IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-12-14

timeless_mbpi'd settle for its ui not sucking :)00:01
timeless_mbpof course, i don't intend to use it00:01
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Arkenoigarage still down?00:12
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pupnik!lart patent-lawyers00:13
JaffaArkenoi: NAFAIK00:14
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woglindeArkenoi seems up00:15
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woglindebut slow00:15
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wazd_n800Arkenoi, are you developing something already?)00:17
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Arkenoinot yet, but i think i will00:18
threshanyone know how to fix that? aclocal: macro `gl_FUNC_ARGZ' required but not defined00:19
threshtrying to compile liboil00:19
wazd_n800Arkenoi, cool)00:19
wazd_n800Arkenoi, something useful?)00:19
woglindethresh install GLES libs00:19
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threshwoglinde: i have libgles1-sgx-img-dev libgles2-sgx-img-dev and opengles-sgx-img-common-dev installed.00:21
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phreckanyone tested any of the n800 pentesting apps on the "900?00:21
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jebbahmm, in "sbox-MaemoKernel" chroot, the packages are foo as set up, there's no libncurses-dev, and you can't `fakeroot apt-get -f install`. It bombs with "dpkg: requested operation requires superuser privilege"  even though run as fakeroot.  Hmm.00:23
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wazd_n800Arkenoi, well, if you'll need any help with UI - gimme a call :)00:26
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threshwazd_n800: we need help with UI ;-)00:26
RST38hwazd: Ok, I tested 48x48 icons00:26
wazd_n800thresh, mm?00:26
threshwazd_n800: we as in 'vlc media player'00:27
RST38hwazd: they barely fit, with search-next/search-prev 32x3200:27
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wazd_n800thresh, hello there)00:27
RST38hwazd: fortunately, that is the only resolution I could find these icons inHildon, so all is good :)00:27
* SpeedEvil wonders if thresh is keen.00:27
woglindethresh just compile the qt plugin00:28
threshwoglinde: imagine how would it look like on n900 screen00:28
RST38hArkenoi: Do not, DO NOT install SB1. Install SB2.00:28
wazd_n800thresh, well, I'm the right person to ask)00:28
woglindethresh I didnt look what you did with your .ui file00:28
RST38hArkenoi: Unless you want to partake in a sexual intercourse with NFS00:29
woglindedesign a new one00:29
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woglindethresh if you dont use .ui file at vlc yet switch to it00:29
wazd_n800RST38h, you can fit 10 (8+1wide) icons by removing margins00:29
wazd_n800RST38h, dunno if it's possible00:30
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RST38hwazd: not possible00:30
RST38hwazd: all I am doing is changing a few xml files for icons00:30
RST38hand even fbreader itself apparently just asks gtk+ to create a toolbar for it00:30
wazd_n800RST38h, then remove that stupid rotate button and make proper accelerometer support))00:31
Arkenoiwhich conditions trigger the famous wifi battery drain bug? i use wifi all the day and then take phone out of home without reboot for sure and never seen fast drain00:32
wazd_n800so I guess I should make 32x32 icons00:32
RST38hwazd: I am kinda too lazy and busy for it00:32
RST38hwazd: Looking at how hildon icons work, I think you should just make an app icon and maybe the tree/book list icons00:33
RST38hbecause the toolbar is currently just fine00:33
woglindethresh hm git vlc is on ui, so fire up qt-designer and make one suitable for n90000:33
RST38hArkenoi: problems with power management on your router00:33
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wazd_n800RST38h, oh, that's cool00:34
Arkenoirst38h, they say it happens while the phone is disconnected from wifi00:34
RST38hArkenoi: says who?00:34
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wazd_n800thrash: what exactly do you want to be helped with?00:35
Arkenoimany people both on tmo and fmr00:35
woglindeintressting that vlc still has a ui for opie in repos00:36
threshwoglinde: vlc doesnt use .ui for main window00:36
Arkenoibtw they recommend fixing network mode as GSM if you have no 3G coverage; seems that it does not improve battery life at all or the gain is too insignificant00:36
woglindethresh why?00:36
threshno idea, i'm not the one who wrote that plugin00:37
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ppriyankhi...i need help with my n900?00:37
ppriyankcan anyone help me out....i was reffered here by thread00:38
wazd_n800ppriyank, no you don't00:38
ppriyanki don't wat?00:38
wazd_n800ppriyank, need help :)00:38
ppriyankoh, lol,  i did not mean to put that question mark at the end of it...I DO NEED HELP00:39
woglindethresh hm only propblem can be with gl stuff for audio visualaization00:39
wazd_n800ppriyank, :)00:39
ppriyanki was going to return my n900 that i bought from nokia usa tomorrow00:39
woglindebut the qtgl widget should abstract this00:39
ppriyankso i wanted to delete everything from the phone...and i opened x-terminal and typed in rm -R $home/*00:39
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ppriyankand now my phone is screwed up, it does not turn on...just shows the NOKIA logo :(00:40
ManuelSEslow hand clap00:40
woglindeppriyank hm reflashing image should work00:40
jkimball4is there a way to turn on logging/core dumps or some other form of information that would be useful for debugging?  i'd like to try to debug these random turn offs00:40
wazd_n800ppriyank, reflash it?00:41
ppriyanknow i read a wiki about flashing it with flasher00:41
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mikhasyou return it anyway00:41
ppriyankbut the command prompt does not recognize my device00:41
ppriyanki'm returning it because i bought it for 620 from nokia, but now i got my pre-order from newegg for 560, so i figured i'll return the nokia one, so i can keep the cheaper newegg one (nokia sales person said i have 14 days to return it)00:42
luke-jrso 2.6.32 does not boot at all :x00:42
SpeedEvilluke-jr: :(00:42
ppriyankwazd_n800, i'm using windows 7 64-bit00:42
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: does 2.6.28?00:42
SpeedEvilor whatever the 'stock' version is?00:42
ppriyankany advice would be greatly helpful!00:42
luke-jrSpeedEvil: uh, obviously the stock 2.6.21 works...00:43
luke-jrSpeedEvil: but not Gentoo anymore00:43
SpeedEvilluke-jr: I mean - if you recompile00:43
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luke-jrno clue, don't really care00:43
Mika_ippriyank: 64 doesn't support flash program00:43
SpeedEvilluke-jr: To restate - have you ever had a kernel you compiled work I mean00:43
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: yes, though not with this cross-compiler now that you mention it00:43
wazd_n800ppriyank, sorry, I can only help you in theory, I don't  have the device00:43
RST38ha'ok, now I am asleep for real00:44
wazd_n800RST38h, cya00:44
ppriyankmika_i, so if i use my friends' computer...which is an XP...would i recognize my phone?00:44
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ppriyankor would i have to download the flash drivers on it?00:44
RST38hAh, somebody built Hatari for N900. Cool.00:44
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luke-jrppriyank: what does Flash have to do with it?00:44
wazd_n800ppriyank, you can install vm probably00:44
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wazd_n800ppriyank, not sure if it will  work00:45
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ppriyankwhat's "VM?"00:45
wazd_n800ppriyank, virtual machine00:45
ppriyankluke-jr, i don't understand? i'm trying to flash my phone00:45
luke-jrppriyank: so what's the problem?00:46
ppriyankso i figured in order for the computer to recognize my phone, it probably needs a flash drivers00:46
wazd_n800ppriyank, VMWare, VirtualBox00:46
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luke-jrjust run the stupid flasher app w/ the right args00:46
luke-jrno, it doesn't need any drivers to flash00:46
Mika_iuse this but as i said flash program doesnt work in 64bit system00:46
ppriyankwhat do i do with virtual box? (as u can tell i'm not all that good with computers)00:46
w00tthe flasher doesn't work on windows 7 at all00:46
w00tlet alone 64bit00:46
luke-jrMika_i: it does if you download the 64-bit version00:47
luke-jroh, windows00:47
ppriyankMika_i, yes that's the wiki i was using00:47
luke-jrwho uses Windows?00:47
w00the does, and I do00:47
w00t(which is why I know this)00:47
ppriyankluke-jr: there is a 64-bit available for flasher?00:47
luke-jrppriyank: for Linux, yes00:47
ppriyankoh, nvm00:48
ppriyanki've neva used linux before (seems too complicated, and yet I bought this device)00:48
luke-jrless complicated than Windows00:48
luke-jrWindows has got to be the most difficult OS to use00:48
ppriyanki'm lovin it dho, and it was workin perfectly fine, until my smart@$$ decided to rm -R $home/*00:48
wazd_n800oh my, not again...00:49
luke-jrppriyank: lol?00:49
jkimball4if only it had zfs ...00:49
luke-jrppriyank: why would you do that?00:49
* Arkenoi wonders what's wrong with all that n900 users who complain about phone lasts no more than 7-9 hours standby *without* persistent internet connection. Are there just so many broken devices or..?00:49
wazd_n800luke-jr, cause it's SOOO easy in llinux :D00:50
ppriyankumm, that "lol" was referring to your question "who uses windows"00:50
luke-jrwazd_n800: yes?00:50
luke-jrppriyank: nobody in my home uses Windows00:50
ppriyankluke-jr: i did "rm -R $home/*" because i was tryin to erase everything on my n900, in order to return it back to NOKIA US00:50
wazd_n800luke-jr, much easier than in windows)00:50
luke-jrppriyank: well if you're going to return it anyway, why bother?00:51
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Jaffappriyank: There's a "Clear device" in Settings' app menu; FWIW.00:51
ppriyankcuz i'm afraid they wont take it00:51
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ppriyankJaffa: my phone does not turn on, when i power it on, it shows the NOKIA logo, and goes dark, it does not turn on though! :(00:51
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Arkenoimy gf does, she is an artist and she needs some software to paint (and she hates mac versions for some reason)00:51
wazd_n800luke-jr, windows is so complicated that you can't even ruin your system with a single row))00:52
Jaffappriyank: Reflash, incluing the eMMC image. It should fix the boot issue and also ensure all your data is gone.00:52
luke-jrwazd_n800: sure you can00:52
Jaffawazd_n800: del /r c:\windows00:52
wazd_n800Jaffa, it won't allow you00:53
ppriyankJaffa: that's what i'm trying to do, but when i run the command prompt, it does not recognize my phone. (i downloaded the firmware, and am using the flasher 3.5)00:53
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wazd_n800Jaffa, I've already tried in vm600:53
ppriyankJaffa: this is the wiki i was following
Jaffawazd_n800: Even as admin? With /f?00:53
wazd_n800Jaffa, yep00:53
ppriyankapparently it seems like since i'm using windows 7 64-bit, that might be the problem.00:54
wazd_n800Jaffa, files are in use00:54
Jaffawazd_n800: On some machines removing boot.ini will render the machine unbootable00:54
Jaffawazd_n800: Ha! A system so inept it can't delete a file which is open. Causes me no end of pain every day00:54
Jaffa(for a non-expert user, anyway)00:54
ppriyankapparently this guy had a same problem, and he even tried with xp with no results so far...i'm reading the thread right now...
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Jaffappriyank: Boot an Ubuntu live CD and use the Linux flasher, perhaps?00:55
wazd_n800Jaffa, well, at least it can't shoot itself))00:55
Jaffawazd_n800: Well, it can - there are files which aren't in use which are necessary for booting00:55
ppriyankJaffa: I've neva used linux before, so if i do chose to go on that route...i'd have no idea what to do00:55
JaffaBut I'm not going to attack Windows; nor overly defend Linux; on such a pointless argument when I could be asleep ;-)00:56
wazd_n800ok, let's stop that snseless flamewar)00:56
Jaffappriyank: Most of the instructions are on that wiki page. There are other threads on tmo from the N8x0 days which should help too.00:56
wazd_n800Jaffa: yeah, me too)00:56
ManuelSEi poured acid in my n900 and now it is corroded00:56
ManuelSEi sending it back00:57
* Jaffa poured coke over a Psion Series 5 once. Sticky keys.00:57
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wazd_n800Jaffa, howw dare you!00:57
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ppriyankJaffa: i'm willing to give it a shot, now where exactly do i get the ubuntu live cd? and do i save it on my computer, or do i need a usb drive for it (i don't have one)00:57
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wazd_n800Jaffa, you're a monster! :D00:57
ManuelSEphosphoric acid plus psion00:58
wazd_n800ppriyank, burn it00:58
luke-jrppriyank: you need a CD burner00:58
ml-N900mmm, I loves me a real keyboard00:58
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luke-jrppriyank: alternately, they will ship you a printed CD00:58
ppriyankthanks, will google it and burn it on a dvd (hopefully that'll work because i dont have cd-rws)00:59
ManuelSEwhere is synergy deb00:59
ManuelSEburn dao at slow speed00:59
wazd_n800I wonder if there will ever be resurrected psion with e--ink display )00:59
nezbrequest an ubuntu cd at
luke-jrnezb: you're missing the K00:59
wazd_n800and, like, 1 year of work time from 2 AA batteries)01:00
ppriyankluke-jr: there are two of them there, kubuntu/ubuntu, does it matter which one i pick?01:00
luke-jrppriyank: get the K one01:00
nezbwhy Kubuntu?01:00
luke-jrit sucks les01:00
nezbif you want a good KDE distro try Mandriva Linux01:00
wazd_n800oh noes01:00
ppriyankluke-jr: oh i thought this would be free :(01:01
nezbUbuntu is better as a gnome distro01:01
wazd_n800ppriyank, pick anything01:01
luke-jrppriyank: did you actually read the page? gratis download, buy a CD, or gratis CD01:01
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xorAxAxis there an rss feed or email feed on new packages?01:02
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ppriyankluke-jr: nvn, thankx, downloadin it on my desktop and will put it on a dvd after that.01:04
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ppriyankhopefully this'll work01:05
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SpeedEvilI'm unsure if I've found asked this before - I can't seem to find it on the wiki. Is there a nice guide to debian/slackware/ubuntu/whatever in a chroot on the n90001:06
luke-jrppriyank: you are aware how to burn ISO files, correct01:07
ppriyankluke-jr: yes...i have a free iso burner (to dvd)01:08
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ppriyankluke-jr: i guess i do not need to do this...just got off the phone with nokia, and they said if it hasn't been 14 days, i can return it to them :)01:09
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luke-jrppriyank: k01:15
luke-jrmy bootmenu is showing "TEST" in large green latters under "Press and hold MENU key for advanced boot menu"01:15
luke-jrjust hanging01:15
ppriyankluke-jr: ok i just burnt the kubuntu on a dvd, i'm willing to try it, and flash it01:15
luke-jrdo I really need to pull the battery to reboot it to normal?01:16
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: ssh in and reboot01:16
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: there's ssh at bootmenu?01:17
b-man17 :)01:17
SpeedEvilluke-jr: oh - opps, please ignore01:17
jaemb-man17, is that real? if so, nice work01:18
b-man17yup - and thanks :)01:18
luke-jrb-man17: now get it rotated and scaled <.<01:18
jaemhow is it coming?01:18
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* b-man17 is planing to optimize it to use OpenGL ES01:18
jaemwhich emulator is that?01:19
infobotjaem meant: which emul**** is that?01:19
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jaemah, haven't heard of it01:19
jaemluke-jr, kidding01:19
jaemit's called sarcasm01:19
luke-jrisn't desmume the *only* Linux DS emu?01:19
b-man17it's a nintendo ds emulator01:19
jaemb-man17, is it ported to the DS under Linux?01:20
jaemnot that that would be in any way useful, but just wonderijng...01:20
luke-jrjaem: it'd be useful for ROMs...01:20
b-man17what do you mean? xD01:20
luke-jrand multitasking01:20
b-man17nvm xD01:20
jaemb-man17, well, you can run Linux on the DS, no?01:20
luke-jrb-man17: DS in Linux in DS01:20
luke-jrcan desmume run Linux?01:21
b-man17jeam: yes, dslinux01:21
jaemit's a "just because you can" sort of thing01:21
luke-jrthen you can test it01:21
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luke-jrdesmume on dslinux on desmume01:21
b-man17i could01:21
b-man17it's capable of running homebrew stuff01:22
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jaemwhich reminds me, I was at a concert, and at one point, everyone broke out their cellphones to start waving in the dark, and I just grinned and pulled out a dumbphone, N810, and N900 from under my coat01:22
jaemBecause I Can01:22
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woglindejaem pfff01:22
pupnikjavi[tab] :01:23
luke-jrjust booted 2.6.30-rc8 cross-compiled01:24
luke-jrso cross-compiler is not at fault at least01:24
pupnikno good news on pulse audio yet?01:24
pupniksee 2:41
luke-jrscrew pulse audio01:24
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pupnikhow? :)01:24
b-man17pupnik, btw what i'm running is 0.9.5, not 0.7.3 ;)01:25
pupnikb-man17: of what?01:25
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pupnikah standard pc version?01:25
b-man17i believe so01:26
* pupnik guesses 8 fps01:26
b-man17mm - 16-20 :))))01:26
luke-jr16-20 = -401:26
b-man17it will run faster once i get it to use OpenGLES ;)01:27
luke-jrhow do you get -4 fps?01:27
b-man17no, 16 to 20 fps01:27
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phreckanyone tested any of the n800 pentesting apps on the n900?01:29
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b-man17pupnic, btw if you haven't seen xD01:29
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pupnikty cool stuff b-man1701:30
pupnikdo you remember what it gets on n800?01:31
jaemrandom question: does anyone know of any good diagrams/tables comparing FOSS licenses arranged by permissiveness?01:32
jaema friend's looking for one, and I can think of anything off the top of my head01:32
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b-man17pupnik: i'm not too sure, i haven't used it on an n80001:36
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pupniklooking back i see 3-5 fps for desume back in spring 200801:37
pupnikon n8x001:37
pupnikyou are using gp2x source b-man17 ?01:38
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woglindehe pupnik01:40
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woglindepupnik sorry for qtnx and nx stuff little more work is need01:40
woglindemaybee I will make it over christmas holidays01:40
b-man17pupnik: i used the source code straight from the desmume site01:40
pupnikwhat is unsatisfactory for you?01:40
pupnikah ty b-man17 maybe they improved speed last year?01:41
b-man17the transition from 0.8 to 0.9 is HUGE01:41
b-man17even the code has changed01:42
b-man17c > c++01:42
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b-man17and a re-written 3d rendering engine, witch could explain speed01:42
woglindeluke-jr whats the problem with pulse?01:42
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jaemwoglinde, is that you who's working on qtnx?01:43
jaemon the N810 as well?01:43
woglindejaem jupp01:43
woglindewas a contrator worked01:43
luke-jrwoglinde: ALSA works fine01:43
woglindebut the contractor wanted it as opensource ;)01:43
jaemwoglinde, woo01:44
jaemwoglinde, any idea why the nxssh command called by the GUI (on the N810) truncates the domain?01:44
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jaeme.g. the connection process hangs because it's trying to connect to, say "" instead of ""01:44
woglindejaem hm oh01:44
woglindenever saw this problem01:44
jaemI purged the config and forced a reinstall, and it kept doing it01:44
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b-man17pupnik: i'd have to say 3 to 5x faster ;)01:45
jaemdo you want me to duplicate it now and check anything for you?01:45
woglindejaem its just the plain nxssh from no machine01:45
jaemrdesktop is nice for doing class work without going to the CS lab, but my friend and I use NX for our personal machines and servers01:45
woglindethe contractor needed the proxy-stuff01:45
jaemwoglinde, yes, but it's the nxssh command line that's wrong, not the nxssh comand itself01:45
woglindewhich normal ssh dont have01:45
* timeless_mbp sighs01:45
timeless_mbpcan someone figure out what that is?01:45
woglindejaem hm okay than maybee a problem with libnxcl01:46
jaemqtnx is calling it with truncated command line arguments01:46
woglindeor qtnx it self01:46
jaemwoglinde, I meant to take a poke at it, but I wasn't familiar with Qt then01:46
woglindejaem thanks for reporting01:46
jaemwoglinde, anything I can check for you?01:47
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: looks liek a review of MicroB01:47
jaemI would note that it happens with IP addresses and domains01:47
woglindeI will dive in it over christmas too01:47
woglindewith ip too?01:47
timeless_mbpluke-jr: with no mention of the n900?01:47
jaemyeah, give me a sec01:47
woglindewhat the hell01:47
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luke-jrtimeless_mbp: correct01:48
jaemwoglinde, it didn't use to do that, but I had it uninstalled for a while, so I don't know if an update was released that broke it, or if it something else causing it somehow01:48
timeless_mbpand this makes sense?01:48
jaemlet me just try it again now01:48
woglindejaem hm pupnik didnt report this error01:48
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: dunno, send me a N900 and I'll see if it has MicroB01:49
timeless_mbptake my word for it?01:49
jaemwoglinde, it's been happening for months now, but I kept forgetting to figure out who the maintainer was01:49
AakashPatelWhat was the quetsion? lol01:49
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: ;)01:49
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: I seem to recall some N900 reviews saying it had a new browser...?01:50
timeless_mbpmicrob2? :)01:50
jaemluke-jr, yeah, links :)01:50
timeless_mbpactually, counting microb versions is hard01:51
timeless_mbpmicrob3? :)01:51
timeless_mbpmicrob1 being gecko in process01:51
timeless_mbpmicrob2 being gecko out of process01:51
luke-jrwhich version is on Diablo?01:51
timeless_mbpmicrob3 being gecko with a new tile based painting api01:51
luke-jrthat one sucks terribly01:51
timeless_mbpby this numbering, that'd be 201:52
timeless_mbp(this isn't an official numbering)01:52
luke-jrspeaking of which01:52
luke-jrI let it boot Diablo cuz Gentoo no longer works01:52
woglindejaem /usr/share/doc/changelog.Debian.gz next time for maintainer01:52
luke-jrdidn't do anything, just let it boot and run01:52
luke-jrfor a few days01:52
jaemwoglinde, yeah, stupidly forgot about that01:52
luke-jrssh'd in, the -launcher thing was eating 100% CPU constant01:52
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jaemI'll be back shortly, and I'll test it out again01:52
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pupnikdisabling sound gets 52-60 fps, enabling it, 24-4401:55
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woglindepupnik lol01:57
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woglindegood nite01:59
moo__luke-jr: wait for fennec02:00
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moo__it is already in beta02:00
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pupnikcu woglinde02:02
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woglindejaem tomorrow02:02
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saltsa_why maemo is based on deb-packages instead of rpm? :(02:03
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kynkyi like rpm less than deb02:06
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kynkymoo__, which version of fennec you use ? b5 isnt optified , im using the optified nightlies (b6)02:07
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moo__kynky: not yet any version02:08
moo__I have found microB sufficient for my needs02:08
Lantihas anyone got a cifs.ko that works on the n90002:08
Lantineed to be able to mount my shares02:08
kynkyfilezilla for windows supports ssh shares (sftp)02:09
saltsa_kynky, rpm just have some nice features, like package signatures, packages verify, rollback and so on02:09
Lantikynky you talking to me?02:10
moo__kynky: I have used winscp02:10
kynkyLanti, yep02:10
saltsa_especially the signatures are nice feature...02:10
Lantiwhy? im on about smb shares02:10
kynkysaltsa_, i use gentoo, nothing is comparable in package management :)02:11
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jaemkynky, you're right - Arch is better ;)02:19
kynkyi used to use arch, its a nice binary distro02:20
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kynkyprob best binary distro i used02:20
kynkybut portage is amazing , far more complex than arch, for instance use flag dependencies and version dependencies02:22
kynkythan pacman i mean02:22
pupnikb-man17: can you blit to opengl at native DS resolution and have clutter stretch that to screen?02:22
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luke-jrmoo__: um, no. I don't use Maemo period :p02:34
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jebbahe's just a troll in this channel. Who knows why he's here all the time if he doesn't even use it, but he blows his life here.02:41
b-man17pupnik: i think i could02:41
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jaemkynky, I can appreciate that (from a safe distance :P), but I don't have a good enough primary machine to want to compile most things02:49
jaemthe friend who got me into Arch described it as "Gentoo with the Gentoo", which suits me quite well02:50
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jaemI kind of wish I could run Arch on the N900, but that would be far too much work for the few geeks who would use it :P02:50
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kynkywell there ppl trying to get gentoo working on n90002:51
jaemkynky, ha... I heard they did that for the N810, too02:51
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jaemI suspect one of the issues (aside from the obvious unsuitability of a source-based distro on a phone), is all the proprietary bits that can't be distributed directly (and are only available in DEB format)02:52
kynkyso arch should be possible, its biggest benefit is its kiss nature, so not much todo for basic install, compared to say other distros02:52
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SpeedEvilcan someone try downloading a ~100M file from the browser?02:52
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SpeedEvilIt seemed to die shortly after I tried to do that.02:52
SpeedEvilClaiming 'no memory'02:52
kynkyjaem, you can use binaries in gentoo :)02:53
SpeedEvilCurrently having netowrk problems02:53
jaemwell, along the lines of what I was just saying, one of thing nice things about Arch is that the AUR makes builds (usually) painless, and nicely circumvents anti-redistribution clauses by simple automagically repackaging the vendor's files to work in Arch02:53
jaemkynky, I've heard that, but is it done much?02:53
jaemand is it through Portage, or something else?02:53
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jaemsigh... HAM locked up when dismissing a application-modal dialog02:54
kynkyjaem, for stuff without sources or huge packages , or for binhosts etc, sabayon is basically a custom version of gentoo and that a binary distro02:54
kynkyyeah its through portage02:54
jaemwhich means that I can't exit it from within the app, and because of the dialog, I can't close it from the switcher02:54
jaemhave to do it manually02:54
kynkyaur is nice and simple02:55
jaemkynky, ah, yes - I tried Sabayon quite a while back, but  I was then new to Linux, and I don't think Sabayan was terribly stable at that point02:55
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jaemkynky, yes, and since Arch's package format follows KISS as well (at some expense, yes, but I find DEB/RPM to be horribly pedantic), it's trivial enough to write and submit PKGBUILDs that I always do02:56
kynkyjaem, completely agree02:56
jaemso once one person builds an app, everyone else can do it automagically02:56
jaemheck, if you don't bother about conforming to their (minimal) standards, you can properly package some random source tarball in a matter of minutes02:57
jaeminstalling sbox on arch is painful, though02:58
kynkyarch is only trouble for me was lack of version specific apps, and when system things changed in testing, lots of things got broke until was recompiled/repackaged against new stuff02:58
jaemeven in the necessary chroot02:58
jaemkynky, well, that's what you get when you run from [testing] :P02:58
jaembut yeah, if you don't read the news feed, you can sometimes get hit with some issues, as sometimes they have to make a break with major components02:58
jaemit annoys my friend a bit with his server, because when he first installed it, they didn't say "RTFNews" very clearly02:59
jaembut I'd rather that than have big changes done by a postinstall script02:59
kynkyjaem, not really such an issue with gentoo though, any system stuff changes than just revdep-rebuild and rebuilds all reverse dependencies of the system stuff that had changed02:59
jaemit still bugs me that Ubuntu fires up and takes daemons on install without confirmation, but that's just a matter of philosophy03:00
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kynkyubuntu is like the opposite of arch03:00
kynkyboth are good for the goals they set to achieve03:00
jaemyeah, and it's kind of odd that there was a huge rush of new Arch users who were ex-Ubuntu users a while back03:00
jaemyes, I agree03:00
jaemalthough sometimes I get frustrated with both, and wish I had the time and knowledge to spin my own mashup distro03:01
kynkyand a lot of ex gentooers too :)03:01
jaemI really like pacman because it's simple, and almost entirely self-contatined03:01
jaemapt is fine, except for the Evil that is dpkg-query03:02
crashanddie_mbpwhy would you want to create your own distro?03:02
crashanddie_mbpAnd how are you "frustrated" with either arch or ubuntu?03:02
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, little things - not nearly enough to think about making my own seriously...03:02
jaem...just that every distro has a strong philosophy, and none of them are exactly what I'd like in an ideal world03:02
kynkythere are alot of distros to choose from :)03:03
cpscotti(totally got it midway...... but yeah.. seems like that)03:03
jaeme.g. with Arch you get power, simplicity, and speed, but with some trade-offs, most of which are well worth it, but some of which are mildly annoying03:03
ManuelSEi hope you all know #mer03:04
jaemand with Ubuntu, you get the out-of-the-box experience, and ease of use, but at the expense of personal control03:04
kynkythey rely on cli rather than gui for configuration ?03:04
jaemManuelSE, yes03:04
crashanddie_mbplol at speed03:04
crashanddie_mbpgentoo and arch have never been about speed, and anyone who thinks that is just wikipedia-fueled fanboy03:05
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, well, Arch makes Ubuntu look fat, even though it really isn't03:05
jaemthat's all I meant03:05
kynkyarch install with x can be done in minutes from fresh, is i686 optimized for 32bit03:05
jaemI wasn't referring to "magic build flags" or anything - I just meant that it's a relative lightweight, even with a full desktop03:05
kynkygentoo is about choice03:05
jaemso I guess "speed" wasn't the best word03:06
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jaemalthough when your primary desktop is a dual-core Atom, it comes to about the same thing03:06
jaemkynky, for me it's mostly an issue of the trade-off between control and ease of use03:06
jaemI want to be *able* to mess with things if I care to, but there are some things I don't *want* to mess with if I don't have to03:07
* AakashPatel wants updated haze03:07
jaemArch almost exactly hits the spot there03:07
kynkyarch basically comes with nothing and you have to add what you want, ubuntu has lots and you have to uninstall what you dont want03:07
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kynkyjaem, waht you want is exactly what arch tries to solve though03:07
jaemkynky, yes, and they do a good job03:08
crashanddie_mbpjust get debian and be done with it03:08
jaemI wasn't criticizing them, just saying that nothing is perfect for everyone03:08
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, lol03:08
jaemand Arch is the closest for me03:08
jaemI run Kubuntu on my other desktop right now03:09
kynkydebian is also good they got one of the best, if not the best, linux arm distro03:09
crashanddie_mbpmaemo is the best :P03:09
jaemI've never tried actual Debian - I meant to, but I never got around to it03:09
kynkyi thought ubuntu + kde was better than kubuntu :)03:09
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, maemo is awesome, but I just wish I could take Busybox out and shoot it :P03:09
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jaemkynky, well, if you install the metapackage, it comes to much the same thing03:10
kynkyjaem, what would you replace busybox with ?03:10
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Anprheya, guys :)03:10
jaemI never used to like Kubuntu, but this release is pretty solid, and they have plans in the works to make it much better03:10
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jaemkynky, full Unix utils.  I know it's a space issue, for one thing, but once they get bootmenu working, that's less of an issue03:10
kynkyjaem, i haerd ubuntu with kde was better than kubuntu, becuase kubuntu was a traversty, and needs much love, which it will soon be getting03:11
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jaemsome of the crazier things I've tried to do on it and the N810 bailed because of grep not supporting a certain switch, or things like that03:11
kynkyman busybox03:11
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Anprguys who of you are not so bussy ?03:12
kynkyobviously that only works as a search term on the browser though, not in xterm (by default)03:12
jaemkynky, with all due respect to the Kubuntu devs (and not blaming them), it did use to stink a bit, but as I said, it's gotten to the point where I can recommend it, and according to their blogs, they're addressing the remaining issues03:12
jaemkynky, yes, I know what busybox is and how to use it, but a lot of the tools are too slim for my liking03:12
jaemAnpr, go ahead :)03:12
crashanddie_mbpubuntu has been in a recommendable state since v6 or something03:12
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, I meant Kubuntu03:13
jaemUbuntu's great03:13
jaembut Kubuntu needed some love for a while03:13
crashanddie_mbpkubuntu is crap, always has, always will be03:13
crashanddie_mbpprobably because it uses KDE :P03:13
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, let's not get into that03:13
Anprjaem is it possible to run java sript on n900 ?03:13
jaemAnpr, javascript?03:13
jaemdo you mean with a standalone interpreter, outside of the browser?03:14
crashanddie_mbpAnpr: yes, the browser supports javascript03:14
jaemlike one would with QtScript, Windows Scripting engine, etc, or in the browser?03:14
crashanddie_mbpAnpr: if you're talking about Java (as in Sun's Java), then no, it is not supported03:14
Anprcrashanddie_mbp yeah i was talking about sun probably03:15
kynkyas opposed to netscapes javascript or microsofts ecmascript or jscript03:15
Anpri just have one game03:15
Anpras i know it's based on java03:15
crashanddie_mbpjust java then, not javascript03:15
jaemAnpr, what do you need Java for?03:15
Anpri tried to run it, but it says install java03:15
jaemyeah, that's a no-go, at least for now03:15
jaemwait, what?03:15
jaemhow did you try to run it on the N900?03:15
jaemand what type of file is it?03:15
Anprfrom the browser03:15
kynkyapplet ?03:15
Anprit's just a browser game03:16
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jaemyeah, sorry.  There was a partially-functional JVM for Maemo 4, but I don't think anyone has one for Maemo 5 ata ll03:16
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Anpri wonder will it be the thing, which devel03:17
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Maceromg. obama is in dollhouse!03:19
Anprwhich could attract to developers?03:19
jaemif you mean support attracting them, I doubt it03:19
jaemIMO one of Maemo's advantages is that it supports other languages03:19
jaembut I can see the use-case for a browser plugin03:20
crashanddie_mbpMaemo's support of a multitude of languages is also its greatest weakness03:20
Anprand one more question, just had different answers on the forum03:21
jaemAnpr, shoot03:21
Anprdoes n900 support video conversations on skype ?03:21
jaemcrashanddie_mbp, isn't that always the way of things :P03:21
jaemAnpr, not at the moment03:21
kynkynot as far as know03:21
jaemthat reminds me03:21
crashanddie_mbpthat being said, Java would probably not be an ideal candidate -- It took Java 6 versions to become seriously fast on desktop and server environments, how long before it's fast on a tablet?03:21
jaemwith the news of Skype open-sourcing their UI for Linux, I wonder if the method Nokia used to hook it into Telepathy is at all related03:22
Anprbut if there were some tries, as jaem said, on maemo 403:22
kynkycrashanddie_mbp, depends , but java always been fast, swing was slow until 1.4/1.503:22
jaemI thought that was kind of the point... that you could use Skype communication in whatever way fit your platform03:22
ShadowJKreplacement touch window assembly: 55€03:22
* jaem ponders03:23
crashanddie_mbpkynky: are you on drugs?03:23
Anprthis game is on for maye 7 years, and it was possible to play it even with pentium 1 or 203:23
crashanddie_mbpkynky: java was dog slow in java 3 and 403:23
Anprso i just wonder..03:23
kynkycrashanddie_mbp, you mean for gui ?03:23
crashanddie_mbpfor everything!03:23
moo__it was not slow, it was just resource hungry03:24
moo__lots of memory, slow start up time03:24
kynkywell it was used a lot in enterprise for network communications handling many thousands of requests and connections a second03:24
kynkylots of memory used, agreed03:24
moo__kynky: the end user does not usually handle thousands of network communications :)03:24
GAN900crashanddie_mbp, copycat. :P03:24
kynkyi was just giving an example of why it wwasnt slow03:24
DocScrutinizer51hmmm. my first trac reply. couldn,t postpone any longer :-P03:25
crashanddie_mbpGAN900: ?03:25
jaemmoo__, depends on your user :P03:25
Anprany of you guys from UK ?03:25
Anprhave particular question connected with UK providers03:25
crashanddie_mbpkynky: considering 40% of my job over the last year was developing J2EE applications, you're not teaching me anything ;)03:25
crashanddie_mbpAnpr: I'm based in London but am in california atm03:26
kynkycrashanddie_mbp, thats what i do for 100% of my job :)03:26
Anprkynky if you make skype call is it charges even if you have unlimited web ?03:26
crashanddie_mbpkynky: so you're bored out of your ass?03:26
kynkyanpr what provider you with ?03:26
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jaemkynky, depends on what your carrier means.  Probably yes03:26
kynkycrashanddie_mbp, i do alot of spring now03:26
Anpri have heard some people saying that it is data transfer and they will charge u03:26
GAN900It is data transfer.03:27
jaemif they say "unlimited on-device browsing", or something similar, then I have no idea how you got that plan03:27
crashanddie_mbpGAN900: had that in the nickname since I installed colloquy03:27
crashanddie_mbpGAN900: when at work IRC is firewalled, so I have to use webchat03:27
SpeedEvilAnpr: Personally, I recommend t-mobile PAYG 6-month-internet booster03:27
SpeedEvilAnpr: 30 quid gets you 60 month internet03:27
jaemAnpr, it does count, but normally carriers wouldn't allow you to get any sort of pseudo-unlimited plan for the N900 for the simple reason that they can't control what you do with it (which is a good trade-off, IMO)03:27
SpeedEvilAnpr: 1G/mo use03:28
kynkyvoda dont officially support skype, they should block unless you get the max deal at an additional cost of 25pounds/month , the only uk carrier tto support skype properly (as in reasonable cost) is three mobile03:28
SpeedEvilAnpr: 6 month03:28
SpeedEvilnot 6003:28
jaemkynky, tunnel it through ssh :P?03:28
luke-jranyone here messed with the serial port? :x03:28
jaemthat didn't work all that well on the N81003:28
AnprSpeedEvil, yeah but i bought my n900 with voda.. so i am kind of stuck on voda for 12months03:28
jaemluke-jr, on Maemo? yes03:28
Anprso just wondered03:28
Anprbut i had like a better idea03:28
luke-jrI taped wires to it, but now my N810 won't boot at all03:28
jaemluke-jr, what do you need?03:28
Anprif voda charge u anyway03:28
jaemluke-jr, *facepalm*03:28
Anprso for example if i got wifi connection03:28
jaemoh, *that* serial port03:28
luke-jrjaem: there's two?03:29
kynkyAnpr, they wont charge, they will just block, they can only charge if you go over your 500mb/month limit03:29
Anprand am making skype call through a wifi connection, so they cant charge me, can they ?03:29
jaemluke-jr, I thought you meant in software, not the actual hardware port03:29
jaemI've messed with rfcomm recently03:29
SpeedEvilAnpr: no03:29
moo__Anpr: they cannot03:29
jaemoh snap - right, I need to file a bug about that03:29
SpeedEvilAnpr: as it's not going through their nets.03:29
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kynkyAnpr, im ith vodafone now, but didnt get n900 on contract, i bought it halfprice from nokia store03:29
SpeedEvilAnpr: they have not modified the n900 at all03:29
kynkyif you go through wifi, voda wont know03:30
SpeedEvilAnpr: so it's the completely stock software stack03:30
Anprso it allows me to make free skype calls, i just have to make it through wifi?03:30
SpeedEvilor USB-net03:30
luke-jrAnpr: use SIP, not Skpye -.-03:30
moo__Anpr: think it as a computer03:30
kynkyAnpr, you can *try* to make then over 3g03:30
Anprcheers, i got it now =]03:30
jaemAnpr, as I said, you own the N900, and they can't control what you do with it (at least in terms of the hardware and OS itself), so that means they won't give you any breaks03:30
Anprbut it seems to me unfair to block those kind of transfers03:31
jaemin fact, they might even be nastier in some cases03:31
Anprit could be open, but still 500mb/month03:31
moo__jaem: in France, they modify HTTP headeres03:31
kynkythey say they block the sype ports (doesnt mean they do), you can go through a proxy or vpnto bypass it, set up a free vpn on your home computer, or pay a small fee to use one03:31
jaemAnpr, it's a cell carrier - they've lobbied the government to remove the word "fair" from the English language03:31
jaemmoo__, blech03:31
DocScrutinizer51Anpr: you also can use a new SIM with a different plan. I don't think voda has simlocked the N90003:31
jaemmoo__, VPN?03:31
moo__Anpr: you can complain to some consumer advocacy in your country. I think all UK operators are evil bastards which should get bombed out of the business.03:32
AnprDocScrutinizer nope they havent03:32
jaemoh wait, you can buy the N900 through the carrier unlocked?03:32
Anprits sim free03:32
kynkyAnpr, in there eyes its completelyfair, their primary buisness is about sending telecommunications data , using their network03:32
jaemwe don't have it in Canada, so I wasn't even aware the carriers were selling them03:32
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kynkyall n900 are unlocked afaik03:32
moo__kynky: if you buy data traffic then its your traffic - why carrier should know what you are doing with it the traffic03:33
Anprmoo__ true, but it just an unnecessary headache03:33
jaemmoo__, agreed, but cell carriers are all about squeezing money out of you03:33
crashanddie_mbpis that an excuse?03:33
Anpri feel sad.. i do not know many things about proxies and this kind of stuff.. was sleeping at my time...03:34
moo__jaem: for example in Finland it is forbidden for the carrier to poke the traffic any way03:34
jaemmoo__, and good for Finland03:34
moo__otherwise they are messing with private communication03:34
kynkymoo__, well the contract with vodafone expliticly excludes skype/sip on their free unlimited dataplan which has a 500mb limit /per month , they can legally do it, although morally i guess your arguing against it03:34
Anprsomebody suggested me trying SIP03:34
Anproh.. so they exclude and sip..03:34
moo__kynky: what's the legal basis? they mention in the contract "we can block any traffic we wish?"03:34
DocScrutinizer51what??? 500MB/month? lol03:35
SpeedEvilmoo__: pretty much03:35
kynkyAnpr, they say they do, doesnt mean they enforce it, try it, if it works fine03:35
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kynkymoo__, what SpeedEvil said03:35
SpeedEvilkynky: 'and any breach of these conditions means you pay at the stanard rate of 0.73p/MB'03:35
Anpryeah, will have to03:35
kynkyi read contract03:35
kynkyAnpr, if it is bocked create a free vpn on your home omputer03:36
kynkythey cant bloc the vpn03:36
ShadowJKlol, n900 cellmo antenna assembly costs half of what the battery cover costs03:36
kynkyand use skype through that03:36
Anprkynky *sad face* i wish i knew that's vpn...03:36
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Is there a publically available store of parts?03:36
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, oh I just found it on one of the phone acessories sites03:36
jaemAnpr, "Virtual Private Network"03:37
Anprhmm, i see now :)03:37
SpeedEvilShadowJK: linky?03:37
kynkyvpn = virtual private network, essentially your phone logs into your compuer and your computer does the skype call, but its all invisible, its like you doing it from phone03:37
jaemthe effect of connecting to a VPN is that your device appears to be on the LAN where the VPN server is running (e.g. your office or homw)03:37
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: how much's the touchpanel ?03:37
jaemand it's encrypted03:37
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, 55€03:37
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jaemso all the carrier will see is a bunch of encrypted data going out, and thus they can't tell what it is03:37
jaemand can't block it based on content03:38
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ShadowJKnot much help outside of .fi I guess03:38
kynkyif they did, you can do them for it :)03:38
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jaemAnpr, useful any time you're on an untrusted connection03:38
Anprone day i will have to try it :)03:38
jaemall your traffic gets routed through a connection you do trust03:38
SpeedEvilOh no, it's encrypted, all the letters are jumbled :)03:39
kynkyif you didd internet shopping, you would use the vpn03:39
jaemthere are simpler ways to tunnel your traffic, although a VPN is the best for many cases03:39
jaemSpeedEvil, aslfsdhfsduofishnweoulnvosi uwe?03:39
jaemoh, sorry03:39
jaemI said, "is that so?"03:39
jaemit's a bit more than jumbled, technically03:39
SpeedEvilThe stylus is 7 euro!03:39
* SpeedEvil sighs.03:40
kynkythree mobile payg do 2gb/month for 5pounds with no restriction on skype/sip btw03:40
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* jaem sighs03:40
jaemone more exam03:40
jaemno textbook03:40
cpscotti7€ the stylus!! I knew it! lol!03:40
jaemwhich means I'll be studying from wikipedia03:40
DocScrutinizer51wtf?? 7bucks for that plastic ttothpick03:40
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SpeedEvilkynky: t-mobile is awesome ATM - if you can live with 1G/mo - 6 months for 20 quid03:40
* kynky note to self - edit wikipedia03:41
jaemwhy they offer a course with a textbook that half the class can't afford, and that isn't available in a library in the whole darn province, I really don't know03:41
Anpri like this t-mobile plan03:41
jaemnot to mention the prof doesn't even have a copy03:41
jaemkynky, aw, then I'll have to download it again03:41
cpscottiThat website totally proves how technology doesn't relate AT all to the product!03:41
kynkySpeedEvil, tmobile uk is good for the fact if you go over data limit, they dont charge you, like every1 else does, but they block skype/sip unless you get the expensive package , well contract says that03:42
DocScrutinizer51like that03:42
luke-jrSpeedEvil: seriously? Link03:42
SpeedEvilkynky: the plan I'm on has no detailed TOS oddly03:42
kynkySpeedEvil, it takes ages ofdrilling down to gt tos03:42
kynkyi went through , orange/o2/tmobile/vodafone03:43
luke-jrToS have no legal force anyhow03:43
luke-jrunless they make you read it before getting service03:43
SpeedEvilclick 'internet boosters'03:43
kynkyafter my vodafone contract runs out in march will prob get three mobile, if not then orange03:44
DocScrutinizer51type of service?? o.O03:44
SpeedEvil6-month internet Plus Booster03:44
SpeedEvilTerms Of Service03:44
luke-jrSpeedEvil: oh, UK only? :(03:44
SpeedEvilluke-jr: oops - sorry03:44
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: I thought you were in the UK for some reason03:45
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kynkycontract details will be same as for normal payg internet stuff03:45
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Anprkynky so in your point of view there is just "3" who does not block skype/sip ?03:45
kynkyAnpr, for normal internet data plans three are the only ones who publicly say they dont block, the others say they do, but doesnt mean they actually do03:47
DocScrutinizer51declaring it's not allowed doesn't mean the block03:47
kynkyDocScrutinizer, exactly03:47
jaemAnpr, isn't 3 the carrier that was proxying images through a GIF converter so they could claim their internet was faster?03:47
jaemor was that someone else?03:47
Anprjaem no idea actually03:48
SpeedEviljaem: voda was doing something like that03:48
jaemhmm... whoever it was, that's evil03:48
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Anpr5 quid for 2gb/mo03:48
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kynkyanpr yep03:48
Anprit's not so bad, actually03:48
jaemthe example I saw showed a low-palette comic strip side-by-side comparison, and even for an image like that the compression was disgusting03:48
Anprif it's free and open to make skype calls, fair enough for me03:49
kynkybut if you go over limit, its expensive03:49
kynkybut same for every1 else except tmobile03:49
jaemAnpr, may I ask why you need to make Skype calls over 3G?  Do you need to make lots of long-distance/international calls on the go?03:49
DocScrutinizer51jaem: afaik you always can disable that03:49
Anprbut it is payg, isn't it ? so if you do not have any balance i think they can not charge you, you just should won't be able to use connection03:49
jaemif not, I don't see why you can't use wifi03:49
Anpror am i wrong ?03:49
kynkyAnpr, think so03:50
jaemAnpr, I think you're right, but pay-as-you-go data is probably a rip-off03:50
Anprjaem i can, ofcause03:50
kynky2gb/month on payg for 5pounds is cheap, its cheaper than any contract deal03:50
kynkyif not show me cheaper in uk03:51
jaemAnpr, just wondering, because I can't see Skype local minutes over a data connection being cheaper than air time03:51
jaemmaybe I'm wrong03:51
ShadowJKI think one of the UK carriers have different APNs for internet, one that modifies content and makes it smaller and one that doesn't03:51
Anpri just wonder how does it feel e.g walk in the city and talk through skype03:51
DocScrutinizer51jaem: I got payg 5GB for 25€03:51
* ShadowJK doesn't remember which one03:51
kynkyskype to skype is free03:51
jaemAnpr, yeah, looking at the dialer for the first time and seeing a "call from" button was a bit of a Wow moment for me03:52
jaemit looks seamless, and that's how I like it03:52
jaemis there any way you can disable 3G data completely while still using the N900 as a phone?03:52
kynkygoogle voice seems nice03:52
DocScrutinizer51jaem: alas that button's missing when calling a contact03:52
kynkyjaem, yep03:53
jaemDocScrutinizer, how are you initiating the call?03:53
jaemkynky, how?03:53
Anpri'll have to go 3 shop03:53
Anprand ask them03:53
DocScrutinizer51jaem: hit the number in contacts?03:53
jaemit may be a moot point given that I can't actually afford one any time soon, but my student budget won't cover cell data, and I wouldn't want to get overages03:53
kynkyclick on connections and disconnect 3g, and make sure in settings it not automatically connect via 3g03:53
jaemDocScrutinizer, oh, yeah, but in the contacts you can just hit the SkypeOut button instead03:54
Anprjaem i am about skype to skype03:54
Anprthey are free :)03:54
DocScrutinizer51I'm talking bout SIP03:54
jaemkynky, ah, okay.  That should work, although I was kind of hoping there was method that couldn't accidentally turned on03:54
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jaemAnpr, I see, that makes sense03:55
kynkywell you only need to disconnect 3g if it already connected03:55
microlithdevice was fine up until 10 minutes ago, rebooted twice since :/03:55
jaempersonally, I wish Rogers had a data option in between the legacy 3MB plan and the current 500MB plan03:55
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Anprso the best way, if i can't get connected to wifi03:55
jaembecause I can't afford to use the N900 as an internet tablet, but having just a bit of data for SSH would be killer for me03:56
Anpris get a three payg03:56
Anpras i can see, for now..03:56
DocScrutinizer51microlith: filled / ?03:56
jaembut 3MB is obviously far too small, and 500MB is more than I need, or can afford03:56
* jaem will be back later03:56
microlithDocScrutinizer51: 66.7MB free03:57
kynkyAnpr, well assuming vodafone def doesnot work with skype (you wil have to try)03:57
DocScrutinizer51microlith: *after* reboot yeah03:58
microlithdoes something empty it on reboot?03:58
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DocScrutinizer51microlith: reboot freeing up amazing amounts of /03:58
microlithwhat's using it?03:58
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kynkyyep it does03:58
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kynkylogs are in ram03:59
DocScrutinizer51microlith: nobody found out yet. ask SpeedEvil03:59
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: any comments?04:00
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Klownershould be gettin' my second n900 tomorrow, unless fedex acts like drunken hobos again04:10
DocScrutinizer51Klowner: gettin greedy? ;-P04:11
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b-man17~stab Klowner04:13
* infobot runs at Klowner with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut.04:13
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GAN900Klowner, hey, same here!04:20
GAN900Though from DHL04:20
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DocScrutinizer51darn. guys what,s wrong with you? do you need a device for each hand? XD04:22
GAN900Loaner + DDP04:22
jaemDocScrutinizer, yes, don't you?04:23
jaemdual-wielding Linux power04:23
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DocScrutinizer-8nah, I'm fine with a zoo of different devices ;-P04:24
DocScrutinizer51and don't get me started or I'll activate my army of freerunners XD04:26
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* Klowner slowlys bleeds to death from the papercut04:32
luke-jrI want an AR headset that "materializes" handhelds on demand04:32
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Klownerfingers crossed this second one has a functional microphone04:32
luke-jrincluding full 21" displays <.<04:32
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Klownerhandhelds and wimminfolk04:33
AakashPatelwhen i plug my phone into my Samsung TV04:34
AakashPatelits black and white04:34
AakashPateland doesnt stretch across the screen04:34
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DocScrutinizer51AakashPatel: adjust pal/ntsc setting04:35
AakashPatelI did04:35
AakashPatelits on NTSC04:35
AakashPateland im in the US04:35
Klownersure it's a composite port?04:36
AakashPatelAnd i *think* this tv is NTSC (havent ever plugged anything into the av ports04:36
DocScrutinizer51never twice same color04:36
DocScrutinizer51yep. works great here on PAL04:36
AakashPatelerm feck04:37
AakashPatelwrong window04:37
KlownerAakashPatel: you're not plugging it into component video plugs or anything?04:37
AakashPatelhm lemme check again04:37
Klownerthe plug should likely be yellow04:37
KlownerI think..04:38
AakashPatelall the ports that look like the right ports04:38
AakashPatelsay COMPONENT04:38
AakashPatelComposite (AV)04:39
AakashPatel1 (back shared with component)04:39
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AakashPatelshared with component, yeah i used that one04:39
DocScrutinizer51set up TV correctly04:39
Klownershould be Composite04:39
AakashPatelI think when i selected input i did component04:39
AakashPatellemme try now haha04:40
Klowneryellow=video, red=right audio, white=left audio04:40
AakashPatelyeah it worked04:41
AakashPatelKlowner: on my tv the component and composite are the same ports04:41
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AakashPateli selected Component intstead of AV last time by accident04:42
AakashPatelSamsung ftw :|04:43
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DocScrutinizer51don't ask abbout LG's extraordinarily firmware04:44
AakashPatelBut i do have to say, this tv is the best picture evar04:44
AakashPatelEven cnet says :004:44
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AakashPatelDocScrutinizer51: haha04:44
AakashPatelwhats the normal contrast ratio on HDTV's?04:45
AakashPatel150000:1 o.O04:46
GAN900Contrast ratio is a meaningless number.04:46
DocScrutinizer51who cares? as long as the picture is goodlookin04:46
AakashPateloh man04:46
GAN900Pure marketing.04:46
AakashPatelno really04:46
DocScrutinizer51GAN900: exactly04:46
AakashPatelthis tv says 7MIllion:104:46
AakashPatelThe blacks are truely solid black04:47
ifreqled tv's are great. need to buy one @future too04:47
AakashPatelthe led backlights turn off04:47
GAN900There's nothing governing how the contrast ratio is measured.04:47
GAN900Often it's dynamic.04:47
ifreqyeh contrast ratio is one value you dont read from tv tech specs *g*04:47
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AakashPateleh, all i can tell you is this is truly the blackest black you can have ;)04:47
DocScrutinizer51inter picture contrast. one with backlit off. MUHAHA04:47
DocScrutinizer51only thing that counts is dynamic intrapict contrast04:48
AakashPatelshh and just get that LED TV i accidently posted04:48
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AakashPatelthats intrapictasthtk for ya04:49
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ifreqmayb when prices drop down a bit. or not the 55" version.04:51
ifreqdoes any else manufacturer than samsung do led tv's yet?04:52
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DocScrutinizer51there's lots of them. white LED side backlight. white full area backlight. RGB both flavours. full araea with dynamic controlled brightness in sub sections04:54
AakashPatelIs anybody elese phone complaining about ovi not logging in04:54
AakashPatelits getting annoying04:54
AakashPatelthe warning lol04:54
oilinkiis it possible to sync n810/n900 data with ovi nowdays?04:55
AakashPatelNETWERK ERRAR04:56
AakashPatelokay maemo, i know there is one, thanks for warning me 10 times04:57
DocScrutinizer51eeeek the gremlins04:57
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AakashPatelHm whats the point of having the Ovi Account in the accounts thing?04:58
AakashPatelI dont think there is one :|04:58
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* AakashPatel deletes it04:59
AakashPatelooo nice "enable" checkbox04:59
* AakashPatel unmarks it04:59
DocScrutinizer51ooooh. no more sharing pics on ovishare05:00
ifreqhmm is ovi account useful to have?05:00
DocScrutinizer51not really (yet) _ mho05:00
ifreqthen i wont waste time on register05:01
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AakashPatelyeah lol dont do it yet05:02
AakashPatelSomeone get a date from nokia on when the ovi store is gonna be live05:03
AakashPatelI cant submit this 50 dolla rebate till then D:05:03
DocScrutinizer51actually I did but can't see a particular attractivity in it05:03
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DocScrutinizer51(register with ovi)05:04
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ShadowJKhm, xchat on desktop (fedora) does far less wakeups than xchat on n900 :/05:34
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DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: wakeups?05:36
AakashPatelShadowJK: Xchat on the n900 blows05:36
DocScrutinizer51AakashPatel: ???05:36
AakashPatelit could be way better05:37
AakashPateland if you save a setting it always crashes lol05:37
DocScrutinizer51known issue05:37
AakashPatelI wish it would blink the light if you got pinged05:37
DocScrutinizer51edit ~/.xchat2/*05:37
ShadowJKinstead of doing select/poll and waiting for something to happen, it's calling it with a small timeout, looping05:38
jebbafinally hacked up a way to include a custom kernel config in debian/ dir and have it propigate...  The debian/rules file in the kernel isn't set up for a patches/ directory or anything...05:38
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: what's a 'wakeup'?05:38
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jebbaShadowJK: same versions on f12 and n900 fwiw05:39
jebbait's saying "go do something and stop sleeping you lazy cpu"05:39
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ShadowJKdoc: when app goes from sleep to run05:41
DocScrutinizer51hmm it's probably sending pings or sth. Or polls user states05:41
ShadowJKlagmeter and away tracking switched off05:41
ShadowJKthose wouldn't need multiple wakeups per second anyway05:41
ShadowJKand on fedora I have lagmeter on, and it's not doing the periodical wakeup05:42
DocScrutinizer51what? multiple per second? wtf?05:42
jebbaShadowJK: i just looked at F12 patches and i dont really see anything that would have to do with wakeups, so i dont think the difference is in xchat itself (?).   It did have a patchlet for the config file though, so maybe that would keep it from crashing (just a guess there)05:43
DocScrutinizer51jebba: source patch?05:44
ShadowJK12 per sec05:44
jebbaya, source patch05:44
DocScrutinizer51what's it tackling?05:44
ShadowJKwanna look at how much fremantle xchat is patched?05:45
DocScrutinizer51another u/l case issue? ;-P05:45
jebba  DocScrutinizer51  patch05:45
pwnguinhuh. the media player supports upnp?05:45
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luke-jrI DID IT05:46
luke-jrI booted Maemo on my N810 with the battery connected only via paperclips held in place by gravity05:46
luke-jrhopefully now I can get at that serial port05:46
jaemthis will not end well05:46
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luke-jrmake that past tense05:48
DocScrutinizer51jebba: looks sensible. Also I noticed a few non printable chars in default cxchat.cfg05:48
luke-jrWifi died, so I lifted it to peek... and a paperclip shifted :(05:48
KahnAuany aussies floating around?05:48
luke-jrhow the heck do other people use the serial header thing? :/05:49
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DocScrutinizer51nobody does :-P05:50
DocScrutinizer51excpt fab05:50
DocScrutinizer51and they have a jigmount05:50
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: any recommendations on how to debug Linux boot then?05:50
luke-jrcan kernel messages get sent over USB or something? :/05:50
KahnAudoubt it05:52
ShadowJKthere's a netconsole thing, but it's not much use if kernel dies before userspace05:52
ifreqhmm truu05:53
DocScrutinizer51maybe a professionell version of paperclips would help a lot ;-P05:54
ShadowJKneed more ducttaoe05:55
DocScrutinizer51yeah. and hotglue05:56
Macerso. anybody get android running on the n900 yet?05:56
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* DocScrutinizer51 coughs05:57
KahnAulooks kinda handy :P05:57
AakashPatelis there open office or maemo?05:59
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Macerof course there isn't going ot be openoffice. :P05:59
AakashPatelWhy not :P05:59
Macerit's too much of a java memory whore06:00
AakashPatelwhere is taht06:00
* AakashPatel wants06:00
Sho_AakashPatel: There's an office viewer app from Nokia based on KOffice.06:00
Macerthe question should be "is there anything that can use odts"06:00
Termanalies. openoffice works without java06:00
MacerTermana: well. last i saw it required java. never saw a ver with native bins unless they decided to take that route06:00
MacerTermana: either way it is a mem whore06:00
derfIf they can get OOo on OLPC, they can get it on the N900.06:01
jaem"I would not otherwise even know where to begin to hack that thing. I’m not the geek around here I mainly just hurt people."06:01
Macerone lap per child?06:01
TermanaMacer - i agree its a memory whore however ubuntu doesn't come with java by default but it does come with openoffice06:01
jaem^ comment on Hack a Day06:01
MacerTermana: hm.06:01
MacerTermana: i always figured ubuntu came with blackdown or something06:01
AakashPatelSho_: i want to edit ;)06:02
Sho_AakashPatel: That's probably coming, too06:03
AakashPatelSo is a 20GHz phone06:03
Sho_Nokia is working together with the KOffice team.06:03
AakashPatelSho_: What's it called?06:03
AakashPatelThat Docs to Go shit?06:03
luke-jrjust use HTML, n00bs06:04
AakashPatelThats proprietary o.O06:04
AakashPatelluke-jr: docs to go06:04
Sho_Documents to Go is by DataViz, that's something else06:04
Sho_Seems right now it's just called "Office Viewer"06:04
AakashPatelin the extras repo06:05
TermanaMacer - you could be right, however in my default install i couldn't use java applets, but that might not be implemented in icedtea or blackdown06:05
Sho_not sure, sorry (I don't have a device yet myself)06:05
AakashPatelWell, im out for the night06:05
AakashPatelSho_: thanks for the info06:05
AakashPatelnight all06:06
Sho_you're welcome, sleep tight06:06
AakashPatelSho_: oh and btw its not in extras ;)06:06
Termanagood night AakashPatel06:06
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MacerTermana: i'm just saying. sun "owns" openoffice06:08
Macerthey still try to promote java06:08
Maceralthough as a cross platform universal development tool.. i think it has failed06:09
Macerbut don't quote me on that :)06:09
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Termanaeither way its probably not great for our devices. which is i guess why everyone is waiting for koffice06:10
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jebbacool 0xFFFF free software flasher has new code in it for n900  :)=06:11
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luke-jrMacer: Sun no longer exists06:18
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Termanaluke-jr: Sun and Oracle haven't merged yet have they?06:23
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luke-jrTermana: no? wasn't that announced months ago?06:26
luke-jrif not a year by now06:26
jebbaTermana: is troll /ignor06:27
Termanayeah earlier this year, but i thought there was some trouble with the merger06:27
Termanajebba: how am i a troll? :P06:27
jebbaTermana: haha not you, luke-jr  sry ;)06:27
jebbaallllllllllllll the time06:27
Termanaoh ok :P lol06:28
luke-jrjebba: if anyone is trolling right now, it's you06:28
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jebbaon another note, the garage buildserver is up and running again  :)06:29
jaemwhere'd the find a new 770 to host it on?06:31
infobotjaem meant: where'd they find a new 770 to host it on?06:31
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jebba     built claws in around 20-25 minutes each, so not so bad06:31
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Vrathaluke-jr: that wasn't announced anywhere near a year ago.  i think you're thinking more like 5 mos. maybe06:34
VrathaTermana: yeah, the EU didn't approve the merger06:35
Vrathadon't know what happened after that06:35
luke-jrwhy would the EU need to approve anything? O.o06:35
luke-jrare either Sun or Oracle actually in the EU at all?06:35
Vrathabecause if you're an international company and plan to do business in a very large area of your clientele, you need to obey local regulations06:35
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pwnguinrandom question: audio/x-ms-wma support?06:38
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Macerluke-jr: was oracle allowed to purchase?06:52
Macerheh. sun will always exist :) just how linksys still does with a cisco stamp on it to make it look like their crappy made in china wifi routers are of higher quality06:52
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* KahnAu hugs his linksys/cisco gear06:55
KahnAui've only had one device actually fail in hardware06:55
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TermanaKahnAu, its against the rules to talk below the belt06:56
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pwnguin^ any suggestions for improvement?07:09
* DocScrutinizer51 stares at bait. yawns07:11
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pwnguini cant seem to get banshee to recognize the files it copied; not sure to blame HAL, banshee or the phone07:12
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jebbaahhahahhah.    I have the kernel booting up and displaying the standard kernel loading foo on the console on boot  :)07:14
jebbarebuilt kernel.debs07:14
nezbmeh, I don't feel like compiling anything right now it's 12am07:15
jebbaLinux Nokia-N900-42-11 2.6.28-jebba4 #1 PREEMPT Sun Dec 13 22:33:13 MST 2009 armv7l unknown07:15
DocScrutinizer51jebba: you  never sleep?07:15
jebbai'll put them in my repo in a minute.07:15
jebbafuck ya.07:15
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ifreqwasnt there fb_update_mode in past maemo devices instead of recompiling whole kernel for fb?07:22
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nezbanyone want google wave invites?07:30
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pwnguinwhere all does canola look for playlists?07:32
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jebbaifreq: no idea about past07:35
pwnguinactually, lets start with something more basic: what's the name of the media player that comes with the n900?07:37
nezbMedia Player07:37
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DocScrutinizer51hehe' so now *that* is what 8 expect from xchat on relogin :-))07:41
jebba  :)07:41
nezbwhat does your custom kernel do>?07:42
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DocScrutinizer51load -e <fqn-of-scriptie> really is a useful thing07:42
ifreqnezb: installs backdoor ofcoors07:43
ifreqfor worldwide 1st n900 botnet07:43
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nezbI mean besides the rootkit07:43
DocScrutinizer51too late ;-P07:43
nezbis the botnet code open source?07:43
ifreqnezb: ofcourse07:43
ifreqnezb: jebbas kernel enables framebuffer07:44
nezbthat's it?07:44
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DocScrutinizer51bluepill is hidden in the closed blobs of maemo07:45
nezbisn't Blue Pill mode a good thing?07:46
DocScrutinizer51nezb: no source, sorry ;-P07:46
nezbdamn proprietary botnets... I need an open source one before I donate07:46
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jebbanezb: ifreq, source code all there too. ;)   not too much different...07:49
jebbanezb: ya, pretty much just it for now.  But i had to get a whole procedure down for modifying the .config and getting it to build a proper .deb etc.07:50
jebbanow that that's done, it's easy to enable/disable whatever or make modules for people or whatever...07:50
nezbthat's good. was it difficult?07:50
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jebbayes, PITA, cuz the rules that come with it don't have any patching stuff in it. Like you can't just put in debian/patches/ and have it go, for instance.  I also had to ramp myself up on making .debs, cuz i've only made a few before.  This is quite clean though.  :)   I'll write up more how it was all done. Plus the different kernel scratchbox (with now ncurses-dev etc) makes it a bit of a headache.07:52
jebbaBut now it's easy. In the end i only had to change a few lines ;)07:52
nezbthat's nice07:52
jebbai have a script so i can just copy over any .config, run the script, have new kernel .debs. Done.07:53
jebbaprobably going to try 2.6.32-omap1 tomorrow.07:53
jebbais quite cool to see the fone boot too ;)07:54
nezbdoes it say anything cool?07:54
nezblike "Starting secret Nokia spy utility.... [done]"?07:54
jebbahah. havent even paid much attention yet! to what it says.   will check it out some more.07:55
Vrathawhen connecting your n900 to your Mac and going into "PC Suite Mode", do you find it generally tries to create new network interfaces?07:56
Vrathai don't understand why it doesn't just reuse one it already used07:56
nezbevery freaking time07:56
nezbI think its a mac os x problem?07:56
Vrathanezb: okay, i'm glad i'm not the only one experiencing that frustration07:56
Vrathanezb: could be07:56
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Vrathai was hoping someone here knew how to either tell the mac to reuse an old interface or how to configure the n900 to use an existing interface07:57
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jebbaso in the builder if you submit a package that is a dep of your next package, how long does it take before it knows that first dep is there?07:59
Vrathajebba: it just has to search the dpkg database to know07:59
Vrathaso however long that takes, which isn't too long07:59
jebbaok.  for some reason it showed my flatzebra_0.1.3-2, being built, but then built the other one first.08:00
jebbaperhaps they were on different boxes and the second one just got put on a faster box.08:01
DocScrutinizer51probably an issue with arandomly generated MAC address08:01
jebbahow do I trigger it again, just uplaod the .dsc again?  Vratha08:01
ali1234Vratha: yes, check the mac address of the new interface matches the mac of the old one08:01
nezbthe MAC addy is different each time?08:02
* DocScrutinizer51 seems to remeber same issue for freerunner cdc_ether08:02
nezbit doesn't happen with the modem iface, only the usbnet iface08:02
ali1234you can specify the mac to be used in a module param (n900 side) and if maemo isn't doing that it should be08:03
ali1234the modem interface doesn't have a mac08:03
DocScrutinizer51ali1234: exactly08:03
nezbwell that explains the situation08:03
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ali1234exactly what?08:03
* jebba just uploading the whole thing again since dep is there.08:04
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DocScrutinizer51if no addr specified it will guess a unique one08:04
Vrathaali1234: oh, good info.  do you know which module that would be?08:04
jebbaso should i upload my kernel to extras-devel? hhaha08:04
ali1234Vratha: g_ether08:04
ali1234Vratha: and it has *two* macs, one for the n900 and one given to whatever you connect it to08:04
Vrathaali1234: thanks; i'll try doing some googlign on it08:05
ali1234DocScrutinizer51: serial ports (cdc_acm) don't have mac addresses08:05
DocScrutinizer51ali1234: ack08:06
ali1234what it could be is they use the n900 mac for the local side of g_ether and the remote side then gets a random mac08:06
jebbaso how long after they are built before they are live in extras-devel repo itself? ready for apt-gettedness?08:06
jebbahmm, actually the dependency built and is there in  but the next program i uploaded didn't install it for a dep. So there's some lag somewhere.08:08
johnsu01anyone know offhand if there is a way to make the toolbar at the bottom of the fremantle xterm disappear?08:09
johnsu01it's covering up one of my nethack status lines :)08:10
ali1234Vratha: ok had a look, it uses g_nokia not g_ether (presumably so it can do serial and eth at the same time) and the dev_addr and host_addr params are null08:11
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ali1234which means if it is based on g_ether it will pick random addresses, although it doesn't actually seem to do that on a simple unplug/replug08:11
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RST38hX-Fade: Around?08:12
ali1234but that could be because the module isn't getting unloaded08:12
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: seems that's the only thing that needs to stay. Ther's obviously no way you would get it back once it vanished08:12
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johnsu01DocScrutinizer51: personally I don't need it back :)08:13
ali1234Vratha: if i switch to mass storage and back i do indeed get a new random mac08:14
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DocScrutinizer51ali1234: what I said08:15
jaemwhat would be the best category to file a low-level rfcomm (BlueZ) bug in?08:16
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: you never need ESC? or switching fullscreen mode?08:16
jaemspecifically, it's relating to the serial connection dropping during read08:16
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Vrathaali1234: yeah, i had figured out it was g_nokia on some web page.  i still haven't found a config file or the params i can send to the module though08:17
ali1234Vratha: in /etc/modprobe.d make a file called "g_nokia" with contents "options host_addr=<some mac address>"08:17
johnsu01DocScrutinizer51: well, not for many uses of a terminal. If I need those things I a new terminal.08:17
johnsu01but really I'm just asking if there is a keyboard toggle for it08:18
johnsu01because I would often like to have that space for display08:18
ali1234Vratha: (testing that now)08:18
Vrathaali1234: thanks.  i'll test it out.08:18
ali1234Vratha: should be: options g_nokia host_addr=00:11:22:33:44:5508:19
ali1234it *might* be possible to use reuse the wifi mac for this purpose - there's certainly a lot of other linux devices that do that. but it might not sit well with fremantle08:19
Vrathaali1234: how did you know it supports host_addr?  just by looking in a kernel config one time or something?08:19
ali1234Vratha: in /sys/modules/g_nokia/parameter08:20
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: actually you can't (except via cmdline or tricky fingeracrobatics). your dashboard icon vanished when you set fullscreen mode. and to end fullscreen you miss the icon in the toolbar08:20
Vrathawhoa... that must be new since the last time i seriously used linux since my move to OS X08:20
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johnsu01DocScrutinizer51: I understand, I'm asking if there is a keyboard shortcut to toggle it08:21
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Vrathawow, sweet.  i didn't realize a /sys directory was even mounted08:21
Vrathafreaking nice08:21
ali1234Vratha: if you think that's cool look at the usb debug interface in /sys/kernel/debug - you can see all usb traffic, and wireshark has a gui. very useful when combined with virtualbox for reversing windows usb drivers08:21
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: ther's no such things like shortcuts in a shell08:21
DocScrutinizer51except the shell defined ones08:22
johnsu01DocScrutinizer51: it's not a shell shortcut, it would be a window manager shortcut...08:22
johnsu01or the xterm's shortcut08:22
DocScrutinizer51see ctrl-c for copy08:22
johnsu01why are you acting like this is crazy? urxvt, gnome-terminal, etc, all have keyboard shortcuts08:22
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DocScrutinizer51shell takes full control over console input08:23
Vrathaali1234: i might check that out some day i'm screwing around with something on usb that doesn't work :)08:23
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RST38hAh, here!08:25
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: actually xterm could intercept I guess08:26
RST38htekojo: Good morning! Can you catch someone who has control over extras-devel and ask him to figure out why the new fbreader package is not there yet? =)08:26
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tekojoRST38h I can take a look X-Fade will be here at some point, he will know08:27
RST38h[2009-12-13 23:18:31] fbreader 0.10.7-4 has been queued for loading into fremantle extras-devel repository08:27
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RST38hThis is the last I have got from the autobuilder08:27
DocScrutinizer51johnsu01: anyway shell *expects* to get all unfiltered keypress events08:27
RST38hWhole log here:
jaemali1234 (re usb snooping), any links to info about that off the top of your head (don't bother Googling it - I can do that)08:27
ali1234jaem: what exactly are you trying to do?08:28
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ali1234jaem: not related to snooping exactly but a very good guide to how usb works is:
jaemnothing in particular now, but I'd been vaguely curious about how that worked08:29
jaem(comp. eng student, you see)08:29
jaemawesome, thanks!08:29
ali1234if you read that ^ you'll see usb is all about packets08:29
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Vrathaali1234: your info was fantastic.  i just reused the eth_addr that the device randomly used last time.  figured that was a fairly safe bet08:29
jaemmmmm... packets :)08:29
ali1234and the usbmon debug thingy just dumps the packets in hex :)08:29
ali1234then you can look at the packet types and decode it08:30
* jaem will take a look at it later08:30
ali1234Vratha: i just tried it and it works here, but now i get eth3 instead of usb0 - but that could be due to it "recognising" the 00:11:... mac, which i've probably used like this before08:31
DocScrutinizer51Vratha: maybe you find Nokia declared a macaddr range they like to see for their devices08:32
DocScrutinizer51Vratha: in the end it most likely doesn't matter08:32
ali1234jaem: also lsusb -vv will show you a *lot* of info about endpoints and stuff (which are also explained in that guide)08:32
tekojoRST38h sorry, I don't have enough rights to look deeper, ping X-Fade08:32
jaemyes, I think I've done that before08:32
* DocScrutinizer51 isn't even aware of -w... just seems to remeber -a08:33
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RST38htekojo: both he and jeremiah are pretty dead at the moment. ok, will try later08:35
DocScrutinizer51well as long as I know --help and it's not friggin crappybox ;-D08:35
tekojoRST38h, reeeally early morning for them right now :-)08:35
Proteousnever, never do -vvv though, the flood protection of your console will change the root password on  you08:35
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RST38hguess so...08:36
* plr_ is at qt dev days, awesome to see so many n900's :)08:36
DocScrutinizer51aah' -v -v08:36
jaemLOL... the Bluetooth SIG's official HFP spec document uses MS Office '97 clipart >_<08:37
jaemthat's actually kind of terrible08:38
RST38hwhy isn't this surprising?08:38
jaemI remember using that red car in elementary school for an assignment08:38
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jshupeHey, I have a quick question for someone on AT&T.08:39
RST38hjaem: you are young then =)08:39
RST38hwe had to draw our own cars on paper =)08:39
jshupeI understand that the N900 will not be able to use AT&T's 3G network- but will it be able to use their EDGE network?08:39
* DocScrutinizer51 ponders watching his 7€ toothpick08:39
jaemRST38h, well, I'm a few yeas into university, but relatively, yes08:39
RST38hok, so libraries go into libs...08:40
DocScrutinizer51ponders *while08:40
jaemRST38h, what is this "paper" you speak of?  Is it like e-Ink? ;)08:40
johnxjshupe, yes08:40
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jshupejohnx: thanks, that was my understanding/ assumption but I just wanted to verify08:40
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jshupei ordered one yesterday and am waiting on it to come in to replace my [broken] iphone08:41
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DocScrutinizer51jshupe: iPhone makes for a nice cigarette box08:42
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jshupeDocScrutinizer51: not when it's in the trash.08:42
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DocScrutinizer51lol. you stopped smoking?08:43
jshupeyep, and celebrated by throwing my iPhone into the concrete.08:44
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jshupework in the morning; g'night room.08:44
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tigerthouston, we have winter08:45
jaemtigert, we had winter here first XP08:46
tigertEFHF 140620Z 05005KT 340V110 9999 SCT029 BKN045 M12/M15 Q102808:46
tigert-12C aint much here but it still feels cold after months of zero08:46
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* ShadowJK should get a fire going08:55
Vrathait's 46F here08:55
Vrathaand i'm happy about that, because it was recently 20F08:55
Vrathaand i'm a pansy in really cold weather08:56
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adeussure was a nice bike ride to work09:08
PolarFoxThat would have been madness...09:11
adeusas in bicycle09:12
PolarFoxYeah, as in madness.. It's like -14C out there..09:13
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adeuswas when I left home09:13
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wazdmornin' maemo09:16
Xisdibikevening wazd09:16
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KahnAuyou guys are insane09:18
* KahnAu only rides in 24c rain09:18
tekojoIt's never too cold, you only have the wrong clothes on.09:18
Stskeepsthe scandinavian attitude09:19
Xisdibiktekojo: i agree,  its much easier to add another layer if your cold,   much harder to remove layers in hot weather ;)09:19
KahnAumaximum clothing = nicks and jersey anything more is asking for heat stroke :P09:19
johnxheh, I wore a t-shirt and shorts to work all summer here. The thermostat in our office is worse than useless09:20
wazdwow, looks like Eldar didn't expect that I will find out his dirty lie :D09:20
XisdibikI occasionally wear a sweatshirt when i go out, if im coming at night, when it deeps down towards like 3-5C09:20
Xisdibikdeeps = dips09:21
Xisdibiklike = to like09:21
* Xisdibik is sleepy09:21
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johnxwazd, alright, I'll bite. What's the lie?09:22
* Xisdibik screen shots johnx biting09:22
johnxom nom nom09:23
* Xisdibik adds that to the screenshot09:23
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DocScrutinizer51Xisdibik: you have to be Canadian09:26
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wazdjohnx: he mentioned in twitter that he was never talking bout multiple maemo devices in 201009:26
wazdjohnx: but in summer he was talking right in my face bout whooping 16 devices ))09:26
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Stskeepswazd: could have had been the original plan but then economic crisis really struck?09:27
wazdjohnx: and when I told him bout it - he said that I'm a liar and waited for an hour for me to reply :D09:27
* Stskeeps speculates09:27
XisdibikDocScrutinizer: nope09:28
wazdStskeeps: maybe, but he said that anyway09:28
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Stskeepswazd: probably09:28
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ali1234luke-jr: "kernel low-level debugging" = serial headers (reply to ml post)09:30
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luke-jrali1234: meh, serial headers don't work09:30
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ali1234luke-jr: they should do if you enable DEBUG_LL09:30
luke-jrali1234: how did you access it?09:30
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ali1234luke-jr: i didn't, i'm not that guy09:30
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luke-jrali1234: I mean they physically are not usable09:31
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luke-jralso, can you confirm: under Maemo4 I should be able to put getty on or echo to /dev/ptyS1 ?09:31
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ali1234can't confirm it, no09:32
ali1234it's tty not pty - pty is something different. if that wasn't a typo09:32
luke-jryeah, it was a typo09:32
luke-jrknew something looked wrong, but couldn't figure out what ;)09:32
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ali1234the hardware i use has serial port shared with the usb port so it's a lot easier for me. just hack a usb cable and set some mux lines09:32
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DocScrutinizer51waaaah muxes09:33
ali1234i've never had a serial port on any NIT09:33
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DocScrutinizer51muxing console is a *really* *bad* idea09:34
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ali1234DocScrutinizer51: SoC pin multiplexing09:35
ali1234on omap850 the usb "pins" can also be serial or standard gpio, or some other things i forget09:35
DocScrutinizer51no matter how. we at OM seen lots of despair coming from muxing console tty in neo197309:36
ali1234so it's just a matter of cutting the end off a usb cable and connecting to the usual max232 level shifter09:36
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ali1234DocScrutinizer this is something completely different. in fact, no matter how you mux the pins, the serial port still works. it just isn't connected to the outside world.09:37
luke-jrali1234: is it? Neo1973 is OMAP 85009:37
ali1234no it isn't09:38
luke-jror at least close to that09:39
DocScrutinizer51neo1973 is based on samsung s3c241009:39
luke-jrit is? O.o09:39
* luke-jr wonders what it was he saw based on OMAP 85009:39
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ali1234lots of HTC phones that arn't based on MSM09:40
luke-jrmy bad09:40
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: btw, are you OpenMoko "proper" or just OpenMoko dev community? ;p09:40
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: if the former, will there be a new phone now that the lame wikireader is done?09:41
DocScrutinizer51ali1234: ok. you're actually *not* muxing the 7*45 registers then I suppose09:41
ShadowJKi  thought "proper" was sacked09:42
DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: 1) and No09:42
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: and ack09:42
ali1234DocScrutinizer it isn't really real multiplexing in the correct sense of the word, cos the pins only do 1 function at a time. just thatthe function is selectable through some registers09:42
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ShadowJKI'm not sure they'll get far with a lcd wikireader in this age of epaper, which is a shame really :/09:43
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ali1234same as you see on something like avr where a pin can be either i2c, or a gpio, depending on some reg09:43
DocScrutinizer51ali1234: on OM we had kernel deadlocks as the UART was blocked by another tty claiming same registers09:44
ali1234i dunno why they call it multiplexing, but there you go09:44
ali1234DocScrutinizer yeah that is MUCH higher level09:44
DocScrutinizer51ali1234: aiui you don't share UART between USB and tty function09:44
ali1234no, not at all09:44
ali1234they're totally different hardware blocks, and the reg just selects which one is connected to the physical pins of the SoC09:45
suihkulokkinot all serials are tty tho09:45
ali1234right, i'm just talking about omap850 :)09:45
ali1234and how it can do serial on the usb lines, thus making it easy to get DEBUG_LL from a production device09:46
DocScrutinizer51k. so scratch my comments09:46
ali1234comparitively easy anyway09:46
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DocScrutinizer51-tell luke-jr about DocScrutinizer09:57
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DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: and seems OM is completely out of phone business09:58
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: :(09:59
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DocScrutinizer51hi woglinde10:02
woglindejo doc10:03
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RST38hMoo all10:27
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johnxm00f RST38h10:28
RST38hjohnx: heya10:28
RST38hhow are things?10:28
johnxpretty good10:28
woglindemoo rst10:28
johnxlooks like I locked myself out of my remote server, while playing with LDAP PAM10:28
woglindehi johnx10:28
RST38hwoglinde: ehlo10:28
johnxallo woglinde10:28
woglindejohnx hahah10:28
woglindealways have a backup plan10:28
johnxanyone remember talk/talkd?10:28
woglindewhen playing with auth-stuff10:29
RST38hjohnx: Is it behind a drywall, cemented into a wall 15 years ago (I HOPE =))10:29
johnxwoglinde, I do. I can get a serial console10:29
woglindeah okay10:29
johnxso I can reboot with init=/bin/sh if necessary10:29
woglindeyeah talk is so outdated with irc and xmpp10:29
johnxin this case I just left a root shell open on an ssh accessible serial console10:29
johnxthe thing I like about talk is the realtime nature10:30
johnxdoesn't work for a whole group, but for two people it's fine10:30
woglindeirc is pretty realtime too10:30
woglindexmpp too10:30
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johnxerrr, the part where you can see what the other person is typing, as they type10:30
woglindewith all the corrections10:31
woglindeno thanks10:31
johnxworks for me10:31
johnxI don't make mistakes ever :)10:31
luke-jrjohnx: XMPP can do that, I think10:32
luke-jrthough I'm not sure any clients support it10:32
johnxit's ok10:32
johnxI'm installing a talkd on my server :)10:32
luke-jrzash: see what the other person is typing as they type it10:33
woglindejohnx and you dont have encryption10:33
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zashand that's useful and not distracting .. how?10:33
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johnxit's a personal preference thing I guess10:34
johnxwith two people (to me at least) it feels more like a conversation10:34
johnxwoglinde, so? ssh seems good enough to me...10:34
woglindehms maemo-sdk+ suckz sometimes10:35
woglindelibstdc++-dev: libstdc++-dev  can not be used from tools (installed, but not allowed)10:35
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DocScrutinizer51btw while talking about editing input away from real input line...10:36
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DocScrutinizer51is this a bug or a feature the virtual kbd doesn't take a CR as a CR. Rather it just paste the edited line to input field and you need to open it again to send the real CR10:38
johnxdepends on the app it seems10:39
DocScrutinizer51kinda odd. So od it has to be a feature10:39
johnxI would describe it as a "weirdness"10:39
johnxthat's a technical term up ^there^10:39
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DocScrutinizer51test on xchat with vkbd10:41
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DocScrutinizer51damn. here it works10:41
johnxworks in the browser too10:41
timeless_mbpjohnx: google wave :)10:41
DocScrutinizer51johnx: so ack. depends on app10:41
timeless_mbpand yes i remember talk10:41
* zash smacks timeless_mbp with a waveformed stick10:42
johnxwaiting for them to open up the beta of wave a bit. even if I got in, it's worthless without getting a good chunk of my normal contacts in there as well10:42
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DocScrutinizer51in friggin shell (err xterm) it fails10:42
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johnxyeah. I think the situation is that osso-xterm is doing something "clever"10:43
DocScrutinizer51-lart osso-xterm10:43
johnx~lart osso-xterm10:43
* infobot hereby declares osso-xterm a troll10:43
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johnxahaha. you got trolled my osso-xterm :)10:44
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timeless_mbpjohnx: *nod*10:46
timeless_mbpmy dad applied for the beta :)10:46
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timeless_mbp(i got an invite months ago)10:46
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johnxI wonder how quick an open ssh connection to my server with talk running would eat up the battery on my N900...10:48
timeless_mbpi'd assume it wouldn't be expensive unless there was a clock in the window or someone typing10:48
johnxI'll find out tomorrow10:48
DocScrutinizer51johnx: actually not much10:48
johnxI'll much with my ssh keepalive and push it up to maybe a minute or so10:48
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DocScrutinizer51johnx: should suffice10:49
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DocScrutinizer51johnx: I need a keepalive=300 otherwise the ssh connect stalls eventually10:51
DocScrutinizer51not on N90010:51
johnxyeah, same here10:52
johnxstill not clear on where that's happening10:52
johnxmaybe at my router?10:52
DocScrutinizer51I guess10:52
DocScrutinizer51NAT session timeout10:52
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woglindehm do we have a field in control for original maintainer?11:01
ManuelSEmv /bin/pulseaudio /home/user fixes N900 performance problems11:01
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ManuelSEwish i knew wog11:01
woglindeManuelSE lol11:01
Vrathai just have to say that i'm using twm in my debian VM, and i like it, dammit11:01
woglindeManuelSE didnt this disable pulseaudio?11:02
woglindebecause you move the binary11:02
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ManuelSEyes :(11:02
ManuelSEi want to bypass11:02
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Myrtti... good luck11:03
woglindehm why not dpkg --purge11:03
ManuelSEi have maker pentagram in /home/user.  then i move pulseaudio bin and kill the process, then i can use n90011:03
MyrttiI thought pulseaudio comes by default in N900?11:03
ManuelSEthen i move it back to /bin when i finish11:04
ManuelSEyes but it must be killed11:04
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woglindeManuelSE hm I see11:04
ManuelSEi wven turn autospawn off in .config but this did not help11:05
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JaffaMorning, all11:09
woglindehi jaffa11:09
redeemanManuelSE: wait, so if i move pulseaudio, it will revert to alsa or something?11:10
MyrttiI'd say if you need to do something to pulseaudio, you're doing something wrong11:10
redeemanMyrtti: elaborate on that?11:10
Myrttiredeeman: it's a phone, meant for talking and listening to other people11:11
johnxit's a linux device: it's meant to do whatever root wants it to do11:11
redeemanwell in this case, I would prefer it not to use pulseaudio :)11:12
MyrttiI'd assume poking pulseaudio might have some Really Bad Effects on the phone part11:12
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Myrttibut of course, my opinion is worth about the snot of an elephant, because I'm just speculating based on my feelings.11:12
Myrttiand it's your device, so you're allowed to fuck it up too.11:13
Myrttigood luck :-)11:13
johnxredeeman, then ManuelSE's method should work fine :) If you want !pulseaudio && "any sound at all" ... well that's different :)11:14
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redeemani obviously want it to revert to alsa directly :)11:14
johnxMyrtti, exactly. The best part about UNIX/Linux is that it comes with enough rope to hang yourself :D11:14
redeemanwhich i suspect is not gonna happen11:14
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johnxwell, sure, it might "revert" to alsa just fine, but the question is: Do any of the default apps know how to speak to ALSA directly?11:15
ManuelSEindividual app can hit hardware like /bin/pulseaudio11:15
ManuelSEjust need source11:15
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redeemanManuelSE: but does the individual applications support this?11:15
redeemanyes well11:15
ManuelSEmine would11:15
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timeless_mbpjohnx: afaiu we use pulse11:15
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Myrttijohnx: stupidity has unfortunately not been criminalized11:16
johnxtimeless_mbp, yes. you do.11:16
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timeless_mbp(the browser for the most part doesn't use anything, but when it does, it should use sydney which would use pulse)11:16
ManuelSEtimeless_mbp is nokia pulseaudio source available?11:16
woglindebut it seems to have some performance stuff11:16
woglindeaeh hits11:16
johnxMyrtti, "Now I'm not saying we put a death penalty on stupidity. I'm just saying we take the warning labels off of everything and let things work themselves out."11:16
timeless_mbpManuelSE: oddly enough, mxr is in the channel topic..11:17
ManuelSEstupid would be using pulseaudio johnx11:17
Myrttijohnx: that would explain why USA still exi... nvm.11:17
* Myrtti goes to hang up some laundry11:17
johnxManuelSE, so, build alsa with dmix, and start migrating your apps to use alsa. In this case, I think nothing is actually stopping you11:18
Vrathait looks like newegg can't keep the n900 in stock11:18
Vrathai wonder how many they're ordering at a time11:18
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ManuelSE  even arm optimized drnoksnes cannot run fullspeed.  see 2:4211:18
Vrathai'm going with "bs" on that one :)11:18
johnxbs: NaN11:19
ManuelSEjohnx, i think alsa is on top of pulse11:19
Vrathajohnx: you may want to use one of your lifelines11:19
johnxit can be done of course, but how is pulseaudio accessing the hardware?11:19
redeemanManuelSE: that might be for some of the applications11:19
ManuelSEyes for compat layer11:19
redeemani would guess they set it up so that alsa has an alsa -> pulse for compat11:20
ManuelSEit is in wiki11:20
redeemanand some apps hit that11:20
redeemansome apps hit pulse directly11:20
johnxManuelSE, ls /dev/snd11:20
redeemanand pulse goes to the alsa hw device11:20
RST38hX-Fade: here?11:20
Vrathawhen are they opening the Ovi store for the n900?11:21
DocScrutinizer51seems there is no other hw-audio-card drivers than ALSA11:22
timeless_mbpVratha: sometime before the year 297111:22
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johnxDocScrutinizer51, well, there are different ways to get audio from a linux app to speakers/headphones. Just look at the N8x0/Maemo4 ;)11:23
Vrathatimeless_mbp: thanks; i take it you're clueless then11:23
timeless_mbpVratha: more like it isn't announced information11:23
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timeless_mbpand most likely if it was announced, it'd be wrong11:23
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timeless_mbpso stop asking stupid questions11:23
timeless_mbpwe can't read tea leaves very well here11:23
Vrathayeah, it was such a stupid question11:23
Vrathanext time i'll make sure i know all of the internets11:24
timeless_mbpthis is #maemo, not #ovi11:24
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ruskiethere aren't any stupid questions, only stupid answers11:24
timeless_mbpovi is a nokia entity totally apart from maemo11:24
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Vrathait sure is, but since maemo is used on nokia devices and financially backed bythem11:24
johnxVratha, I'm thinking he took offense to you calling him "clueless"11:24
lcuki have a part in ovi!11:24
Vrathait kinda makes sense to think someone might know11:24
Vrathajohnx: yeah11:24
DocScrutinizer51so a usual setup would look like app->alsa2PA->PAserver->PA2alsa-hwdriver11:24
timeless_mbpVratha: it also makes sense that no one would know11:24
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timeless_mbpyour logic is awful11:24
johnxso, you two make up and be friends now :)11:24
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timeless_mbpthe odds are that lcuk knows more about their schedule than i an employee11:25
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lcuki know nothing about their schedule11:25
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lcuki just felt around the internal mechanics of the ovi11:25
Vrathatimeless_mbp: actually, my logic is built on empirical evidence11:25
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johnxc'mon. better things to argue about: like why my LDAP setup is being a PITA11:26
timeless_mbpwhat evidence do you have that anyone in nokia talks to anyone in nokia?11:26
timeless_mbpi'd love to hear it11:26
timeless_mbpbecause i've been with nokia for >3 1/2 years, and i have yet to see it11:27
mecetimeless_mbp, LOL11:27
johnxtimeless_mbp, I have recorded video from the summit! though, maybe that was two Nokia guys overhearing each other talking to other attendees11:27
timeless_mbpjohnx: what's to argue? it's LDAP11:27
timeless_mbpjohnx: correct11:27
johnxtimeless_mbp, so, what should i use in place of LDAP? (open to suggestions)11:28
timeless_mbpthat's not us talking to nokians, that's nokians talking to other people with nokians eavesdropping :)11:28
johnxand don't say NIS :P11:28
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timeless_mbpjohnx: heh11:28
Vrathaah, you would like to call for an appeal to expertise11:28
timeless_mbpno, sorry11:28
Vrathai'll get right on with that logical fallacy11:28
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Vrathai actually need sleep now; night11:28
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timeless_mbpVratha: asking for scheduling information is inappropriate11:29
redwow, my phone is really hot11:29
timeless_mbpif there's an announced schedule, it'll be announced somewhere else11:29
redthink ill go for a smoke with it :p11:29
Vrathain one internet "guy's" opinion11:29
timeless_mbpeither on,, or
johnxor on engadget, or mobile-review :)11:29
red24h tethered with utorrent running on the main pc - dont think ill leave it on another night like that :P11:29
timeless_mbpor peter@maemo on talk ...11:30
DocScrutinizer51red: if it survived one night, then it most likely can stand it arbitrary timespans11:31
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johnxthough lots of heat will have adverse effects on battery life in the long run11:32
DocScrutinizer51s/one night/24h11:32
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DocScrutinizer51johnx: ack11:32
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* DocScrutinizer51 wonders if ther's a hidden receptacle for ext. GSM ant somewhere on N90011:34
johnxI bet it's hidden behind where the GSM antenna is plugged in :>11:36
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johnx*&$% you LDAP! I will bend you to my will!11:39
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ManuelSEjohnx can mplayer -ao alsa talk to hw pcm?11:40
ManuelSEyou know verymmuch, about this11:41
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johnxno idea11:41
johnxnever tried it11:41
johnxin my case, I'm perfectly happy with pulseaudio :)11:41
ManuelSEbut it consume so much cpu11:41
johnxyeah. it's a crime. mp3s only play for like 20 hours <_<11:41
ManuelSEsee the video for proof11:41
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ManuelSEthat is too much for high performance applications11:42
ManuelSEyes, a software crime11:42
johnxok. good luck with your work11:42
ManuelSEmade by a manager11:42
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johnxI'm pretty sure there are some reasonable technical reasons why pulseaudio was used *and* I bet there's a good way to make it take less CPU time11:43
ManuelSEok, faster sound coming11:43
DocScrutinizer51friggin calendar doesn't know to simply do "next/prev week/whatever" by simple swipe like desktops :-(11:43
johnxDocScrutinizer51, tried that a couple times. are you starting from offscreen (which has a known problem)?11:44
johnxManuelSE, you know why pulseaudio takes up so much CPU time, right?11:44
DocScrutinizer51hmm. didn't check11:44
PaulFertserjohnx: come on, what does PA bring to a portable device that is not available in plain ALSA?11:44
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johnxPaulFertser, compatibility with gnome apps.11:45
PaulFertserjohnx: what exactly do you mean?11:45
redeemanhmm, hmm.. why does one need to install rootsh to get root? it seems that package doesn't provide the gainroot thing, so that obviously is there to begin with, so why install rootsh instead of using just gainroot?11:45
DocScrutinizer51k. nevermind11:45
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johnxPaulFertser, I mean, some gnome apps use pulseaudio, so having pulse makes them easier to port11:46
johnxredeeman, try using gainroot without rootsh installed11:46
johnxPaulFertser, anyways. I won't defend Nokia's decisions for them. Find their sound guy if you want to debate the merits of alsa vs pulse11:46
Termanapulseaudio takes up a heap of cpu cycles because they hired microsoft programmers11:47
PaulFertserjohnx: (find their sound guy) sounds like an easy task, right?11:47
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: roughly, pulse is the solution that's winning11:47
timeless_mbpso trying to demand everyone use alsa is a waste of breath11:47
redeemanjohnx: well reading the script, it doesn't use either the root or rootsh binary provided by rootsh, so why wouldn't it work?11:47
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timeless_mbpif you want to waste your breath, be my guest, but please, not here11:47
redeemanbut lol, using pulse also uses alsa11:48
johnxredeeman, part of the rootsh installation flips a bit in gainroots config, I believe11:48
redeemanso pulse is hardly winning11:48
redeemanjohnx: oh11:48
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PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: you say pulse is winning but it's not exactly correct. It's winning only on desktop GNU/Linux distros. And it uses alsa driver to output any actual sound.11:48
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: so erm11:48
timeless_mbpyou want us to actively diverge from the desktop distros11:48
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: it has particular advantages and cool architecture etc but it doesn't make it immediately the most suitable thing to use on a portable device.11:49
timeless_mbpwhere all real dev work is done11:49
timeless_mbpand where the real interesting potential apps come from11:49
ali1234PaulFertser: it's wining on mobile platforms too. you know android doesn't use alsa right?11:49
timeless_mbpand where the people who understand how to write audio apps live11:49
ali1234so that's basically pulse 1 alsa 011:49
redeemanali1234: what does it use then?11:49
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: not really, can you tell me about any app you use that doesn't have ALSA output capability and is PA-only?11:49
ali1234redeeman: it uses binary blobs11:49
redeemani see11:49
PaulFertserali1234: i doubt android uses PA.11:49
redeemanwell that's even worse than pulse -> alsa11:49
PaulFertserali1234: also android is POS, so it doesn't prove anything at all ever.11:50
ali1234PaulFertser: where are all these mobile phones that use only alsa, and not pulse?11:50
PaulFertserali1234: where're those apps that use only PA and not alsa?11:50
ali1234PaulFertser: pulseaudio is not a driver api11:51
PaulFertserali1234: you bet i know11:51
johnxManuelSE, so anyways, pulseaudio takes up so much time because apparently it does some weird digital amplification to make sound coming out of the speakers sound louder without being totally distorted11:51
ali1234PaulFertser: but since you ask, any sound app that is running on anything other than linux11:51
PaulFertserali1234: neither alsalib is a driver api.11:51
ali1234and using pulse11:51
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PaulFertserali1234: give me an example of any widely deployed app that can use pulse but can't use alsa directly. Please.11:52
johnxPaulFertser, do you just lurk in wait for these topics to come up?11:52
ali1234PaulFertser: SDL on N90011:52
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redeemansdl could just have been compiled with alsa enabled11:53
PaulFertserali1234: SDL does support alsa directly, so any SDL app can use alsa directly.11:53
ali1234just try disabling pulse, and notice how SDL fails to fall back to using alsa11:53
w00tjohnx: I was starting to wonder whether he comes here exclusively to complain11:53
redSo is it pulseaudios fault that N900 media player has this weird sounds Compression?11:53
PaulFertserali1234: means sdl is compiled without alsa output plugin, just that...11:53
ali1234yeah, so?11:53
Termanajohnx - shh its fun to watch people argue over pointless shit11:53
PaulFertserali1234: you proved nothing by this example, i'm afraid.11:53
redI can hear on silent parts that the sound goes up and down and its driving me mad since I compose music and that kinda master compression is just plain wrong11:53
redeemanali1234: " any sound app that is running on anything other than linux" <-- not true, they support multiple apis then11:53
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redeemanred: erhm, pulseaudio definitely does something aswell, as its eating lots of cpu11:54
johnxTermana, eh. I was hoping to get ManuelSE to do some work for me, in terms of reducing CPU usage of pulseaudio :P11:54
redredeeman: thats what I was afraid of. However I don't understand those things that deeply (apis etc)11:54
johnxred, interesting. I wonder if we can find a way to tweak that setting somewhere in PA...11:54
PaulFertserjohnx: w00t but PA is not pointless shit. It's really interesting to see some sane examples of using it. Also when we tried PA on openmoko we were quite disappointed by numerous bugs, including arm-specific. It's not pointless talk!11:54
Termanajohnx - yeah, and then all THIS started11:54
ali1234PaulFertser: you proved nothing other than that pulseaudio is not a driver11:54
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redeemanred: well either its some processing, or a huge bug, probably its some form of resampling11:55
redjohnx: I went through all sound settings and media player settings without finding a way to disable the compression11:55
redresampling wont compress the audio11:55
johnxPaulFertser, not pointless to talk about its technical merits, which was not the discussion happening11:55
redeemani don't know about its media player though, i don't use it11:55
w00tPaulFertser: yes, but you do this with *everything*, and you never have anything positive to contribute other than "you're doing everything wrong", which doesn't really work in a community setting11:55
johnxred, as in you dug around in /etc?11:55
redlike a limiter/compressor does (amplify sounds until a spike would distort, then reduce the sound and slowly gain it upwards)11:55
floriangood moring11:55
PaulFertserali1234: i was not intending to prove. I just asked why do you guys thought using PA is better than using plain alsa. You told there're some apps that can't use alsa but can use pa. But you failed to provide an example.11:55
redjohnx: thats out of my expertise I'm afraid11:56
redeemanred: that sounds insane11:56
johnxred, great. I'll look there and see if I can find anything11:56
woglindeI am to lazy to send my pulse-patches in11:56
w00tPaulFertser: if it wasn't pointless, you'd be finding ways to do something about it if at least bringing it up somewhere where change might occur or you might get an explanation, but all you seem to do is vocalise, constantly11:56
woglindebut they are only for a minority11:56
ali1234PaulFertser: because using plain alsa is not an option without a software mixer such as pulseaudio11:56
PaulFertserw00t: give me n900 schematics and i'll contribute an answer to the n900 usb host mode questions.11:56
woglindelike using uClinc11:56
woglindeargs uClibc11:56
w00tyou're doing it again11:56
redjohnx: it might be called compression or limiting11:56
ali1234you basically have a choice between esound, arts, dmix, and pulseaudio. only one of those isn't total garbage11:57
PaulFertserali1234: fyi alsa includes software mixer that is not any worse than PA's given possible usecases.11:57
redeemanali1234: not so, explain how my desktop does fine with pure alsa then?11:57
johnxred, would it be similar to what happens with too much "pre-amp"? (is that the right word?)11:57
redAudio level compression - in which the dynamic range (difference between loud and quiet) of an audio waveform is reduced.11:57
ali1234redeeman: you're using dmix and don't know it because you happen to be one of the 1% of people for whom it actually works11:57
redand/or amplified using gain in the end11:57
PaulFertserw00t: also i did some little stuff to help compile mer on debian stable thus giving an ability to run it on armv4 targets.11:58
redeemanali1234: i know exactly what im using, and i happen to not be using dmix, and furthermore, dmix works for everyone that doesn't use a distribution that has deliberately fucked it up11:58
redjohnx: I'm unsure if I can explain it in better terms in english :(11:58
PaulFertserw00t: i'm not constantly complaining. I just asked about PA. Just asked. Why do you want to mistreat my questions?11:58
w00tPaulFertser: yes, and that's great, but that's one contribution out of hours of discussions which go around and around in circles and never seem to get anywhere remotely close to productive11:58
redI'll try to give an example11:58
ManuelSEjohnx sorry -was away - yes pulseaudio load is lower with head,hones11:58
ali1234redeeman: oh so you're one of that other 1% of people who has a soundcard with hardware mixing and a working alsa driver?11:58
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ManuelSEheh ali11:59
redeemanali1234: i do not have hardware mixing11:59
PaulFertserw00t: wanna see an example of using per-application softvol controls in pure alsa? Is it pointless?11:59
redeemaneither way, dmix does work11:59
ManuelSEall we need is for a couple games/emus to bypass pulse11:59
ali1234redeeman: heh, then i guess your definition of "working" is only playing sound in one app at a time?11:59
w00tPaulFertser: donotcare11:59
w00tPaulFertser: harping on about it here constantly isn't going to do anything11:59
redeemanali1234: yes, that is what i wish to happen 99% of the time, when i want something else, i use dmix11:59
* timeless_mbp resolves redeeman as broken 12:00
redeemanand dmix does work12:00
redtake a trance song and you know they have these silent parts when the song is starting to go to a uplift -- that silent part is far away from "peak volume" so the compression kicks in and brings the volume higher, until some sound would peak to digital distortion, during when it pumps the volume down fast, again letting it be louder until some other sound would go to distort.. It's good for getting oldies play louder, but it's an awful thing to make "always on"12:00
redeemanbut im guessing your testing of dmix involves installing ubuntu12:00
ManuelSEredeeman, most people want multi sound playback from OS12:00
redeemanand concluding it doesn't work12:00
redeemanManuelSE: which alsa can do aswell12:00
ManuelSEyeah i use dmix12:00
PaulFertserw00t: i asked about PA but got a rough and pointless argument instead. That's what happened. I'm not doing what you're accusing me of :|12:00
ManuelSEi have to read all this discussion now12:01
woglindeif pulse has this performance problems it should be not used or fixed12:01
redjust wondering if its due PA or what :P12:01
PaulFertserYou people are too used to holy wars, can't even discuss issues based on the technical merits :|12:01
redeemanred: i would not expect your issue to be because of pulseaudio, but its just a guess12:01
ali1234redeeman: actually it involves using various distros over the past 10 years and ubuntu being the first one to actually have working sound that doesn't mysteriously stop working when some random app blocks the sound card12:01
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Myrttiand all this time could've been used productively, like washing laundry, or making brunch.12:01
redheres for hoping someone will discover what causes it and how to disable it12:02
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: there are no holy wars12:02
timeless_mbponly wastes of effort12:02
woglindeMyrtti or fix pa12:02
redI do notice it affecting alot less on lower volume thought12:02
timeless_mbpthis is a community12:02
johnxred, looking at the config right now, but it'll take a while before I can figure out what's "safe" to change :)12:02
woglindehm nxcomp is in12:02
woglindenow nxssh and nxproxy12:02
w00tMyrtti: hey, my productivity for the day is going fine, two bugs fixed, mail dealt with, and it's only 10am12:02
timeless_mbpnokia happens to have picked the same solution that various other desktop vendors have picked12:02
johnxPaulFertser, you didn't give a single technical merit, either. Also: You're discussing things with people who have no control over Nokia's direction in this regard12:02
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: i asked the community why they use PA and got only bashing in response, thanks12:02
Myrttiw00t: great!12:02
timeless_mbpyou've acknowledged that12:02
redjohnx: thats fine. I'm not expecting anyone to fix this for me just because I whine on IRC :D12:02
w00tjohnx: summarised perfectly, thanks12:02
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: um, no12:02
timeless_mbpnokia chose pulse12:03
timeless_mbpasking the community will get you precisely what you got12:03
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timeless_mbpit wasn't a community decision12:03
redeemanthe community might still know though12:03
timeless_mbpbut from the looks of it, this community would have chosen pulse anyway12:03
timeless_mbpand the reasons they would have are roughly above12:03
woglindetimeless_mbp how much lennart payed?12:03
ali1234pulse is the only sane choice12:03
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timeless_mbpwoglinde: we don't discuss salaries12:04
johnxred, no worries. If I figure anything out, I'll need you to test :)12:04
timeless_mbpwoglinde: any other stupid questions? :)12:04
PaulFertserjohnx: (single technical merit) i didn't because it's obvious: PA is/was known to cause problems every now and then, it's an additional resource hog and indirection layer anywhere. It's obviously a complication comparing to plain alsa setup. That's pro-alsa argument, and it's obvious. I wanted to hear any pro-PA argument.12:04
yabohi all12:04
w00ttimeless_mbp: $5 if you switch to OSS12:04
* w00t dons flameproof underwear12:04
timeless_mbpw00t: my group switched to sydney :)12:04
w00tto what? never heard of that12:04
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yaboI extensively tried the GPS & navigation stuff of the N900 this week-end and I'm very disappointed :( Anyone got problems with it too ?12:05
redeemanhmm pulseaudio appears to be set for 48khz12:05
redeemanthat will obviously require it to resample on most audio12:05
red48khz is fine12:05
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LaiskaHey guys, a silly question.. where are e.g. the pictures locted on the n900 filesystem? I was thinking that I could just scp them to my laptop hazzle-free..12:05
redeemanLaiska: ~/MyDocs/.something probably12:06
woglindeLaiska depends on the apps12:06
johnxLaiska, /home/user/MyDocs/.images12:06
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timeless_mbpLaiska: which 'pictures'12:06
timeless_mbpphotos are ~/MyDocs/DCIM12:06
timeless_mbpwhich is labeled "Camera" or "Photos" or {your ****py localized string here}12:06
timeless_mbppictures are typically ~/MyDocs/.images12:06
w00ttimeless_mbp: hmm, interesting, thanks12:06
timeless_mbpscreenshots are ~/MyDocs/.images/Screenshots/12:07
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LaiskaDCIM was the answer I was looking for, thanks timeless_mbp12:07
timeless_mbpand image viewer will roughly speaking show any image anywhere in ~/MyDocs12:07
woglindehm oh it has its screenshot funktion now12:07
pupnikPaulFertser, maybe they just wanted to be forward-looking with sound arch.12:07
ShadowJKthe speakerprotection thingy probably uses more cpu than any resampling.. :)12:07
timeless_mbpwoglinde: ctrl-shift-p12:07
PaulFertserredeeman: quite possibly you and me know much more about alsa and PA than ali1234 and yet "the community" makes me look wrong and pointless, what a day...12:07
woglindetimeless_mbp was this on diablo too?12:07
LaiskaOther answers good2know stuff also :)12:07
woglindeI awlays installed gpe-scap12:07
timeless_mbpwoglinde: no12:07
timeless_mbp'good'? :)12:07
ali1234PaulFertser: next will you ask what QT offers a mobile platform over ncurses?12:07
pupnikshadowjk, how about an alternate pulse speaker sink with volume limiter12:08
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woglindehoi pupnik12:08
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timeless_mbpPaulFertser: so, get hired by nokia and get them to change their mind12:08
pupnikinstead of eq12:08
redShadowJK: what speaker protection12:08
PaulFertserali1234: do you have any PA or ALSA patch accepted upstream?12:08
redeemanred, johnx: just read through the pulseaudio config files, there appears to be nothing that suggests any filtering like what you experience12:08
ShadowJKred, does that compression happen through headphones too?12:08
redShadowJK: like a master limiter?12:08
pupnikredeeman -hidden12:08
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ali1234PaulFertser: what does that have to do with anything?12:09
redShadowJK: not that I've noticed. I havent listened with headphones much yet12:09
redeemanpupnik: ?12:09
redonly videos12:09
PaulFertserali1234: well, that would probably tell something about your depth of understanding the issues...12:09
pupniki also liiked in config - they did not expose speaker protection there -aict12:09
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ShadowJKred, i don't know the full story, but apparently you can kill the speakers or make then sound like crap, and there's this pulseaudio module running when you listen through speakers12:09
ShadowJKso there's less CPU use when listening through headphones, too12:10
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: you sound like questioning _any_ nokia decision here is asking for trouble :(12:10
redah yes, well I could care less about using the phones built in speakers :)12:10
pupniknokia can not tell us how to break the speakers12:10
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: roughly it's a waste of time12:10
ShadowJKred, so this compression you described, was that through headphones?12:10
pupnikwe must find this ourselves :)12:10
johnxPaulFertser, asking people to defend decisions made by other people generally is a waste of time, yes12:11
timeless_mbpprovide a patch or a demo12:11
redbut ShadowJK I guess it counts as speaker when using a 3,5mm plug to drive audio to car stereo :p12:11
redjust big headphones ;)12:11
LaiskaAah scp worked like a dream, this is excellent as I hate connecting cables/BT pairing etc.. + easy to make scripts for automated upload12:11
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johnxLaiska, if you like scp, you'll love rsync :)12:11
ShadowJKred, nah that's using the headphone output and that bypasses that speakerprotection thing. Now to find out whether it's the n900 or your car stereo doing compression12:11
redmy car stereo is definetly not compressing12:12
woglindejohnx dont see much effort there12:12
DocScrutinizer51johnx: paul wasn't asking for defence. He was asking why PA is used12:12
timeless_mbpali1234: comes to mind12:12
redbeen using it 3 years, via sony walkman, iphone, usb mass storage and cd's12:12
rednone of which have the same symptom12:12
LaiskaOh yeah, rsync..12:12
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: "because someone at nokia picked it"12:12
ShadowJKhm :(12:12
timeless_mbpbut roughly "because it's the solution people are comfortable with and which is used on the desktop"12:13
timeless_mbpit's also "the one with active development/support"12:13
johnxDocScrutinizer, s/defend/explain/12:13
ShadowJKwhen pa was announced to be used in maemo5 how many years ago, everybody was like "yay \o/, go nokia!" heh12:13
fluxpaulfertser, while I indeed have problems with PA on my desktop setup, I have no problem having it on my n900.. for example it looks like its application-specific mixer setting capabilities have been taken into good use.12:13
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timeless_mbpand nokia likes to support the standard open source projects, because it makes us look like good guys12:13
DocScrutinizer51next question: 'do we (the community) think that's a wise decision?'12:13
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johnxShadowJK, because it replaced esound outputting to the DSP :P12:13
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: i think that's an unwise question12:13
PaulFertserjohnx: (defending others' decisions) it's an interesting conception, i thought that defending others' opinions is an opportunity to learn and to find important technical points.12:13
timeless_mbpbut the community of #maemo has already above stated "yes"12:14
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: no, it's an opportunity to annoy people12:14
timeless_mbpplease stop doing it.12:14
woglindePaulFertser you have your answer12:14
timeless_mbpwhen i go to a class and ask questions of my teacher12:14
* w00t agrees12:14
timeless_mbpmy teacher is paid to answer my questions12:14
johnxPaulFertser, great. Pretend you're Nokia and chose pulse. Why did you do it?12:14
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woglindeeven if you dont like it12:14
timeless_mbpno matter how stupid12:14
timeless_mbpbut my teacher is paid to do this12:14
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timeless_mbpif i were a researcher and these people were filling in a survey for me12:15
timeless_mbpi'd have to pay them too12:15
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ShadowJKinstead of arguing about PA today and now, it'd be smarter to go look at the roadmap of maemo6/7 because it's too late for changes in m512:15
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timeless_mbpeither with movie tickets, or dinner, or real cash12:15
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timeless_mbpso, stop abusing the community12:15
timeless_mbpif you want to do this survey, offer people some compensation12:15
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pupniki am sure pa will be fine12:15
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RST38hjohnx: Why? To torture me of course12:15
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: i see you're quite important member of the community, shaping its opinions in a fast and perfect style.12:15
* timeless_mbp would suggest looking at m7 since m6 is probably close to frozen on feature set12:15
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: you're learning.12:15
* RST38h does not see the point of this discussion: whatever audio framework nokia would choose, it would still be crap12:16
johnxheh. so how much overhead would there be to add dmix to alsa?12:16
RST38hThe last working audio framework in Unix was /dev/dsp12:16
woglindejohnx someone has to do it12:16
timeless_mbpRST38h: heh12:16
ShadowJKthere's a reason why other desktop distros abandoned dmix... it's broken12:16
johnxwoglinde, yeah. but the source is there, and it shouldn't be *too* hard. I mean, if it wouldn't add a ton of overhead, maybe I could even do it *shrugs*12:17
timeless_mbpjohnx: surely you have better things to do?12:17
timeless_mbpi know i do12:17
timeless_mbp(like streaming a live broadcast to two groups in <6hrs12:18
PaulFertserjohnx: looking at n810 i see nokia didn't implement proper alsa support at all, most probably due to not perfect correspondence of alsa architecture with hardware. So they decided to go the easy route providing a simple kernel driver and a custom userspace solution (esd plugin).12:18
timeless_mbp(groups = distinct streaming servers, including akamai)12:18
PaulFertserjohnx: given they didn't face any obstacles with that probably they decided to do the same on n900, just using more sane PA instead of the shitty esd.12:18
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ShadowJKthere's alsa on n90012:19
jvsgood monring12:19
* ShadowJK uses mplayer with it12:19
timeless_mbp"didn't face any obstacles"12:19
timeless_mbpoh sure12:19
jvs*morning (too early)12:19
PaulFertserShadowJK: there's alsa on n810 but it doesn't work fast/properly.12:19
woglindeShadowJK *g* read the discussion from beginning12:19
DocScrutinizer51from RPM "PA is a repleacement for esd"12:19
johnxPaulFertser, you don't know the half of it. :) Sound output comes from the DSP on the N8x0, so the kernel doesn't even get the final say on it12:19
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PaulFertserjohnx: i know about that.12:19
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* RST38h has never seen fully working alsa12:20
woglinderst fully?12:20
redeemanwell then you should look at mine12:20
PaulFertserjohnx: doesn't mean that there can't be proper alsa driver (and additional interfaces) implemented to do it more standard (in Linux world) way.12:20
johnxtimeless_mbp, I am somewhat curious if cutting out pulseaudio would actually reduce battery load12:20
RST38hredeeman: just means you have not digged deep enough12:20
ShadowJKpulse is the standard linux desktop these days..12:20
johnxPaulFertser, there were, eventually. (at least for the N810, but not the N800)12:20
ShadowJKfedora doesn't even have dmix anymore, atleast not out of the box12:20
woglindeShadowJK not here12:20
woglindehere it dont works12:20
PaulFertserwoglinde: (compiling alsa with dmix) should be trivial, probably it's even done this way in maemo.12:21
RST38hShadow: s/these days/of the hour/12:21
timeless_mbpjohnx: roughly, i'm sure it would12:21
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woglindePaulFertser hm I didnt complain about it12:21
timeless_mbpbecause pulse is usually eating 80% of the cpu :)12:21
jvsdoes anybody know how to make the n900 to pull all the contacts from the various IM accounts?12:21
PaulFertserjohnx: are you sure n810 alsa driver works "ok"? Because in my experience it doesn't, the sound skips or breaks.12:21
timeless_mbpjohnx: but, the question is could one easily replace it with something else and not lose features12:22
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timeless_mbpfrom hearing it discussed as a culprit internally12:22
johnxPaulFertser, I never claimed it worked "ok." I only claimed that it existed ;)12:22
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timeless_mbpit's clear that no one internally has ever suggested that12:22
timeless_mbpwhich implies they don't consider it feasible12:22
timeless_mbpand the guys who work on sound/multimedia are smart12:22
RST38hprobably dogmatic too12:22
timeless_mbpif they're not even considering it, i have faith that they have good reasons not to12:23
johnxRight. Lots of stuff probably depends on it, on Maemo at least12:23
PaulFertserjohnx: i never denied it. But you see, i gave a possible reasonably sounding explanation to why nokia choosed PA, didn't i?12:23
timeless_mbpjohnx: actually12:23
redeemani would have no problem with PA on the N900 if it didn't eat so much cpu12:23
johnxPaulFertser, ah. Right. That you did :)12:23
timeless_mbpi think lots of things use canberra (?) or sydney12:23
zaheermdmix doesn't even come close to handlign what the n900 needs12:23
w00ttimeless_mbp: people are fallible, too, it is possible that it simply has been overlooked, but I wonder how it could be brought to their attention12:23
zaheermthink bluetooth headsets for example12:23
PaulFertserjohnx: i was hoping to hear that from "the community" so i would have an opporutinity to present an alternative pov.12:23
johnxtimeless_mbp, so what I'm thinking is pulseaudio -> alsa-dmix -> alsa-hw12:24
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timeless_mbpw00t: one person is fallible, a team of 4-8 would only rule something out if there's a good reason12:24
timeless_mbplike "not enough time"12:24
w00ttimeless_mbp: (of course, I'm probably wrong, but it'd perhaps be good to get an official viewpoint on whether it's possible.. or what the pitfalls are)12:24
timeless_mbpgiven that they had at times not more than a month12:24
PaulFertserzaheerm: are you sure you need real-time rerounting between A2DP and wired output? I'd choose more performance over this minor feature.12:25
timeless_mbpi'm willing to accept your idea as "theoretically possible, but not implementable within the time alloted"12:25
timeless_mbpnote that maemo 5 is roughly speaking api frozen12:25
timeless_mbpeven if they wanted to replace pulse, they couldn't12:25
w00tyeah, talking for future here, obviously12:25
timeless_mbpthe final sdk shipped, the sales product shipped12:25
zaheermPaulFertser, yes, when i am on a phone call and my car's bluetooth connects i want it real-time not 2 seconds gap of no sound12:25
timeless_mbpbut given that alsa does not seem to be the way of the future12:25
timeless_mbpanyway, libcanberra is the other one12:26
PaulFertserzaheerm: well, that would be a reasonable usecase, too bad i got bashed by "the community" before hearing about it.12:26
timeless_mbpzaheerm: what, you want a working piece of consumer electronics?12:26
timeless_mbpfree open source, high latency linux isn't good enough for you?12:26
tbfi wonder that lennart didn't investigate PA's high cpu load on n900 yet, as he got a n900 on the summit12:26
woglindetimeless_mbp aeh so what will be in kernel?12:26
zaheermtimeless_mbp, yes hence the ened for pulseaudio12:26
tbfhave to poke him on occasion12:26
zaheermtbf, there are pulseaudio hackers inside nokia too12:26
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zaheermtimeless_mbp, libcanberra is for naming and theming of audio event sounds12:27
woglindetbf lennart has no unit tests so what you expect12:27
tbfzaheerm: still i wonder that lennart didn't look yet12:27
zaheermtbf, he probably has looked, sure12:27
woglindetbf he even dont test then other libc's12:27
* timeless_mbp remembers having lunch w/ lennart @nokia .hel12:27
timeless_mbp(and also meeting him elsewhere)12:27
zaheermi don't have any issues with PA on my n900, it mostly works fine12:27
* RST38h wonders if it is worth mentioning that PA hangs your application when there is media player running12:28
tbfzaheerm: and PA really is the stuff needed for a device like the n90012:28
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RST38hAnd that it required a reboot, at least until 42.1112:28
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timeless_mbpRST38h: roughly speaking audio is supposed to be a high priority task12:28
tbfzaheerm: just the amount of CPU time it spends on audio playback is confusing12:28
zaheermtbf, that or some proprietary crap that nokia internally wopuld have created, i'd rather pulseaudio12:28
RST38hOh, it has nothing to do with priority12:28
timeless_mbpRST38h: besides 42.11 is sales12:29
timeless_mbpnothing before that matters12:29
woglindetbf maybee someone should point lennart to oprofile12:29
RST38hHas everything to do with PA being a pile of crap that has never been debugged properly12:29
timeless_mbpRST38h: so go debug it12:29
tbfzaheerm: knowing how doing nokia internal crap works, i am pretty happy that they choose PA12:29
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zaheermwoglinde, he knows a lot about oprofile, he also wriote a profiler for lock contention to improve performance in pa12:29
tbfwoglinde: i am pretty sure he knows12:29
RST38hWell, all my apps have been recompiled to work around this problem, so I can't test12:29
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RST38htimeless: no, you debug it folks12:29
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* RST38h has stuff to debug12:30
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PaulFertserRST38h: be careful, you're talking against "the community" now, wasting everyone's time.12:30
* timeless_mbp pokes avs12:30
timeless_mbpwe need to talk; lunch?12:30
woglindezaheerm, tbf was only joke12:30
johnxso, all the PA modules are open source, right?12:30
woglindejohny jo12:31
woglindeargs johnx12:31
woglindeif there isnt a hidden dsp12:31
RST38hOk, the PA bug is still very much present in 42.1112:31
RST38hSo, yes, your sales N900 device can hang any moment12:31
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* RST38h just hung his12:32
johnxpupnik, thanks. was being lazy :)12:32
RST38hjohnx: I actually traced down the problem to PA thread hanging waiting for some resource12:32
RST38hjahnx: It never proceeds so when you shut PA down and wait for the thread to finish, you hang12:33
johnxRST38h, your "hang" bug? or the "high CPU usage" bug?12:33
RST38hjohnx: the hang one12:33
RST38hjohnx: I suspect high cpu usage is not a bug :)12:33
johnxintended to keep your hands warm in a Finnish winter? :P12:33
ShadowJKI remember mentioning last year pulseaudio chewing through 15% CPU on my 2.83GHz quad-core, and everyone ignored me :-)12:33
tbfjohnx: RST38h: i wonder what happens if you "just" install PA from upstream12:33
johnxtbf, horrible breakage12:33
RST38hjohnx: Intended to keep lennart's megalomania satisfied :)12:34
RST38htbf: It breaks. Why?12:34
xorAxAxred: hi, are you experiencing the compression when using headphones?12:34
tbfjohnx: RST38h: because of the big amount of patches12:34
tbfjohnx: RST38h: wonder if one of the pack ports is not proper....12:34
johnxtbf, the big amount of patches and the modules labeled "nokia-"12:34
ShadowJKxorAxAx, he was using headphone -> carstereo. He mentioned many other devices with which the same setup didn't result in compression12:35
tbf...or if lennart fixed those issues upstream already and a backport is missing12:35
RST38htbf: Nokia's hw is so different from the basic PC hw, that I doubt it matters12:35
xorAxAxShadowJK: well, it might be a misadaptation of the output12:35
RST38htbf: Although the hangup bug does look pretty generic12:35
xorAxAxred: you should try with headphones only12:35
tbfRST38h: so if you know the place where it happens you might want to compare with upstream12:36
RST38htbf: I just want it to work.12:36
ShadowJKthere's also another known bug in pulseaudio (was upstream for ages and still plagues distros) where pausing causes hangs :-)12:36
pupnikrst38h ali1234 what do you guys say to do if my game needs more cpu while streaming sound12:36
RST38htbf: Have done some investigation, as a courtesy, and to satisfy academic curiosity12:36
RST38htbf: But I am definitely NOT the right guy to fix this12:36
pupnikno resampling, no eq, and maybe no mixing12:37
tbfRST38h: did you report your findings at at least?12:37
RST38hpupnik: I would start by using the native sampling rate12:37
DocScrutinizer51hmm I see. dmix *is* broken. And PA is super12:37
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ShadowJKthere's eq?12:37
tbf(to give some PA hackers a chance to fix it?)12:38
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ShadowJKeq probably uses loads of CPU :)12:38
RST38htbf; Of course12:38
ShadowJKI remember that was like 10-20% on a P3-733MHz, which is way faster than n900 cpu12:38
DocScrutinizer51quite a smart bunch of people12:38
redxorAxAx: I use a 3,5mm jack to connect the phone to different audio devices and experience it that way. I do not use the phones own speakers to play back anything really. I'll test around how using just headphones in the 3,5mm jack when i get to home12:38
redand 100% sure the devices I plug it in are not responsible for the compression12:39
go1dfishanyone figure out TCP streams on pulseaudio on n900 yet?12:39
RST38hpupnik: Basically, you want to spare this feeble attempt at audio framework as much work as you can12:39
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xorAxAxred: ah, ok12:39
RST38hpupnik: I.e. native sampling rate, native sample format, etc12:39
xorAxAxred: sounds like a real bugger, file a bug!12:40
timeless_mbpRST38h: if you have stack traces  +  a rough set of steps to reproduce12:40
timeless_mbpyou can file a bug12:40
RST38h1. I filed the bug already12:40
RST38h2. I do not have stack traces (do not be silly)12:40
timeless_mbpwhy don't you have stack traces?12:40
timeless_mbpgetting a core file is not hard12:40
RST38h3. There is no crash, just a hangup12:40
timeless_mbpsure, you can create a core file from a running process12:41
* RST38h sighs12:41
timeless_mbpcores are a convenient format for transmitting data about a process12:41
timeless_mbpthey don't have to be from when the process *dies*12:41
redxorAxAx: I guess I will, but I think I'll try to get "hard" evidence about it. Record the fluctuations in dynamic range via some software and show comparison of audio graph12:41
RST38hBehold bug #552412:41
povbotBug program hangs on exit when media player is playing music12:41
timeless_mbp(gdb) help gcore12:41
timeless_mbpSave a core file with the current state of the debugged process.12:41
timeless_mbpArgument is optional filename.  Default filename is 'core.<process_id>'.12:41
johnxred, that would be totally awesome12:41
xorAxAxred: good idea ... probably calculate modulation and modulate white noise with it12:42
johnxI'd really be interested. For now I'll catch some sleep though12:42
xorAxAxcalculate compression12:42
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xorAxAxthen you can listen to the compression directly12:42
redthat goes out of my area of expertise again :P12:42
pupnikcdu johnx12:42
xorAxAxi could do it if you give me the source and the target file12:42
xorAxAx(or i could try :))12:42
redI was merely thinking of screenshotting the clean signal graph in goldwave and overlapping it on the played back signal same way12:43
RST38hActually, the beef is here:
povbotBug 5524: program hangs on exit when media player is playing music12:43
* timeless_mbp sighs12:43
timeless_mbpthat bug got lost internally a month ago (roughly)12:44
timeless_mbpand it was never going anywhere usefully12:44
* timeless_mbp cries12:44
RST38hWell, as I said, losing bugs and not fixing them is not my problem12:44
* timeless_mbp nods12:44
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timeless_mbpthat sucks12:44
RST38hI am not making money selling Maemo devices, your employer is12:44
woglinderst *g*12:44
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woglindejo hrw12:45
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RST38hIf you REALLY want me to fix it for you, I am available for consulting and yes, you will have to show the complete source code, under NDA if required12:46
hrwdid someone here sent back DDP device for replacement?12:48
timeless_mbphrw: i certainly haven't heard anyone mention doing that12:48
timeless_mbp(you asked yesterday)12:48
pupnik[AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: pulse.c:272:(pulse_connect) PulseAudio: Unable to connect: Connection refused12:48
timeless_mbpRST38h: so eero remembers the bug, he thinks there's some bug internally that's fixed12:48
pupnikso alsa is using pulse as hw backend?12:49
timeless_mbpsadly the bug you referenced is tied to an internal bug that got lost, he'll poke that bug hopefully today12:49
pupniknot other way around?12:49
timeless_mbppupnik: i think it's kinda alsa-lib uses pulse uses alsa-hw12:49
timeless_mbpbut i'm not certain12:49
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woglindeI hate this linker bug12:49
timeless_mbplinux audio is um... a mess12:49
pupnikok that makes sense12:49
pupnikthat s what i see12:50
timeless_mbpthere's a nice graphic of linux audio12:50
RST38htimeless: Do check if it has been fixed before or after 42.1112:50
redeemanwhich is ofcourse all irelelvant and useless12:50
DocScrutinizer51so a usual setup would look like app->alsa2PA->PAserver->PA2alsa-hwdriver12:51
redeemantimeless_mbp: that graph is made by a moron12:51
timeless_mbpRST38h: no, the internal bug was asking about the first update post sales12:51
pupnikty DocScrutinizer5112:51
RST38hOr, to make things easier, simply start playing music in the player, then run some game (fMSX or Speccy will do too) and try exiting it12:51
RST38hIf it hangs, the bug is still there12:51
timeless_mbpredeeman: now now, insulting people is never polite12:51
redeemantimeless_mbp: i could create 10 different pieces of software for osx, or windows, and make a graph that looks the same12:51
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ShadowJKthe default alsa device is probably set to the alsa pulse plugin.. it's like that on fedora12:52
redeemanthat specific graph is made by adobes linux guy to try and get noobs to think its not their fault adobes software suck12:52
* timeless_mbp can't remember where the bigger map is12:53
redeemanwe are literally talking about a guy that openly admitted he spent a year trying to fix a problem in flash where it tried to dlopen which is a symlink that only exists on some distributions12:53
redeemanthe fact that he would admit such a thing on his blog tells EVERYTHING12:53
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andre__well, that graph is misleading, as the arrows have several meanings12:53
timeless_mbpandre__: they don't mean "sends data to" ?12:54
redeemanthey mean CAN send data to12:54
ShadowJK"can talk to"12:54
redeemanif someone chooses to configure it like done there, he/she is obviously retarded12:54
andre__yeah, "can". exactly12:55
timeless_mbpredeeman: the graph was never a "a user will do this"12:55
ali1234the only way you could end up with that mess is if you compiled gentoo with all possible use flags :)12:55
timeless_mbpit was "these paths independently exist"12:55
redeemantimeless_mbp: the graph is "this is why we're having difficulties making audio work in flash!! its not our fault!!!oneoneone"12:55
suihkulokkiredeeman: regardless of who made the graph,  anyone claiming linux audio stack is innocent to flash audio problems is a delusion fanboy12:55
timeless_mbpredeeman: it is not12:55
timeless_mbpthe graph is "we at flash were recommended to use at various times each of the boxes in the picture"12:56
timeless_mbp"not all boxes exist on all computers"12:56
redeemansuihkulokki: yeah right, it only works for everyone else, surely adobe is having some magical requirements, all they had to do was support alsa12:56
ShadowJKdid they move audio to libflashsupport eventually?12:56
timeless_mbpredeeman: from the graph, it sounds like you can't get to Firewire Audio from Alsa :)12:56
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ShadowJKbecause it seems to use pulseaudio perfectly on my fedora box12:57
redeemantimeless_mbp: that is true, fortunately that is irellevant12:57
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timeless_mbpbecause no one would ever want to use firewire audio w/ a flash player?12:57
redeemanthat is so12:57
timeless_mbpwhile watching a streaming video on a projection screen?12:57
redeemani even use firewire audio myself12:57
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, the reality is worse, alsa in reality consists of 2-3 boxes there..12:57
timeless_mbpShadowJK: i know12:58
timeless_mbpi can't find the better map12:58
timeless_mbpgoogle hates me12:58
timeless_mbpmy search found a graphic i published12:59
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redeemanthe graph is also made by someone that doesn't know what they're doing12:59
timeless_mbpthat sucks12:59
timeless_mbpredeeman: no12:59
timeless_mbphe states very clearly what he was doing in the document12:59
redeemanbecause they appear to be talking about individual libraries12:59
redeemanwhich is completely irellevant12:59
redeemanwho cares if some specific daemon uses some library12:59
* timeless_mbp sigh12:59
redeemanfor instance jack/ffado12:59
timeless_mbpgo read the text12:59
redeemanthe graph says it all12:59
redeemanand his earlier blog posts even more13:00
timeless_mbpthe graph doesn't say "your linux system is configured like this"13:00
* timeless_mbp sighs13:00
ali1234the really funny thing about the graph is all that shit will happily coexist together, that is until flash opens the sound card directly with alsa, and blocks everything else13:00
redeemanso at some point, someone asked adobe to try and poke ffado directly?13:00
* joerg_42 sighs as well13:01
ShadowJKit was posted by mike, he was/is an ffmpeg developer too :-)13:01
_berto_what's up with fremantle extras-devel? I uploaded vagalume yesterday but I can't see it there13:03
_berto_and jrocha is having the same problem with seriesfinale13:03
ShadowJKI think people complained all weekend that stuff wasn't moving from autobuilder to repos?13:03
jrochaand I uploaded mine a few days ago now13:03
ShadowJKIt's clearly a conspiracy against opensource developers who cannot stand working on weekdays when the daystar is up ;)13:04
jrochaShadowJK, lol13:04
ShadowJKYou know what the best invention wrt flash is? nspluginviewer. It's awesome, when flash crashes, it doesn't take firefox with it.13:05
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redeemanShadowJK: no, the best part is not having flash13:05
redeemanits truly great13:05
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ShadowJKbut what if I want to wach live streaming starcrafts from korea13:07
ruskieredeeman, agreed ;)13:07
pupniki am looking at possibility to write to /dev/snd/ device from an application.  has anyone done this yet?13:11
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ShadowJKpupnik, it's not sensible13:12
pupnikpossibly statically compiling-in alsa so it can see the hwdevice instead of just pulse13:12
pupnikcan you tell me why?13:12
pupniki dont want to waste my time13:12
ShadowJKbasically you have to copy the code from alsa-lib that knows how to talk to the kernel part of alsa?13:12
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ShadowJKHave you tried asking alsa for hw:0.0 or whatever the syntax was...13:13
ShadowJKinstead of default device, which is probably some pulse plugin13:13
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pupnikwow, /dev/.udev/.db13:17
johnxit's *really* hidden13:17
pupniki don't see a asound.conf?13:18
johnxpupnik, I think pulseaudio has alsa open in blocking mode, so you'd need to kill it first (which will cause it to try and respawn)13:18
ShadowJKmplayer seems to open hw:0,0 though I hear no sound.. possibly mixer settings need adjusting (alsamixer -c 0)13:18
pupnikyes i can't get pulseaudio to not respawn even if i tell it not to in config13:18
ShadowJK(mplayer opens 'default' by default)13:18
pupnikalsamixer only knows pulse mixer device13:19
ShadowJKoh, if I plug in headphones I hear it :-)13:19
ShadowJKand pulseaudio isn't showing up in top, at all13:19
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pupnikmplayer -ao alsa:device=hw=0,0 is not complaining13:20
jiajiahello mastrer13:20
jiajiahow is ur food13:20
ShadowJKpupnik, -ao alsa:device=hw=0.013:21
pupnikoops ta13:21
ShadowJKmplayer uses , for itself13:21
ShadowJKMPlayer playing 2 channel 44.1kHz FLAC straight to alsa hw:0,0 mplayer is using 4188 kbytes of ram, about 4-5% of CPU.13:22
ShadowJKtotal cpu usage hovering around 9% USR 2% SYS13:23
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pupnikawesome ShadowJK13:24
pupnikworking here too13:24
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pupnikplaying from speaker too13:25
ShadowJKMPlayer playing the same file, through alsa default device. mplayer is using 4520 kbytes of ram, 5-6% CPU. pulseaudio at 4660 kbytes of ram, 10% CPU. Total cpu use 18% USR, 4% SYS13:25
PaulFertserjohnx: you see ^^^ probably community sometimes should think about reasoning for some technical decisions to be able to provide their users with a choice. Not everyone needs seamless sound rerouting between the internal "soundcard" and the BT headset.13:25
PaulFertserBut many people would like to lower the power consumption a bit along with having a few more cpu cycles for something useful.13:25
_berto_ShadowJK: the thing is that the diablo/chinook autobuilder works fine13:26
pupniklook at this, PaulFertser - we have the awesome ability to do exactly what i wanted - oops reboot13:26
_berto_all my packages are in extras except the one for fremantle, which hasn't even reached extras-devel13:26
ShadowJKpulseaudio on my 2830 MHz quad-core computer is using 3% CPU. Even if you just scale down the clockspeed, the n900 pulseaudio becomes relatively lean on cpu.13:26
ruskiewhy can't pulse be fixed to reduce the cycles?13:26
pupnikir is a cadillac system13:27
johnxPaulFertser, no argument. I mentioned the same thing more than an hour ago, but honestly I don't care enough to actually go anywhere with it13:27
ShadowJKruskie, apparently it's doing useful work13:27
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ruskiedefine usefull?13:27
pupnikrouting audio to different deevices with different needs13:27
zaheermecho cancellation13:27
ali1234software mixing and eq13:28
ShadowJKwhen playing with mplayer direct to hw:0.0 incoming calls would be completely silent, no other sounds can play13:28
zaheermper-app volume control13:28
pupnikthis is a wonderful happy day :)  thank you ShadowJK13:28
woglindepupnik I started qtnx stuff13:29
ShadowJKI wouldn't put direct alsa access in anything in extras, it's likely to break the phone app for sure :)13:29
johnxso how much overhead would dmix add to things?13:29
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woglindebut its hard because of the borken linkers in sdk13:29
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PaulFertserjohnx: i just wanted to highlight i was treated unfairly by "the community" this time. My question was valid and had enough meaning :|13:29
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ShadowJKjohnx, about the same iirc, but it's less visible because it gets added to mplayer's (and other programs') cpu use13:29
woglindePaulFertser clam down13:30
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woglindeyou dont get anything from it13:30
DocScrutinizer51guys. NO app should access hw:0.0 directly13:30
woglindeand I agree with you13:30
pupniki am getting speaker playback with no /usr/bin/pulseaudio present at all :))13:30
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zaheermpupnik, forget phone calls then13:31
pupnikwoglinde: i will buy you a nice dinner or equivalent13:31
pupnikzaheerm: yeah i might need to mention that the game will shutdown some other things13:31
RST38hHow do you get treated by the community btw?13:32
RST38hIs it like getting your finger caught in a door? =)13:32
pupnikbut i am so impressed now with nokia at the freedom to hit alsa.  thanks nokia.13:32
ShadowJKpupnik, maybe make it an option13:32
StskeepsRST38h: getting a finger stuck in a nokian door is called community commitment13:32
DocScrutinizer51even using OSS /dev/dsp is preferrable to hw:0.013:32
RST38hSts: Oh13:32
RST38hUsing /dev/dsp is preferable to pretty much everything else13:33
RST38hExcept maybe for /dev/audio13:33
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, it blocks just as good as /dev/dsp13:33
siriusnovawhats new to maemo world13:33
siriusnovaapps wise :D13:33
pupnik25% more performance in emulators just now13:34
woglindepupnik without pulse?13:34
siriusnovawhats this?13:34
valdynis maemo pulse using the dsp for mixing or the arm cpu?13:35
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: exactly :-P   Even better than /dev/dsp if you got alsa OSS compatibiöity layer configured correctly13:35
ShadowJKpupnik, what happens if you call? :-)13:35
ali1234pupnik: did you get psx4all yet?13:35
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pupnikhad it for a year or so, never got it built ali123413:35
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, the oss compatibility layer doesn't always work properly...13:35
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: I know13:35
pupnikali1234: where can i follow your work?13:35
ShadowJKf.ex mplayer directly accessing hw:0,0 is often better than through oss /dev/dsp alsa emu13:36
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ShadowJKIt's still better than alsa-pulse-alsa chain though13:36
ali1234pupnik: git://
ShadowJKin terms of performance and information lost13:36
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valdynShadowJK: hmm? mplayer isnt using the pulse output?13:37
DocScrutinizer51I suggest dmix:'plughw:0.0' nevertheless13:37
ShadowJKdunno about mplayer in extras-devel13:37
ShadowJKI built mine with diablo sdk, so no pulse support13:37
ShadowJKthe default mplayer config prioritizes alsa over pulse too13:38
pupniki am using mplayer from -devel13:38
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valdynlooking at the pulse config in the scratchbox pulse is configured to use a lot of cpu13:39
valdynwhere i doubt that even giving audible benefit, but what do i know13:39
valdynmaybe its different on the n900 though, i dont have one13:40
ShadowJKneed oprofile to figure out where the cpu is spent :)13:40
* pupnik gets out the acme magnet and points it at spain13:40
valdynresample-method = speex-fixed-213:41
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pupnikno, not brazil13:42
ali1234i recently tried with 48khz vs 44.1khz in SDL, and there was no difference in CPU usage (around 10% for both)13:42
valdynali1234: try a cheaper mixer, and less realtime13:43
ali1234the point is using native sample rate is supposed to use less CPU13:43
ali1234but in my case it didn't13:43
ali1234but i suspect a bug a psx4all tbh13:43
ali1234talk about spaghetti code. i wouldn't be surprised if the sample rate variable i changed never actually gets used13:44
DocScrutinizer51aiui PA *always* resamples13:45
ali1234well if that's true, it sucks13:46
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woglindehm so the dsp isnt used in n900 for sound?13:46
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ruskiehmm so couldn't pa modules be optimised to do all that but at a fraction of the cpu time they need now?13:47
DocScrutinizer51woglinde: for sure not for mixing13:48
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woglindetime for oprofile13:49
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woglindehm and let me guess on beagleboard its the same problem too13:50
DocScrutinizer51well. Maybe they implemented a hw-muxer D/A via the DSP13:51
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dl9pfwasn't that only for 2-3 codecs13:52
DocScrutinizer51or whoever coded the "card" driver13:52
hrw shows bad pixels group on my n90013:52
pupnikWing Commander is now totally playable.13:53
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woglindepupnik cool13:53
ali1234pupnik: on what emulator?13:53
ali1234i see13:53
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ali1234port UAE, it has better games :P13:53
pupnikdouble the framerate at least13:53
pupnikpulse was killing the cpu cache13:54
nomishrw: huh, these look weird. Shouldn't defective pixels be permanently on (or permanently off) 100%?13:54
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pupniki am guessing13:54
ali1234psx4all likes to kill the cpu cache too, as part of the dynarec13:54
ali1234it actually manually clears it regularly13:54
pupnikthat might be something to test, brb13:54
hrwnomis: or pernament lit or subcolored etc13:55
RST38hpupnik: Have you simply turned the sound off?13:55
hrwSpeedEvil: one week did not finished - I am sending it to DDP13:55
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ali1234RST38h: no he's using alsa directly now (and blocking all other apps from making sound in the process)13:56
RST38hali: sounds good to me13:57
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* RST38h failed to use alsa on fremantle though13:57
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ali1234i tried disabling sound completely, it did not give any magical 25% speed up for me :)13:57
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pupnikdifferent emu, different results13:57
pupniki should not have spoken so carelessly13:57
pupnikthis is like a weight off shoulders.  i feel 5 pounds lighter.13:58
* SpeedEvil feels 20 pounds lighter.13:59
* RST38h should try it as well13:59
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woglindeautobuilder please copy faster my libs14:07
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derfwoglinde: It's still broken, AFAICT.14:09
derfI've been waiting two days.14:10
kwekhey.. im trying to connect sip over openvpn but it seems that an old bug is still active on maemo 5 where the sip program binds itself on the wlan ip.14:10
kwekOn the n800 there is workaround setting local-ip-address using mc-account but that program doesnt exist on the n900..  Any ideas? bug:
povbotBug 1860: Won't pass through VPN14:10
infobotsomebody said log was for #openmoko-cdevel only. Maybe you meant "~logs" ?14:10
_berto_derf: but it works for maemo <= 414:10
derf_berto_: That's... less than helpful.14:10
woglinde~seen x-fade14:11
infobotx-fade is currently on #maemo (2d 14h 16m 57s), last said: 'irssi is in extras-testing'.14:11
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infobotAll conversations are logged to, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged.14:18
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t_s_ough, kinda worriesome that the thing i do most on my tablet lately is freecell...14:32
adeuslike most on the pc14:32
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* VDVsx yawns 14:35
wazd_n800VDVsx, mooning :)14:36
VDVsxwazd_n800, morning :)14:36
Jaffalo VDVsx14:36
VDVsxJaffa, hey14:37
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meceCan someone point me to some information on icons in maemo5? I thought i might make an icon for a program.14:38
wazd_n800mece, well, they are .pngs)14:39
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Ceronis it safe to install quake3 from14:40
Cerondevel-extras :\14:40
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meceany particular sizes?14:41
Ceronim afraid il brick the phone :O14:41
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meceCeron didn't brick mine. You need the data files. Open arena works straight away.14:41
Ceroncould someone tell me if installing quake3 on the phone is safe?14:41
ruskieCeron, you can always reflash :)14:41
Ceronmece: got any instructions14:41
wazd_n800mece, 64x64, 48x4814:41
Ceronruskie: i dont want to reflash it >:(14:41
Ceroni got work stuff on it14:41
mecewazd_n800, thanks14:41
ruskiewazd_n800, probably 32x32 as well ?14:41
SinofEnvy[13:24:50] <redeeman>
SinofEnvyI think that's a great post14:42
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meceCeron, well as I said I've had no problems with q3 or open arena.14:42
Ceronmece: tell me what i need :P14:42
Ceronto do14:42
meceCeron, you need Quake 314:42
wazd_n800ruskie, don't thiink  that maemo 5 uses it14:42
mecefor open arena you need nothing besides an N90014:42
SinofEnvyI had an iphone (I wasn't as fanatic as described in the post, I quickly saw the shortcomings, hence when the N900 came out and it was all opensource and linux-y and all that I nerdgasmed) but it all sounds very familiar. when I got my N900, I spoke to a friend who has an iphone and he kept going on about how the iphone was superior, had a "sharper screen" etc etc14:43
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Ceronmece: aint it freeware all14:43
Ceroncan i get it all from the repos?14:43
Ceroninstall quake3 from repository14:43
ruskieSinofEnvy, lol... did he actually look at the N900?14:44
wazd_n800ceron, q3 data-files aren't free14:44
DocScrutinizer51iPhone sharper screen ... muhahahahaaaa14:45
derfThey have fewer pixels so you can see the nice, sharp edges between each one.14:45
meceCeron, you can get the demo version data files here:
SinofEnvyruskie, yes... but besides the fact that he's a pretty big asshat in general and isn't that technologically inclined, he was completely relucant to reason14:46
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wazd_n800HTC Nexus 1 approved by FCC14:47
SinofEnvyyeah, I said, "you do realize the N900's resolution is higher?" "yeah, but the iphone still has a sharper screen" "uh, do you know what resolution ENTAILS?" "yeah, but the iphone still has a better screen"14:47
siriusnovSo any new apps out for the N900?14:47
wazd_n800Eldar fails twice a day14:47
meceCeron, install quake from repository, copy the pak0.pk3 from the demoq3 directory where you put the demo, to your /home/user/baseq3/ directory on the phone.14:48
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wazd_n800siriusnov, have you made any recently?14:48
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siriusnovi ported an app14:48
siriusnovmore like recompiled :>14:48
mecesiriusnov, l33t you is.14:48
siriusnovi know im amazing14:48
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wazd_n800siriusnov, most developers are putting a bit more effort in porting, that's why the process is not so fast14:49
siriusnovi know14:50
siriusnovanyone tried any N800 apps14:50
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Ceronmece: is it safe14:50
meceCeron, Open Arena is a free game using the Q3 engine. You can download that complete game from the repository. It's 300Mb.14:50
Ceronto put it in home user?14:50
meceCeron, well it worked for me without problems.14:50
Ceronsomeone said it should be in /opt/14:50
Ceroneverything :O14:50
Ceronits not optified!14:51
derf/home and /opt are on the same partition.14:51
meceCeron, /home/user is the same partition as /opt, since /opt is actually /home/opt14:51
derfIt's a mess, but it's not unsafe.14:51
derfHalf the N900 packages seem to be a mess, so this is no different.14:51
meceCeron, Open Arena is Optified.14:51
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fluxheh, open arena takes 300M or so, it wouldn't fit to the root partition in any case :)14:52
Cerondoes open arena support multiplayer with pc gamers?14:52
* cehteh wonders if that would be one reason to reject packages from apples app-store "No we dont sell your crap" :P14:52
redeemanhmm is still damn slow14:52
Ceronare there serverlists on open arena14:53
Ceronso i wont hafto play against bots14:53
pupnikyou probably dont want to play vs pc users14:53
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PolarFoxThey would be so pwnd14:54
jeremiahping RST38h14:54
VDVsxlardman|gone, ping14:54
wazd_n800qwerty12, ping14:56
wazd_n800let's ping each other :D14:57
ruskiemaybe someone will setup a n900-users only server ;)14:57
wazd_n800ruskie, yeah, so I can burn you all easily :D14:57
RST38hhere you are14:59
jeremiahI have been away14:59
hrw~curse quim for way how he handle brainstorm related bugzilla bugs14:59
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, quim for way how he handle brainstorm related bugzilla bugs !14:59
wazd_n800RST38h, heya14:59
jeremiahFinally back where there is internet14:59
hrwbug 685214:59
povbotBug No way to get notifications about changes in brainstorm14:59
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hrwquim responce: to track changes in brainstorm use brainstorm.14:59
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VDVsxhrw, there's a brainstorm for that :P15:00
hrwbut there is no fucking way to track changes in brainstorm15:00
hrwVDVsx: I just wonder when I will end reporting bugs in maemo just because it becomes more and more waste of my time15:00
VDVsxhrw, that's not a bug,IMO15:01
hrwbrainstorm now looks like product of teenager which got one day for coding and then moved to other stuff15:01
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cosmothey should implement flashing over bluetooth.. i've lost my cable somewhere15:02
wazd_n800VDVsx, Ii'll try to send you keynote and ps3 profiles today btw15:02
VDVsxhrw, you can suggest changes, there's threads at the ML and TMO about brainstorm15:02
VDVsxwazd_n800, thanks15:02
wazd_n800cosmo, over ether :)15:02
VDVsxhrw, note that in part I agree with you15:03
wazd_n800VDVsx, anything else? want some icecream? :P15:03
VDVsxhrw, but we can try to improve things, at least15:03
VDVsxwazd_n800, ins't a bit cold for icecream ?15:03
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wazd_n800VDVsx, yeah, whooping -16C15:04
hrwVDVsx: anyway for some time I will be off from maemo tracking15:04
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PaulFertserwazd_n800: oh yeah, finally there's some normal winter weather here.15:06
wazd_n800PaulFertser, kind of)15:07
VDVsxwazd_n800, bruuuu, that's a lot of cold, I'll died in the first second I put my feet in the street15:07
VDVsxlunch time, bbl15:07
wazd_n800VDVsx, hehe, welcome to mother russia :D15:07
PaulFertserVDVsx: and bring your bicycle along, let's have a ride.15:08
wazd_n800PaulFertser, I'm gonna try to cycle tomorrow)15:09
* ruskie is happy to have some normal winter weather here as well15:10
AndrewBlackanyone been getting alot of unable to open file /usr/share/icons/hicolor/.icon-theme.cacheL file exists errors on like 30 things I´ve installed?15:12
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woglinde~seen pupnik15:13
infobotpupnik is currently on #maemo. Has said a total of 103 messages. Is idling for 20m 12s, last said: 'you probably dont want to play vs pc users'.15:13
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wazd_n800~seen  qwerty1215:14
infobotqwerty12 <n=faheem@Maemo/community/contributor/qwerty12> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 10d 18h 50m 44s ago, saying: 'Khertan: "As of hildon 2.2, HildonDialog has been deprecated in favor of GtkDialog. "'.15:14
ruskiehmm anyone tried getting pavucontrol or some other volume control app onto the n900 yet?15:15
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DocScrutinizer51ruskie: pshhhh, that's audio domain ;-)15:21
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pupnikhows the fight woglinde15:26
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Disconnectgrr stupid colloquy grabbed focus :(15:35
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pupnikJaffa: yo got a nice 480p mencoder line?15:45
Jaffapupnik: tablet-encode -p n900 foo out.avi ;-)15:47
woglindepupnik I have debs ready15:48
woglindebut not in fremantle, because aubuilder dont copies15:48
jebbapupnik: check the second script here:
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pupnikahh ty15:49
pupnikwoglinde: can i test? :)15:49
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pupnikty jebba Jaffa15:50
woglindepupnik yeah let me upload them15:50
pupnikwow, you prefer low bitrates jebba :)15:51
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Jaffapupnik: There's also a '-hq' mode in tablet-encode now. That, two-pass and the `n900' preset look fantastic at 800x480 on an N900 from a 720p source.15:53
pupnikwat i was hopin for ty15:53
jebbapupnik: i have only used that thing twice now. This morning I was like WTF am I using h264 and not theora?  So probably going to re-do it too  ;)15:54
jebbaya +2 pass...15:54
woglindepupnik ->
woglindeI am off for half an hour15:54
jebbawoglinde: are those all free?15:54
jebbafree software?15:54
woglindejebba jupp15:54
jebbayou rule15:54
pupnikwoglinde is St. Niklaus :)15:54
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jebbawoglinde:   :)15:55
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woglindeunfornatly neatx is much behind in features than x2go15:56
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woglindeand x2go breaks the protocol and only supports own client15:56
woglindeand the sourcecode of x2go client-qt is ugly15:56
woglindeokay till later15:56
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redeemanso.. should icons be copied to /usr/share/pixmaps/usr/share/icons/blabla or was there some place in /opt i can copy them? or does it respect the X-Icon-Path in the .desktop files?15:57
woglinderedeeman hm dont know if maemo-optify works with icons too15:58
woglindeso now I am really off15:59
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jebbathat worked for me. Basically it puts them in /opt, but symlinks them under  usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/15:59
jebbayes it doe.15:59
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redeemanjebba: what do you mean with "yes it does" ?15:59
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jebbamaemo-optify works with icons16:00
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jebbacheck that pastebin for a working example of icons and .desktop file.   I think you need them at those sizes too.16:01
redeemanso then i don't need to symlink them?16:01
redeemanthe pastebin had some makefile stuff?16:01
jebbathat is from debian/rules16:01
DocScrutinizer51 /usr and /var should move to mmcblk0 eventually nevertheless16:01
jebbaredeeman: i can put up the whole file if you want16:02
redeemanwell if you symlink it then you cant really say that its optification16:02
jebbaredeeman: that's what maemo-optify does for many things, such as /usr/bin.16:02
jebbajust the symlinks are under /usr, but the files themselves are under /opt.   Note, i based most of how i did it on VDVsx's supertux and i think he knows WTF he is doing.16:03
AndrewBlackI wish I could remember what computer I´m online with AndrewFBlack login lol16:04
VDVsxjebba, fyi supertux doesn't use symlinks, everthing is installed directly under /opt16:04
VDVsxand I recommend that for any app :P16:04
VDVsxmaemo-optify is for lazy people ;)16:04
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jebbaVDVsx: ah, thx for correction, sry.16:05
VDVsxjebba, If IIRC your rules files this is very easy to change there16:06
jebbasee, i told you he knows wtf he's doing  ;)16:06
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jebbai just put maemo-optify in the rules ;)   probably just a PATH=/opt  i imagine.16:06
VDVsxjebba, most cases yes16:07
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jebbaby the way, now that you're here, uh, what's the run fast key in supertux? haah16:07
VDVsxjebba, easy and not need to call maemo-optify16:07
jebbaok, will do it that way now16:07
redeemanVDVsx: well if i only touch /opt, how do i get it to pick up my icons etc?16:07
jebbajust ramping myself up on the correct ways and i thought it was maemo-optify, which is superfkn easy16:07
VDVsxjebba, depends in your kb setup, you can check that inside the game16:07
VDVsxjebba, by default is x16:08
jebbaya, it just said some keycode. "standard" keyboard here.16:08
jebbaok thx16:08
jebbawill let my son know ;)16:08
VDVsxredeeman, well, the icons/symlinks to the icons must be in the rootfs16:08
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VDVsxredeeman, the menu icon only, of course16:09
VDVsxsame for the desktop file16:09
redeemanthey really should have included an additional search path16:10
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VDVsxredeeman, those are very small files, not a problem at all16:10
redeemanits more the annoyance :)16:10
redeemanVDVsx: can  you also tell me the bare minimum i can get away with with icons? i've made a 64x64, should that just be placed directly in /usr/share/icons? its in png format16:11
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VDVsxredeeman, IMO that's not hard to do, and you only need to do this one time16:11
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VDVsxredeeman, maemo5 right ?16:12
redeemanyup on N90016:12
konttori_work_nolizardo, can you verify that where is an optified version of python? What is the version number that should be optified?16:12
VDVsxredeeman, 64x64 -> /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/16:12
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xorAxAxJaffa: where can i get tablet-encode?16:12
lizardokonttori_work_no: the version in testing is already optified16:12
lizardoextras-testing, I mean16:12
redeemanVDVsx: where do the different sizes gets used?16:12
VDVsxred, 48x48 ->/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/hildon/16:12
redeeman64 is desktop, so where else?16:12
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konttori_work_nolizardo, but not in the extras proper16:13
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lizardokonttori_work_no: yes... partially because there is some know bugs with it, see MB#6686 and M#688616:14
lizardokonttori_work_no: so I would suggest waiting for these bugs to be sorted out before pushing it to extras proper16:15
konttori_work_noso, are those blocker bugs?16:15
konttori_work_noWhen can we have those fixed?16:15
xorAxAxbug 688616:15
povbotBug pymaemo-optify should not attempt to migrate files on upgrade16:15
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konttori_work_noI'm mainly interested, as python takes awfully lot of precious rootfs space16:15
xorAxAxbug 668616:16
povbotBug pymaemo-optify breaks after install-uninstall cycle16:16
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lizardokonttori_work_no: sure , we are already taking a look on both, but I can't say yet the exact timeline, but it will be for sure ASAP due to the priority of the bug16:16
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xorAxAxJaffa: is there a repo with it in it?16:17
konttori_work_nolizardo,    6686 is fixed, (but not released?)16:17
konttori_work_noso, you have only one to fix?16:17
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redeemanVDVsx: do i need 48x48? im only really interrested in having icon on the "desktop"16:17
lizardokonttori_work_no: yes, but the other bug is quite important and needs to be fixed before packages hit extras (IMHO)16:17
DocScrutinizer51VDVsx: which time in system init /home gets mounted?16:17
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JaffaxorAxAx: It runs on the desktop. There is a Debian package:
lopzhi :I16:18
JaffaxorAxAx: Alternatively, just unpack the tarball & run it.16:18
xorAxAxJaffa: i want the repo on my desktop16:18
xorAxAxfor automatical upgrade16:19
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konttori_work_nolizardo, thanks! And good luck with it!16:19
jebbaVDVsx: thx, that was pretty painless. just as easy as maemo-optify.  I suppose the maemo-optify would just be good for apps that don't cooperate with $DESTDIRs or something.16:20
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GAN900Ugh, missed DHL by all of 5 seconds.16:20
X-Fadelol ;)16:20
GAN900Those guys don't wait around.16:21
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VDVsxredeeman, actually I can remember any other place where these icons are used, probably is legacy stuff from maemo4, better check the docs, I'm not a encyclopedia of maemo, that's qwerty12 :P16:21
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Ceronofftopic question, anyone know of a cheap ddwrt capable wlan router16:23
hrwquestion: where I can find out which exactly GCC/Glibc/binutils combo is used for maemo5?16:23
xorAxAxJaffa: ok, got it from the multimedia repo16:23
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X-Fadewoglinde: hi16:23
woglindex-fade did you already fix the autobuilder for fremantle?16:23
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woglindeit dont copies the packages in place16:24
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X-Fadewoglinde: looking at it. Which packages exactly?16:24
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woglindex-fade all since friday16:24
X-Fadebtw, this always happens when I'm traveling. Don't know why :)16:24
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woglindemaybe a problem with the garage failure16:25
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X-Fadewoglinde: I see that a lot of packages now show up in the packages interface. Which means they are in the repo.16:26
jebbaflatzebra_0.1.3-2/   is an example of one that isn't making it over for about 7 hours now.  X-Fade.   Build times are reasonable now though  :)16:26
jebbaX-Fade: well, i'm trying to build burgerspace and it needs the dev libs from flatzebra, and it ain't finding them.16:27
woglindehm lets see for nxcomp16:27
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jebbacool   CONFIG_LOGO_LINUX_CLUT224=y  works too ;)16:29
woglindehm nope nxcomp dont shows up16:30
GAN900X-Fade, it's those timebomb scripts you keep setting up to keep yourself emplpyeed. :P16:30
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X-FadeOk I found the issue.16:32
X-FadeDue to the garage issue over the weekend the sign process was stuck.16:32
woglindehm as I thought16:32
woglindewithout known it was sign process16:32
X-FadeSyncing -devel now.,16:32
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GAN900Nokia should really have saved on the Internationsl Overnight shipping and spent that money on a freaking warranty.16:35
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* GAN900 wonders which idiot decided the 1 week warranty was a good idea.16:36
SinofEnvythere's only a 1wk warranty on the N900?16:36
SinofEnvydamn, gotta throw it out of my window earlier than I thought then :( ONLY LITTLE TIME LEFT16:36
GAN900For DDP devices.16:36
jeremiahWhy bother with a warranty when you're just gonna break it anyway?16:38
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SinofEnvyYou... don't actually think I was gonna break it, do you?16:38
RST38hmoo indeed16:38
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_berto_the maemo autobuilder is working16:40
_berto_guys, what's the best way to clone an N900 ? backup + restore ?16:40
X-Fadeextras-devel has been synched/signed now. Everything should be available now.16:40
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_berto_X-Fade: yes it is16:42
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X-Fade_berto_: Good ;)16:43
mgedminwhat are the known hardware issues we should check during the 1 week DDP warranty period?16:44
mgedminmic, wifi?16:44
jebbaX-Fade: thx :)16:45
X-Fademgedmin: mic was not an issue. Was fmradio doing something wrong.16:45
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_berto_mgedmin: I'm going to clone my N900 asap and test it during this week16:46
jebbanew burgerspace, coming up! ;)16:46
Stskeeps_berto_: rsync -aHx / /sdcard is what i use .. and copying /dev16:47
mgedminStskeeps, that won't work as well when the two N900s have different firmware versions, I suppose16:47
_berto_Stskeeps: :D16:47
_berto_Stskeeps: I'd do that on a destkop computer16:47
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_berto_ok, vagalume is working fine in extras-devel16:48
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_berto_so ...16:48
Stskeepsmgedmin: and making a ubifs of it16:49
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hrwmgedmin: all16:50
VDVsx_berto_, great, but you need some new shiny icons :D16:50
_berto_VDVsx: yes es :D16:50
_berto_we have a new logo, that's something16:50
VDVsx_berto_, if you need some help, ask in the design forum at talk, there's some folks there willing to help :)16:51
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hrwmgedmin: check screen for bad pixels, check does tv-out works, does fm radio receiver/transmitter works16:52
hrwmgedmin: does it makes/receives gsm calls/messages, does both cameras works16:53
_berto_I guess liqtorch is the easiest way to check for dead pixels ?16:53
jebba_berto_: installing it now. Looks cool. One small note, N900 isn't mentioned in description, just previous models, fwiw16:53
_berto_jebba: ah, you're probably right16:53
woglindejebba did you test the nx packages?16:54
jebbawoglinde: not yet, will do16:54
jebbai'm not even sure what I have for NX in fedora 1216:54
jebbabeen years since i played with NX16:54
woglindejebba hm okay16:54
woglindeI will wait for pupnik16:54
woglindedont make your self some stress16:55
jebbaheh. i'll see what i can figure out ;)16:55
jebbai just remember setting it up before (using *primarily* free software) was about as much fun as  Has it gotten better?16:55
GAN900X-Fade, nope, there's also a hardware failure.16:56
GAN900mgedmin, mic, WiFi, dead/stuck pixels.16:57
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jebbawoglinde: should I use the ones here?
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woglindejebba with ubuntu packages yes16:58
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woglindejebba yes you could take these16:58
woglindeI am right now feeding the builder16:58
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jukey_berto_: great news! :-)16:59
jebbawoglinde: fyi, those are not optified.16:59
jukeyi still use since it's launch16:59
jukey<- no. 45 *hrhr*17:00
Gadgetoid_iMacGAN900: I don't know if I could *see* a stuck/dead pixel on the N900 screen17:00
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_berto_jukey: :)17:01
jebba_berto_: by default, no service is there in preferences, just  Also to import the servers list file, I dont see one (didnt hunt around, but it wasnt in the directory it opened by default)17:02
GAN900Gadgetoid_iMac, how about several?17:02
Gadgetoid_iMacGAN900: That I might notice17:03
Gadgetoid_iMacTook me too long to notice the one on my N810 though17:03
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GAN900RST38h, can you downgrade the package and app icons to the old ones?17:03
jebbawoglinde: missing something?
GAN900New toolbar icons are so much better.17:04
woglindeoh no17:04
woglindeping x-fade17:04
woglinde~ping x-fade17:04
infobotpong x-fade17:04
_berto_jebba: you have to write your own servers file17:04
RST38hGAN: Not getting it, explain17:05
woglindejebba grap the libxmuu manually from sdk17:05
_berto_jebba: is the question "how can I listen to in the n900?"17:05
woglindeI have to beg x-fade to put them into extras as for diablo17:05
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arachnistis there a way to make the media indexer read tags from .flac files?17:06
jebba_berto_: no17:06
_berto_jebba: you only need to import a servers file if you want to add a new server17:07
RST38hGAN: Which icons do you like better: the new ones (from the previous build), the old ones (from the old Chinook build) or the Hildon ones (in the current build I uploaded)?17:07
jebba_berto_: "only"17:07
jebbai suggest having it there by default, no?17:08
GAN900RST38h, the blue books icon.17:08
_berto_having what ? is already there by default17:08
_berto_you don't need to import it17:08
jebbawell, then change your summary:17:08
jebba"Client for and compatible radio serv"17:08
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RST38hGAN: That will be the Chinook icon set17:08
GAN900Just for the application and package icon, though.17:09
_berto_jebba: well, for the N900 you are probably right17:09
GAN900and for a while in Diablo, too.17:09
RST38hGAN: Ah! The app icon!17:09
* RST38h gets it now17:09
woglindejebba I put xmuu now into the dir17:09
_berto_I have the same summary in all versions17:09
RST38hGAN: wazd agreed to do a decent app icon for the fbreader17:09
jebbabasically, people have accounts. They see that app based on summary, the download it, go to preferences, can't enter account (and/or dont even know WTF is the difference between and  = they think it's broken17:09
RST38hGAN: Check with him on the progress17:09
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GAN900The old one was plenty decent imho.17:10
jebba_berto_: PITA to add things like that tap tap tap. Plus no clue where to get them. How would a user know?17:10
RST38hGAN: It was ok but too amateurish IMHO17:10
GAN900Hrm, hildon-home bug.17:10
GAN900RST38h, very spottable, though.17:10
GAN900OK, can somebody test a bug for me?17:11
GAN9001. Choose a 3rd party applications.17:11
RST38hGAN: Anyways, check with wazd: I am sure he can do something very similar but way more professional17:11
_berto_jebba: you're probably right, I can change the package description for the N900 version17:11
jebbawoglinde: installed OK now :)17:11
jebba_berto_: woo hoo! thx  :)17:11
woglindejebba jupp17:11
redeemanVDVsx: ping17:11
GAN9002. Add a shortcut for the application to the desktop.17:12
jebbaoh, well, actually, i woo hoo'd too early.  Why not add in there too? heh.17:12
VDVsxredeeman, pong17:12
_berto_that's in the FAQ17:12
GAN9003. Remove the application with h-a-m or apt-get.17:12
GAN9004. Note that the shortcut is now gone.17:12
redeemanVDVsx: i made the symlinks, but it does not show the icons, do i need anything more than a 64x64 in scalable? also, should i put them as subdir of apps or hildon inside scalable?17:12
_berto_I expect many people to use too, but without permission from I prefer not to ship the config file17:12
GAN9005. Reinstall said application.17:12
GAN9006. Try to readd the shortcut.17:13
VDVsxredeeman, you've a .desktop file right ?17:13
redeemanVDVsx: i do17:13
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jebbawoglinde: fyi, in fedora 12 repo I see nx qtnx nxcl17:13
GAN900RST38h, for your next trick, can you make zlib not suck? *g*17:14
jebbaya, make them read the FAQ, lazy users!17:14
jebbaclicking on your URL in the ABOUT box doesn't work, FYI  _berto_17:14
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VDVsxredeeman, you're talking about the app link ?, there's a bug in hildon desktop, kill hildon-dektop or reboot and check if the problem is in your package17:14
_berto_jebba: I know, that's to be fixed17:14
jebbanor is there a way to copy it17:14
VDVsxredeeman, it happens a lot of times when installing apps17:15
jebba_berto_: if it's just a matter of including 1 file why not ease the pain?17:15
redeemanVDVsx: well yes, i wish to have my icon displayed on my shortcut on the "desktop", i made a .desktop entry and put symlink to in /usr/share/applications/hildon, and made an icon, which i symlinked into /usr/share/icons/hicolor/apps17:16
redeemanVDVsx: only 64x64 though17:16
redeemanpng format17:16
VDVsxredeeman, btw , did you updated the icon cache ?17:16
redeemani tyhink it does automagically17:16
VDVsxin your postinstall script17:16
redeemanbecause after updating the directories, it loads the application menu very slow17:16
redeemanbtw, i have no postinst script, im doing this manually17:17
VDVsxredeeman, so better restart and check if isn't the bug striking again17:17
redeemanjust kill hildon-desktop?17:17
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redeemani think that reset it, lol :)17:18
VDVsxredeeman, yes you can do it, but I recommend a restart17:18
redeemanit rebooted by killing hildon-desktop17:18
_berto_jebba: so what do you suggest?17:19
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redeemanbut icons are still not there17:19
VDVsxredeeman, check if you've the correct name in the .desktop file17:20
redeemani do17:21
RST38hGAN: what zlib?17:21
redeemani assume its just the filename without .png?17:21
redeemanwhich it seems to be for other packages17:21
hrwmgedmin (and others with DDP): read that17:21
VDVsxredeeman, yes17:21
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VDVsxredeeman, where did you put the symlink ?17:23
redeeman/usr/share/icons/hicolor/apps  and /usr/share/applications/hildon17:23
redeemanscalable aswell17:23
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VDVsxcorrect path is: usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/17:24
redeemanyes that's right17:24
redeemani thought that didn't matter17:24
redeemanokay, thanks, will try17:24
* RST38h received the DDP device but cannot test it =(17:25
hrwRST38h: missed with courier?17:25
RST38hhrw: no, it came to my US address17:25
RST38hhrw: Will only get it around Jan 717:25
hrwso after 1st week17:26
GAN900RST38h, libzlibrary.17:27
RST38hah that17:27
RST38hwhat do you want fixed there?17:27
jebbawoglinde: isn't a nxclient binary needed?  trying to get it running with nxproxy17:27
woglindejebba qtnx is the nxclient17:28
GAN900RST38h, make it not ridiculously slow. ;)17:28
woglindefree software17:28
RST38hGAN: Feels ok to me17:28
jebba_berto_: my suggestion is to include the serverlist or whatever it is too. So in the dropdown menu you can select whichever client you want.17:28
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* RST38h fixed a crash in libzlibrary and integrated patches from qwerty17:28
GAN900It's slow to render.17:28
GAN900Look at it switching to fullscreen.17:29
jebbawoglinde: got a 1 line HOWTO?  I'm doing it based on fedora docs, but there appear to be different binaries (e.g. no nxclient on n900=17:29
woglinderst hm which bug in zlib?17:29
GAN900Or scrolling pages.17:29
RST38hyea, but it is ok17:29
woglindejebba openconsole and type qtnx17:29
RST38hscrolling is no problem to me, switching to full screen takes a short moment, but it is not a showstopper17:29
_berto_jebba: I don't want to block the Vagalume API key if they find out that I'm providing it for an unauthorized mobile phone client17:29
fiferboyRST38h: Did you change the pressure settings when enabling tap pager on your device?17:30
RST38hfiferboy: not the default ones17:30
woglindehi fiferboy17:30
RST38hOh, for myself? Yes, I had to change them a bit17:30
GAN900RST38h, yeah, I agree. Was mostly elbowing you about spending a bunch of time rewriting the whole lin "while you're at it". ;)17:30
RST38hit still does not well differentiate between paging and list selection though17:30
fiferboyRST38h: Do you recall what they are to work for you?17:30
fiferboyhi woglinde17:30
RST38hGAN: No chance, unfortunately.17:30
woglinde~curse slowness of garage17:31
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, slowness of garage !17:31
infobotGAN900 meant: RST38h, yeah, I agree. Was mostly elbowing you about spending a bunch of time rewriting the whole lib "while you're at it". ;)17:31
RST38hGAN: And if there is any chance, I would rather redo the dialogs in Maemo version to use scrollable list17:31
GAN900RST38h, yeah, that was the main thrust of the joke. ;)17:31
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woglindeokay ist child pickup time17:34
woglindetill later17:34
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hrwbye all17:35
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achipaanyone used an apt proxy with their NIT ? Like approx or apt-proxy ?17:36
jebbawoglinde: ya, but that's just for the client, not the server, no?  I'm thinking ala: run nxproxy or somesuch on the n900, qtnx on laptop to connect to n900. But its been years since I've nx'd ;)17:36
jebbaah ciao woglinde17:36
RST38hfiferboy: I can't remember right away17:36
achipaextras(-*) work fine but the nokia ones do some weird funk, spitting out 403 forbiddens17:37
fiferboyRST38h: Ah, okay17:37
fiferboyI remember I had to make some changes for diablo to get it to work17:37
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* RST38h does not see the Maemo config tab in 0.10.7_517:38
RST38hHave I missed something?17:38
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fiferboyRST38h: I see the maemo tab17:39
RST38hfiferboy: between which tabs?17:39
fiferboyAt the very end17:39
RST38hafter what tab?17:39
fiferboyI just updated from qwerty's version to yours, but I think there is an option missing that you added?17:39
fiferboyRST38h: After Web17:40
RST38hI do not see it here.17:40
fiferboyI think something may have not updated cleanly for me, though17:40
fiferboyI will uninstall and reinstall clean and let you know17:40
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redeemanVDVsx: how do i update the icon cache?17:42
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GAN900fiferboy, libzlib didn't update from h-a-m here.17:42
MaceG1maybe some day there will be mer for G117:42
redeemanbecause it still doesn't work17:42
GAN900apt-get upgrade17:42
fiferboyGAN900: Looks like that was my problem too17:42
RST38hGAN: is it a problem with packaging?17:42
RST38hjeremiah, are you around? Could you explain?17:43
VDVsxredeeman, /usr/bin/gtk-update-icon-cache17:43
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GAN900RST38h, likely.17:44
fiferboyRST38h: Did you take libzlibrary out of user/* ?17:44
RST38hit is libs now17:44
RST38his that wrong?17:44
GAN900RST38h, is the libzlib version high enough in the depends?17:44
fiferboyIf I uninstall and reinstall, it pulls the correct version of libzlibrary17:44
RST38hweird like hell17:44
GAN900RST38h, no, that's correct.17:44
fiferboyRST38h: Well, that is where it *should* be, but it was a user package before17:44
RST38hI know17:45
RST38hand it was wrong17:45
fiferboyMaybe HAM doesn't want to update a user/* package witha non-user/* ?17:45
GAN900The depends in the FBReader package should handle everything.17:45
GAN900fiferboy, ah!17:45
GAN900Yes, I think that's it.17:45
RST38hX-Fade, jeremiah, what will you say?17:45
jeremiahRST38h: Hi17:46
RST38hfiferboy: do you still see the Maemo tab in config?17:46
RST38hjeremiah: we have got two packages17:46
RST38hjeremiah: one is in user/utilities, another one in libs17:46
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jeremiahfor fbreader?17:46
fiferboyRST38h: No17:46
LuciusMarehello,has anybody ported any clone of liero on maemo (5) already?17:46
RST38hjeremiah: looks like updating the user/utilities package does not lead to updating libs one17:46
RST38hfiferboy: somethign is broken then. will have to check at home tonight17:47
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RST38hjeremiah; ALTHOUGH, the previous version of the libs package was marked user/libs17:47
redeemanVDVsx: it still doesn't work, are you sure it only requires 64x64 and that symlinks work?17:47
jeremiahWhat package are we referring to?17:47
RST38hfbreader / libzlibrary17:48
jeremiahah, okay.17:48
jebbawoglinde: fedora 12 also includes freenx-client freenx-server packages fyi17:48
jeremiahSo, fbreader is visable and downloadable?17:48
RST38hexcept for that little update problem17:48
jeremiahBut libzlibrary is not getting updated?17:48
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jeremiahWhat version should libzlibrary be?17:49
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RST38hsame as fbreader17:49
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GAN900RST38h, fiferboy got itl17:50
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VDVsxredeeman, I told you, better check the docs, I never said that it only requires the 64x64, I also use a 48x48, not sure if is needed in maemo517:50
GAN900Also: who can we con into fixing the dialogs and menu so we can push this to Extras?17:50
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RST38hGAN: Well if this is indeed a problem, it has to be fixed somehow17:50
RST38hGAN: If qwerty does it, I will gladly review and package the code17:50
fiferboyGAN900: The developer of fbreader said he will be porting version 12 to maemo517:51
fiferboyHe just got an N90017:51
RST38hIn fact I suggest pushing it to extras as it is, it is way too useful to keep out of Extras17:51
VDVsxredeeman, about the symlink it must work, but IMO is pure none sense making a symlink from a path in rootfs to another one in rootfs, I can't see the reason for that17:51
RST38hfiferboy: Geometer or MishaS?17:51
RST38hhave ot email him17:51
RST38ha moment17:51
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redeemanVDVsx: what? i make a symlink into /opt17:51
VDVsxredeeman, you said "/usr/share/icons/hicolor/apps" above ^17:52
redeemanwhich points into /opt17:52
VDVsxoh my, ok17:53
fiferboyGAN900, RST38h:
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mgedminso, remember me complaining about volume keys controlling volume and not going to the app, *sometimes*?17:54
VDVsxredeeman, if you've a deb I can try to help, otherwise only guessing is a bit hard :p17:54
mgedminI thought it happened when I got the ubiquitous "unable to connect to one or more accounts" message on top17:54
mgedminwell, I was wrong17:54
mgedminit just happens randomly every now and then17:55
mgedminonly in fbreader (which I force to listen to volume keys by calling xprop manually from xterm)17:55
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henningmsGetting my N900 tomorrow! :D17:57
LuciusMarehenningms: congratulations17:57
henningmsThanks, really looking forward to this device17:57
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LuciusMarewhere are you from?17:58
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LuciusMarewhere did you buy it from?17:58
henningmsI ordered online from komplett.no17:58
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GAN900fiferboy, well, let's be sure he gets our patches.17:59
LuciusMaresad, in "central" europe, its all sold out or still "preorder"17:59
LuciusMarei want it for xmas17:59
henningmsYeah, it's my christmas gift to myself (that's nice right ;)17:59
LuciusMareho ho ho18:00
fiferboyGAN900: There is a new version for Linux/Windows released today, I want to check and see if the dialogs are any better18:00
henningmsIt's almost sold out here aswell18:00
LuciusMarehenningms: *almost*18:00
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henningmsedit; it actually is sold out18:00
LuciusMareyou lucky...18:00
henningmsthe store I bought it from says confirmed 1 unit 15 december18:00
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henningmsSo it sold out pretty quickly I suppose18:01
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melmothAny one knows how can i apply the patches included in ? The goal being to read the patched sources ?18:06
melmothsomething like rpmbuild -bp, but with dpkg18:07
jeremiahThat is a tarball melmoth18:07
melmothyep, i know.18:07
melmoththe debian directory contain a set of patches that will be applyed when the package is built18:07
melmothi would like to see how the source looks like after the set of patch have been applyed18:08
jeremiahSo you can use dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot18:08
RST38hGan,fiferboy: I sent Geometer an email18:08
melmothjeremiah: this will build the package.18:08
jeremiahmelmoth: Yes.18:08
melmothbut then, where do i read the sources ? i mean the one that include the patch defines in the debian/patch directory ?18:09
jeremiahYou already have the source18:09
jeremiahOr you should18:09
jeremiahIf not, you can use 'apt-get source <package>'18:09
RST38hok home18:09
jeremiahSo, if you want the source of a particular package, it looks like in this case you want the source for libical18:10
melmoththis package is not in the src repo, but that s not the problem as the source pakage is actually available in the above url18:10
melmothi want to have the maemo specifc patch applyed to the sources so i can read the patched version18:10
jeremiahthat should be in a dir called 'patch'18:10
jeremiahor something similar.18:11
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melmothif i understand correclty, something like "debian/rules apply-patches" should do it, but , then if i diff the directory with an old copy, there are no changes.18:11
jeremiahIn the deb itself usually.18:11
jeremiahmelmoth: Are you certain there were patches applied?18:11
melmothyes, the patches are in debian/patches, my problem is how to actually apply them all in the right order to see the sources as they will be compiled by dpkhg18:11
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jebbamelmoth: in the case there, they are numbered.18:12
melmothyes they are18:12
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jeremiahYeah, I think you can use quilt to look at them before they are applied too18:12
jeremiahquilt is a widely used tool to apply and manage patches in debian18:12
melmothok. I ll read a bit about quilt.18:13
jebbamelmoth:  so i think they are being applied in numerical order.  In some packages there is a debian/patches/series file, which lists patches to be applied and in which order.18:13
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achipadoes anyone have an idea if the Nokia repositories are supposed to be (really) public ? I have the sinking feeling I'm poking something I'm not supposed to...18:14
Stskeepswhich ones?18:14
* GAN900 finished the Key Lime pie last night. :(18:15
jeremiahachipa: In what sense?18:15
jeremiahAre you logged into the repo server?18:15
jeremiahI can check anyway. :)18:15
achipa and friends18:15
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achipaI'm trying to proxy them for my N900 and something is in can't wget files that apt-get update can get...18:16
Stskeepsachipa: welcome to apt authenticating your tablet18:16
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Stskeepssimilar sys as to n8x0s18:16
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vesaanyone tried ovi sharing with n900? i can't even get it to validate my account18:26
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vesatried creating a fresh account but doesn't help18:27
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Myrttithere might be some service outages today with some ovi services18:27
vesait's been like that since last week, but i'll try again another day18:28
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w00tvesa: check your time on your n90018:28
w00tand date18:28
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w00tI've had problems in the past where the date was incorrectr18:28
vesadate/time are correct. logging in via the webbrowser works fine18:28
w00tno idea then.. I'll check later on this evening when I get a chance18:29
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Gadgetoid_mbpAnyone know any good UK rolling 1 month SIMs that include data and actually WORK with the N900?18:48
zash"rolling 1 month" ?18:49
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Gadgetoid_mbpYes, IE you're not locked into a 12, 18 or 24 month contract18:50
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zashbut not a prepaid?18:51
zaheermGadgetoid, o218:51
pupnikI just tried a 1 month sim from o2/tschibo - phone works, internet broken atm.18:53
pupnikNo idea why18:53
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zashanyone tried zbarcam18:53
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achipaand just wondering... these apt user/passwords happen to be a per device thing, right ?18:57
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achipaare they retained after reflash or generated while flashing/firstbooting ?18:58
GAN900achipa, check the apt sources. ;)18:58
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GAN900There was a patch for it in the source tree for Diablo.18:58
xorAxAx -- stockholm syndrome, hah!18:59
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achipaGAN900: thx, I'm not THAT curious :)19:00
Gadgetoid_mbpI currently have a Three SIM, har har19:00
GAN900achipa, shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to pull up.19:00
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lardman|homeachipa: where's shepherd? :)19:01
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achipalardman|home: yikes. totally forgot about sending that to you, sorry, will pack something up ASAP19:02
lardman|homenp, was just curious actually, had forgotten you were sending it to me! :)19:02
lardman|homebusy this week so don't rush too much19:02
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* lardman|home wonders if it would be worth the application manager listing free space when it displays the space a package will consume when installed (during the installation process)19:03
jebba_berto_: ok, deleted my account. bastards. Got now. :)   though i can't seem to add any tracks via vagalume  (e.g. does it have a way to listen to *local* tracks?)19:03
VDVsxlardman|home, did you built fftw for maemo yet ?19:04
lardman|homeVDVsx: not yet19:04
lardman|homewill try it in a minute if you want19:04
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VDVsxlardman|home, err, I can do it, not a problem :)19:04
lardman|homebeen a bit busy as am teaching this week so had to sort out course updates, etc19:04
VDVsxI really need it :P19:04
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lardman|homeVDVsx: np, I was going to do so anyway19:05
lardman|homeyay, Qalculate! now works from the icon, though the menus need hildonising19:05
* Stskeeps yawns19:05
lardman|homeso if anyone fancies having a go please do19:05
achipaVDVsx: wait a tic, I uploaded fftw a while back19:05
achipaor was that just for diablo...19:06
* achipa needs coffee19:06
lardman|homeachipa: did you upload fort77?19:06
VDVsxachipa, oh, I did found it19:06
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VDVsxachipa, was a long ago or just some few hours ?19:06
achipaerr, no. I believe I mercilessly butchered most of the fortran stuff19:07
achipalong ago19:07
VDVsxachipa, so perhaps only for diablo19:07
_berto_jebba: no, you can't listen to local tracks19:07
lardman|homeVDVsx: looks ok, let me try a build19:08
achipalardman|home: if the fort77 stuff bogs you down, just reupload my diablo sources19:08
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achipait should pass through fremantle just as easy...19:09
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VDVsxlardman|home, I doing a local build atm, without fortran, but feel free to do a proper package19:09
lardman|homeachipa: no, I've pushed fort77 + libf2c to Fremantle, but was stopped for Diablo19:09
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lardman|homeas fort77 already exists19:10
lardman|homethough libf2c doesn't, curiously19:10
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_berto_Parse error: syntax error, unexpected '<' in /mnt/netapp/pear/midcom/lib/midcom/helper/_styleloader.php(637) : eval()'d code on line 17119:10
_berto_that's in maemo.org19:10
VDVsx_berto_,  new servers setup, perhaps19:11
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VDVsxlardman|home, ok, took some time, but it's easy to build :)19:12
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lardman|homedo you already have an ARM build then?19:13
HydroxideStskeeps: hey, we were talking previously about n900 gps and location-test-gui - I was unable to get a fix except for that one time, even with a SIM and t-mobile USA 3G/3.5G UMTS/HSDPA service, with any of the settings in LTG19:14
StskeepsHydroxide: odd19:14
VDVsxlardman|home, yup, gonna install it now on the device, without it I can test my last work on the device :(19:14
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HydroxideStskeeps: even with much view of the sky19:15
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lardman|homeVDVsx: have you pushed it to the repo?19:15
HydroxideStskeeps: one person in the tmo n900 gps problem thread mentioned that it might be specific to t-mobile usa19:15
AbstractWgrr. N900 is *STILL* out of stock.19:15
Stskeepsmaybe it filters supl port, Hydroxide?19:15
AbstractWDo I just wait for the google phone, and sell my soul to the other evil overlords? :P19:15
VDVsxlardman|home, no, I build it locally after talk to you, lol19:15
lardman|homeok :)19:15
VDVsxI'm not that fast, lol19:16
woglindehoi lardman19:16
lardman|homehi woglinde19:16
woglinde~seen x-fade19:16
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infobotx-fade is currently on #maemo (2d 19h 22m 12s). Has said a total of 11 messages. Is idling for 2h 30m 58s, last said: 'mgedmin: mic was not an issue. Was fmradio doing something wrong.'.19:16
HydroxideStskeeps: which one is that? I can test to a personal server of mine19:16 cant recall port19:16
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Hydroxideheh, yeah. I was just going to set up a netcat listening on the right port19:17
Gadgetoid_mbpHmm, wiicontrol sucks a bit at the moment19:17
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Stskeepsgoogle it, Hydroxide19:17
lardman|homeVDVsx: did you apply any ARM optimisations?19:17
VDVsxlardman|home, gonna test if everything is working well, if you want I can upload it to the repos, let me know19:17
lardman|homeVDVsx: because I think they might well be needed to make it quick enough19:17
lardman|homeVDVsx: feel free, will stop my bui;d19:18
GAN900AbstractW, Android is no Maemo.19:18
VDVsxlardman|home, not at all19:18
HydroxideStskeeps: I've been... I might have found it19:18
VDVsxlardman|home, apart from the ones already in the upstream debian rules19:18
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lardman|homenothing ARM related in there afaict19:19
VDVsxlardman|home, nop19:19
lardman|homewell, something to look at for the futyre19:20
lardman|homeI guess it will be pretty important for you19:20
VDVsxlardman|home, so I'll use this one, and wait for your with this optimizations :P19:20
lardman|homewell I'll get there in the end, I guess there must be some simd patches about for ARM19:20
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AbstractWGAN900: This is true, but I can't seem to find me an N900! :P19:21
VDVsxlardman|home, my stuff is not too heavy, is a simple DFT calculate from a array of 60 to 256 elements19:21
* mgedmin feels a bit guilty for having two ...19:21
* VDVsx steals booth mgedmin's n900s19:22
lardman|homeVDVsx: ok19:22
lardman|homeVDVsx: single frequency component?19:22
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VDVsxlardman|home, yes, there's more than one, but I want to do everything separated19:23
lardman|homeI wonder if it uses Goertzel?19:24
lardman|homenever having actually used fftw directly19:24
VDVsxlardman|home, humm, dunno19:24
VDVsxlardman|home, but everything is explained in their website19:25
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VDVsxlardman|home, ok, gonna upload that version(without fortran), seems to work fine19:34
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lardman|homehang on 5 min and I'll upload one with FORTRAN19:34
lardman|homejust waiting for the tests to be performed19:34
VDVsxlardman|home, oki, do you've a gfortran packages ?19:35
lardman|homeno, use fort7719:35
VDVsxI need that for other stuff as well19:35
lardman|homestraight swap of gfortran for fort7719:35
lardman|homein the deps19:35
Gadgetoid_mbpBah, I have failed editing the wiicontrol python script19:35
lardman|homethen a possibly addition of libf2c in the libs section19:35
Gadgetoid_mbpOr it's just decided to cease working19:35
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MaceG1dollhouse isnt that good19:36
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MaceG1they should have gotten a better actress for the lead role19:36
lardman|homeVDVsx: what else have you built that needs FORTRAN?19:36
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VDVsxlardman|home, stupid apt-get didn't found that when I search for fortran19:36
MaceG1summer glau would have been able to pull it off way better19:36
VDVsxlardman|home, IIRC some games19:37
lardman|homewow, with FORTRAN! :)19:37
VDVsxlardman|home, stupid thinks there, I didn't dig that much19:37
VDVsxlardman|home, there's also other requiring pascal and I've also find some requiring haskell ;)19:38
lardman|homePascal would be interesting to have, but I don't have anything specific for it19:38
lardman|homeAm currently building Octave deps19:38
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VDVsxlardman|home, I think is already there, because is one of the frozen.bubble deps IIRC19:39
VDVsxanyway I don't have time for ports atm :19:39
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VDVsxlardman|home, btw, you're building the one of the last version of fftw right ?19:41
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VDVsxversion 2.x has some performance problems, according to the authors19:41
VDVsx3.x is fine19:41
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lardman|homemy goodness, these fftw tests take an age!19:43
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lardman_hmm, that Inventec N18 looks perfectly sized19:44
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pupnikanybody have a good way to rip dvd and convert to playable 720x48019:52
woglindepupnik try hadnbrake19:52
pupnikJaffa crops, which i dont want. I want scaling to 600x480, then stretch to 720x28019:53
pupnikusing it19:53
pupnikit gives me .mkv, which n900 ignores19:53
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pupnikor .m4v which is still too slow19:53
pupnikif i find good settings i will submit to handbrake19:54
Vulcanis_pupnik: Have you tried SUPER?19:55
Vulcanis_you would need to do dvddecrypter and autogk  first19:55
pupnikwhat is that19:55
MaceG1pupnik. in handbrake use ffmpeg and aac19:56
MaceG1and scale it down to 480x32019:56
pupnikahh my ffmpeg is not showing19:56
Vulcanis_might need to reinstall it19:56
Jaffapupnik: Pass the -o option to tablet-encode to maintain original aspect ratio19:56
pupnikyeah your 480p runs nicely19:57
Jaffapupnik: Then you get the benefit of tablet-encode's episode detection, language selection and main feature detection that handrbake doesn't19:57
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MaceG1pupnik, i use ffmpeg19:57
MaceG1in handbrake19:57
pupnikk good to know ty!19:57
MaceG1have to choose mp419:58
pupnikwhat audio codec?19:58
MaceG1as the type of file19:58
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MaceG1128k aac should work19:58
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MaceG1ok. gotta go19:58
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lardman_VDVsx: still building......20:06
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VDVsxlardman_, what machine do you've ? lol20:06
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lardman_dual core 2.4GHz, 4GB RAM20:07
VDVsxlardman_, not a rush for me20:07
lardman_something like that anyway20:07
VDVsxlardman, strange took around 10 min here20:07
lardman_ah, is performing the tests too here20:07