IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2010-06-19

LiraNuna	DocScrutinizer, if that was the case, I wouldn't get 3G if I force the phone to use it	00:00
lcuk	Stskeeps, what you pondering	00:00
DocScrutinizer	LiraNuna: yes you would	00:00
kW	DocScrutinizer: it is 64 seconds from enter to the "Connected to USB device" message	00:01
LiraNuna	DocScrutinizer, then again, if that was the case, I wouldn't be the only one reporting it	00:01
Stskeeps	lcuk: GLES performance on N8x0 possibilities	00:01
DocScrutinizer	LiraNuna: networks are complex, the tower tells your phone it should prefer 2G, and if your phone says I cant do that, then you'll simply stay on 3G	00:01
lcuk	Stskeeps, there was talk of an RGB xvideo mode	00:02
LiraNuna	DocScrutinizer, anyway to debug what the tower "says" ?	00:02
lcuk	but that the patch existed tho was not integrated i believe	00:02
DocScrutinizer	LiraNuna: I suggested previously you should visit a Nokia care center. You might have a defect antenna	00:02
LiraNuna	oh, I might've missed that	00:03
DocScrutinizer	LiraNuna: nope, not for usual mortals	00:03
lcuk	Stskeeps, it theoretically could slide under the tearing limit on n810	00:03
lcuk	for full resolution 800*480	00:03
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lcuk	i would have to dig up my notes, it was ~18 months ago i heard about it	00:03
Stskeeps	mm, not xv specifically	00:04
lcuk	something about specific desktop graphics cards also support this video mode	00:04
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lcuk	yeah Stskeeps	00:05
Stskeeps	just pushing frames manually	00:05
* lcuk remembers the conversation clearly		00:05
lcuk	as i do most things :P	00:05
DocScrutinizer	until konttori comes comes up with the service mode for cellmo	00:05
trem	nite all, sweet dreams	00:05
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Stskeeps	there's this OMAPFB_UPDATE_WINDOW thing that allows to send parts of the framebuffer to the LCD chip	00:05
* MohammadAG gives up on disassembling his PS3 controller		00:05
MohammadAG	damn spring broke, somehow	00:05
lcuk	ok Stskeeps you are thinking lower than xvideo	00:05
* nextime need to find some time to setup the developement environment to package apps for maemo		00:06
lcuk	the omapfb/lcd hardware on 810 technically supports it	00:06
Stskeeps	yeah	00:06
lcuk	but the driver needs massaging to let you send the data	00:06
lcuk	and have it shown correctly	00:06
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: It's only 16Mbytes ROM, how hard can dissasembly be? :)	00:06
DocScrutinizer	:-)	00:06
DocScrutinizer	ARM I suppose	00:06
lcuk	SpeedEvil, rolleyes	00:06
SpeedEvil	yes	00:06
* SpeedEvil catches the eyes, and rolls them back.		00:07
lcuk	Stskeeps, if the mode can be gotten to work, another possibility exists	00:08
lcuk	lower resolution xv	00:08
lcuk	say - 640*480	00:08
Stskeeps	mm	00:08
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lcuk	negligable resolution reduction, ~20 boost	00:09
lcuk	20%	00:09
lcuk	its something i showed worked in liqbase	00:09
lcuk	load original one onto 810 and see, you can dynamically alter res	00:10
Stskeeps	people scale up 720x576 video to 800x480 or how was it?	00:11
lcuk	xv supports arbritary resolution, so yeah	00:11
lcuk	you can tell it any res and it will stretch to fit	00:11
Stskeeps	mm	00:11
lcuk	the only thing xv wont do at the moment is rotate	00:12
lcuk	if the device is in portrait it still shows at 480*480 max	00:12
lcuk	will not do a full 800*480	00:13
lcuk	works great on x86 tho	00:13
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Macer	hm	00:13
Macer	think my neighborhood is being electric hogs	00:13
lcuk	its hard to boil down an example though	00:13
Macer	power keeps messing up	00:14
lcuk	because theres no drawing tools to draw on xv	00:14
lcuk	without having to include liqbase	00:14
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ultrasparc-viii	Hi all, anyone know if vpnc works on the N900	00:14
* nextime happy to see that vlc have a freemantle repository		00:14
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ultrasparc-viii	I didn't see a download for Maemo5 section, only os2008	00:15
SpeedEvil	ultrasparc-viii: Is this a commandline program - some trivial browsing would inficate it is	00:16
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SpeedEvil	http://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~massar/vpnc/ ?	00:16
ultrasparc-viii	vpnc is a cli program for initializing vpn connections with cisco vpn concentrators	00:17
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nextime	ultrasparc-viii : maybe ou can try to download it from standard debian armel repository, can't you?	00:17
ultrasparc-viii	maybe I can compile it to work on maemo5	00:17
SpeedEvil	yes, proably	00:17
lcuk	ultrasparc-viii, give it a blast!	00:17
ultrasparc-viii	yeah I'll give that a go - the debian method is probably easiest since apt will resolve deps	00:17
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nextime	http://ftp.debian.org/pool/main/v/vpnc/	00:18
ultrasparc-viii	I had it working on my n800!	00:18
ultrasparc-viii	:)	00:18
ultrasparc-viii	just ordered the n900	00:18
SpeedEvil	Congrapulations.	00:18
lcuk	http://maemo.org/packages/view/vpnc/	00:18
lcuk	ahem	00:18
lcuk	^^	00:18
nextime	ops :P	00:18
lcuk	done	00:18
lcuk	thank till	00:18
ultrasparc-viii	lcuk: thanks :)	00:18
lcuk	its directly in extras :)	00:19
lcuk	when you get your device and get o nnet its available at first attempt	00:19
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lcuk	ops no :p	00:19
lcuk	its in -devel	00:19
SpeedEvil	http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/products/	00:19
SpeedEvil	interesting	00:19
* nextime needs to do some rtfm on the maemo sdk and/or if there is any particular needs for put online a maemo specific deb repo		00:20
LiraNuna	what speeds do you guys get on 3G (not 3.5G) with your N900?	00:20
nextime	other that usual things to cross compile for armel i mean.	00:20
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, afaik it's a list sorted by the number of apps you maintain	00:20
MohammadAG	LiraNuna, 1MB, or so	00:20
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: I know	00:21
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SpeedEvil	LiraNuna: 3G is limited to 64K as I understand it.	00:21
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LiraNuna	I can't seem to get above 300KB/s	00:21
SpeedEvil	Till v-tec kicks in.	00:21
* LiraNuna is considering a reflesh		00:21
SpeedEvil	64kbits	00:21
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SpeedEvil	3.5 should be automatically switched to, to give higher speed as required	00:22
SpeedEvil	I get 150kbytes/s or so from the sofa	00:22
LiraNuna	right, I understand that	00:22
LiraNuna	oh nice	00:22
* AntiPudding pictures speedevil running like a cat to the sofaa		00:22
* SpeedEvil continues lying on the sofa.		00:23
* nextime looks at the dog sleeping near the door		00:23
* SpeedEvil is exhausted - done way too much rimming today.		00:23
SpeedEvil	Pile of resultant stuff is around the size of a small car.	00:24
SpeedEvil	s/ri/tri/	00:24
jacekowski	LiraNuna: 300k is quite good for 3.4g	00:24
jacekowski	3.5	00:24
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LiraNuna	I've seen people report several megabytes	00:24
jacekowski	nope	00:24
nextime	mumble	00:24
jacekowski	megabits	00:25
nextime	nominally 3.5G here is a lot more fast	00:25
LiraNuna	well, I get 0.3mbit	00:25
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jacekowski	no	00:25
jacekowski	you get 3Mbits	00:25
LiraNuna	speedtest.net shows 0.3mbit	00:25
jacekowski	dont trust it	00:25
* LiraNuna wgets a file from a high-speed server		00:25
Surfa	if you get 300KB/s then it's 3Mbits	00:26
SpeedEvil	I only use kernel.org	00:26
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jacekowski	LiraNuna: try jacekowski.org/big_file	00:27
nextime	uhmm	00:27
nextime	where is the pipe on the kb?	00:27
jacekowski	that's only server i trust	00:27
LiraNuna	jacekowski, I got a server too on 1gbit fiber network	00:27
LiraNuna	but I can try yours too	00:28
jacekowski	and what sort of signal do you have?	00:28
LiraNuna	shows 3.5G 4 bars	00:28
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jacekowski	hmmm	00:28
SpeedEvil	LiraNuna: you are also throttled by contention	00:29
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jacekowski	well, thing is that 3g seems to slow down a lot unless you have all bars	00:29
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SpeedEvil	LiraNuna: If you are the only one next to a 3G tower, your speed will be lots better than if there are 500 people browsing youtube	00:29
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lcuk	ways to tell: student digs where users cannot install hardline broadband == lots of wireless 3g happening	00:30
Noma	i've had 550KB/s with 3.5G :)	00:30
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LiraNuna	I'm getting 10KB/s now	00:30
LiraNuna	15KB/s	00:30
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jacekowski	move your phone to the window	00:31
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LiraNuna	I'm right next to an open door	00:31
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jacekowski	doors	00:31
vldcnst	put your hand in the air	00:31
jacekowski	doors != window	00:31
greenfly	wave it like you don't care	00:31
LiraNuna	like I just don't care?	00:31
LiraNuna	if I go outside I get 20kbps	00:32
LiraNuna	KB/s	00:32
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yigal	If i wantg a stable system do I want to install pr 1.2?	00:32
LiraNuna	yigal, 1.2 is stable	00:32
LiraNuna	I had no crashes/weird issues since installing	00:33
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SpeedEvil1	Me neither.	00:33
SpeedEvil1	Well - that's not quite true.	00:33
yigal	Sweet	00:33
LiraNuna	well, except that reception issues, but I think that's a HW issue	00:33
yigal	Oh?	00:33
SpeedEvil1	But none that were probably not triggered by me doing wierd shit	00:33
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jacekowski	battery life seems to be worse on 1.2	00:33
SpeedEvil1	Disagree personally	00:34
SpeedEvil1	not seeing a change	00:34
LiraNuna	battery life seems awesome with 1.2	00:34
LiraNuna	I got 11hours of extensive usage yesterday	00:34
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LiraNuna	GPS left and right, web browsing	00:34
SpeedEvil1	web over wifi?	00:34
lcuk	LiraNuna, i tohught gps gave a 3d position? :p	00:35
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lcuk	so not just left and right	00:35
LiraNuna	no, 3G/2.5G	00:35
LiraNuna	SpeedEvil1, was driving from LA to SF	00:35
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yigal	Ok are instructions in FAQ of maemo.org for upgrade, or where?	00:35
LiraNuna	with frequent stops and excessive GPS usage	00:35
jacekowski	you were driving and browsing?	00:35
LiraNuna	I was a passenger	00:35
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AntiPudding	i am a passenger	00:36
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nextime	ok	00:41
nextime	from here in G3.5	00:41
nextime	i can download at 500KB/s	00:41
lcuk	ok im out for a while	00:41
lcuk	gnite #maemo \o	00:41
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nextime	( trying wget on ftp.de.kernel.org )	00:42
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nextime	night lc	00:42
nextime	uk	00:42
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nextime	is there any alternative sip client other than the default one that one can suggest on fremantle	00:49
nextime	?	00:49
nextime	( as the default one can't make calls without a registrar server )	00:50
satmd	you could install asterisk locally, couldn't you?	00:51
nextime	satmd : of course i can	00:53
nextime	but i think it is a bit too heavy to use asterisk as a client :)	00:53
nextime	anyway, this is a possible work around, yes	00:53
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satmd	if the sip client does not register, it won't get incoming calls	00:53
satmd	unless it has a static ip	00:53
nextime	satmd : i have a dynamic dns :)	00:54
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nextime	satmd : and also a static ip via vpn if really needed :)	00:54
satmd	:)	00:54
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nextime	using the gui to create new connections	00:56
nextime	it doesn't let me create two different hsdpa config with two different apn	00:56
nextime	bad thing.	00:56
flailingmonkey	you want to add another apn?	00:58
flailingmonkey	get fAPN	00:58
flailingmonkey	:)	00:58
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flailingmonkey	i bet harmattan has MMS integrated care of frals	00:59
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Speedevil	http://techbuket.net/i-had-to-hammer-it-in-27.html	00:59
nextime	flailingmonkey : goof point, it is in apt?	01:00
nextime	yes, it is.	01:00
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KMFDM	Speedevil, that is teh funny	01:04
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* nextime is trying sip over hsdpa over vpn		01:08
marmoute	and it's a bit laggy maybe ?	01:08
jacekowski	jitter is probably closing on infinity	01:08
nextime	marmoute : i will say in few minutes	01:08
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nextime	theorically if you have less than 400ms of ping it is reasonable	01:09
jacekowski	well, it's jitter that kills	01:09
nextime	jacekowski : yep, but i hope to find an acceptable setup	01:09
jacekowski	so you have like 200ms in one direction	01:10
nextime	as my connection is very cheap if you don't use voip	01:10
jacekowski	with 400ms buffer for jitter	01:10
nextime	so, the only one way to use voip without pay too mutch	01:10
nextime	is to pass it inside a vpn	01:10
nextime	:)	01:10
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jacekowski	one of things that suck about voip ( sip ) is that it's not encrypted	01:10
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nextime	jacekowski : autmagically i get it also encrypted with openvpn :P	01:11
nextime	jacekowski : anyway, there are both rtps, sip-tls and zrtp	01:11
nextime	so, is there a wat to encrypt it	01:12
nextime	*way	01:12
nextime	sip-tls and zrtp are the best couple in my personal opinion	01:12
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: not necessarily jitter kills. It depends on your client's jitterbuffer	01:18
jacekowski	yeah - it requires jitterbuffer	01:18
jacekowski	so you have 200ms delay + probably twice as much for jitterbuffer	01:19
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: zrtp encrypts, but obviously both ends need to support it	01:19
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Speedevil	Also - PTT is much less jitter important	01:20
Speedevil	Hmm.	01:20
Speedevil	That would be interesting.	01:20
Speedevil	A VOIP-PTT app	01:20
DocScrutinizer	hmm	01:21
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nextime	uhmm	01:21
DocScrutinizer	I'd suggest TCP-SIP/RTP then	01:22
nextime	why are browser, osso-addressbook and hildon-something processes listening on TCP ports to 0.0.0.0?	01:22
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Speedevil	nextime: that means they will listen for connections on any interface	01:23
Speedevil	What port	01:23
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nextime	Speedevil : i know what it mean, i'm asking why they ask on 0.0.0.0	01:23
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nextime	s/ask/bind	01:24
Speedevil	dbus?	01:24
nextime	Speedevil : isn't 127.0.0.1 enough	01:24
Speedevil	I'm unsure if dbus is using tcp or nx socket	01:24
nextime	?	01:24
kW	Is any SyncEvolution developer here?	01:24
nextime	osso-conn 1251 user 20u IPv4 61657 TCP *:39501 (LISTEN)	01:24
nextime	browser 1445 user 21u IPv4 61699 TCP *:39502 (LISTEN)	01:24
nextime	hildon-st 1123 user 33u IPv4 61636 TCP *:39500 (LISTEN)	01:24
nextime	those three ports	01:25
wassup	yo, does anyone have a crack for the Sygic navigation soft?	01:25
kW	oh, that's cool... some security holes? ;-)	01:25
nextime	kW : i don't think they are vulnerable to something, but listening without the need to listen from external connection is bad pratice :)	01:26
DocScrutinizer	wassup: warning	01:26
flailingmonkey	wassup: this channel won't help you crack sygic	01:26
wassup	ok....chill	01:26
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flailingmonkey	mostly developers here	01:26
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wassup	I respect that but I was under the impression this was an open source community.	01:27
DocScrutinizer	wassup: 2nd warning	01:27
wassup	what did I do ????	01:28
DocScrutinizer	/join warezzz	01:28
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kW	DocScrutinizer: well, I think "I respect that but I was under the impression this was an open source community." is a legitimate provocation ;-)	01:28
DocScrutinizer	exactly	01:28
nextime	mumble	01:28
DocScrutinizer	a silly provocation	01:28
silbo_	hey	01:28
wassup	Just asking questions....no	01:29
nextime	i can't find a configuration file where to restrict those listening port to 127.0.0.1	01:29
flailingmonkey	wassup: you're basically implying that open source communities are populated with pirates and criminals	01:29
GAN900	wassup, provoke-the-geeks-into-doing-what-you-want fail.	01:29
Speedevil	I can supply a crack for only 70 euro!	01:29
Speedevil	:)	01:29
wassup	I'm not impying anything	01:29
wassup	implying	01:29
DocScrutinizer	just stfu!	01:29
flailingmonkey	(even if the laws involved aren't very just)	01:29
nextime	wassup : for your information, usually open source community are against piracy	01:30
kW	DocScrutinizer: well, legitimate in the sense that it might be responded with with discussion, not necessarily with sanctions :-)	01:30
nextime	wassup : why you need to pirate something if it is open source?	01:30
DocScrutinizer	no, that's really too errr, stupid	01:30
flailingmonkey	usually, they want to create legal alternatives to paying	01:30
wassup	But Sygic soft is not open source right?	01:30
DocScrutinizer	wassup: right, and the developers are in this channel	01:31
nextime	wassup : so, it doesn't fit on open source community	01:31
kW	wassup: well, do you know a license for Sygic soft?	01:31
DocScrutinizer	so...	01:31
wassup	I just wanted to try the soft and then buy it, is that wrong?	01:31
luke-jr	wassup: the open source community is very much against copyright infringement	01:31
nextime	anyway, i'm the only one that care about listening ports?	01:32
Speedevil	wassup: The ovi store has a preview version	01:32
DocScrutinizer	so go to ovi and download the trial version	01:32
luke-jr	wassup: open source is based on copyright; we take infringement very seriously	01:32
Mousey	yep, that's wrong	01:32
Speedevil	nextime: Work out what the ports are first	01:32
Mousey	to answer the question	01:32
flailingmonkey	Speedevil: he got the ports?	01:32
nextime	Speedevil : i know what processes open it	01:32
kW	nextime: no, I also think that ports should be restricted (e.g. just bind to "::1") or protected (e.g. bind to "::", but have a firewall)	01:32
nextime	but i don't know what those processes do exactly	01:32
luke-jr	flailingmonkey: open source has nothing to do with "legal alternatives to paying" either FWIW	01:33
nextime	kW : if i can't find a way to restrict those ports i will use iptables	01:33
Speedevil	nextime: strace, tcpdump, ...	01:33
luke-jr	flailingmonkey: I'm all for selling open source software	01:33
wassup	I find it very ironic that out of all people you open source advocates would be the defenders of copyright. A little bit hypocritical are we not?	01:33
luke-jr	flailingmonkey: as is anyone who is really part of the community ;)	01:33
nextime	Speedevil : of course i'm trying with tcpdump but apparently no traffic on external interfaces	01:34
luke-jr	wassup: again, open source is based on copyright	01:34
nextime	Speedevil : i'm asking cause maybe here someone know what those processes do	01:34
luke-jr	wassup: and while we may be opposed to copyright in principle, we also uphold the law	01:34
kW	nextime: you can do "tcpdump -ni lo"	01:34
wassup	You guys want to have your cake and eat it too.	01:34
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flailingmonkey	luke-jr: indeed, I should have mentioned I was going from open source to "free software"	01:35
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GAN900	open sores	01:35
flailingmonkey	different, but related	01:35
nextime	kW : i know, but i don't care on what they do, i assume that they are needed on localhost	01:35
nextime	i want to find where to config those things to listen only on localhost	01:35
nextime	:)	01:35
kW	luke-jr: well, that's not necessarily true for everybody here... ;-) I do not uphold the law to not ride a bike in the inner city between 11am and 8pm ;-)	01:35
kW	nextime: sure...	01:35
luke-jr	flailingmonkey: there is indeed a difference, but I am speaking more from the free software side :)	01:36
luke-jr	kW: I think for the free software community in general, we are fairly united on upholding copyright where it is law	01:36
luke-jr	at least for software	01:37
kW	luke-jr: well, maybe as for the community, not necessarily as for (many) individuals	01:38
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luke-jr	kW: I find copyright infringers of software tend to be people who use (illegal copies of) proprietary software	01:38
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flailingmonkey	the most important free in free software is freedom to use/modify/change	01:39
kW	luke-jr: sure, infringing open source licenses as a private person is much more difficult to achieve ;-)	01:39
luke-jr	kW: not much, actually	01:39
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luke-jr	but intentional infringement of free software licenses tends to be big companies who think they can just strong-arm anyone	01:40
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luke-jr	eg, Linksys, Nokia, nVidia	01:40
luke-jr	Nokia at least got their act together	01:40
luke-jr	Linksys just settled without really complying	01:40
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luke-jr	nVidia just gets away with it cuz everyone's too scared of the infamy they'll get from suing	01:40
flailingmonkey	i believe the term is "admitted no wrongdoing" rollseyes	01:41
luke-jr	flailingmonkey: hm?	01:41
greenfly	finally realized why my BT keyboard wasn't working with the n900 after all this time... it only supports SPP ...	01:42
kW	luke-jr: well, do you mean it is easy to infringe open source licenses as a private person? maybe you would copy binary software without copying the source... ;-)	01:42
greenfly	and I guess there isn't a serial keyboard mechanism on the n900	01:42
luke-jr	kW: publishing binaries without sources	01:42
luke-jr	when all you do is build a binary from publicly available code, you don't usually think of posting a copy of the source	01:43
kW	greenfly: well, there is a serial port AFAIK...	01:43
greenfly	I'm able to pair it as an rfcomm device	01:43
luke-jr	kW: also, technically the GPL requires you distribute the compiler binaries as part of the "source" if it isn't included with the OS IIRC	01:43
greenfly	but I suppose some other component is missing that would then cause keypresses to register	01:43
luke-jr	Windows doesn't include compilers, but nobody bothers to distribute them with bins	01:44
greenfly	I think the n8xx had a special program kbbd or something for this	01:44
greenfly	at least from what I read	01:44
kW	luke-jr: well, AFAIK the GPL also allows you as a publisher to just "offer" the source code and deliver it upon request	01:45
luke-jr	kW: yes, but then you're required to honour it for N years	01:45
luke-jr	which means you need to keep track of it :)	01:45
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		01:45
nextime	ok	01:46
nextime	issue solved	01:46
nextime	0 0 REJECT tcp -- !lo * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 tcp dpt:39502 reject-with icmp-port-unreachable	01:46
nextime	0 0 REJECT tcp -- !lo * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 tcp dpt:39501 reject-with icmp-port-unreachable	01:46
nextime	0 0 REJECT tcp -- !lo * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 tcp dpt:39500 reject-with icmp-port-unreachable	01:46
nextime	:P	01:46
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opdf2	anyone in the USA find a dumb car USB charger that works with N900 without shorting pins?	01:47
kW	luke-jr: sure... but if nobody demands the source code (and especially as a private person, you can have a bet on this), then there's no problem... and if someone demands the source code, they can either practically (although technically not satisfying the request) be redirected to the original source (where the publisher got it from), or sue for technically satisfying the request... usually it is not worth the court proceedings...	01:47
opdf2	I mean in a retail store, I need to pick one up tonight	01:48
kW	nevertheless, different question: Does anybody know how to programmatically access the contacts database?	01:48
opdf2	I found two in Microcenter, but they're only 500mA	01:48
kW	opdf2: well, I just thought about an active USB hub...	01:48
opdf2	I need something for the car	01:49
flailingmonkey	opdf2: 500mA is fast charge	01:50
luke-jr	kW: actually, they can't sue	01:50
luke-jr	kW: the original author would need to sue ;)	01:50
Speedevil	kW: they can if they are an original author.	01:50
opdf2	well I guess it really isnt 500mA because the battery level never changes	01:50
kW	luke-jr: well, AFAIK the receiver of the binary copy can sue, can't she?	01:51
luke-jr	no	01:51
luke-jr	the receipient has no legal status	01:51
* Speedevil was pondering submitting some bit of code to the kernel, as it'd be easier.		01:51
flailingmonkey	it's not their copyright thats being infringed	01:51
flailingmonkey	so no	01:51
luke-jr	Speedevil: I think I have a patch going in 2.6.36 ;)	01:51
luke-jr	Speedevil: but it's too trivial to claim copyright on, I'm afraid	01:51
kW	luke-jr: why not, she has a binding contract, defined by the "license"	01:51
DocScrutinizer	kW: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Generic_Platform_Components/Using_Address_Book_API	01:51
luke-jr	kW: the contract is between each Copier and the Author	01:52
luke-jr	kW: someone who doesn't make a copy has no contract	01:52
luke-jr	someone who makes a copy only has a contract with the author	01:52
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Speedevil	luke-jr: What is it?	01:52
luke-jr	Speedevil: trivial bugfix for p54spi on N8x0	01:53
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Speedevil	ah	01:53
Speedevil	well - that'd only be compiled on n8x0 - so it won't apply to most	01:53
Speedevil	I'd like to port mergemem into a recent kernel.	01:53
Speedevil	But - ...	01:53
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Speedevil	Core VM stuff is not a good place to start kernel hacking.	01:54
Speedevil	Simply as mergemem strikes me as a good match to n900 - as n900 has a hardware hash unit	01:54
kW	luke-jr: well, maybe this particular issue depends on local law interpretation... If person B is bound by a contract stating "Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software	01:55
kW	interchange", then this binding can be, by the virtue that it requires B to perform "for any third party", enforced by any such third party	01:55
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luke-jr	Speedevil: mergemem is already mainline... afaik	01:58
DocScrutinizer	kW: but then you as 3rd party have to prove the copier actually has agreed in such contract. And that is in the domain of the original author who linked his work to the contract	01:58
luke-jr	kW: how do you know the Copier distributed under the GPL? ;)	01:59
luke-jr	he may have negotiated a new license with the Author since that time	01:59
Speedevil	luke-jr: it's not	01:59
luke-jr	excusing him from the source requirement	01:59
kW	DocScrutinizer: sure, I have to prove this... but some software publishers using GPLed software actually go the way of performing this offer (e.g. on their website)	02:00
DocScrutinizer	kW: the original author might have negotiated special conditions for the copier, allowing him to use the OA's work in a way different to the GPL	02:00
Speedevil	luke-jr: the ksm - which is in some ways similar - is mainline.	02:00
vanadismobile	hai, is it possible to run mono/.net on maemo?	02:00
flailingmonkey	i don't know if anyone has compiled it	02:01
flailingmonkey	but I would see if there is an arm version compiled somewhere	02:01
vanadismobile	hmm, k	02:02
luke-jr	Speedevil: same thing afaik	02:02
vanadismobile	http://www.mono-project.com/Maemo	02:02
luke-jr	Speedevil: unless mergemem is the patented implementation	02:02
kW	DocScrutinizer: sure, but if person C gets the binary software from person B _and_ knows that it (that particular software copy) is GPLed, then person C can probably enforce this... judges may construct an inversion of evidence: "As the software _seems_ to be GPLed, person B must show it is not, or person B is bound by the GPL, or person B has infringed copyright, as per default, no software-copy without explicit author-agreement is regarded as legal (within	02:03
Speedevil	luke-jr: it's not - mergemem used hashes.	02:03
kW	certain limits)."	02:03
Speedevil	luke-jr: which is the patented apprach	02:03
Speedevil	luke-jr: And in some ways superior.	02:03
luke-jr	and KSM doesn't?	02:03
Speedevil	luke-jr: no	02:03
luke-jr	kW: even then, Recipient is only likely to be awarded his original purchase cost for damages	02:04
* Speedevil turns Faithless up to 11.		02:05
DocScrutinizer	kW: granted	02:05
DocScrutinizer	kW: you noticed the link?	02:05
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kW	DocScrutinizer: you mean the address book API? yes :-)	02:07
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kW	luke-jr: depends on the jurisdiction... some jurisdictions know awarding a performance order... where the defendend has to perform (something different than paying money) or face daily penalties (e.g. pay money)	02:09
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kW	DocScrutinizer: what I was more thinking of was some possibility to convert a given list of contacts into a format readable by the phone...	02:10
DocScrutinizer	kW: hmm, try vcard batch file	02:11
kW	DocScrutinizer: is there N900 software which imports batches of vcard files?	02:11
Speedevil	kW: That would be awesome! 'You have to get all plaintiffs breakfast in bed every morning for the next year'.	02:12
DocScrutinizer	it's one file with a batch of vcards	02:12
DocScrutinizer	iirc	02:12
DocScrutinizer	and yes, iirc the contacts app has a menu for that	02:12
DocScrutinizer	or was it settings-sync?	02:13
kW	Speedevil: well, the court has to assess performability when awarding such an order	02:13
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AntiPudd1ng	i have to say, i really like motorola's styling sometimes .. http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/15/exclusive-motorola-droid-x-preview/	02:17
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tgalal	could someone point me out to why the SDK fails to install on ubuntu lucid? here is where the error starts http://pastebin.com/jm015aTr	02:22
MohammadAG	~MaemoSDK	02:23
infobot	maemosdk is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo5_Final_Installation	02:23
MohammadAG	read the 10.04 notes	02:23
tgalal	great thank a lot	02:24
tgalal	thanks*	02:25
Arkenoi	AntiPudd1ng, no qwerty? sucks.	02:25
MohammadAG	thank him, not me http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=636394&postcount=8	02:25
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nextime	uhmm	02:30
nextime	not so bad	02:30
nextime	8 packets transmitted, 8 packets received, 0% packet loss	02:30
nextime	round-trip min/avg/max = 183.442/202.846/255.554 ms	02:30
nextime	Nokia-N900-51-1:~#	02:30
nextime	my asterisk server from the n900 over hsdpa inside an openvpn tunnel	02:30
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nextime	voip is working good	02:31
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Joey_Snowprano	Anyone know how to stop the N900 from continuous reboot? I just flashed the eMMC and then the firmware and it is just rebooting over and over	02:32
Joey_Snowprano	From what I was reading online people said flashing it fixed it for them. Not for me lol	02:33
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vanadismobile	Joey_Snowprano, flash it again	02:34
Joey_Snowprano	ok	02:34
kW	Different question: how can I make the LED color different dependent on whether any message is pending to be read?	02:35
Joey_Snowprano	does the order matter? emmc then firmware or no?	02:35
vanadismobile	why are you flashing emmc?	02:36
Joey_Snowprano	because i reflashed the firmware first and it didn't fix the continuous reboot	02:36
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kW	Joey_Snowprano: press the 'U' key while it is rebooting	02:38
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Speedevil	kW: Umm... mce	02:39
Speedevil	kW: I would give you more information, but, my network connection is currently going at 128kbits, and my n900 is updating repo list.	02:39
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DrIDK	How do you call desktop widget ?	02:40
kW	Speedevil: hmm... well, the LED thing is not on the top priority list... but syncing contacts between N900 and some linux PIM package is... is this possible?	02:40
Speedevil	no clue	02:42
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Joey_Snowprano	Ot goes Nokia screen...ugh	02:50
Psi	just saw the google CL thing on slashdot, hopefully it will get to n900 :)	02:53
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DocScrutinizer	kW: what's with LED?	02:54
Joey_Snowprano	I have reflashed several times now and the N900 won't stop rebooting	02:55
Psi	i take it you have removed the battery for 30sec	02:55
Joey_Snowprano	Yeah	02:56
kW	DocScrutinizer: well, if I get a message by jabber, I think it would be fine if the LED actually indicated that a message is waiting	02:56
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: if it doesn't stop rebooting, how did you flash anyway?	02:56
Joey_Snowprano	holding U when turning it on	02:56
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: ok	02:56
Joey_Snowprano	then used the flasher program	02:56
Joey_Snowprano	this reboot cycle isn't showing the 5 circles/dots like the previous one was	02:57
Joey_Snowprano	it's just nokia screen, vibrate, blank, repeat	02:57
nextime	mumble	02:57
DocScrutinizer	sounds like weak battery	02:57
Psi	Joey_Snowprano: got a usd card in the slot? might be a good idea to remove it	02:57
Psi	sim too	02:57
* nextime doesn't understand why over vpn ping is working one way		02:57
Joey_Snowprano	haven't tried removing sim	02:58
nextime	( but tcp connection work both way )	02:58
Joey_Snowprano	but i took the microsd card out	02:58
Psi	hm..	02:58
Joey_Snowprano	regarding weak battery it was fully charged this morning	02:58
Psi	not much else i can think of but doing a FULL reflash that actually erases everything	02:58
Psi	i forget what its called	02:58
Joey_Snowprano	halfway through day it was way lower then normal	02:58
Joey_Snowprano	buttons stopped working, blue led kept flashing but I had no new message	02:58
Joey_Snowprano	couldn't power it off only touch screen worked	02:59
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Joey_Snowprano	had to remove battery and put back in to get it boot up properly	02:59
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DocScrutinizer	so now you flashed with empty battery ?	02:59
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Joey_Snowprano	no i charged battery to like 75%	03:00
Joey_Snowprano	but then it did it again with the buttons not working and the battery wont charge	03:00
Joey_Snowprano	i think the battery is screwed?	03:00
* MohammadAGRX-51 scratches head, and says oops		03:00
DocScrutinizer	maybe	03:00
Psi	does the n900 run without a battery?	03:00
Joey_Snowprano	well it just stopped reboot cycle battery might be completley dead now lol	03:01
flailingmonkey	no, must have battery	03:01
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Psi	hm.. yeah, testing a different battery is definitly something to try	03:01
Joey_Snowprano	turned it back on and it's just continuous reboot again	03:01
Joey_Snowprano	except this time with the 5 dots after nokia screen	03:02
flailingmonkey	I don't know if N900 even charges a completely empty battery	03:02
DocScrutinizer	Psi: no	03:02
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DocScrutinizer	flailingmonkey: it does. Usually	03:03
flailingmonkey	for example, take battery out, plug in charger, you'll get nothing	03:03
DocScrutinizer	flailingmonkey: what's that?	03:03
Speedevil	Is it possible to log out of maemo.org?	03:03
flailingmonkey	DocScrutinizer: thought it needed to detect battery and some other stuff	03:03
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DocScrutinizer	you thought right	03:03
flailingmonkey	some people might think that you could run it without battery, if you have charger connected	03:04
DocScrutinizer	they will learn better	03:04
DrIDK	Is it possible to use Maemo Window X Decoration on my PC ?	03:04
flailingmonkey	like some laptops are able to, but thats not the case :)	03:04
flailingmonkey	probably not, i think maemo uses a modified x server? plus all the hildon modified gtk+ stuff	03:05
flailingmonkey	i am just talking out of my ass here though :P	03:06
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: we had similar case a few days ago. Recharge your battery by any other means than N900. Will probably fix the issue	03:06
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Joey_Snowprano	ok	03:06
flailingmonkey	brb	03:06
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DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: your battery is empty, and reflashing in that state seems not to help	03:06
Joey_Snowprano	yeah I gotta find a way to charge it	03:06
Psi	does the n900 bat have a coulomb counter inside?	03:07
DocScrutinizer	http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/power/batteries/nokia-battery-bl-5j/compatibility	03:07
DocScrutinizer	Psi: no	03:07
Speedevil	Psi: no	03:07
Psi	well that makes it easier	03:07
DocScrutinizer	makes no difference	03:07
Speedevil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Charge_Meter	03:07
Joey_Snowprano	If i order a replacement battery you think it will come with enough charge on it?	03:08
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: maybe the URL I posted gives you some ideas... Friends, brother....	03:08
Psi	Joey_Snowprano: if you have a multimeter you could measure the voltage of the battery	03:08
DocScrutinizer	Psi: won't help	03:09
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: probably a freshly bought battery has enough capacity, yes	03:09
Joey_Snowprano	i need a spare anyways	03:09
Speedevil	There are also alternatives	03:10
Joey_Snowprano	not the circumstances i wanted to get one though lol	03:10
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: are you a technical guy?	03:10
Joey_Snowprano	well enough	03:10
pexi	its always good to visit the battery university :) http://www.batteryuniversity.com/	03:11
Speedevil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/USB-UNIVERSAL-CHARGER-MOBILES-CAMERA-PSP-BATTERY-/260618510061?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_SM&hash=item3cae12deed - for example	03:11
Speedevil	I would trust this to charge the battery for an hour or so.	03:11
Speedevil	I would question if it's a good idea to use it regularly	03:11
Psi	if it was me id probably just twist some wires around phone + and - terminals put battery in and connect wires to psu set at 3.8V, see if it booted then	03:12
pexi	battery university suggests low voltage charger for lion	03:12
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Speedevil	Joey_Snowprano: I assume you'renot in Fife, Scotland?	03:13
pexi	cycles lasts longer	03:13
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pexi	i.e. battery capacity	03:14
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Joey_Snowprano	lol no i am Orlando Florida	03:15
Speedevil	Well - that'd make my offer to let you borrow a battery for 4 min less useful :)	03:16
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pexi	http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-21.htm	03:16
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pexi	am I risking loosing my google calendar notes if I sync through MFE?	03:20
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DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: the reason this happens is probably the voltage of the battery is just high enough to make the phone think it can boot safely. but then when all the greedy stuff like backlight etc kicks in, the voltage drops under minimum level, and phone resets	03:22
Joey_Snowprano	ok	03:23
Speedevil	I would suggest trying connecting it to a computer first - not the wall charger	03:23
Speedevil	this can cause it to charge a tiny bit more before trying to boot	03:23
DocScrutinizer	this isn't supposed to happen, as voltage of cell shouldn't drop that much. And also there should be reasonable hysteresis between the 2 thresholds	03:24
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Speedevil	yes	03:24
DocScrutinizer	and phone is supposed to enter an emergency charging mode without booting, when cell is really depleted	03:24
Speedevil	It does - but it seems that the threshold is just a little wrong I guess	03:25
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Speedevil	Joey_Snowprano: Oh - also - I'd try takingthe SIM out	03:25
Joey_Snowprano	yeah i took the sim out	03:25
Joey_Snowprano	it does continuous reboot then eventually stops	03:25
DocScrutinizer	anyway shit happens, and if cell impedance is going a little up due to aging, or you got oxidized contacts, or tthe battery is cold or warm or it's full moon...	03:26
Joey_Snowprano	phone wont charge while it's off though will it?	03:26
Speedevil	Joey_Snowprano: yes, it will	03:26
Speedevil	Try leaving it on charge overnight.	03:26
Speedevil	Others have reported success when doing that	03:26
Joey_Snowprano	ok wall charger or through usb on computer?	03:26
Speedevil	Though Idon't understandwhy	03:26
DocScrutinizer	when it's charging it always has a yellow light	03:26
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Speedevil	I don'tthink it mattersmuch forthis - wallcharger?	03:27
DocScrutinizer	anyway if it keeps bootlooping, then it definitely won't charge	03:27
Speedevil	yeah	03:28
DocScrutinizer	if you get it connected to charger or PC and staying quiet, then chances are it does charge	03:28
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Joey_Snowprano	wonder what caused this though	03:29
Joey_Snowprano	wonder if it was the charger, the phone, or the battery	03:29
DocScrutinizer	only though if battery was in, when you connected to usb/charger. Inserting battery after connecting carger won't help	03:30
DocScrutinizer	Speedevil: (don't think it matters) wallcharger has D-short	03:30
DocScrutinizer	->500	03:30
DocScrutinizer	so definitely wallcharger	03:31
kW	I have to re-raise the question: does anybody successfully sync his contacts and calendar data with a linux desktop box?	03:31
DocScrutinizer	sync? nope	03:31
DocScrutinizer	though I heard legends it could be done	03:31
kW	Well... we have 15 years of history of portable digitale devices, and the sync-problem is still not solved... that's quite wird	03:32
kW	weird...	03:32
DocScrutinizer	yep	03:32
DocScrutinizer	:-S	03:32
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DocScrutinizer	My take on that is vcard import export	03:33
kW	(I know the technology how to solve this, but I don't have time and resources to actually implement and advocate it...)	03:33
kW	but this effectively means that the user needs to keep track of which version of which vcard is current manually	03:33
DocScrutinizer	Kontact has vcard resource as an option for contacts database	03:33
DocScrutinizer	hmm, basically yes	03:34
DocScrutinizer	though vcard import never overwrites old contacts	03:34
DocScrutinizer	and at least Kontact can join contacts (iirc)	03:34
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kW	hmm	03:35
kW	is this problem just nokia- or linux-specific or does it also exist in the windows world?	03:35
nextime	uff	03:36
nextime	i hate when networking isn't what should be	03:36
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nextime	and apparently for no reason	03:37
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Joey_Snowprano	bah it doesn't charge through computer when in USB mode does it?	03:38
Joey_Snowprano	no orange led	03:38
Joey_Snowprano	nevermind it's solid	03:39
Joey_Snowprano	i'm an idiot	03:39
DocScrutinizer	computer is suboptimal. It'll charge with 100mA only and maybe the computer eventually decides to power off the USB. Use the wallcharger!	03:42
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DocScrutinizer	emergency charging was designed with wallcharger in mind	03:43
Joey_Snowprano	is it charging though with wallcharger when it just does continuous reboot?	03:43
Joey_Snowprano	when i plug in wallcharger it automatically tries to boot up	03:43
DocScrutinizer	nope	03:43
DocScrutinizer	hmm, that's weird why it doesn't do that on PC then	03:43
Joey_Snowprano	because i hold down U for PC and it goes into usb mode	03:44
DocScrutinizer	probably the higher charge current rises the voltage above the boot threshold	03:44
DocScrutinizer	it doesn't chatge in USB mode afaik	03:45
DocScrutinizer	charge	03:45
DocScrutinizer	and actually USB mode means the system booted cleanly	03:45
Joey_Snowprano	ok	03:45
DocScrutinizer	so this is still a not completely understood issue	03:46
Joey_Snowprano	lol	03:46
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DocScrutinizer	are there chances your 97 flashs all failed?	03:46
Joey_Snowprano	yeah	03:47
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ptl	how can I buy stuff on Ovi Store? I've tried half a dozen proxies from different countries and it always say "Sorry, this item is not available for your country". How can I buy Zen Bound?	03:47
MohammadAG51	move to another country	03:48
kW	Joey_Snowprano: using 'u', you have been able to flash everything and still the system reboots all the time?	03:48
Joey_Snowprano	I flashed firmware first and it didn't fix issue	03:48
Joey_Snowprano	did emmc and firmware next	03:48
Joey_Snowprano	and it didn't fix it either	03:49
ptl	MohammadAG51: tried US, CZ, France, Germany, Sweden, China	03:49
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: anyway, you might be able to "switch off" the device from usb mode. So it should enter a clean charging state which is basically a minimal system that's ACTing_DEAD	03:49
Joey_Snowprano	but now i wonder if there was enough battery to sucessfully flash	03:49
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kW	Joey_Snowprano: ah... you mean the flash failed?	03:49
Joey_Snowprano	i didn't get any errors or anything	03:49
MohammadAG51	windows eh?	03:50
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MohammadAG51	you typed the full path to the file right?	03:50
Joey_Snowprano	the cmd prompt went through fine	03:50
kW	Joey_Snowprano: well, maybe you can confirm that you flashed correctly by reading the data from the device?	03:50
Joey_Snowprano	yeah	03:50
MohammadAG51	run cmd as administrator	03:50
MohammadAG51	then cd into into the Maemo Flasher directory	03:50
Joey_Snowprano	ok in the flasher directory	03:51
DocScrutinizer	double check the filenames of the two images you downloaded	03:52
DocScrutinizer	post them here	03:52
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Joey_Snowprano	pretty positive i typed full file path names correctly because I pressed tab and it automatically did the file	03:52
DocScrutinizer	yep	03:53
Joey_Snowprano	RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.002_PR_COMBINED_002_ARM	03:53
Joey_Snowprano	RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM	03:53
DocScrutinizer	failwale!	03:53
DocScrutinizer	they don't match	03:53
Joey_Snowprano	uh oh	03:53
Joey_Snowprano	did i download the wrong one?	03:54
DocScrutinizer	obviously?	03:54
Joey_Snowprano	first time i have ever flashed using cmd so what did i do wrong?	03:54
DocScrutinizer	I'd guess the vanilla should have same version number?	03:54
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DocScrutinizer	2010.13-2.VANILLA	03:55
* AntiPudd1ng like s banana		03:55
DocScrutinizer	I guess is wrong. There should be a 2010.19 file, no? (not sure as I never did the 1.2 shuffle)	03:55
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Joey_Snowprano	There is eMMC content 1.2009.41-1 and eMMC content 10.2010.13-2 for the eMMC images	03:56
kW	DocScrutinizer: well, as far as I can recognize, I also used a 13-er emmc file and a 19-er PR file	03:56
Joey_Snowprano	maybe the order i did was wrong?	03:57
DocScrutinizer	ok, so probably I'm wrong	03:57
Joey_Snowprano	i did emmc then firmware	03:57
kW	I used RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin and then RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin	03:57
DocScrutinizer	you must NOT boot between the two flashes	03:57
MohammadAG51	right combo	03:57
MohammadAG51	indeed, follow the updated instructions	03:58
Joey_Snowprano	yeah i did emmc without -R	03:58
DocScrutinizer	as long as you don't boot in between them it's rather meaningless which sequence	03:58
Joey_Snowprano	then the firmware with -R	03:58
kW	Joey_Snowprano: why do you have a "1.002" in your filename?	03:58
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DocScrutinizer	kW: ??	03:59
Joey_Snowprano	kw that's the USA release of the firmware 1.2	03:59
Joey_Snowprano	it just downloaded that way	03:59
DocScrutinizer	aah	03:59
kW	Joey_Snowprano: I see	03:59
kW	I used the global release in my case	03:59
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Joey_Snowprano	maybe i should try global? i don't know what differences there are	04:00
kW	Joey_Snowprano: maybe it is an idea to flash an older firmware, or meego for example, just to determine whether the problem is specific to the firmware version (or more specific to the device)	04:00
kW	I don't know either	04:00
Speedevil	Oooh!!!!	04:00
Speedevil	http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/06/introducing-google-command-line-tool.html	04:00
Joey_Snowprano	now i wonder if the battery has enough juice for it	04:00
Speedevil	GoogleCL is a pure Python application that uses the Python gdata libraries to make Google Data API calls from the command line.	04:01
DocScrutinizer	I suggest you charge your battery. We had exactly same bootlooping madness here some 4 days ago. Was fixed with a new battery, and then it turned out the old was as good as the new one, after charging it	04:01
kW	Joey_Snowprano: well, once you can boot from any these firmwares, the battery problem should vanish	04:01
Joey_Snowprano	ok	04:01
Joey_Snowprano	i just don't know if it's charging in usb mode connected to PC	04:02
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Joey_Snowprano	because it just loops when i use wall charger	04:02
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kW	and when you use 'U'?	04:02
DocScrutinizer	you'll see tomorrow. Is the indicator LED on?	04:02
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Joey_Snowprano	use U with wallcharger it didn't go into USB mode	04:02
kW	(can you unplug it from the computer after using 'U' and then use a wall charger?)	04:02
kW	or will it just reboot-cycle (or will it just shut off)?	04:03
Speedevil	http://code.google.com/p/googlecl/wiki/ExampleScripts - who was wondering aabout google calendar stuff earlier?	04:03
DocScrutinizer	you'll see tomorrow. Is the indicator LED on?	04:04
Joey_Snowprano	ok	04:04
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Joey_Snowprano	so i unplugged the usb from computer	04:04
Joey_Snowprano	quickly plugged in wallcharger	04:04
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kW	Joey_Snowprano: and...? :-)	04:04
Joey_Snowprano	i now have a flashing orange led	04:04
kW	well, that's nice :-)	04:04
Joey_Snowprano	and the device is not trying to boot lol	04:05
DocScrutinizer	very good	04:05
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kW	is the flashing slow?	04:05
Joey_Snowprano	yes it is	04:05
kW	well, this is an indicator that after fully recharging, you may be able to ordinarily boot the device, I believe	04:06
Joey_Snowprano	ok	04:06
kW	because that slow flashing is actually "ACTDEAD"-mode AFAIK	04:06
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DocScrutinizer	if you care, you shoild look after it every hour. as it might suddenly stop charging, or continue bootlooping or just do other weird things. If it's green in 3h you're done with the battery. Then redo flashing	04:06
DocScrutinizer	kW: yep	04:06
DocScrutinizer	kinda	04:06
kW	so it _did_ boot that far...	04:06
Joey_Snowprano	ok so once greenlighted should I just reflash or try turning it on?	04:07
kW	well, doesn't matter, you can reflash for sure	04:07
Joey_Snowprano	ok because i will have enough juice on the battery	04:07
DocScrutinizer	you'll probably turn it on anyway	04:07
kW	but you can also reflash later after looking what will happen :-)	04:07
DocScrutinizer	yep	04:08
Joey_Snowprano	well this was fun	04:08
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Joey_Snowprano	i appreciate you guys taking the time to help brainstorm and troubleshoot this with me	04:08
DocScrutinizer	it's actually interesting if the bootloops are a borked system or simply the particular battery state alone	04:08
kW	DocScrutinizer: I had similar things with the openmoko freerunner... booting worked fine, until the GSM chip was powered on	04:09
DocScrutinizer	lol, yes	04:09
kW	(in case of a low battery)	04:09
DocScrutinizer	N900 and FR have quite some things in common :-P	04:09
kW	well, I'm just in the process of switching to the N900 because I want to loose some of the common things... ;-)	04:09
DocScrutinizer	:-D	04:10
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DocScrutinizer	actually the FR charging was even worse than N900 hardware	04:11
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kW	yes, but the FR could boot without battery... and charge then	04:12
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* DocScrutinizer wonders how long the capacitors would keep a state of the 1707, when battery is taken out		04:12
DocScrutinizer	kW: only after A6	04:13
DocScrutinizer	with A6	04:13
DocScrutinizer	during...	04:13
DocScrutinizer	nobody knows :-P	04:13
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kW	DocScrutinizer: well, A6 seems to be the hardware revision of my freerunner "copy"	04:13
DocScrutinizer	C1707=100uF fixed it	04:13
luke-jr	anyone know: if two towns are in the same rate center, does that imply they have the same local-calling-from areas?	04:14
DocScrutinizer	or was it 1767?	04:14
kW	well, I don't now :-)	04:14
DocScrutinizer	now that's a question no european user even knows the meaning of the words ;-P	04:15
kW	luke-jr: well, this depends probably on the country you are talking about...	04:15
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luke-jr	kW: Nebraska	04:15
DocScrutinizer	USA I knew it. 3rd world :-P	04:16
kW	DocScrutinizer: in thailand, it is possible to have long distance calls within the same prefix area	04:16
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kW	luke-jr: well, I do not know how it is in Nebraska	04:16
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: you give the USA too much credit. worse than 3rd world	04:17
luke-jr	prefix area != rate center	04:17
DocScrutinizer	I know 98% of Americans have really weird ideas about how telephone exchange works	04:17
kW	DocScrutinizer: well, "only" 1/6 of the U.S: population are below the poverty line	04:18
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luke-jr	http://www.localcallingguide.com/lca_exch.php?exch=119690	04:18
DocScrutinizer	I honestly have no idea what a rate center might be	04:19
DocScrutinizer	and the idea to get charged for inbound minutes is like you're talking about the big fish swimming in the moon	04:19
luke-jr	aka exchange?	04:20
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: I don't get charged for inbound minutes. Not even monthly.	04:20
DocScrutinizer	we got no exchange here, the way you Americans seem to think about them	04:20
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kW	luke-jr: that's quite interesting: the local-call-graph is not even symmetric	04:21
DocScrutinizer	we also got no free municipal calls	04:21
kW	that is, there are cases where A calling B is a local call but B calling A is not	04:21
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kW	DocScrutinizer: tell, how do you think americans think how exchanges work?	04:22
DocScrutinizer	I remeber some dude trying to explain to me about last 7 numbers, and local prefex being the next 3 or sth, and that's not area but exchange	04:23
DocScrutinizer	and allegedly the 7 is a fixed number of digits	04:23
DocScrutinizer	ther's no 6 digit numbers and no 8 digit numbers, and ahhh I don't remember, it was too weird	04:24
kW	DocScrutinizer: well, in france, there is also an attempt to make telephone numbers fixed length	04:24
DocScrutinizer	yeah, it's a nice to have, but has no impact whatsoever on how a call gets connected	04:25
DocScrutinizer	you start with the first digit, not with the last	04:25
kW	sure, it has no impact... and it has weird effects, such as companies which grow need to renumber everything, because the cannot just add more digits	04:26
DocScrutinizer	yep	04:26
DocScrutinizer	but they CAN do that, without breaking the scheme of their local exchange	04:26
kW	using "extensions"?	04:26
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DocScrutinizer	I meant they CAN renumber and then add another 4 digits	04:27
DocScrutinizer	and the exchange won't care, as the exchange doesn't look at the digits after its own code	04:28
DocScrutinizer	actually nowadays you got the equivalent to a DNS, so every number can be everywhere	04:29
DocScrutinizer	I could move from south of Germany to North and technically could take my full number with me	04:30
kW	the equivalent... or actual DNS like e164.arpa?	04:30
DocScrutinizer	e164.arpa is mainly for SIP	04:30
DocScrutinizer	aiui	04:30
DocScrutinizer	but yes, exactly this type of thing	04:31
kW	well, you are not allowed to take your number with you if you, although it is technically possible	04:31
DocScrutinizer	yes	04:31
DocScrutinizer	except if you got a non-geographical number	04:32
DocScrutinizer	e.g a vanity number	04:32
DocScrutinizer	also really huge companies sometimes move to another town and keep their area code of ld town	04:32
DocScrutinizer	old*	04:33
kW	oh	04:33
DocScrutinizer	Siemens e.g.	04:33
kW	how much do you have to pay to get an areay of an area code modified? ;-)	04:33
DocScrutinizer	dunno	04:33
kW	in switzerland, they effectively removed the area codes altogether	04:33
kW	and luxemburg never had area codes	04:34
DocScrutinizer	hehe	04:34
DocScrutinizer	it had luxemburg	04:34
DocScrutinizer	small enough an area	04:34
kW	hmm, you're probably right	04:35
DocScrutinizer	in he former times (like the 70s) you could even tell if a number is north or south or any other quarter of a town. Not now	04:36
kW	you did not have an area-code-prefix (a '0') though	04:36
DocScrutinizer	in luxemburg?	04:37
kW	yes, AFAIK	04:38
DocScrutinizer	no surprise	04:38
DocScrutinizer	they had only one area, so no area code -> no area prefix	04:38
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kW	this is what I was telling ;-)	04:40
kW	but I was wrong	04:40
DocScrutinizer	dialing the country code like +51 or whatever from anywhere in the world connects you to 'area' luxemburg. All you need is the base number then - probably 7 digits	04:40
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DocScrutinizer	anyway tel number are read from left to right (if arabic), and not anything else	04:42
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DocScrutinizer	and USA people sometimes seem to disagree on that	04:42
kW	DocScrutinizer: oh well, do they "type" the numbers in the same order as they read them?	04:42
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DocScrutinizer	no idea	04:43
kW	hehe	04:43
MohammadAG51	writing tel numbers in arabic is f'd up	04:43
MohammadAG51	I use english numbers only	04:44
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kW	MohammadAG51: probably what DocScrutinizer calls arabic _is_ what you call english	04:44
MohammadAG51	but last time i saw an arabic number, it was LTR not RTL :)	04:44
DocScrutinizer	we got a nice system here: railway phone network. You need to skip from node to node. So depending where you are you get completely different 'numbers' to dial for same destination	04:44
MohammadAG51	kW, wait... so I'm speaking dutch right now?	04:45
kW	DocScrutinizer: the same error everywhere (including the railway phone network), routing-information confused with identification information	04:46
kW	MohammadAG51: not necessarily, why?	04:46
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DocScrutinizer	I just learn they are indian digits, in Europe known as indian-arabian digits o.O	04:47
kW	hehe	04:47
* MohammadAG51 never knew indians had the same number "symbols"		04:48
DocScrutinizer	I'm puzzled. I'm using european version of indian-arabian digits :-o	04:49
MohammadAG51	i'm confused	04:50
MohammadAG51	lol	04:50
DocScrutinizer	actually the don't, but they seem to consist of 9 digits and a zero symbol often a dot or ring, and are written left to right base10	04:50
MohammadAG51	i also fell asleep for 3 mins	04:50
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MohammadAG51	so... night :)	04:50
DocScrutinizer	night	04:50
DocScrutinizer	http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabische_Zahlen	04:51
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DocScrutinizer	seems /sbin/preinit changed quite a it from 1.1.1 to 1.2	05:02
DocScrutinizer	bit*	05:02
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DocScrutinizer	kW: the bootmenu stuff was there in 1.1.1 as well	05:04
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kW	DocScrutinizer: that could be	05:08
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dotblank	Does the on-screen keyboard in pr1.2 not work in portrait mode?	05:23
Termana	good morning	05:23
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DocScrutinizer	dotblank: did it prior to pr1.2?	05:26
Joey_Snowprano	ok got a green light now lol	05:27
dotblank	it worked prior	05:27
DocScrutinizer	dotblank: I'd guess in portrait it would get really small and tiny	05:27
dotblank	it had a different layout in portrait before 1.2	05:27
DocScrutinizer	dotblank: so how would you invoke vkbd in portrait mode on 1.1.1?	05:28
dotblank	I want the old on screen keyboard back	05:28
dotblank	find an app that supported portrait find an empty text box	05:28
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: so check now if it still bootloops	05:28
dotblank	then it would pop up	05:28
DocScrutinizer	tell me an app	05:28
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dotblank	um....	05:28
DocScrutinizer	I don't know a single one	05:28
Joey_Snowprano	i am, just turned it on. It's on the 5 dots screen	05:29
dotblank	thinking	05:29
Joey_Snowprano	and it loaded	05:29
Joey_Snowprano	VICTORY!	05:29
dotblank	Oh i made one	05:29
DocScrutinizer	LOOOOL	05:29
dotblank	thats right	05:29
dotblank	got the qt 4.6 on a pr 1.1.1 device	05:29
dotblank	and I tested auto rotation	05:29
DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: so that's a FAT ticket :-P	05:30
Joey_Snowprano	Thanks for the help	05:31
Joey_Snowprano	Like sincerely thank you	05:31
DocScrutinizer	dotblank: right - 1.1.1 had no portrait mode (mostly) and afaik no way to invoke the vkbd in any of the 2.3 apps that (inofficially) supported portrait	05:32
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* DocScrutinizer wonders whether to drain his battery to the point of loopings		05:33
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LiraNuna	<dotblank> find an app that supported portrait find an empty text box	05:37
LiraNuna	it just rotates the screen	05:37
LiraNuna	but the keyboard shows up for 2 seconds	05:37
Joey_Snowprano	working like a champ now	05:37
LiraNuna	(swap duration)	05:37
DocScrutinizer51	well battery icon is half black - guess I'll actually try my luck and see what's going to happen	05:38
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DocScrutinizer	Joey_Snowprano: :-))	05:39
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dotblank	Migh have to make my own vkbd	05:40
dotblank	kinda important to have vkbd to work	05:41
rodald	hi, can someone help me flash my device step by step, it died this morning when i was uninstalling some programs, i uninstalled a program called Linux Kernel for power users that came with an app called mobile hot spot, and then it just rebooted and the screen never came back	05:41
DocScrutinizer	oooohnoes	05:41
DocScrutinizer	one deja vu after the other	05:42
DocScrutinizer	rodald: you need to reflash rootfs (and kernel)	05:43
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rodald	and how do i do that?	05:43
DocScrutinizer	~tell rodald about flashing	05:43
rodald	right now i am trying to download the Nokia Software Updater, will it work?	05:44
DocScrutinizer	when you're thru with flashing, please go to the website of the mob. hotspot and shout at them as loud as you can	05:45
rodald	i am planing to >:(	05:45
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DocScrutinizer	rodald: you should use the flasher.3.5.1 or what it's called	05:47
DocScrutinizer	I gather NSU doesn't work for your problem	05:48
rodald	should i use this one RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin, this one RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin or both of them	05:49
DocScrutinizer	the second one, COMBINED	05:50
DocScrutinizer	no need to flash EMMC	05:50
rodald	what do you mean with combined	05:50
dotblank	What a bummer that vkbd only works in landscape	05:50
dotblank	im super sad :(	05:50
DocScrutinizer	rodald: look at the file name	05:51
DocScrutinizer	there's VANILLA and COMBINED	05:51
rodald	ohhh sorry, thank you	05:51
DocScrutinizer	rodald: carefully study the wikipage infobot sent you	05:52
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rodald	one question will that one work if the firmware wasnt the PR 1.2 i had the one before that	05:53
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DocScrutinizer	then you'd possibly prefer to use the 50.2009 some +/- version of the above file. Or you update to 1.2 'en passant'	05:54
DocScrutinizer	so yes, it will work - that's what 80% of people do to upgrade from your version to the new PR1.2	05:55
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rodald	and how do i update to 1.2 with the VANILLA one	05:55
DocScrutinizer	just flash it	05:55
DocScrutinizer	nah, you don't need to upgrade the vanilla file	05:56
DocScrutinizer	just flash the combined	05:56
rodald	so in conclusion i can use the X-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin even if it wasnt PR1.2	05:57
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DocScrutinizer	yes	05:57
DocScrutinizer	I hope you have a recent backup though. otherwise you'll need to install all your apps again	05:58
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe that's not the worst thing, as I guess there is at least one app you don't want to be restored after upgrade ;-D	05:59
rodald	yes i do but i am having second toughts to do so because that will install the kernel i uninstalled again	05:59
DocScrutinizer	exactly	05:59
DocScrutinizer	you can select on restore on a per app level iirc	06:00
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DocScrutinizer	so maybe you have a look into backup app neverheless	06:00
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DocScrutinizer	at least it can restore your themes, your desktop widgets etc, and you can opt out from installing any apps	06:01
rodald	ah ok good to know :) now i only have to wait for the file to download :\|	06:01
DocScrutinizer	rodald: you can create a new backup, after upgrade/flashing, and then restore that immediately, to practice and check it	06:03
DocScrutinizer	obviously restoring to the just backup'd state can't do any harm	06:04
rodald	i guess	06:04
DocScrutinizer	when you feel confident then select the real backup file to restore	06:04
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rodald	but first i have to get out of this bad experience	06:04
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rodald	at least i am lerning how to flash :)	06:05
DocScrutinizer	will work, no worries :-)	06:05
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PradaBrada	hey guys wuts going on in this chatroom?	06:09
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Joey_Snowprano	heading to bed. Thanks once again	06:12
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rodald	right now i wish i have a faster internet connection only 31.9 out of 179.2 : (	06:12
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dotblank	If I have a dialog in qt on maemo what signal is sent to the widget/window if the area outside is clicked	06:58
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LiraNuna	I just flashed eMMC image and rootfs	08:02
LiraNuna	and the settings seem to be set on 3G pone mode as opposed to Dual	08:02
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ham5	apt to switch that	08:09
Stskeeps	morn	08:11
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AntiPudd1ng	http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/06/introducing-google-command-line-tool.html $ google docs edit --title "Shopping list" --editor vim	09:01
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Dassu	O_O	09:05
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AntiPudd1ng	http://alteeve.com/~lance/bally/bb_ovrl2.gif let's write an emulator for Bally Basic	09:26
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th3hate	i messed m device up..	10:12
th3hate	someone help me?	10:12
AntiPudd1ng	what device?	10:12
th3hate	i installed MAFW equalizer	10:13
th3hate	then wrote apt-get remove mafw-gst-renderer	10:13
th3hate	now the media player is completely gone	10:13
th3hate	even the widget	10:13
th3hate	any way to restore it?	10:13
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marcus	Heya guys. What is the theme name for Digital Nature (orange one) in /usr/share/themes?	10:16
marcus	I am trying to mod the transitions.ini	10:16
marcus	And if I mod /usr/share/hildon-desktop/transitions.ini, will it then be changed right away? the effects.	10:20
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th3hate	yes no need to restart	10:24
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marcus	th3hate: I can see that now, really nice. Do you have experience in modding it?	10:28
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DantonicN900	hey I just started having an issue, the bluetooth will no longer transmit voice to any device. Media works fine, just voice... any idea what is going on?	10:30
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marcus	You sure the mic is working fine?	10:35
DantonicN900	yes, regular calls work	10:36
DantonicN900	besides it's the audio being received, not my audio	10:39
DantonicN900	I can't hear the other caller	10:39
DantonicN900	not sure if they can hear me...	10:40
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marcus	Hmm, was it dead on arrival?	10:45
DantonicN900	had it since december...	10:50
DantonicN900	was working fine till yesterday, haven't installed nor updated any software	10:51
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DantonicN900	the only thing I did different is I tried playing media through bt... ever since then voice no longer transmits	10:52
th3hate	is there any way to restore media player if i deleted it by mistake??	11:00
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valdyn	th3hate: how did you delete it?	11:01
th3hate	i installed MAFW equalizer plug in	11:02
th3hate	then wrote apt-get remove mafw-gst-renderer to remove it	11:02
th3hate	now media player is completely gone	11:02
Stskeeps	heh	11:02
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Stskeeps	can prolly apt-get it back in. apt-cache search	11:03
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valdyn	th3hate: apt-get told you that it would remove it, and you just hit Y or enter to confirm?	11:03
th3hate	it said it would only remove the MAFW equ	11:04
th3hate	but it removed the whole media player	11:04
valdyn	th3hate: you didnt read	11:04
th3hate	o rly :D	11:05
th3hate	anyway to restore it?	11:05
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valdyn	th3hate: apt-get install mediaplayer	11:05
th3hate	ok i'll try now	11:06
nextime	mumble	11:06
nextime	simple upstart script: that launch exec /etc/init.d/rc.local start	11:07
nextime	rc.local contain just "case "$1" in" switch	11:07
nextime	where in case of start do a . /etc/rc.local	11:08
nextime	/etc/rc.local contain 3 iptables rules	11:08
nextime	after the bootup of the phone	11:08
nextime	if i do an iptables -L -vn	11:08
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nextime	i see those three rules repeated three times	11:08
nextime	( so, 9 rules )	11:08
nextime	any idea on why it seem that rc.local is called 3 times?	11:09
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nextime	oh, it is the respawn call on the upstart script probably	11:09
* nextime answer to myself		11:09
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pigeon	should bluetooth mouse just work with the n900? or do i need to setup something manually?	11:10
marcus	Any way to download an image from my n900 to my desktop without using scp?	11:10
marcus	By using ssh only.	11:10
nextime	marcus: can't you use netcat?	11:11
pigeon	i suppose you could just ssh host cat file > something	11:11
marcus	nextime: Never heard of that. Guess it requies netcat on n900 as well?	11:11
nextime	marcus : yes	11:11
nextime	it is a sort of "raw tcp telnet like" thing	11:12
nextime	pigeon : no, if you do ssh host cat file	11:12
nextime	you can the file on the host	11:12
marcus	Yeah, I am doing that right now.	11:13
nextime	a oh	11:13
nextime	yes, it will work, you right	11:13
marcus	But that's with "vi"	11:13
nextime	:D	11:13
marcus	I'd rather use something like gedit etc.	11:13
nextime	ok, my rc.local now is working the right way	11:13
nextime	now i have the latest problem and my maemo is configured for my needs :)	11:14
pigeon	speaking of netcat, i don't see netcat in the maemo repo, and it's not enabled in busybox.	11:14
marcus	I just did a transitions mod, and damn it is looking good. Thanks to dscobsct	11:14
nextime	maybe someone have an idea on that issue: openvpn. I have a vpn link from my n900 to a remote server	11:14
nextime	if i start the vpn connected to my home wireless	11:15
nextime	all is working like a charm	11:15
nextime	if i start the vpn connected using hsdpa	11:15
nextime	tcp connection between the two endpoint of the vpn are working	11:15
nextime	same for udp connections	11:15
nextime	if i ping from the n900 to the server all is working	11:15
nextime	but, if i ping from the server to my n900, icmp packets arrive to the n900 tun device, but it doesn't answer at all	11:16
nextime	routing is ok	11:16
nextime	and mtu doesn't seem to be the problem as i tryed to reduce that and tcp/udp connection are working	11:16
nextime	any idea on what can be the issue?	11:17
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valdyn	nextime: the n900 does not reply to pings by default	11:25
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nextime	valdyn : this is a good point, but if so, why if i start the vpn connected over wifi i can ping it?	11:26
grishnav	nextime: your provider probably blocks ICMP (or really, any incoming packets) from you. tmobile by chance?	11:26
grishnav	or are you talking about pinging over the VPN?	11:26
nextime	grishnav : no, as the icmp are INSIDE the openvpn tunnel	11:26
grishnav	ah, ok	11:26
grishnav	layer 2 or layer 3 mode?	11:27
nextime	grishnav : it is a symble openvpn link with static keys over udp	11:27
grishnav	ok but	11:27
grishnav	layer 2 or layer 3 mode? :P	11:27
grishnav	tun or tap?	11:27
nextime	grishnav : tun	11:27
valdyn	nextime: doesnt make sense, maybe you pinged the wrong ip, maybe something you run enables echo replies. It's just off by default	11:27
grishnav	ok so, layer 3	11:28
grishnav	is the n900 getting an IP?	11:28
nextime	valdyn : no, the ip is the right one	11:28
grishnav	and if so, from where?	11:28
nextime	grishnav : it is fixed on the openvpn config	11:28
grishnav	and is it p2p or client/server mode?	11:28
nextime	i have 192.168.228.3 server side and .4 n900 side	11:28
nextime	p2p	11:28
grishnav	hmm	11:28
grishnav	so it works over wifi, but not hspa?	11:29
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valdyn	that doesnt make sense either	11:29
nextime	es	11:29
nextime	yes	11:29
valdyn	coincidence	11:29
valdyn	its something else	11:29
valdyn	vpn is vpn, no matter the underlying protocol	11:29
grishnav	openvpn running in tcp or udp mode?	11:29
nextime	udp	11:29
grishnav	ok	11:29
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grishnav	could be your provider isn't tracking the connection correctly	11:29
grishnav	can you get other traffic through?	11:30
grishnav	like can you ssh to your n90 when on hspa?	11:30
nextime	grishnav : yep, tcp and udp are working	11:30
grishnav	hrm	11:30
grishnav	weird	11:30
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nextime	also icmp from n900 to server	11:30
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grishnav	are there any firewall rules on the server?	11:30
nextime	and also if i ping from the server to n900 with a tcpdump -nvvvi tun0 on the n900 side	11:30
valdyn	nextime: did you already look if icmp echo replies are en- or disabled?	11:30
nextime	i see the icmp packets coming	11:30
nextime	valdyn : are enabled	11:31
grishnav	ok	11:31
grishnav	weird	11:31
grishnav	are you running iptables ora nything on the n900?	11:31
valdyn	maybe traffic is not really going thru that vpn tunnel	11:31
grishnav	yeah	11:32
grishnav	where is the openvpn "server"? is it on the internet, or on your home lan?	11:32
grishnav	and what is the addressing of your home lan?	11:32
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valdyn	nextime: look at route -n output	11:33
nextime	grishnav : it is a dedicated server on internet	11:33
nextime	valdyn : already double checked	11:33
grishnav	ok, that blows that theory. :p	11:33
valdyn	nextime: ok, thats not useful, you need to paste these things somewhere for us to look at	11:33
grishnav	who is your hspa provider?	11:34
nextime	grishnav : vodafone	11:35
nextime	but i think it is irrilevant as the tunnel is established	11:35
grishnav	yeah, it should be	11:35
grishnav	unless they are handing you a private ip that happens to be the same subnet you decided to use for your vpn	11:35
grishnav	but that's unlikely	11:36
valdyn	routing on the mobile phone subnet is "weird"	11:36
nextime	no, the for two reason: first other connection (tcp/udp) are working on the same pair of ip	11:36
nextime	and anyway, gprs0 is on the 10/8 subnet	11:36
grishnav	they hand you a private IP?	11:36
grishnav	that sucks.	11:36
nextime	grishnav : yep, vodafone use nat	11:36
grishnav	that sucks hard, lol	11:37
grishnav	but it shouldn't matter	11:37
nextime	grishnav : but i have public ip from vpn and 7.2 megs of connection for just 3 euro/week	11:37
nextime	so, it's acceptable to be inside a nat	11:37
nextime	:D	11:37
valdyn	nextime: where is your route -n output?	11:37
nextime	Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface	11:38
nextime	192.168.228.3 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 tun0	11:38
nextime	94.23.194.106 10.150.46.21 255.255.255.255 UGH 0 0 0 gprs0	11:38
nextime	10.150.46.21 0.0.0.0 255.255.255.255 UH 0 0 0 gprs0	11:38
nextime	0.0.0.0 192.168.228.3 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 tun0	11:38
valdyn	ack, not here...	11:38
nextime	where 94.23.194.106 is the server	11:38
nextime	( sorry for the paste, it was four lines.. )	11:38
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valdyn	nextime: if 94.* is your server, then traffic to that host is route through gprs0, not through the tun0	11:40
nextime	valdyn : yesm as you can see it is routed to gprs0	11:40
Dantonic	Any idea why my N900s bluetooth would no longer transmit calls to a paired device, after having tried streaming Media over Bluetooth?	11:41
Dantonic	it just won't transmit the audio from phone calls	11:41
nextime	OK	11:45
nextime	weird, but i found the problem	11:46
nextime	reducing the tun mtu to 1164	11:46
nextime	ping is working.	11:46
nextime	so, it was a fragmentation issue	11:46
grishnav	that is weird	11:47
grishnav	enable the openvpn mtu-test option and see what it detects	11:47
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nextime	yep, now i will investigate deeply, the important thing is that i found the direction	11:48
nextime	:)	11:48
nextime	i have one more issue to solve with the sip client now	11:49
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nextime	it send register request with the gprs0 address even over vpn	11:49
nextime	so, it doesn't work	11:49
grishnav	what are you using for the other endpoint? asterisk?	11:52
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nextime	yep	11:53
grishnav	hmm	11:53
grishnav	well I'm not sure why the sip client int he n900 is putting the wrong address in the URI	11:53
grishnav	but you can probably use nat=yes in the asterisk peer config for the phone to work around it	11:54
nextime	grishnav : it is a know bug on sophia-sup	11:54
nextime	sip	11:54
nextime	yes, i'm trying with the asterisk nat helper	11:54
grishnav	http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+sip+nat	11:54
nextime	yep, i know very well *, thanks :)	11:56
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nextime	an iptables masquerade on the tun interface of the n900 + a nat=yes in asterisk server side do the job.	11:57
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grishnav	not sure why you would need the masq but glad you got it workin'. :)	12:03
nextime	grishnav : cause nat helper on the asterisk side get the source ip and use that for rtp instead on the one that the client send inside the registration request	12:04
nextime	but also the source ip is the gprs0 one if i don't put a masquerade rule on the tun0	12:04
nextime	so, i need to also masquerade the source ip	12:05
nextime	anyway, just tryed a call to a mobile phone of my brother with:	12:06
nextime	n900 connected with hsdpa, the sip client register to the asterisk server @ my home	12:06
nextime	the n900 is over vpn with a remote server	12:06
nextime	my home is connected in vpn with the same server	12:06
nextime	the call is ok, not too latence, acceptable quality	12:06
nextime	:)	12:06
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nextime	now i just need two asterisk config to redirect also my office number and internal numbers	12:07
nextime	and all it's in the way i need	12:07
nextime	:D	12:07
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grishnav	nice	12:13
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corecode	FAT: Filesystem error (dev mmcblk0p1) fat_get_cluster: invalid cluster chain (i_pos 0)	12:25
corecode	anybody had that?	12:25
corecode	hm	12:28
corecode	had to fsck from host	12:28
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Duckboot	corecode: OC'ed?	12:33
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corecode	the error was misleading	12:37
corecode	it complained about mmcblk0p1, but it ment mmcblk1p1	12:38
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* AntiPudd1ng dies laughing http://pics.nase-bohren.de/dixie.jpg		12:52
Jaffa	Morning, al	12:52
Jaffa	Morning, all	12:52
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alterego	Aloha	13:07
alterego	What a night ...	13:08
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th3hate	I removed media player by mistake and restored it using apt-get install mediaplayer.. but the wiget is still missing (media player widget)	13:14
th3hate	how to restore it?	13:14
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Sargun_Screen	haha	13:15
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marcus	Heya	13:29
marcus	Is the Nokia N-Series theme /usr/share/themes/default?	13:29
marcus	Like, Digital Nature theme is /usr/share/themes/beta	13:30
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alterego	marcus yes, I believe so.	13:35
eitama	Hello, anyone knows How do I specify libqtm-contacts in the .pro file in qt-creator?	13:36
marcus	altergo: For some reason, it has not got a images/ foldes inside.	13:36
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gour	anyone using emacs' org-mode on n900?	13:40
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MohammadAG51	<marcus> Is the Nokia N-Series theme /usr/share/themes/default?	13:51
MohammadAG51	alpha	13:51
marcus	Aha, thanks!	13:52
marcus	Perfect. Replacing the launcher icon with an Arch icon :3	13:52
alterego	Woo my package is in extras :D	13:53
MohammadAG51	yw :)	13:54
marcus	MohammedAG51: Will "cp * /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/" copy all from the current dir?	13:54
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marcus	MohammadAG51: Will "cp * /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/" copy all from the current dir?	13:55
marcus	A instead of E, sorry.	13:55
valdyn	marcus: no it wont	13:56
marcus	valdyn: How come? Does it require "cp *.png /PATH/UND/SO/WEITER"	13:57
valdyn	marcus: cp -R ./ /usr/share/themes/alpha/images/	13:57
marcus	That would be a folder, wouldn't it?	13:57
MohammadAG51	yes, to /usr/......../images/	13:57
marcus	I only want the files.	13:57
marcus	So it would work with my example, aye?	13:57
MohammadAG51	if there are folders add -r before *	13:58
valdyn	marcus: probably for that case, but that just is not "all"	13:58
marcus	valdyn: You are right :-) I meant all files, thanks for pointing that out!	13:58
valdyn	marcus: and its -r , not -R oops	13:58
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marcus	I'm just a little scared using all these commands, as I'm on root in SSH.	13:59
valdyn	globbing is easy to get wrong	14:00
MohammadAG51	why wouldn't it...	14:00
marcus	Yes, indeed.	14:00
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MohammadAG51	Yes	14:03
* lcuk wonders how this opened		14:06
jacekowski	is X-Fade around?	14:07
MohammadAG51	it's a saturday	14:08
* MohammadAG51 kicks lcuk		14:08
* lcuk slaps MohammadAG51 with a frals		14:08
jacekowski	does anybody else know how to configure wanna-build + buildd + sbmdmock + scratchbox +whatever else is requred to work together?	14:09
* MohammadAG51 takes a shower		14:09
MohammadAG51	damn fishy smell	14:09
lcuk	MohammadAG51, we dont normally like to complain :P	14:09
MohammadAG51	err, huh?	14:10
lcuk	but you do have stink lines today	14:10
MohammadAG51	lcuk, did I hurt his feeling?	14:10
MohammadAG51	+s	14:10
lcuk	whos	14:10
MohammadAG51	trouty	14:10
jacekowski	don't worry about that	14:10
MohammadAG51	frals :P	14:10
lcuk	nahh	14:11
jacekowski	you have to learn to don't care	14:11
jacekowski	i don't care	14:11
lcuk	jacekowski, are you trying to make an autobuilder	14:11
jacekowski	lcuk: yes	14:11
lcuk	i tihnk all the details were posted - jebba managed to get it all working afaik	14:12
jacekowski	and so wanna-build is giving me a lot of grief	14:12
jacekowski	so far*	14:12
MohammadAG51	isn't the autobuilder scratchbox + some scripts	14:12
jacekowski	MohammadAG51: yep	14:12
jacekowski	that "some scripts" is the part that is causing problems	14:12
jacekowski	Database for unstable doesn't exist	14:12
jacekowski	Jun 17 19:20:01 buildd[6657]: wanna-build --list=needs-build --dist=unstable failed; status 2/0	14:12
jacekowski	Jun 17 19:20:01 buildd[6657]: Nothing to do -- sleeping 300 seconds	14:12
jacekowski	but if i do su buildd	14:13
jacekowski	and then use same sommand	14:13
jacekowski	i have different error	14:13
jacekowski	well, not an error, just information that there is nothing to do	14:13
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crashanddie	heh... My ISP is really run by nerds... Look at the time on the modem: http://www.free.fr/adsl/	14:16
crashanddie	"1337", "leet"	14:17
ZogG	MohammadAG51 \щ/	14:17
ZogG	\о/	14:17
alterego	I think I'm going to redo the UI for my app in C++, Python/PySide loading times are awful.	14:18
crashanddie	why C++?	14:18
alterego	Qt	14:18
crashanddie	just do specific parts in C and call it from Python	14:18
jacekowski	because python sucks	14:18
jacekowski	i vote for tpm in n900 that disallows executing of any python software	14:19
jacekowski	and perl	14:19
crashanddie	python doesn't suck	14:19
jacekowski	well, everything that starts with p	14:19
crashanddie	it's a fun language that made programming fun again for anyone who's developed for more than a couple of years	14:19
alterego	It's a config editor, written in Qt, the whole thing can be done in C++ very easy, with the plus side of it being a lot quicker.	14:19
jacekowski	perl, python, php	14:19
crashanddie	PyQt is horrible, though, a bastard language that shouldn't have seen the light of day	14:20
alterego	Ruby is far superior	14:20
crashanddie	disclaimer: I've never really used it.	14:20
crashanddie	ruby is bollocks on a string	14:20
jacekowski	alterego: r looks almost like a p	14:20
alterego	it's the bollocks indeed :P	14:20
crashanddie	jacekowski: you too are bollocks on a string :P	14:20
jacekowski	i don't believe in intepreted stuff	14:20
jacekowski	it has to be real code	14:20
jacekowski	like C or C++ or asm	14:20
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alterego	Ruby is far better than python, it's just not as mature or widespread.	14:21
lcuk	crashanddie, pyqt isnt a language	14:21
lcuk	python is decent and the qt aspect adds niceness	14:21
crashanddie	that's what I said	14:21
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crashanddie	I said a bastard language :P	14:21
crashanddie	so not really a language	14:21
crashanddie	a halfing	14:21
crashanddie	halfling	14:21
lcuk	fair	14:21
lcuk	pygtk before it?	14:21
* crashanddie shivers		14:22
alterego	Does PyQt segfault as much as PySide?	14:22
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crashanddie	lcuk: the fact that python segfaults because of Qt is enough of a warning for me	14:22
ZogG	i say Chinese is a language =)	14:22
alterego	crashanddie: it is painful.	14:23
lcuk	alterego, pickup a pair of swords and try swinging them round your head	14:23
alterego	Heh	14:23
lcuk	im certain you will lose some kind of limb or bodypart	14:23
lcuk	pyqt is similar - you have to be a trained ninja :p	14:24
alterego	It's very poor extension development when it actually causes predictable segfaults because of it's naff object handling.	14:24
alterego	It's awful, I'm thinking of ressurecting Ruby/Maemo just to use Qt in a decent interpreted language :P	14:25
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lcuk	alterego, why not write native qt?	14:25
alterego	lcuk: on device hacking mainly.	14:25
lcuk	sure	14:26
alterego	Sometimes I just want to write something on the move.	14:26
lcuk	i know that feeling :)	14:26
alterego	For anything major I'll use Nokia Qt SDK becuase then you've got the designer.	14:26
alterego	If we had a Qt designer for N900 I'd be very happy.	14:27
alterego	Just need those .ui files ^.^	14:27
lcuk	on device designing is ... a good thing :)	14:27
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alterego	Indeed, makes for the best user interfaces :)	14:28
alterego	A because you're trying to be as succinct as you can and b) because you've got the real environment.	14:28
lcuk	alterego, problem with designers though is that you dont have the entire surface available	14:29
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alterego	I pretty much coded the whole of the Media Im Status Updater on the device in Vi one afternoon. :)	14:29
lcuk	at least on a larger slate you can show entire 1:1 tablet screen + all tools around	14:29
alterego	Yeah	14:29
alterego	Maybe we could use tv out :)	14:30
lcuk	its hardly on the go then is it :p	14:30
lcuk	but, yeah that works nicely	14:30
lcuk	tv out can show different info the normal tablet ui	14:31
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alterego	I'd quite like to write some apps that can drive the tvout separately actually.	14:34
lcuk	alterego, i already have one	14:35
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alterego	You've managed it, how would I go about it.	14:35
alterego	?	14:35
lcuk	apt-get install libliqbase1-dev ;) write in c	14:35
lcuk	apt-get build-essential (on device)	14:35
lcuk	make ..	14:35
alterego	ghey ... :P	14:35
* frals trouts MohammadAG51 with lcuk		14:36
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lcuk	nice, gmorning frals	14:36
alterego	Is it possible to drive the TV out using a GLES context?	14:36
frals	afternoon o/	14:36
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frals	fuckin hell im actually glad im in finland today	14:36
lcuk	alterego, perhaps you would have to look	14:36
lcuk	frals, rly	14:36
lcuk	why	14:36
frals	whole stockholm is a complete mess due to royal wedding	14:37
alterego	Heh	14:37
lcuk	why are they having your wedding when you arent in the country :p	14:37
frals	;D	14:37
lcuk	or is that the point :p	14:37
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alterego	Cool, the latest Linux Format has quite a few interesting articles.	14:41
alterego	lcuk: is it hard to drive the tvout seperately? Will the normal TV-OUT service get in the way at all?	14:42
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lcuk	alterego, i found out by accident	14:43
alterego	Sure, but you've done it :P	14:44
lcuk	on the device, the normal apps that drive the YUV overlay close themselves when you pan to dashboard and back to "normal" rgb	14:44
alterego	Right	14:44
lcuk	but i found out when i run liq* apps, and pan back	14:44
lcuk	the yuv continues running	14:44
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lcuk	and the on device screen shows regular desktop	14:44
alterego	Hahah	14:44
alterego	Okay	14:44
alterego	I wonder why that is	14:45
lcuk	because i didnt stop the overlay	14:45
alterego	Oh, right	14:46
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frals	giggle, fmms downloads: 366667!	14:47
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lcuk	lol frals	14:48
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frals	lcuk: :D	14:48
w00t_	frals: did you see my note on twitter?	14:49
frals	uh, maybe? ;D	14:49
SpeedEvil	I need to put together my 'download package log and app stats, and work out how many users it has' script	14:49
w00t_	facebook says: 8,371 facebrick users as of yesterday	14:49
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frals	w00t_: cool :> grats!	14:50
SpeedEvil	One person at least is using my compile of wpa_supplicant	14:50
* frals wishes he had someway of knowing # of users		14:50
screwgoth	Damn !! how can you build the Maemo pre-alpha2 root filessystem without the alpha repos ?	14:50
frals	download stats seems to update rather sporadically	14:50
SpeedEvil	frals: I think saying >25k is probably sane	14:51
SpeedEvil	google command line thingy is nice.	14:52
lcuk	screwgoth, jacekowski is doing some autobuilder stuffs	14:52
lcuk	slightly different level i bet, but there may be some crossover in info	14:52
screwgoth	Oh, so the repos have been recently moved ?	14:53
alterego	I have one download :P	14:53
alterego	And that was me ....	14:53
* SpeedEvil downloads alterego.		14:53
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lcuk	crikey!	14:55
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lcuk	bioinformatics companies offering me licenses for things	14:56
th3hate	has tweakr stopped working for anyone? it stopped snapping icons to grid here :S	14:56
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Shapeshifter	Can anyone living in the UK recommend a carrier that offers a prepaid-based mobile internet plan? Something like, buy a sim, load it with 10 bucks, buy a one-month flat for 9.99?	15:00
alterego	Oo, 3 downloads :J	15:01
lcuk	Shapeshifter, on o2	15:01
lcuk	i have PAYG	15:01
lcuk	and if you top up £15	15:01
alterego	Shapeshifter: Vodafone do it too I think.	15:01
lcuk	you can get a bolton for unlimited texts/internet	15:01
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: Is 1G/mo enough?	15:01
Shapeshifter	mhh, nice. yeah I doubt I need more then 300mb	15:01
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: t-mobile offer a 20 quid for 6 months booster	15:02
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SpeedEvil	So you get a free SIM, top up with 20 quid, apply the booster, and you're good for 6 months	15:02
Shapeshifter	mh I just need it for a week, really. Maybe I'll not get one at all but if it's cheap, I might.	15:02
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SpeedEvil	http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/services/payg/boosters/	15:02
SpeedEvil	oh	15:02
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: that is quite cheap	15:02
Shapeshifter	thanks	15:02
SpeedEvil	they also do it for - IIRC - a fiver a week	15:02
Shapeshifter	2.50 for 5 days is good	15:03
SpeedEvil	yeah	15:03
Shapeshifter	thanks guys.	15:03
SpeedEvil	np	15:04
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alterego	fff, found all the episodes for Fringe season 2 except episode 16.	15:16
alterego	w t f :)	15:16
alterego	I need a coffee.	15:16
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vldcnst	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=721554&postcount=25	15:24
vldcnst	oh my.	15:24
rodald	hi everyone i am trying to flash my device but nothing happens i am using the Maemo Flasher 3.5 but nothing seems to happen should it be somthing indicating that its flashing or something because all i got its the permision request from windows to run	15:25
ShadowJK	Uh, sounds like you just clicked it?	15:26
rodald	what do you mean with clicked?	15:26
ShadowJK	Well you're not supposed to click on it, it's not a graphical program	15:27
alterego	Heh	15:27
ShadowJK	It's only usable from shell/commandline/etc	15:27
rodald	oh no i run the comand line on the flasher	15:27
alterego	No, you run the flasher on the command lkine :P	15:27
ShadowJK	Ok, and yes, it's supposed to say stuff there :/	15:27
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pupnik	arbeiten!	15:37
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lcukn900	pupnik gmorning \o #liqbase has a very much alive kotczarny in it	15:41
pupnik	cool	15:42
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pupnik	is there a weather radar app (storms, rain) for maemo?	16:01
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th3hate_	weatherbug in ovi store	16:08
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ham5	?	16:09
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marcus	Heya guys, is it correct that you can't play opengles games on pr1.2? When installing ioquake3, it says: "The following packages have unmet dependencies: liblges1-sgx-img:"	16:20
marcus	I read somewhere on the forums, that it did not work on pr1.2 yet.	16:20
Stskeeps	there is a gles1 problem afaik	16:23
alterego	Is it a serious issue? I was going to do some gles stuff tonight :P	16:23
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marcus	alterego: I do not know what the real problem is, but for some reason I have seen that people can't install/make Quake3 work.	16:24
alterego	hrm, okay I'll take a look.	16:25
GAN900	Probably never be fixed, either.	16:26
BCMM	what is the control scheme for quake3, by the way?	16:26
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alterego	I still reckon we'll get a PR1.3 at the least.	16:27
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marcus	BCMM: I'm pretty sure the accelerometer is in use for movement. The light sensor is for shooting.	16:27
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Stskeeps	GAN900: you remind me way too much of marvin the paranoid android	16:27
BCMM	ok, that's weird enough for me to want to install it	16:27
GAN900	Stskeeps, it's not paranoid if it's supported by history.	16:28
alterego	GAN900: They have to support N900 longer as it's a proper handset I reckon.	16:29
GAN900	alterego, we'll see.	16:29
GAN900	So far nothing they've done has shown much of a commitment to that.	16:30
alterego	Yeah, I guess we will. :)	16:30
kW_	Hello! Does anybody has successfully established synchronization of contacts and calendar appointments between N900 and any linux application?	16:31
alterego	The N900 will probably be my primary for at least another year and a half.	16:31
GAN900	Nokia's long since moved on as a company, however.	16:31
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alterego	If they fail to release more updates for it even just bug fixes, they're going to effectively force a lot of normal users to use our MeeGo community supported dist, which is a bad idea. I really think they'll have to put at least Qt 4.7 on it, which Ki thought I heard slated for PR1.3	16:33
marcus	MeeGo will be more closed source, right?	16:33
Stskeeps	less	16:33
marcus	Less closed source?	16:34
alterego	As the developer community will be moving to MeeGo as soon as we can. We're going to leave a lot of normal users in the llurch	16:34
kW_	Well, how usable is MeeGo currently?	16:34
*** DocScrutinizer is now known as MarvinTheParanoi		16:34
GAN900	kW_, define MeeGo	16:34
GAN900	For handsets, not	16:34
GAN900	The UX is still closed for some stupid reason	16:34
GAN900	alterego, I don't think they particularly care, personally.	16:35
kW_	GAN900: MeeGo as in http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/releases/1.0/core/images/meego-n900-open-armv7l/	16:35
MarvinTheParanoi	Stskeeps: that can't be GAN900 :-P	16:35
GAN900	What's a Paranoi?	16:35
Jaffa	marcus: AIUI, the issue with OpenGLES is that some third party apps specified exact version dependency, which has now moved on	16:35
alterego	GAN900: well, I hope enough of them care enough to influence those that do not.	16:35
valdyn	kW_: theres no graphical UI in that	16:35
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kW_	valdyn: oh, so it is not usable from a user's point-of-view?	16:35
marcus	Jaffa: Aha, crap, but good to know that it is only some apps that are affected.	16:36
GAN900	alterego, I think the core issue is that upper management doesn't care and there's a lot of belt tightening going on.	16:36
valdyn	kW_: correct	16:36
GAN900	and what's the best place to start tightening? ;)	16:36
alterego	GAN900: sure I agree, the issue is obviously middle management.	16:36
MarvinTheParanoi	GAN900: MarvinTheParanoidAndroid	16:36
alterego	N97 support :P	16:37
GAN900	MarvinTheParanoi, yes, yes. I get it.	16:37
alterego	And all other symbian phone lines :)	16:37
GAN900	alterego, higher up than that, I think.	16:37
MarvinTheParanoi	GAN900: blame freenode for not supporting 138chars in nick	16:37
GAN900	Anssi and friends.	16:37
alterego	Hah	16:37
GAN900	MarvinTheParanoi, yes, I know. :P	16:37
*** MarvinTheParanoi is now known as DocScrutinizer		16:38
GAN900	Anssi the Dinosaur	16:38
alterego	Heh.	16:38
alterego	Where's this bloody bus, I want to be home already.	16:39
alterego	They should stick GPS' in buses we can track.	16:39
pupnik	that would be customer service	16:40
Corsac	Ansi or Anssi ?	16:40
alterego	Heh	16:40
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pupnik	can't have that now	16:40
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alterego	Why don't we have something like the desktop Ovi maps for the N900 wiith the mashup capabilities :(	16:42
GAN900	Corsac, Anssi Vanjoki	16:43
Corsac	oh	16:44
marcus	What is ~/cities for?	16:44
Corsac	not the agency	16:44
marcus	The GPS?	16:44
alterego	marcus: it contains all of the map data	16:45
DocScrutinizer	I thought even ANSII	16:46
marcus	alterego: And if I removed it, I guess it would just DL it again when I launch the Ovi maps thingy?	16:46
alterego	marcus: yes, though I just download all the maps for europe and stick it in there.	16:46
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alterego	Saves you having to download maps when/if you cant.	16:47
marcus	And you get that from the Ovi site, aye+	16:47
alterego	No, I had to manually do it, you can get the files by googling for it for S60	16:47
marcus	Aha, okay.	16:48
alterego	Same data files.	16:48
alterego	I'll see if I can get the link	16:48
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RST38h	http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/18/AR2010061805630.html?nav=igoogle	16:51
RST38h	WashPost delivers lulz again.	16:51
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: lbt: I'm not surprised about few maemonians contributing to meego. Given the fact that whatever you ask for to discuss, no matter if it's ofono or PA, the answer is "let's build first version - then you can come up and discuss and convince us there's something better". We all know this isn't going to fly. Add to that the "heartly welcome" meego gave the maemo community as in replies to lbt's (and your) post about join... Where is	16:54
DocScrutinizer	meego heading at?	16:54
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RST38h	Doc: besides, we already heard this when maemo5 was baking	16:55
RST38h	Doc: it is not like people have not voiced their concern about brain-damaged Maemo5 dialogs, for example	16:55
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	16:55
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Arkenoi	I have a very strange question: is it possible to tie a script to sip registration? My cellular provider allows me to accept incoming calls via sip, but i have to set redirection status via http.	16:56
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: go read about release process and schedules for why big changes arent made at this point	16:56
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DocScrutinizer	Arkenoi: should be possible (look for dbus scripting pkg/app), but I honestly doubt it will work, as it's hard to unset this redirection in case you lose SIP due to connectivity loss	17:00
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RST38h	Stskeeps: it is not like any explanation of nokia release process will make nokia look better in the eyes of n900 users	17:00
Arkenoi	DocScrutinizer, it's ok as redirection is reset authomatically on unregister	17:00
DocScrutinizer	ok then	17:00
RST38h	Stskeeps: If the release process leads to the majority of users being pissed off, then change the release process.	17:01
Stskeeps	RST38h: i don't care about nokia process, i was speaking meego	17:01
DocScrutinizer	Arkenoi: there's a pkg called "dbus scripting *" or similar, it can start shellscripts on arbitrary d-bus events	17:01
alterego	What's wrong with m5 dialogs? Or is it specific app dialogs that are your concern?	17:02
RST38h	Stskeeps: Meego is not very interesting to the wide circle of users/developers until there is a device	17:02
RST38h	alterego: lots of space wasted	17:02
RST38h	alterego: not quite compatible with the gtk+ dialogs.	17:02
Stskeeps	RST38h: main topic was PA or ofono, in meego context	17:02
alterego	RST38h: well, device, or usable functioning system for a currennt device .. Like the N900 :)	17:03
RST38h	alterego: obviously do not work in portrait mode (see "lots of spae wasted")	17:03
alterego	:/ yeah.	17:03
Stskeeps	people have to realize a product has to be made, and a quality one	17:03
DocScrutinizer	alterego: (what's wrong) just look at time/date selector	17:03
RST38h	Stskeeps: Ok. Would you call Maemo5 a "quality product"?	17:03
RST38h	Software, I mean?	17:03
alterego	Well, as a devic the N900 is pretty awesome, even without HDMI :)	17:03
DocScrutinizer	alterego: about as wrong as it gets	17:03
Stskeeps	RST38h: yes, at least its more stable than what open community has been able to deliver	17:04
RST38h	As a device, it has no analogs	17:04
Stskeeps	not one that breaks randomly and is changing apis like britney spears changes underwear	17:04
RST38h	Stskeeps: The "open community" delivering things is a joke	17:04
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alterego	The group were being very, erm, brave when they tried clutterizing everything. That's why everything is so fudged, because it was effectively a complete rejig.	17:05
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, the disconnect between the saying and doing kills me	17:05
alterego	I'm suprised they did as much as they did ...	17:05
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: nod	17:05
RST38h	Stskeeps: But I absolutely insist that "breaks randomly" describes Maemo5 well	17:05
GAN900	the response to attempts at participation from Maemo people isn't even vaguely encouraging.	17:05
alterego	They should however, at least bought ALL apps to the ssame level, PDF reader is a bloody joke.	17:05
RST38h	alterego: and it is not even clear why they did that thing with clutter	17:05
BCMM	one PDF at a time is weird	17:06
BCMM	evince is nice	17:06
BCMM	there are actually things i cannot effectively do in that pdf reader	17:06
BCMM	like read my university assignment from one PDF while looking at the formula sheet, which is a separate file	17:07
Stskeeps	RST38h: i don't really have the energy to discuss with you, nothing constructive ever comes out of those discussions, only bile, no initative.	17:08
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: at least the default one respects encryption and refuses to display e.g. the N900 schematics ;-P While evince displays nicely	17:08
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: oh, PDF "encryption" is such a joke...	17:08
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alterego	RST38h: eye candy :P it was probably their road before meego took form. m5 was already pretty much done this time last year for instance.	17:09
BCMM	i use Okular on the desktop, which has a nice checkbox in the configuration "Obey DRM limitations"	17:10
alterego	Heh	17:10
kW_	Does anybody know how to make the file-chooser of the user interface access the internal filesystem (e.g. "/home/user")?	17:10
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BCMM	actually, i think there is actual encryption for PDFs, and there is also a series of "don't do this" flags, which people typically pretend is also a type of encryption	17:11
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DocScrutinizer	BCMM: (multiple open pdf's) another attempt to implement properties on app level that the devels thought were wrong in OS. Here it's the winmobile concept of "one app wit one project at any time"	17:11
BCMM	the latter being the one people actually use	17:11
kW_	BCMM: cool, I never realized this checkbox :-)	17:11
BCMM	PDF DRM is so, so, stupid	17:11
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: other prominent examples are tracker implementing a shadow filesystem, as the original isn't good enough	17:12
BCMM	and so many people seem to believe it is technically possible to "encrypt" something in such a way that you can decrypt and view it, but not decrypt and print it	17:12
marcus	Hmm, I remember having trouble to exit Open Arena and Quake 3, how is it that I do that?	17:12
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i don't know what "tracker" and "shadow filesystem" mean	17:12
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: nevermind, was random rant addressed to Nokia-unknown and rather unrelated to your point	17:13
marcus	Dunno if this is a stupid question, but isn't it possible for Nokia to port N-Gage to n900?	17:14
BCMM	aww, was kind of interested	17:14
marcus	http://www.n-gage.com/	17:14
ShadowJK	I thought n-gage was dead..	17:14
marcus	Dunno about that.	17:14
marcus	Still games out there, and n97 got n-gage	17:14
BCMM	n-gage is now an application?	17:15
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DocScrutinizer	BCMM: ok: Nokia's latest recommendations are suggestion every app registers every file created at tracker (aka indexer), so we basically get two independent filesystems - the real fs tree and the tracker database	17:15
marcus	To download the N-Gage application, select your device below. You will be directed to a download page, where you will find instructions on how to install the N-Gage application onto your device. Support for additional N-Gage compatible devices is coming soon.	17:15
marcus	BCMM: Seems like it.	17:15
GAN900	BCMM, dev kit and brand more like	17:15
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DocScrutinizer	BCMM: the "hiding the OS" (what a strange take on that) is another example. If I'm unhappy with the user being even just able to see files/dirs in / then there for sure are better ways to cope with that than to cripple the systemwide fileselector lib so you think you're on a windoze shitsysem with drive letters	17:19
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Khertan	Hi !	17:20
Stskeeps	lo Khertan	17:20
RST38h	moo Khertan	17:21
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: yeah, it's a bit strange	17:21
Khertan	I ve a question ... i'm trying to implement syntax checking by using pylint on KhtEditor ... but i didn't say any way to display information without eating too many space on source view ... any idea ?	17:21
Khertan	lo Stskeeps	17:21
Khertan	moo RST38h	17:21
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i kind of understand them doing things like renaming DCIM to Images	17:22
BCMM	but i guess that could've been done with symlinks	17:22
DocScrutinizer	yes, for sure. but even for this there's generic means like symlinks and dunnowhat	17:22
DocScrutinizer	exactly :-D	17:22
RST38h	they do it the symbian way	17:22
RST38h	laid off symbian people came to maemo devices and made 'em do it all the symbian way	17:23
RST38h	the file selection dialog, the directory names, the dialogs, the release schedule	17:23
DocScrutinizer	and that's extremely odd. They always try to mimic inferior OS and GUI instead of exploiting the genuine strengths of Linux	17:23
RST38h	Symbian is not inferior in any way	17:24
Khertan	Symbian is not inferior in any way <<< it is :)	17:24
RST38h	It has just been designed for a different usage scenario	17:24
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: actually, it is a slightly interesting problem - they're obviously trying to prevent windows people saving stuff where they can't read it over MSC	17:24
DocScrutinizer	well, to some extent it is	17:24
RST38h	Symbian/S60 has been designed for using it with a traditional portrait-oriented phone, with a physical keypad and no touchscreen	17:24
kW_	Does anybody know how to deal with "$MYDOCSDIR"?	17:24
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: and mounting and symlinks are familiar concepts to me, but actually slightly difficult concepts if you haven't met them before	17:24
RST38h	That is where it excels	17:24
Khertan	But they let windows people deleting the wrong file due to hiding extension :)	17:25
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: ack	17:25
RST38h	Attempts to shoehorn Symbian/S60 onto touchscreen devices have been somewhat awkward	17:25
RST38h	Although I have to admit that 5800 works well	17:25
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: yep, and who ever heard of ACL	17:25
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BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i'm not quite sure how they are relevant	17:26
DocScrutinizer	e.g. to "hide OS from user"	17:26
Mece	hello maemites	17:27
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BCMM	i certainly don't mind the file open dialog only showing the home dir	17:27
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: if you really feel you have to do that	17:27
BCMM	(in terms of hiding the OS)	17:27
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BCMM	since UI stuff shouldn't have permission to write outside there anyway	17:28
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: it doesn't (show ~)	17:28
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: and the perms are exactly the point. If user can't write / delete there anyway, why stop him from reading there then?	17:29
DocScrutinizer	EVEN HIS OWN HOME!!!	17:29
BCMM	not being able to use UI stuff in ~/ is really annoying	17:30
BCMM	the best solution would be to make Windows support a proper filesystem on mass-storage devices	17:30
BCMM	</troll>	17:30
DocScrutinizer	that's like my landlord explains to me in my flat here's all the megacritical infrastruct I shouldn't touch and I have to keep out of there and camp in a tent on the lawn	17:30
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kevloral	Hi all	17:31
Mece	рун пгныб ыршебб щл цфше вгттщ рщц ещ ыцшеср ершы щаабб	17:31
DocScrutinizer	aaayes	17:31
Mece	ok	17:32
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Mece	right	17:32
DocScrutinizer	Mece: döösbaddl	17:32
jacekowski	that wasn't even proper russian	17:32
Mece	I wonder if one who can understand cyrillic letters can read that as english..	17:32
jacekowski	well, i understand cyrylic	17:32
jacekowski	but russian keyboard layout is different to english	17:33
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i wonder whether it would be feasible to create a modified vfat driver that stores POSIX permissions and so on in a file	17:33
kW_	BCMM: well, this is my MYDOCSDIR problem...	17:33
Mece	jacekowski, ah yes.	17:33
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: i mean, feasible in terms of performance	17:33
jacekowski	and some letters are read differently	17:33
bunn4	is there a good scratchbox2 ubuntu tutorial?	17:34
kW_	DocScrutinizer: how do I make different directories visible in the filesystem browser widget?	17:34
Mece	jacekowski, I'm working on getting qlister to work with russian and other languages with different letters than mine.	17:34
bunn4	after installing sb2 doesnt seems to install arm-gcc compiler	17:34
jacekowski	b is read like v	17:34
DocScrutinizer	kW_: screwit	17:34
jacekowski	p is read like r	17:34
DocScrutinizer	kW_: make a symlink to a better dir name	17:34
jacekowski	and couple more	17:34
DocScrutinizer	in a better location	17:35
kW_	DocScrutinizer: oh, symlinks work there?	17:35
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: gah, i was about to ask if the file browser supports symlinks...	17:35
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: oh, somebody did say that	17:35
BCMM	vfat doesn't have symlinks	17:35
kW_	DocScrutinizer: well, I cannot create a symlink in a vfat directory, can I?	17:35
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, I bindmount / to ~/MyDocs/MyRoot	17:36
jacekowski	well, you can	17:36
DocScrutinizer	works for me	17:36
jacekowski	i mean there is patch for it	17:36
BCMM	now in finally know what bindmount does that symlinks don't...	17:36
jacekowski	but i think it never went upstream to vanilia	17:36
jacekowski	BCMM: symlinks can be detected and are annoying	17:37
DocScrutinizer	though I always thought even windows2000 had symlinks. otoh that's NTFS, not VFAT	17:37
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BCMM	jacekowski: implemented as .lnks?	17:37
DocScrutinizer	tbh I rarely ever touch VFAT	17:37
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: yeah, you can't do it on fat32	17:37
jacekowski	BCMM: yes	17:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: as far as i know ntfs only supports COW symlinks	17:37
BCMM	jacekowski: thing is, there is no way to do a cross-filesystem link that makes sense on both linux and windows	17:38
jacekowski	well, it's completly different fs design	17:38
jacekowski	it's like zfs on linux	17:38
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jacekowski	you can use it with fuse	17:38
BCMM	is there even a way to use ntfs symlinks from windows?	17:38
DocScrutinizer	well at least I heard you could teach VFAT to know about unix permissions	17:39
BCMM	doesn't it do a bunch of stuff windows doesn't actually use, like case sensitivity?	17:39
Stskeeps	UMSDOS?	17:39
jacekowski	BCMM: well, it's used a lot on server windows	17:39
jacekowski	BCMM: for doing stuff like deduplication	17:39
BCMM	christ, there are still windows servers...	17:40
jacekowski	there are things that linux can't do	17:40
kW_	well, "/ /home/user/MyDocs/root none bind" in /etc/fstab worked	17:40
jacekowski	AD for example	17:40
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jacekowski	kW_: well fstab will be gone as soon as you reboot	17:41
BCMM	jacekowski: what is AD?	17:41
DocScrutinizer	kW_: need to patch init scripts	17:41
DocScrutinizer	to have additional mounts	17:42
kW_	I did already patch the initscripts (e.g. to not recreate /etc/fstab)	17:42
DocScrutinizer	or to make fstab persistent :-P	17:42
DocScrutinizer	hehe, exactly	17:42
BCMM	fstab gets clobbered on reboot?	17:42
DocScrutinizer	yep :-/	17:42
BCMM	why?	17:42
DocScrutinizer	ask Nokia	17:43
BCMM	Nokia: why	17:43
kW_	hehe	17:43
BCMM	oh, they aren't in here...	17:43
jacekowski	because fstab is bad	17:43
jacekowski	it's old thing that remembers time when system had disks that never changed	17:43
DocScrutinizer	BCMM: another ncarnation of maemo hijacking the whole linux and then reinventing the original things in a crippled manner for user to cope with it	17:44
BCMM	could be worse, could be android...	17:44
DocScrutinizer	yep	17:44
kW_	well, fstab is designed in that way that it does _not_ interfere with dynamic mounts...	17:45
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: yeah, the disks in my N900 change every 10 minutes	17:46
BCMM	ah, but this will all change when USB host changes everything!	17:46
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DocScrutinizer	even compared to my laptop where I never get any new disks	17:47
DocScrutinizer	so for my laptop a static fstab is sane, while N900 obviously should regenerate it dynamically on file open()	17:48
jacekowski	are you being sarcastic now?	17:49
DocScrutinizer	ooh sorry	17:49
DocScrutinizer	</sarcasm>	17:49
pupnik	n900 effectively contains a whole rack of audio / video gear, compared to 1987 or so	17:50
Termana	:D	17:50
bunn4	/scratchbox/compilers/arm-gcc-3.3.4-glibc-2.3.2/bin/arm-linux-gcc	17:50
bunn4	what if this doesnt exist	17:51
pupnik	then it doesn't suffer	17:52
DocScrutinizer	seems Nokia has a massive problem of clash between NIH and using a FOSS OS	17:52
pupnik	why?	17:52
DocScrutinizer	yeah why? because they never really got it what FOSS is all about?	17:53
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GAN900	SD69 is such a classy dude.	17:57
DocScrutinizer	/whois SD69	17:57
GAN900	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=721673#post721673	17:57
GAN900	Some Talk joker.	17:58
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: do you happen to recall the URL of that pulseaudio - phone writeup?	17:58
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: the 5ms thing	17:58
DocScrutinizer	sure	17:58
DocScrutinizer	the pdf?	17:58
SpeedEvil	yes	17:59
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DocScrutinizer	mompls	17:59
SpeedEvil	I seem to have forgotten to bookmark it.	17:59
DocScrutinizer	http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2009/slides/Jyri-Sarha-audio_miniconf_slides.pdf should be the gem	18:00
SpeedEvil	Thanks!	18:00
DocScrutinizer	damn the laughter starts again	18:00
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SpeedEvil	Currently trying to understand the audio hardware to writeup a FAQ on it.	18:01
SpeedEvil	Well - a QITPSABDAJUP	18:02
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SpeedEvil	Questions I think people should ask, but don't, and just use pulseaudio.	18:02
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merlin_phone	does anyone know where skype saves the contact pictures on the n900	18:03
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: please reserve a special section "angry rants by DocScrutinizer" for me ;-D	18:04
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DocScrutinizer	first entry in there: <32PT, bold> WHY NEEDS PA TO KNOW ABOUT GSM OTA PACKET RATE AND TIME ADVANCE?	18:07
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SpeedEvil	I don't quite think that's referring to that.	18:08
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SpeedEvil	If my skim of it is correct, that's responding to 'queue near empty/full' messages from the GSM modems audio FIFO	18:09
DocScrutinizer	err? not?	18:09
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Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: measure latency?	18:09
Stskeeps	PA uses that a fair bit	18:09
DocScrutinizer	GSM and 3G audio frame size is 20 ms	18:10
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DocScrutinizer	Cellular frame timing is ruled by base station	18:10
DocScrutinizer	Timing of 20ms frames change in cellular hand over	18:10
DocScrutinizer	if that's not OTA, then I dunno	18:10
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Stskeeps	yes, but TA is a perspective on how long it takes to reach base station	18:11
DocScrutinizer	Synchronize up link audio buering with Cellular Modem	18:11
DocScrutinizer	Cellular Modem sends up-link timing adjustment messages	18:11
DocScrutinizer	Align up-link buering according to messages	18:12
DocScrutinizer	that's so completely and exactly just missing the point	18:13
Stskeeps	the call quality is quite nice on n900 though	18:13
DocScrutinizer	I never seen or heard of a tech spec that made me laugh more	18:13
Stskeeps	write something better then?	18:13
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merlin_phone	so does anyone know where to contact pictures from skype im accounts get saved on the n900? (I want set one phone contact to the skype pic since it's merged and has several IM users and the other pics suck :P)	18:14
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: sure, but it was as well without modem introducing irrelevant parameters to audio subsystem to tune some buffers to something they don't relate to in any way whatsoever	18:14
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merlin_phone	and i can't stand it when the pic changes everytime i log on the im services depending on wich one connects first	18:15
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: maybe you don't see the whole picture then? either way, is that fremantle or future stiff?	18:15
Stskeeps	stuff	18:15
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: PA needs to measure latency from speaker audio sink to mic audio source, to calibrate AEC. That's completely unrelated to whatever is going on at the GSM side though	18:16
luke-jr	demand open phone-CPU!	18:16
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luke-jr	<.<	18:16
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: right, but it should be synchronised with whats being sent out on gsm for power saving/avoiding cutouts/etc?	18:17
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: I think I'm well capable of seeing the whole picture, and that is fremantle stuff	18:17
Stskeeps	k	18:17
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: nonsense. The GSM audio stream is transparent to whatever the audio interface from modem to outside world might be	18:18
Stskeeps	mmkay	18:18
luke-jr	is N900 850 or 900?	18:18
DocScrutinizer	there's simply nothing to reasonably sync or adjust to	18:18
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: mail the guy and discuss	18:19
Stskeeps	first.lastname@nokia.com	18:19
DocScrutinizer	hmm, what's that worth for?	18:19
luke-jr	...	18:19
DocScrutinizer	make him feel bad? make me feel bad? make Nokia think about it?	18:19
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Stskeeps	well, whats the point of moaning about something if you don't want to discuss it?	18:19
Termana	luke-jr: 900	18:20
luke-jr	lame	18:20
luke-jr	Nokia should have made N900 quad-band with open phone-side firmware	18:20
Stskeeps	or maybe figuring out if there is a reason for those things	18:20
luke-jr	so I could mod it to talk CDMA <.<	18:20
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: well, that's maybe a valid point. If only it were "that's been the specs I got, so I implemented it that way"	18:21
ShadowJK	I think the gsm radio is quad band and the 3g is triband..	18:21
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: what - i suspect - is exactly the way it happened	18:21
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: cost of implementing something like that is too big for it being for no reason.	18:22
arachnist	luke-jr: people in the usa should've got their mobile phones "The Right Way" (tm), so that all of the carriers would use the same system	18:22
Termana	ShadowJK: thats basically the case with all 3G radios AFAIK	18:22
luke-jr	ShadowJK: I thought they used the same radio, but 3G required the 850/900 frequency?	18:22
luke-jr	arachnist: they do. all CDMA	18:22
ShadowJK	Termana, no I have a phone with quad band gsm and single-band 3g too :P	18:22
Termana	ShadowJK: :P I just meant with having quad band gsm heh	18:23
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ShadowJK	ah	18:23
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DocScrutinizer	Termana: I know of a phone with 3band GSM - it's called errrr... Freerunner	18:24
luke-jr	arachnist: AT&T has some limited 3G coverage, admittedly, but N900 doesn't support it	18:24
luke-jr	arachnist: everything else here is CDMA	18:24
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Termana	DocScrutinizer: Right, but that doesn't have 3G, thats GSM only :P So my statement still holds true	18:25
DocScrutinizer	ok	18:25
arachnist	luke-jr: well, if you would've used what is being used in the europe, there would be no problem ;)	18:25
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ShadowJK	well..	18:26
ShadowJK	It's not entirely consistent in europe either	18:27
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ShadowJK	Although the triband 3g in N900 does cover all of europe	18:27
DocScrutinizer	problem 1: CDMA in USA, only few GSM networks. Problem 2 in USA: Carriers decide to use frequencies dedicated to GSM and run UMTS on them	18:27
Termana	DocScrutinizer: speaking of the Freerunner, do you know if the *BSD on Freerunner efforts got any further than has been documented on the openmoko wiki?	18:27
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DocScrutinizer	no idea, sorry	18:27
Termana	luke-jr: I have a solution for you	18:28
DocScrutinizer	Termana: //join #openmoko(-cdevel) and ask there	18:28
Termana	DocScrutinizer: will do :) cheers. (probably tomorrow, bout to go to bed :P)	18:29
Termana	luke-jr: move. Problem fixed.	18:29
Termana	Or use t-mobile	18:29
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yigal	The external speaker makes a noise every time the screen is touched pr 1.2 is there a fix or an option i'm missing?	18:33
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Stskeeps	sure its not just the vibra?	18:33
yigal	I'll disable and see	18:34
DocScrutinizer	ts-click is an audio event, so it's not just vibra	18:34
yigal	Vibrate was off	18:35
DocScrutinizer	in settings there is a level0..2 setting for those clicks	18:35
Stskeeps	true	18:35
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Stskeeps	yigal: yes, but settings - display - touch screen vibration?	18:35
yigal	All sounds are off as far as I'm aware?	18:35
DocScrutinizer	keyboark click, touchscreen click, system signals, whatnot...	18:35
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DocScrutinizer	keyboark is nice (adding to spellchecker)	18:36
SpeedEvil	too verbose.	18:36
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SpeedEvil	The term should clearly be keybark.	18:36
yigal	Stskeeps: ty, that was it	18:36
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DocScrutinizer	see how hard my life as EE can get? I'd never figure anybody could think of vibrator as a speaker output	18:38
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shorter	why do the ringtones on the n900 get reset everytime the battery dies?	18:42
shorter	I put more ring tones in the regular directory and selected one in profile -but it doesn't stick	18:43
shorter	Also, I'm not sure it works when connected as 'mass storage' because it can't access ./MyDocs	18:43
alterego	I think my favorite thread at the moment is the miss-steps thread, it's been a really good one, high quality posts and a lot of reasonable information, seems to even be creating some good progress.	18:43
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: (interrupts from audio, 1000?/s) see >> Do block transfers to McBSP2 1280 word buffer<<	18:45
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SpeedEvil	thanks	18:47
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: (rant / questions) what is the rationale behind bothering about 5ms latency vs 20ms, when the OTA has a RTT of at least 200ms?	18:47
SpeedEvil	to avoid clicks on buffer over/underruns	18:48
Dantonic	After successfully pairing the N900 with a headset device, or my car's Bluetooth, I am able to initiate and receive calls, however any of the audio from the call is not transmitted to the paired device.	18:48
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: hypothesis: requirement specs said "keep latency as low as possible" where they should have s/possible/reasonable/	18:48
pexi	shorter, don't let the battery die. it looses capacity	18:49
Dantonic	This started happening after I tried streaming music over bluetooth...	18:49
Dantonic	any idea why?	18:49
SpeedEvil	possible.	18:49
shorter	pexi, how easily?	18:50
shorter	It has died like 4 times already	18:50
shorter	how powerful is it compared to other smart phone's batteries?	18:50
DocScrutinizer	shorter: my ringtone is sticky, and it is converted to a .wav that lives in some ~/.* folder. So umount MyDocs won't matter	18:50
pexi	well, lion batteries don't like when they get fully discharged, but i donno what kind of smart protection system n900 has	18:51
shorter	DocScrutinizer is it better than if I leave it in mp3?	18:51
shorter	pexi, the battery seems to die almost immediately after the status bar shows any red	18:52
DocScrutinizer	shorter: the settings 'app' does that converting job in background, you don't need to cope with it	18:52
shorter	why does mine get reset to a default ringer?	18:52
ShadowJK	My battery lasts a few hours after the meter goes red	18:52
DocScrutinizer	dunno	18:53
ShadowJK	(in idle)	18:53
shorter	I'm not sure about any mounting issue, but the battery dying definitely does it	18:53
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: same here	18:53
shorter	would that health program tell me if there is something wrong with my battery?	18:53
DocScrutinizer	60min with screen backlight at 100%	18:53
luke-jr	arachnist: true, but Europe has a tendency to be retarded; can't blame people for being skeptical :)	18:53
ShadowJK	pexi, I would say N900's shutdown thresholds are fine as long as you recharge it the same day after running it "dead"	18:53
luke-jr	arachnist: in any case, 3G GSM didn't exist when CDMA was being deployed here	18:54
shorter	furthermore, ps -A shows an awefully lot of stuff running, despite the fact that they don't use any cpu most of the time, it seems it might still be running downt he battery a lot	18:54
pexi	ShadowJK, ok, good to know	18:54
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: how would reducing the buffer size from 20ms to 5ms avoid any clicking/dropouts?	18:54
luke-jr	Termana: I cannot legally leave Nebraska. If you have an idea for amnesty somewhere else, including travel arrangements without passports, please let me know.	18:54
luke-jr	Termana: also, no T-Mobile in Nebraksa	18:54
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: or buffer over/underruns	18:55
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: more the opposite is true	18:55
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: the smaller the bufer, the more likely you get OF/UF	18:55
luke-jr	Termana: also, "somewhere else" would need to be an improvement over NE :P	18:56
ShadowJK	shorter, well, generally speaking powertop is more useful for finding out what's killing standby time.. also, the facebook widget is well known for sucking batteries empty in no time	18:56
ShadowJK	Although powertop was removed from later firmware images :(	18:56
GAN900	I guess we can probably unsticky the brainstorm threads. . . .	18:57
Stskeeps	luke-jr: why can't you legally leave nebraska, out of curiousity?	18:57
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luke-jr	Stskeeps: this State is getting close to a dictatorship	18:58
Stskeeps	luke-jr: .. practical reaons	18:58
Stskeeps	reasons	18:58
alterego	I've noticed that my N900 charger is one of those brutish ones that are quite hard to push in and release, my usb cables are all fine though. what shojuld I do?	18:58
luke-jr	Stskeeps: my wife has a mental illness	18:58
luke-jr	Stskeeps: in Nebraska, that is basically grounds for them to claim custody of our children	18:58
th3hate	is there any way to retrieve the media player widget if i uninstalled it?	18:59
Stskeeps	ok, but have they?	18:59
luke-jr	yes, as soon as feds gave them jurisdiction (6 months after we moved here)	18:59
luke-jr	Legal separation allows me to regain my own custody alone	18:59
luke-jr	but	18:59
luke-jr	in NE, legal separation also means you need court permission to leave the state	18:59
Stskeeps	so, when kids are 18, you can leave the state?	19:00
Stskeeps	:P	19:00
luke-jr	...	19:00
luke-jr	by that time, Nebraska will hopefully no longer exist	19:00
DocScrutinizer	alterego: be carefull on inserting/retracting the USB plug. It will wear and get more easy/gentle after a few 1000 rounds	19:01
shorter	can bar showing connections, batterylife, and misc widgets become full?	19:01
shorter	...I'm asking because I installed some more (tor) that take up space in there, and now my flashlight app disappeared	19:01
luke-jr	my lawyer is helping me get court permission to leave the state	19:01
luke-jr	but my wife's guardian ad litem is likely to try to object somehow	19:02
Stskeeps	and you can't be guardian of your wife? :P	19:02
luke-jr	Stskeeps: potentially, if she had a legal guardian	19:02
Stskeeps	mmkay	19:02
luke-jr	guardian ad litem is a lawyer that second-guesses her in this specific court case more or less	19:02
luke-jr	she has her own lawyer that represents her	19:03
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th3hate	what's the name of media player widget package?? i want to apt-get it????	19:03
Stskeeps	next question is if you knew of this problem before getting married and having children..	19:03
luke-jr	Stskeeps: nope, kinda irrelevant tho	19:03
luke-jr	we didn't live in Nebraska then, either	19:03
luke-jr	I was a fool to not look up the laws here first I guess	19:04
Stskeeps	heh	19:04
luke-jr	Stskeeps: the problem didn't really manifest until our 2nd was born	19:05
luke-jr	triggered more or less by post-partum depression	19:05
Stskeeps	so she didn't have a legal guardian by the time you got married?	19:05
luke-jr	she still doesn't.	19:05
Stskeeps	mmkay	19:05
luke-jr	guardian != guardian ad litem	19:05
luke-jr	the GAL can only second guess her in regards to the specific court case involving the children	19:06
Stskeeps	then again, that should apply for a lot of people, since that can't be a uncommon problem.	19:06
luke-jr	triggered by post-partum, not simply post-partum :)	19:07
th3hate	someone help me for the love of god@@@	19:07
luke-jr	bi-polar	19:07
luke-jr	anyhow, I have to run	19:07
luke-jr	gonna be late for lunch	19:07
luke-jr	<.<	19:07
pexi	are there any app for locking/showing clock when your phone is locked. so you can watch just the time rather than 'logging in'	19:10
Stskeeps	pexi: tap the top button	19:10
pexi	and can I lock this manually?	19:12
pexi	:)	19:12
pexi	I really don't like using this as a phone	19:12
pexi	:)	19:12
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: the paper mentiones "simple bufering would add... 20ms latency [so we invent a weird scheme to get that down to 5ms]". 15ms difference in latency correspond to the delay caused by 5m distance from the phone in speaker mode. Would anybody care about the latency introduced into a phonecall by a 5m distance from speaker/mic to user?	19:14
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shorter	how should I get powertop then ShadowJK?	19:26
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DocScrutinizer	shorter: maybe google will find a .deb to download somewhere	19:27
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shorter	DocScrutinizer, what softare do you recommend to figure out what is costing the most power?	19:28
DocScrutinizer	powertop	19:28
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DocScrutinizer	as for now speedevil's more tailored-to-the-device aproach isn't complete yet	19:28
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Stskeeps	heh, i forgot how speedy Diablo on N8x0 actually felt at times	19:30
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ShadowJK	indeed :-)	19:33
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shorter	anyone here use googlevoice?	19:34
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DocScrutinizer	shorter: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=491333#post491333	19:35
hpbox	hi, is there some program for the n900 where I can mark a place on a map, then go there later? I've looked at Maep and Maps but they both seem to lack the ability to save a location	19:36
shorter	lol, reading that as we speak	19:36
shorter	i think mappero	19:36
pcfe	hpbox: Mappero	19:37
hpbox	thanks I'll check it out	19:37
hpbox	btw I think I found a bug in Maps	19:37
pcfe	file a bug report then	19:37
hpbox	this isn't the place to report it I guess ..	19:37
hpbox	will do thank you	19:37
pcfe	no, needs to go to bug tracker	19:37
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ham5	yea theres this one program to mark where your car is so you can go back to it	20:08
ham5	sure it work son gps	20:08
yigal	Where can i download transmission?	20:09
crashanddie	yigal: the internet	20:10
ham5	its in the repos	20:10
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yigal	ham5: devel repos?	20:11
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ham5	or testing	20:14
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kW_	Hello! Does anybody know where received SMS messages are stored?	20:41
crashanddie	kW_: in a database	20:42
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Arkenoi	kw: sqlite	20:42
ham5	conversations	20:42
teilzeitstudent	kW_, at this link you'll find where that db is.. and other things: http://blogs.sans.org/computer-forensics/2010/03/17/nokia-n900-forensic-cheat-sheet/	20:43
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crashanddie	kW_: /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger/el.db	20:44
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kW_	thank you :-)	20:45
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kW_	did anybody of you try out phone calls over SIP over WLAN on the N900	20:45
kW_	?	20:45
teilzeitstudent	But another matter: Does anyone know how IM & Skype servers handle beeing logged in to the same account via your PC and maemo? I.e. can I log into the same skype account from my PC and my n900?	20:46
merlin1991	teilzeitstudent I just did that	20:46
merlin1991	you get the msgs on both devices then	20:46
merlin1991	if you type on your pc you get your own msg on the n900 then too and vice versa	20:46
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teilzeitstudent	merlin1991, ah nice. Do you know what happens when you get a call?	20:47
merlin1991	didn't try that :)	20:47
crashanddie	kW_: sure	20:47
teilzeitstudent	Alright thanks	20:47
crashanddie	kW_: my ISP's modems provide specific wifi networks I can connect to to call with	20:48
teilzeitstudent	Then I just need to somehow link a cellphone call to skype to make a conference call :p	20:48
crashanddie	kW_: so I've got wifi networks all around the country I can use to call with	20:48
crashanddie	teilzeitstudent: yes, you can be logged to one account from multiple location	20:49
crashanddie	merlin1991: all logged-in clients will ring, when you pick up on one device, the others will show "missed call from"	20:50
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kW_	crashanddie: well, the voice quality seems to be skippy in my first attempt	20:53
crashanddie	then it's your network	20:54
teilzeitstudent	crashanddie, thats actually smarter than I expected it to be.	20:54
crashanddie	I've been using Skype and SIP all over the world, usually continents apart, never had issues unless due to networking problems	20:54
crashanddie	and Skype/SIP usually works better than HTTP, because of QoS	20:54
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kW_	crashanddie: well, it is a local WLAN	20:55
crashanddie	and?	20:55
Macer	skype seems to work fine for me	20:56
crashanddie	kW_: it being local doesn't mean it's good...	20:56
Macer	even over 3G	20:56
kW_	crashanddie: but what _is_ skippy is actually the WLAN of the N900, I get ping round-trip times in the 100eds of milliseconds	20:56
kW_	compared to less than 10ms when using the laptop... then on the WLAN-side, something is probably wrong	20:56
Macer	i get 200ms+ over tmob	20:56
Macer	skype seems fine	20:57
Macer	maybe a little longer of a slight delay	20:57
crashanddie	kW_: you could have a stupid router that doesn't play nice with the Power Saving features of the N900, you could have it configured on on the same channel as everyone on your building (channel 6 or 12, by any chance?), resulting in crappy network performance	20:57
crashanddie	kW_: millions of people are using skype and SIP just fine, don't toss it because you can't diagnostic it, thanks	20:57
crashanddie	going for food, later all	20:57
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derf	Pretty much every router I've ever used falls under this "stupid router" category.	20:57
kW_	well, my router is actually doing fine with any other WLAN device in the vicinity	20:58
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derf	Yes, but they're not trying the N900's aggressive power saving.	20:59
merlin1991	what's so special about the n900 power saving?	20:59
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derf	It tries to coordinate things so that the radio is only on during a small, predefined interval, and the AP knows to send data during that interval.	21:00
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derf	Except when the AP doesn't know, or is out of sync, that means it has to re-transmit things until it gets lucky enough to send it during the interval the N900 radio is on.	21:01
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kW_	well, which ping-times over WLAN do you achieve with your n900?	21:01
Ikarus	kW_: as low as for my laptop	21:02
Surfa	not to mention that cheapie wlan aps work quite interestingly very often	21:03
Surfa	typically they work in a way that's easiest to implement, no matter if it's according to spec or not :)	21:03
Surfa	wlan iop is very tricky thing	21:03
kW_	Ikarus: well, give a number :-)	21:04
Ikarus	kW_: under 10ms	21:04
Ikarus	kW_: depending of other traffic	21:04
Ikarus	(collisions and all that)	21:04
ShadowJK	rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 48.572/173.105/317.873/78.585 ms	21:05
ShadowJK	(17 packets)	21:05
ShadowJK	1 second interval	21:05
ShadowJK	rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.661/99.701/219.985/39.648 ms	21:05
kW_	so the average is 173ms?	21:05
ShadowJK	.1 second interval	21:05
ShadowJK	yes	21:05
kW_	I get "rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 3.066/209.707/591.759/147.563 ms"	21:05
kW_	ShadowJK: well, that's still slow in your case	21:06
Appiah	hey.. anyone else havin problems with zoutube?	21:06
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kW_	Ikarus: what is the output of "ping -c 10 192.168.0.53 \| tail -n 1" where "192.168.0.53" is the IP address of your N900?	21:07
Ikarus	kW_: depends on where I run it from (laptop or desktop)	21:07
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kW_	Ikarus: well, run it from both ;-) (or choose any device, just make sure it goes over WLAN)	21:08
SpeedEvil	kwrtt min/avg/max/mdev = 95.158/251.043/456.854/118.766 ms	21:08
SpeedEvil	tjhat's with powersave on	21:09
SpeedEvil	with powersave off, it is some 10ms IIRC	21:09
kW_	where can I change the powersave settings?	21:09
kW_	well, 450ms jitter is probably too much for SIP...	21:10
benno2	SpeedEvil, Hi, about the audio discussion on maemo-developers as expected nothing useful (nothing technical) came out. just that I'm barking on the wrong tree and engaging in long diatribes :)	21:10
SpeedEvil	the long diatribe is not helpful	21:10
SpeedEvil	generally	21:10
SpeedEvil	kW_: it gets better if you use the net intensively	21:11
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benno2	SpeedEvil, I know but some background to explain everything is needed. I just have the feeling that when it comes ot audio very little people are knowledgable. they know that the media player plays an audio and sends pcm data to the audio card but then it ends there.	21:12
kW_	SpeedEvil: well, I use it as intensively as necessary to do SIP calls...	21:12
SpeedEvil	infobot: powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings.	21:12
infobot	...but powersave is already something else...	21:12
* SpeedEvil sighs.		21:12
SpeedEvil	~powersave	21:13
infobot	setterm -powersave waste	21:13
SpeedEvil	~forget powersave	21:13
SpeedEvil	infobot: no, powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings.	21:13
infobot	okay, SpeedEvil	21:13
SpeedEvil	~powersave	21:13
infobot	hmm... powersave is a wireless power saving technology that keeps the radio off much of the time to save power. You enable or disable this by selecting settings->internet connections, then carry on through the connection settings to the end, clicking 'next' till you get to 'advanced' - where you can set powersaving settings.	21:13
Ikarus	SpeedEvil: also explain what the settings do	21:14
benno2	does anyone experience occasional audio dropouts (clicks,skips,pops), for example during mp3 playbacks, video playback VOIP apps etc ?	21:14
SpeedEvil	benno2: yes	21:14
SpeedEvil	benno2: you nee concrete examples, not 'pulseaudio sucks'	21:14
benno2	SpeedEvil, yes. what is a typical case where you get audio clicks ?	21:15
SpeedEvil	play music or listen to FM radio.	21:15
SpeedEvil	Install an application.	21:15
kW_	ah, with fully disabled powersave, I get 3ms ping times :-)	21:16
Ikarus	benno2: only on heavy system load	21:16
kW_	and no more drops in SIP call quality :-)	21:16
benno2	Ikarus, yes but which apps then cause audio dropouts ? audio/video player or apps like skype too ?	21:17
Ikarus	kW_: hack the SIP app to enable/disable WiFi powersaving on the fly	21:17
Ikarus	benno2: it's due to swapping	21:17
SpeedEvil	I suspect it's swapping too	21:17
kW_	Ikarus: well, I should add this as a bug report somewhere... but where actually?	21:17
teilzeitstudent	benno2, for me, everything that uses the CPU a lot. the app manager, browsing with 4~ open windows..even one will do when a lot of flash is used	21:17
Ikarus	kW_: bugs.maemo.org ?	21:18
Ikarus	or whatever the name is	21:18
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Ikarus	kW_: Nokia devs take over stuff from it	21:18
jacekowski	i hate wanna-build	21:18
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SpeedEvil	jacekowski: ?	21:18
jacekowski	for some fucking reason it doesn't see my uploads	21:18
SpeedEvil	ah	21:18
SpeedEvil	Have you tried hitting it repeatedly with a hockey stick smeared in essence of trout?	21:19
jacekowski	and x-fade isn't here so i can't just ask him to send his config files to me	21:19
kW_	does "Bugs against packages which have not been modified for Maemo should be reported upstream to their developers or maintainers." mean I should go to nokia directly?	21:19
RST38h	Have you tried a sacrifice?	21:19
RST38h	A small rodent will suffice, as far as the builder is concerned	21:19
benno2	teilzeitstudent, then you get audio skips on apps like skype/voip apps too ? or only in the audio player ?	21:20
SpeedEvil	kW_: the proper place for this would be icd - it needs to be configured to vary powersaving on the fly	21:20
SpeedEvil	benno2: I also get skips on 'FMradio'	21:20
teilzeitstudent	benno2, the default audio player, nqaap, fm radio client, havnt tested skype.	21:20
benno2	SpeedEvil, sad. because it is routed through pulse audio ?	21:20
SpeedEvil	yes	21:20
SpeedEvil	It's also possible to setup the audio hardware so the CPU is not involved at all, but that is not done	21:21
Ikarus	kW_: no, Maemo == Nokia for that	21:22
teilzeitstudent	Which reminds me.. is there any overview about how sound is handled? i.e. which subsystems are involved in which way? pulseaudio, alsa, ... what else? And at which points the profiles are used etc?	21:22
SpeedEvil	teilzeitstudent: I was planning on writing one.	21:23
SpeedEvil	but ...	21:23
teilzeitstudent	Found some PDF slide show somewhere, but that wasnt too helpfull	21:23
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SpeedEvil	alsa is basically uninvolved	21:23
SpeedEvil	save as a compatibility layer over pulse, and what pulse attaches to the hardware with (unsure)	21:23
SpeedEvil	All apps talk to pulse	21:23
kW_	well, the other side still seems to have some dropouts... even with wireless powersave switched off	21:23
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benno2	SpeedEvil, well then is seems the whole system is quite weak. because pulseaudio. on the mailinglist I just got a repsonse on the ML: "As I understand it, pulseaudio on the n900 achieves 5ms latency, and a few dozen microseconds of jitter.It's just not for normal users."	21:24
teilzeitstudent	SpeedEvil, well I'm kinda curious about the "silent" profile (which stops all sound expept the audioplayer"	21:24
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SpeedEvil	Pulse talks to the hardware, which has a very flexible audio routing engine.	21:24
SpeedEvil	benno2: yes - that was me - and I pointed at a PDF	21:24
jacekowski	fucking fuck	21:24
benno2	SpeedEvil, :)	21:25
* SpeedEvil sighs.		21:25
* SpeedEvil needs minions.		21:25
teilzeitstudent	"Jyri-Sarha-audio_miniconf_slides.pdf"? :P	21:25
RST38h	jacek: just wasted a perfectly good pet hamster?	21:25
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benno2	SpeedEvil, but the numbers on paper do not seem to reflect the real numbers users are seeing.	21:25
SpeedEvil	benno2: yes - as I understand it, the mobile phone side is dealt with very differently to the rest of the auido	21:26
SpeedEvil	benno2: I would load something like angry birds, and then look a t ho it does sounds.	21:26
benno2	teilzeitstudent, that PDF is a bit of a joke. lots of nice theory but in practice the system is quite weak.	21:26
teilzeitstudent	benno2, I wouldnt know. Understood the title, then my head started hurting.	21:27
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teilzeitstudent	All I really wanted to do was route the cell "sound" to skype via a bit of sox. But that relies heavily on alsa	21:29
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benno2	teilzeitstudent, my head started hurting by reading all the lies in that document! good idea, bad implementation	21:30
SpeedEvil	benno2: The paper is largely orthogonal to normal sound on the device as I understand it. It simply shows that the hardware, and some elements of pulse can do it.	21:30
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dr34m	whats a good ebook reader ? something not so memory hungry	21:31
SpeedEvil	I have used FBReader for a few dozen books.	21:32
SpeedEvil	Works OK.	21:32
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benno2	SpeedEvil, if Nokia had a brain, they would have investigated what's currently available on Linux. They would have discovered JACK and could have written a few modules for it to accomodate their needs (power management mainly). most best brains about linux audio are on the linux-audio-dev ML. asking for advice would cost nothing.	21:32
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SpeedEvil	yes	21:32
RST38h	good good	21:33
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RST38h	linux-audio-dev <-- good place to start when creating lists of people for extermination	21:33
RST38h	maybe then we will not have o rewrite all the apps to the next greatest audio framework every two years	21:35
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derf	You only have this problem because you insist on having apps with sound.	21:36
RST38h	correct, yes	21:36
luke-jr	pfft	21:37
benno2	RST38h, yes sometimes the mood isn't that good, some are stubborn etc. but the most competent people on the subject are there. and there are the linux audio conferences where people give prsentations about the current status about linux audio etc. Wondering why Nokia di not tap into that developer pool.	21:37
luke-jr	there have only ever been two audio frameworks worth using	21:37
luke-jr	not a big problem	21:37
RST38h	benno: absolutely no need in such people	21:37
RST38h	benno: there is a need in peope with enough guts to go back to /dev/audio	21:38
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lcuk	does anyone know where i ca nget a tardis from?	21:38
benno2	RST38h, the JACK API for example has remained quite stable and you can exchange JACK1 for JACK2 server and apps still work. In linux sampler it has been ages that we did not touch the jack audio output module.	21:38
luke-jr	benno2: but JACK is just some lame layer	21:38
RST38h	lcuk: will tell you if you tell me where I can get today's episode from =)	21:38
luke-jr	ALSA works just fine as it is	21:38
RST38h	luke: not really	21:38
pupnik_	why not compile jack for n900 and try it	21:38
RST38h	luke: I guess you have never tried programming with ALSA	21:39
pupnik_	money -> mouth	21:39
benno2	I don't know how many native pulseaudio apps there are, but the list of apps supporting JACK is getting very long while on the homepage of pulseaudio I see just a couple of clients.	21:39
lcuk	RST38h, #bbc tv at its finest. come over to england this week, you can watch it on iplayer	21:39
luke-jr	RST38h: nope	21:39
luke-jr	I'm happy with the OSS API	21:39
luke-jr	that ALSA is compatible with	21:39
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RST38h	benno2: perfect, another audio api	21:40
RST38h	luke: ALSA simulates OSS API	21:40
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benno2	luke-jr, yes ALSA works but the problem is that on a phone you need to route and mix several sources. one could IMO just implement an ALSA dmix plugin too. except for mixing and routing I think that a phone does not require a very flexible system. more or less everything is "hardwired"	21:40
luke-jr	everything supports OSS API :)	21:40
RST38h	luke: but it is quite a bit more, and that "bit" is a freaking mess	21:40
RST38h	"OSS API" itself is an extension of the /dev/audio	21:41
luke-jr	benno2: ALSA has a dmix plugin, enabled by default	21:41
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luke-jr	benno2: and this is #maemo, not #openmoko	21:41
pupnik_	benno2: bluetooth sinks are dynamic	21:41
RST38h	So, BSD people at some point reimplemented a cut-down version of the OSS API and called it /dev/pcm, linked to /dev/dsp	21:42
Appiah	can anyone verify that zoutube works atm?	21:42
benno2	luke-jr, yes, OSS was quite simple, but as soon as you depart from the stereo soundcard model OSS is getting harder to deal with. so cards with 5.1 outs are getting more common and ALSA better deals with such stuff.	21:42
luke-jr	benno2: I have two ears.	21:42
luke-jr	<.<	21:42
RST38h	benno: could you please explain why you need 5.1 output in a laptop?	21:42
RST38h	or a phone?	21:42
SpeedEvil	RST38h: It is nice to plug the phone into stuff as a media source.	21:43
RST38h	(and what prevents you from having 6 values per sample anyway)	21:43
pupnik_	right SpeedEvil	21:43
pupnik_	see N8 / hdmi	21:43
luke-jr	RST38h: to be fair, I can see a legitimate need to have independent and concurring outputs via headset and speakers on a handheld device	21:43
RST38h	Speed: And you have got a 5+1 audio system? The one that is really better than two speakers?	21:43
benno2	RST38h, the Nokia N8 for example comes with a HDMI out with dolby audio out. if it ran Linux it would be hard to address it with the OSS API. (N8 runs symbian^3)	21:44
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RST38h	benno: you can easily enough transfer 6 values/sample in the OSS API	21:44
SpeedEvil	RST38h: I am currently using a mono 4" speaker for much of my audio.	21:44
RST38h	speedevil: same here	21:45
SpeedEvil	DAB radio - waterproof - 13h battery life, can drop a brick on it, and it will be a bit scuffed.	21:46
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benno2	RST38h, yes I know but then one has to standardize the stuff. today it's 6 values (5.1 out), tomorrow. or 3 values as said could mean 3 stereo outs etc. in that regard ALSA is more flexible and ready for such multichannel scenarios. and the API has remained quite stable lately. but I agree, OSS was quite straightforward to use. (except the mmap() API perhaps)	21:47
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RST38h	benno: And believe it or not, OSS API supports this too	21:47
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mece_	hey anyone here have righttoleft lanuage input on their phone?	21:55
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Arkenoi	why if i set up an adhoc network once, it is stuck as visible forever even if it is not in range and gone for good?	21:56
Corsac	because it's adhoc?	21:56
crashanddie	Arkenoi: it's the whole point of ad-hoc	21:56
Corsac	there's no such thing as “out of range” for ad-hoc networks	21:56
ManoftheSea	um	21:58
ManoftheSea	there is, just not that the device can tell you.	21:58
ManoftheSea	It's gonna form a network of one.	21:58
ManoftheSea	But a network of one is pretty much what I'd define as "out of range"	21:58
crashanddie	ManoftheSea: except anyone can connect to it	21:59
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Corsac	(and that's the point, again)	22:01
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Creteil	hi all	22:01
crashanddie	It's like the "Free Public Wifi" ad-hoc network that has travelled around the world and then some	22:01
Creteil	someone know how I can fetch directly the modest-3.4 branch from git ?	22:01
Creteil	I have successfully get the tarball from gitorious and build it, but I want to be able to get latest comit's with a simple git pull in this branch ...	22:03
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Creteil	allo ?	22:05
crashanddie	Creteil: ask in #git?	22:06
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18VAA2N09	hello	22:07
18VAA2N09	where could I study nanotechnology and help to in developing it	22:07
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Stskeeps	university is a good bet	22:07
18VAA2N09	MIT?	22:08
Creteil	crashanddie, hehehe, not a bad idea :-)	22:08
Stskeeps	check their research centers	22:08
trumee	i uploaded some images using picasaweb sharing plugin, the uploaded images dont have latitude and longitude	22:08
trumee	i have noticed same thing with facebook sharing plugin as well. is that a bug?	22:09
crashanddie	18VAA2N09: really the wrong channel	22:09
jacekowski	18VAA2N09: if i were you i wouldn't aim for MIT after asking that sort of question	22:09
trumee	or am i missing something.	22:09
crashanddie	jacekowski: good point	22:09
crashanddie	18VAA2N09: what's your knowledge of nanotechnology?	22:09
18VAA2N09	nothing much, but I don't know eny other way to help make life better xD	22:10
jacekowski	i would like to do some sort of bioengineering bioinformatics stuff	22:10
18VAA2N09	any*	22:10
mece_	trumee, you can choose in options of the sharing if you want to include precise positioning, iirc	22:10
jacekowski	but i'm too old for that now	22:10
lcuk	you are never too old to try something	22:11
jacekowski	i would have to get a-level's in biology and chemistry	22:11
jacekowski	which is at least 2 years	22:11
frals	fuckin hell why doesnt ikea.fi have the site available in swedish	22:11
lcuk	18VAA2N09, great you came to maemo to askthose questions, we are all about making things work in tiny boxes :D	22:11
pexi	biochemistry	22:11
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* frals blames lcuk		22:11
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hrw\|n900	hi	22:11
lcuk	frals, why the hell dont you work at ikea :P	22:11
jacekowski	and then another couple years at uni	22:12
frals	according to my friend who works for them in sweden they pay isnt that good!	22:12
pexi	if you fail, with biochemistry you can always choose to go for the M.D road :)	22:12
lcuk	its the only workplace you can do naked tho - so that solves one of your crisis questions	22:12
trumee	mece_: I have three options in sharing 1) Keep all 2) Remove gps coord and 3) Remove all in file. I had selected 1) but still the coordinates were lost	22:12
frals	lol lcuk	22:13
mece_	trumee, did you have positioning enabled elsewhere?	22:13
lcuk	hi hrw\|n900 \o	22:13
lcuk	trumee, did the images have gpd coordinates embedded ?	22:13
trumee	mece_: The images have coordinates in them. I can see it in image details	22:14
trumee	lcuk: yes, the gps coordinates are embedded	22:14
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hrw\|n900	how many of you use hermes?	22:14
trumee	lcuk: Image details shows GPS Long/Lat/Alt on N900. But picasaweb doesnt have that info	22:15
trumee	hrw\|n900: i have used hermes	22:15
lcuk	ok trumee does picasaweb resave the images and lose them?	22:15
crashanddie	lcuk: no, the N900 probably does	22:15
crashanddie	trumee: are you sharing at full size?	22:16
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lcuk	hes already answered the question about tags to keep	22:16
lcuk	trumee, how about uploading another and confirming you hit 1	22:16
trumee	crashanddie: Image size is set to "Preserve Original"	22:16
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trumee	lcuk: ok, going to try it again.	22:17
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lcuk	crashanddie, doctorwho was awesome this week :D	22:18
crashanddie	lcuk: haven't watched it, haven't watched any with the new doctor	22:18
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crashanddie	lcuk: I think i won't be able to watch him	22:18
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lcuk	heh	22:19
trumee	lcuk: confirmed, picasaweb doesnt show the coordinates	22:19
crashanddie	trumee: link?	22:19
lcuk	trumee, does it retain the other information tho?	22:19
trumee	lcuk: yes it does	22:19
lcuk	since you selected option (1) which was keep everything	22:19
lcuk	and the source image you just uploaded DID have gps in confirmed?	22:20
lcuk	if thats the case: bug time	22:20
SpeedEvil	If you're uploading to picasa an image that includes EXIF GPS in, and picasa is not using it, that's picasas problem	22:20
crashanddie	lcuk & trumee: I doubt picasaweb would remove any kind of exif data. You could check the source of the exporter plugin	22:20
GAN900	crashanddie, sucker.	22:20
SpeedEvil	Also	22:20
crashanddie	GAN900: wanker	22:20
SpeedEvil	there is a google command line thingy	22:20
trumee	lcuk, crashanddie:http://pastebin.com/xftWXtXi	22:20
crashanddie	trumee: LINK?	22:21
SpeedEvil	http://code.google.com/p/googlecl/wiki/ExampleScripts	22:21
crashanddie	trumee: just take a bloody picture and upload it.	22:21
SpeedEvil	very handy	22:21
SpeedEvil	it uploads to picasa using python	22:21
SpeedEvil	(and does many other things)	22:21
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hrw	hi	22:23
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trumee	crashanddie: here you go, http://picasaweb.google.com/rajil.s/Test#5484566361256225154	22:25
ofauchon	Hi ... 2 days ago, my N900 went off, and was rebooting. I reflashed (System first, then eMMC, with battery full). Now I can see the five dots animation, and then it reboots forever. Any idea ? thx	22:26
hrw	Jaffa: present?	22:26
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trumee	crashanddie: so it is a bug in picasaweb?	22:27
crashanddie	trumee: Latitude: 52° 12' 16" N	22:28
crashanddie	Longitude: 0° 7' 3" E	22:28
trumee	crashanddie: where do you see that?	22:29
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crashanddie	trumee: after downloading the picture	22:29
crashanddie	trumee: so picasa just doesn't display it	22:29
trumee	crashanddie: ah!, so picasaweb doesnt display the tags right	22:29
crashanddie	indeed	22:29
trumee	crashanddie: facebook also has a similar issue i think	22:30
crashanddie	trumee: go to picasa web settings	22:30
trumee	crashanddie:cool. got it!	22:31
crashanddie	trumee: make sure the "use my gps camera's longitude information"	22:31
trumee	crashanddie: "Automatically map photos if they contain location data."	22:32
crashanddie	hmm	22:32
trumee	crashanddie: i had the above option, and enabling it shows the right tags	22:32
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crashanddie	there you go :)	22:33
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crashanddie	wrong button	22:34
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mece_	soo.. anyone around with arabic or hebrew input on their phone?	22:37
trumee	crashanddie: if i tag the photo in N900 (e.g. travel) while sharing, the gps tags are lost on upload	22:38
trumee	crashanddie: nope i was wrong	22:39
trumee	crashanddie: the tags are retained, i checked it by downloading the image from picasaweb. So it is a picasa problem. Not to worry	22:40
crashanddie	trumee: use flickr :P	22:40
trumee	crashanddie: is there a sharing plugin for flickr?	22:40
crashanddie	trumee: yeah, it's shipped by default	22:41
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crashanddie	trumee: it's the reason I started using flickr, when I got the N900 in Amsterdam	22:41
trumee	crashanddie:all my family is on gmail. so it is simpler to use picasa.	22:41
crashanddie	trumee: same here, Flickr just works a lot better overall	22:41
trumee	crashanddie: hmm. i will try it out	22:42
trumee	crashanddie: is it possible to set the album name from N900. In picasa everything goes to Dropbox which is painfull	22:43
trumee	crashanddie: and i meant for flickr btw.	22:43
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mece_	trumee, in share via service->options, isn't there a "choose album"?	22:44
trumee	mece_: I want to create a new album instead of choosing an existing album name.	22:45
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DocScrutinizer	ovi share FTW :-P	22:48
mece_	I use ovi share	22:48
DocScrutinizer	and yes, the 'create new album" option obviously is missing	22:48
mece_	trumee, I don't think you can from the plugin	22:48
* Stskeeps got the 3d driver in N8x0 working.		22:49
mece_	Denmaaaaaaaark!	22:49
mece_	\o/	22:49
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: you rock!	22:49
mece_	Stskeeps, omg! That took a while ;) You rock!	22:49
Stskeeps	there's a bunch of HW recovery stuff, but i see stuff spinning on my screen	22:49
mece_	yay verily yay!	22:50
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mece_	Stskeep++	22:50
mece_	?	22:50
mece_	öh I forget how that is done	22:50
Stskeeps	hehe	22:51
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DocScrutinizer	~stskeeps++	22:51
lcuk	Stskeeps, is that on diablo?	22:52
DocScrutinizer	now I have to kick myself :-P	22:52
Stskeeps	lcuk: yes	22:52
lcuk	kickass \o/	22:52
Stskeeps	still a lot of work to be done but the principle works	22:52
DocScrutinizer	:-D	22:52
trumee	crashanddie: do i need to enable gps coord in flickr, as i did with picasaweb. The long/lat tags re not showing up in flickr.	22:52
lcuk	sure, so this is an advance on the 3d driver working a while ago? :D	22:52
crashanddie	trumee: look at advanced Exif	22:53
Stskeeps	there's some things we need to look at still, but this is useful	22:53
Stskeeps	http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/gl/wrapperwsegl.c	22:54
Stskeeps	scroll down to wseglSwapDrawable	22:54
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solrize	Oh heh, "remote sim mode" doesn't do anything like what it sounded like. which raises the question, is it possible to do what it sounded like? i.e. proxy a sim card between two phones via bluetooth	22:54
alterego	solrize: no, not really.	22:55
trumee	crashanddie: http://www.flickr.com/photos/67572716@N00/4714633781/	22:55
trumee	crashanddie: The exif data doesnt show gps lat/long	22:55
DocScrutinizer	solrize: you'd need the AT+CSIM method in modem for that, and it's usually crippled or nonexistent, aiui	22:55
solrize	alterego, hmm, what's the issue? data rate? latency?	22:55
lcuk	Stskeeps, ewww - you define fd=-1; then test if(fd==-1) :p	22:55
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solrize	DocScrutinizer, hmm.	22:56
lcuk	and even then dont check that you actually managed to open it correctly!	22:56
Stskeeps	lcuk: static	22:56
Stskeeps	:P	22:56
Stskeeps	lcuk: and yes..	22:56
crashanddie	trumee: doesn't appear to have it	22:56
Stskeeps	it is ugly	22:56
lcuk	the update there is what you were asking me last night were you	22:56
Stskeeps	:nod:	22:56
alterego	solrize: it's just not possible, no one has or will bother writing that feature, what would be the point?	22:56
lcuk	eep didnt see the static and yeah thats ugly ass	22:56
trumee	crashanddie: so N900 ate it while uploading.	22:56
crashanddie	it did	22:57
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crashanddie	trumee: http://www.flickr.com/photos/byte/3079897126/meta/	22:57
crashanddie	trumee: this one has full gps data	22:57
solrize	http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7137565/description.html somebody seems to have patented it! found that by googling at+csim	22:57
mece_	what is up with autobuilder again?	22:57
DocScrutinizer	check your upload options! you can remove geotags iirc	22:57
crashanddie	trumee: http://www.flickr.com/account/geo/exif/?from=privacy	22:58
DocScrutinizer	and that's a persistent setting (thank gods of hildon)	22:59
solrize	The Neo1973 will support +CSIM, but for security reasons, no access to	23:02
solrize	GSM applications (instruction class 0xA0) is allowed.	23:02
solrize	what's the security issue?	23:02
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DocScrutinizer	(AT+CSIM) there's actually one phone that has full support, when you update modem firmware to http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/calypso_moko_FW/moko11/	23:02
trumee	crashanddie: yup, with that link it works now. Thanks	23:02
DocScrutinizer	(two phones to be precise: 1973 and Freerunner)	23:04
mece_	OMG FUCKING ABULL_UK!!!!!! AAARGH!! rips hair out	23:04
mece_	s/ABULL/ABILL/	23:04
infobot	mece_ meant: OMG FUCKING ABILL_UK!!!!!! AAARGH!! rips hair out	23:04
mece_	haha. made infobot swear. Shame on you infobot	23:04
DocScrutinizer	you could repeat that several times even :-P	23:05
solrize	are those functions accessible from the sim card through a smart card reader? and is the sim part of the gsm radio, i.e. not directly accessible from the phone? that surprises me since it's full of address book info etc	23:05
lauri	hey guys, does anyone of you know how are those two-line buttons made (like the ones in addressbook)?	23:05
RST38h	what? he went out of his mind again/	23:05
RST38h	?	23:05
mece_	lauri, two-line? Que?	23:06
RST38h	lauri: there is a secondary text	23:06
DocScrutinizer	solrize: yes	23:06
crashanddie	mece_: that's enough	23:06
mece_	crashanddie, sorry.	23:06
lauri	RST38h: how is it implemented?	23:07
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crashanddie	lmao, in "The Sound of Music", the uncle suddenly calls the kids "You bunch of gloomy pussies"	23:08
Jaffa	hrw: yes, but intermittently and possibly not in a receptive mood now.	23:09
mece_	lauri, like this: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/html/sec-Buttons.html	23:09
crashanddie	Jaffa: "CATCH"	23:09
lauri	mece_: I see, what about PyQt4?	23:10
GAN900	Jaffa, "not in a receptive mood"? :D	23:10
mece_	lauri, hmm. dunno about that. I haven't tried to make any.	23:11
ofauchon	Jaffa, could you help me with a bricked n900 (reboots when dots cycling) . I did everything : Full Battery, System then eMMC.... No more idea	23:11
GAN900	Does anybody else find the whole "New Ovi stuff is coming Thursday!" thing completely hilarious?	23:11
Jaffa	GAN900: I'm channeling Nokia ;-)	23:11
GAN900	When was Ovi launched for Maemo?	23:11
Jaffa	Is this "new new new new new Ovi"?	23:12
lcuk	ofauchon, i hope you did not boot inbetween flash rootfs and emmc	23:12
mece_	GAN900, haha that was pretty funny.	23:12
GAN900	How long until we get paid apps, you think?	23:12
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mece_	GAN900, I did buy zen bound today though :)	23:12
GAN900	Jaffa, the PR1.2 Ovi, yeah.	23:12
ofauchon	lcuk, what's the problem if I did ?	23:12
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lcuk	if you did you just wiped out the /opt content put there on first boot after flashing	23:12
ofauchon	lcuk, I did 1/ Flash system 2/Flash eMMc /3 reboot	23:13
ofauchon	and many other things like enabling rd mode .. with no success	23:13
solrize	the openmoko phone seems to be pretty dead	23:14
lcuk	ofauchon, what caused this problem in the first place	23:14
DocScrutinizer	solrize: === Moko9-Beta2 === * Adds "AT+CSIM" (for swisscom) [and we didn't feel like protecting the SIM from user, for any security issues(instruction class 0xA0)] - see http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/calypso_moko_FW/all_version__CHANGELOG.txt	23:14
ofauchon	Don't know... I woke up, the phone was off . When I switched it on , it was rebooting	23:15
ofauchon	I may try to compile a framebuffer console kernel...	23:15
ofauchon	boring	23:15
DocScrutinizer	battery flat?	23:15
ofauchon	I charged the battery with another phone... it's 100%	23:16
* DocScrutinizer ponders waking up as well now		23:16
Kaadlajk	lauri: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-maemo-4.6/qmaemo5valuebutton.html	23:16
lcuk	only thing i can suggest if try once again with the reflashing specifically and then if that fails its down to nokia i guess	23:16
lauri	lcuk: I was almost there :P	23:17
lauri	thanks	23:17
solrize	DocScrutinizer, yeah, it looks difficult/impossible to buy those phones any more... and i'm still wondering what the security issue is or what those 0xa0 instructions do. maybe if i put the sim in some external device instead of another phone, the n900 can spoof it to its internal gsm modem?	23:17
lcuk	lauri, ?	23:17
lauri	lcuk: I was browsing Qt4-s Maemo specific features list	23:17
DocScrutinizer	solrize: nope for spoof on N900, and for sure you can for buying Freerunners	23:18
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: clas 0x0A is access to on sim authentication algorithm etc iirc	23:19
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: eh?	23:19
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: AT+CSIM class 0x0A commands	23:19
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: oops, sorry ETAB	23:20
flailingmonkey	howdy	23:20
DocScrutinizer	solrize: ^^^	23:20
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: why the hell are you talking me?	23:20
flailingmonkey	timeless: ping	23:20
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MarcusM	Heya guys.	23:22
solrize	DocScrutinizer, thanks. it looks like rSAP does something like what i want but only for incoming calls? outgoing needs one of those restricted 0xa0 commands?	23:22
lcuk	denmark won against cameroon	23:22
MarcusM	lcuk: weve won now?	23:22
MarcusM	didnt think the match was over	23:22
lcuk	yeah just	23:22
MarcusM	aha. brilliant, i guess	23:22
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lcuk	first ever danish win?	23:23
luke-jr	Danish can't possibly win.	23:24
MarcusM	well, in this wm, or what you call it	23:24
MarcusM	we lost against holland the 1st match	23:25
lcuk	luke-jr, sure they can, like anyone else in the world cup its about luck lol	23:25
luke-jr	oh; I guess since all WM suck quite a bit, it wouldn't take much for Danish to win there	23:25
luke-jr	it doesn't take much for a Window Manager to be decent, but somehow all I've seen screw it up	23:25
luke-jr	:/	23:25
luke-jr	what's this Danish one called?	23:25
DocScrutinizer	solrize: sorry that's beyond my knowledge of the issue	23:26
DocScrutinizer	solrize: at least ATM	23:26
MarcusM	luke-jr: wut? :p	23:26
luke-jr	...	23:27
DocScrutinizer	solrize: basically AT+CSIM is not related to either in- or outbound calls. It's about registration to the network and similar things	23:27
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trumee	Wifi Power Saving + g729= Crappy sip calls on N900	23:28
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: you're sure you're not talking bout wordcount (WC) ?	23:28
DocScrutinizer	trumee: not related to g729	23:29
trumee	i wonder whether there was any wlan power saving on N95. It works well with g729	23:29
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trumee	DocScrutinizer: dunno. ulaw behaves better here than g729.	23:29
solrize	DocScrutinizer, thanks. ok, forget about actual sim proxying for the moment, does the idea of using another phone as a remote UI for an n900 sound worthwhile?	23:29
DocScrutinizer	trumee: strange	23:29
luke-jr	trumee: WiFi power saving was always a bad joke	23:29
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trumee	luke-jr: are there any statistics on whether it makes a difference?	23:30
flailingmonkey	trumee: what wifi power setting	23:30
trumee	luke-jr: The warning message on disabling it is "terrifying".	23:30
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trumee	flailingmonkey: Wlan power saving under connections tab.	23:31
DocScrutinizer	solrize: don't ask me. I'm just aware of usecases like built-in phones in cars to share the SIM of the mobile and do a full proxy	23:31
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luke-jr	trumee: uh, personal experience of anyone who's tried to SSH to a PSM-enabled wifi client?	23:32
trumee	luke-jr: i do that all the time. never had any issue with this.	23:32
solrize	DocScrutinizer, yeah, that's what rsap is for, so your incoming calls can go to the car phone, but you can't make outgoing calls that way. i didn't even realize that car handsfree systems had their own gsm radio though, i thought they were just like headsets	23:32
flailingmonkey	trumee: i see it now.	23:32
DocScrutinizer	trumee: probably g711 simply has much higher bandwidth than g729 on WLAN, so the PSM doesn't kick in	23:32
trumee	DocScrutinizer: could be that.	23:33
SpeedEvil	trumee: It's lots	23:34
DocScrutinizer	solrize: there are both types. and for the one with GSM function (TX/RX) it should work for outbound calls as well as inbound	23:34
MarcusM	it really feels like the battery life has been improved since 1.2	23:34
SpeedEvil	trumee: It - without powersave - uses around 1/6th of the battery per hour - solely for wifi - with cpu idle, and backlight off	23:34
SpeedEvil	trumee: Wtih powersave on (and a supporting AP) it's more like 1/300th	23:35
trumee	SpeedEvil: hmm. that is a big difference. Any idea if N95 had power saving enabled?	23:35
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trumee	SpeedEvil:N95 does sip calls perfectly with battery life equal to N900	23:36
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SpeedEvil	luke-jr: With ssh - max powersaving mode - I get ~200-400ms interactive.	23:36
solrize	DocScrutinizer, hmm, well that should do everything i want then. the idea is to just leave the big n900 (or an even bigger successor that might be ipad sized) in my bag, and use a small symbian phone as a remote handset for it	23:36
trumee	SpeedEvil: What about max and intermediate power saving. is there a big difference between them?	23:37
SpeedEvil	not tried intermediat	23:37
trumee	Bug 10388 is the issue	23:37
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10388 Choppy audio in SIP conversation, WLAN power save problem?	23:38
trumee	I am forced to use N95 for sip calls over wifi. Shameful for a NIT!!!	23:38
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solrize	actually i have another idea which is kind of evil, which is to leave the sim plugged into a computer at home and connect to it over the internet from elsewhere	23:39
SpeedEvil	solrize: you can't normally do that - as the cell modem will not allow you to do that.	23:40
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SpeedEvil	Unless it supports the various remote SIM protocols.	23:40
solrize	right, but these things do support rsap, the mode for car phones	23:41
* Stskeeps ponders idly if he blew out the MBX part of his n8x0		23:41
SpeedEvil	yes - exactly.	23:42
GAN900	Stskeeps, seriously?	23:42
solrize	SpeedEvil, do you know where the gsm speech codec lives? ie can i just sent my own bit stream through the cell modem? either an arbitrary bit stream, or a gsm-coded voice stream that was made outside the phone (e.g. for a voice mail system)	23:43
luke-jr	Stskeeps: I was wondering that about my GPS for a while, a few months ago.	23:43
luke-jr	Stskeeps: turned out an update had re-enabled serial console, which kinda interfered ;)\	23:44
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mece_	jacekowski, ping?	23:48
jacekowski	pong	23:48
jacekowski	mece_:	23:49
dotblank	I have observed weird behavior with portrait auto rotation in qt4	23:49
DocScrutinizer	solrize: I know of no phone that supports SAP-client	23:49
mece_	jacekowski, would you mind terribly to test qlister 0.2-7 with russian input and see if everything works as it should?	23:49
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jacekowski	mece_: well, that will be hard	23:49
jacekowski	mece_: i have normal english n900	23:50
mece_	jacekowski, ok.	23:50
SpeedEvil	solrize: that will never ever wrk	23:50
SpeedEvil	solrize: basically:	23:50
SpeedEvil	solrize: The transmitted audio path looks like:	23:50
solrize	DocScrutinizer, it really seems annoying that the phones put obstacles to prevent people from writing these applications.. i thought nokia WANTED people to write interesting phone apps	23:51
mece_	jacekowski, nevermind then. I can write russian if I choose russian input, and it works, so I'll just have to go with that :) I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Just wanted to make sure.	23:51
alterego	So, just had a thought, can a truely open platform really bring in a horde of app developers when the whole point of our platform is openness and freesoftware?	23:51
jacekowski	alterego: not really	23:52
alterego	So far, obviously it's just really attracted, well, us ..	23:52
mece_	anyone with a russian n900 around? Or hebrew, or arabic, or chinese?	23:52
jacekowski	alterego: it's all about marketing	23:52
SpeedEvil	solrize: mic->signal processing ->GSM module audio in -> GSM encode -> radio -> radio errors ->GSM decode -> ISDN or other telco network -> GSM encode -> radio +errors -> GSM module RF in -> GSM decode -> speaker	23:52
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: in n900 it goes trough omap and pulseaudio	23:52
SpeedEvil	solrize: There are at least two codecs in the chain that you can't control, and additionally bit errors. So that never works	23:52
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: yes - that was the 'signal processing' step - it's largely irrelevant	23:53
DocScrutinizer	yep	23:53
jacekowski	what is he doing?	23:53
DocScrutinizer	AEC	23:53
DocScrutinizer	it seems	23:53
jacekowski	aec?	23:53
DocScrutinizer	Acoustic Echo Cancellation	23:54
solrize	SpeedEvil, thanks, yeah that's basically what i was asking. i can deal with the bit errors but it's annoying to mess up the sound with another layer of encode/decode	23:54
SpeedEvil	solrize: you can't.	23:54
SpeedEvil	solrize: You're missing the point.	23:54
SpeedEvil	solrize: There are already two or three other codecs that you have no control over.	23:54
jacekowski	sort of	23:54
SpeedEvil	solrize: And the presence of bit errors means those codecs act like encryption to non-voice signals.	23:54
jacekowski	these codes behave in a specific way	23:54
* lcuk was meant to be gone this w/e		23:54
SpeedEvil	They intentionally throw away non-voice like signals.	23:55
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: but you can abuse it to send your signal	23:55
solrize	right, that's what i mean. is that stuff inside the module though, or is there more stuff in the network also doing that?	23:55
satmd	not exactly encryption	23:55
jacekowski	at low bitrate	23:55
jacekowski	solrize: just module	23:55
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: yes, at a bitrate of maybe 10/s	23:55
mece_	it appears lcuk failed then...	23:55
SpeedEvil	solrize: Only the step up to the first 'radio' is in hte phone	23:55
DocScrutinizer	maybe even 100/s if you're good in designing such stuff	23:56
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lcuk	mece_, yup, i lost will to be awake this morning and fell back asleep	23:56
jacekowski	codes itself uses 9.6k	23:56
jacekowski	iirc	23:56
solrize	jacekowski, 13k	23:56
SpeedEvil	solrize: The rest is in the cell tower it's connected to, the far cell tower, the network between the tower, and maybe even the PSTN it's tunneling through	23:56
mece_	lcuk, ow..	23:56
jacekowski	so you can probably push 4-5k over it	23:56
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: You really can't.	23:56
jacekowski	i did that	23:57
jacekowski	over voip	23:57
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lcuk	ad now i have the most stinky headache ever and no desire to code or do anyfink actually	23:57
jacekowski	but using gsm codec	23:57
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: The codec intentionally throws away non voice-like signals.	23:57
jacekowski	but you can generate voice like signal	23:57
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: That is - talking of standard GSM voice channels	23:57
SpeedEvil	Sure.	23:57
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: no, you can't	23:57
jacekowski	ffs	23:57
jacekowski	don't tell me what i can't do	23:57
SpeedEvil	One _horribly_involved_ hack got 1300bits/second using a synthetic throat, driven by data, and basically a voice recogniser on the other end	23:58
djkrikke	Hi guys, I notice that when I'm in the inbox of a pop3 mail box, send myself an email using another computer, "send and receive" on the n900...it refreshes....but doesn't show any new mail in the list. So I get out the inbox, join it again, and there is my e-mail. Can someone try this as well, so I can possibly report this as a bug?	23:58
jacekowski	djkrikke: it's by design	23:58
djkrikke	I'm curious?	23:58
luke-jr	djkrikke: POP3 is long obsolete	23:58
CutMeOwnThroat	SpeedEvil, yes?	23:58
SpeedEvil	?	23:59
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: the highest bitrate you can possibly get thru GSM voiceband is someone reading a text loud, and far and typewriting it	23:59
SpeedEvil	CutMeOwnThroat:	23:59
solrize	i guess there's no way to have a gsm to gsm call without the demodulation by the pots network, but at least there's a sensible reason for that	23:59
CutMeOwnThroat	oh, you said synthetic throat... must have misheard	23:59
SpeedEvil	solrize: There is.	23:59
djkrikke	jacekowski, design?	23:59
SpeedEvil	solrize: It's called circuit switched data	23:59
djkrikke	luke-jr: That isn't the discussion :)	23:59
solrize	gprs?	23:59
SpeedEvil	solrize: And is fairly expensive, and not enabled for many/most peoples accounts	23:59

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