IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-08-28

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zerojaySo, which Moby song will be on the N900 this time around?00:09
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zerojayThat i will promptly erase.00:09
javispedroalong with the 20 PDFs.00:09
SouBEI'm wondering if N900 has a stereo line-in socket00:09
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javispedroeven the older palms compressed any non-user locale data.00:10
johnsqslonopotamus: xournal compiled fine and works.00:11
slonopotamusjohnsq, uh?00:12
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johnsqslonopotamus: only wanted to tell it.00:13
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slonopotamusjohnsq, why? :)00:13
khertanjavispedro / with 64ko of memory you didn't have thne choice00:13
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timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: i was told by the people that they should be able to make quick updates at some point. i gave them half a dozen messages listing things they should fix :)00:13
johnsqslonopotamus: happy with gentoo :>, see the problems with maemo.00:13
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slonopotamusjohnsq, hehe :) how's on-battery time in gentoo, btw?00:14
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: hehe. Fine, nothing'll have changed content-wise :p00:14
timeless_mbpSouBE: the specs for the n900 were published00:14
timeless_mbpif you can't figure out the answer, then you didn't look hard enough00:15
johnsqslonopotamus: didn't tested it, when I carry it around i still use maemo, to listen music,00:15
slonopotamusi c00:15
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: not while they sleep, no :)00:15
slonopotamusjohnsq, i'm planning to do sound finally soon00:15
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: True that :)00:15
johnsqslonopotamus: I must, only problem remaining.00:16
SouBEtimeless_mbp: I just figured out00:16
zerojayOdd request.00:16
slonopotamusjohnsq, you must what?00:16
SouBEbut the specs don't tell if it has USB host chip00:16
khertanthree letter .... it s like MMS00:17
SouBEso bus power not available?00:17
johnsqslonopotamus: i must get the sound working, last problem i have currently with n810+gentoo00:17
zerojayThe next month is going to be the slowest ever.00:18
slonopotamusjohnsq, k :) will play with it this or next week00:18
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Luke-JrI need a calendar x.x00:20
zerojayI need a passport.00:20
sharpneliGentoo @ n810? Don't tell me you're actually doing the compilation with it?00:20
khertanmpim will be soon available00:20
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johnsqLuke-Jr: xcalender shout work out of the box00:21
johnsqshout = should00:21
woglindesharpneli there are some people doing it00:21
sharpneliI feel sorry for them.00:21
Luke-Jrjohnsq: …00:21
Luke-Jrsharpneli: we are00:21
Luke-Jrsharpneli: it's not too bad00:21
Luke-Jrseeing as the N810 isn't useful for anything else much00:21
khertanlcuk compile his code on his  nit00:21
zerojayDidn't maser give up on gentoo?00:21
Luke-Jryeah, that coward00:21
Stskeepsgah, being on another timezone sucks. i don't want to go to bed before midnight :(00:22
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woglindestskeeps where are you?00:22
Stskeepswell .dk right now00:22
ArSahm... so n900 now has 266dpi. that's crazy.00:23
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SouBEwhat is a proximity sensor?00:23
zerojayThat is pretty hardcore.00:23
StskeepsSouBE: it senses zombies00:23
timeless_mbpArSa: it works nicely00:23
johnsqSouBE: looks if you are in front of the device00:24
zerojayN810 dpi?00:24
Stskeeps225 wasn't it?00:24
ArSaabout 22000:24
timeless_mbpStskeeps: sounds closer to the number i remember00:24
timeless_mbpStskeeps: it's half past here.... we're considering food evenutally :)00:24
infobottimeless_mbp meant: Stskeeps: it's half past here.... we're considering food eventually :)00:24
Stskeepsannouncement afterparty? ;)00:24
wiretappediirc the neo1973 is 280dpi :)00:25
ArSai am just wondering what exactly that can be used for. 220 is already perfectly fine for anything.00:25
derfI thought it's a 3.5" screen?00:25
woglindewiretapped but your neo is out of power after 2 hours00:25
derf800/3.5 is about 228.00:25
* wiretapped doesn't have a smartphone00:26
keesjcan the n900 be used one day long?00:26
timeless_mbpStskeeps: nah, integration work00:26
timeless_mbpkeesj: if you leave it plugged into a charger :)00:26
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timeless_mbp(n.b.: your question fails to parse as English)00:27
zerojayI do that anyways with my n810 and n95 at work. No biggie.00:27
wiretappedholy crap the SE xperia X1 has a 3 inch 800x480 == 312 dpi ?!?!00:27
ArSaderf 3.5 is diagonal, not width.00:27
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derfOh. That's really freaking small.00:28
ArSathat's paper, pretty cool00:28
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MrGooseany word on which mobile company will have the honors of distributing n900s?00:37
jeremiahRumors have it T-Mobile in the US00:37
ArSawhy should it be any company?00:37
MrGooseArSa: It shouldnt00:37
ArSaoh, that's not a rumor00:37
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MrGoosebut it will00:37
ArSait will only work on T-Mobile's frequencies00:37
ArSathe radio doesn't work on at&t00:38
woglindeprice is the killer00:38
SpCombany rumours on the price point?00:38
ArSamy previous research showed that nobody actually made a quad-band WCDMA radio00:38
johnsqwoglinde: wait for 910 than it will drop00:38
woglindejohnsq haha00:38
Stskeepsinteresting twitter by quim, heh00:38
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MrGooseso is the ARM Cortex 8 speed thats quoted 1GHz or 600 MHz?00:39
GeneralAntillesSouBE, proximity sensor senses your face to turn the screen off.00:39
Proteousthe nice thing about tmobile is that you cas00:39
woglindemrgosse 60000:39
GeneralAntillesSouBE, OTG provides 100mA of bus power.00:39
Proteousaer can get no contract data for cheap00:39
woglindeMrGoose its the same as in the beagle board00:40
MrGoosewoglinde: "the" beagle board?00:40
woglindeMrGoose??? you didnt hear about beagle board?00:40
MrGooseI know about the beagle board00:41
woglindethan why asked00:41
woglindeits the same proc00:41
MrGoosebut I didnt know that it only came with one ARM Cortex 8 processor00:41
GeneralAntillesOr nearly.00:41
GeneralAntillesIt comes with a Cortex A8, a DSP, a GPU and an ISP.00:41
MrGoosethe beagle board?00:41
zerojayYou thought it was triple core? Lol00:42
GeneralAntillesArguably it is.00:42
* MrGoose ponders getting a beagle board for funzies00:42
woglindemrgoose this a beagle board clone but with better enhancements00:43
woglindefor 149 euros00:43
khertanoh you are doing the hotline on n900 announced specifications here ?00:43
woglindethey said it should be available at sep00:43
GeneralAntillestimeless, Nokia seriously needs to find at least one person to proof read things before they launch.00:43
timeless_mbpi was given creds too late00:43
GeneralAntillesIt's getting embarrassing.00:43
timeless_mbpand was told in no uncertain terms it was too late for launch00:43
timeless_mbpit was embarrassing the last time00:44
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zerojayI want to do it.00:44
GeneralAntillesThe SDK announcements are particularly fun.00:44
GeneralAntillesI'd LOVE to help with that.00:44
timeless_mbpi try to read a chapter or so of the sdk00:44
timeless_mbpbut i usually only manage 10 or so pages00:44
timeless_mbpi sent them feedback earlier this week00:44
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zerojayAs much as i love working in games, working on maemo would be awesome.00:45
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GeneralAntillesFiled some bugs on m.n.c in bugzilla00:45
GeneralAntillesHopefully Quim notices them.00:45
Stskeepsi nominate zerojay for typomaster00:46
khertangood night everyone00:46
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zerojayI already do it for our games.00:47
zerojayYou'd think writers would know how to write, but nooooo. ;)00:47
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timeless_mbphaving been here as long as you have, you should know that the people here don't know how to write00:49
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zerojayPCYeah, that's what's funny.00:54
zerojayPCIf professional english writers come up with error after error every few lines, what hope do the Finns have of being any better? lol00:55
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zerojayPCThis stuff happens when you have programmers writing strings.00:57
ArSaso what's up with second camera? nothing in specs00:57
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simulathe user facing camera?00:58
zerojayPCLow end again, I would imagine.00:58
zerojayPCIt's kind of the point anyways... since it's meant for video chat.00:58
ArSai am wondering about 3g use, actually00:59
ArSaor any useful use for that point :P00:59
ArSa(unlike current one)00:59
simulai am wondering about a wimax version00:59
javispedroand i am wondering about a 4.1'' version.00:59
ArSadidn't they stop making wimax one anyways?01:00
ArSajavispedro for headset-only, i'd actually prefer that01:00
ArSaor even bigger01:00
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zerojayPC - Scary.01:02
javispedrohalloween party-scary.01:02
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zerojayPCMakes me think people who develop for Maemo are all stoners. lol01:04
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woglindehi javis01:07
VDVsxwell, I take drugs occasionally, lol, kidding ;)01:08
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VDVsxjeremiah, ping01:08
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GeneralAntillesWoo, more insane conspiracy theories on Talk.01:15
zerojayPCScreen's 800x480 again, right?01:17
GeneralAntillesitT was killed on purpose, apparently.01:17
GeneralAntillesgeneven needs to lay off the drugs or something.01:17
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zerojayPCman, why does the thumbs up and thumbs down take *forever* if it works at all for news?01:20
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jeremiahVDVsx: Pong01:24
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SunbEEmoin #maemo01:25
jeremiahSunbEEm: You're already in #maemo01:25
VDVsxjeremiah, strange thing here, I'm trying to build a package that use commands from itself in the rules file :P01:25
SunbEEmsorry, just getting this client working01:25
SunbEEmI just read of the release on slashdot of the new phone and foudn my way here.01:26
SunbEEmHas anyone investigated making maemo accessible to the blind?01:26
jeremiahVDVsx: heh, that is weird.01:26
wiretappedSunbEEm: welcome. don't believe the hype :)01:26
wiretappedactually, believe some of the hype.01:26
wiretappedbut not the "software freedom lovers" bit01:27
VDVsxjeremiah, yeah, using upstream ubuntu files, let me try with the debian ones :)01:27
javispedro[sigh, fourth time today]01:27
jeremiahVDVsx: I have to go to bed, but feel free to send me an email with an problems or issues. =]01:27
ArSaSunbEEm should be relatively easy if gtk/qt support that kind of thing (and i don't see why not)01:27
wiretappedso, in all the news, is there an actual release date?01:27
VDVsxjeremiah, ok, thanks :)01:28
zerojayPCwiretapped: Why not the "software freedom lovers" bit?01:28
wiretappedeg, when can I actually buy the thing?01:28
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wiretappedzerojayPC: because (unless I missed something) it will still have some essential pieces which are entirely closed01:28
wiretappedand no ogg support01:29
SunbEEmah I see. I just know that I'd love to have a phone/pda type of device that I could use as a blind person, and would far rather use Linux than a WIndows smartphone with equivalent software that costs hundreds of dollars.01:29
SpeedEvilBut exactly which hype to believe is a matter of some debate :)01:29
zerojayPCwiretapped: Can't have ogg support.01:29
SunbEEmI noticed that too, no ogg support01:29
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zerojayPCSpeex is supported.01:29
zerojayPCTheora isn't.01:29
zerojayPCToo many potential patent problems.01:29
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wiretappedzerojayPC, that is utter nonsense01:30
zerojayPCwiretapped: No, it's really not.01:30
wiretappedthe patent problems are nokia's patent revenue from MPEG01:30
zerojayPCwiretapped: lol... what?01:30
javispedroyeah, the "theora brings no benefits at all to the table" excuse sounds good enough alone.01:30
javispedrono need to decorate it with patent/conspiration stuff01:30
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wiretappedzerojayPC: if patents were a problem... how did n8x0 ship full of ogg files for the (proprietary) maps app?01:31
zerojayPCAnyways, regardless, ogg support will be provided by the community soon after release anyways, just like with the previous tablets.01:31
wiretappedand probably suck, just like with the previous tablets01:31
wiretappedzerojayPC: serious question.01:31
zerojayPClol... yeah, okay... whatever there.01:31
wiretappedhow do you explain all those oggs they shipped?01:31
* wiretapped doesn't see any submarines01:32
timeless_mbpthose were a third party's01:32
MrGoosewoglinde: how do you order from their website? It doesnt seem obvious01:32
javispedrowiretapped, you say community ogg support sucks, why do you think anything nokia mades will be better? ;)01:32
zerojayPCProbably because the company that made it, Navicore, licensed ogg for the mapping program.01:32
timeless_mbpthe third party would have been the one sued01:32
timeless_mbpnot nokia01:32
wiretappedwtf is the difference, nokia's product includes an ogg player out-of-box, it just isn't easily usable01:32
wiretappedlicensed ogg from who?01:32
GeneralAntillesOGG again?01:32
zerojayPCAnd how exactly does the community supported version suck? I don't exactly see you jumping to help anyone make it better.01:32
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GeneralAntillesCan we just lay down a channel ban on this discussion already?01:33
zerojayPCYeah, please.01:33
wiretappedGeneralAntilles: sorry :(01:33
GeneralAntillesRehashing the same points over and over every month or so it getting old.01:33
wiretappedeverybody just read bug 17601:33
wiretappedand stfu01:33
VDVsxgreat, resident trolls ? :P01:33
* wiretapped will now01:33
GeneralAntillesWe just need to put together a kickass community support package and call it a day.01:33
zerojayPCTo do that, we need to know what is apparently so wrong with the current one.01:33
wiretappedhopefully SIMD will make it not suck01:33
zerojayPCWhich works perfectly fine for me.01:33
javispedroor point the community to Nero's free as in beer AAC encoder. ;)01:33
GeneralAntillesNo sense whining over things Nokia does that we can't really influence. Especially when it's so easy to provide our own solutions.01:33
SunbEEmI'd feel perfectly fine using emacs and the shell for everything personally...01:34
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simulai'm going to try to use an ide on it... at least try :)01:34
zerojayPCYou know, actually trying to chip in and help with constructive criticism is a good part of being in a community like this one... not just yelling out "it sucks!" from the peanut gallery.01:35
lardmanit doesn't really "suck" atm, other than lack of integration01:36
lardmanand that's a problem with the openness of the current media player afaik01:36
zerojayPCWhat lack of integration?01:37
lardmanmetadata iirc01:37
zerojayPCThe oggs play perfectly fine for me in media player.01:37
zerojayPCAh... yeah, the tags, I guess.01:37
lardmanyes, that's the only issue I know of01:37
lardmanwhat are people moaning about, cpu load?01:37
GeneralAntillesWont be an issue with MAFW.01:37
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zerojayPCI haven't seen any CPU load issues when playing oggs.01:38
lardmanI know, just trying to work out what the complaints are about in that case :)01:38
GeneralAntillesComplaints seem to be largely political.01:38
zerojayPCYeah... like I said, hard to improve something if people don't tell us what the problems are.01:38
lardmanperhaps they are unaccustomed to seeing any ARM cpu load while playing music01:38
zerojayPCOr they're just picky bastards.01:39
zerojayPCWhich I am as well. lol01:39
lardmanwell certainly noone stepped up to help me with the DSP port01:39
zerojayPCI would if I could.01:39
lardmannot worth it on the C55 tbh, painful debugging, not enough memory and no 8bit type01:39
lardmancertainly not worth it if you're not being paid and don't even use ogg ;)01:40
GeneralAntillesNow this is an interesting spec: Maximum User Storage: 32 GB, NAND Memory 768 MB, SDRAM Memory 256 MB.01:40
wiretappedsince we're still talking about it... yeah, my complaint is practical as well as political.. but in response to the "theora brings no benefits at all to the table" argument: Wikipedia videos should work out-of-the-box.01:40
GeneralAntillesAre we booting from that 768MB and swap on the 32GB?01:40
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javispedroGeneralAntilles, url?01:41
simulahow many hours does a running 800 or 810 last?01:41
zerojayPCwiretapped: Is it just the lack of Theora then that's the issue?01:41
lardmanwiretapped: well once the hw comes out we'll create a DSP task then01:41
javispedroit's probably it's indeed booting from the 768MiB, and that's the one using UBIFS01:41
* wiretapped would like theora and vorbis01:41
lardmanit would be boring if everything was complete, nothing for us to do :)01:41
GeneralAntillesUnder memory.01:41
javispedrolol I should've read that carefullier01:41
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, I hadn't realized somebody was making a 1GB PoP.01:42
zerojayPCwiretapped: You just got done telling us that ogg support on the older tablets suck... is there anything else other than the lack of theora that made it suck?01:42
wiretappedcpu load.01:42
zerojayPCAnd the tags in media player not being read.01:42
wazdbtw, looks like n900 will be shipped earlier than Pandora :D01:42
lardmanGeneralAntilles: 3/4Gb or NAND?01:42
wiretappedand metadata01:42
zerojayPCAnd that's it?01:42
wiretappedand lack of out-of-box support is bad for the format's adoption01:43
lardmanhmm, my whole sentence was all wrong01:43
wiretappedwhich is the main issue01:43
lardmanwiretapped: yes, but Nokia are not here to spread formats01:43
GeneralAntilleslardman, SDRAM and NAND are on the same PoP.01:43
wiretappedright, certainly not ones which threaten ones that make them money01:43
lardmanwiretapped: mp3 and avi (xvid/divx) are most popular, so they support those out of the box01:43
wiretappedi'll stfu now01:43
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, Package-on-Package.01:43
wiretappedGeneralAntilles: sorry again01:43
wiretappedtalking in circles here.01:44
GeneralAntillesThe storage/RAM chip they slap on top of the OMAP.01:44
lardmanGeneralAntilles: means we'll need a 31Gb SD card though :)01:44
GeneralAntilleslardman, for?01:44
GeneralAntillesThe eMMC is soldered on the board.01:44
lardmanto get up to the maximum of 32Gb max storage01:45
GeneralAntillesYeah, weird way of phrasing it.01:45
GeneralAntillesThat's the eMMC though.01:45
lardmanah, so eMMC can take a max of 32Gb can it?01:45
GeneralAntillesDo they have 32GB MicroSDs yet?01:45
javispedrodunno if the 768MiB is the "virtual memory" they keep talking about or the rootfs01:45
GeneralAntilles32Gb is 8GB01:45
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: coming soon01:46
GeneralAntillesEr, 4GB.01:46
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, ah, thanks.01:46
lardmanjavispedro: I think there's 1Gb of NAND and 768MB is the swap01:46
lardmanup to 768...01:46
lardmananyway, where's my dmesg01:46
javispedrolardman, remember to ask about /proc/mtd when asking for the dmesg ;)01:46
* ljp wonders if he will ever get his hands on a rover01:46
lardmanmust be an N900 lurking here somewhere01:46
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, based on those specs, my suspicion is that the 768MB of NAND is rootfs/kernel01:46
GeneralAntillesSwap is probably on the 32GB.01:46
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: the 768mb is a parlor trick01:47
lardmanjavispedro: add it to the thread in Talk, I think one person has looked at it :)01:47
javispedroagreed, since then swap would be a file in the FAT32 partition01:47
timeless_mbpthere are 3 partitions of the big thing01:47
GeneralAntillesWhat's the status on FATx support in Linux these days?01:47
javispedrono need to confuse windows seeing a swap partition when usb-exporting the card01:47
timeless_mbpext3, fat32 and swap01:47
SunbEEmwell, I have to go eat, but I'll keep this project in mind. I hope the blind can use it, maybe by running Orca. Interesting group. I just know I don't want stupid Windows.01:47
lardmanso can apps be installed on the ext3?01:47
timeless_mbpthe root file system is ubifs and is closer to 256mb01:47
lardmantimeless_mbp: can you hit us with a dmesg? :)01:48
GeneralAntillesAh, didn't think there were 1GB PoPs.01:48
mkpaamy mplayer/canola youtube/video sound problem seems to persist. videos/sound (@youtube) work fine with browser, but no audio on mplayer/canola and video is playing faster than supposed01:48
javispedrolet timeless talk, damnit!01:48
timeless_mbplardman: i don't think i'm allowed to today01:48
GeneralAntilleslardman, email Quim?01:48
mkpaamplayer plays included .avi fine with sound and canola plays mp3 just fine01:48
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mkpaaany idea where the problem is hiding?-)01:48
timeless_mbpformally information disclosure is limited to what has been announced01:48
lardmantimeless_mbp: ok01:48
lardmanGeneralAntilles: will do01:48
lardmanhmm, not that important anyway really01:49
GeneralAntillesWont it be fun when people pop SDXC cards into their tablets and they just work?01:49
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javispedroah, you were asking for that01:49
javispedroexFAT it's called.01:49
GeneralAntillesAh, right.01:49
javispedroread-only with an out of tree kernel driver for now.01:49
* GeneralAntilles is in 360 mode still.01:49
timeless_mbpfwiw, we talked about how much effort would be required to have swap in the volume which currently has ubifs01:49
timeless_mbpthe estimate is something like 6 months iirc01:49
pupnikare there potentially alternatives to gcc for arm?01:49
timeless_mbpbecause swap wants a block device, and the root file system is not on a block device01:49
timeless_mbppupnik: technically yes01:50
timeless_mbppractically, probably not01:50
pupnikkay thx01:50
javispedroI only know the official arm one, it costs both kidneys01:50
lardmansome ARM toolchains, they cost though01:50
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, be nice if the standards board didn't eat Microsoft bribes for lunch.01:50
timeless_mbpmsvc can compile to arm fwiw01:50
lardmanelf though?01:51
javispedroGeneralAntilles, some members of that board must be way richer by now01:51
javispedroI don't know how could _that_ happen01:51
timeless_mbpanyway, i have stuff to do....01:52
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zerojayGo eat. ;)01:52
javispedropupnik, there's an ongoin llvm arm backend...01:52
javispedroi don't if it's usable or not, but would be interesting01:52
pupniki was thinking how the intel c compiler used to beat gcc on x8601:53
simulallvm arm backend... yummy01:53
lardmanpupnik: sumbit patches for the arm branch of GCC!01:53
javispedropupnik, yeah, the gap has been closing lately.01:53
pupnik-fprofile-generate might be good to try01:53
pupnikor whatever that runtime statistics and 2-pass compile is01:54
javispedrofirst I would try getting a newer cs gcc built01:54
timeless_mbpzerojay: oh, we did that :)01:54
pupniki had to disable gcc cache for it to work btw01:54
javispedroeven though cs2007 results in slower code :S01:54
pupnikcs gcc?01:54
javispedrowith drnoksnes I get a 5fps drop01:54
pupnikdrop with profile-use?01:55
javispedrono, drop with cs200701:55
javispedro(vs cs2005, the one I've made all public builds so far)01:55
GeneralAntillesFAT's bad enough, but giving Microsoft the opportunity to put a stranglehold on the portable storage market. . . .01:55
javispedrowhat's worse is that probably Nokia is paying royalties to MS.01:56
javispedroat this very moment, for FAT32.01:56
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javispedropupnik, I've tried profile-generate but generated executables were crashing here01:57
javispedrooprofile can also generate gprof data, so I hope it works that way01:57
lardman max memory card size 16Gb01:57
pupnikah dosbox crashed for me too with -generate01:57
lardmanhmm :)01:57
GeneralAntilleslardman, same as the N810 that can only use 8GB?01:57
javispedrodoes dosbox contain any arm asm?01:57
GeneralAntillesIt's just what they've certified it with.01:57
GeneralAntillesDoesn't have anything at all to do with what it can actually work with.01:58
javispedro(code where gcc cannot put any prologue)01:58
pupniknot the version i tried01:58
javispedroah, true01:58
GeneralAntillesAssuming you're not using exFAT, cards up to 2TB should work fine out of the box.01:58
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javispedromy guess is that with optimized code the uniwinding routine crashes if the timer interrupts in asm code01:59
javispedrobut seems that's not the case ... :P01:59
lardman work from Adobe themselves I assume02:01
lardmannot that I really care, but there is a lot of flash around these days02:01
lardmannice to see that updates might be forthcoming02:01
javispedroI wouldn't be surprised if they don't.02:02
lardmandepends how long the platform lasts and how popular it is02:02
lardmanI guess they will get updates as it looks like the flagship now02:03
javispedroheh, hope so.02:03
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javispedroI'm already seeing some marketing guy "the n900 was our first try at a non-geek device, but the n920 is truly our mainstreap product, with harmattan......"02:04
javispedromainstreap lol :P where's that gnome/gtk spellchecker language change menu I was asking for? :)02:04
zerojayYou got the iphone one instead. ;)02:05
javispedronaah, the gtkentry widgets all have some kind of spellchecking, but I can't see where to change the language02:05
lardmannot sure mainstreap is right in any lang :p02:05
javispedroseeing EVERYTHING i write with that red wavvy underline just because it's not spanish it's going to make me crazy.02:06
GeneralAntillesBe nice if mobile devices would ship with spellcheck.02:06
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* javispedro puts "hack desktop gtk to allow dict changes" in agenda.02:07
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pupnikwhat app is underlining in red?02:07
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javispedrobut I think is a gtk "feature".02:08
pupnikin chat text entry window?02:08
pupniknever saw that02:08
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javispedroi am seeing exactly _that_ menu, with no "switch dictionary" option.02:09
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timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: you can use the input method's prediction to try to test words02:10
timeless_mbpalthough t9 is better for that purpose02:11
timeless_mbpi'd imagine that fennec will someday include a spell checker02:11
timeless_mbpiirc there was an addin for microb which provided spell checking02:11
timeless_mbpas for flash.... it's tough02:11
timeless_mbpgetting flash 10 working is hard enough02:12
timeless_mbpour team really *wanted* flash 10 for fremantle02:12
timeless_mbpbut it was clear it wasn't feasible for first customer ship02:12
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* timeless_mbp grumbles02:12
timeless_mbpfwiw, there are some sites that won't work02:12
timeless_mbpyou pr0n ....02:13
timeless_mbpsince their content is encoded w/ too high of a bitrate iirc02:13
timeless_mbpbut youtube works reasonably well02:13
timeless_mbpvideo is also seeing improvements in transcoding02:13
javispedroit's already known nokia uses pr0n sites for testing, no need to make a fuss ;)02:13
mrmcq2uis it true that after maemo5 there will be a rewrite to qt?02:13
woglindemrmcq2u yes02:14
timeless_mbpso someday you might be able to use fennec w/ <video> and have an extension which arranges for your content to be transcoded02:14
timeless_mbpmrmcq2u: i'm not sure i'd call it a rewrite02:14
simulathe user facing webcam is 640x48002:14
ljpmrmcq2u: but gtk will still be on the device and community supported02:14
mrmcq2uwont that fragment the work which application developers do with maemo5?02:14
lardmantimeless_mbp: fm receiver? as indicated in the defconfig?02:15
ljpno, because application develoeprs will still be able to use gtk02:15
timeless_mbpmrmcq2u: doesn't nokia's use of s20, s40, s60, s80, and maemo fragment its community02:15
timeless_mbplardman: um02:15
mrmcq2uljp - so maemo5 apps will work on maemo6?02:15
timeless_mbpmrmcq2u: nokia wants to reduce its internal fragmentation02:16
timeless_mbpreducing the number of lines02:16
lardmantimeless_mbp: lol02:16
timeless_mbp(s80 is mostly gone, thankfully)02:16
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timeless_mbpi crashed the calculator02:16
* timeless_mbp wonders how02:16
ljpmrmcq2u: dont quote me, but I think so02:16
javispedrohey, the diablo calculator crashed the other day here too02:16
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* timeless_mbp crashed the clock a couple of times earlier (in gstreamer, asking it to play a JPEG as a WAVe file)02:17
javispedroi don't remember doing anything unusual...02:17
mrmcq2uWhat about ngage on maemo5?02:17
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timeless_mbplardman: so, the n800 didn't mention it had support for an fm radio02:18
timeless_mbpi.e. the software stack didn't expose it02:18
timeless_mbpmost likely a third party (nokia or otherwise) would provide such things02:18
lardmangood good02:18
mrmcq2uor an open equivalent?02:18
timeless_mbpwell, i'd hope most otherwises would be open....02:19
timeless_mbpbut i don't really care one way or the other02:19
lardmantimeless_mbp: though curious, assuming it's there ;), that Nokia haven't included that function too02:19
timeless_mbplardman: marketing tries to emphasize all the features it can02:19
timeless_mbpsometimes overselling, that's their job02:19
mavhc"Although no new Series 90 devices are expected, a form of the GUI lives on as Nokia's Hildon user interface in the Maemo shipped with Nokia Internet Tablets."02:19
timeless_mbpif they didn't sell something, it probably wasn't in the cards02:19
timeless_mbpmavhc: yep, sadly02:20
timeless_mbpwe inherited their ui designs02:20
* timeless_mbp grumbles02:20
lardmanhmm, ok02:20
mavhcI like it02:20
timeless_mbpmavhc: i'm glad you do02:20
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simulaare there any pedometer apps that would probably work with the n900?02:21
mavhcthe normal window size is the same aspect ratio as the full screen size02:21
timeless_mbpsimula: you look at
simulai am now :)02:22
timeless_mbpi'd hope you could figure out the answer by reading the content provided by marketing02:22
simulaif you can install it on the 800 or 81002:22
simulai would think you could install it on the 90002:22
* timeless_mbp frowns02:23
timeless_mbpthat isn't the way debian works02:23
timeless_mbpin debian, each version of a platform has different library versions02:23
timeless_mbpand apps are built against them02:23
simulai can always install from source :)02:23
timeless_mbpideally, the sources will enable you to build against a newer platform02:24
simulabuild-essentials will be my first install02:24
mrmcq2uare nokia directly competing with the iphone with regards to the n900?02:24
mrmcq2uif so they will need some games :)02:24
timeless_mbpmrmcq2u: i'd rather that sort of question not be asked here02:24
timeless_mbpplease feel free to spam talk.m.o instead02:24
javispedro_hum... x-chat-gnome allows me to change the spell checker language, so it's a x-chat missing feature after all.02:24
timeless_mbpbut, generally one does not try to rely on binaries built against older platforms02:25
Luke-Jrwhat do you think about OmniaPRO instead of N900? ;)02:25
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timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: buy me one and i'll let you know in a year :)02:26
mrmcq2utimeless_mbp - I think the n900 is better than the iphone, I was just pointing out that one of the iphones success stories is the gaming aspect and that some though should go into either porting n-gage over to maemo5 or developing a more open successor02:26
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, I think I've been spoiled by OS X's global spellcheck.02:26
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: it's not even out yet I think?02:26
timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: so? :)02:26
Luke-Jrrumours €500 ($662)02:26
GeneralAntillesmrmcq2u, well, emulators wont be a problem.02:26
GeneralAntillesWe should be able to grab just about everything from Pandora.02:26
GeneralAntillesand we've got RST38h here.02:26
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: key thing that caught my eye: S3C6410 SoC ;)02:27
timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: i'm a software guy. translation?02:28
Luke-Jras long as the outside-SoC components are open, this thing has potential02:28
Luke-Jrkeyboard looks nice too02:28
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: S3C6410 is what the SmartQ uses02:28
Luke-Jrwhich we have full detailed specs for02:28
javispedrobah, someone already opened the x-chat bug for me (in ubuntu bugzilla)02:28
mrmcq2uemulators are nice but full 3d proper games would be nicer :D02:28
Luke-Jr"The QWERTY keyboard itself is a real treat. The keys are large and provide decent feedback so you can type at enviable speed. In fact, just for the sake of experiment, a good part of this preview was written on the handset itself. It wasn't the quickest way to do it of course, but it surely doesn't get much better in mobile phone terms."02:29
GeneralAntillesmrmcq2u, OK, how about PS1?02:29
* javispedro ponders about n64 emu. maybe too much for omap3 hardware.02:29
mrmcq2uthat is in my opinion why the palmpre has not been as successful as hoped, they didnt have any way with competing with apple from a gaming aspect02:29
GeneralAntillesmrmcq2u, Quake I/II/III02:29
GeneralAntillesWarzone 210002:29
lardmanFar Cry 202:30
javispedroOpenTTD :D02:30
GeneralAntillesThat's only with the SLI addon.02:30
lardmanah yes :)02:30
javispedroin special martian-blue edition.02:30
* javispedro adds "try to guess why the palette swap in xephyr" to agenda.02:31
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timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: has anyone done a detailed analysis of the app list?02:32
GeneralAntillestimeless_mbp, no.02:32
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* timeless_mbp wonders why not02:32
wazdI'd be happy with bunch of console emu's :)02:32
wazdPSX would be megakill :)02:33
javispedroPSX is doable02:33
GeneralAntilleswazd, hook up a Wiimote and boom.02:33
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wazdGeneralAntilles: well, I mean for n900 :)02:33
GeneralAntilleswazd, right.02:33
GeneralAntillesHook up a Wiimote and boom.02:34
wazdGeneralAntilles: why the hell I need Wiimote for n900? :)02:34
wazdGeneralAntilles: it's a wiimote itself :D02:34
GeneralAntillesNo joystick.02:34
javispedrono dpad.02:34
javispedrono nothing.02:34
wazdGeneralAntilles: Keyboard-accelerometer would be fine02:34
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wazdGeneralAntilles: for racing and stuff02:34
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wazdjavispedro: well, for arcades too :)02:35
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wazdRPG's, quests :)02:35
javispedrowith accelerometer.02:35
javispedroare you in amsterdam already or what? ;)02:35
wazdjavispedro: I never leave it :D02:36
mrmcq2ueh, well I am not a huge gamer myself which comes in handy considering I use 100% oss whenever I can but I don't think its outrageous to see a link between market share and gaming from both a desktop and mobile perspective, spec wise the n900 has the potential but some standards woudn't go astray. N-gage has done a good job at introducing social gaming to the portable market but its a fairly closed implementation. Maybe an open gaming alliance should be for02:37
javispedropupnik, was thinking about n900 n64 emu, but seeing the psp's manages only 2-3 fps in mario64.. seems the omap3 hw won't be enough.02:37
pupnikthat is the general consensus02:37
Luke-JrHTC Touch Pro2 seems like a Linux port is possible ö02:37
Luke-Jrand it actually has a row of number keys02:38
lardmannight all02:38
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pupniknight lardman02:38
* GeneralAntilles loves hypocrisy.02:40
mrmcq2uthat was random?02:41
GeneralAntillesmrmcq2u, nah, there's a history. ;)02:41
Luke-JrGeneralAntilles: have I not made perfectly clear that I don't care so much about vendor Linux support as *potential* Linux support from specs?02:41
Luke-JrI couldn't care less if a device ships with Linux02:41
Luke-JrI'm buying it for the hardware.02:42
GeneralAntillesSo clearly you don't care to see Linux succeed.02:42
GeneralAntillesBut such is the way of zealots.02:42
Luke-JrWhat I want is hardware specifications so Linux can properly support it.02:42
mrmcq2ubuying what?02:42
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: you should also imply he molests penguins.02:42
Luke-JrGeneralAntilles: I don't really care about Linux itself even. I care about not running proprietary software, and having something usable.02:42
* SpeedEvil sighs.02:42
Luke-Jra proprietary Linux OS doesn't fit that bill02:42
Luke-Jrmrmcq2u: a handheld/phone/PC02:43
* mrmcq2u confused02:43
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: please do your penguin molesting elsewhere02:43
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Luke-Jrmrmcq2u: I'm researching phones like Samsung OmniaPRO which ship with Windows Mobile, but (can) have proper Linux support02:43
GeneralAntillesRather than supporting manufacturer's who are trying to move Linux forward.02:44
Luke-Jras alternatives to a N900 which ships with Linux, but using it as a loophole for proprietary blobs in userspace02:44
Luke-JrGeneralAntilles: proprietary blobs don't move the free software community forward.02:44
Luke-Jrspecifications do02:44
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timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: erm02:45
timeless_mbpif a company assigns  50 people for 2 years to 30 oss projects02:45
mrmcq2uWell sometimes its just not possible to buy a linux based phone, no linux based phones in ireland for example.. and any linux phones out have a huge price so I wouldn't blame someone for getting a proprietary phone cheaply at a local vendor02:45
timeless_mbpand happens to in one area where it can't get what it needs otherwise use a blob02:45
GeneralAntillesRight, zealots.02:45
timeless_mbpis that one blob really so wrong?02:45
SpeedEvilmrmcq2u: not quite true.02:45
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: I'm aware of one Nokia developer who is actually helping mainstream OSS projects, and he is doing it in his spare time, not paid time.02:45
GeneralAntillestimeless_mbp, yes.02:45
timeless_mbpthe community still got the engineering from the other 50 people for those two years02:45
GeneralAntillesI'm also pretty sure Nokia supports pedophilia.02:45
timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: thanks for the insult02:46
timeless_mbpnow, either go away, or i will02:46
SpeedEvilmrmcq2u: Freerunner for exampel.02:46
GeneralAntillesLuke-Jr, you're quickly using up your warnings here.02:46
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: are you a Nokia developer?02:46
GeneralAntillesI'm going to call that #2 since I'm a nice guy and neglected to issue on earlier.02:46
Luke-Jrhow exactly did I insult you?02:46
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: I'm going to call that #2 since I'm a nice guy and neglected to issue one earlier.02:46
timeless_mbpfigure it out.02:46
timeless_mbpi keep a profile on maemo.org02:46
mrmcq2uthe n900 seems to be the first linux based phone I wouldnt mind spending some cash on because it actually has good specs as apposed to the android devices which have been released and you arent force fed dalvik02:46
GeneralAntillesCut the trolling and general jackassery or find another channel to hang out in.02:47
timeless_mbpmrmcq2u: fwiw, i'd rather people avoid insulting other platforms too02:47
timeless_mbpit's really not much more appropriate than insulting developers02:47
timeless_mbpagain, if you want to insult things, use talk.m.o02:48
SpeedEvilmrmcq2u: freerunner is completely open - but has somewhat old specs :/02:48
GeneralAntillesand godawful battery life.02:48
mrmcq2uIm not insulting it, I am just saying that I see maemo as a full linux distro whereas dalvik forced people to use one language for a long time and write everything from scratch02:48
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Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: you're also assuming you're not the one developer I mentioned. ('s profile says nothing about who you are or what you've done, btw)02:48
GeneralAntillesIt's interesting that neither Palm nor Google really wished to leverage Linux for their own platform.02:49
GeneralAntillesLuke-Jr, I can name at least a dozen off the top of my head.02:49
sharpneliI just cant help myself. I always read dalvik as dalek :E02:49
GeneralAntillesSo STFU.02:49
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mrmcq2udalvik - android02:49
timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: it gives you the basics02:49
GeneralAntillesThey both seem more interested in locking people into their ecosystem.02:49
timeless_mbpthe rest, google would explain foryou02:49
Luke-Jr <-- useless, oh well02:50
javispedroGeneralAntilles, I can sympathize with them. Trying to push GTK as a capable mainstream development platform requires faith. Rehashing someone else's API does not.02:50
timeless_mbpreally, practice using google.02:51
GeneralAntillesSadly I still like the idea of that Who's Who.02:51
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wazd :P02:53
timeless_mbpwazd: # != ?02:53
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wazdtimeless_mbp: what? :)02:54
timeless_mbptry clicking your link02:54
timeless_mbpit doesn't do anything for me02:54
javispedroit is one of those new javascript-happy links02:54
wazdstoopid google links :(02:55
javispedrobehold, how they're breaking the web.02:55
wazdThe funniest thing is02:55
wazdThat Andrew Zhilin who made Emacs icon is not me :D02:55
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javispedrowazd, since clicking on your link google has started being javascript happy here too02:56
* SpeedEvil has once had an invitation to go on a polar expedition because of a nameclash.02:56
javispedrotime to clear cookies...02:56
SpeedEvil(canadian polar bear scientist who is not me)02:56
timeless_mbpseems to work as a link02:56
javispedrogoogle doing some testing on a live server I think.02:56
wazdSpeedEvil: no, seriously, another guy that makes icons for OS Software with same name :)02:57
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SpeedEvilwazd: yes - I wasn't doubting - I was just commenting on my nameclash)02:57
SpeedEviltimeless_mbp: for me that's a completely blank page. Fun.02:58
wazdtimeless_mbp: for me too02:58
* timeless_mbp gives up02:58
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SpeedEvil - the nuclear option :)03:00
* timeless_mbp grumbles03:02
timeless_mbpwtf are these people thinking?03:02
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pupnikamazing SpeedEvil - ty03:05
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Proteousanyone want to buy a slightly used n97?03:59
GeneralAntillesDidn't I tell you that was a bad plan? :P03:59
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* zerojayPC scrolls up to see what the latest Luke drama is.04:15
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zerojayPCOh... there actually is some. lol04:15
fengshaunhi, is it possible to test maemo 5 on a pc? (I don't have a cellphone)04:16
GeneralAntillesfengshaun, you can install the SDK04:16
GeneralAntillesBut it's not quite an emulator.04:16
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GeneralAntillesIt's a debugging environment more than anything.04:16
zerojayPCDon't expect to see all the whiz-bang effects.04:16
fengshaunGeneralAntilles: can I test some stuff in it?04:16
GeneralAntillesOr anything resembling feature-completeness.04:17
GeneralAntillesYour own applications and such? Sure.04:17
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fengshaunoh thanks!04:17
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zerojayPCHe has our permission. ;P04:20
zerojayPCHeh... I was weirded out when I saw a commercial with U2 in it and it turned out NOT to be an iPod ad.04:22
GeneralAntillesU2 is the suck.04:22
GeneralAntillesBono needs a slap of reality.04:22
zerojayPCI can't disagree.04:23
GeneralAntillesGood. :P04:23
Firebirdhm, are accelerometer refresh rate specs lying around anywhere on
GeneralAntillesCheck the wiki.04:24
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zerojayPCExpansys USA lists the N900 at $200. lol04:27
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GeneralAntilleszerojayPC, yeah, look at their terms and conditions, though.04:28
GeneralAntillesIt wont stay that way.04:28
Firebirdwow, acer has made a phone too04:28
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Firebirdorder now and they're be forced to honor the price?04:29
zerojayPCGeneralAntilles: Yeah, I'm sure it was just a mistake.04:30
GeneralAntillesFirebird, nah, they can arbitrarily change it at any time.04:30
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Firebirdah, its priceless in the cart04:31
SpeedEvilFirebird: you do know that you can't use accels for inertial guidance?04:32
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GeneralAntillesPriceless. Hehe.04:32
GeneralAntillesTo quote Inigo Montoya. . . .04:33
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FirebirdSpeedEvil, ?04:35
zerojayPCN900 keyboard's really not backlit?04:36
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SpeedEvilFirebird: many people asking that question in various groups I'm a member of seem to think that you can use the accels to improve GPS or position in buildings04:37
Firebirdinertia != acceleration04:38
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zerojayPCChatzilla. ;P04:43
GiantTalkingCowI've never been a huge fan of that addon. Always lagged on me, for some reason. Has that been fixed?04:44
angasuleFirebird: what? it doesn't include inertiometers? :P04:47
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SpeedEvil(inertial guidance is using accellerometers in combination with other sensors to work out position)04:52
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angasuleSpeedEvil: which doesn't reply a compass, unfortunately, but it's a cool thing to do anyway :D04:56
SpeedEvilyeah - but doesn't work with sucky accels like are currently available.04:57
angasule'reply a compass'? what am I smoking? :(04:57
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angasulehmm, nice, plenty of docs for ARM04:59
angasuleok, time for bed, good night05:00
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zerojayPCwtf... how is it that I've used 1.4GB of mobile data this month when I have barely done fuck all with my tablet...?05:10
GeneralAntillesIt's been communicating with the mothership.05:10
monkeyiqanyone recall a gst-launch command to grab a single jpg from the n810's webcam?05:11
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TobaI'm going to have Nokia's baby so long as the free-ness of the maemo platform is sticking around...05:25
GeneralAntillesGood news! The freeness is getting better all the time.05:26
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mn3m0n1cdoes the n900 have wifi and 3 g connectivity?05:29
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mn3m0n1ccool thanks.....when does it come out and how much is it gonna cost?05:31
GeneralAntillesOctober is the rumor, should be around 500 euros, give or take depend on your locale.05:31
mn3m0n1ccool thanks05:32
SpeedEvilpossibly lots less if carrier subsidised.05:32
SpeedEvilBut in that case some of the freedom may be compromised.05:33
GeneralAntillesI'm really interested in seeing how it looks on T-Mobile.05:33
SpeedEvilBut that's unclear as of yet.05:33
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, I doubt it, personally.05:33
GeneralAntillesI can't see Nokia or Maemo Devices allowing much of that.05:33
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: I think it's safer to wait and see.05:33
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, new to the community?05:33
SpeedEvilIf I'm wrong, I'll be very happy.05:34
* SpeedEvil has an openmoko phone - but new to maemo. 05:34
zerojayPCIf there was any sort of locking down, would go down in flames.05:34
zerojayPCAnd I'm not talking about people typing out angry rants.05:34
GeneralAntillesWell, SpeedEvil, based on what I know about the product, the platform and the community from the past 3 years, I'd say it's highly unlikely.05:34
GeneralAntillesBut, yes, safer to wait and see.05:35
SpeedEvilFair enough. The other alternative is that carriers won't let it on.05:35
SpeedEvil(I mean on as in provide subsidy)05:35
GeneralAntillesWe've only got a couple of rumors and some FCC docs to support T-Mobile USA carrying it.05:35
GeneralAntillesThings are changing very quickly, though.05:37
GeneralAntillesThe N900 signals a big shift in the industry, though.05:37
SpeedEvilHope they think a contract to carry on paying t-mobile is enough.05:37
SpeedEvilThe N900 being widely accepted by carriers05:37
ArSathere's only one provider in USA that supports that band, so no need to even lock it down05:37
SpeedEvilArSa: quadband05:38
ArSano, i mean data band05:38
SpeedEvilHadn't looked at that.05:38
ArSait will only do 3G on t-mobile, not on at&t05:38
GeneralAntillesHopefully that changes.05:38
GeneralAntillesI will be so pissed if there's no AT&T 3G.05:38
SpeedEvilAt some point the carriers will lose their stranglehold on what hardware is available.05:38
ArSai don't see that, i don't think there's a quad-band wcdma radio05:39
SpeedEvilWill it be October?05:39
ArSawhich is kinda complicated05:39
b-man16~seen xnt1405:39
GeneralAntillesChanging to T-Mobile is a non-starter05:39
infobotxnt14 is currently on #maemo (11h 18m 38s). Has said a total of 34 messages. Is idling for 5h 59m 34s, last said: '*bored'.05:39
benson_Hi. How can N810 connect to internet using bluetooth via a windows-xp?05:39
GeneralAntillesTwo iPhones on the plan I'm on.05:39
ArSaGeneralAntilles i agree05:39
GeneralAntillesPlus, T-Mobile doesn't provide 3G in my area.05:39
ArSacoverage sucks even more than at&t05:39
SpeedEvilt-mobile is actually quite reasonable in the UK.05:39
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, the US is not the UK, however.05:40
GeneralAntillesThere isn't much land to cover in the UK.05:40
SpeedEvilI'm currently getting GPRS data - when I use it - for a capped pound a day.05:40
SpeedEvilyes, I know. Market conditions and all.05:40
ArSano, it's distances05:40
SpeedEviland that.05:40
ArSathat's why cdma kinda works better here05:40
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SpeedEvilmore network build for the same coverage.05:41
ArSathere are some relatively populated areas (where i am right now) where there's no gsm and none planned.05:41
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ArSabut i'll move for n900 :P05:42
GeneralAntillesWho wants to bet no AT&T 3G bands was a T-Mobile requirement?05:42
b-man16is the t-mobile service for the N900 optional btw?05:42
ArSaGeneralAntilles it's not really that. most of the world uses the wcdma frequencies that are in n90005:43
GeneralAntillesb-man16, ever know Nokia not to sell unlocked?05:43
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SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: it's not completely implausible - however - there is limited flexibility available in the RF sections. You may not be able to get a module that will work for _all_ your markets05:43
ArSaGeneralAntilles but US is special as always, same as with 850/1700 band05:43
zerojayPCRetarded. :)05:44
GeneralAntillesShut up, Canada. :P05:45
ArSait sucks, but that's life. i think it started with cdma itself using these normal 900/1800 frequencies. and it went from there :-\05:45
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GeneralAntillesNo AT&T 3G may kill me, in fact.05:47
mn3m0n1cwill they let you use skype on a 3g network?05:47
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ShadowJKthat video is so awesome06:17
* ShadowJK watches it again06:17
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doc|workis mer as usable as OS2008?06:31
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GeneralAntillesdoc|home, not yet.06:33
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doc|workok, thanks06:33
doc|workany carrier lists yet?>06:34
doc|work(on the n900(06:34
* doc|work typing fail06:35
Proteoustmobile in the US according to the FCC filing06:38
doc|workanything about canada?06:40
* ShadowJK finds these carrier questions hilarious for some reason06:41
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* zerojayPC sighs.06:42
zerojayPCThey didn't talk about carrier stuff.06:42
zerojayPCThat hasn't changed since the last time you asked less than 24 hours ago.06:42
zerojayPCSo many people are asking questions that we can't answer yet. At least let us get closer to release first, lol06:43
doc|workerm, ok06:43
doc|workI haven't been here since this morning... hadn't seen anything ...06:43
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zerojayPCYou should know by now that us Canadians always get shit last anyways. lol06:44
ShadowJKI mean where I live, nobody gives a rat's ass about which carriers, which retailers, which etailers, which shady street corner vendors selling "fell off a truck"-ware has a certain device.. there'll always be many places and you just shop around and get where it's cheapest or most convenient :)06:44
doc|workShadowJK: here it's all about the telcos :/06:44
zerojayPCNot with Nokia hardware.06:45
doc|workShadowJK: sadly, bad telco choice and you end up paying much more than you have to06:45
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zerojayPCUnless you're stuck on some shitty telco.06:45
doc|workgiven it's gsm I'm guessing it'll be rogers/fido but wondering about costs :/06:45
zerojayPCWell, we know the European price.06:46
zerojayPCSo anywhere between $500 and $800, I guess.06:46
ShadowJKdoc|work, I think the part that makes me find it funny is that you guys seem not only fine with this slavery, you're demanding nokia to have sorted out the details of a continuation of the telco oppression in advance of the offical release of the device even! :)06:46
doc|workShadowJK: fine with it? I'd like nothing more than the entire thing to be deregulated so there could be some real competition :/06:47
ShadowJKI think you mean you want it to be regulated ;)06:47
doc|workShadowJK: is it that weird to think they might have talked to some? have some agreements in place?06:47
ShadowJKah I dunno06:48
GeneralAntillesRegulation is what allows the monopolies to stay in place.06:48
doc|workShadowJK: haha, no, regulation is exactly the problem. The head regulator is a former exec who worked for two of telcos06:48
doc|workGeneralAntilles: indeed06:48
ShadowJKYou know what pushed service prices down the most here? Number portability06:50
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ShadowJKWanna switch provider? Sign up with a new one and tell them you want to keep your old number. You get a new sim card, and you get a SMS when it's time to switch the card. A reboot of the phone later and you're on a new provider with the same old number you had before06:51
zerojayPCMust be nice doing that without a contract.06:52
ShadowJKBut when providers are allowed to lock you in for years at a time, it puts a big damper on competition06:52
doc|worksame in most places06:52
doc|workShadowJK: most places that's more to do with contracts that you agree to. I've gotten pay as you go (credit) phones here because the plans suck so much.06:52
doc|workand because of them sucking so much, I don't give them my money unless absolutely necessary06:53
ShadowJKThis is an area, I think, where regulation could be beneficial, to break up conditions where competition isn't working properly :)06:54
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, deregulate, then address monopoly situations as they arise.06:54
doc|workShadowJK: they've been regulated for years. Want to find the best telco systems? Go to africa. Unregulated there and far ahead of what we have here.06:54
GeneralAntillesThat's how the government works if it's actually doing its job.06:54
doc|workwith deregulation there's no such thing as a monopoly without the companies actually serving their customers06:55
doc|workotherwise someone else will serve their customers for them :)06:55
GeneralAntillesIdeally, but certainly not guaranteed.06:56
GeneralAntillesWhich is why the government exists.06:56
doc|worktrue monopolies (companies with massive market shares who don't serve their customers) without governments06:56
doc|workmost telco problems we have now exist because they had monopolies06:57
doc|work(government granted)06:57
doc|worker, s/without governments/can't exist without governments06:57
GeneralAntillesAnybody create a wiki article for the N900 yet?06:59
GeneralAntillesThat they have.07:00
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johnxmornin' :)07:05
GAN800Hey, johnx.07:06
GAN800See the new site? ;)07:06
johnxam gonna go for a walk with the missus, then dive into the announcements07:07
johnxinteresting times :)07:07
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BBNSN900 yeah!07:07
johnxalso, the device cheaper than I thought it was going to be :)07:07
johnxprobably still out of my reach, though07:07
GAN800Discount codes!07:08
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GAN800Cross your fingers.07:08
* johnx shrugs07:08
GAN800I've heard 'probably to expensive' from most of the core community people.07:08
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johnxtime will tell07:08
johnxI'm mostly excited about harmattan07:08
GAN800I'd really hope Nokia realizes what a resource they'd be leaving behind if they didn't provide discounts.07:09
GAN800johnx, gotta see the UI vids.07:09
GAN800They ooze slick.07:09
zerojayPCRight now.07:09
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johnxI'll check it out in a bit07:10
johnxbut marketing vids will make anything look slick07:10
zerojayPCnot like this.07:10
GAN800No, Quim and Jussi demo vids.07:10
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johnxback in 30min07:11
doc|workstill much cheaper than an iphone, isn't it?07:11
doc|workwhat's harmattan?07:11
GAN800Maemo 607:11
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GAN800See the roadmap on wiki.maemo.org07:12
doc|workyeah, reading it now. I'm not seeing that much to get very excited about. Am I missing something?07:13
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GAN800Well, it's the Maemo release that's targetted for the masses.07:14
chxanyone knows what GPS chip is used in the N900?07:14
chxthe same ... problematic one ... we had until now?07:14
GAN800I suspect johnx's excitement stems from the platform improvements, though.07:14
GAN800chx, highly unlikely.07:15
GAN800Even if it is, though, it's actually got a cellular radio for the A in AGPS.07:16
Luke-Jrchx: the N810's GPS chip is not problematic, it is Nokia's driver blob that is broken07:16
doc|workhmmm, ok, I'm thinking maemo on the n900 will do a lot07:16
Luke-JrNokia refuses to fix it because the N900 has a different chip07:16
doc|work(to interest the masses)07:17
Luke-Jror at least that's how I understood their refusal to fix it07:17
doc|workit's very slick07:17
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Luke-Jr(there is also supposedly a poor antenna on the N810 GPS, but that has never actually been a source of problems for me)07:17
GAN800The multitasking seems to pretty much destroy everything else on the market.07:17
doc|workis maemo 5 gtk or qt? I thought os2008 was gtk.07:18
zerojayPCIt is.07:18
GAN800With community supported Qt.07:19
GAN800Harmattan is Qt with community supported GTK.07:19
doc|workI see07:19
doc|workthanks for the answers07:19
Luke-Jrare there any Nokia employees chatting here at the moment?07:19
chxSo.... 500EUR oct?07:20
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Luke-Jrguess not... what do you guys think of instead buying Samsung OmniaPro and porting Linux to it? ;)07:20
kirmaI must say I'm not extremely pleased by the fact it doesn't have Qt, unless the community-supported version provides trivial compability path for applications to future releases, and actually works quite well already...07:20
Luke-Jrkirma: even future Qt-based versions should have GTK available07:21
Luke-Jr(and, if you're not a developer or lack the time, would you buy a Samsung phone instead of N900 if we can get a working port of Linux to it?)07:22
kirmayes, but that's still going to lose official support quite "soon", and Qt is going to be the platform for Nokia devices...07:22
GAN800kirma, Qt is right in Extras.07:22
GAN800You can install it right now on a Diablo device even.07:22
Luke-Jrkirma: well, GTK has always been dead to me07:22
GAN800Luke-Jr, I don't support manufacturers who put Windows on their devices.07:23
kirmaI'm mostly wondering how well the features of Qt for mobile apps (I imagine intelligent connection management, location and sensor data, integration to phone-type apps) is supported now and what it will be at harmattan/mainstream Qt-on-S60 releases07:23
Luke-JrGAN800: even if we can install Linux? where do you get your laptops? ;p07:23
kirmaI fear "for this release, it has to be done way A, and later releases way B"07:24
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Luke-Jrkirma: AFAIK those features don't exist in Qt proper right now at all07:24
Luke-Jrkirma: I doubt Nokia will stop using gpsd for future location things tho07:25
Luke-Jrunless they already have for n90007:25
kirmawell, portability to Qt on S60 is one thing I'm pondering07:25
Luke-Jractually, Qt Extended already has a Location API07:26
Luke-JrQt is historically quite good at keeping compatibility within major releases07:26
GAN800I don't buy laptops.07:26
GAN800The netbook I have came from Dell with Ubuntu.07:26
zerojayPCI said it before... and now, I'll definitely say it again.07:27
zerojayPCI've bought my last desktop/laptop.07:27
kirma"quite good" starts to sound like "S60 is quite good" in this perspective ;>07:27
Luke-JrGAN800: so the as-shipped state is more important to you than the capable-of state?07:27
GAN800Luke-Jr, I'll remind you that by purchasing that phone you're giving money to Microsoft.07:27
Luke-JrGAN800: it's not about the money07:28
zerojayPCAfter the N900... I don't see any way that I could go back to a tower ever again.07:28
GAN800By purchasing an N900 you're encouraging Nokia to continue paying several dozen fulltime open source developers.07:28
Luke-Jrfor me, it's about having something I can use07:28
GAN800Of course, it's self-conflicting zealot attitudes like yours that prevent open source from gaining real ground.07:29
Luke-Jrby supporting a platform with open specs, I am encouraging people to release specs ;)07:29
GAN800zerojayPC, I use a tower and a tablet. Perfect combo.07:29
GAN800Luke-Jr, how do you expect your precious open source software to grow if not for money.07:30
GAN800The biggest contributors to open source are all large commercial companies.07:30
zerojayPCGAN800: I hardly ever use my tower anymore except to passively share media.07:30
Luke-JrGAN800: the more people that buy open-spec hardware, the more hardware will be released with open specs to sell it07:30
GAN800You're a fool who's skewed perspective of reality is profoundly flawed.07:31
ShadowJKOmniaPro has open gps specs?07:31
zerojayPCHe doesn't mince his words, does he? lol07:31
GAN800zerojayPC, I need to do lots of things which need real horsepower.07:31
ShadowJKI'd thought something like htc dream would be closer to open07:31
* GAN800 stops feeding the troll.07:32
zerojayPCGAN800: I can't think of anything I need a hardcore PC to do anymore.07:32
ShadowJK... reading email07:32
Luke-JrShadowJK: the SoC is open, at least; I figure 3D accel is the biggest hurdle07:32
zerojayPCShadowJK: Nope.07:32
Luke-JrShadowJK: N8x0 GPS certainly isn't open, so there's only room for an improvement07:32
ShadowJKclaws chokes at around 25000 per folder for me, so I need a desktop machine occasionally :)07:32
zerojayPCI don't use claws.07:33
ShadowJKuntil N900 with more RAM comes out anyway... provided it's not wasted on slickness and other crap.07:33
GAN800zerojayPC, processing RAW photos, film/video, 2D/3D imaging and processing, media playback and anything that requires working with large amounts of text.07:33
zerojayPCJust nice Modest with Gmail via IMAP.07:33
ShadowJK(modest wouldn't even touch my imap server and didn't tell me why)07:33
zerojayPCGAN800: I don't do any of that.07:34
chxwhat's this "tower" you are talking of?07:34
Luke-JrGAN800: the real numbers don't support that: individuals contribute more than companies07:34
zerojayPCWell... I do media playback, but I just share my 3TB worth of media to my Xbox, PS3 and tablet and I'm good.07:34
GAN800chx, dual 2.5GHz G5 in my case.07:34
chxi am ditching it these weeks , as soon as my Lenovo T400s lands :)07:35
GAN800zerojayPC, my G5 is my home theater.07:35
zerojayPCYeah, I pretty much use mine the same way, except I just share it to every TV and computer in my house.07:35
GAN800I also game sometimes.07:36
GAN800Although not so much anymore since Apple fucked PPC owners.07:36
zerojayPCI don't really play PC games much. I've got consoles for that.07:36
GAN800Yeah, that's mostly the case for me these days, but a lot of things just don't compare.07:37
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GAN800You can't spend all night hanging around on a Tremulous server on a console.07:38
zerojayPCYou can when you run Linux on your PS3. :)07:38
zerojayPCThat's a game I never understood.07:38
zerojayPCI started it up... kind of went... "wtf..."07:38
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GAN800It's amazing once you pick up the mechanics.07:39
GAN800But aliens tends to throw people off.07:39
Luke-JrzerojayPC: even w/o 3D accel?07:39
GAN800It's unlike almost any other FPS out there.07:40
zerojayPCLuke-Jr: I don't remember it really requiring it.07:40
Macerreally want an n90007:40
GAN800 is kicking my ass.07:40
Macerwhen are they supposed to go on sale?07:40
GAN800October supposedly.07:41
ShadowJKin select markets07:41
Macer"select markets"07:41
Macerwhat exactly does that mean :)07:41
Macereurope? heh07:41
zerojayPCEurope, North America, Middle East, apparently.07:41
chxthat'd be great07:42
* GAN800 will die if there are no AT&T 3G frequencies.07:42
Pavlovi htink its going to be nice07:42
doc|homecan I have one now? Can I? Can I? Pleasepleaseplease?07:42
zerojayPChmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... no.07:43
chxGAN800: look at the WCMDA (HSDPA) frequencies07:43
chxGAN800: 1700.07:43
chxoh wait07:44
chxthat's for Tmobile.07:44
Corsacwell, if people could use standard frequencies…07:44
zerojayPCPhone providers can go fuck themselves.07:44
zerojayPCI spent 3 years trying to cater to those bastards.07:44
Pavlovthe 3g thing has been annoying me a lot lately07:44
Pavlovi've got like 4 at&t sim cards, and i keep getting random european windows mobile devices that don't do more than edge07:45
chx181gramm ...07:45
zerojayPCA nice round "fuck you" to Verizon for taking a year to check the text for one of our games and then sending back a simple "no".07:45
zerojayPCAnd another "Fuck you" to KDDI in Japan who told us that showing a graphic of a pair of lips (to signify a kiss) overlaid on the screen was "too hot" when they operate in the land of tentacle porn.07:46
doc|homebitter much? :)07:47
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zerojayPCOh, also another big fuck you goes out to whomever we dealt with in China.07:47
Corsacahaha tentacle pr0n :)07:47
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zerojayPCYour bastard testers decided to send us fucking MS paint "drawings" when we asked for fucking screenshots.07:48
zerojayPCI printed some out and put them on our office fridge.07:48
zerojayPCSomeone asked me if it was my kid's drawings. I had to tell him "no, this was a 30 year old man trying to tell me that a certain character wasn't in the right spot".07:48
zerojayPC"But it looks like speghetti." "I KNOW."07:49
zerojayPCAlways nice to get back bug reports saying "it look bad" also.07:49
zerojayPCOh, and Czech was fun.07:50
zerojayPCAfter telling the translator exactly which encoding to use to translate the game, he ignored it and then when we tried to tell him it was wrong, we got back an e-mail from his girlfriend saying a horse dragged him out of his bed and he died.07:50
zerojayPCDo not even ask me how a fucking horse is anywhere near this dude's bed.07:51
Stskeepswell at least he got what was coming for him07:51
zerojayPCThe Romanian testers were plenty of fun.07:51
zerojayPCThey got paid pennies... so they would simply steal and sell the test devices they had.07:51
zerojayPCNeed to test your game out on a 6230? Oh shit, Romanu sold it on the street corner last night, sorry.07:52
* GeneralAntilles bangs head on desk at point #3
zerojayPCSo... compared to that shit... dealing with Finnglish is a walk in the park.07:53
zerojayPCGeneralAntilles: You too, huh?07:53
GeneralAntillesand #907:53
zerojayPCThat's what happens when  you ignore the tablets for two years and suddenly restart your blog the day of the announcement.07:54
Pavlovwhat is it with europeans and the need to have week numbers all over your calendar07:54
StskeepsPavlov: in nokia it probably makes a lot of sense :P07:55
Pavlovoh, no doubt :)07:55
zerojayPCGeneralAntilles: Funny when he has the balls to call himself the Maemo/Tablet Guru. ;)07:55
Stskeepsmy god, there's a gripe thread already07:55
Stskeepsi should get coffee before getting depressed over this thread07:56
Pavlovshould be entertaining07:56
Stskeeps is a bundle of fun07:57
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zerojayPC@rabbitrun84 ='s N900 report is totally wrong! It said that u can't phone call with N900... Their editors obviously can't read English at all :(07:57
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johnxwhy are people so freaking negative?07:57
ShadowJKweek numbers are used alot in .fi atleast07:57
Pavlovi know07:58
GeneralAntillesjohnx, Nokia's beaten all the positiveness out of us.07:58
Pavlovbut they make no sense in the US07:58
zerojayPCjohnx: They're manifesting their real issue: "I want it and can't have it."07:58
PavlovStskeeps: this thread is pretty funny07:58
zerojayPCSome other site saying that the tablet is 800x600. Heh.07:59
johnxs/can't have it/have to pay money for it/ ?07:59
Pavlovi do wish they'd put a snapdragon in it07:59
doc|homeis the proc artificially limited?07:59
GeneralAntillesI can't say I care for him using the logo.07:59
Pavlovnot really07:59
GeneralAntillesPavlov, isn't TI more open?07:59
Pavlovomap35xx's aren't really meant to run a lot faster07:59
PavlovGeneralAntilles: a bit07:59
Luke-Jrwhat's a snapdragon? O.op08:00
PavlovGeneralAntilles: but the extra clockspeed seems to make a pretty big difference from what i've seen08:00
johnxLuke-Jr, tell you when you're older :>08:00
Pavlovbut i've only got a couple snapdragon devices08:00
GeneralAntillesHe's got a captcha with no image.08:00
GeneralAntilles"Guess what to put in the blank, required field to contact us!"08:00
Luke-JrPavlov: why not Samsung for that matter?08:01
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: begins with a, ends with hole08:01
GeneralAntillesPavlov, honestly, I have a lot of brand loyalty for TI.08:01
GeneralAntillesThey've really made some major strides in open source over the past few years.08:01
PavlovGeneralAntilles: yep08:01
zerojayPCGeneralAntilles: I don't see a field for a captcha.08:01
GeneralAntillesand I'd like to encourage more of that behavior.08:01
Pavlovi like a lot of the stuff TI has done08:01
Pavlovi just dont think they have the best chips right now08:01
GeneralAntilleszerojayPC, see the blank field with the asterisk next to it above the Send button?08:01
zerojayPCAh, yeah... see it.08:01
Pavlovi haven't heard anything really about their cortex a9 plans, but am hopeful08:02
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GeneralAntillesAnybody have his email address? . . . .08:02
zerojayPCI talk to him direct through Twitter.08:02
GeneralAntillesPavlov, OMAP4 looks purty so far.08:03
zerojayPC@rcadden is his personal account. @maemoguru for... his... Maemo.... Guruness.lol08:03
Pavlovhave they announced anything?08:03
Pavlovi guess the arm event was a week or two ago08:03
Pavlovi dont really like the powervr sgx stuff08:04
Pavlovtegra's have got everyone beat so hard on GPU08:04
benson_good morning08:04
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kirmadoes anybody have an idea if harmattan is going to be provided as upgrade for N900? like "2010 OS edition" or something...08:05
GeneralAntillesPavlov, they have stuff on their website.08:05
PavlovGeneralAntilles: yeah, just saw08:05
kirmaor rather, does somebody have a strong hunch that it's *not* going to happen?08:05
GeneralAntilleskirma, that'd be "Maemo 6"08:06
GeneralAntillesand I imagine it'll ship just like OS2008 did for the N800.08:06
kirmasomehow I feel that although I'm very pleased Maemo is being taken to the big market, the developer side, and maybe even the customer experience will be a bit too much in flux in the beginning08:07
johnxchange is scary08:09
johnxthat's why so many people choose to stop aging at 10 or so :D08:09
GeneralAntillesjohnx, watch the Jussi and Quim video yet?08:10
johnxam poking at
GeneralAntillesjohnx, YouTube.08:11
GeneralAntillesCheck it out.08:11
kirmawell, I just hoped to see Qt ready to be shipped now, and developers not needing to hop from one platform to another or try a bit wobbly platform at this point08:11
johnxone thing at a time08:11
johnxI'm bathing in some honest to god marketing dollars for once08:12
johnxkirma, there will be qt for fremantle08:12
johnxit's already here for diablo08:12
johnxit'll be in a bit of flux, but I don't think there's any deal breakers in terms of developing for qt now. correct me if I'm wrong of course :)08:12
kirmathe thing is how to convince companies to develop the applications... they have two options, out of which one is good now, but sour in future, other on trial level regarding support, although it is going to be good in future08:13
GAN800Yeah, and I suspect GTK will be fine through Harmattan.08:14
* timeless_mbp sighs08:14
kirmamostly that Qt should integrate those more mobile-phone functions on it eventually, and now one needs to do manual tinkering.08:14
kirmaif I understood right...08:15
* GAN800 hands timeless_mbp a bar of chocolate.08:15
* Stskeeps stumbles to the coffee machine08:15
timeless_mbpchocolate is like coffee, but better08:15
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* GAN800 dreams of bacon, eggs, and grits for breakfast.08:16
doc|workmmmchocolate08:16 has a stepladder. . . .08:16
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Stskeepsn900 for 100 usd? ;)08:17
Stskeepsthat kind of ladder08:17
johnxwhat kind of ladder were you thinking about?08:18
Stskeepsnew product arriving or something :P08:18
timeless_mbpLuke-Jr: most of us aren't particularly early birds08:20
timeless_mbpbut that doesn't mean we don't read the scrollback or the logs08:21
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Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: I just wanted to avoid risking accidentally insulting anyone again. :/08:27
timeless_mbpPavlov: believe me, i complained about the idiotic week numbers08:28
timeless_mbpsadly they insisted that they didn't have resources to make two layouts08:29
timeless_mbpand that it'd "be ok"08:29
timeless_mbpi don't have the capital to tell them to go F**** themselves08:29
timeless_mbpthey also demanded prioritized lists of bugs from me08:29
timeless_mbplike 6-9 months ago08:29
timeless_mbpwhen the product didn't work at all08:30
timeless_mbpbut it was still too late to change anything08:30
* timeless_mbp thinks we need to practice defenestration. a lot08:30
timeless_mbpunfortunately, the fremantle ui team is on 3, nowhere near as satisfying as applying that to the harmattan ui team, which is on 708:31
timeless_mbpanyway. i'm almost don't translating Fremantle into English08:31
ShadowJKseriously, how hard would it be to leave an empty space where the week numbers go08:31
* timeless_mbp shrugs08:31
timeless_mbpi think the layout designers would complain about balance or whitespace or something08:32
johnxif arguing over how much we hate week numbers is the worst problem we have them I'm pretty happy08:32
timeless_mbpspeaking of trapped whitespace, don't get me started about leading spaces and zeros in times and dates08:32
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johnxbut speaking for myself: week numbers on my calendar is a total deal breaker. I'll just get something from HTC running WinMo08:32
* timeless_mbp needs to figure out if the localization can fix those two08:33
timeless_mbpjohnx: google calendar08:33
timeless_mbpand really, that's pretty much the solution for most of the apps08:33
timeless_mbpuse the browser08:33
* johnx was kidding of course08:33
ShadowJKThose marketing videos are impressive btw08:33
timeless_mbpit can handle google docs, and mail, and reader, and ...08:33
johnxalready the answer on my n800 for the most part08:33
timeless_mbpShadowJK: fail or actually impressive?08:33
roope_Yes, for Nokia videos at least.08:33
johnxreader is a world of awesome when tethered08:34
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, I was actually impressed08:34
timeless_mbpShadowJK: /msg me a list of video links i should watch08:34
timeless_mbpi was depressed mostly :)08:34
timeless_mbpthe one w/ jussi + quim demoing the n900 was almost ok08:34
Pavlovthat one was funny08:35
timeless_mbpexcept that quim kinda stood there for the first 3/4 acting like he didn't care08:35
timeless_mbpnot exactly the way i'd want to do a marketing video08:35
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ShadowJKI guess I should clarify. I was impressed in the sense that, well, it's nokia and the infamous nokia marketing, so you kinda expect it to be either utterly dull or utterly abstract/artsy and dull, but these made me excited and I watched it again.. and again. Nice music choice too08:37
roope_Jussi was much responsible for those videos, at the end of the day. Props to him.08:37
Stskeepsroope_: congratulations on release :) UI looks sweet08:38
roope_Thanks. It's been a fair amount of work.08:38
ShadowJKwho pirated the movie btw? :)08:39
oilinkiany idea of the speed of the device? in the marketing videos everything seems to work well. Would it be the same in actual usage?08:40
timeless_mbpoilinki: eh?08:40
timeless_mbpprovide a testcase / expected results08:40
Stskeepsoilinki: there's live videos of device AFAIK08:40
Stskeepsthe quim and jussi one08:40
timeless_mbproope_ or someone else could do whatever08:40
ShadowJKoilinki, actual device:
oilinkithanks, I'll watch that08:41
Stskeepshm, TMO seems to have died08:42
roope_Of course it takes time to do marketing videos, so it's a careful balance to do a video that tries to illustrate the performance that we hope/plan/expect to have in the final device. While skipping some of the issues like it takes actualyl time to load applications, web sites etc.08:42
tigerthuomenta roope08:43
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tigertfucking public transport08:43
tigertbus 8X my ass08:43
tigert<- diverted to kamppi :S08:43
ShadowJK <- I'm completely sold on this video :) Not that I'd ever use the device in the manner that it's being used here though.. heh08:44
Stskeepsthere's a bit scifi over that one08:44
timeless_mbptigert: heh08:44
roope  ok, compared to for instance this video. :)08:45
kirma8X? eh?08:45
kirmais that a literal bus line name08:45
tigertkirma: as a smiley it describes the service well :)08:45
kirmaah :)08:46
Stskeepsroope: someone likes to feel up trees08:46
timeless_mbpkirma: it's an alternate for a tram line08:46
timeless_mbpbecause they ripped out the tram tracks between where i live and work08:46
tigertyea, tram has trackwork near work so they supposedly run the rest of the route with bus08:46
tigert..which never came08:46
tigerttimeless_mbp: you live totally too close to work ;)08:47
ShadowJKroope: Yeah that one is brilliant. First it shows a hand experiencing the varied texture of water and grass and stuff. Then somehow you're supposed to be convinced that fondling a textureless flat surface is an enjoyable way to interact with a device :-)08:49
kirmawhat is that blue led blinking in the corner of N900 on demo video?08:49
timeless_mbptigert: it's still a pain for me to walk to work08:49
tigertkirma: a blue led08:49
kirmawhy it's blinking? :)08:49
suihkulokkiit is the flux capacitor08:49
tigertkirma: he has a new msg08:49
tigertlike on n81008:50
kirmamaybe I should have audio, but don't care to find headphones for work machine08:50
tigerttimeless_mbp: use bike :)08:50
timeless_mbpoh sure, like that'll help08:50
timeless_mbpi have to cross the broken road/tram tracks08:50
timeless_mbpbesides, i left my bike parked in front of nokia for >2years and it was finally taken away :(08:51
tigertthat souds like a fair thing to expect to happen ;)08:51
timeless_mbphere's the quim video?08:51
timeless_mbptigert: i was shocked at how long it survived08:52
timeless_mbpif i had left it in the basement, it wouldn't have lasted a year :)08:52
ShadowJKjussi and quim:
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ShadowJKcan someone prod someone to prod youtube to have "Maemo 5 user interface" video in HD too? :P08:55
timeless_mbpShadowJK: thanks08:56
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tigertit was weird to watch the n900 video on the n900 ;)09:00
timeless_mbpit was depressing to load the web page on a n90009:00
timeless_mbpit reminded us of the old days when we loaded ovi.com09:01
ShadowJKI believe it was depressing to load the page on anything yesterday09:01
timeless_mbpi guess that when Ovi finally let go of the Flash devs from their home page, they were available to us :(09:01
ShadowJKoh is that why everyhting was 404? :P09:01
timeless_mbpi didn't hit 404s09:01
roopeHmph. I think loads very well on the n900.09:01
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timeless_mbproope: the title areas ended up white text on white rectangular backgrounds09:02
timeless_mbpnot sure about today09:02
tigerttimeless_mbp: works perfectly here09:02
ShadowJKThe videos did yesterday.. not the flash player, but the videos they were trying to play.. of course, the flash player on didn't say it, it just sat there doing nothing :)09:02
Macerhow does the n810 use its usb port?09:03
Macerlike can i attach devices to it?09:03
StskeepsMacer: it enslaves turtles09:03
johnxMacer, yes09:03
Macerif i have an adapters?09:03
Macerso like09:03
tigertoh yeah09:03
Macercan i attach a cricket modem? :)09:03
johnxbut they'll only work if they take <100mA09:03
vasily_pupkinyou can attach everything you want09:03
tigertso time to kick marketing ass, the flash video doesnt play indeed09:03
Macerand use it as an hspda modem?09:03
ShadowJKMacer, there's usbcontrol (and others) that let you switch it to host mode where you can attach devices if you have adapter09:04
vasily_pupkinbut it doesn't mean, that it would work )09:04
* timeless_mbp cries09:04
MacerShadowJK: i was just curious if i could just attach an hspda modem to it09:04
tigertthough a page advertising n900, n900 users are not exactly the target :)09:04
Macerand dial up09:04
* vasily_pupkin have usb hub on battaries ^_^09:04
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ShadowJKMacer, Diablo isn't setup to do it, but it's doable with powered USB hub as HSDPA modems are insanely power hungry and N810 wouldn't be able to feed enough juice09:05
suihkulokkidyi or does someone sell battery powered usb hubs?09:05
ShadowJKi've seen one on amazon.com09:05
Macerhm. i don't have an adapter for it09:05
Maceri'd like to try it out with someone's cricket modem09:05
Stskeepslesbie adapter09:05
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Maceri have one here that i'm fixing for someone09:06
Macerwell.. fixing their laptop really09:06
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Macerthe rumors were true09:06
Macersome animal porn DOES contain trojans09:06
ShadowJKoriginal cable and a cheapo dumb F-F adapter works (with usbcontrol)09:06
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Macerheh... that would be interesting to try09:07
ShadowJKThen you'd be in for some kernel fun and setting up some scripts to make it actually use it...09:07
tigertbah, they should just have uset the youtube embedding for video09:07
ShadowJKUSB Flash drives work out of the box though :)09:07
tigertinstead of some other flashplayer09:07
ShadowJKtigert, NIH? :)09:07
Macerwell... i just figured it might be a good alternative to an hspda modem09:07 videos doesn't work with linux / firefox 3.5 combination either.09:07
Stskeepsworked fine for me earlier09:08
Macerif it does work maybe someone can market one that wraps around the n810 and acts as a modem/protection? :)09:08
Macerlike a cricket n810 case?09:08
GAN800tigert, I find it rather pathetix that is 1024px minimum.09:08
Macer(made in china)09:08
Stskeepsok, it doesn't anymore09:08
infobotGAN800 meant: tigert, I find it rather pathetic that is 1024px minimum.09:08
Macerhm. nm-applet in fluxbox reboots mer  when trying to adhoc tether09:10
Macerit was weird09:10
tigertGAN800: yeah - though I guess most people are viewing it on a laptop or desktop computer anyway09:10
tigertGAN800: web designers just have way too large monitors nowadays09:11
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GAN800tigert, that's going to change when it's no longer the marketing site but the user site.09:11
ShadowJKAlot of the comments on (the various copies of) the videos seem positive... "go and hide iPhone", "This phone is Nokia's resurrection", "One of the best adds I've ever seen!"09:11
GAN800How embarassing will it be to have horizontal scrollbars on a website launched off the device desktop out-of-the-box?09:11
tigertGAN800: works fine on the tablets09:11
ShadowJKit's extraordinary that the comments are ontopic09:11
oilinkitigert: some of the web designer team members should be forced to use linux / mac for work.09:11
tigertoilinki: most designers *use* macs already09:12
timeless_mbptigert: hey09:12
GAN800tigert, yeah, because that's a usecase we targetted.09:12
timeless_mbpi remember when we were about to launch the microb garage site09:12
timeless_mbpwe had designed it for gecko09:12
timeless_mbpand forgot to test opera09:12
timeless_mbpwhich was the browser you'd need to use to get microb09:12
GAN800Unfortunately it seems m.n.c wasn't designed by users.09:12
timeless_mbpwe kinda fixed that before we launched09:12
GAN800Unlike maemo.org09:12
tigertoilinki: the 30 inch cinema displays on macs do not help in that though09:13
oilinkitigert: just need to stop paying so much money for designers.. so they have to use linux and small monitors ;)09:13
* timeless_mbp likes that idea09:13
GAN800I really hope we can get m.n.c fixed before October.09:14
tigertGAN800: facebook doesnt fit on 800px either09:14
GAN800oilinki, then you get tables.09:14
tigertquite a few sites are wider nowadays09:14
GAN800tigert, yeah, but we don't have control over that.09:14
tigertGAN800: but I have no problem viewing the or facebook on the tablet really09:14
GAN800We can at least fix the things we can fix.09:14
timeless_mbptigert: the n900's ability to zoom made the m.n.c. site not bad09:15
timeless_mbpbut iirc it wasn't enjoyable on an n81009:15
GAN800Doesn't justify it.09:15
timeless_mbpthe layout in that regard was nice09:15
timeless_mbpyou can zoom to a column and read down09:16
timeless_mbpof course, you kept running into nearly identical cells09:16
timeless_mbpand got frustrated by repeated grammatical errors09:16
timeless_mbpwe had a morning reading yesterday for our group09:16
timeless_mbpstops required about every 1-2 sentences09:16
tigertGAN800: why are we always talking about this? :)09:17
Macerwatching conspiracy09:18
GAN800Are we?09:18
Maceramazing how nuts ze germans were09:18
GAN800tigert, I'll refrain from directing those complaints your direction in the future, then.09:19
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tigertGAN800: the points are valid yeah09:19
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* GAN800 will bug Jussi and Quim instead.09:19
tigertbut I care more that works fine with tablets09:19
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roopeWell, isn't ... if you already got the device, then.09:20
tigertand quim & jussi are the right ones to bug about this09:20
* ShadowJK vaguely recalls finding it funny his nokia phone not being able to read an article on about making websites accessible to mobile phones09:20
johnxdo as we say, not as we do :)09:21
GAN800roope, Maemo Select is for owners.09:23
MacerShadowJK: haha09:23
Macerirony at its best09:23
roopeWell. It works nicely.09:23
tigertyeah. no problem viewing that on n900 at all09:23
tigertexcept for that promovideo flash issue09:24
tigertneed to poke jussi about that09:24
Macern900 looks beautiful09:24
ShadowJKdoes he have a HD source for it? I noticed one of the marketing videos are available as HD on youtube, and the other only as HQ09:24
Macerso is it an actual phone?09:24
roopeNow we can say it: Yes, it's an actual phone. :)09:25
timeless_mbpheh, yeah09:25
timeless_mbpit's a phone09:25
timeless_mbpi called my sister somewhere in lapland with it yesterday evening09:25
roope"Noo... We're Nokia. Why would Nokia do phones?" ;)09:25
ShadowJK(then wait for people to whine and say they don't want a phone, then reply saying it works without sim card too)09:25
ShadowJKI assume it does ;)09:25
tigertphones are boring anyway09:26
timeless_mbpit does09:26
tigertit does all this other shit09:26
timeless_mbpunlike s6009:26
Macerroope: haha09:26
johnxwonder if it can be tethered :)09:26
timeless_mbpwhich insists on not letting you go into "online" or "silent" modes w/o a sim09:26
GAN800roope, can you comment on the phone orientation activation? Does it come up whenever it's in portrait or only from desktop?09:26
* timeless_mbp grumbles about s60's "multimedia computers"09:26
Macerjohnx: haha09:26
johnxI also wonder if it will work with my cheap-o $10/month t-zones data plan09:26
ShadowJKoh I thought you could go wlan without sim09:26
timeless_mbpGAN800: only from desktop like things09:26
timeless_mbpand only if you don't disable it09:26
timeless_mbpbecause you can disable it09:26
Macerjohnx: i wonder if it will work with tmobile at all09:26
timeless_mbpMacer: as a network, it'll work w/ tmobile09:27
Maceri searched far and wide for a tmobile nokia phone that didn't suck09:27
tigertShadowJK: you can of course09:27
Macertimeless_mbp: 3G?09:27
johnxMacer, you need to read the specs09:27
GAN800timeless_mbp, thanks, I can quell some insane people on tmo.09:27
Macergo nokia :)09:27
timeless_mbpthat isn't the same as saying you can find it from them09:27
Maceri went on their online chat to their market support09:27
timeless_mbpjust that technically it would09:27
Macerand the fucker was throwing att promotions at me09:27
Macer"well. that would be a great reason to change!"09:27
* GAN800 really, really needs AT&T 3G.09:28
timeless_mbpGAN800: yeah well09:28
MacerGAN800: it sucks in chicago something awful09:28
qwerty12_N810Americans really, really need non-shit networks09:28
Macerit is the worst you can get here :)09:28
timeless_mbpi'd settle for at&t letting me call people in the usa when i'm on the east coast09:28
Macertmobile is great tho09:28
* GAN800 is going to be scewed.09:28
* timeless_mbp grumbles about incompetent network operations people09:28
timeless_mbpMacer: tmobile coverage is typically bad ime09:28
timeless_mbpi had a choice:09:28
GAN800Can't even get T-Mobile 3G here.09:28
johnxqwerty12_N810, t-mo is a good example, as long as you lie to them through your teeth :)09:28
timeless_mbpuse tmobile and call people from outside09:28
Macertimeless_mbp: well. i hardly use my phone to call people ;)09:29
johnxdepends on where you are of course09:29
GAN800I'm going to have to tether to a data-only plan on my goddamn 5800.09:29
timeless_mbpuse at&t, call people in any other country from anywhere on the east coast and use internet (but no calling Americans)09:29
Macerhonestly most of the time i just use it as a modem09:29
qwerty12_N810johnx: heh.. t-mobile isn't bad here, actually. Guess it shows what your phone market is like :p09:29
GAN800It's always something with Nokia.09:29
Macertimeless_mbp:  well. att here drops like crazy09:29
Macerdata and voice09:29
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timeless_mbpMacer: where's here?09:29
Macereven when not mobile ;)09:29
Macertimeless_mbp: chicago09:29
tigertGAN800: its something with your lovely phone operator really :S09:29
timeless_mbpi've been through chicago, w/ cingular09:30
timeless_mbpbut that was a while ago09:30
johnxqwerty12_N810, $10/mo for unlimited data as long as you tell them it's not for a smart phone :)09:30
timeless_mbpand i wasn't heavily using my phone then09:30
tigertwhat it sounds to me, is that the US phone operator landscape is ultimate piss-on-customers-eye09:30
Maceryeah.. cingular/att sucks09:30
GAN800tigert, can't change that, but Nokia could ship a modem that's not going to screw me over.09:30
tigertfrom what I hear from my american friends09:30
johnxmention "smart phone" and "ah! well you need to pay $30+/mo"09:30
Macermergers ruin things09:30
qwerty12_N810johnx: heh09:30
GAN800What good is a stupid phone tablet without 3G?09:30
tigertGAN800: its your operator that says you need plan XYZ to do "foo"09:30
Maceratt bought cingular and shut down 1892372197 towers09:30
GAN800tigert, plan isn't an issue.09:31
GAN800Frequency support is.09:31
Maceranyways. i am very happy that it supports tmob 3G09:31
GAN800I can use my $15/mo data plan just fine.09:32
tigertwow :D09:32
tigertnow that is crazy looking thing09:32
GAN800I just need a modem that supports AT&T 3G frequencies.09:32
* GAN800 is so goddamn tired of Nokia.09:32
MacerGAN800: doesn't most nokia hardware do it? :)09:33
Maceror you mean an actual modem?09:33
Macerand nothing more?09:33
GAN800Apparently not the only piece of hardware that matters.09:33
johnxGAN800, pandora+usb data modem09:33
* johnx ducks09:33
Macer"the only piece of hardware that matters09:33
Macer ?09:33
GAN800No, I mean a goddamn phone that supports AT&T 3G.09:33
Macerno kidding09:34
Macerno att 3G support on n900?09:34
Macer:) awesome09:34
* Macer hopes this begins the fall of att09:34
Macerlike enron09:34
qwerty12_N810Tell AT&T to sharpen their act then. I can use 3G on any of the networks we have here.09:34
johnxit just kills me that we have essentially 4 frequency incompatible carriers09:34
GAN800T-Mobile has zero coverage here.09:34
johnxyay "open market"09:34
MacerGAN800: just the opposite here ;)09:35
Maceris it really that hard to make a radio that can support all the freqs?09:35
GAN800Plus the fact that I'm stuck on a plan with two iPhones.09:35
MacerGAN800: teh price you pay09:35
GAN800Macers, apparently, or Nokia wouldn't be screwing me over again.09:35
GAN800Macer, it's that or $50 more a month.09:36
johnxqwerty12_N810, it was a question of gov't regulation, ie the lack of any, which led to carriers using freq as a "lock in"09:36
GAN800For a T-Mobile plan that has no 3G coverage here.09:36
MacerGAN800: yeah. they have you on their list of "people to screw"09:36
* GAN800 sighs.09:36
Macerjust pay the 50 more a month you cheap bastard :)09:36
GAN800So tired of this platform.09:36
GAN800Macer, there's no 3G, so it doesn't help.09:37
Macerthen nm09:37
GAN800T-Mobile coverage here is practically analog-only.09:37
johnxGAN800, move :)09:37
qwerty12_N810johnx: sounds typical :)09:37
chxCan anyone confirm that Rogers/Fido in the Great White North uses 2100MHz for HSDPA?09:37
MacerGAN800: where do you livce?09:37
GAN800johnx, :rolleyes:09:37
Macerthey had 3G coverage all over hte place there09:38
qwerty12_N810Oh, in that case, johnx is right: move.09:38
Macerbut their towers were knocked down by hurricanes09:38
johnxchx, keep in mind there are more than one "2100MHz" 3G frequencies, IIRC09:38
GAN800qwerty12, ever been here?09:38
chxjohnx: well. I jsut want to use the N900 w/ my Fido 6G/$30 data plan :)09:39
qwerty12_N810GAN800: No. Although I hear the beaches are nice :)09:39
GAN800Some of the best in the world.09:39
chxwhat shocks me is that they shrunk the screen by a centimetre and kept the resolution09:39
chxis that a new PPI record?09:39
GAN800It's alsl not filled with socialists like CA.09:40
* chx checks
johnxlaughs about the thought of Seattle beaches, probably about the same as the beaches closest to qwerty12_N810 :)09:40
* GAN800 sighs.09:40
chxno. the X1 is still higher w/ 3.0 @ 800x48009:40
GAN800Nokia's killing all of my enthusiam.09:40
GAN800High-five, Nokia.09:40
* tigert lives in a socialist country with great 3.5G coverage and unlimited data for 20 euros per month09:41
GAN800tigert, you also pay taxes like crazy.09:41
* tigert thinks GAN800 is blaming the wrong tree here really09:41
tigertGAN800: sure, but a lot less insurance09:41
MacerGAN800: just use edge09:41
MyrttiGAN800: and get virtually free healthcare with it09:41
tigertI bet it pretty much evens out in the end09:41
Myrttinext question09:41
Macerand wifi09:41
GAN800Fixing US carriers is hard.09:41
Macerdoesn't fl have wifi like.. EVERYWHERE?09:41
GAN800Adding two goddamn frequencies to a phone is easy.09:42
tigertGAN800: blame your operators who choose the handsets they sell to you09:42
johnxGAN800, can't be any harder than fixing dogs and cats :D09:42
tigertnot the manufacturers really09:42
GAN800Myrtti, there's no such thing as a free lunch.09:42
tigertGAN800: there isnt, thats why I said it pretty much evens out in the end09:43
adeusmushrooms from the forrest09:43
johnxnope, just a previously paid for lunch :)09:43
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GAN800tigert, it doesn't matter, I'm about burnt out on Maemo.09:43
tigertthe experience seems much different though from what I hear from americans compared to europe09:43
MyrttiGAN800: buy an iphone and be merry ;-)09:43
* GAN800 will go live in the hills and hunt deer.09:43
tigertGAN800: I dont think florida has much hills? :)09:44
GAN800johnx, with a massive, inefficient leach eating most of it.09:44
johnxif you're hunting dear, you'll be wanting something sharp for that, like a palm pre :)09:44
GAN800tigert, plenty of deer, though.09:44
johnxGAN800, just like those damn socialist fire departments09:44
* GAN800 sleeps.09:44
adeusthe us used to have private fire stations09:45
tigertGAN800: but hey, all I know from US is few years of work visits and watching Sicko, and life in north Europe09:45
tigertso take my talk with a grain of salt ;)09:45
johnx'night GAN800. :)09:45
tigertsleep well :)09:45
GAN800tigert, getting info from Moore documentaries is about the worst place to go.09:46
tigertno doubt about that :)09:46
johnx...followed by lobbyists, political commercials and IRC :)09:46
tigerthence the disclaimer ;D09:46
tigertGAN800: but socialism is not that bad really09:47
tigertsure there are issues everywhere no matter what system you use09:47
tigertbut I cannot complain that much on how things are in finland at least09:48
lpotterI wish Nokia was socialist and give me a free n90009:48
tigertoh well, time to raise shareholder value09:49
lpotterwell, I try everyday at work :)09:49
johnxhuh, thinking about phone carrier subsidized handsets as a form of socialism is a fun thought experiment09:50
adeusand you may have one09:50
adeusin the form of the carrier infrastructure09:51
* tigert hopes the n900 had a flash sync port ;)09:51
tigertthat would be fun09:51
kirma"flash sync" ?09:52
tigert<- photogeek09:52
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johnxah, a "hot shoe" if my terminology is correct? but can't you make a rig to sync the flash even based on shutter sound?09:54
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tigertwell, the shutter sound is played via gstreamer09:54
tigerteven while it is pretty nicely in sync, it is not still good enough to match flash duration really09:54
tigertwhich is like really short09:55
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suihkulokkioptical flash sync09:55
tigertand optical slaves dont work with the led flash09:55
tigertI tried wtih my n95 once at the studio09:56
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timeless_mbptigert: what is butter called here?09:59
timeless_mbpa guest wants to buy some09:59
timeless_mbp(not margerine)09:59
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tigertin finnish?09:59
timeless_mbpwhich brands? :)09:59
tigert(#maemo - the channel of all things under the sun :))10:00
ShadowJK"ingmariini" name makes me suspicious10:00
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tigertthats not butter10:00
tigertthat margarin10:00
tigertbut the "voi" is butter10:00
oilinkiand when you are sad, you can say 'voi voi'10:01
tigertsmör smör, in swedish10:01
tigertjulsexan kommeri tillbaka10:01
infobottigert meant: julsexan kommer tillbaka10:01
oilinkihar du redan redan redan10:01
ShadowJKbilingual translation humour :-)10:02
Myrttitoss in English and the soup is cooked10:03
* timeless_mbp frowns10:03
timeless_mbpso, my guests want creamed spinach10:03
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timeless_mbpand they want to be sure there isn't any animal shortening in the cream10:03
timeless_mbpis that a concern?10:03
tigertshortening? wazzat?10:03
ShadowJKWhat's animal shortening?10:04
timeless_mbpthe opposite of vegetable shortening :(10:04
tigertyou mean animal fat?10:04
oilinkiI just wonder how spanish speaking people come along in thailand. 'Loco' maens in thai 'and' .. and in spanish it's 'crazy' :)10:04
ShadowJKso like, what's shortening then10:04
timeless_mbp"lard" perhaps10:04
timeless_mbptigert: yes10:04
maswantigert: shortening is a horrible .us invention which is kind of like margarine, except without trying to make it similar to butter. quite similar to machine grease. hi btw. :)10:05
timeless_mbpbut as a cooking product its called shortening10:05
infobottimeless_mbp meant: but as a cooking product it's called shortening10:05
tigertmaswan! :)10:05
timeless_mbpright, so... is it a concern?10:06
ShadowJKI have a feeling trying to source ingredients for your spinach in finland is like trying to get sour milk for finnish recipies in the US ;-)10:06
tigertonly if you are concerned ;)10:06
tigertI dunno, there are vegetable based "ruokakerma" cream-like products, but I dont think they put lard in cream here10:06
maswanShadowJK: buttermilk is kind of similar, except not as sour. you can get by on that though, or yoghurt, depending on which recipe it is.10:06
tigertcheck the package, I guess it says whats in it10:06
tigertif it has, it should mention it10:07
timeless_mbptigert: in Finnish and Swedish10:07
timeless_mbpand in EU E numbers10:07
* maswan has spent a little time of cooking swedish in .us :)10:07
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timeless_mbpall three of which are incomprehensible to the party10:07
tigerttimeless_mbp: so ask some cute girl in the store?10:07
timeless_mbpi'm not doing the shopping, my sister and her friends are10:07
ShadowJKtimeless, is whether it's animal or vegetable based cram a concern because your guest is a vegetarian?10:07
tigerttimeless_mbp: so butter is ok as it is not part of the animal, but rather a product created by the animal?10:08
maswantigert: they can ask some cute guy in the store then?10:08
maswantimeless_mbp: ehm. ^^10:08
ShadowJKOh, cream made entirely from dairy would be fine too?10:09
maswantimeless_mbp: I cook for a (lacto-,ovo-,) vegetarian gf, and we've never come accross a margarine that has lard in it in swedish stores. Cheese on the other hand is hard to find, since most of them have rennet.10:09
* lpotter finds non rennet cheese in Australia10:10
maswanThere is some, luckily Valio is sold here, which is better than most swedish dairies in making non rennet cheese.10:11
timeless_mbpmaswan: does valio have parmesan   ? :)10:11
timeless_mbpmaswan: what about creamed spinach? :)10:12
tigerttimeless_mbp: parmesan is a protected name afaik, so it can only be italian?10:12
timeless_mbp(this is definitely a better use of #maemo)10:12
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, you probably need to steal^Wborrow a N900 from nokia and give it to your chef for trying his luck with ;-)10:12
maswantimeless_mbp: Dunno, have never checked. Edam and Emmentaler are the ones we get here rennet free. And coop's grated mozarella for pizza.10:12
tigertbut valio has Forte which is similar10:12
timeless_mbptigert: ok10:12
maswantimeless_mbp: Haven't really checked that recently...10:12
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maswantimeless_mbp: the sneaky part to keep an eye out for as a vegetarian seems to be e120 though, carmine. Anything red or yellow might have that in it...10:15
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Khertan_n810Hi all !10:16
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Khertan_n810The other datetime picker try :éo007.3gp10:16
aol_timeless: generally, all the stuff here that named as some basic ingredient, is just that without any "addition"... because if you modify the product the law says you need to call it something else10:16
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tigertyeah, "voimariini" had to be renamed to "oivariini" because of that10:17
timeless_mbpaol_: but would "creamed spinach" count?10:17
tigertsince it was not butter10:17
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tigertbut margarin10:17
timeless_mbpthe problem is mixing spinach and cream10:17
Khertan_n810someone know if there is any public api for telphony, sms on Maemo510:17
aol_timeless_mbp: well creamed spinach is not really a basic ingredient. cream and spinach is :)10:17
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ShadowJK "Ingredients: Cream" :)10:18
timeless_mbpaol_, fwiw: is => are10:18
aol_I suck in English10:18
timeless_mbpin => at10:18
Khertan_n810just put some banana in freezer for 4 hour10:18
Khertan_n810and then mix it with a blender10:19
Khertan_n810you ll get the best ice cream10:19
timeless_mbpaol_: i appreciate that you're trying10:19
timeless_mbpand hope that you're striving to improve10:19
ShadowJKuh, this other cream lists cellulose as ingredient10:20
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chxBanana... not my fav.10:20
aol_timeless_mbp: Actually I should know English well enough not to make such mistakes, but I'm just being lazy :(10:20
Stskeepsjust like sausages, you don't want to know what is in cream10:20
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Stskeepsor how it's made10:20
chxTry, however, an avocado milkshake10:20
chxit's fabulous! and very healthy10:20
chxjust close your eyes when drinking because drinking something green is eek!10:21
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timeless_mbpKhertan_n810: so fwiw10:21
aol_timeless_mbp: so what is the problem with mixing cream and spinach?10:22
timeless_mbpyour lines should be thicker10:22
timeless_mbpaol_: the problem isn't precisely with mixing10:22
ShadowJKStskeeps, cream is made by attaching things that look like giant penis pumps to long slender cylindrical bodyparts and then separating the thick stuff that comes out from the more fluid stuff10:22
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timeless_mbpit's whatever strange stuff might be in the cream10:22
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timeless_mbpi don't really have any idea what might be in the cream10:22
ShadowJKCream as in very fat milk?10:23
timeless_mbpit /should be/10:23
aol_timeless_mbp: ok. there is nothing else in finnish cream than cream, if you buy something that says only Kerma10:23
timeless_mbpbut i don't really trust strange european comapnies10:23
timeless_mbpaol_: yeah, thanks10:23
aol_timeless_mbp: they don't add any pig's fat in it, it's illegal10:23
timeless_mbpanyway, the group has gone food hunting10:23
timeless_mbpand i'm going to walk along the shredded tram path to work, i guess10:24
aol_yeah I'll jump on my motorbike as well, off to work10:24
timeless_mbpsomeone tell khertan when he returns to thicken the lines of his clock10:24
timeless_mbpfwiw, the one nokia has is prettier10:25
kristian_would this be the right place to ask questions about the n900?10:25
timeless_mbpalbeit just as annoying10:25
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Stskeepskristian_: you can give it a try :)10:25
timeless_mbpprobably not a bad place10:25
timeless_mbpjust don't ask about dates10:25
ShadowJKtimeless, right. Look for a package that looks like a short milk container of 2dl. I'm assuming you know what the "normal" milk containers look like... except, instead of light blue, blue with yellow, blue, and red to denote different fat milks, the cream container is a yellowish colour10:25
timeless_mbpkhertan: thicken the lines of your clock10:25
johnxkristian_, there's probably not a *better* place. let's put it that way :)10:25
ShadowJKand that's pasteurized dairy cream10:25
timeless_mbpShadowJK: i showed the picture you gave earlier10:26
timeless_mbpShadowJK: note, we're all americans here, so saying 2dl is pointless :)10:26
timeless_mbpsaying "1 school lunch milk carton" otoh10:26
kristian_okay, my no1 concern is japanese support... will i be able to type in japanese across applications?10:26
timeless_mbpkristian_: afaik japan wasn't listed as a market10:27
chxkristian_: sure , but you need the N900J version which has 1234567890 keys to enter all the symbols.10:27
timeless_mbpi don't know if china was, someone can indicate if it was10:27
Khertan_wantan90what is the list of 'market' ?10:27
* timeless_mbp shrugs10:27
Stskeepskristian_: there was previously work in making japanese input methods10:27
timeless_mbptechnically we've had a very good IME since the 77010:27
Stskeepsin the community10:27
timeless_mbpbut we never delivered it10:27
johnxkristian_, I'd bet that it will be supported by some type of input plugin sometime after launch, but I wouldn't buy just expecting it to work10:28
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kristian_but there is a japanese model then?10:28
timeless_mbpthey're joking10:28
Khertan_wantan90just a question how many charactere did you use on japanese keyboard ?10:28
timeless_mbpor pulling your leg10:28
timeless_mbpKhertan_wantan90: look up katakana10:28
timeless_mbp(and hiragana)10:29
qwerty12_N810Language support on sums up what it'll support out of the box10:29
johnxKhertan_wantan90, you can get away with inputing japanese with a qwerty layout10:29
kristian_hmm. then it's a no-go then. im going to japan in a month and i need a phone with good language support across applications and preferably skype support too..10:29
timeless_mbpnote that language support doesn't imply markets10:29
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timeless_mbpwe've had support for Brazilian Portuguese and have never sold there10:29
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Stskeepskristian_: input methods or characters?10:30
qwerty12_N810The question being asked is not one of where it will be sold though :)10:30
gomiamhi everyone... while you are talking about N900... ¿are there binary blobs in the kernel that make it difficult to keep supporting it when Nokia stops putting out versions of Maemo for it?10:30
johnxkristian_, I would have doubts about it working on japanese carriers anyways10:30
johnxalso, the phone isn't out until october ...10:30
Stskeepsgomiam: AFAIK kernel is fully open source.10:30
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timeless_mbpalthough, in this case, it doesn't look like we have Brazilian Portuguese10:30
Stskeepsthere's the obvious firmware .bin's like on a normal PC probably10:30
gomiamStskeeps: thanks10:30
gomiamok, ok10:30
Stskeepsbut nothing restricting kernel10:30
kristian_stskeeps: both10:31
gomiamI was asking because of things like the PAP situation in N8xx10:31
* timeless_mbp frowns10:31
Stskeepsgomiam: PAP .. wasn't the issue with that actually the system software, not so much kernel?10:31
timeless_mbpour video camera has a 8 more pixels of resolution horizontally than our display?10:31
gomiamStskeeps: it was both, AFAIK. But let me check just in case.10:31
timeless_mbpStskeeps: users can't tell the difference between layers10:31
timeless_mbpeverything's a "kernel" issue :)10:32
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: when someone mentions PAP i expect them to have some degree of understanding :P10:32
Khertan_wantan90it s seems10:32
* timeless_mbp doesn't :)10:32
ShadowJKtimeless, mod 1610:32
Stskeepsi wonder if squeezebox touch is hackable10:33
gomiamok, so I mixed PAP and the propietary wifi kernel module.10:34
ShadowJKit's nice. Video codecs dislike things that aren't %16, but the scaler in the GPU doesn't care (I hope)10:34
* timeless_mbp chuckles @
timeless_mbpStskeeps: i win :)10:34
ShadowJKthere's opensource wifi driver now, isn't there10:34
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gomiamin my defense, the way to work around the PAP issue was, as I read from the bugfile, that a different kernelo driver was needed for wpa_supplicant to work.10:35
johnxright, and even the proprietary kernel module actually wasn't stopping people from using vanilla wpasupplicant and using PAP that way, it was just a pain, not impossible :)10:35
etonthe phone related function of n900 is not opensource?10:35
Stskeepseton: we really don't know though10:35
ShadowJKsome real issues might be that the gps driver depends on a kernel bug that's fixed in new kernels, and the n810 keyboard is broken in newer kernels (though luke has a fix?)10:35
Stskeepsphonet and kernel interfaces are OSS AFAIK10:36
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timeless_mbpyeah i'm pretty sure phonet is open10:37
timeless_mbpthe ui is likely to be closed, but you're unlikely to want to do anything there10:37
timeless_mbpthe ui is shared w/ other providers (SIP, Skype, ...)10:37
timeless_mbpand those are pluggable10:38
ShadowJKcan you add your own voice and chat prov...ah10:38
wazdo/ all :)10:38
timeless_mbpthe same applies to chat10:38
timeless_mbpthat stuff is mostly the same architecture afaiu as was in the n81010:38
timeless_mbpso you can drop in irc support or whatever10:38
Stskeepscall timeless_mbp on irc? ;P10:39
suihkulokkieton: you might want to look at ofono - n900 doesn't use it, but ofono already includes code for nokia-style phone interface10:39
ShadowJKor google voice (or whatever) without the "UI consistency" issues that apple is so worried about ;-)10:39
Luke-Jrgomiam: while N8x0 don't need proprietary kernel modules, there are still two userland blobs that make it impractical for community support10:39
* timeless_mbp grumbles10:39
timeless_mbpso... would someone here please be my linguist?10:39
timeless_mbpa consultant on language choice10:41
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etonsuihkulokki, ofono is not completed yet.10:41
Luke-Jrtimeless_mbp: if you're aiming for compatibility, I'd choose English10:42
johnxtimeless_mbp, done. I assume you're fine with me charging my usual rate?10:42
timeless_mbpbeer later?10:42
johnxdeal :)10:42
etonsuihkulokki, even USSD, GPRS, DUN are in still the road map.10:42
timeless_mbpeton: well, it's not like we offer DUN10:42
Stskeepsno tethering to another phone in maemo5? :P10:43
timeless_mbpalthough i suspect that you can add it yourself and that someone will package that10:43
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, The poor guy needs a hoarde of linguists just to survive paying for his groceries in finland10:43
kirmaa good assumption that there's little reason for closed-source code on GSM modem(phone) functionality on low level is that even if it was closed source, the ability to switch software freely would make it very hard to get certified by FCC/ETSI/whatever for network use10:44
kirmathe modem functionality has to be either physically separated to a separate hardware or run under some sort of trusted computing environment to make it acceptable under those terms, I suppose.10:45
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suihkulokkieton: but if it would be complete and ready, it would take away from you all the fun of actually hacking on the code ;)10:45
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Luke-Jrkirma: why?10:46
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Luke-Jrthe real problem would be using modified versions, it shouldn't be making the modifications10:47
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tlirhas anyone seen the n900 page?10:48
Myrttitlir: make a wild guess10:48
tliror am I like slowly catching up on things and that has been around for like decades :)10:48
qwerty12_N810tlir: You've seen the topic, right?10:49
tliryeah, I'm seeing the topic10:49
kirmatlir: millions10:49
Luke-Jrtlir: on IRC, minutes are years10:49
tlirjust getting a bit excited, that's all10:49
tlirdoes anyone want to buy my completely-unused-n810 ? :)10:49
Luke-Jrtlir: for $10, sure10:49
Stskeepsyou can donate it to the community if you want :P10:49
tlirhey $10 is a good deal10:50
ShadowJKI'll up it to 10E10:50
tlirI thought you'd go for no more than 510:50
Luke-Jrtlir: I'm including shipping10:50
* tlir is kidding obviously10:50
tlirI'm just wondering, is the maemo5 stack will run on the n810 or not?10:51
Luke-Jrtlir: see Mer10:51
Stskeepsdepends on which parts you mean10:51
Stskeepsmost of the stack runs on n81010:51
Stskeepsbut a lot of the jazzy stuff you see isn't out or open sourced yet :)10:51
tlirdid they publish a deadline?10:51
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tlirfor releasing it10:52
Luke-Jrtlir: pretty sure it will be released in 200910:52
Stskeepsreleasing what? :P10:52
Stskeepstlir: beta2 is already out10:52
Stskeepsnot sure about final SDK10:52
Khertan_wantan90of course n900  is announced for October10:53
tlirahh, ok10:53
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Stskeeps(honestly, i wouldn't mind knowing a final SDK release date)10:53
Stskeepswould help planning a lot10:53
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Khertanwantan900does there is telephony api actually on beta sdk ?10:54
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Stskeepswell they didn't really reveal it was a phone until now10:54
Khertanwantan900oh really ...10:54
Khertanwantan900i was sure ...10:54
Khertanwantan900it s a phone too10:54
chxIt's a bit scary10:55
chxyour average linux hacker with access to ... pretty much , your wallet.10:55
chxI would like to see the telephony part extremely well protected10:56
chxdo you want to place a phone call to Mauritius for 24hrs just because Joe misplaced a dot somewhere :P ?10:56
Stskeepsthat's the problem really - if you have a very flexible phone these things are possible10:56
chxit's one thing to install every piece o crap from extras devel now10:56
Stskeepsfrankly, just add something in sudoers.d ..10:56
Stskeepschx: i don't think it's for fun they have the legal warning10:57
chxbut ... i would be a bit wary with the phone stuff.10:57
Stskeeps.. especially the very annoying fremantle one10:57
chxwhat legal warning?10:57
Stskeepsmm, the one when you install non-nokia packages10:58
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chxlegal warnings10:59
chxlegal warnings are good to cover the sorry behind of Nokia10:59
chxi want to cover *mine*10:59
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gomiamchx: buy some clothes :P10:59
Stskeepsthen drive responsibly with your tablet10:59
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kirmais the "nokia" repository of applications public already, btw?11:01
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kirmajust interested of the amount of applications available11:02
Khertanwantan900(09:56:41) chx: I would like to see the telephony part extremely well protected <<<  buy a iphone11:02
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Khertanwantan900kirma: most python app will run without changes11:03
kirmaactually S60-style capability restrictions would make quite a lot sense exactly there, in phone calls/SMS sending11:04
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kirmakhertanwantan900: I thought more how end lusers see the available app base11:04
Khertanwantan900just let s some times to dev :)11:07
Khertanwantan900for example, i dev on the device himself ...11:07
Khertanwantan900so i didn't have test yet my app on maemo511:07
Khertanwantan900but i think that once device will be available for dev ... you ll see many apps appear in the repository11:08
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Khertanwantan900 ---> Directory listing is not allowed11:11
Khertanwantan900oh ?11:11
qwerty12_N810Yeah, they haven't removed their porn from that folder yet11:11
Khertanwantan900hum ... i ve forgotten the extras ;)11:12
StskeepsKhertanwantan900: go for /pool instead11:13
Luke-Jrkirma: the "nokia" repository is *never* public, it's locked to device owners.11:14
Luke-Jrunless you mean the generic stuff11:14
Khertanwantan900 <-11:14
Khertanwantan900stskeeps > i prefer to read the description of the packages ;)11:15
Khertanwantan900euh ...11:15
Khertanwantan900mcalendar is in the fremantle extras-devel11:15
Khertanwantan900i ve never push it here11:16
Khertanwantan900does they get application from diablo and recompile/repackage it ?11:16
Stskeepsit was pushed automatically afaik11:16
Khertanwantan900hum ... interesting ...11:17
Khertanwantan900did someone have a maemo sdk vmware image ? :)11:17
Khertanwantan900i mean a fremantle sdk vmware image ?11:17
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* Khertanwantan900 will read if there is news about "developpers program" for the n90011:19
pupnikgarage maemo vmware images still missing the .vmx file?11:22
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Khertanwantan900the main problem isn't the .vmx missing ... it s more that is Maemo Diablo11:25
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joschhey guys!11:26
Khertanwantan900hi josch11:26
joschis there any info yet on the hw build into the n900? most importantly: the modem used11:26
Stskeepsgo see kernel sources for beta2 i guess11:26
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Stskeeps(this might not be accurate.)11:26
joschah so there are already some devices out there?11:27
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Stskeepsnah, but nokia has been playing with open cards in a lot of the SW11:27
Stskeepsfremantle has had pre-alpha, pre-alpha2, alpha, beta1, beta211:28
wazdlol, maemo browser now has "hover mode" :)11:28
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Stskeepscan we consider changing profile "Itt thanks" to be Thanks or something? :P11:31
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wazd "In Chapter II we\rquote ll discuss ... roll over mode, scrollbars and others." 8)11:31
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Khertanwantan900someone can try for me PyGTKEditor in the fremantle sdk ? (available in extras-devel)11:34
X-FadeStskeeps: We can consider it, but it is a bit hard to do that. As the name is used as a var etc.11:35
* Stskeeps wonders how on earth karma will be calculated if things start moving into git trees and such11:36
X-FadeStskeeps: Probably not ;)11:36
Stskeepswe should start thinking about how we can calculate based on platform contributions really :P11:36
X-FadeStskeeps: Well, I can easily hook that up to the packages interface ;)11:37
X-FadeSo releases and number of unique packages can add karma.11:37
X-FadeAnd we can add Mer tracking too of course..11:38
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Stskeepsbut it's really also about let's say.. people participating in the sprints doesn't get any karma for the tasks done, just of the effects on wiki/blog/talk of it11:38
Stskeepsor mer developers getting karma for completed tasks11:38
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Stskeepsright now we kind of encourage people just doing apps and whining on talk or submitting bugs ;)11:39
Khertanwantan900It should be a good idea ... but please after the device program :) i m still in #17 pos ... but after that i ll be so low :)11:39
X-FadeAs long as you come up with some good metric that can be counted, it can be implemented as a plugin.11:39
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Stskeepseven though LOC is a lousy one ;)11:39
X-FadeStskeeps: Well, then i should just do a big indent run on the code base ;)11:40
Stskeepsi'll think about it11:40
Stskeepsit's something we'll probably need post-summit11:40
X-FadeStskeeps: closes bug #xxxx11:40
Stskeepsfor instance11:40
Stskeepsor patch for bug #xxxx11:40
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X-FadeClosing bugs should be karma+++ ;)11:40
X-FadeBut that would mean that you need to add everything to a tracker.11:41
X-FadeEvery task at least.11:41
Khertanwantan900and that the tracker let user add version11:41
Stskeepsin mer we have a sprintweb.. but it doesn't put a point estimate on each task11:41
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qwerty12_N810X-Fade: I keep getting told that I am "not a maintainer of this package" when I click the Promote package link on . I assure you that I am a maintainer ;)11:41
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: I think it is because your session is lost.11:42
X-FadeI'm trying to figure out why sessions are dropped like mad.11:42
X-FadeWe added another server to the cluster yesterday and then sessions started to misbehave.11:42
joschhrm.. a quick grep through the changes made by nokia didnt reveil any definite options for the used modem there are pieces of code for telit as well for qualcomm chips11:43
Stskeepsprobably self-made, josch11:43
horizondo not they use some ti chips for this?11:44
qwerty12_N810X-Fade: Ah... I'll wait then :)11:44
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Well, just run the url at https.11:45
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: for now.11:45
Khertanwantan900horizon: search on google ARM Cortex A811:45
joschhorizon: since when does TI do modems?11:46
horizonti does multistandard mobile radio frontends for ages11:46
qwerty12_N810X-Fade: Appears to be working (albeit, very slowly), thanks11:47
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Uncached mode ;)11:47
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Or are you talking about promotion?11:47
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Checking big dependency trees 5 levels down takes some time.11:48
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qwerty12_N810Was talking about the time taken from me clicking "Promote package" to the page saying that it was done11:48
qwerty12_N810Heh, I can imagine...11:49
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Yeah, a lot of calcs and unfortunately a lot of calls to dpkg to do version comparison.11:49
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qwerty12_N810Well, congrats on the packages interface. It certainly is faster ticking boxes ;)11:52
jjmarinHi, anybody knows which pdf reader uses Maemo5 by default?. Where I can find the code?11:52
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Stskeepsjjmarin: it's in diablo too afaik11:53
Mekthe maemo5 one has a slightly different UI of course...11:54
Stskeepsi kinda doubt that.. it's still hildon11:55
jjmarin... Do you know where I can the code :)11:55
Mekstill hildon, but the menu has kind of changed, and things like that11:55
X-Fadejjmarin: The maemo5 apps aren't released yet.11:55
X-Fadejjmarin: only sdk.11:55
Mekyeah, okay. the ui indeed seems to be more or less the same, except for the menu thing11:56
jjmarinSo it's an update of the pdf reader for Maemo4, isn't it?11:56
X-Fadejjmarin: That would be a safe bet, yes.11:57
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jjmarinOK, that code is available ?11:57
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jjmarinX-Fade: Where I can find it?11:58
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jjmarindo you know the name, the list is large ;)12:00
Khertanwantan900A question to every maemo lover here ...12:00
Stskeepsjrocha: osso-pdf-reader12:00
Khertanwantan900what do you think of this :
Meknot oss-pdf-viewer?12:00
Khertanwantan900and particulary this :
Mekthat is the name of the package in fremantle...12:00
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Mekosso-pdf-viewer that is12:01
jrochaStskeeps: no problem about pinging me :)12:01
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Khertanwantan900it s an datetime picker for mPIM where you can set the start time end time and date at the same time12:01
jjmarinMek:  Thanks a lot !!! :)12:02
X-FadeSeems to be the latest public version12:02
jjmarinX-Face: Thanks again :)12:02
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VDVsxX-Fade, I've a problem with a dep for one of the games that I want to port, the stupid package depends on itself to build, i.e in order to build the package you need a binary of the compiler shipped in the package :( (free pascal)12:06
X-FadeVDVsx: Wtf? :)12:06
VDVsxX-Fade, anything we can do ? the dep is only needed for building the game12:06
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X-FadeVDVsx: You would probably need to do it in 2 steps then?12:07
X-FadeVDVsx: Upload the compiler in the package first.12:08
pupniki am trying to remember the game VDVsx12:10
pupnikheh, i know i saw one with pascal12:10
VDVsxpupnik, a lot of games depend on pascal and perl :(12:10
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pupnikthat robot game remake from c64?12:11
suihkulokkirobotfindskitten ?12:11
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VDVsxpupnik, nop, hedgewars12:12
pupnikgood luck12:12
VDVsxworms-like :)12:12
VDVsxis Qt :)12:12
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onionwhy don't have anything about the N900?12:30
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onionsearch won't find anything12:31
lardmanoo amazing, it's on the UK poages at last12:32
onionDasajev: but thanks12:32
Khertanwantan900onion: why didn't have anything about n810 and n800 :)12:32
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lardmanno pre-order yet for the uk site though12:33
tbfonion: my hope is, that it is not on the front page yet, because you cannot bye it yet12:33
Khertanwantan900oh ! n900 is now on nokia.fr12:33
Khertanwantan900in fr : to buy : call :)12:34
Khertanwantan900but they will surely said that it s not yet available :)12:35
oniontbf: yeah, but I would expect the site search would find it12:39
RST38hmoo all12:40
RST38hHow are things in the maemo land?12:40
tbfonion: must be some bug in their software: for instance you'll find it on when giving its specs...12:40
tbfonion: but the drop-down box doesn't list it12:40
lardmanhi RST38h12:40
tbfonion: same happens on the German site (and probably all other sites)12:40
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RST38hheya lardman12:41
* kirma preordered N900... well, if the price turns out to be too high, I just cancel the order.12:41
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onionlooks like it just takes a while for webmonkeys to do their thing :)12:41
kirmafrom local shop in ruoholahti, maybe folks there could deliver some to the shop? :I12:42
dl9pfrumors about the price already ?12:42
lardmanit was listed already iirc12:43 listed it at 599 euros, and press release the recommended price 500 euros plus taxes12:43
lardman500 euros + local taxes12:43
pupnikthats the price of a nice new pc12:45
pupnikthen again, it is a computer12:46
kirmatbf: tell me when it's available on web .fi web shop :]12:48
RST38h$500 is a really meek pc12:49
RST38hweak and cheap and low on features12:50
RST38hOh wait, that was 500 euros =)12:50
lardman£500 here will get you something half decent12:50
* RST38h hates the current exchange rate12:50
lardmansame here!12:50
RST38hsachin and ysss met in the ring of death for the final (?) showdown12:52
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|tbb|hi there, simple short question. will maemo5 work on n810 tablets?12:55
lardmannot as is12:55
lardmanbut Mer is looking to port features & compatibility12:55
RST38htbb: short answer is no12:55
Stskeepslong answer is somewhat12:56
Khertanwantan900and real answer is : in one year12:57
RST38hReal answer is probably "never"12:57
lardmanwell just cross fingers for opengl driver and then we're on a reasonably equal playing field12:57
RST38hIf by Maemo5 we understand the new desktop the task switcher, all the apps, etc12:57
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lardmanI guess those parts will be closed source, or will it all be open? As they are differentiators12:58
RST38hNo idea, but I guess it does not make a difference as long as we can't run underlying APIs on N8x012:59
lardmanwhich ones?12:59
RST38hThe OGL ES one for example13:00
RST38hAlso, if the maemo5 binaries are compiled for OMAP3, they may crash on OMAP213:01
lardmanyeah, well assuming we do get that one day13:01
lardmanyes, that was to be my next question, assuming some components are closed source, we'll need to ask Nokia nicely to release those compiled for our cpu13:01
RST38hBTW, if you remember that bug with 770 crash due to unaligned pointer, it is still there13:02
RST38hNobody fixed it13:02
RST38h So, I would not expect Nokia to oblige by fixing this kind of architectural bugs13:03
lardmanwhat components?13:03
lardmancomponent even13:03
RST38hthe theme thing13:03
|tbb|it was nice to have an ITT without phone cabilities, may i will switch to the new rumored ipodtouch then.13:03
lardmanRST38h: no I don't expect it, but they seem far more cooperative these days13:03
lardman|tbb|: you don't need to use the phone on it if you don't want13:03
Khertanwantan900but you must pay it :)13:04
Myrttilife is a beach, and then you learn how to spell13:05
lardmanI learned, my fingers just don't obey all the time :)13:07
|tbb|had 770 - n800 - n810 before, was satisfied and liked the opensource thinking behind. Any idea in which price region the new tablet err i mean the phone will stay13:08
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: use ohloh for it :)13:11
|tbb|may this device fit in my needings
Myrttigood luck in that13:12
timeless_mbpKhertanwantan900: you really need thicker lines for the clock face and hands13:14
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Kinshukhey guys anyone here from india ?13:18
Kinshuki am participating in an open source event and i am looking for someone who can talk about maemo there13:18
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timeless_mbppart of Maemo is in India (real Nokia employees)13:20
timeless_mbpask qgil for contact info13:20
pupnikyour english is sufficient to also talk-to non-indians13:28
Khertanwantan900(12:14:58) timeless_mbp: Khertanwantan900: you really need thicker lines for the clock face and hands <<< yep ... as i said this is not finished :)13:31
Khertanwantan900just a try :)13:31
Khertanwantan900but thanks to have take a look at it13:31
Khertanwantan900and i need optimize the code ... and found a way to better detect which things move13:32
Khertanwantan900hours or minutes  ...13:32
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: not a bad idea13:33
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Stskeepsohloh for karma13:33
Stskeepsit has the development time thing ;)13:34
timeless_mbpyeah... ohloh really is the right answer there13:34
timeless_mbpthey have to get git and co right anyway13:34
timeless_mbpso let it be their problem13:34
Khertanwantan900(12:34:34) Stskeeps: it has the development time thing ;)< hum ... but it doesn't work well13:37
Khertanwantan900and for those which didn't use git/svn/cvs ?13:38
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timeless_mbpit supports hg13:39
timeless_mbpand bzr13:39
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X-FadeOhloh would be pretty nice for that indeed. Although it is lagging on indexing a lot.13:42
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javispedromoo all13:43
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X-Fadeadeus: As the date in the url says: old :)13:44
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javispedroI hope qgil, or someone else at nokia, understands that the best fscinkg way to make someone port their applications to fremantle is to send a nearly free n900 his way.13:45
Kinshuktimeless_mbp thx13:45
javispedrotherefore moving his itch to the new platform and hoping he scratches it again.13:45
adeuslastlog revealed nothing!13:45
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adeusor last I missed that hands-on tour13:46
Stskeepsjavispedro: or a good developer rebate13:48
Stskeepsjavispedro: you're right though - and i think nokia does understand that :P13:48
aol_are there any preferred distros for Maemo 5 SDK ?13:48
Stskeepsdebian based i think13:48
aol_ok alright, I'll install ubuntu13:48
X-Fadejavispedro: Looking at the history, I think they have something planned.13:49
Khertanwantan900(12:49:07) aol_: are there any preferred distros for Maemo 5 SDK ? < Maemo ...13:49
* zerojayPC stretch/yawn13:50
javispedroI think they should play that ace more.13:50
aol_Khertanwantan900: can I run the sdk on maemo ? :)13:50
javispedroe.g. 5% initial discount, 10% rebate if we see your finished app.13:50
aol_on my N800? would be very cool :)13:50
Khertanwantan900no it s not possible :(13:50
aol_I sort of guessed :)13:50
Khertanwantan900javispedro: they are already sponsoring some people to the summit at Amsterdam in octobr13:51
Stskeepsi have no idea how the previous rebates were13:51
Stskeepsi wish i did though13:51
* Stskeeps came quite late in the game :)13:51
Khertanwantan900javispedro: and provide great discount for my n81013:51
lardmanhow, how do you mean?13:51
X-FadeStskeeps: Devices for 100 euro.13:52
Khertanwantan900i paid it 100Euro13:52
Stskeepsthat's fairly cheap13:52
lardmanyeah, £70 iirc13:52
X-FadeStskeeps: And free ones at akademy.13:52
Khertanwantan900hope i could get a n900 too for that price ...13:52
* qwerty12_N810 spits. He had a £180 N800 :)13:52
javispedrothey're not gonna do that this time, they must have realised  their developer base = half their consumer base ;)13:52
Khertanwantan900as 500 Euros HT is too high for my wife13:52
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: i honestly think you have a bigger chance of a devel machine than me :>13:53
zerojayPCI got my N810 free, but only because something went massively wrong with my discount code and finally, after about 10 months of it not working and being without a tablet (I sold my N800 when I got my dev discount), Quim just sent me one free.13:53
Stskeepsdevel rebate that is13:53
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: bollocks13:53
zerojayPCAnd two weeks later, the battery in it died. :/13:53
zerojayPCAnd somehow came back to life six months later.13:53
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: at least you got a N810 for free :)13:53
pupnikquim is doing a good job13:53
Khertanwantan900pupnik: yep13:53
aol_btw, any reason why Eclipse eetc would not run on N900?13:53
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: indeed, thanks again :)13:53
aol_would be kind of perverted to do programming on it13:54
Khertanwantan900aol_: eclipse is coded in java13:54
aol_still no JVM ?13:54
javispedroaol_, none at all, search for the embedded java se and try it.13:54
aol_ah ok13:54
slonopotamusaol_, 256ram13:54
javispedrobut on omap2 hw you'll die before it loads.13:54
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: meh, you bloody deserved it13:54
slonopotamusaol_, it will run, but slowly13:54
Khertanwantan900and there is real editor if you need13:54
aol_slonopotamus: but 1 GB virtual :)13:54
Khertanwantan900instead of Eclipse13:54
Khertanwantan900i suggest you to try PyGTKEditor13:55
tbfthe bigger problem for eclipse is the keyboard, friends13:55
slonopotamusaol_, meh, even if 1tb13:55
* Khertanwantan900 use it for doing his soft directly on his n810 in the train :)13:55
aol_so how about c++ etc, whats the footprint of those13:55
aol_I meant gcc13:55
slonopotamusKhertanwantan900, !!13:55
javispedroaol_, debian/mer chroot and go ahead.13:55
slonopotamusKhertanwantan900, can you fix redo, plz? :)13:55
Khertanwantan900it didn't work ?13:56
* Khertanwantan900 never made error13:56
slonopotamusit never worked13:56
Khertanwantan900oh ...13:56
slonopotamusit undoes13:56
slonopotamusinstead of redoing13:56
javispedroThe KhertHAL9000 computers are incapable of error13:56
javispedroit must be your fault.13:56
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Khertanwantan900i ll take a look :)13:56
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Khertanwantan900other complain ?13:58
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slonopotamusKhertan_afk, minor bug: it stops marking file as modified if you hit save but save fails (no permissions, for ex)14:00
slonopotamusKhertan_afk, scroll position is lost when switching from fullscreen. it scrolls to cursor14:01
slonopotamusKhertan_afk, also, cursor and scroll always point to end of file on file open. is it a feature? pointing to beginning is more natural, i think14:02
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Khertan_n810[13:13] <khertan_n810> PyGTKEditor 2.4.1 is now in the auto builder queuen[13:14] <khertan_n810> it fix the redo bug :)14:17
X-FadeAny jquery experts around?14:17
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Khertan_n810fixed / packaged /sent from my nit ...14:17
Khertan_n810and i still thanks x-fade for this auto builder web assistant14:18
Khertan_n810ping ?14:20
Khertan_n810infobot ?14:21
Khertan_n810~ping ?14:21
Khertan_n810pygtkeditor build ok ... should be available in few minutes in extras-devel repository14:23
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slonopotamusKhertan_afk, cool :)14:25
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X-Fadejeremiah: ping?14:25
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X-Fadejeremiah: Can you run a check on fremantle extras-devel to check if there are any libs which are also in the SDK and have a lower version than sdk?14:26
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lcukaol_, buld essential is ~80mb14:36
lcukthen ontop you need whichever -dev libs14:37
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* lcuk wiped out everything to fit it on14:37
lcukX-Fade, have noughty people been mucking about again, or is this an over zealous auto upgrade conversion14:38
Kinshuktimeless_mbp: qgil is from nokia india ?? i dnt see him arnd14:40
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Myrttihe's in Finland14:42
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Khertanwantan900back :)14:42
Khertanwantan900Someone with a working fremantle sdk can test PyGTKEditor and send me a screenshot if it works14:44
Khertanwantan900i would like to see the result :)14:44
lcukwouldnt it look the same14:44
Khertanwantan900maybe ... don t know :)14:45
lcukor have you made code editing finger friendly too :D14:45
Khertanwantan900nope ... i ve found a Maemo device with a 10" screen14:45
lcukhumans have macro zoom14:46
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lcukif you hold it close enough to your eye, it will rival even imax14:46
Khertanwantan900pygtkeditor can zoom too ...14:46
Khertanwantan900use your +/- keys14:47
Khertanwantan900it increase the font size :)14:47
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lcukmy +- keys are normally behind the screen in my crate14:47
timeless_mbpKinshuk: he's a public contact person who could give you the name of someone from nokia in india14:47
lcukbut yeah i saw that when i was using it14:47
Kinshuktimeless_mbp: wokay14:47
lcuktimeless, did you get any sleep14:47
Khertanwantan900skibur: you are late :)14:49
timeless_mbpa few hours14:49
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Khertanwantan900timeless: a few day if you count eldar "leaked" shot14:51
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timeless_mbpKhertanwantan900: wrong context14:52
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lbthmm, thinking back to the engineering prototypes... they were quite weighty14:54
lbtmaybe they should do a magnesium bodied one14:55
Khertanwantan900osso.context on PyGTKEditor on the fremantle sdk ? :)14:55
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lcuklbt, the smartq was lighter, but i didnt think "mmm this is heavy"14:56
lbtmaye dense is better14:57
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* SpeedEvil passes lbt a small helium balloon on a string.14:57
lbtthat'll do it14:58
lcuklbt, the smartq was *under* weight if anything14:58
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lcukfelt like it would blow away14:58
lcukhey thats a htought - mer brancded paper weights14:58
lbtnah, you need Gentoo installed to get that...14:58
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Khertanwantan900with 32Go ... the n900 will be really heavy15:16
VDVsxKhertanwantan900, 181g :P15:18
Khertanwantan900VDVsx: did you have look at the lcuk link ? :)15:20
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VDVsxKhertanwantan900, ah, ok, lolololol15:22
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LoCusFis there any word on when the Maemo 5 SDK final version comes?15:26
LoCusFMaemo summit perhaps at October?15:26
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andre__LoCusF, like always with Nokia: when it's ready ;-)15:26
LoCusFhehehehehhe :)15:27
pupniki cant read irssi yellow nicks15:28
LoCusFI've got red on black so not a problem :)15:30
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pupnikLoCusF - where change colors?15:31
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pupniki would like to do a study of color-blindness among foss devs15:33
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lcukpupnik, inkblot tests would be better15:51
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pupnikobviously color-blindness is fairly coömmon and isnt a personal fault.  but linux term coläors are a catastrophe16:05
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pupniki wonder if a typo tracker could be used to make better keyboards16:06
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Stskeepsdear god, not another ogg discussion16:06
javispedroyet another? :P16:07
Stskeepsi think it's excellent we get a device where we have the freedom to install ogg16:08
Stskeepsrequiring someone preinstall ogg is not very 'free'16:08
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kulveI guess I need to create fremantle version of the ogg-support..16:15
Stskeepsshouldn't be too difficult16:16
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Khertanwantan900does there is python binding to use the accelerometers ?16:27
Stskeepsprolly same as on a freerunner16:28
tigertKhertanwantan900: Attitude seems to be python16:30
tigertlook at it?16:31
X-Fadereads directly from sys entry iirc.16:31
tigertah ok16:31
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Khertanwantan900tigert ... not yet ...16:33
Khertanwantan900but i ll look16:33
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Khertanwantan900i ll ask a stupid question ... does there is speaker ...16:36
Khertanwantan900but of course ... it s a phone16:37
Khertanwantan900. . .16:37
Khertanwantan900. . . . .16:37
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LoCusFpupnik: ~/.irssi/config16:38
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* pupnik loks16:40
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Khertanwantan900 <-- interesting idea16:43
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L0cMini9will maemo5 be available on n8x0 ?16:47
zerojayIt doesn't have the hardware to support it.16:48
L0cMini9[15:47:52]      zerojay | No                                                                                                 │ akiniemi16:48
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*** Khertanwantan900 changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | N900 and Maemo 5 announced @ | | Maemo Community Council | | | Maemo Summit 2009: Call for Content Now Open! -> | Maemo Summit 2009: Registration now open - | Maemo 5 will not be available for n8x0"16:57
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Khertanwantan900this is the seventh or eighth time i read this question16:58
javispedrowill maemo5 be available for the 770?16:58
*** Khertanwantan900 changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | N900 and Maemo 5 announced @ | | Maemo Community Council | | | Maemo Summit 2009: Call for Content Now Open! -> | Maemo Summit 2009: Registration now open - | Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/n8x0/iPhone"16:59
javispedrowill Maemo5 be available for my 110V-powered toaster?17:00
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javispedroheh, ok, I'll stop.17:00
Khertanwantan900javispedro: yes ...17:00
pupniknokia owes me maemo5 on my psion too :)17:00
VDVsxI want it on my fridge !!!!17:00
Khertanwantan900if it s a beagle board powered17:00
Khertanwantan900toaster of course17:00
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Khertanwantan900but i don't think the cylon toaster cpu is compatible17:01
javispedroMaemo5 is only available in gadgets with the Apple^WN900 sticker, damnit.17:01
Razumihinwhat about my cars ECU-unit?17:01
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Meizirkkiprobably someone posted that already, but...17:15
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VDVsxah, the iPhone killer :P17:17
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Meizirkki^ I don't like apples strategies, but i would't shoot an iPhone17:18
ziyourenxiangwhat a sad individual17:19
ziyourenxiangmusic's not bad though17:19
lbtMeizirkki: now if it had been a Nokia in your breast pocket you'd have lived...17:20
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javispedroevery destroyed gadget makes me sad :(17:24
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Khertanwantan900does the diablo and chinook promoter is broken ?17:25
aol_iPhone is not bulletproof?!17:26
qwerty12_N810No, Apple refused an application in its app store that would have made it so17:27
aol_there's an app for that17:27
javispedrodman, I can't see the part where he burns it.17:27
javispedrotoo hard core.17:27
javispedro:'( poor iphone17:28
X-FadeKhertanwantan900: No?17:28
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VDVsxjavispedro, just for you:   ;)17:29
Khertanwantan900sorry X-Fade just my network which is extremelly slow17:30
aol_but yeah music on the video rules, arcade fire rulz :)17:30
Khertanwantan900if you didn't read my sentence 5 hours ago ... thanks again for the maemo web builder assistant ...17:30
X-FadeKhertanwantan900: I did. Thanks ;)17:31
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javispedroVDVsx, that guy is  _evil_. ;)17:34
VDVsxjavispedro, looks a nice fellow ;)17:34
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infobotVDVsx meant: javispedro, seems a nice fellow ;)17:35
thopiekarVDVsx: haha nice clip..17:36
thopiekarhopefully he won't do that with a brandnew N900 :D17:37
javispedroI wonder what would happen if he tried to blend his evil blending tool.17:37
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VDVsxthopiekar, I wouldn't doubt ;)17:38
thopiekaromg o.O'
thopiekarlol someone is selling N900 domains on ebay for 50k€ =D17:41
thopiekarstupid capitalistic world17:41, anyone? :)17:42
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VDVsxthopiekar, my favorite:
wazdoh, nokia already stolen it :D17:43
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wazdtoo bad for him that maemo is a tm :)17:44
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thopiekarVDVsx: =D17:44
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javispedrobah, here some idiot already registered yesterday.17:48
javispedroa pity it's not me the one spamming it ;P17:48
*** fr01b has left #maemo17:49 and still available ;)17:49
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ShellEvil another hijacker.17:50
*** setanta has joined #maemo17:50 is free :P17:50
X-FadeI'm sure he all thanks you for the link love :)17:51
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jeremiahX-Fade: pong - Will do!17:51
*** timeless_mbp has joined #maemo17:51 free! ;)17:51
X-Fadejeremiah: Can you only make a list? Not do the actual removal yet?17:51
zerojayI'm still pissed i couldn't get :(17:51
jeremiahX-Fade: Yes, I'll just make a litst17:51 :D17:51
jeremiahs/litst/list17:51 free!17:52
X-Fadejeremiah: Great thanks. I already removed an older version of zlib yesterday.17:52
jeremiahX-Fade: Ah okay.17:52
jeremiahI'll start the list now. Put it on the wiki somewhere . . .17:53 is free17:53
X-Fadejeremiah: Already started to hate my automated porting run for libs ;)17:53
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wazdI wonder if it's legal to make maemo subdomains17:53
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wazdlike for example17:53
jeremiahX-Fade: :]17:55
jeremiah  << I'll put the list of libs with lower version there (bottom of the page)17:55 - $300.000 :D17:55
wazdjezuzchrist :D17:56
jeremiah300 Bucks! Pirates17:56
X-Fadejeremiah: I'm going to create a pre-build check to prevent these entering the builder.17:57
wazddamn, I like design so much, wish I had such 3D skills :(17:58
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VDVsxwazd, you can always learn :)18:02
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wazdVDVsx: well, I have so much stuff to do, that I barely have time to sleep :)18:02
ShellEvil3d design is pretty much irrelevant in some ways.18:03
ShellEvilIn that you can't get the parts to make your own anyway.18:03
wazdVDVsx: I can't even finish with Blue Maemo, daywork blows my mind :(18:03
VDVsxwazd, nop18:03
wazdVDVsx: and OMWeather needs to be polished for the release :)18:04
VDVsxwazd, yeah, OM has priority, I'm waiting some info about maemo5 BT system yet, so not a rush ;)18:05
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guaxhello, i am almost buying a n810, can someone says me if it worth it?18:06
_berto_guax: depends on your needs/preferences, for me it's a great device18:07
_berto_guax: i use it everyday18:07
guaxbattery life. how it does? i was thinking in something to watch internet when a notebook is too large and watch videos18:07
_berto_i don't use it to watch videos a lot, but I tend to recharge it every 2-3 days18:08
ShellEvilI'd wait a bit - it's quite plausible that n810 will drop in price when 900 released18:09
_berto_what's the price of the n810 now anyway18:10
guaxi will pay about $35018:10
guaxfor a new one in brazil18:10
_berto_USD or BRL ? :)18:11
guax350 USD18:11
guaxi made a conversion =P18:11
_berto_I thought it would be cheaper by now18:11
_berto_I think I paid 400-something EUR a year and a half ago18:12
guaxdoes it have a good integrated google calendar agenda?18:13
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thopiekarVDVsx: found another great one :P
_berto_guax: no built-in agenda18:15
guaxif i can install a good one, thats not the problem =P18:15
_berto_I never used one :)18:16
till-my father got a new n810 from amazon for around 195 euro some month ago18:16
_berto_350 USD is around 240 EUR18:16
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_berto_the n800 is probably much cheaper if you can find one18:17
till-interesting, thats the current price at amazon18:17
_berto_but the keyboard in the n810 is a must for me18:17
guaxif i buy one in amazon the import tax will make it cost 292 USD18:18
guaxoops, euro18:18
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_berto_guax: and probably with an english keyboard ;)18:18
till-is there no amazon in brazil?18:18
till-or something similar?18:18
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guaxthats where im buying it from18:18
_berto_but do amazon ship electronic devices overseas?18:18
_berto_because the tablets are always much cheaper there than in europe18:19
till-i got my n800 two years ago from ebay, 195 euro18:19
VDVsxthopiekar, heheh18:20
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Khertanwantan900bye ...18:31
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thuxany guess how expensive n900 will be?18:44
jeremiah500 US18:44
jeremiahSorry, 550 Euros18:45
X-Fadethux: Depends on where you are.18:45
GAN800500 is the announced price, actually.18:45
X-FadeYeah, but that is before operator subsidies.18:45 had/has it for 599 EUR incl. VAT18:45
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aol_I guess many of us don't buy their phones with contract18:46
X-Fadeaol_: I always do because then they are free/almost free.18:46
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jeremiahIn sweden it is going for 6,295.00 SEK18:47
jrochahi, anyone here from the pymaemo team?18:47
thuxdoesn't sound too bad18:47
aol_X-Fade: you must also calculate how much the contract is18:47
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X-Fadeaol_: Sure, but a sim only contract isn't much cheaper.18:47
aol_well atleast for me it is18:47
aol_but again, I'm in Finland so ...18:47
jeremiahWow, in Sweden they are going to sell a white version too.18:48
jeremiahDidn't know there was one18:48
wazdjeremiah: link?)18:48
X-Fadejeremiah: Are you sure you aren't looking at an N97? :)18:48
wazdjeremiah: e900? :P18:48
aol_sim only you pay only two-tree euros monthly + the data plan ... so maybe 20eur/month with flatrate ... then choose any phone you like18:48
jeremiahoh sorry18:48
X-Fadejeremiah: as I said ;)18:48
jeremiahThat was the N9718:49
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jeremiahBut I clicked on the maemo, weird18:49
jeremiahtakes you to the N9718:49
jeremiahBait and switch18:50
*** Vulcanis has joined #maemo18:50 site still silent bout n900 :)18:50
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VDVsxjrocha, lizardo is the boss :), not here atm18:56
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jrochaVDVsx, I know that's why I asked  :)19:01
jrochaVDVsx, but thanks19:01
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GeneralAntillesrcadden wants to argue with my about my corrections.19:02
GeneralAntilleszerojay, the 10 awesome things article from that "guru".19:03
GeneralAntilles"Thanks for the corrections. However, these seem to contradict what I found on If you go there, you'll see that under browser, it highlights the Mozilla browser, and under Email it specifically mentions Nokia Messaging as the email client. I'll ping Nokia to get official clarification, though it's definitely confusing."19:03
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qwerty12_N810"so it's no surprise that we sort of discovered these nuggets of gold on our own."19:04
javispedrois becoming mainstream going to be fun or tedious? place your bets, ladies and gentleman.19:05
zerojayGott love the "guru"19:05
GeneralAntillesEspecially since it seems I wont even be able to participate in the first stage. :rolleyes:19:05
* GeneralAntilles finds he's no less bitter about things this morning.19:06
zerojayI'll save the bitter for the release.19:06
zerojayWasn't the dev program late for the n810?19:06
zerojayA month or two?19:06
GeneralAntillesAnnouncement was in August, ship was in November19:07
GeneralAntillesDev program was September/October-ish.19:07
javispedroI love how maemo-guru uses the logo.19:07
javispedro"rather than the Microb browser we’re used to on previous editions of Maemo, Nokia was smart enough to put a Mozilla browser on board". yes, this gets a bit on the nerves.19:08
javispedroalso, he continually mentions "older versions of Maemo5"19:09
GeneralAntillesand "Maemo5"19:09
Andy80GeneralAntilles: let's hope to have news about developers discount soon19:10
GeneralAntillesLet's hope we have something.19:10
GeneralAntillesI'm going to turn into zerojay-from-6-month-ago soon.19:10
Andy80GeneralAntilles: why?19:12
GeneralAntillesAndy80, because I'm tired.19:12
Andy80GeneralAntilles: tired of what :) ? of waiting?19:12
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GeneralAntillesNokia, the platform, the waiting, the delays, the screw ups, the attitudes.19:12
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Andy80this time it doesn't look like we had any delays...19:13
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GeneralAntillesAndy80, the whole reason they canned Elephanta was to move Fremantle up by about 6 months.19:13
GeneralAntillesNow, somehow, we're back on the original schedule.19:14
zerojayI dont know about Gen, but it sometimes feels like we're running in mud waist deep.19:14
Andy80GeneralAntilles: uhmm... sorry, don't know about "Elephanta" :(19:14
GeneralAntillesAndy80, that was the planned Maemo release for the end of 2008.19:14
GeneralAntillesTo run on OMAP3 hardwase and be architecturally similar to Diablo.19:14
GeneralAntillesWhich was cancelled in favor of advancing Fremantle by about half a year.19:15
Andy80GeneralAntilles: and... aren't you happy with this?19:15
Andy80I do prefer they make Fremantle to advance19:15
BluesLeeGeneralAntilles: is Fremantle far away from the other maemo distros?19:15
GeneralAntillesAndy80, problem is, that advanced ship date would've been around June.19:16
GeneralAntillesNow it's October19:16
GeneralAntillesWhich puts us right back where we started.19:16
GeneralAntillesThus, delays.19:16
GeneralAntillesBluesLee, Fremantle is a big upgrade over Diablo.19:16
BluesLeeGeneralAntilles: what about the freely available apps on, will they also run on Fremantle or do they need to be re-compiled?19:18
GeneralAntillesBluesLee, a lot of them have already been recompiled.19:18
zerojayAnd adapted to the fremantle ui.19:19
BluesLeeGeneralAntilles: okay, i think the n900 is the right device for me (coming from zaurus, openmoko)19:19
BluesLeeoctober isnt so far away:-)19:20
X-FadeIt is too soon! :)19:20
zerojayGeneral, maybe they'll hand out boxes at summit.19:20
BluesLeeX-Fade: you mean that it is not ready?19:21
GeneralAntilleszerojay, who cares?19:21
GeneralAntillesI wont even be able to properly use the thing.19:21
X-FadeBluesLee: I mean that I still need to do a lot ;)19:21
BluesLeeX-Fade: what are you doing in detail?19:21
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BluesLeeX-Fade: sorry, i am new to this channel and i dont know anything about the community structure, is there a kind of "who-is-who"?19:22
X-FadeBluesLee: Making sure that the 3rd party apps that end up in Extras work without problems basically ;)19:22
zerojayHeh.. Not really.19:23
BluesLeeX-Fade: i see19:23
X-FadeJust kidding about the too soon of course.19:24
X-FadeAlthough now _we_ as a community have a deadline too!19:24
X-FadeIn making sure the Fremantle apps are ready for the first consumers.19:24
zerojayIf their ip address ends in .fi, important. ;)19:24
javispedrowithout testing on device. good luck :)19:26
X-Fadejavispedro: Well, yeah as ready as we can be.19:26
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X-Fadelol ;)19:41
GeneralAntillesHis "corrections" just reveal yet more ignorance and idiocy.19:41
X-FadeWhere did that come from?19:41
GeneralAntillesThe aside about MicroB.19:42
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Seems to be down for me.19:42
orangeyhey all!19:42
qwerty12_N810GeneralAntilles: "Nokia-branded". ROFL.19:42
Sho_Anyone remember the name(s) of the other Nokia phone(s) that had the stand around the camera like on the N900?19:42
orangeyany idea if one can use syncevolution to sync seqretary?19:42
orangeyor if seqretary can take ICS?19:42
Sho_ah, the N86 8MP19:43
Sho_thanks GeneralAntilles19:43
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* zerojay Picard facepalm19:43
* GeneralAntilles hits the road.19:45
GeneralAntillesLater, all.19:45
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* ShadowJK shakes his head at tmo19:51
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orangeycan syncevolution sync with a gpe calendar?19:54
andre__afaik gpe does not use a evolution database?19:55
andre__hence i'd say no. not sure, though19:55
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Khertan_n810Hi again20:09
Khertan_n810did you see a way to optimize this things :
Khertan_n810it s pretty slow on the nit20:10
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lcukKhertan_n810, if you use the sin/cos values very often20:10
guest_007hi, does pidgin 2.5.8 support icq? cant get it work20:10
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lcukbuild and store an array of them for each degree20:10
lcukie sinarray(360)20:10
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Khertan_n810it use it very often20:11
lcuk(you only need 1/8 of a circle in reality..)20:11
lcukbut thats the principle optimization technique for things like that20:11
Khertan_n810it s a good idea i will try20:11
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guest_007anyone use pidgin with icq?20:12
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slonopotamusguest_007, yep, on drsktop20:13
infobotslonopotamus meant: guest_007, yep, on desktop20:13
guest_007slonopotamus: i thought that it's a maemo channel20:14
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crashanddieguest_007: the channel can be of whatever it wants, the matter of fact is that this still is IRC, so off-topic is the only recurrent topic ;)20:19
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guest_007Anyone heard about N900 run times? It uses the same battery with bigger cpu20:22
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guest_007Joystick like in sony PS and N900 is the best console )20:23
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ShellEvil'bigger CPU' can be misleading.20:25
ShellEvilA faster CPU - if not used 100% - in some cases may be more energy efficient than a slower CPU going 100%20:25
orangeybest to think of it as a car the same size that goes faster20:25
andre__anybody knows if tim has a jabber account? if so, can some one /msg the ID?20:25
andre__email fails badly today :-(20:25
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guest_007will skype be video?20:29
ShellEvilWill it have smell?20:30
guest_007hmm. will it be wet?20:30
Jaffaandre__: I'm not aware of one. His outbound emails are really badly formed (bad envelope and no return-path) so my box had been treating them as mailer-daemon errors20:30
pupnik_advanced backlight control should replace brightness/volume and allow setting dimming settings20:30
andre__Jaffa, oh... and I cannot send any email to him, I get a 550.20:31
* Jaffa wishes Modest worked more nicely with gmail (e.g. delete , archive, search and spam)20:31
JaffaForking Modest is probably not high on my todo list20:32
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Woollywhat's crackin20:34
VDVsxandre__, use facebook :P lolol20:34
andre__VDVsx, laugh at me, but that's what i did already yesterday to contact him.20:35
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VDVsxandre__, he did the same to contact me ;)20:35
andre__VDVsx, thanks, that makes me feel like i'm not the only idiot here :-P20:35
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VDVsxJaffa, modest is awesome ;)20:37
* Stskeeps ponders idly if 'i'm never going back' in n900 video refers to symbian or iphone ;p20:38
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Woollyit's busy in here tonight20:40
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crashanddieWoolly: I hope that's ironic20:43
Woollycrashanddie: indeed :)20:43
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gomiamerm... the ignorant one is back... Maemo 5 supports multitouch, right?20:58
Stskeepstwo is multi..20:58
gomiamStskeeps: does the N900 have a multitouch screen?20:58
slonopotamustwo != multi21:02
Stskeepsmultitasking is doing one than one task at a time..21:03
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slonopotamusyeah, but you can have N outstanding tasks21:03
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slonopotamusnot 2 :)21:04
Stskeepssure, but there's a limit to how many fingertips you can fit on a iphone ;)21:04
guest_007I filled all my internal memory space. How to extend it with /media/mmc2 ?21:04
guest_007aah your porn!21:05
ShellEvilsorry - mischan21:05
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slonopotamusguerby, find ~ -name *porn* -exec mv {} /media/mmc1 \;21:06
infobotslonopotamus meant: guest_007, find ~ -name *porn* -exec mv {} /media/mmc1 \;21:06
guest_007better -type porn21:06
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slonopotamusShellEvil, -.-21:07
guest_007onyone tryed encrypted root fs? :)21:07
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esaym153are there any other mapping programs for the n810? The default one seems to be missing alot of roads....21:21
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wiretappedesaym153: use maemo mapper21:22
wiretappedit can use several different map sources21:22
esaym153is that installed by default?21:23
wiretappedit is in maemo-extras though21:23
wiretappedyeah, but you should install it thru maemo extras21:23
wiretappedin your application manager, enable that repo if you haven't already21:23
esaym153ok, so then where to get better maps? Pay money? lol21:24
wiretappedmaemo mapper uses google, open street map, microsoft maps, and others21:24
wiretappedall free21:24
alex-weejanyone know roughly when n900 is going on sale in UK? my phone died today and i want either an android phone or maemo 5 but i don't wanna be waiting months21:25
esaym153google and open street maps require internet connection right?21:25
wiretappedthey're bitmaps though, unlike the builtin maps program which has vectors...21:25
andre__alex-weej, october21:25
alex-weejandre__: thanks!21:25
andre__esaym153, not if you download those map parts you will need with maemo mapper first.21:26
esaym153andre__: yea I am seeing:
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andre__esaym153, that looks a bit... outdated.21:28
* esaym153 looks for online tutorial...21:29
andre__esaym153, what is your issue with maemo mapper?21:29
andre__why don't you try it?21:29
wiretappedesaym153: maemo mapper can auto-download all the map tiles in an area or along a given route21:29
esaym153andre__: you mean just install it and go for it?21:29
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esaym153wiretapped: amazing!21:29
* esaym153 delete default maps and gets after it21:30
andre__esaym153, i don't know why you continue searching for apps without trying what's available in maemo already21:30
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esaym153hmm think I will scp the maps before I delete them...21:30
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wiretappedgood call21:30
esaym153andre__: just asking questions so I don't waste time21:30
esaym153I was going to check to forums, but I need to leave in 30 minutes..21:31
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wiretappedif you're in a hurry you should get off the floor21:31
Stskeepsi wonder who'll be the first insane people to port Diablo to N900.21:31
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ShellEvilI will note that the google TOS do not permit downloading and caching.21:33
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wiretappedShellEvil: oh noes21:37
Stskeepsjust use OSM21:37
ShadowJKdiablo port to N900 sounds awesome ;)21:38
lcukit doesnt sound too bad actually.  would be a lot of work just to keep "maemo-select-location" lol21:39
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wiretappedOSM is awesome; there was a good interview with Steve Coast about it a few weeks ago on floss weekly:
ShellEvilOSM is indeed awesome.21:40
ShellEvilThe progress year by year is astounding.21:41
wiretappedOSM is much more awesome in the US now that they have tiger data21:41
ShellEvilVery debatably awesome.21:41
ShellEvilThe tiger data in many ways is shit.21:41
ShellEvilIt's complete - but it's got lots of errors.21:41
johnsqYou you look if your girl friend is in bikini :)21:42
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wiretappedyeah sometimes something is worse than nothing, but generally not21:42
aol_anybody done OSM tile maps to their apps ?21:42
ShellEvilIt is generally topologically accurate - the right roads are there - connected in the right ways.21:42
aol_anybody here I mean21:42
ShellEvilBut they can be _wierdly_ distorted.21:42
ShellEvilAnd until recently the freeway network was _totally_ broken. It's now only slightly broken.21:42
ShadowJKMaybe they aren't WGS8421:42
ShellEvilShadowJK: no - nothing like that.21:43
ShellEvilShadowJK: take an accurate streetmap.21:43
ShellEvilShadowJK: now randomly bend it and twist it into wierd shapes.21:43
ShadowJKhm :)21:43
ShellEvilYou now have tiger in some areas.21:43
ShadowJKI for one wouldn't mind paying for an accurate map21:43
ShadowJKbut nobody has one21:43
ShellEvilI suspect some of it was taken manually - with rough positions - and only intended to be topologically acurate - not actually accurate positions.21:44
ShadowJKNokia Maps and Wayfinder disagree by about a kilometre in worst case when I used both last week :)21:44
wiretappedas discussed in floss81, nobody has one with reasonable license terms. Lots of people will sell you maps though :)21:44
ShellEvilI was working on some housing in el-paso. (correcting tiger to yahoo imagery) - the errors are _wierd_.21:44
ShadowJKWhat's amusing is that if I was going to RoadABC XXX, I often got closer to XXX by just using the car's odometer instead of wayfinder or nokia maps' idea of how far down XXX would be21:45
derfRight. I don't object to paying for a map. I object to subscribing to one with via a monthly fee.21:45
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ShadowJKThis might be because the people who designated the numbers used a car too, but I dunno :)21:46
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ShellEvilI have no idea why OSM seems insanely popular in germany.21:46
ShellEvilThere hasn't even been a massive data import there.21:46
ShellEvilBut it's pretty complete.21:47
derfNormally when you mark property lines someone does an actual survey.21:47
ShadowJKIt seemed usefully complete when I was in germany21:47
ShadowJKNot like here where entire towns are missing21:47
ShellEvilShadowJK: when?21:47
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ShadowJKJuly this summer21:47
ShellEvilyeah - it's come on lots.21:48
ShellEvilA widespread device with nice GPS and camera could help lots.21:48
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ShellEvilYou wander around taking pictures of streetsigns/... and pretty soon you've got a map21:49
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Firebirderk, uploaded package to the wrong builder :o21:53
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roundyzI just got from watching three of the videos about the n900, wow!21:56
roundyzBut I  hve came here with a few Qs, so...21:57
roundyzmaemo is based on linux and gnome, yes?21:57
roundyzCan you get a terminal on it?21:58
Stskeepslet me just show you a blog post :)21:58
Firebirdxterm is installed out of the box roundyz21:58
roundyzor could Maemo be emulated through a vm so I can test it myself?21:58
roundyzFirebird: thanks...21:58
ShadowJKoh no, N900 doesn't have the tiny nokia charger plug anymore?21:59
tbfShadowJK: it got something better: a small usb port21:59
Firebird:/ I recently bought a nokia car charger21:59
ShadowJKYeah that's a royal pain, have to get new adapters and stuff22:00
ShadowJKand availability is still poor22:00
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slonopotamusso... it charges when plugged in desktop?22:02
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ShadowJKit probably comes with a charger22:02
mikkov_Firebird: you can get adapter for the old charger
roundyzIs there any pricing on the net yet, or is it too early?22:03
ShadowJKmikkov_, is that big plug to microusb?22:03
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ShadowJKI just tried with my E75, it doesn't charge just by giving it power over USB... needs actual computer on the other end :/22:03
mikkov_ShadowJK: yes, the actual product page says microusb22:03
mikkov_ShadowJK: that's an official nokia accessory, so it should work22:05
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J_Phi all22:05
ShadowJKI tried connecting official nokia cable between powered USB hub and phone22:05
ShadowJKit would only charge if there was a computer connected to the USB hub too, just power wasn't enough :)22:06
ShadowJKBut that adapter should work well22:06
J_Ppeople, a question about N900. N900 has really GPS receiver or just that GPS (AGPS) from celular localization?22:06
Stskeepsfull gps like n81022:06
Stskeepsprobably a hell lot better though22:06
Firebirdoh, thanks mikkov_, that looks like the N810 USB cable22:06
derfWell, it would be hard to go in the other direction.22:06
esaym153installed maemo mapper, it says "seraching for gps" and then it stops searching and then starts searching again, repeat repeat... Been doing that for about 5 minutes I guess.  That normal? I have heard it takes awhile to first pair with satellites but not sure if that is what it is doing...22:06
StskeepsAGPS is not only celluar localization - it helps downloading almanacs and such22:06
J_PStskeeps: thanks, do you know what is receiver, may be the best start III ?22:07
ShadowJKesaym153, oh I had that once when gpsdriver had crashed22:07
J_PSiRFstar III22:07
J_PN900 use SiRFstar III?22:07
StskeepsJ_P: a good guess would be looking at the kernel configs, even though they might not match the final HW22:07
esaym153ShadowJK: not normal? The gps icon in the task bar keeps appearing and disappearing...22:08
ShadowJKnot normal22:08
esaym153dang, the fix?22:08
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Firebirdhmm, garage.maemo's terms of use is a 404:
ShadowJKI think I did /etc/init.d/gpsdriver restart22:09
ShadowJKbut you could just reboot the tablet I suppose22:09
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J_PShadowJK: do you have a n900?22:09
J_PShadowJK: ahh a lspci show devices to know what chipset is gps receiver22:10
J_Por a lshw22:10
ShadowJKThere is no PCI bus on these devices22:10
J_PShadowJK: so a lshw22:10
ShadowJKMy guess would be that the GPS is connected to a rs232 port22:11
J_PShadowJK: ahh internal (of course) connected via rs232.. right22:11
ShadowJKThat's how it is on N81022:12
J_Por just a chip (arm) that is a SoC with gps receiver together processor22:12
ShadowJKnot together with processor on n81022:13
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J_Pif N900 use SiRFstar III, is a goos gps receiver22:14
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Stskeepsi don't think it's sirf, but yeah22:19
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aol_I'm sure it's not sirf22:22
aol_nokia uses their own GPS22:22
J_Paol_: humm you know what is specifcation ?22:24
J_Paol_: or, is good as srf?22:24
aol_not nearly as good22:24
Stskeepswell, in n810 it was exceptionally crap22:24
Stskeepsi can only imagine they improved it :)22:25
ShellEvilIs it a NMEA output - or is it a software-aided GPS?22:25
ShadowJKaol_, I didn't even know they had their own gps22:25
StskeepsShadowJK: NMEA output according to specs22:25
ShellEvilRolling your own GPS is a lot easier these days.22:25
Stskeepserr, -> ShadowJK22:25
ShellEvilThere are lots of chipsets out there.22:25
aol_atleast S60 has NMEA output22:25
Stskeeps.. -> ShellEvil22:26
* Stskeeps fails.22:26
J_PStskeeps: why crap ? what's happen to be a crap ?22:26
johnsqStskeeps: time for bed?22:26
ShadowJKhm, what's the format that gpsd outputs?22:26
aol_Nokia does the GPS mostly in firmware22:26
aol_where sirf is complete chipset with processing22:27
Stskeepsjohnsq: can't. have to pack. moving tomorrow.22:27
aol_so that's why nokia can have GPS on virtually every phone over 80 euros22:27
ShellEvilThe downside for GPS - on host CPU - is that it's a binary blob.22:27
ShellEvilAt least often.22:27
ShellEvilWhich can have compatibility issues.22:27
ShadowJKNokia N95 seems to have a TI GPS chip22:28
Stskeepsso was n81022:28
ShellEvilThere are about 3 or 4 levels of 'software GPS'22:28
aol_yeah I have no idea on the details22:28
J_PShadowJK: if n900 has same gps receiver that n95, so is good..22:28
aol_but ofcourse they use _some_ chips, and they manufacture none them selves. but sirf is the complete route from antenna to NMEA output22:29
ShellEvilGoing all the way from a chip that only does the absolute bare minimum - and gives you an 18 megabit bitstream of samples - that you then have to extract all the information from. To chips that lock onto satellites on their own - and just output the semi-raw output.22:29
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ShellEvilThen you have chips which basically output completely cooked NMEA22:29
Woollydoes anyone here like soda?22:30
ShellEvilNot inside phones.22:30
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Luke-JrStskeeps: the N810 GPS is only crap because of the blob and (possibly) the antenna...22:31
Woollybecause of the blob22:31
Woollythat sounds like a cult 60's sci-fi classic22:31
johnsqWoolly: the bold wan't in the 80's?22:31
* ShellEvil sighs.22:32
Woollyoh it was actually a film22:32
* ShellEvil was involved in a project to opensource the blob in the Openmoko GTA01.22:32
ShellEvilWhich got to the point of detecting satellites and their approximate relative velocity.22:32
Luke-JrShellEvil: want to help with GPS5300 reveng? :þ22:33
ShellEvilAnd then stalled as it was announced that the same chip (which coincidentally is in the iphone) wasn't going to be in the GTA0122:33
johnsqWoolly: you are right 195822:33
Luke-JrJ_P: N810 had the same GPS chip as N95, but the blob makes it suck22:33
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Luke-JrShellEvil: TI GPS5300 is used in N810 and N9522:33
Woollyjohnsq: man that was some lucky guesswork :D22:33
ShellEvilLuke-Jr: not really - I was interested as I had one.22:33
J_PLuke-Jr: what is blob ?22:33
ShellEvilJ_P: a program with no sourcecode22:34
Woollyhas anyone heard of Galcos Soda Pop Stop?22:34
Luke-JrJ_P: a piece of ARM bytecode that nobody can work with22:34
J_Pclosed source...22:34
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ShadowJKAnyone remember the bluetooth chip used in N900?22:34
J_PSo, is not possible install a pure linux distro on n900, like as a debian/ubuntu for example?22:34
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ShellEvilLuke-Jr: Jesus - that's a _zero_ information spec-sheet.  (from TI)22:35
ShellEvilJ_P: the above discussion wasn't about 900 - AIUI22:36
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ShadowJK"as I understand it"22:36
J_PShellEvil: ahh sorry, is becouse you told me about closed source..22:36
StskeepsJ_P: best thing about maemo is that you can get rid of it. :)22:36
Stskeepsi can't promise all hw functionality will work though.22:37
WoollyStskeeps: what would you put on instead?22:37
Stskeepsin a fully open system22:37
J_PStskeeps: no, if chipsets works only wity closed source..22:37
StskeepsWoolly: there's different efforts on N8x0: gentoo, mer, etc..22:37
Stskeepswe had debian on n8x0 too22:37
Woollysweet :)22:38
Stskeepsn900 is probably just as hackable22:38
Woollydid mer spawn from a reaction to maemo?22:38
Stskeepsif you're thinking we got pissed, that's not how it was :)22:38
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WoollyStskeeps: was that in answer to my question?22:39
StskeepsWoolly: yeah22:39
WoollyStskeeps: ahh, pissed as in drunk?22:39
StskeepsWoolly: story is more along the lines of that we saw areas that needs change in maemo and decided to reconstruct the thing - using mostly maemo pieces22:39
WoollyStskeeps: cool :)22:40
J_PStskeeps: yout debian install on n810 works wireless and gps on debian?22:40
StskeepsJ_P: i don't have debian on my n810.22:40
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WoollyStskeeps: cheers22:40
Stskeepscomes with notes in the end22:40
Woollydoes Carsten Munk reside here at the moment?22:41
Stskeepsyeah, that's Luke-Jr22:41
* Stskeeps runs22:41
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Stskeeps(no, that's me.)22:41
Woollyoh, hullo :)22:41
woglindehi mrgoose22:41
MrGoosehi woglinde22:41
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Woollyso long as we can get rid of hildon, i'm happy :D22:42
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Stskeepsoh, we still use hildon, but in the long run we're going qt too22:42
MrGoosewoglinde: where do you order from this website (igep-platform)?22:42
Stskeepsyou might bash hildon but it does have a purpose in terms of power saving and mobile usage..22:43
wiretappedWoolly: what do you want to use instead of hildon?22:43
Stskeepsand there's a number of things wrong with it :)22:43
woglindemrgoose not yet22:43
woglindeI think next week it will start22:43
MrGoosewoglinde: ah okay22:44
Woollywiretapped: I have no opinion either way, I just dont particularly like it22:44
Stskeepsa desktop environment for laptops don't work well on a tablet, for instance :)22:45
WoollyStskeeps: agreed22:45
WoollyStskeeps: also, widgets = fail22:45
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Stskeepswidgets? they have a lot more purpose in n900 :P22:47
X-FadeWith the scrolling desktop, yes.22:48
X-FadeEven fullscreen widgets make sense now ;)22:48
* ShellEvil wishes trackpoints were available.22:48
ShellEviltrackpoint with little keyb would be killer.22:49
Luke-JrStskeeps: why do you hide that you *can't* have a fully open system on N8x0? :/22:49
Proteousget a blackberry22:49
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WoollyFullscreen widgets still make no sense to me22:50
wiretappedLuke-Jr: examples?22:50
StskeepsLuke-Jr: didn't we agree these discussions are pointless? :P22:50
wiretapped(of Stskeeps hiding that)22:50
Luke-Jrwiretapped: last page of chat?22:51
StskeepsLuke-Jr: i said explicitly that i can't promise all hw functionality will work.22:51
Luke-JrStskeeps: that implies it will work at all22:51
wiretapped< Stskeeps> i can't promise all hw functionality will work though.22:51
StskeepsLuke-Jr: do you have the source for your BIOS?22:51
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Stskeepsif not, at this point we stop the conversation22:52
Luke-JrStskeeps: what BIOS? EFI?22:52
Stskeepswhatever gets your computer to boot sector22:52
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Luke-JrI think so, yes. ☺22:52
* konttori just uploaded *real* transitioncontrol
konttoriprevious version was just fake22:52
wiretappedLuke-Jr: fwiw I for one really appreciate your complaints :)22:52
Stskeepsdo you really? :P give me specification of the motherboard you use at this exact moment :)22:52
konttorithis allows all transitions to be tuned nicely in one interface22:53
wiretappedbut I also really appreciate Stskeeps' work on mer, and don't think it is fair to say he's "hiding" something in the above exchange22:53
Luke-JrStskeeps: I'm not referring to that computer I'm using at this exact moment. ☺22:53
Luke-JrStskeeps: I'm referring to my EFIKA box22:53
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: i am. and i'm wondering why you're complaining about that you can't put a open system on your device - while you can. NOLO and X-Loader is closed source, yes - but at that point a linux kernel takes over22:54
Stskeepsof your own selection22:54
Luke-JrStskeeps: BME22:54
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: the interfaces for retu chips are documented by community22:54
konttorinice to see that canola is being uploaded to fremantle22:55
suihkulokkidoes the mytube developer hang out here?22:55
konttoriand pyside as well22:55
sivangGood UTC+2 evening!22:55
Luke-JrStskeeps: if the battery won't charge, it's not really usable22:55
sivangI've follosed the SDK installation docs,22:55
sivangbut when I try to start the UI I get:22:55
wiretappedkonttori: any ETA on theme specs being public?22:55
StskeepsLuke-Jr: i might be wrong, but it is entirely possible to feed your N810 through DC.22:55
konttoriwiretapped: I'll put them out tomorrow22:56
sivangactually before that, there seem to be a problem with the installation -22:56
konttoriJust need to blog it really.22:56
suihkulokkisivang: you should use universal greeting time :P22:56 is not in the path22:56
Luke-JrStskeeps: if you have to modify the hardware, does that really count? ;)22:56
sivangand the etc folder didn't seem to mount correctly inside the chroot22:56
StskeepsLuke-Jr: afaik no modification needed22:56
wiretappedis the latest hildon-theme-tools available?22:56
sivangsuihkulokki: I should :)22:56
konttoriwiretapped: no clue22:56
konttoriI never use theme toold22:56
Luke-JrStskeeps: replacing the battery with DC input is a modification..22:56
konttorijust theme maker22:56
konttoriI suspect the old tools should work22:57
johnsqStskeeps: i didn't boot without battery iirc22:57
StskeepsLuke-Jr: not really. different power source22:57
wiretappedbut we need the new template..22:57
konttorijust need the new cut files.22:57
Woollyevery time I come in here, I seem to start a fight :(22:57
Stskeepsthis is just friday night ;)22:57
* Stskeeps passes Woolly the popcorn22:57
sivangthis is what I get when I try to run the script from /targets/FREMANTLE_ARMEL/usr/bin/af-init-sb.sh22:57
Luke-Jranyhow, I think we need a channel for an open handheld platform :þ22:57
sivangAF Warning: '/etc/osso-af-init/osso-gtk.defs' not found22:57
sivang/targets/FREMANTLE_ARMEL/usr/bin/ line 112: /etc/osso-af-init/osso-gtk.defs: No such file or directory22:58
Luke-Jrsince apparently porting Linux to other handhelds is considered an insult to Nokia here22:58
WoollyLuke-Jr: was open moko not totally open?22:58
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Luke-JrWoolly: I suppose, but I heard it didn't work either22:58
zerojayWe have fight club here on fridays.22:58
Luke-JrWoolly: and it's not very useful without a keyboard22:58
WoollyLuke-Jr: yes, that's what I heard too22:58
sivangcould anybody give a hand for someone who is depsperatly wanting to see the UI in action ? :)22:58
Luke-JrSmartQ is totally open, but it lacks cell connectivity and again no kb22:59
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X-FadeLuke-Jr: Dude, really. There are bigger and more interesting fights to pick.22:59
* Stskeeps personally doesn't mind paying less money for a handheld device cos of blobs.22:59
* konttori can show @ nokiaworld ui in action22:59
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, it supports cellular data if you buy the modem too, but not voice afaik22:59
Luke-JrX-Fade: why is it automatically a fight to want a working free handheld?22:59
ShadowJKthe Q7 does, iirc22:59
Luke-JrShadowJK: really?22:59
StskeepsLuke-Jr: usb host with sufficient juice in Q723:00
Luke-Jroh, external USB...23:00
X-FadeLuke-Jr: Be realistic a bit. This is the best piece of kit anyone can get at the moment.23:00
fiferboy_sivang: Are you running that command from within the X86 scratchbox rootstrap?23:00
Stskeepsthere's HW hacks to make it internal, too23:00
Luke-JrX-Fade: realisticly, that Samsung OmniaPro looks nice23:00
ShadowJKBut on touchbook you could have it internal without hacks :)23:00
X-FadeLuke-Jr: Then buy that and see how it does in 2 years?23:00
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: saw the omapzoom 2?23:00
Luke-JrStskeeps: no?23:01
sivangfiferboy_: I do /scratcbox/login , and then get the ARMEL prompt23:01
WoollyI wish I was a little bit taller23:01
Stskeepssince you don't seem to mind paying the premium for more open stuff..23:01
Luke-JrX-Fade: one person can't make a successful port23:01
sivangWoolly: wish I was a baller23:01
fiferboy_sivang: You need to run sb-menu and go to "select" and select FREMANTLE_X8623:01
X-FadeLuke-Jr: Well, don't complain here. Trolling won't give you a lot of volunteer either ;)23:01
Luke-JrStskeeps: premium? SmartQ are cheaper, and OmniaPro looks at least about hte same as n900 price23:01
Woollysivang: wish I had a girl who looked good so I could call her23:01
Luke-JrX-Fade: I'm not complaining, I'm inviting :þ23:01
StskeepsLuke-Jr: smartq is cheaper but honest to god it's not as quality..23:02
sivangfiferboy_: I'll try , I run that from the regular shell or from the scratchbox/login ?23:02
lcukLuke-Jr, piss off.  a determined coder could do practically anything in 2 years.23:02
fiferboy_after /scratchbox/login23:02
Stskeepswifi chips really shouldn't fall out of their sockets..23:02
fiferboy_^ sivang23:02
Luke-Jrlcuk: that wasn't the point at all -.-23:02
sivangfiferboy_: k, let's try  - thanks23:02
ShellEvilSure - if they are willing to spend a few thousand hours...23:02
lcukyou said it wasnt possible23:02
StskeepsLuke-Jr: , click the buy banner23:02
* suihkulokki wonders who pissed into Luke-Jr's friday beer23:02
fiferboy_sivang: Also, make sure you agreed to the EULA and installed the nokia-binaries packages23:02
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zerojayLuke, are you helping to write free replacements for the blobs?23:02
X-FadePeople waste too much time talking, and not doing.23:03
sivangfiferboy_: -binaries is installed, and agreed to the EULA23:03
Stskeepszerojay: that said, he is23:03
Stskeepsor at least patches23:03
Luke-Jrlcuk: I said "can't", which could just as well mean "not practical"23:03
X-FadePick something you want to improve and have a go at it.23:03
sivangfiferboy_: chose it, it said "hangup"23:03
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sivangfiferboy_: and exited its ncurses UI23:03
fiferboy_sivang: You have to install the binaries in the X86 environment after you switch to it23:03
lcukLuke-Jr, its entirely practical23:03
ShadowJKis omniapro something newer than omniahd?23:03
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slonopotamuslcuk, it's23:03
WoollyI want to improve the wiiremote control stuff, are the project admins about?23:03
sivangfiferboy_: so now I need to relogin, and sudo apt-get install nokia-binaries ?23:03
lcuk:| slono23:04
sivangrelogin = /scratchbox/login23:04
slonopotamuslcuk, :P23:04
Luke-JrStskeeps: the problem is TI keeps OMAP specs closed, afaik23:04
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Woollyevening javis23:04
lcukLuke-Jr, then do it with existing kit23:04
suihkulokkimany single people have ported linux to winmo/palm handhelds in less than year23:04
lcukand make it work23:04
StskeepsLuke-Jr: sigh.. :P23:04
fiferboysivang: Re-login and then switch toe X86 should work23:04
suihkulokkitrouble is, they usually get bored with the project when they get userland running :P23:04
ShadowJKOmnia and OmniaHD seem to have MSRP of about 600 and 650 compared to N900 MSRP of 500 :)23:04
Luke-Jrsuihkulokki: you're including all the hardware in that?23:05
lcuksuihkulokki, scratching an itch23:05
StskeepsLuke-Jr: AFAIK samsung's are just as closed, ignoring the leaked docs23:05
javispedrosuihkulokki, possibly because then people start complaining about horrid battery life, nil wi-fi performance (or inexistant) instead of cheering at the videos of kernel logs on lcd.23:05
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GAN800Stskeeps, +123:05
Luke-JrStskeeps: I like leaked docs that I have no legal restrictions on implementing.23:05
sivangfiferboy: oh chees, I need to do the same setup on the X86 target23:05
fiferboysivang: Yes.  You can copy the line from your ARMEL sources.list23:06
StskeepsLuke-Jr: you'd be much better off on X86 it sounds like..23:06
Stskeepsbecause yes, that platform hw is documented ..23:06
X-FadeLuke-Jr: Let's have a game. You start with that Samsung and you let Stskeeps do his Mer thing. Then we come back next year on this date and compare how far you both got.23:06
slonopotamusLuke-Jr, why arm at all, btw?23:06
javispedrox86, documented?23:06
Luke-Jrslonopotamus: because ARM is most common?23:06
Luke-JrX-Fade: Stskeeps has more free time23:06
Stskeepserr.. no23:07
lcukX-Fade, not fair, stskeeps has already spent a year proving Luke-Jr's assumption wrong23:07
X-FadeLuke-Jr: Excuses already.23:07
slonopotamusLuke-Jr, so what? just recompile for different cpu23:07
lcukand look at oh how far he has come!23:07
suihkulokkiLuke-Jr: that varied ofcourse, most pda's never got all drivers, but many did (in the javispedro style:P)23:07
StskeepsX-Fade: not too fair, we have Mer running on the smartq already :P23:07
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Luke-Jrslonopotamus: I'm not picky about ARM. It just happens to be in most everything.23:07
lcukthen it should be easy to work towards23:08
lcukeven without specs23:08
ShadowJKThe chinese MIPS laptops are open enough even for Stallman to use :P23:08
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suihkulokkiyou can also grab a sheevaplug for a 100% free sw arm hardware :)23:09
* ShadowJK has a sheevaplug already :)23:09
fiferboyGAN800: Are you spear-heading the "We need developer devices, damn it!" movement?23:09
lcukLuke-Jr, would have a sheeva plug, but he couldnt because the box wasnt open when he looked23:09
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Luke-Jrlcuk: troll23:10
roundyzhow does vi work without esc key? do you do ctrl+[ ?23:10
ShadowJKlcuk, the box it came in is very nice :)23:10
GAN800fiferboy, I'm spearheading the "I don't care anymore if I can't get 3G" movement.23:10
lcukis that a +5 troll tho :p23:10
ShadowJKit has a proper lid and all23:10
fiferboyGAN800: Are you with AT&T?23:10
Luke-Jrlcuk: -1223:10
johnsqroundyz: yes, or map esc to another key23:10
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suihkulokkiShadowJK: but it was locked box.. >:-( with a magnet :P23:11
johnsqroundyz: error esc is on the n81023:11
roundyzI was looking at the n900, sorry.23:11
GAN800fiferboy, two iPhones on my family plan and no T-Mobile 3G coverage here.23:11
roundyzI didn't see a esc key there.23:11
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Stskeepsxterm has it23:11
fiferboyGAN800: That sucks.  You could still get EDGE :)23:11
GAN800fiferboy, yeah, I used EDGE for two years.23:12
Luke-Jrwell if anyone want's to be positive about possibly making a nice Mer/Gentoo/etc port for OmniaPro or some other handheld, let's use #FreeHandheld for it?23:12
GAN800Not gonna work with stuff like Ovi Maps on the device.23:12
konttorican somebody move xchat to fremantle extras from diablo?23:13
konttorithe package works just perfectly from diablo.23:13
X-Fadeno, sorry.23:14
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X-Fadewell, can, but won't.23:15
Stskeeps front page is funny23:15
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johnsqStskeeps: *lol*23:15
suihkulokkiDespite of being samsung device, according to unreliable internet forumss OmniaPro has marvell pxa3xx23:15
X-FadeStskeeps: heh ;)23:16
Luke-Jrsuihkulokki: wrong model23:16
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Luke-JrStskeeps: is that page FUD? N900 processor is more powerful how?23:16
GAN8001Changing tabs too fast in XChat causes a wd reset, qwerty12.23:16
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: no, i don't think it's FUD23:17
javispedroso, let me understand this. guy opens page about omnia, installs forum software, gets some registered users... then tells everyone he's closing shop because he does not want omnia pro?23:17
suihkulokkiLuke-Jr: do you have link to correct specs?23:17
Stskeepsjavispedro: chippy from umpcportal .. he isn't a troll :)23:18
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Luke-Jrsuihkulokki: add B7610 to search23:18
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: is there any devices, at all, that lives up to your high standards, btw?23:19
Luke-JrStskeeps: the OmniaPro I mentioned seems like it could23:20
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: how? it's a windows mobile device with probable closed source boot loader, and you'll have to use HaReT to boot your kernel? :P23:21
Luke-JrStskeeps: how is that a problem?23:21
Luke-JrStskeeps: s3c6410 SoC23:21
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StskeepsLuke-Jr: yes, but that really doesn't help on the associated hw chips23:22
Luke-JrStskeeps: I figure the 3D accel is the biggest/most complex bit23:22
Stskeeps6410 says nothing about battery, telephony, sound, gps, or even touchscreen23:22
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Stskeepsso how on .. earth is that better? :P23:22
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ShadowJKin practical terms it's less useful than N810 then :)23:23
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Luke-JrStskeeps: also of interest is the HTC Touch Pro, which has an existing Linux port :þ23:23
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, oh do you know what works and what doesn't on that?23:24
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Luke-Jrand a really nice looking kb23:24
GAN800Double ugh23:24
javispedrowell, the Palm T|X also has a Linux port. want my fried one? :P23:24
StskeepsLuke-Jr: did you ever check the xda-developer sites for status on the ports? :P23:24
ShadowJKI would think that HTC Dream would be a better place to start... atleast it has mostly working framebuffer already :)23:24
Luke-JrStskeeps: I think something like that came out of Googel23:25
Luke-JrShadowJK: TP2 does too IIRC23:25
StskeepsLuke-Jr: just because it's android it doesn't mean you'd have all source needed..23:25
Luke-JrStskeeps: no?23:26
Luke-Jrcan always report GPL violations23:26
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javispedrowhat GPL Violation? android is apache license23:27
Luke-Jrjavispedro: Android doesn't use Linux for its kernel?23:27
javispedrooh, expect simple passthrough kmod then 1 MiB user space app23:27
Luke-JrLinux is always GPL-223:27
javispedromuch like the N810 GPS situation I guess.23:27
pH5Luke-Jr: much of the interesting stuff is running on the ARM9 part on the qualcomm chips, which is as closed as it gets.23:27
Woollychocolate time23:28
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javispedrospecially since Android is using OpenBinder (so they have cheap system-wide ipc) .23:28
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javispedroheh. I just had a Déjà vu.23:29
Luke-Jroh well23:29
suihkulokkiadmittedly the linux handhelds people did ports were much more simpler devices23:29
suihkulokkiI remember being happy finging a pda with wifi *and* bluetooth23:30
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* Woolly has chocolate :)23:33
* lcuk has bacon23:33
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* Woolly hates bacon23:33
lcukall the more for me!23:33
woglindehaha bacon23:33
Woollybacon is nocab spelt backwards23:34
javispedrono cab for you then23:34
* slonopotamus has beer23:34
lcuki do 223:35
slonopotamusonly two? full fridge here :D23:35
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Woollytime to update Colloquy23:36
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ShadowJKI wish I had 3G coverage so that the typical GSM interference in audio equipment would go away :(23:36
* ShellEvil has hot bath.23:37
* ShellEvil wants bluetooth optical submersible mouse.23:37
* Woolly had irn bru23:37
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Woollymuch better23:39
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J_Pmaemo5 in N900 is qt or gtk?23:42
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Robot101and hildon, which is extra widgets and framework on top of them23:42
Woollywidgets blargh23:42
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J_Pwell, but with nokia with trolltech next maemo will be qt... this is obvious...23:44
javispedronot so obvious. see novell.23:45
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J_Pjavispedro: what has novell?23:45
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J_Pjavispedro: and ?23:46
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javispedrotraditionally a KDE distro, but Novell already had Ximian23:46
javispedro(a gnome company afaik)23:46
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J_Pbut novell bouth a toolkit.. so.. is diferent..23:47
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J_Pnokia bouth23:47
khertanHi again ...23:47
woglindehi khertan23:48
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khertanSomeone know why python2.5-osso isn't available in the fremantle repository and python-osso is in23:48
pH5hmm, tpa6130a2 headphone amplifier. I hope that means decent SNR on the headphone plug.23:48
khertanhi woglinde23:48
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Stskeepskhertan: new packaging in fremantle AFAIK23:49
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Stskeepscloser to debian packaging23:49
khertanhum ...23:49
khertanactually things is mixed between python2.5-* and python-*23:49
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woglindehm maybee some here has a hint23:50
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khertanand so this mean that i need to do different package for diablo and fremantle23:50
khertansnif ...23:50
Stskeepskhertan: it's really for the better in the long run :P23:50
khertani'm not sure23:51
jeremiahWell, you shouldn't have to change so many things for simple packages.23:51
woglindein python I need a sane way to stop a thread from threading which has a loop-method which only breaks at keyboardInterrupt23:51
jeremiahThe entire packaging format has not changed.23:51
khertanwoglinde: you can't kill thread in python23:51
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woglindekhertan I want to break the loop23:51
khertanthe best way to do it ... is sending signal to the process to say it to break the loop23:52
woglindeexcept KeyboardInterrupt:23:52
Stskeepsjeremiah: python packaging in maemo is really screwed up in diablo23:52
woglindethats break the loop23:52
jeremiahAh, that I did not know.23:52
woglindekherthan so now how to send it23:52
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woglindeto the thread23:52
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khertanwoglinde: sorry ...23:57
khertani was compiling :)23:57
woglindehm okay23:57
woglindeI thought you run away23:57
khertanso ... the best way ... subclass the Threading.threads23:57
woglindebecause the problem was to hard23:57
woglindeits the scapy sniff command23:58
woglindeaeh method23:58
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Stskeepswb zerojay23:59
khertangrrrr ... sorry my nit is freezing23:59
woglindere zerojay23:59
woglindekhertan and I dont want to change scapy23:59
zerojayWaiting on my wife and kid outside the daycare... Weeeee...23:59

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