohammadAGLOL javispedro23:40
ieatlintGeneralAntilles: that'll take a minimum of 3 beers23:40
ieatlintand you have to buy23:40
Sc0rpiusactually I'd have not chosen Wp7 if the company was mine, come on, Microsoft has less then 4% of the market share23:41
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Sc0rpiusthat's like going with the losers23:41
jacekowskiSc0rpius: well, i don't understand it23:41
javispedrojacekowski: seemingly :D23:41
jacekowskiSc0rpius: fashion girls have problems if they have same dress23:41
vi_fuck even my 10 year old hp49g calculator has more features the wp723:41
ieatlinti've heard that there is currently no way to open network sockets for 3rd party devs on wp723:41
jacekowskiSc0rpius: but if everybody has same phone that's cool23:41
Sc0rpiusyeah it's weird23:41
Sc0rpiusbut that's the way it is23:41
ieatlintwhich is just unacceptable23:41
Sc0rpiusI'd have gone with Maemo for this year, with nice and baeautiful GUI, multitouch, blah blah, and Meego for the next23:42
RST38hOk, NOK went up  little bit today, probably due to some people buying its shares cheap, waiting for them to rise23:42
ieatlintSc0rpius: harmattan was supposed to be the choice23:42
Sc0rpiusyeah and that would have been the smart choice23:42
jacekowskijavispedro: so how is it going to be with that dalvik23:42
ieatlintwhich is maemo, kinda23:42
jacekowskijavispedro: because you said something about OEM only23:42
ieatlintbut it wasn't ready23:42
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Sc0rpiusmaybe they thought Maemo was a failure because of the N90023:43
vi_i wish i had some extra £££ i woulda gazumpted some NOK shares23:43
ieatlintnokia employees said it wasn't ready23:43
MohammadAGjacekowski, I assure you, it's not related to the dress or the phones23:43
jattfacebook and twitter applications weren't ready23:43
Sc0rpiusbut it wasn't Maemo's fault, it was N900 fault. Powerful machine, but it was big and bulky with terrible battery life, fashion girls didn't want that23:43
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vi_lol facebook23:43
vi_facebook is gay23:43