IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-01-01

SpeedEvilIf we were to take away internet access from the stupid people, then the IPV4 address exhaustion problems would be fixed.00:00
SpeedEvils/stupid/stupid annoying/00:00
aptSpeedEvil meant: If we were to take away internet access from the stupid annoying people, then the IPV4 address exhaustion problems would be fixed.00:00
pupnikHappy New Year!  Check out an INCREDIBLE 4096-byte directX9 demo
ptlSpeedEvil: and that's it? there are no real, deep differences from ipv6 that make it much better to mobiles than ipv4?00:05
ptldon't say that, my world will crumble.00:05
SpeedEvilptl: As I understand it, yes, in principle there are features of IPV6 that if implemented widely over the whole internet would be useful for mobiles.00:06
SpeedEvilptl: But we're not there yet.00:06
ptldo you know at least a couple of these features?00:06
SpeedEvilSorry - not doing this now - going to eat chicken.00:07
Venemopupnik: nice vid.00:07
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Venemopupnik: happy new year to you too00:07
ptlhappy new year to you guys. Here we still have 4 hours to go. :)00:07
ptlSpeedEvil: good idea, will do that too.=00:07
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Venemoptl: google and wikipedia are your friends00:08
ptlI swear it, I've tried00:09
ptli am asking here as a last resource00:09
ptlWell, almost last resource. If I don't get the answer I'll delve into some long texts to see if I can find it out.00:10
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Venemoptl: it took 1 minute to find these00:10
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ptllemme check00:11
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BCMMVenemo: does that mean that one could be able to move between wlan and 3g?00:12
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VenemoBCMM: provided that you have ipv6 and support for this feautre in the 3g network and the wifi network, then in theory yes00:13
Venemohowever I dunno the details. I didn't know about this feaure 5 minutes ago :P00:13
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ptlVenemo: anyway, there are lots of differences that I knew of, but on this particular page the only thing quoted for mobile advantagens is a small advantage of mobile ipv6 over mobile ipv4:00:15
ptl"Unlike mobile IPv4, mobile IPv6 avoids triangular routing and is therefore as efficient as native IPv6. IPv6 routers may also support network mobility which allows entire subnets to move to a new router connection point without renumbering."00:15
ptlthanks for the reference. It helped.00:16
ptlI am starting to think that there is not really much more than this.00:16
BCMMpresumably, by "triangular routing", they mean that mobile ipv4 has everything going to the device go through a machine with a fixed network location?00:16
Venemowhat makes you think that the other points in the comparison are not advantageous to mobile use cases?00:16
BCMMthe issue of address space has become particularly relevant to mobiles00:18
BCMMsince mobile networks are the ISPs most likely to NAT their networks00:18
VenemoBCMM: agreed00:18
BCMMipv6 would remove that necessity00:18
VenemoBCMM: my comment was intended to ptl00:18
BCMMsome say it's a good thing, because you don't waste battery on people scanning your phone, but ipv6 also makes it impractical to scan random addresses00:19
Venemo[23:16] <ptl> I am starting to think that there is not really much more than this. ---> this00:19
BCMMhaving a botnet scan the entire ipv4 address space is feasible; this will never work with ipv600:19
ptlpoints: 'larger address space' - the most obvious. but I was asking to 'discount' it. 'multicast' - what is the specific advantage for mobiles? I can't see. 'stateless autoconfiguration' - this one might be a good point of discussion, but it would require special help by using a mobile ipv6 tunnel, isn't it?00:20
SpeedEvilBCMM: Never say never00:20
ptl'mandatory support for network layer security' - doesn't seem to be much advantageous to mobile phones.00:20
Venemoptl: so security is not important for phones. right.00:20
ptl'simplified process by routers' - might help on mobile ipv6, indirectly.00:20
ptlI didn't say that00:20
ptlI should have mentioned: 'specifically'00:21
BCMMSpeedEvil: by the time we have colonised enough planets to scratch the surface of the address space, we'll need a more delay-tolerant system that the current internet00:21
ptl'options extensibility' and 'jumbograms' - doesn't seem useful.00:21
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ptlLemme rephrase my question then:00:21
BCMMptl: having your own IP address will be advantageous00:21
BCMMfor a start, video chat will suddenly get much, much simpler00:22
ptlare there any features or architecture in ipv6 that can be said to specifically benefit mobile devices, and not so much regular devices like desktop computers and servers?00:22
ptlBCMM: but that falls into larger address space00:22
ptlyes, I agree00:22
Venemoptl: the answer to that is probably no00:22
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BCMMptl: so far, the address space issue is affecting mobiles worst of all00:24
ptlit stateless autoconfiguration used in mobile ipv6?00:24
BCMMthough if we carry on like this, NAT ISPs will become the norm00:24
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Venemowhat's wrong with NAT?00:26
ds3NAT doesn't allow for listeners unless specifically setup for it00:26
BCMMpractically, it breaks stuff and requires endless working around. philosophically, it makes the internet one-way like a TV00:27
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jacekowskiand who needs listeners00:27
BCMMthere are all sorts of reasons to listen to ports00:27
* lardman wonders what necroplayer is00:27
BCMMlike anything involving p2p communication00:27
ptlNot only that, NAT spoils ICMP and other protocols too.00:27
BCMMbouncing stuff off some server that is probably in a different country is OK for IM, but terrible for video chat00:28
BCMMalso, you might want to SSH to your phone for any number of reasons00:28
ds3UDP does not work reliably with NAT either :P00:29
Venemook, thx :)00:29
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ds3for many apps, NAT is required to snoop and be invasive00:30
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jacekowskinat on mobile phones is a must00:33
jacekowskiotherwise you would have all shit on internet sending you crap00:34
jacekowskiand your phone would never sleep00:34
SpeedEvilIn principle, some sort of authorisation would also work.00:36
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SpeedEvilSo someone could sign packets with a key you've given them, and tehy would be passed by the router00:37
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ds3my phone works fine w/o NAT00:38
jacekowskiit just eats battery like mad00:40
RST38hSpeed: that is called "ip addressing scheme" :)00:42
ShadowJKI don't get too much traffic from the internet usually00:43
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RST38hNot for your subnet -> you are not getting it00:43
ShadowJKOnly about twice a month someone tries bruteforce ssh00:43
New_n900_UserSo the TV-out is that supposed to "just work" when I plug the cables in? Or is there somepace I have to turn it on?00:43
RST38hShould work, but do set pal/ntsc00:43
New_n900_UserUS is NTSC right?00:43
RST38hHave you managed reflashing poor device?00:43
RST38hyes, US is NTSC00:43
New_n900_UserYes, just recently.00:43
New_n900_UserHmm, well TV out is not working.00:44
New_n900_UserAnd it also seems that sound is only coming from one headphone.00:44
RST38hwrong cable?00:44
New_n900_UserI'm beginning to be quite scared that there may be an issue with the headphone jack.00:45
New_n900_UserIt's the one that came with it...00:45
RST38huse the cable included with the phone00:45
New_n900_UserI know the iphone ones are not compatible.00:45
BCMMNew_n900_User: just in case, sure the pins are connected in the right order?00:45
BCMMNew_n900_User: i mean, the three plugs00:45
BCMMyeah, apple uses a basically identical connector, with the pins rearranged because they gotta be different00:46
New_n900_UserEven if they weren't I should at least get sound or video. I get nothing.00:46
ds3the TV out seems to want to see the 75ohm termination00:46
DocScrutinizer51New_n900_User: firmly insert the plug, make sure it's seated completely00:48
BCMMthere's a way to ask the phone what it thinks is in the AV port, isn't there?00:48
BCMMcan't remember it though00:49
BCMMsomething dbus or sysfs00:49
New_n900_UserI've done that, and even tried pulling it out a bit.00:50
New_n900_UserJust tried a different pair of headphones too and same issue with sound coming from only one ear.00:51
BCMMcat /sys/devices/platform/nokia-av/type00:51
BCMMoh; that really does sound like the port is dodgy00:52
johnxalso, if you insert the plug slow enough it's  possible to confuse the N900 about what got plugged in00:52
SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: Do you appen to have te AV lead - I forget what you said00:52
New_n900_UserAV lead?00:52
New_n900_UserI have the AV cables that came with it.00:52
SpeedEvildo you ave a suitable TV to plug it into?00:53
SpeedEvilOr audio system?00:53
New_n900_UserYes and yes.00:54
New_n900_UserJust unplugged my wii to plug it in.00:54
New_n900_UserAlso BCMM  did you mean for me to run that with the AV cables plugged in?00:54
SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: sorry - do you also get only one channel on the audio plug?00:55
SpeedEvilon the AV plug00:55
New_n900_UserActually I don't get any audio with the AV plug.00:58
New_n900_UserLet me fool around a bit more might be an issue with the tv sound system being set low somewhere.00:59
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New_n900_UserHmm, ok getting sound, can't tell if it's one channel or two.01:00
New_n900_UserI'd like to say one because that would be consistent with the headphones but...01:01
BugBlueGelukkig Nieuwjaar!01:01
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New_n900_UserOk, confirmed it's just the right side.01:01
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New_n900_User(with the AV plug into the TV)01:02
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SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: Ok - I'd go with a socket failure then.01:06
SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: I'd phone up nokia care in your country, and see what your position is01:06
New_n900_UserHmm, self fix or hope I have a warranty on it?01:06
ShadowJKI'd be pressing for DOA replacement when it's broken so soon (it might have been broken when you took it out of the box, right?)01:08
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New_n900_UserWell, yeah. But I bought it on ebay.01:12
ShadowJKoh :)01:12
jacekowskigive it back to seller01:13
ShadowJKThere's an imei checker on nokia care website somewhere :/01:13
jacekowskidid he mention that problem on auction01:13
New_n900_UserGrr, so I'm talking to an indian nokia rep who is convinced that the issue is the headset...01:15
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* Venemo clinks glasses with everyone01:22
johnxcheers :D01:22
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ShadowJKNew_n900_User, so you've tried with the original headset, you've tried with TV-out, and hey, if you have some regular headphones, try with those too01:23
ShadowJK3 different ones should be enough you'd think :/01:23
ShadowJKoriginal NOKIA headset, good to point out to those ppl :-)01:23
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New_n900_UserShadowJK, yep, they want to send me a new headset lol01:27
New_n900_UserAnd yeah, I've tried with regular headphones too.01:27
New_n900_UserThey don't seem to get that lol01:27
ShadowJKSo do the headphones work OK in your computer?01:28
New_n900_UserOn a plus side the n900 qualifies me for "preferential service" apparently.01:28
togglesyou prefer to be raped01:28
New_n900_UserShadowJK, haven't tried, but I'd assume so.01:29
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New_n900_Useryep, they work.01:30
New_n900_UserPretty good sound quality too.01:31
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MilhouseCommunity SSU now requires PC Suite to complete installation? What's that about - anyone know?01:33
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ShadowJKI guess I missed community ssu for n90001:34
pupnik_new year should be floating-point -- so we can do a wave of firecrackers east to west01:34
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MilhouseShadowJK: So far not sure what benefit it serves, all I've had so far are updates to the Community SSU (the most recent now unable to install without also installing PC Suite on a Windows PC)... I thought the Community SSU was supposed to provide updates for the apps.01:36
ShadowJKfor what apps01:36
MilhouseModest etc.01:36
MilhouseAt least, that's what I thought.01:37
ShadowJKI knew there was a N8x0 community ssu01:37
ShadowJKdidn't know there was a N900 one01:37
ShadowJKah, testing01:38
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MilhouseNeedless to say, I'll now pass on updating with the latest Community SSU package as it doesn't seem to be providing any actual benefits so far. Or maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick.01:39
MilhouseShadowJK: Well, that's the first reference I found using my Google-fu. It's not got high visibility, but I'm sure it was discussed on t.m.o somewhere01:40
MilhouseMore N900-specific SSU discussion here:
MilhouseBuggered if I'll be installing Nokia PC Suite to finish the package install though.01:44
radicFrohes neues Jahr / Happy new year >>
ShadowJKN900 asking for PC suite is usually a sign of conflicting packages01:48
MilhouseYeah, conflicts are all to do with Hildon01:48
MilhouseSummary for the package says "This Maemo update requires Nokia PC Suite on your PC for installation. Connect deive to PC via USB cable blah blah blah"01:49
MilhouseOn the "Problems" tab it lists the following packages as missing: hildon-home (>=0.3.71-2), hildon-desktop (>=1:2.2.142-4), hildon-status-menu (>=0.3.40-2)01:50
MilhousePresumably the Community SSU package is just badly configured?01:50
jacekowskiit's just hildon that requires packages that ssu uninstalls01:51
jacekowskibut it has to do it to work01:51
Milhouseso what's the solution?01:51
jacekowskistop using HAM01:51
jacekowskiit's slow crap01:51
Milhouseaha... try apt?01:51
Milhouseoh, totally agree with you there01:52
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MilhouseI normally use apt, but for ssu and system related updates tend to go the achingly slow HAM route01:52
ShadowJKapt isn't for normal users for sure, tends to blow stuff up01:53
Venemogoodbye guys :)01:53
Milhousei do hope the app manager in MeeGo will be orders of magnitude better than HAM...01:53
Milhousenight Venemo - happy new year.01:53
Venemothanks Milhouse, same to you too01:53
jacekowskiMilhouse: it won't01:53
VenemoMilhouse: try the "faster app manager", or use apt-get01:54
jacekowskiMilhouse: it will be based on even worse yum01:54
MilhouseVenemo: i have FAP installed also, but that's still quite slow :)01:54
Venemojacekowski: don't spread lies01:54
Milhousejacekowski: That's goint to be a disaster then01:54
aptMilhouse meant: jacekowski: That's going to be a disaster then01:54
VenemoMeeGo doesn't use yum01:54
MilhouseVenom: MeeGo uses Zypper01:54
VenemoI'm not 'venom', sorry01:54
jacekowskistill, it's crap01:55
Venemobut right, it uses zypper which is faster than yum01:55
Venemoanyway, byebye01:55
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MilhouseVenemo: Sorry :)01:55
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SpeedEvilhappy new year everyone.02:00
ptlFor you too. Although the new year will still take two hours to get there.02:01
MilhouseThe apt-get upgrade seemed to go well... I've not got myself updated hildon-home, hildon-desktop and hildon-status-menu... I presume these are courtesy of the Community SSU package that I was maligning. :) Rebooting now... I wonder if there's a changelog?02:01
ptlWe'll get a new year that has already been used02:01
ptlsecond-hand new year02:01
MilhouseHappy New Year everyone...02:01
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New_n900_UserOk, so they should be sending me a shipping label and I'll send back my phone.02:26
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New_n900_UserAnd get it repaired under warranty :)02:26
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New_n900_UserNow does anyone know how to sync gmail contacts? I followed the directions that appear in like 20 different places in the forums (use mail for exchange) and it syncs my google calendar but doesn't bring in any of my contacts.02:30
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New_n900_UserAlso in a decently lit room I can barely make out myself from the front camera and the nice 5mp camera takes pictures full of noise even using bless900. Did I miss some config step because I've seen people take beautiful photos with this camera.02:42
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ShadowJKI'm thinking people probably used night mode, or flash near the target, in less than daylight..02:43
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SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: PR1.0 is sucky02:43
SpeedEvilNew_n900_User: PR1.3 has _lots_ better camera handling, the camera has improved markedly.02:44
New_n900_UserUnless I'm horribly mistaken I flashed pr1.302:44
SpeedEvilAnd then there is fcam - whihc can take much longer exposure pics02:44
New_n900_UserAnd I've tried fcamera too, still ridiculously high noise.02:44
SpeedEvilCheck te version number02:44
lcukNew_n900_User, try altering the settings and tweaking02:46
* lcuk usually sticks in macro mode and disables flash02:47
New_n900_UserMacro mode? Really? Why?02:47
lcukhappy new year all btw \o02:47
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lcukNew_n900_User, I take a lot of shots that automatic just doesn't get02:48
lcukbut macro mode does (short range macro shots)02:48
lcukbut because of the way macro focus scan works, it does the normal photos too02:48
ShadowJKI dont think automatic even considers or tries to focus as near as macro does02:48
* lcuk nods02:48
ShadowJKand macro atleast fails to focus further out for me02:48
lcuki still wish I could focus a few mm closer02:48
ShadowJKoh wait it just focused at 1.5m02:49
New_n900_UserNow which application do you use?02:49
ShadowJKI'm using default camera app02:49
lcukstandard built in software02:49
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New_n900_User(fcamera has the option to point to a focus point)02:49
lcukNew_n900_User, the hardware is incapable of focusing on what I want02:49
lcuki want to turn on the recording red light and focus on woodgrain when using n900 as a mouse02:50
lcuki can see wood grain already02:50
lcukso should get some, but any extra focus depth would help the algo02:50
ShadowJKyou want to use the camera as a sensor for optical mouse?02:50
lcukits almost feasible02:50
jacekowskiit is more than almost feasible02:51
New_n900_UserWhat exposure settings do you use?02:51
jacekowskiyou have all you need02:51
jacekowskiand sensor02:51
lcukjacekowski, sigh, read my scrollback02:51
lcuktheres not enough definition02:51
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lcuki already have the light and almost focus02:51
lcukthere just isnt enough clarity02:51
ds3what's the min. distance for macro on the n900?02:51
jacekowskiwhat about using accelerometer + camera02:51
jacekowskids3: 5cm02:52
ds3build a 5cm spacer?02:52
SpeedEvilAdd a lens02:52
lcukkinda takes away point of the mouse :P02:52
New_n900_UserHmm, stuck it on night and it worked great.02:52
lcukjacekowski, accel isnt what is wanted02:52
lcukbut still potential02:52
ShadowJKNew_n900_User, what kind of flight do you have in the room?02:53
jacekowskilogitech made accelerometer based mouse02:53
sp3000ShadowJK: well, night == indoor, more or less02:53
ds3an accelerator based mouse with a BT interface could be interesting02:53
lcuk  start of mouse idea02:53
lcukactual stuff for positioning:
lcukds3, this is different idea again ;) ^^^02:54
* sp3000 somewhat wishes it admitted that and was automatic02:54
lcukanyway, happy new year \o gnite02:54
jacekowskiquestion is do you need focus02:54
jacekowskiif you only have to detect difference02:54
jacekowskiso as long as you see movement02:54
ds3lcuk: yes it is.02:54
jacekowskithat's not going to work02:54
lcukjacekowski, theres not enough layers to see it clearly02:55
jacekowskiyou have to focus if it's plain single colour material02:55
lcukjust need more definition02:55
lcukbecause of framerate02:55
New_n900_UserShadowJK, 2 incandescents02:55
lcukat the moment there is about 9 pixels of light/dark clarify02:55
ShadowJKNew_n900_User, know if they're 40W or what?02:55
lcukanyway, byeeeeeeeeeeeeee02:55
New_n900_UserBye, thanks for all the help.02:56
ShadowJKhm wow02:56
ShadowJKI'm getting 40 lux beneath my CFL, according to N900 ambient light sensor02:56
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New_n900_UserI'm going to install that really quick.02:57
ds3what path is the ALS exposed at?02:58
New_n900_Userhmm, darn, it's in dev.02:58
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ShadowJKthere's an app? I didn't know02:58
ShadowJKI just accessed the sysnode like a linux freak :/02:58
New_n900_UserHow do you do that?02:58
New_n900_UserTeach me master.02:58
SpeedEvilwhere node?02:58
SpeedEvilI happen to have an actual light meter here02:59
ShadowJKcat /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon1/device/lux02:59
SpeedEvilcomparing would be interesting02:59
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, the N900 one is highly directional, fyi02:59
ShadowJKor atleast it seems to be02:59
* ShadowJK is running it in a loop in x-terminal: while true; do cat /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon1/device/lux ; sleep 1 ; done03:00
ds3'watch cat /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon1/device/lux' =)03:00
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SpeedEvilThat could be worse03:01
SpeedEvilWhich is quite good03:01
SpeedEvilCompared to a 'proper' light meter.03:01
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SpeedEvilQuotes as it came from dealextreme.com03:02
ShadowJKHey, that's funny. I thought the two little holes housed the ALS03:02
New_n900_UserSo now my big issues are getting smscon working and gmail contacts import then I back it up and I'm done fooling for a while.03:02
ShadowJKBut ALS reading goes to 0 when I cover display side camera03:02
ShadowJKactually none of this is making sense03:03
ShadowJKOh, I get it. It's above the camera03:03
ShadowJKnever noticed that before..03:04
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Have you considered that it's a fundamentally insane universe, and almost none of it makes sense?03:04
ShadowJKwow there's an entire hole on my N900 I haven't noticed before03:04
ShadowJKand neither did the people who made my screen protector03:04
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New_n900_UserSo does no one here sync their google contacts?03:05
ShadowJKwell i dont have google contacts, so no03:05
New_n900_UserHmm, thought every moderate geek did. ;-)03:05
ShadowJK218792 Lux <- beat that03:05
New_n900_UserWHAT THE HECK!?03:05
ShadowJKI'm too old03:06
ShadowJKI shone my new 1xAA flashlight at the light sensor :-)03:06
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SpeedEvil130000 lux is about noonday sun03:08
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ShadowJKI should probably no longer stare into this thing then03:12
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New_n900_UserWell good night man. Thanks for the help.03:15
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New_n900_UserJust in case anyone happens upon these logs with the same issue as me: creating a new contact on your phone and then syncing will import all of the google contacts.03:21
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bigbrovarNew_n900_User: yeah but then once u populate the user details with IM contact and stuff its stops syncing again03:39
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FIQ|n900why does the Sym meny stop working sometimes?04:36
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Termanagood morning05:25
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pupniki think the dosbox thread must be one of the oldest on t.m.o :)  06-04-07...07:16
MohammadAGPost your N900 temperature07:23
MohammadAGisn't the sensor broken?07:23
pupnikwhat does /proc/cpuinfo give you for bogomips MohammadAG ?07:26
MohammadAGBogoMIPS: 249.9607:27
pupnikok so it's 1:1 mhz07:28
pupnikthat's nice and simple07:28
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Loafersis maemo nice?08:01
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pupnik7292 pupnik    20   0 27596  13m 3448 S 66.0  5.5   1:01.42 snes9x                                                             1786 root      20   0 21752  11m 5520 R 33.0  4.7  15:32.87 Xorg10:41
javeis there some other way to download images than ?10:45
tank-manjave, probably not10:45
tank-manwhat is wrong with that one method?10:45
javetoo slow in thailand10:46
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javeso I was going to download 1st to a swedish server, but that was not possiblle10:48
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SwedeMikewhy not?10:50
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javebecause of a stupid browser protectgon scheme10:52
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javeI can work around it, its just tedious10:53
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Gh0stybest wishes to you all11:46
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Gh0styand may 2011 bring some opening of the phone screens by nokia that would be fun :p11:47
RobbieThe1stI've got my N900 completely apart, and I see three little gold-colored antenna-connectors; two on the lcd-side of the board, and one on the front/back-cover side. Are these for testing?11:48
RobbieThe1st upper-left, follow the pcb-trace from the two connectors at the corner11:49
Gh0stythere are plenty of hw related topics in the wiki ... read em11:50
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Gh0stya lot of pages from joerg contain fine details about chips, how they work together and which does what ...11:51
RobbieThe1stFair enough; I'm not even sure what the antenna-points would be -called-, let alone what to look for11:54
pupnikamazing how small these computers are... amazing11:57
RobbieThe1stAnd when you realise that the computer itself is smaller than your fingernail...12:01
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pupnikonce we made a ~15 GB music server at the office.  now it fits on a microsd12:05
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RobbieThe1st...That's honestly kind of sad. We have open hardware, datasheets on just about everything, the N900's incredibly easy to disassemble... Yet no hardware mods after a year?12:14
pupniklike what12:17
pupnikadding a...12:17
RobbieThe1stI dunno... Improved antennas would be easily possible, digital compass...12:18
RobbieThe1stIt would be trivial to install an external Cell-antenna port for one of those large range-extender antennas12:20
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RobbieThe1stI would have -expected- some mods of -any- sort; you see them for other, more locked-down devices commonly enough12:21
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pupnikRobbieThe1st: the hardware hackers seem to go for more hackable hardware12:26
pupnikand that was two years ago12:27
RobbieThe1stOh, that reminds me - I was thinking of getting a BT -> RS232 adaptor(SPP profile). Would it work? Would I need a custom kernel module?12:29
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RobbieThe1stHuh, that's interesting: "When the battery cover is removed, the [magnetic] sensor sends an interrupt to OMAP and both memory cards are powered down". I thought it was only the SD card...12:44
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lardmanand a happy new year of course12:50
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lardmanhi RobbieThe1st, I guess everyone else is busy coding killer apps, or eating bacon, or out for a New Year's stroll12:59
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jaskathe term "killer app" always makes me cringe13:08
jaskalike "cyberspace"13:08
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lardmanjaska: :) well you know what I mean, and with everyone developing them this morning I guess we'll have to get used to the term too ;)13:24
lardmanor they may all be eating bacon of course13:24
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lardmanperhaps too much there13:25
pupniksomehow less appetizing in that amount13:27
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BluesLeecan someone help out: i compiled some kernel modules, inserting them via insmod gives me "invalid module format"13:28
RST38hmoo all13:29
RST38hlardman: touchscreen reconsidered its behaviour? =)13:29
BluesLeethe wiki says that there could be a version mismatch between sdks kernel headers and running kernel13:29
BluesLeeobjcopy --strip-debug \13:29
BluesLee-R .modinfo -R __versions hello.ko13:29
lardmanRST38h: it started working again yesterday evening, as if nothing had been wrong13:30
crashanddiehappy new year maemo13:30
lardmanRST38h: am a bit wary now that it might fail again at any moment13:31
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lardmanhappy new year crashanddie13:31
lardmanBluesLee: correct ARCH for your compilation?13:32
BluesLeelardman: in .config: CONFIG_ARM=y13:33
lardmandid the instructions not tell you to set ARCH as an env var too?13:34
lardmanI guess there are different ways to compile, /me only knows the way he learned years ago13:35
BluesLeelardman: i used
BluesLeelardman: sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL + modifying .config + "make EXTRAVERSION=-omap1 modules"13:36
lardmancorrect path to kernel headers?13:37
BluesLeelardman: how can i check if there is a kind of mismatch?13:37
lardmananother thing I just read while googling was gcc version change13:37
RST38h[Join Date: Sep 2010]13:38
lardmanI really don't know, but if you enable debugging you might see more output in dmesg I suppose13:38
BluesLeelardman: dmesg gives me "no symbol version for struct_module" so i guess there is a slight mismatch between the headers used and the kernel running on my n90013:39
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BluesLeelardman: i only have little knowledge on that stuff, try and error + google:-)13:40
BluesLeelardman: thanx anyways13:40
lardmanBluesLee: well at least that's a starting point :)13:41
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lardmanRST38h: well he might have a fair point, being able to remove apps would be good, and imo integrating the rating and comments stuff in HAM (or whatever replacement) would be useful13:44
RST38hlardman: Nobody is integrating anything into HAM.13:45
RST38hlardman: And even if someone did, do you really expect useful ratings/comments from these people?13:45
lardmanwell yeah I think in general one would get ratings and comments that reflect the usecases of the general populace13:47
lardmanbut I know noone is integrating things in HAM, no point as it will be gone soonish (I hope)13:48
RST38hgeneral population has no usecases for 90% of the current n900 software13:48
lardmantrue, in which case they won't install and rate presumable13:48
keriogeneral population sucks13:48
lardmanbut he's moaning about game emulators13:48
RST38hlardman: Oh they will13:48
RST38hlardman: "Useless crap, could not get it working, thumb down'13:48
lardmankerio: yep, but these things are supposed to appeal to them eventually, can't be a devs only party forever13:49
lardmanRST38h: in which case we should have a special section for devs only with a secret 3 finger salute to enable it and stop the plebs getting in ;)13:49
RST38hlardman: Actually, see my reponse to him. =)13:49
* RST38h is being very positive today, probably because of the festive mood13:50
lardmanbut I do think that in general integrating reviews/comments/ratings in the application manager, whatever it is, would be useful13:50
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RST38hIn fact, there is a handmade app manager or two in extras-devel that do that13:50
RST38hnone of them worked for me well enough to keep them though13:50
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lardmanah, so some of the apps are in extras-devel anyway, which brings us full circle to ask why lots of apps don't make it (or bother in my case so far) to Extras13:52
RST38hHeh, the lemming actually took my suggestion seriously :)13:53
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* RST38h will revisit this thread in a few days and ask the originator about the progress of his repository creation13:53
RST38hlardman: We both know why they are not making it.13:54
lardmanwell that's exactly what we wanted to avoid, it would be better for him to disable extras-devel and encourage people to fix apps and push them to extras proper13:54
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RST38hlardman: Except he will never do that.13:54
lardmanthe problem now is that so many people have extras-devel enabled, that there's not much point in jumping through hoops to push to extras13:54
lardmanRST38h: of course, but I don't really want the bad old days of multiple repos to spring up again13:55
RST38hlardman: He wants people to give him free quality stuff. He is not interested in paying anything back, even if it is just a few words13:55
RST38hlardman: and his name is , of course, legion13:55
* lardman wanders off to get some caffeine13:58
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lardmananyone know the difference between a QCompass and a QMagnetometer?14:06
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pupnikjavispedro really put a lot of work into drnoksnes14:08
pupnikwell, compared to what i do14:08
RobbieThe1stQuick question guys - does the n900 support the SPP bluetooth profile?14:09
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RST38hnot out of the box14:10
RobbieThe1stWhat's needed? I'm looking to, say, transmit and receive ascii data over bluetooth->serial...14:11
RST38hprobably requires a userspace program for it14:13
pH5lardman: I think the only difference is the way the results are presented14:13
RST38hbut I may be wrong, ask VDVsx14:13
pH5magnetometer returns magnetic flux in x y and z directions of a three axis magnetometer, the compass returns angles14:13
RobbieThe1stBut the backend would work without trouble?14:14
RobbieThe1stassuming I can find a proper program(minicom?)14:14
RobbieThe1stAand, I answered my own question.14:15
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lardmanpH5: cool, thanks14:23
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Pradeephi everyone happy yr14:31
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redeemancan the flash utility back EVERYTHING completely up, so that i can try reflash, and afterwards return EVERYTHING to my backup?14:32
redeemanas in both root and emmc and all shit14:32
RobbieThe1stNo; you'll have to wait for it to redownload all packages14:38
RobbieThe1stAnd, of course, it doesn't back up any user files.14:38
RobbieThe1stYou can try with BackupMenu (In extras-devel); it'll backup rootfs and optfs images, though you'll still have to manually copy all your files from MyDocs and your SD card.14:38
RobbieThe1stNow, I'm off. Bye all.14:39
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* alterego stumbles in14:41
Termanahey alterego14:43
alteregoHey :)14:46
alteregoHappy 201114:46
Termanaalterego, happy new year to you to :)14:48
* lardman passes alterego some painkillers14:48
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alteregoThanks ;)14:50
alteregoI'm alright tbh, which is suprising14:50
alteregoJust hungry14:51
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* alterego has a bath14:54
alteregoand catch up on tmo14:54
alterego"Elop said N9 is a 2011 event, it's 2011, where is it?!?!"14:54
Termanaalterego, yeah that's just the same stuff rehashed14:56
Termanaalterego, personally I'm taking interest in the fight between Mr. power-kernel and Mr. open-source-forced-donation-injection-driver-man14:57
jacekowskiwhat is a problem?14:58
RST38hI think that was some lemming's attempt at humor14:58
RST38hYes, it [unsurprisingly] backfired.14:58
Termanajacekowski, Mr. power-kernel doesn't like that Mr. open-source-forced-donation-injection-driver-man is forcing donations to get binary and source now that he is releasing it outside of the scope of Neopwn14:59
jacekowskiwho is mr power-kernel?15:00
RST38hSorry but how can he FORCE donations?15:00
jacekowskidonate or i will kill teh kitten15:00
alteregoHe should release it into mainline kernel if it's that  good.15:00
TermanaWhich I think is actually illegal. He performed work for an employer, just because he didn't get paid doesn't mean he has the IP rights15:00
lardmanapparently that's what he'd trying to do15:01
Termanajacekowski, Titan or whatever15:01
alteregoOh, well, I'll just wait then.15:01
RST38hOk, kill the kitten, make a video,upload to youtube15:01
jacekowski~seen ttan15:01
apti haven't seen 'ttan', jacekowski15:01
jacekowski~seen t-tan15:01
aptt-tan <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 203d 17h 20m 47s ago, saying: 'smoking hot device?'.15:01
lardmanalterego: you still here?15:02
TermanaRST38h, there is no problem with someone else giving it away for free. But the guy who wrote the code is only giving it out if you donate15:02
RST38h1) What is the license on this code?15:02
alteregolardman: I never leave!15:03
jacekowskiand it's perfectly legal to do so15:03
jacekowskion gpl15:03
Termanajacekowski, ah looks like its already out in the open then :p15:03
jacekowskiwell, some people are just dickheads15:03
jacekowskiand that's why GPL sucks15:03
Termana141mb? WTF?15:03
RST38h2) Has he made sources available?15:03
jacekowskiRST38h: to people that donated15:03
alteregoIf it's GPL can people that have donated distribute sources?15:04
jacekowskithey can15:04
jacekowskibut it's being dickheads15:04
Termanaalterego, of course15:04
lardmanalterego: just wondering about that compass slider, is it 100pix wide?15:04
RST38hSo, let one of them distribute the sources, case closed.15:04
keriothe GPL sucks15:04
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lardmanRST38h: quite15:04
alteregolardman: more like 280px15:04
alteregowait 38015:04
alteregoIt's half the width of the screen.15:04
RST38hBesides, I somehow suspect this "cool" wl1251 driver is just something he compiled from the sources already avalilable in other projects15:05
lardmanalterego: ok, will have to sit down and draw it to work out what all the number in there are doing! ;)15:05
RST38hDid he do ANY original work at all?15:05
Termanajacekowski, 141mb for sources, the whole kernel tree isn't even that big compressed15:05
lardmanbbiam, have to pop to the shop15:05
patrakovhi. I want to reset my Nokia N900 to default settings, except that I want PR1.2 (not 1.3) and want to keep my documents intact. Is it possible?15:05
jacekowski wireless-testing.tar.bz2                                                  â”‚ 71915K│15:06
jacekowskithat's a big part of it15:06
jacekowskikerio: yes it does15:06
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jacekowskiRST38h: all of patches are his own15:09
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TermanaI still contend that, while he WROTE them, he doesn't not own the copyright for the patches15:11
Termanadoesn't own*15:11
jacekowskihe does15:11
TermanaHe has explicitly stated it is the work he did for Neopwn15:12
jacekowskibut he never got paid as far as i know15:12
TermanaWork done for an employer is automatically the employer's work15:12
Termanajacekowski, it doesn't matter15:12
jacekowskithey may own financial rights15:12
jacekowskibut copyrights remain with person that wrote it15:12
Termanathat's not the case at all15:12
jacekowskiit is15:13
jacekowskineopwn person can't legally write that he made that driver15:13
jacekowskieven though he paid for it15:13
jacekowski( except he didn't )15:13
jacekowskibut he can sell it and do everything else with it15:13
jacekowskiassuming that we ignore GPL problem for now15:14
TermanaIt doesn't matter whether he paid for it or not, the work was written under an employment agreement between him and Neopwn15:14
TermanaTherefore Neopwn holds the rights15:14
jacekowskicopyright law isn't that simple15:14
TermanaThe remedy for the situation is for the guy to sue Neopwn for a breach of contract15:14
SpeedEvilTypically no pay, no transferral of rights.15:14
jacekowskiCopyright is a set of exclusive rights granted by the law of a jurisdiction to the author or creator of an original work415:15
jacekowskiand then little bit further down is that you can only sell your financial rights15:16
jacekowskidistribution rights15:16
jacekowskiwhich is part of it15:16
jacekowskibut whoever buys it is still not allowed that it's his work15:16
Termanajacekowski, your completely wrong, IMO, at least by Australian law.15:17
jacekowskiwell i don't care about australia15:17
TermanaEven submission of work to a University is work done for a University and they then have the rights to it15:17
derfYou're also wrong by US law.15:17
jacekowskiyes they have right to do whatever they want15:17
jacekowskiexcept to say that THEY made it15:17
jacekowskiotherwise you wouldn't even be able to say in cv that you made that sort of thing15:18
derfEurope has some crazy "Moral Rights" crap.15:18
jacekowskiwithout breaching copyright15:18
derfWhich is I think what jacekowski is trying to talk about.15:18
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pupnikcopyright is transferrable in all western jurisdictions that i've read about15:19
derfMoral rights are not actually the same thing as copyright.15:20
derfBut the "right of attribution" is one of them.15:20
jacekowskiit's part of bernce convention15:20
jacekowskiand US signed it15:20
jacekowskiVisual Artists Rights Act15:21
jacekowskiThe Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990 (VARA) recognizes moral rights, but only as they apply to works of visual art. The VARA is part of Title 17, the U.S. Copyright Code.15:21
jacekowskiVARA gives qualifying authors the following rights:15:21
jacekowskiright to claim authorship15:21
jacekowskiright to prevent the use of one's name on any work the author did not create15:21
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TermanaFine, you retain that right to say you made it. But it doesn't give you redistribution rights15:21
derfIn the US, moral rights can be waived, and any copyright transfer agreement you ever see will do so.15:21
pupnikjacekowski: < jacekowski> but copyrights remain with person that wrote it  <<< this is where you slipped up15:21
derfSo effectively we have no such thing.15:22
jacekowskiwell, names15:22
jacekowskii'm not so familiar with that area of law15:22
jacekowskiand according to this table15:22
jacekowskiaustralia has something like that as well15:22
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pupniki think copyright is immoral, but that's a much wider topic :)15:24
TermanaWhen you perform work for someone, you transfer rights of usage, copying, modification, redistribution etc.15:24
TermanaJust because you can say you made it, that means nothing - especially for the situation15:24
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jacekowskithing is what if it's work on GPLed code15:25
TermanaIt doesn't matter15:25
jacekowskiwell, if code is on GPL, then code is free for everyone15:25
TermanaYou are not distributing to a third party15:25
pupniki want to run a handful of android apps within an execution environment under linux :/15:25
jacekowskilet me ask on debian-legal15:26
TermanaThe GPL even outlines this for cases of eg. businesses15:26
TermanaIf you put GPL software on all your business computers, you do not need to give employees the code15:26
TermanaIt is not redistribution as defined by the GPL15:26
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lardmanbut surely they can ask for the code?15:33
lardmanor do they not have that right because they are employees15:33
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Termanalardman, they can ask, but they don't have to be given it15:34
lardmanfair enough15:34
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TermanaInternal distribution is not covered by the GPL's distribution clauses15:35
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Termanajacekowski, lardman - GPL FAQ says it itself -
Termana"You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization."15:39
alteregoWeird, I didn't think the GPL allowed that.15:39
SpeedEvilEven if customers use the machines.15:40
alteregoSo, it's only when you're making something that you sell with GPLd software that you have to supply sources if people request right?15:40
lardmanSpeedEvil: question or statement?15:40
lardmanah I see15:41
Termanaalterego, sell? No. If you distribute it to someone that is not a part of your organisation ("the public"), you have to provide sources15:41
alteregoAh, m'kay.15:41
alteregoWell, that's sort of what I meant.15:41
alteregoI was talking in terms of some fictional product, like say, the N9 :)15:42
TermanaAnyway, I'll bbs - going to go take a shower.15:42
alteregoYou should, you smell like a yeti15:42
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* SpeedEvil wonders if distribution includes leaving it on the train.15:44
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* alterego sighs15:46
alteregoNow to work out why the HOME environment variable is screwing with liblocation in my app.15:46
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javeI'm trying to reflash a bricked n90015:50
aptsomebody said flashing was
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javeI'm not sure about the battery charge15:52
javecan I try anyway?15:53
WizzupJust wondering... Has anyone ever tried to use pulseaudio on n900 as client and laptop as server, and then broadcast the sound from laptop (via pulse) over FM?15:54
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pupniknice project idea for a gui applet Wizzup15:55
WizzupI'll have to get it work first anyway... :p15:55
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TermanaSpeedEvil, I assume it's the same situation of someone stealing it from you - no.15:59
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alteregoNow is causing problems.16:04
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alteregoThis is pathetic :/16:09
alteregoAnd I'm not clever enough to debug it :'(16:09
Lorihi! anyone using Pidgin on the N900? it happens quite often that it keeps running in the background without any way to switch to it... :|16:09
jacekowskiTermana: yeah, that's correct16:10
alteregoLori: status bar applet?16:10
jacekowskiTermana: but is employer allowed to take source code with him16:10
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jacekowskiWizzup: there are ready made fm transmitters that you just stick into your network card16:11
jacekowskiWizzup: sound card*16:11
funtohi all, I am having trouble installing some packages on my N90016:12
Lorialterego: you have to install it separately? there is nothing in the status bar by default16:12
funtoI would like to install GCC, the man pages and some stuff16:12
jacekowskifunto: not enough space on the phone for that16:12
alteregoLori: oh, dunno t hen16:12
alterego~then ..16:12
alteregoI don't use Pidgin on  the N900, try asking on tmo16:12
funtobut I get "Package XXX is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source"16:12
Lorialterego: ok, thanks16:13
funtoI googled but did not find anything interesting...16:13
funtojacekowski: really? the phone has quite a lot of space...16:13
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alteregofunto: not in the / filesystem.16:13
alteregofunto: which is where gcc, manpages, headers etc will get installed.16:14
Termanajacekowski, in terms of if the employee is severed or what not? Yes, the employer retains the rights transferred and takes them with him, they don't get transferred back.16:14
jacekowskiTermana: that's gpl code16:14
jacekowskiso what is gpl status on patches16:15
jacekowskias in i supply patches for gpl code16:15
alteregofunto: you might be able to download the packages and install them into /opt though16:15
jacekowskinot including gpl code itself16:15
alteregofunto: but you'd have to manually decompress them there and fix gcc's search paths.16:15
jacekowskiare patches gpled in that case16:15
SpeedEviljacekowski: see the derivitave work clauses16:16
funtoalterego: using dpkg -i ? So we could decide where to install the packages with some options for dpkg?16:16
Termanajacekowski, no, even if they were included in the whole source it wouldn't matter.16:16
alteregofunto: no, using dpkg -x package.deb /opt/mygcc16:17
alteregoor something16:17
TermanaIt is still internal distribution and the rights for the code written is still held by the employer16:17
jacekowskiTermana: i'm talking about something else16:17
funtoalterego: ok thanks16:18
jacekowskiTermana: like i'm independent developer and i want to make some cash on developing drivers for device16:18
Termanajacekowski, are you asking if the patch is automatically GPL'ed? If that's the case no.16:19
alteregoYay, fixed it.16:19
jacekowskihmm, so technicaly person that posted that package violated his copyright16:19
lardmanwhen you tap on the screen, does one get a QEvent button value of Qt::LeftButton ?16:20
Termanajacekowski, if the guy still withheld the rights, he has placed the patches under GPL anyway, so no16:20
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jacekowskiare you sure patches i gpled16:21
jacekowskii don't see anywhere that it is gples16:21
TermanaHowever, I believe 1) the guy has infringed on the rights held by Neopwn and 2) Any further distribution by anyone else is a violation of rights held by Neopwn as well16:21
Termanajacekowski, I can only go on what he said in the thread16:22
TermanaI haven't examined the patches or the folder containing the patches etc.16:22
Wizzupjacekowski: Probably, but I want to do it with pulseaudio16:22
jacekowskiwell, i believe he never got paid for a job16:22
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Termanajacekowski, it doesn't matter16:22
jacekowskiand therefore it's breach of contract16:22
TermanaBut that doesn't make the contract void16:22
jacekowskiand his copyrights were never transfered in first place16:23
javeI cant bring my n900 into usb mode16:24
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TermanaAny donation he accepts he can be sued for by Neopwn for damages.16:24
TermanaHe is able to sue Neopwn for breach of contract for not paying him16:24
jacekowskidepends on contract terms16:24
jacekowskiif contract clearly stated that he pays at specific date or something16:25
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TermanaI assume it was mostly probably a verbal agreement, "Write this for me and I'll pay you $X"16:25
* alterego contemplates how to store his waypoints16:26
alteregoI think a database.16:27
BCMMverbal agreements are always a terrible idea if money is involved16:27
TermanaBCMM, agreed. Verbal agreements are in fact bad for anything you care about. If you care about it, if it is important - get it in clear writing with all the nooks and crannies decided, so that something doesn't come back to bite you16:29
BCMMnever mind nooks and crannies; whether there ever was an agreement will become an issue16:30
BCMMsomebody who doesn't want a written agreement is either trying to rip you off, or is stupid, in which case they may well forget about the agreement16:31
jacekowskiTermana: and thing is that neopwn released binary drivers16:31
jacekowskiTermana: gpled binary drivers with no source16:31
Termanajacekowski, yes, and he can be sued by kernel developers of which the work has been specifically derived from16:32
Termana(Newpwn can be sued by kernel developers)16:33
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SpeedEvilAlso by the guy that did the coding16:37
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TermanaSpeedEvil, we already mentioned breach of contract. The guy who did the coding can't sue for copyright violation16:39
SpeedEvilno, he can sue for breach of contract.16:39
TermanaYou mean like I just said he could? :p16:40
SpeedEvilAlso, as I understand it, the copyright has to be explicitly assigned in terms of contracts, it's unlikely it passed in this case, especially with lack of payment16:41
TermanaSpeedEvil, I don't believe that interpretation to be correct. For instance, going back to the University situation, performing work at the request of the University and submitting it automatically confers the right (besides the point that most Universities here actually waive this and you do keep the copyright)16:44
TermanaIt is not explicitly written anywhere16:44
TermanaIt's not something you agree to, it is just what happens16:45
SpeedEvilThere is wording to that effect in the agreement you sign that binds you to agree to the rules of the university.16:45
SpeedEvilOr rather - it's part of the rules of the university.16:45
WizzupWell I don't think pulseaudio will be any good. The version on n900 is too old and incompatible with upstream versions16:45
SpeedEvilAt least here.16:45
WizzupPerhaps gstreamer can help...16:45
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lardmanis it possible to remove Garage projects?17:04
WizzupIs the mediaplayer open source? </noob question>17:04
alteregoWizzup: no17:05
alteregoBut there are people working on a complete FOSS implementation.17:05
GAN900Well, Happy New Year, kids.17:05
alteregoWhich is coming on extremely well.17:05
alteregoHappy new year GAN900 :)17:05
alteregoGAN900: is this the year you move to Android?17:05
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GAN900alterego, good god no.17:06
alteregoI forget, do you actually have an iPhone?17:07
alteregoMy sister in law is getting one next week -_-17:07
GAN900There are several spares in the house, yes.17:07
Wizzupalterego: I see. I was looking on how they used the radio transmitter. :-)17:07
GAN900Tried one for a couple days when my September proto died.17:07
alteregoWizzup: should be quite well documented have a search around the wiki.17:07
GAN900Wanted to put my eyes out.17:07
GAN900Really don't see the appeal.17:08
pupnikGAN900: ++17:08
Wizzupalterego: I can find the hardware article, not so much on programmer API's.17:08
alteregoIt's nice, if all you want is smooth flawless transitions between fart apps.17:08
WizzupApart from a d-bus description17:08
GAN900I mean, it's pretty and all that17:08
GAN900usability is generally high17:08
GAN900it's not completely bug-ridden17:08
GAN900But it just isn't useful.17:08
alteregoSure, well, I dunno, I think the iP4 looks uncomfortable to hold.17:08
alteregoLike a pane of thick glass.17:09
GAN900The whole one-thing-at-a-time way of working is incredibly limiting.17:09
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pupnikhow about the app manager warnings about which privacy components apps compromise?17:09
* Wizzup will learn more video for linux17:09
alteregoYeah, that'd piss me off.17:09
GAN900Even the homebrew is monetized.17:09
pupnikWizzup: if you want to stream video to the n900 check out "knots2"17:10
SpeedEvilone-thing-at-a-time may be useful for people who can't think of more than that though.17:10
Wizzuppupnik, I want to stream my own sounds over the FM transmitter. Preferrably sounds from other machines (but pulseaudio is incompatible) so I'll try http or gstreamer17:11
GAN900SpeedEvil, indeed.17:11
GAN900Most people seem to like it because it's better than everything that can before it17:11
GAN900and it doesn't require them to think.17:11
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alteregoWell, I like Symbian, where multitasking is there but most users don't even realise that they've left all their apps open.17:14
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alteregoUnlike Maemo/MeeGo, where your tasks are unmissable.17:14
jacekowskiwel, maemo way is annoying17:14
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alteregoWhat do you find so annoying about it?17:16
pupnikwhat's that trick where you give someone ssh access to your box and can watch what they type on the console / terminal?17:16
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alteregoI quite like it, though I wish that the "dashboard" would only appear when you click on a special dashboard icon.17:16
alteregoSo you have direct access to the app menu without having to transition through the dashboard.17:16
alteregoBut that's just me.17:16
ShadowJKI like the dashboard so much I find firefox and opera tabs annoying :-)17:17
alteregoDo you seriously use Opera and Fennec that much?17:20
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ShadowJKfirefox latest beta is pretty usable :-)17:20
ShadowJKand opera was always usable17:20
ShadowJKbut the interface is kinda annoying there17:21
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alteregoYeah, I don't like the fennec ux at all.17:33
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ShadowJKit zooms in on what I want with doubletap more often than microb17:35
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ShadowJKbut sometimes nothing happens, and I double tap again, and then after 20 secs it suddenly zooms in out in out in out in17:35
alteregoDoes it actually have the zoom into element feature now then?17:35
alteregoI'd love Opera if it had that.17:35
alteregoIt's the only reason really that I use microb exclusively.17:36
alteregoBecause the zoom to element is fsking awesome :)17:36
ShadowJKusually opera actually figures out which link im long tapping, much better than microb and fennec17:36
alteregoNot had that problem tbh17:36
ShadowJKit's hard to make microb recognize longtap on the postcount in tmo minimalist light17:37
ShadowJKwhen postcount is singledigit17:38
ShadowJKand hard to make it zoom in on it with doubletap17:38
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alteregoI always feel dirty when I use SQL in an application.17:53
alteregoWell, a C/C++ application17:53
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lardmansay I have an app which uses plugins, and these plugins want to update their data at arbitrary intervals, I could allow each plugin to create a QTimer, but I was thinking centralising the timer stuff would more easily allow me to suspend timers if the app is backgrounded18:01
lardmanany thoughts as to whether this is or isn't a good idea?18:01
alteregoI'd have a timer in each plugin like you said.18:02
lardmanthe centralising would also make it easier to write plugins, as they wouldn't need to listen for an extra "we're going to the bg" signal18:02
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alteregoBut have a suspend/resume method in each function18:02
aptalterego meant: But have a suspend/resume method in each plugin18:02
lardmanyep, makes sense18:02
LjLhi. do you think this supposed N900 is real or fake? i know there isn't very much to look at, but perhaps the OS screen18:03
alteregoYou can even, that way, have a base "AbstractApplicationPlugin" class that implements the timer suspend/resume slots and leave syou to just setup the timer in your plugins constructor.18:03
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lardmanthe only issue is that not all plugins will have timer-related updates18:04
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lardmanbut I guess I can always check for the presence of the timer object18:04
SpeedEvilLjL: the box looks right, from what I recall, the n900 looks legit on a first look18:05
alteregolardman: Well, the proper way to do it would be to declare that your plugin implements timer interface, then you can interact with it in that manner with a cast.18:07
alteregoOtherwise ignore it if it doesn't implement that interface.18:07
lardmanI'd like to make the plugin writing as simple as possible18:08
alteregoWell, it is, I could knock up the code in a few minutes :P18:08
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LjLSpeedEvil: a generic however as in who really knows, i guess?18:13
lardmanalterego: I'll remember that, and give you a shout once the code is in Garage18:15
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SpeedEvilLjL: I was about to comment 'however I'd never buy from someone with one positive feedback in the last 12 months, it's an almost guarantee that the account has been stolen.18:16
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SpeedEvilLjL: But I then realised that the reason for the 1 feedback in the last 12 months is that the people buying in the last 12 months are repeat customers of similar items - and hence that's unlikel18:17
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SpeedEvilrepeat customers don't count in the feedback totals18:17
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alteregoSlow day today18:20
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alteregoSuprised there aren't more people online18:20
alteregoFor new years hacking ^.^18:20
lardmansame here18:21
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GAN900They'll probably all still dead18:25
GAN900I know I am, despite not leaving the house last night.18:26
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alteregoI'm alright,18:28
alteregoBit hungover but not too bad considering :)18:28
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alteregoI really just want to get Columbus v1 out of the way so I can start working on another app and let it rest for a bit.18:32
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alteregoThink I've hooked in QSql successfully now though ^.^18:37
alteregoSo my waypoint storage seems good.18:37
alteregoQSqlTableModel ftw18:38
alteregoAnd my custom delegate of course.18:39
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alteregoHrm, almost.18:47
lcukalterego, HNY18:47
lcukqsql within qml?18:48
TheJhello, anyone else having wrong year showing in conky?18:48
alteregoBut there is support for SQL in QML18:48
alteregoColumbus isn't QML :P18:48
lcuki thought you found some nice bits and were mixing and matching?18:48
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lcuknot that it matters18:49
lcukTheJ, hrm18:49
lcukcheck your n900 knows the correct date18:49
alteregolcuk: I'm planning a large UI redesign for v218:49
alteregoBut that's way off, it'll be a mix between Qt,QML and OpenGL18:50
alteregoIt's gonna be awesome ;)18:50
TheJyes. the clock in status menu is showing the correct date..18:50
alteregolcuk: Maybe even something like QML 3D, dunno if you've seen that around?18:50
alteregoLooks very fun :)18:50
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TheJcould it be that i have a cusrtomized conky.conf file?18:52
lcukTheJ, could be, if someone set a fixed format in one of the options18:53
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TheJ{time %A %d %B %G}18:54
lcuktry restarting conky?18:55
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TheJtried restarting and rebooting..18:55
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TheJchanged the .conf file to another that doesn't show the date.. why do i need it in conky anyway :) thanks to all, and a happy new year!19:00
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* alterego tests adding waypoints.19:16
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* trumee interesting,
alteregoWell, that sort of worked ..19:19
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alterego Shockingly easy this ..19:31
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alteregoNow for actual entry validation.19:42
alteregoAnd parsing of coordinate formats.19:42
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redeemanhmm, i was told the flasher utility could also backup the device, but i cant find that in the help, anyone knows whether it can actually do that?19:43
jacekowskiwe know19:43
jacekowskiit can't19:43
jacekowskithere is backup utility on a phone19:43
redeemani know, but i wanted to copy _ALL_ files19:43
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jacekowskiwhat for19:44
redeemanso the backup utility really gets EVERYTHING of interest, the sms's, calender, contact list, placement of widgets on desktop, all the dotfolders in the emmc etc?19:45
redeemanthen that is what for :)19:45
jacekowskibut there is no need to flash emmc19:46
SpeedEvilIt's for confusing users.19:46
jacekowskiand if you want to flash emmc19:46
jacekowskiyou can copy all crap from there using pc19:46
SpeedEvilI personally rsync'd off my whole device before flashing.19:46
redeemanyes but wifi is broken on it19:46
SpeedEvilI would however recommend you exclude /sys and /proc - as these confuse rsync considerably. :)19:46
jacekowskido it over usbnetworking19:46
redeemanyeah i guess i could do that19:47
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redeemanallthough i doubt reflashing will fix it19:49
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LjLSpeedEvil: well i didn't buy it, i wasn't sure about it in the first place aside from the being fake issue, but it did go for just €230 which is really not a lot (i usually see between 250 and 300, more on the 300 side)19:54
ShadowJKI did rsync restore followed by backup utility restore19:55
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RST38hEvening ShadowJK19:56
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ShadowJKI'm making pancakes19:59
ShadowJKhow come there's no pancake timer app19:59
SpeedEvilShadowJK: there are a few kitchen timer apps.19:59
* SpeedEvil sighs.19:59
SpeedEvilI made a _huge_ stack of pancakes a couple of weeks ago to freeze.20:00
RST38hHave you got a wristwatch?20:00
SpeedEvilI found out after I'd made them that I'd omitted the sugar.20:00
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RST38hHas it got a freaking timer? =)20:00
alteregoSpeedEvil: ahaha20:00
alteregoJust add sugar now? :P20:00
RST38hSpeed: At least you have not replaced it with salt by mistake (yes, it happened)20:00
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SpeedEvilRST38h: True.20:01
ShadowJKI have both salt and sugar in mine20:01
ShadowJK(I hope)20:01
SpeedEvilRST38h: I'm smearing them with coreander, garlic, and vegetable oil, sticking them in the oven, and calling them naan bread.20:01
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alteregoYou'd think after the N8x0 they'd have sorted screen tear ..20:04
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ShadowJKoop too much butter20:08
ShadowJKbubbling alien landscape instead of pancake..20:09
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SpeedEvilAdd more sugar and call it a funnel cake20:12
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GAN900SpeedEvil, just add syrup?20:12
GAN900Though the naan idea is genius.20:13
SpeedEvilGAN900: It sort-of-works.20:15
SpeedEvilIt's edible anyway.20:15
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alteregoCool, now got creating and updating waypoints.20:23
alteregoNext for averaging, then I can work on actually rendering them in the trackview.20:23
Gyjfhave anyone managed to get iw on the n900?20:24
Gyjfi keep getting "invalid tar magic"20:25
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alteregoI don't believe it, they're doing another Fast & Furious film?20:26
alteregoLame ..20:26
alteregoYes, seriously ..20:27
alteregoIt's called "Fast Five" ..20:27
alteregoSounds super ghey :D20:27
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GAN900alterego, they still make money.20:29
GAN900Recall what percentage of the population is below average.20:29
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kerioGAN900: is that a trick question?20:38
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GAN900kerio, rhetorical, yes.20:47
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GAN900My intention was to illustrate why a movie like that would be produced and distributed. *g*20:47
ieatlintoh man... new year... apparently i let a bunch of woman put me in a tight fitting dress last night20:49
ieatlintalcohol can be brutal20:49
RST38hOMG, they are actually taking my trolling seriously20:51
RST38hLate tmo members are so damn gullible...20:52
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GAN900ieatlint, was it worth it? :P20:58
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lcukieatlint, not always a bad thing20:58
lcukdid the dress suit you?20:59
lcukor wasnt it your colour?20:59
kerioa.k.a. ieatlint, did you have sex with them afterwards? :P20:59
ieatlinttonight didn't pay off... but i have reason to think it will in the near future ;)20:59
lcukyeah and you can happily wipe cross dressing off future new years lists :P21:00
ieatlintthe colour fit me well enough.. plaid21:00
ieatlintnot the first time this has happened21:00
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* ieatlint lives in san francisco, etc21:01
lcuklardman, how was your new year?  ieatlint and you need to compare notes :P21:01
alteregoMy waypoints custom list.21:02
* alterego contemplates adding in lat/lon values as well.21:02
lcukalterego, theres me thinking you were making a racing game ;)21:02
alteregoThough that's probably not important in that view tbh21:02
RST38halterego: how does your compass work anyway?21:03
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alteregoI like how everyone calls it a compass21:04
alteregoJust because it has a pretty compass widget, it does a bit more than just show you which way north is :P21:04
alteregoRST38h: it displays heading, nothing special.21:06
alteregoI'll probably implement support for a digital compass if/when I get my hands on a device with it.21:06
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alteregoBut then, heading is still probably the most useful aspect in this app ..21:08
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RST38halterego: will there be maps?21:10
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alteregoNot for v121:11
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RST38halterego: I, for once, would be interested in support =)21:12
RST38halterego: Maep author said he is not doing local maps =(21:12
alteregoOh, is that a collection of old maps, so you can kind of imagine how things have changed?21:13
alteregoThat would be quite neat.21:13
alteregoMaybe useful for archeologists ;)21:13
RST38halterego: Yep, from ancient times to 201021:13
RST38halterego: It is a killer app for city walkers21:13
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RST38halterego: You bring it up and can immediately check out what has been there 100, 200, 400 years ago + the arhictectural plans for this place as they developed over time21:14
alteregoWell, I might write a seperate app for something like that in the future ;)21:14
alteregoI don't think I should include it into Columbus though21:14
alteregoEven if it does have a retro sounding name ^.^21:14
tobis87jacekowski: Hi, I have seen in the backlog you posted a link to the injection drivers. It is already down, google has cached the link to, however the file was removed: .21:15
* timeless_xchat chuckles @iOS new years alarm features 21:17
jacekowskitobis87: nope21:18
jacekowskitobis87: i never pasted it21:18
jacekowskii pasted link to page21:19
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jacekowskithat's all21:20
jacekowskinot to a driver21:20
jacekowskihmm, he took it down21:20
RST38halterego: the maps are available in pretty much the same way as Google maps21:20
RST38halterego: So, no extra app is required, just add 'em as options among other choices (Google maps, MS Terraserv, Yahoo maps, Yandex maps, etc)21:21
alteregoWell, I wasn't planning on supporting multiple backends21:22
alteregoI was just going to use ovi map sources in the new mobility api21:22
tobis87jacekowski: Yes, that is what I ment. It is GPL, someone should mirror it. He should have made it an option to donate and not to have to.21:22
jacekowskiit's not gpl21:22
RST38halterego: ovi maps stuff is
jacekowskitobis87: it's not gpl in first place21:22
RST38halterego: and it does look like supporting web maps is not that difficult21:23
alteregoWell, I'll think about it, you're right it isn't really much more work.21:23
alteregoAnd the whole of v1->v2 development is going to be around mapping.21:24
alteregoSo I guess I should be able to write a plugin interface for map sources, then you can implement the plugin yourself :P21:24
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RST38halterego: Dunno, Mappero simply lets you enter URLs,with some special fields where latlons are inserted21:25
RST38halterego: Of course, this does not work for every source. For example, it fails for retromaps21:25
tobis87jacekowski: How is it not gpl? Did he rewrote the driver from scratch?21:26
alteregoHrm, well, I'll do some research when I start working on v2 ;)21:26
alteregoI need to finish up my v1 roadmap first.21:26
RST38hretromaps require a quadtree path (i.e. sequence of quadrant IDs like 112314313421:26
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alteregoI'm going to be adding a load of GLES2 hardware accelerated mapping facilities for v221:27
alteregoIt's gonna be sweet :)21:27
alteregoWith a mix of QML as well.21:28
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jacekowskitobis87: that package includes kernel21:29
jacekowskitobis87: and patches21:29
jacekowskitobis87: and other stuff21:29
jacekowskitobis87: patches are not GPLed21:29
jacekowskitobis87: because they are not touching GPL code yet21:29
jacekowskitobis87: there is GPLed kernel with patches already applied and stuff21:30
jacekowskitobis87: so alex could have extracted patches easily and do it legally21:30
jacekowskitobis87: but he just wanted to be cunt21:30
RST38halterego: Just be light on GLES2, looks like it causes all kinds of stability problems21:31
RST38hSHouldn't, of course, but such is the driver quality21:31
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luke-jrjacekowski: BS21:35
tobis87But does the package not also includes compiled modules, which have the changes made to the code?21:35
luke-jrjacekowski: all of Linux is GPL21:35
luke-jrjacekowski: if it's a kernel patch, it's touching GPL code21:35
jacekowskinot until it's applied21:35
FauxFauxIs there anywhere to put shell aliases that are honoured ny busybox; e.g. a .ashrc?  It even ignores etc/profile.21:36
jacekowskiwell i consulted person that does it every day21:36
jacekowskiand he wasn't sure of that21:36
jacekowskiit may be gpled but may be not21:36
luke-jrjacekowski: a patch is merely a method of compressing a modified tree21:37
luke-jrjust because you don't see any of the original code when you gzip the kernel, doesn't mean it's no longer GPL21:37
jacekowskibut what if you write patch by hand21:37
luke-jryou can't write a patch by hand21:37
jacekowskiyou can21:37
luke-jryou need to base it on the original code21:38
luke-jror it won't work21:38
luke-jreven if you didn't have to copy and paste 3 lines of context before/after each change, it's STILL a derivative work21:38
tobis87Is the injection stuff touching mac80211? I understand that it is a recent version of the driver, but maybe the it could be backported.21:39
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tobis87I mean without updating the kernel, since mac80211 is compiled into the stock kernel.21:40
jacekowskiluke-jr: real lawyer isn't sure about it21:41
luke-jrjacekowski: lots of real lawyers are.21:41
luke-jrjacekowski: it's not rocket science21:41
jacekowskilot of people wish that it would be one way or another21:41
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jacekowskiesspecialy that with kernel there are some exceptions to gpl and stuff21:42
jacekowskias you are allowed to have binary drivers21:42
jacekowskiclosed binary drivers using kernel headers21:43
RST38h"Has the Industrialized World Reached Peak Travel?" (C)Slahdot21:43
luke-jrjacekowski: wrong21:43
alteregoRST38h: reall? That's lame, I've not had any issues with GLES2 personally.21:43
luke-jrjacekowski: binary drivers using kernel headers are illegal21:43
luke-jrjacekowski: the only exception is for userland21:43
alteregoAngry Birds and apps seem to work fine aswell ..21:43
luke-jrjacekowski: anything that touches the kernel (exception to userland only) MUST be GPL21:44
jacekowskiluke-jr: so how nvidia drivers are working?21:45
luke-jrjacekowski: they are illegal21:45
alteregoluke-jr: you're wrong.21:45
luke-jrjacekowski: they are "working" because everyone who can sue nVidia, is too scared to21:45
alteregoLinux has support for closed modules.21:45
jacekowskieven microsoft was sued for gpl violation21:45
luke-jralterego: wrong21:45
jacekowskiand they released a lot of code because of that21:46
alteregoluke-jr: you're wrong.21:46
luke-jrjacekowski: not just anyone can sue for GPL violations21:46
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luke-jrjacekowski: also, it doesn't hurt the community to sue Microsoft over their virtualization stuff21:46
luke-jrif someone sues nVidia, then nVidia probably leaves 50% of the Linux users w/o drivers at all21:46
luke-jrthen those 50% get mad at the developer who sued, instead of nVidia like they should21:46
jacekowskithere is exception in kernel licence21:47
luke-jrjacekowski: nope21:47
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* alterego sighs21:48
luke-jrjacekowski: go ahead: show me where in the kernel copyright terms the exception is21:50
RST38hBut aren't the open source idealsmore important to you than a bunch of obscure drivers?21:51
luke-jrRST38h: I don't have a position where I can sue.21:51
jacekowskithing that is important to me if things are working or not21:51
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luke-jrjacekowski: then use Windows21:52
alteregoWindows is broken21:52
alteregoIt is a super pile of scht.21:53
RST38hluke: Thou shalt not despair and should start studying law instead!21:53
RST38hI am sure you will find *something* to sue NVidia for21:54
jacekowskii'm using windows21:54
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b-man|CAhappy new-year :)21:58
* alterego contemplates lat/lon entry possibilities.21:59
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SpeedEvilalterego: "Go to the desired lat/lon, and click 'here'."22:31
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pupnikgood morning!22:46
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alteregoGood afternoon :)22:49
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timeless_mbpalterego: seriously...23:01
timeless_mbpa map based ui is generally the right chooser for lat/lon23:01
timeless_mbpit's rather rare for a person to have lat/lon23:01
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ShadowJKI've many times wished various navigation software would allow me to put in lat lon :-(23:06
ShadowJKMostly because their search is stupid and I found the place through some other means23:06
SpeedEvilOr you want to tell someone else a location23:09
SpeedEviland they don't have the same map as you23:09
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ShadowJKI have difficulties with navigation programs in trilingual areas :/23:14
ShadowJKThe best I've seen have had the place names in two languages, and then displays everything in the language no locals use23:15
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alteregoI wonder if those motorola phones are in high demand that have had the gsm filters removed from the firmware.23:18
alteregoYes, allows the transceiver to pass on all GSM data running through the network it seems.23:19
apthmm... sees is unwililng to share23:19
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ShadowJKOh the CCC reverse engineered and rewritten firmware ones?23:20
* MohammadAG looks at tmo23:20
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alteregoShadowJK: yeah23:23
alteregoWeird ..23:23
alteregoSo how much code did this wireless guy even write?23:24
ShadowJKWhat wireless guy?23:24
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alteregoFrom one of his posts it sounds like he's just using an updated wl1251 driver from wireless-compat or something.23:24
ShadowJKThe one charging for some wlxxxx.ko module?23:24
ShadowJKHe probably just packaged it :-)23:24
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MohammadAGalterego, he wrote the injection patches, and the monitor mode ones23:25
MohammadAGso, no, he didn't just package it ;)23:25
alteregoStill, he's a lamo23:26
MohammadAGMatan posted the drivers23:26
ShadowJKI'm surprised people would pay for it23:27
ShadowJKdo they want to hack wireless that bad23:27
ShadowJKor are they just clueless23:27
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alteregoI'd definitely use it, if I had the drivers.23:27
RST38hmoo javispedro23:27
alteregoBut I do a fair amount of wireless auditing for companies.23:28
alteregowireless/network auditing23:28
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RST38hjavispedro: When is the MWC by the way?23:33
javispedroNFI, but says 14-1723:34
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RST38hjavispedro: so, february it is....23:39
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javispedrosurprise of surprises, someone actually answered my inquiries about windows 3.1 mouse driver internals..23:41
javispedrothe world is full of geeks23:41
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Venemohi guys23:44
MohammadAGhey Venemo23:45
Venemohey MohammadAG :)23:47
Venemohello alterego23:47
GAN900RST38h, think that'll be the event?23:47
RST38hGAN: Well, a minor event at least23:48
GAN900RST38h, yes, but THE event?23:48
RST38hHm, these pleasant people are seriously considering creating criteria (!) for acceptance into extras-testing23:48
javispedrotoo early23:48
* GAN900 doesn't have any hunches anymore.23:48
RST38hGAN: Depends on what you mean by THE23:48
GAN900javispedro, aye, which means I'm just trying to fool myself. :P23:49
pupnikhow goes the dosbox mouse battle javispedro23:49
RST38hGAN: But no, it is unlikely to be THE event, should just bring some determination to the future plans23:49
javispedropupnik: I made a custom "protocol" for a ps2 absolute mouse, and patched the win3.11 mouse driver to use it23:49
javispedroit actually works =)23:50
javispedroexcept in protected mode...23:50
pupnikso you basically just used dx,dy as x,y?23:50
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pupnikbtw drnoksnes fails to compile if GUI=0 in makefile :)23:51
javispedroin the process I learnt that ps2 only has 8bit delta fields, which probably explains why you cannot tap in x=0,y=0 then x=480,y=800 without itself decalibrating23:51
javispedro(it would overflow and move to x=255,y=255)23:51
RST38hactually, ps2 max deltas are smaller than that23:51
RST38hand there are overflow bits in the status it reports, as well23:52
* RST38h vaguely remembers that at some values of the reported deltas Linux starts going nuts23:52
pupnikdosbox is having trouble with deltas from synergyc as well23:53
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pupnikhi chem|st23:57
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GAN900Wee, almost done with work.23:58

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