IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-06-11

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alterego	joker_89: still pretty unlikely you're going to find any here O_O	00:07
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alterego	Though, I have actually used it myself ... :D	00:07
MohammadAG51	same, but i only made a restard app :P	00:08
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MohammadAG51	t*	00:08
joker_89	but nobodoy use it?	00:09
MohammadAG51	nope, i switched to pygtk and pyQt	00:09
MohammadAG51	the latter was a big mistake	00:09
crashanddie	joker_89: this channel is about maemo, nothing to do with s60	00:09
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: not a fan of pyqt?	00:09
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, the whole Qt thing annoys me	00:10
MohammadAG51	why do you think i'm sooo negative about MeeGo	00:10
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, tbh, I'd like that my apps actually output errors, instead of segfaulting (yes, pyQt apps segfault)	00:11
crashanddie	haha	00:12
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mece	yeah why don't we get errors on pyqt apps?	00:12
MohammadAG51	cause Qt is C (or C++ not sure)	00:13
mece	I really like to work with pyqt, but the lack of information when things go pear-shaped is truly annoying	00:13
mece	c++	00:13
mece	what's gtk then?	00:13
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MohammadAG51	<mece> I really like to work with pyqt, but the lack of information when things go pear-shaped is truly annoying	00:14
MohammadAG51	exactly	00:14
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mece	:)	00:14
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mece	if I have a symlink, s and that points to a file, f. What happens if f is overwritten with another f? The symlink stays put, right?	00:19
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Wolfie	afaik, the symlink stays even if the file is removed	00:22
Wolfie	hence, symbolic link	00:22
Wolfie	a hard link is another matter	00:22
mece	...yes :)	00:22
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Wolfie	anyways, night	00:23
Jaffa	GTK HELP! If I have a GtkContainer with set_size_request_policy(...CHILDREN) and a GtkHBox underneath it; how can I stop the button at the right hand side of the HBox (and the HBox itself) growing if the first container (a treeview) isn't showing anything?	00:23
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alterego	Can't believe how cheap N900's are going for now ..	00:24
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alterego	If I just waited a couple of months :/	00:24
tripzero	how much?	00:24
tripzero	the one i wanted sold for 405 on ebay	00:24
tripzero	used though	00:24
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alterego	Yeah, about the same.	00:24
alterego	Is that USD?	00:25
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tripzero	Jaffa, why gtk? qt is the new coolaid	00:25
lbt	Jaffa: simple... http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6	00:25
tripzero	alterego, yeah, usd	00:25
Jaffa	tripzero: Because the app already exists.	00:25
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tripzero	you could probably rewrite it faster in qt than to make it work using gtk	00:25
tripzero	:P	00:25
lbt	Jaffa: porting is a great way to learn Qt	00:25
DocScrutinizer51	wtf? 40 qud?	00:26
DocScrutinizer51	quid	00:26
lbt	and it's surprisingly therapeutic	00:26
mece	jaffa, wait.. it's in the packing	00:26
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alterego	lbt: there's porting and then there's rewriting :P	00:26
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Jaffa	lbt: Now's not the time for this port ;-)	00:26
lbt	ah, good point... I used gtkmm	00:26
* lbt sobs at the memory		00:26
tripzero	haha	00:26
alterego	Heh	00:26
tripzero	lbt: i bet you are still trying to clean it out of you?	00:27
* lbt goes back to his happy place		00:27
mece	jaffa, start_pack(item, expand, fill, spacing)	00:27
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mece	jaffa you want the treeview to have both expand and fill set to 1 and the button to have both set to 0.	00:28
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Jaffa	mece: Thanks - I was on the right lines, there's a level missing I think. Hang on.	00:29
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mece	jaffa you might need to put another box inside the hbox or something. I always end up with a bunch of hboxes and vboxes inside eachother.	00:31
Jaffa	mece: Yeah, putting the HBox packed and not expanding into a new VBox seems to have done it. Although my button seems to be being constrained and truncated by some padding	00:32
* DocScrutinizer51 burrps		00:32
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MohammadAG51	alterego, what's the dbus-send command that's needed to get the song's name?	00:39
alterego	MohammadAG51: good question. Hang on :P	00:40
MohammadAG51	thanks :)	00:40
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alterego	MohammadAG51: it looks complicated	00:41
DocScrutinizer51	user:jebba/DBUS	00:41
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer51, nothing there	00:41
alterego	Basically, you find out the uri for the file, then you query the tracker plugin	00:41
MohammadAG51	that's what your plugin does?	00:42
alterego	No, I just listen for changes.	00:42
MohammadAG51	oh	00:42
alterego	Everytime the track changes, the metadata is sent out via a dbus signal	00:42
MohammadAG51	yeah saw that	00:42
MohammadAG51	in dbus-monitor	00:42
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	cehteh, were you the one saying you build your own cases?	00:42
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alterego	MohammadAG51: I think, call this: method call sender=:1.29 -> dest=com.nokia.mafw.renderer.Mafw-Gst-Renderer-Plugi	00:43
alterego	n.gstrenderer serial=2329 path=/com/nokia/mafw/renderer/gstrenderer; interface=c	00:43
alterego	om.nokia.mafw.renderer; member=get_status	00:43
alterego	Oh, god that was fail :)	00:43
MohammadAG51	indeed	00:43
MohammadAG51	:P	00:43
alterego	That tells you the uri,	00:43
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MohammadAG51	thanks alterego	00:45
alterego	MohammadAG51: http://pastie.org/1000094	00:45
alterego	rough, but that looks like the basic idea.	00:45
* crashanddie starts dancing while listening to Battles - Atlas (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv38m36-nsU)		00:45
alterego	MohammadAG51: what are you doing may I ask? :)	00:45
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MohammadAG51	alterego, just experimenting with some sh*t, not a project or something I'll think about releasing :P	00:46
MohammadAG51	alterego, promoted to -testing yet?	00:46
alterego	MohammadAG51: yeah	00:47
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alterego	MohammadAG51: do you think it's ready? :)	00:47
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MohammadAG51	yeah	00:47
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alterego	Well, vote! :D	00:47
MohammadAG51	that's what i'm doing lol	00:48
alterego	How many QA testers does it need to go to extras?	00:48
SpeedEvil	1000	00:48
alterego	woof	00:48
MohammadAG51	LOL	00:48
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MohammadAG51	10	00:48
alterego	Cool,	00:48
alterego	probably take a while then, doesn't look like there's much interest :)	00:48
pupnik	http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/long-live-your-mobile-battery/2010/06/07/color-makes-a-difference color vs power consumption oled vs tft	00:49
alterego	I feel like I'm talking to myself on the t.m.o thread :D	00:49
DocScrutinizer51	1 to test app, and 999 to keep maemo.org running	00:49
MohammadAG51	alterego, my app stayed about a month in testing	00:49
alterego	Heh	00:49
MohammadAG51	till someone actually posted a "we need testers" thread	00:49
alterego	Wasn't there an auto promote?	00:49
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lbt	who needs testing?	00:49
alterego	lbt: people that want there app in extras :P	00:50
alterego	s/there/their/	00:50
infobot	alterego meant: lbt: people that want their app in extras :P	00:50
alterego	awful :D	00:50
lbt	in the specific, not the generic	00:50
MohammadAG51	alterego, man your email's gonna get spammed :P	00:50
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MohammadAG51	alterego, request a bugtracker	00:50
alterego	MohammadAG51: (cough) already does ...	00:50
MohammadAG51	xD	00:50
lbt	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/shopper/0.5.9-2/	00:51
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lbt	swap you?	00:51
MohammadAG51	seriously, switch to a bugtracker	00:51
MohammadAG51	alterego, vote your app up, it's sad but I did it	00:51
alterego	Hahah	00:51
alterego	I was going to ... :D	00:52
* lbt proposes a mutual admiration and testing club		00:52
lbt	we need 10 members...	00:52
alterego	:)	00:52
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benno2	Hi, I read some time ago that Nokia sold about 100k N900 in 5 weeks, how many do you think were sold until now ? I see that the N900 is still launched in new countries like India and on many www.nokia.* sites the N900 is on the front page. do you think 500k N900 might be realistic ?	00:54
lbt	yes	00:54
lbt	no	00:54
jacekowski	more	00:55
MohammadAG51	hopefully not	00:55
alterego	I think a lot more.	00:55
lbt	there you go... all possibilities covered	00:55
alterego	Hahah	00:55
MohammadAG51	lol	00:55
frosty`	lol lbt	00:55
jacekowski	MohammadAG51: ?	00:55
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alterego	MohammadAG51: where do I vote it up?	00:55
MohammadAG51	jacekowski, from the looks of tmo, I really would like a smaller community	00:55
lbt	MohammadAG51: try MeeGo	00:56
MohammadAG51	alterego, go to the packages page and hit the testing armel one	00:56
MohammadAG51	lbt, fsck no	00:56
lbt	it's smaller :)	00:56
alterego	Ah, right, cool.	00:56
MohammadAG51	lbt, at the moment yes, in half a year...	00:56
lbt	nod	00:56
MohammadAG51	well, at least whiners will move to MeeGo	00:56
MohammadAG51	I'll be a happy bastard	00:56
lbt	anyhow... who wants to start a test group?	00:57
MohammadAG51	isn't there aready one? :)	00:57
alterego	I think we should close off some parts of the forum for real community members :)	00:57
lbt	MohammadAG51: is there?	00:57
MohammadAG51	alterego, was thinking the same	00:57
alterego	Add a limit (you can only post here if you've had an account since 2007)	00:57
MohammadAG51	1000 thanks	00:57
MohammadAG51	or 1.5k	00:57
lbt	that suggests pmo users...	00:58
MohammadAG51	private.maemo.org?	00:58
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alterego	When I read posts like: "290 crappy apps" ...	00:58
MohammadAG51	alterego, that's kinda lame :P	00:58
alterego	It makes me think, w .. t .. f ?!	00:58
MohammadAG51	i joined in 09	00:58
MohammadAG51	i always thought the N8x0 and 770 had a crappy OS	00:59
MohammadAG51	never read a wiki article about it	00:59
MohammadAG51	i was a bit blinded by Symbian	00:59
alterego	I was kidding, about '07 thing. I'm sure there are some very active members who are worth their weight in gold that only hopped on for the N900 :P	00:59
MohammadAG51	then the N97 came and changed all that	00:59
DocScrutinizer51	damn, there's ome 30k on tmo	00:59
* MohammadAG51 likes the N97		01:00
alterego	Symbian does have an interesting distortion field surrounding it.	01:00
DocScrutinizer51	so you bet >500k	01:00
MohammadAG51	it made me hate symbian	01:00
alterego	I've never realy liked it. I got the first Series 60, (7650)	01:00
MohammadAG51	i wish I had an N810	01:00
MohammadAG51	or N800	01:00
DocScrutinizer51	why	01:00
alterego	I liked it, but it was so far ahead of it's time, but, well, I was sort of expecting more.	01:00
alterego	I love my N810 :)	01:00
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MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer51, so I could've been part of the community when it wasn't shit	01:01
DocScrutinizer51	i love both of them	01:01
alterego	Though, compared with the N900, when I pick it up it kind of feels like a toy :D	01:01
MohammadAG51	well, tmo	01:01
alterego	tbh, before the N900, I actually never really used t.m.o	01:01
DocScrutinizer51	neither	01:01
alterego	It was all just here really, in IRC	01:01
MohammadAG51	what about Itt?	01:02
alterego	This is where the more interesting things happen, but as the size increased, it's pretty hard to keep track of the information that goes through here.	01:02
alterego	MohammadAG51: yeah, I mean ITT, never used it before the N900 and it changing to t.m.o	01:02
mece	in shellscripts, # for comments, right?	01:03
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: do you run 0.2.0-1 or -1 of alarmed?	01:03
alterego	But people are getting pretty good at wikifying the interesting substance I think. Still though, I'm sure there's a lot of duplicated effort in the community and not enough, erm, mind sharing.	01:03
alterego	mece: yhes	01:03
* DocScrutinizer51 is going to kick users a* thru k* to keep irc chan small enough		01:03
SpeedEvil	meceyes	01:03
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: and what exactly happens when there's a problem with deleting?	01:03
DocScrutinizer51	Shapeshifter: latest	01:03
mece	ok, thanks.	01:03
SpeedEvil	Including A through K?	01:04
alterego	DocScrutinizer51: can you start from 'b' or should I change to capitals? :P	01:04
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DocScrutinizer51	Shapeshifter: bothing happens on hitting delete	01:04
nidO	surely youll get to D then run into problems	01:04
* mece is writing preinst and postrm scripts to backup and restore the libhildonfm.so.2.0.0 file		01:04
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: have you had the chance to run it on a CLI and look for error output?	01:04
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alterego	ptl: you about?	01:05
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DocScrutinizer51	Shapeshifter: not yet	01:06
SpeedEvil	Is there a syslog somewhere in the repos?	01:09
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SpeedEvil	ah - I forgot the d.	01:09
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alterego	Well, if there's anyone interested in doing some testing here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/media-im-status-updater/0.2/	01:11
alterego	pleeeeease!	01:11
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: -ng?	01:12
SpeedEvil	?	01:13
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: no "about" in the menu :-S	01:14
alterego	Is repository.maemo.org down?	01:14
Shapeshifter	menu?	01:14
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: syslog-ng	01:14
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: exactly	01:14
Shapeshifter	what menu, what "about"?	01:14
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: exactly	01:14
Shapeshifter	why add unnecessary stuff	01:15
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DocScrutinizer	lol	01:15
alterego	Well, this is annoying.	01:15
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DocScrutinizer	i could try a alarmed -V in shell	01:15
alterego	Oh, was my internet ..	01:16
DocScrutinizer	doesn't pan out - no alarmed at all	01:16
DocScrutinizer	:-o	01:16
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: optification borked it?	01:17
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Shapeshifter	huh	01:18
DocScrutinizer	alterego: no, it's been me, starting to kick a*	01:18
alterego	:P	01:18
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MohammadAG51	he killed himself	01:19
Shapeshifter	I'm not sure if I have a symlink in my package. I guess I should make one or something. Or maybe py2deb should? I dunno. Anyway /opt/alarmed/alarmed.py should work	01:19
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DocScrutinizer	damn, i'm d*	01:19
alterego	Shapeshifter: permissions?	01:19
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alterego	Shapeshifter: I.E. is it executable?	01:19
* Jaffa beds.		01:19
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alterego	Oh, wait, my bad, didn't actually read all of that :D	01:20
DocScrutinizer	alar<tab> doesn't pan out	01:20
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Shapeshifter	huh	01:20
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: you mean without the path? Well as I said probably there's no symlink in /usr/bin/ or similar	01:21
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: optification borked it?	01:21
DocScrutinizer	c&p from 10min ago	01:21
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Shapeshifter	what??	01:23
Shapeshifter	nothing is broken	01:23
Shapeshifter	everything works	01:23
Shapeshifter	I don't understand what you're trying to say.	01:23
DocScrutinizer51	alarmed.py: error: no such option: -V	01:23
Shapeshifter	so?	01:23
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: ah - I found syslogd - which I have installed and working.	01:24
Shapeshifter	why would an app need to advertise it's own version. that's package-manager business.	01:24
SpeedEvil	(once I set it up to drop its logs in /home	01:24
Shapeshifter	or do you mean verbose?	01:24
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: I'm not supposed to have /opt/alarmed/ in my $PATH	01:24
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: yeah I know	01:24
Shapeshifter	I'm saying it probably never worked	01:24
DocScrutinizer	and -V should give me an idea about version	01:24
DocScrutinizer	just saying	01:25
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: I disagree. Apps don't need version info inside the app. That would mean I'd need more build-periphery that does stuff automatically, or I'd need to update version numbers in two places. that's from the old times, when there was no package management. or on windows :>	01:25
Shapeshifter	where everything is in chaos.	01:25
DocScrutinizer	or if -V doesn't then at least --help should	01:26
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Shapeshifter	why	01:26
Shapeshifter	apt-info alarmed	01:26
Shapeshifter	or	01:26
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Shapeshifter	apt-cache info	01:26
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DocScrutinizer	package management? which package manegement??	01:26
Shapeshifter	apt	01:27
* DocScrutinizer cough		01:27
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DocScrutinizer	apt seems even unable to tell me the REPO a particular app is installed from	01:27
MohammadAG51	HAM can	01:28
mece	yay HAM!	01:28
jperez26	so...any idea when a viable test version of meego for n8x0 will be ready? >.>;;	01:28
* DocScrutinizer heads off to warm up some wieners		01:28
jperez26	i'd love to get my hands on it for testing	01:28
DocScrutinizer	/join meego	01:29
jperez26	oh psh	01:30
jperez26	you're no fun doc >:/	01:30
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: HAM takes 5 minutes just to start up. Couldn't bother less to try and find out about a version of a pkg this way	01:30
alterego	http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=4325663&id=695772868	01:30
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alterego	A picture of me with my N900, taken by someone with an N900, :D	01:30
alterego	That was timed impeccably.	01:30
MohammadAG51	alterego, No way the flag ye sent fer can be spied upon now. Yer lookin glass may be foggy or yer shipmates may be planning yer mutiny! Better watch yer back.	01:31
MohammadAG51	next time, link to a .jpg :)	01:31
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alterego	Oh, hahah, privacy settings.	01:31
alterego	I was wondering what you were talking about for a moment.	01:32
MohammadAG51	(English (Pirate) language selected)	01:32
alterego	http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs319.ash1/28105_397565012868_695772868_4325663_6844699_n.jpg	01:32
alterego	Is that better?	01:32
MohammadAG51	oi! change to 5MP photos	01:32
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: Nokia-N900:~# apt-cache show alarmed \| grep Version	01:33
Shapeshifter	Version: 0.2.0-2	01:33
mece	damn you modified filemanager! quit giving me sw_rst reboots!	01:33
alterego	MohammadAG51: ?	01:33
alterego	Not my camera :P	01:33
MohammadAG51	heh	01:33
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Funnyface	am I the only one that keeps entering "Settings" since they removed the "More..." icon from the menu? :P	01:33
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alterego	Funnyface: probably yeah :P	01:33
mece	Funnyface, I have to admit I did that a couple of times after upgrade	01:33
Funnyface	hehe	01:34
alterego	Funnyface: no, I'ver heard a couple of people talking about that issue	01:34
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: is there a way to use rpm?	01:34
MohammadAG51	Funnyface, nope, I just moved the settings icon, and made terminal where more is	01:34
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: why would you want to do that?	01:34
MohammadAG51	so if I actually do it, I just run the app from terminal	01:35
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: is rpm any better than apt? apt is such a pita.	01:35
DocScrutinizer	because I don't know a shit of apt	01:35
MohammadAG51	rpm sucks	01:35
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: ah well. no clue. I had to learn apt as well. it's not that complicated	01:35
Shapeshifter	or rather, it is VERY complicated	01:35
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Shapeshifter	but the 3 things you need everyday are not.	01:35
* MohammadAG51 finds it quite easy		01:35
DocScrutinizer	I only know <cmd> -V	01:35
Shapeshifter	apt is a mess	01:35
Funnyface	I guess I haven't used my device enough since the upgrade :\	01:36
Shapeshifter	horrible. but I've said that many times enough	01:36
MohammadAG51	it's much better than RPM tbh	01:36
DocScrutinizer	and <cmd> --help	01:36
alterego	MohammadAG51: anyhow, I prefer the 3.5 widescreen images :P	01:36
MohammadAG51	rpm is soooo slow	01:36
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Shapeshifter	dunno, I don't know rpm, so that maybe true.	01:36
trem	nite all, sweet dreams	01:36
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DocScrutinizer	if both doesn't tell me about version of the program text loaded, then I can't be bothered to ask some 3rd app about it	01:37
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: what third party app?	01:37
Shapeshifter	apt-cache is part of apt	01:37
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MohammadAG51	indeed	01:37
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mece	does test -f return true on symlinks?	01:38
DocScrutinizer	I installed my system with flasher-tool	01:38
DocScrutinizer	what is apt?	01:38
DocScrutinizer	or, what is xterm, for that topic? alarmed has a GUI	01:38
MohammadAG51	err	01:39
MohammadAG51	Shapeshifter,	01:39
MohammadAG51	just add a dpkg -l alarmed to your app	01:39
mece	errm. could I get the output of ls -l /usr/lib/libhildonfm* on N900 pls?	01:39
MohammadAG51	make it show version number	01:39
Shapeshifter	imo the application doesn't need to advertise anything about it's state. If you'd want that, you'd have to add a little package manager to every single app you write that checks integrity, cares about versioning...	01:39
MohammadAG51	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Jun 10 13:22 /usr/lib/libhildonfm.so.2 -> libhildonfm.so.2.0.0	01:40
MohammadAG51	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 301476 Apr 15 18:55 /usr/lib/libhildonfm.so.2.0.0	01:40
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	01:40
Shapeshifter	you're just used to it from the old times	01:40
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DocScrutinizer	~ $ uname -a	01:41
DocScrutinizer	Linux Nokia-N900-02-8 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Wed Jun 2 18:49:44 IDT 2010 armv7l unknown	01:41
DocScrutinizer	~ $ less -V	01:41
DocScrutinizer	less 429	01:41
DocScrutinizer	Copyright (C) 1984-2008 Mark Nudelman	01:41
mece	MohammadAG51, Much obliged. Thank you.	01:41
Shapeshifter	*click on help -> about, see copyright notice, license, and credits and that you're not allowed to copy the program"	01:41
DocScrutinizer	don't tell me about modern times, mate	01:41
vldcnst	crashanddie: cool song	01:41
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: yeah. less is from the old times	01:41
Shapeshifter	today you do: apt-cache show less	01:42
DocScrutinizer	maybe it's fashinable to be stupid... I just don't care	01:42
Shapeshifter	Version: 429-2maemo1	01:42
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MohammadAG51	oooh	01:42
MohammadAG51	i like this -V shit	01:42
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: you get more useful info out of apt-cache than if every single app were to increment an internal counter. which of course gets forgotten and is just one more redundant step in packaging	01:42
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: no, as I copied over the executable, and apt doesn't know a shit about it, or about my $PATH	01:43
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: why do you do that.	01:43
Shapeshifter	use apt	01:43
DocScrutinizer	NO I WON'T	01:43
Shapeshifter	well then that's your problem :)	01:43
DocScrutinizer	and you won't tell me to do	01:43
DocScrutinizer	that's YOUR problem, not mine	01:43
Shapeshifter	why is it?	01:43
DocScrutinizer	YOU asked ME about the version of the executable I used	01:44
* DocScrutinizer get's pissed, slowly but inevitably		01:44
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MohammadAG51	Beer?	01:44
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: I was assuming that you got it from extras-devel. Do you think that assumption is not sane given that maemo 5 uses apt and alarmed is in extras-devel?	01:44
DocScrutinizer	you don't even know which version of maemo I use here	01:45
Shapeshifter	again, why would you go around placing stuff by hand instead of letting the package manager do it	01:45
MohammadAG51	lol	01:45
DocScrutinizer	damn you don't even know the device	01:45
MohammadAG51	RX-91	01:45
Shapeshifter	woot	01:45
MohammadAG51	it runs Mac OS X	01:45
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: I'm on 1.1.1 here, with a custom kernel, and a messed up apt database	01:47
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: that is unfortunate.	01:47
DocScrutinizer	and I copied back a partition image of /opt	01:47
MohammadAG51	you didn't upgrade to 1.2?	01:48
DocScrutinizer	so now tell me, is the version I report to you from apt really the one of the executable I used	01:48
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: unlikely so	01:48
DocScrutinizer	you CAN'T	01:48
DocScrutinizer	so don't tell me about modern fucking times, dude	01:49
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: then again, you probably got the files from a tar.gz or deb labeled with a version :)	01:49
Shapeshifter	aaanyway	01:49
Shapeshifter	unusual circumstances	01:49
crashanddie	chill, children	01:50
DocScrutinizer	you NEVER face 'usual circumstances' when troubleshooting	01:50
DocScrutinizer	WTF is wrong with a version number in --help?	01:51
crashanddie	vldcnst: I heard a remixed version for some honda ad, and I just felt like I knew it (almost impossible to hear, maybe 3 seconds in the ad)	01:52
crashanddie	vldcnst: was watching a stupid movie, but couldn't focus. The song kept popping back, till it hit me, I heard it yesterday while playing little big planet with some friends	01:52
DocScrutinizer	too much hassle for the developer?	01:52
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, oh you have a PS3?	01:53
crashanddie	I have 3	01:53
crashanddie	lol	01:53
MohammadAG51	LBP is epic :D	01:53
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: as I said, I'd need to increment it by hand in two files (build script/changes + in the code) or build around some magic that it gets incremented automatically when changed in the build script	01:53
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, what's your ID? :)	01:53
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: crashanddie_	01:53
DocScrutinizer	hmm, just do it then	01:53
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: do you have RDR?	01:53
mece	aw crap..	01:54
DocScrutinizer	you see less can do it as well	01:54
MohammadAG51	Red Dead Redemption? nah, is it good?	01:54
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vldcnst	crashanddie: the lyrics are also interesting.	01:54
crashanddie	yeah, pretty fun, if you like spaghetti westerns	01:54
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: I don't see the necessity.	01:54
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: I'm more concerned with functionality than topping ans sprinkles.	01:55
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: played online for the first time today, heaps of fun. You just find some people in this huge desert, and the leader goes "ok, let's go and shoot some criminals", and as a gang you raid some other gang hideout	01:55
Shapeshifter	each to his own	01:55
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mece	annoying. if I do an install of a package (p1) that is already installed (p2), it runs like this: p1 preinst, p2 postrm, p1 install.	01:55
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: you can always fork ;)	01:55
mece	which results in my preinst magic is based on the already installed thing, but then the postrm is run before the actual thing is installed. damn und blast!	01:56
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DocScrutinizer51	you bet I'll do rather than share my thoughts to people who don't care and prefer to ask me meaningless quewtions, just to answer them with 'unusual circumstances. your system isn't maimtained the "modern" way'	01:59
Shapeshifter	sure	02:00
DocScrutinizer51	if you're lazy then why at all share packages?	02:00
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: you really want to keep going?	02:01
Shapeshifter	I think I've endured enough DocScrutiny for today, I'll rather go to sleep :>	02:01
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crashanddie	lmao, watching a documentary about fraudulent landlords... Some landlord has a civil company, and the associates are himself, his wife, his two daughters and his son. Only problem, his daughters are twins born 4 years ago, and the boy is under a year old	02:17
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asj	can a 4 year old not be stock holders in your country?	02:18
crashanddie	sure they can	02:18
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crashanddie	just makes it quite hard for the assemblies. "Motion to give daddy a new car, Johnny boy vote yes or no dessert tonight"	02:19
asj	maybe I'm just cynical, but that's only slightly more silly than what happens in companies all the time. "Edward, we recommend you vote yes since they would greatly increase your quartly bonus"	02:20
asj	err, s/they/that/	02:20
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pigeon	is there a way to add the usb net connection to the list of connections for things like auto update for things (e.g. modest)?	02:35
pigeon	usually they only show "WLAN" and "any connections"	02:36
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jperez26	meego channel seems useless. no one is active ._.	02:38
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SpeedEvil	Maemo runs. http://qkwv.com/zombeef.jpg	02:45
* vldcnst runs.		02:47
* mece runs, screaming "ZOMBIECOWS! RUN!!!"		02:48
mece	damn you ssu!	02:49
mece	or whatever it's called. Firmware	02:49
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mece	stupid ham.	02:49
mece	HAM tells me that it will not install that because it pokes at my precious firmware in a way that I'm not comfortable with	02:50
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mece	~curse hildon application manager	02:51
infobot	May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, hildon application manager !	02:51
SpeedEvil	pr1.2 you mean?	02:51
mece	well yes.	02:51
mece	I aimed to discreetly replace one small library.	02:51
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mece	well it works fine with dpkg, so it's not really that much of a problem.	02:51
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mece	it even makes a backup of the library, so it can restore it as it were when uninstalled.	02:52
mece	which it even does :)	02:54
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mece	I'm out. tata.	03:04
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pupnik	http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Processors-Benchmarklist.2436.0.html useful benchmarklist for portable x86 cpus	03:10
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sexpapst	.	03:16
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sexpapst	lol	03:17
sexpapst	lol	03:17
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flailingmonkey	howdy	03:24
flailingmonkey	damn, looks like I just missed mece	03:24
nextime	uhm	03:25
nextime	just discovered that the n900 email client shoud support imap idle	03:25
flailingmonkey	was this from change logs mentioning a reworking of imap idle? (spoiler: its not really imap idle)	03:26
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jaem	'afternoon	03:26
nextime	flailingmonkey : no, it is from a blog describing nokia messaging service that use imap idle	03:27
budfive	nextime: i believe the imap idle implementation in libtinymail is highly inefficient so it's a battery hog and disabled	03:27
nextime	budfive: mumbl	03:27
nextime	so, how can i get email push feature on n900?	03:28
MohammadAG51	email.nokia.com	03:28
budfive	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3888	03:28
povbot	Bug 3888: IMAP-IDLE not working	03:28
budfive	you can use an email proxy such as nokia messaging	03:28
budfive	also I think the exchange is supposed to support it	03:29
nextime	budfive : i'm escapingg from blackberry cause i'm a privacy fanatic and i DON'T want to useany third pary proxy for my email	03:29
budfive	s/exchange/exchange client/	03:29
infobot	budfive meant: also I think the exchange client is supposed to support it	03:29
nextime	and also i don't use any microsoft technology, so, no exchange	03:30
budfive	nextime: I don't know of any good ways at this point. Seems like the RIGHT solution is to fix libtinymail	03:30
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budfive	nextime: read the comments on the bug in the link	03:30
nextime	i'm doing so	03:31
SpeedEvil	You mean modest?	03:31
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SpeedEvil	modest is open-source	03:31
budfive	no	03:31
SpeedEvil	ah	03:31
budfive	modest is a frontend to libtinymail	03:31
budfive	libtinymail is the part that needs to support imap idle more correctly	03:32
SpeedEvil	ah	03:32
budfive	it's open source too, though. So could be done for sure	03:32
budfive	somebody just needs to invest the time	03:32
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SpeedEvil	If someone does, I will sponsor them one shiny carrot.	03:32
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pigeon	what's the diff between nokia messaging and ovi mail?	03:34
budfive	nokia messaging is an email proxy, ovi mail is a webmail service	03:35
pigeon	right	03:35
flailingmonkey	I think it is necessary to create an established procedure for "upgrading" packages that are part of PR/"Maemo 5" meta package	03:35
budfive	ovi mail gives you an email address, like gmail, hotmail, etc	03:35
flailingmonkey	that is supported by HAM, specifically	03:35
pigeon	i'm now trying nokia messaging, funny thing though, when i use the sign up on the web, it says my phone already has the latest nokia messaging software installed, and i should just set it up on the phone.	03:36
budfive	nokia messaging checks your existing email account and alerts you in an intelligent way when messages are available	03:36
pigeon	but then if i can't sign up, what do i set up on my phone? like address and password	03:36
jaem	budfive, is there FOSS server software that one could use in place of Nokia's proxy for that?	03:36
budfive	pigeon: it's supposed to show up in the list when you add new email accoutns	03:36
jaem	I don't like giving third-parties my e-mail credentials	03:36
flailingmonkey	N900 can create account when you set it up on phone	03:37
budfive	pigeon: but it doesn't work for some people, since Nokia determines eligibility in some non-transparent manner	03:37
pigeon	hmm	03:37
flailingmonkey	s/\$/ with Nokia Messaging/	03:37
budfive	pigeon: If they decided you're not eligible for some reason, "nokia messaging" doesn't appear in the list of new accounts	03:37
flailingmonkey	bah, no regexps	03:37
pigeon	i'm trying to create a new account in modest now	03:37
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pigeon	now it asks me for my e-mail address and password	03:38
flailingmonkey	I had it so that the entry was above the top of the list that was displayed, just had to scroll up	03:38
pigeon	that would be my real e-mail address and password?	03:38
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flailingmonkey	yeah, it wants the e-mail/pwd for the address you want to proxy. it uses that e-mail as your user name	03:39
pigeon	so NM's proxy talks imap to fetch e-mails?	03:40
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pigeon	never mind, i should just read NM's faq on their website first ;)	03:42
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flailingmonkey	yep, ya should :-p	03:44
pigeon	:)	03:44
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pigeon	so NM will have access to all my e-mails?	03:44
SpeedEvil	If NM is fetching them for you, then yes.	03:45
pigeon	ok	03:45
pigeon	thought so	03:45
SpeedEvil	I recall some rather bogus terms in their T&Cs that gave them the right to - amongst other things - publically perform excerpts from your emails.	03:45
pigeon	and they'll have to store your e-mails somehow too then	03:46
SpeedEvil	However - I wasn't reading closely - check that I'm not making stuff up.	03:46
pigeon	yeah, i was thinking maybe i will not use NM for like my work e-mails, for example.	03:46
pigeon	reading the t&c now	03:48
* nextime now goes to sleep, 2:47am here, but tomorrow will look more deeply on libtinything and will start to study the code to try to fix it in someway		03:48
sexpapst	ll	03:48
nextime	'night	03:48
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pigeon	fix imap folder subscription while you're there too then ;)	03:49
pigeon	night	03:49
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flailingmonkey	hehehe	03:56
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flailingmonkey	still, we need to empower community to be able to share updates outside PR releases	03:57
SpeedEvil	Get some hosting.	03:57
flailingmonkey	they should also submit the patches too of course, but whats the point of scratching an itch when you have to wait for months to use your work	03:57
SpeedEvil	Add it to the repository list	03:57
flailingmonkey	the problem is, I really would prefer to be able to use HAM, and not require more hoop jumping for users	03:58
flailingmonkey	and it seems to complain when you step on files associated with "Maemo 5" package :-p	03:59
flailingmonkey	lol, maybe have the install just run a script to do the dirty work	03:59
SpeedEvil	You can add repositories to HAM	04:00
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flailingmonkey	indeed, but it won't install a package that interferes with files in the "Maemo 5" package. Should also plan to handle future OTA PR upgrades gracefully	04:07
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pigeon	can you enable those dial number sound when dialing a number in the phone app?	04:11
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pigeon	wouldn't you need modest running to get nokia messaging push?	04:14
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MohammadAG51	nope	04:18
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MohammadAG51	it should work in the background	04:19
MohammadAG51	afaik	04:19
pigeon	when you say background, you mean modest running in the background?	04:19
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pigeon	i don't have any modest process running now, and i just sent myself a test e-mail, there's no notification or anything yet.	04:20
MohammadAG51	tbh it isn't that good on hotmail	04:20
MohammadAG51	for gmail and ovi, it's instant	04:20
pigeon	i'm testing it with a gmail account	04:21
MohammadAG51	no idea then	04:21
pigeon	hmm	04:21
pigeon	let me start modest now then	04:21
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pigeon	ah, hmm, maybe i know why	04:23
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pigeon	still nothing.	04:26
pigeon	weird, i'm not getting any notification.	04:29
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pigeon	i'm guessing it's one of the options i've got which switched it off or something...	04:34
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pigeon	if i start modest, then go into the account under nokia messaging, the new mails are there.	04:37
pigeon	but i'm just not getting any notifications.	04:37
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pigeon	ah, the notification only works when i have the phone locked/screen down	04:48
pigeon	that's not very obvious...	04:49
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flailingmonkey	weird	05:18
flailingmonkey	maybe it just works now?	05:18
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pigeon	i guess i could try reboot my phone too.	05:25
pigeon	but for now, i have to lock the phone before i get a notification	05:26
pigeon	works very well btw, nokia messaging + gmail	05:26
pigeon	i just need to somehow setup something so i can use NM with all of my other e-mail accounts	05:26
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	any tmo users in the US?	05:27
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	curious about what plan to get	05:27
pigeon	like my personal home one requires ssh tunnel and etc.	05:27
flailingmonkey	now that you have a NM account you can login to the website	05:27
pigeon	ah	05:27
pigeon	good point, thanks	05:27
flailingmonkey	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, I've found tmo associates are usually very interested by the N900 :-) in the stores atleast	05:29
pigeon	nice	05:29
flailingmonkey	ssh tunneling into your personal IMAP server? isn't that overkill, or is it more like a makeshift vpn	05:30
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pigeon	oh... rebooting did solve the problem...	05:30
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	flailingmonkey: so they'll help me get good deals if i bring it in?	05:31
flailingmonkey	I've found that its unnecessary to have push e-mail, it mostly interrupts my work	05:31
wazd_n900	morning people :)	05:31
pigeon	flailingmonkey: heh	05:31
flailingmonkey	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, lol, I doubt it but I like people praising N900, our lady of hardware	05:32
pigeon	flailingmonkey: that's the whole point ;)	05:32
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	well I just bought one yesterday	05:32
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	the scale thinks I lost 10 pounds, but that is only because I weight myself with my wallet	05:32
flailingmonkey	saving battery would be the only thing to move me to push e-mail	05:33
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	why is email separate from 'internet' on the plans	05:34
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I feel marketing at work!	05:34
flailingmonkey	wazd_n900, what timezone now?	05:34
wazd_n900	cet+3 :)	05:34
wazd_n900	6:35 am in here	05:34
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flailingmonkey	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, i'd just ask them what the difference is	05:36
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flailingmonkey	EDT-4, 22:36 for me	05:36
wazd_n900	hehe	05:36
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flailingmonkey	what country?	05:39
SpeedEvil	3:43AM	05:43
* SpeedEvil should go to sleep.		05:43
* SpeedEvil gets pancake.		05:43
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flailingmonkey	irc should indicate each users country/timezone, to promote understanding	05:44
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: I'm on tmo in the US	05:44
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: if you go contract-less, the voice plans are cheaper. Data is $10/mo if you tell them you have a featurephone. If you tell them you have an n900, it's $25/mo	05:44
* SpeedEvil cheeses.		05:45
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	budfive, can they know what you have?	05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	what is a 'featurephone'?	05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	10$/mo unlimited for data prepaid?	05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	that is really good	05:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I'm not sure they've 3g prepaid	05:48
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: featurephone is any old phone	05:48
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: the data plans are exactly the same	05:48
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: borrow and old non-smart phone, go in and get the cheap data plan	05:49
SpeedEvil	'Yes, I'm using 23Gb/mo with a nokia 3310 - so?'	05:49
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I don't want to pay monthly because half way through the month I may be in another country	05:49
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	lol	05:49
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budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: this isn't prepaid. You still pay monthly, but you don't have a contract	05:50
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budfive	SpeedEvil: they'd have to check to know that :)	05:50
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/Cell-Phone-Plans.aspx?catgroup=Individual&WT.z_shop_plansLP=individual	05:50
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: "even more plus" is what you want	05:50
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	so 60/mo	05:51
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	hmmm	05:51
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I'm looking at pay-as-you-go	05:51
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	maybe the sidekick plan: http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/Cell-Phone-Plans.aspx?catgroup=Individual&WT.z_shop_plansLP=individual	05:53
Proteous	I pay $40 a month for 500 minutes and unlimted data for my n900	05:53
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	1$/day for unlimited sms and data?	05:53
budfive	Proteous: exactly what i do :)	05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	any sms?	05:54
Proteous	I don't really use it	05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	google voice might be a solution	05:54
flailingmonkey	they will be looking for people trying to abuse the prepaid plans more than the monthly plans	05:54
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: $10/unlimited or $0.20 each	05:54
Proteous	but I can, for $0.20 a text	05:54
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	so you guys pay monthly right?	05:54
Proteous	yes, monthly, it's no contract prepay	05:55
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	well I don't want to be paying them when I'm in another country	05:55
flailingmonkey	the good thing is that with no contract you can cancel any time, no fee	05:55
Proteous	but your account goes away if you don't pay	05:55
Proteous	you can't just skip out for 6 months then start it back up	05:55
Proteous	well you can, you'll just have to buy the plan again when you start it back up and you'll get a new number	05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	okay, how do I skip out for 2mo?	05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	any way to do that?	05:56
Proteous	you don't	05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	heh	05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	oh, I can't lose my number	05:56
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: sounds like you need to talk to tmobile :)	05:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	okay, I was planning, during a trip across europe to just get a new sim for every country since it will be way cheaper with native providers instead of roaming......	05:57
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	is this not reasonable?	05:58
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flailingmonkey	yes, prepaid can be very affordable	06:00
flailingmonkey	at least in finland	06:00
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	hey, I might even visit finland	06:00
Proteous	in the US it can be if you only want a voice plan	06:00
Proteous	the prepaid data offerings pretty much all suck	06:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	so how do I prevent spending on a US tmo plan when I'm out of the country?	06:01
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Proteous	except for fanegaling the tmobile plan like we were talking about	06:01
Proteous	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: you seem to think that if you keep asking that somehow the reality of the situation is going to change	06:01
Proteous	spend the $80 to keep your plan active for 2 months	06:02
Proteous	that is the solution	06:02
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	lol	06:03
budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: if you're extra-cheap you can turn off the $10/mo data for when you're not there	06:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I'm thinking about trying the sidekick plan	06:03
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budfive	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: link?	06:04
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	can the provider tell what kind of phone you have?	06:04
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simula	$10/month for data? what?	06:04
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	http://www.t-mobile.com/shop/plans/Cell-Phone-Plans.aspx?catgroup=Individual&WT.z_shop_plansLP=individual	06:04
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flailingmonkey	yeah, sidekick is a special case	06:04
simula	dang that's expensive	06:05
simula	i use a prepaid and rely on my wifi	06:05
simula	less than $10/month	06:05
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	in the US?	06:06
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simula	yulps	06:06
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	which plan is that?	06:08
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	only data prepaid?	06:08
simula	only voice prepaid	06:08
simula	i rely on external wifi for my data	06:08
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	ah	06:09
simula	there are a couple open hotspots where i eat lunch, the only time i really use a connection	06:09
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yeah, I'd like 3g	06:09
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	i thought I'd be able to get a sim for every country i visit to keep costs down	06:09
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luke-jr	simula: prepaid monthly, or prepaid per minute? O.o	06:10
luke-jr	my wife uses 70 hours in a month -.-	06:10
simula	ahhh, i use mine rarely... it was for a set number of minutes and it lasts a year	06:11
simula	i paid $100 for it	06:12
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flailingmonkey	its quite amazing how much use a phone can get, even just with a feature phone	06:13
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flailingmonkey	why are most people on IRC in Europe...	06:28
Proteous	most people in Europe are on IRC?	06:29
Proteous	or most people are on IRC servers located in Europe?	06:29
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Proteous	or most of the people who use irc are from Europe?	06:30
Proteous	isn't english fun	06:30
flailingmonkey	very fun is	06:33
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ohwhyme	LoL	06:34
flailingmonkey	new try, most people in #maemo seem to be from Europe	06:35
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flailingmonkey	s/#maemo/#maemo at this moment/	06:35
infobot	flailingmonkey meant: new try, most people in #maemo at this moment seem to be from Europe	06:35
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derf	Sigh, Mappero is still unusably bad, I see.	06:42
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flailingmonkey	what does that one do?	07:16
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flailingmonkey	gnight, 0023 localtime	07:24
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sprite	hello, is this the right place for troubleshooting a problem with my n900?	07:26
sprite	my N900 screen saver has started coming on during movies which is VERY annoying	07:26
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ptl	it is	07:29
ptl	during movies --- which player are you using?	07:29
sprite	the default player 'movie player'	07:30
ptl	have you tried using simple brightness applet?	07:30
sprite	ptl: how do you mean? I've not installed anything except the new maemo kernel update recently.	07:31
ptl	I dunno, some people say this application help avoiding screen blanking at wrong times.	07:31
ptl	s/help/helps/	07:31
infobot	ptl meant: I dunno, some people say this application helps avoiding screen blanking at wrong times.	07:31
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sprite	well i can turn the screensaver off. but obviously that's a pretty poor fix	07:32
ptl	let me see if I have this issue.	07:33
* ptl starts playing a movie in his N900.		07:33
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ptl	so far, nothing, image still on	07:35
ptl	and I'm using PR1.2	07:35
sprite	PR1.2? is that the default player?	07:35
ptl	no... lol	07:35
ptl	PR1.2 is the latest maemo update.	07:35
ptl	no issues here, default movie player is playing the flick correctly and not blanking the screen	07:36
sprite	my version is 10.2?	07:36
ptl	?	07:36
sprite	maemo 10.2010.19	07:37
ptl	yep	07:37
ptl	that's the one	07:37
Macer	i know i asked this before but does anybody know how i can add a fn key to the xterm toolbar so i can use f1 - f10?	07:37
Macer	i still havent found any info for it :(	07:37
ptl	Macer: I've written a tutorial for it, just a minute.	07:37
Macer	ptl: awesome.. thanks so much	07:38
Macer	i want to use htop and mc	07:38
Macer	:)	07:38
Macer	they use f keys	07:38
Macer	mc especially.. need it to manage files a little easier over ssh	07:38
sprite	ptl: any idea how i can trouble shoot this problem. the backlight turns off exactly after 30 seconds (as set in settings).	07:39
ptl	Macer: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=660761#post660761	07:39
ptl	I don't know the codes for the F<x> keys, though, but you might be able to google for that	07:40
ptl	you can get the keysyms list here: http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/List_of_keysyms	07:40
ptl	sprite: I dunno, maybe you should post a message in talk.maemo.org to see if someone can help you.	07:40
ptl	F1 through 20 0x0100 through 0x0113 Fx keys are used for string mappings.	07:41
ptl	cool, it has the F<x> keys.	07:41
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sprite	LOL, i think i will have too. it's not doing it now	07:41
Macer	heh	07:42
Macer	ptl, i am actually trying to figure out a way to make it like ctrl on the special key toolbar	07:43
Macer	where Fn will work like ctrl does.. and stay locked down	07:44
Macer	and keeping it locked lets you press 1 through 0 for f1 through f10	07:44
ptl	Control_Lock 0x0a02	07:44
Macer	remind me to go on maemo.org and request this as a default feature for xterm heh	07:45
ptl	Shift_Lock 0x0a00 _Lock keys toggle the relevant modifier's default state; Caps_Lock is the exception as Caps is not a modifier	07:45
ptl	AltGr_Lock 0x0a01 AltRLock is a synonym	07:45
ptl		07:45
ptl	Read more: http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/List_of_keysyms#ixzz0qW5gUnRe	07:46
Macer	heh	07:46
Macer	dont think altgr is what i am looking for.. but let me try it out	07:46
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Macer	no offense.. but the maemo theme is ugly as sin	07:49
Macer	:)	07:49
ptl	I agree	07:50
ptl	I use iStyle light	07:50
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Macer	\|	07:56
Macer	pipe is in the vkb	07:56
Macer	:)	07:56
Macer	guess quicker access?	07:56
Macer	i dont see anything that lets me lock fn :(	07:56
Macer	maybe i can find some other way to do it	07:57
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budfive	Macer: fyi, htop has mouse support	08:03
budfive	Macer: you can click on the labels that say "f2: blah"	08:03
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Macer	budfive: over ssh? ;)	08:04
budfive	oh	08:04
Macer	mc is more important	08:04
budfive	Macer: you ssh from your phone and run htop on the client machine?	08:05
budfive	might work. let me try	08:05
Macer	not really... but mc doesnt let you click.. i use mc on a remote box	08:05
Macer	i wonder if i can add a 2nd bar for f1-f10	08:05
budfive	yes	08:05
budfive	works	08:05
budfive	:)	08:05
Macer	heh	08:06
Macer	that may be the best solution even tho i dont want to lose the screen space	08:06
Macer	but what can you do ? ;)	08:06
Macer	would be nice to have maybe.. an option in xterm to make it pop up and go away	08:06
Macer	like "enable function bar"	08:07
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Macer	"disable function bar" in the xterm menu	08:07
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Macer	for now i think i will just add rename and move f keys for mc.. but that is a crappy quick fix and i dont have the time to mess with this for too long	08:08
budfive	Macer: mouse works for mc too	08:08
budfive	just tried it	08:08
Macer	budfive: over ssh?	08:09
budfive	Macer: it's a function of ncurses	08:09
budfive	Macer: yes	08:09
Macer	really:	08:09
Macer	??	08:09
Macer	wow	08:09
Macer	let me try it	08:09
budfive	Macer: it's a function of ncurses	08:09
Macer	in screen?	08:09
Macer	:)	08:09
Macer	well.. that helps a ton budfive	08:11
budfive	:)	08:11
Macer	but i still need the f keys for screen	08:11
budfive	Macer: ncurses is cool :)	08:11
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Macer	mouse doesnt work in screen	08:11
Macer	budfive: hehe.. yeah.. tbh didnt know it could do that	08:11
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budfive	Macer: I've never really used mc. What do you use it for?	08:12
budfive	Macer: any killer features?	08:12
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Macer	not really	08:20
Macer	it is just that renaming files and moving them with the term can be a bitch	08:20
Macer	:)	08:20
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Macer	well.. bbl.. thanks a lot for the help	08:25
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pigeon	does anyone know if an imaps server with a self signed cert will work with nokia messaging?	08:41
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pigeon	hmm, ah: http://discussions.mea.nokia.com/t5/Messaging-Email-and-Browsing/N/m-p/456516	08:50
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mece	Good morning maemonians!	09:08
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nas_	goodmorning mece !	09:26
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Stskeeps	morn tekojo	09:43
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solrize	anyone know if the n900 can decode avchd 1080i in real time?	09:49
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mece	solrize, I don't really know, but my guess is that no, it can't.	09:50
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solrize	tx	09:50
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stonda	my old Pentium 4 3.2ghz even can't do that, so go figure.	09:51
mece	I know nothing about the standard though, but anything with 1080 in the name is usually a bit miuch for omap3	09:51
solrize	i thought maybe decoding takes less cycles than encoding	09:52
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sandst1	yep it does	09:54
luke-jr	stonda: P4 sucks though	09:55
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stonda	well that's for sure. :)	09:55
stonda	but gives a good measurement	09:56
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	anyone here use the sidekick plan from tmo (1$/day for unlimited data)?	09:56
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	also you guys recommend any cases for the n900?	09:57
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I'm pretty sure cehteh was talking about building cases for it	09:57
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I'm very interested if you'd like to pm me about the ones you've built	09:57
cehteh	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: yes	09:57
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	awesome	09:57
mece	my boss has a nice leathery one that is pretty sweet..	09:57
cehteh	http://git.pipapo.org/n900case/n900_shell.html	09:58
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mece	cehteh, DUDE! That is soo sweet!	09:58
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cehteh	next comes a bike holder :P	09:59
tekojo	Stskeeps: morning, morning coffee raged ot of control again :)	09:59
Stskeeps	heh	09:59
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	bike holder?	09:59
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cehteh	clamp the n900 onto the bike handlebar	10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	oh wow	10:01
cehteh	shock and water proof	10:01
sandst1	solrize: here's a demo of a 720p MPEG-4 running on OMAP3 beagle board http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdnDpH3543Q, that one has a bit more kick than n900 though :)	10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I used to be a bike messenger in chicago and my plan was to do just that	10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	how will you make it water proof?	10:01
cehteh	possibly with DC from hub-dynamo :)	10:01
solrize	tx, maybe the next gen hardware can do 1080	10:01
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	if you make more than one, then I might like to buy one off of you	10:01
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cehteh	actually i made 2, the frist one in the photo is a hasty prototype	10:02
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solrize	nice shells, i wonder why the phone makers don't include stuff like that	10:02
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	do you not like any ones from companies like otterbox?	10:03
solrize	the otter commuter cases have gotten nice reviews	10:03
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cehteh	but there is a lot efforts put into this things, i dont make a business from that, counting the work-hours this thing should cost 50 Eur at least :P	10:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	think they're like $35	10:03
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cehteh	does otterbox make a n900 case meanwhile?	10:03
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solrize	yes they have a couple	10:03
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yeah - so you think yours are a lot better than an otterbox for example	10:03
solrize	the "commuter" is the good one apparently	10:03
cehteh	a friend of me has a generic otterbox for a n810 but it looks bit ugly	10:04
cehteh	http://www.christeck.de/wp/2009/02/28/nokia-n810-in-a-home-grown-bike-mount/	10:04
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	nice, but don't you want to be able to use it?	10:05
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	like check out maps and directions and such?	10:05
mece	oh my boss has this one: http://kauppa.nokia.fi/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/productdetail_10513_10107_-12_80000409	10:05
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I might just go case-less	10:06
mece	case-less ftw!	10:06
cehteh	well i think you have to make some compromises, for example when you leave the touchpad reachable that means a crash can damage the display because its unprotected	10:06
mece	although I do regret not using a screenprotector.	10:06
cehteh	i also bike at rainy days sometimes	10:06
mece	it's a bit late now though.	10:06
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	what happened mece?	10:06
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cehteh	scratches, what else :)	10:07
mece	well nothing really, but it's rather scratched. I suppose I could get one before it gets more scratched, but I don't really feel like it.	10:07
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yeah, but from what?	10:07
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mece	I got one deep scratch that I got the first day I had it. dunno how it happened.	10:07
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I just wont keep anything in my pocket with it	10:07
cehteh	the touchscreen is plastic, not glass	10:07
mece	others are tiny, but they are there.	10:07
Lynoure	I got kind of lucky and PDAir stuff for my Palm Treo fits N900 quite prettily	10:08
mece	regular use. I use it constantly and don't have time to be gentle.	10:08
cehteh	my screenprotector has one scratch at a side .. happy to have it :)	10:08
mece	I've got 4 small kids, so there's sand and dirt everywhere. I guess that's the main reason for the smaller scratches.	10:08
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	isn't it even less responsive in a screen protector?	10:08
cehteh	not noticeable	10:08
sandst1	nope	10:08
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	interesting	10:09
Lynoure	http://www.pdair.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10100000_1900000_11000787&products_id=27477 looks quite decent too	10:09
cehteh	depends a bit on the brand of the screen protector	10:09
mece	I thought it would be, that's why i dint use one. but my friiends protector is just amazing. and VERY slick. better than without it even.	10:09
cehteh	this rubbery things dont feel good	10:09
cehteh	the stylus sinks in and you cant use it comfortably	10:09
sandst1	i've got that one http://www.amazon.com/Premium-Protectors-Accessory-Export-Packaging/dp/B00333A0TW and it's pretty much unnnoticeable	10:10
cehteh	Lynoure: yeah that looks cool	10:10
mece	damn now that you're talking about it, I think I'm gonna get one of those protectors.	10:11
cehteh	Lynoure: if that would be available in january i wouldnt have build mine	10:11
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mece	might stop my stylus and nails from getting stuck in my big scratch	10:11
mece	the nokia CP-408 leather case thing has a nice lid on it that has soft fabric on the inside. pretty good protection against scratches. and it's not that expensive either.	10:12
mece	but not as comfy as one that doesn't have a lid I suppose.	10:12
mece	it's a matter of taste I suppose.	10:13
lostinmirkwood_	[ANNOUNCE] Ansel-A: Digital Darkroom for N900 released! http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=55861	10:13
Lynoure	cehteh: Building one's own stuff is way cooler, though.	10:13
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cehteh	but in materials it costed more (or about the same maybe) plus a lot of labour	10:14
mece	lostinmirkwood_, wow. Looks awesome!	10:14
lostinmirkwood_	thanks guys, for all your help here on #maemo	10:14
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yes #maemo is great	10:15
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	one of the reasons I got the phone actually	10:15
mece	lostinmirkwood_, is it in devel?	10:15
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sandst1	lostinmirkwood_: WOW	10:16
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lostinmirkwood_	mece yeah it is but i just submitted it to nokia's calling all innovators, so i also promoted it to testing.	10:17
mece	what the shit	10:18
mece	ham says 0.8-1	10:18
mece	aah need to update first.	10:18
mece	man I can't wait to test this!	10:18
lostinmirkwood_	ergh, why is that happening seems like everyone has 0.8-1 which was, let's say a dud release. v0.9-1 is the one promoted to testing.	10:19
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solrize	http://www.peltor.com/peltor.com/comm_detail.cfm?prod_family=BlueTooth%20Headsets&ind_prod_num=MT53H7AWS2001 here's the bluetooth headset i want ;)	10:20
mece	solrize, it's such a new release and everyones lists aren't updated yet.	10:20
solrize	lostinmirkwood_, ansel-a looks great but is it unfeasible to run gimp or something like that on the n900?	10:21
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solrize	it's written in python? cool	10:21
mece	solrize, gimp is very slow on N900. It works though. If ansel-a does what you need, you'll have a much nicer experience.	10:22
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solrize	cool	10:22
mece	gimp via easy debian that is.	10:22
solrize	one thing i wish gimp had was an easy way to put arrows into a picture	10:22
mece	arrows?	10:23
lostinmirkwood_	solrize it sure is and i have, it's just my contribution to the community, specifically for simple photo touchups not full blow gimp.	10:23
solrize	yeah, to make 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ;)	10:23
cehteh	my 'conversations' doesnt show any conversations since 1.2 update anymore wasnt there a bug or so?	10:23
mece	lostinmirkwood_, put a link to this page: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/ansela/0.9-1/ on the announce post	10:23
mece	so you get some votes.	10:23
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yeah, if any of you guys find a waterproof case for the n900 that still allows you to use it - that would be sick	10:24
solrize	lostinmirkwood_, cool, i wish i could use it (i don't have an n900 for now)	10:24
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lostinmirkwood_	ah i will, put the link.	10:24
solrize	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, maybe you could just use a sealed pelican case and a bluetooth headset	10:24
mece	ok., 0.9-1 comes up after a "refresh" in HAM	10:25
solrize	bbl	10:25
lostinmirkwood_	solrize what are you running? it's pyQt so it'll run on a n8xx i think	10:25
Duckboot	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: Melt plastic round the N900 - Should be waterproof, but the usability part.....	10:25
mece	LOL	10:25
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	lol	10:26
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	hey, any of you use VoIP via 3g?	10:26
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, does skype count?	10:26
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I guess - why not?	10:26
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mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, well then I do every now and then :)	10:27
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mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, what about it?	10:27
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	i might just go without voice if i can	10:27
Stskeeps	morn andre__	10:27
andre__	heja Stskeeps	10:27
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	data is 1$/day unlimited and voice is 15cents/min	10:27
Stskeeps	andre__: how goes?	10:27
mece	oooh the eyecandu!	10:27
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mece	s/eyecandu/eyecandy/	10:28
infobot	mece meant: oooh the eyecandy!	10:28
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andre__	Stskeeps, just arrived in Berlin. Work for two hours, then LinuxTag :)	10:30
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Stskeeps	andre__: cool :)	10:32
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mece	there's a method to find all files installed from a certain package, right?	10:33
mece	with dpkg and whatnot	10:33
Stskeeps	dpkg -	10:33
Stskeeps	L	10:33
mece	big L ok.	10:33
mece	capital even	10:34
mece	nice. good way to check optification. thanks.	10:34
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mece	Stskeeps, can make that show me the filesizes and such (by piping it to ls or something)	10:39
Stskeeps	xargs ls?	10:39
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Macer	hm	10:44
Macer	does the web browser in 1.2 seem a little flakey to anybody else?	10:44
Macer	where it keeps randomly crashing?	10:44
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Milhouse	Macer: Can't say, I tend to use Opera more these days	10:45
Macer	usually it does it to me when i type in an address and it tries to pull up its version of the ff awesomebar	10:45
Macer	:)	10:45
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Macer	Milhouse: microb isn't too bad... i wanted to try out chromium	10:46
Macer	i don't like google that much.. but chrome is great	10:46
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Milhouse	Macer: I find Opera starts more quickly - whenever I start MicroB from the bookmark screen it takes an age to load the first page (which is typically my list of bookmarks I have hosted on my own website... it's as if it's loading stuff into memory or reaaaaly slow to start resolving DNS)	10:47
Milhouse	Macer: I tried Chromium but it crashed way too much - barely worked.	10:47
Duckboot	Milhouse: Same behaviour here - Seems like MicroB have some DNS issues.	10:48
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ohwhyme	milhouse: u happen to have a solution so that pages dont show the mobile version of their website?	10:48
Duckboot	Milhouse: And the Speeddial in Opera is a killer feature.	10:48
Milhouse	Macer: I notice the new Safari has DNS prefetching - might be useful for MicroB :)	10:48
Macer	i get that problem with a few sites.. where it seems to take a while.. but i don't see how microb would have much to do with the dns	10:48
Milhouse	ohwhyme: in which browser? I don't normally have problems with Opera or MicroB - some sites have duff detection though	10:49
Milhouse	Duckboot: agreed	10:49
Duckboot	Macer: Better to use Opera-servers for DNS-resolving - They might even have a local DNS-cache or a full blown DNS locally.	10:49
Milhouse	Macer: It only seems really slow to begin with, when loading the first page so may not be DNS but could be loading libraries or other stuff. In general though the DNS resolution doesn't seem to be lightning fast, maybe something that could be improved in future.	10:50
Duckboot	BUT - and there is a capital but - I don't use Opera for sensitive browsing (Like logged in sessions at work), since my stuff is cached on a Opera Server, and I have no control over it.	10:51
Macer	not if meego has anything to say about it!	10:51
* Macer hides		10:51
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Milhouse	Duckboot: is it cached if you are NOT using Opera Turbo?	10:51
Surfa	shouldn't be	10:52
Surfa	if we're not talking about opera mini	10:52
Duckboot	Milhouse: Mmm - I think so, but I'm not sure. And, Not sure == Not use it.	10:52
Milhouse	Surfa: That would suggest there is some control that Duckboot has whether his data is cached or not...	10:52
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Milhouse	Duckboot: I don't see why it would be cached if you are NOT using Turbo. Totally agree it would be when using Turbo.	10:53
* lcuk presses Milhouse's turbo button		10:53
* Milhouse remembers Turbo buttons on PCs... how cr@p they were :)		10:54
Surfa	turbo is only mode when opera mobile is interacting with opera servers	10:54
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Surfa	oterwise it should go directly	10:54
Milhouse	Surfa: Aye	10:54
Milhouse	I stopped using Turbo because the graphics where too heavily compressed	10:55
lcuk	over 3g my images are compressed anyway afaik	10:55
Milhouse	by your ISP?	10:55
lcuk	ya	10:55
mece	~seen lostinmirkwood	10:55
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Milhouse	niiiice - who is it? mine is T-Mob UK, haven't noticed any obvious compression	10:55
infobot	lostinmirkwood is currently on #maemo (28m 10s), last said: '<alterego>, too bad seems that their installer for maemo has a bit of a bug.'.	10:55
lcuk	Milhouse, o2	10:56
Milhouse	ta	10:56
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Scelt	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53567&page=4&highlight=account-plugin-salut - anyone solved this problem?	10:57
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mece	lostinmirkwood, apparently a wiser tester than me found a blocker for Ansel-A. Here are some instructions to fix it: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=710001&postcount=31	10:57
mece	Scelt, it says EDIT: Solved on #31...	10:57
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Scelt	wat	10:59
mece	vat?	10:59
Scelt	How to install an older version of telepahty?	10:59
Scelt	I'm not installing older version	10:59
Scelt	I'm upgrading	10:59
mece	eehe ok.	10:59
mece	LOL	10:59
Scelt	apt-get dist-upgrade	10:59
Scelt	fails with telepathy-extras and account-plugin-salut	11:00
mece	Scelt, It was just the first thing I saw when I clicked your link.	11:00
X-Fade	Why would you dist-upgrade?	11:00
X-Fade	That is a nice way to set you up for a reflash.	11:00
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Scelt	Usually dist-upgrade works just as well	11:01
Scelt	such as it has been working with debian and me since 2001	11:01
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X-Fade	Yes, but it has never been supported for Maemo.	11:01
Scelt	no surprise for me. I would use the application manager gui if it wasn't so freaking slow	11:02
mece	I did an apt-get install mp-fremantle-generic-pr on one of the updates. worked fine.	11:02
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mece	Scelt, disable testing and devel for more speed.	11:03
Scelt	yeah, and actually not updating will speed it even more	11:03
mece	X-Fade, how does the community SSU thing work on diablo?	11:03
mece	scelt, what do you mean by that?	11:04
Scelt	sarcasm	11:04
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mece	hee :D	11:04
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mece	it's annoying when one's sarcasm detector fails.	11:04
Scelt	Can't disable devel and testing. I want to have the newest fmms changes immediately	11:05
mece	Scelt, :)	11:05
mece	hey frals, I finally went for fmms, and after a bit of messing about I actually got it working. Very nice :D	11:06
Scelt	X-Fade: application manager fails just as well as dist-upgrade. any other ideas?	11:06
mece	Scelt, what failed on dist-upgrade?	11:06
Scelt	installing process, wait for details	11:06
* mece waits for details		11:06
Scelt	/etc/init.d/avahi-daemon not found	11:07
mece	wtf?	11:07
Scelt	yeye	11:07
mece	spooky. I hate it when my demons go missing.	11:07
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mece	Scelt, how about apt-get install mp-fremantle-generic-pr	11:08
Scelt	that file is there	11:08
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Scelt	but for some reason install script wines about it	11:08
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crashanddie	does it cheese about it, too?	11:09
Scelt	no, only wine	11:09
mece	mm. I want wine and cheese	11:09
Scelt	I want pus... let's let it be	11:10
crashanddie	Scelt: oh, whine, sure.	11:10
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mece	hee	11:10
Scelt	crashanddie: ya, got my typo but I thought you got it too so didn't care to fix	11:10
crashanddie	I did, that was called sarcasm.	11:10
Scelt	I know	11:10
Scelt	but hey	11:11
Scelt	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=653761	11:11
Scelt	mohammed the fixer	11:11
Scelt	all hail the MohammadAG51	11:11
mece	indeed :D	11:11
Scelt	nice fix I would say	11:11
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*** MohammadAG51 was kicked by crashanddie (be hailed, you bastard)		11:12
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X-Fade	crashanddie: People can take that the wrong way, please be careful with that.	11:13
mece	hey, in the symbols virtual keyboard, what character is second row leftmost?	11:13
crashanddie	X-Fade: and if they do, I'll make sure to clarify it with them	11:13
Macer	mece: tab	11:14
X-Fade	crashanddie: Just don't want to lose valuable contributors like Mohammad because of misunderstandings.	11:14
hypothermia	i cant find anything about chaning the windows manager.., killall hildon-home just reboot..	11:14
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crashanddie	X-Fade: you won't	11:15
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mece	Macer, does it say "tab" on it?	11:16
hypothermia	doh, did you get what I asked?	11:16
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Scelt	I think Mohammad is such a nice guy that he can take all the jokes and pranks about himself. But maybe Mohammad is a bit of a crossed the line -subject.	11:16
Scelt	Wait, what?	11:16
mece	Macer, The missing one: http://s2.imgimg.de/uploads/Screenshot20100609212825f32b2f51png.png	11:16
visz	mece, the button is blank	11:16
visz	but there is one	11:16
mece	oh. wait. these are dependent on languages	11:16
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simon	connection lost ... any other irc server i can use?	11:18
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Macer	mece: on my vkb it is tab	11:18
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Macer	your layout is different than mine	11:19
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Macer	ugh	11:22
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Macer	microb just crashed again	11:22
Macer	it is starting to bug the hell out of me	11:23
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mece	Macer, that's not mine, but anyway the layout depends on what language you are using.	11:24
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Macer	mece: ah.. well.. i am using imperialistic US English	11:27
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Macer	soon the world shall be forced to use ounces and pounds!	11:27
Macer	im installing opera now	11:28
Macer	i will probably try out chromium later	11:29
Macer	im still holding out for a portrait media player	11:30
Macer	:/	11:30
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mece	Macer, I think chromium was removed... or how was it?	11:40
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mece	anyway, who wanted to know about screenprotectors?	11:40
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mece	this screenprotector actually improves the usability of the phone, because it's so slick and smooth. http://www.protectionfilms24.com/article/vikuiti-dqc-160-screen-protector-nokia-n900-28210.html	11:43
jacekowski	i have to get one	11:44
jacekowski	i already have 3 scratches	11:44
jacekowski	or i'll just drop it from 20m	11:44
jacekowski	and use my insurance	11:45
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mece	:D	11:49
mece	both are viable options.	11:49
mece	well I ordered a bunch of those.	11:49
DocScrutinizer	or you get a new ts glass for ~60 bucks	11:49
mece	hey anyone at #LinuxTag?	11:50
X-Fade	Or you just don't care. Let's say you protect your screen for 2 years and then replace your phone. You then protected your screen for a paperweight? :)	11:50
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X-Fade	Screenprotectors really take away some of the sensitivity.	11:51
DocScrutinizer	I replace glass after 2 years, that's what my suggestion above was all about	11:51
X-Fade	I usually replace the device with a new generation one ;)	11:52
mece	X-Fade, I guess it depends on how careful you are. I wanted those protectors because they make the device better. My screen is a bit.. sticky without it.	11:52
Appiah	sticky?	11:52
DocScrutinizer	I know I'll hate next generation Nxxx	11:52
mece	Appiah, well not sticky, but not slick like glass.	11:52
* lbt_ paid ~1.99 for 6 protectors... they're nice		11:52
mece	Appiah, and that protector feels slick like glass.	11:52
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Appiah	lbt_: which protector?	11:53
crashanddie	lmao	11:53
crashanddie	http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65960S20100610	11:53
lbt_	it's in the thread .... an ebay special	11:53
crashanddie	look at the picture in that story	11:53
mece	also didn't seem to affect the sensitivity	11:53
crashanddie	and then third or fourth paragraph down, it says "Goatse Security group"	11:53
mece	OMGLOL	11:54
mece	wtf?	11:54
Appiah	"The breach, first reported by the website Gawker on Wednesday, occurred when a group calling itself Goatse Security hacked into AT&T's"	11:54
mece	LOOOOOOL	11:54
Appiah	so people will google goatse	11:54
Appiah	and then go : WTF	11:54
Appiah	smart	11:54
Stskeeps	excellent	11:54
X-Fade	;)	11:54
crashanddie	Appiah: look at the picture	11:55
Appiah	crashanddie: OH	11:55
crashanddie	Appiah: they already found the goatse picture	11:55
Appiah	Now I get it	11:55
mece	man this is comedy gold!	11:55
Appiah	haha	11:55
Appiah	<--- Was a bit slow	11:55
crashanddie	"FBI probing AT&T"	11:55
mece	soo.... there are 4 reporters mentioned. which one is the funny one you think?	11:59
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RST38h	The one with his head stuck in his own ass?	12:00
RST38h	Oh, wait, that describes all four...	12:01
mece	lol	12:02
crashanddie	Hahaha... I just had an idea for an application... (no, nothing to do with Goatse)	12:03
Appiah	awww =(	12:03
crashanddie	Use the accelerometer to detect when the N900 is lifted, then start playing this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EHEcY2UI1M	12:03
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crashanddie	And detect when the N900 reaches the parrabellum of the elevator, and play the "ding" sound.	12:04
X-Fade	That should not be hard btw, n900fly already does the detection.	12:05
lcuk	that would get rather frustrating when you are just traveling	12:05
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crashanddie	lcuk: I said app, not daemon :P	12:05
crashanddie	X-Fade: indeed	12:05
crashanddie	X-Fade: maybe jsut adapt the curves a bit, doubt that elevators will be as hard as throwing shit	12:06
Appiah	haha	12:06
mece	hey, freeciv one 2 votes away from extras...	12:06
mece	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/freeciv-client-sdl/2.1.10-1maemo5v2.3/	12:06
lcuk	crashanddie, if its an app	12:09
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lcuk	just a widget with that tune would do to as X-Fade says wait for peak	12:09
Appiah	uuhh	12:09
Appiah	is there no way to login with openid on maemo talk?	12:09
lcuk	crashanddie, i also now want to watch morph	12:10
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MohammadAG51	Oi!	12:10
Appiah	wb	12:10
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* MohammadAG51 slaps crashanddie		12:10
jacekowski	Appiah: openid sucks	12:11
jacekowski	Appiah: and it's insecure	12:11
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MohammadAG51	Appiah, ty	12:11
Appiah	but maemo talk provides you with openid	12:11
Appiah	but you cant login with it , or others	12:11
Appiah	why is openID so insecure?	12:11
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jacekowski	because any bug in openid provider software and somebody gets access everywhere	12:12
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jacekowski	any administrator of that site can get access everywhere	12:12
Appiah	so thats why you can get an openid at maemo talk but not use it at maemo talk?	12:13
lcuk	jacekowski, is there a bug?	12:13
jacekowski	it's insecure by design	12:13
lcuk	i never asked that	12:13
lcuk	is there a bug in the implementation	12:14
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jacekowski	i bet there is	12:14
lcuk	have people reviewed it and identified it	12:14
jacekowski	nobody just found it yet	12:14
lcuk	i didnt ask that	12:14
Tachikoma	moin	12:14
lcuk	your dislike of openid then heads down FUD route	12:14
Appiah	:D	12:14
jacekowski	well, i had bad experiences with openid	12:14
X-Fade	On this issue I have to agree with jacekowski though.	12:15
lcuk	why didnt you document them or discuss with the openid specialists	12:15
lcuk	who might have agreed with you	12:15
jacekowski	biggest polish openid provider had a lot of issues with their implementation	12:16
Stskeeps	i vote for x509 certificates	12:16
Appiah	Well I take it as a no , there is no way to use your OpenID to login to talk.maemo.org	12:16
Appiah	Thank you	12:16
jacekowski	and it ended up with them losing whole database	12:16
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Appiah	maemo.org is just a provider	12:16
lcuk	X-Fade, so its not all roses!	12:16
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X-Fade	lcuk: No, you have to trust the people owning your openid provider.	12:17
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lcuk	isnt the idea of give trust, take trust	12:18
lcuk	you expect people to trust maemo.org :P	12:18
jacekowski	X-Fade: do you trust me?	12:18
jacekowski	lcuk: or you	12:18
X-Fade	jacekowski: no.	12:18
jacekowski	exactly	12:19
* MohammadAG51 sniggers		12:19
MohammadAG51	X-Fade, do you trust me?	12:19
jacekowski	only thing that would be reasonably safe is centralised password storage	12:19
X-Fade	MohammadAG51: Of course not.	12:19
jacekowski	so you send your encrypted passwords	12:20
MohammadAG51	grrr	12:20
* MohammadAG51 slaps X-Fade		12:20
jacekowski	and it's stored somewhere	12:20
jacekowski	if it's lost or something it's not a problem because it was encrypted	12:20
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: no, but X-Fade likes you. He slapped me on the wrist for kicking you, going the whole "boo, you may be losing us some good contributors if you keep doing that, y'all"	12:20
jacekowski	and your browser then pulls these passwords - decrypts locally and logs in	12:21
jacekowski	most of openid benefits	12:21
jacekowski	with less security problems	12:21
MohammadAG51	lol X-Fade don't worry about it (I'd settle for a temp +o though :P)	12:21
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o MohammadAG51		12:21
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*** MohammadAG51 sets mode: +b !slauwers@*Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie		12:22
*** crashanddie was kicked by MohammadAG51 (cya)		12:22
MohammadAG51	nah, that's too much	12:22
MohammadAG51	he can unban himself though	12:22
* MohammadAG51 waits for him to unban himself, otherwise i've pissed him off		12:22
*** ChanServ sets mode: -b !slauwers@*Maemo/community/contributor/crashanddie		12:22
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MohammadAG51	wb	12:23
*** MohammadAG51 sets mode: -o MohammadAG51		12:23
crashanddie	you actually made me look up a command on chanserv, damn you.	12:23
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MohammadAG51	LOL	12:23
MohammadAG51	/cs unban #channelname	12:23
MohammadAG51	you could've PM'd me :P	12:23
crashanddie	next time I'll use recover :P	12:24
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jacekowski	MohammadAG51: you could have requested permanent +o	12:24
crashanddie	no he couldn't have	12:25
crashanddie	well, he could've requested it	12:25
crashanddie	but after kicking me, he'll neva get it	12:25
MohammadAG51	why request something I won't get :P	12:25
* MohammadAG51 should've used akick		12:25
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: won't work	12:25
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: even I don't have akick	12:25
MohammadAG51	err	12:26
MohammadAG51	someone said they could use it	12:26
crashanddie	yeah, but not regular ops	12:26
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crashanddie	probably x-fade or GeneralAntilles	12:26
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MohammadAG51	it needs level 10 access on our server	12:26
MohammadAG51	not sure about IRCSeven	12:26
crashanddie	is that uber-paladin or just rogue?	12:26
MohammadAG51	lolwut	12:26
X-Fade	I'm Founder, so ... ;)	12:27
crashanddie	yeah, but you're not really the founder	12:27
MohammadAG51	lol	12:27
crashanddie	you have founder status, we all know you're a fraud	12:27
crashanddie	it's just for admin purposes	12:27
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X-Fade	Heh, I went through the registration process. Which took 2 years :)	12:27
X-Fade	Talk about commitment :D	12:27
crashanddie	you just idled, dude	12:28
MohammadAG51	/cs register took 2 years?	12:28
MohammadAG51	:P	12:28
crashanddie	it's like "I"m the founder", and two years later "hey, still founder" "uh, sure", "here you go"	12:28
X-Fade	No, registered org.	12:28
MohammadAG51	oh	12:28
MohammadAG51	you own maemo.org?	12:28
crashanddie	no	12:28
crashanddie	he represents the admin officer for #maemo	12:28
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MohammadAG51	i know that	12:28
X-Fade	No, but you have to register your org with freenode etc etc.	12:28
MohammadAG51	that's stupid lol	12:29
MohammadAG51	don't tell me it's for cloaks...	12:29
crashanddie	amongst other things	12:29
crashanddie	it used to be for services too.	12:29
crashanddie	(didn't have chanserv if not registered)	12:29
crashanddie	also, you should be using ##whatever (double pound-sign) if it's not an official project channel	12:30
marcus	I have a little problem with creating a .deb package for my n900: Where should I put the resources (imgs and music) that my .exe should read?	12:30
crashanddie	.exe?	12:30
MohammadAG51	.exe...	12:30
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crashanddie	resources == weed?	12:30
MohammadAG51	that's an insult to me tbh	12:30
crashanddie	are thee high?	12:30
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marcus	Oups	12:30
marcus	Too much Windows lately.	12:31
MohammadAG51	/usr/share/pixmaps anyways	12:31
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: not /opt? :P	12:31
marcus	Please accept my apologi :-)	12:31
woglinde	hms dont find a site how to setup pr1-2 sdk	12:31
crashanddie	marcus: I'll even accept your apology.	12:31
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, I think the whole folder was moved in 1.2 :)	12:31
woglinde	anyone can help me?	12:31
Ikarus	marcus: Windows on the brain	12:31
marcus	crashanddie: Please accept that as well.	12:31
crashanddie	woglinde: that's an interesting name for a ship.	12:31
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marcus	MohammedAG51: But when I manually add the imgs to /opt/, they are deleted when I compile the .deb	12:32
woglinde	crashanddie what?	12:32
woglinde	g	12:32
crashanddie	Ikarus: insane in the membrane? Windows in the brain?	12:32
lcuk	MohammadAG51, crashanddie yes, /usr/share/pixmaps is optified	12:32
lcuk	http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify-boottime/blobs/master/maemo-optify-auto-opt.conf#line24	12:32
MohammadAG51	marcus, debian/rules	12:32
woglinde	crashanddie sources.list would be enough	12:32
crashanddie	woglinde: HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship.	12:32
MohammadAG51	lcuk, see? I know what was optified :P	12:32
woglinde	autotoptify isnt that good	12:33
woglinde	crashanddie ah yes right	12:33
crashanddie	woglinde: that's why I said: interesting name for a ship, when you said < woglinde> hms dont find a site how to setup pr1-2 sdk	12:33
woglinde	crashanddie its something like sigh to	12:33
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crashanddie	lcuk: cool	12:33
crashanddie	lcuk: I kinda suspected it though, hence the smiley	12:33
woglinde	better optify by hand	12:34
marcus	So I should put the imgs in /usr/share/pixmaps, and then make the app read the images directly from /usr/share/pixmaps/APPNAME/pic1.jpeg	12:34
lcuk	woglinde, read up on maemo-optify-boottime, it tries to just take large whole folders	12:35
MohammadAG51	marcus, yeah	12:35
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woglinde	oh boottime okay	12:35
lcuk	and has logic to try and prevent recursive loops, ie it will not touch a folder thats already got opt links inside afaik	12:35
woglinde	so now back to sources.list for pr1.2	12:35
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marcus	MohammadAG51: Will give it a shot, and see if automaticly removes the imgs again, when compiling	12:35
woglinde	and I am happy	12:35
MohammadAG51	marcus, there's no such thing as automatic removal, you never added them to debian/rules	12:36
MohammadAG51	read the install: part in that file	12:36
marcus	AHA! :3	12:36
marcus	install: build	12:36
marcus	dh_testdir	12:36
marcus	dh_testroot	12:36
marcus	dh_clean -k	12:36
marcus	dh_installdirs	12:36
marcus	# Add here commands to install the package into debian/fixedratepigs.	12:36
marcus	$(MAKE) INSTALL_ROOT="$(CURDIR)"/debian/fixedratepigs install	12:36
marcus	That part?	12:37
marcus	Oups, crap. Sorry for spam	12:37
MohammadAG51	yes	12:37
MohammadAG51	add a cp	12:37
marcus	after the command to install, I guess?	12:37
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ghostcube	hmm, who killed the maemo.org site :P	12:37
MohammadAG51	cp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/usr/share/pixmaps/	12:38
MohammadAG51	after the make install	12:38
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MohammadAG51	also add usr/share/pixmaps in debian/dirs	12:38
marcus	Thanks, I will give it a shot.	12:38
MohammadAG51	without the first /	12:38
marcus	Like this? $(MAKE) INSTALL_ROOT="$(CURDIR)"/debian/fixedratepigs install	12:39
marcus	cp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/usr/share/pixmaps/	12:39
marcus	Or should I have the $ in front.	12:39
MohammadAG51	replace the path/to/images/folder with the right path	12:39
marcus	Yeah.	12:39
MohammadAG51	oh wait	12:40
MohammadAG51	cp -a -r $(CURDIR)/path/to/images/folder $(CURDIR)/debian/fixedratepigs/usr/share/pixmaps/	12:40
MohammadAG51	now it's right :P	12:40
woglinde	sigh	12:41
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: you spammer! moinmoin	12:41
woglinde	common only the sources.list	12:41
* MohammadAG51 kicks DocScrutinizer		12:41
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DocScrutinizer	ghostcube: meee	12:42
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ghostcube	DocScrutinizer: hmmm i would have bet 50 bucks if you dont have told mne now	12:42
ghostcube	:D	12:42
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ghostcube	hihi	12:42
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marcus	MohammadAG51: So the place where I copy the files from, should be on my local machine, and then the rules part, automaticly copy them to my debian pkg, is that correct?	12:43
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MohammadAG51	$(CURDIR) is where dpkg-buildpackage is started from	12:43
marcus	Aha. So it should be somewhere in my "uncompiled" package.	12:44
woglinde	hm hm	12:44
woglinde	okay then you will get not a new navit package	12:44
woglinde	bah	12:44
marcus	MohammadAG51: Should pixmaps be a complete mess, or should I create a folder within pixmaps?	12:45
MohammadAG51	as you wish :P	12:46
MohammadAG51	i'd say make a folder though	12:46
marcus	I'll see what happens o.o	12:47
Appiah	BOOM	12:47
Appiah	i bet	12:47
marcus	:p	12:47
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achipa	okay, who killed the maemo.org repos ? Not me again I hope...	12:50
X-Fade	achipa: ?	12:50
X-Fade	Just installing mypaint from extras, works for me?	12:51
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achipa	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/python2.5-qt4-doc/4.7.3-maemo5/	12:51
achipa	Server error: Failed to load component net.nehmer.static: Component not in manifest list.	12:51
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Appiah	works fine	12:52
X-Fade	achipa: reload?	12:52
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achipa	hm, I swear I pressed reload 3 times previously and it came back with that error...	12:53
Appiah	:)	12:53
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X-Fade	achipa: Sure :)	12:53
achipa	no, seriously, the error page even has a time stamp	12:53
X-Fade	achipa: Yes, I flushed cache on that server ;)	12:53
achipa	ah... ok...	12:54
woglinde	hm okay	12:54
woglinde	its all automagicly now	12:54
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achipa	http://maemo.org/news/	13:15
achipa	gives me an empty page, too	13:15
achipa	yes, I pressed reload repeatedly :)	13:15
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ghostcube	achipa: DocScrutinizer killd the server :P	13:18
achipa	ghostcube: how ? did he post a news that PR1.3 is out ?	13:19
woglinde	lol	13:19
SpeedEvil	The next release is PRsqrt(2)	13:19
SpeedEvil	They weren't rational about the numbering.	13:19
ghostcube	PRpi o.O	13:19
satmd	:D	13:20
* satmd still waits for a fix on the icq account		13:20
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DocScrutinizer	achipa: I uploaded the definition of recursion	13:20
ghostcube	woah, the one steve jobs hides under his bed?	13:21
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DocScrutinizer	and pointed to it with a selfrefering symlink	13:21
DocScrutinizer	~recursion	13:21
satmd	woa, those are evil!	13:21
infobot	To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. see ~recursion	13:21
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DocScrutinizer	then, when the load hit the roof, I started tracing network traffic on the servers to my local console	13:24
DocScrutinizer	to see what's wrong... :-S	13:24
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DocScrutinizer	still trying to analyze the logs :-P	13:25
ghostcube	DocScrutinizer: bad ass chinese hackaaas	13:25
ghostcube	:D	13:25
* satmd resortet to iptables -A INPUT -m geoip --geoip-src CN -j DROP a month ago		13:25
satmd	don't like it, but nothing helped	13:26
crashanddie	resortet?	13:26
satmd	t suffix = german past tense :P	13:26
satmd	resorted	13:26
satmd	typical german typo	13:26
crashanddie	resorted?	13:26
satmd	yes	13:26
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: don't spoil his excellent german grammar please ;-P	13:27
DocScrutinizer	most do it wrong here	13:27
crashanddie	oh, you mean "you had to resort to"	13:27
* satmd takes notes		13:27
satmd	13 years of school english doesn't make perfect	13:27
satmd	+me	13:27
satmd	but chat sure does :D	13:27
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SpeedEvil	Where ar eyou from?	13:28
SpeedEvil	Oh	13:28
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: it's not chat	13:28
jacekowski	not you	13:28
jacekowski	satmd: it's not a chat	13:28
jacekowski	satmd: it's IRC	13:28
satmd	fun fact: been working on unreal and inspircd and being that is just lol	13:29
satmd	+told	13:29
mece	bäääck! What is up maemonians?	13:29
SpeedEvil	Not much.	13:30
SpeedEvil	PR1.2 was released.	13:30
mece	LOL	13:30
SpeedEvil	Also - there is now a phone in the N*** range.	13:31
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mece	SpeedEvil, the mythical N900?	13:32
mece	is there a video of the linuxtag meego/maemo stuff?	13:33
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo \| http://maemo.org/ \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org/ \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Free software mirror: http://espejo.freemoe.org/"		13:36
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mece	ok.. hopefully some of it will appear here: http://www.linuxtag.org/2010/en/linuxtag-tv.html later.	13:41
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achipa	oooh, what's this ? 'Remote Compiler allows you to push the compilation to an external Nokia Server'	13:44
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BCMM	achipa: is that something like distcc?	13:50
mece	achipa, sounds sweet! Where is this?	13:50
achipa	BCMM: dunno, just installed the plugin, still trying to find out what exactly it does and how :)	13:51
achipa	nokia qt sdk, start updater and switch over to components	13:51
mece	achipa, is there a new version out?	13:51
achipa	ummm, the release candidate from yesterday ?	13:51
mece	sweetness!	13:52
mece	I haven't been following.	13:52
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mece	Khertan, ping	13:54
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mece	~seen khertan	13:54
infobot	khertan <~Khertan@AAmiens-155-1-51-205.w92-142.abo.wanadoo.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 36m 25s ago, saying: 'bye'.	13:54
mece	~seen khertan_	13:54
infobot	khertan_ <~d4eabb96@gateway/web/freenode/x-xlpumktyfckxtdiz> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 7d 20h 19m 17s ago, saying: 's/it/he'.	13:54
mece	grr what is the nick he uses?	13:55
ghostcube	achipa: something like launchpad eh?	13:57
achipa	i guess... don't know how that fits OBS plans...	13:58
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jacekowski	would it be ok if i would host chromium in my own repository, and then post a link to it on tmo or somewhere?	14:20
RST38h	Yes, it would be ok, until your provider receives a takedown notice	14:25
SpeedEvil	Which you can then inform them to ignore	14:25
RST38h	Then, there are several possible ways the events may develop	14:25
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SpeedEvil	The way your provider should deal with it is - they get takedown notice - they may takedown your stuff - you state that it's not infringing, and it gets put back up	14:26
SpeedEvil	Or just teach HAM about bittorrent.	14:26
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SpeedEvil	Is it me, or is every edit link on the wiki dead?	14:36
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_CPU&action=edit&section=6	14:36
SpeedEvil	Fatal error: Call to undefined function makeTitleSafe() in /usr/share/mediawiki/includes/Revision.php on line 281	14:36
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SpeedEvil	dneary: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Dneary - were you poking at this a couple of nights ago?	14:38
dneary	SpeedEvil, Have I killed wiki edits?	14:38
dneary	Eek!	14:38
SpeedEvil	It was working after you had done stuff.	14:39
SpeedEvil	It's certainly not been broken since then	14:39
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dneary	Working now?	14:39
SpeedEvil	Seems to be	14:39
SpeedEvil	yes	14:40
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mece	thinking on putting libhildonfm2-community in extras-devel. Any objections?	14:41
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* SpeedEvil objects!		14:44
SpeedEvil	(not really)	14:44
SpeedEvil	this is the file manager/.	14:44
mece	yes	14:44
SpeedEvil	Planning on fixes?	14:44
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mece	SpeedEvil, well I have done the extension displaying thing.	14:44
SpeedEvil	I've been using cuteexplorer, which is OK	14:44
lcuk	mece - extension displaying thing?	14:45
mece	SpeedEvil, yeah, but this one affects the filepicker dialogs too.	14:45
mece	lcuk, well filemanager and filepicker doesnt display extensions. so I fixed that.	14:45
lcuk	do you want to file a bug and include a patch?	14:45
SpeedEvil	Module Size Used by pn-pep 12992 0 g-nokia 30504 6 vfat 9600 1 [http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/./fs/fat/vfat.c Module source] fat 43420 1 vfat [http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/./fs/fat/fat.c fat source] sd-mod 20372 0 scsi-mod 82016 1 sd_mod iphb 3300 1 [http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/./net/ipv4/netfilter/iphb.c sd-mod source] rfcomm 33620 14 [http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/./net/bluetooth/rfcom	14:46
SpeedEvil	argh	14:46
mece	lcuk, it's already a wontfix so I don't think they want it into upstream	14:46
mece	or whatever it's called, the official stuff.	14:46
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SpeedEvil	Did I really paste all that?	14:46
lcuk	if its a wontfix and you fixed it	14:46
mece	haha LOL	14:46
mece	lcuk, but they want it the crappy way. It's a supereasy fix, also for nokia.	14:47
lcuk	sure mece :)	14:47
mece	lcuk, but they don't want it. hence the "community" edition. Besides you'd have to wait for pr1.3 to get it.	14:47
SpeedEvil	Won'tfixes are also improperly used for invalid	14:47
SpeedEvil	IMO	14:47
SpeedEvil	'conforms to spec' should be invalid	14:47
lcuk	mece "they"	14:47
lcuk	i think its great you are hacking on it	14:48
lcuk	if therers a patch there for something lots of people want then.. ?	14:48
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lcuk	mece, please submit it as a patch on the bug report	14:49
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mece	lcuk, I don't know how to do it.	14:49
mece	it's bug #430	14:50
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430 Show and edit filename extensions	14:50
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mece	lcuk, I don't know how to create a patch I mean.	14:50
lcuk	ok mece :)	14:51
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lcuk	do you have a git	14:51
lcuk	because you should be able to ask git to give you the patch between the official version and yours	14:52
mece	lcuk, nice.	14:52
lcuk	and add that as an attachment onto the bug report	14:52
lcuk	it shows you have supplied a fix and it shows which versions its on :)	14:53
mece	well i've modified the packaging alot right now, but I can do the code mods on the original.	14:53
lcuk	yes, please do :)	14:53
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mece	lcuk, should I clone the official git, or is it enough to dl the tarball, create git and then mod and then diff?	14:53
lcuk	mece - git itself holds all its info but the tarball does not	14:54
mece	lcuk, so where do I find it?	14:54
lcuk	the tarball is a snapshot, if you clone the repository	14:54
lcuk	it downloads the files and all the history	14:55
mece	lcuk, yeah. but where is the repository?	14:55
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mece	for this: libhildonfm_2.28.18+0m5	14:55
lcuk	oh crap i thought it was on gitorious did you just apt-get source it	14:56
mece	lcuk, it might be. I actually just dl:d the tarball from repository.maemo.org	14:56
lcuk	right mece, i see	14:57
lcuk	just turn the original 2.28.18 into a git repository and then make your changes ontop	14:58
mece	lcuk, will do.	14:58
lcuk	i forgot hildon-fm isnt directly on gitorious	14:58
* lcuk is used to many of these components being there		14:58
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mece	ok hold on..	14:59
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mece	lcuk, do I want git root in asdf/libhildonfm-2.28.18+0m5/ or in asdf/	15:01
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mece	probly the first option.	15:01
melmoth	anybody succeeded in installing maemo-sdk-install-wizard_5.0.py on a ubuntu 10.04 ?	15:01
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melmoth	each time i try to install a maemo sdk, i need to restart 4 times before it works.... some things never change :-(	15:01
melmoth	now, with the new graphic thingy... things just fail, and leave me with a scratchbox half installed.	15:02
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alterego	i've always installed manually, and in a vm.	15:04
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melmoth	i always do it on a vm too.	15:04
DocScrutinizer	vm in a vm in a vm	15:05
DocScrutinizer	:-P	15:05
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe sb isn't exactly a vm	15:05
alterego	i've always installed manually, and in a vm.	15:06
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melmoth	well... I ll install it another day...	15:07
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mece	lcuk, ok, mods done. What do I do now?	15:08
lcuk	right mece you said theres a bug report thats been wontfixed	15:09
mece	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430	15:10
povbot	Bug 430: Show and edit filename extensions	15:10
mece	lcuk, I havent gotten the "patch" data yet. should I first commit the changes? I commited the original before doing anything.	15:10
lcuk	i think "git diff" will show you the patch	15:11
mece	ok.	15:11
mece	after I've committed it i guess?	15:11
mece	oh.. just git diff without committing works..	15:12
lcuk	no need actually, the git diff will compare whats there now	15:12
lcuk	with any prior commits	15:12
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mece	ok. then what? do I simply pipe git diff to something or what?	15:12
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mece	lcuk, here is the diff: http://pastebin.com/R77d7yJQ	15:14
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dneary	OK - things are supposed to be working now :)	15:16
dneary	Sorry for the disruption with the wiki	15:16
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Khertan_Home	Hi !	15:17
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Khertan	Hi again :)	15:17
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Khertan	http://wiki.meego.com/BOSS <<< seems features creeped ... far from : "Keep It Simple and Smart"	15:18
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GeneralAntilles	Is there anything less professional than diagrams with spelling "errors"?	15:19
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mece	Khertan, I made a fix for the filename extension for file picker dialog and file manager? You still need that?	15:19
lcuk	mece, it would be great if you would add that text to a patch attachment on the bug. make notes about it and explain what it does and does not do	15:19
GeneralAntilles	Why is that now the hallmark of open source diagrams and presentations?	15:19
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mece	lcuk, which text? the comments in the file?	15:20
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lcuk	yes, the file generated when you piped git diff	15:20
Khertan	mece, oh ... yes could be interesting ... but how did you do ? patching the header ?	15:20
mece	Khertan, no modified libhildonfm2 source. Made a community package that replaces the lib file and even backs up the original :)	15:21
lcuk	Khertan, could you discuss with mece about making a gitorious account perhaps, so he can make a branch on gitorious	15:21
mece	lcuk, I could make it on garage too. i have a gitorious account.	15:21
Khertan	:)	15:21
mece	anyway, how do I submit the patch to the bug then?	15:22
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alterego	has anyone looked at building the fremantal ui from git? i was going to attempt building some of the elements like the home screen.	15:22
lcuk	mece on the bug 430 page	15:23
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430 Show and edit filename extensions	15:23
lcuk	Attachment Type Creator Created Size Actions	15:23
lcuk	Create a New Attachment (proposed patch, testcase, etc.) View All	15:23
mece	lcuk, ok but what do the patch look like?	15:23
lcuk	the same thing you pastebinned	15:24
mece	lcuk, as a file?	15:24
lcuk	yeah, i normally do something like	15:24
lcuk	git diff >bug_430_proposed_fix.patch	15:24
mece	ok so if I do git .. right :D that	15:25
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* GeneralAntilles finds the comments here utterly bizarre. http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/maemo-missteps-for-2010/		15:25
lcuk	just make sure in the comment you make, you make notes about the version you based it on and what mods it makes and its scope etc	15:25
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lcuk	mece, thanks for your hacking btw \o	15:26
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alterego	GeneralAntilles: the whole of maemo as far as community has become somewhat of a twilight zone :P	15:27
mece	lcuk, like which files are modified and what they do?	15:27
GeneralAntilles	alterego, the A.T. / silpol comment I must be misreading.	15:27
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GeneralAntilles	Because it sounds like an attack on Texrat.	15:27
GeneralAntilles	claiming he's hiding anonymity is . . . interestingy.	15:28
lcuk	mece, the file list is done, its more how this effects what is seen and stuff	15:28
GeneralAntilles	s/interestingy/interesting	15:28
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Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: i read it as the people on talk.maemo.org hiding behind anonymity	15:28
Stskeeps	not texrat	15:28
GAN900	Stskeeps, ah.	15:29
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alterego	GAN900: i don't think he's a Nokian tbh.	15:32
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GAN900	alterego, dunno	15:33
GAN900	Blog looks fairly authentic.	15:33
Arkenoi	sp, linux flash is updated to fix security bug. ours is not.	15:33
alterego	he sounds shock ingly like abill_uk ;) but then all the general negativity and slightly flamy comments seem to all sound like one whinging little bitchy teen :D	15:33
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Stskeeps	what if abill_uk -was- a nokia employee.. ;p	15:33
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psycho_oreos	which might explain why red pill mode was eventually removed ;)	15:34
GAN900	Song on the radio this morning is the same song it was as it was when I got out last night playing at almost the same spot.	15:34
* RST38h moos evilly and asks for a bloody sacrifice		15:34
GAN900	Creepy.	15:34
alterego	Stskeeps: it's always a possibility, as he did claim to have "inside" knowledge of the leaked firmware ..	15:34
RST38h	GAN900: Sure it is not in the CD player mode? =)	15:34
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GAN900	RST38h, quite	15:35
alterego	Still, he sounds like a reckless moron, and not the kind of person zi'd expect anyone to employ as he sounds like an idiot kid :/	15:35
mece	lcuk how about this: http://pastebin.com/Q2qVNiJL	15:36
mece	lcuk as a comment. I want to be politically correct here and not annoying.	15:36
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lcuk	sounds reasonable mece, but thats got feature creep over it :p	15:37
mece	lcuk, how would you put it?	15:37
mece	lcuk, I suck at this kind of thing.	15:38
lcuk	mece, dont fret :) your description is good	15:38
mece	lcuk, ok fine. I'm posting it.	15:38
lcuk	i just wonder why the fremantle bug itself	15:38
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lcuk	got assigned as clone of 430	15:38
lcuk	which is clearly old old maemo	15:38
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mece	lcuk, yeah I was fascinated by the low number there :D	15:39
MohammadAG51	1:20 left till the WC starts :)	15:39
lcuk	me too, its quite an interesting one, i like the idea	15:39
lcuk	mece, submit it on 430 :D	15:40
RST38h	bug #430	15:40
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430 Show and edit filename extensions	15:40
lcuk	its clearly right to have been on 9525 but its amusing at same time	15:40
lcuk	bug 9525	15:40
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9525 Unable to distinguish files in File Manager	15:40
alterego	I want to start building harmattan components on top of the MeeGo code drop	15:41
mece	oh well I posted.	15:41
alterego	not sure if I can be bothered though.	15:41
RST38h	lcuk: Well, this will definitely be marked as "enhancement" with ETA set to "never"	15:41
alterego	heh	15:41
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mece	anyway there is my magical replacement package for those that want it right fn now :)	15:42
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lcuk	RST38h, the code now exists. the right thing to do is to assign it against a bug.	15:42
RST38h	It almost feels like Maemo Devices and Lada Cars share the same business processes	15:42
lcuk	mece :) thanks	15:43
RST38h	lcuk: That has also been done before (see Maemo4 screen rotation, xterm patches). It makes no significant difference.	15:43
SpeedEvil	It's good practice.	15:45
SpeedEvil	It can be used as ammo in principle.	15:45
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Khertan	lcuk, and it there is other duplicate of #430 which was closed for won't fix	15:48
xkr47-DI	\o	15:48
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crashanddie	lcuk: you're going to like this: http://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photosynth.html	15:50
lcuk	crashanddie, ive seen it i believe	15:50
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mece	Khertan, here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=710395&postcount=14	15:51
mece	and everyone else that want the filemanager fix thing.	15:52
mece	good luck :D	15:52
mece	I'm out. ta.	15:52
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Khertan	You can't install this from HAM <<< ah ... could not be use so for iser	15:53
Khertan	You can't install this from HAM <<< ah ... could not be use so for user	15:53
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Khertan	but thx for the Patch mece	15:54
Khertan	at least i ll use it personnaly :)	15:54
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GAN900	alterego, yeah, after some of my encounters with MeeGo Devices people. . . . :P	15:59
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* GAN900 would really like to push that discussion to somewhere higher profile.		16:06
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alterego	heh, you would be the one to know :)	16:08
alterego	I need to find a freakin' job, I'm so bored.	16:08
* Khertan didn't understand this discussion ...		16:08
Khertan	:)	16:08
alterego	I also need to come up with another integration idea for Maemo/N900	16:09
GAN900	Khertan, Texrat's blog post about Nokia's idiocy.	16:09
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GAN900	http://planet.maemo.org	16:10
Khertan	ah ... ok :)	16:10
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Khertan	i ve put a comment on it :)	16:10
alterego	alsol, any of you guys fancy testing me app to vote it into extras :)	16:10
alterego	need 8 more!	16:10
b-man17	sure, i'll vote :)	16:10
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Khertan	this war, t.m.o whine ... make me lost most of my interest in the community	16:10
GAN900	Khertan, it's Nokia that killing my enthusiasm	16:11
* b-man avoids tmo as much as he can		16:11
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alterego	Has anyone done a brainstorm on dev only are of tmo?	16:11
Khertan	yep i consider we are still fighting again some "closed" nokia decision	16:11
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alterego	s/are/area	16:11
GAN900	Talk whining is simply a product of Nokia's anti-community attitudes and policies.	16:11
Khertan	GAN900, yep nokia is the first reason	16:12
Surfa	i must admit that t.m.o is one of the most disgusting forums I've ever seen	16:12
Khertan	talk is resulting of the first ...	16:12
GAN900	alterego, define "dev"	16:12
alterego	GAN900: well, there is more to it that that.	16:12
GAN900	Surfa, you don't get out much, do you? :P	16:12
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alterego	GAN900: community developer, not nessassarily software :D	16:12
Surfa	GAN900, going out and discussing on forums are related how? :)	16:12
Khertan	but i was expected more a community of people creating turn around .. than waiting and whining	16:12
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b-man	moderation on tmo seems short-handed	16:13
GAN900	alterego, "contributor"	16:13
alterego	Seems a bit lax.	16:13
GAN900	Surfa, in-context	16:13
DocScrutinizer	~status	16:13
infobot	Since Fri Jun 11 13:08:26 2010, there have been 0 modifications, 0 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 0 commands. I have been awake for 4m 55s this session, and currently reference 117070 factoids. I'm using about 15524 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 6.8/0.94 child 0.13/0.09	16:13
GAN900	We're on the internet, you're not getting out enough on it if you think Talk is bad. :P	16:13
alterego	GAN900: yeah, but I'd already said dev. so I thought I'd push that :P	16:13
Surfa	GAN900, or perhaps I go out too much and don't spend enough time on different forums?	16:13
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GAN900	alterego, yeah, Reggie is very much a hands off sort of admin	16:14
GAN900	Surfa, __context__	16:14
b-man	try looking at 4chan's /b/ lol	16:14
Surfa	actually t.m.o is worse than motorcycling forums and that is bad :)	16:14
Surfa	really bad	16:14
GAN900	Surfa, it's a joke, man. :)	16:14
alterego	hahah	16:14
Khertan	it s just an feeling ... or does their is less third party developpers now and application developpment than one year ago ... ?	16:15
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b-man	"newbies get eaten alive on t.m.o like a bloody trout in a tank of hungry sharks" lol	16:16
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alterego	i think there is a blatant la of enthusiasm.	16:16
GAN900	Shit, how do I post a new thread in a forum. . . .	16:16
Myrtti	what you people need is more cheesecake	16:16
GAN900	alterego, quite obviously	16:17
alterego	We were always excited with previous devices. now we all have what we all wanted in the N900 (pretty much) it's kind of bad.	16:17
Stskeeps	i wonder if we stopped being activistic	16:17
GAN900	and it wasn't for initial lack of it	16:17
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GAN900	Nokia just choose to cut us off at the knees and kill all of the enthusiasm and goodwill	16:17
GAN900	and it's going to hurt MeeGo, too.	16:17
melmoth	my enthusiasm decreased with the regular strategic changes (gtk->qt, .deb->rpm).I think it died when i realised i needed an intel machine to run the meego emulator.	16:18
* melmoth is studying qt none the less.		16:18
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Stskeeps	meego netbook ux, and i still think its cos people dont drop in nvidia libGL for instance	16:19
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ptl	GAN900: I agree wholeheartedly	16:19
alterego	exactly, the N900 is what I hoped maemo devices would become but we've now been flooded by impatient customers that think the community forum is a good plac eto bitch about "290 crap apps" and their dissapointment with Nokia.	16:20
Appiah	290 crap apps?	16:20
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achipa	I wonder if MeeGo as such will have a community at all, or just the Moblin style dev-camaraderie, with the rest of the people on device-specific forums	16:20
b-man	alterego: i agree	16:21
achipa	alterego: I protest ! We have 308 crap apps !	16:21
alterego	Appiah: just paraphrasing a post I read yesterday that was pretty insulting tbh.	16:21
alterego	and I'm not really heavily developing, but we all contribute.	16:22
DocScrutinizer	Myrtti: ack	16:22
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alterego	and I think there are some kick ass apps.even now, I think we have the most functional device. what are these apps people want? why can't they just tell us so we can provide?	16:23
Stskeeps	achipa: i think its important to see it not as community vs company. its more about committers and people without commit bits. and there's same opportunities to become a team member and provide yourself..	16:23
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achipa	alterego: super-duper 3D games and fart apps with cool UIs	16:23
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Termana	<b-man> try looking at 4chan's /b/ lol <--- I wouldn't insult /b/ too much, we might hear you!	16:23
alterego	I spend most of my time getting pissed that I can't think of a ecent app to develop. I'm just waiting for a good idea I can get into and enthused about and I'm sure I' not the only one.	16:24
b-man	Termana: hehehe	16:24
achipa	Stskeeps: I'm not talking company perspective at all, just trying to fit Joe User into MeeGo and have difficulties fitting him in there, meego-community and forum.meego.com notwithstanding	16:24
alterego	Well, tbh, I'm not interested or evn good at game dev :D	16:24
Stskeeps	achipa: yeah.. that is difficult cos meego isnt the product as such.. the stuff built on top is	16:25
Khertan	personnaly ... i didn't have any interest in meego for the moment	16:25
achipa	Stskeeps: exactly	16:25
Stskeeps	there's a lot of ambivalence	16:25
* Arkenoi still cannot understand why, despite having great developer community, Nokia sucks that much. why people are able to develop and fix everything lightspeed fast outside nokia and if something depends on something inside nokia everything just goes wrong		16:26
RST38h	Arkenoi: There is a simple answer to that	16:26
alterego	We're not tied down with legalities and corporate chains.	16:26
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achipa	Stskeeps: and special per-device per-manufacturer APIs are not helping	16:27
DocScrutinizer	Arkenoi: +1	16:27
RST38h	Arkenoi: It is a corporation. It's business is governed by corporate decisions, made by people who are not aware that developers exist, do not know who they are, what they want, and basically have not communicated with any live people at work for the last 10+ years	16:27
Stskeeps	achipa: per manufacturer apis are notoriously difficult if they arent in 'meego sdk'	16:27
RST38h	Arkenoi: [other corpses obviously not inlucded]	16:27
pexi	there are lots of rumours @ finnish media atm how nokia should/could/will/may re-organize their strategy and leaders	16:27
Appiah	time to take down "the man"? :)	16:27
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* achipa shivers at the thought of the incoming Ovi API		16:28
jacekowski	ovi	16:28
Stskeeps	achipa: but its better (imho) that we finally have a platform we actually can have influence on.	16:28
RST38h	Arkenoi: There is actually a great historic example of such a structure taking a fall: Commodore	16:28
jacekowski	you are talking about that mythical shop	16:28
jacekowski	that will work properly one day	16:28
GAN900	pexi, down with Anssi.	16:28
pupnik	"interesting times" :/	16:28
RST38h	Arkenoi; At the end, their actions lacked any kind of detectable logic	16:28
achipa	Stskeeps: will we ? still not exactly convinced	16:28
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MohammadAG51	apt-worker is one fucked up piece of shit	16:28
Appiah	is OVI that bad? I haven't used it ... Dont wanna register at nokia...	16:28
Khertan	Stskeeps: you finnally have a plateform where you feel to have influence on	16:28
RST38h	pupnik: What? Have been reading dailyrotten ? :)	16:28
ptl	MohammadAG51: btw, do you still have that uncrippled apt you recompiled?	16:29
pupnik	people always bitch about appstores	16:29
ptl	MohammadAG51: I can't find it on your site	16:29
b-man	MohammadAG51: it's annoying and a resource hog	16:29
Khertan	Appiah, of course it s bad ... you cannot submit python apps	16:29
MohammadAG51	ptl, I'll dig for it in a bit, but I have it	16:29
Appiah	Khertan: eeeh what?	16:29
ptl	MohammadAG51: thanks	16:29
jacekowski	Khertan: python is a scripting language	16:29
Khertan	jacekowski, and ?	16:29
jacekowski	Khertan: you can't make an application in it	16:29
MohammadAG51	ptl, ovi store doesn't use it btw ;)	16:29
achipa	pupnik: Ovi needs improvement so it could GET to the phase where people could bitch about it :)	16:29
Khertan	jacekowski, LOL	16:29
jacekowski	C FTW	16:30
achipa	jacekowski: C is a no go, too	16:30
jacekowski	even python is C based	16:30
Stskeeps	achipa: if you have merit, you have influence	16:30
Khertan	yeah ... but c sucks !!! it s too slow ! use directly ASM !	16:30
ptl	MohammadAG51: guess not, but I'm tired of trying to download fennec and the likes and getting Handler silently failed	16:30
Appiah	so if I make a pymaemo application its not a application but a script	16:30
b-man	achipa: the linux kernel is c	16:30
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Appiah	Guess we need a "Script Manager"	16:30
DocScrutinizer	yawn	16:30
achipa	b-man: you can't download the linux kernel from Ovi	16:31
Appiah	beside the Application Manager	16:31
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GAN900	Stskeeps, do you?	16:31
Stskeeps	GAN900: yes, i do	16:31
GAN900	I hear that said a lot, but I'm not seeing a lot of it	16:31
GAN900	You're paid	16:31
Khertan	Stskeeps, didn't see anything noticeable :)	16:31
MohammadAG51	porting synaptics would be cool	16:31
Stskeeps	GAN900: i still function as a community member.	16:31
achipa	Stskeeps: I have yet to see that function in practice. We threw out karma, so it's currently buddy-o-cracy with Intel+Nokia BDFL-ism	16:32
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Khertan	or worse	16:32
achipa	Stskeeps: (not that karma is a guarantee of anything, but currently we have a purely a subjective estimate of merit)	16:32
Arkenoi	RST38h, redhat and sun/orcale are big corporations too. but they can work with opensource without messing everything up.	16:32
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Surfa	explain, how has nokia messed up?	16:33
RST38h	Arkenoi: First, Sun/Oracle cannot really work with open source developers	16:33
alterego	I'm sure most of us understand what itams like working for a stupid short sighted corp that try to seem like they'r looking into the future.	16:33
achipa	Stskeeps: for example, what level of Merit would one need to lift SSSE3 requirements ?	16:33
RST38h	Arkenoi: Secondly, in both these cases (especially Redhat's) you have got a corporation living off open source developers, taking their stuff and adopting it for its own needs	16:33
achipa	Stskeeps: or to actively push for a more proactive 3rd party video driver approach ?	16:33
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Arkenoi	yes, why don't do the same	16:33
RST38h	Arkenoi: As a matter of fact, Nokia is going this as well in Maemo, and sending a lot fo stuff upstream too	16:34
alterego	developers usually have the best ideas, but management really don't give a shit what you think, unless they can steal it and say it was their idea.	16:34
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Arkenoi	i'd be happy if many extras apps will become builtin	16:34
RST38h	Arkenoi: But this model has nothign to do with developers support	16:34
Myrtti	This Too Shall Pass	16:34
Stskeeps	achipa: ssse3 is funny - it does make sense to optimize for it. but i see no reason why sdk should build for it (qt)	16:34
* RST38h passes Myrtti a doughnut		16:34
Stskeeps	just like apps should built for v5, not v7	16:34
* DocScrutinizer shares the coffee		16:35
RST38h	Arkenoi: You are not committing to anything by taking OSS code and modifying it as you see fit	16:35
Stskeeps	achipa: third party approach - suggest one. intel cant legally drop in nvidia libs :)	16:35
Stskeeps	and by that, i mean LF	16:35
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DocScrutinizer	actually this feels like Friday afternoon - wait it is... :-P	16:36
alterego	well, it's even worse when you have entity like us (the maemo community) management probably odon't even kbow the tuerm community ... :D	16:36
RST38h	Arkenoi: For example you are not promising that you will take every new version, every code patch, heed any criticism of the company made in the forums, however just	16:36
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pexi	alterego, well in lean/agile methods the core development team has an important role from management point of view.. but ofc it is hard to implement it for big organizations	16:36
achipa	Stskeeps: I understand that, just saying that the whole things just reeks of 'we do it our way' and I can't see the 'this is the super-universal standard all mobile linux gadgets will be base on' spirit	16:36
alterego	MeeGo has potential, it is apparently going to be more open.	16:36
DocScrutinizer	though this particular Fri aft chan mood is quite whiny	16:37
alterego	the community can make choices.	16:37
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Arkenoi	btw did anyone see email widget working? mine just shows no messages all the time	16:37
ptl	There could be some kind of antitrust law or something that forces these stupid middle management people on Nokia to be good open source citizens and follow the protocols.	16:38
Reffy	@Arkenoi I'll assume you're using Nokia Messaging?	16:38
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Arkenoi	Reffy, yep	16:38
alterego	Yes, why don't we have a positive friday. how can we fix this issue with community being drowned by users :)	16:38
Reffy	Yeah, it's a common bug. Nokia Messaging doesn't work at all with the widget	16:38
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Arkenoi	lol	16:38
Arkenoi	and that's why we waited for pr1.2 for months	16:39
Arkenoi	fixing bugs, my ass	16:39
Reffy	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10294	16:39
povbot	Bug 10294: Email desktop widget does not display mails from Nokia Messaging accounts	16:39
Appiah	Arkenoi: are you not happy with the PR1.2?	16:39
Arkenoi	there are damn several times more bugs than 1.1.1 had	16:39
alterego	I vote we organise a maemo jusers conference... then drop a nuke.	16:39
b-man	lol	16:39
Arkenoi	Appiah, is anyone?	16:39
alterego	otoh, they'll all be overclocking and probably reach some kind of critical mass :D	16:39
Reffy	I knew exactly what was coming with Pr1.2 so I wasn't disappointed	16:40
Appiah	Arkenoi yes	16:40
Termana	DocScrutinizer, every afternoon the channel is whiney	16:40
andre900	Reffy, what's with that bug?	16:40
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Arkenoi	show me that man ;-) i want to see	16:40
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marmoute	Termana: which afternoon ?	16:40
Termana	Its just the level of whinyness.	16:40
Appiah	Talked to my friend yesterday who got a n900 , I myself have not updated yet and I asked about the PR1.2 experince	16:40
Stskeeps	achipa: i am looking forward to meego providing their intentions of a real openly developed system. it will take time and not happen overnight, but a lot of areas are popping out now.	16:40
b-man	woooh! ny virtual machine's network connection is functional again	16:40
b-man	*my	16:40
Reffy	@Andre900	16:40
Reffy	Dammit	16:40
Reffy	Ummm what you mean?	16:41
DocScrutinizer	marmoute: Termana: afternoon somewhere on Sol3	16:41
Termana	marmoute, normally when someone uses the word 'all'	16:41
andre900	Context for the bug URL that you posted here.	16:41
alterego	I was suprised how much harmatten is in gitorios ...	16:41
Termana	marmoute, they mean, all	16:41
b-man	*gitorious ;)	16:42
Reffy	Someone asked why they couldn't see their mails in the email widget so I posted the relevant bug url. I assumed he'd vote for it or something.	16:42
achipa	Stskeeps: hey, I'm not apriori rejecting anything, and am pretty sure that most of the issues stem from plain "dontcare" to "toobusydoingsomethingmoreimportant", not some super-evil conspiracy, but time is precious, we're already way way behind in the game	16:42
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marmoute	Termana: but what kind of all ? all afternoon of the week or of the day ?	16:42
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andre900	Reffy, oops, missed that when reading here. Okay, sorry :)	16:43
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Termana	marmoute, we'll the sentence was specifically, every afternoon of the week. But all day every day would be accurate as well	16:43
Termana	achipa, The Game	16:44
Termana	You already lost it	16:44
marmoute	:-)	16:44
alterego	hah	16:44
achipa	Lost it ? Did I ever have it ? I'm a linux geek ferrichsake ! :D	16:44
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Stskeeps	achipa: my understanding is that people are happy to finally work in the open. some habit die hard though, so we need a compelling infrastructure for people not to fall back on internal tools.	16:45
alterego	omfg, has it got that bad that now "the game" is here ...	16:45
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Khertan	Hum ... i ve a question ... a bit out of topic ... but what soft did you use for your Personnal backups ? i ve try some ... but i found them not stable enought ... i m trying to backup to a simple nas which support only ftp/smb	16:46
alterego	Stskeeps: I agree completely, I'm sure the meego devices dept at Nokia are extremely happy about it.	16:46
Termana	alterego, sorry, going back to 4chan now :P lol	16:46
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melmoth	Khertan: rsync & ssh	16:46
alterego	in fact reading blogs and stuff they're the most up beat out of everyone and it does truely seem geniune.	16:46
Khertan	melmoth, hum ... this is the problem ... no scp on the nas	16:47
Khertan	no rsync daemon too	16:47
Stskeeps	alterego: the open mindset does exist but it is a bit like 'is it okay to come out of the cave now?' mentality	16:47
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melmoth	mount your backup directory as a samba share ?	16:47
Stskeeps	QA discussions in public between nokians, intelians, others, for instance	16:47
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marmoute	alterego: the Game are everywhere everybody play it.	16:48
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Khertan	melmoth ... hum ... why i didn't think about something like that ... pfff	16:48
achipa	Stskeeps: yeah, that's interesting. But also scary for outsiders, especially if you're used to being presented a finished piece of software	16:48
Khertan	melmoth, thx :)	16:48
Termana	GOOGLIANS	16:48
Termana	sorry had to chuck that in there	16:48
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alterego	I'm hoping to be pleasantly supprised with the openness of the next device from Nokia. but I'm not holding my breathe. we know that there are going to be 4 UX's 2 of which are mobile. I don't see Nokia opening too much that aspect of Harmattan.	16:50
alterego	and we've seen the tablet UX, looks like it has a lot of apps in by default. what will users expect to see in the mobile UX?	16:50
achipa	Stskeeps: speaking of which, I still don't see any focus on educating the PUBLIC (=non-core-dev power users) what open development is and how it works, and IMHO that's pretty essential otherwise people will just treat it as patchwork	16:51
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Termana	alterego, when your talking about Nokia opening the Harmattan UX are you specifically talking about the UI or the apps on top as well?	16:51
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alterego	And vendors, well, I can really see them screwing this.	16:51
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achipa	alterego: isn't it 5 UX-es ?	16:52
alterego	Termana: a mixture really, I've noticed there is a lot of Harmattan open, but the apps are part of the UX and should be open?	16:52
alterego	achipa: probably :)	16:52
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alterego	Termana: just looking at the tablet UX demo, the guy said they were core UX apps. what will lHarmattan have?	16:53
Stskeeps	achipa: a very good question. how do you tell users how open developers work?	16:53
alterego	How many maemo 5 apps are open? X Terminal?	16:53
Khertan	alterego, modest	16:53
SpeedEvil	alterego: modest	16:53
Termana	alterego, I think you'll find the UI itself is open. They will be using the Handset UX's UI AFAIK. But there will probably be things in the Harmattan UX not included in the Handset UX	16:53
Termana	eg. Ovi Store	16:54
SpeedEvil	alterego: most of hildon	16:54
alterego	Yeah, modest too.	16:54
Myrtti	my, aren't we a positive lot	16:54
alterego	SpeedEvil: I mean apps, core apps.	16:54
SpeedEvil	ah	16:54
Stskeeps	achipa: a very good question. how do you tell users how open development works?	16:54
SpeedEvil	well - modest	16:54
zaheerm-lp	hildon application manager	16:54
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SpeedEvil	Stskeeps: Think of it as applications coded by a herd of unpaid cats.	16:54
achipa	Stskeeps: I'm a coder-tinkener, it's hard to make myself think as a general user, but I DO see that there is a difference-in-perception issue, stemming from users not familiar with the process :(	16:55
ptl	damn. pulseaudio now frequently gets caught in a high-CPU cycle, I have to kill it otherwise it keeps using 1/3 of CPU time when idle.	16:55
RST38h	http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/06/main-wikileaks-source-outed/57753/	16:55
* RST38h laughs satanically		16:55
alterego	SpeedEvil: more like monkeys :P	16:55
Stskeeps	achipa: talk.maemo.org is a example of that	16:55
Termana	Stskeeps, I didn't realise you have a parrot	16:55
achipa	Stskeeps: just like doctors. You want to hear 'my problem is this, do that and all will be well'. You don't want to hear half a dozen doctors disagreeing and talking about compromise	16:55
Stskeeps	Termana: what?	16:55
Stskeeps	:P	16:55
alterego	And GAN900 who's just the silverback of the community :P	16:56
achipa	(even though technically that is what is and should be happening)	16:56
Termana	Stskeeps, nothing :P you just repeated what you said twice	16:56
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* Mece is always enthusiastic about all things maemo and meego. He approaches problems with a childlike naivity and sense of wonder.		16:56
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Stskeeps	Termana: it's boiling hot here	16:56
Termana	Stskeeps, achipa - anyway, is it really important for end-users to know how the development works? Because I'm not sure they care too much	16:56
achipa	Termana: the 'trouble' is they ARE more exposed to it	16:57
RST38h	end-users only need to know when to fuck off, true	16:57
achipa	as said, it's like hearing a bunch of doctors discussing course of action - it's scary (but normal)	16:57
Aranel	initctl: mce respawning too fast, stopped wha..?	16:58
jo-erlend	hehe... i just had to test this. i read an article about iphone4, that it could run 4 apps at the same time. im currently running 32 on n900 and its still fast!	16:58
alterego	I think a lot of things would be solved if thread creators could admin their own threads :)	16:58
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Termana	RST38h, well thats not really what I meant :P but ok	16:58
jacekowski	alterego: no	16:58
achipa	Termana: plus, it can even be detrimental - see for example the USB host thread, people could not keep on topic even if their life depended on it	16:59
jacekowski	alterego: it will finish in anarchy	16:59
alterego	We'd just have a thread per user and only the interesting ones would be worth reading.	16:59
alterego	jacekowski: that's kind of close now right? :P	16:59
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SpeedEvil	achipa: Especially with the problem that in some cases, unskilled people literally can't help.	16:59
jacekowski	alterego: it's not even as half as close to what would happen	16:59
SpeedEvil	achipa: Basically - if you can't at least read datasheets, or kernel code - you're not helping in that thread.	17:00
jacekowski	s/read/understand/	17:00
SpeedEvil	(other than thanks, perhaps, but even then - you don't know who to thank)	17:00
Stskeeps	achipa: anyway.. it all bends down to, if you can contribute, you can gain merit, if you have merit, you can influence decisions in the field you're contributing in	17:00
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Stskeeps	achipa: if your team lead is not open to sanity, that's where the discussions really start and you can move disputes to TSG	17:01
Stskeeps	:P	17:01
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achipa	SpeedEvil: that's what I'm saying about general user education - they're simply used to jumping in discussiong in forums, and have no understanding of what 'technical discussion' means - that's why there has to be some level of platform education	17:01
alterego	I think the basic theme is obviously impatience.	17:01
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alterego	maybe auto ban people that use the word "when" :P	17:02
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Stskeeps	achipa: but if you're wondering how big this thing is.. we're having people talking in a public irc channel about BME and battery charging.	17:02
alterego	actually "when will" would be more succinct.	17:02
Stskeeps	achipa: nokians and potential future team members exchanging ideas	17:03
Stskeeps	now imagine that up on a bigger scale	17:03
RST38h	Stskeeps: even the current scale took years to achieve and is quickly dissolving	17:03
Stskeeps	RST38h: i believe all our trouble exists from a link to talk.maemo.org on maemo.nokia.com :P	17:03
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RST38h	Stskeeps: With meego.com being a separate community frm maemo.org, there will not be continuity between these communities	17:04
Stskeeps	RST38h: am i a cynic for being happy about the community being reset?	17:04
alterego	RST38h: agreed, but the cool kids willl stay here :P	17:04
achipa	Stskeeps: Yeah, that's all OK, but the problem is as follows - to reach the merit level, you have to be seriously invested in a particular area. So ? Well, this precludes people who have a different (but strong !) tech background	17:04
RST38h	Stskeeps: Mmm, no, it does make sense to a certain degree	17:04
RST38h	Stskeeps: But I believe the drawbacks will overweight the advantages	17:04
achipa	Stskeeps: take for example the Qt vs GTK issue, or the RPM vs DEB angle, it is very difficult to contribute as those who know equally well the merits and drawbacks of both are very few	17:05
Stskeeps	achipa: aren't you typically invested already and has experience?	17:05
Stskeeps	achipa: that's up in architecture which is a place i wouldn't wish upon anyone :P	17:05
alterego	I see my mission as integrating services on the devices. Enhancing inbuilt UX, that's why I did the mafw telepathy status updater. stupid little app, but it's kind of what I'm interested in. Just looking at where to go next.	17:06
Stskeeps	achipa: the issue isn't made easier by that a large number of community members have been sucked into nokia over time :)	17:06
RST38h	Stskeeps: Between having to deal with raving teenagers and not having the current developers community we have with maemo.org, I would take the first	17:06
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alterego	heh	17:06
RST38h	Stskeeps: Besides, it would mean I could go there every weekend and scalp a few	17:06
RST38h	Stskeeps: Out of sheer sadistic fun	17:07
achipa	Stskeeps: what I'm saying is that to be able to change something, you have to have had contributed to it a great deal, which can get counterintuitive :) It's a bit like saying that for a party to lose power they have to agree with it :)	17:07
Termana	Maybe its just me, but relatively I think the RPM vs DEB debate is just a bunch people having a pissing match. Who really cares, I'm sure either one would be able to do the job its suppose to do.	17:07
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achipa	Termana: the bottom line is it doesn't touch users, but they DO see it, so it's get all FUDdy	17:08
RST38h	achipa: Maybe you should return to square #1: You cannot change anything in Maemo, no matter what kind of merit you have earned	17:08
Stskeeps	achipa: depending on area of contribution. hopefully there'll be a large number of teams so you can contribute in an area and work your way up	17:08
RST38h	achipa: In fact, you cannot change much in Maemo even if you are working for Maemo Devices as a developer	17:08
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alterego	Termana: I have the same stance there, I might personally prefer deb, but that preference comes from an inherent trust of debian systems, that are my preference in general Linux terms ...	17:08
Myrtti	people need better hobbies	17:09
Stskeeps	i mean, even though i have the failed Mer project on my back, that experience is getting widely accepted as knowing something about mobile linux and going about things :)	17:09
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alterego	at least it's not gentoo .... :D	17:09
Stskeeps	and contributions speaking for themselves	17:09
RST38h	achipa: The decisions are often done by people who have "proper" corporate standing but have no expertise to make the decisions	17:09
alterego	Stskeeps: Mer would have been awesome :(	17:09
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RST38h	Myrtti: knitting?	17:10
Stskeeps	alterego: MeeGo's going to be awesome-r	17:10
alterego	Stskeeps: yes, it seems so :)	17:10
Myrtti	RST38h: cooking or gardening are options too	17:10
Termana	Thats right because they added a -r	17:10
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Termana	:P	17:10
DocScrutinizer	Myrtti: sitting here watching IRC, I tend to agree with you, at least for my case	17:10
RST38h	Myrtti: hunting!	17:10
alterego	especially with the _corporate_ support against antitrust bs.	17:10
Stskeeps	at least my general impression of the current architects is people that have a boatload of merit :P	17:11
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Stskeeps	and i can understand qt vs gtk and rpm vs deb	17:11
achipa	Myrtti: http://img40.imagefra.me/img/img40/6/6/5/yagodinac/f_nsvsfm_3df9ce5.jpg	17:11
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* RST38h sighs at Stskeeps' general impression		17:11
Stskeeps	(and no, i'm not just a fanboy, i really do criticise stuf.)	17:11
achipa	Myrtti: when fishing is not an option, of course	17:11
Myrtti	indeed	17:11
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* DocScrutinizer ponders to charge up that 1000uF/400V capacitor :-P		17:11
DocScrutinizer	always has been fun	17:12
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alterego	Stskeeps: I used to prefer Gtk, in someways I still do, but Qt is rapidly becoming better in my eye, all my maemo/meego is Qt from now on. It does the whole XP thing much better than Gtk...	17:12
achipa	DocScrutinizer: used to call it "jumpy", eh ?	17:12
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DocScrutinizer	with some tin foil it's really exciting	17:13
DocScrutinizer	and LOUD	17:13
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LuciusMare	Hello, how to reset the password for "lock screen"?	17:14
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DocScrutinizer	elementary physics	17:14
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DocScrutinizer	LuciusMare: too bad, you need to visit nokia store afaik	17:14
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alterego	LuciusMare: type in the old one, then type in the new one and confirm? :P	17:15
LuciusMare	DocScrutinizer: uh? It can't be simly reflashed?	17:15
DocScrutinizer	afaik not	17:16
LuciusMare	aw	17:16
achipa	which reminds me... haven't tried the nightshot mode for astrophotography, there's something less polarizing for tonight's activities :)	17:16
LuciusMare	Any alternatives how to lock screen?	17:16
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DocScrutinizer	LuciusMare: err what?	17:16
LuciusMare	DocScrutinizer: other app to lock screen	17:17
RST38h	achipa: You can see stars from where you are?	17:17
LuciusMare	maybe requesting the password on startup	17:17
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DocScrutinizer	LuciusMare: sorry I don't get your problem	17:17
achipa	RST38h: not NOW, but _tonight_ I certainly will be able to :)	17:17
DocScrutinizer	LuciusMare: thought you locked your device and forgot the password	17:18
achipa	RST38h: I'm not in Finland currently so I actually get a few hours of actual cloud-free nighttime even in June :)	17:19
RST38h	achipa: lucky	17:19
LuciusMare	I didn't lock it, I just set the password and forgot it -_-	17:19
DocScrutinizer	aaah, so make sure you got ssh configured	17:20
LuciusMare	heh	17:20
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MohammadAG51	qwerty12 made an app to change it - I think	17:20
DocScrutinizer	I read something about it long ago. maybe it's something about http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20465	17:21
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crashanddie	there's one thing that always bothered me with wardriving and monitoring networks	17:24
crashanddie	there's no tool to "see" what other people are browsing	17:24
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LuciusMare	:o	17:25
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crashanddie	I'm obviously not interested in https and shit	17:25
SpeedEvil	crashanddie: yes there is	17:25
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crashanddie	SpeedEvil: so it displays the web pages that are coming back?	17:25
DocScrutinizer	LuciusMare: maybe this might help: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/DBUS#dbus-send-unlock - at least to find more info	17:25
SpeedEvil	http://tcpick.sourceforge.net/	17:26
SpeedEvil	crashanddie:	17:26
SpeedEvil	Well - nearly.	17:26
crashanddie	only text-based	17:26
crashanddie	I want graphical, see the web page the guy is browsing	17:26
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SpeedEvil	crashanddie: You'd need a few dozen lines of scripting, in order to push it into a directory structure compatible with wwwoffled - or some other webcache, with fake URLs	17:27
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SpeedEvil	crashanddie: and then a thing to point the browser at it	17:27
crashanddie	or write a browser that could use some cap file directly	17:27
SpeedEvil	that looks significantly harder.	17:27
crashanddie	filter the cap in wireshark to only track http streams	17:28
SpeedEvil	This thing already emits the files in - more or less - the right structure for wwwoffled	17:28
SpeedEvil	you just need to move them to teh right filename, and directory, and it will basically work.	17:28
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LuciusMare	I'll never browse on wifi again	17:29
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SpeedEvil	WPA is really hard to sniff.	17:29
SpeedEvil	WEP quite easy	17:29
LuciusMare	I'll never browse on unprotected wifis again	17:30
SpeedEvil	I'm currently taking part in a study, which involves tracking all my web browsing on the n900.	17:31
DocScrutinizer	I don't care	17:31
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SpeedEvil	I just don't do anything illegal on the n900, so it's not a major concern.	17:31
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: they really need to pay you better for that :-P	17:31
SpeedEvil	yeah - well - it pays for the internets connection to the n900.	17:32
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LuciusMare	SpeedEvil: "I've you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear."? :P	17:33
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DocScrutinizer	lol	17:33
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crashanddie	"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." --Google CEO Eric Schmidt	17:34
SpeedEvil	For various reasons - I don't do anything questionable on the n900.	17:34
SpeedEvil	So - if the browsing history were made public, it doesn't bother me.	17:35
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Termana	/nick FBI	17:35
Termana	SpeedEvil, yes, but we're interested in what questionable things you are doing on other devices/computers.	17:35
LuciusMare	Meh, so the solution: don't go out?	17:35
Termana	:P	17:35
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Tachikoma	isn't it possible to just browse without creating a history?	17:37
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SpeedEvil	No.	17:38
SpeedEvil	You will always create some traces - even in only the farside logs.	17:38
SpeedEvil	The best you can do is to anonymise your origin, and merge it with others.	17:39
DocScrutinizer	I obviously should stop thinking, as not always I want everybody to know what I think	17:39
LuciusMare	Become anonymous(tm) .	17:39
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DocScrutinizer	but then, if Google CEO Eric Schmidt would eat his ofn dogfood, we never seen google	17:40
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* SpeedEvil is economising on food.		17:40
SpeedEvil	I haven't gone that far though.	17:40
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DocScrutinizer	there's quite a number of other stuff than just dogfood I'd like to shove down Eric's throat	17:41
LuciusMare	LOL	17:42
LuciusMare	Why so, DocScrutinizer?	17:42
Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: what are farsight logs?	17:43
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Tachikoma	farside logs	17:43
DocScrutinizer	because he sounds like all those other wankers, the one we suffered from 33-45, the founder of scientology, you name it	17:43
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SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: err - what?	17:43
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: oh	17:43
th3hate	Someone help: http://bit.ly/b5Mek4	17:43
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: For example - browse to 4chan.	17:43
sjgadsby	Tachikoma: Logs on the far side of the connection, on web server.	17:43
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: 4chan will have some record of inbound connections.	17:43
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: If you have a static IP, that points directly at you with no indirection.	17:44
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: If you're on NAT - it's a bit harder.	17:44
LuciusMare	Why did you choose 4chan as the example? O_o	17:44
Tachikoma	yeah, that stuff usually gets hidden via anonymizers like tor, doesn't it. I assumed already anonym browsing and was wondering if one could also shut up the browser ...	17:45
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: Well - somewhat	17:45
th3hate	i'm getting this error when i download wget: http://bit.ly/b5Mek4	17:45
th3hate	how to fox?	17:45
th3hate	fix*	17:45
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SpeedEvil	https://blog.torproject.org/blog/effs-panopticlick-and-torbutton - for example	17:46
Tachikoma	th3hate: apt-get update?	17:46
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Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: thanks, that looks interesting, will read tonight	17:46
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: Getting true anonymity is hard.	17:46
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: It basically means leaking no information - like history	17:46
Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: i know.	17:47
crashanddie	SpeedEvil: isn't the whole point of 4chan that they delete everything after a month or so? Inluding logs and everything?	17:47
SpeedEvil	http://whattheinternetknowsaboutyou.com/	17:47
SpeedEvil	crashanddie: Or do they?	17:47
SpeedEvil	crashanddie: Is moot really running 4chan, or is it the FBI.	17:48
Tachikoma	i always wondered what privoxy actually filters but never had time to take a deeper look. currently that is my "out-of-the-box" solution to feel a little bit better ;)	17:48
SpeedEvil	The above website indicates another problem - CSS history leaks	17:48
crashanddie	SpeedEvil: "Congratulations, we did not find anything in this category in your browser history."	17:48
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SpeedEvil	On the PC I use for my all my n900 browsing, it shows no xxx sites.	17:48
DocScrutinizer	get an anonymous prepaid SIM, change your IMEI, browse thru 3G only, from a place where you usually aren't doing this, and never use that phone for any other purpose, or to access any personalized website/service, like e.g email-POP3	17:48
Tachikoma	I know people that just use differen firefox profiles for different kind of websites ...	17:49
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: But do they use different resolutions, extensions, versions of firefox?	17:49
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: OSs, ...	17:49
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: or just run a windows VM, change the mac address in vmware, then connect to a public hotspot at mcdonalds or something	17:49
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: it'll be sometime before mac addresses will allow government agencies to track you, anyhoo	17:50
Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: of course not, this is just to feel better - like me using provoxy	17:50
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: hmm, equally valid, though you need to watch out for surveilance cams etc	17:50
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: large 1.2m dish pointing at a distant AP	17:50
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: same for n900 browsing :) CSI could probably read our screens in the reflection of the guy with sunglasses at starbucks	17:50
Tachikoma	wasn't that CTU ?;	17:51
Tachikoma	;)	17:51
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: no they can't	17:51
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: yes they can.	17:51
SpeedEvil	They have visual basic.	17:51
DocScrutinizer	ooh, sorry, yes they can - I got your statement wrong	17:51
* LuciusMare is getting paranoid		17:52
DocScrutinizer	for CRT you can read out the image content from indirect light	17:52
Tachikoma	currently i browse from n900 only through openvpn -> home. Not for privacy but to avoid the forced redirects to the telephone companies proxies that scale down all pictures and screw with content in other ways ....	17:52
th3hate	Tachikoma: apt-get update didn't fix it	17:53
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DocScrutinizer	reflection of the image in a sunglasses is a much simpler matter though	17:53
Tachikoma	th3hate: mh, usually i get this message when the local package database points to some package on the seerver that is not there anymore, so it fixed it for me usually/	17:54
SpeedEvil	http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/09/199242	17:54
DocScrutinizer	th3hate: iirc wget is in tools repo	17:54
SpeedEvil	snooping on CRTs with indirect light	17:54
DocScrutinizer	tzzz	17:54
LuciusMare	how is the history reading even possible?	17:54
th3hate	DocScrutinizer: how to iirc wget?	17:54
SpeedEvil	www.springerlink.com/index/b334pxu7x060213l.pdf	17:55
SpeedEvil	Snooping on LCDs with RF	17:55
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RST38h	Try snooping on LCDs with the tiny magnets implanted into your fingers	17:55
SpeedEvil	http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/acoustic-snooping-typed-information	17:55
SpeedEvil	snooping on keyboards with sound	17:56
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Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: i guess you already know this: http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/	17:56
SpeedEvil	yes	17:56
Tachikoma	you can play music on your radio using your CRT monitor as transmitter :)	17:56
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LuciusMare	no, really :<	17:56
SpeedEvil	Tachikoma: there are much cooler ones.	17:56
th3hate	How do i iirc a package @?	17:56
Tachikoma	SpeedEvil: i only tried that years ago - when CRTs were still popular	17:57
SpeedEvil	http://bellard.org/	17:57
SpeedEvil	_so_ much awesomeness	17:57
SpeedEvil	Specifically - http://bellard.org/dvbt/	17:57
SpeedEvil	broadcast digital video signal with CRT	17:57
Tachikoma	just read it, crazy :)	17:57
DocScrutinizer	th3hate: enable all repositories, incl -devel and -tools, then redo apt-get update and aptg-get install wget	17:58
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DocScrutinizer	then disable all the repos again that you just had enabled!!	17:58
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DocScrutinizer	and do a apt-get update agin	17:59
MohammadAG51	wget is in -devel, qole needs it for easy-deb-chroot	17:59
th3hate	DocScrutinizer: i know i did that but im still getting the error	18:00
th3hate	maybe wget is really missing?	18:00
Tachikoma	then an apt-get update would still solve it and you get "no such package" or a similar message	18:00
MohammadAG51	0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 reinstalled, 0 to remove and 5 not upgraded.	18:00
MohammadAG51	nope	18:00
crashanddie	Tachikoma: or in bones, from old (printed) emails, they found the IP address of the guy (incidentaly in the 192.168 range), and they were able to immediately view his screen, and then his webcam.	18:00
DocScrutinizer	th3hate: something in your install is borked	18:01
MohammadAG51	it's in extras too	18:01
MohammadAG51	Get:1 http://repository.maemo.org fremantle-1.2/free wget 1.10.2-2osso3 [620kB]	18:01
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* Tachikoma just creates his first gitorious repository :)		18:01
Tachikoma	crashanddie: bones?	18:02
th3hate	can i download it from app manager directly?	18:02
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crashanddie	Tachikoma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bones_(TV_series)	18:03
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Tachikoma	crashanddie: ah - now it makes sense :) pseudo scientific TV series and reality - two different things :)	18:04
MohammadAG51	lol	18:04
MohammadAG51	it's a cool show though	18:04
crashanddie	good characters, I love TJ Thyne	18:04
Tachikoma	yeah, i actually know it, just didn't get it immediatly	18:04
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: (view screen/webcam) isn't that exactly how windows works, though?	18:05
crashanddie	superb shortfilm with tj thyne: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao	18:06
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xDaReaperx	Hi	18:06
xDaReaperx	is anyone there in need serious help	18:07
xDaReaperx	my N900 shows the logo and vibrates but dosent start	18:07
xDaReaperx	it keeps showing the Nokia logo and vibrates	18:07
DocScrutinizer	ouch	18:07
MohammadAG51	infobot, flashing	18:07
infobot	i heard flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	18:07
crashanddie	< xDaReaperx> is anyone there in need serious help <-- you? :D	18:07
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xDaReaperx	oh i have to flash ?	18:08
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xDaReaperx	will i loose data ?	18:08
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crashanddie	no, but you may lose data	18:08
DocScrutinizer	not much though	18:08
xDaReaperx	hmm what kind of data	18:09
xDaReaperx	images and stuff ?	18:09
crashanddie	no	18:09
DocScrutinizer	just enough to remind you about backup app	18:09
crashanddie	those are on the emmc	18:09
xDaReaperx	i have backuped	18:09
xDaReaperx	but how do i flash if the mobile wont start ?	18:09
crashanddie	xDaReaperx: usb and stuff?	18:09
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DocScrutinizer	which logo exactly does it show?	18:09
xDaReaperx	oh	18:09
xDaReaperx	nothing only the Nokia logo comes up and it vibrates	18:09
xDaReaperx	and goes blank and again comes up and vibrates	18:10
xDaReaperx	keeps doing the same thing	18:10
xDaReaperx	over and over	18:10
DocScrutinizer	hold 'u' button	18:10
DocScrutinizer	see if it stops looping	18:10
xDaReaperx	ok	18:10
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DocScrutinizer	then reflash rootfs	18:11
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xDaReaperx	holding U dosent stop it looping	18:12
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xDaReaperx	can you tell me which package to download plz : http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php	18:13
xDaReaperx	should i download the .exe ?	18:13
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DocScrutinizer	~tell xDaReaperx about flashing	18:16
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BCMM	what do i need to get started with compiling stuff for the n900?	18:16
BCMM	(e.g. just a C Hello World to start with)	18:16
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide	18:18
th3hate	south africa scored finally :P	18:18
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: thanks	18:19
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BCMM	also, any gentoo users here? is dev-embedded/scratchbox-devkit-maemo3 what i need, and is it up-to-date?	18:20
xDaReaperx	DocScrutinizer : Now i've kept my device for recharging , since it is said to charge the battery to the fullest , but when i charge the phones loops again	18:20
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DocScrutinizer	can you switch it down by holding the power button?	18:21
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xDaReaperx	no i cant	18:21
xDaReaperx	i have to remove the battery	18:21
DocScrutinizer	then I suggest you don't waste battery on useless effort to charge, but start flashing right away	18:22
xDaReaperx	okay fine	18:22
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DocScrutinizer	on a second thought, your problem might be caused by a broken battery as well	18:22
Escafane	\join #redditscooer	18:22
Escafane	\join #redditsoccer	18:23
DocScrutinizer	not yet	18:23
xDaReaperx	no my battery is new	18:23
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xDaReaperx	some app installed this Kernel power for users	18:23
xDaReaperx	and this caused the problem	18:23
DocScrutinizer	Escafane: windows, eh? ;-P	18:23
xDaReaperx	it was not able to restore the nokia kernel	18:23
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xDaReaperx	and told me to restart the phone and since then i got this problem	18:23
DocScrutinizer	ouch	18:23
Escafane	er yes. also wrong page	18:23
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: you need to reflash kernel and rootfs. both should work from flasher, by flashing COMBINED fiasco image	18:25
xDaReaperx	how do i do that ?	18:25
MohammadAG51	infobot, flashing	18:25
infobot	[flashing] http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	18:25
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: I strongly suggest you try using the linux flasher	18:25
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xDaReaperx	but i should have linux for that dont i ?	18:26
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: I did a better job on that, previously :-P	18:26
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: yes, would help	18:26
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, actually, read 10-100 lines before, I mentioned it the first time XP	18:26
DocScrutinizer	the windows flasher is constantly giving problems	18:26
xDaReaperx	oh man , why wont the windows flasher work ?	18:26
MohammadAG51	it would	18:27
xDaReaperx	damn , now i'm tensed	18:27
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: that's what I meant	18:27
DocScrutinizer	it didn't help the first time	18:27
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: occasionally win-flasher works as well	18:27
DocScrutinizer	just has more issues than linux	18:27
xDaReaperx	so now since i dont have linux i should use Windows	18:28
DocScrutinizer	so if you got the choice	18:28
xDaReaperx	:(	18:28
DocScrutinizer	yes	18:28
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xDaReaperx	what are the chances that something will go wrong ?	18:29
crashanddie	BCMM: install build-essential from the SDK repo and you're good to compile on-device.	18:29
crashanddie	xDaReaperx: 18.2%	18:29
DocScrutinizer	today's friday, so 18.4	18:30
BCMM	crashanddie: i have been told that enabling the sdk repo will make the n900 eat my pets	18:30
crashanddie	BCMM: ok, then no compilation for you.	18:30
BCMM	crashanddie: (or that there was some kind of issue to be careful of)	18:31
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crashanddie	just add the repo, apt-get build-essential, remove repo	18:31
DocScrutinizer	~hail t-tan for the userfriendly "power kernel" :-S	18:31
* infobot bows down to t-tan for the userfriendly "power kernel" :-S and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"		18:31
crashanddie	don't run updates, don't apt-get upgrade, you'll be fine.	18:31
th3hate	is petola widget working for anyone?	18:31
SpeedEvil	http://bellard.org/otcc/	18:32
* SpeedEvil bows down, and is not worthy.		18:32
SpeedEvil	Take that GCC!	18:32
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SpeedEvil	A compiler in 2048 bytes of c.	18:33
DocScrutinizer	though ""some app installed this Kernel power for users"" also sounds a little... err, searching for excuse	18:33
xDaReaperx	yeah thats the app that made my phone to die now	18:33
xDaReaperx	i'm really tensed , i dunno how safe flashing is	18:33
xDaReaperx	what if something goes wrong	18:33
BCMM	SpeedEvil: good god, that is terrible	18:33
DocScrutinizer	flashing is safe	18:33
BCMM	in a wonderful sort of way	18:34
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MohammadAG51	<xDaReaperx> what if something goes wrong	18:34
MohammadAG51	rereflash	18:34
DocScrutinizer	try harder - fail better :-P	18:34
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xDaReaperx	omg this .bin file is 179 MB	18:36
xDaReaperx	i have to download that too ?	18:36
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: fsckng awsome	18:37
DocScrutinizer	YES	18:38
* achipa sees that maemo.org/news is still dead. Is it just hiding or is it going to play dead all weekend ?		18:38
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Tachikoma	yikes	18:39
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: feel happy you've not killed your phone by installing random garbage without reading the instructions	18:39
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xDaReaperx	oh	18:40
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Tachikoma	i just saw that i received a mail from nokia on 3.6.2010 telling me that there is ovi store 1.6 now and that it's awsome and explain tomns of features ... Why do they send me that - i should be marekd as n900 owner in their database ...	18:40
xDaReaperx	so all i need is the Nokia USB cable , The Maemo 3.5 flasher software and the .bin file , to reflash	18:41
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DocScrutinizer	yes	18:41
* DocScrutinizer sighs		18:41
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: and a lot more of patience and coolness as the real dl load comes after you've flashed the rootfs, on restoring your backup	18:42
xDaReaperx	oh so there's more to download later ? oh man	18:42
xDaReaperx	on the documentation it says : Make sure that the device battery is fully charged before doing any sort of flashing operation because flashing fails if the battery runs out of power during the image flashing operation, and the device may not be able to charge an empty battery after a failure in flashing.	18:43
xDaReaperx	but i cant charge as i told u it keeps looping	18:43
Tachikoma	yes, that is a big issue	18:43
DocScrutinizer	you need to reinstall all the friggin apps you had. and take care you don't install power kernel during that restore session :-P	18:43
xDaReaperx	oh i dont care of the apps	18:43
xDaReaperx	i need the mobile running back , i'm so tensed	18:43
Tachikoma	i actually bough an external battery charger for mobile phone batteries to never face the battery dead/flash scenario	18:44
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: I told ya [2010-06-11 17:22:05] <DocScrutinizer> then I suggest you don't waste battery on useless effort to charge, but start flashing right away	18:44
Tachikoma	xDaReaperx: if you know anothe n900 owner, charge your batteryu full in his n900 before flashing	18:45
xDaReaperx	well i dont	18:45
Tachikoma	and it does not have to be 100% full, it must just not become empty WHILE flashing	18:45
xDaReaperx	no its not empty its 43 %	18:45
xDaReaperx	or so	18:45
xDaReaperx	i think	18:45
DocScrutinizer	and gets less while you're arguing here	18:46
Tachikoma	xDaReaperx: that should be enough, flashing takes not longer than 5 minutes from my experience	18:46
xDaReaperx	oh thank God	18:46
DocScrutinizer	actually it takes ~30s	18:46
Tachikoma	xDaReaperx: but TAKE OUT THE BATTERY NOW. And only put it back in the moment you will flash	18:46
xDaReaperx	yeah i did that ^	18:46
Tachikoma	DocScrutinizer: yeah, I was flashing emmc as well	18:46
Tachikoma	another way to get a full battery is to go to a nokia shop	18:47
Tachikoma	just in case	18:47
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DocScrutinizer	yaaaaawwn	18:47
Tachikoma	http://www.123handydiscount.de/2-3-12-0-0-1080/nokia-batterycharger-dt-14-handy-bestellen.html?ref=true	18:47
Tachikoma	this is my "backup :)	18:47
Tachikoma	i got it for 7 euro	18:48
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Tachikoma	for n800 actually, had to saw of one end so n800 battery di fix, but charged the battery as expected	18:48
xDaReaperx	DocScrutinizer : what kind of menu will be there when i run the flasher ?	18:48
DocScrutinizer	none	18:48
xDaReaperx	you told me about some Fiasco img or something	18:48
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DocScrutinizer	~tell xDaReaperx about flashing	18:49
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DocScrutinizer	~tell xDaReaperx "read that!"	18:49
xDaReaperx	okay	18:49
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xDaReaperx	so once the mobile starts flashing i can plug the charger right	18:53
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xDaReaperx	says in the documentation : You can plug the device back into power once it starts flashing).	18:54
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* GAN900 is evil.		18:59
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SpeedEvil	http://images.4chan.org/b/src/1276271582184.jpg	19:10
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Ian--	hi in the virtual keyboard since pr1.2 has the backspace button been removed?	19:17
jacekowski	i never had any problems with virtual keyboard	19:17
jacekowski	maybe because i don't use it	19:18
SpeedEvil	backspace is under ?	19:19
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trumee	guys, i used tcpdump to create a dump of the network for maemo sip bug. How do i extract just the sip/rtp stream for bugzilla. i want to remove all the sensitive info before uploading it to bugzilla	19:24
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SpeedEvil	trumee: I recommend tcpick perhaps	19:25
trumee	how can i extract using wireshark	19:25
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trumee	SpeedEvil: ok, i will install tcpick then	19:25
SpeedEvil	http://tcpick.sourceforge.net/	19:25
SpeedEvil	dunno	19:25
SpeedEvil	I've used tcpick for that in the past, and it's worked well	19:25
SpeedEvil	I'm unsure about tools that will parse the tcpdump capture	19:26
DocScrutinizer	wireshark has arbitrary filtering, and afaik a convenient way to print out and/or save	19:26
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DocScrutinizer	nobody will care about a pcap file on tracker anyway, I guess	19:27
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svanheulen	Hello!	19:27
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DocScrutinizer	and you open pcap simply in wireshark I guess	19:28
trumee	DocScrutinizer: i cant take a chance of that. How can i extract sip/rtp streams for uploading to bugzilla?	19:28
trumee	SpeedEvil: unfortunately i dont have tcpick on my gentoo system	19:28
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trumee	DocScrutinizer: yes, i can open it but what do i save from wireshark:	19:28
DocScrutinizer	the info you want to share on your track ticket. Nobody will do that filtering and data dissect for you	19:29
LiraNuna	what the hell @ chromium?	19:29
LiraNuna	are the Maemo repositories became Apple's ass store?	19:29
LiraNuna	s/are/did/	19:30
infobot	LiraNuna meant: did the Maemo repositories became Apple's ass store?	19:30
SpeedEvil	LiraNuna: REgrettably lawyers do not think like normal people.	19:30
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MohammadAG51	LiraNuna, not really, 'we' just don't want trouble	19:30
SpeedEvil	And - given the opinion of nokias lawyers that it should come down - and the domains hosting - it was pretty obvious what'd happen	19:30
MohammadAG51	feel free to create your own repo and host it	19:30
svanheulen	yeah i was confused about the chromium thing too... i thought it used BSD license?	19:31
SpeedEvil	svanheulen: It's a patent issue	19:31
microlith	svanheulen: software licenses don't get you around software patents	19:31
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MohammadAG51	some IL company sued google	19:31
SpeedEvil	svanheulen: A company claims it infringes a patent.	19:31
SpeedEvil	svanheulen: The patented - allegedly - stuff got pulled - and it reuploaded.	19:31
svanheulen	oh god, software patents, my fav ...	19:31
SpeedEvil	But the lawyers were still unhappy taking the risk	19:31
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MohammadAG51	i'm not really sure how patens are infringed in open source SW	19:32
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microlith	MohammadAG51: everything does, probably	19:32
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG51: The same way they are in regular SW.	19:32
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MohammadAG51	SpeedEvil, but it's open source	19:32
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SpeedEvil	MohammadAG51: Because it's open-source doesn't mean it cannot infringe patents.	19:33
svanheulen	MohammadAG51: yeah, but they're still taking away business of the patent hold i guess	19:33
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svanheulen	*holder	19:34
SpeedEvil	If open source infringes patents - there may be no direct financial remedy against the author - but the patent holder can still insist it's removed.	19:34
SpeedEvil	And in some countries this has legal force.	19:34
microlith	iirc, there's a patent less than 10 years old that covers linked lists	19:34
LiraNuna	aren't software patents cute	19:35
LiraNuna	I know one that covers how to do a fast 'abs' in 3 instructions	19:35
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svanheulen	LiraNuna: if by 'cute' you mean retarded, yes	19:36
SpeedEvil	My pet hate.	19:36
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SpeedEvil	The kernel had - back in 2.0.20 times or so - a (out-of-tree) module - 'mergemem'	19:36
LiraNuna	svanheulen, sarcasm	19:37
SpeedEvil	This hashed all memory, and found pages with identical hashes, and merged them so that they were using the same page of RAM - protected them - so they would get split again on write.	19:37
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SpeedEvil	Fast forward to ~2006 or so, and vmware gets a patent on exactly this.	19:37
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microlith	SpeedEvil: err, isn't that exactly what KSM does?	19:37
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SpeedEvil	In ~2008 - KSM explicitly avoided this obvious technique in order to do the same thing.	19:38
SpeedEvil	sort-of, not quite.	19:38
microlith	ahh	19:38
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SpeedEvil	mergemem was designed to do _all_ memory.	19:38
SpeedEvil	Also, I note the n900 has a hashing engine in the CPU.	19:38
svanheulen	SpeedEvil: to be fair, you can't expect the people approving patents to know everthing that ever existed	19:39
SpeedEvil	Sure.	19:39
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LiraNuna	hence why patents are retarded	19:39
SpeedEvil	But 'hey - look at this code from 2002' should be a simple straight-forward free excersize to get the patent cancelled.	19:40
SpeedEvil	Not the risk of expensive court action that may drag on for years.	19:40
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zaheerm-lp	what is funny is that meego distributes chromium	19:40
LiraNuna	the patent council is made of retards - you really expects them to know better?	19:41
svanheulen	Well yeah, I don't see why they can't just allow people to sumbit prior art to get patent invalidated before they cause court cases	19:41
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microlith	zaheerm-lp: I suppose Intel is playing 800lb gorilla	19:41
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LiraNuna	http://lolpics.se/pics/3982.jpg	19:46
LiraNuna	er	19:46
LiraNuna	wrong window	19:46
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MohammadAG51	alterego, you could add a terminal option to show what song your listening to	19:57
MohammadAG51	kinda like a backend	19:57
MohammadAG51	it would export the same %s and %t	19:57
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kwtm	Hi! Need advice: what is MeeGo, and if I have Maemo5 on my new N900, will I be able to use it? Sounds like the brand new Maemo5 is already obsolete.	19:58
kwtm	I just bought my N900, can still return it for refund if I should wait a month or two before getting a MeeGo tablet/phone.	19:59
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Stskeeps	noone knows when the first meego device is coming out and your n900 isn't breaking of that reason :P	19:59
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RST38h	actually, 4Q2010 for Harmattan device	20:00
RST38h	which is marketed as a meego	20:00
Robot101	despite obviously not being... :P	20:01
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kwtm	Stskeeps: Would it be reasonable to expect that I can load MeeGo onto my N900?	20:02
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microlith	kwtm: entirely	20:02
MohammadAG51	heh, you're asking the guy who's porting it :P	20:02
kwtm	I don't want to have a shorter useful life for my tabletphone software because I've come in at the end of Maemo, as opposed to (say) someone with a N810 who has had a longer time to enjoy/use Maemo before it became obsolete.	20:02
microlith	you can run it now (sans gui	20:02
RST38h	kwtm: Nokia will not officially support your meego installation though	20:02
Stskeeps	what RST38h said.. you can't call nokia care about it and it may possibly not come with shiny nokia bits	20:03
MohammadAG51	ovi? :)	20:03
RST38h	i.e. it will not have GSM, GPS, and power saving	20:03
Stskeeps	errmm.	20:03
Stskeeps	:P	20:03
Stskeeps	that's not true	20:03
MohammadAG51	RST38h, err...	20:04
Stskeeps	phone stack is getting opened, gps we haven't touched yet	20:04
Stskeeps	power saving is just bullshit to say we're not getting :P	20:04
kwtm	Thank you, all. Final question: has Nokia announced any specific device which will run MeeGo? (I know no one has announced when it will come out.) If it's specific, may be worthwhile waiting; else I'll keep my N900. Have to refund within 4 days else no refund.	20:04
xDaReaperx	ugh the .bin file for flashing the phone is taking lots of time to download	20:04
Stskeeps	kwtm: no, no announcements.	20:04
xDaReaperx	i still dont understand which app made my phone to not boot any more	20:04
MohammadAG51	knowing nokia, if they announce it tomorrow, expect it next december	20:04
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kwtm	Thanks. Will probably keep my N900, keep observing MeeGo. (I bought a Sharp Zaurus, too, just before it went obsolete --lack of software ecosystem.)	20:05
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: you installed power kernel, no?	20:05
xDaReaperx	no some app installed it for me	20:06
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: and then you fsckd it up by not following the insructions how to deinstall it	20:06
xDaReaperx	it shows the deinstall power kernel , i tried to but it said error on reinstalling nokia kernal	20:06
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: there is no app that installs power kernel	20:06
Stskeeps	kwtm: long story short. Nokia is funding a rather big team to maintain MeeGo (not Harmattan) on N900. N900 is the reference device for ARM platforms in MeeGo and hence all packages in MeeGo should build against this (with some exceptions).	20:06
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, I think kismet does	20:06
xDaReaperx	hmm but i dont remember intalling that power kernel app	20:06
MohammadAG51	w/e that is	20:07
xDaReaperx	ya i installed kismet	20:07
Stskeeps	kwtm: nokia also provides the ability for some closed source components to be added, either in a premade image or downloadable with a n900 IMEI	20:07
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DocScrutinizer	omfg	20:07
MohammadAG51	xDaReaperx, reflash the kernel	20:07
kwtm	Stskeeps: Ah, I see. So there is substantial support from Nokia for N900 MeeGo, just not officially supporting MY installation of MeeGo so I can't go sue them or something.	20:07
xDaReaperx	yeah i'm going to do it now , i'm still downloading the .bin file	20:07
w00t_	GAN900: I think that it's not entirely correct to say they do everything possible to fail, though	20:07
xDaReaperx	slow connection here	20:07
Stskeeps	kwtm: bingo.	20:07
DocScrutinizer	can we please nuke kismet then?	20:07
w00t_	GAN900: I mean, if that was true, then they'd not have bothered investing effort into taking the N900 further at all	20:07
Stskeeps	kwtm: the key term is productization.	20:08
MohammadAG51	infobot, nuke kismet	20:08
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kwtm	Sounds like I picked the right phone to buy, then. My colleagues were just talking the other day about how the iPhone 4 will be So Much Better when it comes out, and I asked, "Does it have multitasking yet?"	20:08
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* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at kismet ... B☢☢M!		20:08
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Stskeeps	kwtm: meego.com to read more about meego.	20:08
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CosmoHill	kwtm: i still think the iphone is the phone of tomorrow today	20:09
CosmoHill	no wait	20:09
Stskeeps	when did CosmoHill get in here?	20:09
CosmoHill	the phone of yesterday today	20:09
Stskeeps	:P	20:09
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: fail, the maintainer wasn't near enough to ground zero	20:09
GAN900	w00t_, yeah, hyperbole.	20:10
CosmoHill	Stskeeps: 2 mins ago, I shuck in behind w00t_	20:10
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GAN900	w00t_, that was just cathartic. :P	20:10
* MohammadAG51 waits for the maintainer to show up @ ground 0		20:10
kwtm	CosmoHill: Different people have different needs. I feel uneasy with the locked-down nature of the iPhone (starting with "You must use AT&T as your provider!").	20:10
xDaReaperx	so that app is kind of like a malware ?	20:10
MohammadAG51	not really	20:10
CosmoHill	kwtm: in the UK you have a choice of 3 or 4	20:10
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, just hates t-tan	20:11
MohammadAG51	:P	20:11
xDaReaperx	oh	20:11
MohammadAG51	lol jk xP	20:11
Stskeeps	i think the key term about the cutting off official upgrades is that the community is acting like the wife that always comes back to the husband who beats her	20:11
w00t_	Stskeeps: i made the mistake of mentioning #maemo on #meego :-P	20:11
GAN900	w00t_, it just REALLY frustrates me that they'll let the N900 slip away by not providing official support.	20:11
kwtm	CosmoHill: Also no removable battery, no removable storage card. I need to be able to travel to Asia (I do it at least once a year) and pop in a local SIM card and be ready to go.	20:11
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kwtm	GAN900: It feels like KDE3 and KDE4 all over again. :P	20:11
w00t_	GAN900: I'm not happy about the decision, admittedly, but I'll wait and see how the situation ends up like	20:12
GAN900	Stskeeps, well, because as much as Nokia sucks there's nobody better.	20:12
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: that app is kind of incredibly bad maintained, when it leaves you with a broken device. Evidentally, no?	20:12
MohammadAG51	you know why I hate the iPhone?	20:12
GAN900	I'd LOVE to be able to take my money elsewhere	20:12
GAN900	But where?	20:12
MohammadAG51	the 2G was soooo underpowered, yet it succeeded	20:12
MohammadAG51	iPhone 2G that is	20:12
Stskeeps	GAN900: i'm more talking about they're not actively trying to make the situation better. mostly chatting about the beating but that's about it.	20:12
xDaReaperx	DocScrutinizer : oh okay , next time i better think before i install anthing	20:12
Ikarus	hmz, ponder	20:12
Ikarus	I am hacking on getting BT PAN mode working	20:13
microlith	MohammadAG51: goes to show what interface design and hype gets you	20:13
GAN900	Stskeeps, making the situation better involves dropping Nokia like a rock and moving to another state. :)	20:13
Ikarus	but I am doubting between working up a userland NAT daemon	20:13
GAN900	Stskeeps, so the analogy doesn't quite work. :P	20:13
Ikarus	or requiring a custom kernel	20:13
Stskeeps	GAN900: or trying to work out a solution :P	20:14
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GAN900	Stskeeps, when a relationship is abusive, there is no solution. :)	20:14
DocScrutinizer	Ikarus: I thought there already is some NAT alike shit used for similar purpose?	20:14
t-tan	MohammadAG51: ??	20:14
MohammadAG51	Nothing	20:14
CosmoHill	wouldn't dropping nokia be like dumping your girlfriend after one argument?	20:14
GAN900	CosmoHill, no.	20:14
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: Wifi hotspot uses a custom kernel	20:14
GAN900	CosmoHill, this is the beaten wife analogy.	20:15
DocScrutinizer	ouch	20:15
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: haven't found anything else yet	20:15
CosmoHill	ah okay	20:15
Ikarus	and I have a userland NAT daemon in the rough	20:15
GAN900	One argument would've been dropping them in 2006 after the 770.	20:15
Ikarus	(it's pretty optimistic and all that, but for BT PAN with a couple of laptops should be fine)	20:15
Stskeeps	i wonder how the mobile landscape would have looked if maemo 1.0 was like meego 1.0.	20:15
DocScrutinizer	Ikarus: much better than yet another custom kernel	20:16
w00t_	Stskeeps: bit too early to say, I still think	20:16
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: well, BT PAN can use the same kernel as wifi hotspot	20:16
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: it only needs the NAT	20:16
* DocScrutinizer sighs		20:16
Ikarus	(BT DUN works for me, but I can't have both my phone and my laptop online that way)	20:16
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aziwoqpd	and bridging, to connect pan1 with the bnep* interfaces	20:17
DocScrutinizer	why-owhy do we need custom kernels for every shit?	20:17
kwtm	I like having the clout of Intel Moblin joined with Nokia, but since Microsoft may scramble to create a competitor (see IE7 vs. Firefox), MeeGo may or may not go far, so I'll stick with the bird in hand (Maemo) rather than two in bush (MeeGo).	20:17
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: well, with NAT, the N900 kernel lacks low level hooks for it	20:17
Stskeeps	kwtm: they're trying with windows phone 7 or something..	20:17
Ikarus	certain parts of iptables/netfilter need to be compiled in	20:17
DocScrutinizer	Ikarus: hmm, seems the stock kernel is real crap	20:18
t-tan	xDaReaperx: you installed kismet from devel?	20:18
SpeedEvil	Windows 7 is really based around the 2.0.33 kernel.	20:18
xDaReaperx	i think yes	20:18
SpeedEvil	It's got some way to go to catch up.	20:18
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: it's erm, barebones	20:18
DocScrutinizer	yeah	20:18
microlith	kwtm: what will microsoft do, release windows phone 7 in all its deliberately crippled glory?	20:18
kwtm	SpeedEvil: Sorry, what?? Did you just name a Linux kernel, or you're talking about the Windows kernel?	20:18
t-tan	xDaReaperx: don't blame anyone if you use -devel	20:19
* SpeedEvil wasn't being very serious.		20:19
Ikarus	DocScrutinizer: and modifying netfilter to be fully module insertable is significantly more scary then a userland NAT daemon :)	20:19
w00t_	I believe SpeedEvil was being facetious	20:19
kwtm	microlith: <laugh> knowing MS, they'll say: "Windows 8 for Phones! (requires DVD burner in your smartphone)"	20:19
xDaReaperx	well i'm not blaming any one yet , i just want my phone back up	20:19
xDaReaperx	should i enable R&D mode during Flashing ?	20:19
* kwtm was being gullible. :P		20:19
GAN900	Stskeeps, can you imagine?	20:20
Ikarus	xDaReaperx: NO	20:20
Stskeeps	GAN900: imagine what?	20:20
xDaReaperx	ok	20:20
GAN900	Picture where the iPhone is now	20:20
t-tan	xDaReaperx: on the wiki page you can read how to deinstall it in 1min	20:20
GAN900	Maemo 1 being like MeeGo	20:20
GAN900	But on a much wider range of devices and open	20:20
Stskeeps	and earlier than android..	20:20
kwtm	Where is the iPhone, anyway? Is the new iPhone 4 still tied to AT&T? Does it have removable storage (e.g. microSD) yet?	20:20
xDaReaperx	well i dunno about de install , i'm just trying to reinstall using the flasher	20:20
Stskeeps	basically my point was about, what if maemo 1.0 had been fully open source.	20:21
microlith	kwtm: yet it is still tied, no support for SD cards.	20:21
xDaReaperx	i'm reading the updating the firmware wiki and reflashing it	20:21
kwtm	I normally don't care about the iPhone but I have to defend the N900 against these iPhone enthusiasts.	20:21
Ikarus	Stskeeps: differentiation, it wouldn't have been deemed sellable by Nokia commercial	20:21
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t-tan	kwtm: but Apple has just invented Multitasking and videochat! it's so exciting ;->	20:22
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kwtm	t-tan: Yeah, and my colleague said: "Now it has FOLDERS! Now I can put things into CATEGORIES!" lol	20:23
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Imagine if Maemo 1.0 was open source and came from anyone-but-Nokia (e.g. Apple or Google)	20:23
GAN900	w00t_, also, I'm not so much negative about what I see now, as much as all my optimism has been beaten out.	20:23
GAN900	(of me)	20:23
Mece	helloo-o	20:24
w00t_	GAN900: that's a shame, really	20:24
Jaffa	kwtm: You need some damned awesome app to put N900 apps into categories :)	20:24
Mece	haa	20:25
GAN900	w00t_, yeah, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens	20:25
Mece	oh noes not another iPhone discussion	20:25
Jaffa	w00t_: Don't worry, it'll happen to you too	20:25
GAN900	I just wish I actually had the drive to try to make it better.	20:25
kwtm	Jaffa: Yeah, I had to blow $0.00 on this Catorize app to do that. :)	20:25
GAN900	What a ripoff	20:25
Ikarus	kwtm: well, I don't like how Catorize work	20:25
w00t_	Jaffa: I'm not that easy to break.. ask Stskeeps, he knows my masochistic tendancies	20:25
Ikarus	otoh, I am planning to rip it off :)	20:26
w00t_	GAN900: well, you still do obviously, because you're still doing things like writing that, and talking about it here, you still do care	20:26
Mece	categories are confusing.	20:26
kwtm	Ikarus: I don't either, but it's better than before.	20:26
Ikarus	I want custom catagories and be able to throw them into the groups I need	20:26
kwtm	Ikarus: Please do! I want to set categories of my own choosing, not the categories that were assigned previously.	20:26
Ikarus	exactly :)	20:27
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Jaffa	GAN900: :-p	20:27
Jaffa	IkarWhat's re your idas?	20:27
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GAN900	Jaffa, I installed the stupid thing and it messed up my application menu!	20:27
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Jaffa	Ikarus/kwtm: You don't have to fork - I'mm happy to include that in Catorise. The only things neede are icons and a (Qt?) editor	20:28
GAN900	w00t_, I do care, but I don't have the energy to try seriously to work my way in from the mailroom in MeeGo and make constructive things happen	20:28
DocScrutinizer	damn, is taskswitcher known to be a cpu hog? my device was almost too hot to do that call, after it sat there idling in taskswitcher for some hours (microb started as one of the running tasks, fwiw)	20:28
GAN900	Also harder because there isn't much demand for my sort of talents over there.	20:28
w00t_	GAN900: I was about to say - they're in a better starting position.. :)	20:29
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w00t_	I think (hope?) the future will be a lot clearer once the handset ux is out in the open	20:29
Ikarus	Jaffa: well, I really want the normal app UI, but with custom folders so I can dump stuff like games and utilities out of the main screen, so I am not sure how close that fits with Catorise	20:29
kwtm	If I go through all of maemo.org/downloads, have I exhausted all the (stable-enough-for-daily-use) maemo apps? Or are there other "app catalogs" that I can browse through for more apps?	20:30
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DocScrutinizer	Ikarus: +100 for catorize++	20:30
Jaffa	Ikarus: You want MyMenu. Apparently.	20:30
GAN900	Always with the hope and the future and the RSN. . . .	20:30
Stskeeps	GAN900: where are you fighting for any area of contribution in meego atm? out of curiousity	20:30
GAN900	"But I want it now!"	20:30
GAN900	Stskeeps, nowhere currently.	20:30
Jaffa	kwtm: That's everything. You can get stuck into the QA queue if you want to help get more apps in there.	20:30
Ikarus	Jaffa: that one didn't even work for me	20:30
GAN900	Stskeeps, helped a bit with the bz startup because Quim or somebody threw my name in there and with the forums.	20:31
Stskeeps	bz?	20:31
Stskeeps	ah, bugzilla	20:31
GAN900	bugzilla	20:31
GAN900	So much has shifted into paid hands, though.	20:31
Jaffa	Ikarus: It's abandonware :-/	20:31
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GAN900	And unless it's code, I dunno where to start trying to push.	20:31
GAN900	(another problem with MeeGo losing enthusiasm)	20:32
kwtm	Jaffa: Okay, time to break out the PyQT stuff so I can get some simple scripts/programs on my N900. I need more customization. Thx.	20:32
Ikarus	Jaffa: anyway, I might just for Catorise to make a sample, then we can see how/what we want to merge in	20:32
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kwtm	I still use Catorize. I figure that, if I am not in the mood to use it, I just choose the category "All" and it goes back to having all the apps in one place.	20:32
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kwtm	By "still" use Catorize I mean that I loaded it 2 days ago. :P	20:33
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Jaffa	Ikarus/kwtm: It'd be worth sharing the GUI editor, perhaps?	20:33
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Mece	hey you who care about which parts are open, can you tell me which parts of media player is open on N900?	20:34
GAN900	Stskeeps, I find it unfortunate that there hasn't been a more concerted effort to try to engage Maemo contributors.	20:34
SpeedEvil	gstreamer partially, ofr example	20:34
DocScrutinizer	Ikarus: I got a personal howto on tweaking catorise conf files some months ago. It was a pain so I gave up on it. but probably you could add the configure feature without even touching catorise code	20:34
SpeedEvil	~closed	20:34
GAN900	But everything just sort of defaulted to Moblin	20:34
infobot	it has been said that closed is http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages	20:34
Jaffa	Ikarus: or, if nothing else the editor can have a "reset" option which lets you start from scratch. Leave the grunt work to /opt/catorise/catorise and the editor plays with /opt/catorise/menu file	20:34
kwtm	Jaffa: what do you mean? You speak as if I'm a programmer --don't scare me. I left the software industry 12 years ago and now only know how to do Python (or C programs if they're less than 20 lines long).	20:34
GAN900	So you can talk about starting fresh with a new community and establishing merit blah blah blah	20:34
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GAN900	But the Moblin folks got a big boost up	20:35
GAN900	Which is discouraging for everybody who's not them.	20:35
Jaffa	kwtm: Just brainstorming - same UI, different engines	20:35
Ikarus	Jaffa: hmhm, we'll see	20:35
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: ack	20:35
Stskeeps	GAN900: well, that was the hope maemo community would help with, i would think - i mean, not many people have stood out in this initial phase	20:36
Mece	speedevil, i was thinking about playlist generation/sorting is an open part.	20:36
kwtm	I see. I like DocScrutinizer's idea of making it easy to configure Catorize, though.	20:36
Mece	s/about/if/	20:36
infobot	Mece meant: speedevil, i was thinking if playlist generation/sorting is an open part.	20:36
Stskeeps	and the internal wars of maemo.org haven't helped either, i think	20:36
GAN900	Mmm	20:36
xDaReaperx	flashing my n900 now	20:36
GAN900	But why hasn't anybody stood out?	20:36
xDaReaperx	says flashing done	20:36
xDaReaperx	erasing cmt	20:37
GAN900	I think there's more to it than just becuase "they suck"	20:37
Mece	gan900, in what context has noone stood out?	20:37
Stskeeps	GAN900: there was also a problem that contribution agreement(wrong term) wasn't set up until late	20:37
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Stskeeps	at least with code	20:37
kwtm	#1 on my Wishlist is something to make text entry easier: on my Treo 650, there's an app for "double-tapping the key [on the keyboard] means capitalize, and holding down the key for 0.3 seconds is same as pressing the Alt key".	20:37
xDaReaperx	yes N900 workign again !	20:37
GAN900	Mece, talking about Maemo contributors not really stepping up to MeeGo	20:38
GAN900	Stskeeps, sure, but that's only a part of things.	20:38
xDaReaperx	DocScrutinizer : Thanks a lot man ! you helped me a lot ! N900 works again	20:38
xDaReaperx	:D	20:38
xDaReaperx	took hardly 1 min	20:38
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: welcome	20:38
kwtm	xDaReaperx: Did your N900 enjoy seeing you expose your naked body? (j/k. "Flashing my n900 now")	20:38
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xDaReaperx	huh	20:38
Mece	gan900, why would they? we've got the awesome maemo going here :D	20:38
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xDaReaperx	lol	20:38
GAN900	As a Maemo contributor, I can't say the initial atmosphere felt particularly welcoming.	20:38
xDaReaperx	DocScrutinizer : The Dots are shown on the mobile , still not started fully	20:39
kwtm	GAN900: Were they cliquey? And were there official Intel/Nokia people, or just community?	20:39
Stskeeps	do a retrospective then while we all remember the troubles	20:39
xDaReaperx	should i unplug the cable ?	20:39
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: takes a while	20:39
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: that's a fist-boot	20:39
xDaReaperx	yeah nokia hands come now	20:39
DocScrutinizer	first even	20:39
DocScrutinizer	:-P	20:39
Mece	well to me, maemo feels comfortable, and meego feels cold and industrial :)	20:39
xDaReaperx	now it shows to set reginal settings	20:39
xDaReaperx	oh lol	20:39
crashanddie	fist boot. I wonder...	20:39
GAN900	Mece, aye	20:39
Jaffa	GANThere's so much discouragement (and ignoring of suggestions) that it's soul destroying. Not checked to see if it's different in the forums recently.	20:40
crashanddie	I quite liked MeeGo on the tablet	20:40
Jaffa	i.e. "we'll have the mailing list for official comms, and the forum for end-users"	20:40
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: I knew you lke it XP	20:40
DocScrutinizer	like, damn	20:40
crashanddie	Jaffa: how is that different from Maemo, really?	20:40
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GAN900	Jaffa, yup.	20:40
Mece	gan900, then again, maemo is at a much higher level than meego, at least I feel intimidated by the unfinished nature. easier with maemo.	20:40
GAN900	crashanddie, define "Maemo"	20:41
crashanddie	Jaffa: maemo has been like that for ages. Real discussions went on on the mailing lists, and then at some point an announcement was made (officially or not) on TMO	20:41
t-tan	GAN900: I won't have a look a MeEgo before it is somewhat useable on my N900	20:41
Stskeeps	do keep in mind in meego that it's not a democracy, as in, someone does have a last word, or disputes can be taken to people higher in hierarchy	20:41
GAN900	Yeah, the TSG	20:42
Stskeeps	ie, i might disagree with release engineering but there's a dispute path	20:42
crashanddie	Jaffa: hire me	20:42
Jaffa	crashanddie: yeah, so we pointed out the problems that caused on maemo.org and.... were just plain ignored	20:42
GAN900	Which doesn't bother to do its homework	20:42
GAN900	and cancels meetings with amazingly short notice half the time	20:42
MohammadAG51	<crashanddie> Jaffa: hire me	20:42
Jaffa	crashanddie: where I work? I wouldn't do that to you :(	20:43
MohammadAG51	wow, I guess i could be convinced to go to meego	20:43
crashanddie	Jaffa & GAN900: I think we may have put ourselves in that situation	20:43
GAN900	crashanddie, which situation?	20:44
crashanddie	Jaffa & GAN900: the whole .deb vs .rpm continuous and unending debates, trolls and discussions basically yelled one big message to anyone who has @intel or @nokia in their email address: They're nitpicking instead of trying to move forward. Everytime a decision will have to be made, we'll lose 2 weeks in useless debates until we've convinced every single noisy person.	20:44
Stskeeps	i wouldn't have minded council to stand together and collaborated	20:44
Stskeeps	appear as one and drag suggestions from consitutients	20:45
crashanddie	Jaffa: nha, you, yourself. You're plenty rich. Gimme a bit of your children's inheritance and we're set. I'll also do some work.	20:45
sjgadsby	RPM vs DEB was an embarrassment, but the micromanagement in MeeGo is smothering.	20:45
t-tan	crashanddie: they should have learned that "decide behind closed doors and don't communicate the arguments" doesn't work in a democracy	20:46
GAN900	that shit takes place everywher	20:46
GAN900	It's hardly anything new	20:46
Trizt	was it flameware like?	20:46
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GAN900	and if you want to claim to be "open", trolls and insane people are something you have to cope with	20:46
xDaReaperx	all my apps are uninstalled after flashing lol , gotta install the important ones and this time i gotta be really carefull	20:46
GAN900	Also: Howdy, sjgadsby. :J	20:46
sjgadsby	Hi, GAN900.	20:47
GAN900	s/J/)	20:47
Stskeeps	t-tan: except it is clearly not a democracy, just like the linux kernel isn't	20:47
Stskeeps	:P	20:47
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GAN900	t-tan, s/democracy/open distribution	20:48
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mece1	GAN900, you need a trailing /	20:48
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t-tan	on the continuum of autocracy - democracy it's definitely not going on the latter end	20:49
mece_	GAN900, you need a trailing /	20:49
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GAN900	mece1, I know, but I only use it when I actually want infobot to help out.	20:49
t-tan	Mece: yes, I'm waiting for it, too. otherwise I can't parse it :)	20:49
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mece_	hehehe	20:49
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t-tan	MeEgo = Stalinux? :)	20:50
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Stskeeps	while this may upset some people, at least with MeeGo it seems like it's not about endless discussions, it's about actually doing something.	20:51
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Stskeeps	which i can't say that we were in maemo.org - it was limited how much work was actually performed as a community	20:51
Stskeeps	there are, of course, good examples.	20:51
t-tan	lol: http://stalinux.com/	20:52
RST38h	BTW, is Quim still visiting maemo.org?	20:53
RST38h	Or is it out of his scope of responsibility nowadays?	20:53
DocScrutinizer	mece_: t-tan: s)gadsby ?	20:53
Stskeeps	yes, he peeks in quite often	20:53
Stskeeps	he's probably just as tired of tmo as the rest of us	20:53
sjgadsby	RST38h: He left comments this morning and said he'd be back later today.	20:53
microlith	can someone ban PradaBrada and delete his worthless posts?	20:53
RST38h	ah, cool	20:53
mece_	DocScrutinizer, i believe that was aimed at the smiley at the end.	20:53
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* RST38h kinda thought maemo.org has been abandoned now		20:54
RST38h	microlith: Would you also like someone to spank him with extreme prejudice? =)	20:54
sjgadsby	RST38h: "No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded."	20:54
GAN900	w00t_, official helps with perception, it maintains inertia and it doesn't kill enthusiasm.	20:55
* mece_ still likes maemo.org		20:55
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RST38h	sjgadsby: twue enough	20:55
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RST38h	Motorola Planning 2GHz Android Phone For Later This Year	20:57
sjgadsby	microlith: We may begin using an infractions system at t.m.o soon. I'm hopeful it will help.	20:58
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* mece_ wants more of these kind of things: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=708816#post708816		20:58
mece_	RST38h, does it run meego?	20:59
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RST38h	mece: Android? No.	20:59
RST38h	sjgadsby: Are you an admin at tmo?	20:59
sjgadsby	RST38h: super moderator, not admin.	21:00
mece_	RST38h, just kidding. I don't want android, but I'd like the hardware for maemo or meego :)	21:00
frals	bug #10654	21:00
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10654 Strategic projections do not save images from MMS-and memory and can not see the number or name of the sender.	21:00
RST38h	sjgadsby: Can I ask for a feature?	21:00
frals	can anyone explain that to me?	21:00
sjgadsby	RST38h: I can't implement features.	21:00
RST38h	sjgadsby: Can you insist on someone else implementing features?	21:00
FIQ	is there an easier way to refresh km and hour counter for a way other than cleanup, search and set it again?	21:01
FIQ	@ maps	21:01
sjgadsby	RST38h: No. Reggie's the only admin, and he's hard to get even a reply from, even as a moderator.	21:01
andrewfblack	RST38h: Super Mods can hardly ask let alone insist :)	21:01
RST38h	sjgadsby: <sigh>	21:02
andrewfblack	RST38h: what feature were you wanting?	21:02
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RST38h	andrew: "Do not show threads started by people whose accounts are younger than X months"	21:03
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cehteh	where X=12?	21:04
RST38h	cehteh: I would let the user choose X, and maybe make a few other tweaks	21:04
t-tan	Stskeeps: what do you think are the odds for #9314	21:05
Stskeeps	bug 9314	21:05
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314 relicense BME	21:05
ptl	voice changer for n900	21:05
ptl	that would be useful. And creeepy	21:06
t-tan	would it be possible give some developers access to the source?	21:06
Stskeeps	t-tan: short story: no way in hell, long story: DocScrutinizer is talking to the nokia guys	21:06
Surfa	ptl, how would it work?	21:06
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RST38h	voice chaRger for N900 would be creepy indeed	21:06
ptl	Surfa: change pitch and formants and some other elements of speech on-the-fly	21:06
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t-tan	Stskeeps: ok, thx	21:07
xDaReaperx	wow my N900 is heating up real bad	21:07
andrewfblack	RST38h: I'm not not even sure I've seen an addon to block users by account created date	21:07
RST38h	andrew: Not looking to block them, just hide their threads	21:08
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RST38h	andrew: I mean, we are all nice liberal and democratic, cannot ban people by arbitrary parameter	21:09
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: t-tan: well I tried to talk to them. No idea if there'll ever be an answer beyond "I have to do internal queries first"	21:09
andrewfblack	RST38h: either way I'm not sure it can be done also what if a new dev joins and creates really cool software you might miss it	21:09
RST38h	andrew: Which of course does not mean one cannot ignore them ;)	21:09
sjgadsby	RST38h: Even if Reggie didn't object to the idea of the feature, it sounds like custom code, which pretty effectively kills it.	21:09
dr34m	damn that akku is annoying had to charge it 3 times today already :o	21:09
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: you're much further than most people have been in the later years, so	21:09
RST38h	andrew: I am ok taking a chance with that new developer, there are other ways to find out	21:10
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: an occasional poke general direction hah won't hurt, if you incidentally run into him	21:10
Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: :nod:	21:10
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Stskeeps	man, PradaBada is a troll	21:12
andrewfblack	RST38h: just did a quick search and couldn't find any vbulletin plugins for it so I would say it can't be done. but like sjgadsby said even if we found a plugin for it as Super Mod it takes weeks sometimes for him to reply to us.	21:13
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t-tan	Stskeeps: how many people are authorised to talk the Guardian of BME? :)	21:14
andrewfblack	anyone remember the name of the program for N8x0 that would let you connect your N8x0 to a cell phone over bluetooth then put internet access out over wifi?	21:14
xDaReaperx	does extended call log work for anyone ? it just crashes for me	21:15
FIQ	about maemo.org	21:15
FIQ	http://rapidfiles.net/images/88313tmp.png	21:15
FIQ	interesting huh	21:15
Stskeeps	t-tan: i've met the guardian of bme	21:15
Stskeeps	:P	21:15
Ikarus	Stskeeps: kidnap him	21:15
Ikarus	then torture him to get him to reveal the secrets	21:15
BCMM_	xDaReaperx: works here	21:16
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xDaReaperx	i dunno it just shuts for me	21:17
xDaReaperx	never worked for me even before	21:17
t-tan	if something happens to him all Nokia batteries will break. he probably has to live in an atomic shelter... :)	21:17
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: if you want to modify bme i can do it for you	21:29
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: i've spent last week trying to understand how it works and what is where	21:29
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: we don't want to modify it though, we want to get a FOSS replacement	21:30
crashanddie	FIQ: you need to shut down some tabs	21:30
jacekowski	well, then you can ask how does bme work	21:30
jacekowski	i'll have to document that	21:30
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: nevertheless any knowledge sharing highly welcome	21:30
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: please visit jrbme.garage	21:31
ptl	jacekowski: would it be appropriate to document it on wiki.maemo.org ?	21:31
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME	21:31
t-tan	jacekowski: cool. is it possible to temporarily disable some operations of bme?	21:31
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t-tan	i.e. without shutting down bme	21:31
SpeedEvil	not easily.	21:32
jacekowski	not by bme itself	21:32
SpeedEvil	Possible if you for example jam a ld_preload or kernel shim layer in there	21:32
DocScrutinizer	I suggest not to spread about details too much, as we don't want to see Nokia feel uncomfortable with some ""potentially hazardous"" info and maybe even code emerging	21:32
xDaReaperx	offtopic : anyone watching the world cup ?	21:32
SpeedEvil	xDaReaperx: I'm fairly certain some are.	21:33
SpeedEvil	I'm not.	21:33
xDaReaperx	oh	21:33
pronto	xDaReaperx: there is a #archlinux-offtopic :p	21:33
andrewfblack	will N900 do adhoc networking?	21:33
jacekowski	t-tan: there is only one function in bme code that acctualy writes over i2c	21:33
xDaReaperx	lol ok	21:33
jacekowski	t-tan: when it's running	21:33
jacekowski	t-tan: and that function can be easily patched	21:34
SpeedEvil	andrewfblack: yes	21:34
BCMM_	andrewfblack: yes	21:34
FIQ	<crashanddie> FIQ: you need to shut down some tabs	21:34
andrewfblack	then I guess I found a way to get internet access at work to bad I'm going to have to carry 3 devices all the time	21:35
FIQ	mej	21:35
FIQ	mwh*	21:35
FIQ	..	21:35
FIQ	w/e	21:35
BCMM_	andrewfblack: and there is an application for sharing your 3g connection over an adhoc	21:35
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andrewfblack	BCMM_: problem is N900 doesn't have any cell connection at work I'm going to have to bridge my second phone to my N900 thought my N810	21:36
* andrewfblack so wishes it was possible to connect his N900 to his work network		21:37
crashanddie	FIQ: amazingly powerful retort. You should join a debate team.	21:37
jpinx-eeepc	andrewfblack: what's stopping you?	21:38
andrewfblack	jpinx-eeepc: crazy security setup that from what I can figure out only windows can connect to	21:38
jpinx-eeepc	Ah - ok. Maybe try samba?	21:39
* SpeedEvil points andrewfblack to win95+dosbox		21:39
andrewfblack	SpeedEvil: would that work?	21:39
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t-tan	jacekowski: would it be difficult to implement some dbus option for bme that can put the i2c function into r/o mode?	21:40
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jacekowski	t-tan: it would be easier to do over dsme interface	21:41
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andrewfblack	jpinx-eeepc: problem is WEP key is assigned by server and Radius server verifys who I am using login and cert. Windows has an option to let Server assign WEP Linux doesn't	21:41
SpeedEvil	andrewfblack: Probably not. No wifi driver	21:41
SpeedEvil	WEP crackker	21:41
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: most parts of Nokia still seem to believe messing with BME will turn your N900 into a little bomb. Patching BME won't help to convince them about anything different. I suggest you don't discuss such hacks too publicly	21:41
andrewfblack	SpeedEvil: I prefer not to break in lol	21:42
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: enroll.exe - google will help	21:42
t-tan	jacekowski: dsme is undocumented and closed as well, correct?	21:43
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jacekowski	t-tan: yes	21:43
jacekowski	t-tan: then there is bme interface as well	21:43
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jacekowski	but as DocScrutinizer noticed patching bme isn't very good idea	21:44
jacekowski	but there are workarounds	21:44
jacekowski	like LD_PRELOAD	21:44
DocScrutinizer	and there's a bit of safety measures taken in BME as well (and in DSME), and that is much more interesting than mere charging. As we know how to charge, we don't need to RE BME for that	21:45
jacekowski	but bme is doing fuck all really	21:45
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: what part are you interested in?	21:45
t-tan	yes, but that would require messing with the boot scripts....	21:45
DocScrutinizer	temperature monitoring and overtemp handling, e.g.	21:45
jacekowski	t-tan: or restarting bme after boot	21:46
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jacekowski	t-tan: so you start phone with clean bme	21:46
jacekowski	t-tan: then you restart it	21:46
jacekowski	t-tan: with LD_PRELOAD	21:46
DocScrutinizer	that's really easy, what's the problem in doing a simple "stop bme" for now?	21:46
t-tan	jacekowski: for some reason restarting bme that crashes my device	21:46
jacekowski	t-tan: you have to do it by doing stop bme	21:47
DocScrutinizer	t-tan: then you fsckd it up ;-P	21:47
jacekowski	t-tan: otherwise upstart will detect it and send info to dsme	21:47
t-tan	yes, I do "stop bme"	21:47
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DocScrutinizer	WFM	21:47
jacekowski	AWFM	21:47
t-tan	..with non-stock kernel, which we need for USBhost anyway	21:48
DocScrutinizer	t-tan isn't happy until he solved the issue on kernel domain level XP	21:48
DocScrutinizer	t-tan: it works with stock kernel 1.1.1 and 1.2 as well as with MohammadAG51's patched version	21:49
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MohammadAG51	what?	21:50
MohammadAG51	oh, nvm	21:50
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: if it doesn't work for you, I strongly recommend to sort out the issue - but not by patching BME	21:50
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DocScrutinizer	oops	21:50
MohammadAG51	???	21:50
DocScrutinizer	t-tan: if it doesn't work for you, I strongly recommend to sort out the issue - but not by patching BME	21:50
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MohammadAG51	riiight, back to wc	21:51
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DocScrutinizer	WC?	21:51
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DocScrutinizer	00	21:51
t-tan	MohammadAG51: yep, don't patch BME!!	21:51
DocScrutinizer	toilet? :-P	21:51
andrewfblack	I'm not going to give up on N900 at owkr for another month or so then I'm just going to order a http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/product_detail.do?storeName=storefronts&landing=handheld&category=PDA&lanAttr=Type&orderflow=1&product_code=FB041AA%23ABA&catLevel=2 for work	21:51
MohammadAG51	World Cup xD	21:51
t-tan	MohammadAG51: on the toilet? :)	21:52
MohammadAG51	hehe	21:52
MohammadAG51	no XP	21:52
xDaReaperx	oh lol	21:53
MohammadAG51	anyone else watching it?	21:53
xDaReaperx	yeah me	21:53
MohammadAG51	i'm still waiting for a maemo.org ad	21:53
MohammadAG51	did anyone get it in there?	21:54
t-tan	DocScrutinizer: bme fails if enable more features, which means it's very instable	21:54
DocScrutinizer	you bet it is	21:54
t-tan	MohammadAG51: is there an App for it?	21:54
DocScrutinizer	seems to be mega-ugly poorly written code	21:54
MohammadAG51	t-tan, you could've stopped before "if"	21:54
MohammadAG51	t-tan, nope	21:55
MohammadAG51	pelota	21:55
t-tan	I know, Big MEss	21:55
MohammadAG51	not an official app	21:55
t-tan	MohammadAG51: thx	21:55
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kaudio	hi	21:56
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DocScrutinizer	bbl	21:56
kaudio	can i conect usb modem in n810 ?	21:56
jacekowski	everything that don't need more than 200mA	21:58
jacekowski	and has linux drivers	21:58
kaudio	how conect usb modem in n810 ?	21:59
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jacekowski	hmm n810	21:59
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DocScrutinizer	enable hostmode with usb hostmode app, plug in externally powered hub, plug modem to hub	22:02
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GAN900	Goddamn I'm tired of having to reboot this thing like it's Windows 98	22:03
DocScrutinizer	you'll need an adapter USB-F2F, to plug the hub upstream cable to the Nokia CA-101 cable	22:03
DocScrutinizer	gnao.O	22:03
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: O.o	22:03
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DocScrutinizer	""you moved the mouse pointer. Please reboot to put the change to effect""	22:05
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DocScrutinizer	(sorry for poor back-xlation)	22:05
GAN900	It starts to become slooooooowww	22:05
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DocScrutinizer	oooh	22:05
DocScrutinizer	memleak or cpu hog?	22:06
DocScrutinizer	or something really nasty?	22:06
t-tan	DocScrutinizer: "please click here to save your changes and to reboot"	22:06
DocScrutinizer	t-tan: thanks :-D	22:06
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ptl	/etc/event.d/reboot start on startup	22:08
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DocScrutinizer	ptl: sounds like a nice idea :-D	22:09
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, probably memleak	22:10
GAN900	I haven't done any investigation yet though	22:10
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: blame microb/flash	22:10
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DocScrutinizer	flash is proven to be leaky	22:10
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: watch a 30s youtube, keep browser window open for a day ->fscked	22:11
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MohammadAG51	same with javascript	22:12
DocScrutinizer	hmm, prolly	22:12
DocScrutinizer	tbh I never faced that "gets slow after days" issue. Just that "freezes on inbound call, after keeping open microb"	22:13
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DocScrutinizer	and that only on "special" sites, where some crap js/flash is displayed	22:14
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konfoo	hot damn i just love fixing broken erlang installs	22:14
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: what do you specificaly want to know about these protections?	22:14
DocScrutinizer	so probably 90% of "commercial" pages	22:14
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: how they work, what sensors they use, when they are triggered	22:15
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DocScrutinizer	there's roundabout half a dozen temperature sensors inside N900 - that I know of	22:16
SpeedEvil	the one in the SoC is mentioned as 'don't use'	22:16
SpeedEvil	by TI	22:17
DocScrutinizer	also other protective messures highly interesting	22:17
SpeedEvil	no, I diddn't save the link to the forum	22:17
DocScrutinizer	like "general battery error" - whatever the triggering cause might be	22:17
DocScrutinizer	BSI (the ADC in twl4030)	22:18
DocScrutinizer	how is it used?	22:18
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RST38h	Doc: Got a list of /sys entries?	22:21
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maddler	howdy!!!	22:21
ptl	howdy ho!	22:22
maddler	wake up, lazy bummers!	22:22
maddler	:)	22:22
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: especially BSI - as there's a lot of fuzz and legends around that one. Could be everything from NTC temp sensor inside battery to cell chemistry indicator to "just used for no special purpose, as it's there"	22:22
jacekowski	BSI?	22:22
maddler	Butchered Smoothly Inside	22:22
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: the third contact of battery	22:22
DocScrutinizer	supposedly Battery Size Indicator	22:22
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: of what exactly?	22:23
xDaReaperx	i tried the roadrunner app , dosent seem to work lol , hope i dont get caught speeding	22:23
RST38h	Doc: Of all the temperature sensors of course!	22:23
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: you are talking about thingy connected to pin named BSI	22:24
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: I guess most of then aren't used at all, probably none of them is exposed to /sys	22:24
DocScrutinizer	yep, jacekowski	22:24
RST38h	Doc: shame	22:24
jacekowski	hmm that's going to be fun	22:24
jacekowski	there is nothing about it in datasheed	22:24
jacekowski	datasheet	22:24
GAN900	lol, resounding endorsement from Reggie	22:24
GAN900	Interesting	22:24
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: I gather it's going to a A/D inside twl4030 GAIA	22:25
RST38h	BSI = Blowing to Shit Immediately	22:25
RST38h	When you see a logical "1" there, RUN.	22:25
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: i do know that	22:25
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: but i have no idea which one	22:25
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: i'm using tps65950 datasheet that's supposed to be pin compatible	22:26
jacekowski	but c10 on that is a ground	22:26
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RST38h	Wilder Publication is under fire for putting warning labels on copies of historical US documents, including the Constitution. The label warns "This book is a product of its time and does not reflect the same values as it would if it were written today."	22:27
DocScrutinizer	Sorry, seems I'm missing a bit. Thought I remember it's routed to GAIA, but actually scanning the schem it runs to GAZOO (modem)	22:27
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: ^^^	22:27
Mousey	RST38h: they should put that label on bibles	22:27
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jacekowski	do we have any ida what gazoo is?	22:28
RST38h	Mousey: they will rather put the Constitution title on the bible	22:28
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: and bme isn't talking to anything except two bq chips and twl4030	22:29
t-tan	Mousey: they will put "Warning: this it the truth" labels on the bible	22:29
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: yes, there's another "battery temp sensor" on GAIA ADCIN0	22:29
Mousey	Truth(tm)	22:29
RST38h	jacekowski: Gazoo is a really lousy Martian from a cartoon	22:30
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: so the question is: does BME or DSME talk to the modem - maybe the modem's drivers whatever they are?	22:30
xDaReaperx	there's an actual Temperature monitor for N900 ?	22:30
DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: dozens :-P	22:30
xDaReaperx	hmm name a good one	22:31
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DocScrutinizer	xDaReaperx: yes, there's another "battery temp sensor" on GAIA ADCIN0	22:31
xDaReaperx	hmm okay	22:31
DocScrutinizer	one is inside LYSTII LP5523 LED controller chip	22:31
DocScrutinizer	(unused)	22:32
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xDaReaperx	so much and i never knew lol	22:32
DocScrutinizer	one is inside bq24150 bat charger chip (probably used bot not exported to sys)	22:32
Mousey	t-tan: http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/Bible-Warning-Label-702307.jpg	22:32
RST38h	Doc: sneaky, they really expected the led controller to overheat	22:32
RST38h	Doc: They need a bigger led!	22:33
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DocScrutinizer	RST38h: nope, it's for calibrating LED current to compensate fro changing efficiency of LEDs over temp	22:33
xDaReaperx	any applications that can actually read the temperatures ?	22:33
t-tan	Mousey: yes, I think I have watched that thriller movie recently ;-)	22:33
RST38h	oh	22:34
* RST38h thought that was only true for led lasers		22:34
Mousey	^_^	22:34
RST38h	normal led stuff isn't very sensitive to temperature	22:34
jacekowski	xDaReaperx: well, you can read it from /dev/twl4030-madc	22:34
xDaReaperx	hmm okay	22:34
DocScrutinizer	anyway, you can calibrate a temp-coefficient to compensate for that	22:35
xDaReaperx	like ?	22:35
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pupnik	nokia, please give n9 better speakers than n900)	22:35
DocScrutinizer	pupnik: I don't think N900 speakers are particularly bad	22:36
RST38h	pupnik: is it ok if n9 runs Symbian^3?	22:36
* RST38h ducks		22:36
tripzero	lol	22:36
timoph	:)	22:36
tripzero	n8 runs symbian, i thought n9 was going to be a meego device?	22:36
xDaReaperx	lol	22:36
RST38h	nobody ever said that	22:36
xDaReaperx	well could be that the N9 would run meego , but its never sure	22:36
tripzero	rumors	22:37
greenfly	I don't think anyone ever says anything until the day something is released	22:37
xDaReaperx	or a prototype ^	22:37
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RST38h	ah, hello, konttori	22:38
DocScrutinizer	please pointers to N9! never heard of...	22:38
konttori	hi	22:38
RST38h	Doc: google?	22:38
RST38h	Doc: (there are not many though, nothing to look at)	22:39
DocScrutinizer	konttori: Hi :-)	22:39
frals	o/	22:39
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GAN900	MeeGo's actually just Nokia conning us into directing our energy somewhere	22:39
GAN900	They're never actually shipping a product. :P	22:39
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RST38h	You never know	22:39
RST38h	Maybe they will ship a netbook!	22:40
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, stupid house digram on Engadget.	22:40
frals	so where in finland would i go to get some tiger balm?	22:40
* RST38h ducks even harder		22:40
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GAN900	frals, I could sell you some and mail it. :P	22:40
pupnik	DocScrutinizer: the existence os software speaker protection indicates they do not perform up to spec	22:40
t-tan	what does the chimney mean?	22:40
frals	GAN900: thanks but err, it be faster to get someone back home in sweden to mail it i assume ;)	22:40
t-tan	smoking hot device?	22:40
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timoph	frals: the pharmacy?	22:41
DocScrutinizer	pupnik: not really, the problem is we got a class-D amp with no highpass filter to get rid of DC/LF	22:41
frals	alright	22:41
xDaReaperx	This is weird , my phone is up to date , but now when i browse to store.ovi.com it says you need to update maemo	22:41
frals	apotekki or whatever its called? ;o	22:41
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timoph	apteekki :)	22:41
pupnik	DocScrutinizer: if the speakers need lf filter to not break, it should be designed in the pcb	22:42
pupnik	why are we even discussing this	22:42
timoph	not sure if they sell it but it's good place to start asking	22:42
vldcnst	maemo.org down?	22:42
DocScrutinizer	pupnik: ack, but it wasn't	22:42
frals	ah, think i have that across the street	22:42
xDaReaperx	wait maemo.org is down ?	22:42
frals	cheers timoph	22:42
xDaReaperx	wont load	22:42
pupnik	DocScrutinizer: i am curious to learn the reason for xprot	22:42
timoph	yep. waiting for maemo.org	22:43
pupnik	DocScrutinizer: listening to n810 now. volume is sufficient	22:43
xDaReaperx	maemo loads now	22:43
DocScrutinizer	well, I'm not any wiser than you about Nokia's internal bugtracker and the details. But it's obvious there is a LF/DC issue in the circuit	22:43
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DocScrutinizer	but that doesn't mean the AMP is not too strong for the speakers, nevertheless I like it better this way round than the other which would mean amp is clipping before speakers porform up to their full power	22:46
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DocScrutinizer	so wrt that your N900 is in no way diferent to your home stereo	22:47
DocScrutinizer	just for your home stereo you are the limiter usually ;-P	22:48
DocScrutinizer	while for N900 we need one in software	22:48
xDaReaperx	my N900 firmware is up to date , but when i go to the ovi store it says you need to update your firmware	22:48
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DocScrutinizer	just forget ovi	22:49
xDaReaperx	hmm	22:50
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xDaReaperx	why ?	22:50
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DocScrutinizer	because it seems ovi store is utterly useless for N900	22:51
lbt	SpeedEvil: :) thanks	22:51
lbt	mece_: you too	22:51
xDaReaperx	hmm ok	22:52
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DocScrutinizer	++ for texrat	22:55
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ptl	it's useless for me at least	22:55
ptl	I'd like to buy QuickPanorama	22:56
ptl	but I can't	22:56
ptl	not supported for my country	22:56
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lbt	how do I type swedish into an N900 with a uk keyb?	22:58
lbt	Mjölk	22:59
pupnik	n810 screen size is better	22:59
MohammadAG51	swap em	22:59
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, did you just read that post?	22:59
pupnik	i have a great dpad design	23:00
DocScrutinizer	just skipped to the thread you started on tmo	23:00
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, ah, do read the whole of his article.	23:03
DocScrutinizer	the cryptotabula?	23:04
DocScrutinizer	I did	23:04
ZogG	MohammadAG51, say wat?	23:05
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ecksun	is there a way to find out if the GPS is in use or if the phone uses cell ids or something similar to determin the location?	23:13
microlith	if the GPS goes active, there's a satellite dish icon in the notification area	23:14
ecksun	yes, but even if i use nonstattelitepositioningmethods the dish appears	23:14
ecksun	Im developing with qtmobility - location	23:15
microlith	hm, no tsure	23:15
crashanddie	stattelite positioning methods?	23:15
crashanddie	what the fuck is stattelite?	23:15
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ecksun	crashanddie, a typo	23:15
crashanddie	you meant satellite?	23:16
ecksun	yes	23:16
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ecksun	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtmobility-1.0/qgeopositioninfosource.html#PositioningMethod-enum	23:16
crashanddie	damn, that's a serious typo bro	23:16
ecksun	indeed, never the less my question still remains :)	23:16
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: if you are interested it's very simple to read from twl4030	23:17
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: I know. The question is what BME does with it	23:17
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jacekowski	not a lot	23:17
jacekowski	there is one function that's used to read from it 00015D84	23:18
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jacekowski	and there are couple calls to it and these calls read ADCs: 4,9,0,12	23:19
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DocScrutinizer	mhm	23:19
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b-man	did you guys see this? http://learningwebgl.com/blog/?p=2303	23:22
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mece_	lbt, huh, what?	23:24
* mece_ was watching the game.		23:25
mece_	b-man, yeah, I tested some demos, and it was pretty cool.	23:25
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jacekowski	hmm i just said 0	23:27
lbt	mece_: testing shopper	23:27
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lbt	although annoyingly someone had a bug wrt utf-8 and I fixed it...	23:27
lbt	so I'm debating pushing the fixed version...	23:28
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	is there a minimal browser for maemo or a minimal mode for fennec - so I can use mobile sites faster (I'm assuming it loads the full site in fennec)	23:30
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mece_	lbt, I suggest pushing the fixed version right away and making a [maemo5] announce thread with a link to the testing page. I don't think you ever actually announced the app for N900.	23:31
lbt	OK :)	23:31
lbt	it's a weekend	23:31
CutMeOwnThroat	how do you save the current time to the hardware-clock?	23:31
lbt	hwclock	23:32
mece_	lbt, :D	23:32
CutMeOwnThroat	that's not in my maemo... anyway, isn't that pc-hardware only?	23:32
lbt	Usage: hwclock [-r\|--show] [-s\|--hctosys] [-w\|--systohc] [-l\|--localtime] [-u\|--utc] [-f FILE]	23:32
lbt	on my n900?	23:32
lbt	from busybox	23:33
CutMeOwnThroat	well, N810 here	23:33
jacekowski	CutMeOwnThroat: all devices have rtc	23:33
lbt	well now... it doesn't work on an Atari either ;)	23:33
* lbt ducks		23:33
CutMeOwnThroat	jacekowski, with what you mean what exactly?	23:33
jacekowski	RTC- real time clock	23:33
jacekowski	that's what hwclock is manipulating	23:33
CutMeOwnThroat	i got the abbreviation, I just don't know what you mean	23:33
jacekowski	22:32 < CutMeOwnThroat> that's not in my maemo... anyway, isn't that pc-hardware only?	23:34
CutMeOwnThroat	ok	23:34
CutMeOwnThroat	so hwclock would work if I had it	23:34
jacekowski	just stating that it isn't pc only	23:34
CutMeOwnThroat	right	23:34
jacekowski	yes	23:34
jacekowski	hwclock can access clock in 2 ways	23:34
jacekowski	one is pc way	23:34
jacekowski	which is default one	23:34
jacekowski	another is trough kernel driver	23:35
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jacekowski	and /dev/rtc	23:35
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jacekowski	or it's other way round	23:35
mece_	lcuk, aahaha I just got what "feature creep" meant. And you're right. Although I think the filename extension is a pretty good feature and I've cursed the lack of it many times.	23:35
mece_	wait, omg lcuk is not here!	23:36
jacekowski	hmmmmm	23:36
CutMeOwnThroat	hm, in lenny, hwclock is supposed to be in util-linux, which is not in diablo (I'm supposing it hasn't migrated between packages since etch)	23:36
jacekowski	that looks interesting	23:36
CutMeOwnThroat	so how does the N810 ever set the hardware clock?	23:36
DocScrutinizer	probably the usual GUi / system ways to set time deal with setting RTC, on diablo	23:37
CutMeOwnThroat	I noticed that if I run ntpd and adjust the time, it'll be wrong again after the device was switched off	23:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: http://pastebin.com/G1wjArcB	23:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: that looks interesting	23:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: it's reading adc 4	23:37
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jacekowski	ret: 0 status: 0 result: 469	23:38
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	is there an automated way to install lots of stuff from the package manager other than one-by-one?	23:38
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MiXu-	Yes. I'm not sure how it works but the backup/restore function utilizes that.	23:38
jacekowski	apt	23:38
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	oh, you mean use the cmd line rather than the gui?	23:39
MiXu-	apt from command line is prolly easier solution :)	23:39
DocScrutinizer	strongly discouraged, but yes	23:39
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: that's for sure interesting, but needs further investigation otherwise is quite obscure and meaningless	23:40
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CutMeOwnThroat	discouraged?	23:41
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh, yeah apt ftw. Also, a good way for getting help is to change your nick to something shorter and easier to type :P	23:41
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mece	CutMeOwnThroat, well I suppose you can cause some damage with apt if you don't know what you're doing ;)	23:42
CutMeOwnThroat	like what?	23:42
jacekowski	hmm BSI isn't a temperature	23:43
jacekowski	that's for sure	23:43
CutMeOwnThroat	I think you'll do damage by adding weird stuff to your sources.list independent of if you use the gui thingy or apt-get	23:43
jacekowski	unless it's working in reverse	23:43
DocScrutinizer	why not	23:43
mece	CutMeOwnThroat, well.. if you do apt-get remove libhildonfm2 for example, which I did recently, and ignore the gigantic list of stuff listed under "these will be removed" you'll have some trouble :)	23:44
jacekowski	well, i'm reading 29 on really warm phone	23:44
jacekowski	and colder phone was reading 38-39	23:44
DocScrutinizer	as mentioned before these are usually NTC, which means Ohms drop with rising temp	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	mece, you know you can just push tab after the first few chars and it fills in the name	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	speaking of tab, where is it on the n900	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	heh	23:44
CutMeOwnThroat	mece, that's a lot of ifs :)	23:44
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: OMG	23:44
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: thanks :D	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	lol	23:44
jacekowski	well, i'll have to find that code in bme	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	suddenly everything is easier	23:44
crashanddie	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: could you use a real nick, please?	23:44
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: but I like to use , instead of :	23:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	yep, I've 'puter skills; time to get phone skills	23:45
mece	crashanddie: well yours isn't the best one either :P	23:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	just bought the n900	23:45
crashanddie	mece: no, but at least it means something	23:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	wonder if there is a guide somewhere to initial tricking it out	23:45
mece	crashanddie: tru dat.	23:45
mece	s/tru/true/	23:45
infobot	mece meant: crashanddie: true dat.	23:45
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: yes, the compares against certain limits, that's what is interesting, and what exactly are those limits	23:46
DocScrutinizer	cya	23:46
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	what do you all use instead of kismet on the maemo	23:46
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: what kind of tricking are you thinking about?	23:46
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	for gps/hotspots	23:46
mece	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: nothing.	23:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	tricking, just getting used to all of the possible features etc	23:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	that's odd	23:47
MohammadAG51	BlessN900 is kinda weird	23:47
MohammadAG51	it replaces the camera driver	23:47
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: yeah, I don't know what to think of it	23:47
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: apparently they're in the process of patenting a shitload of idaes	23:48
crashanddie	though the results are marginal at best	23:48
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	how do you manage all of the apps you guys have installed?	23:48
crashanddie	and their website is ridiculous.	23:48
ljsdofuynsdfufuh	just call them everytime via cmdline?	23:48
mece	MohammadAG51: what is BlessN900?	23:48
MohammadAG51	mece, a camera app which makes it magical	23:49
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: like "bme stops charging, when readout of ADCIN4 in GAIA (0xF0, adr xy, blah) is <4711" - then write that down and post to jrbme forum or wiki about bme	23:49
MohammadAG51	and takes "HDR" pics	23:49
crashanddie	ljsdofuynsdfufuh: please change your nickname, I've sent you a private message, and you've been asked twice in this very channel. Next stop for you will prevent you from talking.	23:49
mece	MohammadAG51: nice.	23:49
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ljsdofuynsdfufuh	I've had no private messages	23:49
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MohammadAG51	crashanddie, I installed it, but... can't see much of a diff	23:49
MohammadAG51	plus the pics are borked	23:49
shorter	crashanddie you realize you can push tab after the first few chars, right?	23:50
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crashanddie	shorter: you realise I can ban your ass for no reason, right?	23:50
shorter	I didn't	23:50
GAN900	crashanddie, shush	23:50
shorter	so far I've had a great experience at #maemo	23:50
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shorter	I'd hate to see that change	23:50
mece	shorter: careful crashanddie has a very itchy ban finger ;)	23:50
crashanddie	me too.	23:50
jacekowski	crashanddie: i would just ban him	23:51
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: you have to crop at 100% if you want to see differences. You also need to take the picture with both systems to actually compare and notice the differences	23:51
shorter	actually one of the reasons I went for buying the n900 was the quality of this channel	23:51
mece	sh	23:51
jacekowski	for a year at least	23:51
mece	shorter: hee	23:51
crashanddie	shorter: you've been here before?	23:51
jacekowski	probably under nick longer	23:51
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, it has lines in the pic, I thought the driver was broken	23:51
shorter	under my old name a whole lot, yes	23:51
crashanddie	shorter: and what was that name?	23:52
shorter	I've spent many hours chatting here and no one was sour before	23:52
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shorter	ljsdofuynsdfufuh	23:52
jacekowski	uuuuu	23:52
crashanddie	damn, I must be lucky, never seen you	23:52
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jacekowski	he's using multiple sessions here	23:52
jacekowski	that's evil	23:52
jacekowski	and reason to ban	23:52
mece	wtf?	23:52
shorter	Yeah, I don't get it	23:53
shorter	back to maemo discussion	23:53
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shorter	I was asking how yall organize all of the apps you've installed	23:53
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mece	crashanddie: don't be mean :P	23:53
mece	shorter: whadya mean organize?	23:53
greenfly	shorter: ideally the app launcher would keep track of each time you launch an app, and then you could sort by frequency	23:53
crashanddie	shorter: You've been here two or three times. Don't bluff. http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/+ljsdofuynsdfufuh	23:54
greenfly	not sure how difficult such a feature would be to add though	23:54
sjgadsby	greenfly: You trying to mess with my muscle memory?	23:54
shorter	I said I had, yes	23:54
greenfly	sjgadsby: heh, neh, that's the beauty of it being an option	23:54
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crashanddie	shorter: anyway, let's move on. Sorry for being an ass.	23:54
crashanddie	shorter: I just use catorise, which does the job fine	23:55
crashanddie	shorter: it splits all the apps in different menus. Pretty neat once you remember where everything went	23:55
mece	shorter: I have big pile of stuff, and the things I use alot I put on a desktop :)	23:55
greenfly	^^^	23:56
shorter	will do	23:56
greenfly	I do the same, if I have to dig through the huge menu more than a few times, it goes on the desktop	23:56
mece	crashanddie: I had that, but I found myself only using "all", so I removed it.	23:56
* MohammadAG51 gives catorise another try		23:56
shorter	I'm used to fluxbox so....heh	23:56
* mece doesn't have all that many apps installed.		23:56
* MohammadAG51 has a shitload of icons		23:57
greenfly	well right now when you type on the desktop, it enters a search mode for your contacts	23:57
greenfly	somewhat handy, but I find myself opening apps more than contacts	23:57
crashanddie	Khertan: Bon bha voila, la France est bien partie. GG Domenech, quel connard ce mec. L'equipe de france fait vraiment que de la merde. Loin du public, loin des fans, ils renient ceux qui les font exister. Bien fait pour leur gueule de faire match nul. J'espere qu'ils se font humilier ensuite.	23:57
greenfly	it might be cool to switch the mode from searching through contacts to searching through programs	23:57
greenfly	(or maybe do both ala gnome-do)	23:58
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crashanddie	greenfly: it would indeed be cool to have options... When you start typing, you should have a switch at the top of the window that allows to choose between contacts and apps, or a mixed mode	23:58
crashanddie	mixed mode would display apps and contacts, a bit like spotlight does on osx	23:59
mece	I think I'm gonna upload a new wesnoth and wesnoth-data package to devel.	23:59

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