IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-02-13

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vi_	lol	00:01
vi_	nokia trolled us	00:01
vi_	they played teh long game	00:01
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johnx	vi_, most expensive trolling effort evar	00:05
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vi_	worth it	00:05
vi_	totally worth it	00:05
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pupnik	http://www.mobilityminded.com/11803/htc-7-pro-available-o2 <<< that looks pretty good hardware-wise	00:11
johnx	pupnik, this is back to square one in terms of linux ports to phones though	00:12
johnx	don't you remember all the winCE 6 devices that took years to get linux running on? that were missing things like power management and modem support for years after the phone was out?	00:12
alterego	God this film is boring	00:13
DocScrutinizer	johnx: we got better on that :-)	00:13
alterego	I'm going to wait and see what Nokia do in regards to the next device.	00:13
pupnik	true enough johnx	00:14
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alterego	I would be happy with things continuing as they are.	00:14
johnx	DocScrutinizer, I'm not disagreeing, but I'm interested in why things are better nowadays? more talented hackers? more device drivers? more common hardware?	00:15
alterego	More open hardware specs, better collaboration, more interest.	00:16
alterego	The devices are more affordable so there is more interest I guess.	00:16
johnx	alterego, how much does android hurt or help this process?	00:16
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RST38h	moo johnx	00:17
alterego	Well, that depends on how it's used. It does promote the idea of OSS though	00:17
DocScrutinizer	actually that'd be the most reasonable option, or at least he most logical one: just cancel meego, assign the crew to maemo, and open up the sources proper, so community truly can contribute. Then ship a linux BSP (Board Support Package) for all future high end smartphones	00:17
alterego	Even if ISVs don't always open up completely.	00:17
alterego	Even if ISVs don't always open up completely.	00:17
RST38h	are we still morbid,or getting philosophicalnow? =(	00:17
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DocScrutinizer	about >> I would be happy with things continuing as they are.<< this is	00:17
RST38h	s/=(/=)	00:17
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johnx	RST38h, thinking about the future :)	00:18
RST38h	it is all in technicolor	00:18
alterego	Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to seeing a polished MeeGo handset from Nokia ...	00:18
johnx	DocScrutinizer, I'm mostly doubtful of how well maemo 5 can be maintained long term as a distribution	00:18
DocScrutinizer	johnx: a bit of all	00:18
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alterego	johnx: I was thinking of something more up-to-date, with meego binary blobs and community produced user space apps.	00:19
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alterego	At least until we have a full MeeGo system.	00:19
RST38h	johnx: here is one possible future:	00:20
alterego	With more refined Ux	00:20
johnx	alterego, I'm all for that	00:20
RST38h	johnx: http://www.oss.kr/?module=file&act=procFileDownload&file_srl=1609&sid=96028cc2f	00:20
johnx	RST38h, a login page?	00:20
RST38h	alterego: We had a full Mer system, was it of any use?	00:20
DocScrutinizer	johnx: and of course andidiot helps a friggin lot when it comes to anti-vendor ports	00:20
johnx	the future is web login pages! You've seen it here first!	00:20
RST38h	ah wait	00:20
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RST38h	http://www.oss.kr/?module=file&act=procFileDownload&file_srl=1609&sid=96028cc2f522ec804ec973e9b92d5bd9	00:21
RST38h	here, feed	00:21
johnx	DocScrutinizer, in terms of already having u-boot installed and some basic idea of memory addresses and such super low level stuff?	00:21
johnx	RST38h, still a login page :)	00:22
DocScrutinizer	well, all kinds of driver stuff	00:22
RST38h	no	00:22
johnx	nm, it's pushing a PDF at me as well	00:22
RST38h	read it	00:22
DocScrutinizer	johnx: SHR more than once took android drivers and alienated them to work in linux	00:23
DocScrutinizer	and of course with hackers like Harald Welte things become possible you never thought might ever be	00:23
johnx	DocScrutinizer, I imagine a lot of the hardest work is actually figuring out the right obscure memory ranges to poke in order to make the device do something. In that sense, the Android drivers are probably a very useful resource	00:24
SpeedEvil	I love the line from one of his presentationns.	00:24
SpeedEvil	'There is no open-source mobile phone stack'	00:24
DocScrutinizer	johnx: yup	00:24
SpeedEvil	'So, I took 3 months off, and wrote one'.	00:24
johnx	RST38h, raster's project :) Sooo, people are making sure that meego and LiMo don't end stupidly source incompatible, right?	00:25
DocScrutinizer	though Harald disassembled the WinMo6 kbd driver of Eten M800 and wrote a linux driver, during a flight from Germany to Taipei	00:25
RST38h	johnx: Dunno. Do you still bet on Meego?	00:25
Corsac	RST38h: hu, what's that? another OS from samsung?	00:25
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johnx	RST38h, tenatively: yes. A lot of the manufacturers involved in LiMo don't have great linux track records	00:26
RST38h	johnx: the presentation looks like a good start, and one manufacturer the size of Samsung is enough	00:26
johnx	also, I'm still doubtful whether any of those phones will show up in the US or EU	00:26
johnx	remember the motorola linux phones?	00:26
RST38h	we will see	00:27
Corsac	there's a lot of blue boxes in the diagram though :)	00:27
alterego	I'd also love to get my hands on an N9 proto :D	00:27
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MohammadAG	who wouldn't	00:28
MohammadAG	is there a documented way to set a ringtone?	00:28
alterego	You mean programatically?	00:29
MohammadAG	yes	00:29
johnx	RST38h, keyword there is MWC. hey, coincidentally, guess what engadget is covering right now? ;)	00:29
MohammadAG	need to add the "Set as ringing tone" context menu thingy	00:29
alterego	Hrm, not sure, I think you just create a wav and stick it in the appropriate location.	00:30
RST38h	...Such is the word from TechCrunch's well placed sources, who also say that Nokia dedicated only a three-man external team to the development of UI customizations for MeeGo....	00:30
RST38h	johnx: dunno it is 1:30 am	00:31
MohammadAG	before we get rid of Elop, can we get rid of abill_uk? :P	00:31
alterego	Interesting, well, that explains why the OS development is "slow" :D	00:31
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alterego	Hahah	00:31
RST38h	MOhammad: Much easier to do, just find his mom's phone number, call her, and tell her he is spending time on the Net watching other children photos, nude	00:32
johnx	RST38h, it's running over the next several days. Guess we'll see whether the 'SLP' phone has the right frequency support very soon ;)	00:32
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RST38h	johnx:I hope so	00:33
alterego	I'm so annoyed Nokia scrapped Qt, it's almost unbelievable ..	00:33
alterego	Burning fucking platform my ass ...	00:33
RST38h	alterego: If you are annoyed, imagine what those trolls are feeling	00:33
alterego	I say we stick Elop on a _real_ burning platform and see what he does.	00:34
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johnx	alterego, I really hope they do the right thing and spin-off or sell trolltech	00:34
pupnik	cool, X11 supports multiple pointers	00:34
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kevloral	Hello all	00:34
GAN900	alterego, I'm in.	00:34
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SpeedEvil	I have an old windows 3.1 manual I can contribute to a pyre.	00:34
GAN900	Hear he's the 7th largest MSFT stock holder?	00:35
GAN900	(individual)	00:35
pupnik	really	00:35
alterego	GAN900: heard the same.	00:35
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pupnik	...	00:35
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alterego	GAN900: it's so blatantly dodgy profiteering ..	00:35
GAN900	Yeah	00:35
MohammadAG	alterego, Qt will live	00:35
RST38h	alterego: "Will he sink? Will he burn? The beast will have his feast tonight!"	00:36
MohammadAG	not on Windows Phone 7, but it's still alive	00:36
MohammadAG	or they might port Qt... /me holds breath, dies	00:36
alterego	MohammadAG: I know, but I'd rather be able to actually use it on phones :P	00:36
kevloral	GAN900: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ir?s=MSFT+Insider+Roster	00:36
MohammadAG	alterego, then get the N9 ;P	00:36
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MohammadAG	should be announced tomorrow right?	00:37
alterego	pfft	00:38
alterego	When is MWC?	00:38
johnx	like now	00:38
johnx	engadget is there :)	00:38
vi_	so we get n9 tomorrow?	00:39
RST38h	we get even more insanity tomorrow	00:39
johnx	vi_, yeah. just stop by MWC and steal the prototype	00:39
vi_	does gthat mean i get my n900 meego upgrade now?	00:39
johnx	vi_, sure. grab a meego daily testing image	00:39
johnx	RST38h, "May you live in interesting times."	00:40
MohammadAG	would be lulz if Nokia's Windows Phone 7 edits got renamed to Maemo 7	00:40
RST38h	johnx: Yes, Kali Yuga seems to be on, the last few years	00:40
MohammadAG	LOL @ post that Maemo is 95% open source	00:40
vi_	so why is n900 stuck with .28 kernel?	00:41
MohammadAG	~openness	00:41
apt	hmm... openness is http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-openness-of-maemo-50-pr11-and.html	00:41
* rm_you waves at johnx		00:41
MohammadAG	vi_, it's on 2.6.37 with MeeGo	00:41
johnx	vi_, .37 from meego.com, but I'm not sure it'll work with the maemo 5 userland	00:41
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johnx	hallo rm_you :D	00:41
vi_	oh god, that is a wet dream	00:41
rm_you	so what's going on in maemo / meego / nokia land?	00:41
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rm_you	first free weekend in a while	00:42
johnx	rm_you, uhm, RTFNews	00:42
rm_you	need to catch up :P	00:42
rm_you	yeah i saw the microsoft partnership thing	00:42
vi_	holy shit	00:42
vi_	you are jokimg right?	00:42
RST38h	rm_you: clusterfuck	00:42
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MohammadAG	vi_, no	00:42
RST38h	rm_you: You will find details on engadget	00:43
rm_you	heh yeah	00:43
MohammadAG	meego-handset-armv7l-n900-1.1.90.2.20110208.4-vmlinuz-2.6.37-6.1-adaptation-n900	00:43
MohammadAG	vmlinuz-2.6.37-6.1-adaptation-n900	00:43
rm_you	been hearing weird things, i always just come here to get it boiled down and with all of the BS and unfounded speculation stripped out	00:43
MohammadAG	2.6.37-6, in case you missed it	00:43
vi_	whooa, whats that mo?	00:43
johnx	rm_you, not a smart move these days. lot's of speculation floating around. even from me :\|	00:43
MohammadAG	vi_, meego kernel as of 8 February	00:44
vi_	is meego useable?	00:44
MohammadAG	http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.1.90/1.1.90.2.20110208.4/handset/images/meego-handset-armv7l-n900/	00:44
MohammadAG	for developers	00:45
MohammadAG	(with a second N900)	00:45
johnx	sooo, Nokia's going to release a meego phone this year. Mobile World Conference is on now where we're expecting MeeGo phone news from Nokia and a different Linux phone from Samsung	00:45
rm_you	hrmrm	00:45
alterego	MohammadAG: did you see my comments earlier about a more up-to-date maemo with meego closed binaries?	00:45
MohammadAG	alterego, nope	00:45
johnx	rm_you, after they release the meego phone they're going cut their meego involvement down to R&D mode, for the possible far future	00:45
MohammadAG	2.6.37 with MeeGo bme?	00:45
alterego	Basically, yes.	00:46
MohammadAG	and MeeGo mce	00:46
alterego	I was thinking we could do it for the cssu	00:46
alterego	A _proper_ cssu :)	00:46
MohammadAG	I suggested that months ago, though I think no one noticed it :P	00:46
johnx	rm_you, Intel says they're still committed to meego dev. that's everything we know boiled down. Now, there's tons of speculation and plans for the future	00:46
MohammadAG	the CSSU is proper alterego :)	00:46
alterego	Well, I think I mentioned it about 8 months ago too :P	00:47
MohammadAG	in fact, I'm replacing osso-notificationlightscp in the next CSSU update	00:47
rm_you	yeah, i imagine	00:47
MohammadAG	with a FOSS clone	00:47
MohammadAG	osso-applet-notificationlight*	00:47
alterego	Well, we need a complete FOSS user space.	00:47
pupnik	this will have gross repurcussions worldwide	00:47
MohammadAG	alterego, that's why I suggested rewriting parts bit by bit	00:48
pupnik	will TI be as eager to open-source their stuff now?	00:48
MohammadAG	the mediaplayer was a start	00:48
alterego	pupnik: they've been eager? :P	00:48
MohammadAG	I suggest rewriting the control panel applets, those should be easy, then we can fire up portrait mode in the control panel	00:48
GAN900	johnx, device, not "phone"	00:48
alterego	MohammadAG: I think maybe dialer should be next.	00:48
MohammadAG	Fix some Qt bugs, fix hildon-desktop, add portrait support	00:48
johnx	GAN900, isn't that what the TSA calls a bomb?	00:49
jacekowski	and then what	00:49
MohammadAG	indeed, though DocScrutinizer says it's not feasible	00:49
jacekowski	if we won't have phone to use it	00:49
MohammadAG	the N900's still there jacekowski	00:49
MohammadAG	I imagine it'll be there for quite some time	00:49
jacekowski	n900 is already obsolete	00:49
GAN900	johnx, I get the impression it could be a tablet.	00:49
RST38h	johnx: No, it is what DoE calls a bomb	00:49
MohammadAG	the N900 was obsolete from day 1	00:49
rm_you	GAN900 / johnx: yeah, had to be careful not to say "my device" on international flights with n8x0 :P	00:49
GAN900	johnx, I don't think the timeline for the budget is that clear, either.	00:49
kennae	is there an easy way to lock display brightness to custom level and disable the light sensor?	00:50
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: I never said it's not feasible	00:50
alterego	jacekowski: to you maybe, but I'm still happy to use it .. And develop for it ...	00:50
MohammadAG	then you said it's hard to do :p	00:50
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: I said it's friggin impossible to make sure it's feature-complete	00:50
jacekowski	alterego: how does it feel to develop on dead platform?	00:50
RST38h	rm_you: You could have just called it "my junk", fits n8x0 perfectly well =)	00:50
rm_you	lol	00:50
alterego	jacekowski: quite good thanks ..	00:50
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: a braindead dialer can be written in 10 minutes	00:51
rm_you	at the time i loved the thing :P	00:51
MohammadAG	jacekowski, like it felt 12 months ago :P	00:51
johnx	jacekowski, to develop on a dead platform things that can be used on future hardware? not too bad	00:51
RST38h	rm_you: rrrrriiiight!!!!	00:51
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, it can always be feature-complete	00:51
alterego	jacekowski: it'll be dead to me when I stop using it, I couldn't give a crap about you continual negativity :P	00:51
MohammadAG	though Maemo 7 might be out the time that happens	00:51
jacekowski	johnx: if there will be future hardware	00:51
jacekowski	alterego: it's reality	00:51
jacekowski	alterego: you are overly optimistic	00:51
johnx	jacekowski, uhm. Are you predicting an end to smartphones?	00:51
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: It can't - unless you decompile and RE every single byte of original	00:52
alterego	jacekowski: it's your reality ...	00:52
joga	jacekowski, the phone suddenly dies?	00:52
alterego	jacekowski: to me the platform is still unsurpassed.	00:52
johnx	alterego, in fact, it's so hot, it's on fire :D	00:52
joga	I'm still very happy with it, I don't dev for it but at least it's easy to hack if I want to	00:52
alterego	Hell, I still write the occasional app for my Acorn Risc PC ...	00:52
pupnik	to me also	00:52
* RST38h sighs and goes to sleep. The idiot box gods were merciful tonight and showed Imaginarium of Dr Parnassus		00:52
alterego	g'night RST38h	00:52
pupnik	and there's more fun stuff available for n900 now than ever	00:53
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: nevertheless a Cdialer would be a really worthy project	00:53
johnx	RST38h, 'night	00:53
jacekowski	well, telepathy is still there	00:53
MohammadAG	I'm happy with the mediaplayer rewrite	00:53
MohammadAG	progressed a lot today :)	00:53
jacekowski	and you can use telepathy as a backend	00:53
jacekowski	or something	00:53
DocScrutinizer	and feature completeness against the original isn't the benchmark, our specs and what we need it to do are	00:53
alterego	I think we should bring in ofono	00:53
kennae	cant wait to see your new mediaplayer	00:53
pupnik	congrats MohammadAG	00:53
MohammadAG	you can see it now	00:54
MohammadAG	http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/mediaplayer	00:54
jacekowski	MohammadAG: feature request - single click on/off fmtxd button on now playing screen	00:54
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MohammadAG	keep in mind, development was stalled for a month	00:54
MohammadAG	jacekowski, hmm	00:54
alterego	jacekowski: why should he do something for a dead platform?	00:55
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: see, Nokia MUST (rfc2119) provide e.g 911 dialing even without SIM. If I know and accept a Community-dialer doesn't support that, so what? Nobody can sue me for using a dialer that doesn't support 911	00:55
alterego	jacekowski: if you're so against developing for a "dead platform" why the f* are you asking for features?	00:55
MohammadAG	err, WHAT?	00:55
MohammadAG	the stock dialer doesn't call 911 without a sim?	00:56
jacekowski	i'm not against	00:56
jacekowski	i'm just asking how do you feel about it	00:56
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: no	00:56
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: you got it wrong	00:56
MohammadAG	ah k	00:56
MohammadAG	got it	00:56
jonwil	Making a bit of progress on Cell Broadcast but seem to have hit some snags	00:56
MohammadAG	Nokia has to provide the functionality, we don't	00:56
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nox-	heh emergency calls w/o a sim were dropped in germany some time ago...	00:56
SpeedEvil	In the UK, that doesn't work either.	00:57
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jonwil	Is anyone around who knows their carrier is sending cell broadcast messages?	00:59
johnx	jonwil, how can I test? or look that up?	01:00
jonwil	I have no idea	01:00
jonwil	Or is there someone who knows how to dump data from lower down in the stack (i.e. capturing stuff going between the telephony stack and the modem)?	01:00
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: I'd test - ut tmo in the UK doesn't as I understand it, sorry.	01:01
SpeedEvil	n	01:01
SpeedEvil	b	01:01
MohammadAG	alterego, just wondering, are you still doing the video playback window? Cause video listing is now working	01:02
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jonwil	btw, whats this about emergency calls? Is someone working on an alternative phone dialer?	01:03
kennae	nice work with the mediaplayer everyone	01:04
kennae	I thought I wont get any new updates/software for my phone but you proved me wrong with the SSU :)	01:04
* MohammadAG needs to figure out how to tie QML code with Qt code		01:04
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alterego	MohammadAG: yeah, I'm still up for it.	01:05
alterego	I'll look at it Monday	01:05
MohammadAG	http://i52.tinypic.com/30trrkn.jpg looks sexy, doesn't it?	01:06
alterego	very nice :)	01:07
jacekowski	i see nice mirror effect	01:07
jacekowski	and other eyecandy stuff	01:07
jacekowski	but, does it work?	01:07
MohammadAG	yes, not for playlists yet though	01:08
MohammadAG	try it	01:08
MohammadAG	again, http://mohammadag.xceleo.org/mediaplayer	01:09
MohammadAG	just wget, chmod +x, and run it	01:09
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vi_	where is the donate to mohammedg button?	01:10
MohammadAG	/dev/null at the moment :P	01:10
kerio	put it right next to the "pause" button	01:10
kennae	vi_: asked the same thing few hours ago :)	01:11
DocScrutinizer	meh, SLP has waaay too much blue, on page4	01:11
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MohammadAG	lol	01:11
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: moin	01:11
javispedro	moo	01:12
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: do you like blue?	01:12
vi_	when you say meego is only suitable for devs what do you mean?	01:12
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: no?	01:12
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DocScrutinizer	like there -> http://www.oss.kr/?module=file&act=procFileDownload&file_srl=1609&sid=96028cc2f522ec804ec973e9b92d5bd9 p4	01:12
MohammadAG	it's not usable on a day to day basis	01:12
MohammadAG	or hour to hour basis tbh	01:12
johnx	vi_, it's not finished and can't be used as a day-to-day OS yet, but if you're interested in hacking on it, it does run	01:13
MohammadAG	there's no phone daemon, so you can't accept calls unless you have the phone up started for example	01:13
rm_you	lolol	01:13
MohammadAG	app*	01:13
vi_	bleh, nvm then	01:13
* MohammadAG tries to persuade javispedro to join the maemo foss efforts		01:14
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DocScrutinizer	PM is crap, or simply not existent yet, afaik	01:14
johnx	vi_, yeah. thanks for the kind words and encouragement	01:14
DocScrutinizer	PowerManagement	01:14
johnx	it does get rather warmish ...	01:14
MohammadAG	non existent yet	01:14
Loveable_rouge	yo all , any 1 help i seem to hae lost my email subscription	01:14
MohammadAG	locking the screen would be a great addition	01:14
vi_	very interested in a meego/maemo hybrid though	01:14
MohammadAG	I tried to listen to something and make a basic daemon today	01:15
MohammadAG	something = dbus/sysfs/etc	01:15
MohammadAG	couldn't find anything about the lock switch	01:15
DocScrutinizer	hehehe	01:15
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DocScrutinizer	check friggin sensorfw	01:15
Loveable_rouge	yo all , any 1 help i seem to have lost my email subscriptions , even thou it says im subscribed !	01:15
MohammadAG	shouldn't that say something on dbus?	01:15
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johnx	Loveable_rouge, we saw the message the first time.	01:16
MohammadAG	alterego, any ideas how to add a glow effect?	01:16
DocScrutinizer	if it actually monitors the switch then yes	01:16
MohammadAG	then it doesn't monitor the switch	01:16
Loveable_rouge	first was wrong !!	01:16
MohammadAG	or isn't running :P	01:16
vi_	loveable wtf are you talking about?	01:16
DocScrutinizer	but maybe you just need to check all keycodes in inputX	01:16
Loveable_rouge	@vi_ maemotalk forums email subscriptions	01:17
vi_	yeah, its totaly broken for me too	01:18
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Loveable_rouge	any ideas why ?	01:19
DocScrutinizer	what's broken?	01:20
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Jartza	I tried nitdroid but it seems like a dead project	01:22
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pupnik	lg optimus 2x looks like nice hardware	01:23
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: actually lockswitch isn't related to kbd, so it's questionable if it shows up at all in /dev/inputN. Actually it's linked to a GPIO (watch syslog ;-D ) and I guess there needs to be some driver to provide the proper /sys node so you can check the state, wait for kevents, etc	01:25
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DocScrutinizer	wait 30s, I'll get the right sysnode for you	01:25
DocScrutinizer	(in maemo, but...)	01:25
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DocScrutinizer	$(cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/kb_lock/state) == open	01:27
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: $(cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/kb_lock/state) == closed ---> locksw engaged	01:27
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: I don't think this is a module.ko, so support has to be compiled into kernel. /sys path might have changed, but checking a bit in /sys should probably reveal something, or you need to fix the kernel buildtime config	01:37
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, I looked in all state files	01:39
MohammadAG	it wasn't there	01:40
DocScrutinizer	hmm	01:40
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MohammadAG	dmesg doesn't show changes	01:40
MohammadAG	I checked all those, I know it's gpio :P	01:40
DocScrutinizer	can you patebin a find /sys -name state	01:40
MohammadAG	well, I'm not on MeeGo now	01:41
MohammadAG	%2520 <-- is this a space?	01:41
DocScrutinizer	meh, I guess they thoroughly screwed the kernel config	01:41
MohammadAG	oh	01:41
MohammadAG	found scrollback	01:41
MohammadAG	sec	01:41
chx	yes 2520 is a doubel encoded spacde	01:42
MohammadAG	http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=4h0VbbsA	01:42
MohammadAG	cool, thanks	01:42
DocScrutinizer	ummm not a single switch	01:42
DocScrutinizer	nor proxysensor, anything	01:43
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MohammadAG	proximity is there	01:43
MohammadAG	I noticed changes from enabled to disabled when I covered it	01:44
DocScrutinizer	where?	01:44
DocScrutinizer	not in your pastebin	01:44
MohammadAG	I know	01:45
MohammadAG	I had a while true; do cat allthose; done	01:45
DocScrutinizer	odds are the path changed massively	01:45
MohammadAG	I think it's either	01:45
MohammadAG	one of these	01:45
MohammadAG	/sys/devices/platform/i2c_omap.1/i2c-1/1-004b/twl_reg.12/regulator/regulator.11/state	01:45
MohammadAG	/sys/devices/platform/i2c_omap.1/i2c-1/1-004b/twl_reg.13/regulator/regulator.12/state	01:45
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DocScrutinizer	meh	01:46
DocScrutinizer	for sure not	01:46
DocScrutinizer	might be backlight regulator or whatever	01:46
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DocScrutinizer	or meego kernel is so extremely messed up... :-S	01:47
DocScrutinizer	twl_reg.NN isn't GPIO, it's GAYA	01:48
DocScrutinizer	one (2) of the voltage regulators therein	01:48
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DocScrutinizer	seems meego kernel really is weird	01:51
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alterego	nice looking ... http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/exclusive-nokias-windows-phone-7-concept-revealed/	01:54
alterego	Doesn't look like it has karl zeiss ..	01:54
* SpeedEvil doesn't give a shit.		01:54
* SpeedEvil wants a reasonable diameter lens.		01:54
DocScrutinizer	find /sys -name 'regulator'	01:55
DocScrutinizer	/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-1/1-004b/twl4030_reg.3/regulator:regulator.0	01:55
DocScrutinizer	/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-1/1-004b/twl4030_reg.17/regulator:regulator.1	01:55
DocScrutinizer	/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-1/1-004b/twl4030_reg.18/regulator:regulator.2	01:55
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DocScrutinizer	/sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-1/1-004b/twl4030_reg.19/regulator:regulator.3	01:55
DocScrutinizer	^^^that's maemo kernel	01:55
DocScrutinizer	no 12 regulators, at weird addr on i2c_omap.1/i2c-1/	01:56
DocScrutinizer	that looks outright wrong	01:56
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DocScrutinizer	might this be a config for some beagleboard or whatever?	01:57
DocScrutinizer	meh, now ^^^ that's the answer to vi__'	01:58
DocScrutinizer	s question	01:58
DocScrutinizer	meego, almost there. Next week we'd ship version 1.1¡	01:59
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blackthorne	meego isn't dead?	02:03
blackthorne	i've heard that partnership with Microsoft for the high range smart phones	02:03
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DocScrutinizer	meego is a pile of sourcecode, it can't die. The question is who's keeping up the support and development for it, for which platform, on which level	02:07
Sc0rpius	and who will care	02:07
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DocScrutinizer	Intel will, of course	02:07
Sc0rpius	if there are no devices for it, nobody will care.	02:07
DocScrutinizer	not for handset UX though	02:07
Sc0rpius	then for netbooks?	02:07
DocScrutinizer	there's no such thing like a device for an OS. There's OS support for devices, and that's the question, as mentioned above	02:08
Sc0rpius	we'll see	02:09
Sc0rpius	to me it's dead right now.	02:09
Sc0rpius	who will develop applications to an OS that is not sold in any device?	02:09
Sc0rpius	nobody will.	02:10
DocScrutinizer	that's a much better way to put it	02:10
DocScrutinizer	and yes, I agree on that	02:10
Ken-Young	If there's a decent meego phone released, I'll at least port some code for it.	02:12
blackthorne	DocScrutinizer: even though, I think Sc0rpius was trying to figure out for what devices does MeeGo will offer support for, putting the things the way you want it	02:13
blackthorne	netbooks? tablets?	02:14
DocScrutinizer	obviously not for handset UX	02:14
DocScrutinizer	Intel is in tablet business aiui, then I heard some car manufacturer is planning to use meego for entertainment (dummy up the childs on backseat)	02:15
blackthorne	the stock owners, mostly non technical guys seem to be right this time when punishing Nokia for lack of focus	02:15
Ken-Young	Does the fact that Microsoft is not pushing WP7 for tablets, combined with the mothballing of meego, mean that Nokia has no tablet ambitions at all anymore?	02:16
blackthorne	Ken-Young: Microsoft has software for tables	02:16
blackthorne	tablets	02:16
Ken-Young	blackthorne, But not WP7-based, as I understand it.	02:16
blackthorne	actually they started long time ago, before Apple	02:16
blackthorne	Ken-Young: it's enough to take out room for Nokia	02:17
DocScrutinizer	Elop said they'll ship a meego device in 2011. I suspect that'll be a tablet	02:17
Ken-Young	blackthorne, Aren't they pushing a derivative of regular Windoze for their tablets, though?	02:17
blackthorne	Ken-Young: yes, that's why I don't see nothing good out of it for Nokia	02:17
blackthorne	Nokia bet a lot with Qt, what are they going to do with it?	02:18
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Pavlov_	i doubt they do anything with Qt	02:18
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Ken-Young	DocScrutinizer, That would make sense, but since it just an experimental device for them, it still would mean Nokia has not real tablet ambitions.	02:18
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timeless	anyone here familiar w/ facebrick	02:18
blackthorne	too much for experimental stuff... first it was Maemo, now MeeGo is just an experiment too?	02:18
ieatlint	there's a decent possibility that qt will be released under a bsd licence	02:19
blackthorne	ieatlint: currently it's LGPL, right?	02:19
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Ken-Young	blackthorne, Beware of manufactures that release "developers' sneak peak" devices.	02:19
ieatlint	i don't have the details of the actual sale of qt to nokia, but http://www.kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqt_announcement.php implies that they left an option for the kde foundation to release qt under a bsd licence	02:20
alterego	blackthorne: it's not an experiment. It is a real project, a project now that Nokia will only be using for innovations and r&d.	02:20
ieatlint	blackthorne: yes, it's LGPL and GPL for free i think	02:20
blackthorne	ieatlint: but that was Trolltech property. KDE had anything to say about it?	02:20
alterego	blackthorne: the platform is still under development and still has a good chance to be the future.	02:20
ieatlint	alterego: you're kidding yourself... nokia is sidelining meego and cutting its budget massively	02:20
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ieatlint	blackthorne: dunno, that kde page certainly implies they do	02:21
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alterego	ieatlint: so? The project isn't run by Nokia ffs.	02:21
timeless	ieatlint: who announced budget cuts for whatever?	02:21
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alterego	timeless: ++	02:21
ieatlint	uh, let me get the slide	02:21
blackthorne	I've read that Symbian is still going to be used! So it's WM7, Symbian, MeeGo for Nokia? 2 of them have to go	02:21
ieatlint	and when one of the two major partners of meego drops out, it takes a platform that would struggle for acceptance and subjigates it even more	02:22
_trine	what I want to know is,, is the channel name going to change to microgo	02:22
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timeless	blackthorne: you missed s40	02:22
alterego	ieatlint: hasn't happened yet, and people have been saying that will happen after the first meego device is released.	02:22
SpeedEvil	Meego is producing one more device withnokia.	02:22
blackthorne	talking about the smart phones	02:22
SpeedEvil	They've committed to.	02:22
timeless	SpeedEvil: no, we're producing one device	02:22
ieatlint	SpeedEvil: they committed to meego as their major platform too	02:22
timeless	we (MeeGo) have produced zero devices to date	02:22
SpeedEvil	timeless: Err - yes	02:23
timeless	our previous incarnation (Maemo) produced one phone :)	02:23
ieatlint	the n9 is cancelled, nokia has decided meego will not be a major platform for them... they did say they would produce a device, but i wouldn't count on it	02:23
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SpeedEvil	They also said it'd be a phone.	02:23
SpeedEvil	That may have been a mis-statement in passing though.	02:23
pupnik	can companies sell phone kits without fcc/ce certification?	02:23
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Ken-Young	SpeedEvil, Is that official?	02:23
timeless	pupnik: in India or China perhaps?	02:23
SpeedEvil	Ken-Young: It was announced at ~12:31 on the stream from nokia.com/news/	02:23
ShadowJK	CE is self-certified ;p	02:24
SpeedEvil	Ken-Young: I wasn't however recording it.	02:24
SpeedEvil	CE can be self-certified - if you're sure of yourself.	02:24
Ken-Young	SpeedEvil, Well, that's a bit of good news, at least.	02:24
ieatlint	SpeedEvil: the statements i saw just said a 'meego device'	02:24
MohammadAG	album view working in open source media player	02:24
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SpeedEvil	ieatlint: It wasn't in any of the statements I saw - it was during the QA	02:24
timeless	http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1488004	02:24
ShadowJK	when they said meego device I assumed slapping Nokia sticker on Lenovo Ideapad and doubling the price ;p	02:24
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timeless	> Nokia still plans to ship a MeeGo-related product later this year.	02:25
ieatlint	yeah, what i read said just 'device'	02:25
pupnik	i don't see the use for netbook Os's	02:25
timeless	'MeeGo-related product'	02:25
Pavlov_	meego stickers	02:25
timeless	all of those words are key	02:25
SpeedEvil	It's a source CD.	02:25
Pavlov_	maybe they will produce stuffed meego animals	02:25
alterego	Meh, anything Elop says is balls ..	02:26
timeless	pavlov: with a usb port? :)	02:26
Pavlov_	nah	02:26
Pavlov_	meego branded boots?	02:26
timeless	tyres!	02:26
* SpeedEvil realises!		02:26
Ken-Young	Meego branded pink slips, for their programmers.	02:26
alterego	I just want a freakin' t-shirt!	02:26
timeless	i'm pretty sure i have a meego tshirt	02:26
SpeedEvil	They've said they have the freedom to brand windows phone 7 as they like.	02:26
timeless	i have no idea where it is	02:27
* rm_you waves at timeless		02:27
timeless	hi	02:27
SpeedEvil	This means that the meego device will actually be a theme for windows phone.	02:27
rm_you	crazy times, eh :P	02:27
timeless	so, i tried Facebrick	02:27
timeless	it doesn't work	02:27
rm_you	lol	02:27
ieatlint	anyway, no one should count on a nokia meego device ever hitting a retail store... it may happen, they've said it'll happen, but based on their statements, it wouldn't make financial sense to do so	02:27
timeless	and i can't get the native facebook client to work either	02:27
timeless	ieatlint: the 770..n810 didn't make financial sense	02:28
rm_you	i had some issues once with a weird version of the account integration library, had to apt-get upgrade manually to get it fixed	02:28
timeless	that didn't stop us from shipping them	02:28
timeless	the n810 wimax edition didn't either	02:28
ieatlint	timeless: yeah, and they hired a new ceo to turn around their falling profits and eliminate things that didn't make sense	02:28
Ken-Young	I'm surprised facebrick became abandonware. THe developer seemed so enthusiastic, initially.	02:28
timeless	we even shipped that	02:28
_trine	This could be more than the end of meego it could be the beginning of the end of Nokia	02:28
ieatlint	looks like he's doing just that	02:28
alterego	I dunno, this community has a lot of talent. They'd be very stupid to miss the opportunity.	02:28
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timeless	Ken-Young: oh, it's abandon-ware? shame	02:28
alterego	But clearly they are stupid ...	02:28
Ken-Young	timeless, I think so.	02:28
timeless	internetishard: please don't irc as root@	02:28
internetishard	what can I do ahead of time to this android app I'm building to hasten portability to the nokia?	02:28
dotblank	SpeedEvil, what?	02:29
internetishard	timeless, I will if I want, sorry it bothers you.	02:29
Pavlov_	build it on the web	02:29
dotblank	SpeedEvil, so pretend the wp7 isn't actually wp7 but instead meego	02:29
MohammadAG	<timeless> so, i tried Facebrick	02:29
timeless	MohammadAG: yeah...	02:29
MohammadAG	<timeless> it doesn't work	02:29
timeless	MohammadAG: yeah...	02:29
MohammadAG	facebook fucked up their API, libqfacebook was broken	02:29
MohammadAG	and it was broken more than once, so I guess the dev got fed up	02:30
timeless	MohammadAG: does that explain why the native client doesn't work?	02:30
timeless	facebrick gives an error parsing a feed	02:30
MohammadAG	what native client?	02:30
timeless	i have a VoIP account option for Facebook	02:30
MohammadAG	you mean Chat?	02:30
timeless	is that not native?	02:30
timeless	i guess?	02:31
MohammadAG	if you're talking about chat, I just signed in	02:31
MohammadAG	seems to be working fine	02:31
rm_you	yes, there is a base facebook client that shipped with the device	02:31
rm_you	i havent tried it in a while	02:31
rm_you	let me check	02:31
MohammadAG	that's just jabber with an icon on top	02:32
ieatlint	alterego: bleh, finally found it.. http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/rip-symbian/	02:32
MohammadAG	it was added when facebook exported their chat servers via jabber	02:32
ieatlint	that page has a slide that visualises their future meego r&d spending	02:32
rm_you	no, there's another one, that has a home widget	02:32
ieatlint	it's not numbers, but it's a very obvious clue as to what their plans are	02:32
DocScrutinizer	timeless: wait wait	02:32
MohammadAG	that works too rm_you	02:32
DocScrutinizer	timeless: you're saying meego devision of Nokia is planning to build a device with Nokia, right?	02:33
ieatlint	and you can see the green "meego" block turn into a green too-small-for-text sliver	02:33
timeless	DocScrutinizer: 'with nokia'?	02:33
DocScrutinizer	well, meego has no reflow street	02:34
DocScrutinizer	so I guess it's like with OM and FIC, one subdivision is ordering hw from another subdivision	02:34
DocScrutinizer	anyway, key point of my question has been "YOU (meego division of Nokia) are building a device"?	02:36
timeless	om? fic?	02:36
DocScrutinizer	nevermind that	02:36
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ieatlint	http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/02/12/intel-kept-in-the-dark-over-nokia%E2%80%99s-meego-plans-operators-reject-first-device/ also suggests that a meego phone by nokia could be announced at MWC just the same, and has a couple rumours about it	02:36
timeless	well, that's what the press release said	02:36
timeless	i have to trust it	02:36
DocScrutinizer	yeah, but press release didn't mention WHO is building the meego-related product	02:36
ieatlint	intel made that same mistake ;p	02:36
internetishard	what can I do ahead of time to this android app I'm building to hasten portability to the nokia?	02:37
timeless	hrm, it didn't...	02:37
* timeless looks for evidence that MeeGo computers will build the meego-related product		02:37
DocScrutinizer	who inside the many subdivisions of Nokia...	02:37
timeless	http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TseMbC8cpasJ:www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Technology/pdf/Nokia_software_strategy_white_paper.pdf+site:www.nokia.com+meego+device&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com is amusing	02:38
DocScrutinizer	timeless: that'S what I'm asking. If it were meego branded rubber boots, then probably it weren't meego computers division to build it	02:38
timeless	fair enough	02:38
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timeless	afaik we don't have a rubber boots division	02:38
timeless	and i believe there's a legal agreement that says tires are to be built by nokian instead of nokia	02:39
DocScrutinizer	you know I'm not talking hard facts here :-)	02:39
timeless	http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/corporate-governance/group-executive-board/alberto-torres - DocScrutinizer Oops. Lost? Don't worry, it's not serious, but it looks like the page you've requested isn't available.	02:39
DocScrutinizer	but aiui the Nokia MeeGo subdivision is very phone-centric	02:39
timeless	...	02:40
timeless	DocScrutinizer: we're very one product centric ;-)	02:40
timeless	ok, this nokia searching stuff is hard	02:40
timeless	i can't find proof that our one product is the one nokia plans to ship	02:41
DocScrutinizer	and was your focus changing massively regarding type of your product to build, recently?	02:41
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timeless	no	02:42
DocScrutinizer	ok, thanks. :-D	02:42
ieatlint	yeah, i know nokia employees didn't get any real advanced warning	02:42
timeless	sure we did, our family told us to read articles in the NYT!	02:42
timeless	or WSJ! or WPost!	02:42
ieatlint	haha	02:42
ieatlint	yeah :9	02:42
ieatlint	:(	02:42
timeless	plus, we got a twitter alert about two turkeys and an eagle!	02:43
timeless	although, i doubt most of us had twitter alerts for turkeys or eagles...	02:43
ieatlint	i wish everyone at nokia luck over the next few weeks when the pink slips start going out :(	02:43
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DocScrutinizer	pink slips ? o.O	02:45
rm_you	(termination notices)	02:45
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ieatlint	heh, yeah, guess it's an americanism... it's based off notion that layoff notices are on pink slips of paper	02:46
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Ken-Young	Like "green cards".	02:47
DocScrutinizer	like green mankini	02:47
budfive	Ken-Young: green cards are actually pink	02:48
ieatlint	haha, yeah.. not actually green	02:48
ieatlint	and layoff notices aren't actually pink (typically, anyway)	02:48
DocScrutinizer	and borat really looks awesome in a green mankini	02:48
ieatlint	we also call the title/certificate of ownership for a vehicle a "pink slip", oddly (also not typically pink)	02:49
* timeless nods		02:49
timeless	we're kinda funny about our colors	02:49
timeless	got a pair of rose colored glasses?	02:49
timeless	actually, i think the majority of finns here have pairs they could give up	02:50
DocScrutinizer	well, our drivers' licences here actually are pink (have been), but they are just caled cardboard	02:50
* javispedro notes the lemmings have already forgot about how bad MS is now that the noksoft phone "concepts" are out, what with the engadget post having +2500 drools		02:50
ieatlint	heh, all i can say is i went out today and bought an android phone	02:51
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DrGrov	Good evening guys and gals	02:51
DocScrutinizer	timeless: seems to me like they'll terribly need those rose colored glasses soonish	02:51
Ken-Young	ieatlint, Why the rush to abandon maemo - nothing works anymore poorly than it did last Thursday.	02:52
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: microkia, not noksoft	02:53
ieatlint	Ken-Young: nothing works any better than it did a year ago really either... also, my mobile carrier had an awesome deal for this weekend, heh	02:53
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: hey, I love doing Nok* word games. DrNokSnes, remember? =)	02:53
ieatlint	got a phone with a $499 retail price for $40	02:53
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mikki-kun	uhhhh, any bash pros around?	02:56
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budfive	mikki-kun: ask and find out :)	02:57
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mikki-kun	i did switch my PS1 on my n900, and tried adding color, but that kind of killed it badly...	02:57
Ken-Young	They may be too bashful to respond.	02:57
mikki-kun	my PS1 is "\t \e[34m[-\e[32m\u\e[0m\e[34m-\e[0m\h \e[34m>\e[0m "	02:57
mikki-kun	and when i input there, when ssh'd to my n900 more that 113 chars it resets the line and starts writing at the beginning of the line, overwriting PS1 and what is typed before that	02:58
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DocScrutinizer	hehe	02:59
DocScrutinizer	that's probably also libvte	03:00
DocScrutinizer	not bash	03:00
DocScrutinizer	I've seen similar oddities with xterm and bash on SHR & FR	03:01
mikki-kun	libvte?	03:01
mikki-kun	shr and fr is? :)	03:01
derf	mikki-kun: You have to surround the escape codes with \[ \] or the spacing gets screwed up.	03:01
mikki-kun	switching if colors is makeing the line work	03:01
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DocScrutinizer	FreeRunner, Openmoko phone	03:01
mikki-kun	derf: i'll try :)	03:02
timeless	ieatlint: actually, isn't community update coming along? that's something better than 1.3	03:02
budfive	derf: confirmed. that fixes it	03:02
mikki-kun	derf: so like this? "\t\[ \]\e[34m[-\e[32m\u\e[0m\e[34m-\e[0m\h\[ \]\e[34m>\[ \]\e[0m"	03:03
pupnik	"This video contains content from Al Jazeera. It is not available in your country. "	03:03
pupnik	what the fuck is wrong with Germany??	03:03
timeless	heh	03:03
timeless	pupnik: possibly wwii consequences	03:03
nox-	pupnik, o_O	03:03
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pupnik	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvk25tHonbk << can you see this? (al jazeera)	03:04
nox-	this still exists http://www.youtube.com/user/aljazeeraenglish	03:04
nox-	uh no	03:04
nox-	silly stuff...	03:05
ieatlint	timeless: not going to solve any of my big criticisms, or improve the hardware performance. i've been waiting for the n900's successor. i read friday's release to say that it may never happen, or at the very least, won't happen anytime soon	03:05
ieatlint	my n900 is 15months old, and nothing has even been announced to replace it	03:05
timeless	ieatlint: actually, i think you misread the release	03:05
timeless	lemme look more carefully	03:05
ieatlint	not waiting around any longer	03:05
pupnik	nox-: yes but the content is blocked here -	03:05
timeless	> Nokia still plans to ship a MeeGo-related product later this year.	03:05
ieatlint	no matter the wording, it doesn't announce any specific phone or give a release time other than "this year"	03:05
* SpeedEvil passes timeless /dev/urandom.		03:05
* javispedro waits for tracker to "deindex" 7000 pictures		03:05
timeless	ieatlint: "this year" should be 2011	03:06
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ieatlint	yes, but there's a good 10 months left of it	03:06
pupnik	all al jazeera youtubes seem to be censored in germany	03:06
SpeedEvil	I'm personally happy for hardware to be at the end of the year.	03:06
SpeedEvil	As I have a device in good condition.	03:06
SpeedEvil	But...	03:06
* javispedro thinks it'll probably be released by the end of the year		03:07
nox-	pupnik, wtf	03:07
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mikki-kun	dashavoo: ahhhh, i got it and thanks a lot for that \o/	03:07
ieatlint	my device is in good condition, but the warranty is gone, the device underpowered versus competitors, and the maps are a joke	03:07
nox-	pupnik, this still runs from here: http://www.youtube.com/user/aljazeeraenglish	03:07
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mikki-kun	anybody who wants to try it out: PS1="\t\[ \]\[\e[34m\][-\[\e[32m\]\u\[\e[34m\]-\[\e[0m\]\h\[ \]\[\e[34m\]>\[ \]\[\e[0m\]"	03:07
nox-	just not the videos linked from it...	03:07
* trumee__ is trying out nitdroid		03:08
* trumee__ maybe will have to move to android someday		03:08
trumee__	irc client on android is rubbish	03:09
trumee__	xchat is much better	03:09
javispedro	android itself is rubbish =)	03:09
mikki-kun	trumee__: why not use ssh and screen for linux-based clients?	03:09
pupnik	nox-: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdnp3qvMFwU that one works	03:10
trumee__	i use znc on my desktop and connect to it using xchat	03:10
nox-	pupnik, wtf is wrong with youtube...	03:10
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trumee__	mikki-kun, no idea how to do nick completion on android	03:10
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mikki-kun	no tab button?	03:12
SpeedEvil	Get a galaxy tab.	03:13
SpeedEvil	That must have a ta button.	03:13
trumee__	mikki-kun, cant find it	03:13
DrGrov	Give me a list of 3 phones I should consider to use after I bash in the N8 with a sledgehammer	03:13
timeless	yeah, i couldn't get the irc client for android to do anything useful	03:13
trumee__	i was hoping to test swype, but android market doesnt list it	03:13
timeless	DrGrov: what did you have before the n8	03:14
timeless	and why in the world did you buy the n8?	03:14
* jonwil wishes he could figure out why his cell broadcast SMS test code was broken		03:14
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DrGrov	timeless: I bought the N8 for the camera and multimedia stuff.	03:14
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* jonwil wishes he had a way to do a low level packet capture of the cell broadcast SMS packet being sent from the cell modem back to the AP side		03:14
DrGrov	timeless: I had a N900, then a Samsung Galaxy 3 and then the N8.	03:15
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mikki-kun	jonwil: maybe setup an own cell tower?	03:15
timeless	DrGrov: you require 12mpix ?	03:15
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jonwil	the cell broadcast SMS messages are being recieved	03:16
DrGrov	timeless: It has served me well. No, not a new phone. 5 could even be enough. Now I am more into the actual phone.	03:16
DrGrov	timeless: Not so much into the geeky stuff, surely I want geeky stuff but it is not the most important.	03:17
jonwil	what I need to figure out (by dumping the low level packets e.g.) is whether the issues with decoding them come from my test code	03:17
jonwil	or from the lower level code in libsms and libcsd-sms	03:17
timeless	DrGrov: i presume you don't want/need a hardware keyboard	03:17
timeless	you don't require hackable since you got the n8	03:17
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* timeless would just get an iphone4		03:18
DrGrov	timeless: A hardware keyboard, physical keyboard. That makes things a whole lot easier though.	03:18
DrGrov	timeless: Nah, not an iPhone. Do not want to become such a user.	03:18
DrGrov	timeless: Other suggestions?	03:19
jonwil	If I wasnt a N900 user (and didnt care about hackable) I would choose the HTC Desire Z or Motorola Milestone	03:19
timeless	i haven't heard good things about the milestone	03:19
mavhc	there's hackable and there's hackable	03:19
jonwil	if I didn't care about physical keyboard, one of the Galaxy S family would be my choice	03:19
DrGrov	timeless: Would you suggest a HTC Legend or a HTC Desire HD?	03:20
trumee__	facebook app on android is nice	03:20
mavhc	I have a milestone	03:20
timeless	trumee__: ooh, i should try that!	03:20
* timeless wonders where the nitdroid n900 is		03:20
DrGrov	trumee__: Yes, that is nice. My soon-to-be-wife got the Galaxy S.	03:20
jonwil	If you dont care about physical keyboard, the Galaxy S family are the best Android handsets out there	03:20
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DrGrov	jonwil: I am seriously getting upset again. Depressed also.	03:21
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jonwil	why are you depressed	03:21
jonwil	?	03:21
DrGrov	I mean that again I am into my old habits of changing phone like it is my underwear.	03:21
trumee__	timeless, couldnt get youtube/flash to work though	03:21
trumee__	timeless, on nitdroid 0.0.9	03:22
timeless	oh, is there a way to upgrade nitdroid?	03:22
timeless	does it auto offer/update?	03:22
DrGrov	jonwil: That is why I am getting depressed.	03:22
DrGrov	jonwil: Since I know that once I start changing phones I will not stop... :/	03:22
trumee__	timeless, i dont think so. but i am not an expert	03:22
trumee__	closing apps on android is so unintuitive.	03:23
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jonwil	hmmm, might post to the dev mailing list asking if anyone knows how to dump low level cellmo packets	03:24
pupnik	minimize app, then start task killer, then kill app	03:24
mavhc	don't close them then	03:24
DrGrov	jonwil: You think I would benefit from changing back to the Galaxy 3 for the time being so I can get used to Android again before eventually buying something else?	03:24
nox-	pupnik, wtf really?	03:25
jonwil	What was wrong with your N900?	03:25
EdLin	DrGrov: I'd suggest an HTC HD2 if you want hackable non-n900 phone, it runs Android very well, and can also run Meego and WM6.5, WP7, and Ubuntu, among other things in emulation.	03:25
mikki-kun	i have seen quite a few devices so far and the G2 and Nexus 1 look nice, as does Moto Defy (is a bit sturdy, at least from the looks)	03:25
mavhc	the point is you don't have to close apps	03:25
DrGrov	EdLin: What are the prices on the HTC HD2 at the momen?	03:26
pupnik	nox-: well yes	03:26
jonwil	yeah the HTC HD2 seems to be the "little phone that could"	03:26
pupnik	but you shouldn't need to do that	03:26
EdLin	DrGrov: free on contract refurbished, t-mobile is retiring it.	03:26
budfive	anybody played with the webos devices? pre looked pretty interesting a while back	03:26
mikki-kun	jonwil: well, i wish you the best of luck with hacking and have fun while doing so. i hope and am pretty sure you will be successful... maybe try it once while on a booze ^^	03:26
DrGrov	EdLin: Is it SIM unlocked?	03:27
nox-	pupnik, and that when most)?) apps are java too? how much ram do androids usually have? :)	03:27
EdLin	DrGrov: if you want it without a contract, you can get it for a little over $200 on ebay.	03:27
mavhc	moving from maemo to webos would just be being awkward	03:27
jonwil	I dont drink alcohol :)	03:27
DrGrov	EdLin: Ok, that is a reasonable price at least :)	03:27
EdLin	DrGrov: tmobile us will give you the unlock code after 40 days.	03:27
DrGrov	What is the easiest way to get music on the Galaxy 3? Via memory card perhaps?	03:27
jonwil	I considered webos when I was shoping for my new phone but then HP bought Palm and I have blacklisted HP	03:27
pupnik	webos devices don't have landscape keyboard	03:27
EdLin	if you ask for it	03:27
jonwil	so I rejected webos	03:27
pupnik	what's bad about hp jonwil ?	03:27
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DrGrov	EdLin: Will it work in Europe as a 3G phone with HSPA/HSDPA capacity?	03:28
mavhc	their sauce	03:28
EdLin	DrGrov: no, for that you'll need to get a european hd2.	03:28
trumee	Nitdroid rebooted my device!. Back in maemo and lovely xchat	03:28
mikki-kun	jonwil: maybe it would help once ^^ not saying it will, it might just give you an inspiration :) (i for one drink very rarely as well, maybe once every 6 months, if i find the time)	03:28
DrGrov	How can I know which battery is for the Galaxy 3? I have 2 Samsung batteries which look scarely similar	03:28
jonwil	I get enough inspiration from the large quantities of Coca-Cola I consume :)	03:29
mikki-kun	DrGrov: no ID infos on them?	03:29
mikki-kun	jonwil: if you think so :) maybe switching to pepsi would help already XD	03:29
DrGrov	mikki-kun: Ah yes, stupid me :) Perhaps too focused on disappointment :)	03:29
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jonwil	coke > pepsi	03:29
EdLin	DrGrov: American 3g phones won't work in general on european 3g networks, except the n8 which is pentaband.	03:29
jonwil	:P	03:29
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mikki-kun	DrGrov: no problem ^^	03:29
DrGrov	I think now it is time to really shut down the N8 and leave it in the shelf and get down and dirty with the Galaxy 3	03:29
jonwil	I have spent quite a few nights since getting my N900 staying up until early in the AM drinking cola and trying to reverse engineer stuff	03:29
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DocScrutinizer	EdLin: citation needed	03:30
DrGrov	Memory card is the easiest way to get music onto the Galaxy 3?	03:30
jonwil	Don't drink Pepsi unless I have no other choice (i.e. when I am at KFC)	03:30
mikki-kun	jonwil: i know what you mean with either stuff for studies to do or browsing infos for how to hack my gentoo installs even nicer :)	03:31
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: T-Mobile uses AWS, AT&T mostly uses non-EU bands also.	03:31
DocScrutinizer	so that's no statement about phones, no?	03:31
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: phones don't usually support 3 different 3g schemes.	03:31
DocScrutinizer	mhm	03:32
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: it would make the radio too expensive.	03:32
* jonwil is glad he is switching to a new carrier		03:32
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jonwil	The old carrier is building a UMTS850 network	03:32
mikki-kun	jonwil: which one you switched to?	03:32
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: nokia did make a radio that supports all of them though, and put it in the n8.	03:32
jonwil	well I switched from Vodafone Australia to TPG Mobile (who are a reseller of Optus Australia)	03:32
jonwil	just waiting for my new SIM to be activated	03:33
mikki-kun	did anybody hear, nokia "sub-CEO" of usa got a kick and a Microsoft guy took over...	03:33
jonwil	and my number to be ported over	03:33
jonwil	then I will get an email and I will know to switch SIMs	03:33
mikki-kun	DrGrov: you mean this one? http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i5800_galaxy_3-3395.php	03:33
DrGrov	Damn this	03:33
EdLin	mikki-kun: that's the third former microsoft employee to take an executive position since elop took over, it's a coup, not a partnership.	03:33
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DrGrov	mikki-kun: Yes, that one	03:34
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mikki-kun	EdLin: you know what my mind thinks: ":\| let's go on a hunt for microsoft guys"	03:34
EdLin	lol	03:34
mikki-kun	DrGrov: the screen-size seems rather small	03:34
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EdLin	DrGrov: 400x240?!	03:34
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mikki-kun	EdLin: hey, i am a Finn and am highly offended by what is happening to Nokia -.-	03:35
DrGrov	mikki-kun: I have it already actually. It is a phone I had as my 2nd phone	03:35
EdLin	DrGrov: and tft from samsung? That's not exactly a high-end android phone.	03:35
DrGrov	EdLin: Read my last writing and you will understand	03:35
EdLin	and you don't want a low-end android phone, trust me on this, I had a cliq xt.	03:35
DocScrutinizer	EdLin: that all sounds correct, but is no facts. Obviously N900 can work with some US 3G networks. And afaik a lot of those supporting all US 3G bands at least support some rest-of-world bands as well, so will work with some e.g European carriers, just like the european phones work with some US carriers	03:35
DrGrov	EdLin: I actually love the phone, not getting too used with it last time though.	03:36
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jonwil	The good news is that I found a few things out about the N900 cellmo stuff. Firstly I found out that the the SMS part of the N900 modem is using SMS isi interface version 5.1 (which is present in the documentation I have from www.wirelessmodemapi.com)	03:36
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: none support all US 3g bands....	03:36
EdLin	except the n8.	03:36
DrGrov	So how do I know which battery should go with the Galaxy 3? I have 2 different damn small Samsung batteries in front of me	03:36
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otwieracz	hello.	03:36
jonwil	Secondly I found out that the location stuff is using an ISI interface version NOT in the docs I have	03:36
EdLin	anyhow, the question was, does the American T-Mobile HD2 support european 3g? The answer to that is no.	03:36
EdLin	you have to get a European HD2.	03:37
otwieracz	Is available to start maemo without /usr?	03:37
DocScrutinizer	DrGrov: I'd guess when it fits, it should work	03:37
DrGrov	DocScrutinizer: Ok, it fits actually and says 1500mAh	03:37
DocScrutinizer	I mean that'd be utterly silly of Samsung to build two mechanically identical noncompatible batteries	03:38
mikki-kun	does here anybody have a sports-band for his n900?	03:38
DrGrov	DocScrutinizer: The other battery is for my Samsung S5600	03:38
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: there's more to tmobile US's AWS scheme than the bands, by the way, they use the bands differently than in the EU.	03:38
DrGrov	Not sure it is the same though	03:38
otwieracz	I'm trying to move my n810 /usr to mmcblk0p1 (internal mmc), but I want to know what to do if I make a mistake.	03:39
DrGrov	And I gotta find the damn charger also from somewhere :D	03:39
DrGrov	LOL	03:39
otwieracz	Is there any rescue console for maemo?	03:39
otwieracz	Eg. textmode, or something.	03:40
DocScrutinizer	EdLin: I just don't care. If I want to know if a phone works in EU, then I don't ask which carriers it accepts in US, I rather simply look at the device's specs	03:40
mikki-kun	otwieracz: uhhh, wait... /usr from your n810 to the n900?	03:40
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: if you don't care, why did you interfere in my answering a question someone else was asking? ;-)	03:40
DocScrutinizer	EdLin: if you can't read a short answer of me, why do you interfere with my mood?	03:41
otwieracz	mikki-kun: no, no	03:41
otwieracz	I need more space at / and I want to move /usr to mmcblk0p1.	03:42
mikki-kun	on the n810 or n900? for the n900 i can say from what i read it will render your device unbootable	03:42
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: see	03:42
DocScrutinizer	~optification	03:42
apt	extra, extra, read all about it, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and ...	03:42
otwieracz	n810	03:42
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: there are things in /usr that MUST be in / instead, Nokia messed it up	03:43
luke-jr	http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/feb11/02-11partnership.mspx	03:43
luke-jr	Qt doomed?	03:43
DocScrutinizer	duh N810	03:43
DocScrutinizer	probably even worse	03:43
EdLin	luke-jr: Nokia is doomed too, look at all of the other mobile partnerships Microsoft made.	03:44
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luke-jr	XD	03:44
otwieracz	Listen - I want to mount /dev/mmcblk0p1 at /usr	03:44
otwieracz	from fstab.	03:44
luke-jr	otwieracz: good luck.	03:44
luke-jr	otwieracz: unless you're making your own OS…	03:44
otwieracz	It makes difference?	03:44
otwieracz	Probably it wouldn't there's no difference for apps - it's /usr anyway.	03:45
luke-jr	otwieracz: Maemo won't boot if /usr isn't in the main rootfs	03:45
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otwieracz	So stupid.	03:46
otwieracz	Any good reason for this?	03:46
luke-jr	no reason would be a good reason by definition	03:46
otwieracz	And any other ideas how to get more space at /?	03:46
EdLin	otwieracz: rm -rf /	03:47
otwieracz	/dev/mtdblock4 249.5M 216.4M 33.1M 87% /	03:47
mikki-kun	EdLin: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mmcblk0p0 :)	03:47
otwieracz	33mb, quite a few...	03:47
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EdLin	mikki-kun: I prefer /dev/random, it makes the results more interesting	03:48
mikki-kun	for anyone trying this what i wrote... it will basically kill your device	03:48
EdLin	yeah, don't try this at home kids	03:48
mikki-kun	EdLin: that will take ages... urandom is there a bit faster...	03:48
mikki-kun	EdLin: and random needs input from you, so move your mouse XD	03:49
* jonwil wishes he could find a solitare game for his N900		03:49
otwieracz	random won't work fine.	03:49
timeless	jonwil: there is one	03:49
jonwil	where?	03:49
jonwil	Cant find anything in HAM	03:49
otwieracz	it's true random from input devices.	03:49
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jonwil	under "games"	03:49
otwieracz	urandom have entropy.	03:49
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timeless	jonwil: hrm, good question. i've seen it	03:50
mikki-kun	otwieracz: random takes your input as it's entropy pool.... if you make no input the pool is drained and no further input possible :)	03:50
* timeless wonders why downloads can't find it		03:50
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otwieracz	mikki-kun: as I tell.	03:51
jonwil	maybe the solitare thing is only in -testing or -devel	03:51
jonwil	which I dont have enabled	03:51
otwieracz	whatever, how to make more free space?	03:51
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budfive	anybody here using tmobile US's contractless $10/mo unlimited data service?	03:52
rm_you	budfive: i believe johnx is?	03:53
rm_you	i was on the plan but then when i got my own account they figured out i had a smartphone and switched me	03:53
budfive	rm_you: ok	03:53
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budfive	rm_you: I was using that just fine, but they downgraded me to 200mb one fine day without telling me	03:54
luke-jr	budfive: what?	03:54
luke-jr	where do yuo see this service?	03:54
DocScrutinizer	(<otwieracz> Any good reason for this?) <DocScrutinizer> otwieracz: there are things in /usr that MUST be in / instead, Nokia messed it up --- what of this has been unclear?	03:54
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Where in the world are you?	03:55
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Oh - UK - I forgot	03:55
jonwil	Australia	03:55
budfive	rm_you: they aren't saying anything about me using a smartphone, but are still refusing t o undo whatever they did. wondering if somebody knows something	03:55
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Oh - somewhat out.	03:55
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budfive	luke-jr: up until very recently, tmobile's contractless service had a $10/mo unlimited data option for dumb phones	03:55
rm_you	budfive: i think i may have heard something a while back about them planning to cap their data service somehow	03:55
luke-jr	oh, that's only with a voice plan though	03:55
rm_you	but assumed there would be warning	03:55
otwieracz	DocScrutinizer: it will be in /	03:56
* luke-jr struggles to maintain his effectively 10-USD-every-3-months-for-unlimited-data plan		03:56
DocScrutinizer	err, you said you want to move it?	03:56
budfive	rm_you: I'm not completely sure. Really seems like somebody screwed up. I talked to the rep, who spent 20 minutes figuring out that whatever happened shouldn't have happened, but couldn't undo it	03:57
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: please, stop playing stupid	03:57
jonwil	I like Australian mobile plans, they are so sane compared to what you get in say, the USA	03:57
otwieracz	There will be /usr with the same files like previous.	03:57
luke-jr	budfive: yeah, I hate how mistakes can't be undone at TMo	03:57
luke-jr	they screwed up my last SIM card, so I had to pay for a replacement	03:57
luke-jr	they wouldn't even waive the cost of the new one	03:57
budfive	luke-jr: seemed like the 20 minutes was wasted, since he couldn't do anything anyway	03:57
budfive	luke-jr: what service are you using?	03:58
otwieracz	/usr will be mountpoint.	03:58
DocScrutinizer	there will be NOT, unless I misunderstood you want to move and mount it, which obviously means there's a state before mounting where it's not in /	03:58
DocScrutinizer	and init scripts need things from /usr prior to you getting to moint it	03:58
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otwieracz	before rootfs is mounted?	04:00
otwieracz	(so before fstab)	04:00
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jonwil	BINGO	04:00
jonwil	I found the ISI headers I wanted in the QT SDK download	04:00
otwieracz	everything needed for that early stage isn't in initfs?	04:01
luke-jr	budfive: T-Mobile	04:01
budfive	luke-jr: what's your $10/3months scheme?	04:02
luke-jr	budfive: Sidekick plan. Allowed to have the daily fee expire with 1 minute remaining, then refilled before the 1 minute expires.	04:03
luke-jr	without the daily fee, texting and voice are prohibited, but not data	04:03
budfive	luke-jr: hmmm. is that somethng that's long grandfathered?	04:03
luke-jr	yeah, pretty much	04:04
luke-jr	it's like $1/day + 15 cents/min	04:04
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otwieracz	hmm	04:04
otwieracz	linuxrc looks quite interactive - boot options (mmc, usb), how to use it?	04:05
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DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: no idea. I first didn't realize you were asking about diablo/N810. N900 has no initrd. I'd nevertheless guess you will run into problems on N810 as well	04:05
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: serial console I guess	04:05
DocScrutinizer	(interactive)	04:05
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otwieracz	uhm...	04:06
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DocScrutinizer	also NB that N900 init doesn't care about fstab, except for creating it fresh on every boot	04:07
otwieracz	I wosh that there is no some hotkey and poof, I see console, not nokia logo.	04:07
otwieracz	wish*	04:07
DocScrutinizer	alas that's not how it works. You need a fixture jig and a serial terminal	04:08
DocScrutinizer	to contact the testpoints under battery (on N810 I think they are beneath battery)	04:08
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nox-	bbl	04:09
otwieracz	I saw.	04:09
DocScrutinizer	s/beneath/aside/	04:10
apt	DocScrutinizer meant: to contact the testpoints under battery (on N810 I think they are aside battery)	04:10
DocScrutinizer	nah, under battery as well	04:11
otwieracz	Goodnight.	04:11
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GeneralAntilles	Did Texrat coin Elopocalypse	05:09
wmarone	don't know, it could have come from anywhere	05:09
SpeedEvil	Elopalypse scans better.	05:11
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil: yeah, it does.	05:11
GeneralAntilles	Catching up on the news is giving me indigestion.	05:11
GeneralAntilles	Somebody cheer me up.	05:11
* SpeedEvil passes GeneralAntilles the happy gas.		05:12
pupnik	hahahh	05:17
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GeneralAntilles	Fuck me, I need a day off.	05:17
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* pupnik dcc's GeneralAntilles a rosy-cheeked professional gal		05:18
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* GeneralAntilles should stop posting to Talk from work on the N900.		05:49
GeneralAntilles	My coherence goes out the window.	05:49
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zerojay	Shorten that.	05:56
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zerojay	Stop Talk.	05:56
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GeneralAntilles	zerojay: surprisingly it's better this weekend than it has been in months.	06:07
GeneralAntilles	zerojay: also: Howdy!	06:07
GeneralAntilles	How's kicks?	06:07
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zerojay	Not too bad. I haven't been threatening to jump off the balcony like poor Texrat seems close to doing. Heh.	06:07
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, he does get wrapped up emotionally in this shit.	06:10
GeneralAntilles	I should talk, though, I've been on the very edge of throttling somebody at work the past two days.	06:10
zerojay	lol	06:11
GeneralAntilles	MWKN tomorrow is going to be very cathartic, I think.	06:11
zerojay	I don't really have the anger and emotion about it because I blasted all of it out back when the Maemo -> MeeGo switch happened.	06:11
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully Jaffa will be able to trim some of the more vitriolic stuff. :D	06:12
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, bad enough the bastards put us through THAT mess.	06:12
GeneralAntilles	But then to lead us around like a bunch of idiots for 12 months.	06:12
Ken-Young	zerojay, Compared the this week, the maemo abandonment was nothing, I think.	06:12
zerojay	Ken-Young: When that happened, I knew THIS would happen, it was just a matter of time.	06:13
GeneralAntilles	At least there were positive possibilities with MeeGo.	06:13
Ken-Young	zerojay, I was more gullible, I guess.	06:13
GeneralAntilles	I can't believe I didn't see it coming.	06:13
GeneralAntilles	Self delusion, I guess.	06:13
Ken-Young	Right up until Friday morning I was a believer.	06:13
zerojay	Let's see... having the basic message be "we don't want community" from the start was great.	06:13
zerojay	Including hiring a community manager that did nothing but push people away. That was pretty cool.	06:14
timeless	GeneralAntilles: at least they led you guys around	06:14
timeless	one of the things noted by he new ceo is an absolute lack of leadership	06:14
GeneralAntilles	timeless: I'm feeling particularly bad about those people whose livelihoods are going to be screwed with by this.	06:14
timeless	GeneralAntilles: i don't	06:15
Ken-Young	There's leadership - leadership from Redmond.	06:15
zerojay	Honestly, it's not like Nokia had a whole ton of choice here if they wanted to even come close to being in the race, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.	06:15
timeless	finland gets what it deserves	06:15
timeless	stick all your eggs in one basket	06:15
GeneralAntilles	timeless: hehe, well, they're not all Finns.	06:15
timeless	and some day you're get a mess	06:15
timeless	s/re/ll/	06:15
apt	timeless meant: and some day you'll get a mess	06:15
GeneralAntilles	zerojay: well, I think they had an opportunity to make something happen with MeeGo last year.	06:15
GeneralAntilles	But I don't know why they squandered that away.	06:15
timeless	GeneralAntilles: management insisted on changing directions a number of times	06:16
timeless	and generally there was no punishment for doing this	06:16
timeless	just 6month setbacks	06:16
zerojay	The only way I felt that there was going to be any sort of chance of anything really happening was if they stayed on Maemo and continued on with it.	06:16
zerojay	Instead, they threw it all out and started over.	06:16
pupnik	i felt that way too zerojay	06:16
timeless	zerojay: power struggles work that way	06:16
timeless	we lost ours	06:17
timeless	my team lost more than most	06:17
GeneralAntilles	zerojay: Maemo had not long term viability.	06:17
zerojay	Then they didn't have anything on the high-end phones.. so they pushed Maemo/MeeGo out into the limelight WAY before it was ready.	06:17
GeneralAntilles	timeless: hopefully the dinosaurs will die off sooner rather than later.	06:17
timeless	GeneralAntilles: i was initially worried	06:17
GeneralAntilles	A multi-vendor platform is the only answer to Android.	06:17
zerojay	But I always felt that MeeGo being #1 for them was always a stop-gap measure to keep people happy until they had something else.	06:17
timeless	the announcement only showed a couple of casualties	06:18
Ken-Young	zerojay, Well, if they hadn't have pushed it out then, we'd probably have no maemo devices at all.	06:18
zerojay	I just never guessed it would have been "use another company's OS", honestly.	06:18
timeless	but i've heard of a couple since the announcement	06:18
zerojay	Ken-Young: We already had a Maemo device.	06:18
timeless	zerojay: the os isn't so important	06:18
timeless	it's the ecosystem, which includes a store and apps	06:18
pupnik	you guys are the best community though ... <sniff>	06:18
timeless	remember nokia's store was....Ovi	06:18
Ken-Young	zerojay, But that one wasn't really ready either.	06:18
zerojay	They weren't pushing it as the company savior at the time. :)	06:19
timeless	MS's marketplace solves the 'ovi' problem	06:19
pupnik	i thought apt-get solved the 'ovi problem'	06:19
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timeless	as for apps, i don't think Ovi managed to attract many apps	06:19
GeneralAntilles	zerojay: yeah, I couldn't have pictured that from Nokia.	06:19
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GeneralAntilles	Can't really picture it still.	06:19
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timeless	whereas MS probably has managed more	06:19
Ken-Young	So who's most screwed within Nokia - the Symbian guys, the Qt guys, or the Meego guys?	06:20
timeless	Ken-Young: the symbian guys have been dead for years	06:20
GeneralAntilles	Probably Symbian most immediately.	06:20
timeless	and if they didn't know that, they deserve what they got	06:20
pupnik	for crapps we could get android ones	06:20
GeneralAntilles	But, yeah, zombies can only be so screwed.	06:20
rm_you	SYmbian developers are dead on the inside? :P	06:20
zerojay	The Symbian guys couldn't possibly be screwed. They knew it was dead long ago. How they still had 1500 people on it is... just... I can't even think of how that happened.	06:20
* rm_you now pictures a room of zombies drooling on keyboards in front of monitors with the symbian logo		06:20
timeless	The Qt v. MeeGo question is interesting	06:20
GeneralAntilles	Qt seems like it has plenty of opportunities outside Nokia.	06:22
GeneralAntilles	I really wonder what's going to happen to that division, though.	06:22
GeneralAntilles	Given it's no longer prominent in Nokia's future strategy.	06:22
* GeneralAntilles sighs.		06:22
GeneralAntilles	I hate Stephen Elop.	06:22
zerojay	KDE's potentially the most screwed victim in all of this, lol.	06:22
GeneralAntilles	Your moment of zen for the weekend: http://bit.ly/gRZ7DJ	06:23
Ken-Young	zerojay, Why is that?	06:23
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zerojay	Ken-Young: They rely on QT.	06:23
timeless	zerojay: not really	06:24
zerojay	GeneralAntilles: I think that image has been shooped. No huge sweat stains under Ballmer's arms. :/	06:24
timeless	Qt is open source	06:24
zerojay	Yeah, I'm aware. :)	06:24
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GeneralAntilles	zerojay: hehe.	06:24
luke-jr	1 year till BSD licensed Qt?	06:24
* GeneralAntilles shudders at the thought of using Android.		06:25
zerojay	As an end-user, I like it.	06:25
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: join me in putting Gentoo on whatever devices suit me? XD	06:26
luke-jr	maybe GTA04?	06:26
zerojay	When my phone got bricked because my provider sent out a firmware update with a bootloader filled with nothing but FFFFFFF.. I had a hard time going back to using the N900, honestly.	06:26
GeneralAntilles	I've used Android	06:26
GeneralAntilles	I hated every minute of it.	06:26
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GeneralAntilles	Google's evil and Android is the black hole of open source.	06:27
zerojay	The black hole of open source? How do you figure?	06:27
GeneralAntilles	Co-opting a whole generation of developers to sink time into an "open source" project that doesn't resemble anything vaguely Open Source	06:28
GeneralAntilles	When you contribute to Android, you only contribute to Android.	06:28
GeneralAntilles	All you're doing is enabling Google's advertising machine.	06:28
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timeless	GeneralAntilles: sounds like fun	06:29
GeneralAntilles	There's far too much optimism coming out of people making money off MeeGo for me to take it seriously.	06:31
GeneralAntilles	Sounds just the same as it did last February.	06:31
GeneralAntilles	So far that's gotten us exactly nowhere.	06:31
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zerojay	Maybe that's part of the lure of Android. No longer feeling like you are spinning your wheels. I can tell you one thing, I had no idea what to do with myself when I walked into a cell phone store and actually found accessories for my phone. lol	06:32
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zerojay	Same thing with the apps. "Oh, this is what it's like to actually get support from companies, not just Nokia begging them to make something for us."	06:34
wmarone	GeneralAntilles: I'm borrowing the "black hole of open source" label	06:34
zerojay	Android won't ever be as much of a PC in the pocket as Maemo or the N900 was.	06:35
luke-jr	Gentoo!	06:35
zerojay	I think I lost years of my life waiting for stuff in Gentoo to compile, hehe.	06:35
luke-jr	zerojay: you wait for it?	06:36
zerojay	When you compile from stage 1, yes, you sure do.	06:36
Ken-Young	I wonder if Nokia would consider simply providing the binary blobs needed to allow a community port of meego to whatever there highest end WP7 phone is. After all, they might sell a significant number (n900ish volumes) of that phone to consumers who would never consider purchasing it otherwise.	06:38
wmarone	Ken-Young: not a chance, especially not with Microsoft involved	06:40
zerojay	And wmarone would know.	06:40
zerojay	WMArone. <--- :)	06:40
* wmarone listens to his PlaysForSure music		06:41
wmarone	oops, drm server went down	06:41
zerojay	failrone. :/	06:41
pupnik	can i get a refund from sellers who bundle windows in germany?	06:45
GeneralAntilles	wmarone: that's why Google is so much more evil than Apple.	06:45
GeneralAntilles	Apple doesn't really pretend to be something it's not. You know what you're getting into from the start (unless you're a fool).	06:46
pupnik	i'm happy with how unixy mobile devices are in 2010 :)	06:47
pupnik	2011	06:47
wmarone	pupnik: well, they're quite unixy but it's irrelevant if the end user can't take advantage of it should they want to	06:50
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pupnik	yeah	06:50
pupnik	could android be modified to be more gnu/linuxy?	06:51
wmarone	it could, but that's pointless	06:52
wmarone	since doing so would break you away from google	06:52
wmarone	and you'll be stuck	06:52
pupnik	?	06:53
pupnik	it would suck less...	06:53
pupnik	run X11 on another framebuffer...	06:53
Ken-Young	pupnik, It would suck differently.	06:53
pupnik	heh	06:53
pupnik	woohoo Ron Paul won the CPAC straw poll again	06:54
Ken-Young	pupnik, Those guys are True Believers.	06:54
pupnik	no they dis-believe what government tells them :)	06:55
pupnik	and that usually gives you a head start on figuring out the truth	06:56
pupnik	power and honesty don't go together	06:57
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GAN900	Hehe	07:00
pupnik	“I think we need to make a distinction between two different kinds of searches — informational and commercial,” he said. “If you search ‘cancer,’ that’s an informational search and on those, Google is amazing. But in commercial searches, Google’s results are really polluted."	07:05
pupnik	yea we noticed..	07:05
Ken-Young	Why doesn't Google just blacklist sites like eHow for search?	07:06
tank-man	learn to search?	07:06
tank-man	you can use "-ehow"	07:06
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zerojay	Ken-Young: They're supposed to roll out something soon for all that.	07:07
Ken-Young	Most casual searchers won't do that, so they get eHow crap (and other content farms).	07:07
pupnik	Ken-Young: they do punish sites that game the search engine	07:08
Ken-Young	pupnik, Not very successfully, it appears.	07:08
tank-man	compare "how to do everything" and "how to do everything -ehow"	07:09
tank-man	you just need the right search terms	07:09
Ken-Young	So users of Google are supposed to maintain their own lists of crap sites, and disallow them in their search queries?	07:10
zerojay	Google's in the middle of working on something to get rid of the content farms from results.	07:10
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zerojay	Heard it's supposed to be ready soon, but who knows.	07:11
pupnik	according to NYT this stuff is ongoing	07:13
rm_you	yeah i have that problem at work... we are rewriting search forms and we changed them from "pages and pages of text-boxes for each specific attribute related to a thing" and made it more google-like, in that now it's one box that just searches over all the same information as before, but all at the same time. turns out users are too stupid to understand how to search for things that way	07:16
rm_you	they type in "dog" and complain because they get like 10,000,000 results, and the top one isn't "the lifespan of a cocker-spaniel with diabetes", and then complain that our search doesn't work	07:17
rm_you	so frustrating	07:18
EdLin	rm_you: my roommate types in everything to google as a question in a complete sentence. somehow he manages to get search results that make sense doing it.	07:19
rm_you	yeah, i find that works sometimes, not sure how... thinking they just filter like 75% of the search terms that are smaller than four letters :P	07:19
EdLin	they don't filter "and"	07:20
rm_you	or basically, any word that is an article	07:20
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EdLin	they used to do that, read on a google blog they no longer filter articles indiscriminately.	07:20
rm_you	well, they DO technically filter "and"... it becomes part of the way they run the query, not technically a word in the search :P	07:21
rm_you	yeah, i remember when it was impossible to search for "the who" :P	07:21
EdLin	yeah, unless you put it in double quotes.	07:21
pupnik	have you seen the 'new?' reading-level parameter you can give in advanced search?	07:23
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pupnik	btw if you need product names with no google hits, i have a couple	07:23
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ketas	how sad... i thought i can buy truly good open phone in future, one that fits perfectly with my needs	08:50
blackthorne	isn't Android supposed to be that?	08:54
blackthorne	oh... you said good phone, sorry. never mind	08:54
ketas	:P	08:56
RobbieThe1st	heh	08:57
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ketas	well the answer seems to be in devices that are able to run several os'es easily... but that's not going to happen either	08:58
blackthorne	ketas: there aren't many mobile devices that are able to run several OS's decently	08:59
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blackthorne	well, if there is one, I can't recall	08:59
ketas	because they are locked to one, yes... much more than regular computers	09:00
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jonwil	bah, still cant find anyone who can help me with testing stuff for my Cell Broadcast SMS work :(	09:15
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TheJ	good morningstar	09:35
RST38h	Ahhahaha http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2888/11x021198h73vx.jpg	09:35
RST38h	[Bonus points for sing the original CGA palette]	09:35
RST38h	s/sing/using	09:35
TheJ	:)	09:36
jonwil	I just thought of another reason why the N900 is far better than most of the Android handsets from HTC, Moto etc	09:38
ketas	god, windows logo on nokia device	09:38
jonwil	Unlike HTC and Moto, Nokia complied with the GPL and other OSS licenses from day one	09:38
jonwil	HTC continues to release devices that violate the GPL (and then releases source code months later that may not actually match what was shipped on the device or may be incomplete or missing HW drivers)	09:39
ketas	noone cares about that nowadays, it's sad	09:39
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sgev	hi	09:40
TheJ	anyone here using the powerkernel v46.. just wondering is it worth to update?	09:40
sgev	are there means to unlock a SIM to make it open sim?	09:40
sgev	and if so how can this be stopped	09:40
sgev	with symbian phones i mean	09:40
RST38h	SIM or phone?	09:40
ketas	unlock a sim?	09:40
sgev	SIM	09:41
sgev	yes	09:41
ketas	what you mean	09:41
sgev	so it works on different networks	09:41
ketas	the sim?	09:41
sgev	yes	09:41
ketas	or the phone	09:41
sgev	like GSM sims	09:41
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RST38h	SIM cannot work on different networks	09:41
RST38h	SIM is tied to a network.	09:41
ketas	well it can roam	09:41
RST38h	It may work on other networks in roaming mode	09:41
sgev	RST38h: in roaming	09:41
sgev	but i mean if you want to trace someone	09:41
RST38h	But I guess this is not what this particular individual want	09:41
sgev	like say you lost a phone	09:42
ketas	hmm?	09:42
sgev	are there ways they can block you from trsacing it?	09:42
RST38h	sgev: Sorry, cannot answer your question, it does not parse.	09:42
ketas	i don't understand either	09:42
sgev	if a phone is list, like a GSM phone i mean	09:42
sgev	how do you track it	09:43
TheJ	imei?	09:43
ketas	like a blacklist?	09:43
sgev	yes IMEI	09:43
sgev	can the IMEI be changed or something?	09:43
RobbieThe1st	If the original sim is in it, you can probably ask for the location. Several countrys have blacklists of IMEI numbers; a blacklisted IMEI won't be allowed on the network	09:43
ketas	you want to change imei?!	09:43
sgev	not i	09:43
sgev	can people change it so they're not being tracked?	09:44
ketas	how this helps	09:44
sgev	ah	09:44
TheJ	put a tin foil hat on?	09:44
ketas	you can switch a phone	09:44
RobbieThe1st	Someone could turn it off, or remove the sim	09:44
RST38h	IMEI has nothing to do with SIM cards	09:44
RST38h	Cards have IMSI	09:44
sgev	well i mean tracking a phone and the sim	09:44
sgev	which is IMEI and IMSI	09:44
sgev	if they do turn it off, then?	09:45
RobbieThe1st	Mind you, if someone wanted to sell a stolen phone, they'd probably sell it overseas	09:45
RST38h	sgev: Ok, your question is best to be answered at www.google.com	09:45
sgev	but there is no way to circumvent the SIM to make it untraceable is there?	09:45
ketas	untraceable sim?	09:45
sgev	the oly possible way is they turn it off or remove the SIM	09:45
RST38h	Because it is really difficult to understand what you are asking about, but Google may figure it out, eventually	09:45
sgev	im asking if im lost my phone	09:45
sgev	can it be traced	09:45
TheJ	use a old phone thats imei is not registered, and an prepaid sim	09:45
RST38h	sgev: Yes, theoretically it can be traced by IMEI	09:46
sgev	ok	09:46
ketas	yes	09:46
sgev	and tracing the SIm too?	09:46
RST38h	sgev: Practically, you are out of luck because nobody will be doing this for you	09:46
ketas	yes	09:46
ketas	sim can be tracked too	09:46
RobbieThe1st	You can install custom software for tracking it	09:46
RST38h	Nobody will use your SIM card, so forget about IMSI	09:46
sgev	ok and nobody can actually manipulate the inner workings of a SIm to make it untraceable can they	09:46
RST38h	Throwing away the SIM card is the first thing a thief would do	09:47
ketas	well sim is supposed to be subscriber identifying module	09:47
sgev	yes but they wouldnt try to modify anything in there to make te SIM work and still not get caught?	09:47
RST38h	sgev: You can throw the SIM away and then it is untraceable	09:47
sgev	i get that	09:47
RST38h	Good.	09:47
RST38h	So, do not repeat the same question.	09:47
sgev	but im asking if people do anything to the SIM to make it work that makes it untraceable?	09:47
ketas	sim is id of customer	09:47
RST38h	No.	09:47
sgev	there's no such means to do it is there?	09:47
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RST38h	No.	09:47
sgev	sweet	09:48
sgev	thanks	09:48
RST38h	Good.	09:48
ketas	if you lost phone and it's still on with sim card, for example, my operator allows it's tracking	09:48
MohammadAG	mornin	09:49
TheJ	use different prepaid sims in different phones, switch off after ransom call, wipe fingerprints and toss the phone.	09:49
sgev	yeah but if the guy dumps the sim you;re sol	09:49
ketas	i can log in and find it's location	09:49
sgev	and by the time they track your IMEI	09:50
ketas	then, if they are stupid, you can track phone's usage with imei	09:50
sgev	you'd be in who knows where	09:50
sgev	not wortht the effort	09:50
sgev	who does the tracking for the IMEI?	09:50
sgev	the local telco or the phone brand?	09:51
EdLin	sgev: if you don't want someone to know where you are, don't use a bloody cell phone. Finish. The police and courts routinely use cell phone records to trace alibis, for example.	09:51
EdLin	sgev: imeis are registered by an international organiation.	09:51
TheJ	in my coyntry its the police with the operator	09:51
sgev	thats nice, who tracks it?	09:51
EdLin	sgev: all cell carriers belong to it.	09:51
ketas	yes, police here too	09:51
EdLin	sgev: and get the records	09:51
sgev	ok	09:51
ketas	you can report stolen phone and give it's imei	09:51
sgev	ok	09:52
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Jaffa	Morning, all	10:44
ketas	sun didn't rise today	10:50
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jonwil	Anyone here know how to dump the communications between the cell modem and the AP?	11:25
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jonwil	applications processor that is	11:25
jonwil	not the tower	11:25
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psycho_oreos	not without the right hardware and a rogue cell :)	11:34
MohammadAG	hmm	11:38
MohammadAG	suppose an open source dialer was done	11:38
MohammadAG	can we add 3G video call support?	11:38
flailingmonkey	mind would be blown	11:39
flailingmonkey	by that you don't just mean XMPP/Jingle video cacll	11:40
flailingmonkey	s/cacll/call/	11:41
apt	flailingmonkey meant: by that you don't just mean XMPP/Jingle video call	11:41
MohammadAG	I'm not sure what it's called	11:41
jonwil	looks like I can use tcpdump to dump the phonet messages	11:42
jonwil	and then analyze them with a wireshark plugin	11:42
jonwil	as for 3G video call, it depends on whether the cell modem firmware supports the lower level interfaces required	11:42
MohammadAG	it probably does	11:43
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flailingmonkey	the google chat video calls work using an XMPP extension called Jingle. Skype... well I have no idea, but in both cases they're just having library calls made I bet	11:44
MohammadAG	those aren't 3G video calls	11:45
flailingmonkey	then we are talking about the same thing :) the real 3G video calls, I have no clue	11:46
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flailingmonkey	does maemo 5 currently support 3G video calls (with closed source dialer)?	11:47
jonwil	nope, it doesnt support 3G video calls	11:48
Corsac	but you can do jabber video calls over 3G	11:48
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trumee	Corsac, that is besides the point	11:50
flailingmonkey	apparetly 3G video calls use or are based on 3G-324M?	11:50
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trumee	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3G-324M	11:52
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kerio	⁃/detach #	11:54
kerio	whoops	11:54
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flailingmonkey	wouldn't it need to get configuration for your 3G service provider, to use the right gateway,billing, etc	11:58
phellarv	11111111111111111111ider, to use the right gateway,billing, etc [10:58] [phellarv(+i)] [2:#maemo(+Cc1111	11:59
phellarv	Upps	11:59
GNUtoo\|laptop	btw is it possible to have an initramfs?	12:00
GNUtoo\|laptop	for instance I'd like to try the omap3 hardware encryption......on a rootfs	12:00
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GNUtoo\|laptop	oops wrong channel	12:01
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xkr47	does anyone have some software for the n900 to automatically download the necessary stuff for agps to get going?	12:05
MohammadAG	AGPS works out of the box	12:05
xkr47	for example when I connect my usb it could download the latest info so I wouldn't have to connect over 3g later when I go out hiking	12:05
MohammadAG	oh	12:05
xkr47	now I activate some program using gps at home before I leave and then immediately turn it off	12:06
xkr47	maybe I should just write a small program that just starts gps briefly when connected to internet over usb	12:07
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korhojoa	xkr47: that works. you could also just use something like launching gpsjinni and then closing it half a minute later	12:08
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flailingmonkey	my understanding of how agps works in the N900 is that it sent tower signal data to a server, and gets back the necessary gps "hints" for satellite stuff?	12:08
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xkr47	korhojoa, ok thanks	12:09
korhojoa	flailingmonkey: it does indeed do that. i do think it stores almanac info too	12:09
korhojoa	so it would lessen the use of the data	12:09
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flailingmonkey	would be helpful for it to do so	12:09
korhojoa	the almanac is what you need for getting the fast lock	12:10
korhojoa	that's how some gps navigators connect within seconds of powering on	12:10
korhojoa	tomtoms for instance "plug it in to your computer and enjoy fast locks for two weeks!"	12:10
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chx	two weeks? and then?	12:11
jonwil	well finding out all the secrets of the GPS stack on Maemo is on my todo list :)	12:12
flailingmonkey	right because without the almanac info, it takes a lot longer to get a gps fix	12:12
alterego	chx: then you have to plug it in again.	12:12
chx	interestin	12:12
chx	honestly, the most exciting and most disappointing gps are the new garmins	12:12
korhojoa	how so?	12:13
chx	i dont drive and i travel lots and i was very excited about cityXplorer -- but 10 usd/eur for a map per city that does not include updates? is this a joke?	12:13
jonwil	right now though I need to finish my emerge update world on Gentoo, then emerge wireshark, compile the wireshark plugin and load this packet capture	12:13
korhojoa	their wristwatch models are interesting though	12:13
korhojoa	chx: 'acquire' the maps online	12:13
jonwil	Nokia Maps on the N900 is good enough for me as someone who doesn't drive	12:13
chx	as far as i am aware cityxplorer is the only offline gps that has public transportation info	12:14
chx	korhojoa: tsk, tsk	12:14
korhojoa	i'm now stuck without sygic since i got a new n900, so the imei changed	12:14
jonwil	since I dont drive, the top-down view is fine	12:14
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korhojoa	there's a 3D view too	12:14
chx	jonwil: no public transport info in there.	12:14
jonwil	yeah that's the downside	12:14
psycho_oreos	there's GeePS, which utilises Google maps, but it has its own flaws	12:14
jonwil	I want to see someone write an open source GPS app using OpenStreetMap map data	12:15
jonwil	and then overlay General Transit Feed Specification data (which is what Google uses for its public transit stuff) on top	12:15
korhojoa	jonwil: AGTL uses openstreetmap data	12:15
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alterego	Columbus will be use OSM	12:16
alterego	using ..	12:16
alterego	Columbus, what a fucking waste of my time.	12:16
korhojoa	how so?	12:16
chx	psycho_oreos: http://www.my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?name=Crochik_GeePS&faq=38&fldAuto=1940 this? public transit? offline?	12:16
alterego	I thought ... "Write a sleek GPS app" .. "It'll be mature and ready for the next device" ...	12:16
alterego	Ffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Nokia!	12:17
korhojoa	ahh.	12:17
jonwil	an open-source cross-platform GPS app with free map data that provides voice guidance and other important features would be a GREAT thing	12:17
korhojoa	well, just start over with WP7 (trollface.jpg)	12:17
alterego	:/	12:17
korhojoa	heh. make it run on qt	12:17
alterego	I spent a year learning Qt and developing Columbus ..	12:17
psycho_oreos	chx, yes that. Not sure on public transit, doubt it. Offline mode? won't work, data isn't being cached I bet	12:17
korhojoa	qt runs on wp7, right?	12:17
alterego	korhojoa: no	12:18
korhojoa	or of it doesn't: make a qt lib for ot	12:18
korhojoa	it*	12:18
alterego	korhojoa: that seems to be one of Nokias agreements with MS, no Qt.	12:18
korhojoa	really?	12:18
korhojoa	FUCK THAT	12:18
jonwil	I think a lot of it is simply that WP7 is .net only	12:18
jonwil	and there is no .net port of QT	12:19
jonwil	even if there was a .net port of QT it wouldn't make cross-platform-ness any easier	12:19
ketas	be quiet and let microsoft do it's job, it will be gentle	12:19
jonwil	since .net and regular C++ arent the same	12:19
korhojoa	hahaha	12:19
korhojoa	ketas: "bend over, bite your lip"	12:19
ketas	yes	12:19
jonwil	I dont intend to sit there and take it from Microsoft	12:19
alterego	I heard WP development was mainly silver shite ...	12:20
jonwil	I havent spent a cent on Microsoft software in years and I have no intention to start now	12:20
jonwil	The only GOOD thing Microsoft makes is mice	12:20
jonwil	and even then they dont make the mouse I like anymore	12:20
ketas	microsoft doesn't make mice	12:20
korhojoa	"ahh, yes. feels great, doesn't it? trust me, closed source will keep this interaction hidden from everyone else"	12:20
jonwil	I have a mouse right here that says Microsoft on it	12:20
alterego	I've got a well sexy Microsoft Mouse my gfs mum got me for xmas.	12:20
dotblank	jonwil, you know tMS's mice are actually logitech	12:20
ketas	korhojoa: hahaha	12:21
dotblank	its just rebranded	12:21
jonwil	maybe Microsoft has changed lately but I know that they used to make mice	12:21
korhojoa	ketas: it'd be fun if it wasn't true	12:21
jonwil	or at least did the design and stuff and then had an OEM makes them	12:21
korhojoa	jonwil: the original explorer series :3	12:21
alterego	I got one of those wireless arc mice. Really nice :)	12:21
alterego	Perfect for my lappy.	12:21
ketas	i want phones able to run several oses	12:21
dotblank	this ^	12:22
jonwil	I have a Microsoft Intellimouse Optical with the 2 side buttons and wish I could find another one exactly like it	12:22
korhojoa	get vmware on it	12:22
jonwil	there is a lack of non-sucky mice around these days	12:22
Venemo_N900	interesting that the crappy nokia announcement that denounced meego actually boosted irc on both #maemo and #meego	12:22
dotblank	oh yea I know	12:22
korhojoa	"fuck it, we'll do it without them"	12:22
ketas	but hw?	12:22
ketas	nokia makes good hw	12:23
dotblank	we can build our own phones on the 8500 platform	12:23
jonwil	All the mice out there are wireless (which suck), tiny notebook mice (also suck) or "basic"	12:23
dotblank	http://www.stericsson.com/platforms/U8500.jsp	12:23
korhojoa	is that the dual cortex design?	12:24
alterego	I think this wireless mouse is very good ...	12:24
jonwil	All I want in a mouse is a decent optical sensor, nice large easy-to-hold form factor, standard USB HID interface (with no wireless) and nice big buttons (including the left and right side buttons)	12:24
jonwil	and a scroll wheel	12:24
jonwil	but no-one makes the mouse I want	12:25
* APTX has a razer mouse		12:25
ketas	what you think about new logitech wheel?	12:25
jonwil	It was hard enough finding a keyboard I liked (ended up with a Logitec)	12:25
ketas	tilts left and right	12:25
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ketas	i mean you scroll up and down, press down, left, right	12:26
ketas	very useless	12:26
korhojoa	APTX: which one? i've got the copperhead and the mamba	12:26
APTX	Diamondback 3g	12:26
jonwil	never really liked Logitech mice so if MS have stopped making their own mice designs, I dont know where my next mouse will come from	12:26
APTX	got it as a present	12:26
korhojoa	i do like my trackball though.	12:26
* APTX likes it		12:27
korhojoa	APTX: same here, i got mine as presents	12:27
* ketas tracks korhojoa's balls		12:27
korhojoa	:D	12:27
korhojoa	no! track my point!	12:27
ketas	---> .	12:27
korhojoa	trackpoints > trackpads	12:27
ketas	trackpads?	12:28
jonwil	I hate laptops with trackpads or worse still those little nubs	12:28
korhojoa	touchpads, whatever	12:28
jonwil	I would always use an external mouse with a laptop	12:28
RobbieThe1st	Nubmouse FTW	12:28
korhojoa	the nubs are awesome.	12:28
jacekowski	tits	12:29
jacekowski	nipples	12:29
ketas	heck, what to do with 18Mp camera in mobile phone	12:29
korhojoa	clit	12:29
jacekowski	ketas: HD porn	12:29
korhojoa	ketas: take hq upskirt photos	12:29
ketas	18Mp tiny lens, 1mm sensor	12:29
korhojoa	well then. we've defined why.	12:29
ketas	something like that	12:29
korhojoa	add a flash. alternatively, get someone to flash	12:30
psycho_oreos	dotblank, too bad that platform doesn't have hardware keyboard	12:30
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ketas	korhojoa: hahaha	12:30
ketas	so women make best pictures?	12:31
Venemo_N900	dotblank: tell us when you built a phone. we may buy it :)	12:31
dotblank	lol	12:31
ketas	they flash well	12:31
* chx has a Lenovo T400s and have the trackpad disabled.		12:31
flailingmonkey	I have really liked the Razer Orochi	12:31
dotblank	I think that might a big project	12:31
chx	These trackpoints are really the best things evah	12:31
RobbieThe1st	Trackpad's good for one thing: Scrolling	12:31
dotblank	would need help from say... all of you	12:31
korhojoa	chx: pretty much, yes.	12:31
RobbieThe1st	I use my trackpad and trackpoint on my T500	12:31
flailingmonkey	we'll just hack the shit Noki-doze phone and slap meego on it	12:32
* alterego tries to think of fun things he can do with 2 N900s and an N95 8G		12:32
flailingmonkey	WP7 is all about Silverlight, not even C#... so I don't even know wtf its about	12:33
RobbieThe1st	Well heck, if I've got to hack my phone, I'd want an x86-compatible chip at least...	12:33
RobbieThe1st	Then there's -no limit- to the stuff you could run	12:33
psycho_oreos	except it drains battery like hell and its more expensive	12:33
korhojoa	alterego: dgps + 3D video streaming and use the n95 as a reverse camera	12:34
ketas	i own older t60	12:34
ketas	has both point and pad	12:34
ketas	sometimes point is good	12:34
RobbieThe1st	Psycho: Bigger battery, then!	12:34
flailingmonkey	lots of use of point and it starts to drift to one side	12:34
ketas	umm	12:35
ketas	laptop's clit	12:35
RobbieThe1st	Release the clit for 30 secs, and it stops the drift	12:35
ketas	weird	12:35
flailingmonkey	i realized, but its frustrating that it happens at all	12:35
korhojoa	yeah	12:35
ketas	buggy hw?	12:35
psycho_oreos	RobbieThe1st, and that would add even more cost to the device itself :) have a look at aava mobile	12:35
korhojoa	it's because of how it detects movement	12:36
RobbieThe1st	I figure Intel's gonna be building them with Intel procs	12:36
RobbieThe1st	But I mean... if I've got to hack it in the first place.	12:36
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RobbieThe1st	Not going to -buy- a locked-down phone anyway	12:36
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alterego	Intel will, but other ISVs wont.	12:38
maybeWTF	http://www.msqt.org/ old? :P	12:38
RobbieThe1st	Admittedly, though... a 5" device that can run a full OS and x86-compatible windows games would be frigging sweet. Even with 4hrs of full-speed batterylife	12:39
korhojoa	RobbieThe1st: so a oqo?	12:39
flailingmonkey	lolol ogo	12:39
flailingmonkey	*oqo	12:39
RobbieThe1st	Uh...	12:39
RobbieThe1st	No clue what that is	12:40
flailingmonkey	google will rescue you	12:40
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DocScrutinizer	~wtf oqo	12:41
apt	Gee... I don't know what oqo means...	12:41
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ketas	hmm	12:42
RobbieThe1st	http://www.oqo.com/products/index.html Cool... but too expensive. :\	12:43
RobbieThe1st	I see what you mean though. Kubuntu mobile on that, though..	12:43
ketas	i want n900	12:44
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RobbieThe1st	Something like that -might- be my upgrade/replacement when my n900 breaks	12:46
RobbieThe1st	Provided I can get a good OS on it	12:47
RobbieThe1st	Honestly, Maemo 5 on that'd be nice.	12:47
psycho_oreos	too bad OQO doesn't have phone capability unlike n900 :D	12:47
RobbieThe1st	It's got a sim, doesn't it? So it could probably be added via some custom firmware...	12:48
RobbieThe1st	what with that OSS GSM stack	12:48
korhojoa	oqos do voip, if nothing else	12:48
RobbieThe1st	'Course they do - any PC can	12:49
psycho_oreos	it has WWAN capability	12:50
ketas	someone said wondered if he should buy 10 n900's so it will last until he dies	12:50
ketas	s/said //	12:50
apt	ketas meant: someone wondered if he should buy 10 n900's so it will last until he dies	12:50
psycho_oreos	actually that's optional that WWAN	12:51
jaska	i wouldnt expect gsm&co to be here a lifetime	12:51
psycho_oreos	n900 can operate without a SIM and plus with USB hostmode, you could still attach a different sort of modem up :p	12:52
jaska	usb->somefuturebus->someevenmorefuturebus->wtfmodem :)	12:52
ketas	wtfmodem :)	12:53
korhojoa	hahaha	12:53
flailingmonkey	wtfmodem!!!!	12:53
ketas	one that makes wwtffffwwtfff sounds	12:53
jaska	wireless transfer functionality modem! (backronym!)	12:53
psycho_oreos	USB v3.0 has already been made but that has backward compatibility. I'm sure latter generations of USB should more or less also incorporate the same basic feature as the original USB v1.1	12:53
korhojoa	h-e-n, enable usb to light peak converter	12:53
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flailingmonkey	that's old, usb to quantum-entanglement-modem	12:55
ketas	quantum field transceiver	12:55
flailingmonkey	a real wtfmodem	12:55
psycho_oreos	and whomever decides to buy 10 n900 will soon find out what a waste of money :) hopefully	12:56
ketas	i wonder if ballmer blowed elop or what	12:56
RobbieThe1st	Loads of money!	12:57
jonwil	Even if nothing ever changes, the software on the N900 is still up there as some of the best phone software I have ever used	12:57
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RobbieThe1st	Plus, Elop obviously believes in Microsoft	12:57
dm8tbr	btw: I'd vote for 'Wireless Technology (from the) Future'	12:57
jonwil	and with the Community SSU, its going to get even better I hope	12:57
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psycho_oreos	its not like there won't be any more linux phones out there :) it just means that there will be a bit of a wait	12:58
ketas	i hope there's light in the end of the tunnel	12:58
psycho_oreos	plenty have been slain in the past	12:59
jonwil	I think there are too many vested interests against a linux phone for it to become mainstream or succeed	13:00
jonwil	Carriers dont like linux phones because of their openness	13:00
MohammadAG	sigh, can't get artist view working :/	13:00
psycho_oreos	though android on the other hand with only linux kernel to prove its very small origins to linux itself seems to be selling like hot dogs.. I think the issue is that there are entities whom expect too much from a different sort of community in mind	13:02
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psycho_oreos	s/origins/ties/	13:03
apt	psycho_oreos meant: though android on the other hand with only linux kernel to prove its very small ties to linux itself seems to be selling like hot dogs.. I think the issue is that there are entities whom expect too much from a different sort of community in mind	13:03
rzr	how much is n900 now ?	13:03
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Jartza	430e in finland at least :)	13:03
* alterego starts drafting a hardware requirements specification.		13:04
psycho_oreos	are you also going to fund it? :p	13:04
rzr	i am wondering how many unsold unit can remain ...	13:04
rzr	and about ophono will intel keep it ?	13:05
haltdef	so guys, any ideas what would cause the n900 to randomly swap left and right audio channels? it's really starting to irritate me :P	13:05
rzr	ofono	13:06
alterego	Heh	13:06
otwieracz	I have problem with my maemo in n810 - I can't install bigger apps beucase of not enough free space in / - can I move some files to internal 2GB card?	13:06
rzr	otwieracz: sure	13:06
rzr	otwieracz: use ln -fs :)	13:06
rzr	otwieracz: i had a script for that	13:07
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psycho_oreos	haltdef, could be plenty, ranging from poor cable, to poor audio connectivity and maybe even the packages you've installed	13:08
otwieracz	rzr: I was thinking about whole /usr - but I heard that maemo won't boot if /usr isn't at rootfs.	13:08
rzr	not /use	13:08
rzr	not /usr , du /home 1st	13:09
haltdef	it happens with different earphones, randomly flips them, gives me a heart attack when it does .. only pckage I can think of is headphone daemon	13:09
rzr	then /var/	13:09
psycho_oreos	and I probably wouldn't use ln -s on those directories, if anything I'd do binding mounts, but heck I don't even have N810, only N900	13:09
otwieracz	home and var summary takes about 60megs.	13:10
otwieracz	80*	13:10
psycho_oreos	haltdef, it could be the jack that might be playing up, what about bluetooth headphones/headsets?	13:10
DocScrutinizer	jaska: 2G -> 3G -> LTE -> YouNeverLiveAsLong	13:10
otwieracz	usr 227MB...	13:10
haltdef	only pair I have aren't noise cancelling and sound awful :P	13:10
haltdef	everything's fine when I'm actively trying to fix it ofc	13:10
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psycho_oreos	define actively fixing	13:11
haltdef	trying to make it happen, googling, asking you guys	13:11
haltdef	I have no idea what's going on :P	13:11
psycho_oreos	no tinkering with the audio jack in the process? like twisting the head of the jack whilst its plugged into the device?	13:12
DocScrutinizer	jaska: we got 2G since ~20 years now, and I can't see it vanishing any time soon	13:12
psycho_oreos	s/twisting/turning/	13:12
apt	psycho_oreos meant: no tinkering with the audio jack in the process? like turning the head of the jack whilst its plugged into the device?	13:12
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haltdef	nope	13:13
haltdef	it'll switch them when the device isn't being touched	13:13
ketas	how this can change channels?	13:13
ketas	the plug	13:13
otwieracz	rzr: maybe some dirs from /usr?	13:13
psycho_oreos	and the only pair that you have which doesn't have noise cancelling and sounding awful is wired or wireless (bluetooth)?	13:13
DocScrutinizer	jaska: 3G is here since some few years and will live on for long time	13:13
haltdef	I haven't tried bluetooth yet, might be worth a try	13:14
psycho_oreos	I'd give that a try if you do happen to have bluetooth headphone/headset with of course the usual speakers covering both left and right ear.. not those stupid one sided based headsets	13:15
psycho_oreos	if it does it there, then its a software issue, otherwise it might be a hardware issue	13:15
haltdef	yea I have a2dp ones	13:15
rzr	Jartza: yea 400 EUR in france too	13:15
DocScrutinizer	jaska: after 3G we get LTE which is "Long Term Evolution", meant to be even longer perspective, and afaik has 3G compatibility as inherent feature	13:15
* ketas imagines two one ear headsets paired to phone		13:16
DocScrutinizer	haltdef: oh, your weird R/L issue again?	13:18
haltdef	still	13:18
haltdef	n900 has been misbehaving a lot recently, random hangs, battery draining in standby .. considering it's just a phone and mp3 player now (got a viliv n5, pocketable win7) it's starting to upset me heh	13:18
DocScrutinizer	given the insanely complex software side of maemo audio that will be a hard one to track down	13:19
psycho_oreos	it might even be linked to hardware faults	13:20
psycho_oreos	s/faults/faults or defects/	13:20
apt	psycho_oreos meant: it might even be linked to hardware faults or defects	13:20
haltdef	mm	13:20
haltdef	don't fancy going back to my xperia x1 if so :P	13:21
DocScrutinizer	on ALSA I'd suggest to plug in a type-file-plugin someway down the audio stream, close to "DAC" aka audio card, and see if the recorded file also has the switches, which would mean it's a mere sw issue	13:21
DocScrutinizer	there are odds it actually is a I2S interface getting out of sync, which easily could cause L/R swap	13:22
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DocScrutinizer	or simply "somebody" swapping channels in didital or analog in codec chip	13:23
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DocScrutinizer	scratch the I2S note, AIC34xx is hooked up to CPU via MCBSP2 and I don't think that can swap channels as easily as I2S	13:27
otwieracz	rzr: O moved /var and /home to /media/mmc2, created symlinks /home → /media/mmc2/home and /var → /media/mmc2/home and it reboots whole time :(	13:27
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otwieracz	I can do something with reboot loop?	13:30
rzr	otwieracz: i would ln some specifict subdirs not the parents one	13:30
rzr	otwieracz: use flasher	13:30
jaska	doc: not sure how long people will live.. but i was thinking at 2050-2060 timeline	13:30
otwieracz	„flasher”, what do you mean?	13:30
ketas	you fucked it	13:30
otwieracz	ketas: I know :(	13:31
rzr	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=869791#post869791	13:31
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DocScrutinizer	I'm waiting for my coffee to take effect, so just a suggestion: (haltdef) we might check if AIC34xx registers can get read and dumped by I2Cget/I2Cdump, so we could track down when something fishy is going on with audio mixer setup causing this L/R swap	13:33
haltdef	I have no idea what that means :\|	13:34
otwieracz	rzr: So, i must reflash it?	13:35
DocScrutinizer	AIC34 is the mixer aka audiocard/ADC chip. It has a friggin lot of registers to to do all sorts of fancy things. It is hooked to CPU via I2C bus for control. You might be able to read out the registers using i2cdump tool	13:35
haltdef	so get a dump from that when the swap happens	13:36
flailingmonkey	night	13:36
DocScrutinizer	yes	13:36
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DocScrutinizer	and compare to when no swap is active	13:37
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DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: HELL!! :-( Didn't we tell you EXACTLY that, just 12h ago?! DIDN'T WE??!	13:39
DocScrutinizer	ust in case you forgot	13:40
DocScrutinizer	~optification	13:40
apt	from memory, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3	13:40
otwieracz	DocScrutinizer: You tell about /usr.	13:41
rzr	otwieracz: u'll have too	13:41
rzr	otwieracz: but u can save files before	13:41
rzr	otwieracz: but you already move /home	13:41
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otwieracz	Yes.	13:43
otwieracz	/dev/mmcblk0p1 shouldn't be destroyed?	13:43
DocScrutinizer	fair enough, sorry I forgot to mention /var	13:43
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rzr	anyway i'll give u a list of FILES to be ln'ed	13:46
rzr	it's safer that linking dirs	13:46
DocScrutinizer	rzr: how's that safer?	13:46
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: I suggest you read the few links mentioned in ~optification, and keep in mind Nokia never gave a F... about FHS	13:48
otwieracz	FHS?	13:48
DocScrutinizer	then you'll understand a lot better what can be done, what and why can't	13:48
rzr	because if some process tried to access some file in that dir and if it unmounted it wont find it	13:48
rzr	mount --bind could be an option too	13:48
rzr	otwieracz: next time check how big is /home	13:49
DocScrutinizer	that's what I suggested	13:49
otwieracz	rzr: about 40MB.	13:49
rzr	u can save some space in :	13:49
rzr	MyDocs/.documents	13:49
rzr	MyDocs/.images	13:49
rzr	MyDocs/.sounds	13:49
rzr	/home/user/MyDocs/.sounds/Moby-In_My_Heart.mp3	13:49
rzr	too	13:49
rzr	and other pdf files	13:50
otwieracz	Hmm - maybe other way – I can't install apps on mmcblk0p1?	13:50
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rzr	otwieracz: fat32	13:51
DocScrutinizer	mkfs.ext3 ftw	13:51
otwieracz	I have ext3.	13:52
DocScrutinizer	rzr: you are aware he's on diablo/N810?	13:52
rzr	do i am	13:52
rzr	so i am	13:52
DocScrutinizer	fine :-D	13:52
otwieracz	I will be right back – dinner.	13:53
otwieracz	And ROM is downloading…	13:53
MohammadAG	I miss that song, it reminds me of the N95 :\|	13:53
DocScrutinizer	I miss ~1500 records, reminds me of times when I was younger	13:54
MohammadAG	lol	13:58
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DocScrutinizer	lol? not funny	14:04
rzr	just live in the past like we're doing w/ our n8x0	14:05
rzr	i wish i can install amigaos in it	14:05
DocScrutinizer	workbench you mean?	14:05
rzr	yes same stuff	14:05
Trizt	feels like we all will keep on living in the glorious past with the new deal and the end of Nokia	14:06
otwieracz	OK, let's flash	14:06
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Trizt	rzr; ain't there a UAE for the 8x0?	14:06
rzr	Trizt: if there is a future , nokia will have to follow it , we wont follow nokia blindly	14:07
DocScrutinizer	Let's Dance	14:07
rzr	Trizt: i think i read some posts mention about it	14:07
Trizt	I have it for my n900 and installed the kickstart rom I had, just haven't taken the time to setup workbench yet	14:08
otwieracz	Hah, It's alive!	14:08
otwieracz	:-)	14:08
rzr	i dont feel arrow keys can replace the big black joystick i had on my a500	14:08
Trizt	rzr; should be possible to make some hack and use a joystick	14:08
rzr	Trizt: i guess u have all you need for	14:08
rzr	Trizt: and plug an external floppy disk :)	14:09
Trizt	rzr; yeah :)	14:09
rzr	Trizt: i miss this sound too	14:09
DocScrutinizer	rzr: that's what h-e-n is for :-P	14:09
Trizt	rzr; the WB I have a backup of has a bunch of PowerPC binaries too, so need to "wash" them out first	14:09
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otwieracz	Whatever – what about installing software in internal flash?	14:10
rzr	Trizt: maybe u can reuse those AIAB images	14:10
DocScrutinizer	otwieracz: should work	14:10
otwieracz	How?	14:11
DocScrutinizer	like on every other linux/unix	14:11
rzr	i would hack something using /opt	14:11
jonwil	I have a problem, on the N900 chess app, on the start screen, there are dropdown lists to select player 1 and opponent. The dropdown arrow for these dropdown lists is corrupt.	14:11
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rzr	and use symlinks	14:11
jonwil	Yet for every other app with the same dropdown list, its correct	14:11
jonwil	ideas anyone?	14:11
Trizt	rzr; don't know, but I really want to use the programs I had like AmIrc (still haven't seen any as good which uses GUI) and my dopus5...	14:12
DocScrutinizer	rzr: for sure the simplest nobrainer. That's why Nokia used that path :-D	14:12
otwieracz	DocScrutinizer: I can tell application manager where to install apps?	14:12
DocScrutinizer	nope	14:12
DocScrutinizer	but there's mv, and ln	14:12
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otwieracz	:(	14:12
jonwil	bah, why is this chess app screwing up :(	14:13
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: found .h?	14:13
jonwil	found .h for what?	14:14
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DocScrutinizer	yeah that's my question :-)	14:14
DocScrutinizer	[2011-02-13 03:00:34] <jonwil> I found the ISI headers I wanted in the QT SDK download	14:14
jonwil	Yeah, I did, I found header files for the cell modem	14:15
jonwil	i.e. pn_location_isi.h and friends	14:15
jonwil	the location header definatly matches the N900	14:15
DocScrutinizer	\o/	14:15
jonwil	they appear to be what was in the cellmo-headers and cellmo-icpr82-headers	14:16
jonwil	that were in the repos	14:16
jonwil	and then removed	14:16
DocScrutinizer	WUT??	14:16
jonwil	I think they were removed because they contain various internal information	14:16
jonwil	like internal intranet URLs	14:16
jonwil	and email addresses	14:16
jonwil	and changelog entries	14:16
DocScrutinizer	LOL	14:16
jonwil	and things	14:16
jonwil	but they are definatly of value	14:16
jonwil	and I intend to use them	14:16
DocScrutinizer	WTF!!! FAILEWALE Nokia	14:16
jonwil	for my reverse engineering anyway	14:16
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DocScrutinizer	jonwil: could you post me these files / URL / howto?	14:18
jonwil	http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/e920da1a-5b18-42df-82c3-907413e525fb/Nokia_Qt_SDK.html	14:19
jonwil	Thats the download I am using	14:19
jonwil	the one I installed rather	14:20
jonwil	with the .h files	14:20
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MohammadAG	mohammad@mohammad-i5laptop:~/QtSDK$ find -name pn_location_isi.h	14:20
MohammadAG	./Maemo/4.6.2/sysroots/fremantle-arm-sysroot-20.2010.36-2-slim/usr/include/ISI/icpr82/pn_location_isi.h	14:21
MohammadAG	lol	14:21
jonwil	bah, cant seem to solve this chess glitching :(	14:24
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: UMMM windows??? :-o	14:24
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jonwil	that SDK has options for windows and linux	14:24
DocScrutinizer	nm	14:25
DocScrutinizer	found it	14:25
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Great - still looking for CBS voulenteers in places where they send CBs? Or did you work it out.	14:25
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jonwil	Still want someone to run my test thingo for CBS	14:25
jonwil	bah, stupid chess app	14:25
DocScrutinizer	.run WTF?!	14:25
jonwil	tried everything except a reflash to fix my chess app and no go :(	14:26
jonwil	the glitching	14:26
FIQ\|n900	jonwil: i checked it up	14:26
FIQ\|n900	the arrows is glitchy here too	14:26
jonwil	checked what up?	14:26
SpeedEvil	I will offer free nails, for anyone helping jonwils CBS efforts. (collect from my floorboards)	14:27
jonwil	ok, so it might be a bug in the chess app	14:27
jonwil	I posted to maemo-developer with details of my CBS thing	14:27
LjL	what do you say, Jabber with gateways, or telepathy-haze, to use say MSN on OS2008?	14:27
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DocScrutinizer	downloading 25MB of foobar.run --- what THE HELL am I going to do with this?	14:27
jonwil	hmm, the chess app is open-source so I could try and fix the glitch	14:27
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: Oh - you responded to my comments on maemo-devel - I was simply referring to stuff like you're doing, and hostmode.	14:27
SpeedEvil	jonwil: And the bits of maemo that were closed and undocumented, but that released meego code has somewhat documented.	14:28
jonwil	like which bits?	14:28
jonwil	You mean like ofono	14:28
SpeedEvil	yes	14:28
jonwil	vs closed telephony stack	14:29
FIQ\|n900	hrm, anyone knows some good site to upload a file >1GB for downloading?	14:29
SpeedEvil	Bittorrent.	14:29
FIQ\|n900	yeah, though about that	14:29
DocScrutinizer	CBS? I guess you mean SMS-CB	14:29
SpeedEvil	Is it likely to be a popular file?	14:29
jonwil	yes, SMS-CB	14:29
FIQ\|n900	but i don't think the person who will UL it would like it	14:29
FIQ\|n900	SpeedEvil: no	14:29
FIQ\|n900	just for me and a friend	14:29
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FIQ\|n900	he uploads, i download	14:30
SpeedEvil	ftp	14:30
SpeedEvil	Or rsync between you	14:30
FIQ\|n900	could work	14:30
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SpeedEvil	Or ...	14:30
FIQ\|n900	...we are both on windows :P	14:30
SpeedEvil	Share your disk drive to the internet, then have him copy the file there.	14:30
FIQ\|n900	hrm	14:31
DocScrutinizer	hahaha	14:31
SpeedEvil	FIQ\|n900: seriously - you have windows FTP daemons.	14:31
SpeedEvil	Or even DCC the file.	14:31
FIQ\|n900	yeah, FTP could work, as i said	14:32
jonwil	if I could only get this damn wireshark isi plugin to work properly on my gentoo box, I could examine this packet dump I made with tcpdump	14:32
jonwil	containing at least one confirmed Cell Broadcast SMS (confirmed via dbus-monitor)	14:32
FIQ\|n900	but i tried to setup ftp on my machine (for own use) some time ago w/o luck	14:32
FIQ\|n900	worked fine locally, but trying to connect remotely, just the login worked, then some error i was unable to fix occured	14:33
dos1	DocScrutinizer: looks like it's statically compiled graphical installer (that .run file) :P	14:33
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DocScrutinizer51	WTF?!	14:33
Smith	Guys, what IRC client you use on your n900	14:34
FIQ\|n900	xchat	14:34
SpeedEvil	Smith: xchat	14:34
FIQ\|n900	and irssi is available	14:34
FIQ\|n900	if you prefer it	14:34
otwieracz	ssh + shell + irssi	14:34
DocScrutinizer51	those IDIOTS offer binaries to install things??	14:34
Smith	Thx	14:34
dos1	DocScrutinizer51: Qt4 based, but not themed to systsem... it reminds me Windows ;o	14:34
Smith	I use qutim now	14:34
SpeedEvil	FIQ\| scp?	14:34
FIQ\|n900	as said	14:34
FIQ\|n900	windows	14:34
FIQ\|n900	so no ssh (well, not easily at least)	14:35
DocScrutinizer51	I WANT A TGZ!	14:35
dos1	both with graphics, and with type of installation (binary)	14:35
dos1	DocScrutinizer51: did you try to download that ~500MB file?	14:35
dos1	maybe that's tgz	14:35
dos1	(that one without "(online)" ;))	14:35
DocScrutinizer51	what friggin 500MB	14:35
SpeedEvil	FIQ: wander over to ##windows, and ask how to transfer files between two machines on the internet	14:35
FIQ\|n900	hrm, sounds like a good idea :p	14:36
FIQ\|n900	since most people in here uses linux	14:36
BCMM	i haven't read the scrollback, but is the n900 involved at all? the SMB server in extras(-something) is pretty good, imho	14:37
BCMM	kinda want it for my desktop, actually, since it's so much easier than samba for the basic insecure file-serving setup	14:37
BCMM	(and there's nothing wrong with that; you just don't share anything that you wouldn't put on your HTTP server)	14:37
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DocScrutinizer	dos1: LINK	14:39
dos1	DocScrutinizer51: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/e920da1a-5b18-42df-82c3-907413e525fb/Nokia_Qt_SDK.html	14:40
dos1	s/51//	14:40
apt	dos1 meant: DocScrutinizer: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/e920da1a-5b18-42df-82c3-907413e525fb/Nokia_Qt_SDK.html	14:40
dos1	;]	14:40
dos1	DocScrutinizer: on the right side there is "Download version for"	14:40
dos1	oh	14:41
dos1	that's also run file	14:41
dos1	:D	14:41
DocScrutinizer	yeah!! >:-( and selecting linux32 gives me that 25MB.run bullshit	14:41
DocScrutinizer	~lart Nokia	14:41
* apt gets a hotmal account and SPAMs Nokia		14:41
DocScrutinizer	not good enough!	14:41
DocScrutinizer	retry!	14:42
DocScrutinizer	~lart Nokia	14:42
* apt gives Nokia an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending Nokia to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple		14:42
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DocScrutinizer	better	14:42
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DocScrutinizer	IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS IDIOTS	14:43
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Pillum	hey	14:45
Pillum	i wanted to free up my root space	14:45
Pillum	so i deleted some locale files	14:45
DocScrutinizer	please could somebody tar up that shit an up to RS?!	14:45
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: ^^^?	14:46
Pillum	but i messed up my system	14:46
Pillum	now i only see placeholder strings	14:46
DocScrutinizer	too bad	14:46
Pillum	how can i reinstall the locales?	14:46
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DocScrutinizer	reflash	14:46
DocScrutinizer	or simply copy over from the disk image you made for sure, prior to such massive tweaks	14:47
Pillum	is there a simple command for it?	14:47
Pillum	lol unfortunately no	14:47
DocScrutinizer	~flash	14:47
apt	[flashing] http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	14:47
DocScrutinizer	it's just one command line, starting with >>flasher...	14:48
LjL	wish the keys of the N810's keyboard weren't so damned hard to press	14:48
DocScrutinizer	sorry, I'm in a grumpy mood. Maybe somebody else has better advice	14:48
Pillum	personal thing or upset because of elop? :D	14:49
DocScrutinizer	nah, general Nokia idiocy	14:49
DocScrutinizer	offering a 500MB BINARY to install something	14:50
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ketas	eloploplop	14:50
DocScrutinizer	which I only need for some 10k of .h they thought was a brilliant idea to remove from their repositories	14:50
rzr	:)	14:50
Pillum	lol	14:51
Pillum	man this doesnt work without a pc	14:51
rzr	DocScrutinizer: fell lucky they did not provide a vm disk image	14:51
DocScrutinizer	LOL yeah	14:51
Pillum	anyone has a dump of his locale strings folder?	14:51
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DocScrutinizer	define "his locale strings folder"	14:52
rzr	Pillum: os ?	14:52
Pillum	yep	14:52
DocScrutinizer	rzr: fremantle I guess	14:53
Pillum	"/usr/share/locale"	14:53
Pillum	n900 pr1.3	14:53
DocScrutinizer	though unclear which version	14:53
DocScrutinizer	aah	14:53
DocScrutinizer	sorry, no 1.3 here	14:53
DocScrutinizer	otherwise a pleasure	14:53
Pillum	why no 1.3? is there a newer update or didnt you want to flash 1.3?	14:54
DocScrutinizer	#2	14:54
Pillum	lol	14:54
Pillum	whats the reason?	14:54
* FIQ\|n900 has pr1.3 but no dump of /usr/share/locale		14:54
DocScrutinizer	tar- czf /usr/share/locale ??	14:55
Pillum	would you please dump it and upload it anywhere?	14:55
Pillum	:)	14:55
DocScrutinizer	the syntax might need fixing	14:56
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Pillum	btw do you guys know any good irc cliengt for n900 besides irssi	14:56
Pillum	irssi isnt showing some names for me	14:56
DocScrutinizer	xchat	14:56
merlin1991	xchat :)	14:56
ketas	why?	14:56
ketas	Pillum: why?	14:56
FIQ\|n900	tar -cvf /usr/bin/locale i guess you meant	14:56
Jaffa	GAN900: Doing a few script tidy-ups so we can support multiple URLs against an article (and it shows the hostname). Do you still want an editor byline option against each one?	14:56
ketas	what do you mean irssi isn't showing some names	14:57
Pillum	isnt showing some names like my own name and other names if they use /me	14:57
Pillum	and the highligted names are in light yellow	14:57
Pillum	so i cant read them	14:58
pahartik	Pillum: Wrong theme	14:58
DocScrutinizer	FIQ\|n900: well, I suggested -z for --compress, --uncompress filter the archive through compress	14:58
DocScrutinizer	err	14:58
DocScrutinizer	FIQ\|n900: well, I suggested -z for -z, --gzip, --gunzip, --ungzip filter the archive through gzip	14:59
FIQ\|n900	-cvfr even	14:59
FIQ\|n900	hm	14:59
Pillum	xchat is even less readable for me	15:00
Pillum	dark background with dark font color	15:00
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DocScrutinizer	Pillum: that's easily(!) configurable	15:01
Pillum	i didnt find any settings for it :D	15:01
DocScrutinizer	duh, you didn't	15:02
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FIQ\|n900	settings preferences colors	15:02
FIQ\|n900	np	15:02
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pahartik	Pillum: Edit "~/.irssi/default.theme"	15:03
DocScrutinizer	menu -> settings -> Preferences "[colors]"	15:03
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javispedro	haha	15:04
javispedro	ACCESS is on the pdf you sent me yesterday about that LiMO platform	15:04
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: ???	15:04
DocScrutinizer	moo javispedro	15:04
javispedro	ACCESS, current owners of BeOS, makers of the cancelled-before shipping "Access Linux Platform" which ... used Gtk+!	15:05
Pillum	so, does anyone upload the locale folder	15:05
javispedro	moo DocScrutinizer	15:05
javispedro	et all	15:05
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: can you help out Pillum ? he needs /usr/share/locale of 1.3	15:06
javispedro	it's copyrighted..	15:06
DocScrutinizer	meh	15:06
Jaffa	Pillum: Get it from the SDK?	15:07
Pillum	how?	15:08
javispedro	seems I also deleted anything other than esES	15:08
DocScrutinizer	simple, download and install ~5GB	15:08
Pillum	lol xD	15:08
javispedro	either way I was going to get a list of packages that made that folder up, but saw that is stupid: all of the packages are named *-l10n-<lang> ;)	15:08
javispedro	for ex skype's es_ES: "skype-ui-l10n-eses"	15:09
javispedro	so reinstalling those should help.	15:09
DocScrutinizer	Pillum: see what I meant with "friggin idiots are publishing 500+MB binaries for installing"?	15:09
Pillum	yeah i see	15:10
Pillum	i want meego so bad now	15:10
psycho_oreos	javispedro, curiously, why is locale copyrighted?	15:12
psycho_oreos	they have il0n packages under extras-devel which adds extra entities iinm under locale	15:12
javispedro	"they"?	15:12
* DocScrutinizer desparately googles and scans torrents for a file like ~/QtSDK.tgz		15:12
javispedro	not nokia.	15:12
* psycho_oreos points to zh-{CN,HK,TW} packages, as well as Greek, etc		15:13
DocScrutinizer	or even /Maemo/4.6.2/sysroots/fremantle-arm-sysroot-20.2010.36-2-slim/usr/include/ISI/icpr82/pn_location_isi.h.*	15:13
DocScrutinizer	BURP	15:14
GNUtoo\|laptop	btw about battery, there are calibration stuff in /dev/mtd1	15:14
javispedro	lol	15:14
RST38h	heya javispedro	15:14
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: AU SECOURS!	15:14
GNUtoo\|laptop	is /dev/mtd1 meaning decoded or just the format?	15:14
javispedro	RST38h: saw the LiMO PDF?	15:15
dos1	DocScrutinizer: i'll upload it when it finishes downloading here :P	15:15
dos1	DocScrutinizer: you can also ask mickeyl to do that :D	15:15
DocScrutinizer	dos1: yo da man!	15:15
RST38h	javispedro: Yes, have been drolling over it yesterday	15:15
RST38h	javispedro: That is Samsung though, not LiMo in general	15:15
javispedro	RST38h: it seems to be the remains of the access linux platform	15:15
RST38h	javispedro: With Rasterman working on it	15:15
javispedro	yeah, merged with EFL (but still very much Gtk+ centric...)	15:15
DocScrutinizer	dos1: so I gather I don't need to inform Mickey about jonwil's great finding	15:16
dos1	DocScrutinizer: yup ;) he is already amazed and excited: D	15:16
DocScrutinizer	:-D	15:16
javispedro	RST38h: don't the later slides example remind you of something?	15:16
RST38h	javispedro: they can be remains of bin Laden's own Akbar Linux platform, I do not give a shit as long as these guys deliver	15:16
otwieracz	Is there any easy way to create custom keymap for n810?	15:16
javispedro	RST38h: (hint: PilotMain ;) )	15:16
RST38h	javispedro: They started the effort around the time Maemo5 was made public	15:16
javispedro	RST38h: ACCESS is the current owner of both the old PalmOS and also BeOS	15:17
RST38h	javispedro: Ah you mean the state saving stuff... It is optional, and there is just a bunch of ways to implement it	15:17
javispedro	to me, it this really ships, I'm sold.	15:17
javispedro	However, I was already sold on the Emblaze	15:18
javispedro	and it mostly never happened.	15:18
javispedro	so the precedents are not good.	15:18
RST38h	javispedro: Well let us wait and see	15:18
RST38h	javispedro: A lot of Samsung stuff never happens. Their S60 handsets (the first wave) never happened.	15:19
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javispedro	(the Emblaze was a never-released ACCESS Linux Platform handheld, for the ignorant)	15:19
GNUtoo\|laptop	jonwil, THANKS A LOT!!!!!! (for finding the headers)	15:19
RST38h	javispedro: They are really different entities, releasing this stuff. Can't compare.	15:19
javispedro	RST38h: dunno, the platform looks pretty much the same to me.	15:20
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Pillum	ah crap	15:21
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: I'd assign the title "hero of the day" to you another time, for another mega brilliant finding - alas topic is crowded right now	15:23
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RST38h	Fujitsu unveils world's first MeeGo netbook, world barely notices	15:29
DocScrutinizer	to whom it may concern: ancient N900 ISI headers found by brilliant RE hacker jonwil during archaeological research. Experts say it's a giant step ahead to free OS on N900 BB5 based phone	15:29
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Pillum	wat is this ISI header about?	15:29
DocScrutinizer	talking to the modem	15:29
jonwil	These are the headers you need if you want to talk to the cell modem	15:29
Pillum	ah cool	15:30
RST38h	Pillum: It is written in ancient egyptian and lists hardware registers!	15:30
Pillum	lol	15:31
Pillum	jonwil: where did youfind the headers?	15:32
jonwil	In the Nokia QT SDK	15:32
ketas	can n900 finally be 100% open source?	15:32
jonwil	nope, its nowhere near 100% even with MeeGo	15:32
jonwil	GPU is still closed	15:32
jonwil	as is BME	15:32
jonwil	and some other important bits	15:33
ketas	umm what that bme meaned, again	15:33
DocScrutinizer	~bme	15:33
apt	i guess bme is http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME	15:33
FIQ\|n900	infiltrate nokia, take the source and flee!	15:33
DocScrutinizer	I'm hoping for a frustrated Nokia employee to do this for us	15:33
FIQ\|n900	even some MS guy managed to infiltrate it!	15:34
Pillum	infiltrate nokia, kidnap elop, profit	15:34
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RST38h	How do you profit from Elop? Even Microsoft lost money on Elop	15:34
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DocScrutinizer	RST38h: BZZZ wrong! that's what they told you	15:34
eichi	someone tried maemo5 n900 with f-spot? i thought, it detects the DCIM folder defaults structure. but maybe, not the subfolders of this?! someone has an idea	15:35
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: however the question remains valid	15:36
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DocScrutinizer	RST38h: An Elop in the house causes trouble and cost money	15:36
DocScrutinizer	and don't think anybody will pay for him to get him back, now that mission accomplished	15:37
Pillum	i really need the locales :(	15:37
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RST38h	Doc: Who knows, maybe he will conduct a merger with Microsoft, and every single Nokia investor will get his share of the payola	15:38
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RST38h	Doc: Hell, poor disenchanted Texrat will be able to hang on a golden cord!	15:39
RST38h	Doc: After all, Nokia does not exist to make you Linux handsets, it exists to make investors money, whatever the method	15:40
BCMM	i'm somewhat surprised about the MS shares thing - is there no legal conflict of interests with him making a deal with MS?	15:41
BCMM	(i mean, with the microsoft shares he holds)	15:41
RST38h	BCMM: Have to be a corporate ethics lawyer to determine that	15:41
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: what they did so far is the maximum without awakening EU control instances	15:41
RST38h	BCMM: So, you are asking wrong people	15:41
DocScrutinizer	there will be no merger	15:41
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RST38h	Doc: Which is also ok with me: will provide entertainment during long, boring work days	15:42
EdLin	they don't need a merger, elop is busy replacing nokia executives with microsoft employees and firing everyone lower than that on the foodchain.	15:43
DocScrutinizer	yup	15:43
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DocScrutinizer	the hidden takeover already half done	15:43
Pillum	who has pr1.3 installed?	15:43
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG has	15:44
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Pillum	MohammadAG: are you there?	15:44
RST38h	Dunno, I think this is unnecessary fear and loathing	15:44
SpeedEvil	IMO - employing very rich people that don't actually need to worry about their paycheck is a bad idea generally.	15:44
SpeedEvil	At least at a managment level.	15:44
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SpeedEvil	They don't give a shit about performance bonuses, or ...	15:44
SpeedEvil	They're in it to make themselves look good.	15:44
SpeedEvil	Which is no the same as making the company look good.	15:45
RST38h	Rather than continue weeping, kicking Finnish corpse, why not start looking at alternatives and how Maemo experience can be brought to them, for cheap?	15:45
EdLin	RST38h: what, you seriously think they're going to make meego devices now? We'll be lucky if they make one of them.	15:45
RST38h	EdLin: I do not think. I analyze. Lemmings "think".	15:45
Lantizia	Hey I'm not going to add to the anti-nokia hysteria which I'm sure has gripped here for days now... but I am curious if maemo (not meego) will continue without nokia support and perhaps device-neutral in it's support... maybe even incorporated in to debian mobile.	15:45
EdLin	RST38h: for making a mobile phone, you need factories, workers, millions of dollars. Got a plan?	15:45
Pillum	rofl thread at tmo "pornhub.com cant play videos"	15:45
Pillum	reminds me of the guy who wanted a sex app	15:45
RST38h	EdLin: Yes. It starts with not making a mobile phone.	15:45
EdLin	ok then, mobile device.	15:46
RST38h	Plenty of these around. Many with Linux base platforms too.	15:46
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RST38h	The UI you are using on your N900 is after all a bunch of apps, with some backends.	15:46
EdLin	on my n810	15:46
EdLin	:)	15:46
EdLin	though my hd2 runs meego	15:47
Lantizia	Basically I'd love to rip the Nokia tag off my N900, see it as raw and decent hardware... and know Maemo will continue (as a debian initiative) for years to come for it and other mobile devices... how likely is that?	15:47
RST38h	So, the main question would be how to implement the bare minimum of these apps and backends and run them on an arbitrary Linux base.	15:47
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, the copy of that QtSDK.tgz is the same as the one hosted here or different? http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/e920da1a-5b18-42df-82c3-907413e525fb/Nokia_Qt_SDK.html	15:47
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: I note that there are still people developing for the openmoko devices.	15:48
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RST38h	Lantizia: it is not.	15:48
DocScrutinizer	psycho_oreos: where on that URL did you find a tgz?	15:48
Lantizia	SpeedEvil, sure but OpenMoko still exists in a basic form	15:48
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: The n900 sold several orders of magnitude more. If compelling open hardware does not come out.	15:48
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: No, it doesn't.	15:48
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: The company basically died with a large pile of unsold phones.	15:48
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, none, I guess it isn't :) just trying to find the header file via google and found a pastebin link which detailed that URL	15:48
* Jaffa would love a smaller, faster version of the N900 running a bug fixed and less power hungry version of Maemo 5.		15:48
lardman	X-Fade: ping	15:49
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: n900 sold _lots_ more phones. And will have a development community for some years.	15:49
Lantizia	RST38h, so you think Meego is dead and Maemo 6 is not going to be brought back?	15:49
EdLin	my n810 still has the occasional new software for it.	15:49
* Jaffa wonders about a mini-group going optimisation crazy in the CSSU		15:49
RST38h	Lantizia: dunno	15:49
Jaffa	~CSSU	15:49
psycho_oreos	meego isn't dead, meego on nokia might be	15:49
FIQ\|n900	~ssu	15:50
apt	methinks ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU	15:50
DocScrutinizer	duh	15:50
Lantizia	SpeedEvil, right but I don't want a development community that's just for one phone... it has a better chance of lasting MUCH longer if it was like android... device neutral.	15:50
Jaffa	psycho_oreos: MeeGo isn't dead yet, but it won't have long to survive unless another major consumer electronics manufacturer gets onboard in a big way...	15:50
RST38h	Jaffa: It is totally possible to implement Maemo5-like apps in QtQuick, on top of the same current Meego or maybe Android	15:50
EdLin	psycho_oreos: yeah, meego is going to live on at intel probably, they say they're planning to bring it to real mobiles - automobiles.	15:50
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RST38h	Jaffa: As longas you can compile Qt there	15:50
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: please teach infobot/apt about CSSU	15:50
Jaffa	Done	15:50
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, guess I'll be interested in a copy of that :) wonder if dos1 has already finished uploading	15:50
Jaffa	~CSSU	15:50
apt	it has been said that cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU	15:50
DocScrutinizer	thnx	15:51
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: For it to be device neutral, there need to be devices for it to be neutral over.	15:51
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: And there basically aren't.	15:51
RST38h	Jaffa: It will not have all the backend stuff that comes with Maemo,but so what	15:51
psycho_oreos	Jaffa, though it has Intel and potentially some interest elsewhere.. one was also notably from fujitsu	15:51
Lantizia	SpeedEvil, sure any ideas what is a good thing to target?	15:51
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: At least not over phones.	15:51
Pillum	SpeedEvil: do you have pr1 3 installed?	15:51
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: Tehre are no good things to target.	15:51
Jaffa	psycho_oreos: How many devices do Intel manufacture and sell a year?	15:51
Jaffa	psycho_oreos: One netbook does not make MeeGo a core plank of their strategy like it was for Nokia	15:51
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psycho_oreos	EdLin, yeah was telling that to Lantizia, well somewhat	15:52
SpeedEvil	Lantizia: There are no phones that you don't have to root (phones that you have to root means that they may go away next fw upgrade)	15:52
Lantizia	I was never interested in MeeGo... my interest has always lied in a ubuntu and/or debian initiative for a debian-based mobile orientated distro for 1 or more devices	15:52
Lantizia	And Maemo has the most talent to help lead that	15:52
psycho_oreos	Jaffa, no it doesn't but its too early to decide whether or not will meego die. I'm sure given time with the project being on schedule, it may get adopted elsewhere	15:52
EdLin	SpeedEvil: you don't have to root webos phones, fwiw.	15:53
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Pillum	SpeedEvil: Lantizia psycho_oreos EdLin: do you have pr1 3 installed?	15:53
EdLin	Pillum: on my n810? no. ;-)	15:54
SpeedEvil	EdLin: Ok - there are some other phones - but none as I understand it with open 3D and other drivers.	15:54
psycho_oreos	Pillum, yes, and if you're asking about locales, I heard it was copyrighted, not really willing to risk sending a copy	15:54
Lantizia	I don't wanna see this a Nokia N900 with two dead OS's lol... but rather an OMAP3 based embedded device with lots of OS choices including a decent and regularly updated debian-based one... will rip the Nokia tag off :P	15:54
Pillum	lol	15:54
Lantizia	or melt it off - whatever	15:54
EdLin	SpeedEvil: webos uses SDL for 3d, and even can run x11 sdl because it has a standard glibc and other linux frameworks android doesn't.	15:54
SpeedEvil	EdLin: AIUI, no accel support. I may e wrong.	15:55
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EdLin	SpeedEvil: probably right, I haven't kept up with webos x11 development after I sold my pre because I needed a world phone.	15:55
Pillum	;(	15:55
dos1	psycho_oreos: http://dos.openmoko.pl/icpr82.tar.gz	15:56
psycho_oreos	DocScrutinizer, fyi: http://pastebin.com/9Jes55Tg <-- it seems that maybe relevant	15:56
psycho_oreos	dos1, o.O thanks	15:56
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Lantizia	OK... lets say _none of this happened_ what was going to become of Maemo even if we did have a MeeGo Nokia phone... was a Maemo 6 still on the cards?	15:57
Arkenoi	Actually Nokia has enough resources to make any its phone completely open (replace or buy out any component for which the manufacturer is not willing to release public specs peaceful way) and it would be almost unnoticeable expense compared to overall mobile phones budget. It is just not willing to.	15:57
EdLin	Lantizia: no, why are you asking?	15:58
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Lantizia	EdLin, well now we know we are likely to loose Nokia support, is that likely to be re-evaluated?	15:58
Arkenoi	So all "we cannot do that, we do not own it" is just bullshit	15:58
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Juozapas	5	15:59
Arkenoi	they kept weening this way since GEOS days, though they could buy GEOS out completely for a change	15:59
EdLin	Lantizia: sure, we could make a new phone os for the n900. They tried doing that with mer on the n810 to update it to have the latest maemo functionality, didn't work out all that well what with so much of the hardware still being closed.	15:59
DocScrutinizer	there are some arcane .h in http://dos.openmoko.pl/icpr82.tar.gz	16:00
DocScrutinizer	for those who are interested	16:00
Jaffa	EdLin: And because a working OS is nothing without the apps.	16:00
Lantizia	EdLin, I don't see the need for a "new" os... why fork what is already started?	16:00
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Jaffa	The best bet for the N900 is for lots of people to get stuck into the Community SSU, so we can polish the edges and meet our usecases better.	16:00
Lantizia	Just let Maemo continue with a proper constitution, no company behind it.	16:00
EdLin	n900 (and n810, etc.) forever!	16:01
EdLin	at least, until our devices die.	16:01
Lantizia	I for one NEVER liked the idea of rpm's - sorry old debate I know, but that's just me.	16:01
Lantizia	EdLin, not if eventually other devices can be supported by Maemo	16:01
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Lantizia	Maemo certainly has more going for it than OpenMoko and ANGSTROM distro's	16:02
EdLin	Lantizia: if it's not a phone, nobody will buy it, and if it is a phone, better have big pockets brother.	16:02
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Lantizia	EdLin, I don't care about it being shipped on phones... I'm on about an alternative OS for your mobile device, Maemo could be the lead in that role.	16:02
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EdLin	Lantizia: I'd like maemo on my hd2, it'd beat a half-baked meego which is what I can do now of that nature.	16:03
Lantizia	And with dalvik apps on it, you wouldn't even need to worry about apps working on it from big publishers so much	16:03
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Lantizia	Basically what I'm saying is if Maemo is still "tied" in some way to Nokia, lets untie it... make it completely independant and community ran	16:04
EdLin	Lantizia: now you got me a bit interested, maemo on htc winmo/android devices sounds like an interesting project.	16:04
Lantizia	We can be the underdog OS for people who want a true GNU/Linux mobile OS	16:04
Pillum	so, if you dont want to sent locale, is there a way to build locale-archive by your own?	16:05
Lantizia	especially for debian/ubuntu lovers who don't want crappy ipkg packages	16:05
EdLin	Lantizia: incidentally, I'm not just saying that because I have an hd2, but because it's a good target for an alternative OS. Namely, there are dozens of htc devices with similar hardware, and secondly, there's a large community on XDA that support alternative OSs.	16:05
Lantizia	exactly!	16:05
Lantizia	this doesn't have to be the end, it can be the beginning!	16:05
EdLin	lol	16:05
Lantizia	:D	16:05
kerio	nah, it's the end	16:05
EdLin	I'm not going that far, but it could be interesting.	16:05
kerio	maemo does suck	16:06
Lantizia	kerio, like fuck it does	16:06
* EdLin kicks the troll		16:06
kerio	~busybox	16:06
apt	i guess busybox is the swiss army knife of embedded linux. It combines tiny versions of many common UNIX utilities into a single small executable. It provides replacements for most of the utilities you usually find in GNU fileutils, shellutils, etc. See http://www.busybox.net/.	16:06
kerio	~optification	16:06
apt	i guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3	16:06
kerio	and those are the two things that popped in my mind right now	16:06
Lantizia	kerio, nothing wrong with busybox on an embedded device...and optification is more of a need of the N900 hardware NOT maemo	16:07
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DocScrutinizer	kerio: you meant	16:07
DocScrutinizer	~messybox	16:07
apt	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	16:07
kerio	no, it's a stupid shit that was done because nobody at nokia could spend 20 minutes changing the boot scripts to only use /bin	16:07
kerio	like FHS specifies	16:07
kerio	it's most definetely not a need of the n900 hardware	16:08
kerio	there's also the stupid mydocs, the weird virtual directories that collect media files	16:08
kerio	pulseaudio	16:08
DocScrutinizer	Lantizia: BS, optification is an evil heritage from times where they didn't think about it	16:08
Lantizia	kerio, name me a more compliant GNU/Linux OS that has the popularity of Maemo for mobile devices?	16:08
Lantizia	I double *ucking dare you lol	16:08
kerio	i'm not required to	16:08
kerio	maemo sucks	16:08
kerio	i only use it because everything else sucks much more	16:08
kerio	but it does suck	16:08
Lantizia	loving your pessimism	16:09
kerio	why isn't the n900 using the hw codec for the media player again?	16:09
DocScrutinizer	Lantizia:that's pragmatism	16:09
DocScrutinizer	and I agree 100% with kerio	16:10
alterego	Meh, some of it is crap, a lot of it, platform wise, is pretty cool.	16:10
kerio	<3	16:10
kerio	alterego: oh of course	16:10
EdLin	Lantizia: see this? let's get maemo as another subforum here, under (or above ) meego http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=531	16:10
alterego	If we could have a maemo meego hybrid, I'd be well chuffed.	16:10
Lantizia	there are crap things with everything damn it!	16:10
Lantizia	doesn't mean everything sucks	16:10
kerio	yes. yes it does.	16:10
kerio	sturgeon's law doesn't make stuff exempt from sucking	16:11
DocScrutinizer	life sucks	16:11
* DocScrutinizer sucks		16:11
DocScrutinizer	cya :-D	16:11
Lantizia	EdLin, indeed I'd back that	16:11
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psycho_oreos	maemo in its stock form does suck, but once its been converted to run on other forms, those limitations won't be a huge factor. Have a look at nitdroid and meego for example. All in their own partitions. If the base structures were changed to make way for improvements, its not impossible	16:13
kerio	yeah, we'd need a new build though	16:13
kerio	MohammadAG: provide a build of maemo that doesn't suck plzkthx	16:13
Lantizia	true but this new build doesn't need to leave the Maemo name behind	16:14
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EdLin	is maemo (tm) nokia or someone else?	16:14
Lantizia	especially if Nokia are willing to part with the Maemo community anyway	16:14
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Jaffa	EdLin: Maemo is a Nokia trademark. However, they've given the ownership of maemo.org to the community and have blessed the Community SSU as a means of delivering core OS updates.	16:15
EdLin	Lantizia: they might not be comfortable with that, even if it's open source intelectual property, it is intelectual property.	16:15
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EdLin	Jaffa: that's cool, I like the idea of the community ssu.	16:15
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Jaffa	Already two closed bits have been replaced with open source, portrait-supported replacements. A good few bugs fixed and patches included to improve Modest's functionality.	16:16
kerio	it would also be good to have a decent swap algorithm and a base system that doesn't have half of the memory in swap at boot	16:16
Lantizia	Cool sounds like it's on its way then	16:16
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kerio	also, REMOVE THOSE FUCKING HANDS	16:17
Jaffa	kerio: Indeed. Some low-level and framework optimisations would be cool	16:17
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Jaffa	kerio: Err, you can do that already...	16:17
kerio	no, not completely remove them	16:17
javispedro	not?	16:17
Jaffa	You want to half remove them?	16:17
kerio	no, i mean	16:17
kerio	you can put an empty video there	16:17
kerio	but it'll still try to load it	16:18
kerio	and so it'll still require FUCKING PULSEAUDIO	16:18
Jaffa	There's an ini file	16:18
kerio	at boot time	16:18
javispedro	I'm sure you can probably kill the event.d file	16:18
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Lantizia	http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00428.html	16:18
Jaffa	kerio: Oh, so now you're objecting to the design of Maemo using open source software for audio...?	16:18
Jaffa	kerio: Perhaps you could clarify your rants...	16:18
Lantizia	I rather think a Debian Mobile base would still be handy for a Maemo flavour, a Debian flavour, a Ubuntu flavour... but apps work on them all	16:18
kerio	Jaffa: one of the reasons we need /usr/ in the root partition is that the boot requires pulseaudio	16:19
kerio	because of the hands	16:19
kerio	also in general i object to the design of Maemo using pulseaudio for audio	16:20
Jaffa	kerio: What would you use instead? Taking into account all the routing stuff needed for A2DP, speakers, headphones & call speaker?	16:21
kerio	Jaffa: alsa	16:21
Lantizia	pulseaudio is fine	16:21
Lantizia	and it already uses alsa too	16:21
kerio	the n900 takes more cpu for pulseaudio than for mafw-decoder	16:22
kerio	*than	16:22
kerio	it makes no sense	16:22
Jaffa	kerio: And you've got an ALSA package which does the same and takes less CPU?	16:22
kerio	http://alsa.opensrc.org/Dmix	16:22
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kerio	so... yeah	16:23
javispedro	so... no, mixing wasn't even in Jaffa's requeriment list =)	16:23
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Jaffa	kerio: An API compatible, feature-complete ALSA replacement of PulseAudio for the CSSU would be great.	16:25
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* javispedro partially disagrees that changing something that deeply embedded would be great for a CSSU		16:25
Jaffa	javispedro: Well, I think my requirement of feature-complete and API compatible would rule it out	16:26
RST38h	Same here	16:26
Lantizia	eBay have free listing today... so considering packing my N900 in for Android	16:26
RST38h	YOu do not want to break the system, just fix the broken parts	16:26
EdLin	Lantizia: I thought you were mr. optimistic?	16:26
javispedro	Jaffa: this is can of worms I do not want to open :(	16:26
Jaffa	Lantizia: Weren't you just talking about new OSes and community development?	16:26
Lantizia	Sure I was... only if I know it's going to happen	16:26
Jaffa	javispedro: RST38h: Agreed. But if I'm living with my N900 for ages to come I'd like it's battery to be a bit better.	16:27
Lantizia	Otherwise I'll trade Nokia for Google	16:27
Jaffa	javispedro: RST38h: I'm sure some low-level devs would enjoy doing some profiling and fixing ;-)	16:27
Pillum	can someone please send me the output of 'locale -a'	16:27
dos1	hmm	16:27
dos1	how it came that i didn't know about community SSU? :o	16:27
RST38h	[whispers] For Tentacled's sake, DON'T try to keep him from it.	16:27
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RST38h	Jaffa: Only if you know exact names of these devs	16:28
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RST38h	Jaffa: Because stuff being open does not mean somebody is willing to work on it	16:28
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MohammadAG	kerio, a build of maemo?	16:28
psycho_oreos	dos1, word is passing around more slowly than expected	16:29
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Pillum	can someone please send me the output of 'locale -a' please?	16:29
Jaffa	RST38h: You like your low level hacking, don't you? ;-p	16:29
kerio	MohammadAG: combined+vanilla, yeah	16:29
MohammadAG	Maemo cannot be built or destoryed, it can only change from one form to another, such as WP7	16:29
kerio	except with no pulseaudio, no closed bits and good partitioning	16:29
MohammadAG	:P	16:29
RST38h	Jaffa: I like being paid and being with my family	16:29
psycho_oreos	Pillum, http://pastebin.com/i8V05Wu7	16:29
MohammadAG	RST38h, you have a family?	16:30
MohammadAG	I always thought you were 19 or sth	16:30
Lantizia	Any ideas what would be the cleanest way of removing the Nokia tab-badge on the N900?	16:30
Jaffa	Lantizia: Dremel	16:30
RST38h	Jaffa: Also like working on my own stuff. Hacking random pieces of community code is much lower priority	16:30
Lantizia	Jaffa, you've done it?	16:30
Pillum	psycho_oreos: thank you very very much, sir ;)	16:30
* psycho_oreos thought of metal filer		16:30
RST38h	Mohammad: No, I live in a dungeon etc.!	16:30
Jaffa	Lantizia: No	16:30
Lantizia	psycho_oreos, ah but would it be smooth?	16:30
MohammadAG	RST38h, ah, that's believable	16:30
Pillum	lol	16:30
psycho_oreos	Pillum, its modified, there's ja_JP as well as zh_{CN,TW,HK} on top of the standard one	16:30
RST38h	Jaffa: Something is telling me this order of priorities is pretty standard	16:30
psycho_oreos	Lantizia, no, but then you can probably get wet sanding paper to smooth it	16:31
Jaffa	RST38h: <shrug/> People scratch their own itches.	16:31
psycho_oreos	Lantizia, and no that was just a wild guess, I've not done it before on mine	16:31
Pillum	psycho_oreos: but its from n900?	16:31
RST38h	Jaffa: Yes, but it should be a pretty sore itch	16:31
psycho_oreos	Pillum, from n900 with a few added locales	16:31
Jaffa	RST38h: Not having a phone which I can trust if I'm not near a power point/wifi all day is a pretty big itch.	16:32
RST38h	Jaffa: I.e. your qualitative analysis is ok, but quantative may be flawed :)	16:32
Lantizia	unfortunately I think the Nokia word-mark is taller than the tab outcrop itself... so you've still have a bit left behind	16:32
Pillum	ah ok thx	16:32
RST38h	Jaffa: It can be fixed by buying a different phone.	16:32
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Jaffa	RST38h: Which one? Bearing in mind all my other requirements...	16:33
Jaffa	(which you don't know, but could guess at)	16:33
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* alterego sighs, the annoying thing is I think the MS Nokia thing will be a success.		16:34
RST38h	Jaffa: I am currently considering the Streak	16:34
alterego	Big lose for the FOSS world	16:35
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EdLin	RST38h: the streak is pretty bad, actually.	16:35
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RST38h	alterego: Independently from how good it is for FOSS, it will most likely tank	16:35
EdLin	RST38h: tho it does have good battery life, and is big	16:35
MohammadAG	alterego, they'll succeed for the first time	16:35
MohammadAG	they	16:35
RST38h	alterego: Unless Americans miraculously start buying WP7 phones	16:35
MohammadAG	actually bbl	16:35
alterego	I think they may	16:35
RST38h	EdLin: So, why is it bad?	16:36
EdLin	RST38h: dell puts horrible OEM customizations on it, for one thing.	16:36
RST38h	alterego: With much friendlier and feature complete Android selling in the identical form factor? No way.	16:36
alterego	After reading the awful US blogs, the general opinion from normal users etc seem to actually welcome the move.	16:36
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RST38h	Blogs, as we know, do notconvert to sales:)	16:37
RST38h	EdLin: Apparently, their 2.2 Android update is much better	16:37
EdLin	alterego: someone on engadget noticed a disturbing amount of those comments were made by astroturfers with a microsoft network facebook login.	16:37
alterego	Hahah	16:38
EdLin	that's right, trolling for dollars.	16:38
jacekowski	astroturfers?	16:38
alterego	Oh, interesting. But then a lot of people use hotmail :P	16:38
EdLin	the latest corporate position	16:38
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alterego	I use hotmail ffs.	16:38
jacekowski	hotmail sucks	16:38
EdLin	jacekowski: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing	16:38
jacekowski	it's for microsoft wimps	16:38
dos1	yup, Windows Phone 7 is not known by normal users, so they can't really say anything about it :D	16:38
RST38h	alterego: Still, maybe Nokia and/or MS come up with some magic trick to sell their stuff, dunno	16:39
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dos1	some of them are even thinking that it's all about Windows Mobile	16:39
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ZogG	haha i have insider of some game porting company for mobiles =)	16:39
RST38h	alterego: Push it onto powerless corporate users, or tie it into desktop Windows	16:39
dos1	or even Windows 7, that one from PCs ;)	16:39
RST38h	alterego: Or offer it for 1 cent with contracts	16:39
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* javispedro notes smartphone pricing is becoming agressive as of lately		16:40
RST38h	javis: too many virtually identical models, it has become a commodity	16:40
Jaffa	Price is the only differentiator.	16:41
RST38h	See WiinMo phones of 5 years ago, replace WinMo with Android, multiply sales by 100, and you get what we have now	16:41
RST38h	Many many relatively cheap, identical, mediocre handsets	16:41
EdLin	you can get an n900 new for $350 in the us, cheap for an unlocked unsubsidized smartphone. Only thing cheaper is some midrange android phones with worse hardware like the lg optimus one.	16:41
javispedro	RST38h: Android is the only mostly responsible for it; previously a sub$100 "phone" with crappy Symbian-clone (aka Nokla) or WM hand't a change. Now one with Android does	16:41
javispedro	*change	16:42
javispedro	*chance :(	16:42
RST38h	That Finn with his pants-pissing remark was rude but on target	16:42
BCMM	chance?	16:42
RST38h	javispedro: Nokia is also making many cheap S60-based handsets	16:42
javispedro	yeah, but I think that's effect (they're doing that as of lately), not cause	16:43
RST38h	maybe both...	16:45
javispedro	at this point my opinion is like alterego's, they won't die. but they will never see the same market volume they see these days.	16:48
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RST38h	for a company of this size, dying actually requires some effort :)	16:49
javispedro	the future in smartphones looks the same as the past. there will be a OS duopoly with one of them being Apple-like/1990'sPalm-like (OS-HW tied) and the other one being Android-like/1990'sWM-like	16:49
kerio	but nobody liked WM	16:49
jacekowski	4 years ago nokia was only company selling smartphones	16:49
jacekowski	now they are smallest player	16:50
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jacekowski	2000 years ago there was huge roman empire	16:50
jacekowski	now there is small meaningless country left	16:50
EdLin	jacekowski: we still eat spaghetti	16:51
jacekowski	then there was polish empire	16:52
GAN900	OMAP4 from LG.	16:52
jacekowski	same shit again	16:52
* GAN900 cries.		16:52
jacekowski	and later british empire	16:52
RST38h	jacekowski: I am sorry, who told you they are the smallest player?	16:52
jacekowski	same shit again	16:52
jacekowski	RST38h: facts	16:52
RST38h	GAN: Kneel before your new Korean overlords	16:52
jacekowski	RST38h: they sold less symbian phones in q4 than iphones/androids	16:53
Jaffa	GAN900: ?	16:53
Per_n900	The future of smartphones is probably that smartphones will be your only computer, and the ability to dock it to a monitor and keyboard/mouse, and with an interface that changes to fullblown desktop when docked, kind of like motorola atrix. Atleast, thats what I think :)	16:53
RST38h	GAN: Bring some gold too	16:53
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EdLin	Per_n900: the n900 has a video output too. ;-)	16:53
RST38h	Per: In the future, the smartphone will be intergal part of your gas mask	16:54
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EdLin	just add a bluetooth keyboard, and voila, instant open source atrix. without the locked bootloader.	16:54
RST38h	jacekowski: Do you know the difference between words "small", "smaller", and "smallest" in English?	16:54
kerio	the n900 needs hd out	16:54
RST38h	Should I explain?	16:54
EdLin	kerio: I knew someone would mention that. ;-(	16:55
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FIQ	liten mindre minst!	16:56
RST38h	Meanwhle: Pandora Files For IPO	16:56
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EdLin	RST38h: pandora is the biggest spyware in the Android market.	16:56
Per_n900	FIQ: exakt.	16:56
EdLin	RST38h: they put permissions up the wazoo for that one, and send all your data for who knows what.	16:56
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FIQ	uhm	16:57
FIQ	why is it there then?	16:57
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FIQ	(i.e. not removed)	16:57
FIQ	oh, ofc	16:57
FIQ	google loves sending of EVERYTHING	16:58
EdLin	FIQ: because google doesn't care, as long as they have done their duty and let the sheeple click on the "warning" just like an activex warning, and you know how effective those were.	16:58
FIQ	that's why	16:58
Jaffa	GAN900: Never had an LG phone, but if they can do a good, open, MeeGo experience in something like an N900 but better, with Qt, bring it on?	16:58
* javispedro has only two companies in mind at this point that could put out a Maemo-like experience..		16:59
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Jaffa	javispedro: ?	17:00
javispedro	not LG :)	17:00
Juozapas	name it	17:00
range	Yeah, but Samsung already has Bada and HP has WebOS :)	17:00
Jaffa	javispedro: Palm & Samsung spring to my mind. But Samsung's too successful with Android	17:00
javispedro	range: bingo =)	17:00
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javispedro	Jaffa: also bingo :)	17:00
Jaffa	WebOS looks very interesting.	17:01
range	But still rather closed.	17:01
Jaffa	I've started tentatively exploring whether or not our friends now at HP might be interested in offering Maemo devs a device programme	17:01
EdLin	range: what do you mean, webos offers a root prompt, which is more than you can say for an unhacked android phone.	17:01
range	That's my biggest issue with Nokias move: the 180° turning.	17:01
RST38h	Jaffa: Nice move	17:01
RST38h	Jaffa: If they will listen of course	17:02
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Jaffa	RST38h: Indeed.	17:02
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range	EdLin: Oh. Last Pre I tried to check out used 5 minutes to boot, so I lost interest :)	17:02
RST38h	Jaffa: also check out that SLP .pdf from yesterday	17:02
jacekowski	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ86A1O9OcM&feature=player_embedded	17:02
Jaffa	RST38h: I missed it	17:02
EdLin	range: yeah, I hope some of the hardware they're putting it on now will reduce that. 1.5GHz on the pre 3 will help that lots.	17:02
range	EdLin: I actually like the Veer's form factor (WebOS Shuffle) :)	17:03
Jaffa	TouchBook looks nice	17:03
Jaffa	TouchPad, rather	17:03
EdLin	range: too small, it needs an adaptor for both headphone and microusb!	17:03
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range	Adaptor probably means no sane headphone amp, which means blergh	17:04
dos11	what amount of free space on / is needed for CSSU?	17:04
range	EdLin: Other than that ...	17:04
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EdLin	range: well, if you never use the headphones, and use a touchstone all the time for charging... ;-)	17:05
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range	Need a sane qwert anyway, if possible. The Pre3 one's might work, I actually liked the one on my Treo 650	17:05
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EdLin	range: http://www.precentral.net/hands-on-hp-veer-s-ridiculous-headphone-adapter-and-clever-charging-plug	17:06
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Jaffa	dos11: 10MB or so?	17:06
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achipa	guys - it's small, if you care, you care, if not, not	17:06
EdLin	range: the pre 3 is supposed to be a good qwerty, biggest webos qwerty so-far.	17:06
RST38h	http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/02/11x02138hmen.jpg	17:06
dos1	Jaffa: i have 31MB and it complains that there is not enough space :(	17:06
achipa	it's like saying a swiss army knife is crappy because the tools are small...	17:06
EdLin	RST38h: intel's booth.	17:07
EdLin	RST38h: I'm sure they are embarassed.	17:07
RST38h	thank you, Cpt Obvious	17:07
Jaffa	dos1: Check the "Problems" tab under "Details" in Application Manager. See also http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Installation_FAQ	17:07
EdLin	RST38h: if you didn't want anyone commenting, don't post a link.	17:08
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FIQ	http://www.msqt.org/ is that site even real?	17:10
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EdLin	anyhow, I have to go for now. bbl	17:10
javispedro	no shit, it puts "intel" on the picture =9	17:10
FIQ	oh, it wasn't	17:12
FIQ	phew	17:12
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GeneralAntilles	Jaffa: up to you.	17:14
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa: LG is Android.	17:15
GeneralAntilles	So, no.	17:15
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Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: There're rumours LG's interested in MeeGo...	17:15
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GeneralAntilles	I'd bet that interest took a beating on Friday.	17:16
Jaffa	Indeed	17:16
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LjL	does anybody know of some free database of wifi geolocation data, that one could use on maemo with some hack to determine position?	17:19
LjL	i already know of wigle, was wondering about others	17:19
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range	FIQ: I wonder why it says "This is a satire, for the real Qt website go to qt.nokia.com." at the bottom :)	17:23
FIQ	yeah, didn't notice first :P	17:23
alterego	has there been any official announcement in regards to Qt yet?	17:28
javispedro	many	17:29
javispedro	see the official blog	17:29
javispedro	er... nokia conversations.	17:29
LjL	what does it mean to get "Rescuing software update. Please do not interrupt." on boot on N810? :\	17:31
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alterego	LjL: probably means the device died during the last update.	17:34
alterego	So it's trying to complete the process.	17:34
alterego	Haven't seen it personally.	17:34
trumee	javispedro, Preenv doesnt list in Fap?	17:35
javispedro	trumee: preenv is not in user/*	17:36
trumee	javispedro, so i need to apt-get it?	17:37
BCMM	LjL: i've had a similar message on the n900, after powering off while an application was installing	17:37
BCMM	i guess it detects an inconsistent state indicitive of an interrupted installation and cleans it up	17:37
BCMM	(it wasn't me, it was an incorrectly-attached mount that pushed the power button for me)	17:38
javispedro	trumee: yes	17:38
BCMM	it's actually a really neat mounting thing, with a tripod attachment thingy	17:38
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Commi	list	17:47
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LjL	why is geoclue not available for os2008 :(	17:54
LjL	it's there for 2007!	17:54
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lcuk	does anybody know how to do recursive grep, but restrict it to only a certain type of file?	18:18
lcuk	grep -r "something" .	18:18
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lcuk	is how its working now, but I would like to restrict that to just *.txt for instance	18:18
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lcuk	:D sorted, "--include=*.txt"	18:19
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otwieracz	What if I flash n810 with wrong device?	18:22
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Venemo_N900	otwieracz: ?	18:23
otwieracz	blah	18:23
otwieracz	wrong file	18:23
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otwieracz	I don't know what the hell, but my n810 is again in reboot-loop.	18:26
Venemo_N900	otwieracz: :(	18:26
otwieracz	I turned it off, then and and... loop.	18:27
Venemo_N900	otwieracz: reflash?	18:27
otwieracz	Only idea.	18:27
otwieracz	So sad that meego isn't usable.	18:28
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Venemo_N900	otwieracz: yet	18:28
otwieracz	This project is alive?	18:28
otwieracz	(meego for n810)	18:28
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timeless	otwieracz: pull the battery out	18:32
timeless	then pick an image you actually like and arrange to flash that	18:33
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Venemo_N900	X-Fade: ping	18:35
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_nicolai_	hey, someone knows what kind of widget,	18:46
_nicolai_	the brightness control plugin uses	18:46
_nicolai_	for setting the brightness level?	18:46
jonwil	bah, GCC is STILL compiling	18:49
jonwil	the joys of running Gentoo I suppose :P	18:49
Venemo_N900	_nicolai_: no idea, but you could see qwerty12's brightness applet	18:49
otwieracz	timeless: I have any other options than the newest diablo?	18:50
Venemo_N900	_nicolai_: that probably uses the same widget	18:50
kennae	how can I disable the light sensor so I can lock my brightness to one static level?	18:51
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kennae	I read about QWB widgets etc but isnt there easyer way	18:51
kennae	I dont have QWB and woudnt like to install it just for it	18:51
_nicolai_	Venemo_N900, good idea, ty.	18:51
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Venemo_N900	kennae: there is a topic on TMO about this	18:52
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otwieracz	http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810.php ← I can choose only from this?	18:55
timeless	otwieracz: you do, but i'd probably stick with that	18:56
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otwieracz	So, newest Diablo...	18:58
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trumee	jonwil, gentoo is awesome :)	19:14
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trumee	jonwil, i think luke-jr is running it on N900.	19:15
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kennae	got the custom brightness to work, impressive	19:28
kennae	thanks Venemo_N900	19:28
kennae	was easyer than I thought	19:28
Venemo_N900	kennae: you're welcome	19:28
luke-jr	otwieracz: Gentoo	19:30
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kennae	is there some kind of gallery for QBW widgets?	19:35
kennae	the thread is huge	19:35
Venemo_N900	kennae: no idea	19:37
kennae	well, I dont really need anything	19:37
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kennae	just bored at work :)	19:37
vi_	Nwork on a sunday?	19:38
vi_	tsk	19:38
kennae	all I use with my phone is terminal and microb	19:38
Venemo_N900	kennae: what's your work?	19:38
kennae	yeah, 12 hours night shift	19:38
vi_	you on irssi now?	19:38
kennae	ye	19:38
vi_	fukin badass	19:38
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: ping	19:38
kennae	Venemo_N900: I sit and browse web	19:39
vi_	i dont get pp. using xchat	19:39
vi_	ppl	19:39
kennae	eat stuff and watch movies	19:39
Venemo_N900	kennae: and you get paid for that?	19:39
kennae	been using irssi for 10 years	19:39
vi_	it rapes the screen space	19:39
kennae	Venemo_N900: yes, very good	19:39
kennae	:)	19:39
kennae	im a security guard at a factory gate	19:39
vi_	how do i direct a comment at a person with irrsi?	19:39
kennae	so I can pretty much use my time as I want	19:40
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kennae	nothing happens here	19:40
vi_	how do i direct a comment to a specific user	19:40
vi_	on irssi?	19:40
vi_	tell me kennae!	19:40
kennae	what do you mean by direct comment?	19:41
kennae	like query? or notice?	19:41
vi_	notice maybe	19:41
kennae	/notice nick blaablaa	19:41
vi_	where your nick is highlighted	19:41
kennae	you cant highlight others nick if they havent set highlight on for themselves	19:42
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vi_	like when ppl respond to my questions my nick is highlighted at the start of the response	19:42
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kennae	no magic in it, it does it automaticly if you have set highlight on	19:43
kerio	vi_: like this?	19:43
vi_	YES!	19:43
vi_	kerio	19:43
kennae	vi_: LIKE THIS?!	19:43
kerio	huh... write the first letters and push tab?	19:43
vi_	vi_: lolloo	19:44
kennae	haha	19:44
kennae	new to irssi? :)	19:44
vi_	kennae: woot	19:44
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vi_	kennae: eat this!	19:44
kennae	yes, it works	19:44
kennae	:)	19:44
vi_	nice one, thanks	19:44
jacekowski	have you heard latest intell announcment	19:44
jacekowski	ehh	19:44
jacekowski	announcement*	19:44
vi_	does it involve you being a disparaging dick?	19:44
jacekowski	intel will make meego smartphone	19:45
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vi_	will it be called n9?	19:45
kennae	would love phone thats 2mm thick, big screen, able to answer calls and use terminal	19:46
kennae	nothing else	19:46
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vi_	oops	19:51
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vi_	woot	19:53
vi_	so whos gonnae steal maemo source?	19:53
vi_	kennae: have you got n900 otterbox?	19:54
trumee	jacekowski, you are referring to the poster in MWC?	19:54
trumee	vi_, i have an otterbox.	19:54
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vi_	did you ever notice how sexy slim n900 becomes when you unbox it?	19:55
trumee	vi_, yes i did :)	19:55
kennae	vi_: no	19:55
kennae	whats otterbox	19:55
trumee	vi_, it looks fragile	19:55
vi_	otterbox is the best case you can get for n900	19:55
kennae	never used any boxes for it and its in a good condition	19:55
trumee	kennae, it is a plastic case	19:56
kennae	dont need one	19:56
vi_	with rubber inner layer	19:56
vi_	and really good screen protector	19:56
trumee	vi_, my only gripe is there is no car mount which can take otterbox	19:56
vi_	well some of us just ham fist the shit outta delicate gadgets and need tough armourlite cases for them!	19:57
vi_	surely somthing can accomodate its girth	19:57
vi_	look on fleabay	19:57
trumee	vi_, didnt find anything good. so i remove otterbox when i drive which is a pain	19:58
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trumee	guys, http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/13/live-from-an-evening-with-nokia-at-mwc-2011/?sort=newest&refresh=60	20:00
vi_	too right, getting the case of is harder than getting a blowjob from the pope	20:00
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vi_	trumee: still no mention of n9 though...	20:10
vi_	trumee: still no mention of n9 though...	20:10
trumee	what the hell does disruption mean.	20:10
trumee	why all the fart talk about disruption	20:11
trumee	vi_, No new hardware today, they say	20:12
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vi_	what a load of ass.	20:14
vi_	a three ass race more like	20:16
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mece	hello	20:19
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vi_	does that mean ovi is dead?	20:23
trumee	vi_, yes think so	20:24
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pupnik	i bet it costs $200k just to get the moulding done for a phone	20:24
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trumee	NICE!. "are you a trojan horse" somebody yelled at Flop	20:25
chx	i know, "I am not Trojan, I am Canadian"	20:27
RST38h	"But there's one more that's worth noting. For all of the unique elements that Nokia's contributing, Microsoft is contributing to Nokia substantial monetary value towards Nokia because we're contributing all of these things."	20:28
RST38h	WTF did he mean here? Considering that he has just said that Nokia is paying for WP7 licenses?	20:28
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RST38h	""When you look at all of the value that we're contributing, the value transferred to Nokia is measured in the Bs, not the Ms." That's billions, not millions, folks." <=== Is he speaking for Microsoft or Nokia?	20:29
chx	he says tranferred TO Nokia	20:29
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RST38h	chx: Then "we" are Microsoft? =)	20:29
RST38h	Is he working for Microsoft then?	20:30
chx	interesitng....	20:30
chx	need to go alas.	20:30
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vi_	dont go, the party justmstarted	20:32
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piggz	lol, someone just asked elop if he was a trojan horse at the mwc	20:33
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FIQ	hahah yeah	20:34
FIQ	saw that	20:34
GAN900	Yes, yes he is.	20:36
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kerio	how did he answer?	20:36
piggz	Someone just asked Elop if he we as Trojan Horse?A: No. But does understand perception. Conspiracy theory bye bye :)	20:37
piggz	Question: were you a Trojan horse? Board of directors reviewed and accepted the proposal #nokmsft	20:37
piggz	^ from twitter	20:37
RST38h	Just because he says he is not, does not mean he is not	20:37
FIQ	idd	20:38
vi_	norton pro: are you a virus?	20:38
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vi_	doomsday virus: (shifty eyes) um...no..?	20:39
piggz	maybe my skills wont be completely useless http://code.google.com/p/android-lighthouse/wiki/Compile	20:39
vi_	ffs	20:39
vi_	show me some ff	20:39
vi_	ffffff	20:39
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vi_	fffff'ing hardware nokia	20:39
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vi_	hello?	20:43
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RST38h	moo javispedro	20:45
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javispedro	moo	20:46
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vi_	what a shit offering at mwc	20:51
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vi_	he told us nothing	20:52
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vi_	just more ass about how he loves m$	20:52
vi_	does anyone think they will unveil this magical meego device this mwc?	20:52
Venemo	good evening	20:54
pupnik	vi take it to #meego-bar	20:54
Venemo	MohammadAG: ping	20:54
MohammadAG	pong	20:55
Trewas666	announcing a meego device right now would be somewhat surprising, but so was the whole sell-out to microsoft so who knows :)	20:55
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pupnik	the n900 just got better-looking	20:58
pupnik	but "The first MeeGo device that will ship this year will take advantage of the Qt framework"	20:59
MohammadAG	this year = december	20:59
vi_	take it to meego bay?	20:59
vi_	take this to meego bar!	20:59
vi_	(i am referring to my anus)	21:00
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vi_	MohammadAG: so what is the conscenus on a maemo meego hybrid?	21:01
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cehteh	every handheld device i buyed got toasted so far .. first the apple newton, now the n900 .. maybe i shall buy a WP7 phone just to enforce its fate :P	21:09
GAN900	Ah, Newton.	21:10
pupnik	lol	21:10
GAN900	That was a bit of genius right there.	21:10
cehteh	to early for its time :/	21:10
javispedro	cehteh: hey, I bought a m130 (then m68k handhelds got the axe), then a T\|X (then Palm went offline until the Pre thing), then a N810 =)	21:10
GAN900	Yeah	21:10
RST38h	Newton sucked. But Zoomer was really cool.	21:10
cehteh	and no frre os, no good linux conectivity so its rotting away	21:10
cehteh	newton was cool in many ways and still some concepts are way ahead of current smartphones	21:11
cehteh	global search, assistant ...	21:11
cehteh	the awesome gestures and clibboard interface	21:11
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cehteh	best (but not perfect) handwriting recognition so far (why this got never improved)	21:12
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Arkenoi	Seems that handwriting recognition is dead, people prefer virtual keyboards	21:13
FIQ	i prefer physical ones	21:14
cehteh	sometimes i do .. or hardware keyboads, but the notetaking and sketching app was cool	21:14
Arkenoi	sure, but if you are forced to screen input method..	21:14
FIQ	yeah, then i prefer touch-keyboard	21:14
FIQ	My old P1i had handwriting, but i didn't like it	21:15
Arkenoi	what i miss on n900 is ability to make combined text and sketch notes	21:15
jaska	then i throw the device away	21:15
FIQ	never did as i told	21:15
jaska	:D	21:15
FIQ	preferred the hardware one	21:15
RST38h	Maemo4 had pretty decent handwriting recognition in fact	21:15
cehteh	also speech recognittion .. 10 years ago a expected we will be 'there' someday .. but in fact its rather dead technology (it works but the support/killing app for it is lacking)	21:15
RST38h	as far as it goes of course	21:15
jaska	also it feels like it looks stupid to talk to a device	21:16
Venemo	RST38h: which was closed source	21:16
cehteh	RST38h: really? where?	21:16
cehteh	i never seen it (never had a n810)	21:16
RST38h	cehteh: They killed it inMaemo5	21:16
cehteh	duh	21:16
FIQ	"Can i phone {{Person}} please?" "Sure! starting a music app"	21:16
FIQ	^ something like that happened when I tried iPhones speech recognization one time	21:17
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FIQ	conclusion: it sucked	21:17
cehteh	yes .. i really expected this should be solved someday ...	21:18
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javispedro	RST38h: imho it was crappy, if you try to do continuous recognition you either do it pretty well (ms tablet) or don't and just do "block regonition" (palm)	21:18
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RST38h	javispedro: Maemo4 recognition worked relatively well for me, same as on Windows Tablet and much better than WinMo or Palm	21:18
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javispedro	well -- surprising	21:19
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* pahartik used to like PalmOS (up to version 4) input method		21:20
RST38h	I still didn't use it though, too many errors	21:20
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cehteh	btw is there any support gurantee for the n900/maemo about how long they will provide updates and leave the servers running? i dont expect that to be shut down any time soon but well, i dont think they will run/suppport it for years either	21:22
flailingmonkey	no guarantees	21:22
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cehteh	prolly i should mirror the repository on my server :P	21:23
cehteh	just in case	21:23
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FIQ	isn't maemo.org just semi-official?	21:24
FIQ	i.e. not hosted by Noki	21:24
FIQ	a	21:24
cehteh	who pays for the servers?	21:26
cehteh	(nokia)	21:26
MohammadAG	has Nokia announced the N9 yet?	21:27
cehteh	Registrant Name:Nokia Corporation	21:27
cehteh	MohammadAG: nah .. and i wont buy it, i'd rather boycott nokia	21:27
DocScrutinizer	there's definitely too much traffic in this chan - battery flat after 5h, awesome¡	21:27
cehteh	(i didnt planned to buy it anyways, i hope my n900 will last some more years)	21:27
MohammadAG	cehteh, clearly, we know it's not Nokia's fault	21:28
MohammadAG	it's its new CEO	21:28
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cehteh	MohammadAG: yes/no .. even before they wherent really committed to this all	21:28
cehteh	from the start on, it was more a toy product, they never hold their promisies about commitment to maemo/meego, look at ovi, ovi-maps and all other announcements	21:29
cehteh	plenty of direction changes, allways pissing someone new	21:30
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DocScrutinizer	FIQ: you suck ;-P Computers aren't used to hear a "please", nor a "can I...?"	21:30
javispedro	so it was a toy product, for two years it was marketed as a NOT toy product, but now it's bad to being a toy product	21:30
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: hey if you implement speech recognition with INTERCAL then you need that :)	21:30
DocScrutinizer	CALL {{NAME}}, SUCKER!!!	21:30
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DocScrutinizer	call sucker, Mr?	21:31
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norayr	hey people, anyone knows the difference between png shortcuts in Diablo and Fremantle?	21:32
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norayr	I am compiling my application (photographic light meter) now	21:32
FIQ	DocScrutinizer, well, it didn't answer like that eihter	21:32
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norayr	and 64x64 png shortcut is shown smaller than others on n810	21:33
FIQ	i told it to "Phone {{Person}}"	21:33
FIQ	to be exact	21:33
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nox-	moin	21:34
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tybollt	MohammadAG: N9 - the Windows 7 mobile \o/	21:38
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MohammadAG	well	21:39
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MohammadAG	they had a chance to fix their issues by announcing a MeeGo device	21:39
MohammadAG	this has to be by far, the worst year for Nokia	21:39
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flailingmonkey	apparently the meego device will not have hardware keyboard. the version with keyboard was "rejected by operators" for having too flimsy a keyboard hinge/slider	21:50
flailingmonkey	if only meego device is without hardware keyboard... LOL ridiculous	21:51
nox-	wtf	21:52
flailingmonkey	ahahaha	21:53
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flailingmonkey	Flop says the announcement was "well recieved" in some departments of Nokia "for example, our sales department is very excited"	21:54
Trewas	probably well received in the sense that they are one of the few department not being axed :P	21:54
flailingmonkey	"In markets like the United States -- both sales and development -- are excited because they see the way back into that market."	21:54
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flailingmonkey	yeah, but I expect that the middle management will make collaboration with US cell operators impossible. same will happen collaborating with M$	21:56
DocScrutinizer	flailingmonkey: >>citation needed<< the version with keyboard was "rejected by operators"	21:56
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frals	ofc sales are happy, guess is that they are still needed after symbian/meego is cut ;)	21:57
DocScrutinizer	frals: yeah, and need to sell less, to earn the wages for the colleafues set free	21:58
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flailingmonkey	its only from TechCrunch EU: http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/02/12/intel-kept-in-the-dark-over-nokia’s-meego-plans-operators-reject-first-device/	21:59
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flailingmonkey	they know that people will "understand" the Windows brand (even if its for Phone) vs. MeeGo, and no more talk about positives of open source. too much of a headache for sales drones	22:00
pupnik	the USA model should be destroyed	22:01
pupnik	in europe there is cell-phone freedom	22:01
flailingmonkey	middle management will be happy to hear the end of all that open source hoopla too	22:01
* RST38h got a feeling pupnik added "model" when editing that statement		22:01
pupnik	loll	22:02
flailingmonkey	I think Elop must be surrounded by lots of yes-yes people, and doesn't realize how much hate he has created for himself. not just sadness, real burning hate	22:02
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pupnik	Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: But it ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of flying is? Well, I suppose you do, since you already know what I'm about to say.	22:04
pupnik	River Tam: I do. But I like to hear you say it.	22:04
pupnik	Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Love. You can learn all the math in the 'Verse, but you take a boat in the air that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as a turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurtin' before she keels. Makes her a home.	22:05
pupnik	River Tam: Storm's getting worse.	22:05
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flailingmonkey	DocScrutinizer: a link to TechCrunch EU article about version with keyboard, http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/02/12/intel-kept-in-the-dark-over-nokia’s-meego-plans-operators-reject-first-device/	22:09
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tybollt	MohammadAG: I read (these are probably rumours) that they actually had Meego HW all ready and developed, and it was all about announcing and starting production when they were told to scrap it all .. again no idea if those were rumours or what	22:30
ab	as there is nobody to confirm, these are definitely rumours ;)	22:30
nox-	but yeah i wouldnt be surprised if those operators there would just be scapegoats	22:31
flailingmonkey	tybollt: the unconfirmed reports of canned HW that was ready for production have been floating around. it doesn't seem unlikely at this point	22:33
DocScrutinizer	flailingmonkey: thanks	22:34
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DocScrutinizer	tybollt: "all ready and developed" is a rather fuzzy term, when it comes to hw massproduction. It's quite obvious there have been working prototypes, yes. If those were ready for primetime aka mass production is a different topic	22:35
SpeedEvil	At around 12:20 on the day of the announcement, it was mentionedinthepressconference thatt ehre were several meego handset designs that are being retargeted for wp7	22:36
SpeedEvil	how complete these are wasn't mentioned.	22:36
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DocScrutinizer	Actually building a shiny looking prototype is rather simple and reasonably quick, just unbearable expensive	22:37
* cehteh expects that they only roll out a half baked meego device without any future and then sell it badly to later use that as argument that "people did not want meego" ..		22:37
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johnx	but not that expensive compared to Nokia's R&D budget	22:37
flailingmonkey	like those photoshopped "prototypes" shown off about a Nokia WP7 phone	22:38
johnx	flailingmonkey, from engadget?	22:38
SpeedEvil	The best of all possible worlds would be if the wp7 phones were all meegoable.	22:38
SpeedEvil	well - neglecting windows tax	22:38
pupnik	can i get a refund for the windows portion if i install meego?	22:38
johnx	SpeedEvil, hmmmm. Which basically means OMAP3 based with few hardware/firmware barriers put up between the user and 'root' access	22:39
flailingmonkey	johnx: after engadget showed it, it also showed up in today's little presentation made by Elop (Flop)	22:39
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Venemo	Jaffa: ping	22:39
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johnx	flailingmonkey, yeah, I thought by 'photoshopped' you were implying 'not real.' ;)	22:40
flailingmonkey	oh its not real, but only in the sense that it doesn't exist. just mocked up to distract people	22:41
cehteh	SpeedEvil: I'd agree why dont they just build good hardware and then leave the choice about the OS to the customer	22:41
cehteh	maybe even android ...	22:41
Venemo	why is it that the N900's modem consumes more power than it can draw from USB?	22:42
cehteh	no one says that they have to develop and support all this OS'es by themself, as long the specs are sufficiently free and drivers available	22:42
flailingmonkey	http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/13/nokia-hints-well-see-first-windows-phone-7-device-this-year/	22:42
pupnik	Elop is not stupid – he is 7th largest personal shareholder in MS,	22:42
cehteh	Venemo: because usb can only provide 500mA .. or 1.5A with charger conneced	22:42
Venemo	cehteh: and the modem consumes more?	22:43
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johnx	Venemo, not by itself, but you could get the phone into a state where it's using more power than it can get from USB	22:43
johnx	full brightness, max CPU clock, SD card access, cell modem TX at full power	22:44
cehteh	pupnik: well we may talk in a few years about it, but i see that it is either a dead horse OR nokia becomes a windows hardware company .. both is bad for its currentl customers, no matter about elop's assets	22:44
Jaffa	Venemo: pong	22:44
Venemo	Jaffa: "The Community SSU already contains rewrites of two closed source control panel applets with the added feature of portrait mode support." -> portrait mode support? where?	22:45
flailingmonkey	and bad for its current developers	22:45
cehteh	yeah .. well nokia pissed everyone ..	22:45
johnx	heh. Somehow it feels almost poetic to be considering buying a WP7 phone with the full intention of never booting it into WP7. Reminds me of running linux on whitebox Windows PCs from the '90s :)	22:45
cehteh	mostly its developers and community, which is really a shoot in the foot for them	22:45
Jaffa	Venemo: The "TV out" and "notification LED" applets both support portrait mode now.	22:45
Venemo	Jaffa: oh, that's nice	22:46
Jaffa	Venemo: A few more and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=832478 can be a reality	22:46
flailingmonkey	pupnik: he'd have been able to sell his MS shares, but once they started talking about that partnership he could no longer do so. he isn't allowed to buy/sell when he has inside knowledge that hasn't been announced to the public	22:46
johnx	cehteh, and they trade that for everyone developing for WP7. I suppose they consider that a fair trade. Otherwise they wouldn't have done it	22:46
cehteh	what about an open BME?	22:46
cehteh	who of the devs here will migrate to wp7, raise hands please ..	22:46
flailingmonkey	he'll get a big chunk of Nokia stock, so he will have to keep Nokia afloat for a while	22:46
Venemo	johnx: "considering buying a WP7 phone with the full intention of never booting it into WP7" -> no need to. there'll be better alternatives by then	22:47
Venemo	cehteh: I will migrate to MeeGo :P	22:47
johnx	cehteh, I think this channel tends to be linux fans, not nokia fans. These people will go where Linux is (maybe some to Android)	22:47
cehteh	for a consumer there might be not that big difference (while i still think smartphone consumers think before they buy and have reasons for their choice)	22:47
cehteh	but for a linux based developer community (unless you run a shop which already does ios apps or so) its very likely a no-go	22:48
pupnik	who else has a community	22:48
cehteh	android is not linux and not free (for a lot reasons)	22:48
johnx	Venemo, I know, but it seems so ... nostalgic in a way. "The more things change, the more they stay the same." That kind of thing	22:48
Jaffa	pupnik: WebOS has a bit of one	22:49
Venemo	johnx: :)	22:49
wmarone	well, it's Linux but not GNU/Linux	22:49
cehteh	i bet you could port dalvik to other kernels	22:49
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Venemo	cehteh: see 'alien dalvik'	22:49
cehteh	Venemo: isnt that still linux?	22:49
johnx	cehteh, "Android is not linux" -> That's why I didn't say it was ...	22:49
Venemo	cehteh: yes, but it doesn't need the android crap	22:49
Jaffa	johnx: Correct. I don't care about Nokia (apart from some of the people I've come to know), but I did care about the platform which met my usecases best :-/	22:49
cehteh	but really on android there is a linux kernel somewhere .. but there is no free choice of tools	22:49
Venemo	Jaffa: 100% agreed	22:50
Venemo	cehteh: yeah	22:50
cehteh	yes .. my first thought where also about the linux people i know and work there	22:50
BCMM	wmarone: it isn't even linux... it's an increasingly incompatible fork of the linux kernel	22:50
johnx	cehteh, kinda. but it's gonna be full of drivers that you can't really use with a normal distro	22:50
RST38h	and the reason for this discrepancy?	22:51
cehteh	when my n900 dies someday i consider the next 'free, open' phone no matter who produces it	22:51
Venemo	BCMM: 100% agreed	22:51
flailingmonkey	the really concerning issue is that Nokia's approach to open source will soon by like Microsoft's approach to open souce: an unfunny joke	22:51
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Venemo	flailingmonkey: :(	22:51
johnx	RST38h, errr? are you asking why people write crappy drivers?	22:52
cehteh	well and with the gta04 announed i bite in my ass .. never expected that it gets an upgrade path, thats kindof awesome .. even if its ugly as hell	22:52
pupnik	BCMM: increasingly? can't it be merged?	22:52
RST38h	johnx: Yes, I am asking if there is a specific reason to write stuff based on linux kernel but incompatible with linux base	22:52
wmarone	cehteh: gta04 is a non-starter if it's behind the times in terms of connectivity like the previous hardware was	22:52
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cehteh	iirc they got decent hardware now	22:53
wmarone	RST38h: control, obviously	22:53
cehteh	umts, faster cpu than the n900, dunno about ram	22:53
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RST38h	wmarone: what control?	22:53
admiral0	hi can anybody help me?	22:53
wmarone	RST38h: the control google has, to take it where they want to	22:53
cehteh	i dont have a gta02 so i didnt investigated it, but it looks quite cool by now	22:53
admiral0	i almost bricked my n900	22:53
wmarone	and to act unilaterally	22:53
RST38h	mhm	22:53
flailingmonkey	Venemo: but the middle management will be relieved. open source/development was way too uncomfortable for them =P	22:53
admiral0	installed nitdroid, but have a custom kernel	22:54
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admiral0	and have to edit multiboot file	22:54
norayr	hey people, and what about "maximize" button on n810? what it does? what it sends to the applications, because my application does not go fullscreen when I press that button	22:54
Venemo	flailingmonkey: yeah, although some people did understand it, like Ari Jaaksi	22:54
admiral0	where does multiboot search kernels?	22:54
johnx	RST38h, Getting stuff into mainline is too longterm of a goal for companies to be able to approach with rationality. So they right drivers that are quick hacks but are never of the quality required to get into mainline. They hack up anything in their path, not worrying about whether it breaks other drivers or doesn't work on different architecture	22:54
flailingmonkey	Venemo: and it seems they saw the writing on the wall. time for new Finnish phone company? :)	22:55
RST38h	johnx:this should fuck them up later in the development cycle though	22:55
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: do you know how much ram the gta04 will have?	22:55
RST38h	as maintenance costs become too high	22:55
Venemo	flailingmonkey: :)	22:55
johnx	RST38h, it does. that's probably part of why some phones don't get newer versions of android. It gets too expensive to forward port the drivers	22:55
johnx	anyways, off now :) cleaning ...	22:56
cehteh	well .. how about an actual kernel for the n900?	22:56
cehteh	zram will be awesome :P	22:56
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: I seem to recall they don't know yet. Depending on what they can get	22:58
cehteh	1GB would be extremely awesome .. but i dont really expect that	22:58
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dangergrrl	oh wow, this is an active channel :)	23:01
norayr	let me return to my n810 question :)	23:01
norayr	so I've prepared n810 port of my app	23:02
norayr	I was using it on n900 before	23:02
norayr	By default I have made 800x480 screen size, so on n810 right part of the app is not seen	23:02
norayr	And when I try to press the maximize-like button	23:03
norayr	which is first left on the top of the n810	23:03
norayr	it does not maximize, because I do not know what to do in order to maximize it	23:03
norayr	I mean which kind of signal it sends	23:03
dangergrrl	why do they ship the n900 with such a small filesystem for programs?	23:03
norayr	That was one question, and another one - my 64x64 png icon which worked well on Fremantle	23:04
Venemo	dangergrrl: you can resize the partitions if you wanna	23:04
dangergrrl	i know	23:04
dangergrrl	but it's a chore	23:04
norayr	looks small if compared with other icons in the application menu on n810	23:04
Jaffa	norayr: 48x48 for apps menu on Diablo	23:04
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norayr	Jaffa: thanks	23:05
dangergrrl	i actually bought it to be my main computer while travelling and camping and such	23:05
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bman	boo	23:05
dangergrrl	:)	23:05
DocScrutinizer	dangergrrl: see	23:05
Venemo	bman: boo to you too	23:05
DocScrutinizer	~optification	23:05
apt	i guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3	23:05
bman	howdy	23:06
DocScrutinizer	howdy bman	23:06
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bman	hows everything	23:06
dangergrrl	i'm kinda curious if anyone actually does development for the n900 on the n900 itself?	23:06
DocScrutinizer	yes, some do	23:07
bman	i did dev work on my n800 with my bluetooth keyboard	23:07
norayr	dangergrrl: I am	23:07
bman	but touchscreen and coding didnt go well	23:07
Venemo	dangergrrl: I do only testing with the play button in Qt Creator	23:07
norayr	dangergrrl: I am doing	23:07
cehteh	i consider that too, put the development tools in a chroot on the µSD	23:07
norayr	dangergrrl: actually I am compiling it, changing the code a little	23:07
norayr	most of the code I write and test on a desktop	23:07
cehteh	for small things and scripting language development that should be fairly sufficent	23:07
cehteh	kernel compiles prolly suck a bit :P	23:08
dangergrrl	and is nokia dropping linux as part of the microsoft deal?	23:08
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norayr	because maemo is basicly Linux, I can write portable code which will run on desktop as well	23:08
Venemo	dangergrrl: not entirely	23:08
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dangergrrl	i'm kinda disappointed that meego is not language neutral already	23:09
Venemo	dangergrrl: what makes you think it is	23:09
norayr	Jaffa: do you remember n810 Diablo left bar size? I mean the most easy solution is to shorten my application	23:09
Venemo	norayr: just use the layout manager	23:09
dangergrrl	maemo is language neutral, you can write gtk apps in any programming language	23:09
Venemo	dangergrrl: you can for meego too, as long as you have a compiler for it	23:10
dangergrrl	i'm an old systems programmer, i don't like c++ or java, i like c	23:11
Venemo	dangergrrl: so then program in C	23:11
dangergrrl	does qt even have c bindings?	23:11
norayr	dangergrrl: meego has GTK	23:11
Venemo	dangergrrl: not that I know of. but you can use Gtk too	23:11
norayr	dangergrrl: for sure	23:11
dangergrrl	oh, i thought they dropped gtk	23:11
Venemo	dangergrrl: not really	23:11
norayr	dangergrrl: no, if I search I can find a couple of proofs	23:12
wmarone	it's not part of the core build, but it can be installed	23:12
dangergrrl	oh, then i'm cool with it :)	23:12
Venemo	http://blogs.gnome.org/foundation/2010/10/13/gtkmeego-handset-integration-work-call-for-bids/ http://blogs.gnome.org/foundation/2011/01/17/gtk-meego-handset-bidders-selected/	23:12
Venemo	dangergrrl: ^	23:12
dangergrrl	can't afford a 32g microsd card right now though	23:12
dangergrrl	poor :(	23:13
Venemo	dangergrrl: you can install on eMMC	23:13
dangergrrl	i do want to try meego though	23:13
Venemo	dangergrrl: you can install it on N900's eMMC	23:13
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bman	pimpin the tor network today	23:15
bman	:)	23:15
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DocScrutinizer	16G uSD should suffice	23:24
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kerio	you mean µSD	23:26
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kerio	so... elop is the 8th largest individual M$ shareholder	23:37
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kerio	is anyone surprised?	23:37
dangergrrl	i dunno who elop is	23:39
nox-	i guess `ms puppet' fits	23:40
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kerio	puppets don't make a shitton of money for themselves	23:41
nox-	heh	23:41
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andre__	kerio: so... you believe something posted on a random website	23:46
andre__	is anyone surprised?	23:46
andre__	(oops, wrong copy and paste) ;-)	23:46
kerio	reading reddit titles is all i need	23:46
andre__	good luck with finding out the difference between fiction and reality then...	23:47
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MohammadAG	kthxbye lol andre__	23:47
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andre__	MohammadAG: sorry, way too much bullshit recently (IRC, Mail, interwebs)	23:49
MohammadAG	indeed	23:49
andre__	...reminds me of Naked Gun 1 when the fireworks shop explodes and the policeman in front tells the rubbernecks "Nothing to see, pass on!" ;-)	23:51
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Venemo	andre__: :)	23:52
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Venemo	andre__: how do you feel about friday's news?	23:52
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jacekowski	rubbernecks should die	23:53
jacekowski	esspecialy on motorways	23:53
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johnx	jacekowski, thanks to modern safety equipment in cars they tend to just crash and be the subject for other rubberneckers	23:54
andre__	Venemo: good question... https://identi.ca/notice/64258084 maybe :-P	23:54
Venemo	andre__: yeah, I agree with you	23:54
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andre__	personally I don't see how adapting to yet another platform fixes the internal organization structure problems that obviously hinder the "Time To Market" process	23:55
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Venemo	andre__: yeah, me neither	23:56
Venemo	andre__: conclusion: "Time To Market" didn't play a role in this decision	23:56
andre__	but I only studied Business, so I don't have to understand this</irony>	23:56
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Venemo	andre__: :)	23:57

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