IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-03-25

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hooey	I've got scratchbox 2, and it can't run /usr/share/colormake/colormake.pl, even though it's in my regular path, and my sb2 path in ~/.maemo-sdk	00:08
hooey	In both rootstraps.	00:09
lbt	gnuton: just got maemo2 and the problem has gone.	00:09
gnuton	lbt: great.	00:09
lbt	but maemo2 hasn't got the closeEvent fix has it?	00:09
gnuton	no	00:09
lbt	good	00:09
gnuton	the maemo2 and maemo3 have still the closeEvent bug :(	00:10
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gnuton	the maemo3 will be ready tomorrow around the noon	00:10
lbt	OK - BTW .... why '8' ?	00:11
gnuton	8=	00:11
gnuton	?	00:11
gnuton	8?	00:11
lbt	your fix...	00:12
lbt	QVarLengthArray<Atom, 8> newAtoms;	00:12
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gnuton	I'm not sure about that 8.	00:13
gnuton	but I think that it's enought sett it to 8..	00:13
gnuton	usually we have only 4 properties	00:13
gnuton	if I don't set it, Qt prealloc 256 T items...	00:14
gnuton	and it's too big..	00:14
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lbt	ah, it's only the hint for the initial size isn't it	00:15
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gnuton	lbt: something similar.. it allocates 8 element in the stack (that is fast) and if needed it allocates the others elements in the heap (slow)	00:18
lbt	yep - read the docs	00:18
gnuton	;D	00:19
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lbt	do you know what's happening with finger scrolling and things?	00:21
gnuton	what do you mean?	00:21
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lbt	have you used shopper?	00:21
gnuton	yes	00:21
lbt	the scrollarea with a big list	00:21
gnuton	I can check it now.. I've the kinetic scroll patch applied on my libs	00:22
gnuton	now :D	00:22
lbt	I heard Qt (or maybe just hildon Qt) would be doing something in this area	00:22
gnuton	I think hildon Qt.. not Qt itself...	00:23
lbt	have you seen my implementation	00:23
lbt	http://repo.or.cz/w/shopper.git?a=blob;f=src/ui/QFingerScrollArea.cc;h=cef4bf4843db707912604110f2a9316554b6e0d8;hb=gestures	00:23
lbt	http://repo.or.cz/w/shopper.git?a=blob;f=src/ui/QFingerScrollArea.h;h=d6c8de69c34d9f199e76856b3dcc4e8ea37657cf;hb=gestures	00:23
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lbt	especially : registerChildrenForFingerScrolling()	00:24
hooey	Is there a way to pass a command to execute to "maemo-sdk enter runtime" or "sb2 -e"?	00:24
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hooey	Analogous to `ssh some_machine echo '$DISPLAY'`...	00:25
lbt	or "#sh -c"	00:26
gnuton	lbt: how it works?	00:26
lbt	gnuton: magic	00:26
lbt	or "very well"	00:26
lbt	:D	00:26
gnuton	cool	00:26
gnuton	Do you have a video?	00:26
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lbt	yes, but it's old and I've improved the feel a lot	00:27
lbt	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPQ1VlyMPYU	00:27
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lbt	easiest is to install shopper and use a big XML file... I'll send you one if you like	00:28
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lbt	I wanted to see if we could add it to dropdowns too	00:28
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lbt	I haven't bothered optimising mine since I thought someone (you?) was doing something and it would get binned :(	00:31
* xnt\|kde421 is trying kde4.2.1 and so far so good :)		00:31
* xnt\|kde421 wants kde4.2.1 on n900 (omap3=better preformance)		00:31
xnt\|kde421	kde mobile :P	00:32
lbt	xnt\|kde421: been there, done that...	00:32
xnt\|kde421	:P	00:32
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xnt\|kde421	I saw a video of kde 4.0 on an n800 before and it took 5mins for dolphin to open :P	00:32
xnt\|kde421	*n810	00:32
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lbt	which is why we have Mer...	00:33
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lbt	Mer = "ubuntu for people who aren't daft enough to run openoffice on an n800"	00:33
gnuton	lbt: I'm using part of the code of Araya	00:33
lbt	Araya?	00:34
gnuton	lbt: the troll	00:34
xnt\|kde421	lbt: kde4.2.1 is not too slow but not very fast either on my xps 600 xceleo.com/setup.html	00:34
lbt	don't know him	00:34
xnt\|kde421	gnuton: ??? whats araya?	00:34
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* xnt\|kde421 didn't know about kde4.2.1 until he visited ubuntugeek on a tut on how to install xfce4 on a ubuntu desktop :P		00:35
gnuton	Sorry Ariya	00:35
xnt\|kde421	it was in a sidebar	00:35
gnuton	:D	00:35
* xnt\|kde421 is googleing		00:35
xnt\|kde421	:P	00:35
* lbt didn't know about 4.2. until he accidentally upgraded a package in Debian and then had to go the whole hog		00:36
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* xnt\|kde421 still has to get used to the inverted desktop rotation in kwin, does anyone know how to revert kwins desktop cube control to compiz's ctrl+alt+l/r/u/p?		00:37
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lbt	gnuton: I uses that approach for the gestures	00:37
lbt	FlickCharm ?	00:38
gnuton	lbt: yes. But i've integrated the changes in Qt	00:38
gnuton	http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2008/11/15/flick-list-or-kinetic-scrolling/	00:38
lbt	OK	00:38
lbt	can I see the code?	00:39
gnuton	it's crappy	00:39
gnuton	but if you want to help me you are welcome	00:39
lbt	so's mine :)	00:39
gnuton	exactly :D	00:39
gnuton	ahha :D	00:39
lbt	take the good bits of both then	00:39
gnuton	just few minutes...	00:40
lbt	no rush	00:40
gnuton	I'll send to you tha patch	00:40
gnuton	via mail	00:40
lbt	I'd appreciate you taking a look at the approach I used and seeing what you like and what you hate	00:40
lbt	for example. in my approach you can add/remove children and scroll still works	00:41
lbt	as it traps addChild	00:41
lbt	and adds the eventFilter to that child	00:41
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lcuk	lbt, that approach could simply be done once then on something like qttablet and everything within will attempt to use it	00:43
lcuk	might get dangerous though	00:43
lcuk	gnuton, dont you find kinetic with a mouse awkward, on the desktop you just use your mousewheel and never really consider flicking	00:43
lbt	I only look at children of the scrollarea	00:43
lcuk	ahhh - like the checkbox/listitems?	00:44
lbt	yes	00:44
lcuk	cool	00:44
lbt	and even buttons	00:44
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lbt	it relies on being able to store and replay events though	00:44
lcuk	in liqbase i just leave those things without a mouse handler, the stroke just falls backwards until it hits a panel with a handler	00:44
lcuk	or a panel thats larger than its parent	00:45
lbt	yes, but the mousedown event, then a small move then a mouseup	00:45
lbt	all have to be played back	00:45
lbt	but down, big move, up	00:45
lbt	doesn't	00:45
lcuk	no, cos buttons and checks listen for Click only	00:45
lcuk	they arent watching for strokes in that manner	00:45
lbt	I go deep	00:45
lbt	they might be	00:45
lbt	never assume....	00:46
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lcuk	yeah i know the playing back i thought i might have to at one point	00:46
lbt	you may add a handwriting widget	00:46
lcuk	i can assume - im in control of the rules right now ;)	00:46
lcuk	then it wont be scrolling	00:46
lbt	tut tut	00:46
lcuk	so it will need to handle it	00:46
lbt	tell him gnuton	00:46
lcuk	ie dont try to do two things with the same box	00:46
lcuk	you are either scrolling or you are writing	00:46
lcuk	cant have both	00:47
lcuk	a user would get confused and frustrated	00:47
lbt	give developers the rope	00:47
lcuk	its not that	00:47
lcuk	you are writing	00:47
lbt	I can tell you use MSoft...	00:47
lcuk	your stroke is entirely used	00:47
lbt	<evil grin>	00:47
lcuk	no, thats just common sense :)	00:47
lcuk	my paper stays still whilst i am writing on it	00:48
lcuk	if in another mode i wanted to move around then that can be handled cleanly as well	00:48
lbt	your are 100% right in an application.... but, IMHO, not in a framework	00:48
lcuk	but anyway, i was trying to support you then \@/ evil psiren man	00:49
lcuk	its not that, there simply isnt a need to ever do something like that, and a dev can stack as many handlers as required	00:49
lbt	well, I do it in shopper.	00:49
lcuk	it does work i just dont see the point ;)	00:49
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gnuton	lbt: patch sent.	00:49
lbt	I have gestures and finger scrolling	00:49
lbt	ta gnuton	00:50
gnuton	:D	00:50
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lbt	btw, gnuton did you get that?	00:50
lcuk	left/right squiggle within a small confined label space vs up/down motion somewhere else	00:50
lbt	I have gestures and finger scrolling in the same area	00:50
lcuk	watch out, apple have patents for directional control like that	00:50
jaem	lcuk, lbt: what's this?	00:50
lbt	I'll show them other tricks I can do with my fingers!	00:50
* jaem came in in the middle		00:51
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lcuk	heh	00:51
lbt	Qt and scrolling using fingures	00:51
jaem	ah... nice	00:51
gnuton	lbt: currently that patch is in a very early stage..	00:51
* lbt wonders what a fingure is?		00:51
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lcuk	lbt - with the same stroke if you go from doing a left/right scribble to updown what happens	00:51
jaem	have any of you folks used a fabric keyboard?	00:51
lcuk	no but i type in my sleep occasionally	00:52
jaem	haha	00:52
gnuton	guys I'm very tired..	00:52
lcuk	and do bugfixes	00:52
lbt	lcuk: it registers an "lrud" gesture	00:52
gnuton	It's time to sleep.. it's about 1 o'clock.:(	00:52
lbt	which is emit'ed	00:52
jaem	I just made a deal with someone on itT to trade a spare BP-4L for a Bluetooth fabric keyboard	00:52
lbt	gnuton: g'night + thanks for the closeEvent()	00:52
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b0unc3	buonanotte gnuton :)	00:53
lbt	look forward to making the scrolling better :)	00:53
jaem	if it works as well as they claim, it sounds like a decent deal	00:53
lcuk	ahhh so you have your stuff just saying "detect gesture" and you have specific handlers for those kinds of gestures depending if you hit the label or not?	00:53
gnuton	lbt: your shopper now shows the Save list when I want to close it! :D	00:53
lbt	\o/	00:53
lbt	(I can't test that bit!)	00:53
gnuton	b0unc3: hah :D notte a te! :D	00:53
gnuton	lbt: if you want to test it.. and you have compiled the source at least 1 tie	00:54
gnuton	time	00:54
gnuton	you can go in src/gui	00:54
lcuk	gnite gnuton btw :)	00:54
lbt	it's building...	00:54
gnuton	and so run "make"	00:54
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lbt	then copy libQtGui.so.4.5.0 :)	00:54
gnuton	you can run make only in the GUI module so that it make onlt the libQtGui.so.4.5.0	00:54
gnuton	exactly	00:55
lbt	that's how I knew about tabletMove	00:55
gnuton	the use scp to copy it	00:55
gnuton	great! :D	00:55
gnuton	aha :D	00:55
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gnuton	it's sad for me leave you guys... I ove to much stay here.. hacking and talking	00:55
gnuton	but it's time to sleep..	00:55
lbt	heh - anytime, we'll catch you tomorrow	00:56
gnuton	see you tomorrow	00:56
gnuton	:D	00:56
gnuton	niteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee	00:56
gnuton	:D	00:56
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lbt	when's the maemo event this year?	00:59
lbt	have I missed it?	00:59
jaem	lbt: Siberia, and yes	01:00
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lbt	damn	01:01
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GeneralAntilles	lbt, September	01:01
GeneralAntilles	There's a thread on -community.	01:01
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lbt	thought I'd seen something - couldn't put my finger - ta GA	01:01
jaem	xnt: ping	01:01
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xnt	jaem: pong	01:10
xnt	:P	01:10
* xnt reads the scrollback		01:11
xnt	:P	01:11
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lbt	lcuk: yes	01:12
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lcuk	thats cool then lbt, its the same effect, you still only have one handler, you dont really have 2 fighting, except you need to playback when its a different normal stroke	01:13
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lbt	oh,	01:13
lbt	no then	01:13
lcuk	lol	01:13
lbt	I have 2 handlers	01:13
lbt	one for gestures	01:13
lbt	one for scroll area	01:14
lbt	as it happens	01:14
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lbt	I use a widget inside my scrollarea that is being gesture-watcheds	01:14
lbt	my scrollarea does not know this	01:14
lbt	my gesturewatcher does not know it may be scrolled	01:14
lbt	they both work	01:14
lbt	this is goodness	01:15
* Pavlov kicks his n810		01:15
lcuk	yes, but your scrolling must wait until its got enough information to know its not doing a gesture	01:15
lcuk	Pavlov, send it to me	01:15
* lbt hears pavlovs n810 go ding		01:15
Pavlov	heh	01:15
Pavlov	which one do you want?	01:15
lcuk	all of em :)	01:15
Pavlov	and whats in it for me? ;)	01:15
lcuk	i want a beowulf cluster	01:15
Pavlov	haha	01:16
lcuk	moar liqbase	01:16
Pavlov	not of n810s	01:16
Pavlov	get beagle boards or something	01:16
lbt	lcuk: the gesture gets first dibs	01:16
timeless_mbp	Pavlov: how close are you to the cluster of n810s?	01:16
lbt	on account of the gesture being attached to the widget before the widget is attached to the scrollarea	01:16
lcuk	http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG	01:16
Pavlov	i believe we have the highest concentration of n810s on the planet	01:17
lcuk	and NO, my picture does not break rule 34	01:17
lcuk	or has it just done so	01:17
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Pavlov	i have like 5 on my desk	01:17
timeless_mbp	Pavlov: quite likely	01:18
Pavlov	dunno what i'm doing with half of them	01:18
timeless_mbp	although i think qa may have a higher concentration of n800 protos :)	01:18
timeless_mbp	although most of them don't work, and maybe they finally returned them...	01:18
Pavlov	heh	01:18
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lbt	night all	01:51
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ymalheiros	lfelipe, opa... pvt?	02:07
lfelipe	ymalheiros: sim	02:08
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timeless_mbp	anyone here have mer?	03:13
timeless_mbp	for some reason, my screen's layout doesn't look right	03:14
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RST38h	http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2009/03/custom_1237938688448_GilbertAtomicOpentrimmed.jpg	03:40
RST38h	Yesss	03:41
GeneralAntilles	I think I've finally gotten used to the Mini 9's keyboard.	03:44
RST38h	Ready to move to Fujitsu? =)	03:44
GeneralAntilles	It's a larger formfactor than I'm interested in, and it's way more money than I want to pay.	03:45
GeneralAntilles	It also ships with Windows.	03:45
GeneralAntilles	So, um, no?	03:45
RST38h	No, I meant the other Fujitsu	03:45
RST38h	The really tiny one, with a flip screen. A moment	03:46
GeneralAntilles	That's, like, $1200?	03:46
RST38h	http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10081923-1.html	03:46
RST38h	Don't remember. Seen it in at a store few days ago, didn't check the price because the whole thing was too tiny anyway	03:47
RST38h	BUT, General, a Toshiba R500 is just $899 from CompUSA Direct	03:48
GeneralAntilles	"just"	03:48
GeneralAntilles	I paid $260	03:48
RST38h	Yes, but the goddamn Toshiba is ~3 times faster than your Mini and has got real screen and keyboard	03:49
GeneralAntilles	So, let's see, it's way bigger than what I want, it's way pricier than want I want, and it ships with Windows.	03:49
GeneralAntilles	No thanks.	03:49
RST38h	(ok, the LED backlit screen sucks in my personal opinion, but you can also use it in daylight, withbacklight off)	03:49
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Pinger	Hi	03:49
RST38h	isn't much bigger. yes, there is that "pricier" factor.	03:50
RST38h	having said that, I really liked the Mini I saw at the store, just a bit scared to buy something like this for development.	03:50
GeneralAntilles	It's a good 3" wider and 2" deeper.	03:51
GeneralAntilles	I'm glad you're happy with your purchase, but it's not what I'm looking for.	03:51
GeneralAntilles	If I had wanted a proper laptop I would have bought a proper laptop.	03:51
Pinger	Running 'apt-get' update on 'FREMANTLE_ARMEL', Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/sdk/non-free Packages 404 Not Found	03:51
RST38h	GAN: It isn't a proper laptop by any measure really	03:52
GeneralAntilles	Pinger, this is the Fremantle SDK repository structure: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/	03:52
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, whatever metrics you want to apply to it, it's certainly not a netbook and it's certainly not what I want.	03:53
Pinger	who can give a useable http_proxy?	03:53
RST38h	GAN: No, not a netbook. Has got a real CPU inside and a usable keyboard/screen :)	03:53
* GeneralAntilles doesn't know why this is a discussion.		03:54
RST38h	Dunno, you are just being a bit defensive of netbooks :)	03:54
GeneralAntilles	No, you're trying to push this Toshiba on me.	03:54
Pinger	GeneralAntilles: Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/tools/free Packages	03:55
Pinger	Connection failed	03:55
RST38h	General: It is either Toshiba or MacBook Air :)	03:55
RST38h	And I am not yet crazy enough to push the latter.	03:55
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, for me it's neither, because I don't want a piece of hardware in that formfactor.	03:55
GeneralAntilles	So, thanks for the recommendation, I'll keep it in mind if anybody else is looking for something like that. Otherwise, end of discussion.	03:56
Pinger	GeneralAntilles: i want to run 'atp-get update' for installing something	03:56
* RST38h wonders whether Intel current marketing policy would require him to push netbooks or real laptops (as opposed to netbooks)		03:56
GeneralAntilles	Pinger, can you pastebin your sources list?	03:56
GeneralAntilles	404 isn't a proxy issue if you've got bad sources entries.	03:57
Pinger	ok, wait a minute	03:57
Pinger	deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free	03:57
Pinger	deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free	03:57
Pinger	deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free non-free	03:57
Pinger	deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free	03:57
GeneralAntilles	As you can see here: the sdk and tools sup repos don't exist (there's no device yet for Fremantle, so no point in the tools repo)	03:58
GeneralAntilles	Remove /sdk and /tools from those entries and you should be OK.	03:58
Pinger	i got it	03:59
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atrus	Hello	03:59
Pinger	GeneralAntilles: it isn't ok	04:00
Pinger	deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/ free non-free	04:00
GeneralAntilles	Remove the trailing slash on fremantle/, too. :)	04:00
Pinger	i got this messages:	04:02
Pinger	Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/free Packages	04:02
Pinger	404 Not Found [IP: 193.184.164.146 80]	04:02
Pinger	Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/non-free Packages	04:02
Pinger	404 Not Found [IP: 193.184.164.146 80]	04:02
Pinger	Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/free Packages	04:02
Pinger	404 Not Found [IP: 193.184.164.146 80]	04:02
Pinger	Err http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/non-free Packages	04:02
Pinger	404 Not Found [IP: 193.184.164.146 80]	04:02
GeneralAntilles	Right, you'll need to remove the trailing slash from fremantle/. Your source entry should look like: deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle free non-free	04:03
Pinger	i did this, but it isn't ok	04:04
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Pinger	My source entry:	04:05
Pinger	deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free	04:05
Pinger	deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free	04:05
Pinger	deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free non-free	04:05
Pinger	deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free	04:05
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Pinger	i run 'export http_proxy=http://128.112.139.97:3127', and 'apt-get update'. it is ok	04:06
Pinger	maybe my network has something wrong	04:07
Pinger	GeneralAntilles: thanks for your help	04:09
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Atrus6	This may sound silly, but Pinger, should there be a space between maemo.org/ and freemantle?	04:16
GeneralAntilles	Yes	04:17
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GeneralAntilles	fremantle is the distribution	04:17
Pinger	A space? i don't thinks so	04:18
Pinger	why?	04:18
Atrus6	Oh, okay, I was just wondering, it looked odd to me.	04:19
Pinger	Hi, bro. How to install Buildbot in sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL	04:24
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krushia	i have a viewsonic viewpad. it needs some linux. any ideas? i'm having trouble finding a distribution to settle on. all i really want to do is scribble on it :-D	04:27
krushia	http://www.amazon.com/ViewSonic-ViewPad-1000-Tablet-PC/dp/B00006RVR8	04:28
krushia	that's the culprit	04:28
Pinger	Hi, bro. How to install Buildbot in sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL	04:29
GeneralAntilles	krushia, for your pursposes, Maemo proper is too much the embedded OS.	04:29
GeneralAntilles	But Mer sounds like what you're after.	04:29
GeneralAntilles	~mer	04:29
infobot	[mer] http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer	04:29
GeneralAntilles	It's a bit immature at the moment, but will probably fit your purposes rather nicely in a few months.	04:30
krushia	thanks for the lead	04:30
GeneralAntilles	krushia, most of the tablet-focused Linux stuff is pretty immature at the moment.	04:31
GeneralAntilles	But it's an up and coming space, so things should get better rather quickly.	04:31
krushia	yeah, i know there is a lot out there but it is all scattered in various device-specific projects	04:32
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GeneralAntilles	The important part of Maem, the Hildon UI, was pushed upstream a while ago	04:33
GeneralAntilles	but nobody's really done the work to make it more general purpose (until Mer, of course).	04:33
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RST38h	BTW, looks like I have found a workaround for the Flash player problem eating CPU	04:38
RST38h	If anyone is interested of course	04:38
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jaem	hello	05:55
jaem	OT, but has anyone heard of a company called Calao Systems? They make interesting ARM boards, but the series of links to viagra and similar at the bottom puts me off a bit	05:56
jaem	strangely enough, all those links appear to be going to pages hosted in .folders on some US university website	05:56
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fireun	wow, this is kinda neat - http://build.chromium.org/buildbot/waterfall/waterfall	06:38
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amit_usual	hi , i am a student applying for gsoc , i have contacted on the mailing list about the barcode scanner for which i have got some good responses , i have submitted a proposal based on that could you give me some idea of next few steps i should take to get involved here.	07:16
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yaema	Can anyone help me? I'm having problems to install python on scratchbox. Apt says that I requested an impossible situation and I really don't know what to do	07:50
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yaema	Can anyone help me? I'm having problems to install python on scratchbox. Apt says that I requested an impossible situation and I really don't know what to do	07:52
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yaema	quit	07:59
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timeless_mbp	google	09:35
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hhahlo	offtopic does anybody have any 3G linux device like mini laptop or something? does it make virtual serial interface for 3G circuit under /dev like /dev/ttyS0 or /dev/ttyUSB0?	09:41
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Davide	hi any maemo mapper developers here?	09:43
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:38
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tekojo	Morning	11:44
X-Fade	Morning.	11:45
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Myrtti	moin	11:51
timeless_mbp	hi	11:57
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timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: btw, the vbox tools fail	12:19
timeless_mbp	they complain i don't have kernel headers	12:19
timeless_mbp	and i can't find the kernel header version they want	12:19
Stskeeps	yeah.. don't think they have it for jaunty yet	12:20
timeless_mbp	kernel - headers = evil	12:21
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andre__	how can i easily post stuff in HTML in ITt, instead of using the ITt syntax? [HTML] tags don't do what i expected them to :-P	12:29
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x29a	andre__: maybe html is disabled for security reasons?	12:31
andre__	grmpf. if so, that's bad. shouldn't blocking <script>, <img> and <*frame> be enough?	12:31
timeless_mbp	no	12:32
timeless_mbp	you have to deal w/ attributes	12:32
timeless_mbp	and style	12:32
timeless_mbp	and... there's a longer explanation, but can we leave it at that?	12:32
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GeneralAntilles	I'm now utterly convinced that the Maemo SDK is explicitly setup to prevent anyone from ever developing for this platform.	12:53
timeless_mbp	took you log enough :)	12:55
GeneralAntilles	andre__, ping?	12:55
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: that's what i've been saying for a long time	12:56
Stskeeps	:P	12:56
GeneralAntilles	It's shameful really and Nokia's going to have to do something about it if they want anybody to take Maemo seriously.	12:56
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: The vmware images etc help..	12:57
andre__	GeneralAntilles, pong pong	12:57
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, nope, not even the VMWare image helps.	12:57
GeneralAntilles	andre__, how's bug-buddy?	12:58
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: andre__ IS bug-buddy	12:59
timeless_mbp	:)	12:59
andre__	i'm also wondering what GeneralAntilles means :-P	12:59
timeless_mbp	he automatically finds the right random bug tracker	12:59
timeless_mbp	no matter how well buried it is	12:59
* andre__ is bad with open questions, this problem already starts when someone asks me "how is it going"		12:59
GeneralAntilles	Evidently probably not that good, then. https://launchpad.net/bug-buddy	12:59
timeless_mbp	page won't load :)	13:00
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, drop the s maybe?	13:00
timeless_mbp	nah, safari is using a proxy it can't find :)	13:01
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: so...	13:01
timeless_mbp	nokia is probably shipping crash-reporter	13:01
GeneralAntilles	While watching various SDK installation methods go up in various different colored flames I was pondering on semi-automated crash reporters.	13:01
andre__	GeneralAntilles, what's that launchpad page about? and what's your real question? :)	13:01
timeless_mbp	certainly they keep pushing it	13:01
GeneralAntilles	Unfortunately Nokia refuses to properly ship theirs and I didn't have the patience to try to cajole bug-buddy into showing me what it looked like without an actual crash, so. . . .	13:02
timeless_mbp	heh	13:02
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timeless_mbp	well, poke eero :)	13:02
andre__	nokia has nitro available (the crash reporter)	13:02
timeless_mbp	or maybe tekojo	13:02
andre__	yupp, it's eero's app	13:02
timeless_mbp	someone from some team should be able to get a version+ source into some repo	13:02
GeneralAntilles	andre__, I kind of assumed that if it's being billed as GNOME's bug reporter somebody as heavily involved in GNOME would have some familiarity with it. :P	13:02
timeless_mbp	nitro is the old maemo4 name fwiw... it's now just crash-reporter :)	13:02
andre__	GeneralAntilles, yes, i may have some familiarity with it.	13:03
timeless_mbp	heh	13:03
andre__	but i can only answer concrete questions :-P	13:03
GeneralAntilles	andre__, don't be another SDK. :P	13:03
andre__	and "how's the weather" questions often confuse me. "how's the weather compared to foo" is easier ;-)	13:03
timeless_mbp	actually, it's sunny here/now...	13:04
GeneralAntilles	My question, I guess, is whether it's a useful enough project that it'd be worth looking at if I'm thinking about a bug reporter.	13:04
andre__	here too, finally	13:04
* timeless_mbp found bug buddy to be not that great		13:04
* timeless_mbp used it a couple of times		13:04
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andre__	GeneralAntilles, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2009-March/msg00035.html	13:05
GeneralAntilles	That's kind of what I assumed.	13:05
andre__	it's basic. that's why ubuntu has apport, and fedora is also working on their own app	13:05
andre__	instead of stopping wasting time and improving bug-buddy for their needs	13:05
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timeless_mbp	and nokia has nitro/crash-reporter	13:05
andre__	yeah, but that's a bit different technically	13:06
timeless_mbp	and mozilla has crash reporter (our name came first!) to replace talkback	13:06
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GeneralAntilles	The Linux desktop experience really leaves a lot to be desired.	13:06
timeless_mbp	mozilla also has a qa extension and some other feedback things like hendrix	13:06
andre__	nitro is more about coredumps, while bug-buddy is about stacktraces iirc	13:06
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: BeOS? :)	13:06
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timeless_mbp	andre__: the stack traces are managed by the nitro server	13:06
timeless_mbp	same w/ talkback/crashreporter	13:07
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andre__	yeah, somewhere in the dark :)	13:07
timeless_mbp	you send a core, the server has the symbols and figures out the rest	13:07
timeless_mbp	yeah well..	13:07
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andre__	that was also planned for gnome, before fer left after doing half of the work, and was never seen again	13:07
GeneralAntilles	It's tough going from a desktop environment that mostly works at least somewhat most of the time to one that likes to fail spectacularly from time to time.	13:07
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timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: hey...	13:07
timeless_mbp	i'm still looking at OS X and saying "wow, a feature i had in BeOS 10 years ago"	13:08
timeless_mbp	(this is a "new in 10.5" feature)	13:08
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	13:08
GeneralAntilles	Well, we make due with what we've got. ;)	13:08
timeless_mbp	do?	13:08
GeneralAntilles	Blame your SDK team for scrambling my brains.	13:08
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jeff1f	beos, it's the os	13:11
glass	beos is nice	13:11
glass	but.. pretty useless for working nowadays	13:11
GeneralAntilles	Nice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcdaosTiWPI	13:13
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andre__	GeneralAntilles, bug-buddy screenshots: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=77786&action=view and http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=77788&action=view and http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=120505&action=view	13:14
andre__	fyi	13:14
GeneralAntilles	I think I hate about "What were you doing?" fields in automated crash reports is that, usually, the best answer I can come up with is "using your, evidently broken, application"	13:15
GeneralAntilles	s/I think/The thing/	13:17
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: The thing I hate about "What were you doing?" fields in automated crash reports is that, usually, the best answer I can come up with is "using your, evidently broken, application"	13:17
* GeneralAntilles <- scrambled.		13:17
GeneralAntilles	reporters. . . .	13:17
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: yeah, those fields generally don't seem to work well	13:18
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: heh, i'm scrambled atm too. we are presenting something at work tomorrow and we have to put a board in a shiny new case.. which has just been spray painted	13:18
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: the worst feature of bug buddy and similar	13:18
Stskeeps	i feel a bit high combined with a huge headache.	13:18
timeless_mbp	is the ability to show the user the data they have	13:18
timeless_mbp	which is usually garbage w/o corresponding server data	13:18
timeless_mbp	users will inevitably copy that "data" into a bug report	13:18
timeless_mbp	andre__: nice example	13:19
timeless_mbp	http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556142	13:19
timeless_mbp	Status:UNCONFIRMED	13:19
timeless_mbp	Opened: 2008-10-13	13:19
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andre__	timeless_mbp, the "review data" button is the bad workaround to blame the user herself for submitting passwords etc	13:21
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andre__	*no irony)	13:21
timeless_mbp	users will then copy the data, password included :)	13:21
timeless_mbp	the review data button at least for the closed database versions	13:21
andre__	their fault. "we gave them the option to avoid that" :-P	13:21
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, there's the "OK, I've found a crash that looks to be reproducible, so now I'm going to figure out everything I need to know to file a useful bug" and then there's "OK, here's this pretty crash reporter that's suddenly and unexpectedly appeared for an application that was idling in the background"	13:21
andre__	timeless_mbp, what's wrong with 556142?	13:21
timeless_mbp	is a workaround for the paranoid users who will complain	13:21
timeless_mbp	andre__: it's unconfirmed	13:22
timeless_mbp	and has a symbol free stack	13:22
andre__	timeless_mbp, in gnome bugzilla there's no difference at all between unconfirmed and new	13:22
* GeneralAntilles slaps andre__ with a pile of PC pronouns.		13:22
andre__	yeah, the stacktrace is BS	13:22
timeless_mbp	andre__: that bug should be INVALID/WORKSFORME	13:22
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andre__	INCOMPLETE, yeah	13:22
andre__	done :-P	13:23
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: yep, i know	13:23
timeless_mbp	the latter happens most often, by far	13:23
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, the PC pronoun syndrom seems really bad in non-native speakers.	13:23
timeless_mbp	the mozilla approach is imo better	13:23
timeless_mbp	we let people send crash reports	13:24
timeless_mbp	and we let them have pointers to them	13:24
timeless_mbp	and if someone wants to try to hunt down a crash, they can try	13:24
* andre__ wonders but is thankful for the pile		13:24
andre__	because i said "her" instead of "him"?	13:24
timeless_mbp	otherwise, on the aggregate, we'll catch the common bugs	13:24
andre__	:-P	13:24
timeless_mbp	herself	13:24
timeless_mbp	is just awful	13:25
timeless_mbp	but clearly i'm desensitized	13:25
GeneralAntilles	andre__, just drop the pronoun in that case.	13:25
andre__	i don't really care either. i could also write himself. shrug	13:25
timeless_mbp	i wouldn't use either	13:25
GeneralAntilles	and use something gender-neutral like themselves	13:25
andre__	workarounds for problems i don't recognize as problems...	13:26
GeneralAntilles	Grammarians will bitch at you but normal people will appreciate not having to read PC insanity.	13:26
andre__	i've never cared about PC, but i can still choose randomly from himself/herself/whatever when i write, right? :-)	13:26
Myrtti	themselves ♥	13:27
timeless_mbp	not if you want us to smile at you :)	13:27
timeless_mbp	you can just blame users	13:27
timeless_mbp	no need for a pronoun	13:27
andre__	smile? naah, i need my daily amount of hatemail to be happy. smile if you want, but i don't care ;-)	13:28
* timeless_mbp curses		13:30
timeless_mbp	i have a single 300gb drive	13:30
timeless_mbp	it has a single 30gb partition	13:30
GeneralAntilles	andre__, just wait for the Molotovs. :P	13:30
timeless_mbp	and i have no way to easily create an unformatted 270gb (yes, whatever's left, i don't care about accuracy in numbers) partition	13:30
GeneralAntilles	Why not?	13:32
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Stskeeps	sfdisk or similar? :P	13:32
aquatix	timeless_mbp: cfdisk?	13:33
timeless_mbp	on osx?	13:33
aquatix	gparted?	13:33
aquatix	:)	13:33
aquatix	hmn	13:33
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tekojo	GeneralAntilles: How did we (SDK team) cause you discomfort this time	13:33
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GeneralAntilles	tekojo, several ways after a half-dozen failed attempts at installing the alpha release, the 4.1 release and the VMWare release.	13:35
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: not counting any bad English you had to read? :)	13:35
GeneralAntilles	timeless_mbp, fortunately I fixed most of the bad English in the Fremantle release notes myself. :P	13:36
tekojo	GeneralAntilles: We should give you a prize for trying hard :-)	13:37
GeneralAntilles	tekojo, I bet an RX-51 would go a long way to healing all wounds. :P	13:37
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timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: well, maybe	13:38
timeless_mbp	but it'll probably give you typhoid fever	13:38
tekojo	GeneralAntilles: But you have something set up now?	13:38
GeneralAntilles	tekojo, no.	13:38
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tekojo	GeneralAntilles: Sounds like you need some help, care to open a ticket or write a mail?	13:40
GeneralAntilles	I'll probably move on to an older VMWare release as soon as I feel like spending another 2 hours waiting on the tablets-dev server	13:40
GeneralAntilles	If you want to make me happy, figure out how to fix https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4210	13:40
GeneralAntilles	I'll fix https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4238 as a sign of good will. :P	13:40
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tekojo	GeneralAntilles: Anything to let Marcell do his real job :-)	13:43
timelE61i	aWw g	13:43
timelE61i	my mac killed its screen again	13:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Did you use fakeroot for that 4210 one?	13:43
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Or try to use ;)	13:43
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, maybe, but it failed that way at the end of the SDK installation script, so. . . .	13:43
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GeneralAntilles	timelE61i, what, did it send a voltage spike down the DVI cable to be spiteful?	13:46
timelE61i	Dunno	13:49
timelE61i	It might be in a reboot loop nowe	13:49
aquatix	the mac? or the monitor?	13:49
aquatix	booting monitor, please hang on	13:49
GeneralAntilles	aquatix, hey, that's a thing!	13:51
GeneralAntilles	I've used an Acer 15" that spends about 15 seconds on an Acer splash screen when you first turn it on.	13:51
aquatix	ah yes, gotta hate that	13:51
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aquatix	15 seconds is rather long though	13:52
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glass	GeneralAntilles: my asus does that sometimes too when it's scanning through usb drives which are connected for some reason	14:02
glass	GeneralAntilles: turned off the asus splashscreen with it's annoying sound though to see the actual boot process..	14:02
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GeneralAntilles	OK, I think this is read: http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/repository.maemo.org.html Any more comments or notes?	14:08
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GeneralAntilles	s/read/ready/	14:09
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: OK, I think this is ready: http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/repository.maemo.org.html Any more comments or notes?	14:09
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GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, ping?	14:15
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Yep	14:16
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, where should the .installs go on r.m.o?	14:16
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: How do you mean?	14:17
GeneralAntilles	Just repository.maemo.org/extras.install or what?	14:17
X-Fade	Why would you want that?	14:18
GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/repository.maemo.org.html	14:18
GeneralAntilles	Unless you just want to link to the ones on Garage.	14:18
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Maybe http://repository.maemo.org/extras/install/extras.install is better?	14:22
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, dunno, is it? :P	14:23
X-Fade	As that is our namespace..	14:23
_\|Nix\|_	Hi! Does anyone else have NAT modules for Chinook or Diablo aside from http://my.arava.co.il/~matan/770/ ? I can't get the MASQUERADEing to work with those modules, even though it worked perfectly with the ipt_nat-3.2007.10-7 modules and an N800 running OS2007.	14:23
X-Fade	As the sdk lives in the root.	14:23
GeneralAntilles	I also need to put up a .install for the Diablo Tools repo.	14:23
X-Fade	Hmm true.	14:23
GeneralAntilles	tekojo, have you seen http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/repository.maemo.org.html ?	14:24
tekojo	X-Fade: that must be your favourite url :-)	14:24
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: You'd have to ask marcell how the filesytstem structure looks there. I don't have access to that server.	14:24
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X-Fade	tekojo: To be honest, I'd really like adding repositories to be as painful as possible ;)	14:25
GeneralAntilles	Knives.	14:25
tekojo	GeneralAntilles: :-)	14:25
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Stskeeps	mm, any interesting armv4t devices to put hildon interface on? (besides the freerunner)	14:28
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lcuk	whats the minimum runnable res for hildon	14:29
GeneralAntilles	Hrm, what's the Extras repository called on Fremantle?	14:29
Stskeeps	lcuk: good question, - 480x640 is managable in our theme at least	14:29
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, arguably 800x480 with no additional modification.	14:29
GeneralAntilles	s	14:29
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Extras? :)	14:30
lcuk	gen thats only the maemo branch, i hink work upstream has cured a lot of those ills :P	14:30
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, Maemo is Hildon upstream.	14:30
lcuk	so everything starts here? i thought it was elsewhere	14:30
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, I guess we'll need to use a separate .install for Fremantle, then.	14:31
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: It will not be different from diablo etc?	14:31
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GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, I guess it doesn't really matter if it's just Extras-devel for the time being, but if we want h-a-m to activate the pre-existing Extras catalogue entry it's got to have a matching name in the .install	14:32
GeneralAntilles	Otherwise it'll just add a new catalogue entry.	14:32
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Ah, yes, well we'd need to ask Richard or Marius.	14:33
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X-Fade	As application manager seems to have hidden behind the curtain again, we can't just check the current source.	14:34
* GeneralAntilles grumbles.		14:34
X-Fade	Last update here has been a while: http://gitorious.org/projects/hildon-application-manager/repos/mainline	14:34
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Stskeeps	X-Fade: i think there's a newer version in fremantle SDK	14:35
X-Fade	Stskeeps: Hmm indeed, that can give us a hint..	14:35
GeneralAntilles	"open" development	14:35
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: well, much can be said but at least we've gotten 3 code drops so far	14:36
Stskeeps	and there's still a long range of stuff on stage. svn	14:36
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: only the doc/install.txt talks about extras.	14:39
X-Fade	[extras]	14:39
X-Fade	name = maemo Extras catalogue	14:39
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GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, well, Nokians may just have to suffer with inconsistently named repositories until they give us real information.	14:40
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: I'll ping them to see if something changed.	14:41
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GeneralAntilles	Hey, alterego.	14:45
alterego	Good afternoon, how're you this fine day?	14:45
GeneralAntilles	OK, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4240	14:45
GeneralAntilles	Excellent! Yourself?	14:45
alterego	I'm good :)	14:45
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Ok, mail sent. Let's see.	14:48
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Interesting: hildon-application-manager-merge-catalogues.cc	14:54
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, from the Fremantle repo?	14:54
X-Fade	Yep that version.	14:54
GeneralAntilles	Indeed.	14:56
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X-Fade	So it seems that name isn't looked at anymore ;)	14:56
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Shadow__X	hmm	15:43
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Stskeeps	ok, http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-ui4.png	16:52
Stskeeps	good/bad way to signal current application?	16:52
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lcuk	Stskeeps, signal current application? you mean highlight which is ontop?	17:01
lcuk	or am i missing some other subtle ui clue	17:01
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oilinki	good evening	17:36
lardman	hi oilinki	17:36
oilinki	lardman: hi, how are things going?	17:37
lardman	not too bad, busy though; you?	17:38
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oilinki	lardman: too many things to be done and too lazy to do anything without real need.. quite the normal :)	17:39
lardman	lol	17:39
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lardman	I just got a final-chance order email from openpandora, and had a momentary lapse and thought I'd just go for it	17:39
Stskeeps	lcuk: it show the current app	17:40
lardman	but then I saw that they reckon another 25 days for keymat production, then another 35 or so for case, etc., etc	17:40
GAN800	lol	17:41
oilinki	lardman: to be a bit slow have it's advantages as well. there will be many 'must have' products for an moment.. which will not be the same after couple of nights good sleep.	17:41
GAN800	lardman, what you didn't notice is that they've put you down for 10 of them. :P	17:41
keesj	lardman: but there are so many other nice devices	17:41
lardman	GAN800: they don't have my details	17:41
lardman	GAN800: it was only a momentary lapse, then reality kicked back in	17:42
Stskeeps	"ooh, gadget"	17:42
GAN800	lardman, that's what you think. :P	17:42
lardman	GAN800: takes me longer than a moment to work out my bank details, so I'm protected there ;)	17:42
oilinki	I have been out of the maemo knowledgezone for an while. is maemo still on 2008 version or is there something new already out?	17:42
lardman	Stskeeps: well I think it looked cool before, and still does, I just thought they had got cracking with it; ah well	17:43
hooey	How do you find the rootstrap in Scratchbox 2?	17:43
GAN800	oilinki, Fremantle alpha	17:43
oilinki	GAN800: thanks for the info. is that usable stable already?	17:44
GAN800	oilinki, well, it's not feature complete	17:44
lardman	argh, I've lost the remote for a little RC submarine, will have to go and find a crystal now and hope it works	17:45
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GAN800	Aw, poor lardman can't play in the bath anymore. :(	17:45
lardman	ultrasonic C-scan tank I was thinking	17:45
qwerty12	Nothing beats a rubber duck! :P	17:46
oilinki	GAN800: ok. better to stay with the current version still.	17:46
hooey	How do you get the current target in Scratchbox 2?	17:46
hooey	In sb1 you would call `sb-conf current`	17:46
GAN800	qwerty12, except for rock	17:46
GAN800	rock beats rubber duckie	17:46
qwerty12	lol	17:46
oilinki	any new rumors of maemo with gsm/3g?	17:46
Stskeeps	oilinki: well, fremantle won't show up for n8x0s	17:46
Stskeeps	oilinki: yes, next version will (definately) have hsdpa data	17:46
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oilinki	Stskeeps: that's a good news. with normal call features as well?	17:47
GAN800	Unknown	17:47
Stskeeps	oilinki: unknown as of yet, there's obviously rumours, but noone says it'll be next device	17:47
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Stskeeps	as fremantle probably could support a flurry of devices	17:48
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lardman	GAN800: have the new council members yielded to your iron chairemperor's will; I guess you'll need to use the Force and have them vote you back in? ;)	17:48
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hooey	Do you guys seriously not know how to do `sb-conf current` in sb2?	17:49
GAN800	lardman, Jaffa stole my super powers!	17:49
Stskeeps	hooey: well sb2 has "default target" instead	17:49
lardman	GAN800: ah, I see he's kept quiet about that one :)	17:49
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hooey	Stskeeps: What do you mean?	17:51
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hooey	Stskeeps: I need to get the string name of the target...	17:51
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Stskeeps	sb2-config -L -	17:52
hooey	Stskeeps: Is there a better way to do that a la `sb-conf current`?	17:53
Stskeeps	hooey: no idea really, not a sb2 developer	17:53
Stskeeps	each time i use it i feel like throwing a fit :P	17:54
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hooey	Stskeeps: There has to be a way to do this, this is retarded.	17:56
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Stskeeps	hooey: i'm starting to really adore the thought of opensuse build service	17:59
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hooey	Stskeeps: What's that?	18:02
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Stskeeps	hooey: they basically have made a scratchbox where they fixed the user mode emulation first, so it completely emulates arm binaries on x86, and -then- accelerating with some i386 packages (binutils, m4, gcc cross compiler)	18:03
hooey	Stskeeps: Nice.	18:03
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matmo	is there such a thing as a list of packages/libs installed as default for Diablo?	18:05
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mib_cofqygkd	looking for discussion over SOC projects....	18:07
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Stskeeps	that'd be here, sometimes :P	18:08
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Stskeeps	'lo wazd	18:09
wazd	hey everybody	18:09
Stskeeps	wazd: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/mer-ui4-novm.png	18:09
Stskeeps	getting the things right atm	18:09
mib_cofqygkd	any mentors on the list?	18:09
mib_cofqygkd	need some assitance	18:09
lcuk	matmo, yes there is a full list somewhere on the machine	18:10
slonopotamus	Stskeeps, hi	18:10
slonopotamus	Stskeeps, you recently replaced cx3110x-module-src source archive on r.m.t.o, right?	18:10
Stskeeps	slonopotamus: did i?	18:10
keesj	why did they not roll out WiMax one year ago in amsterdam and only now	18:10
slonopotamus	Stskeeps, err... it now has patches/deblet-cx3110x.patch inside	18:10
Stskeeps	slonopotamus: 16 december	18:10
wazd	Stskeeps: nice)	18:10
hooey	Stskeeps: maemo-sdk show rootstrap	18:10
X-Fade	keesj: Different frequency?	18:11
Stskeeps	hooey: ah	18:11
wazd	Stskeeps: but I reall don't like "mer" icon look	18:11
mib_cofqygkd	I think I am at wrong place....	18:11
slonopotamus	Stskeeps, is it (patch) applied already?	18:11
Stskeeps	slonopotamus: honestly, i don't recall	18:11
matmo	lcuk: happen to know where? and would it exclude everything I have installed myself? I thought maybe there would be a file on a maemo site somewhere.	18:11
Stskeeps	wazd: it's 48x48 now	18:11
wazd	Stskeeps: Maybe you can make it to be some fixed size so I can draw proper icon?	18:11
wazd	Stskeeps: ok	18:11
Stskeeps	you don't happen to have it in SVG do you?	18:12
lcuk	matmo, there probably is a list somewhere, but theres a definitive list on your actual machine fully datestamped as to when it was built	18:12
keesj	I don't know yet but I guess a n810 Wimax edition would have made more sense to me back then	18:12
lcuk	you can see the order things are installed and everything :)	18:12
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matmo	lcuk: ok, thanks, I will do a bit of digging	18:12
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Stskeeps	wazd: besides that, it should be possible to edit things a little better soon :)	18:13
Stskeeps	this theme is modifyable	18:13
Stskeeps	including the icons	18:13
wazd	last.fm blocked third-party apps(	18:13
X-Fade	wazd: Listening to it right now.	18:14
wazd	I wonder what Vagalume would do	18:14
X-Fade	wazd: Through vagalume.	18:14
wazd	X-Fade: aw	18:14
wazd	X-Fade: maybe last.fm guys like opensource))	18:14
X-Fade	Vagalume was updated last week orso to fix some streaming issue.	18:14
wazd	http://i.gizmodo.com/5183443/lastfm-silences-third+party-mobile-apps	18:15
Stskeeps	wazd: well they do originate from audioscrobbler so	18:15
wazd	Stskeeps: aw!	18:16
wazd	Stskeeps: btw!	18:16
wazd	Stskeeps: I almost forgot)	18:16
wazd	Stskeeps: I have some cool Idea bout Mer :)	18:16
Stskeeps	hehe, go ahead	18:16
wazd	Stskeeps: but I have to restart now, new X-Fi drivers came in)	18:17
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Stskeeps	alright	18:17
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timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: so, i've gotten most of this stuff working :)	18:19
Stskeeps	timeless_mbp: alright - the ui stuff or which?	18:19
slonopotamus	hehe MAFW	18:19
timeless_mbp	w7 :)	18:19
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timeless_mbp	OSX hosting ZFS + VirtualBox hosting w7	18:20
slonopotamus	gstreamer, phonon, esd... too few?	18:20
lcuk	matmo, qwerty12 once nicely told me to look here: /var/lib/dpkg/info/<package>.list each package has a .list file :)	18:20
Stskeeps	w7?	18:20
lcuk	they have a nice datestamp	18:20
timeless_mbp	mer mostly works, except the vpn got broken	18:20
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timeless_mbp	someone suggested i downgrade	18:20
Stskeeps	yeah, there's probably some jaunty issues	18:20
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matmo	lcuk: hey thanks! Looks promising :-)	18:22
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dob	I'm getting "Exit reason and status: signal 9" whenever I run sb2 with the -e option. What can be done? (I've compiled it for amd64)	19:11
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qnr	Hi. For some reason, on my N800, I no longer get "recommendations" as I enter words with the stylus. Anyone know what I might have inadvertantly turned off?	19:21
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till-	qnr check the text input field in the options	19:24
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till-	on the tab "languages" are options for the selected dictionary	19:24
till-	and by clicking on that button you should find the switch	19:25
matmo_	hmmm. how to get a directory listing showing full date including year?	19:27
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till-	ls -la ?	19:28
matmo_	nope, doesn't show year	19:28
till-	on ubuntu it does .. strange	19:29
matmo_	busybox on maemo	19:29
qwerty12	But Ubuntu has proper coreutils ls, not the shitty busybox one :)	19:30
lcuk	qnr, control panel text/keyboard/regional settings ish - cant remember exact one but theres ticks for word completion and other stuff like that	19:30
qwerty12	That said, color-ls here: http://www.nitapps.com/ is nice	19:30
* lcuk isnt near a tablet to tell you specifically		19:30
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qnr	till-, thanks. No idea how that was turned off.	19:32
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till-	matmo_ try ls -e	19:34
qnr	lcuk, thank you. I guess I didn't dig deep enough, didn't expect it to be related to "regional" settings	19:34
till-	matmo_ http://www.busybox.net/downloads/BusyBox.html	19:34
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matmo_	terminal only seems to show the year if not the current one (no options for setting format)	19:34
till-	well. ls -le	19:35
matmo_	till-: thanks, "ls -le" does the trick	19:35
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VDVsx	hello :)	19:39
TrueJournals	Hello	19:40
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joyrider	a quick question do i need to generate a ssh key for the maemo extra's (dev) repos when i'm going to use the "Maemo Extras Assistant" ? or can i leave the fields blank	19:47
joyrider	k seems wiki is not up to date can't leave em blank :x	19:49
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wazd	I'm back	19:55
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Jaffa	joyrideer: talk to X-Fade, I thoughnt thnat had been fixed	20:15
joyrider	well i just created a key and putted that in but for the extra's assistant itself one doesn't need a key	20:21
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geoaxis	any startrek fans, i have a trekkie idea for maemo	20:25
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joyrider	i kinda like startrek :)	20:25
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geoaxis	i actually wanted to build this for a long time ...a general purpose voice controlled assistant	20:25
geoaxis	how would you like to say "tablet, how far am i from my home" and based on GPS readings it responds "blah kms"	20:26
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geoaxis	or you could as your tablet to check your schedule and if its free on sunday afternoon, fill it in with a lunch meeting	20:27
ShadowJK	Well there's one huge challenge and one big challenge in there. The huge one is making an AI that can understand questions. Good luck	20:27
geoaxis	ShadowJK: i am taking cue from Controlled English	20:27
ShadowJK	The other challenge is finding/making a voice recognition package that actually recognizes words without teaching	20:27
ShadowJK	or hell, even with teaching	20:28
geoaxis	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempto_Controlled_English	20:28
derf	And fitting it in the computational budget of a tablet.	20:28
geoaxis	derf: yeah that would be a problem ..but i was thinking in very limited command sets	20:29
ShadowJK	... and without blowing away batterylife :)	20:29
geoaxis	some thing which for example a driver would ask while driving	20:29
derf	Well, you can do that, and it has in fact been done.	20:29
geoaxis	derf: which app ?	20:30
derf	Nothing open source.	20:30
derf	Though there may be open source speech applications you can start from.	20:30
derf	The basic technology is fairly well-understood. It's still a lot of work to get going.	20:31
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geoaxis	derf: some thing which could fit in a 2 month schedule	20:32
derf	Haha, no.	20:32
derf	Try a five year schedule.	20:32
derf	And that assumes you know what you're doing when you start.	20:33
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lcuk	technically the right person with a pre-baked plan could implement it in 2 months, but thats nto the question	20:33
Atrus6	Well, isn't that something like today GPS that have voice command?	20:33
Atrus6	Just a bit more general?	20:33
geoaxis	lcuk: you mean ..how useable would it be in reality?	20:33
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lcuk	geoaxis, only the person with the vision to write the library and implement it would know that	20:34
lcuk	its certainly not the kind of thing you could just pickup from a textbook	20:34
geoaxis	derf: i also thought of a client/server model for this..where bigger computation could be offloaded to a server if its available	20:36
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derf	geoaxis: That might be feasible, but you're talking probably 48-64 kbps of data, which is still a lot.	20:37
ShadowJK	assuming voice recognition stuff still works after the voice gets butchered by compression?	20:38
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derf	ShadowJK: 48-64 kbps should get you plenty of quality for speech.	20:39
derf	If you really want to butcher it, you could go as low as 8kbps.	20:39
geoaxis	derf: well i was thinking more like intermediate voice recognition	20:39
geoaxis	and offloading the bigger work (of making sense of it and other computations)	20:40
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derf	geoaxis: Cepstral coefficients would be ~100 kbps.	20:42
derf	That's uncompressed... clearly you could do better by compressing them, but I don't know of anyone who's tried, whereas there's off-the-shelf things you can use for the audio itself.	20:43
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qole_pb-blog_028	interesting... logged on to maemo channel via PenguinBait's blog...	21:14
Stskeeps	yeah, we get a lot of loonies from there	21:15
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qole_pb-blog_028	heheh including me!	21:15
Stskeeps	never said that ;)	21:15
qole_pb-blog_028	no I distinctly remember typing it myself :D	21:16
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qole_pb-blog_028	I can see the problem with having an easy gate to the IRC	21:17
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Stskeeps	nah, i don't mind the easy gate - it's when it's hard to 1) tell the users apart and 2) that there seems to be some mindset amongst troublemakers that if they make trouble once, they come back again and again, not realizing they can just be /ignore'd :P	21:19
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Stskeeps	i'm a proponent of being able to apply electric shocks through the internet, would make the world a better place	21:19
Stskeeps	:P	21:20
qole_pb-blog_028	No, because someone would find a way to use it for porn	21:20
Stskeeps	and? ;)	21:21
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Stskeeps	besides that, congrats on the council spot	21:21
qole_pb-blog_028	Stskeeps, what do you think I should do now?	21:22
Stskeeps	qole_pb-blog_028: enjoy the minibar in the council lounge, possibly	21:22
qole_pb-blog_028	hahahahaha	21:22
Stskeeps	but anyway, i was happy to see that there is a majority in the council who thinks a community is about practising something as a community	21:23
Stskeeps	without an active community in terms of code/artwork/handy work on wiki/whatever, the community isn't anything	21:24
qole_pb-blog_028	I'm trying to figure out what extra things I should be doing as a Councillor. There's been no "initiation into the Council Secrets" ceremony or anything	21:24
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Stskeeps	ah, such as "the coordinates for the storage house we locked up darius at"	21:24
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qole_pb-blog_028	Or the release dates for the new devices :D	21:25
Stskeeps	i believe we'll probably have rx-51's by my birthday	21:26
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Stskeeps	announcements before, maybe, but yeah	21:26
Stskeeps	but that's a totally uneducated guess :)	21:26
* qole_pb-blog_028 checks Stskeep's ITT profile, but no birthdate		21:27
Stskeeps	ah, mid-july	21:27
qole_pb-blog_028	hmm, Stskeeps' not Stskeep's	21:27
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Stskeeps	but anyway - from mer POV i would like to know what the future role of the council should be in the mer projet - as mer is a maemo community project	21:29
Stskeeps	there seems to be support within the project for it, and to have the council have something besides the maemo.org site to rule over.. ;)	21:29
qole_pb-blog_028	I'm sticking to my prediction that RX-51 will be available by late June	21:29
Stskeeps	within the project = within the community	21:30
qole_pb-blog_028	I definitely think that the council should be Mer advocates, but since I don't have any idea what the Council is supposed to do (in a formal sense) I can't comment on what formal role the Council should have in Mer.	21:31
Stskeeps	well, if the project grows more there's bound to be some organisational stuff :P	21:32
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Stskeeps	(i don't see Mer as 'just' a backport project. i see it as a potential consumer grade system and research OS) :P	21:33
qole_pb-blog_028	So far, everyone I've asked has said that my role is to pay attention to all of the community channels (mailing lists, ITT, IRC) and help out where I can... play it by ear, mainly	21:33
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qole_pb-blog_028	I see Mer as a kind of Fedora to Maemo's Redhat; an unfettered community version of the "corporate" distribution	21:34
Stskeeps	well, i thought initially council was supposed also to be an "interface" to nokia for instance to push community issues	21:34
qole_pb-blog_028	Yes, but what exactly does that mean? Nobody's sure ;)	21:35
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qole_pb-blog_028	I bet Mer will be a viable alternative on MIDs and things like the new Asus touch-screen computer	21:36
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Stskeeps	yeah, we'll see where it leads	21:37
qole_pb-blog_028	Ah, its called the Asus Eee Top	21:38
Stskeeps	i personally want to see a wide market of low-cost tablets all shapes and sizes :P	21:38
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* qole_pb-blog_028 has to go eat some lunch....		21:39
Stskeeps	cya	21:39
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* RST38h moos		21:40
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Stskeeps	moo	21:41
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th3void	hello	21:48
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th3void	308 users and no coonversation....sad	21:57
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till-	start one :)	21:58
joyrider	beautifull weather aint it :)	21:58
till-	we hat snow today	21:58
joyrider	really ?	21:58
cmug	We have 30cm snow in the ground	21:58
till-	yes, when i woke up everything was white	21:59
till-	but melted during the day	21:59
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VDVsx	we have 25C now, and is almost night :P	22:01
till-	we had about 10C during the weekend	22:01
th3void	its about 24 deg c outside, partly cloudy	22:02
till-	where are you from?	22:03
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th3void	florida	22:03
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MangoFusion	anyone here got any experience with "dead" NIT's?	22:07
joyrider	hmm they can be bricked ?	22:07
Atrus6	NIT?	22:08
MangoFusion	i left NITDroid running on my N800 and it appears to be completely dead	22:08
joyrider	nokia internet tablet	22:08
Stskeeps	MangoFusion: you probably need to leave it trying to charge for a while. if you have another battery that's full, use this, and flash to newest image.	22:09
Atrus6	Oh.	22:09
VDVsx	MangoFusion, did you removed the battery ?	22:09
MangoFusion	yes i tried removing battery, turning on again, etc but doesn't seem to work	22:09
till-	my first n800 had the problem that it wouldn't turn on	22:10
MangoFusion	should i leave it "charging" perhaps?	22:10
till-	unless i left the charger plugged in for 1-2 days	22:10
VDVsx	MangoFusion, mine died one time, but was my fault, a full flash resolved the problem :p	22:11
MangoFusion	can't quite flash it if i can't turn it on :(	22:11
MangoFusion	aja	22:11
till-	did it work before?	22:11
MangoFusion	its alive	22:12
joyrider	do you see the "charging screen" if you plug in the adapater	22:12
joyrider	adaptor even	22:12
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MangoFusion	plugged the battery in again and seems to be starting again now 0_0	22:12
joyrider	ah :)	22:12
MangoFusion	thanks for the suggestions	22:12
MangoFusion	now i shall erase this POS NITDroid ;)	22:13
joyrider	btw isn't it so that the nit's can't be bricked ? since you can always do a full reflash or is it possible to brick that as well	22:13
till-	afaik you can always reflash	22:14
till-	unless it's a hardware mailfunction of course	22:14
qwerty12_N800	echo lcjhsguef > /dev/mtd0	22:14
MangoFusion	i've flashed a few times for various reasons, never had any permanent problems	22:14
joyrider	ah ok thought so good to know :)	22:14
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jeremiah_	Hmmm, getting "white screen of death' here.	22:15
MangoFusion	you'd pretty much have to flush it down the toilet or something	22:15
MangoFusion	before you started having real problems ;)	22:15
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till-	or get a bad device :)	22:16
MangoFusion	or that	22:16
MangoFusion	haha	22:16
till-	got mine replaced for free	22:16
jeremiah_	Well, mine has just seized up and will not boot	22:17
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jeremiah_	I wish it showed the boot messages like linux booting did, then I would have a way to know what was wrong.	22:17
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qwerty12_N800	it can be setup to do that, up to the point where the xserver starts	22:18
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MangoFusion	i'd rather it just booted up faster :D	22:18
qwerty12_N800	when i was using upstart, the boot times were much better but it hung on shutdown >.<	22:19
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Atrus6	Shut downs easy, just pull the battery	22:19
fabricio_	Hi everybody	22:20
qwerty12_N800	Haha, that's actually true for many of my 'shutdowns'	22:20
Atrus6	Hello	22:20
jeremiah_	Is there an alternative boot method? Holding down some key or something?	22:20
jeremiah_	I cannot get past the splash screen	22:20
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qwerty12_N800	Splash screen with the hands?	22:21
jeremiah_	qwerty12_N800: No, the splash screen with the blue bar. :)	22:21
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qwerty12_N800	Got an ext2 partition on a spare card somewhere?	22:22
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fabricio_	Can anybody help to solve this http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/read/79cd7b3c197111deac3739e9883e5be45be4/	22:22
jeremiah_	qwerty12_N800: Hmm, I don't think so. :/	22:22
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qwerty12_N800	Well, it's either that or having bootmenu installed :)	22:23
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qwerty12_N800	Which, is a little tricky to do outside a non working Maemo install	22:23
jeremiah_	yep	22:23
qwerty12_N800	s/,//	22:24
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infobot	qwerty12_N800 meant: Which is a little tricky to do outside a non working Maemo install	22:24
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qwerty12_N800	Have you tried powering it up by plugging in the charger by any chance?	22:25
VDVsx	fabricio_, this command works for you -> af-sb-init.sh start ?	22:26
fabricio_	yes	22:29
VDVsx	so you have hildon-home, I guess :P	22:29
fabricio_	I can see the Maemo window on Xephyr window	22:30
fabricio_	No =[	22:30
fabricio_	But the installation message was	22:31
fabricio_	"success"	22:31
fabricio_	I am trying to start the process and run any maemosdk5 example	22:32
* lcuk adds "wii repair" to list of things never to attempt again		22:32
jeremiah_	qwerty12_N800: Yeah, I just got the charger and plugged it in, rebooted, just the blue bar screen	22:32
jeremiah_	Going to start with the network (USB) cable plugged in	22:33
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VDVsx	fabricio_, well, you can start the Xephyr window, export the display and run "af-sb-init.sh start", and we will see what happens :P	22:35
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lbt	lcuk: what happened?	22:40
Proteous	I got a little red wagon	22:41
lcuk	lbt, 2 years of the kids messing finally made it turn into a dvd eating machine	22:42
lcuk	everytime you put a disk in it said "om nom nom"	22:42
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lbt	and taking it apart didn't help...	22:43
Razumihin	Have people been using some gtd system in maemo besides monkeyGTD?	22:44
Razumihin	Monkey is pretty good but god is it slow...	22:44
lcuk	lbt, actually it did - my screwdrivers arrived and i stripped it down and identified and rectified the problem	22:44
lcuk	and i managed to get it back together, but those damned little stickers covering over the screws make it look unsightly	22:45
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lbt	but working wii ?	22:46
lcuk	yeah tis	22:47
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lcuk	and there was much rejoicing for 5 minutes	22:48
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lbt	hi gnuton	22:48
lbt	lcuk: and then...	22:48
thopiekar	hi all	22:48
* lbt hasnt' seen a soap for ages...		22:48
lcuk	:D	22:48
gnuton	lbt: hello David :D	22:48
gnuton	hello guys	22:49
jeremiah_	Looks like I am going to have to flash the firmware.	22:49
thopiekar	hi gnuton	22:49
gnuton	hei thopiekar, lcuk, jeremiah_, ....	22:49
lcuk	then the house erupted in moans and complaints as tracy turned it off and put ice road truckers on... i got ear ache that i shouldnt have fixed it tonight and i had jake whining cos he wanted to play	22:49
gnuton	:D	22:49
thopiekar	:P	22:49
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lcuk	so now, i am never repairing the damned wii again	22:50
lbt	gnuton: ah, just saw the reply to Santtu ... good, glad you said that :)	22:50
qwerty12_N800	lcuk: you just can't win :p	22:50
lbt	lcuk: heh	22:50
lcuk	no, i cant	22:50
qwerty12_N800	hey gnuton	22:50
lcuk	hiya gnuton \o	22:50
lcuk	jeremiah_, you might need to a few times before you notice the warning signs ;)	22:51
lcuk	stay away from -devel repo and stick within the nokia bounds :P	22:51
gnuton	lbt: using the libosso is possible.. but it's insane..	22:51
lbt	I was talking a few days ago to someone in #qt - a troll I think,... and he said we should put the dbus stuff into QSession IIRC	22:51
lbt	100% agree!!!	22:51
gnuton	lbt: yes that's the right solution for the states..	22:52
jeremiah_	lcuk: What do you mean?	22:52
gnuton	lbt: there are a couple of things aroung D-Bus to do... in Qt.	22:52
qwerty12_N800	Something more insane is pointing your service file to a shell script - h-d won't kill them...	22:52
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gnuton	lbt: I cleaned a bit a my old code.. I hope to publish it soon.	22:53
lbt	(I'm hacking on the scroll stuff at the moment - I think the version is a bit fragile wrt scrollBars)	22:53
lbt	gnuton: good	22:53
lbt	I started the ossoInitialise()	22:53
lcuk	jeremiah_, joke re your brokenness :D	22:53
lbt	just to check the dbus messages	22:54
gnuton	lbt: cool :D	22:54
jeremiah_	lcuk: ah. :)	22:54
lbt	Kimmo mentioned some others that I'd seen - mem_low	22:54
lbt	etc	22:54
jeremiah_	I did not stick inside the nokia bounds, I downloaded things from -devel and that is when the trouble started	22:54
lbt	so I think we should get Nokia to spec what dbus messages to expect	22:54
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lcuk	i actually like the sound of dbus, i might do something with it one day	22:54
lbt	lcuk: it is quite a nice system if you have a sane API	22:55
lcuk	jeremiah_, its the same with any system though, once you go off the beaten path etc	22:55
lcuk	yeah i was wondering how ipc was performed beyond sockets and kernel file links	22:55
lbt	Qt does some auto-exposure of your object methods/slots/signals if I read it right.	22:55
lbt	which is magicool	22:55
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jeremiah_	true	22:57
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jeremiah_	Now nokia won't accept my WLAN number, sheesh	22:58
qwerty12_N800	Google, you can actually find a lot of N810 MACs...	22:59
jeremiah_	That's interesting, I thought I had the WiMax version, but I apparently don't.	22:59
jeremiah_	It accepted a ordinary N810 WLAN id	23:00
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lcuk	jeremiah_, you are sure you have an n810 arent you, just check if theres a keyboard or not :P	23:04
jeremiah_	heh	23:06
jeremiah_	Yes, there is a bloody keyboard lcuk. :P	23:07
lcuk	:D good good	23:07
jeremiah_	Now I am gonna flash it!	23:07
lcuk	that means we can also rule out you having an iphone :	23:07
lcuk	P	23:07
jeremiah_	wha? You mean I can't emulate my N810 on this iPhone?	23:07
lcuk	i think we can	23:09
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lcuk	its possible to emulate your current experience	23:09
lcuk	showscrollbar(); while(1) { }	23:09
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lcuk	performance might be a bit bad though - cos its emulated afterall	23:10
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jeremiah_	performance? Who cares about that?	23:10
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lcuk	lbt (or gnuton) since i have qt framework on my machine now (i installed shopper) does that mean i have everything from qt and i can just build and copy hundreds of qt apps onto here?	23:11
lcuk	and use all the kinds of widgets and all the helper classes?	23:11
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lbt	yes	23:12
lcuk	how large is qt-dev?	23:12
lbt	build?	23:12
lcuk	no, just the headers to link with what ive got here	23:12
lcuk	already	23:12
jeremiah_	Using Jaffa's GUI flasher	23:12
lcuk	cool jeremiah_ ive only ever used the windows flasher :$	23:13
lbt	not looked at the size of the debs and got none here...	23:13
lbt	apt-get install it and it'll tell you :)	23:13
lbt	make sure you don't get designer	23:13
lcuk	ive removed the repo and stuff	23:13
lbt	it's in extras-devel	23:14
lcuk	but i will need a designer eventually	23:14
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lbt	you can run designer on windows	23:14
lcuk	i wonder if it would handle designing yuv widgets	23:14
lbt	and copy the uic	23:14
lbt	files	23:14
lbt	to the tablet and compile there	23:14
lcuk	prefer native code - functional ui building sits in my mind better :)	23:14
lbt	the designer app needs too much screen estate to run on the tablet	23:14
lcuk	but for getting to know the interlinks the designer will be good	23:15
lbt	never used it :)	23:15
lcuk	yeah - most desktop apps do :)	23:15
lcuk	im used to using designers, in vb and .net i have to live in em	23:15
lbt	just ran it 'cos it was in the menu	23:15
lbt	yep	23:15
jeremiah_	Hmm, that didn't work. Have to tell Jaffa "No suitable USB device found."	23:15
lcuk	cow orker today had a major flap because he would have to do some layout work in code	23:15
lbt	aww, diddums	23:16
lcuk	hes so mollycoddled by the .net vb designer	23:16
lbt	show him Xlib sometime...	23:16
lcuk	its good to use these tools but to have an understanding of whats happening is good :)	23:16
lcuk	nahh, even worst enemies dont need to go there ;)	23:16
jeremiah_	Oy! I am not reading carefully, it is _supposed_ to say "Suitable device not found"	23:17
lcuk	jeremiah_, my n800 does that all the time :'(	23:17
lcuk	ive never ever ever been able to flash it	23:17
lcuk	jeremiah_, are you plugging it directly to the machine, or is it using a usb hub of some sort	23:18
lcuk	and on certain machines, some USB ports are lower class citizens than others - use the directly on motherboard ports for best change of having "direct" usb	23:19
lcuk	chance ^	23:19
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jeremiah_	It worked!	23:21
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jeremiah_	New firmware and the sweet little guy even booted.	23:21
jeremiah_	I'll be damned	23:21
lcuk	dont soun d so surprised	23:22
jeremiah_	heh	23:22
lcuk	nokia knows how to erase the contents of your device	23:22
TrueJournals	shameless plug for new version of mcedit http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27818 :D	23:23
lcuk	thats not shameless TrueJournals, we see you	23:23
lcuk	blushing	23:23
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* lcuk cannot type tonight		23:24
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TrueJournals	lol	23:24
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lbt	heh I have 724 downloads of Shopper :)	23:29
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MangoFusion	nice	23:33
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Proteous	sorry, I downloaded shopper 700 times to try to DDOS your server	23:54
Proteous	but 24 people really like it!!	23:55
lcuk	Proteous, don't forget, david downloaded it at least 4 times to confirm it worked	23:56
Proteous	heh	23:56
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