IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-09-07

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timeless_mbpStskeeps: did you manage to download the file?13:14
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Jaffalcuk: Seems I might be talking with you at onedotzero on Saturday13:48
lcuktalk with me before if possible13:48
lcukim meeting simon for beers on thursday13:49
lcukcan you come?13:49
Jaffalcuk: Not on Thursday, I'm in Stockholm. I'm in the office on Friday, tho13:50
lcukis that nearby?13:50
JaffaYeah, near Liverpool Street13:51
lcukok, ive pmed my mobile number13:51
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Andy80Jaffa: I know... I'm a bit annoying sometimes... :) but.... flights are costing each day more :( (damn flight companies...) when, about, are you/Nokia going to send travel informations, so I can see if I can find a cheaper flight and save few moneys for other people? Thanks :)13:54
RST38h"We have not found one operator which has created shareholder value with iPhone," Strand alleges.13:54
RST38hOperators pay much of their iPhone-related earnings to Apple and arriers also have to subsidise the handset to reach a price point that customers are willing to pay. Together, these two factors leave the networks out of pocket, the company said.13:54
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glassRST38h: sulplize?13:57
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RST38hglass: Not to me13:58
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RST38hglass: mobile-review had a short article a few weeks ago on how .RU operators got screwed on iPhone13:59
JaffaAndy80: You'll know when cos you'll get a mail :-p13:59
JaffaAndy80: Tested the system this morning, and it didn't work. So X-Fade  and I are investigating13:59
RST38hglass: This one is just more of the same, on global scale13:59
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Andy80Jaffa: ok, sorry again ;)14:00
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JaffaAndy80: Nah, having the system close to working; the majority sorted and Nokia World out-of-the-way has me much more relaxed14:06
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Andy801.2.3 test14:07
Andy80(my connection went down)14:07
Jaffa_berto_: +1 on Qt/Hildon email14:09
Andy80Jaffa: it looks like a cold war between Gtk/Hildon team and Qt one :D14:10
JaffaAndy80: Indeed ;-)14:13
* andre__ wonders how a hot war would look like14:14
* lcuk imagines amazonian warrier princesses with ample boobage and a bead of sweat running down the cleavage14:17
* SpeedEvil imagines improvised weapons with webcams and image recognition.14:17
lcukhey - we are maemo.  we have to touch14:18
* RST38h imagines a humongous space ship equipped with nets14:18
* lcuk has short hair14:18
lcuki looked like a shaggy dog before14:18
* SpeedEvil has scaled back from the RMS beard.14:19
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RST38hNo longer a Unix guru? =)14:19
VDVsxandre__, thanks for the tests :),14:20
lcukfinally had time to do something about it14:20
lcuknearly broke the barbers shaver tho :S14:20
VDVsxandre__, I forgot to comment a line in the script, that was the cause of the 'twice presses' ;)14:20
andre__VDVsx, hope it helps14:20
lcukVDVsx, andre__ sort out the problem with key input?14:21
lcukgreat stuff!14:21
andre__well, the problem with return key not working but spacebar14:21
lcukthere are similar bugs in m4 sdl too14:22
lcukpupnik tried to solve them properly14:22
RST38hHmm...Peter is aware of LiveJournal. Interesting.14:22
lcukthings like Fn havign to be held whilst pressing numbers14:22
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lcukRST38h, thats not interesting, thats worrying14:22
lcukalmost as bad as admitting to havign a geocities page :D14:23
Stskeepstimeless: right now i'm wondering if the polish electricity killed something14:23
RST38hlcuk: Why? Compared to Facebook or Twitter, LiveJournal looks almost elitist =)14:23
VDVsxandre__, I think this is the sdl bug that lcuk is talking about, because the keycodes are correct14:24
VDVsxI've to confirm :)14:24
lcukVDVsx, i know it is because i had to solve them myself in lb14:25
_berto_Jaffa: sorry, i was away14:25
VDVsxlcuk, in diablo as well ?14:25
_berto_Jaffa: you mean the one that I've just sent?14:25
lcukthis is because there is no hildon input method doing the required nokia device conversions14:25
lcuklike sticky keys14:25
lcukqt have same kind of fix in their stack too14:26
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lcukits the same for all toolkits14:26
lcukand sdl just hasnt been dealt with14:26
VDVsxlcuk, yeah, it's normal for the fn stuff, but strange for the standard keys14:26
lcuknot really14:27
lcukanyway, bbiab14:27
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RST38hOh, shit, in Peter's Maemo demo, at the end...14:28
RST38hHe scrolls through a list of pictures, then (while it is still scrolling) calls up the task switcher14:29
RST38hAnd you can see the little preview of the gallery app continue scrolling =)14:29
Stskeepscomposite = cool14:30
_berto_i imagine you've already seen this:
* mgedmin hasn't14:33
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_berto_which is related to
wazdRST38h: russian guy was funny :)14:35
wazdRST38h: He was talking like a terrorist from an action movie :D14:36
RST38hwazd: He was ok really, half of Brighton population has got worse accent14:37
mmu_screenwhy do they ship products they don't care about then ? :)14:39
RST38hWho "they"?14:39
RST38hNokia is many people and many departments14:39
wazdPeter is an awesome PR guy, I he will tell that maemo 6 device will be able to turn into a car - I'll believe :)14:39
X-FadeI guess it is just about managing expectations.14:39
RST38hwazd: Let us have Peter vs Steve Jobs fight, like NOW! =)14:40
roopeIt is not in the best interests of Nokia to downplay Symbian in any way.14:41
mmu_screenI'd try Haiku on an N900...14:41
roopeThat's where the money comes from, obviously. And will come for a long time.14:41
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wazdRST38h: well, I like Peters acting manner more than Jobs' cause Steve uses awfully too much "gorgeous", "revolutionary", "extrordinary" and stuff14:41
mmu_screenwazd: and when you know they copied all their ideas from BeOS and other existing OSes...14:42
Robot101roope: ^^ downplaying maemo this much seems un-necessary though14:42
wazdmmu_screen: I'm not talking bout Apple now :)14:42
RST38hwazd: Peter is European, that is why14:42
roopeThen again, "because it cannot be customized" is far away from any truth.14:42
wazdRST38h: well, maybe :)14:42
X-Faderoope: provider locked down :)14:42
Stskeepsit can be customized but people can remove it again ;)14:42
roopeWhen operators talk about customization, they talk about "not allowing the users to customize", really.14:43
* mmu_screen ponders about going to an SFR or Orange shop asking for an N90014:43
RST38hroope: well, the guy directly said that Maemo decided to disallow customization for now to avoid maintaining different versions14:43
Robot101roope: yeah14:43
_berto_I think i've found a problem with the web archive in lists.maemo.org14:43
SpeedEvilmmu_screen: We need a campaign.14:43
SpeedEvilmmu_screen: Get a bus - load it up with people.14:43
* Robot101 hasn't met anyone who likes operator "customisations". it must be a pretty depressing job...14:43
RST38hroope; So that thing Jaaksi said about "unable to be customized" was a mistake14:43
_berto_Is there a component in bugzilla for that ?14:44
SpeedEvilmmu_screen: Go store-store _all_ going in and requesting a n90014:44
roopeAdding stuff to the menus etc. is a trivial thing to do. But there are no mechanisms in preventing recustomization, kind of.14:44
wazdI think it was sarcasm :)14:44
roopeI.e. an operator can do their own home screen in a day, really. (well, kind of). But then the users can remove it in a minute.14:44
wazdIt can't be "customized" in the way operators want to :)14:45
roopeIt's a bit depressing to read statements like that from Nokia execs.14:45
SpeedEvilI would like a customised phone. If it was lots cheaper.14:45
Robot101roope: srsly :(14:45
wazdSpeedEvil: that's why Windows 7 Starter edition appeared14:45
roopeBut they're trying to upplay Symbian, which does have more prebuilt configurations and options for operators.14:45
X-Fade_berto_: I guess you need to use Website -> general for that.14:46
* Robot101 hopes people vote with their feet on this one14:46
ShadowJKcutsomized usually means you get no new firmware and no bugfixes :)14:46
X-Fade_berto_: In which case it ends up ..... with me ;)14:46
Robot101the problem is Nokia's strategy of pushing services on their devices brings them into competition with the carriers, who always try and cram on loads of crap tie-ins that nobody actually wants14:46
rooperst38h: Well, of course it's like... For instance with software updates, the assumption is to have only one version to flash and update.14:46
mmu_screenSpeedEvil: care to come to Alchimie 2k9 to talk about Maemo btw ? could be interesting...14:47
_berto_X-Fade: the part that I wrote is missing14:47
mmu_screenin french if possible14:47
wazdRobot101: the problem is open software :) You can't close it, but it ruins "business"14:47
RST38hroope: i.e. it should be read as "because it cannot be sodomized"14:47
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roopeAs Peter was saying.14:47
_berto_X-Fade: I guess because it starts with "From "14:47
SpeedEvilmmu_screen: I care to - but I have no way of getting there - and would need to learn french.14:47
RST38hroope: btw, I do not see why everyone is claiming that "users can change it all back"14:47
SpeedEvilmmu_screen: I currently know how to ask for a baguette - but not much more :)14:47
Robot101wazd: forcing your customers to use other parts of your service doesn't tend to make them happier or more likely to get another phone from you14:47
roopeBut subsidies are interesting. People know, logically, that a subsidized phone isn't really cheaper, on the contrary.14:47
X-Fade_berto_: Hmm mailman / pipermail bug then.14:48
roopeOperators do it to make a profit.14:48
RST38hroope: It should be possible to lock that, really14:48
_berto_X-Fade: yes14:48
SpeedEvilroope: Well - ...14:48
roopeBut still the initial pain of paying for the device is hard for many.14:48
StskeepsRST38h: maemo's too open for that :P14:48
SpeedEvilroope: True - however - false.14:48
_berto_X-Fade: where do I report that? or will you do it for me? :p14:48
Robot101wazd: thats why I like to see "game changing" devices where the operators have to, er, suck it up, and ship it anyway, because otherwise people will just go to another operator :)14:48
wazdAnyway, iPhone sells subsidized without any operator's junk14:48
SpeedEvilroope: True in the sense that of course it's true - false in the sense that it may be impossible to buy as good a deal as you get with a subsidised phone with sim only.14:48
roopeBut I'm pretty sure we'll see operator deals announced.14:48
wazdwithout even a logo on the body14:49
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Robot101thats because operators were falling over themselves to get the exclusive deals :)14:49
glasssome were, some were not14:49
wazdiPhone is beeing sold ofcourse :D14:49
RST38hSts: open, shmopen, just restore configuration from ROM on bootup14:49
glassfor some opers getting the iphone was their justification for existence14:49
X-Fade_berto_: Please report it as I don't have time to look at it more closely right now.14:49
roopeOperators love subsidized devices, because it helps to decrease churn. And churn basically kills profit.14:49
_berto_X-Fade: ok !14:49
RST38hglass: How is that?14:49
SpeedEvilroope: for example - - 15 quid a month for 18 months gets you a hundred-quid-ish phone. 15 quid a month with no contract gives you the more or less same or slightly substandard deal - less internet forex.14:49
glassRST38h: because of the cool factor..  and unability to compete otherwise14:50
SpeedEvilroope: and no 100 quid ish phone14:50
Robot101SpeedEvil: normal economics don't apply to three, they're almost paying people to be customers. still. :P14:50
glassanyways, theres more to subsidized phones than theres on the surface, like how easy or not they are to hack14:50
roopespeedevil: Yes, depends on the country of course.14:51
roopeFinland has traditionally had very good non-subsidized deals, for instance.14:51
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RST38hglass: If you mean AT&T, they have been pretty competitive before iphone :)14:51
SpeedEvilRobot101: I haven't looked at their buisness case recently.14:51
glassRST38h: not at&t14:52
Robot101(like NTL/VirginMedia, they're still screwed by debt from cabling the entire country, so they can't often afford to put in new cables to get new customers, they just have to squeeze all of the existing accessible customers for as much revenue as they can)14:52
roopeBut anyway. Operators push those deals where they make the most money in the long run. That's obvious of course.14:52
glassRST38h: europe region opers..14:52
RST38hglass: Ah14:52
* Robot101 lives next to a Virgin media office and has no cable because its a newish house :P14:52
RST38hglass: but I guess you only get lulz for exclusivity, no?14:52
SpeedEvilRobot101: yeah - three are the only still really extant company that actually paid for 3g spectrum aren't they.14:52
RST38hglass: I.e. you have ot be the only guy on th eblock with iphone?14:52
qwerty12_N810Robot101: ...but still not worth it as Sky gets you more channels :p14:52
glassRST38h: pretty much, and those guys imported iphones from the gray market anyhow14:52
roopeOf course for instance for a 500 dollar phone the operator doesn't pay 500 for it. etc.14:53
glassif talking about persons14:53
Robot101SpeedEvil: they're the only one who was new and paid for it with funding, rather than being a huge operator already14:53
glassRST38h: the oper who got iphone in finland made a big fuss about getting it14:53
glassRST38h: still, in general respect, they suck. they weren't in the 10e/month unlimited data wagon early enough14:53
glassRST38h: mostly apparently because their sales guy used to sell soda14:54
RST38hglass: hehe14:54
RST38hglass: it was even worse in .RU14:54
RST38hglass: When the major operators got into deals with Apple, pretty much everyone who wanted an iphone got one14:54
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RST38hglass: Usually, bought at US apple store, then brought in and unlocked, then sold for ~$800-$90014:55
SpeedEvilrandom - can anyone with internet from three post their ppp logs? I'm having trouble connecting.14:55
RST38hglass: So, the operators who committed to sell X million iPhones suddenly found themselves with a lot of inventory on their hands and no way to move it14:55
glassRST38h: yeh i can imagine russia being a hard market to sell14:56
RST38hglass: They are now selling iPhones for about $450 as part of "special action"14:56
RST38hglass: Well, 5800 seem to sell like hotcakes14:56
roopeI think the N900 is a quite appealing package. It would kind of "sell itself", if it would just be in stores and people would have some time to play with it.14:58
roopeThat's the general feeling I get from comments from people.14:58
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roopeFor certain user groups, of course.15:00
tigertit sold itself to me pretty effectively at least15:03
tigertbut I am a geek15:03
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Andy80wazd: I'm in europe and still here :)15:05
* ShadowJK wonders how come no podcast apps have sort by publish date15:05
ShadowJKalthough s60 podcast app / media player can sort by date, but only in newst-first order15:05
ShadowJKwhich kinda sucks when I want to listen in chronological order15:05
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tigertwhich is funny because most rss readers do that15:07
thpShadowJK: gpodder sorts in reverse-chronological order (newest episodes on top)15:07
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ShadowJKoh, reverse :/15:09
thpgiven that every widget by default scrolls to the top, this makes the new episodes be visible at first15:09
thpif you have sorted it in chronological order, you would have to scroll down all the way to see the "interesting" episodes15:10
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thpand given how basically every scrollable area defaults to starting "at the top", having the view scroll to the bottom on display also is kind of unexpected for the user, i presume15:10
* SpeedEvil ponders getting a n900, and then paying for it by doing requests with it on myfreecams.15:10
ShadowJKI usually use the rss reader to track new episodes, then I download with wget and manually sort in chronological order and dump to my mp3 player, and listen to the various shows in chronological order. Then I delete the files15:11
* ShadowJK hasnt found a program that would automate it yet15:12
ShadowJKeven when removing the "dump to mp3 player" part :)15:12
thpif your mp3 player presents itself as a usb mass storage device, i suppose you could do this with gpodder15:14
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thpwell, actually, i _know_ you can do this when i come to think of it.15:14
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thpyou simply set up your mp3 player's root, set a custom sync name (YYYY-MM-DD Episode Title) and you should be good to go15:15
ShadowJKas long as gpodder then writes out in right order :)15:15
thpcan't your mp3 player sort by filename?15:16
ShadowJKit sorts by inode or something15:16
thpah. ok. let me have a look at the source (long time no digging in the sync module..)15:16
ShadowJKiirc when I tried gpodder it became showA-monday showA-tuesday showA-wednesday showB-monday showB-tuesday etc15:17
thpwell, it does create folders for each show15:18
thpbut the sync order (in which files are copied to the device) is ascending pubDate (if the pubDate is set in the feed, that is ;)15:19
thpand you can disabling per-podcast subfolders (set fssync_channel_subfolders=False in the advanced config editor)15:19
infobotthp meant: and you can disable per-podcast subfolders (set fssync_channel_subfolders=False in the advanced config editor)15:20
ShadowJKhm, I should try that15:20
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thpoh, and one last hint: take the latest version from, as distros sometimes ship with pretty outdated versions. ugly outdated, even..15:20
* ShadowJK was using the one in extras15:21
thpoh, yeah. the maemo package is kept up to date all the time ;)15:21
thpthought you were hooking up your portable mp3 player to your linux machine..15:22
ShadowJKi was hooking it up to tablet15:22
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ShadowJKwas easier to try it out there when it was in extras15:23
_berto_no one uploaded a video showing the n900 tv out yet?15:23
ShadowJKthe lack of hw controls makes n8x0 not practical as player for me15:23
thpShadowJK: the latest version is always in Maemo extras15:24
thpall that sync-to-mp3-player stuff is only available (or: exposed in the UI) in the desktop version, though..15:24
thpShadowJK: you should try gPodder+Panucci on your tablet, though ;)
ShadowJKI wonder if it supports the hw keys on audio adapters :)15:26
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ShadowJKsomeone said they should work with n8x0 but the default player doesnt support it15:27
thpit supports the "mute" button on the included headset and uses it as play/pause button15:27
thpdon't know about other adapters, would probably have to write support for them15:27
ShadowJKOh I have one with play/pause,stop,next,prev,call,volume+,volume- buttons15:27
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ShadowJKoh the s60 media player does one brilliant thing... it remembers position in podcasts.. if I accidentally skip to next instead of pause, and then go back, it resumes from where I left that file :)15:31
thpShadowJK: start "dbus-monitor --system" in an xterm and see if the buttons generate any events15:31
thpShadowJK: panucci does that too (and resuming was the initial reason why it was developed ;)15:31
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ShadowJKnope it generates nothing :(15:33
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ShadowJKgpodder+panucci looks like the ideal solution on n900 :)15:35
timeless_mbpwho maintains openssh in the fremantle repositories?15:38
timeless_mbpi just installed it on an n90015:38
timeless_mbpand it can't ssh to itself15:39
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timeless_mbpit gives an error about unsupported options: GSSAPIAuthentication / GSSAPIDelegateCredentials15:39
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Stskeepsisnøt that just a warning15:39
ShadowJKit does that on diablo too15:40
timeless_mbpi can't ssh to myself15:40
ShadowJKand is just a warning on diablo15:40
timeless_mbpdo i have to reboot?15:40
timeless_mbpmaybe the problem is that it doesn't start sshd15:40
ShadowJKdoes it time out?15:40
ShadowJKconnection refused?15:40
timeless_mbpyeah refused15:40
timeless_mbpi think i just need to reboot15:40
timeless_mbpwhich is stupid15:40
ShadowJKnot started then :)15:41
timeless_mbpcould someone please poke someone? :)15:41
lcuktimeless_mbp, "sudo gainroot" then15:41
Macerwhat's up with calendars using monday as the first day?15:41
X-Fadetimeless_mbp: Walk over to Ed.15:41
timeless_mbplcuk: for that, i had to install rootsh15:41
Maceris this some sort of christian thing?15:41
Stskeeps or /etc/init.d/sshd restart15:41
lcukahh k15:41
lcukreboot then15:41
timeless_mbpStskeeps: doesn't that require me to be root?15:41
Macerjust to make sunday the 7th day?15:41
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: true, true15:41
timeless_mbpMacer: probably15:42
ShadowJKMacer: it might be a european thing maybe15:42
MacerShadowJK: does europe do that?15:42
timeless_mbpShadowJK: it is15:42
timeless_mbpbut the question is why15:42
Macerkde and most of the maemo calendars do it without allowing you to change it15:42
timeless_mbpi think it probably was the church's fault15:42
Maceri figured they just changed it because of the church15:42
timeless_mbptrying to move sunday to be the seventh day15:42
Macerheh yeah15:42
timeless_mbpsince it was their sabbath15:42
timeless_mbpstupid calendar revisionsts15:42
Macersomeone probably asked "why is the sabath sunday when saturday is the 7th day?"15:42
ShadowJKwell you could just as well ask why sunday is the first day in america, and why the names of days are named after Gods in nordic mythology in the first place15:43
Macertimeless_mbp: guess if you have enough clout you can get anything done15:43
MacerShadowJK: haha yeah15:43
MacerShadowJK: odd isn't it? :)15:43
Macerbut i suppose every word is man made15:44
Macera tree just as easily could have been called a horse15:44
ShadowJKlike, why did america move sunday to first day of week, is that some antichrist thing? ;)15:44
Macerif enough people started calling trees horses15:44
MacerShadowJK: i never knew it wasn't the first day of the week15:44
lbtyou could even call colour color15:44
Macerwe're oddly seperated from the world15:44
Macernot because we can't see the world or we know it's there.. but because we are arrogant and just don't care15:45
roopeThe centre of the world, or as you call is, the center.15:45
aSIMULAtorusa #115:45
Macerlike. i have no idea who the prime minister of france is (or president)15:45
ShadowJKand why is it called weekend when the days off are week end and week start ;D15:45
roopeasimulator: People of Walmart dot com15:45
Maceri mean ask most americans who the leader of most nations are...15:45
aSIMULAtorroope: they be my ppl15:46
Macerand most will draw a blank :)15:46
aSIMULAtormy homies15:46
aSIMULAtorcan u tell15:46
Macerask someone in europe who the president of the US is15:46
Maceri bet most of them know15:46
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aSIMULAtorwhen u see me, don't i look like them damn handsome buggrs15:46
roopeSome very scary shit there.15:46
ShadowJKMacer: dug, Bill Gates15:46
aSIMULAtori always laugh at the phrase southerners say of "git r done"15:46
Stskeepsal gore?15:46
ShadowJKstskeeps: no he won the darwin award15:46
MaceraSIMULAtor: yeah. we kind of treat the southern people like iraqis treat the kurds15:46
Macerwell.. treated :)15:47
* lbt thinks "Sarah Palin" .... and realises it's Game Over15:47
ShadowJKor was it the nobel prizeÅ ;P15:47
Macerlbt: hahaha15:47
aSIMULAtori'm from the coast of the if they could sort of make the east and west a country15:47
aSIMULAtorthen sort of get rid of the middle and south15:47
aSIMULAtorjk .P15:47
Macerthen again. america is composed of 2 continents.. north and south. huge land masses15:47
ShadowJKyay for having å and ? on same key :)15:47
lbtaSIMULAtor: sounds good... make it a big ski-resort :)15:47
Maceryet .. people in the US are called "Americans"15:47
Macerand people in Canada are called "CAnadians"15:48
Macernever figured that one out either15:48
ShadowJKMacer: finns mostly call you yanks15:48
ShadowJKall of you ;p15:48
RST38hI am sure Mexicans would be offended15:48
aSIMULAtorgod bless america15:48
MacerRST38h: me too15:48
MaceraSIMULAtor: yeah. so when a president says that15:49
* suihkulokki thinks the east coast of states should join canada and the west coast mexico.. 15:49
RST38hNo no no15:49
Maceris he saying it about ALL of america? :) or just the US?15:49
RST38hTexas goes back to Mexico15:49
ShadowJKjust the US15:49
Macerusually presidents will use the whole name15:49
suihkulokkiI don't think mexicans want texas15:49
Macer"God Bless the United States of America"15:49
aSIMULAtori think only the white anglo saxons15:49
RST38hsuihkulokki: We will not give them choice on that15:49
aSIMULAtorsince this new president doesn't really say it15:49
lbtMacer: You're presidents *know* the whole name?15:49
aSIMULAtorok bibi ttyl15:49
infobotlbt meant: Macer: Your presidents *know* the whole name?15:49
Macerlbt: i don't think Bush did ;)15:49
MacerRegan too. he was half out of it15:50
RST38hyou are really cherrypicking presidents here15:50
MacerNancy was running the country for the last 3 years of his presidency15:50
lbtnot hard15:50
RST38hPentagon had to hire a comics artist to prepare briefs for Reagan15:50
lbt1st female president15:50
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MacerRegan was what we needed for the cold war15:50
Macera total nut job willing to press the red button :)15:51
RST38hMacer: You mean he was explosive?15:51
MacerRST38h: heh15:51
MacerRST38h: i suppose15:51
CorsacMexico are United States too, btw15:51
Macerhe was so out of it mentally15:51
Macerthat i have no doubt if it came to it he wouldn't have cared about shooting off the ICBMs15:51
RST38hI mean, it's not like Soviets were ready the press the button, not since Khruschev15:51
ShadowJKwhat I think would be interesting would be to quiz the UK prime minister about the differences between the commonwealth, UK, and Great Britain... :P15:51
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MacerRST38h: i suppose that is true too... i think chernobyl was the true fall of the USSR15:52
RST38hMacer: Again, Chernobyl hardly has anything to do with the fall of the USSR15:52
MacerRST38h: heh15:52
Macerif you say so15:52
RST38hChernobyl was an accident, really.15:52
ShadowJKit bankrupted them to the point that they sold east germany to the west to get some cash15:52
MacerRST38h: oh i agree15:52
Macerthe problem wasn't the accident. the problem was the resolve15:53
RST38hBeing unable to produce competitive products, getting behind in technology, food shortages, industrial shortages15:53
RST38hTHAT was the fall of USSR15:53
Macerthey still had celebrations in radioactive areas in order to give the appearance of "nothing wrong"15:53
MacerRST38h: i'm sure social oppression had a little to do with it :)15:53
RST38hMacer: I have been pretty close to Chernobyl when it happened15:53
MacerChina seems to be doing OK15:54
Macermaybe they just hide it better than the USSR did15:54
RST38hMacer: First of all, there was not any special drive to celebrate, it was normal May holiday15:54
ShadowJKchernobyl also showed everyone (inside and outside) how little control soviet leadership had, when their best source of information was western news channels15:54
RST38hMacer: Secondly, news did spread in a couple of days and measures (whatever measly measures could be taken) were taken15:54
ShadowJKThe swedes noticed it first. They thought one of their own plants were leaking. :)15:55
MacerRST38h: well.. you know us arrogant americans.. always giving into the evil american government propaganda :)15:55
RST38hMacer: Iodine tablets, water sprinklers to keep the dust down, closure of markets, etc15:55
lardmananyone have a link to the Summit sponsored attendees hotel?15:55
lardmanor even the email Quim sent about it?15:55
MacerRST38h: yeah. they also had a tiny "nothing is wrong" article in the newspaper about it15:55
Macerwhat was the death total of chernobyl?15:56
RST38hMacer: What control? The leadership gets a blown up nuclear reactor on its hands, do you think US leadership would handle it much differently?15:56
RST38hMacer: Let me check15:56
MacerRST38h: well. there were a couple close calls but never an all out meltdown15:56
Macerand i guess you could call a "failed test" an accident15:56
RST38h56 direct deaths15:56
RST38hUnknown number of followup deaths, mostly form increased cancer incidence15:57
Macerwith russians using a skeleton night shift crew with less knowledge to run a test15:57
Macercausing it to go into complete meltdown15:57
Macerby bypassing safeties15:57
Macerand yanking all the rods out :)15:57
ShadowJKrst38h: gorbachev also got only the "nothing is wrong" report. It took days before news reached him through the walls of coverup. That's the difference15:57
jeremiah_RST38h: Well, the US did handle it differently at Three Mile Island15:57
Macerthen again. that could also be capitalist propaganda :)15:58
RST38hMacer: Ok. Do you somehow see the hand of soviet leadership in a bunch of laid back engineers believing that "nothing wrong can ever happen with this reactor"?15:58
MacerRST38h: but it wasn't an accident15:58
Maceryanking all the rods out of a nuclear reactor nullifies "accident"15:58
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RST38hjeremiah: Should I quote for you?15:58
lardmanVDVsx: I saw that, just wanted to double check it was the right name15:58
suihkulokkichernobyl was only relevant in the respect that people lost the last bits of trust on the goverment. the real failure of soviet union was economical failure.15:59
lardmanbut thanks15:59
RST38hjeremiah: The experts had said an accident like the one at Three Mile Island could not happen, and initially described it as a "minor malfunction". Twenty-eight hours after the accident began, Lt. Gov. William W. Scranton appeared at a news briefing to say that Metropolitan Edison, the plant's owner, had assured the state that "everything is under control".15:59
Macersuihkulokki: agreed15:59
RST38hjeremiah: Later that day, Scranton changed his statement, saying that the situation was "more complex than the company first led us to believe".[40] There were conflicting statements about radiation releases.[41] Schools were closed and residents were urged to stay indoors. Farmers were told to keep their animals under cover and on stored feed.15:59
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VDVsxlardman, well -> "for the sponsored participants and the big bunch of people "15:59
RST38hjeremiah: How is that different from how Soviets handled it? =)15:59
lardmanah here:
ShadowJKin both cases there was lack of information flow15:59
lardmanVDVsx: got to check before I bend the plastic ;)16:00
MacerRST38h: did they pull all the rods out to run a test at three mile island? :)16:00
RST38hBecause independntly on whether you are capitalist or socialist, when you fuck up, the same instincts kick in16:00
ShadowJKthree mile island had a single phone line that was clogged by journalists so the people who built the plant coudlnt get through to the operators to tell them they're doing it wrong16:00
MacerShadowJK: hahahaha16:01
Maceryou would think they would have a direct line there or something :)16:01
ShadowJKand in chernobyl case every step of the information flow was trained to claim normality16:01
RST38hShadow: not really. not after first 2-4 days16:01
ShadowJKMacer: yeah they thought that too, afterwards :P16:01
ShadowJKoh that swedish plant that lost power was funny too16:02
ShadowJKtripple-redundant UPS... all 3 failed in identical way.16:02
suihkulokkiobviously the only telephone line to chernobyl couldn't be clogged since journalists in soviet union didn't have phones :P16:02
Macersuihkulokki: or rights :)16:03
lardmanVDVsx: that's worrying, Quim's Talk post points to a different hotel to the one on the wiki....16:03
Macerif they wrote bad things about chernobyl they'd probably have been shot in a basement16:03
suihkulokkior sent to a nice holiday in siberian winter16:03
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ShadowJKdid you see the videos from when they were using remote controlled robotd to clean up the radioactive roof? the robots would die one by one from radiation, and they'd send more to shove the dead ones off the roof and maybe throw another bit of scrap off the roof too until they ran out of robots16:04
ShadowJKand started giving peope "Hero of the fstherland" medals for going up there and throwing one piece of scrap off the roof :)16:05
VDVsxlardman, :(. probably some confusion ->
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MacerShadowJK: yeah16:06
Macerthen they sent the poor russian bastards up there16:06
Macerto do it by hand16:06
CorsacShadowJK: until they ran out of people16:06
lardmanVDVsx: have just emailed the council, needs to be sorted asap so people don't end up in the wrong place!16:06
ShadowJKthey imported lots :)16:06
Maceryou could see the radiation messing up the film16:06
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Macerthere was radioactive snow on the film haha.. it was amazing16:07
Maceri'd love to have seen a live feed of the lava flow underneath the building16:07
Maceri'm sure it was an amazing sight16:07
Macerit blew the top off the building which was a huge thick concrete dome16:08
lardmanhave you seen the video taken with an R/C tank from underneath?16:09
lardmanyou've probably already mentioned that bit of footage, /me scrolls up16:10
VDVsxlardman, should be the "ibis center", the other one is 4.1 km from the venue :(16:10
lardmanlooks like Ibis Centre is 2.6km still16:11
VDVsxgonna change16:11
lardmanwho added the info?16:11
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lardmanI can't work out where to find the diffs any more16:11
VDVsxlardman, I added the info in front of the link :(16:12
VDVsxthe link was already there16:12
lardmanok, np, just wondering16:12
MacerAt 1:24, 20 seconds after the SCRAM was ordered, the first steam explosion took place. It blew the 2,000 ton lid off of the reactor,16:12
Macerlardman: yeah16:12
Maceri saw the pics of the solidified lava16:12
lardmanvery pretty iirc16:12
Maceramazing :) i wonder what that stuff looked like when it was lava16:13
Macer2000 tons16:13
Macerblew it up like it was paper16:13
Maceri still find it odd that the world still runs off steam16:13
Maceryou would think there would have been a better way found to accelerate electrons16:13
Macerwe are using like... 200 yr old tech for power still?16:14
glassnot 20016:14
lcukim still waiting for people to split the beer atom, for real.16:14
Macerglass, i'm still counting steam engines ;)16:14
Macerthey didn't have steam locomotives in the 1800s?16:15
glassthey did16:15
glassbut i was thinking of generators/attached tech16:15
Macerglass: i was thinking of power in general16:15
glasswater has been harnessed to cycling action for thousands of years now16:15
Macerhaha... wtf. we can't figure out something better than steam?16:16
Maceri guess ice16:16
Macerbut they aren't as efficient as boiled water i suppose16:16
Macerglass: then i stand corrected16:16
glassit's what you do with the power that matters anyhow16:16
glassMacer: romans had pretty "industrialised" places, mega milling centers16:16
Macerglass: i suppose, but i mean. aren't there other ways to shoot out electrons?16:16
Maceri mean is the steam powered turbine the only way?16:17
lardmanbut slightly dangerous when it leaks16:17
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lardmanyou need something with two phases at about the right temperature16:17
glassMacer: actually, hmm, you should watch this one documentary about ancient tech. like a water powered vending machine from greek(i think)16:18
VDVsxlardman, done, your persistence avoided a 'big' problem ;)16:18
Maceri suppose solar panels... but to power anything realistic you need constant sunlight and panels that take up a square mile16:18
lardmanVDVsx: cool, np16:18
Macerto power a house the size of a car16:18
glasspeltier and such elements still suck too much i suppose16:18
glassMacer: theres alternate aproach to solar energy thats being used/rolled out, in it basically a looong mirror(array of them) and a black tube that the mirror concentrates it on16:19
glassbut it uses a turbine i suppose :p16:19
Macerglass: yeah but... if there is no sun then what? :)16:19
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lcuknokia engineers crawl through the black tube, and those that reach the other end become maemo.16:19
Macerhuge batteries underneath the home?16:19
Macerlcuk: haha16:19
glassMacer: then you deposit the energy artificial lakes, or whatever16:20
Maceri'm just saying. the world still runs off steam ;)16:20
Macerof all things. all the advancements in the world.. and we still use steam for almost everything we do in our daily lives16:21
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lcukthere is nothing wrong with steam.16:21
RST38hglass: water powered vending machine?!? URL!16:21
Macerlcuk: if you say so16:21
lcuklol, its one of your scp articles probably16:21
glassRST38h: theres one url. i think it was an episode of modern marvels that i caught it on16:22
Maceri just figured a steam/turbine method would be replaced by now16:22
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glassRST38h: actually that one was slightly different, it had a soap ball16:22
lcukMacer, its the simplest most understood method of energy transfer.16:22
glassi think fist is more understood16:23
SpeedEvillcuk: water is probably older.16:23
lcukeven cavemen could boil water - of course using chemical reactions would be similar, but it wouldnt be sustainable16:23
lcukand the alternative is nuclear16:23
RST38hglass: holy shit16:23
glassRST38h: persians had lots of fancy shit too quite early16:23
RST38hlcuk: nuclear reactors use steam for heat transfer16:23
lcukbows and frilly bits?16:23
maswanThe reason for steam turbines is that most energy sources make heat.16:23
SpeedEvilAnd steam turbines - done well - can convert quite a lot of that heat into energy.16:24
lcuki thought bebblebeds didnt16:24
MaceN8x0maswan, dont all energy sources make heat?16:24
lcukyou are of course right16:24
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SpeedEvillcuk: not directly - but the secondary coolant loop often involves steam - heated by the gas flowing throught the pebblebed.16:25
RST38hBTW, if you want really scare nuclear accident footage, check out the Japanese accident where primary heat transfer loop breached16:25
maswanMaceN8x0: Well, some only as a side effect. Hydroelectric generators don't really rely on heat, other than very indirectly.16:25
SpeedEvilBasically as it's a _hell_ of a lot safer to have your turbines not running on radioactive shit :)16:25
MaceN8x0RST38h, where?16:25
* SpeedEvil suffered a radioactive accident a couple of weeks ago in my trousers.16:26
RST38hThe Japanese used sodium for the heat transfer, so you can imagine - super heated sodium vapor, humid air, etc16:26
RST38hA moment16:26
MaceN8x0SpeedEvil, until we run out of coal?16:26
SpeedEvilUnfortunately, nothing has grown vastly and turned green.16:26
RST38hSpeed: That penis enlargement gadget did not quite work? =)16:26
SpeedEvil(A tritium glowing keychain - somehow it lost its gas)16:26
RST38hmacer: Enjoy:
RST38hmacer: Also read on the government handling of the accident, just to give you some perspective =)16:27
* suihkulokki would like to buy one these:
lcukthanks SpeedEvil16:28
SpeedEvilsuihkulokki: _complete_ bullshit.16:28
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SpeedEvilsuihkulokki: Yes - it technically can be built. _ABSOLUTELY_ no way your small groups can get permission to install a 100Kw reactor.16:29
MaceN8x0Wikileaks is overloaded by global interest16:29
jaskaLithium-6 Deuteride :D16:29
SpeedEvilLiD is actually not a proliferation concern somuch.16:29
SpeedEvilYou need the fissile materials - and a _hell_ of a lot of engineering to make it go off.16:30
jaskathe engineering part is probably harder for that type of weapon16:30
MaceN8x0wonder if the maemo4 media player can do wmv16:30
SpeedEvilUnless of course you can get the pulse of neutrons for ignition from: - somehow16:31
lcukMaceN8x0, the sub version works16:31
SpeedEvil(which seems impractical)16:31
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MaceN8x0lcuk, the one that told me i have an old flash?16:33
lardmanright I've booked at the Ibis Central then, ~500 euros for 4 nights16:33
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lardmanIBIS AMSTERDAM CENTRE HOTEL to be exact16:34
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VDVsxlardman, I'm afraid that someone already booked for the other one :(16:35
lardmanyeah I saw that, he may be able to shift his booking if he explains as it is the same hotel chain16:35
VDVsxbut someone have to ping the guy16:36
lardmanyes indeed16:36
lardmanit might be worth pinging the list just in case other people have also booked in the wrong place16:37
VDVsxis Uwe Koch here ? or someone knows him ?16:37
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Captain_Picardsuihkulokki: i want one of those!16:38
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Captain_PicardMini Nuclear Reactor at homr!16:38
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MaceN8x0talk about a crap connection16:38
MaceN8x0i have it paused waiting to see the sodium leak in engrish16:38
lcukRST38h, that guy is an hero16:41
RST38hlcuk: Absolutely16:41
lardmanVDVsx: I can't see an email for that user, did you spot one?16:41
RST38hlcuk: And he keeps busy too: (see 2007 Arrest)16:41
VDVsxlardman, nop16:41
* lcuk nods16:41
VDVsxlardman, but X-Fade can help us16:42
lardmanX-Fade: ping16:42
lardmanVDVsx: do you want to post a message to the list & Talk thread pointing out the change?16:42
VDVsxyes will do it16:42
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Macerwow. is sodium like... that volatile?16:43
Maceri didn't know sodium was so serious16:43
SpeedEvilIf it touches water - yes16:43
lardmanVDVsx: thanks16:43
lcukmacer, on an industrial scale anything can be dangerous, but yeah sodium has its fair share of real issues16:43
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lardmanMacer: obviously why the Russians built into a sub nuclear reactor :)16:43
Macerthose space suits didn't help?16:44
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* lcuk drops 10 tonne of industrial feathers on macer16:44
Macerpoint taken16:44
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VDVsxlardman, can you acess TMO ?16:50
MaceN8x0why did they run out?16:51
lardmanVDVsx: yep16:52
VDVsxlardman, I can't :(, strange16:53
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VDVsxneither google, wtf16:53
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VDVsxlardman, it seems that I can't acess overseas servers atm, can't post the messages now :(16:57
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lardmanno rush don't worry17:02
lardmando you know which thread it was supposed to be posted to? I can do it for you if you want17:02
VDVsxin the same thread,
dnearyVDVsx: Ping?17:04
VDVsxdneary, pong17:04
dnearyYou changed the hotel that the Ibis link is pointing to in the wiki17:04
dnearyWas that deliberate?17:04
MacerRST38h: was expecing more mayhem17:05
Macerthat's the best one you got?17:05
VDVsxdneary, yes17:05
dnearyAmsterdam West still has rooms at 80 euros a night, and Amsterdam Centrum's 12017:05
lardmanit didn't agree with the one Quim pointed out17:05
RST38hMacer: Well, it happened in the enclosed space, fortunately17:05
dnearySo which one are people actually staying in?17:05
lardmanmight be worth putting it back on, but not saying that it's the main one17:05
VDVsxdneary, center17:05
dnearyThat's where people with travel funding have been put?17:06
dnearyLooks like some people (looking at the rates mentioned on the wiki page) booked the non-refundable rate on the internet for the cheaper one, though.17:06
VDVsxis a bit more far from the venue17:07
lardmanthe hotel may be happy to move them, it's within the same chain, and the price will only go up17:07
VDVsxarrrg, stupid ISP :(17:08
Macernever knew about that one17:10
RST38hThere is more than one you have never known about...17:10
lardmandneary: I was going to email the community list and add a post to the accommodation thread on TMO to point out the confusion17:11
lardmanor VDVsx was, but can't access the sites, so I will]17:11
dnearyI'm confused now. I think I'll find out where Quim is staying & book in there17:11
lardmanwe need to make it clear17:12
lardmanI just booked mine and spotted the difference so started asking17:12
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VDVsxlardman, can only acess european servers atm, it seems :(17:12
lardmanis Maemo not European?17:13
hexa-is there a way to install maemo in like virtualboxß17:13
VDVsxlardman, yes, tmo no17:14
lardmanah, still a redirect from itt17:14
VDVsxlardman, I can edit the wiki, if needed17:14
lardmannp, I'll post something17:15
amit_usualhexa: yes their is a maemo vmware project
hexa-amit_usual thanks alot17:15
amit_usualyou can run the same files with virtualbox as well17:15
amit_usualhexa-: but you do not have maemo5 as yet you will only get diablo17:16
RST38hOr just install latest Ubuntu and use it17:16
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hexa-hm i do have latest ubuntu17:16
hexa-how would tht work?17:17
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lcukcan i run mobile internet and wifi at the same time17:20
lcukso i can adhoc locally for my laptop but still get out onto the wide interent17:21
JaffaHmm, anyone good at app naming?17:24
lardmanVDVsx, dneary: I've added a post to the Summit accommodation TMO thread and just sent an email to the maemo-community list, saying that the wiki was wrong17:24
VDVsxlardman, thanks;)17:24
lcukJaffa, not me17:24
lcuki keep licking things17:25
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dnearylardman: Just booking Ibis Central17:34
dnearyHope you're not lying to me ;)17:35
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mgedminbooking? time to book!17:36
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mgedminhm, I don't read TMO nor maemo-community ...17:36
* mgedmin should17:36
lardmandneary: nope, just cost me >500 euros17:36
lardmanso I hope I can claim a bit back17:36
lardmanmgedmin: community is relatively high brow17:38
mgedmindoes that mean low traffic?17:38
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lardmanno it means the traffic is useful17:38
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lardmanI don't think there;s that much either, but check the archives to be sure17:39
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Stskeepswb GeneralAntilles17:42
lardmanhey GeneralAntilles17:43
mgedminI don't suppose the Ibis has free wifi?17:44
lardmanno idea, didn't check I'm afraid17:44
lardmanif not there's bound to be a cafe nearby that does, assuming the cafes over there are as enlightened as they are in the UK/US17:45
lardmanprob more so :)17:45
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mgedminwhoa, 120 eur/night17:46
lardmanpretty standard for a city isn't it?17:46
RST38hMultiply by 1.4317:47
mgedmindunno, I expected 70--80 EUR17:47
lardmanEuro -> £ exchange rate is crap atm, breakfast for £13pp was what shocked me17:48
RST38hIn just 4 nights, you would be able to afford an N90017:48
* mgedmin re-checks the dates17:48
mgedminno, it's october, not september17:48
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lardmanotherwise it would start tomorrow ;)17:50
mgedminI thought when I went back to correct the number of days the form might've reset to defaults17:51
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VDVsxlardman, saw your posts ;), I'm back :P18:00
Jaffalo GeneralAntilles18:01
lardmanhi Jaffa18:01
* Jaffa needs an app name for something which will enrich your contacts/address book with information from elsewhere18:03
JaffaSome kind of mythical information-collecting beast? Hydra's are multi-headed, of course; so that might work.18:03
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lardmandoes it have hooks?18:03
lardmanor claws :)18:05
StskeepsVDVsx: any good clues on how to avoid doing hidd --connect constantly? :P media centre scenario18:06
* mgedmin discovers that there are apparently no direct flights from vilnius to amsterdam!18:06
VDVsxStskeeps, the hidd device should be able to auto-connect if trusted, you only need to do it one time18:06
Stskeepshm, ok18:07
* Stskeeps wonders what goes wrong in his setup then18:07
VDVsxhowever there's a bug in ubuntu 9.0418:07
Stskeepsah :P18:07
VDVsxStskeeps, 1 sec18:07
* mgedmin hates travelling18:09
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StskeepsVDVsx: thanks18:11
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SamPieterhello all19:01
SamPieterI'd like to sync contact, calendar, etc. from my osX laptop to my N81019:02
SamPieterWhat would you recommend?19:02
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bulfaiterSamPieter: I tried, and the best I got was a two way sync. osX to scheduleworld/funambol, and n8x0 to scheduleworld/funambol19:05
bulfaiterI used syncEvolution
bulfaiterand, to display the PIM data19:05
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jaksuHi, does anyone know that is there javame support in n90019:05
bulfaiterthe pimlico suite19:05
bulfaiterin the nokia19:05
SamPieterbulfaiter: and are you happy with it?19:06
bulfaiterwell: even if it was the best solution I got, it was far from perfect19:06
bulfaiterthe contacts work fairly well19:07
SamPieterwould upsyncing from osX to google, and then from google to n810 work? have you tried that?19:07
bulfaiterat the time I tried19:07
bulfaiterthere was no support19:07
bulfaiterbut syncevolution is improving a lot19:07
msh_SamPieter: which calendar are you using?19:07
bulfaiteras it's the chosen way to sync moblin platform19:07
SamPietermsh_: I am usung iCal on my OSX and have not chosen one for my n81019:08
SamPieterusung? using19:08
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bulfaiter <- this list thread19:10
bulfaitertalks about gpe and pimlico19:10
bulfaitertake a look at it :)19:10
SamPieterso, direct syncing from OSX to N810 is out of the question?19:11
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bulfaiteras far as I know, it is19:11
bulfaiterif talking about contacts/calendar19:11
bulfaiterI think there's a 3d party app19:11
bulfaiterwho can sync multimedia19:12
bulfaiterusing some xml for configuration19:12
bulfaiterand allowing you to chose from iphoto and itunes19:12
bulfaiterdo you want me to look betwee my links?19:12
SamPieterYou know the 'todo' app Things, for OSX?19:12
SamPieterah bunner19:13
andre__i think in Bugzilla i am going to rename "Virtual keyboard" to "Virtual keyboard (halfscreen)" and "Finger keyboard" to "Virtual keyboard (fullscreen)", as Nokia calls the Finger keyboard "Virtual keyboard" in Fremantle. Comments?19:13
SamPieterI'll take a gander at the gpe,pimloci & syncevolution URL's19:13
bulfaiterok :)19:14
SamPieterandre__: or virtual keyboard (halfscreen) and virtual keyboard (for finger usage)19:14
andre__too long... :-)19:15
SamPietervirt.keyb 4 fingars19:15
javispedrovirtual keyboard (finger), virtual keyboard (stylus) :P19:15
SamPieterI like that19:15
andre__well, i try to find the best terms for average users here...19:15
javispedrovirtual keyboard (thumb) ;)19:16
andre__and i think halfscreen and fullscreen should even work for normal people. at least i hope so :-P19:16
qwerty12_N810I-don't-know-what-to-call-it keyboard :)19:16
bulfaiterSamPieter: there's another link you should check:
SamPieterI like the finger/thumb name19:16
andre__i also use the virtual keyboard with my fingers. as i have fingernails. :-P19:16
javispedrothe stylus one?19:16
SamPieterbulfaiter: got it!19:16
andre__well, i think that halfscreen/fullscreen differentiation is fail-safe19:16
andre__you don't convince me with the argument that something else sounds cooler ;-))19:17
SamPieterbut it does not tell you which one you can use with what input 'tool'19:17
SamPieterstylus/thumb(finger) does that19:17
javispedroandre__, for a 770 user, stylus/finger was the official marketing iirc19:17
javispedrofor a newbie user... i wouldn't say19:17
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andre__javispedro, argh19:18
andre__i hate it when Nokia changes names every release :-/19:18
javispedroyou asked :)19:18
andre__sure, cause i want feedback :)19:18
andre__but in Fremantle the settings call it "Virtual keyboard" :-/19:18
andre__which is known as Finger keyboard to us...19:19
javispedro"Virtual keyboard" and "Geek keyboard"19:19
andre__Done in Bugzilla. one more fremantle blocker off my list...19:19
javispedro"Virtual keyboard" and "Stylus keyboard" :)19:19
* lcuk wants voice print identification19:20
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SpeedEviliris recognition should be plausible19:21
lcukis that a confirmation of macro zooming on n900?19:22
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javispedro"Welcome to the N900. Please put on front of the back camera to begin identification."19:22
lcukit should simply be "welcome to the n900, smile"19:22
javispedroThen proceed to identify the user's iris from the VGA photo.19:23
Jaffalcuk: People will when they start playing with them!19:23
lcuk+1000 internets19:23
timeless_mbpandre__: *sigh*19:23
andre__timeless_mbp, true that.19:23
timeless_mbphas anyone here used backup in the n810 to restore applications?19:23
timeless_mbpI have an app "Tennix 2009 World Tennis Championship Tour"19:24
timeless_mbpand it's doing serious damage to HAM19:24
thptimeless_mbp: (that's my app/package) - what's wrong with it?19:25
timeless_mbpthp: the name is way too wide19:25
timeless_mbpHAM has a number of places where it composes strings19:25
timeless_mbp"Installing %s"19:26
timeless_mbp"%s <size>"19:26
thpoh :( i thought "serious" damage..19:26
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timeless_mbpi can't use backup's restore feature properly19:26
timeless_mbpit told me i had 100mb of apps to restore19:26
timeless_mbpbut i can't see which apps are big19:26
timeless_mbpbecause of this19:26
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thpmaybe the column with the name should have its ellipsize property set correctly?19:27
timeless_mbpyeah, well19:27
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timeless_mbpthat assumes the people designing this stuff are ...19:27
timeless_mbpplease don't make such unreasonable assumptions/requirements, it's too late :(19:27
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thpi could re-upload the package with a shorter name..but it would only be a workaround for now19:28
* timeless_mbp nods19:28
timeless_mbpsomeone will file a bug, but the odds of it being fixed for release are nill19:29
thpis that in diablo or fremantle or both?19:29
timeless_mbpi'd have to find a diablo device19:29
timeless_mbpthere's one somewhere on this desk19:29
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mgedminkeesj: looking at your Maemo Summit 2009 google map now19:48
lcukandre__, split them if possible19:49
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mgedminkeesj: what do you think about adding the "official" hotel there?19:50
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Jaffaandre__: And, of course, they're called "widgets" in Fremantle19:52
andre__gnarf. true. thanks. something for the todo list, after holidays19:52
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Jaffaandre__: When are you away?19:56
andre__Jaffa, from tomorrow to next Tuesday. will mention it on qaiku...19:57
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keesjmgedmin: I think it would be good to add more stuff :p20:03
keesjso adding hotel would be great indeed20:04
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mgedminkeesj: also, did I miss it or is there no link to your custom map from the maemo wiki?20:04
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keesjIndeed, I really like how they did it at the danish week-end , I was able to download pois' for maemo mapper20:05
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andre__mgedmin, btw: do you plan to port xchat to fremantle? the diablo version basically works fine here in fremantle. just a few minor issues, e.g. with autocompletion20:08
mgedminandre__: no concrete plans in near future, sorry20:08
mgedmingetting me a N900 might change that20:08
mgedminor it might not, knowing myself...20:08
mgedminfor reference, I didn't _port_ xchat to diablo; I took somebody else's port and recompiled it on diablo20:09
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keesjmgedmin: I also just sent you a link to allow editing of the map20:09
andre__mgedmin, ah, okay. just saw your name as Maintainer when installing20:09
mgedminI think dpkg puts that when you build... or maybe I changed debian/control so people would know whom to blame about this particular .deb20:10
lcukif that was the reason why didnt you put andre's name ;)20:11
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andre__lcuk, because folks like me what ping me. i don't want that!! ;-)20:11
lcukbut they wouldnt be pinging mg and thats the point :D20:12
mgedminI don't mind being pinged20:12
mgedminmaybe somebody will believe me and send me a free n90020:12
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lardman~seen wooly20:28
infobotwooly <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 25d 4m 9s ago, saying: 'tattie bye folks'.20:28
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lardmanAnyone know Wooly's given name?20:28
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lardmannever know20:29
lardmanof sheep20:29
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RST38hWired is reporting that the well-known "placebo effect" seems to be increasing as time goes on. Fewer and fewer medications are actually making it past drug trials since they are unable to show benefits above and beyond a placebo.20:34
glassor they're gone through most of the good stuff already in tests20:36
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RST38hWell: Two comprehensive analyses of antidepressant trials have uncovered a dramatic increase in placebo response since the 1980s. One estimated that the so-called effect size (a measure of statistical significance) in placebo groups had nearly doubled over that time.20:36
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RST38hWatching too much TV no doubt =)20:37
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glassopiats fix everything(also the exact problem with them, haha..)20:37
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BluesLeecrashanddie_: peng20:44
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timeless_mbpandre__: i'd be glad to see them split20:46
timeless_mbpandre__: so the story of osx and stuff..20:47
andre__it's on my todo list20:47
dnearySheesh! preparing this list in wiki format is long20:47
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andre__first want to solve two issues i consider blockers myself... unclear stuff in current bugzilla20:48
andre__well. if i have enough time left20:48
andre__else next week20:48
timeless_mbpfor OSX you basically do some magic with iSync20:48
timeless_mbpit supposedly involves SyncML and stuff20:48
timeless_mbpand the odd thing is that part of this already exists20:48
timeless_mbpwe don't know what's wrong w/ the OS X bridge20:48
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timeless_mbpwhen you plug in an n900, you will get a pretty icon on your 10.5+ desktop20:49
timeless_mbpactually, you should get a really pretty icon20:49
timeless_mbpbut for some reason we're currently using my draft icon instead of the better one20:49
timeless_mbpi need to poke someone20:49
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* javispedro imagines a WSOD 770 used as icon ;P20:52
RST38hheya javis20:53
RST38hjavis: found the hw scaling code already?20:54
javispedroah, nope, didn't look at it20:54
javispedrojust fixed the rom.gz thing20:54
javispedro(yeah, the pathname manipulation wasted more time than replacing fopen, etc calls with gzopen equivalents)20:54
wazdoh, noksnes can open stuff from .gz?)20:55
javispedrothe devel version is just being uploaded should :)20:55
RST38hjavis: exactly - I basically include a block of stdio redefinitions under #ifdef ZLIB and forget about it20:56
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javispedroeither way I don't really need 3x zoom, unless you want to stretch or some other thing20:58
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RST38hjavis: hw scaling gives your basically free 2x or 3x zoom20:58
javispedroi'm using 2x hw scaling20:58
javispedrowith the xsp lib20:58
RST38hjavis: ah ok then you are all set20:59
javispedroyeah, wazd was complaining because it does some kind of antialiasing20:59
RST38hit does. it is the hw thing, can't fix it20:59
javispedrowhich I find nice but I can understand some games feeling blurrry with it.20:59
javispedrodoing anykind of sw scaling is _horrible_, I get an instant 5fps drop21:00
RST38hyou can also add sw x2 scaling with tv effect :)21:00
wazdjavispedro: well, nothing serious in AA at all21:00
wazdjavispedro: I was just checking for possibility, not complaining :P21:01
javispedrowazd, hehe, don't mind :)21:01
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wazdI remember I was playing sega on 21" CRT TV and now I can see same thing in a 3x3cm space :)21:03
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RST38hN900 will let you plug that CRT back =)21:04
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BluesLeedoes someone use the maemo sdk vm?21:06
javispedrooh, you bang omapfb directly21:06
RST38hmore or less21:06
RST38husing ioctl21:06
javispedrocurrently i'm using xshm through sdl21:08
javispedroand xsp to control the pixel doubling21:08
RST38hit is slower.21:08
RST38hWhen in full screen mode, you can use fb0 and hw scaling21:08
RST38hIn windowed mode, I use a gtk widget, it is more system friendly this way21:08
javispedroI need to check what does xsp do in fremantle btw21:09
RST38hhopefully the right thing21:09
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javispedrohopefully :)21:09
RST38hbut I have still found that going through x11 slows things down21:09
javispedrousing omapfb you get all the tearsync goodness21:10
RST38hI can actually avoid it, at the cost of lower framerate21:10
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RST38hRight now, I decided not to avoid tearsync, nobody complained so far21:10
lardmanI've just added a "Who's staying where" section to the Summit Accommodation page as people are starting to book now:
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lardmanhmm, should probably add in a hotel price to that table21:13
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lardmanmgedmin: sorry I added a new column21:15
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lardmantho' Cost: No was interesting :)21:16
mgedminI wish...21:16
lardmanlol yeah21:16
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* mgedmin now wonders about breakfast... if people plan to go grab a sandwitch somewhere else in the morning, it'd be more interesting than $generic_hotel_fare for 15 eur21:17
lardmanI don;t know really, was just really expensive for me ~£13 so I thought I'd play it by ear21:18
lardmanI'll go at least on the first morning I guess, then see what people think21:18
lardmandid you change 530 -> 570 or were my eyes decieving me?21:19
lardmanI wonder if it's worth putting up a page about when people are arriving/leaving and where from?21:20
mgedminI change ~530 to 570 yes21:21
mgedminIIRC it was 530 w/o breakfast and 570 with21:21
lardmanI was going to say you got a bargain otherwise21:21
lardmanhmm, mine was 510.30 Euros21:21
mgedminflex+ means I can change my mind about breakfast at any time, right?21:21
lardmanno idea, didn't check21:22
lardmanthat was the only option I saw though21:22
mgedminsince 4 * 15 = 60, 510 is same price as my reservation would've been21:22
lardmanah ok21:22
mgedminthe other options would've been cheaper21:22
lardmanI didn't get any other options strangely21:22
lardmanonly the flex+ was offered21:22
mgedminall booked out maybe21:22
lardmanor because I'm not in Europe perhaps21:22
mgedminthere's only a month left21:23
lardmanyeah, that's why I wanted to start to get moving on it21:23
lardmanjust changed my cost to the exact amount :)21:23
lardmanright, must fly, back later on21:24
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lcuklardman|afk, can i add roomtype as penthouse :D21:25
mgedminunderground lair...21:25
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lcukthat sounds cool21:26
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wazd - even LG can make *5* row keyboard :)21:28
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* Mousey likes21:29
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zerojayPC5 row keyboards don't help if you have a hard time hitting specific buttons.21:32
andre__i could also have a 26 rows keyboard... but does that help anybody?21:33
GeneralAntillesI demand an integrated Model M!21:33
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lcukwazd, so, lg have 3 row keyboards ( ), 4 row keyboards ( ) and now 5 row keyboards21:33
lcuki think nokia should saw fuck it and go for 1021:34
lcuk:D andre__21:34
andre__lcuk, the trick is to turn it by 90 degrees. took me a while to find out though.21:34
javispedroI want 512x512 keyboard21:35
lcuki have an 800*480 one21:35
zerojayPCI'd much rather have a 3 row keyboard if it means that I'll have a very easy time typing on it.21:35
SpeedEviljavispedro: they do those - I think they are called dance mats.21:35
javispedrolcuk, you gave me an idea, i want an integrated optimus oled keyboard21:35
lcukit would be a cool thing to try21:36
lcukand you can get flexible ones too21:36
lcukso you could change the display to a reg keyboard and still have tactile feedback under where normal keys would be21:36
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lcukbut you could use it as a sidebar if required21:36
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* javispedro envisions $2000 N91021:38
SpeedEvilIt's not _quite_ impossible. There have been some related things along that line.21:38
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SpeedEvilFor example - braile boards that inflate teh dots using electrically heated gas to make a bubble21:38
RST38hInflatable 3D display please.21:38
RST38hNo need for color.21:38
SpeedEvilyou could in principle do that on top of a display  - and make it transparent.21:38
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SpeedEvilBut it'd use _lots_ of power21:39
RST38hno shit21:39
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lcukRST38h, you are just thinking of the pron angle21:39
RST38hlcuk: what other angle is there?21:40
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RST38hreboot to linux, let us see if I can make alsa work in maemo21:40
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* javispedro reads a comment about debian switching to upstart "being good for ISVs"; brain attention span safeguard trips off.21:41
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RST38h-mtune=cortex-a8 -mfpu=neon -mfloat-abi=softfp -march=armv7-a21:46
RST38hremember these, you will use them more than once, soon enough ;)21:47
javispedroyeah, for now I removed the vfp ones for fremantle builds21:47
javispedro(it's been said gcc now defaults to them)21:47
Captain_Picard We will not go to 4"+ screens21:48
javispedroI wonder how we're going to build-depend on hw21:48
javispedrofor now guessing maemo4 = n8x0 maemo5=n900 works ok21:48
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RST38hjavis: Maemo4 is so different from Maemo5 that it is easier to submit two packages21:51
lcukso different?21:52
javispedroRST38h, up so far, I've been abusing m4 to do it :)21:52
javispedrom4 for debian/* files, cpp for source files.21:53
RST38hlcuk: Well, different libraries, different cpu arch, different UI21:53
RST38hlcuk: different audio, different display (apparently 32bpp)21:53
javispedroRST38h, no way21:53
lcukim running same on 810 and 90021:53
RST38hjavis: all s60e5 phones are 32bpp now21:53
lcuk16bit afaik21:54
RST38hlcuk: you are running yuv21:54
RST38hlcuk: care to run xwininfo on the desktop? ;)21:54
lcuk xwininfo21:54
lcuk-sh: xwininfo: not found21:54
javispedroit's not by default in the image21:54
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javispedroRST38h, either way, sdk requires 16bpp.21:55
javispedroso either there's truly a _big_ sdk update in the way, or ..21:55
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thopiekarhas someone of you a quick solution for my media player problems? my N800 isn't even able to play any files or internet stream's using mp3.. I think that problem is beating down the standby time of it as well.. lets say the turned off mode..22:09
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ShadowJKI guess you've tried restarting?22:19
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RST38hok, alsa support compiled, did not crash, but it makes no sound22:22
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thopiekarShadowJK: yes..22:32
thopiekarI searched for a configuration file in /home/user .. dunno where the settings of it are stored in maybe in gconf?22:34
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lbtJaffa: you about?22:39
thopiekarplease help.. don't want to reflash my device cause of the mediaplayer :/22:39
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andre__thopiekar, might be a metalayer-crawler issue, but just wildly guessing here22:42
thopiekarso what can I do to "clean it up"?22:43
Andy80sorry guys... maybe this could be an OT question but I'm really in trouble... why this command doesn't work: tar xfvz myroom/* baggage.tar.gz22:46
thopiekarcd myroom22:47
thopiekartar xfvz baggage.tar.gz22:47
thopiekaror take a look at tar --help22:47
Stskeepsisn't it c to create?22:47
thopiekarfor the option for the outputfolder22:47
thopiekarhe wants ot create a tar.gz :P22:48
thopiekarwhere is our bot btw :D22:48
RST38hanyone has alsa example for maemo4?22:48
infobotthopiekar meant: he wants to create a tar.gz :P22:49
thopiekarhey infobot, try to be faster ;D22:49
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Jaffalbt: pong23:06
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JaffaX-Fade: ping23:18
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JaffaX-Fade: Doesn't matter. Found the page I was looking for.23:20
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Proteousgod damn, how did they make ovi maps so unusable23:22
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JaffaSpecial skill.23:22
JaffaIt takes skill to make Navicore look good23:23
Proteousgoogle maps has this neat feature where you can put in a start and end location and it maps a router23:23
ProteousOVI maps, not so much23:23
Proteousfuck all if I can figure out how to fucking make it work23:23
JaffaProteous: You can do that. It's just somewhat unintuitive23:23
ProteousI did manage to get it to plan a router between my current location and where I want to go but fuck if you can actualy do something like, you know, review the route to make sure it's not trying to take the closed down bridge23:24
Proteouswell, you can have it do a real time simulation of the route23:24
Proteousif I wanted to wait for 1.5 hours to see what bridge it takes23:24
Proteoushow about you let me scroll around on the route and check it out? Maybe?23:24
ProteousI consider myself pretty computer savy, hell, I do IT work, but damn I can't for the life of me figure out OVI maps23:26
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JaffaX-Fade: Nope, need a ping: getting a "500 Server Error: Incomplete request" after hitting "Approve"23:28
RST38hAny kind human being has got an alsa example for maemo4?23:28
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javispedroRST38h, why wouldn't a Linux one work?23:38
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RST38hjavis: Dunno. It initializes and does not crash but it does not make sound either23:40
RST38hMaemo4 seems to be useing a different version from Maemo5, too23:40
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javispedroRST38h, it should work, SDLa wasn't modified for maemo afaik23:44
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javispedroyou may want to try to build "aplay" as a starting point23:46
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smackpotatoso ubuntu dims the screen when cpu usage hits 100%. is there anything for maemo that does this23:48
RST38hjavis: I suspect that I really need amixer to investigate what controls I have got23:48
RST38hIt may have some audio volume set low23:48
javispedroif you have my emu23:49
javispedroexport SDL_AUDIOBACKEND=alsa23:49
javispedrothen run it23:50
javispedroor anything else using sdla, openttd comes to mind.23:50
RST38hI am sure it will work. But I am not using SDL :(23:50
javispedrobut SDL uses ALSA :)23:51
RST38hWell, will figure it out eventually. So far, ESD seems to work for me, although it is more wasteful23:51
javispedroif it was muted it would fail.23:51
javispedroI've decided to settle for ESD23:51
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javispedroALSA breaks often, try rebooting23:52
javispedroe.g. not closing it properly sometimes leaves it in a confused state.23:52
javispedro(even if the caller app dies)23:52
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