IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-06-11

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alteregojoker_89: still pretty unlikely you're going to find any here O_O00:07
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alteregoThough, I have actually used it myself ... :D00:07
MohammadAG51same, but i only made a restard app :P00:08
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joker_89but nobodoy use it?00:09
MohammadAG51nope, i switched to pygtk and pyQt00:09
MohammadAG51the latter was a big mistake00:09
crashanddiejoker_89: this channel is about maemo, nothing to do with s6000:09
crashanddieMohammadAG51: not a fan of pyqt?00:09
MohammadAG51crashanddie, the whole Qt thing annoys me00:10
MohammadAG51why do you think i'm sooo negative about MeeGo00:10
MohammadAG51crashanddie, tbh, I'd like that my apps actually output errors, instead of segfaulting (yes, pyQt apps segfault)00:11
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meceyeah why don't we get errors on pyqt apps?00:12
MohammadAG51cause Qt is C (or C++ not sure)00:13
meceI really like to work with pyqt, but the lack of information when things go pear-shaped is truly annoying00:13
mecewhat's gtk then?00:13
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MohammadAG51<mece> I really like to work with pyqt, but the lack of information when things go pear-shaped is truly annoying00:14
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meceif I have a symlink, s and that points to a file, f. What happens if f is overwritten with another f? The symlink stays put, right?00:19
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Wolfieafaik, the symlink stays even if the file is removed00:22
Wolfiehence, symbolic link00:22
Wolfiea hard link is another matter00:22
mece...yes :)00:22
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Wolfieanyways, night00:23
JaffaGTK HELP! If I have a GtkContainer with set_size_request_policy(...CHILDREN) and a GtkHBox underneath it; how can I stop the button at the right hand side of the HBox (and the HBox itself) growing if the first container (a treeview) isn't showing anything?00:23
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alteregoCan't believe how cheap N900's are going for now ..00:24
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alteregoIf I just waited a couple of months :/00:24
tripzerohow much?00:24
tripzerothe one i wanted sold for 405 on ebay00:24
tripzeroused though00:24
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alteregoYeah, about the same.00:24
alteregoIs that USD?00:25
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tripzeroJaffa, why gtk? qt is the new coolaid00:25
lbtJaffa: simple...
tripzeroalterego, yeah, usd00:25
Jaffatripzero: Because the app already exists.00:25
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tripzeroyou could probably rewrite it faster in qt than to make it work using gtk00:25
lbtJaffa: porting is a great way to learn Qt00:25
DocScrutinizer51wtf? 40 qud?00:26
lbtand it's surprisingly therapeutic00:26
mecejaffa, wait.. it's in the packing00:26
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alteregolbt: there's porting and then there's rewriting :P00:26
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Jaffalbt: Now's not the time for this port ;-)00:26
lbtah, good point... I used gtkmm00:26
* lbt sobs at the memory00:26
tripzerolbt: i bet you are still trying to clean it out of you?00:27
* lbt goes back to his happy place00:27
mecejaffa, start_pack(item, expand, fill, spacing)00:27
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mecejaffa you want the treeview to have both expand and fill set to 1 and the button to have both set to 0.00:28
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Jaffamece: Thanks - I was on the right lines, there's a level missing I think. Hang on.00:29
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mecejaffa you might need to put another box inside the hbox or something. I always end up with a bunch of hboxes and vboxes inside eachother.00:31
Jaffamece: Yeah, putting the HBox packed and not expanding into a new VBox seems to have done it. Although my button seems to be being constrained and truncated by some padding00:32
* DocScrutinizer51 burrps00:32
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MohammadAG51alterego, what's the dbus-send command that's needed to get the song's name?00:39
alteregoMohammadAG51: good question. Hang on :P00:40
MohammadAG51thanks :)00:40
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alteregoMohammadAG51: it looks complicated00:41
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer51, nothing there00:41
alteregoBasically, you find out the uri for the file, then you query the tracker plugin00:41
MohammadAG51that's what your plugin does?00:42
alteregoNo, I just listen for changes.00:42
alteregoEverytime the track changes, the metadata is sent out via a dbus signal00:42
MohammadAG51yeah saw that00:42
MohammadAG51in dbus-monitor00:42
ljsdofuynsdfufuhcehteh, were you the one saying you build your own cases?00:42
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alteregoMohammadAG51: I think, call this: method call sender=:1.29 ->
alteregon.gstrenderer serial=2329 path=/com/nokia/mafw/renderer/gstrenderer; interface=c00:43; member=get_status00:43
alteregoOh, god that was fail :)00:43
alteregoThat tells you the uri,00:43
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MohammadAG51thanks alterego00:45
alteregorough, but that looks like the basic idea.00:45
* crashanddie starts dancing while listening to Battles - Atlas (
alteregoMohammadAG51: what are you doing may I ask? :)00:45
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MohammadAG51alterego, just experimenting with some sh*t, not a project or something I'll think about releasing :P00:46
MohammadAG51alterego, promoted to -testing yet?00:46
alteregoMohammadAG51: yeah00:47
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alteregoMohammadAG51: do you think it's ready? :)00:47
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alteregoWell, vote! :D00:47
MohammadAG51that's what i'm doing lol00:48
alteregoHow many QA testers does it need to go to extras?00:48
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alteregoprobably take a while then, doesn't look like there's much interest :)00:48
pupnik  color vs power consumption oled vs tft00:49
alteregoI feel like I'm talking to myself on the t.m.o thread :D00:49
DocScrutinizer511 to test app, and 999 to keep running00:49
MohammadAG51alterego, my app stayed about a month in testing00:49
MohammadAG51till someone actually posted a "we need testers" thread00:49
alteregoWasn't there an auto promote?00:49
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lbtwho needs testing?00:49
alteregolbt: people that want there app in extras :P00:50
infobotalterego meant: lbt: people that want their app in extras :P00:50
alteregoawful :D00:50
lbtin the specific, not the generic00:50
MohammadAG51alterego, man your email's gonna get spammed :P00:50
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MohammadAG51alterego, request a bugtracker00:50
alteregoMohammadAG51: (cough) already does ...00:50
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lbtswap you?00:51
MohammadAG51seriously, switch to a bugtracker00:51
MohammadAG51alterego, vote your app up, it's sad but I did it00:51
alteregoI was going to ... :D00:52
* lbt proposes a mutual admiration and testing club00:52
lbtwe need 10 members...00:52
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benno2Hi, I read some time ago that Nokia sold about 100k N900 in 5 weeks, how many do you think were sold until now ? I see that the N900 is still launched in new countries like India and on many* sites the N900 is on the front page.  do you think 500k N900 might be realistic ?00:54
MohammadAG51hopefully not00:55
alteregoI think a lot more.00:55
lbtthere you go... all possibilities covered00:55
frosty`lol lbt00:55
jacekowskiMohammadAG51: ?00:55
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alteregoMohammadAG51: where do I vote it up?00:55
MohammadAG51jacekowski, from the looks of tmo, I really would like a smaller community00:55
lbtMohammadAG51: try MeeGo00:56
MohammadAG51alterego, go to the packages page and hit the testing armel one00:56
MohammadAG51lbt, fsck no00:56
lbtit's smaller :)00:56
alteregoAh, right, cool.00:56
MohammadAG51lbt, at the moment yes, in half a year...00:56
MohammadAG51well, at least whiners will move to MeeGo00:56
MohammadAG51I'll be a happy bastard00:56
lbtanyhow... who wants to start a test group?00:57
MohammadAG51isn't there aready one? :)00:57
alteregoI think we should close off some parts of the forum for real community members :)00:57
lbtMohammadAG51: is there?00:57
MohammadAG51alterego, was thinking the same00:57
alteregoAdd a limit (you can only post here if you've had an account since 2007)00:57
MohammadAG511000 thanks00:57
MohammadAG51or 1.5k00:57
lbtthat suggests pmo users...00:58
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alteregoWhen I read posts like: "290 crappy apps" ...00:58
MohammadAG51alterego, that's kinda lame :P00:58
alteregoIt makes me think, w .. t .. f ?!00:58
MohammadAG51i joined in 0900:58
MohammadAG51i always thought the N8x0 and 770 had a crappy OS00:59
MohammadAG51never read a wiki article about it00:59
MohammadAG51i was a bit blinded by Symbian00:59
alteregoI was kidding, about '07 thing. I'm sure there are some very active members who are worth their weight in gold that only hopped on for the N900 :P00:59
MohammadAG51then the N97 came and changed all that00:59
DocScrutinizer51damn, there's ome 30k on tmo00:59
* MohammadAG51 likes the N9701:00
alteregoSymbian does have an interesting distortion field surrounding it.01:00
DocScrutinizer51so you bet >500k01:00
MohammadAG51it made me hate symbian01:00
alteregoI've never realy liked it. I got the first Series 60, (7650)01:00
MohammadAG51i wish I had an N81001:00
MohammadAG51or N80001:00
alteregoI liked it, but it was so far ahead of it's time, but, well, I was sort of expecting more.01:00
alteregoI love my N810 :)01:00
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer51, so I could've been part of the community when it wasn't shit01:01
DocScrutinizer51i love both of them01:01
alteregoThough, compared with the N900, when I pick it up it kind of feels like a toy :D01:01
MohammadAG51well, tmo01:01
alteregotbh, before the N900, I actually never really used t.m.o01:01
alteregoIt was all just here really, in IRC01:01
MohammadAG51what about Itt?01:02
alteregoThis is where the more interesting things happen, but as the size increased, it's pretty hard to keep track of the information that goes through here.01:02
alteregoMohammadAG51: yeah, I mean ITT, never used it before the N900 and it changing to t.m.o01:02
mecein shellscripts, # for comments, right?01:03
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: do you run 0.2.0-1 or -1 of alarmed?01:03
alteregoBut people are getting pretty good at wikifying the interesting substance I think. Still though, I'm sure there's a lot of duplicated effort in the community and not enough, erm, mind sharing.01:03
alteregomece: yhes01:03
* DocScrutinizer51 is going to kick users a* thru k* to keep irc chan small enough01:03
SpeedEvil meceyes01:03
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: and what exactly happens when there's a problem with deleting?01:03
DocScrutinizer51Shapeshifter: latest01:03
meceok, thanks.01:03
SpeedEvilIncluding A through K?01:04
alteregoDocScrutinizer51: can you start from 'b' or should I change to capitals? :P01:04
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DocScrutinizer51Shapeshifter: bothing happens on hitting delete01:04
nidOsurely youll get to D then run into problems01:04
* mece is writing preinst and postrm scripts to backup and restore the file01:04
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: have you had the chance to run it on a CLI and look for error output?01:04
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alteregoptl: you about?01:05
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DocScrutinizer51Shapeshifter: not yet01:06
SpeedEvilIs there a syslog somewhere in the repos?01:09
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SpeedEvilah - I forgot the d.01:09
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alteregoWell, if there's anyone interested in doing some testing here:
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: -ng?01:12
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: no "about" in the menu :-S01:14
alteregoIs down?01:14
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: syslog-ng01:14
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: exactly01:14
Shapeshifterwhat menu, what "about"?01:14
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: exactly01:14
Shapeshifterwhy add unnecessary stuff01:15
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alteregoWell, this is annoying.01:15
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DocScrutinizeri could try a alarmed -V in shell01:15
alteregoOh, was my internet ..01:16
DocScrutinizerdoesn't pan out - no alarmed at all01:16
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: optification borked it?01:17
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DocScrutinizeralterego: no, it's been me, starting to kick a*01:18
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MohammadAG51he killed himself01:19
ShapeshifterI'm not sure if I have a symlink in my package. I guess I should make one or something. Or maybe py2deb should? I dunno. Anyway /opt/alarmed/ should work01:19
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DocScrutinizerdamn, i'm d*01:19
alteregoShapeshifter: permissions?01:19
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alteregoShapeshifter: I.E. is it executable?01:19
* Jaffa beds.01:19
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alteregoOh, wait, my bad, didn't actually read all of that :D01:20
DocScrutinizeralar<tab> doesn't pan out01:20
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: you mean without the path? Well as I said probably there's no symlink in /usr/bin/ or similar01:21
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: optification borked it?01:21
DocScrutinizerc&p from 10min ago01:21
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Shapeshifternothing is broken01:23
Shapeshiftereverything works01:23
ShapeshifterI don't understand what you're trying to say.01:23 error: no such option: -V01:23
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: ah - I found syslogd - which I have installed and working.01:24
Shapeshifterwhy would an app need to advertise it's own version. that's package-manager business.01:24
SpeedEvil(once I set it up to drop its logs in /home01:24
Shapeshifteror do you mean verbose?01:24
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: I'm not supposed to have /opt/alarmed/ in my $PATH01:24
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: yeah I know01:24
ShapeshifterI'm saying it probably never worked01:24
DocScrutinizerand -V should give me an idea about version01:24
DocScrutinizerjust saying01:25
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I disagree. Apps don't need version info inside the app. That would mean I'd need more build-periphery that does stuff automatically, or I'd need to update version numbers in two places. that's from the old times, when there was no package management. or on windows :>01:25
Shapeshifterwhere everything is in chaos.01:25
DocScrutinizeror if -V doesn't then at least --help should01:26
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Shapeshifterapt-info alarmed01:26
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Shapeshifterapt-cache info01:26
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DocScrutinizerpackage management? which package manegement??01:26
* DocScrutinizer *cough*01:27
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DocScrutinizerapt seems even unable to tell me the REPO a particular app is installed from01:27
MohammadAG51HAM can01:28
meceyay HAM!01:28
jperez26so...any idea when a viable test version of meego for n8x0 will be ready? >.>;;01:28
* DocScrutinizer heads off to warm up some wieners01:28
jperez26i'd love to get my hands on it for testing01:28
DocScrutinizer/join meego01:29
jperez26oh psh01:30
jperez26you're no fun doc >:/01:30
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: HAM takes 5 minutes just to start up. Couldn't bother less to try and find out about a version of a pkg this way01:30
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alteregoA picture of me with my N900, taken by someone with an N900, :D01:30
alteregoThat was timed impeccably.01:30
MohammadAG51alterego, No way the flag ye sent fer can be spied upon now. Yer lookin glass may be foggy or yer shipmates may be planning yer mutiny! Better watch yer back.01:31
MohammadAG51next time, link to a .jpg :)01:31
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alteregoOh, hahah, privacy settings.01:31
alteregoI was wondering what you were talking about for a moment.01:32
MohammadAG51(English (Pirate) language selected)01:32
alteregoIs that better?01:32
MohammadAG51oi! change to 5MP photos01:32
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: Nokia-N900:~# apt-cache show alarmed | grep Version01:33
ShapeshifterVersion: 0.2.0-201:33
mecedamn you modified filemanager! quit giving me sw_rst reboots!01:33
alteregoMohammadAG51: ?01:33
alteregoNot my camera :P01:33
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Funnyfaceam I the only one that keeps entering "Settings" since they removed the "More..." icon from the menu? :P01:33
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alteregoFunnyface: probably yeah :P01:33
meceFunnyface, I have to admit I did that a couple of times after upgrade01:33
alteregoFunnyface: no, I'ver heard a couple of people talking about that issue01:34
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: is there a way to use rpm?01:34
MohammadAG51Funnyface, nope, I just moved the settings icon, and made terminal where more is01:34
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: why would you want to do that?01:34
MohammadAG51so if I actually do it, I just run the app from terminal01:35
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: is rpm any better than apt? apt is such a pita.01:35
DocScrutinizerbecause I don't know a shit of apt01:35
MohammadAG51rpm sucks01:35
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: ah well. no clue. I had to learn apt as well. it's not that complicated01:35
Shapeshifteror rather, it is VERY complicated01:35
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Shapeshifterbut the 3 things you need everyday are not.01:35
* MohammadAG51 finds it quite easy01:35
DocScrutinizerI only know <cmd> -V01:35
Shapeshifterapt is a mess01:35
FunnyfaceI guess I haven't used my device enough since the upgrade :\01:36
Shapeshifterhorrible. but I've said that many times enough01:36
MohammadAG51it's much better than RPM tbh01:36
DocScrutinizerand <cmd> --help01:36
alteregoMohammadAG51: anyhow, I prefer the 3.5 widescreen images :P01:36
MohammadAG51rpm is soooo slow01:36
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Shapeshifterdunno, I don't know rpm, so that maybe true.01:36
tremnite all, sweet dreams01:36
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DocScrutinizerif both doesn't tell me about version of the program text loaded, then I can't be bothered to ask some 3rd app about it01:37
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: what third party app?01:37
Shapeshifterapt-cache is part of apt01:37
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mecedoes test -f return true on symlinks?01:38
DocScrutinizerI installed my system with flasher-tool01:38
DocScrutinizerwhat is apt?01:38
DocScrutinizeror, what is xterm, for that topic? alarmed has a GUI01:38
MohammadAG51just add a dpkg -l alarmed to your app01:39
meceerrm. could I get the output of ls -l /usr/lib/libhildonfm* on N900 pls?01:39
MohammadAG51make it show version number01:39
Shapeshifterimo the application doesn't need to advertise anything about it's state. If you'd want that, you'd have to add a little package manager to every single app you write that checks integrity, cares about versioning...01:39
MohammadAG51lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           20 Jun 10 13:22 /usr/lib/ ->
MohammadAG51-rw-r--r--    1 root     root       301476 Apr 15 18:55 /usr/lib/
Shapeshifteryou're just used to it from the old times01:40
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DocScrutinizer~ $ uname -a01:41
DocScrutinizerLinux Nokia-N900-02-8 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Wed Jun 2 18:49:44 IDT 2010 armv7l unknown01:41
DocScrutinizer~ $ less -V01:41
DocScrutinizerless 42901:41
DocScrutinizerCopyright (C) 1984-2008 Mark Nudelman01:41
meceMohammadAG51, Much obliged. Thank you.01:41
Shapeshifter*click on help -> about, see copyright notice, license, and credits and that you're not allowed to copy the program"01:41
DocScrutinizerdon't tell me about modern times, mate01:41
vldcnstcrashanddie: cool song01:41
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: yeah. less is from the old times01:41
Shapeshiftertoday you do: apt-cache show less01:42
DocScrutinizermaybe it's fashinable to be stupid... I just don't care01:42
ShapeshifterVersion: 429-2maemo101:42
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MohammadAG51i like this -V shit01:42
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: you get more useful info out of apt-cache than if every single app were to increment an internal counter. which of course gets forgotten and is just one more redundant step in packaging01:42
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: no, as I copied over the executable, and apt doesn't know a shit about it, or about my $PATH01:43
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: why do you do that.01:43
Shapeshifteruse apt01:43
DocScrutinizerNO I WON'T01:43
Shapeshifterwell then that's your problem :)01:43
DocScrutinizerand you won't tell me to do01:43
DocScrutinizerthat's YOUR problem, not mine01:43
Shapeshifterwhy is it?01:43
DocScrutinizerYOU asked ME about the version of the executable I used01:44
* DocScrutinizer get's pissed, slowly but inevitably01:44
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I was assuming that you got it from extras-devel. Do you think that assumption is not sane given that maemo 5 uses apt and alarmed is in extras-devel?01:44
DocScrutinizeryou don't even know which version of maemo I use here01:45
Shapeshifteragain, why would you go around placing stuff by hand instead of letting the package manager do it01:45
DocScrutinizerdamn you don't even know the device01:45
MohammadAG51it runs Mac OS X01:45
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: I'm on 1.1.1 here, with a custom kernel, and a messed up apt database01:47
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: that is unfortunate.01:47
DocScrutinizerand I copied back a partition image of /opt01:47
MohammadAG51you didn't upgrade to 1.2?01:48
DocScrutinizerso now tell me, is the version I report to you from apt really the one of the executable I used01:48
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: unlikely so01:48
DocScrutinizeryou CAN'T01:48
DocScrutinizerso don't tell me about modern fucking times, dude01:49
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: then again, you probably got the files from a tar.gz or deb labeled with a version :)01:49
Shapeshifterunusual circumstances01:49
crashanddiechill, children01:50
DocScrutinizeryou NEVER face 'usual circumstances' when troubleshooting01:50
DocScrutinizerWTF is wrong with a version number in --help?01:51
crashanddievldcnst: I heard a remixed version for some honda ad, and I just felt like I knew it (almost impossible to hear, maybe 3 seconds in the ad)01:52
crashanddievldcnst: was watching a stupid movie, but couldn't focus. The song kept popping back, till it hit me, I heard it yesterday while playing little big planet with some friends01:52
DocScrutinizertoo much hassle for the developer?01:52
MohammadAG51crashanddie, oh you have a PS3?01:53
crashanddieI have 301:53
MohammadAG51LBP is epic :D01:53
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: as I said, I'd need to increment it by hand in two files (build script/changes + in the code) or build around some magic that it gets incremented automatically when changed in the build script01:53
MohammadAG51crashanddie, what's your ID? :)01:53
crashanddieMohammadAG51: crashanddie_01:53
DocScrutinizerhmm, just do it then01:53
crashanddieMohammadAG51: do you have RDR?01:53
meceaw crap..01:54
DocScrutinizeryou see less can do it as well01:54
MohammadAG51Red Dead Redemption? nah, is it good?01:54
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vldcnstcrashanddie: the lyrics are also interesting.01:54
crashanddieyeah, pretty fun, if you like spaghetti westerns01:54
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I don't see the necessity.01:54
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: I'm more concerned with functionality than topping ans sprinkles.01:55
crashanddieMohammadAG51: played online for the first time today, heaps of fun. You just find some people in this huge desert, and the leader goes "ok, let's go and shoot some criminals", and as a gang you raid some other gang hideout01:55
Shapeshiftereach to his own01:55
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meceannoying. if I do an install of a package (p1) that is already installed (p2), it runs like this: p1 preinst, p2 postrm, p1 install.01:55
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: you can always fork ;)01:55
mecewhich results in my preinst magic is based on the already installed thing, but then the postrm is run before the actual thing is installed. damn und blast!01:56
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DocScrutinizer51you bet I'll do rather than share my thoughts to people who don't care and prefer to ask me meaningless quewtions, just to answer them with 'unusual circumstances. your system isn't maimtained the "modern" way'01:59
DocScrutinizer51if you're lazy then why at all share packages?02:00
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: you really want to keep going?02:01
ShapeshifterI think I've endured enough DocScrutiny for today, I'll rather go to sleep :>02:01
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crashanddielmao, watching a documentary about fraudulent landlords... Some landlord has a civil company, and the associates are himself, his wife, his two daughters and his son. Only problem, his daughters are twins born 4 years ago, and the boy is under a year old02:17
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asjcan a 4 year old not be stock holders in your country?02:18
crashanddiesure they can02:18
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crashanddiejust makes it quite hard for the assemblies. "Motion to give daddy a new car, Johnny boy vote yes or no dessert tonight"02:19
asjmaybe I'm just cynical, but that's only slightly more silly than what happens in companies all the time.  "Edward, we recommend you vote yes since they would greatly increase your quartly bonus"02:20
asjerr, s/they/that/02:20
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pigeonis there a way to add the usb net connection to the list of connections for things like auto update for things (e.g. modest)?02:35
pigeonusually they only show "WLAN" and "any connections"02:36
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jperez26meego channel seems useless.  no one is active ._.02:38
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SpeedEvilMaemo runs.
* vldcnst runs.02:47
* mece runs, screaming "ZOMBIECOWS! RUN!!!"02:48
mecedamn you ssu!02:49
meceor whatever it's called. Firmware02:49
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mecestupid ham.02:49
meceHAM tells me that it will not install that because it pokes at my precious firmware in a way that I'm not comfortable with02:50
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mece~curse hildon application manager02:51
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, hildon application manager !02:51
SpeedEvilpr1.2 you mean?02:51
mecewell yes.02:51
meceI aimed to discreetly replace one small library.02:51
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mecewell it works fine with dpkg, so it's not really that much of a problem.02:51
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meceit even makes a backup of the library, so it can restore it as it were when uninstalled.02:52
mecewhich it even does :)02:54
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meceI'm out. tata.03:04
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pupnik  useful benchmarklist for portable x86 cpus03:10
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flailingmonkeydamn, looks like I just missed mece03:24
nextimejust discovered that the n900 email client shoud support imap idle03:25
flailingmonkeywas this from change logs mentioning a reworking of imap idle? (spoiler: its not really imap idle)03:26
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nextimeflailingmonkey : no, it is from a blog describing nokia messaging service that use imap idle03:27
budfivenextime: i believe the imap idle implementation in libtinymail is highly inefficient so it's a battery hog and disabled03:27
nextimebudfive: mumbl03:27
nextimeso, how can i get email push feature on n900?03:28
povbotBug 3888: IMAP-IDLE not working03:28
budfiveyou can use an email proxy such as nokia messaging03:28
budfivealso I think the exchange is supposed to support it03:29
nextimebudfive : i'm escapingg from blackberry cause i'm a privacy fanatic and i DON'T want to useany third pary proxy for my email03:29
budfives/exchange/exchange client/03:29
infobotbudfive meant: also I think the exchange client is supposed to support it03:29
nextimeand also i don't use any microsoft technology, so, no exchange03:30
budfivenextime: I don't know of any good ways at this point. Seems like the RIGHT solution is to fix libtinymail03:30
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budfivenextime: read the comments on the bug in the link03:30
nextimei'm doing so03:31
SpeedEvilYou mean modest?03:31
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SpeedEvilmodest is open-source03:31
budfivemodest is a frontend to libtinymail03:31
budfivelibtinymail is the part that needs to support imap idle more correctly03:32
budfiveit's open source too, though. So could be done for sure03:32
budfivesomebody just needs to invest the time03:32
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SpeedEvilIf someone does, I will sponsor them one shiny carrot.03:32
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pigeonwhat's the diff between nokia messaging and ovi mail?03:34
budfivenokia messaging is an email proxy, ovi mail is a webmail service03:35
flailingmonkeyI think it is necessary to create an established procedure for "upgrading" packages that are part of PR/"Maemo 5" meta package03:35
budfiveovi mail gives you an email address, like gmail, hotmail, etc03:35
flailingmonkeythat is supported by HAM, specifically03:35
pigeoni'm now trying nokia messaging, funny thing though, when i use the sign up on the web, it says my phone already has the latest nokia messaging software installed, and i should just set it up on the phone.03:36
budfivenokia messaging checks your existing email account and alerts you in an intelligent way when messages are available03:36
pigeonbut then if i can't sign up, what do i set up on my phone? like address and password03:36
jaembudfive, is there FOSS server software that one could use in place of Nokia's proxy for that?03:36
budfivepigeon: it's supposed to show up in the list when you add new email accoutns03:36
jaemI don't like giving third-parties my e-mail credentials03:36
flailingmonkeyN900 can create account when you set it up on phone03:37
budfivepigeon: but it doesn't work for some people, since Nokia determines eligibility in some non-transparent manner03:37
flailingmonkeys/\$/ with Nokia Messaging/03:37
budfivepigeon: If they decided you're not eligible for some reason, "nokia messaging" doesn't appear in the list of new accounts03:37
flailingmonkeybah, no regexps03:37
pigeoni'm trying to create a new account in modest now03:37
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pigeonnow it asks me for my e-mail address and password03:38
flailingmonkeyI had it so that the entry was above the top of the list that was displayed, just had to scroll up03:38
pigeonthat would be my real e-mail address and password?03:38
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flailingmonkeyyeah, it wants the e-mail/pwd for the address you want to proxy. it uses that e-mail as your user name03:39
pigeonso NM's proxy talks imap to fetch e-mails?03:40
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pigeonnever mind, i should just read NM's faq on their website first ;)03:42
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flailingmonkeyyep, ya should :-p03:44
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pigeonso NM will have access to all my e-mails?03:44
SpeedEvilIf NM is fetching them for you, then yes.03:45
pigeonthought so03:45
SpeedEvilI recall some rather bogus terms in their T&Cs that gave them the right to - amongst other things - publically perform excerpts from your emails.03:45
pigeonand they'll have to store your e-mails somehow too then03:46
SpeedEvilHowever - I wasn't reading closely - check that I'm not making stuff up.03:46
pigeonyeah, i was thinking maybe i will not use NM for like my work e-mails, for example.03:46
pigeonreading the t&c now03:48
* nextime now goes to sleep, 2:47am here, but tomorrow will look more deeply on libtinything and will start to study the code to try to fix it in someway03:48
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pigeonfix imap folder subscription while you're there too then ;)03:49
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flailingmonkeystill, we need to empower community to be able to share updates outside PR releases03:57
SpeedEvilGet some hosting.03:57
flailingmonkeythey should also submit the patches too of course, but whats the point of scratching an itch when you have to wait for months to use your work03:57
SpeedEvilAdd it to the repository list03:57
flailingmonkeythe problem is, I really would prefer to be able to use HAM, and not require more hoop jumping for users03:58
flailingmonkeyand it seems to complain when you step on files associated with "Maemo 5" package :-p03:59
flailingmonkeylol, maybe have the install just run a script to do the dirty work03:59
SpeedEvilYou can add repositories to HAM04:00
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flailingmonkeyindeed, but it won't install a package that interferes with files in the "Maemo 5" package. Should also plan to handle future OTA PR upgrades gracefully04:07
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pigeoncan you enable those dial number sound when dialing a number in the phone app?04:11
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pigeonwouldn't you need modest running to get nokia messaging push?04:14
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MohammadAG51it should work in the background04:19
pigeonwhen you say background, you mean modest running in the background?04:19
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pigeoni don't have any modest process running now, and i just sent myself a test e-mail, there's no notification or anything yet.04:20
MohammadAG51tbh it isn't that good on hotmail04:20
MohammadAG51for gmail and ovi, it's instant04:20
pigeoni'm testing it with a gmail account04:21
MohammadAG51no idea then04:21
pigeonlet me start modest now then04:21
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pigeonah, hmm, maybe i know why04:23
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pigeonstill nothing.04:26
pigeonweird, i'm not getting any notification.04:29
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pigeoni'm guessing it's one of the options i've got which switched it off or something...04:34
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pigeonif i start modest, then go into the account under nokia messaging, the new mails are there.04:37
pigeonbut i'm just not getting any notifications.04:37
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pigeonah, the notification only works when i have the phone locked/screen down04:48
pigeonthat's not very obvious...04:49
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flailingmonkeymaybe it just works now?05:18
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pigeoni guess i could try reboot my phone too.05:25
pigeonbut for now, i have to lock the phone before i get a notification05:26
pigeonworks very well btw, nokia messaging + gmail05:26
pigeoni just need to somehow setup something so i can use NM with all of my other e-mail accounts05:26
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhany tmo users in the US?05:27
ljsdofuynsdfufuhcurious about what plan to get05:27
pigeonlike my personal home one requires ssh tunnel and etc.05:27
flailingmonkeynow that you have a NM account you can login to the website05:27
pigeongood point, thanks05:27
flailingmonkeyljsdofuynsdfufuh, I've found tmo associates are usually very interested by the N900 :-) in the stores atleast05:29
flailingmonkeyssh tunneling into your personal IMAP server? isn't that overkill, or is it more like a makeshift vpn05:30
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pigeonoh... rebooting did solve the problem...05:30
ljsdofuynsdfufuhflailingmonkey: so they'll help me get good deals if i bring it in?05:31
flailingmonkeyI've found that its unnecessary to have push e-mail, it mostly interrupts my work05:31
wazd_n900morning people :)05:31
pigeonflailingmonkey: heh05:31
flailingmonkeyljsdofuynsdfufuh, lol, I doubt it but I like people praising N900, our lady of hardware05:32
pigeonflailingmonkey: that's the whole point ;)05:32
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwell I just bought one yesterday05:32
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthe scale thinks I lost 10 pounds, but that is only because I weight myself with my wallet05:32
flailingmonkeysaving battery would be the only thing to move me to push e-mail05:33
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwhy is email separate from 'internet' on the plans05:34
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI feel marketing at work!05:34
flailingmonkeywazd_n900, what timezone now?05:34
wazd_n900cet+3 :)05:34
wazd_n9006:35 am in here05:34
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flailingmonkeyljsdofuynsdfufuh, i'd just ask them what the difference is05:36
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flailingmonkeyEDT-4, 22:36 for me05:36
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flailingmonkeywhat country?05:39
* SpeedEvil should go to sleep.05:43
* SpeedEvil gets pancake.05:43
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flailingmonkeyirc should indicate each users country/timezone, to promote understanding05:44
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: I'm on tmo in the US05:44
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: if you go contract-less, the voice plans are cheaper. Data is $10/mo if you tell them you have a featurephone. If you tell them you have an n900, it's $25/mo05:44
* SpeedEvil cheeses.05:45
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhbudfive, can they know what you have?05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwhat is a 'featurephone'?05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh10$/mo unlimited for data prepaid?05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthat is really good05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm not sure they've 3g prepaid05:48
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: featurephone is any old phone05:48
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: the data plans are exactly the same05:48
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: borrow and old non-smart phone, go in and get the cheap data plan05:49
SpeedEvil'Yes, I'm using 23Gb/mo with a nokia 3310 - so?'05:49
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI don't want to pay monthly because half way through the month I may be in another country05:49
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budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: this isn't prepaid. You still pay monthly, but you don't have a contract05:50
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budfiveSpeedEvil: they'd have to check to know that :)05:50
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: "even more plus" is what you want05:50
ljsdofuynsdfufuhso 60/mo05:51
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm looking at pay-as-you-go05:51
ljsdofuynsdfufuhmaybe the sidekick plan:
ProteousI pay $40 a month for 500 minutes and unlimted data for my n90005:53
ljsdofuynsdfufuh1$/day for unlimited sms and data?05:53
budfiveProteous: exactly what i do :)05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuhany sms?05:54
ProteousI don't really use it05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuhgoogle voice might be a solution05:54
flailingmonkeythey will be looking for people trying to abuse the prepaid plans more than the monthly plans05:54
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: $10/unlimited or $0.20 each05:54
Proteousbut I can, for  $0.20 a text05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuhso you guys pay monthly right?05:54
Proteousyes, monthly, it's no contract prepay05:55
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwell I don't want to be paying them when I'm in another country05:55
flailingmonkeythe good thing is that with no contract you can cancel any time, no fee05:55
Proteousbut your account goes away if you don't pay05:55
Proteousyou can't just skip out for 6 months then start it back up05:55
Proteouswell you can, you'll just have to buy the plan again when you start it back up and you'll get a new number05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuhokay, how do I skip out for 2mo?05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuhany way to do that?05:56
Proteousyou don't05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuhoh, I can't lose my number05:56
budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: sounds like you need to talk to tmobile :)05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuhokay, I was planning, during a trip across europe to just get a new sim for every country since it will be way cheaper with native providers instead of roaming......05:57
ljsdofuynsdfufuhis this not reasonable?05:58
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flailingmonkeyyes, prepaid can be very affordable06:00
flailingmonkeyat least in finland06:00
ljsdofuynsdfufuhhey, I might even visit finland06:00
Proteousin the US it can be if you only want a voice plan06:00
Proteousthe prepaid data offerings pretty much all suck06:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuhso how do I prevent spending on a US tmo plan when I'm out of the country?06:01
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Proteousexcept for fanegaling the tmobile plan like we were talking about06:01
Proteousljsdofuynsdfufuh: you seem to think that if you keep asking that somehow the reality of the situation is going to change06:01
Proteousspend the $80 to keep your plan active for 2 months06:02
Proteousthat is the solution06:02
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budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: if you're extra-cheap you can turn off the $10/mo data for when you're not there06:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm thinking about trying the sidekick plan06:03
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budfiveljsdofuynsdfufuh: link?06:04
ljsdofuynsdfufuhcan the provider tell what kind of phone you have?06:04
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simula$10/month for data?  what?06:04
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flailingmonkeyyeah, sidekick is a special case06:04
simuladang that's expensive06:05
simulai use a prepaid and rely on my wifi06:05
simulaless than $10/month06:05
ljsdofuynsdfufuhin the US?06:06
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhwhich plan is that?06:08
ljsdofuynsdfufuhonly data prepaid?06:08
simulaonly voice prepaid06:08
simulai rely on external wifi for my data06:08
simulathere are a couple open hotspots where i eat lunch, the only time i really use a connection06:09
ljsdofuynsdfufuhyeah, I'd like 3g06:09
ljsdofuynsdfufuhi thought I'd be able to get a sim for every country i visit to keep costs down06:09
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luke-jrsimula: prepaid monthly, or prepaid per minute? O.o06:10
luke-jrmy wife uses 70 hours in a month -.-06:10
simulaahhh, i use mine rarely... it was for a set number of minutes and it lasts a year06:11
simulai paid $100 for it06:12
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flailingmonkeyits quite amazing how much use a phone can get, even just with a feature phone06:13
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flailingmonkeywhy are most people on IRC in Europe...06:28
Proteousmost people in Europe are on IRC?06:29
Proteousor most people are on IRC servers located in Europe?06:29
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Proteousor most of the people who use irc are from Europe?06:30
Proteousisn't english fun06:30
flailingmonkeyvery fun is06:33
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flailingmonkeynew try, most people in #maemo seem to be from Europe06:35
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flailingmonkeys/#maemo/#maemo at this moment/06:35
infobotflailingmonkey meant: new try, most people in #maemo at this moment seem to be from Europe06:35
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derfSigh, Mappero is still unusably bad, I see.06:42
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flailingmonkeywhat does that one do?07:16
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flailingmonkeygnight, 0023 localtime07:24
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spritehello, is this the right place for troubleshooting a problem with my n900?07:26
spritemy N900 screen saver has started coming on during movies which is VERY annoying07:26
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ptlit is07:29
ptlduring movies --- which player are you using?07:29
spritethe default player 'movie player'07:30
ptlhave you tried using simple brightness applet?07:30
spriteptl: how do you mean? I've not installed anything except the new maemo kernel update recently.07:31
ptlI dunno, some people say this application help avoiding screen blanking at wrong times.07:31
infobotptl meant: I dunno, some people say this application helps avoiding screen blanking at wrong times.07:31
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spritewell i can turn the screensaver off. but obviously that's a pretty poor fix07:32
ptllet me see if I have this issue.07:33
* ptl starts playing a movie in his N900.07:33
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ptlso far, nothing, image still on07:35
ptland I'm using PR1.207:35
spritePR1.2? is that the default player?07:35
ptlno... lol07:35
ptlPR1.2 is the latest maemo update.07:35
ptlno issues here, default movie player is playing the flick correctly and not blanking the screen07:36
spritemy version is 10.2?07:36
spritemaemo 10.2010.1907:37
ptlthat's the one07:37
Maceri know i asked this before but does anybody know how i can add a fn key to the xterm toolbar so i can use f1 - f10?07:37
Maceri still havent found any info for it :(07:37
ptlMacer: I've written a tutorial for it, just a minute.07:37
Macerptl: awesome.. thanks so much07:38
Maceri want to use htop and mc07:38
Macerthey use f keys07:38
Macermc especially.. need it to manage files a little easier over ssh07:38
spriteptl: any idea how i can trouble shoot this problem. the backlight turns off exactly after 30 seconds (as set in settings).07:39
ptlI don't know the codes for the F<x> keys, though, but you might be able to google for that07:40
ptlyou can get the keysyms list here:
ptlsprite: I dunno, maybe you should post a message in to see if someone can help you.07:40
ptlF1 through 20     0x0100 through 0x0113     Fx keys are used for string mappings.07:41
ptlcool, it has the F<x> keys.07:41
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spriteLOL, i think i will have too. it's not doing it now07:41
Macerptl, i am actually trying to figure out a way to make it like ctrl on the special key toolbar07:43
Macerwhere Fn will work like ctrl does.. and stay locked down07:44
Macerand keeping it locked lets you press 1 through 0 for f1 through f1007:44
ptlControl_Lock     0x0a0207:44
Macerremind me to go on and request this as a default feature for xterm heh07:45
ptlShift_Lock     0x0a00     _Lock keys toggle the relevant modifier's default state; Caps_Lock is the exception as Caps is not a modifier07:45
ptlAltGr_Lock     0x0a01     AltRLock is a synonym07:45
ptlRead more:
Macerdont think altgr is what i am looking for.. but let me try it out07:46
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Macerno offense.. but the maemo theme is ugly as sin07:49
ptlI agree07:50
ptlI use iStyle light07:50
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Macerpipe is in the vkb07:56
Macerguess quicker access?07:56
Maceri dont see anything that lets me lock fn :(07:56
Macermaybe i can find some other way to do it07:57
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budfiveMacer: fyi, htop has mouse support08:03
budfiveMacer: you can click on the labels that say "f2: blah"08:03
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Macerbudfive: over ssh? ;)08:04
Macermc is more important08:04
budfiveMacer: you ssh from your phone and run htop on the client machine?08:05
budfivemight work. let me try08:05
Macernot really... but mc doesnt let you click.. i use mc on a remote box08:05
Maceri wonder if i can add a 2nd bar for f1-f1008:05
Macerthat may be the best solution even tho i dont want to lose the screen space08:06
Macerbut what can you do ? ;)08:06
Macerwould be nice to have maybe.. an option in xterm to make it pop up and go away08:06
Macerlike "enable function bar"08:07
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Macer"disable function bar" in the xterm menu08:07
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Macerfor now i think i will just add rename and move f keys for mc.. but that is a crappy quick fix and i dont have the time to mess with this for too long08:08
budfiveMacer: mouse works for mc too08:08
budfivejust tried it08:08
Macerbudfive: over ssh?08:09
budfiveMacer: it's a function of ncurses08:09
budfiveMacer: yes08:09
Macerlet me try it08:09
budfiveMacer: it's a function of ncurses08:09
Macerin screen?08:09
Macerwell.. that helps a ton budfive08:11
Macerbut i still need the f keys for screen08:11
budfiveMacer: ncurses is cool :)08:11
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Macermouse doesnt work in screen08:11
Macerbudfive: hehe.. yeah.. tbh didnt know it could do that08:11
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budfiveMacer: I've never really used mc. What do you use it for?08:12
budfiveMacer: any killer features?08:12
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Macernot really08:20
Macerit is just that renaming files and moving them with the term can be a bitch08:20
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Macerwell.. bbl.. thanks a lot for the help08:25
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pigeondoes anyone know if an imaps server with a self signed cert will work with nokia messaging?08:41
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pigeonhmm, ah:
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meceGood morning maemonians!09:08
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nas_goodmorning mece !09:26
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Stskeepsmorn tekojo09:43
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solrizeanyone know if the n900 can decode avchd 1080i in real time?09:49
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mecesolrize, I don't really know, but my guess is that no, it can't.09:50
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stondamy old Pentium 4 3.2ghz even can't do that, so go figure.09:51
meceI know nothing about the standard though, but anything with 1080 in the name is usually a bit miuch for omap309:51
solrizei thought maybe decoding takes less cycles than encoding09:52
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sandst1yep it does09:54
luke-jrstonda: P4 sucks though09:55
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stondawell that's for sure. :)09:55
stondabut gives a good measurement09:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuhanyone here use the sidekick plan from tmo (1$/day for unlimited data)?09:56
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhalso you guys recommend any cases for the n900?09:57
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm pretty sure cehteh was talking about building cases for it09:57
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm very interested if you'd like to pm me about the ones you've built09:57
cehtehljsdofuynsdfufuh: yes09:57
mecemy boss has a nice leathery one that is pretty sweet..09:57
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mececehteh, DUDE! That is soo sweet!09:58
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cehtehnext comes a bike holder :P09:59
tekojoStskeeps: morning, morning coffee raged ot of control again :)09:59
ljsdofuynsdfufuhbike holder?09:59
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cehtehclamp the n900 onto the bike handlebar10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuhoh wow10:01
cehtehshock and water proof10:01
sandst1solrize: here's a demo of a 720p MPEG-4 running on OMAP3 beagle board, that one has a bit more kick than n900 though :)10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI used to be a bike messenger in chicago and my plan was to do just that10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuhhow will you make it water proof?10:01
cehtehpossibly with DC from hub-dynamo :)10:01
solrizetx, maybe the next gen hardware can do 108010:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuhif you make more than one, then I might like to buy one off of you10:01
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cehtehactually i made 2, the frist one in the photo is a hasty prototype10:02
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solrizenice shells, i wonder why the phone makers don't include stuff like that10:02
ljsdofuynsdfufuhdo you not like any ones from companies like otterbox?10:03
solrizethe otter commuter cases have gotten nice reviews10:03
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cehtehbut there is a lot efforts put into this things, i dont make a business from that, counting the work-hours this thing should cost 50 Eur at least :P10:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthink they're like $3510:03
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cehtehdoes otterbox make a n900 case meanwhile?10:03
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solrizeyes they have a couple10:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuhyeah - so you think yours are a lot better than an otterbox for example10:03
solrizethe "commuter" is the good one apparently10:03
cehteha friend of me has a generic otterbox for a n810 but it looks bit ugly10:04
ljsdofuynsdfufuhnice, but don't you want to be able to use it?10:05
ljsdofuynsdfufuhlike check out maps and directions and such?10:05
meceoh my boss has this one:
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI might just go case-less10:06
mececase-less ftw!10:06
cehtehwell i think you have to make some compromises, for example when you leave the touchpad reachable that means a crash can damage the display because its unprotected10:06
mecealthough I do regret not using a screenprotector.10:06
cehtehi also bike at rainy days sometimes10:06
meceit's a bit late now though.10:06
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwhat happened mece?10:06
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cehtehscratches, what else :)10:07
mecewell nothing really, but it's rather scratched. I suppose I could get one before it gets more scratched, but I don't really feel like it.10:07
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhyeah, but from what?10:07
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meceI got one deep scratch that I got the first day I had it. dunno how it happened.10:07
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI just wont keep anything in my pocket with it10:07
cehtehthe touchscreen is plastic, not glass10:07
meceothers are tiny, but they are there.10:07
LynoureI got kind of lucky and PDAir stuff for my Palm Treo fits N900 quite prettily10:08
meceregular use. I use it constantly and don't have time to be gentle.10:08
cehtehmy screenprotector has one scratch at a side .. happy to have it :)10:08
meceI've got 4 small kids, so there's sand and dirt everywhere. I guess that's the main reason for the smaller scratches.10:08
ljsdofuynsdfufuhisn't it even less responsive in a screen protector?10:08
cehtehnot noticeable10:08
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Lynoure looks quite decent too10:09
cehtehdepends a bit on the brand of the screen protector10:09
meceI thought it would be, that's why i dint use one. but my friiends protector is just amazing. and VERY slick. better than without it even.10:09
cehtehthis rubbery things dont feel good10:09
cehtehthe stylus sinks in and you cant use it comfortably10:09
sandst1i've got that one and it's pretty much unnnoticeable10:10
cehtehLynoure: yeah that looks cool10:10
mecedamn now that you're talking about it, I think I'm gonna get one of those protectors.10:11
cehtehLynoure: if that would be available in january i wouldnt have build mine10:11
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mecemight stop my stylus and nails from getting stuck in my big scratch10:11
mecethe nokia CP-408 leather case thing has a nice lid on it that has soft fabric on the inside. pretty good protection against scratches. and it's not that expensive either.10:12
mecebut not as comfy as one that doesn't have a lid I suppose.10:12
meceit's a matter of taste I suppose.10:13
lostinmirkwood_[ANNOUNCE] Ansel-A: Digital Darkroom for N900 released!
Lynourecehteh: Building one's own stuff is way cooler, though.10:13
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cehtehbut in materials it costed more (or about the same maybe) plus a lot of labour10:14
mecelostinmirkwood_, wow. Looks awesome!10:14
lostinmirkwood_thanks guys, for all your help here on #maemo10:14
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhyes #maemo is great10:15
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhone of the reasons I got the phone actually10:15
mecelostinmirkwood_, is it in devel?10:15
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sandst1lostinmirkwood_: WOW10:16
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lostinmirkwood_mece yeah it is but i just submitted it to nokia's calling all innovators, so i also promoted it to testing.10:17
mecewhat the shit10:18
meceham says 0.8-110:18
meceaah need to update first.10:18
meceman I can't wait to test this!10:18
lostinmirkwood_ergh, why is that happening seems like everyone has 0.8-1 which was, let's say a dud release. v0.9-1 is the one promoted to testing.10:19
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solrize    here's the bluetooth headset i want ;)10:20
mecesolrize, it's such a new release and everyones lists aren't updated yet.10:20
solrizelostinmirkwood_, ansel-a looks great but is it unfeasible to run gimp or something like that on the n900?10:21
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solrizeit's written in python?  cool10:21
mecesolrize, gimp is very slow on N900. It works though. If ansel-a does what you need, you'll have a much nicer experience.10:22
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mecegimp via easy debian that is.10:22
solrizeone thing i wish gimp had was an easy way to put arrows into a picture10:22
lostinmirkwood_solrize it sure is and i have, it's just my contribution to the community, specifically for simple photo touchups not full blow gimp.10:23
solrizeyeah, to make 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ;)10:23
cehtehmy 'conversations' doesnt show any conversations since 1.2 update anymore wasnt there a bug or so?10:23
mecelostinmirkwood_, put a link to this page: on the announce post10:23
meceso you get some votes.10:23
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhyeah, if any of you guys find a waterproof case for the n900 that still allows you to use it - that would be sick10:24
solrizelostinmirkwood_, cool, i wish i could use it (i don't have an n900 for now)10:24
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lostinmirkwood_ah i will, put the link.10:24
solrizeljsdofuynsdfufuh, maybe you could just use a sealed pelican case and a bluetooth headset10:24
meceok., 0.9-1 comes up after a "refresh" in HAM10:25
lostinmirkwood_solrize what are you running? it's pyQt so it'll run on a n8xx i think10:25
Duckbootljsdofuynsdfufuh: Melt plastic round the N900 - Should be waterproof, but the usability part.....10:25
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhhey, any of you use VoIP via 3g?10:26
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh, does skype count?10:26
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI guess - why not?10:26
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meceljsdofuynsdfufuh, well then I do every now and then :)10:27
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meceljsdofuynsdfufuh, what about it?10:27
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhi might just go without voice if i can10:27
Stskeepsmorn andre__10:27
andre__heja Stskeeps10:27
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhdata is 1$/day unlimited and voice is 15cents/min10:27
Stskeepsandre__: how goes?10:27
meceoooh the eyecandu!10:27
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infobotmece meant: oooh the eyecandy!10:28
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andre__Stskeeps, just arrived in Berlin. Work for two hours, then LinuxTag :)10:30
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Stskeepsandre__: cool :)10:32
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mecethere's a method to find all files installed from a certain package, right?10:33
mecewith dpkg and whatnot10:33
Stskeepsdpkg -10:33
mecebig L ok.10:33
mececapital even10:34
mecenice. good way to check optification. thanks.10:34
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meceStskeeps, can make that show me the filesizes and such (by piping it to ls or something)10:39
Stskeepsxargs ls?10:39
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Macerdoes the web browser in 1.2 seem a little flakey to anybody else?10:44
Macerwhere it keeps randomly crashing?10:44
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MilhouseMacer: Can't say, I tend to use Opera more these days10:45
Macerusually it does it to me when i type in an address and it tries to pull up its version of the ff awesomebar10:45
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MacerMilhouse: microb isn't too bad... i wanted to try out chromium10:46
Maceri don't like google that much.. but chrome is great10:46
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MilhouseMacer: I find Opera starts more quickly - whenever I start MicroB from the bookmark screen it takes an age to load the first page (which is typically my list of bookmarks I have hosted on my own website... it's as if it's loading stuff into memory or reaaaaly slow to start resolving DNS)10:47
MilhouseMacer: I tried Chromium but it crashed way too much - barely worked.10:47
DuckbootMilhouse: Same behaviour here - Seems like MicroB have some DNS issues.10:48
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ohwhymemilhouse: u happen to have a solution so that pages dont show the mobile version of their website?10:48
DuckbootMilhouse: And the Speeddial in Opera is a killer feature.10:48
MilhouseMacer: I notice the new Safari has DNS prefetching - might be useful for MicroB :)10:48
Maceri get that problem with a few sites.. where it seems to take a while.. but i don't see how microb would have much to do with the dns10:48
Milhouseohwhyme: in which browser? I don't normally have problems with Opera or MicroB - some sites have duff detection though10:49
MilhouseDuckboot: agreed10:49
DuckbootMacer: Better to use Opera-servers for DNS-resolving - They might even have a local DNS-cache or a full blown DNS locally.10:49
MilhouseMacer: It only seems really slow to begin with, when loading the first page so may not be DNS but could be loading libraries or other stuff. In general though the DNS resolution doesn't seem to be lightning fast, maybe something that could be improved in future.10:50
DuckbootBUT - and there is a capital but - I don't use Opera for sensitive browsing (Like logged in sessions at work), since my stuff is cached on a Opera Server, and I have no control over it.10:51
Macernot if meego has anything to say about it!10:51
* Macer hides10:51
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MilhouseDuckboot: is it cached if you are NOT using Opera Turbo?10:51
Surfashouldn't be10:52
Surfaif we're not talking about opera mini10:52
DuckbootMilhouse: Mmm - I think so, but I'm not sure. And, Not sure == Not use it.10:52
MilhouseSurfa: That would suggest there is some control that Duckboot has whether his data is cached or not...10:52
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MilhouseDuckboot: I don't see why it would be cached if you are NOT using Turbo. Totally agree it would be when using Turbo.10:53
* lcuk presses Milhouse's turbo button10:53
* Milhouse remembers Turbo buttons on PCs... how cr@p they were :)10:54
Surfaturbo is only mode when opera mobile is interacting with opera servers10:54
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Surfaoterwise it should go directly10:54
MilhouseSurfa: Aye10:54
MilhouseI stopped using Turbo because the graphics where too heavily compressed10:55
lcukover 3g my images are compressed anyway afaik10:55
Milhouseby your ISP?10:55
mece~seen lostinmirkwood10:55
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Milhouseniiiice - who is it? mine is T-Mob UK, haven't noticed any obvious compression10:55
infobotlostinmirkwood is currently on #maemo (28m 10s), last said: '<alterego>, too bad seems that their installer for maemo has a bit of a bug.'.10:55
lcukMilhouse, o210:56
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Scelt - anyone solved this problem?10:57
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mecelostinmirkwood, apparently a wiser tester than me found a blocker for Ansel-A. Here are some instructions to fix it:
meceScelt, it says EDIT: Solved on #31...10:57
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SceltHow to install an older version of telepahty?10:59
SceltI'm not installing older version10:59
SceltI'm upgrading10:59
meceeehe ok.10:59
Sceltapt-get dist-upgrade10:59
Sceltfails with telepathy-extras and account-plugin-salut11:00
meceScelt, It was just the first thing I saw when I clicked your link.11:00
X-FadeWhy would you dist-upgrade?11:00
X-FadeThat is a nice way to set you up for a reflash.11:00
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SceltUsually dist-upgrade works just as well11:01
Sceltsuch as it has been working with debian and me since 200111:01
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X-FadeYes, but it has never been supported for Maemo.11:01
Sceltno surprise for me. I would use the application manager gui if it wasn't so freaking slow11:02
meceI did an apt-get install mp-fremantle-generic-pr on one of the updates. worked fine.11:02
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meceScelt, disable testing and devel for more speed.11:03
Sceltyeah, and actually not updating will speed it even more11:03
meceX-Fade, how does the community SSU thing work on diablo?11:03
mecescelt, what do you mean by that?11:04
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mecehee :D11:04
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meceit's annoying when one's sarcasm detector fails.11:04
SceltCan't disable devel and testing. I want to have the newest fmms changes immediately11:05
meceScelt, :)11:05
mecehey frals, I finally went for fmms, and after a bit of messing about I actually got it working. Very nice :D11:06
SceltX-Fade: application manager fails just as well as dist-upgrade. any other ideas?11:06
meceScelt, what failed on dist-upgrade?11:06
Sceltinstalling process, wait for details11:06
* mece waits for details11:06
Scelt/etc/init.d/avahi-daemon not found11:07
mecespooky. I hate it when my demons go missing.11:07
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meceScelt, how about apt-get install mp-fremantle-generic-pr11:08
Sceltthat file is there11:08
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Sceltbut for some reason install script wines about it11:08
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crashanddiedoes it cheese about it, too?11:09
Sceltno, only wine11:09
mecemm. I want wine and cheese11:09
SceltI want pus... let's let it be11:10
crashanddieScelt: oh, whine, sure.11:10
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Sceltcrashanddie: ya, got my typo but I thought you got it too so didn't care to fix11:10
crashanddieI did, that was called sarcasm.11:10
SceltI know11:10
Sceltbut hey11:11
Sceltmohammed the fixer11:11
Sceltall hail the MohammadAG5111:11
meceindeed :D11:11
Sceltnice fix I would say11:11
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X-Fadecrashanddie: People can take that the wrong way, please be careful with that.11:13
mecehey, in the symbols virtual keyboard, what character is second row leftmost?11:13
crashanddieX-Fade: and if they do, I'll make sure to clarify it with them11:13
Macermece: tab11:14
X-Fadecrashanddie: Just don't want to lose valuable contributors like Mohammad because of misunderstandings.11:14
hypothermiai cant find anything about chaning the windows manager.., killall hildon-home just reboot..11:14
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crashanddieX-Fade: you won't11:15
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meceMacer, does it say "tab" on it?11:16
hypothermiadoh, did you get what I asked?11:16
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SceltI think Mohammad is such a nice guy that he can take all the jokes and pranks about himself. But maybe Mohammad is a bit of a crossed the line -subject.11:16
SceltWait, what?11:16
meceMacer, The missing one:
viszmece, the button is blank11:16
viszbut there is one11:16
meceoh. wait. these are dependent on languages11:16
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simonconnection lost ... any other irc server i can use?11:18
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Macermece: on my vkb it is tab11:18
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Maceryour layout is different than mine11:19
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Macermicrob just crashed again11:22
Macerit is starting to bug the hell out of me11:23
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meceMacer, that's not mine, but anyway the layout depends on what language you are using.11:24
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Macermece: ah.. well.. i am using imperialistic US English11:27
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Macersoon the world shall be forced to use ounces and pounds!11:27
Macerim installing opera now11:28
Maceri will probably try out chromium later11:29
Macerim still holding out for a portrait media player11:30
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meceMacer, I think chromium was removed... or how was it?11:40
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meceanyway, who wanted to know about screenprotectors?11:40
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mecethis screenprotector actually improves the usability of the phone, because it's so slick and smooth.
jacekowskii have to get one11:44
jacekowskii already have 3 scratches11:44
jacekowskior i'll just drop it from 20m11:44
jacekowskiand use my insurance11:45
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meceboth are viable options.11:49
mecewell I ordered a bunch of those.11:49
DocScrutinizeror you get a new ts glass for ~60 bucks11:49
mecehey anyone at #LinuxTag?11:50
X-FadeOr you just don't care. Let's say you protect your screen for 2 years and then replace your phone. You then protected your screen for a paperweight? :)11:50
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X-FadeScreenprotectors really take away some of the sensitivity.11:51
DocScrutinizerI replace glass after 2 years, that's what my suggestion above was all about11:51
X-FadeI usually replace the device with a new generation one ;)11:52
meceX-Fade, I guess it depends on how careful you are. I wanted those protectors because they make the device better. My screen is a bit.. sticky without it.11:52
DocScrutinizerI know I'll hate next generation Nxxx11:52
meceAppiah, well not sticky, but not slick like glass.11:52
* lbt_ paid ~1.99 for 6 protectors... they're nice11:52
meceAppiah, and that protector feels slick like glass.11:52
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Appiahlbt_: which protector?11:53
lbt_it's in the thread .... an ebay special11:53
crashanddielook at the picture in that story11:53
mecealso didn't seem to affect the sensitivity11:53
crashanddieand then third or fourth paragraph down, it says "Goatse Security group"11:53
Appiah"The breach, first reported by the website Gawker on Wednesday, occurred when a group calling itself Goatse Security hacked into AT&T's"11:54
Appiahso people will google goatse11:54
Appiahand then go : WTF11:54
crashanddieAppiah: look at the picture11:55
Appiahcrashanddie: OH11:55
crashanddieAppiah: they already found the goatse picture11:55
AppiahNow I get it11:55
meceman this is comedy gold!11:55
Appiah<--- Was a bit slow11:55
crashanddie"FBI probing AT&T"11:55
mecesoo.... there are 4 reporters mentioned. which one is the funny one you think?11:59
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RST38hThe one with his head stuck in his own ass?12:00
RST38hOh, wait, that describes all four...12:01
crashanddieHahaha... I just had an idea for an application... (no, nothing to do with Goatse)12:03
Appiahawww =(12:03
crashanddieUse the accelerometer to detect when the N900 is lifted, then start playing this song:
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crashanddieAnd detect when the N900 reaches the parrabellum of the elevator, and play the "ding" sound.12:04
X-FadeThat should not be hard btw, n900fly already does the detection.12:05
lcukthat would get rather frustrating when you are just traveling12:05
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crashanddielcuk: I said app, not daemon :P12:05
crashanddieX-Fade: indeed12:05
crashanddieX-Fade: maybe jsut adapt the curves a bit, doubt that elevators will be as hard as throwing shit12:06
mecehey, freeciv one 2 votes away from extras...12:06
lcukcrashanddie, if its an app12:09
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lcukjust a widget with that tune would do to as X-Fade says wait for peak12:09
Appiahis there no way to login with openid on maemo talk?12:09
lcukcrashanddie, i also now want to watch morph12:10
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* MohammadAG51 slaps crashanddie 12:10
jacekowskiAppiah: openid sucks12:11
jacekowskiAppiah: and it's insecure12:11
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MohammadAG51Appiah, ty12:11
Appiahbut maemo talk provides you with openid12:11
Appiahbut you cant login with it , or others12:11
Appiahwhy is openID so insecure?12:11
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jacekowskibecause any bug in openid provider software and somebody gets access everywhere12:12
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jacekowskiany administrator of that site can get access everywhere12:12
Appiahso thats why you can get an openid at maemo talk but not use it at maemo talk?12:13
lcukjacekowski, is there a bug?12:13
jacekowskiit's insecure by design12:13
lcuki never asked that12:13
lcukis there a bug in the implementation12:14
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jacekowskii bet there is12:14
lcukhave people reviewed it and identified it12:14
jacekowskinobody just found it yet12:14
lcuki didnt ask that12:14
lcukyour dislike of openid then heads down FUD route12:14
jacekowskiwell, i had bad experiences with openid12:14
X-FadeOn this issue I have to agree with jacekowski though.12:15
lcukwhy didnt you document them or discuss with the openid specialists12:15
lcukwho might have agreed with you12:15
jacekowskibiggest polish openid provider had a lot of issues with their implementation12:16
Stskeepsi vote for x509 certificates12:16
AppiahWell I take it as a no , there is no way to use your OpenID to login to talk.maemo.org12:16
AppiahThank you12:16
jacekowskiand it ended up with them losing whole database12:16
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lcukX-Fade, so its not all roses!12:16
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X-Fadelcuk: No, you have to trust the people owning your openid provider.12:17
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lcukisnt the idea of give trust, take trust12:18
lcukyou expect people to trust :P12:18
jacekowskiX-Fade: do you trust me?12:18
jacekowskilcuk: or you12:18
X-Fadejacekowski: no.12:18
* MohammadAG51 sniggers12:19
MohammadAG51X-Fade, do you trust me?12:19
jacekowskionly thing that would be reasonably safe is centralised password storage12:19
X-FadeMohammadAG51: Of course not.12:19
jacekowskiso you send your encrypted passwords12:20
* MohammadAG51 slaps X-Fade 12:20
jacekowskiand it's stored somewhere12:20
jacekowskiif it's lost or something it's not a problem because it was encrypted12:20
crashanddieMohammadAG51: no, but X-Fade likes you. He slapped me on the wrist for kicking you, going the whole "boo, you may be losing us some good contributors if you keep doing that, y'all"12:20
jacekowskiand your browser then pulls these passwords - decrypts locally and logs in12:21
jacekowskimost of openid benefits12:21
jacekowskiwith less security problems12:21
MohammadAG51lol X-Fade don't worry about it (I'd settle for a temp +o though :P)12:21
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o MohammadAG5112:21
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*** MohammadAG51 sets mode: +b *!*slauwers@*Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie12:22
*** crashanddie was kicked by MohammadAG51 (cya)12:22
MohammadAG51nah, that's too much12:22
MohammadAG51he can unban himself though12:22
* MohammadAG51 waits for him to unban himself, otherwise i've pissed him off12:22
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crashanddieyou actually made me look up a command on chanserv, damn you.12:23
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MohammadAG51/cs unban #channelname12:23
MohammadAG51you could've PM'd me :P12:23
crashanddienext time I'll use recover :P12:24
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jacekowskiMohammadAG51: you could have requested permanent +o12:24
crashanddieno he couldn't have12:25
crashanddiewell, he could've requested it12:25
crashanddiebut after kicking me, he'll neva get it12:25
MohammadAG51why request something I won't get :P12:25
* MohammadAG51 should've used akick12:25
crashanddieMohammadAG51: won't work12:25
crashanddieMohammadAG51: even I don't have akick12:25
MohammadAG51someone said they could use it12:26
crashanddieyeah, but not regular ops12:26
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crashanddieprobably x-fade or GeneralAntilles12:26
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MohammadAG51it needs level 10 access on our server12:26
MohammadAG51not sure about IRCSeven12:26
crashanddieis that uber-paladin or just rogue?12:26
X-FadeI'm Founder, so ... ;)12:27
crashanddieyeah, but you're not really the founder12:27
crashanddieyou have founder status, we all know you're a fraud12:27
crashanddieit's just for admin purposes12:27
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X-FadeHeh, I went through the registration process. Which took 2 years :)12:27
X-FadeTalk about commitment :D12:27
crashanddieyou just idled, dude12:28
MohammadAG51/cs register took 2 years?12:28
crashanddieit's like "I"m the founder", and two years later "hey, still founder" "uh, sure", "here you go"12:28
X-FadeNo, registered org.12:28
MohammadAG51you own
crashanddiehe represents the admin officer for #maemo12:28
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MohammadAG51i know that12:28
X-FadeNo, but you have to register your org with freenode etc etc.12:28
MohammadAG51that's stupid lol12:29
MohammadAG51don't tell me it's for cloaks...12:29
crashanddieamongst other things12:29
crashanddieit used to be for services too.12:29
crashanddie(didn't have chanserv if not registered)12:29
crashanddiealso, you should be using ##whatever (double pound-sign) if it's not an official project channel12:30
marcusI have a little problem with creating a .deb package for my n900: Where should I put the resources (imgs and music) that my .exe should read?12:30
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crashanddieresources == weed?12:30
MohammadAG51that's an insult to me tbh12:30
crashanddieare thee high?12:30
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marcusToo much Windows lately.12:31
MohammadAG51/usr/share/pixmaps anyways12:31
crashanddieMohammadAG51: not /opt? :P12:31
marcusPlease accept my apologi :-)12:31
woglindehms dont find a site how to setup pr1-2 sdk12:31
crashanddiemarcus: I'll even accept your apology.12:31
MohammadAG51crashanddie, I think the whole folder was moved in 1.2 :)12:31
woglindeanyone can help me?12:31
Ikarusmarcus: Windows on the brain12:31
marcuscrashanddie: Please accept that as well.12:31
crashanddiewoglinde: that's an interesting name for a ship.12:31
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marcusMohammedAG51: But when I manually add the imgs to /opt/, they are deleted when I compile the .deb12:32
woglindecrashanddie what?12:32
crashanddieIkarus: insane in the membrane? Windows in the brain?12:32
lcukMohammadAG51, crashanddie yes, /usr/share/pixmaps is optified12:32
MohammadAG51marcus, debian/rules12:32
woglindecrashanddie sources.list would be enough12:32
crashanddiewoglinde: HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship.12:32
MohammadAG51lcuk, see? I know what was optified :P12:32
woglindeautotoptify isnt that good12:33
woglindecrashanddie ah yes right12:33
crashanddiewoglinde: that's why I said: interesting name for a ship, when you said < woglinde> hms dont find a site how to setup pr1-2 sdk12:33
woglindecrashanddie its something like *sigh* to12:33
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crashanddielcuk: cool12:33
crashanddielcuk: I kinda suspected it though, hence the smiley12:33
woglindebetter optify by hand12:34
marcusSo I should put the imgs in /usr/share/pixmaps, and then make the app read the images directly from /usr/share/pixmaps/APPNAME/pic1.jpeg12:34
lcukwoglinde, read up on maemo-optify-boottime, it tries to just take large whole folders12:35
MohammadAG51marcus, yeah12:35
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woglindeoh boottime okay12:35
lcukand has logic to try and prevent recursive loops, ie it will not touch a folder thats already got opt links inside afaik12:35
woglindeso now back to sources.list for pr1.212:35
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marcusMohammadAG51: Will give it a shot, and see if automaticly removes the imgs again, when compiling12:35
woglindeand I am happy12:35
MohammadAG51marcus, there's no such thing as automatic removal, you never added them to debian/rules12:36
MohammadAG51read the install: part in that file12:36
marcusAHA! :312:36
marcusinstall: build12:36
marcusdh_clean -k12:36
marcus# Add here commands to install the package into debian/fixedratepigs.12:36
marcus$(MAKE) INSTALL_ROOT="$(CURDIR)"/debian/fixedratepigs install12:36
marcusThat part?12:37
marcusOups, crap. Sorry for spam12:37
MohammadAG51add a cp12:37
marcusafter the command to install, I guess?12:37
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ghostcubehmm, who killed the site :P12:37
MohammadAG51cp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/usr/share/pixmaps/12:38
MohammadAG51after the make install12:38
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MohammadAG51also add usr/share/pixmaps in debian/dirs12:38
marcusThanks, I will give it a shot.12:38
MohammadAG51without the first /12:38
marcusLike this? $(MAKE) INSTALL_ROOT="$(CURDIR)"/debian/fixedratepigs install12:39
marcuscp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/usr/share/pixmaps/12:39
marcusOr should I have the $ in front.12:39
MohammadAG51replace the path/to/images/folder with the right path12:39
MohammadAG51oh wait12:40
MohammadAG51 cp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/fixedratepigs/usr/share/pixmaps/12:40
MohammadAG51now it's right :P12:40
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: you spammer! moinmoin12:41
woglindecommon only the sources.list12:41
* MohammadAG51 kicks DocScrutinizer 12:41
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DocScrutinizerghostcube: meee12:42
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ghostcubeDocScrutinizer: hmmm i would have bet 50 bucks if you dont have told mne now12:42
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marcusMohammadAG51: So the place where I copy the files from, should be on my local machine, and then the rules part, automaticly copy them to my debian pkg, is that correct?12:43
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MohammadAG51$(CURDIR) is where dpkg-buildpackage is started from12:43
marcusAha. So it should be somewhere in my "uncompiled" package.12:44
woglindehm hm12:44
woglindeokay then you will get not a new navit package12:44
marcusMohammadAG51: Should pixmaps be a complete mess, or should I create a folder within pixmaps?12:45
MohammadAG51as you wish :P12:46
MohammadAG51i'd say make a folder though12:46
marcusI'll see what happens o.o12:47
Appiahi bet12:47
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achipaokay, who killed the repos ? Not me again I hope...12:50
X-Fadeachipa: ?12:50
X-FadeJust installing mypaint from extras, works for me?12:51
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achipaServer error: Failed to load component net.nehmer.static: Component not in manifest list.12:51
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Appiahworks fine12:52
X-Fadeachipa: reload?12:52
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achipahm, I swear I pressed reload 3 times previously and it came back with that error...12:53
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X-Fadeachipa: Sure :)12:53
achipano, seriously, the error page even has a time stamp12:53
X-Fadeachipa: Yes, I flushed cache on that server ;)12:53
achipaah... ok...12:54
woglindehm okay12:54
woglindeits all automagicly now12:54
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achipagives me an empty page, too13:15
achipayes, I pressed reload repeatedly :)13:15
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ghostcubeachipa: DocScrutinizer killd the server :P13:18
achipaghostcube: how ? did he post a news that PR1.3 is out ?13:19
SpeedEvilThe next release is PRsqrt(2)13:19
SpeedEvilThey weren't rational about the numbering.13:19
ghostcubePRpi o.O13:19
* satmd still waits for a fix on the icq account13:20
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DocScrutinizerachipa: I uploaded the definition of recursion13:20
ghostcubewoah, the one steve jobs hides under his bed?13:21
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DocScrutinizerand pointed to it with a selfrefering symlink13:21
satmdwoa, those are evil!13:21
infobotTo understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. see ~recursion13:21
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DocScrutinizerthen, when the load hit the roof, I started tracing network traffic on the servers to my local console13:24
DocScrutinizerto see what's wrong... :-S13:24
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DocScrutinizerstill trying to analyze the logs :-P13:25
ghostcubeDocScrutinizer: bad ass chinese hackaaas13:25
* satmd resortet to iptables -A INPUT -m geoip --geoip-src CN -j DROP a month ago13:25
satmddon't like it, but nothing helped13:26
satmdt suffix = german past tense :P13:26
satmdtypical german typo13:26
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: don't spoil his excellent german grammar please ;-P13:27
DocScrutinizermost do it wrong here13:27
crashanddieoh, you mean "you had to resort to"13:27
* satmd takes notes13:27
satmd13 years of school english doesn't make perfect13:27
satmdbut chat sure does :D13:27
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SpeedEvilWhere ar eyou from?13:28
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: it's not chat13:28
jacekowskinot you13:28
jacekowskisatmd: it's not a chat13:28
jacekowskisatmd: it's IRC13:28
satmdfun fact: been working on unreal and inspircd and being that is just lol13:29
mecebäääck! What is up maemonians?13:29
SpeedEvilNot much.13:30
SpeedEvilPR1.2 was released.13:30
SpeedEvilAlso - there is now a phone in the N*** range.13:31
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meceSpeedEvil, the mythical N900?13:32
meceis there a video of the linuxtag meego/maemo stuff?13:33
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meceok.. hopefully some of it will appear here: later.13:41
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achipaoooh, what's this ? 'Remote Compiler allows you to push the compilation to an external Nokia Server'13:44
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BCMMachipa: is that something like distcc?13:50
meceachipa, sounds sweet! Where is this?13:50
achipaBCMM: dunno, just installed the plugin, still trying to find out what exactly it does and how :)13:51
achipanokia qt sdk, start updater and switch over to components13:51
meceachipa, is there a new version out?13:51
achipaummm, the release candidate from yesterday ?13:51
meceI haven't been following.13:52
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meceKhertan, ping13:54
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mece~seen khertan13:54
infobotkhertan <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 36m 25s ago, saying: 'bye'.13:54
mece~seen khertan_13:54
infobotkhertan_ <~d4eabb96@gateway/web/freenode/x-xlpumktyfckxtdiz> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 7d 20h 19m 17s ago, saying: 's/it/he'.13:54
mecegrr what is the nick he uses?13:55
ghostcubeachipa: something like launchpad eh?13:57
achipai guess... don't know how that fits OBS plans...13:58
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jacekowskiwould it be ok if i would host chromium in my own repository, and then post a link to it on tmo or somewhere?14:20
RST38hYes, it would be ok, until your provider receives a takedown notice14:25
SpeedEvilWhich you can then inform them to ignore14:25
RST38hThen, there are several possible ways the events may develop14:25
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SpeedEvilThe way your provider should deal with it is - they get takedown notice - they may takedown your stuff - you state that it's not infringing, and it gets put back up14:26
SpeedEvilOr just teach HAM about bittorrent.14:26
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SpeedEvilIs it me, or is every edit link on the wiki dead?14:36
SpeedEvilFatal error:  Call to undefined function makeTitleSafe() in /usr/share/mediawiki/includes/Revision.php  on line 28114:36
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SpeedEvildneary: - were you poking at this a couple of nights ago?14:38
dnearySpeedEvil, Have I killed wiki edits?14:38
SpeedEvilIt was working after you had done stuff.14:39
SpeedEvilIt's certainly not been broken since then14:39
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dnearyWorking now?14:39
SpeedEvilSeems to be14:39
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mecethinking on putting libhildonfm2-community in extras-devel. Any objections?14:41
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* SpeedEvil objects!14:44
SpeedEvil(not really)14:44
SpeedEvilthis is the file manager/.14:44
SpeedEvilPlanning on fixes?14:44
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meceSpeedEvil, well I have done the extension displaying thing.14:44
SpeedEvilI've been using cuteexplorer, which is OK14:44
lcukmece - extension displaying thing?14:45
meceSpeedEvil, yeah, but this one affects the filepicker dialogs too.14:45
mecelcuk, well filemanager and filepicker doesnt display extensions. so I fixed that.14:45
lcukdo you want to file a bug and include a patch?14:45
SpeedEvilModule Size Used by pn-pep 12992 0 g-nokia 30504 6 vfat 9600 1 [ Module  source] fat 43420 1 vfat [ fat  source] sd-mod 20372 0 scsi-mod 82016 1 sd_mod iphb 3300 1 [ sd-mod  source] rfcomm 33620 14 [
mecelcuk, it's already a wontfix so I don't think they want it into upstream14:46
meceor whatever it's called, the official stuff.14:46
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SpeedEvilDid I really paste all that?14:46
lcukif its a wontfix and you fixed it14:46
mecehaha LOL14:46
mecelcuk, but they want it the crappy way. It's a supereasy fix, also for nokia.14:47
lcuksure mece :)14:47
mecelcuk, but they don't want it. hence the "community" edition. Besides you'd have to wait for pr1.3 to get it.14:47
SpeedEvilWon'tfixes are also improperly used for invalid14:47
SpeedEvil'conforms to spec' should be invalid14:47
lcukmece "they"14:47
lcuki think its great you are hacking on it14:48
lcukif therers a patch there for something lots of people want then.. ?14:48
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lcukmece, please submit it as a patch on the bug report14:49
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mecelcuk, I don't know how to do it.14:49
meceit's bug #43014:50
povbotBug Show and edit filename extensions14:50
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mecelcuk, I don't know how to create a patch I mean.14:50
lcukok mece :)14:51
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lcukdo you have a git14:51
lcukbecause you should be able to ask git to give you the patch between the official version and yours14:52
mecelcuk, nice.14:52
lcukand add that as an attachment onto the bug report14:52
lcukit shows you have supplied a fix and it shows which versions its on :)14:53
mecewell i've modified the packaging alot right now, but I can do the code mods on the original.14:53
lcukyes, please do :)14:53
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mecelcuk, should I clone the official git, or is it enough to dl the tarball, create git and then mod and then diff?14:53
lcukmece - git itself holds all its info but the tarball does not14:54
mecelcuk, so where do I find it?14:54
lcukthe tarball is a snapshot, if you clone the repository14:54
lcukit downloads the files and all the history14:55
mecelcuk, yeah. but where is the repository?14:55
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mecefor this: libhildonfm_2.28.18+0m514:55
lcukoh crap i thought it was on gitorious did you just apt-get source it14:56
mecelcuk, it might be. I actually just dl:d the tarball from repository.maemo.org14:56
lcukright mece, i see14:57
lcukjust turn the original 2.28.18 into a git repository and then make your changes ontop14:58
mecelcuk, will do.14:58
lcuki forgot hildon-fm isnt directly on gitorious14:58
* lcuk is used to many of these components being there14:58
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meceok hold on..14:59
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mecelcuk, do I want git root in asdf/libhildonfm-2.28.18+0m5/ or in asdf/15:01
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meceprobly the first option.15:01
melmothanybody succeeded in installing  on a ubuntu 10.04 ?15:01
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melmotheach time i try to install a maemo sdk, i need to restart 4 times before it works.... some things never change :-(15:01
melmothnow, with the new graphic thingy... things just fail, and leave me with a scratchbox half installed.15:02
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alteregoi've always installed manually, and in a vm.15:04
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melmothi always do it on a vm too.15:04
DocScrutinizervm in a vm in a vm15:05
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe sb isn't exactly a vm15:05
alteregoi've always installed manually, and in a vm.15:06
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melmothwell... I ll install it another day...15:07
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mecelcuk, ok, mods done. What do I do now?15:08
lcukright mece you said theres a bug report thats been wontfixed15:09
povbotBug 430: Show and edit filename extensions15:10
mecelcuk, I havent gotten the "patch" data yet. should I first commit the changes? I commited the original before doing anything.15:10
lcuki think "git diff" will show you the patch15:11
meceafter I've committed it i guess?15:11
meceoh.. just git diff without committing works..15:12
lcukno need actually, the git diff will compare whats there now15:12
lcukwith any prior commits15:12
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mece ok. then what? do I simply pipe git diff to something or what?15:12
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mecelcuk, here is the diff:
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dnearyOK - things are supposed to be working now :)15:16
dnearySorry for the disruption with the wiki15:16
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Khertan_HomeHi !15:17
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KhertanHi again :)15:17
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Khertan <<< seems features creeped ... far from : "Keep It Simple and Smart"15:18
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GeneralAntillesIs there anything less professional than diagrams with spelling "errors"?15:19
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meceKhertan, I made a fix for the filename extension for file picker dialog and file manager? You still need that?15:19
lcukmece, it would be great if you would add that text to a patch attachment on the bug.  make notes about it and explain what it does and does not do15:19
GeneralAntillesWhy is that now the hallmark of open source diagrams and presentations?15:19
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mecelcuk, which text? the comments in the file?15:20
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lcukyes, the file generated when you piped git diff15:20
Khertanmece, oh ... yes could be interesting ... but how did you do ? patching the header ?15:20
meceKhertan, no modified libhildonfm2 source. Made a community package that replaces the lib file and even backs up the original :)15:21
lcukKhertan, could you discuss with mece about making a gitorious account perhaps, so he can make a branch on gitorious15:21
mecelcuk, I could make it on garage too. i have a gitorious account.15:21
meceanyway, how do I submit the patch to the bug then?15:22
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alteregohas anyone looked at building the fremantal ui from git? i was going to attempt building some of the elements like the home screen.15:22
lcukmece on the bug 430 page15:23
povbotBug Show and edit filename extensions15:23
lcukAttachment  Type  Creator  Created  Size  Actions15:23
lcukCreate a New Attachment (proposed patch, testcase, etc.) View All15:23
mecelcuk, ok but what do the patch look like?15:23
lcukthe same thing you pastebinned15:24
mecelcuk, as a file?15:24
lcukyeah, i normally do something like15:24
lcukgit diff >bug_430_proposed_fix.patch15:24
meceok so if I do git .. right :D that15:25
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* GeneralAntilles finds the comments here utterly bizarre.
lcukjust make sure in the comment you make, you make notes about the version you based it on and what mods it makes and its scope etc15:25
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lcukmece, thanks for your hacking btw \o15:26
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alteregoGeneralAntilles: the whole of maemo as far as community has become somewhat of a twilight zone :P15:27
mecelcuk, like which files are modified and what they do?15:27
GeneralAntillesalterego, the A.T. / silpol comment I must be misreading.15:27
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GeneralAntillesBecause it sounds like an attack on Texrat.15:27
GeneralAntillesclaiming he's hiding anonymity is . . . interestingy.15:28
lcukmece, the file list is done, its more how this effects what is seen and stuff15:28
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i read it as the people on hiding behind anonymity15:28
Stskeepsnot texrat15:28
GAN900Stskeeps, ah.15:29
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alteregoGAN900: i don't think he's a Nokian tbh.15:32
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GAN900alterego, dunno15:33
GAN900Blog looks fairly authentic.15:33
Arkenoisp, linux flash is updated to fix security bug. ours is not.15:33
alteregohe sounds shock ingly like abill_uk ;) but then all the general negativity and slightly flamy comments seem to all sound like one whinging little bitchy teen :D15:33
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Stskeepswhat if abill_uk -was- a nokia employee.. ;p15:33
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psycho_oreoswhich might explain why red pill mode was eventually removed ;)15:34
GAN900Song on the radio this morning is the same song it was as it was when I got out last night playing at almost the same spot.15:34
* RST38h moos evilly and asks for a bloody sacrifice15:34
alteregoStskeeps: it's always a possibility, as he did claim to have "inside" knowledge of the leaked firmware ..15:34
RST38hGAN900: Sure it is not in the CD player mode? =)15:34
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GAN900RST38h, quite15:35
alteregoStill, he sounds like a reckless moron, and not the kind of person zi'd expect anyone to employ as he sounds like an idiot kid :/15:35
mecelcuk how about this:
mecelcuk as a comment. I want to be politically correct here and not annoying.15:36
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lcuksounds reasonable mece, but thats got feature creep over it :p15:37
mecelcuk, how would you put it?15:37
mecelcuk, I suck at this kind of thing.15:38
lcukmece, dont fret :) your description is good15:38
mecelcuk, ok fine. I'm posting it.15:38
lcuki just wonder why the fremantle bug itself15:38
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lcukgot assigned as clone of 43015:38
lcukwhich is clearly old old maemo15:38
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mecelcuk, yeah I was fascinated by the low number there :D15:39
MohammadAG511:20 left till the WC starts :)15:39
lcukme too, its quite an interesting one, i like the idea15:39
lcukmece, submit it on 430 :D15:40
RST38hbug #43015:40
povbotBug Show and edit filename extensions15:40
lcukits clearly right to have been on 9525 but its amusing at same time15:40
lcukbug 952515:40
povbotBug Unable to distinguish files in File Manager15:40
alteregoI want to start building harmattan components on top of the MeeGo code drop15:41
meceoh well I posted.15:41
alteregonot sure if I can be bothered though.15:41
RST38hlcuk: Well, this will definitely be marked as "enhancement" with ETA set to "never"15:41
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meceanyway there is my magical replacement package for those that want it right fn now :)15:42
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lcukRST38h, the code now exists. the right thing to do is to assign it against a bug.15:42
RST38hIt almost feels like Maemo Devices and Lada Cars share the same business processes15:42
lcukmece :) thanks15:43
RST38hlcuk: That has also been done before (see Maemo4 screen rotation, xterm patches). It makes no significant difference.15:43
SpeedEvilIt's good practice.15:45
SpeedEvilIt can be used as ammo in principle.15:45
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Khertanlcuk, and it there is other duplicate of #430 which was closed for won't fix15:48
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crashanddielcuk: you're going to like this:
lcukcrashanddie, ive seen it i believe15:50
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meceKhertan, here:
meceand everyone else that want the filemanager fix thing.15:52
mecegood luck :D15:52
meceI'm out. ta.15:52
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KhertanYou can't install this from HAM  <<< ah ... could not be use so for iser15:53
KhertanYou can't install this from HAM  <<< ah ... could not be use so for user15:53
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Khertanbut thx for the Patch mece15:54
Khertanat least i ll use it personnaly :)15:54
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GAN900alterego, yeah, after some of my encounters with MeeGo Devices people. . . . :P15:59
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* GAN900 would really like to push that discussion to somewhere higher profile.16:06
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alteregoheh, you would be the one to know :)16:08
alteregoI need to find a freakin' job, I'm so bored.16:08
* Khertan didn't understand this discussion ...16:08
alteregoI also need to come up with another integration idea for Maemo/N90016:09
GAN900Khertan, Texrat's blog post about Nokia's idiocy.16:09
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Khertanah ... ok :)16:10
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Khertani ve put a comment on it :)16:10
alteregoalsol, any of you guys fancy testing me app to vote it into extras :)16:10
alteregoneed 8 more!16:10
b-man17sure, i'll vote :)16:10
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Khertanthis war, t.m.o whine ... make me lost most of my interest in the community16:10
GAN900Khertan, it's Nokia that killing my enthusiasm16:11
* b-man avoids tmo as much as he can16:11
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alteregoHas anyone done a brainstorm on dev only are of tmo?16:11
Khertanyep i consider we are still fighting again some "closed" nokia decision16:11
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GAN900Talk whining is simply a product of Nokia's anti-community attitudes and policies.16:11
KhertanGAN900, yep nokia is the first reason16:12
Surfai must admit that t.m.o is one of the most disgusting forums I've ever seen16:12
Khertantalk is resulting of the first ...16:12
GAN900alterego, define "dev"16:12
alteregoGAN900: well, there is more to it that that.16:12
GAN900Surfa, you don't get out much, do you? :P16:12
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alteregoGAN900: community developer, not nessassarily software :D16:12
SurfaGAN900, going out and discussing on forums are related how? :)16:12
Khertanbut i was expected more a community of people creating turn around .. than waiting and whining16:12
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b-manmoderation on tmo seems short-handed16:13
GAN900alterego, "contributor"16:13
alteregoSeems a bit lax.16:13
GAN900Surfa, in-context16:13
infobotSince Fri Jun 11 13:08:26 2010, there have been 0 modifications, 0 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 0 commands.  I have been awake for 4m 55s this session, and currently reference 117070 factoids.  I'm using about 15524 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 6.8/0.94 child 0.13/0.0916:13
GAN900We're on the internet, you're not getting out enough on it if you think Talk is bad. :P16:13
alteregoGAN900: yeah, but I'd already said dev. so I thought I'd push that :P16:13
SurfaGAN900, or perhaps I go out too much and don't spend enough time on different forums?16:13
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GAN900alterego, yeah, Reggie is very much a hands off sort of admin16:14
GAN900Surfa, __context__16:14
b-mantry looking at 4chan's /b/ lol16:14
Surfaactually t.m.o is worse than motorcycling forums and that is bad :)16:14
Surfareally bad16:14
GAN900Surfa, it's a joke, man. :)16:14
Khertanit s just an feeling ... or does their is less third party developpers now and application developpment than one year ago ... ?16:15
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b-man"newbies get eaten alive on t.m.o like a bloody trout in a tank of hungry sharks" lol16:16
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alteregoi think there is a blatant la of enthusiasm.16:16
GAN900Shit, how do I post a new thread in a forum. . . .16:16
Myrttiwhat you people need is more cheesecake16:16
GAN900alterego, quite obviously16:17
alteregoWe were always excited with previous devices. now we all have what we all wanted in the N900 (pretty much) it's kind of bad.16:17
Stskeepsi wonder if we stopped being activistic16:17
GAN900and it wasn't for initial lack of it16:17
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GAN900Nokia just choose to cut us off at the knees and kill all of the enthusiasm and goodwill16:17
GAN900and it's going to hurt MeeGo, too.16:17
melmothmy enthusiasm decreased with the regular strategic changes (gtk->qt, .deb->rpm).I think it died when i realised i needed an intel machine to run the meego emulator.16:18
* melmoth is studying qt none the less. 16:18
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Stskeepsmeego netbook ux, and i still think its cos people dont drop in nvidia libGL for instance16:19
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ptlGAN900: I agree wholeheartedly16:19
alteregoexactly, the N900 is what I hoped maemo devices would become but we've now been flooded by impatient customers that think the community forum is a good plac eto bitch about "290 crap apps" and their dissapointment with Nokia.16:20
Appiah290 crap apps?16:20
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achipaI wonder if MeeGo as such will have a community at all, or just the Moblin style dev-camaraderie, with the rest of the people on device-specific forums16:20
b-manalterego: i agree16:21
achipaalterego: I protest ! We have 308 crap apps !16:21
alteregoAppiah: just paraphrasing a post I read yesterday that was pretty insulting tbh.16:21
alteregoand I'm not really heavily developing, but we all contribute.16:22
DocScrutinizerMyrtti: ack16:22
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alteregoand I think there are some kick ass apps.even now, I think we have the most functional device. what are these apps people want? why can't they just tell us so we can provide?16:23
Stskeepsachipa: i think its important to see it not as community vs company. its more about committers and people without commit bits. and there's same opportunities to become a team member and provide yourself..16:23
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achipaalterego: super-duper 3D games and fart apps with cool UIs16:23
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Termana<b-man> try looking at 4chan's /b/ lol <--- I wouldn't insult /b/ too much, we might hear you!16:23
alteregoI spend most of my time getting pissed that I can't think of a ecent app to develop. I'm just waiting for a good idea I can get into and enthused about and I'm sure I' not the only one.16:24
b-manTermana: hehehe16:24
achipaStskeeps: I'm not talking company perspective at all, just trying to fit Joe User into MeeGo and have difficulties fitting him in there, meego-community and notwithstanding16:24
alteregoWell, tbh, I'm not interested or evn good at game dev :D16:24
Stskeepsachipa: yeah.. that is difficult cos meego isnt the product as such.. the stuff built on top is16:25
Khertanpersonnaly ... i didn't have any interest in meego for the moment16:25
achipaStskeeps: exactly16:25
Stskeepsthere's a lot of ambivalence16:25
* Arkenoi still cannot understand why, despite having great developer community, Nokia sucks that much. why people are able to develop and fix everything lightspeed fast outside nokia and if something depends on something inside nokia everything just goes wrong16:26
RST38hArkenoi: There is a simple answer to that16:26
alteregoWe're not tied down with legalities and corporate chains.16:26
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achipaStskeeps: and special per-device per-manufacturer APIs are not helping16:27
DocScrutinizerArkenoi: +116:27
RST38hArkenoi: It is a corporation. It's business is governed by corporate decisions, made by people who are not aware that developers exist, do not know who they are, what they want, and basically have not communicated with any live people at work for the last 10+ years16:27
Stskeepsachipa: per manufacturer apis are notoriously difficult if they arent in 'meego sdk'16:27
RST38hArkenoi: [other corpses obviously not inlucded]16:27
pexithere are lots of rumours @ finnish media atm how nokia should/could/will/may re-organize their strategy and leaders16:27
Appiahtime to take down "the man"? :)16:27
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* achipa shivers at the thought of the incoming Ovi API16:28
Stskeepsachipa: but its better (imho) that we finally have a platform we actually can have influence on.16:28
RST38hArkenoi: There is actually a great historic example of such a structure taking a fall: Commodore16:28
jacekowskiyou are talking about that mythical shop16:28
jacekowskithat will work properly one day16:28
GAN900pexi, down with Anssi.16:28
pupnik"interesting times" :/16:28
RST38hArkenoi; At the end, their actions lacked any kind of detectable logic16:28
achipaStskeeps: will we ? still not exactly convinced16:28
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MohammadAG51apt-worker is one fucked up piece of shit16:28
Appiahis OVI that bad? I haven't used it ... Dont wanna register at nokia...16:28
KhertanStskeeps: you finnally have a plateform where you feel to have influence on16:28
RST38hpupnik: What? Have been reading dailyrotten ? :)16:28
ptlMohammadAG51: btw, do you still have that uncrippled apt you recompiled?16:29
pupnikpeople always bitch about appstores16:29
ptlMohammadAG51: I can't find it on your site16:29
b-manMohammadAG51: it's annoying and a resource hog16:29
KhertanAppiah, of course it s bad ... you cannot submit python apps16:29
MohammadAG51ptl, I'll dig for it in a bit, but I have it16:29
AppiahKhertan: eeeh what?16:29
ptlMohammadAG51: thanks16:29
jacekowskiKhertan: python is a scripting language16:29
Khertanjacekowski, and ?16:29
jacekowskiKhertan: you can't make an application in it16:29
MohammadAG51ptl, ovi store doesn't use it btw ;)16:29
achipapupnik: Ovi needs improvement so it could GET to the phase where people could bitch about it :)16:29
Khertanjacekowski, LOL16:29
jacekowskiC FTW16:30
achipajacekowski: C is a no go, too16:30
jacekowskieven python is C based16:30
Stskeepsachipa: if you have merit, you have influence16:30
Khertanyeah ... but c sucks !!! it s too slow ! use directly ASM !16:30
ptlMohammadAG51: guess not, but I'm tired of trying to download fennec and the likes and getting Handler silently failed16:30
Appiahso if I make a pymaemo application its not a application but a script16:30
b-manachipa: the linux kernel is c16:30
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AppiahGuess we need a "Script Manager"16:30
achipab-man: you can't download the linux kernel from Ovi16:31
Appiahbeside the Application Manager16:31
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GAN900Stskeeps, do you?16:31
StskeepsGAN900: yes, i do16:31
GAN900I hear that said a lot, but I'm not seeing a lot of it16:31
GAN900You're paid16:31
KhertanStskeeps, didn't see anything noticeable :)16:31
MohammadAG51porting synaptics would be cool16:31
StskeepsGAN900: i still function as a community member.16:31
achipaStskeeps: I have yet to see that function in practice. We threw out karma, so it's currently buddy-o-cracy with Intel+Nokia BDFL-ism16:32
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Khertanor worse16:32
achipaStskeeps: (not that karma is a guarantee of anything, but currently we have a purely a subjective estimate of merit)16:32
ArkenoiRST38h, redhat and sun/orcale are big corporations too. but they *can* work with opensource without messing everything up.16:32
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Surfaexplain, how has nokia messed up?16:33
RST38hArkenoi: First, Sun/Oracle cannot really work with open source developers16:33
alteregoI'm sure most of us understand what itams like working for a stupid short sighted corp that try to seem like they'r looking into the future.16:33
achipaStskeeps: for example, what level of Merit would one need to lift SSSE3 requirements ?16:33
RST38hArkenoi: Secondly, in both these cases (especially Redhat's) you have got a corporation living off open source developers, taking their stuff and adopting it for its own needs16:33
achipaStskeeps: or to actively push for a more proactive 3rd party video driver approach ?16:33
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Arkenoiyes, why don't do the same16:33
RST38hArkenoi: As a matter of fact, Nokia is going this as well in Maemo, and sending a lot fo stuff upstream too16:34
alteregodevelopers usually have the best ideas, but management really don't give a shit what you think, unless they can steal it and say it was their idea.16:34
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Arkenoii'd be happy if many extras apps will become builtin16:34
RST38hArkenoi: But this model has nothign to do with developers support16:34
MyrttiThis Too Shall Pass16:34
Stskeepsachipa: ssse3 is funny - it does make sense to optimize for it. but i see no reason why sdk should build for it (qt)16:34
* RST38h passes Myrtti a doughnut16:34
Stskeepsjust like apps should built for v5, not v716:34
* DocScrutinizer shares the coffee16:35
RST38hArkenoi: You are not committing to anything by taking OSS code and modifying it as you see fit16:35
Stskeepsachipa: third party approach - suggest one. intel cant legally drop in nvidia libs :)16:35
Stskeepsand by that, i mean LF16:35
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DocScrutinizeractually this feels like Friday afternoon - wait it *is*... :-P16:36
alteregowell, it's even worse when you have entity like us (the maemo community) management probably odon't even kbow the tuerm community ... :D16:36
RST38hArkenoi: For example you are not promising that you will take every new version, every code patch, heed any criticism of the company made in the forums, however just16:36
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pexialterego, well in lean/agile methods the core development team has an important role from management point of view.. but ofc it is hard to implement it for big organizations16:36
achipaStskeeps: I understand that, just saying that the whole things just reeks of 'we do it our way' and I can't see the 'this is the super-universal standard all mobile linux gadgets will be base on' spirit16:36
alteregoMeeGo has potential, it  is apparently going to be more open.16:36
DocScrutinizerthough this particular Fri aft chan mood is quite whiny16:37
alteregothe community can make choices.16:37
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Arkenoibtw did anyone see email widget working? mine just shows no messages all the time16:37
ptlThere could be some kind of antitrust law or something that forces these stupid middle management people on Nokia to be good open source citizens and follow the protocols.16:38
Reffy@Arkenoi I'll assume you're using Nokia Messaging?16:38
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ArkenoiReffy, yep16:38
alteregoYes, why don't we have a positive friday. how can we fix this issue with community being drowned by users :)16:38
ReffyYeah, it's a common bug. Nokia Messaging doesn't work at all with the widget16:38
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Arkenoiand that's why we waited for pr1.2 for months16:39
Arkenoifixing bugs, my ass16:39
povbotBug 10294: Email desktop widget does not display mails from Nokia Messaging accounts16:39
AppiahArkenoi: are you not happy with the PR1.2?16:39
Arkenoithere are damn several times more bugs than 1.1.1 had16:39
alteregoI vote we organise a maemo jusers conference... then drop a nuke.16:39
ArkenoiAppiah, is anyone?16:39
alteregootoh, they'll all  be overclocking and probably reach some kind of critical mass :D16:39
ReffyI knew exactly what was coming with Pr1.2 so I wasn't disappointed16:40
AppiahArkenoi yes16:40
TermanaDocScrutinizer, *every* afternoon the channel is whiney16:40
andre900Reffy, what's with that bug?16:40
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Arkenoishow me that man ;-) i want to see16:40
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marmouteTermana: which afternoon ?16:40
TermanaIts just the level of whinyness.16:40
AppiahTalked to my friend yesterday who got a n900 , I myself have not updated yet and I asked about the PR1.2 experince16:40
Stskeepsachipa: i am looking forward to meego providing their intentions of a real openly developed system. it will take time and not happen overnight, but a lot of areas are popping out now.16:40
b-manwoooh! ny virtual machine's network connection is functional again16:40
ReffyUmmm what you mean?16:41
DocScrutinizermarmoute: Termana: afternoon somewhere on Sol316:41
Termanamarmoute, normally when someone uses the word 'all'16:41
andre900Context for the bug URL that you posted here.16:41
alteregoI was suprised how much harmatten is in gitorios ...16:41
Termanamarmoute, they mean, all16:41
b-man*gitorious ;)16:42
ReffySomeone asked why they couldn't see their mails in the email widget so I posted the relevant bug url. I assumed he'd vote for it or something.16:42
achipaStskeeps: hey, I'm not apriori rejecting anything, and am pretty sure that most of the issues stem from plain "dontcare" to "toobusydoingsomethingmoreimportant", not some super-evil conspiracy, but time is precious, we're already way way behind in the game16:42
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marmouteTermana: but what kind of all ? all afternoon of the week or of the day ?16:42
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andre900Reffy, oops, missed that when reading here. Okay, sorry :)16:43
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Termanamarmoute, we'll the sentence was specifically, every afternoon of the week. But all day every day would be accurate as well16:43
Termanaachipa, The Game16:44
TermanaYou already lost it16:44
achipaLost it ? Did I ever have it ? I'm a linux geek ferrichsake ! :D16:44
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Stskeepsachipa: my understanding is that people are happy to finally work in the open. some habit die hard though, so we need a compelling infrastructure for people not to fall back on internal tools.16:45
alteregoomfg, has it got that bad that now "the game" is here ...16:45
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KhertanHum ... i ve a question ... a bit out of topic ... but what soft did you use for your Personnal backups ? i ve try some ... but i found them not stable enought ... i m trying to backup to a simple nas which support only ftp/smb16:46
alteregoStskeeps: I agree completely, I'm sure the meego devices dept at Nokia are extremely happy about it.16:46
Termanaalterego, sorry, going back to 4chan now :P lol16:46
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melmothKhertan: rsync & ssh16:46
alteregoin fact reading blogs and stuff they're the most up beat out of everyone and it does truely seem geniune.16:46
Khertanmelmoth, hum ... this is the problem ... no scp on the nas16:47
Khertanno rsync daemon too16:47
Stskeepsalterego: the open mindset does exist but it is a bit like 'is it okay to come out of the cave now?' mentality16:47
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melmothmount your backup directory as a samba share ?16:47
StskeepsQA discussions in public between nokians, intelians, others, for instance16:47
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marmoutealterego: the Game are everywhere everybody play it.16:48
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Khertanmelmoth ... hum ... why i didn't think about something like that ... pfff16:48
achipaStskeeps: yeah, that's interesting. But also scary for outsiders, especially if you're used to being presented a finished piece of software16:48
Khertanmelmoth, thx :)16:48
Termanasorry had to chuck that in there16:48
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alteregoI'm hoping to be pleasantly supprised with the openness of the next device from Nokia. but I'm not holding my breathe. we know that there are going to be 4 UX's 2 of which are mobile. I don't see Nokia opening too much that aspect of Harmattan.16:50
alteregoand we've seen the tablet UX, looks like it has a lot of apps in by default. what will users expect to see in the mobile UX?16:50
achipaStskeeps: speaking of which, I still don't see any focus on educating the PUBLIC (=non-core-dev power users) what open development is and how it works, and IMHO that's pretty essential otherwise people will just treat it as patchwork16:51
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Termanaalterego, when your talking about Nokia opening the Harmattan UX are you specifically talking about the UI or the apps on top as well?16:51
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alteregoAnd vendors, well, I can really see them screwing this.16:51
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achipaalterego: isn't it 5 UX-es ?16:52
alteregoTermana: a mixture really, I've noticed there is a lot of Harmattan open, but the apps are part of the UX and should be open?16:52
alteregoachipa: probably :)16:52
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alteregoTermana: just looking at the tablet UX demo, the guy said they were core UX apps. what will lHarmattan have?16:53
Stskeepsachipa: a very good question. how do you tell users how open developers work?16:53
alteregoHow many maemo 5 apps are open? X Terminal?16:53
Khertanalterego, modest16:53
SpeedEvilalterego: modest16:53
Termanaalterego, I think you'll find the UI itself is open. They will be using the Handset UX's UI AFAIK. But there will probably be things in the Harmattan UX not included in the Handset UX16:53
Termanaeg. Ovi Store16:54
SpeedEvilalterego: most of hildon16:54
alteregoYeah, modest too.16:54
Myrttimy, aren't we a positive lot16:54
alteregoSpeedEvil: I mean apps, core apps.16:54
Stskeepsachipa: a very good question. how do you tell users how open development works?16:54
SpeedEvilwell - modest16:54
zaheerm-lphildon application manager16:54
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SpeedEvilStskeeps: Think of it as applications coded by a herd of unpaid cats.16:54
achipaStskeeps: I'm a coder-tinkener, it's hard to make myself think as a general user, but I DO see that there is a difference-in-perception issue, stemming from users not familiar with the process :(16:55
ptldamn. pulseaudio now frequently gets caught in a high-CPU cycle, I have to kill it otherwise it keeps using 1/3 of CPU time when idle.16:55
* RST38h laughs satanically16:55
alteregoSpeedEvil: more like monkeys :P16:55
Stskeepsachipa: is a example of that16:55
TermanaStskeeps, I didn't realise you have a parrot16:55
achipaStskeeps: just like doctors. You want to hear 'my problem is this, do that and all will be well'. You don't want to hear half a dozen doctors disagreeing and talking about compromise16:55
StskeepsTermana: what?16:55
alteregoAnd GAN900 who's just the silverback of the community :P16:56
achipa(even though technically that is what *is* and should be happening)16:56
TermanaStskeeps, nothing :P you just repeated what you said twice16:56
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* Mece is always enthusiastic about all things maemo and meego. He approaches problems with a childlike naivity and sense of wonder.16:56
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StskeepsTermana: it's boiling hot here16:56
TermanaStskeeps, achipa - anyway, is it really important for end-users to know how the development works? Because I'm not sure they care too much16:56
achipaTermana: the 'trouble' is they ARE more exposed to it16:57
RST38hend-users only need to know when to fuck off, true16:57
achipaas said, it's like hearing a bunch of doctors discussing course of action - it's scary (but normal)16:57
Aranelinitctl: mce respawning too fast, stopped wha..?16:58
jo-erlendhehe... i just had to test this. i read an article about iphone4, that it could run 4 apps at the same time. im currently running 32 on n900 and its still fast!16:58
alteregoI think a lot of things would be solved if thread creators could admin their own threads :)16:58
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TermanaRST38h, well thats not really what I meant :P but ok16:58
jacekowskialterego: no16:58
achipaTermana: plus, it can even be detrimental - see for example the USB host thread, people could not keep on topic even if their life depended on it16:59
jacekowskialterego: it will finish in anarchy16:59
alteregoWe'd just have a thread per user and only the interesting ones would be worth reading.16:59
alteregojacekowski: that's kind of close now right? :P16:59
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SpeedEvilachipa: Especially with the problem that in some cases, unskilled people literally can't help.16:59
jacekowskialterego: it's not even as half as close to what would happen16:59
SpeedEvilachipa: Basically - if you can't at least read datasheets, or kernel code - you're not helping in that thread.17:00
SpeedEvil(other than thanks, perhaps, but even then - you don't know who to thank)17:00
Stskeepsachipa: anyway.. it all bends down to, if you can contribute, you can gain merit, if you have merit, you can influence decisions in the field you're contributing in17:00
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Stskeepsachipa: if your team lead is not open to sanity, that's where the discussions really start and you can move disputes to TSG17:01
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achipaSpeedEvil: that's what I'm saying about general user education - they're simply used to jumping in discussiong in forums, and have no understanding of what 'technical discussion' means - that's why there has to be some level of platform education17:01
alteregoI think the basic theme is obviously impatience.17:01
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alteregomaybe auto ban people that use the word "when" :P17:02
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Stskeepsachipa: but if you're wondering how big this thing is.. we're having people talking in a public irc channel about BME and battery charging.17:02
alteregoactually "when will" would be more succinct.17:02
Stskeepsachipa: nokians and potential future team members exchanging ideas17:03
Stskeepsnow imagine that up on a bigger scale17:03
RST38hStskeeps: even the current scale took years to achieve and is quickly dissolving17:03
StskeepsRST38h: i believe all our trouble exists from a link to on :P17:03
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RST38hStskeeps: With being a separate community frm, there will not be continuity between these communities17:04
StskeepsRST38h: am i a cynic for being happy about the community being reset?17:04
alteregoRST38h: agreed, but the cool kids willl stay here :P17:04
achipaStskeeps: Yeah, that's all OK, but the problem is as follows - to reach the merit level, you have to be seriously invested in a particular area. So ? Well, this precludes people who have a different (but strong !) tech background17:04
RST38hStskeeps: Mmm, no, it does make sense to a certain degree17:04
RST38hStskeeps: But I believe the drawbacks will overweight the advantages17:04
achipaStskeeps: take for example the Qt vs GTK issue, or the RPM vs DEB angle, it is very difficult to contribute as those who know equally well the merits and drawbacks of both are very few17:05
Stskeepsachipa: aren't you typically invested already and has experience?17:05
Stskeepsachipa: that's up in architecture which is a place i wouldn't wish upon anyone :P17:05
alteregoI see my mission as integrating services on the devices. Enhancing inbuilt UX, that's why I did the mafw telepathy status updater. stupid little app, but it's kind of what I'm interested in. Just looking at where to go next.17:06
Stskeepsachipa: the issue isn't made easier by that a large number of community members have been sucked into nokia over time :)17:06
RST38hStskeeps: Between having to deal with raving teenagers and not having the current developers community we have with, I would take the first17:06
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RST38hStskeeps: Besides, it would mean I could go there every weekend and scalp a few17:06
RST38hStskeeps: Out of sheer sadistic fun17:07
achipaStskeeps: what I'm saying is that to be able to change something, you have to have had contributed to it a great deal, which can get counterintuitive :) It's a bit like saying that for a party to lose power they have to agree with it :)17:07
TermanaMaybe its just me, but relatively I think the RPM vs DEB debate is just a bunch people having a pissing match. Who really cares, I'm sure either one would be able to do the job its suppose to do.17:07
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achipaTermana: the bottom line is it doesn't touch users, but they DO see it, so it's get all FUDdy17:08
RST38hachipa: Maybe you should return to square #1: You *cannot* change anything in Maemo, no matter what kind of merit you have earned17:08
Stskeepsachipa: depending on area of contribution. hopefully there'll be a large number of teams so you can contribute in an area and work your way up17:08
RST38hachipa: In fact, you cannot change much in Maemo even if you are *working* for Maemo Devices as a developer17:08
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alteregoTermana: I have the same stance there, I might personally prefer deb, but that preference comes from an inherent trust of debian systems, that are my preference in general Linux terms ...17:08
Myrttipeople need better hobbies17:09
Stskeepsi mean, even though i have the failed Mer project on my back, that experience is getting widely accepted as knowing something about mobile linux and going about things :)17:09
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alteregoat least it's not gentoo .... :D17:09
Stskeepsand contributions speaking for themselves17:09
RST38hachipa: The decisions are often done by people who have "proper" corporate standing but have no expertise to make the decisions17:09
alteregoStskeeps: Mer would have been awesome :(17:09
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RST38hMyrtti: knitting?17:10
Stskeepsalterego: MeeGo's going to be awesome-r17:10
alteregoStskeeps: yes, it seems so :)17:10
MyrttiRST38h: cooking or gardening are options too17:10
TermanaThats right because they added a -r17:10
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DocScrutinizerMyrtti: sitting here watching IRC, I tend to agree with you, at least for my case17:10
RST38hMyrtti: hunting!17:10
alteregoespecially with the _corporate_ support against antitrust bs.17:10
Stskeepsat least my general impression of the current architects is people that have a boatload of merit :P17:11
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Stskeepsand i can understand qt vs gtk and rpm vs deb17:11
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* RST38h sighs at Stskeeps' general impression17:11
Stskeeps(and no, i'm not just a fanboy, i really do criticise stuf.)17:11
achipaMyrtti: when fishing is not an option, of course17:11
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* DocScrutinizer ponders to charge up that 1000uF/400V capacitor :-P17:11
DocScrutinizeralways has been fun17:12
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alteregoStskeeps: I used to prefer Gtk, in someways I still do, but Qt is rapidly becoming better in my eye, all my maemo/meego is Qt from now on. It does the whole XP thing much better than Gtk...17:12
achipaDocScrutinizer: used to call it "jumpy", eh ?17:12
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DocScrutinizerwith some tin foil it's really exciting17:13
DocScrutinizerand LOUD17:13
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LuciusMareHello, how to reset the password for "lock screen"?17:14
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DocScrutinizerelementary physics17:14
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DocScrutinizerLuciusMare: too bad, you need to visit nokia store afaik17:14
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alteregoLuciusMare: type in the old one, then type in the new one and confirm? :P17:15
LuciusMareDocScrutinizer: uh? It can't be simly reflashed?17:15
DocScrutinizerafaik not17:16
achipawhich reminds me... haven't tried the nightshot mode for astrophotography, there's something less polarizing for tonight's activities :)17:16
LuciusMareAny alternatives how to lock screen?17:16
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DocScrutinizerLuciusMare: err what?17:16
LuciusMareDocScrutinizer: other app to lock screen17:17
RST38hachipa: You can see stars from where you are?17:17
LuciusMaremaybe requesting the password on startup17:17
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DocScrutinizerLuciusMare: sorry I don't get your problem17:17
achipaRST38h: not NOW, but _tonight_ I certainly will be able to :)17:17
DocScrutinizerLuciusMare: thought you locked your device and forgot the password17:18
achipaRST38h: I'm not in Finland currently so I actually get a few hours of actual cloud-free nighttime even in June :)17:19
RST38hachipa: lucky17:19
LuciusMareI didn't lock it, I just set the password and forgot it -_-17:19
DocScrutinizeraaah, so make sure you got ssh configured17:20
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MohammadAG51qwerty12 made an app to change it - I think17:20
DocScrutinizerI read something about it long ago. maybe it's something about
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crashanddiethere's one thing that always bothered me with wardriving and monitoring networks17:24
crashanddiethere's no tool to "see" what other people are browsing17:24
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crashanddieI'm obviously not interested in https and shit17:25
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: yes there is17:25
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crashanddieSpeedEvil: so it displays the web pages that are coming back?17:25
DocScrutinizerLuciusMare: maybe this might help:  -  at least to find more info17:25
SpeedEvilWell - nearly.17:26
crashanddieonly text-based17:26
crashanddieI want graphical, see the web page the guy is browsing17:26
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SpeedEvilcrashanddie: You'd need a few dozen lines of scripting, in order to push it into a directory structure compatible with wwwoffled - or some other webcache, with fake URLs17:27
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SpeedEvilcrashanddie: and then a thing to point the browser at it17:27
crashanddieor write a browser that could use some cap file directly17:27
SpeedEvilthat looks significantly harder.17:27
crashanddiefilter the cap in wireshark to only track http streams17:28
SpeedEvilThis thing already emits the files in - more or less - the right structure for wwwoffled17:28
SpeedEvilyou just need to move them to teh right filename, and directory, and it will basically work.17:28
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LuciusMareI'll never browse on wifi again17:29
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SpeedEvilWPA is really hard to sniff.17:29
SpeedEvilWEP quite easy17:29
LuciusMareI'll never browse on unprotected wifis again17:30
SpeedEvilI'm currently taking part in a study, which involves tracking all my web browsing on the n900.17:31
DocScrutinizerI don't care17:31
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SpeedEvilI just don't do anything illegal on the n900, so it's not a major concern.17:31
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: they really need to pay you better for that :-P17:31
SpeedEvilyeah - well - it pays for the internets connection to the n900.17:32
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LuciusMareSpeedEvil: "I've you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear."? :P17:33
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crashanddie"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." --Google CEO Eric Schmidt17:34
SpeedEvilFor various reasons - I don't do anything questionable on the n900.17:34
SpeedEvilSo - if the browsing history were made public, it doesn't bother me.17:35
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Termana/nick FBI17:35
TermanaSpeedEvil, yes, but we're interested in what questionable things you are doing on other devices/computers.17:35
LuciusMareMeh, so the solution: don't go out?17:35
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Tachikomaisn't it possible to just browse without creating a history?17:37
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SpeedEvilYou will always create some traces - even in only the farside logs.17:38
SpeedEvilThe best you can do is to anonymise your origin, and merge it with others.17:39
DocScrutinizerI obviously should stop thinking, as not always I want everybody to know what I think17:39
LuciusMareBecome anonymous(tm) .17:39
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DocScrutinizerbut then, if Google CEO Eric Schmidt would eat his ofn dogfood, we never seen google17:40
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* SpeedEvil is economising on food.17:40
SpeedEvilI haven't gone that far though.17:40
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DocScrutinizerthere's quite a number of other stuff than just dogfood I'd like to shove down Eric's throat17:41
LuciusMareWhy so, DocScrutinizer?17:42
TachikomaSpeedEvil: what are farsight logs?17:43
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Tachikomafarside logs17:43
DocScrutinizerbecause he sounds like all those other wankers, the one we suffered from 33-45, the founder of scientology, you name it17:43
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SpeedEvilTachikoma: err - what?17:43
SpeedEvilTachikoma: oh17:43
th3hateSomeone help:
SpeedEvilTachikoma: For example - browse to 4chan.17:43
sjgadsbyTachikoma:  Logs on the far side of the connection, on web server.17:43
SpeedEvilTachikoma: 4chan will have some record of inbound connections.17:43
SpeedEvilTachikoma: If you have a static IP, that points directly at you with no indirection.17:44
SpeedEvilTachikoma: If you're on NAT - it's a bit harder.17:44
LuciusMareWhy did you choose 4chan as the example? O_o17:44
Tachikomayeah, that stuff usually gets hidden via anonymizers like tor, doesn't it. I assumed already anonym browsing and was wondering if one could also shut up the browser ...17:45
SpeedEvilTachikoma: Well - somewhat17:45
th3hatei'm getting this error when i download wget:
th3hatehow to fox?17:45
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SpeedEvil - for example17:46
Tachikomath3hate: apt-get update?17:46
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TachikomaSpeedEvil: thanks, that looks interesting, will read tonight17:46
SpeedEvilTachikoma: Getting true anonymity is hard.17:46
SpeedEvilTachikoma: It basically means leaking no information - like history17:46
TachikomaSpeedEvil: i know.17:47
crashanddieSpeedEvil: isn't the whole point of 4chan that they delete everything after a month or so? Inluding logs and everything?17:47
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: Or do they?17:47
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: Is moot really running 4chan, or is it the FBI.17:48
Tachikomai always wondered what privoxy actually filters but never had time to take a deeper look. currently that is my "out-of-the-box" solution to feel a little bit better ;)17:48
SpeedEvilThe above website indicates another problem - CSS history leaks17:48
crashanddieSpeedEvil: "Congratulations, we did not find anything in this category in your browser history."17:48
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SpeedEvilOn the PC I use for my all my n900 browsing, it shows no xxx sites.17:48
DocScrutinizerget an anonymous prepaid SIM, change your IMEI, browse thru 3G only, from a place where you usually aren't doing this, and never use that phone for any other purpose, or to access any personalized website/service, like e.g email-POP317:48
TachikomaI know people that just use differen firefox profiles for different kind of websites ...17:49
SpeedEvilTachikoma: But do they use different resolutions, extensions, versions of firefox?17:49
SpeedEvilTachikoma: OSs, ...17:49
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: or just run a windows VM, change the mac address in vmware, then connect to a public hotspot at mcdonalds or something17:49
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: it'll be sometime before mac addresses will allow government agencies to track you, anyhoo17:50
TachikomaSpeedEvil: of course not, this is just to feel better - like me using provoxy17:50
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: hmm, equally valid, though you need to watch out for surveilance cams etc17:50
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: large 1.2m dish pointing at a distant AP17:50
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: same for n900 browsing :) CSI could probably read our screens in the reflection of the guy with sunglasses at starbucks17:50
Tachikomawasn't that CTU ?;17:51
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: no they can't17:51
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: yes they can.17:51
SpeedEvilThey have visual basic.17:51
DocScrutinizerooh, sorry, yes they can - I got your statement wrong17:51
* LuciusMare is getting paranoid17:52
DocScrutinizerfor CRT you can read out the image content from indirect light17:52
Tachikomacurrently i browse from n900 only through openvpn -> home. Not for privacy but to avoid the forced redirects to the telephone companies proxies that scale down all pictures and screw with content in other ways ....17:52
th3hateTachikoma: apt-get update didn't fix it17:53
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DocScrutinizerreflection of the image in a sunglasses is a much simpler matter though17:53
Tachikomath3hate: mh, usually i get this message when the local package database points to some package on the seerver that is not there anymore, so it fixed it for me usually/17:54
DocScrutinizerth3hate: iirc wget is in tools repo17:54
SpeedEvilsnooping on CRTs with indirect light17:54
LuciusMarehow is the history reading even possible?17:54
th3hateDocScrutinizer: how to iirc wget?17:54
SpeedEvilSnooping on LCDs with RF17:55
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RST38hTry snooping on LCDs with the tiny magnets implanted into your fingers17:55
SpeedEvilsnooping on keyboards with sound17:56
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TachikomaSpeedEvil: i guess you already know this:
Tachikomayou can play music on your radio using your CRT monitor as transmitter :)17:56
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LuciusMareno, really :<17:56
SpeedEvilTachikoma: there are much cooler ones.17:56
th3hateHow do i iirc a package @?17:56
TachikomaSpeedEvil: i only tried that years ago - when CRTs were still popular17:57
SpeedEvil_so_ much awesomeness17:57
SpeedEvilSpecifically -
SpeedEvilbroadcast digital video signal with CRT17:57
Tachikomajust read it, crazy :)17:57
DocScrutinizerth3hate: enable all repositories, incl -devel and -tools, then redo apt-get update and aptg-get install wget17:58
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DocScrutinizerthen disable all the repos again that you just had enabled!!17:58
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DocScrutinizerand do a apt-get update agin17:59
MohammadAG51wget is in -devel, qole needs it for easy-deb-chroot17:59
th3hateDocScrutinizer: i know i did that but im still getting the error18:00
th3hatemaybe wget is really missing?18:00
Tachikomathen an apt-get update would still solve it and you get "no such package" or a similar message18:00
MohammadAG510 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 5 not upgraded.18:00
crashanddieTachikoma: or in bones, from old (printed) emails, they found the IP address of the guy (incidentaly in the 192.168 range), and they were able to immediately view his screen, and then his webcam.18:00
DocScrutinizerth3hate: something in your install is borked18:01
MohammadAG51it's in extras too18:01
MohammadAG51Get:1 fremantle-1.2/free wget 1.10.2-2osso3 [620kB]18:01
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* Tachikoma just creates his first gitorious repository :)18:01
Tachikomacrashanddie: bones?18:02
th3hatecan i download it from app manager directly?18:02
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Tachikomacrashanddie: ah - now it makes sense :) pseudo scientific TV series and reality - two different things :)18:04
MohammadAG51it's a cool show though18:04
crashanddiegood characters, I love TJ Thyne18:04
Tachikomayeah, i actually know it, just didn't get it immediatly18:04
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: (view screen/webcam) isn't that exactly how windows works, though?18:05
crashanddiesuperb shortfilm with tj thyne:
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xDaReaperxis anyone there in need serious help18:07
xDaReaperxmy N900 shows the logo and vibrates but dosent start18:07
xDaReaperxit keeps showing the Nokia logo and vibrates18:07
MohammadAG51infobot, flashing18:07
infoboti heard flashing is
crashanddie< xDaReaperx> is anyone there in need serious help <-- you? :D18:07
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xDaReaperxoh i have to flash ?18:08
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xDaReaperxwill i loose data ?18:08
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crashanddieno, but you may lose data18:08
DocScrutinizernot much though18:08
xDaReaperxhmm what kind of data18:09
xDaReaperximages and stuff ?18:09
DocScrutinizerjust enough to remind you about backup app18:09
crashanddiethose are on the emmc18:09
xDaReaperxi have backuped18:09
xDaReaperxbut how do i flash if the mobile wont start ?18:09
crashanddiexDaReaperx: usb and stuff?18:09
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DocScrutinizerwhich logo exactly does it show?18:09
xDaReaperxnothing only the Nokia logo comes up and it vibrates18:09
xDaReaperxand goes blank and again comes up and vibrates18:10
xDaReaperxkeeps doing the same thing18:10
xDaReaperxover and over18:10
DocScrutinizerhold 'u' button18:10
DocScrutinizersee if it stops looping18:10
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DocScrutinizerthen reflash rootfs18:11
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xDaReaperxholding U dosent stop it looping18:12
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xDaReaperxcan you tell me which package to download plz :
xDaReaperxshould i download the .exe ?18:13
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DocScrutinizer~tell xDaReaperx about flashing18:16
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BCMMwhat do i need to get started with compiling stuff for the n900?18:16
BCMM(e.g. just a C Hello World to start with)18:16
th3hatesouth africa scored finally :P18:18
BCMMDocScrutinizer: thanks18:19
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BCMMalso, any gentoo users here? is dev-embedded/scratchbox-devkit-maemo3 what i need, and is it up-to-date?18:20
xDaReaperxDocScrutinizer : Now i've kept my device for recharging , since it is said to charge the battery to the fullest , but when i charge the phones loops again18:20
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DocScrutinizercan you switch it down by holding the power button?18:21
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xDaReaperxno i cant18:21
xDaReaperxi have to remove the battery18:21
DocScrutinizerthen I suggest you don't waste battery on useless effort to charge, but start flashing right away18:22
xDaReaperxokay fine18:22
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DocScrutinizeron a second thought, your problem might be caused by a broken battery as well18:22
Escafane\join #redditscooer18:22
Escafane\join #redditsoccer18:23
DocScrutinizernot yet18:23
xDaReaperxno my battery is new18:23
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xDaReaperxsome app installed this Kernel power for users18:23
xDaReaperxand this caused the problem18:23
DocScrutinizerEscafane: windows, eh? ;-P18:23
xDaReaperxit was not able to restore the nokia kernel18:23
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xDaReaperxand told me to restart the phone and since then i got this problem18:23
Escafaneer yes. also wrong page18:23
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: you need to reflash kernel and rootfs. both should work from flasher, by flashing COMBINED fiasco image18:25
xDaReaperxhow do i do that ?18:25
MohammadAG51infobot, flashing18:25
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: I strongly suggest you try using the linux flasher18:25
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xDaReaperxbut i should have linux for that dont i ?18:26
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: I did a better job on that, previously :-P18:26
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: yes, would help18:26
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, actually, read 10-100 lines before, I mentioned it the first time XP18:26
DocScrutinizerthe windows flasher is constantly giving problems18:26
xDaReaperxoh man , why wont the windows flasher work ?18:26
MohammadAG51it would18:27
xDaReaperxdamn , now i'm tensed18:27
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: that's what I meant18:27
DocScrutinizerit didn't help the first time18:27
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: occasionally win-flasher works as well18:27
DocScrutinizerjust has more issues than linux18:27
xDaReaperxso now since i dont have linux i should use Windows18:28
DocScrutinizerso if you got the choice18:28
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xDaReaperxwhat are the chances that something will go wrong ?18:29
crashanddieBCMM: install build-essential from the SDK repo and you're good to compile on-device.18:29
crashanddiexDaReaperx: 18.2%18:29
DocScrutinizertoday's friday, so 18.418:30
BCMMcrashanddie: i have been told that enabling the sdk repo will make the n900 eat my pets18:30
crashanddieBCMM: ok, then no compilation for you.18:30
BCMMcrashanddie: (or that there was some kind of issue to be careful of)18:31
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crashanddiejust add the repo, apt-get build-essential, remove repo18:31
DocScrutinizer~hail t-tan for the userfriendly "power kernel" :-S18:31
* infobot bows down to t-tan for the userfriendly "power kernel" :-S and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"18:31
crashanddiedon't run updates, don't apt-get upgrade, you'll be fine.18:31
th3hateis petola widget working for anyone?18:31
* SpeedEvil bows down, and is not worthy.18:32
SpeedEvilTake that GCC!18:32
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SpeedEvilA compiler in 2048 bytes of c.18:33
DocScrutinizerthough ""some app installed this Kernel power for users"" also sounds a little... err, searching for excuse18:33
xDaReaperxyeah thats the app that made my phone to die now18:33
xDaReaperxi'm really tensed , i dunno how safe flashing is18:33
xDaReaperxwhat if something goes wrong18:33
BCMMSpeedEvil: good god, that is terrible18:33
DocScrutinizerflashing is safe18:33
BCMMin a wonderful sort of way18:34
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MohammadAG51<xDaReaperx> what if something goes wrong18:34
DocScrutinizertry harder - fail better :-P18:34
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xDaReaperxomg this .bin file is 179 MB18:36
xDaReaperxi have to download that too ?18:36
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: fsckng awsome18:37
* achipa sees that is still dead. Is it just hiding or is it going to play dead all weekend ?18:38
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: feel happy you've not killed your phone by installing random garbage without reading the instructions18:39
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Tachikomai just saw that i received a mail from nokia on 3.6.2010 telling me that there is ovi store 1.6 now and that it's awsome and explain tomns of features ... Why do they send me that - i should be marekd as n900 owner in their database ...18:40
xDaReaperxso all i need is the Nokia USB cable , The Maemo 3.5 flasher software and the .bin file , to reflash18:41
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* DocScrutinizer sighs18:41
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: and a lot more of patience and coolness as the real dl load comes *after* you've flashed the rootfs, on restoring your backup18:42
xDaReaperxoh so there's more to download later ? oh man18:42
xDaReaperxon the documentation it says : Make sure that the device battery is fully charged before doing any sort of flashing operation because flashing fails if the battery runs out of power during the image flashing operation, and the device may not be able to charge an empty battery after a failure in flashing.18:43
xDaReaperxbut i cant charge as i told u it keeps looping18:43
Tachikomayes, that is a big issue18:43
DocScrutinizeryou need to reinstall all the friggin apps you had. and take care you don't install power kernel during that restore session :-P18:43
xDaReaperxoh i dont care of the apps18:43
xDaReaperxi need the mobile running back , i'm so tensed18:43
Tachikomai actually bough an external battery charger for mobile phone batteries to never face the battery dead/flash scenario18:44
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: *I* told ya [2010-06-11 17:22:05] <DocScrutinizer> then I suggest you don't waste battery on useless effort to charge, but start flashing right away18:44
TachikomaxDaReaperx: if you know anothe n900 owner, charge your batteryu full in his n900 before flashing18:45
xDaReaperxwell i dont18:45
Tachikomaand it does not have to be 100% full, it must just not become empty WHILE flashing18:45
xDaReaperxno its not empty its 43 %18:45
xDaReaperxor so18:45
xDaReaperxi think18:45
DocScrutinizerand gets less while you're arguing here18:46
TachikomaxDaReaperx: that should be enough, flashing takes not longer than 5 minutes from my experience18:46
xDaReaperxoh thank God18:46
DocScrutinizeractually it takes ~30s18:46
TachikomaxDaReaperx: but TAKE OUT THE BATTERY NOW. And only put it back in the moment you will flash18:46
xDaReaperxyeah i did that ^18:46
TachikomaDocScrutinizer: yeah, I was flashing emmc as well18:46
Tachikomaanother way to get a full battery is to go to a nokia shop18:47
Tachikomajust in case18:47
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Tachikomathis is my "backup :)18:47
Tachikomai got it for 7 euro18:48
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Tachikomafor n800 actually, had to saw of one end so n800 battery di fix, but charged the battery as expected18:48
xDaReaperxDocScrutinizer : what kind of menu will be there when i run the flasher ?18:48
xDaReaperxyou told me about some Fiasco img or something18:48
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DocScrutinizer~tell xDaReaperx about flashing18:49
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DocScrutinizer~tell xDaReaperx "read that!"18:49
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xDaReaperxso once the mobile starts flashing i can plug the charger right18:53
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xDaReaperxsays in the documentation : You can plug the device back into power once it starts flashing).18:54
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* GAN900 is evil.18:59
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Ian--hi in the virtual keyboard since pr1.2 has the backspace button been removed?19:17
jacekowski    i never had any problems with virtual keyboard19:17
jacekowskimaybe because i don't use it19:18
SpeedEvilbackspace is under ?19:19
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trumeeguys, i used tcpdump to create a dump of the network for maemo sip bug. How do i extract just the sip/rtp stream for bugzilla. i want to remove all the sensitive info before uploading it to bugzilla19:24
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SpeedEviltrumee: I recommend tcpick perhaps19:25
trumeehow can i extract using wireshark19:25
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trumeeSpeedEvil: ok, i will install tcpick then19:25
SpeedEvilI've used tcpick for that in the past, and it's worked well19:25
SpeedEvilI'm unsure about tools that will parse the tcpdump capture19:26
DocScrutinizerwireshark has arbitrary filtering, and afaik a convenient way to print out and/or save19:26
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DocScrutinizernobody will care about a pcap file on tracker anyway, I guess19:27
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DocScrutinizerand you open pcap simply in wireshark I guess19:28
trumeeDocScrutinizer: i cant take a chance of that. How can i extract sip/rtp streams for uploading to bugzilla?19:28
trumeeSpeedEvil: unfortunately i dont have tcpick on my gentoo system19:28
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trumeeDocScrutinizer: yes, i can open it but what do i save from wireshark:19:28
DocScrutinizerthe info you want to share on your track ticket. Nobody will do that filtering and data dissect for you19:29
LiraNunawhat the hell @ chromium?19:29
LiraNunaare the Maemo repositories became Apple's ass store?19:29
infobotLiraNuna meant: did the Maemo repositories became Apple's ass store?19:30
SpeedEvilLiraNuna: REgrettably lawyers do not think like normal people.19:30
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MohammadAG51LiraNuna, not really, 'we' just don't want trouble19:30
SpeedEvilAnd - given the opinion of nokias lawyers that it should come down - and the domains hosting - it was pretty obvious what'd happen19:30
MohammadAG51feel free to create your own repo and host it19:30
svanheulenyeah i was confused about the chromium thing too... i thought it used BSD license?19:31
SpeedEvilsvanheulen: It's a patent issue19:31
microlithsvanheulen: software licenses don't get you around software patents19:31
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MohammadAG51some IL company sued google19:31
SpeedEvilsvanheulen: A company claims it infringes a patent.19:31
SpeedEvilsvanheulen: The patented - allegedly - stuff got pulled - and it reuploaded.19:31
svanheulenoh god, software patents, my fav ...19:31
SpeedEvilBut the lawyers were still unhappy taking the risk19:31
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MohammadAG51i'm not really sure how patens are infringed in open source SW19:32
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microlithMohammadAG51: everything does, probably19:32
SpeedEvilMohammadAG51: The same way they are in regular SW.19:32
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MohammadAG51SpeedEvil, but it's open source19:32
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SpeedEvilMohammadAG51: Because it's open-source doesn't mean it cannot infringe patents.19:33
svanheulenMohammadAG51: yeah, but they're still taking away business of the patent hold i guess19:33
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SpeedEvilIf open source infringes patents - there may be no direct financial remedy against the author - but the patent holder can still insist it's removed.19:34
SpeedEvilAnd in some countries this has legal force.19:34
microlithiirc, there's a patent less than 10 years old that covers linked lists19:34
LiraNunaaren't software patents cute19:35
LiraNunaI know one that covers how to do a fast 'abs' in 3 instructions19:35
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svanheulenLiraNuna: if by 'cute' you mean retarded, yes19:36
SpeedEvilMy pet hate.19:36
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SpeedEvilThe kernel had - back in 2.0.20 times or so - a (out-of-tree) module - 'mergemem'19:36
LiraNunasvanheulen, sarcasm19:37
SpeedEvilThis hashed all memory, and found pages with identical hashes, and merged them so that they were using the same page of RAM - protected them - so they would get split again on write.19:37
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SpeedEvilFast forward to ~2006 or so, and vmware gets a patent on exactly this.19:37
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microlithSpeedEvil: err, isn't that exactly what KSM does?19:37
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SpeedEvilIn ~2008 - KSM explicitly avoided this obvious technique in order to do the same thing.19:38
SpeedEvilsort-of, not quite.19:38
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SpeedEvilmergemem was designed to do _all_ memory.19:38
SpeedEvilAlso, I note the n900 has a hashing engine in the CPU.19:38
svanheulenSpeedEvil: to be fair, you can't expect the people approving patents to know everthing that ever existed19:39
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LiraNunahence why patents are retarded19:39
SpeedEvilBut 'hey - look at this code from 2002' should be a simple straight-forward free excersize to get the patent cancelled.19:40
SpeedEvilNot the risk of expensive court action that may drag on for years.19:40
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zaheerm-lpwhat is funny is that meego distributes chromium19:40
LiraNunathe patent council is made of retards - you really expects them to know better?19:41
svanheulenWell yeah, I don't see why they can't just allow people to sumbit prior art to get patent invalidated before they cause court cases19:41
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microlithzaheerm-lp: I suppose Intel is playing 800lb gorilla19:41
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LiraNunawrong window19:46
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MohammadAG51alterego, you could add a terminal option to show what song your listening to19:57
MohammadAG51kinda like a backend19:57
MohammadAG51it would export the same %s and %t19:57
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kwtmHi! Need advice: what is MeeGo, and if I have Maemo5 on my new N900, will I be able to use it?  Sounds like the brand new Maemo5 is already obsolete.19:58
kwtmI just bought my N900, can still return it for refund if I should wait a month or two before getting a MeeGo tablet/phone.19:59
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Stskeepsnoone knows when the first meego device is coming out and your n900 isn't breaking of that reason :P19:59
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RST38hactually, 4Q2010 for Harmattan device20:00
RST38hwhich is marketed as a meego20:00
Robot101despite obviously not being... :P20:01
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kwtmStskeeps: Would it be reasonable to expect that I can load MeeGo onto my N900?20:02
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microlithkwtm: entirely20:02
MohammadAG51heh, you're asking the guy who's porting it :P20:02
kwtmI don't want to have a shorter useful life for my tabletphone software because I've come in at the end of Maemo, as opposed to (say) someone with a N810 who has had a longer time to enjoy/use Maemo before it became obsolete.20:02
microlithyou can run it now (sans gui20:02
RST38hkwtm: Nokia will not officially support your meego installation though20:02
Stskeepswhat RST38h said.. you can't call nokia care about it and it may possibly not come with shiny nokia bits20:03
MohammadAG51ovi? :)20:03
RST38hi.e. it will not have GSM, GPS, and power saving20:03
Stskeepsthat's not true20:03
MohammadAG51RST38h, err...20:04
Stskeepsphone stack is getting opened, gps we haven't touched yet20:04
Stskeepspower saving is just bullshit to say we're not getting :P20:04
kwtmThank you, all.  Final question: has Nokia announced any specific device which will run MeeGo?  (I know no one has announced when it will come out.)  If it's specific, may be worthwhile waiting; else I'll keep my N900.  Have to refund within 4 days else no refund.20:04
xDaReaperxugh the .bin file for flashing the phone is taking lots of time to download20:04
Stskeepskwtm: no, no announcements.20:04
xDaReaperxi still dont understand which app made my phone to not boot any more20:04
MohammadAG51knowing nokia, if they announce it tomorrow, expect it next december20:04
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kwtmThanks.  Will probably keep my N900, keep observing MeeGo.  (I bought a Sharp Zaurus, too, just before it went obsolete --lack of software ecosystem.)20:05
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: you installed power kernel, no?20:05
xDaReaperxno some app installed it for me20:06
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: and then you fsckd it up by not following the insructions how to deinstall it20:06
xDaReaperxit shows the deinstall power kernel , i tried to but it said error on reinstalling nokia kernal20:06
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: there is no app that installs power kernel20:06
Stskeepskwtm: long story short. Nokia is funding a rather big team to maintain MeeGo (not Harmattan) on N900. N900 is the reference device for ARM platforms in MeeGo and hence all packages in MeeGo should build against this (with some exceptions).20:06
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, I think kismet does20:06
xDaReaperxhmm but i dont remember intalling that power kernel app20:06
MohammadAG51w/e that is20:07
xDaReaperxya i installed kismet20:07
Stskeepskwtm: nokia also provides the ability for some closed source components to be added, either in a premade image or downloadable with a n900 IMEI20:07
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MohammadAG51xDaReaperx, reflash the kernel20:07
kwtmStskeeps: Ah, I see.  So there *is* substantial support from Nokia for N900 MeeGo, just not officially supporting MY installation of MeeGo so I can't go sue them or something.20:07
xDaReaperxyeah i'm going to do it now , i'm still downloading the .bin file20:07
w00t_GAN900: I think that it's not entirely correct to say they do everything possible to fail, though20:07
xDaReaperxslow connection here20:07
Stskeepskwtm: bingo.20:07
DocScrutinizercan we please nuke kismet then?20:07
w00t_GAN900: I mean, if *that* was true, then they'd not have bothered investing effort into taking the N900 further at all20:07
Stskeepskwtm: the key term is productization.20:08
MohammadAG51infobot, nuke kismet20:08
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kwtmSounds like I picked the right phone to buy, then.  My colleagues were just talking the other day about how the iPhone 4 will be So Much Better when it comes out, and I asked, "Does it have multitasking yet?"20:08
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* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at kismet ... B☢☢M!20:08
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Stskeepskwtm: to read more about meego.20:08
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CosmoHillkwtm: i still think the iphone is the phone of tomorrow today20:09
CosmoHillno wait20:09
Stskeepswhen did CosmoHill get in here?20:09
CosmoHillthe phone of yesterday today20:09
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: fail, the maintainer wasn't near enough to ground zero20:09
GAN900w00t_, yeah, hyperbole.20:10
CosmoHillStskeeps: 2 mins ago, I shuck in behind w00t_20:10
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GAN900w00t_, that was just cathartic. :P20:10
* MohammadAG51 waits for the maintainer to show up @ ground 020:10
kwtmCosmoHill: Different people have different needs.  I feel uneasy with the locked-down nature of the iPhone (starting with "You *must* use AT&T as your provider!").20:10
xDaReaperxso that app is kind of like a malware ?20:10
MohammadAG51not really20:10
CosmoHillkwtm: in the UK you have a choice of 3 or 420:10
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, just hates t-tan20:11
MohammadAG51lol jk xP20:11
Stskeepsi think the key term about the cutting off official upgrades is that the community is acting like the wife that always comes back to the husband who beats her20:11
w00t_Stskeeps: i made the mistake of mentioning #maemo on #meego :-P20:11
GAN900w00t_, it just REALLY frustrates me that they'll let the N900 slip away by not providing official support.20:11
kwtmCosmoHill: Also no removable battery, no removable storage card.  I need to be able to travel to Asia (I do it at least once a year) and pop in a local SIM card and be ready to go.20:11
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kwtmGAN900: It feels like KDE3 and KDE4 all over again. :P20:11
w00t_GAN900: I'm not happy about the decision, admittedly, but I'll wait and see how the situation ends up like20:12
GAN900Stskeeps, well, because as much as Nokia sucks there's nobody better.20:12
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: that app is kind of incredibly bad maintained, when it leaves you with a broken device. Evidentally, no?20:12
MohammadAG51you know why I hate the iPhone?20:12
GAN900I'd LOVE to be able to take my money elsewhere20:12
GAN900But where?20:12
MohammadAG51the 2G was soooo underpowered, yet it succeeded20:12
MohammadAG51iPhone 2G that is20:12
StskeepsGAN900: i'm more talking about they're not actively trying to make the situation better. mostly chatting about the beating but that's about it.20:12
xDaReaperxDocScrutinizer : oh okay , next time i better think before i install anthing20:12
Ikarushmz, *ponder*20:12
IkarusI am hacking on getting BT PAN mode working20:13
microlithMohammadAG51: goes to show what interface design and hype gets you20:13
GAN900Stskeeps, making the situation better involves dropping Nokia like a rock and moving to another state. :)20:13
Ikarusbut I am doubting between working up a userland NAT daemon20:13
GAN900Stskeeps, so the analogy doesn't quite work. :P20:13
Ikarusor requiring a custom kernel20:13
StskeepsGAN900: or trying to work out a solution :P20:14
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GAN900Stskeeps, when a relationship is abusive, there is no solution. :)20:14
DocScrutinizerIkarus: I thought there already is some NAT alike shit used for similar purpose?20:14
t-tanMohammadAG51: ??20:14
CosmoHillwouldn't dropping nokia be like dumping your girlfriend after one argument?20:14
GAN900CosmoHill, no.20:14
IkarusDocScrutinizer: Wifi hotspot uses a custom kernel20:14
GAN900CosmoHill, this is the beaten wife analogy.20:15
IkarusDocScrutinizer: haven't found anything else yet20:15
CosmoHillah okay20:15
Ikarusand I have a userland NAT daemon in the rough20:15
GAN900One argument would've been dropping them in 2006 after the 770.20:15
Ikarus(it's pretty optimistic and all that, but for BT PAN with a couple of laptops should be fine)20:15
Stskeepsi wonder how the mobile landscape would have looked if maemo 1.0 was like meego 1.0.20:15
DocScrutinizerIkarus: much better than yet another custom kernel20:16
w00t_Stskeeps: bit too early to say, I still think20:16
IkarusDocScrutinizer: well, BT PAN can use the same kernel as wifi hotspot20:16
IkarusDocScrutinizer: it only needs the NAT20:16
* DocScrutinizer sighs20:16
Ikarus(BT DUN works for me, but I can't have both my phone and my laptop online that way)20:16
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aziwoqpdand bridging, to connect pan1 with the bnep* interfaces20:17
DocScrutinizerwhy-owhy do we need custom kernels for every shit?20:17
kwtmI like having the clout of Intel Moblin joined with Nokia, but since Microsoft may scramble to create a competitor (see IE7 vs. Firefox), MeeGo may or may not go far, so I'll stick with the bird in hand (Maemo) rather than two in bush (MeeGo).20:17
IkarusDocScrutinizer: well, with NAT, the N900 kernel lacks low level hooks for it20:17
Stskeepskwtm: they're trying with windows phone 7 or something..20:17
Ikaruscertain parts of iptables/netfilter need to be compiled in20:17
DocScrutinizerIkarus: hmm, seems the stock kernel is real crap20:18
t-tanxDaReaperx: you installed kismet from devel?20:18
SpeedEvilWindows 7 is really based around the 2.0.33 kernel.20:18
xDaReaperxi think yes20:18
SpeedEvilIt's got some way to go to catch up.20:18
IkarusDocScrutinizer: it's erm, barebones20:18
microlithkwtm: what will microsoft do, release windows phone 7 in all its deliberately crippled glory?20:18
kwtmSpeedEvil: Sorry, what??  Did you just name a Linux kernel, or you're talking about the Windows kernel?20:18
t-tanxDaReaperx: don't blame anyone if you use -devel20:19
* SpeedEvil wasn't being very serious.20:19
IkarusDocScrutinizer: and modifying netfilter to be fully module insertable is significantly more scary then a userland NAT daemon :)20:19
w00t_I believe SpeedEvil was being facetious20:19
kwtmmicrolith: <laugh> knowing MS, they'll say: "Windows 8 for Phones!  (requires DVD burner in your smartphone)"20:19
xDaReaperxwell i'm not blaming any one yet , i just want my phone back up20:19
xDaReaperxshould i enable R&D mode during Flashing ?20:19
* kwtm was being gullible. :P20:19
GAN900Stskeeps, can you imagine?20:20
IkarusxDaReaperx: NO20:20
StskeepsGAN900: imagine what?20:20
GAN900Picture where the iPhone is now20:20
t-tanxDaReaperx: on the wiki page you can read how to deinstall it in 1min20:20
GAN900Maemo 1 being like MeeGo20:20
GAN900But on a much wider range of devices and open20:20
Stskeepsand earlier than android..20:20
kwtmWhere *is* the iPhone, anyway?  Is the new iPhone 4 still tied to AT&T?  Does it have removable storage (e.g. microSD) yet?20:20
xDaReaperxwell i dunno about de install , i'm just trying to reinstall using the flasher20:20
Stskeepsbasically my point was about, what if maemo 1.0 had been fully open source.20:21
microlithkwtm: yet it is still tied, no support for SD cards.20:21
xDaReaperxi'm reading the updating the firmware wiki and reflashing it20:21
kwtmI normally don't care about the iPhone but I have to defend the N900 against these iPhone enthusiasts.20:21
IkarusStskeeps: differentiation, it wouldn't have been deemed sellable by Nokia commercial20:21
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t-tankwtm: but Apple has just invented Multitasking and videochat! it's so exciting ;->20:22
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kwtmt-tan: Yeah, and my colleague said: "Now it has FOLDERS!  Now I can put things into CATEGORIES!" lol20:23
JaffaStskeeps: Imagine if Maemo 1.0 was open source and came from anyone-but-Nokia (e.g. Apple or Google)20:23
GAN900w00t_, also, I'm not so much negative about what I see now, as much as all my optimism has been beaten out.20:23
GAN900(of me)20:23
w00t_GAN900: that's a shame, really20:24
Jaffakwtm: You need some damned awesome app to put N900 apps into categories :)20:24
GAN900w00t_, yeah, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens20:25
Meceoh noes not another iPhone discussion20:25
Jaffaw00t_: Don't worry, it'll happen to you too20:25
GAN900I just wish I actually had the drive to try to make it better.20:25
kwtmJaffa: Yeah, I had to blow $0.00 on this Catorize app to do that. :)20:25
GAN900What a ripoff20:25
Ikaruskwtm: well, I don't like how Catorize work20:25
w00t_Jaffa: I'm not that easy to break.. ask Stskeeps, he knows my masochistic tendancies20:25
Ikarusotoh, I am planning to rip it off :)20:26
w00t_GAN900: well, you still do obviously, because you're still doing things like writing that, and talking about it here, you still *do* care20:26
Mececategories are confusing.20:26
kwtmIkarus: I don't either, but it's better than before.20:26
IkarusI want custom catagories and be able to throw them into the groups I need20:26
kwtmIkarus: Please do!  I want to set categories of my own choosing, not the categories that were assigned previously.20:26
Ikarusexactly :)20:27
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JaffaGAN900:  :-p20:27
JaffaIkarWhat's re your idas?20:27
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GAN900Jaffa, I installed the stupid thing and it messed up my application menu!20:27
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JaffaIkarus/kwtm: You don't have to fork - I'mm happy to include that in Catorise. The only things neede are icons and a (Qt?) editor20:28
GAN900w00t_, I do care, but I don't have the energy to try seriously to work my way in from the mailroom in MeeGo and make constructive things happen20:28
DocScrutinizerdamn, is taskswitcher known to be a cpu hog? my device was almost too hot to do that call, after it sat there idling in taskswitcher for some hours (microb started as one of the running tasks, fwiw)20:28
GAN900Also harder because there isn't much demand for my sort of talents over there.20:28
w00t_GAN900: I was about to say - they're in a better starting position.. :)20:29
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w00t_I think (hope?) the future will be a lot clearer once the handset ux is out in the open20:29
IkarusJaffa: well, I really want the normal app UI, but with custom folders so I can dump stuff like games and utilities out of the main screen, so I am not sure how close that fits with Catorise20:29
kwtmIf I go through all of, have I exhausted all the (stable-enough-for-daily-use) maemo apps?  Or are there other "app catalogs" that I can browse through for more apps?20:30
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DocScrutinizerIkarus: +100 for catorize++20:30
JaffaIkarus: You want MyMenu. Apparently.20:30
GAN900Always with the hope and the future and the RSN. . . .20:30
StskeepsGAN900: where are you fighting for any area of contribution in meego atm? out of curiousity20:30
GAN900"But I want it now!"20:30
GAN900Stskeeps, nowhere currently.20:30
Jaffakwtm: That's everything. You can get stuck into the QA queue if you want to help get more apps in there.20:30
IkarusJaffa: that one didn't even work for me20:30
GAN900Stskeeps, helped a bit with the bz startup because Quim or somebody threw my name in there and with the forums.20:31
Stskeepsah, bugzilla20:31
GAN900So much has shifted into paid hands, though.20:31
JaffaIkarus: It's abandonware :-/20:31
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GAN900And unless it's code, I dunno where to start trying to push.20:31
GAN900(another problem with MeeGo losing enthusiasm)20:32
kwtmJaffa: Okay, time to break out the PyQT stuff so I can get some simple scripts/programs on my N900.  I need more customization.  Thx.20:32
IkarusJaffa: anyway, I might just for Catorise to make a sample, then we can see how/what we want to merge in20:32
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kwtmI still use Catorize.  I figure that, if I am not in the mood to use it, I just choose the category "All" and it goes back to having all the apps in one place.20:32
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kwtmBy "still" use Catorize I mean that I loaded it 2 days ago. :P20:33
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JaffaIkarus/kwtm: It'd be worth sharing the GUI editor, perhaps?20:33
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Mecehey you who care about which parts are open, can you tell me which parts of media player is open on N900?20:34
GAN900Stskeeps, I find it unfortunate that there hasn't been a more concerted effort to try to engage Maemo contributors.20:34
SpeedEvilgstreamer partially, ofr example20:34
DocScrutinizerIkarus: I got a personal howto on tweaking catorise conf files some months ago. It was a pain so I gave up on it. but probably you could add the configure feature without even touching catorise code20:34
GAN900But everything just sort of defaulted to Moblin20:34
infobotit has been said that closed is
JaffaIkarus: or, if nothing else the editor can have a "reset" option which lets you start from scratch. Leave the grunt work to /opt/catorise/catorise and the editor plays with /opt/catorise/menu file20:34
kwtmJaffa: what do you mean?  You speak as if I'm a programmer --don't scare me.  I left the software industry 12 years ago and now only know how to do Python (or C programs if they're less than 20 lines long).20:34
GAN900So you can talk about starting fresh with a new community and establishing merit blah blah blah20:34
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GAN900But the Moblin folks got a big boost up20:35
GAN900Which is discouraging for everybody who's not them.20:35
Jaffakwtm: Just brainstorming - same UI, different engines20:35
IkarusJaffa: hmhm, we'll see20:35
DocScrutinizerGAN900: ack20:35
StskeepsGAN900: well, that was the hope maemo community would help with, i would think - i mean, not many people have stood out in this initial phase20:36
Mecespeedevil, i was thinking about playlist generation/sorting is an open part.20:36
kwtmI see.  I like DocScrutinizer's idea of making it easy to configure Catorize, though.20:36
infobotMece meant: speedevil, i was thinking if playlist generation/sorting is an open part.20:36
Stskeepsand the internal wars of haven't helped either, i think20:36
xDaReaperxflashing my n900 now20:36
GAN900But why hasn't anybody stood out?20:36
xDaReaperxsays flashing done20:36
xDaReaperxerasing cmt20:37
GAN900I think there's more to it than just becuase "they suck"20:37
Mecegan900, in what context has noone stood out?20:37
StskeepsGAN900: there was also a problem that contribution agreement(wrong term) wasn't set up until late20:37
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Stskeepsat least with code20:37
kwtm#1 on my Wishlist is something to make text entry easier: on my Treo 650, there's an app for "double-tapping the key [on the keyboard] means capitalize, and holding down the key for 0.3 seconds is same as pressing the Alt key".20:37
xDaReaperxyes N900 workign again !20:37
GAN900Mece, talking about Maemo contributors not really stepping up to MeeGo20:38
GAN900Stskeeps, sure, but that's only a part of things.20:38
xDaReaperxDocScrutinizer : Thanks a lot man ! you helped me a lot ! N900 works again20:38
xDaReaperxtook hardly 1 min20:38
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: welcome20:38
kwtmxDaReaperx: Did your N900 enjoy seeing you expose your naked body?  (j/k.  "Flashing my n900 now")20:38
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Mecegan900, why would they? we've got the awesome maemo going here :D20:38
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GAN900As a Maemo contributor, I can't say the initial atmosphere felt particularly welcoming.20:38
xDaReaperxDocScrutinizer : The Dots are shown on the mobile , still not started fully20:39
kwtmGAN900: Were they cliquey?  And were there official Intel/Nokia people, or just community?20:39
Stskeepsdo a retrospective then while we all remember the troubles20:39
xDaReaperxshould i unplug the cable ?20:39
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: takes a while20:39
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: that's a fist-boot20:39
xDaReaperxyeah nokia hands come now20:39
DocScrutinizerfirst even20:39
Mecewell to me, maemo feels comfortable, and meego feels cold and industrial :)20:39
xDaReaperxnow it shows to set reginal settings20:39
xDaReaperxoh lol20:39
crashanddiefist boot. I wonder...20:39
GAN900Mece, aye20:39
JaffaGANThere's so much discouragement (and ignoring of suggestions) that it's soul destroying. Not checked to see if it's different in the forums recently.20:40
crashanddieI quite liked MeeGo on the tablet20:40
Jaffai.e. "we'll have the mailing list for official comms, and the forum for end-users"20:40
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: I knew you lke it XP20:40
DocScrutinizerlike, damn20:40
crashanddieJaffa: how is that different from Maemo, really?20:40
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GAN900Jaffa, yup.20:40
Mecegan900, then again, maemo is at a much higher level than meego, at least I feel intimidated by the unfinished nature. easier with maemo.20:40
GAN900crashanddie, define "Maemo"20:41
crashanddieJaffa: maemo has been like that for ages. Real discussions went on on the mailing lists, and then at some point an announcement was made (officially or not) on TMO20:41
t-tanGAN900: I won't have a look a MeEgo before it is somewhat useable on my N90020:41
Stskeepsdo keep in mind in meego that it's not a democracy, as in, someone does have a last word, or disputes can be taken to people higher in hierarchy20:41
GAN900Yeah, the TSG20:42
Stskeepsie, i might disagree with release engineering but there's a dispute path20:42
crashanddieJaffa: hire me20:42
Jaffacrashanddie: yeah, so we pointed out the problems that caused on and.... were just plain ignored20:42
GAN900Which doesn't bother to do its homework20:42
GAN900and cancels meetings with amazingly short notice half the time20:42
MohammadAG51<crashanddie> Jaffa: hire me20:42
Jaffacrashanddie: where I work? I wouldn't do that to you :(20:43
MohammadAG51wow, I guess i could be convinced to go to meego20:43
crashanddieJaffa & GAN900: I think we may have put ourselves in that situation20:43
GAN900crashanddie, which situation?20:44
crashanddieJaffa & GAN900: the whole .deb vs .rpm continuous and unending debates, trolls and discussions basically yelled one big message to anyone who has @intel or @nokia in their email address: They're nitpicking instead of trying to move forward. Everytime a decision will have to be made, we'll lose 2 weeks in useless debates until we've convinced every single noisy person.20:44
Stskeepsi wouldn't have minded council to stand together and collaborated20:44
Stskeepsappear as one and drag suggestions from consitutients20:45
crashanddieJaffa: nha, you, yourself. You're plenty rich. Gimme a bit of your children's inheritance and we're set. I'll also do some work.20:45
sjgadsbyRPM vs DEB was an embarrassment, but the micromanagement in MeeGo is smothering.20:45
t-tancrashanddie: they should have learned that "decide behind closed doors and don't communicate the arguments" doesn't work in a democracy20:46
GAN900that shit takes place everywher20:46
GAN900It's hardly anything new20:46
Triztwas it flameware like?20:46
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GAN900and if you want to claim to be "open", trolls and insane people are something you have to cope with20:46
xDaReaperxall my apps are uninstalled after flashing lol , gotta install the important ones and this time i gotta be really carefull20:46
GAN900Also: Howdy, sjgadsby. :J20:46
sjgadsbyHi, GAN900.20:47
Stskeepst-tan: except it is clearly not a democracy, just like the linux kernel isn't20:47
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GAN900t-tan, s/democracy/open distribution20:48
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mece1GAN900, you need a trailing /20:48
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t-tanon the continuum of autocracy - democracy it's definitely not going on the latter end20:49
mece_GAN900, you need a trailing /20:49
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GAN900mece1, I know, but I only use it when I actually want infobot to help out.20:49
t-tanMece: yes, I'm waiting for it, too. otherwise I can't parse it :)20:49
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t-tanMeEgo = Stalinux? :)20:50
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Stskeepswhile this may upset some people, at least with MeeGo it seems like it's not about endless discussions, it's about actually doing something.20:51
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Stskeepswhich i can't say that we were in - it was limited how much work was actually performed as a community20:51
Stskeepsthere are, of course, good examples.20:51
RST38hBTW, is Quim still visiting
RST38hOr is it out of his scope of responsibility nowadays?20:53
DocScrutinizermece_: t-tan: s)gadsby ?20:53
Stskeepsyes, he peeks in quite often20:53
Stskeepshe's probably just as tired of tmo as the rest of us20:53
sjgadsbyRST38h: He left comments this morning and said he'd be back later today.20:53
microlithcan someone ban PradaBrada and delete his worthless posts?20:53
RST38hah, cool20:53
mece_DocScrutinizer, i believe that was aimed at the smiley at the end.20:53
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* RST38h kinda thought has been abandoned now20:54
RST38hmicrolith: Would you also like someone to spank him with extreme prejudice? =)20:54
sjgadsbyRST38h: "No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded."20:54
GAN900w00t_, official helps with perception, it maintains inertia and it doesn't kill enthusiasm.20:55
* mece_ still likes maemo.org20:55
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RST38hsjgadsby: twue enough20:55
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RST38hMotorola Planning 2GHz Android Phone For Later This Year20:57
sjgadsbymicrolith: We may begin using an infractions system at t.m.o soon. I'm hopeful it will help.20:58
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* mece_ wants more of these kind of things:
mece_RST38h, does it run meego?20:59
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RST38hmece: Android? No.20:59
RST38hsjgadsby: Are you an admin at tmo?20:59
sjgadsbyRST38h: super moderator, not admin.21:00
mece_RST38h, just kidding. I don't want android, but I'd like the hardware for maemo or meego :)21:00
fralsbug #1065421:00
povbotBug Strategic projections do not save images from MMS-and memory and can not see the number or name of the sender.21:00
RST38hsjgadsby: Can I ask for a feature?21:00
fralscan anyone explain that to me?21:00
sjgadsbyRST38h: I can't implement features.21:00
RST38hsjgadsby: Can you insist on someone else implementing features?21:00
FIQis there an easier way to refresh km and hour counter for a way other than cleanup, search and set it again?21:01
FIQ@ maps21:01
sjgadsbyRST38h: No. Reggie's the only admin, and he's hard to get even a reply from, even as a moderator.21:01
andrewfblackRST38h: Super Mods can hardly ask let alone insist :)21:01
RST38hsjgadsby: <sigh>21:02
andrewfblackRST38h: what feature were you wanting?21:02
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RST38handrew: "Do not show threads started by people whose accounts are younger than X months"21:03
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cehtehwhere X=12?21:04
RST38hcehteh: I would let the user choose X, and maybe make a few other tweaks21:04
t-tanStskeeps: what do you think are the odds for #931421:05
Stskeepsbug 931421:05
povbotBug relicense BME21:05
ptlvoice changer for n90021:05
ptlthat would be useful. And creeepy21:06
t-tanwould it be possible give some developers access to the source?21:06
Stskeepst-tan: short story: no way in hell, long story: DocScrutinizer is talking to the nokia guys21:06
Surfaptl, how would it work?21:06
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RST38hvoice chaRger for N900 would be creepy indeed21:06
ptlSurfa: change pitch and formants and some other elements of speech on-the-fly21:06
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t-tanStskeeps: ok, thx21:07
xDaReaperxwow my N900 is heating up real bad21:07
andrewfblackRST38h: I'm not not even sure I've seen an addon to block users by account created date21:07
RST38handrew: Not looking to block them, just hide their threads21:08
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RST38handrew: I mean, we are all nice liberal and democratic, cannot ban people by arbitrary parameter21:09
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: t-tan: well I *tried* to talk to them. No idea if there'll ever be an answer beyond "I have to do internal queries first"21:09
andrewfblackRST38h: either way I'm not sure it can be done also what if a new dev joins and creates really cool software you might miss it21:09
RST38handrew: Which of course does not mean one cannot *ignore* them ;)21:09
sjgadsbyRST38h: Even if Reggie didn't object to the idea of the feature, it sounds like custom code, which pretty effectively kills it.21:09
dr34mdamn that akku is annoying had to charge it 3 times today already :o21:09
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: you're much further than most people have been in the later years, so21:09
RST38handrew: I am ok taking a chance with that new developer, there are other ways to find out21:10
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: an occasional poke general direction hah won't hurt, if you incidentally run into him21:10
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: :nod:21:10
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Stskeepsman, PradaBada is a troll21:12
andrewfblackRST38h: just did a quick search and couldn't find any vbulletin plugins for it so I would say it can't be done.  but like sjgadsby said even if we found a plugin for it as Super Mod it takes weeks sometimes for him to reply to us.21:13
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t-tanStskeeps: how many people are authorised to talk the Guardian of BME? :)21:14
andrewfblackanyone remember the name of the program for N8x0 that would let you connect your N8x0 to a cell phone over bluetooth then put internet access out over wifi?21:14
xDaReaperxdoes extended call log work for anyone ? it just crashes for me21:15
FIQabout maemo.org21:15
FIQinteresting huh21:15
Stskeepst-tan: i've met the guardian of bme21:15
IkarusStskeeps: kidnap him21:15
Ikarusthen torture him to get him to reveal the secrets21:15
BCMM_xDaReaperx: works here21:16
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xDaReaperxi dunno it just shuts for me21:17
xDaReaperxnever worked for me even before21:17
t-tanif something happens to him all Nokia batteries will break. he probably has to live in an atomic shelter... :)21:17
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: if you want to modify bme i can do it for you21:29
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i've spent last week trying to understand how it works and what is where21:29
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: we don't want to modify it though, we want to get a FOSS replacement21:30
crashanddieFIQ: you need to shut down some tabs21:30
jacekowskiwell, then you can ask how does bme work21:30
jacekowskii'll have to document that21:30
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: nevertheless any knowledge sharing highly welcome21:30
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: please visit jrbme.garage21:31
ptljacekowski: would it be appropriate to document it on ?21:31
t-tanjacekowski: cool. is it possible to temporarily disable some operations of bme?21:31
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t-tani.e. without shutting down bme21:31
SpeedEvilnot easily.21:32
jacekowskinot by bme itself21:32
SpeedEvilPossible if you for example jam a ld_preload or kernel shim layer in there21:32
DocScrutinizerI suggest not to spread about details too much, as we don't want to see Nokia feel uncomfortable with some ""potentially hazardous"" info and maybe even code emerging21:32
xDaReaperxofftopic : anyone watching the world cup ?21:32
SpeedEvilxDaReaperx: I'm fairly certain some are.21:33
SpeedEvilI'm not.21:33
prontoxDaReaperx: there is a #archlinux-offtopic :p21:33
andrewfblackwill N900 do adhoc networking?21:33
jacekowskit-tan: there is only one function in bme code that acctualy writes over i2c21:33
xDaReaperxlol ok21:33
jacekowskit-tan: when it's running21:33
jacekowskit-tan: and that function can be easily patched21:34
SpeedEvilandrewfblack: yes21:34
BCMM_andrewfblack: yes21:34
FIQ<crashanddie> FIQ: you need to shut down some tabs21:34
andrewfblackthen I guess I found a way to get internet access at work to bad I'm going to have to carry 3 devices all the time21:35
BCMM_andrewfblack: and there is an application for sharing your 3g connection over an adhoc21:35
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andrewfblackBCMM_: problem is N900 doesn't have any cell connection at work I'm going to have to bridge my second phone to my N900 thought my N81021:36
* andrewfblack so wishes it was possible to connect his N900 to his work network21:37
crashanddieFIQ: amazingly powerful retort. You should join a debate team.21:37
jpinx-eeepcandrewfblack: what's stopping you?21:38
andrewfblackjpinx-eeepc: crazy security setup that from what I can figure out only windows can connect to21:38
jpinx-eeepcAh - ok. Maybe try samba?21:39
* SpeedEvil points andrewfblack to win95+dosbox21:39
andrewfblackSpeedEvil: would that work?21:39
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t-tanjacekowski: would it be difficult to implement some dbus option for bme that can put the i2c function into r/o mode?21:40
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jacekowskit-tan: it would be easier to do over dsme interface21:41
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andrewfblackjpinx-eeepc: problem is WEP key is assigned by server and Radius server verifys who I am using login and cert.  Windows has an option to let Server assign WEP Linux doesn't21:41
SpeedEvilandrewfblack: Probably not. No wifi driver21:41
SpeedEvilWEP crackker21:41
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: most parts of Nokia still seem to believe messing with BME will turn your N900 into a little bomb. Patching BME won't help to convince them about anything different. I suggest you don't discuss such hacks too publicly21:41
andrewfblackSpeedEvil: I prefer not to break in lol21:42
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: enroll.exe - google will help21:42
t-tanjacekowski: dsme is undocumented and closed as well, correct?21:43
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jacekowskit-tan: yes21:43
jacekowskit-tan: then there is bme interface as well21:43
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jacekowskibut as DocScrutinizer noticed patching bme isn't very good idea21:44
jacekowskibut there are workarounds21:44
jacekowskilike LD_PRELOAD21:44
DocScrutinizerand there's a bit of safety measures taken in BME as well (and in DSME), and that is much more interesting than mere charging. As we know how to charge, we don't need to RE BME for that21:45
jacekowskibut bme is doing fuck all really21:45
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: what part are you interested in?21:45
t-tanyes, but that would require messing with the boot scripts....21:45
DocScrutinizertemperature monitoring and overtemp handling, e.g.21:45
jacekowskit-tan: or restarting bme after boot21:46
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jacekowskit-tan: so you start phone with clean bme21:46
jacekowskit-tan: then you restart it21:46
jacekowskit-tan: with LD_PRELOAD21:46
DocScrutinizerthat's really easy, what's the problem in doing a simple "stop bme" for now?21:46
t-tanjacekowski: for some reason restarting bme that crashes my device21:46
jacekowskit-tan: you have to do it by doing stop bme21:47
DocScrutinizert-tan: then you fsckd it up ;-P21:47
jacekowskit-tan: otherwise upstart will detect it and send info to dsme21:47
t-tanyes, I do "stop bme"21:47
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t-tan..with non-stock kernel, which we need for USBhost anyway21:48
DocScrutinizert-tan isn't happy until he solved the issue on kernel domain level XP21:48
DocScrutinizert-tan: it works with stock kernel 1.1.1 and 1.2 as well as with MohammadAG51's patched version21:49
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MohammadAG51oh, nvm21:50
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: if it doesn't work for you, I strongly recommend to sort out the issue - but not by patching BME21:50
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DocScrutinizert-tan:  if it doesn't work for you, I strongly recommend to sort out the issue - but not by patching BME21:50
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MohammadAG51riiight, back to wc21:51
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t-tanMohammadAG51: yep, don't patch BME!!21:51
DocScrutinizertoilet? :-P21:51
andrewfblackI'm not going to give up on N900 at owkr for another month or so then I'm just going to order a for work21:51
MohammadAG51World Cup xD21:51
t-tanMohammadAG51: on the toilet? :)21:52
MohammadAG51no XP21:52
xDaReaperxoh lol21:53
MohammadAG51anyone else watching it?21:53
xDaReaperxyeah me21:53
MohammadAG51i'm still waiting for a ad21:53
MohammadAG51did anyone get it in there?21:54
t-tanDocScrutinizer: bme fails if enable more features, which means it's very instable21:54
DocScrutinizeryou bet it is21:54
t-tanMohammadAG51: is there an App for it?21:54
DocScrutinizerseems to be *mega-ugly* poorly written code21:54
MohammadAG51t-tan, you could've stopped before "if"21:54
MohammadAG51t-tan, nope21:55
t-tanI know, Big MEss21:55
MohammadAG51not an official app21:55
t-tanMohammadAG51: thx21:55
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kaudiocan i conect usb modem in n810 ?21:56
jacekowskieverything that don't need more than 200mA21:58
jacekowskiand has linux drivers21:58
kaudiohow conect usb modem in n810 ?21:59
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jacekowskihmm n81021:59
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DocScrutinizerenable hostmode with usb hostmode app, plug in externally powered hub, plug modem to hub22:02
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GAN900Goddamn I'm tired of having to reboot this thing like it's Windows 9822:03
DocScrutinizeryou'll need an adapter USB-F2F, to plug the hub upstream cable to the Nokia CA-101 cable22:03
DocScrutinizerGAN900: O.o22:03
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DocScrutinizer""you moved the mouse pointer. Please reboot to put the change to effect""22:05
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DocScrutinizer(sorry for poor back-xlation)22:05
GAN900It starts to become slooooooowww22:05
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DocScrutinizermemleak or cpu hog?22:06
DocScrutinizeror something really nasty?22:06
t-tanDocScrutinizer: "please click here to save your changes and to reboot"22:06
DocScrutinizert-tan: thanks :-D22:06
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ptl/etc/event.d/reboot start on startup22:08
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DocScrutinizerptl: sounds like a nice idea :-D22:09
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, probably memleak22:10
GAN900I haven't done any investigation yet though22:10
DocScrutinizerGAN900: blame microb/flash22:10
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DocScrutinizerflash is proven to be leaky22:10
DocScrutinizerGAN900: watch a 30s youtube, keep browser window open for a day ->fscked22:11
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MohammadAG51same with javascript22:12
DocScrutinizerhmm, prolly22:12
DocScrutinizertbh I never faced that "gets slow after days" issue. Just that "freezes on inbound call, after keeping open microb"22:13
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DocScrutinizerand that only on "special" sites, where some crap js/flash is displayed22:14
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konfoohot damn i just love fixing broken erlang installs22:14
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: what do you specificaly want to know about these protections?22:14
DocScrutinizerso probably 90% of "commercial" pages22:14
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: how they work, what sensors they use, when they are triggered22:15
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DocScrutinizerthere's roundabout half a dozen temperature sensors inside N900 - that I know of22:16
SpeedEvilthe one in the SoC is mentioned as 'don't use'22:16
SpeedEvilby TI22:17
DocScrutinizeralso other protective messures highly interesting22:17
SpeedEvilno, I diddn't save the link to the forum22:17
DocScrutinizerlike "general battery error" - whatever the triggering cause might be22:17
DocScrutinizerBSI (the ADC in twl4030)22:18
DocScrutinizerhow is it used?22:18
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RST38hDoc: Got a list of /sys entries?22:21
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ptlhowdy ho!22:22
maddlerwake up, lazy bummers!22:22
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: especially BSI - as there's a lot of fuzz and legends around that one. Could be everything from NTC temp sensor inside battery to cell chemistry indicator to "just used for no special purpose, as it's there"22:22
maddlerButchered Smoothly Inside22:22
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: the third contact of battery22:22
DocScrutinizersupposedly Battery Size Indicator22:22
DocScrutinizerRST38h: of what exactly?22:23
xDaReaperxi tried the roadrunner app , dosent seem to work lol , hope i dont get caught speeding22:23
RST38hDoc: Of all the temperature sensors of course!22:23
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: you are talking about thingy connected to pin named BSI22:24
DocScrutinizerRST38h: I guess most of then aren't used at all, probably none of them is exposed to /sys22:24
DocScrutinizeryep, jacekowski22:24
RST38hDoc: shame22:24
jacekowskihmm that's going to be fun22:24
jacekowskithere is nothing about it in datasheed22:24
GAN900lol, resounding endorsement from Reggie22:24
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: I gather it's going to a A/D inside twl4030 GAIA22:25
RST38hBSI = Blowing to Shit Immediately22:25
RST38hWhen you see a logical "1" there, RUN.22:25
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i do know that22:25
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: but i have no idea which one22:25
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i'm using tps65950 datasheet that's supposed to be pin compatible22:26
jacekowskibut c10 on that is a ground22:26
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RST38hWilder Publication is under fire for putting warning labels on copies of historical US documents, including the Constitution. The label warns "This book is a product of its time and does not reflect the same values as it would if it were written today."22:27
DocScrutinizerSorry, seems I'm missing a bit. Thought I remember it's routed to GAIA, but actually scanning the schem it runs to GAZOO (modem)22:27
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: ^^^22:27
MouseyRST38h: they should put that label on bibles22:27
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jacekowskido we have any ida what gazoo is?22:28
RST38hMousey: they will rather put the Constitution title on the bible22:28
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and bme isn't talking to anything except two bq chips and twl403022:29
t-tanMousey: they will put "Warning: this it the truth" labels on the bible22:29
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: yes, there's another "battery temp sensor" on GAIA ADCIN022:29
RST38hjacekowski: Gazoo is a really lousy Martian from a cartoon22:30
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: so the question is: does BME or DSME talk to the modem - maybe the modem's drivers whatever they are?22:30
xDaReaperxthere's an actual Temperature monitor for N900 ?22:30
DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx: dozens :-P22:30
xDaReaperxhmm name a good one22:31
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DocScrutinizerxDaReaperx:  yes, there's another "battery temp sensor" on GAIA ADCIN022:31
xDaReaperxhmm okay22:31
DocScrutinizerone is inside LYSTII LP5523 LED controller chip22:31
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xDaReaperxso much and i never knew lol22:32
DocScrutinizerone is inside bq24150 bat charger chip (probably used bot not exported to sys)22:32
RST38hDoc: sneaky, they really expected the led controller to overheat22:32
RST38hDoc: They need a bigger led!22:33
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: nope, it's for calibrating LED current to compensate fro changing efficiency of LEDs over temp22:33
xDaReaperxany applications that can actually read the temperatures ?22:33
t-tanMousey: yes, I think I have watched that thriller movie recently ;-)22:33
* RST38h thought that was only true for led lasers22:34
RST38hnormal led stuff isn't very sensitive to temperature22:34
jacekowskixDaReaperx: well, you can read it from /dev/twl4030-madc22:34
xDaReaperxhmm okay22:34
DocScrutinizeranyway, you *can* calibrate a temp-coefficient to compensate for that22:35
xDaReaperxlike ?22:35
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pupniknokia, please give n9 better speakers than n900)22:35
DocScrutinizerpupnik: I don't think N900 speakers are particularly bad22:36
RST38hpupnik: is it ok if n9 runs Symbian^3?22:36
* RST38h ducks22:36
tripzeron8 runs symbian, i thought n9 was going to be a meego device?22:36
RST38hnobody ever said that22:36
xDaReaperxwell could be that the N9 would run meego  , but its never sure22:36
greenflyI don't think anyone ever says anything until the day something is released22:37
xDaReaperxor a prototype ^22:37
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RST38hah, hello, konttori22:38
DocScrutinizerplease pointers to N9! never heard of...22:38
RST38hDoc: google?22:38
RST38hDoc: (there are not many though, nothing to look at)22:39
DocScrutinizerkonttori: Hi :-)22:39
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GAN900MeeGo's actually just Nokia conning us into directing our energy somewhere22:39
GAN900They're never actually shipping a product. :P22:39
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RST38hYou never know22:39
RST38hMaybe they will ship a netbook!22:40
GAN900DocScrutinizer, stupid house digram on Engadget.22:40
fralsso where in finland would i go to get some tiger balm?22:40
* RST38h ducks even harder22:40
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GAN900frals, I could sell you some and mail it. :P22:40
pupnikDocScrutinizer: the existence os software speaker protection indicates they do not perform up to spec22:40
t-tanwhat does the chimney mean?22:40
fralsGAN900: thanks but err, it be faster to get someone back home in sweden to mail it i assume ;)22:40
t-tansmoking hot device?22:40
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timophfrals: the pharmacy?22:41
DocScrutinizerpupnik: not really, the problem is we got a class-D amp with no highpass filter to get rid of DC/LF22:41
xDaReaperxThis is weird , my phone is up to date , but now when i browse to it says you need to update maemo22:41
fralsapotekki or whatever its called? ;o22:41
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timophapteekki :)22:41
pupnikDocScrutinizer: if the speakers need lf filter to not break, it should be designed in the pcb22:42
pupnikwhy are we even discussing this22:42
timophnot sure if they sell it but it's good place to start asking22:42 down?22:42
DocScrutinizerpupnik: ack, but it wasn't22:42
fralsah, think i have that across the street22:42
xDaReaperxwait is down ?22:42
fralscheers timoph22:42
xDaReaperxwont load22:42
pupnikDocScrutinizer: i am curious to learn the reason for xprot22:42
timophyep. waiting for maemo.org22:43
pupnikDocScrutinizer: listening to n810 now. volume is sufficient22:43
xDaReaperxmaemo loads now22:43
DocScrutinizerwell, I'm not any wiser than you about Nokia's internal bugtracker and the details. But it's obvious there is a LF/DC issue in the circuit22:43
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DocScrutinizerbut that doesn't mean the AMP is *not* too strong for the speakers, nevertheless I like it better this way round than the other which would mean amp is clipping before speakers porform up to their full power22:46
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DocScrutinizerso wrt that your N900 is in no way diferent to your home stereo22:47
DocScrutinizerjust for your home stereo *you* are the limiter usually ;-P22:48
DocScrutinizerwhile for N900 we need one in software22:48
xDaReaperxmy N900 firmware is up to date , but when i go to the ovi store it says you need to update your firmware22:48
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DocScrutinizerjust forget ovi22:49
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xDaReaperxwhy ?22:50
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DocScrutinizerbecause it seems ovi store is utterly useless for N90022:51
lbtSpeedEvil:  :) thanks22:51
lbtmece_: you too22:51
xDaReaperxhmm ok22:52
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DocScrutinizer++ for texrat22:55
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ptlit's useless for me at least22:55
ptlI'd like to buy QuickPanorama22:56
ptlbut I can't22:56
ptlnot supported for my country22:56
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lbthow do I type swedish into an N900 with a uk keyb?22:58
pupnikn810 screen size is better22:59
MohammadAG51swap em22:59
GAN900DocScrutinizer, did you just read that post?22:59
pupniki have  a great dpad design23:00
DocScrutinizerjust skipped to the thread you started on tmo23:00
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, ah, do read the whole of his article.23:03
DocScrutinizerthe cryptotabula?23:04
DocScrutinizerI did23:04
ZogGMohammadAG51, say wat?23:05
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ecksunis there a way to find out if the GPS is in use or if the phone uses cell ids or something similar to determin the location?23:13
microlithif the GPS goes active, there's a satellite dish icon in the notification area23:14
ecksunyes, but even if i use nonstattelitepositioningmethods the dish appears23:14
ecksunIm developing with qtmobility - location23:15
microlithhm, no tsure23:15
crashanddiestattelite positioning methods?23:15
crashanddiewhat the fuck is stattelite?23:15
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ecksuncrashanddie, a typo23:15
crashanddieyou meant satellite?23:16
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crashanddiedamn, that's a serious typo bro23:16
ecksunindeed, never the less my question still remains :)23:16
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: if you are interested it's very simple to read from twl403023:17
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: I know. The question is what BME does with it23:17
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jacekowskinot a lot23:17
jacekowskithere is one function that's used to read from it 00015D8423:18
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jacekowskiand there are couple calls to it and these calls read ADCs: 4,9,0,1223:19
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b-mandid you guys see this?
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mece_lbt, huh, what?23:24
* mece_ was watching the game.23:25
mece_b-man, yeah, I tested some demos, and it was pretty cool.23:25
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jacekowskihmm i just said 023:27
lbtmece_: testing shopper23:27
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lbtalthough annoyingly someone had a bug wrt utf-8 and I fixed it...23:27
lbtso I'm debating pushing the fixed version...23:28
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhis there a minimal browser for maemo or a minimal mode for fennec - so I can use mobile sites faster (I'm assuming it loads the full site in fennec)23:30
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mece_lbt, I suggest pushing the fixed version right away and making a [maemo5] announce thread with a link to the testing page. I don't think you ever actually announced the app for N900.23:31
lbtOK :)23:31
lbtit's a weekend23:31
CutMeOwnThroathow do you save the current time to the hardware-clock?23:31
mece_lbt, :D23:32
CutMeOwnThroatthat's not in my maemo... anyway, isn't that pc-hardware only?23:32
lbtUsage: hwclock [-r|--show] [-s|--hctosys] [-w|--systohc] [-l|--localtime] [-u|--utc] [-f FILE]23:32
lbton my n900?23:32
lbtfrom busybox23:33
CutMeOwnThroatwell, N810 here23:33
jacekowskiCutMeOwnThroat: all devices have rtc23:33
lbtwell now... it doesn't work on an Atari either ;)23:33
* lbt ducks23:33
CutMeOwnThroatjacekowski, with what you mean what exactly?23:33
jacekowskiRTC- real time clock23:33
jacekowskithat's what hwclock is manipulating23:33
CutMeOwnThroati got the abbreviation, I just don't know what you mean23:33
jacekowski22:32 < CutMeOwnThroat> that's not in my maemo... anyway, isn't that pc-hardware only?23:34
CutMeOwnThroatso hwclock would work if I had it23:34
jacekowskijust stating that it isn't pc only23:34
jacekowskihwclock can access clock in 2 ways23:34
jacekowskione is pc way23:34
jacekowskiwhich is default one23:34
jacekowskianother is trough kernel driver23:35
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jacekowskiand /dev/rtc23:35
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jacekowskior it's other way round23:35
mece_lcuk, aahaha I just got what "feature creep" meant. And you're right. Although I think the filename extension is a pretty good feature and I've cursed the lack of it many times.23:35
mece_wait, omg lcuk is not here!23:36
CutMeOwnThroathm, in lenny, hwclock is supposed to be in util-linux, which is not in diablo (I'm supposing it hasn't migrated between packages since etch)23:36
jacekowskithat looks interesting23:36
CutMeOwnThroatso how does the N810 ever set the hardware clock?23:36
DocScrutinizerprobably the usual GUi / system ways to set time deal with setting RTC, on diablo23:37
CutMeOwnThroatI noticed that if I run ntpd and adjust the time, it'll be wrong again after the device was switched off23:37
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: that looks interesting23:37
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: it's reading adc 423:37
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jacekowskiret: 0 status: 0 result: 46923:38
ljsdofuynsdfufuhis there an automated way to install lots of stuff from the package manager other than one-by-one?23:38
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MiXu-Yes. I'm not sure how it works but the backup/restore function utilizes that.23:38
ljsdofuynsdfufuhoh, you mean use the cmd line rather than the gui?23:39
MiXu-apt from command line is prolly easier solution :)23:39
DocScrutinizerstrongly discouraged, but yes23:39
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: that's for sure interesting, but needs further investigation otherwise is quite obscure and meaningless23:40
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meceljsdofuynsdfufuh, yeah apt ftw. Also, a good way for getting help is to change your nick to something shorter and easier to type :P23:41
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meceCutMeOwnThroat, well I suppose you can cause some damage with apt if you don't know what you're doing ;)23:42
CutMeOwnThroatlike what?23:42
jacekowskihmm BSI isn't a temperature23:43
jacekowskithat's for sure23:43
CutMeOwnThroatI think you'll do damage by adding weird stuff to your sources.list independent of if you use the gui thingy or apt-get23:43
jacekowskiunless it's working in reverse23:43
DocScrutinizerwhy not23:43
meceCutMeOwnThroat, well.. if you do apt-get remove libhildonfm2 for example, which I did recently, and ignore the gigantic list of stuff listed under "these will be removed" you'll have some trouble :)23:44
jacekowskiwell, i'm reading 29 on really warm phone23:44
jacekowskiand colder phone was reading 38-3923:44
DocScrutinizeras mentioned before these are usually NTC, which means Ohms drop with rising temp23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhmece, you know you can just push tab after the first few chars and it fills in the name23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhspeaking of tab, where is it on the n90023:44
CutMeOwnThroatmece, that's a lot of ifs :)23:44
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh: OMG23:44
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh: thanks :D23:44
jacekowskiwell, i'll have to find that code in bme23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhsuddenly everything is easier23:44
crashanddieljsdofuynsdfufuh: could you use a real nick, please?23:44
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh: but I like to use , instead of :23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhyep, I've 'puter skills; time to get phone skills23:45
mececrashanddie: well yours isn't the best one either :P23:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuhjust bought the n90023:45
crashanddiemece: no, but at least it means something23:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwonder if there is a guide somewhere to initial tricking it out23:45
mececrashanddie: tru dat.23:45
infobotmece meant: crashanddie: true dat.23:45
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: yes, the compares against certain limits, that's what is interesting, and what exactly are those limits23:46
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwhat do you all use instead of kismet on the maemo23:46
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh: what kind of tricking are you thinking about?23:46
ljsdofuynsdfufuhfor gps/hotspots23:46
meceljsdofuynsdfufuh: nothing.23:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhtricking, just getting used to all of the possible features etc23:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthat's odd23:47
MohammadAG51BlessN900 is kinda weird23:47
MohammadAG51it replaces the camera driver23:47
crashanddieMohammadAG51: yeah, I don't know what to think of it23:47
crashanddieMohammadAG51: apparently they're in the process of patenting a shitload of idaes23:48
crashanddiethough the results are marginal at best23:48
ljsdofuynsdfufuhhow do you manage all of the apps you guys have installed?23:48
crashanddieand their website is ridiculous.23:48
ljsdofuynsdfufuhjust call them everytime via cmdline?23:48
meceMohammadAG51: what is BlessN900?23:48
MohammadAG51mece, a camera app which makes it magical23:49
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: like "bme stops charging, when readout of ADCIN4 in GAIA (0xF0, adr xy, blah) is <4711" - then write that down and post to jrbme forum or wiki about bme23:49
MohammadAG51and takes "HDR" pics23:49
crashanddieljsdofuynsdfufuh: please change your nickname, I've sent you a private message, and you've been asked twice in this very channel. Next stop for