IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2010-11-24

MohammadAGze fuck?00:00
korhojoaprobably under /media00:00
korhojoaor something00:00
thpNooBmonk3y: no / at the beginning00:00
korhojoanot /00:00
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NooBmonk3ygreg@zingelspc:/media/FreeAgent Drive/QTHealthcheck/Healthcheck$ git push origin master00:03
NooBmonk3yPermission denied (publickey).00:03
NooBmonk3yfatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly00:03
NooBmonk3ythis is why i dont like git :p00:03
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MohammadAGdid you do git init and all that stuff?00:04
MohammadAGand put your ssh key on gitorious.org00:04
NooBmonk3ythe instructions didnt say that lol00:04
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jacekowskii just don't understand why people like git so much00:04
NooBmonk3yerm nope lol00:04
jacekowskisvn is so much better00:04
jacekowskiand so much easier to use00:04
NooBmonk3ygui? :)00:04
MohammadAGcat ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub00:05
MohammadAGpost that on gitorious.org00:05
MohammadAGin add ssh keys00:05
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MohammadAGthen git init; git add .; (instructions from repo on; git commit; git push origin master;00:06
MohammadAGyou only have to repeat the last two steps each time you change files00:06
* MohammadAG goes to bed, gnite :)00:06
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NooBmonk3yi'm almost there!00:07
NooBmonk3yadded keys00:08
pupnik, Infant Confinement Specialists since 200100:08
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thpNooBmonk3y: so i assume you're not interested in improvement suggestions to the "old" healthcheck code anymore?00:09
NooBmonk3yerm, well, kinda ... but realistically, i'm so close to the new one, and it looks better, best to stick with one :)00:09
NooBmonk3yas i'm aiming this one to be a bit more multi-platform00:09
thpdoes the new one already have all the features of the old one?00:10
NooBmonk3yallthough always interested where i went wrong ;)00:10
NooBmonk3yalmost all + some new00:10
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NooBmonk3yit's about 70% of old + more :)00:10
NooBmonk3yso i'm just going through and adding sensor checks and camera checks atm00:11
thpnot "wrong" per se, but i can understand why things are slow00:11
NooBmonk3yahhhhhh :P00:12
NooBmonk3ydare i ask, i went for the "it works approach" over the correct approach?00:12
thpjust wanted to clarify that python isn't slow :p00:13
NooBmonk3ylol i'm not disagreeing :)00:13
NooBmonk3yi actually like python, but stuggled for a while :)00:13
NooBmonk3ymy version may have been slow, though :p00:14
NooBmonk3yprobably due to lack of knowledge :)00:14
Funnyfacemeh for some reason my phone won't pick up HSDPA these days, only UMTS00:14
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Funnyfaceif I use the 3g/2g/dual applet to switch it to GSM only, then back to auto, it normally picks up a HSDPA connection for a while, but then sooner or later it falls back to 3G :>00:15
NooBmonk3ymissus on her way back and 15 mins to wash, clean tidy n sober lol00:15
thpNooBmonk3y: there's just a lot of os.popen with pipes and awk/sed/... in there where you could either open files directly for reading or do the text processing (grep/sed/awk) more efficiently in python00:15
alteregoJust spent an hour doing a configuration dialog ..00:15
alteregoThink I'm losing it ..00:15
alteregoIt's only 5 widgets ..00:15
NooBmonk3ythp,  os.popen i thought opened the file?00:16
NooBmonk3yalthough i understand awk etc reads them and plays with them to get the bits i need00:16
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NooBmonk3ylol alterego00:16
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thpNooBmonk3y: it opens a process ("p"open)00:16
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thpand if you have a pipe, you open a new process for every part of the pipe (cat ... | grep ... | awk ...)00:17
thperm.. actually, the "p" in popen stands for pipe according to the docs..00:18
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thpbut yeah, it still opens a process, which is slow00:19
alteregopython startup times on maemo are horrible as soon as you start using hildon/gtk or Qt bindings.00:20
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alteregopython actually starts up pretty quickly if you're not importing any of that ..00:21
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mikhasso python import is actually slow?00:21
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thpyes, it loads the libraries00:22
alteregoNo, python importing gtk is slow00:22
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alteregoIt's more likely in the gtk/hildon bindings than it is python import00:22
thp..which loads the gtk libraries00:22
alteregoSome crazy crap in their initialization.00:22
alteregothp indeed.00:23
mikhaswell yes, sure loads the libs ;-) but other apps have to do that, too00:23
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mikhasalterego, you easily verify that by trying to import different libs/different parts of GTK (doesnt python have this "import foo from blah"?), and measure it00:24
mikhas*you could easily verify that00:24
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thp"import foo from blah" still needs to load the whole library - it only affects what gets imported into the local namespace00:24
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thpand you should run a profiler if you really want to know where the loading time is going, i don't know :p00:25
mikhaswell, I kinda doubt it's the lib loading per se ...00:25
thploading + initialization00:26
alteregomikhas: that's just handling namespace.00:27
alteregoThat and gtk is one module ..00:27
alteregoWell, and gdk00:27
mikhasoh, you can use import inside functions ...00:27
mikhaspython is funky00:27
alteregoSure, you could do it asynchronously ^.^00:27
alteregoIt'll bever be as good as native code though.00:28
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alteregoAnd C++ is easy enough to become dangerous in with little effort.00:28
mikhasgood for you if you feel that C++ is easy00:29
mikhasyou must be a natural talent ;-)00:29
alteregoI don't think it's easy,00:29
alteregoI think it's easy to learn and become dangerous in ;)00:30
alteregoTo learn it fully, well, that's something else.00:30
mikhasI dont think I get your point00:30
alteregoWell, nevermind.00:31
alteregoI have one more dialog to refactor.00:31
alteregoWaypoints and POI00:31
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alteregoIn Qt Mobility we can inhibit screen lock, which is good for my app because you want it to stay on, but I was thinking, I'd like to be able to explicitly lock the device and not have it unlock it next time it polls the screensaver inhibit procedure.00:43
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alteregoSo something sends out events through dbus when the GPS is on :D00:45
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alteregoFor position information, satellite status etc, that's cool.00:45
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pupnikjavispedro not around eh01:13
pupnikhi SpeedEvil101:14
* SpeedEvil1 sighs.01:14
pupnikwhat's the news01:14
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BCMMwill maemo mind if i edit /etc/hostname?01:28
BCMMalso, will it stay edited?01:28
jacekowskino, yes01:28
jacekowskiwhat's the point01:28
jacekowskimost of stuff there is based on bluetooth name anyways01:29
BCMMthe stuff where?01:29
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BCMMwell, for a start it would distinguish mine on router config screens01:30
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jacekowskion phone01:31
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BCMMi mean, what stuff? you mean things like the filemanager?01:31
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dolplasipalatsi.. mmm :D02:17
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pupnikvery nice, the meego conferences are playable without flash - just view page source ans search for .flv02:31
pupnikfor example02:31
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lolcatNo luck with fmms04:57
lolcatWhere do I put this in?04:59
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lolcatI got fMMS to work!05:05
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djszapiCould someone manage a working doc viewer on N900 ??06:01
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doc|homedjszapi: I haven't tried but abiword worked on the n800. I don't know if there's an n900 specific port.06:04
djszapiI did not see, just freoffice which causes a segfault during the startup...06:05
djszapito be honest, I would have a bit distinct expectation about an 'official' package...06:06
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pupnikdjszapi: if you mean a document viewer, there are many.  If you mean the microsoft .doc file format, what would you be willing to pay for one?06:49
pupnikyou could also do a good thing for humanity and bounce back .doc files as unreadable06:50
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Choomthe spec is available, so it's pretty readable --
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erstazior could run OpenOffice07:01
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DocScrutinizeror ask "his boss" why there's no such reader07:06
pupnik.doc isn't a document format.  at least not as long as whatever is supposed to parse it must handle 5+ different formats.07:09
pupnikmaybe you could call it a family of formats07:09
pupnikand microsoft chose - as a strategic ploy - to do this, in order that a free document viewer would be prohibitely expensive to implement07:11
pupniknot to mention competitor word processors07:11
pupnikthe economic harm of this jackassery is difficult to estimate, but if you think to your document-formatting headaches throughout your life, much of that could have been avoided07:12
* erstazi misses this channel (used to come here when the 770 first came out). Still waiting on his free t-shirt from one of the Nokia guys07:12
pupnikit was nice when we were the only game in town, erstazi07:13
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pupnikmaybe a little too sleepy07:13
erstazitalking about my free t-shirt07:13
erstazianyhow, recently,… I bought a n900 and I am excited as my 770 was white-screened about a year ago by a step-child. << never let children touch your tech equipment07:14
pupniki vaguely remember your nick07:15
pupnikcongrats erstazi :)  like it so far?07:16
erstazipupnik: this was 5~ years ago,… so I don't expect you to remember07:16
pupnikfor me, it's the _only_ cool device on the market07:16
erstazipupnik: haven't received it yet. it is in the mail. I think I got a steal on it since I only paid 220€07:17
erstazibrand new07:17
pupnikcan I order one from you?07:17
erstazipupnik: have you tried MeeGo yet? (I do not like RPM-based distros much, even though I run one on main server)07:18
pupnikyes i have.07:19
erstazisad to see maemo go, honestly. but what are your thoughts on it?07:19
pupnikin some ways it's better than maemo.  it's a foundation. it's open. it's supported by two major vendors not one07:20
pupniki'm sort of sad to see gtk stuff go away07:21
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erstazibut, then again, I was shocked they went with GTK in ITOS 200507:21
erstazisince it is Nokia, that is.07:21
pupnikwhat did you think they would do?07:21
pupniki think gtk was do-able at that time07:22
erstaziI agree07:22
erstazinevermind, Nokia acquired Trolltech in 200807:22
erstazieither way, I might dual boot, not sure yet.07:26
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pupnikerstazi: how about running a changeroot on n900 with two x-servers - one maemo and one meego?07:38
pupnikwonder if it's possible07:38
erstazipupnik: hmmm, I am up for the challenge (:07:41
ieatlinti don't think it's realistic to run more than one x server on a system07:42
pupnikmaybe X can arbitrate between two OS's but the rest of the devices wouldn't support that out of the box07:42
pupnikieatlint: i do it on my PC fairly frequently07:42
ieatlinti recall being given some very in depth reasoning why...07:42
ieatlintthere's no reason to run two x servers though, it's fully possible to just run 1 server for both methinks07:43
erstazimaybe it is similar to our mothers telling us not to double-dip?07:43
ieatlintheh, alright then07:44
ieatlintwould still be unadvisable on the n900 if you look at how much ram x uses07:45
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DocScrutinizerhow would you share other resources? battery charging, accelerometers, notification LEDs, audio... all not designed to run with two concurrently active systems07:48
DocScrutinizerwlan, mass storage mode, BT...07:49
ieatlintsome awesome race conditions is how07:51
DocScrutinizera chroot might be fine to runn meego userland apps, but for sure you'll not run a whole system this way07:51
ieatlintjust saw a presentation from the guys who did fcam07:53
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ieatlintthey did some weird stuff to get fcam working, heh07:54
ieatlintbut they seem to have some interesting stuff still coming07:55
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thpkhertan_: did you manage to implement the hildon notification stuff? forgot to mention that you have to kill hildon-desktop after the config file change (or reboot)08:02
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khertan_thp, i ve carrefully note it in my todo list and will do it this morning in the train ;)08:03
khertan_thanks for the tips08:03
khertan_i must go on ... going to office. Bye08:03
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lolcatdo n900 support videocalls?08:20
wmaroneover skype yes08:21
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jase21Hi, I have a doubt. When I connect to internet, I get a notification on maemo update. Should I do that? If so will I get PR 1.3? Or should I connect to pc and flash it using flasher?10:42
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jacekowskitry to update on phone10:43
jacekowskibut make a backup10:43
jacekowskias it may fail10:43
jacekowskior just will happen at all10:43
jacekowskiand if it fails, then you can flash it with pc10:43
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jacekowskior you can play with it to make it work10:43
jacekowskibut just flashing it is faster10:44
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jase21jacekowski I'll try update via phone first :) Will the inbuit backup utility suffice?10:44
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jacekowskijust backup to sd card10:45
jase21jacekowski: ok.10:45
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jase21I don't have skype in N900 at present. How will I know whether I'm running global version?10:46
RobbieThe1stIt really doesn't matter what version you had before flashing10:47
RobbieThe1stIt'll flash no matter what10:47
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jase21okay. Is global version the superset of all the versions?10:47
RobbieThe1stI think so. Or, at least, there's nothing disabled in it10:48
RobbieThe1stCompared to the USA version, I'm not sure what real difference there is. Others may have some features disabled10:48
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JaffaMorning, all10:56
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zeevHi! Please help! how can I undelete files that I've removed from my N900 with rm -rf11:20
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zeevis it possible to recover it somehow?11:23
Appiahcan recover files11:24
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ieatlintthat would only work on the sd card11:24
RobbieThe1stWait... why?11:25
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ieatlintthe mmc is ubifs if i recall right, which isn't a supported fs11:25
RobbieThe1stActually, provided the files are on the MyDocs, wouldn't any Windows/fat32 undelete utility work?11:25
ieatlintah, right, i always forget that mydocs is fat32 :P11:26
RobbieThe1stieatlint: Actually, it's the rootfs that's ubifs. Optfs is ext2 also.11:26
ieatlintok, it'd work on the sd card or mydocs11:26
zeevso I can use fat32 undelete?11:26
zeevor testdisk?11:26
RobbieThe1stTry fat32 undelete first11:26
RobbieThe1stif it doesn't work...11:26
zeevis there such thing in linux?11:27
zeevin mtools?11:27
ieatlintzeev: oh, and don't write *anything* to the disk11:27
ieatlintso for instance, say it's in mydocs, don't write anything into mydocs (or run an application that will write something there)11:28
zeevshould I connect it via usb to my computer or do it on n900 itself?11:28
RobbieThe1stConnect to computer11:28
lcukzeev, how did you accidentally manage to do that?  did you fall on your phone, open a console window, somehow manage to randomly type a command and enter it?11:29
timeless_mbpandre__: i got nokia'd?11:29
RobbieThe1stYou can easily have it unmounted, and have more tools available11:29
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zeevok I'll try it right now...11:29
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zeevdoes anybody know an equivalent of dos's undelete for linux?11:34
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zeevis it for fat32?11:36
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kerioso... metamaterials can boost antennas just by existing11:39
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zeevhow can I create an image of disk and work with it for recovery?11:43
zeev(in order not to damage the phone)11:43
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jacekowskiRobbieThe1st: i think usa version has some limitation on fmtx11:44
RobbieThe1stHuh; perhaps so. The fmtx addon fixes that, though11:45
zeevAppiah: could you, please, provide the full command (I'm not so advanced and a bit nervous :) )11:45
Appiah check the examples11:46
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zeevdoes it look ok: dd if=/dev/sdb of=/home/user/diskimage ?11:48
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edheldilzeev: almost. I would add bs=65536 or st. like that11:49
RobbieThe1stYea. I'd add a "bs=4096" at the end though11:49
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zeevwhich one :) ?11:49
RobbieThe1st4096 - 4kb, which is the block size of flash blocks11:49
zeevlet's go...11:50
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edheldilzeev: noooooooooo!11:50
RobbieThe1st65536 = 16k, or 4 blocks at once. it won't hurt eithher way, but I'm not sure which is faster11:51
edheldil645536 is actually 64kB11:51
zeevwhile its working - what should be the next step?11:51
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RobbieThe1stYea, that sounds right. so what..16 blocks at once. Same diff11:52
edheldilzeev: mount it w/ "sudo mount -o loop file /some/dir"11:53
edheldilreplace "file" and "somedir"11:53
edheldilwith st. sensible11:53
zeevok... and testdisk?11:53
edheldilhmmm. maybe do not mount it, actually11:53
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zeevedheldil: so, what's better for testdisk? (its what I have on my distro)11:55
edheldilI do not have testdisk. Look into man how it works11:56
RobbieThe1st"man testdisk"11:56
edheldileither it needs mounted fs (then use the mount above), or a block? device, (then use losetup to create it from a file)11:57
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mecealterego, ping11:58
zeevhow long should dd take?11:59
mecezee, how big and on what device?11:59
jacekowskion nand, seconds11:59
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RobbieThe1stIf it's the 28GB Fat32 disk... you're talking 10mb/sec or so...11:59
mecezeev, 2Gig takes 45 minutes in mydocs.11:59
jacekowskiwhat is and exact command you are using?11:59
zeevdd if=/dev/sdb of=/home/zeev/diskimage bs=409612:00
jacekowskiwhat command exactly are you using?12:00
mecezeev, well that's what it took when I did it.12:00
mecehow big is sdb?12:00
zeevI don't know - its N900's partition12:01
RobbieThe1stIt's the MyDocs partition(right?) so 28GB or so12:01
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zeevthe problem is - when I click on the diskimage file in gnome it shows the same filesize12:02
zeevfor a while already12:02
zeevlike its not growing12:02
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RobbieThe1sttry CDing there and typing "ls -l ./filename"12:02
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RobbieThe1stYou can then keep tabs on it with "watch -n 5 ls -l ./filename" - It'll auto update the current size every 5 seconds12:03
jacekowskiwell, 10-15M/s12:03
jacekowskiand you have 28G12:03
jacekowskido the meth12:03
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zeevso I can see it growing12:03
zeevthank you!12:03
jacekowskiyou can do killall -USR1 dd12:04
jacekowskiand it will make dd print current status12:04
zeevenough time to learn how testdisk works12:04
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zeevjust one more question: if I did wrote to the partition after the deletion - how bad is it? is only files that got overwritten are lost - or everything can be lost?12:05
RobbieThe1stI'd do "killall -USR1 `pidof dd`" which -does- work if only one DD instance is running.12:05
RobbieThe1stOnly things overwritten12:05
timeless_mbpzeev: it's hard to know12:05
timeless_mbpyou basically want to stop writing ASAP12:05
jacekowskiit's not going to work with pidof12:06
zeevI do not write - but the phone is on12:06
zeevI hope it doesn't writes there on its own12:06
jacekowskiif you give it pid then you have to use kill12:06
timeless_mbpzeev: it will do some writes12:06
zeevanyway I can't switch it off  - I dd it12:07
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RobbieThe1stjacekowski: Erm... try it yourself. It -does- work12:07
zeevI think I made 2 photos after the deletion which are saved in mydocs...12:07
timeless_mbptimeless 69041   0.0  0.0  2434896    568 s006  T    12:07PM   0:00.01 man killall12:08
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:~ timeless$ killall 6904112:08
timeless_mbpNo matching processes belonging to you were found12:08
timeless_mbpit's possible that busybox killall is nice12:08
timeless_mbpbut it certainly isn't a cross platform promise on killall12:08
RobbieThe1stOh, wait...12:08
RobbieThe1stI meant "kill -USR1 `pidof dd`"12:09
timeless_mbpKILLALL(1)                BSD General Commands Manual               KILLALL(1)12:09
timeless_mbp     killall [-delmsvz] [-help] [-u user] [-t tty] [-c procname] [-SIGNAL]12:09
timeless_mbp             [procname ...]12:09
jacekowskiRobbieThe1st: it's same thing12:09
jacekowskiRobbieThe1st: i mean killall -USR1 dd or kill -USR1 `pidof dd`12:10
RobbieThe1stOh, ok.12:10
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RobbieThe1stI just tried the latter, and it's working. Which was my point12:10
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: on your busybox system i hope?12:11
* timeless_mbp wouldn't trust behaviors from a standard gnu or bsd app to apply on busybox12:11
RobbieThe1stNope; on my bash-based Debian desktop12:11
RobbieThe1stHe was using a computer too, so it's a fair thing12:11
RobbieThe1st*desktop/laptop, not n90012:11
zeevis dd's output called raw disk image? (testdisk image.dd to carve a raw disk image)12:11
timeless_mbpis he using it or is he using his n900?12:12
timeless_mbpzeev: dd's output is roughly equivalent to dd's input12:12
timeless_mbpif your input device is a disk, then the output is an image of a disk12:12
RobbieThe1stSo, yes, I suppose it would be a raw disk image12:12
RobbieThe1stIn the case we are talking about12:12
timeless_mbpif the input is a file, the output is a file12:12
zeevI mean how is it called (I'm reading the testdisk manual)12:12
RobbieThe1stGive me a minute; I've got to install it.12:13
zeevits in debian repo12:13
RobbieThe1st"sudo apt-get install testdisk"... It does take a minute though.12:14
RobbieThe1stAnyway, I'd try "testdisk /home/zeev/diskimage"12:14
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meceSince there are not enough twitter clients I'm thinking on making one for maemo, meego and symbian. Goal being to have it flexible enough to be nice on both handset and netbook.12:41
keriomece: you mean, like, a browser?12:41
RobbieThe1stMake it with Python, so it's usable like just about everywhere?12:41
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mecekerio, no.12:41
meceRobbieThe1st, qml+qt12:42
RobbieThe1stThat could work, I suppose... but running it stock on a Linux desktop would be harder I think.12:42
RobbieThe1stAnd, I dunno about compiling it for Windows/OSX...12:43
meceRobbieThe1st, well I meant meego netbook.12:43
RobbieThe1stWhy limit yourself to that, though?12:43
meceRobbieThe1st, well I wont, but I want to use qml.12:43
RobbieThe1stI mean, if you right true cross-platform code, it'll run on -everything-12:43
meceRobbieThe1st, possibly. We'll see :)12:43
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RobbieThe1st<_< After looking at the language on Wikipedia, I think XML12:46
RobbieThe1st*XUL's better12:47
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edheldilI regret that there's no way to mark some packages as crap on tmo such that it would display when installing the packages on n900 ;-)12:49
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lollooايش اخبارك12:59
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zeevRobbieThe1st, and others: thank you very much!!!! I got most (if not all) of my stuff recovered - fotos of my small children from period of several years... Thanks God!... now my wife will not kill me!13:06
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thpzeev: do backups now so that she won't kill you in the future :p13:08
zeevyea... now I will13:08
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Firzengreetings :-)13:16
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Firzenis there anyone who can help me with my problem? (here is the link:
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lolloodoes Maemo SDK work on windows?13:19
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thplolloo: you can use the Nokia Qt SDK, afaik it has madde, so you can build Qt-based maemo apps on windows13:21
plr_what thp said13:21
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lolloowow nice, is it newer than the original nokia SDK?13:23
thplolloo: what do you mean by "original nokia sdk"? scratchbox-based maemo sdk?13:23
lollooQt-based is better than Nokia SDK?13:24
thp"better" depends on what you want to do13:24
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infoboti heard better is not always the best route.13:25
lolloooh man that's a relief, I was struggling to install nokia sdk on ubuntu virtual machine13:25
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thplolloo: yes, for third party apps that you might want to port to meego/symbian later, Nokia Qt SDK is the way to go. it also comes with a nice IDE :p13:26
lollooawesome, you saved me alot of time!13:26
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CokeI'm trying to install a certificate in my browser, reading the post it refers to two applications that I do not have "file manager" and "certificate manager". Can do this from a terminal and avoid having to install loads of extra apps just to get the cert into the browser?13:34
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CokeWell, the cert manager is in the settings I guess.13:35
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timeless_mbpfile manager would be in utilities if you use catorize13:37
alteregoand File Manager is installed by default13:37
* timeless_mbp ponders13:38
timeless_mbpi don't think you can *uninstall* either of them13:38
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CokeIt says the cert is expired, check the dates, and I check the dates and im OK with that, but cant continue to install it13:40
timeless_mbpcertman is kinda annoying13:40
timeless_mbpcheck your n900's clock13:40
timeless_mbpit's generally broken13:40
Cokeit IS expired13:40
CokeI don't care.13:40
Cokeit works in firefox on the desktop13:41
timeless_mbpthere's a commandline you can use to install it13:41
timeless_mbpi complained to the guy who did this a few weeks ago13:41
timeless_mbpthis may be fixed in harmattan13:41
timeless_mbpthere's a MfE wiki page which talks about how to install a cert from the commandline13:41
timeless_mbpone of the flags (-i? -a?) iirc will let you install it anyway13:41
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timeless_mbppersonally, i wrote a script to move the clock around13:41
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Cokeflags to what command?13:41
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timeless_mbp has the code i was using13:42
timeless_mbpdon't install the deb, but look at how it does work13:42
* timeless_mbp has to go to work13:42
timeless_mbpi /think/ i filed a bug in for this13:43
timeless_mbpsearch reporter contains timeless + changed in 2m13:43
timeless_mbp(don't limit by status/resolution)13:43
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Coke"search reported contains timeless" ?13:44
CokeWhat is "search reporter" and "timeless" ?13:44
timeless_mbpif you want to see if i filed a bug13:45
timeless_mbpgo away13:45
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CokeI guess I could generate new certificates that aren't expired.13:46
timeless_mbpthat'd be the smart plan..13:46
CokeI explicitly told the ssh tools to use 7300 days, but that shit ignored it and just made a year13:46
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Termanagood morning13:48
CokeGood afternoon13:49
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lolloogood afternoon13:50
CokeOh, how does one make a tilde with the N900 keyboard? Can I configure the default terminal to have more keys in the bottom menu?13:50
psycho_oreos1) shift sym/ctrl 2) maybe with keyboard mod app13:51
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Cokepsycho_oreos: shift + sym + 2 does not produce a tilde13:52
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Cokethp: not really what I want...13:52
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CokeThe terminal has ctrl, tab, esc, pgup and pgdown. Can I add my own there?13:52
CokeIt's basically only in the terminal I need tilde13:52
psycho_oreosCoke, shift + sym and it'll come up with more keyboard keys on the screen, you just choose the one you want13:52
CokeMaybe I need to install something13:53
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Cokethp: thanks!13:55
CokeBut psycho_oreos suggestion sounds even nicer13:55
CokeI always wondered why there's no virtual keyboard in maemo13:55
Cokesometimes I want chars that are not available, would be nice to get that shift + sym thing working13:56
thpCoke: it's [bluekey]+sym if you want that "special char palette"13:57
thpthen touch the tilde and press space and it's there13:58
thp(you need the space, because tilde is a dead key that you could theoretically combine with e.g. "a")13:58
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Cokeno special char palette14:02
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Cokethe char palette comes up in about 1/20 presses on sym+blue arrow to the right14:03
CokeOh I see. I have to press blue arrow FIRST, then add SYM and finally release14:03
Cokequite akward14:03
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alteregoWeird, just restarted my N900 and MyDocs came up read only14:07
* alterego restarts again14:08
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BCMMhas anyone else had a problem in which the n900 will not play any audio?14:16
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BCMMno media player, no mplayer, no calls, and not even little interface noises like the window close sound14:16
BCMMalso, the volume buttons don't bring up an OSD14:16
BCMModdly, restarting doesn't fix it; i have to take the battery out14:16
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CokeHow come the terminal doesn't save history when I quit it?14:18
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CokeI dont even have a .bash_history any more, yet there are some commands stored in the history I can access, but they are old14:19
CokeIt's starting to get annoying having to write the same stuff over and over again now.14:19
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andre__Coke: "how come"? Software has boogs I have heard :-)14:21
Cokeandre__: I think bash has been working for as long as I can remember14:22
andre__Coke, ? how do you mean?14:22
CokeThere's no bug in bash14:22
Cokeunless there's a custom patch on it or something weird14:23
BCMMCoke: are you using bash?14:23
Cokegood question14:23
povbotBug 5317: Shell does not save command history / Busybox doesn't handle SIGHUP properly14:23
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Cokebleh, /bin/sh14:23
andre__not fixed in Maemo5, fixed in Harmattan, no "me too!" comments please14:23
CokeWhat a sucky bug14:23
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andre__plus is also annoying14:24
povbotBug 7014: ash saves only 15 lines of history14:24
CokeThe terminal is the only tool I use.14:24
CokeI forgot this shit uses buggybox14:24
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edheldilare these bugs at all?14:25
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CokeOk, well, my MAIN problem is this: I have a certificate that expires 2019, yet maemo cert manager insist it expires in june 2010. Can I 1) ignore the bug in cert manager or 2) convince it to read the date properly ?14:25
timeless_mbpCoke: file a bug and attach the cert14:25
Coketimeless_mbp: so there's no way of telling the application that I, as a user, don't really care what it thinks?14:25
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CokeThe cert expires Nov 21 12:05:26 2020 GMT14:27
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Cokesomehow cert manager reads that as june 9 201914:27
Coke(for the issuer)14:27
andre__timeless_mbp: useless instruction, please don't tell people to waste time14:27
Cokeand june 20 2010 for the client14:27
andre__filing a bug for platform stuff: as long as it's not something major Nokia won't fix it for Maemo514:27
alteregoYou don't think its' major?14:28
edheldileven if Nokia does not bother to fix it, it's still better to document it, no?14:29
CokeActually, something is really broken with the cert manager14:29
CokeI dont' know where it looks when I browse N90014:29
Cokehow do I just access my homedir ?14:29
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils14:29
CokeI have 31G free14:30
Cokeperhaps they could have used some of that space for some decent utils14:30
edheldilYou are lucky to have shell at all, though14:31
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CokeOh well, guess I have to put it under MyDocs for any apps to use it14:32
CokeSo what now? Everybody waiting for the Intel MeeGo to be ported to ARM?14:33
DocScrutinizerandre__: I don't think it's a good strategy to quiet people with the rationale "Nokia won't fix it anyway"14:33
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CokeAlso, does Nokia have to fix it? Isn't it community driven?14:33
andre__DocScrutinizer: I don't want to quiet people at all. I don't want people to waste their time.14:33
DocScrutinizerandre__: shut down bugtracker if you don't like to see new tickets14:33
andre__DocScrutinizer, sounds like a plan.14:34
andre__I want to see important ones though14:34
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andre__so not a good plan ;-)14:34
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CableTwitchSo, I've had my 2nd phone die on me now XD14:34
DocScrutinizeraha, and who decides about which ones are important? you??14:34
CableTwitchIf you want me to, I can?14:35
* CableTwitch declares the red ones to be of the utmost importance.14:35
CokeIsn't the whole point of open source projects that you don't need Nokia's blessing?14:35
andre__(though that's the default fields.html. Hmm, a bug.)14:36
CableTwitchThis may or may not be a good thing to ask, but I'm getting dribbly results from the official source... is there a community torrent of the PR1.3 firmware?14:36
CokeIn any case, is it confirmed that meego will be the next thing? If not, Maemo will need more support.14:36
CableTwitchAlso, what does it mean when the LED does sod all when you power up, the device sits on the Nokia logo for about 30 seconds, then the screen powers down ever-so-slowly?14:37
CableTwitchI seem to have a knack for making things not work no more.14:37
Cokesounds like your phone is broken14:38
CokeNever had that happen to me14:38
CableTwitchIts possible, as its a wonderful refurb.14:38
DocScrutinizercharge battery?14:38
CableTwitchI broke the USB connector out of the first one, and Vodafone gave me a lovely replacement, and said mine couldnt be fixed.14:38
CableTwitchFunny, they sent it to Nokia too.14:38
CableTwitchDoc: Battery is fully charged.14:38
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CokeIve had my for, hm, almost a year, been on the last 86 days without restart so I would have to test.14:39
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: actually looks like hw problem. Can you take a video and post14:39
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CableTwitchThe funny thing is this... I was using it on wifi only while in the states, when, after reading an email, it decided to freeze up on me. Nothing out of the ordinary, as the firmware wasnt even PR1.2 at this point. So I restarted it... and it never woke up beyond the above description.14:39
CableTwitchI can do, doc.14:40
Cokeandre__: so what's gonna happen? No more updates?14:40
andre__Coke: Huh? I didn't say that14:40
CokeNo, I'm asking14:40
andre__Well, ask Nokia...14:40
CableTwitchthe only downside is that I'm not linux expert (not even technically a user), so probing the internals from a linux desktop is A) Beyond me, and B) I dont run linux anyway.14:40
Cokeandre__: I thought they didn't run that show14:40
CableTwitchI DID manage to update it to PR1.3, it would appear, but no joy.14:41
CokeCableTwitch: it's a joyless world14:41
CableTwitchGoing to try one last go with the eMMC as well, and if that doesnt work, another trip to the Voda store...14:41
CableTwitchHeres another funny thing...14:41
andre__Coke: official Maemo5 releases? Yes, that's Nokia's area.14:41
CableTwitchPlug it into the power, or the USB lead without activating the upload mode, and the device powers on, and tries to boot.14:42
Cokeandre__: don't really care if they are official. i run the extra and dev repos as well14:42
CableTwitchIt has gotten as far as the flashing dots a few times, but no further.14:42
andre__Coke, that's a completely different topic14:42
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CableTwitchSo, now I'm DLing the 1.3 release again, in order to do the flash+emmc.14:42
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: sounds like weak battery14:42
MohammadAGCableTwitch, backup your mmc and flash it14:42
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CableTwitchDownloading at 18k/s... :O(14:43
CableTwitchDoc: Does it from the mains as well.14:43
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, or a broken eMMC, thus opitfication fails and therefore, bootup goes into an infinite loop14:43
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: there's no "from mains"14:43
CableTwitchNow... does anyone know of a faster location to get the 1.3 release, bar nokias pitifully slow site?14:43
CableTwitchDoc: Oh goody.14:44
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: as well possible14:44
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MohammadAGCableTwitch, their site gives me good speeds14:44
CableTwitchAhh, yes. One more thing... I did have it showing a solid yellow LED at points, which I belive is when the battery is below 3.7v?14:44
MohammadAGand no, at least not legally14:44
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MohammadAGor when bme fails to start and battery is low14:45
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: or wrong flashing sequence, with a boot in between14:45
CableTwitchHmm. You'd think might host a torrent of it, for easy access. Or do nokia not like the idea of that?14:45
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, yep14:45
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CableTwitchThe battery appeared to charge fine after a while, and ened the charge cycle on a green LED, but still no joy.14:45
MohammadAGCableTwitch, only nokia can host the image14:45
MohammadAGtorrents mean others will be uploading14:45
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: odd. reflash14:46
CableTwitchBum. I'd better go shout at VM then14:46
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CableTwitchDoc: The unit died BEFORE I flashed it, which was odd. It just seemed to kill itself.14:46
CableTwitchCrashed, restarted, and went into alzheimers boot-loop14:46
DocScrutinizerok, that's a clear "perster seller"14:46
DocScrutinizerpester even14:47
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: unless you unstalled power kernel, or mobile hotspot14:47
CableTwitchYaya, 15.4MB done so far, only 2 hours 46 to go...14:47
DocScrutinizerinstalled (damn I miss my coffee)14:48
CableTwitchDoc: The unit was untouched, apart from installing previous software that I had on it before.14:48
CableTwitchSome software didnt install, due to it being the wrong PR14:48
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: unless you unstalled power kernel, or mobile hotspot14:48
CableTwitchAnd waaaaaaait a minute....14:48
CableTwitchI dont use power kernel or mobile hotspot.14:48
DocScrutinizerhmm, k14:49
CableTwitchI DID manage to get WifiEye installed, although it wouldnt run. I wonder if that threw something into the works?14:49
DocScrutinizeranyway try reflashing14:49
CableTwitchI shall.14:49
CableTwitchI hope to hell its not hardware related. I really dont want to wait for another unit again XD14:49
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RobbieThe1stI doubt it; probably a dumb eMMC/optfs issue.14:50
CableTwitchThe sad thing about the first one is that shortly after sending it off, I realised my local hackspace has an SMC hot-air rework station. I could have replaced the bloody USB port myself... *cries*14:50
* MohammadAG hates hardware problems14:50
CableTwitchDoes the eMMC have moments where it corrupts itself then?14:51
CableTwitchOr something else might cause it to go a bit loopy?14:51
RobbieThe1stIt did on me, once. Still not sure why14:51
CableTwitchFor all I know, it might have been cosmic radiation.14:51
CableTwitchWhich would figure, oddly. I WAS pretty much on the equator... direct hit, mental firmware ahoy!14:52
RobbieThe1stLiterally out of the blue, the Optfs corrupted and it wouldn't boot. After diagnosing the problem, I restored an optfs backup image(thanks to my own software) and that solved the problem14:52
CableTwitchSomething else... it wouldnt pick up GPS that day either. Nothing above me, I had the relevant map installed, and it wouldnt find anything.14:52
RobbieThe1stWho knows.14:52
CableTwitchRobbie: I've seen your posts, and I might be tempted to see how you did that.14:52
CableTwitchIF this attempt fails miserably. But like I said earlier, if it involves a linux desktop, I'm a bit fubar.14:53
CableTwitchhowever, its going to take me a good 3 hours or so to get to that point, courtesy of something playing silly buggers with my net speed.14:53
RobbieThe1stIt's all GPL licensed shell-script. And, the benefit of my setup is it -doesn't- require a PC for -most- stuff.14:53
CableTwitchHow does it work then?14:54
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: there've been bootloops because of SIM with odd contact or SMS data on it14:54
CableTwitchMr Device doesnt boot, so it needs something external to cause it to play nice.14:54
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DocScrutinizertry booting without SIM and without uSD14:54
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CableTwitchDoc: No SMS or contacts added after I arrived in the US. I was there for 3 weeks, it dies on the 2nd to last day.14:55
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CableTwitchOh, and I've tried removing everything, no dice.14:55
CableTwitchAt this point, I might place it in a pyramid and sacrafice a black lamb to the gods in order to make it better.14:55
RobbieThe1stBootmenu-n900 starts a script right at the beginning of the boot process if the keyboard is open. My script runs right there, makes a ramdisk, and chroots into it - From there, backing up or restoring stuff to the rootfs/optfs/whatever is easy, because it's not being accessed14:55
DocScrutinizerwon't help :-P14:56
CableTwitchWhich, my method or his script?14:56
CableTwitchRobbie: I take it you place that on the SD card?14:56
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RobbieThe1stWell, it won't help -this- problem currently. I mean... you've got to install it first.14:56
MohammadAGboth :P14:56
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: chroot or pivotroot14:57
CableTwitchAhhh, its a pre-disaster recovery doohicky.14:57
CableTwitchOh, you son of a bitch... one second14:57
RobbieThe1stActually, I keep all I need(around ~100kb) on the rootfs. I generate the ramdisk on-the-fly from maemo files. And I use chroot.14:57
DocScrutinizerchroot isn't the right thing for leaving real root alone14:58
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DocScrutinizeryou'll need pivotroot for this14:58
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RobbieThe1stWhat happens? I mean... I was able to umount the ubifs, so I -assume- things work OK...?14:58
CableTwitchGoddamnit, stupid bloody switch went mental, which would account for the crappy download speeds.14:59
CableTwitchThere we go... 1.9MB/s... better now14:59
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CableTwitch10 seconds till its done XD15:00
CableTwitchIts many, many years old, and it sometimes loses the plot. You can tell when its gone mental because the traffic lights flash constantly.15:01
CableTwitchIts old, but its mostly reliable, and it was only a tenner.15:01
CableTwitchSoooo. thats the eMMC and the PR1.3 done15:01
CableTwitchTime to flash...15:01
CableTwitchA question... better to go for the global PR1.3, or whack the UK PR1.2 on it?15:02
BCMMi'm still not sure what hte point of UK releases is15:03
BCMMthey all support UK english15:03
RobbieThe1stHm; near as I can figure, chroot will work in my case due to it being the init thread I'm running on; and the fact that it -can- unmount the old rootfs, so it's working right anyway. I'll look at pivotroot later, though.15:03
DocScrutinizerpivot_root used to switch e.g. from initrd to real rootfs15:04
CableTwitchRight, lets flash this bastard...15:04
RobbieThe1stWell, be that as it may, it still -works-, for whatever reason. So, no reason to panic, I don't think.15:05
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RobbieThe1stAnd if it didn't work right(not able to umount rootfs), it would give an error, so that should be good enough until I can figure out pivot_root.15:05
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: yes, usually you backup systems in init S state, not even in chroot. I guess it's ok15:05
kerio O.o15:06
keriothat's brilliant15:06
DocScrutinizerjust saying chroot isn't the right tool15:06
CableTwitchAt least it flashes.15:06
RobbieThe1stHm, I'm curious - is there a page detailing the n900's boot sequence compared to a "desktop" distro's boot sequence?15:07
RobbieThe1stI know there are some difference15:07
DocScrutinizerlol, alas not15:07
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RobbieThe1stI'm going to have to look into that at some point... Anyway, I'm off now.15:08
CableTwitchOh hell no....15:08
CableTwitchThe stupid thing tried to reboot.15:08
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DocScrutinizeromit -R !!15:08
RobbieThe1stremove the "-R".15:08
CableTwitchI DID15:08
RobbieThe1stOh, and for anyone who cares:
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CableTwitchIts stalled on the Nokai screen again...15:09
CableTwitchI wonder... if I power it down, and reattach it to the PC in install mode... can we recover this...15:09
alteregoAnyone know a good program for Linux that allows you to view NMEA logs?15:09
DocScrutinizerfirst boot can take minutes15:09
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CableTwitchI'm waiting, but its just sitting at the dim nokia logo, like its in upload mode. But no USB symbol.15:10
CableTwitchI havent done the eMMC though15:10
DocScrutinizerCableTwitch: we recover everything, we are linux :-P15:10
CableTwitchOh, dots?15:10
CableTwitchAaaand it freezes on the 2nd dot. Again.15:10
CableTwitchI shall wait, however.15:10
CableTwitchUh, huh15:11
CableTwitchBright Nokia screen...15:11
DocScrutinizerwas it amber solid while dim NOKIA?15:11
CableTwitchOh, and its now in its reboot loop. Great.15:11
CableTwitchNo, no LED.15:11
CableTwitchAt this point, I'm no further forward or back than the last time.15:12
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CableTwitchI can TRY and do the eMMC now, if thats likely to make any difference?15:12
DocScrutinizeryou flashed COMBINED?15:12
CableTwitchI flashed PR1.3 global.15:12
CableTwitchCombined, yes15:12
CableTwitchUsing the latest release, both the PR and the eMMC15:13
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CableTwitchWell, I would be using the latest eMMC, but it never quite got that far15:13
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CableTwitchThe hell?15:13
CableTwitchOh, thats gotta be bad.15:13
DocScrutinizerso now try flash VANILLA first, without -R. remove battery when flashing finished. then flash COMBINED again, by sequence "flasher; plug; hold u; insert bat"15:13
CableTwitchWell, it appears during one of its boot cycles, it decided to update the eMMC. I forgot it was still waiting to do so.15:14
CableTwitchOk, I'll wait for it to power down.15:14
CableTwitchThe boot cycle keeps repeating when its plugged into power/USB, but when disconnected, it just loses all interest and fades out.15:15
CableTwitchI have no control over when it decides to restart, however.15:15
DocScrutinizersounds quite like fried hw15:16
CableTwitchright, update mode enabled, its sitting happily.15:16
CableTwitchUpdating the eMMC without the -R15:16
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CableTwitchAaaand no suitable device found.15:16
CableTwitchAaand now its in reboot loop hell again.15:16
DocScrutinizermake *sure* you don't accidentally boot after that15:16
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CableTwitchAt this point, I'm going to have to make sure I dont throw it out of the window.15:17
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DocScrutinizerno, you have to make sure battery is completely charged. Alas that's impossible with only a bootlooping deice15:17
CableTwitchIt DOES eventually charge the battery15:18
DocScrutinizerno it DOES NOT15:18
CableTwitchIt goes solid yellow for a while, then pulsing in charge mode, then solid green when its done.15:18
CableTwitchSo basically, I have a device that cannot charge its battery?15:18
DocScrutinizerso this is a "completely booted" system that does this15:18
CableTwitchI think it gives up after a while.15:19
CableTwitchI know I'm getting that way15:19
DocScrutinizergreen LED means bme is running, means linux proper is running15:19
CableTwitchHuh, so eventually it MUST boot.15:19
DocScrutinizerthe state is called acting_dead15:20
DocScrutinizerand is similar to a init 215:20
DocScrutinizeron a usual system - well kinda15:20
CableTwitchBattery voltage reads 3.98, so it must be charging.15:20
DocScrutinizerthat's ok15:20
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DocScrutinizerand eMMC flahing inadvertedly rebooted?15:21
DocScrutinizereven without -R?15:21
CableTwitchThats the odd thing. If I try to do the eMMC, it cant find the device, even though its in upload mode.15:21
CableTwitchHowever, the device apparently got flashed with it during one of its reboots.15:22
CableTwitchI get a brief yellow LED if I plug the data cable in with no battery15:22
CableTwitchAnd as soon as I put the battery in with the cable attached, the device powers up and tried to boot. Only, with no backlight.15:23
SpeedEvilSome people have experienced emmc hardware failures.15:23
DocScrutinizeryou hold 'u' while it does that15:23
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DocScrutinizerstart flasher, hold 'u', plug in, hold 'u', insert battery, still hold 'u'15:24
CableTwitchOk, it connects to the PC fine when I hold U, and I can flash the FIASCO fine. But if I try and do the eMMC, it cant find the device.15:24
CableTwitchstart flasher, as in get it waiting?15:25
DocScrutinizerthat's incorrect15:25
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DocScrutinizerfinding device is unrelated to what you want to flash15:25
CableTwitchIts updating, excellent15:26
DocScrutinizerwhen it's finished, remove battery, unplug15:26
DocScrutinizerrepeat with COMBINED15:26
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DocScrutinizeras in15:27
DocScrutinizerstart flasher, hold 'u', plug in, hold 'u', insert battery, still hold 'u'15:27
CableTwitchWith or without -R?15:27
DocScrutinizerthat's irrelevant for second flashing15:27
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CableTwitchIts flashing15:27
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DocScrutinizerwith -R it shall try to boot your new system after flashing of COMBINED finished15:27
DocScrutinizerwithout, you have to do that15:28
CableTwitchWell, fingers crossed15:28
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CableTwitchOk, done. Pull battery now?15:29
CableTwitchNeed to restart it.15:29
DocScrutinizerif you had no -R then yes15:29
CableTwitchStill no power-on LED... thats not good.15:30
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CableTwitchNo-go. I think we're looking at dead hardware.15:30
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DocScrutinizeryes. sorry for you15:31
CableTwitchThe Nokia logo comes on, bright screen... hangs for about 15 seconds, then the backlight goes out, the logo fades to nothing, wiuth a few stripes...15:31
CableTwitchOh well. Off to the voda store I go! (Again)15:31
CableTwitchLuckily, nothing of value apart from some random notes were lost.15:31
CableTwitchI shall return anon!15:32
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DocScrutinizerthe first boot takes quite some time. it's dark screen during some 10 seconds15:32
DocScrutinizerdon't power device down then15:32
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DocScrutinizerbut fading screen quite looks like borked hw15:33
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Kaadlajkcan fremantle flasher flash fiasco and emmc image at the same time (flasher -F fiasco.bin -F emmc.bin -f)?15:34
DocScrutinizernot afaik15:34
DocScrutinizerbut would be both reasonable and cool15:34
DocScrutinizermaybe nobody ever tried15:34
Kaadlajkthat works with harmattan flasher15:34
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DocScrutinizerharmattan flasher o.O15:35
Kaadlajkatleast flasher help states that -f should "load and flash all supplied images"15:36
DocScrutinizerif you flash harmattan on a fremantle device - will you need fremantle or harmattan flasher for that?15:36
Kaadlajkno comment15:37
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Kaadlajkfremantle flasher does not have the nice howto feature that tells you how to do stuff15:38
DocScrutinizerit comes with README though15:39
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Kaadlajktoo bad i dont have device to test flashing fiasco and emmc at the same time, dont wanna flash my own n900 :P15:42
RST38hMoo all15:42
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RST38hDoc: What is this harmattan talk about?15:42
RST38hIs it what I think it is?15:43
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: good question15:43
DocScrutinizerRST38h: just read last 4 posts of Kaadlajk15:43
DocScrutinizerI don't know more than that either15:44
DocScrutinizer5 actually15:44
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RST38hDoc: There are probably black helicopters heading for his location right now15:45
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DocScrutinizerKaadlajk: (dont wanna flash my own n900 :P) sissi :-P15:46
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DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~> /home/jr/Documents/N900/maemo5.0-flashing/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.4.5.3_beta/flasher-3.5 -F /home/jr/Documents/N900/maemo5.0-flashing/images/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin -F /home/jr/Documents/N900/maemo5.0-flashing/images/RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f15:50
DocScrutinizerflasher v2.4.5 (Jun 25 2009)15:50
DocScrutinizerImage 'mmc', size 262089728 bytes15:50
DocScrutinizer        Version RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA15:50
DocScrutinizerSpecify only one FIASCO image.15:50
phellarvfor-loop then ;-P15:51
DocScrutinizerwon't work as flasher doesn't know how to resume after a flashing without -R15:52
DocScrutinizerseems NOLO needs a new connect and bootup to start another flashing session15:52
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plr_does anyone know what needs to be restarted if the messaging stops working? every once in a while when looking at the SMS conversations, the conversation is not shown and if a new message is sent, the status is not updated (although it seems that the message is sent in the background)15:54
plr_restart repairs it, but I was wondering if there is a service that could just be restarted from the xterm..15:54
DocScrutinizerprobably there is but that's rather obscure (at least to me)15:55
alteregoI need something to validate my NMEA data :/15:56
alteregoCan't be bothered to write my own :(15:56
DocScrutinizeralterego: I bet there are official tools for that, probably written in pearl15:58
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* ShadowJK wonders if wlan roaming is supposed to work if you just set two APs to same ssid16:00
ShadowJKIt 'kinda' works already when they have different ssid, except that browser and stuff iss told by maemo to disconnect16:01
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yes, afaik thats how multi-AP wlan handover is supposed to be configured and work. Probably the APs need to support that, by sharing credentials/dhcp etc16:06
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* crashanddie just made Product Manager16:18
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Venemo_N900khertan_: ping16:24
X-Fadecrashanddie: Promotion or ... ? :)16:25
crashanddielooks like it16:26
X-FadeCongrats, so no coder anymore?16:26
crashanddieafter just 3-4 months in the company. i think this is my fastest promotion yet. not official yet though, have to work out what'll happen in the next 10 days16:26
crashanddiewell, i'm guessing i'll be wearing a dual hat. PM at some times, dev at others16:27
X-FadeNow we only need to find out if that says something about you or about the company :D16:27
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crashanddiemaybe they're really desperate and I'm a really good poser?16:28
X-FadeFrom your POV that doesn't matter.16:28
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Venemo_N900hm... installing stuff from SDK repo takes lots of rootfs space :(16:31
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crashanddie"A small but significant slip of the tongue had Canada's industry minister pleading for "more Canadian sex stories" on Monday, although he quickly insisted he was actually talking about success."16:34
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: it does, a lil bit. As when they are desparate they are likely to expect the impossible16:34
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crashanddie"Teased by reporters about the slip, Clement insisted he had not been thinking about sex. "The male brain is a very strange organ at times, isn't it? I have no explanation," he said."16:35
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crashanddieinteresting choice of words... "organ"16:36
DocScrutinizerhmm, what else?16:36
DocScrutinizerthe whole statement "strange organ" is bewildering. I'd more put it like "the male brain sometimes works in strange obscure ways"16:37
pupnik_he was distancing himself from responsibility16:38
pupnik_"it wasn't me, it was my organ"16:38
Venemo_N900is there actually no way to select text in microb?16:39
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DocScrutinizerlook, this is me, and that over there is my brain XP16:39
alteregoVenemo_N900: swipe from left to right at the left side of the screen and press the button that appears16:40
DocScrutinizerI usually tend to claim me==my-brain, and maybe would s/brain/body" in above sentence16:40
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Venemo_N900alterego: oh, crap... I meant modest16:41
Venemo_N900~seen khertan_16:41
infobotkhertan_ is currently on #maemo (7h 32m 18s) #meego (7h 32m 18s), last said: 'i must go on ... going to office. Bye'.16:42
DocScrutinizerin modest, seems no16:42
Venemo_N900that's what I thought16:42
DocScrutinizermodest is so... modest16:42
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Venemo_N900~seen Khertan16:42
infobotkhertan <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15d 6h 29m 54s ago, saying: 'oups wrong windows'.16:42
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crashanddieVenemo_N900, twitter him16:50
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Venemo_N900I don't use twitter16:52
Venemo_N900I have an account, but have not used it ever and dnno how to :D16:53
DocScrutinizerwhat's wrong with khertan_ ?16:53
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: he is not here.16:53
Venemo_N900or he just refuses to answer16:54
DocScrutinizerlast said: 'i must go on ... going to office. Bye'.16:54
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Venemo_N900oh, yeah16:54
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, "shit" is the word you're looking for.16:55
DocScrutinizer~dict modest16:55
infobotDictionary 'modest' (2 of 10): free from pomp or affectation; "comfortable but modest cottages"; "a simple rectangular brick building"; "a simple man with simple tastes" ;; not large but sufficient in size or amount; "a modest salary"; "modest inflation"; "helped in my own small way" .16:55
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DocScrutinizer~modest is now known as shit16:57
infobotDocScrutinizer: please, watch your language.16:57
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DocScrutinizer*modest is now known as shit16:57
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nidOpupnik: your stuff arrive yet?16:57
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GAN900~modest is shit16:58
infobotGAN900: please, watch your language.16:58
alteregoWell, at least one program seems to understand my NMEA stuff.16:58
GAN900~modest is s h i t16:58
infobotokay, GAN90016:58
alteregoBut everything accepts serial and I'm streaming over TCP :/16:58
Venemo_N900I'll disconnect from the uni's wifi16:58
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DocScrutinizersocat FTW16:58
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Venemo_N900so goodbye guys16:58
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lolloowhere is he going?16:59
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DocScrutinizeralterego: though honestly a program that expects NMEA via /dev/tty* is thoroughly fubar and needs some patching17:01
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DocScrutinizeralterego: socat + pty should do the trick, no?17:02
alteregoDocScrutinizer: trying now17:03
alteregoDocScrutinizer: looks like it works :D17:03
* DocScrutinizer puts on hanibal hat: "I love it when a plan works"17:04
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pupniknidO: when was it sent?17:05
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alteregoAnyone got any reocmmendations for a desktop GPS ui that displays most info?17:05
nidOpupnik: havent spoken to my sis in law since she got back but she flew back thursday, would assume she prolly got to the post office at the weekend17:05
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lcukalterego, its rare that desktops focus on gps apps :P17:06
lcuksince you know where they are and the machines are usually indoors anyway17:06
edheldilalterego:  gpsd? :)17:06
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: more and more laptops cme with GPS built in17:06
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lcukDocScrutinizer, I know this ;)17:07
CableTwitchWell, I convinced the guy at the Voda store it was FUBAR.17:07
lcukhe asked about desktops tho :P17:07
edheldilI used to have gps connected with bluetooth17:07
CableTwitchPowered it up, showed him the process, explained politely that no, he didnt actually need to get the laptop to update the software as I'd already tried it, and voila... I'll get a new one in a few days time.17:08
DocScrutinizerhmm, why not let him try update?17:08
DocScrutinizerthen go "thanks for confirming my findings"17:09
MohammadAGis it possible to desolder the N900's RAM and solder 512MBs?17:09
DocScrutinizerif you find a proper matching POP lice17:09
MohammadAGwithout size issues?17:09
MohammadAGwell, Beagleboard?17:10
CableTwitchDepends on how much memory the controller in the A8 can handle.17:10
DocScrutinizeryou may swap the whole SoC17:10
MohammadAGit can handle 512, sure of that17:10
CableTwitchGo for it. Then take pictures of the incinerated motherboard as a warning for others not to try it.17:10
CableTwitchYou'd ideally need a hot-air rework station, unless they're BGA?17:11
DocScrutinizersure BGA17:11
edheldilalterego:  are you trying to find out whether those contrail at nevada coast were indeed Chinese rocket? ;-) GPS signal supposedly carries information on detected ballistic missile launches ...17:11
CableTwitchI never really looked at the RAM when I was poking the internals.17:11
alteregogpsman seems to be happy ..17:11
alteregoThis makes me want to port Columbus to the desktop though17:12
alteregoAnd I've already made provisions to do so.17:12
pupniknidO: thanks i'll check the mailbox for a note17:12
alteregoI wanted to have the app running on my laptop and my N900 and them both showing the same data from my N900s GPS :D17:13
DocScrutinizerhell! whenever I hear/read *man, I think 'fap*'17:13
edheldilalterego:  do you know QLandkarte (GT/M/...)17:13
chem|stalterego: that has a brainstrom item17:13
edheldilit's similar to garmin's mapsource. Not gps debugging tool, though17:13
chem|stalterego: or kind of17:13
alteregochem|st: what does?17:13
timeless_mbphey, anyone here familiar w/ using ms office communicator from an n900?17:14
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timeless_mbpi have the butterfly msn protocol installed17:14
chem|stalterego: exporting the GPS-data to a client17:14
timeless_mbpbut i can't figure out if that's what i'm supposed to use17:14
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alteregochem|st: my app does it :) Via UDP unicast or TCP client or server configurations, as well as bluetooth17:14
chem|stalterego: people were like "oh that's so simple to do" but noone ever put a hand on it17:15
juhjokeltimeless_mbp: Windows Mobile 7, if you ask Microsoft :-)17:15
alteregochem|st: live streaming of NMEA telemetry that is.17:15
chem|stalterego: exactly17:15
timeless_mbpdoes it install on n900s?17:15
* timeless_mbp would try it17:15
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: soldering SoC in proper machinery on a prototype number of board gave us 60% yield17:15
alteregotimeless_mbp: yes, it's written for N900, but I'm going to sell it sorry :(17:15
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: so have fun with doing that by hand17:15
chem|stalterego: does it bundle as GPS-mouse via bt or so?17:15
timeless_mbpalterego: how much?17:15
alteregochem|st: yeah17:15
alteregotimeless_mbp: not decided yet, probably 3 or 4 euro17:16
chem|stalterego: so it does not nead a special program but any gps-aware program?!17:16
timeless_mbpalterego: do you take paypal?17:16
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* timeless_mbp wants it w/in the next 30mins17:16
alteregotimeless_mbp: that will be the prefered payment method yes, wait for my 1.0 release, should be within the next week.17:16
* jacekowski makes a phone call to inland revenue17:16
alteregobluetooth is a bit glitchy at the moment.17:17
alteregoI'm ironing out the creases.17:17
timeless_mbpalterego: all i want is ms office communicator support17:17
timeless_mbpi don't need bluetooth .. i think17:17
alteregotimeless_mbp: it exports a bluetooth serial port too, so you can use it as a bluetooth GPS17:17
jacekowskitimeless_mbp: what is it?17:17
timeless_mbp i guess?17:17
jacekowskihmm, microsoft IM?17:18
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DocScrutinizeralterego: please tell me how your OVI enterprise will turn out, once it's settled17:18
alteregochem|st: that's the idea. It has a UI similar to handheld GPS' and added logging/streaming capabilities.17:19
alteregotrip statistics and so on.17:19
DocScrutinizeralterego: also I'd happily discuss IMEI lock schemes with you17:19
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alteregoDocScrutinizer: yeah, I'll be wanting to work on that once this is done.17:20
jacekowskiand i'll happily create keygens/cracks for them17:20
alteregojacekowski: wont work like that, it's a device lock.17:20
alteregoSo I'll distribute a unique package for a specific N90017:20
chem|stalterego: do you mind to strap down to a streamer-only for extras some day?17:21
DocScrutinizeralterego: exactly17:21
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jacekowskialterego: there is always way around it17:21
jacekowskialterego: like global LD_PRELOAD17:21
jacekowskialterego: and lib faking imei17:21
alteregojacekowski: no dount, nothing is 100% foolproof.17:21
alteregoBut that's not the point.17:21
DocScrutinizeralterego: there's concepts to sour the milk for jacekowski17:21
infobotwell, doubt is When in doubt, cafuego is always right.17:21
chem|stalterego: that will piss off all people who get a replacement device17:22
GAN900alterego, why bother with the lock?17:22
DocScrutinizerchem|st: not more than with paid mp3 downloads17:22
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alteregochem|st: obviously I'm happy to distribute new versions for people that have replacements etc.17:23
GAN900Seems like it'd be less obnoxious to take to small piracy hit and just rely on most people's good nature.17:23
chem|stalterego: sure17:23
GAN900Through Ovi?17:23
DocScrutinizerGAN900: because there's jacekowski threating it17:23
CableTwitchNothing is 100% foolproof. I'm the fool that manages to break it regardless.17:23
alteregoGAN900: because I'm jobless and need the money :P17:23
alteregoAnd Ovi takes 40%17:23
gn00bi'm beginning to think that this phone (n900) is beyond me17:23
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GAN900alterego, so, what about the people who now wont buy it because of the protection scheme?17:24
crashanddiealterego, then get a job you useless bum17:24
alteregoGAN900: Like you?17:24
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: who cares about those?17:24
GAN900Frankly, I think that impact really ind of negates the likelihood of pirates largely affecting sales.17:24
* GAN900 shrugs17:24
chem|stalterego: so columbus will be released soon, but it is the garminGPS like only yet? what about the offline-navigation solution you talked about?17:24
GAN900Other things aside, DRM-type stuff generally turns me off of software.17:25
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alteregochem|st: I am working on a playback feature, which allows you to run through logged data, is that what you mean?17:26
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alteregochem|st: it only uses the internet if you tell it to stream over it, and AGPS17:26
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chem|stalterego: wasn't you then asking few days ago for a offline-routing software source17:26
alteregoNo, that was someone else :P17:26
Venemo_N900guys, I'm a noob17:26
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Venemo_N900I made a c hello world17:27
CableTwitchNow make a C Spot Run.17:27
Venemo_N900I did 'gcc first.c -o myfirst'17:27
Venemo_N900then 'chmod +x myfirst'17:27
DocScrutinizerGAN900: there's always a huge number of hobby pirates, so if you want to earn money from a relatively expensive lower target user base app, you need proper protection17:27
DocScrutinizerof any kind17:27
Venemo_N900then './myfirst' said permision denied17:27
kerioVenemo_N900: mydocs?17:28
Venemo_N900all this on the N90017:28
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Venemo_N900kerio: yeah17:28
keriovfat sucks17:28
Venemo_N900oh crap17:28
GAN900I'm not sure most of those people are likely to pay if you do.17:28
kerioit's also mounted noexec, afaik17:28
Venemo_N900you are right kerio17:28
kerioyes, i am17:28
Venemo_N900kerute: thx17:28
Venemo_N900kerio: thx17:28
chem|stalterego: but thats then a $1 item?! or how much will it be?17:28
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: who gives a fuck about people that won't pay either way?17:28
alteregochem|st: like I said, 3 or 4 euros most likely.17:29
chem|stalterego: ah over read that17:29
alteregoNormal mobile rip off prices.17:29
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, point being, I don't think the protection is likely to increase the number of paying people very much.17:29
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: my experience is different17:30
chem|stalterego: well I know about a few guys who funded a startup with a realy good 1eur app, have now 4 employees...17:30
alteregoGAN900: probably not, we'll see :P17:31
DocScrutinizerGAN900: a lot of peple won't pay if there's a pirated version on torrent, that has same functionality17:31
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: you can't stop the pirated version, see jacekowski - but there are methods to make it less attractive to users17:32
chem|stDocScrutinizer: you will get more money out of it if open-source and a donation drive or high-level protection compared to torrented17:32
DocScrutinizerchem|st: tell me about one donation driven FOSS project17:33
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DocScrutinizermy reposts vary from "nothing in years" to "$80.50 after 6 months"17:34
alteregochem|st: donations don't work tbh ..17:34
chem|stalterego: no they don't17:34
alteregoI've had 0 donations for my crappy app in extras :)17:34
crashanddiealterego, purchases does, however17:34
crashanddiealterego, without the need for DRM17:35
alteregocrashanddie: exactly :)17:35
alteregoI'm not using DRM17:35
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DocScrutinizerthat's a simple activation scheme17:35
DocScrutinizerwhich will need additional unrelated measures to take full effect17:35
crashanddiealterego, in my previous company, all the products, most of whom were sold for an average contract price of 800k USD didn't have any license keys or rights management17:35
alteregoSeriously though, it's not like I'm going to be unreasonible, I'm not saying 1 copy per N900.17:35
alteregoI'll give a user as many copies as they have N900s17:36
alteregoIt's just an insurance policy.17:36
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: that's business grade contracts - a completely different domain17:36
crashanddieThen just give it the ability to activate from demo to full17:36
alteregocrashanddie: when you're selling for that amount you don't need to.17:36
crashanddiewithout the ability to "cancel" a key17:36
alteregoThat'd be even easier for javispeado to crack :P17:37
crashanddiein other words, it only dials out upon activation, never afterwards17:37
alteregoI'm not having any dial home in my apps.17:37
crashanddieok, i'll admit, I have no idea what you're doing17:37
alteregoThat's the point of signing the package with a phones' IMEI17:37
crashanddieplease explain?17:37
alteregoBasically, someone orders, they give me their IMEI, I create a custom package for them and distribute it.17:38
alteregoThat package has in it a mechanism that stops it running when on a device that doesn't have a matching IMEI17:38
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: there are people that pirate for fun17:38
chem|stalterego: I'm not doing fancy giving anyone my IMEI17:38
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and there are people that just crack protections for fun17:38
DocScrutinizerI know, jacekowski17:38
crashanddiealterego, you really believe people are going to give you their IMEI?17:38
alteregocrashanddie: I don't know, we'll see :P17:38
crashanddiealterego, people are scared of giving their IP address on the web17:39
crashanddielet alone an IMEA17:39
chem|stalterego: IMEI's are on the hunt for china as they produce their jacker devices with stolen IMEIs17:39
crashanddie"OMG, HE'S GOING TO COPY MY SIMCARD"17:39
jacekowskicrashanddie: well, there are other option17:39
erstaziyeah, IMEI is a tad tough to give out for most people17:39
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: and your best bet to beat those is to be 2 weeks ahead of them, with free upgrades etc17:39
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alteregoWell, there are other options, IMEI seemed the most sensible.17:39
crashanddieit's definitely not17:39
alteregoWLAN MAC or BT BDADDr17:39
jacekowskialterego: activation will be a lot better ida17:39
crashanddiewell, WLAN MAC is dangerous, cuz it's easily changeable17:39
chem|stalterego: much better17:40
DocScrutinizerchem|st: nobody with a clear understanding of IMEI will give a fuck17:40
DocScrutinizerabout stolen IMEI17:40
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, which makes it even more dangerous17:40
alteregoHeh, probably.17:40
jacekowskialterego: with good vm you can have it really secure17:40
DocScrutinizer^^see I stole somebodies IMEI17:40
Choombut does that belong to an N900?17:40
RST38hYOu evildoer!17:40
alteregojacekowski: you mean an activation that locks itself to an IMEI? :)17:41
DocScrutinizerwho cares?17:41
chem|stDocScrutinizer: well, as long as no terrorist used it in a plane hijack mood17:41
RST38hMay the German TSA molest you for the rest of your life!17:41
alteregoI suppose I could come up with an activation strategy.17:41
crashanddiewhat if I buy your app once17:41
crashanddiethen ask for 200 keys?17:41
jacekowskialterego: yes, running in VM like themida17:41
alteregocrashanddie: I'll tell you to piss off :P17:41
crashanddiewhat if I buy your app, and ask you for a key17:41
crashanddieand you're in the hospital?17:41
RST38hcrash: You will be told to fuck off after first 3, 1 if you do not ask nicely17:41
alteregocrashanddie: gutted :P17:42
jacekowskialterego: randomly generated vm with random instruction set running most important parts of protection17:42
alteregocrashanddie: I was going to automate it :P17:42
jacekowskialterego: + self debugging17:42
RST38hcrash: Basically, when you buy an app, you buy it for a certain device17:42
jacekowskialterego: + nanomites17:42
RST38hcrash: He is not obliged to give you any more keys17:42
crashanddieRST38h, no, he said it was for any device I owned17:42
RST38hcrash: Then he is fucked.17:42
RST38hcrash:Really bad promise to make.17:42
timeless_mbpcrashanddie: IMEA would be GeoCoord ;-b17:43
alteregocrashanddie: I haven't decided :P17:43
crashanddie[16:36:16] <alterego> Seriously though, it's not like I'm going to be unreasonible, I'm not saying 1 copy per N900.17:43
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: nobody will mind if you crack last months version, even torrent it17:43
crashanddietimeless_mbp, i know, typo... too used to typing "EMEA" rather than "IMEI"17:43
DocScrutinizerusers wnat new clean stuff17:43
crashanddiealterego, if your app is worth it17:43
jacekowskithing is that with only imei lock you can torrent it in minutes17:43
crashanddiealterego, it won't matter how good or bad the copy protection is17:43
jacekowskiand have generic LD_PRELOAD based stuff17:43
DocScrutinizerthe few users willing to settle with an old cracked version are negligable17:44
crashanddiealterego, those who'll want to crack it will, and those who want to pay for it will17:44
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crashanddiealterego, it's your job to make it so that people are more inclined into paying than cracking17:44
crashanddiealterego, and the wrong answer to that problem is "let's make the cracking harder"17:44
jacekowskicrashanddie: it is part of answer17:44
chem|stalterego: the harder it is to crack more freaks are after it17:44
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: exactly17:45
* alterego sighs17:45
chem|stor the more freaky are the freaks17:45
erstazichem|st: exactly17:45
alteregoI just want to make a bit of money for Christmas :(17:45
jacekowskido you know that most people will give up as soon as they see r0 stuff17:45
erstazialterego: lift your pant leg on the street corner then17:45
crashanddiealterego, just add online route computation and tie it to an account :P Problem solved.17:45
alteregoI'm not selling another tom tom style sat nav solution.17:46
chem|stalterego: most people will pay for a 1eur app but will think twice for 4eur17:46
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: it's not about hard to crack stuff, it's all about users are interested in least hassle to use things they want17:46
erstaziDocScrutinizer: agreed17:46
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: yeah, but you have couple factors17:46
DocScrutinizerusually you don't use cracked stuff because you don't want to pay, you simply use it because it's such a hassle to pay17:46
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: how much it costs, how old is torrent version, how much they want features from later version, how much hassle is it17:47
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: if you sell something for 1eur most will buy it17:47
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DocScrutinizeral things easy to handle17:47
jacekowskiif you sell it for 100eur17:47
jacekowskithen more people will think about pirating it17:47
crashanddiechem|st, actually, I did a simulation for the company with random people in the street about how much they'd spend on random apps. I was pretty sure that more people would pay 1euro * 30 for different apps rather than 25euros * 1 for 30 different apps, turns out I was wrong. It's about perceived value, not actual spending. The iTunes numbers reflect this.17:47
jacekowskicrashanddie: that's about right17:48
jacekowskii personally don't have problem with spending 5 quid on something17:48
erstazihey timeless_mbp17:48
timeless_mbpthere's a pidgin=>presence bridge?17:48
* timeless_mbp installs17:48
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: once again about hassle of paying17:48
jacekowskibut as soon as it gets more expensive more thought goes into it17:48
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: only *if* you have *no* problems17:49
DocScrutinizerI have problems paying 5 ct when only paying method is paypal or credit card17:49
jacekowskiwhy you have problem with paypal17:50
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: because?17:50
DocScrutinizerergo I look for a cracked version17:50
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crashanddieDocScrutinizer, that's because you're a cheap german bastard :P17:50
jacekowskiit's one of easiest and fastest ways of paying17:50
DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: because: I don't have either of them17:50
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: ???17:50
nidOyou dont need a paypal account to pay a business using paypal17:50
timeless_mbpyou don't have a credit card?17:51
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: paypal is one of the most ass raping ripoffs17:51
nidOyou can pay it via credit or debit card through them17:51
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: do you know that most places where it says credit card you can use debit card as well17:51
alteregoYeah ..17:51
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: i used paypal for my downpayment on my Apt17:51
alteregoI've only got a debit card/17:51
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crashanddieDocScrutinizer, rarely for you honestly17:51
timeless_mbpalterego: credit cards include debit cards17:51
timeless_mbppaypal + co don't care17:51
timeless_mbpheck, you can send money into paypal using IBAN17:52
alteregotimeless_mbp: I know, I've never had a problem ordering stuff through paypal.17:52
timeless_mbpbut no, i don't think PayPal accepts money mule, sorry :)17:52
DocScrutinizerhell, you can get your paypal account locked for no reason, and just piss off17:52
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, for the regular company using paypal, their costs for paypal are roughly equivalent to those they have for using credit card whatever, so the final cost to consumer is really the same (you wouldn't see a price difference in the products if they're using one or the other)17:52
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timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: lots of strange things can happen17:52
timeless_mbpthat doesn't mean they happen often17:52
crashanddietimeless_mbp, only in specific countries17:52
DocScrutinizeresp with paypal, yes17:53
timeless_mbpyou *can* get hit by lightning bolts twice17:53
jacekowskicrashanddie: well, not if you are doing only debit cards17:53
jacekowskicrashanddie: where it's free for everybody17:53
DocScrutinizerpaypal? fuckoff17:53
crashanddiejacekowski, it ain't17:53
crashanddiejacekowski, I just sent money to GAN, using a debit card, I had to pay17:53
crashanddiejacekowski, about 2% of total amount17:53
jacekowskiyeah, paypal17:53
alteregoI could do a tmo vote thread17:53
DocScrutinizerbut that's me and shouldn't bother you17:53
jacekowskibut if you buy something in a shop17:53
DocScrutinizerI know most users have paypal17:53
alteregoStick up some screenshots and feature list and ask people to vote on how much they'd pay for it ;)17:54
jacekowskithey don't pay anything for you using debit card17:54
crashanddiejacekowski, erhm, no, it really depends on the country and card type17:54
jacekowskibut with credit cards they pay like 2-5%17:54
nidOin the UK most merchants have a fixed fee for accepting a debit card payment17:54
crashanddiejacekowski, in France, there's nearly only debit card, and most companies will rack up 8-12% of costs in card transactions17:54
nidOand a % for a credit card17:54
jacekowskicrashanddie: here in uk companies get card terminal for free with business account17:55
crashanddieyeah, but that's because in the UK, a cheque is nearly impossible to find17:55
jacekowskinot really17:55
crashanddiein France, cheques are free and everyone uses them17:55
crashanddieabsolute nightmare17:55
jacekowskicheques are quite popular17:55
jacekowskiand free17:55
jacekowskii mean not very popular17:56
alteregoThis conversation is getting deperessing.17:56
crashanddiein the UK? I had to pay 4 quid per cheque17:56
crashanddiewith HSBC17:56
jacekowskii have it free17:56
jacekowskiwith lloyds17:56
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crashanddieI've never seen anyone pay by cheque in tesco's or sainsburry's17:56
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nidOthats because it's an obscene amount of hassle compared to plugging a debit card into a machine17:56
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jacekowskicrashanddie: yeah, cards are easier to use17:57
nidOcheques are perfectly common other places though, my girlfriend's a solicitor and the large majority of the money they get in is via cheque17:57
DocScrutinizeralterego: go for OVI or paypal or whatever you like, and make a simple activation sheme locking app to IMEI (or any other device unique property, I have another few for you)17:57
crashanddieA day doesn't pass in France without seeing an old lady or someone paying by cheque, at least once a day. Then give their ID, then sign, then validate the amount that was written to the cheque, etc...17:57
DocScrutinizeralterego: no need to feel depressed by this debate17:57
jacekowskicrashanddie: yeah, cards are easier to use17:57
crashanddiejacekowski, defo :P17:57
jacekowskistick it into terminal17:57
jacekowskitype pin17:57
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, Ovi is shit17:58
nidOhave pin seen by 15 people17:58
jacekowskifind out that you are over limit17:58
MohammadAGutter bullshit17:58
alteregoDocScrutinizer: I don't think Ovi allows activation schemes.17:58
jacekowskinidO: so17:58
jacekowskinidO: not your problem17:58
alteregoAnd only 60% of sale goes to me :)17:58
jacekowskinidO: when somebody uses your card with your pin then only bank looses17:58
MohammadAGalterego, open your own store, make your own IMEI checking code, profit17:58
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: HAHAHA17:59
jacekowskinidO: because legally bank was not supposed to accept that transaction because it wasn't you doing it17:59
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alteregoMohammadAG: that's kind of where I'm heading at the moment ;)17:59
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: HAHAHA17:59
jacekowskiand they are required by law to return it17:59
crashanddiejacekowski, actually, if the bank can prove that you disclosed the PIN to a third party, you're responsible for the loss17:59
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: maybe that's UK jusrisdiction17:59
jacekowskionly if you did it on purpose17:59
crashanddiejacekowski, nope17:59
jacekowskinot here17:59
nidOcrashanddie having the pin seen without your knowledge isnt your problem though17:59
MohammadAGalterego, I get 70% for giving you the idea18:00
jacekowskithey still have to return that money18:00
DocScrutinizernidO: sure, if you can *prove* it :-P18:00
jacekowskiand then they can take you to court for fraud18:00
jacekowskibut only after they returned everything18:00
DocScrutinizernot here18:00
crashanddiejacekowski, I was a witness for CFS in a civil case against one of their customers, the customer lost.18:01
crashanddieAnd that was in Manchester18:01
jacekowskihmm, bad luck18:01
kerioCompletely Fair Scheduler?18:01
jacekowskibut going back to pin being seen by lot of people18:02
jacekowskiwhat does it give you18:02
jacekowskii mean18:02
jacekowskiif you see somebody elses pin18:02
jacekowskiyou still need a card18:02
jacekowskiand there is loads of people there18:02
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: some years ago customer was even in pinch when he was able to prove he wasn't in spain but in letland the time his card copy was abused in spain18:02
edheldilthat can be stolen or skimmed18:02
nidOstill, it defeats the entire purpose of pins existing18:02
crashanddieyou just need to copy the magnetic strip, copy it on a chipless card18:02
jacekowskicrashanddie: nope18:02
crashanddiethen you can use it in any cash point or sale point18:02
nidOthe whole point of replacing signiatures with pins was because a sig is easy to duplicate, but that still relied on having the card in the first place18:03
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jacekowskicrashanddie: if strip says that it's chip&pin card18:03
jacekowskicrashanddie: terminal will try to talk to chip and fail18:03
crashanddiejacekowski, nope18:03
jacekowskicrashanddie: and will just reject card18:03
alteregonidO: that and clerks barely check signature.18:03
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: nope18:03
jacekowskicrashanddie: so why when i slide magnetic strip it request to insert chip18:03
alteregoI've regularly signed for stuff after getting my card back18:03
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crashanddiejacekowski, that's an EMV standard, go to italy, india, china, EMV isn't the most common standard18:03
DocScrutinizerwe had issues with chip here last new year: hot fix: scotch tape patch over chip18:03
crashanddiejacekowski, they'll read the strip, ask for PIN, validate transaction18:04
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i tried that18:04
edheldilalterego:  they showed on TV here that you could get away with signing as different sex as well18:04
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: all i got was an error18:04
nidOUK merchants can still manually take payments from chip cards with a signiature though18:04
crashanddiejacekowski, even the fecking expensive cash points in corner shops will let you get money from it18:04
jacekowskicrashanddie: do you know that pin is stored in magnetic strip?18:04
alteregoI did an awful signature the other day, because my hads were freezing :D18:05
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crashanddiejacekowski, again, depends on the technology18:05
jacekowskiit's "encrypted" but algo is well known18:05
jacekowskiand there is only 10k possible options18:05
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: again nope18:05
crashanddiejacekowski, french visa/mastercard doesn't, there is no "one card"18:05
jacekowskithere is one standard for magnetic strip content18:05
jacekowskiotherwise it wouldn't work abroad18:05
crashanddiewhich is why some readers only understand mastercard, others only amex?18:06
DocScrutinizerlike there's one standard for XML18:06
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jacekowskicrashanddie: because of agreements between you and bank and card issuer18:06
jacekowskiit's like with roaming18:07
jacekowskiin country18:07
jacekowskiit's all gsm18:07
jacekowskibut you can only use your own carrier network18:07
jacekowskinot because of incompatibilities18:07
jacekowskijust because of business model18:07
crashanddiewell, that's authentication, not technology18:07
nidObad analogy though, as gsm has different frequencies so relies on your phone having the right modem for the right frequencies of the area18:08
jacekowskiit stands for common format agreed between all card issuers18:08
nidOor you might be somewhere douchebaggy that uses cdma instead of gsm18:08
crashanddiejacekowski, nope18:08
crashanddiejacekowski, france has CB (Carte Bleue), which is a heckuvalot older than EMV18:08
edheldilnid0: but that different problem. With a gsm phone you won't have problems in most of the europe18:08
jacekowskiThere are up to three tracks on magnetic cards used for financial transactions, known as tracks 1, 2, and 3. Track 3 is virtually unused by the major worldwide networks such as VISA, and often isn't even physically present on the card by virtue of a narrower magnetic stripe. Point-of-sale card readers almost always read track 1, or track 2, and sometimes both, in case one track is unreadable.18:09
jacekowskiTrack 1 is written with code known as DEC SIXBIT plus odd parity. The information on track 1 on financial cards is contained in several formats: A, which is reserved for proprietary use of the card issuer, B, which is described below, C-M, which are reserved for use by ANSI Subcommittee X3B10 and N-Z, which are available for use by individual card issuers:18:09
jacekowskiall well known common formats18:09
jacekowskii have stuff to do18:09
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GAN900There MUST be some sort of reasonable open source PoS/Inventory Control system. . . .18:10
crashanddiegermany has Geldkarte, or whatever the name is, DocScrutinizer ? Belgium has Bankcontact, and even further than that, EMV is just a standard, and itself has vastly different and even INCOMPATIBLE implementations18:11
crashanddiejacekowski, for example, IIRC (and it's been a while, so this may have changed), but I remember having to hack through a smartcard's firmware because we had to do a demo at the US DoD, and we only had Visa cards that wouldn't work on the Amex readers (VSCC vs AEPS or something)18:11
crashanddieThank you wikipedia: <-- if the terminal is only aware of the amex application, it won't be able to query the right app ID from the card.18:13
tybolltGAN: isat "Piece of Shit" or "Point of Sales" ;-D18:13
crashanddieGAN900, not that I'm aware of, but I could write one18:15
crashanddieGAN900, give me a 50k a year salary, and I'll do just that. About 9 months of work should be enough to get the first PoC18:15
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timeless_mbpcrashanddie: 50k seems low, do you require benefits?18:18
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crashanddienha, my first job coverse that18:18
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timeless_mbpor will you moonlight for the ...18:18
infobotcrashanddie meant: nha, my first job covers that18:18
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crashanddietimeless_mbp, oh, and not dollars, either ;)18:20
crashanddieI'm off, need to go buy presents for xmas18:20
crashanddielater all18:20
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: what I'm talking about is MAESTRO and MASTERCARD18:22
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DocScrutinizerGeldkarte is another weird concept for micropayment off the chip, with a hidden/shadow account running in parallel at your bank18:22
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DocScrutinizeryou store an amount of up to a few hundered bucks to Geldkarte, and it can take debits from any seller machine without PIN or any checkback at online18:24
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timeless_crashanddie: hey18:27
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timeless_mbpthe EUR is falling against the dollar18:27
timeless_mbpyou sure you don't want to hedge your bets and take dollars assuming the EUR will fall below? :)18:27
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Choomconsidering how cheap the dollar is I'd say that's intended18:28
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ChoomGBP is also quite cheap in EUR right now18:28
ChoomI had never seen the USD touch .70 EUR before like it did not long ago18:29
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DocScrutinizerUS fed printing $$$ and blaming EU for not printing €€€ - haha18:31
GAN900crashanddie, no.18:31
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ieatlintmore like us fed printing money and eu asking "wtf?" :P18:32
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DocScrutinizerhello? USA? it's not our fault if nobody want to buy your export anymore18:33
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* ieatlint cries18:33
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timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: hrm, people aren't buying iPhone's or Android's anymore?18:33
timeless_mbpi'll tell management18:33
ieatlintheh, without us making the hardware, it doesn't bring in nearly as much18:34
DocScrutinizerhaha, see "made in..." X-P18:34
ieatlintat least not when it comes to the trade deficit18:34
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DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: that's your problem18:34
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timeless_mbpi know18:34
DocScrutinizeryou think you're producing great stuff, but in fact you import it18:35
timeless_mbpno, we at Nokia have a strong NIH policy18:35
GAN900Cars and microprocessors!18:35
ieatlintit's ok, we still embarrassed france with wine18:35
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: i'm not in .us, i'm in .fi/.eu18:35
GAN900Hooray for the New World taste.18:35
DocScrutinizerhmm, so s/your/USA's/18:36
njsfso did my country :D18:36
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njsfI'm in the .us, but I meant .pt :D18:36
njsfthis years contest had a cheap .pt wine win over very expensive .fr wines :D18:37
timeless_mbpnjsf: nice18:37
ieatlintwe've had that before too... it's mostly a joke18:37
ieatlint$2 wine wins competition, etc18:37
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ieatlintoh, here's something we exported: crap food18:39
ieatlintgo enjoy a big mac and order a budweiser.. thanks to us, you can18:39
ieatlintyou're welcome18:39
pupniki don't think america exports much beer18:40
nidOor burgers, maccy d in the uk makes them here18:40
DocScrutinizerieatlint: USA export? A weird notion about freedom and democracy, that's 'exported' to other countries18:40
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ieatlintDocScrutinizer: you live in germany, right? :P18:41
pupnikDocScrutinizer: and unix :)18:41
DocScrutinizeryeah, the only country where that export ever actually worked18:41
kerio"Sim card registration failed"18:41
kerioi really hope it's the sim itself18:41
pupnikthe 'good enough' operating system18:41
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: essentially, yes18:42
ieatlintbut then, our own democracy doesn't work18:42
ieatlintso what did you expect18:42
pupnikwas supposed to be a republic not a democracy ;)18:42
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pupnikbut the world ain't perfect18:43
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kerioso... it's not the sim18:46
keriowhat could've gone wrong in my n900?18:46
DocScrutinizerd-bus, phonet, libisi18:47
DocScrutinizerno idea18:47
ShadowJKDoes the sim card work in any other phones?18:47
kerioShadowJK: yeah18:47
DocScrutinizeror you configured to store the PIN and don't ask for it, then changed it on the card18:47
ShadowJKI had something similar, turned out to be hw fault in n90p18:48
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kerioDocScrutinizer: not that18:48
ieatlinti also seem to recall some people having issues with the pins making good contact with the card18:48
ieatlintwith suggestions of adding a piece of paper to the back of the sim card to push it against the pins18:48
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DocScrutinizersuggested fix: carefully pull out and bend the contact springs a bit18:49
DocScrutinizerpaper usually is BS18:49
ShadowJKdidn't work for me. I think the board itself is broken, because there's a very specific point on my n900 I can press and cellmo crashes within 10 secs18:50
alteregoJust added a nice little feature, that when you lock the screen, it disables my apps screen keepalive routine.18:50
alteregoThen when you unlock it, it re-enables keep-alive :)18:50
GAN900DocScrutinizer, South Korea, Japan.18:50
kerioShadowJK: so don't press it!18:51
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DocScrutinizerthough both are really fsck up18:51
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kkalfunny how there are more people in #maemo than in #android18:52
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kkaleven though there are substantially more android users than maemo users18:52
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ieatlintit's too cold here right now18:53
nidOfreezing here too :(18:53
ShadowJKkerio, well it happens randomly when it pocket18:54
nidOwts case?18:54
GAN900kkal, contribution levels.18:54
GAN900kkal, most people who don't work for Google don't get to be involved in Android.18:54
kerio>solid, innovative hardware and open, versatile software18:54
GAN900kkal, also, this channel is official.18:54
DocScrutinizerGAN900: in korea they got nazi blockwarts I heard which hunt down shop owners not charging for platic bags and people spitting floor, and japan never got the whole point of hire&fire at all, among other madness18:55
keriotried raising the contact pins a bit18:55
keriostill failed18:55
BCMMif i have a sound problem which doesn't go away on reboot but does go away if i remove the battery, is there any possibility that it isn't a hardware problem?18:56
kerioso... i guess it's time for nokia care huh18:57
DocScrutinizerBCMM: some codec using DSP lock up and occupying the audio18:57
ShadowJKBCMM, sounds unlikely. But, if it's a hw problem, nokia care is wiping your data/install anyways, so you might as well try reflash18:57
ShadowJKand dont reinstall every app18:57
DocScrutinizerBCMM: there's a similar problem known for breakage of video playback18:57
BCMMDocScrutinizer: would breaking the DSP prevent *any* audio playing?18:58
ShadowJKdsp isn't used for audio18:58
DocScrutinizerBCMM: I dunno18:58
BCMMeven things like flash, mplayer, aplay18:58
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: we can also add the philippines to the list of "democracies" we set up18:58
BCMMShadowJK: they don't accellerate mp3 playback?18:58
BCMMno sound at all, not even in calls18:58
ShadowJKmplayer doesn't use dsp, at all18:59
BCMMi've had the DSP get in a stupid state before, and it isn't like that18:59
BCMMShadowJK: i know18:59
BCMMalso, pressing the volume keys doesn't make the OSD appear18:59
BCMMtaht's the odd bit for me18:59
BCMMthat only reason i still wonder if it's a software thing18:59
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ShadowJKanything in dmesg?18:59
BCMMthat's odd, i have a feeling there wasn't, but now i think about it i don't actually remember checking19:00
BCMMthat's stupid19:00
BCMMi'll check next time, thanks19:00
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ShadowJKHow often does it happen?19:00
DocScrutinizerfor some bits bout codec usage and DSP19:00
BCMMso the DSP only does video?19:01
BCMMShadowJK: seems to have happened about every day for the past few days19:01
BCMMbefore that, never happened before19:02
ShadowJKSo that it's free for video19:02
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, there's stuff about the dsp in there?19:02
BCMMit seemed to start when i installed live-wallpapers, but i don't think uninstalling it fixed that19:02
DocScrutinizeriirc yes19:03
DocScrutinizeron a side note at least, or a comment19:03
BCMMin teh comments19:03
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pupnikok guys back in 1988 a company released glasses that would laserbeam a monochrome display into your eyeball19:04
tugriki can't find the x11vnc for Maemo 5 in the extras repository, anyone know what happened to it?19:04
pupnikwhere are my irc sunglasses19:04
BCMMpupnik: hah, you're still using a computer to go on irc?19:04
ShadowJKA nokia default mp3 decoder vs ffvorbis would be interesting :)19:05
timeless_mbpok, someone needs to remind me how to use package promotion19:05
pupnikBCMM: everyone does.19:05
ShadowJKBCMM, n900 has tvout, remember19:05
ShadowJKyou could connect videoglasses to your n90019:05
BCMMShadowJK: what makes you think laser sunglasses take video-in?19:05
pupniki'm wondering about the technology19:06
pupnikit doesn't use a 'screen'19:06
BCMMtugrik: i don't think anything happened to it, are you looking for it in HAM or apt-cache search?19:06
BCMMpupnik: projection onto the retina with a moving laser beam19:06
DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: get ten votes19:06
DocScrutinizerthen there's a button "promote"19:06
pupnikBCMM: wondering why it's 22 years later and these are not commodity products19:06
BCMMpersistence of vision makes it into a picture19:06
tugrikthe application manager - HAM?19:06
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: not my package19:07
pupnikbluetooth text glasses19:07
timeless_mbpturns out i want to vote against19:07
BCMMtugrik: Hildon Application Manager, yes19:07
tugrikthat's it :)19:07
BCMMtugrik: try "apt-get install x11vnc"19:07
DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: huh?19:07
tugrikcan't see it on either19:07
BCMMi don't actually know what controls what appears in HAM; something about catagories19:07
timeless_mbpinitially i wanted to vote for it19:07
BCMMand i don't know how debian package categories work19:07
pupniksivang: timeless_mbp thanks for that meego presentation - it really was educational.  So far the only lecture I saw that was nuts-n-bolts about the UX19:07
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timeless_mbpbut it's buggy, so i want to vote against19:08
timeless_mbppupnik: thanks19:08
timeless_mbppupnik: did you try the slides?19:08
BCMMtimeless_mbp: what is that actually for?19:08
DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: buggy isn't a proper criterion for a downvote19:08
timeless_mbpBCMM: see bug 1161519:08
povbotBug Activate views should indicate current view and deactivating a view shouldn't delete its content19:08
pupniktimeless_mbp: i wish the camera were on the slides and not the presenter19:08
timeless_mbpBCMM: it works around stupidity in core :)19:08
BCMMhow many bots are in here?19:08
timeless_mbppupnik: yeah19:08
timeless_mbpthat really annoyed me19:08
DocScrutinizerBCMM: 2 or 319:08
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DocScrutinizerprolly more19:08
timeless_mbpi didn't like seeing my floating head w/ redish tail19:09
BCMMi wholeheartedly agree with that bug19:09
BCMMalso, you should be able to name desktops19:09
timeless_mbpBCMM: naming desktops is um... painful19:09
timeless_mbpit's unclear whether it's a particularly useful feature19:09
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BCMMwell, i use it on KDE19:09
timeless_mbpok, so um19:09
timeless_mbpBCMM: the question is does the average person19:09
BCMMof course, the concept of desktop is a bit different if windows belong to a desktop19:10
timeless_mbpthe followup questions are19:10
timeless_mbpif we have to spend resources on supporting the feature19:10
timeless_mbphow likely are we to screw it up19:10
BCMMno, that's why the default names should be 1, 2, 3 and 419:10
timeless_mbpand what else suffer19:10
tugrikno sigh of it from "apt-cache search x11vnc" bcmm, only if I go into EasyDebian... and then I *presume* installing it using apt-get from there will give me remote access to the EasyDebian LXDE rather than the N900 screen19:10
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timeless_mbptugrik: do you want vnc viewer or vnc server?19:10
tugrikthe article I'm looking at regarding this is less than a year old...
BCMMtugrik: huh, odd. apt-get update?19:10
timeless_mbpand if you want vnc server, why?19:11
tugrikvnc server19:11
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BCMMtugrik: also, doesn't easydebian use the regular X server?19:11
tugrikso I can look at my phone screen on my desktop's screen19:11
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BCMMtimeless_mbp: maybe his computer has a bigger monitor?19:11
tugrikI think easydebian uses its on Xserver19:11
BCMMi use a vnc server on teh phone on occasion19:11
tugrikheh BCMM19:11
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timeless_mbptugrik:  you enabled extras-devel?19:12
infobottimeless_mbp meant: tugrik:  you added extras-devel?19:12
BCMMi once plugged my n900 into a sound system then used someone else's to change tracks remotely over VNC19:12
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BCMMso there.19:12
tugrikno timeless_mbp - trying to avoid the more experimental stuff, especially as x11vnc appears to be in Extras according to that blog port19:12
BCMMtugrik: if you did use easydeb's one, you could presumably just change the value of DISPLAY for it19:12
timeless_mbpclaims it's in extras and extras-testing in addition to extras-devel19:13
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# apt-cache search vnc19:13
DocScrutinizerpresencevnc - A touchscreen friendly VNC client19:13
DocScrutinizerx11vnc - VNC server to allow remote access to an existing X session19:13
DocScrutinizervncviewer - A VNC viewer for maemo19:13
Macerthe rock is so funny. you can so obviously see the stunt drivers19:13
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# apt-cache policy x11vnc19:15
DocScrutinizer     0.9.3-maemo7 019:15
DocScrutinizer        500 fremantle-1.2/free Packages19:15
* DocScrutinizer away19:15
pupnikNew invention for germany: Not openstreetmap.  Openairmap.  Every participant runs a client that surveils the sky with a client that identifies moving objects.  Based on camera orientation and location, a live map of the sky is created.19:15
pupnikInvented by pupnik, today19:16
tugrikah, I'm got my distribution set to "fremantle-1.3"19:16
chem|stpupnik: already available, live streams of air controll radio too19:17
DocScrutinizertugrik: that might be correct for a PR1.3 system19:17
pupnikchem|st: not available at all19:18
pupniki'm talking about a decentralized network19:18
chem|stpupnik: it is called radar... and you got lots of radar stations all over the place19:18
pupnikplease think.  this is revolutionary.19:18
chem|stpupnik: cloudy sky atm but I can tell by sound if Ramstein Airbase has incomings and where they are...19:19
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pupnikchem|st: the whole point of arpanet/internet was robustness from attack19:19
pupnikthere is no robust air defense now19:20
pupnikit is tied to a few radar points19:20
pupnikunder central control19:20
pupnikwhich can pretty easily be hijacked19:20
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pupnikas a product, the client can be sold as a UFO searching app19:21
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pupnikfor free of course19:21
DocScrutinizerpupnik: in fact astronomers might consider that a useful app19:22
chem|stpupnik: traffic is controlled but the bare radar date comes from all over the place19:22
pupnikjust needs a cheap ip camera set on the roof19:22
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DocScrutinizerthey already have similar thing19:22
pupnikDocScrutinizer: what is that?19:22
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pupniksurveying airspace is purely defensive.  nobody can object to it.19:23
DocScrutinizerlocate meteorites19:23
chem|stpupnik: it is opensource btw19:23
chem|stnot the data but the server is19:23
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chem|stcan be used to control scopes, auto align and so on19:24
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chem|stpupnik: and it is webserver based19:26
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pupnikchem|st: what is the name of it?19:28
chem|stpupnik: maybe you can use that for some good, the web-based planetarium server stuff is here
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BCMMpupnik: some (government) nutter in the US managed to argue that that iphone app that identifies commercial flights was a terrorist tool19:29
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chem|stpupnik: as example you compare the web-based planetarium with the current live view to find objects in the night-sky19:30
BCMMalso, a cheap IP camera won't show aircraft unless they're pretty low19:30
pupnika town running about 100 clients could identify position and vector of even low-flying cruise missiles19:31
chem|stpupnik: I would not rely my air defense on that...19:31
chem|st<- away19:32
BCMMpupnik: a low-flying cruise missile would cross a cheap camera's field of view *between* frames19:32
alteregoWell, when screen locked, and streaming over TCP/IP and logging, columbus uses ~1% CPU19:33
BCMMbasically, i reckon cheap cameras have insufficient resolution for high things, and insufficient frame-rates for low things19:33
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alteregoThink I'm gonna do some power usage stats when I've finished.19:34
BCMMalso, you won't be able to combine the images to get a vector for an (angularly) fast thing unless you can correct for latency19:34
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BCMMthat said, ntp is basically very good19:34
BCMMbut cheap IP cameras don't run it19:34
pupnikBCMM: they travel about 10 meters every 1/30 second19:35
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pupnikyes you won't see one fly right over you, but you would if you pointed the camera low19:35
BCMMthat's about fast subsonic, right?19:35
pupnikbut your point is valid19:35
pupnikthere is a resolution problem with the idea19:36
BCMMalso, you are correct that it is possible to bomb radar stations19:36
BCMMbut it is also possible to bomb power stations19:36
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pupnikactually i was thinking of inner sabotage19:37
BCMMwell, same19:37
pupniknot so much19:37
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pupnikif your awareness of the airspace is sabotage proof19:37
pupnikthen you can use your best tech to defend your power stations19:38
alteregoSo the conversations has gone from processing credit payments to terrorism? :)19:38
BCMMterrorism typically implies a situation too asymmetric for the enemy to have aircraft19:39
pupnikno alterego19:39
alteregoWhat has Nokia done now for you to want to blow up power plants in Finland?19:39
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kerioalterego: my n900 has stopped working :(19:40
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keriothey deserve the worst19:41
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Venemo_N900hi guys19:41
BCMMalso, i'm sure that very low flying aircraft already intentionally avoid populated places19:41
BCMMVenemo_N900: g'day19:41
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korhojoaanyone using mumble on the n900?19:41
pupnikBCMM: sure, any attacker would probably have access to the map of cameras and be able to plot an optimal route between them19:41
Venemo_N900the phone application started to say "no recent calls", even though there _are_ recent calls. after I make a call, the list is still empty and it still says "no recent calls"19:42
BCMMpupnik: well, if they are based on roofs of houses, they would be easy to avoid19:42
Venemo_N900could anyone help me please?19:42
BCMMVenemo_N900: is your date set wrong?19:42
Venemo_N900BCMM: nope19:42
Venemo_N900BCMM: this started after the phone app crashed earlier today19:43
BCMMi guess it crashed with a broken config or something19:43
korhojoawell. anyone know if to use pulseaudio or alsa to get audio in and out in a program?19:43
pupnikVenemo_N900: are the 'recent calls' supposed to show only incoming calls?19:43
Venemo_N900pupnik: nope.19:43
Venemo_N900pupnik: I had incoming calls too, and they don't appear either. nor do missed calls19:44
alteregoFreakin' hell it's cold outside.19:44
Venemo_N900alterego: yeah...19:44
korhojoaalterego, how cold?19:44
pupnikVenemo_N900: well it looks like phone app crashed and left bad data somewhere that's breaking it19:45
alterego1deg I think19:45
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korhojoaalterego, 1 degree what? C or F19:45
Venemo_N900pupnik: that's good thinking19:45
korhojoathat's not cold19:45
Venemo_N900pupnik: but I have no idea what to do about it19:45
alteregobloody is :P19:45
alteregocan't feel my toes19:46
merlin19911c is evil19:46
korhojoanot really. it's -5 here, i can feel my toes just fine19:46
merlin1991if you have no shoes on ;)19:46
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korhojoadarn. no-one knows about sound stuff on the n900?19:46
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alteregoGPS data logging and streaming over tcp/ip at 1% cpu is quite reasonible I think.19:47
Venemo_N900korhojoa: sound stuff?19:47
BCMMkorhojoa: i'm just finding the wiki page19:47
Venemo_N900korhojoa: what's the problem19:48
ShadowJKalterego, remember it's the wakeups (of both radio and cpu) that cost power :-)19:48
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alteregoStill, want to monitor bandwidth usage and battery usage, before I start using it dat-to-day.19:48
BCMMkorhojoa: what sort of sound output are you looking for? do you want it to go "ding" when you press a button for some feedback, or are you trying to play music or something?19:48
korhojoai'm trying to get mumble to work (mumble is a voip chat client)19:48
alteregoShadowJK: yeah19:48
trumeekorhojoa, is that a sip client?19:48
Venemo_N900korhojoa: umm... I no nothing about it, sorry19:48
ShadowJKOne tcp/ip packet every 5 seconds on 3g eats about as much power as streaming mp3 continously..19:49
alteregoShadowJK: this is continuous19:49
SpeedEvil1% CPU is a lie.19:49
alteregoIt's logging to file that I expect to do anyway.19:49
SpeedEvilIn that it is not a meaningful measure of power consumption.19:50
Venemo_N900khertan_: ping19:50
Venemo_N900MohammadAG: ping19:50
alteregoSpeedEvil: I understand that :P19:50
alteregoThis is why I want to do a power usage test tomorrow.19:50
alteregoJust need to finish some configuration backend issues and I'm pretty much done.19:51
Venemo_N900alterego: 1% cpu is good, but the cpu is not gonna be the biggest power hog in this situation anyway19:52
alteregoYes, I know ...19:53
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alteregoOh, also need to stop ui updates when backgrounded.19:53
Venemo_N900alterego: do you have a clue about the weird behaviour of the phone app?19:53
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Venemo_N900alterego: that's a good idea yes.19:54
alteregoVenemo_N900: nope no idea, I lost a couple of sms' and a phone call last week when my N900 ground to a halt and I had to restart.19:54
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Venemo_N900I have not lost a call in such manner yet19:56
timeless_mbpweird behavior of the phone?19:56
alteregoAt least I got to see who sent/phoned me.19:56
Venemo_N900timeless_mbp: yes19:57
Venemo_N900timeless_mbp: the phone app crashed once. now it doesn't display any calls19:57
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timeless_mbpsounds like icd19:57
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Venemo_N900timeless_mbp: it just says "no recent calls" and the list remains empty19:58
timeless_mbpwhich when it does,... you can't connect to networks until you reboot19:58
alteregoVenemo_N900: and you've restarted?19:58
Venemo_N900alterego: not yet19:59
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Venemo_N900should I?20:00
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pupnik"If you don't like chicken or watermelon, there's SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU" - Chappelle20:00
alteregoProbably, depends if you're planing to investigate the issue further.20:00
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* DocScrutinizer51 drools over new xchat cursor-up/down mapping20:01
DocScrutinizer51easy convenient scrolling20:01
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DocScrutinizer51was a matter of removing two checkmarks and add them on the next two keybindings instead20:02
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DocScrutinizer51RST38h: now add fontsize 'zooming' for me and I'm a happy panda20:03
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timeless_mbpoh wow20:07
timeless_mbpoh, nm20:07
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trumeeDocScrutinizer51: what xchat mapping is that?20:13
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DocScrutinizer51trumee: page scroll or sth20:13
trumeeDocScrutinizer51: Page Up and Down ?20:14
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DocScrutinizer51scroll page +1 / -1, 3rd and 4th entry of my key shortcuts20:15
DocScrutinizer51remove the checkmark for "Shift"20:15
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DocScrutinizer51add them to next command / last command20:18
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timeless_mbpanyone here heard of ?20:19
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GuySoft‎hi all, i seem to be getting all the time modest threads in my memo device that eat up memory , what might be causing this??20:21
timeless_mbpare you using pop, imap, mfe, other?20:21
trumeeDocScrutinizer51: i only have Ctrl  checkmarked in 1 (Page Up and Page Down) keys20:23
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trumeeDocScrutinizer51: First row reads C, Page_Down, Change Page, -1 Relative20:24
DocScrutinizer51yes, those20:25
trumeeDocScrutinizer51: So i Enable shift?20:25
DocScrutinizer51not change page. SCROLL page20:26
timeless_mbpright, so... um20:27
DocScrutinizer51looks like S up page-scroll -120:27
timeless_mbpsomeone said there was some reasonable electronic tv solution for finland20:27
timeless_mbpanyone remember it?20:27
trumeeDocScrutinizer51: hmm. and i should be able to scroll using Shift + Up arrow?20:28
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DocScrutinizer51if you got that mapping like I see here20:29
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DocScrutinizer51then yes, and I switched that to scrolling without shift now20:30
trumeeyes, i have. But Shift + Up gives me single line scrolling and Not Page scrolling20:30
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trumeeah ok. I was hoping to do Page Up, rather than a single Up.20:32
DocScrutinizer51trumee: key repeat works fine here. If you want 'faster' scrolling thenmchange -1 to e.g. -1020:32
trumeeDocScrutinizer51: cool20:33
DocScrutinizer51mere guess20:33
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trumeeyes, not a good guess though. doesnt work!20:34
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Funnyfacehmm this annoys me, my N900 keeps dropping back to "3G" all the time, tried my SIM in my old winmo device, it's keeping a steady HSDPA connection..20:41
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X-FadeFunnyface: Lol, that is actually what it is supposed to do.20:55
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X-FadeFunnyface: Idle on 3G, transfer data on 3.5.20:55
Funnyfaceit does it on transfer as well20:56
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X-FadeFunnyface: But most other devices don't show that.20:56
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tugrikDocScrutinizer51 so... if I set up freemantle-1.2 repository... am I asked for trouble?  Or just enable it temporarily to install x11vnc?20:58
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Funnyface2X-Fade: my connection died :\ well it sits there on 3G even with an active connection21:00
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DocScrutinizertugrik: no idea21:07
DocScrutinizeractive connection != data transfer. 3.5G is just another word for "wow that's really fast 3G". So no way to tell it's 3.5 unless you actually transfer data21:09
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DocScrutinizerother phones might store up a previous 3.5G state and display that all the time, but that's not quite correct21:10
korhojoahmm. guys, anyone know how to get kernel power back in to multiboot, since it isn't showing right now? i've got nitdroid installed, and i just installed that from a fresh pr1.321:10
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filI note that my n900's camera seems not to want to run recently -- am I right in thinking that the thing that's being run would be camera-ui.launch, and if so, I'm guessing that the fact that segfaults when run from the command line might be related21:10
pupnik  Finland is a Rising Power - "This Christmas Everyone Will Believe in Santa Claus.21:10
DocScrutinizerfil: uninstall fcam21:11
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DocScrutinizerkorhojoa: the multiboot FAQ doesn't cover that?21:12
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korhojoaDocScrutinizer, well. it does, but installing fails since 'there is no install candidate'21:15
korhojoaalso, when you get the file from and install it with dpkg, it fails with some guru meditation, "can't flash kernel, file not found"21:16
tugrikDocScrutinizer: installed it from extras-testing, now time to wrap some security around it - thanks for your help21:16
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FunnyfaceDocScrutinizer: I understand, but.. when it says 3.5G anywhere between 80-200KB/s when looking at the bandwidth graph, then suddenly it might drop to 3G and I get a steady 40KB/s instead. and it seems to freeze at that speed, the latency on ping times gets higher21:19
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Venemohey guys21:19
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Venemoa restart indeed solved the stupidity of the phone app21:19
DocScrutinizerfunthat's BTS controlled21:19
Venemoso thanks for the idea alterego21:19
alteregoFixes a lot of this :)21:20
alteregothings ...21:20
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Funnyfacenow I remember why I hated my winmo phone :P21:21
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kerioso... it was a network problem21:32
kerioapparently every linux-based phone has the same problem as of now, with my carrier21:32
keriohow does that even make sense21:32
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nidOit doesnt21:33
filDocScrutinizer: that did the trick -- thanks :-)21:35
kerionidO: i shit you not21:36
kerioin 2g, i get roaming working fine21:36
kerio(my carrier is 3g-only)21:37
kerioevery android (and maemo apparently) phone on h3g italy can't connect21:38
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nidOcant see what possible difference the device could make21:38
ieatlintwas about to suggest... they might filter imeis for some unknown reason21:39
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kerioa model-wide imei block?21:41
nidOan imei on its own doesnt identify a device platform though, theyd need to be specifically collecting imei ranges from handset manufactures and blocking them purposefully21:41
kerioyay italy :|21:41
* toggles slaps kerio with a wet trout21:42
X-FadeOr you apn setup is just not correct ;)21:42
togglesnot yay21:42
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kerioX-Fade: or it's a widespread problem that happened to a lot of people?21:42
ieatlintnidO, definitely possible21:42
ieatlintbut weird that they'd want to21:43
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ieatlintand apn setup would only affect your data access... it'd still register with the network for voice/sms21:43
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X-Fadekerio: Well, if the default setting is just not ok.21:45
MohammadAGso, i've noticed others have been having problems with pulseaudio auto starting21:46
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MohammadAGwhat the fuck is wrong with tmo?!21:55
MohammadAGusers asking for torrentleach invites without getting their threads closed21:55
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GAN900MohammadAG, did you report the post?21:58
MohammadAGit's 6 months old, you'd think a mod would've seen it...21:59
MohammadAG(was bumped today)21:59
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VenemoMohammadAG: well then report it22:04
MohammadAGVenemo, pong :P22:04
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tugrikanother question - I don't appear to have a /usr/share/applications/hildon/ directory - has thischanged in later releases?22:08
MohammadAGno, check again22:08
alteregoIt's there :P22:09
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pupnikso what is the story behind the 808822:09
pupnikintel had something kind of usable with 808622:10
pupnikbut something happened22:10
pupnikwhy did that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, cpu dominate22:10
pupnikwhy did something so bad22:11
pupnikget sold22:11
pupnikthink about that, kids22:11
pupnikand engineer kids22:11
MohammadAGshouldn't that be in #intel (if that channel exists) :P22:11
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tugrik[root@deb-m5v3d: /usr/share/applications]pwd22:11
tugrik[root@deb-m5v3d: /usr/share/applications]id22:11
tugrikuid=0(root) gid=0(root) groups=0(root),20(dialout),29(audio),44(video),670(pulse-access)22:11
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tugrik[root@deb-m5v3d: /usr/share/applications]ls h*22:11
tugrikls: cannot access h*: No such file or directory22:11
tugrik[root@deb-m5v3d: /usr/share/applications]22:11
tugrikit's not there :)22:11
pupnikignore tugrik22:12
pupnikMohammadAG: because the 8088 was a bastard designed in Israel on a bulldozed palestinian town.22:12
pupnikthat's why 8088 was satanic22:12
MohammadAGis that your N900?22:12
lcukband is it running maemo or debian22:12
infobot[~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few : , , , , , , or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude.22:12
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tugrikah, do you have a pastebin policy?22:13
tugrikany guidelines on numbers of lines?22:13
tugrik3 lines, gotcha - cheers lcuk22:13
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pupniknow as long as future maemo/meego devices don't have INTELLIGENCE AGENCY INSIDE22:14
pupnikwe'll be ok22:14
pupnikand any fucking indication of that is to be released IMMEDIATELY22:15
pupnikto wikileaks22:15
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pupnikNO RESPECT22:15
pupnikthose people are IDIOTS22:16
alteregotugrik: 3 medium lengthed lines :P22:16
MohammadAGpupnik, ok?22:16
tugrikyeah, fair enough alterego, i'm used to smaller channels than this :)22:16
* GAN900 hands pupnik some chocolate.22:17
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pupnikGAN900: knife throwing is a great hobby22:18
pupnikpoison tip and you're good to go22:18
GAN900pupnik, I go to the range at least once a month.22:18
* pupnik nods ok.. .sorry for my tone22:19
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Arkenoi <- got a nice adapter for just $3 on the local market22:28
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Arkenoiaccidentally pasted again22:29
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MohammadAGI like those, but I'm not sure if the stress is a lot on the port22:30
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Choomwhat's with all the clones?22:30
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VenemoMohammadAG: thx for the pong :)22:37
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VenemoMohammadAG: the problem for which I pinged you has been solved :P22:37
VenemoMohammadAG: btw I found a few bugs in Qt myself :(22:37
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VenemoMohammadAG: have you reported your bug yet?22:38
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pupnik   ____22:46
pupnik  (.   \22:46
pupnik    \  |22:46
pupnik     \ |___(\--/)22:46
pupnik   __/    (  . . )22:46
pupnik  "'._.    '-.O.'22:46
pupnik       '-.  \ "|\22:46
pupnik          '.,,/'.,,22:47
pupnikimagine programming an AI that would recognize that as a 'cat'22:47
derfLooks more like a cross between a squirrel, a pig, and a bear.22:47
AppiahI was gonna say squirrel22:48
pupnikimagine programming an AI that would recognize that as an animal22:48
pupnikyou can't22:48
pupnikyou're too stupid22:49
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jottaanyone knows an applicatio for change the voice? for symbian s60 3r22:49
AppiahProgram a AI to recognize ACSII art22:49
keriojotta: #symbian22:49
Gh0stylol that looked more like a squirrel indeed Appiah :p22:50
keriothat's a squirrel22:50
Gh0stythe AI shouldnt be that good that it is better then humans :p22:50
pupnikpretty sad....22:50
pupnikno progress22:50
lcukif humans cannot confir on a recognition of what is clearly a racoon then what hope do computers have :P22:50
pupnikand the smartest people only can say how difficult it is22:50
pupnik            _,'|             _.-''``-...___..--';)22:51
pupnik           /_ \'.      __..-' ,      ,--...--'''22:51
pupnik          <\    .`--'''       `     /'22:51
pupnik           `-';'               ;   ; ;22:51
pupnik     __...--''     ___...--_..'  .;.'22:51
pupnik    (,__....----'''       (,..--''   Felix Lee22:51
Gh0styas long as my n900 does not try to kill me ... I'm alright with that22:51
keriothat's some kind of feline with a beak22:51
* Gh0sty saw too much terminator22:51
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lcukkerio, it also managed to poop out words22:52
pupnikAppiah: a smart computer would recognize that form in a sea of noise22:52
Appiahwell , we got stuff to recongize faces22:53
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Appiahmaybe we are not that far from taking pictures of things and have it say "that's a cat"22:53
jacekowski         (__)22:53
jacekowski         (oo)22:53
jacekowski   /------\/22:53
jacekowski  / |    ||22:53
jacekowski *  /\---/\22:53
jacekowski    ~~   ~~22:53
jacekowski...."Have you mooed today?"...22:54
pupnikJanet Reno!22:54
pupniknow if you squint your eyes, you see a bunch of noise text, and two or three animals22:55
pupnikhow would you program a computer to see the animals?22:55
johnsqthe poor people with  proportional font22:55
pupniknot my fault they are stupid22:56
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pupnikthere is a kind of 'energy' created by the animal shapes22:57
pupnikdirected - linear22:57
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merlin1991hm the n900 is a pretty good bookmark to put into the book when you have to google some crazy thing you just read23:03
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wmaronebit thick for a bookmark23:04
merlin1991well I don't close the book, I just use the n900 to keep the page open :D23:04
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thpyay! new bugzilla design :)23:07
johnsqthats make not less bugs23:07
merlin1991was wo?23:07
DocScrutinizer51pupnik: fuckoff ascii gfx on proportional fontset. please don't spam chan23:07
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DocScrutinizer51jacekowski: same applies23:08
pupnikDocScrutinizer51: overall Signal to noise is at a relatively comfortable level23:08
pupnikmy post was to encourage AI research23:09
thpjohnsq: but it makes browsing and fixing bugs more fun ;)23:09
pupniki'm sorry you aren't smart enough to solve the puzzle23:09
DocScrutinizer51pupnik: I givema fuck23:10
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pupnikright, you can't be interested in everything on the planet23:10
DocScrutinizer51beware, I'm grumpy23:10
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pupniki didn't want to make a habit of it23:11
pupnikjust to illustrate something23:11
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DocScrutinizer51k, me off again23:12
pupnikall this talk of 'next generation' ... blah is useless23:13
pupnikif 'meego' is "click" "swipe"23:13
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Venemobye guys23:14
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Venemohave a nice evening23:14
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MohammadAGwhy all the hatred on the channel?23:16
AfterisHello people! i have question how to make front camera work normaly? (without every time calling video police chat)23:16
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Afterisno geek's here? :)23:19
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AfterisHello people! i have question how to make front camera work normaly? (without every time calling video chat)23:20
thp(we can use pango markup in window titles.. whoohoo!) ->
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fckany help amigos?23:22
fcktovarishchi, koledzy, draugai, froinde23:23
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DocScrutinizer51fck: stop talking elbish23:24
fcksorry, front camera working on nervs23:24
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DocScrutinizer51also repeating posts after 4min won't help23:25
fckand im working on yours :) don't blame me ;) any help?23:25
fckmaybe hint where i should look?23:26
DocScrutinizer51afteris, er fck define 'front'23:27
DocScrutinizer51define normal23:27
DocScrutinizer51what's the problem23:27
infobotfrom memory, question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first:
fckfront camera23:29
fcki post before23:30
fckAfteris> Hello people! i have question how to make front camera work normaly? (without every time calling video police chat)23:30
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DocScrutinizer51front camera worked normally ever since23:31
fckvery dark :/23:31
fcki try with mirror app, also then console? mplayer tv:// device/dev/video123:32
fckit shows back camera23:33
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DocScrutinizer51video1 and video0 are mutually exclusive. There are magic incantations using gstreamer to get amazing results. Ask SpeedEvil23:36
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fckthanks! i try23:37
alteregoamazing results?23:38
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil was first to come up with nightmode video23:39
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alteregoOh cool23:39
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* MohammadAG heads to bed23:40
MohammadAGnight :)23:40
alteregoMessing with gstreamer was the first thing I did when I got the N900, had it streaming video to my laptop and stuff23:40
DocScrutinizer51night MohammadAG23:40
alteregog'night MohammadAG23:40
alteregoWhat's the better battery usage recording app?23:41
alteregoWanna test the power consumption of my app.23:41
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alteregoHeh, Does it lo23:42
alteregolog to file?23:42
alteregoCan't remember23:42 >logfile23:45
alteregoI just remember using it in console with the live update23:45
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DocScrutinizer51google for jrbme, sorry I don't have the proper links here23:49
infobotmethinks batteryfaq is
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pupnikthis is the greatest collection of people on the net23:51
pupnikright here23:51
pupnikyou're included in that23:52
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pupnikdon't insult yourself23:52
DocScrutinizer51smells like sarcasm23:52
pupnikit's kind of interesting to watch your skin turn into an old person's23:53
pupnikand kind of depressing we give half our money to parasites who kill people23:53
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pupnikbuy some knives, and sharpen them on both sides23:54
DocScrutinizer51pupnik: getting metaphoric?23:54
pupnikbest encoding there is23:54
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DocScrutinizer51I prefer XXX speech23:55
pupniki think 'badness' is a great negative marketing campaign for 201123:55
pupnikwe can make this TSA thing spread23:56
DocScrutinizer51more clear23:56
pupnikproudly advertise software freedom23:56
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pupnikthese 7th grade rejects do not determine what we may transmit23:57
pupnikthey are literally the stupid people23:57
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pupnikthe high-school bully model is all you need for human society DocScrutinizer5123:57
Choompeople don't care about "badness"23:58
Choomthey admit and excuse themselves with "weakness"23:58
Choomsee apple's example23:58
DocScrutinizer51fsck whomcares human society?23:59
pupnikChoom: ok lets get concrete23:59
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Choomnow mtter how crappy or limited their products are, the fanboys will continue to buy them23:59
pupnikChoom: yes, the fanbboys  bought the lie that IRAW had WMDs and was a DANGER to USA23:59
pupniki got banned from a lot of places for showing how that was a lie23:59

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