IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2008-05-25

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qwerty12_N800	"mgedmin: then again I'm a geek" :p :)	00:03
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mysc	well, debian now connects to my AP! one last hurdle...dhcpd is not listening on wlan0	00:04
sp3000	that's ok, I'll listen on your wlan0	00:06
GAN8001	sp3000 is such a pal	00:08
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mysc	hrmm, it listens on usb0 though, this might be the problem, will try disabling usb0	00:09
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n800n	there is no DS emulator for maemo, correct?	00:10
fireun	I'm starting to wonder if I was sane to even consider taking on a maemo project	00:11
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qwerty12_N800	n800n, theres extremely slow ome	00:11
fireun	setting up and using the build environment is such a cluster	00:11
sp3000	...of joy	00:11
sp3000	hmm	00:11
n800n	qwerty12_N800 do you remember names?	00:11
* sp3000 approves of the aesthetic principle of http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/56042_01.jpg		00:11
qwerty12_N800	desume (smth like that). search itt (but VERY slow)	00:12
fireun	sp3000: wheres the one for 2.5" or smaller drives?	00:12
fireun	oh wait, they come with their own cases	00:12
n800n	ty	00:12
sp3000	that one claims to eat 2.5" too	00:12
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sp3000	of course at that point the space overhead starts to become amusing	00:15
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n800n	http://www.sharenator.com/Flying_penis/	00:17
n800n	it sounds worse than it is and a lot funnier	00:18
n800n	than it sounds	00:18
qwerty12_N800	wtf :p	00:19
qwerty12_N800	load the fuel...	00:19
n800n	weird huh	00:19
qwerty12_N800	(pun intended)	00:19
mgedmin	okay, maemo-sdk step #3 completed	00:23
mgedmin	this is going to take hours	00:23
n800n	eww 10 fps.	00:24
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qwerty12_N800	.install files which don't specify a explicit distribution don't go down with diablo well :(	00:25
Proteous	http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153066	00:26
GAN8001	mgedmin, vmware image . . . ?	00:26
mgedmin	GAN8001: I already have scratchbox installed and working with all three targets	00:27
mgedmin	I want to play with this new experimental scratchbox2 toy	00:27
* qwerty12_N800 couldn't get sbox1 and sbox2 installed together on same system :/		00:27
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mgedmin	don't tell me I'm going to break my existing sbox1 install please	00:31
qwerty12_N800	nah, it's just that sbox2 wouldn't install for me. it may (hopefully) work fine for you	00:32
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mgedmin	sudo apt-get install maemo-sdk succeeded	00:34
mgedmin	sudo maemo-tools -m http://ftp.debian.org/debian succeeded	00:34
mgedmin	now running maemo-rootstrap install all	00:35
mgedmin	nope	00:35
mgedmin	/usr/bin/sb2-config: line 40: echo: write error: No space left on device	00:35
mgedmin	oops	00:35
mgedmin	I had 2.8 gigs free this morning	00:35
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n800n	oops	00:35
mgedmin	/opt/maemo is 1.1 gigs total	00:36
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mgedmin	apt-get clean freed half a gig	00:36
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mgedmin	okay, 2.9 gigs free	00:37
mgedmin	let's try maemo-rootstrap install all again	00:37
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mgedmin	ah, I also have a gig of data in ~/.maemo-sdk	00:39
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befr0d	Hi how do i use alt key on n810 kb?	00:42
pupnik	hi befr0d, for what software?	00:42
pupnik	hey mgedmin long time	00:43
befr0d	Screen	00:43
* mgedmin waves		00:43
mgedmin	befr0d: for any terminal app, to get alt+letter, press esc and then letter	00:43
mgedmin	esc is the big circled arrow key on the left of the screen	00:43
pupnik	o_O	00:43
* mgedmin waves at pupnik		00:44
mgedmin	another useful thing to know about terminal apps is that tab is ctrl+i	00:45
befr0d	Thanks that worked	00:45
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befr0d	I used esc kwy from the touchscreen	00:45
befr0d	Key*	00:45
befr0d	Still need to get used to this kb :)	00:46
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* pupnik is sad at big red line running up thinkpad screen		00:47
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mgedmin	the thinkpad is dead, long live the thinkpad	00:48
qwerty12_N800	pupnik, i've got a line like that on another dell monitor :(	00:48
GAN8001	pupnik, hit it with a stick.	00:48
mgedmin	time to get a new one	00:48
pupnik	mgedmin: man that's useful info	00:49
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qwerty12_N800	hehe	00:49
pupnik	sry i meant ctrl+i	00:49
pupnik	did not know that	00:49
nano-	Hi, I'm porting a program from desktop to maemo/hildon, and my lazyloading stopped working. On the desktop I intercept get_value in the GtkTreeModel interface, which allows me to dynamically load data into the tree view.	00:50
nano-	However.. on maemo/hildon, get_value is called for all rows even though I've set fixed height and stuff like that.	00:50
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nano-	What am I missing?	00:51
* lcuk is sad to see an all white pixel and next an all black pixel line running across on his laptop :(		00:52
befr0d	Is there any way to disable the tips that appear when yountype on the n810?	00:53
mgedmin	do I want binary packages in my chinook rootstrap?	00:53
qwerty12_N800	yes, i think it's closed stuff	00:53
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mgedmin	befr0d: I'm pretty sure you can do that in the control panel	00:54
befr0d	You type*	00:54
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lcuk	yes, settings control panel, text input settings, onscreen languages, untick	00:54
mgedmin	right, closed stuff -- but do I want it?	00:54
mgedmin	what's it good for?	00:54
mgedmin	running binary gui apps in xephyr?	00:54
qwerty12_N800	I can't remember, it's same as maemo-explict package in sbox1	00:55
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befr0d	that worked. thanks	00:56
mgedmin	okay, maemo-sdk setup is done	00:56
mgedmin	and the mistral target is unable to run C compiled programs	00:57
mgedmin	fail?	00:57
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mgedmin	same error in chinook target	00:58
mgedmin	running sb2 dpkg-buildpackage without the -d script gives an interesting intermission	00:59
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mgedmin	but otoh I don't seem to have any problems with fakeroot	01:00
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befr0d	does the x server on n810 accept external connections?	01:00
mgedmin	it shouldn't	01:01
befr0d	but its possible to make it listen rigth?	01:01
mgedmin	and netstat confirms that it isn't listening on tcp	01:02
befr0d	right*	01:02
mgedmin	you can use ssh's x forwarding	01:02
mgedmin	if you run ssh from osso-xterm	01:02
befr0d	ok let me see	01:02
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mgedmin	oh, hey, sbox 1 doesn't work either	01:05
mgedmin	I haven't tried if after the upgrade to ubuntu hardy	01:06
mgedmin	at least it tells me what to do	01:06
qwerty12_N800	disable vdso and lower mmap (?) value	01:06
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mgedmin	right	01:06
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mgedmin	sb-login tells me half of it (the vdso thing)	01:07
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mgedmin	ah, the other magic command is	01:09
mgedmin	echo 4096 \| sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/mmap_min_addr	01:09
mgedmin	looks like both scratchboxes work now	01:09
qwerty12_N800	I edited sysctl to make it permanent	01:10
mgedmin	hm, interesting error	01:11
mgedmin	ERROR: ld.so: object 'libsb2.so.1' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.	01:11
mgedmin	at the end of the build	01:11
mgedmin	looks like this is when it tried to gpg sign my .changes file	01:11
mgedmin	okay the instructions at http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html work for me after the sysctl changes on ubuntu hardy	01:12
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mgedmin	cost in disk space: 3.2 gigs	01:12
mgedmin	plus whatever the maemo-sdk deb and its dependencies weigh	01:13
qwerty12_N800	for everything else, there's mastercard	01:13
* mgedmin gives in and adds the SDK repository to sources.list on hisl N810		01:14
* mgedmin wants strace, and gdb, and xauth		01:14
mgedmin	hey, where's xauth?	01:14
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mgedmin	well, it's an opportunity to test sb2 for real	01:19
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mgedmin	why does xauth depend on the C preprocessor?	01:29
mgedmin	bizzare	01:30
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mgedmin	uh, oh, I'm out of disk space on my n810	01:32
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KotCzarny	clone to sd	01:36
l7__	how do you clone?	01:40
KotCzarny	~maemoclone	01:40
l7__	hmm	01:40
l7__	google finds nothing for that	01:40
KotCzarny	what was the link to the deb?	01:41
KotCzarny	infobot: maemoclone is http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19639	01:41
infobot	KotCzarny: okay	01:41
KotCzarny	~maemoclone	01:41
infobot	rumour has it, maemoclone is http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19639	01:41
l7__	ah interesting, thanks	01:41
l7__	it's funny that it was not indexed by search engines	01:42
l7__	does this only work with the n810?	01:43
GAN8001	Google finds tons of stuff for me. :P	01:43
GAN8001	Any NIT. . . .	01:43
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KotCzarny	l7: n8x0	01:43
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Johnny5	That link is painful on the eyes.	01:44
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l7__	heh	01:44
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mgedmin	yay, ssh X forwarding works in the other direction too, now that I've installed xauth	01:45
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mgedmin	har har har	01:46
KotCzarny	mgedmin: having fun with linux?	01:46
mgedmin	I've maemo-mapper running on my n810 displaying on a window on my laptop	01:46
mgedmin	the gtk theme doesn't work, as there's no sapwood-server running	01:47
mgedmin	but I can resize the maemo mapper window to any size I like	01:47
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mgedmin	hm, osso-xterm opens on the device screen despite my $DISPLAY setting	01:48
mgedmin	some maemo-launcher dbus magic is interfering	01:48
mgedmin	but the whole point of the excercise is that I can now transfer the clipboard with xsel via X forwarding	01:48
mgedmin	... um	01:49
mgedmin	stoopid!	01:51
mgedmin	ssh X forwarding is entirely unnecessary when all I want to do is	01:51
mgedmin	xsel \| ssh mg-n810 'xsel -b --display :0'	01:51
KotCzarny	:)	01:52
* mgedmin yawns		01:55
mgedmin	goodnight, all	01:55
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jldiaz	hello	02:07
jldiaz	I've installed mpd in the n810	02:07
jldiaz	I like the separation between server and interface (client)	02:08
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jldiaz	however, I noticed a much higher CPU consuption while playing music than with other players (mplayer, osso-media-serv)	02:09
jldiaz	mpd uses about 30% CPU, while others only 0.1%	02:09
jldiaz	I assume that this because the audio decoding is done by the CPU instead the DSP	02:09
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jldiaz	there are plans of a optimzed maemo port?	02:11
jldiaz	In fact, mpd could be only a wrapper around osso-media-serv	02:12
jldiaz	translating tcp/ip mpd commands into dbus messages to osso-media-serv	02:12
KotCzarny	0.1% is a lie	02:13
KotCzarny	and top is not a benchmark	02:14
jldiaz	anyway...	02:14
KotCzarny	infobot: top is not a benchmark	02:14
infobot	...but top is already something else...	02:14
KotCzarny	~top	02:14
infobot	it has been said that top is acting funky - keeps segfaulting - that's an old problem I know	02:14
jldiaz	if it uses CPU instead of DSP, I assume that this shortens the battery life	02:14
KotCzarny	infobot: forget top	02:14
infobot	i forgot top, KotCzarny	02:14
KotCzarny	infobot: top is not a benchmark	02:14
infobot	okay, KotCzarny	02:14
jldiaz	KotCzarny, what should I use instead?	02:15
KotCzarny	decode to file or /dev/null and check the time taken	02:15
jldiaz	but... let's suppose that the code contains some waiting loop	02:16
jldiaz	instead of blocking	02:16
jldiaz	this would make a high CPU consumption	02:16
jldiaz	detectable by top	02:16
KotCzarny	nope	02:16
KotCzarny	waiting loop doesn't take cpu	02:16
KotCzarny	unless it's braindeadly written	02:17
KotCzarny	:)	02:17
jldiaz	I mean, not sleeping	02:17
jldiaz	yes, I'm refering to that kind of waiting loops	02:17
KotCzarny	then don't use such decoder	02:17
GAN8001	jldiaz, the DSP is more efficient at decoding MP3s, but with the default kernel, things get locked to 330MHz when DSP is in use	02:17
GAN8001	Which may actually mean more battery usage if that 30% is at 165MHz. . . .	02:17
jldiaz	that's interesting, GAN8001	02:18
GAN8001	Battery usage when using the DSP, rather.	02:18
jldiaz	however I noticed a much more battery draining using mpd than using, say, mplayer	02:18
* GAN8001 hasn't actually done any testing.		02:18
jldiaz	has this some sense?	02:18
KotCzarny	jldiaz: well, you can make a test	02:19
KotCzarny	but it will take some time	02:19
jldiaz	my point is, if the decoder is really badly coded, and wastes CPU cycles, how could I detect it?	02:19
KotCzarny	ie. charge up your nokia	02:19
jldiaz	According to KotCzarny, top is not the way	02:19
KotCzarny	then play mp3 in a loop until battery is dead	02:19
jldiaz	but decoding to /dev/null and timing is not either	02:19
KotCzarny	measure time	02:19
KotCzarny	then, charge again	02:19
KotCzarny	and decode in a loop using another decoder	02:20
KotCzarny	and measure time again	02:20
KotCzarny	that will give you true answer how well it performs	02:20
KotCzarny	:)	02:20
jldiaz	yes KotCzarny, I agree this would be the undeniable way, but... :-)	02:20
jldiaz	I involuntary performed a different test	02:20
jldiaz	I had the battery almost discharged	02:21
KotCzarny	:)	02:21
jldiaz	then, I plugged the charger	02:21
jldiaz	and played some music with mpd	02:21
jldiaz	for about two hors	02:21
jldiaz	hours	02:21
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jldiaz	when I stopped the music and unplugged the charger, the batery was still almost empty	02:21
jldiaz	that alarmed me	02:21
jldiaz	in other occasions, in a similar scenario but with mplayer instead of mpd, the battery gets half charged	02:22
jldiaz	does this means something about the decoder? or is my battery becoming to die...?	02:22
jldiaz	(starting to die, was what I meant)	02:23
KotCzarny	it only means that mpd discharges your battery faster when using it as player	02:23
KotCzarny	:)	02:23
jldiaz	ok, this is what I thought	02:23
jldiaz	then, I used top to compare CPU usage among mpd and mplayer	02:23
jldiaz	with the aforementionated results	02:23
KotCzarny	~top	02:23
infobot	hmm... top is not a benchmark	02:23
jldiaz	which points in the same direction	02:23
KotCzarny	:)	02:23
jldiaz	I know, I know.. :)	02:23
jldiaz	anyway, 30% vs. 0.1% has to mean something	02:24
Knirch	no	02:24
jldiaz	even if both are lies :-)	02:24
Knirch	actually, it means that one is not the other	02:24
KotCzarny	top won't catch apps which use cpu in very short intervals	02:24
jldiaz	KotCzarny, ok, but these apps are more battery conservative, then	02:25
Knirch	jldiaz: have you tested that?	02:25
KotCzarny	not necessarily	02:25
KotCzarny	:)	02:25
Knirch	or are you basing it on the values we shall not mention again	02:25
jldiaz	my point is that the CPU% reported by top is proportional to the battery consumption of the app.	02:25
jldiaz	ok, not linearly, but proportional	02:25
KotCzarny	not necessarily	02:25
KotCzarny	:)	02:26
KotCzarny	i don't know if it would work but try setting interval to 0.1	02:26
KotCzarny	s	02:26
KotCzarny	:)	02:26
jldiaz	ok, but mpd discharged my battery faster than mplayer	02:26
jldiaz	so this implies a more inefficient implementation	02:27
fireun	tricks are expensive	02:27
jldiaz	so, coming to my original cuestion...	02:27
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jldiaz	there is someone working in a more optimized mpd for tablets?	02:27
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fireun	there's a lot of people working on a lot of similar things, but nothing really well done anywhere much	02:28
fireun	there are way too many media players for the maemo platform	02:28
jldiaz	and my other question (answered by Knirch, I don't know if the others agree)	02:28
fireun	so since mpd "works" I doubt it gets too much attention	02:28
KotCzarny	there is no such thing as too many apps	02:29
jldiaz	would it be more battery conservative a DSP based implementation?	02:29
KotCzarny	:)	02:29
jldiaz	Knirch answered: on the contrary	02:29
fireun	KotCzarny: too many -different- apps	02:29
fireun	KotCzarny: I agree	02:29
KotCzarny	fireun: i would agree if it was, too many different protocols	02:29
Knirch	I've not answered anything	02:29
Knirch	I've questioned your _assumptions_	02:29
fireun	KotCzarny: but if there are many, and they suck uniformly, and none really give much feature advantage... then there are too many	02:29
KotCzarny	if they all use common ipc, then it's fine	02:29
jldiaz	Knirch, ok, I stand corrected	02:29
KotCzarny	isn't it?	02:29
KotCzarny	:)	02:30
jldiaz	so my question remains unanswered :-)	02:30
Knirch	jldiaz: from a user interaction point of view, anything that can be done elsewhere and leave cycles for your main cpu will improve your experience, but says nothing about battery drainage	02:31
Knirch	(depending on how everything is connected and if they share memory bus, if the app is memory intensive, etc, etc, etc, etc)	02:31
jldiaz	Knirch, aha... But since I'm interested in the case of playing music. while no other activity is performed in the tablet, I'm mostly interested in battery life	02:32
jldiaz	and looking for efficient players (in this sense)	02:32
lcuk	jldiaz, if the cpu has clocked itself down to powersave speed (166mhz) then any process running at that will be showing as higher cpu usage than the same app running under the 400mhz performance branch.	02:32
KotCzarny	lcuk: that doesn't apply if you use dsp	02:32
jldiaz	lcuk, that is interesting too...	02:32
lcuk	and if the app uses the DSP versus the cpu then similar swings can occur	02:32
KotCzarny	cpu is set to 330/220 then no matter what cpufreq you have set	02:33
Knirch	jldiaz: I'd say: fully charge your nokia, play the same song on repeat, measure the time it takes until it shuts down. Do repeat with next player, and next.. and next..	02:33
jldiaz	so in the end, the only experiment which could give me a true answer, would be the one suggested by KotCzarny	02:33
KotCzarny	(or 400/133 if you use op_patch)	02:33
Knirch	jldiaz: and do NOTHING else with it for the duration	02:33
lcuk	KotCzarny, o-rly, powersave=166, ondemand between 166 and 400, performance 400	02:33
KotCzarny	lcuk: play some mp3, check again	02:33
KotCzarny	:)	02:34
jldiaz	Knirch, could you think in some way of perform this experiment automatically, i.e. without my supervision?	02:34
KotCzarny	(using dsp decoder of course)	02:34
lcuk	when dsp in action i know - i was playing on hooiday and the max top total super speed dropped	02:34
GAN800	fireun, you're working under the assumption that work going into many mediocre media players is work that would otherwise go into one awesome one, which is a stupid assumption. . . .	02:34
KotCzarny	lcuk: it's not dropped	02:34
KotCzarny	it's set	02:34
KotCzarny	no matter what is cpu load	02:34
KotCzarny	it's locked to dsp op freq	02:34
KotCzarny	:)	02:34
Knirch	GAN800++	02:34
lcuk	yer, the upper limit changes from 400 without dsp to whatever it is when running dsp	02:35
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KotCzarny	lcuk: install kernel with op patch for a test	02:35
jldiaz	I think that I could write a small program which measures the time between its starting and the notification of "low-battery", and writes that time in some log...	02:35
KotCzarny	and you can choose what op mode dsp should use	02:35
KotCzarny	:)	02:35
fireun	GAN800: I think you assuming what I'm assuming is... well, inaccurate (:	02:36
KotCzarny	so you could test your app with standard and hacked speeds without reboot	02:36
KotCzarny	:)	02:36
GAN800	jldiaz, battery-monitor cab do x time reports.	02:36
GAN800	It is, fireun.	02:36
jldiaz	I assume that programs receive some kind of signal on low-battery condition	02:36
KotCzarny	jldiaz: yes, kill	02:36
KotCzarny	;)	02:36
GAN800	jldiaz, nitapps.com	02:36
KotCzarny	when the systems goes down :)	02:36
lcuk	"AWOOGA AWOOGA, ABANDON SHIP!"	02:37
jldiaz	hehe, KotCzarny	02:37
jldiaz	I meant, before that	02:37
jldiaz	when the alert appears on screen	02:37
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KotCzarny	probably some info on dbus	02:37
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KotCzarny	but you have to listen to it	02:37
KotCzarny	:)	02:37
jldiaz	ok, I can do some research about that	02:37
GAN800	fireun, if you've got such an awesome idea for a media player, why don't you join a project and help make it that? :)	02:38
KotCzarny	hrm	02:39
KotCzarny	i should find me some breakfast	02:39
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GAN800	I've got a dual-monitor N800 setup going here . . . TV on one, irc/web on the other.	02:44
* KotCzarny has quadruple-monitor setup		02:45
KotCzarny	1x 1600x1200, 2x1024x768, 1x800x480	02:45
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fireun	GAN800: there you go assuming again (:	02:47
fireun	I dont believe I said anything to that affect	02:48
fireun	or effect either	02:48
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KotCzarny	affected effect	02:48
fireun	heh, yes.	02:48
* KotCzarny has pierogi		02:49
fireun	is that like french orange juice?	02:49
KotCzarny	nope	02:49
fireun	is it a legal word?	02:49
KotCzarny	depends	02:49
KotCzarny	in the same way as pizza	02:50
fireun	like dictionary word	02:50
KotCzarny	:)	02:50
KotCzarny	http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/6/63/250px-Ruskie.jpg	02:50
KotCzarny	:)	02:50
KotCzarny	http://www.answers.com/topic/pierogi	02:50
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KotCzarny	:)	02:50
fireun	like wontons, but different	02:50
GAN800	Then quit yer bitching, fireun. ;)	02:50
fireun	and I'm hungry either way	02:51
fireun	GAN800: yer funny	02:51
fireun	KotCzarny: excellent!	02:51
fireun	polish dimsum	02:51
fireun	KotCzarny: what kind of sauce do you (if at all) dip it in?	02:52
KotCzarny	none	02:52
KotCzarny	they are filled with cheese	02:52
fireun	oooh	02:52
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KotCzarny	white (cottage?) cheese	02:52
fireun	all I've had is some toast, coffee, bananna bread, and coffee today	02:53
fireun	not necessarily in that order	02:53
KotCzarny	make cheese sandwich	02:53
KotCzarny	:)	02:53
KotCzarny	*a	02:53
fireun	right, theres quesadillas being made, very close and I may have to step out and get one. (:	02:53
KotCzarny	;)	02:53
fireun	hmm, grilled cottage cheese sandwitch... that, may not be advisable.	02:54
KotCzarny	sand witch?	02:54
KotCzarny	;)	02:54
fireun	sorry, for some reason the spell checker isnt working	02:54
* KotCzarny never uses spell checkers		02:54
KotCzarny	(other than builtin in my brain of course)	02:55
KotCzarny	:)	02:55
* fireun thinks KotCzarny just got it		02:55
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dick-richardson	i wish I'd have known what I know about ssh 10 years ago	03:17
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mza-	do you guys talk about hardware here or just software?	03:58
GAN8001	Everything from software to firearms.	03:58
mza-	oh cool	03:58
mza-	well, i ordered my N810	03:58
mza-	should be here later this week	03:58
mza-	and i had some questions	03:58
GAN8001	grats	03:58
mza-	i wanted to try and get my CDU-550 modem to work	03:59
mza-	it seems all you need is usbserial.ko	03:59
mza-	my question is about getting it powered	03:59
mza-	in usb host mode, how much can the N810 produce through usb?	04:00
AStorm	100 mA	04:00
AStorm	AKA low power USB	04:00
AStorm	at most 2 such devices	04:01
mza-	CDMA Max < 700mA	04:02
mza-	ok	04:02
mza-	so id need another power source	04:02
AStorm	yes, a powered hub	04:02
mza-	http://www.cyberpowersystems.com:80/products/accessories/usb_hubs/cph420mp.html	04:02
mza-	would that work?	04:02
AStorm	most likely	04:03
AStorm	check what the batteries are - if it's possible to find replacements	04:03
mza-	4 double A's	04:03
AStorm	ah, so just get it	04:04
mza-	sorry	04:04
mza-	truple A	04:04
AStorm	it's a bit large for a device as small as N810 still :>	04:04
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mza-	and what;s the word on silverlight?	04:06
mza-	moonlight	04:07
mza-	or whatever	04:07
mza-	id really like to watch my baseball games;)	04:07
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mza-	and that hub doesnt look that big	04:09
mza-	i could prolly fit the N810 and that in a pocket pretty easily	04:10
beford	there are ports of mono already availible	04:10
beford	available*	04:10
mza-	so that would give me the ability to view sites that use silverlight?	04:11
beford	http://ecanuto.blogspot.com/2008/05/mono-191-and-winforms-available-for.html	04:13
beford	its just mono	04:13
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GAN800	Hey, milhouse, what's the word?	04:32
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milhouse	umm...not much... network problems :)	04:35
GAN800	Ah, right, the 103.	04:37
GAN800	s/103/113/	04:37
infobot	GAN800 meant: Ah, right, the 113.	04:37
cactaur	Hi, I'm having trouble with mogg. I tried installing it and got an error that libvorbisidec1 was missing. I previously installed ogg-support, but uninstalled it when I found out that mogg handled tags. Can anyone help find out what's wrong?	04:37
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cactaur	Am I supposed to be root to use apt-get?	04:47
GAN800	yes	04:48
GAN800	~easyroot	04:48
infobot	methinks easyroot is an easy way to get root access on OS2008 and can be found at http://nitapps.com	04:48
cactaur	thanks	04:50
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mysc	ok, it was a false alarm, still can't get wireless on johnx's distrib	04:56
mysc	i think his "wireless just works" comment on the wiki is a bit off mark :)	04:56
GAN800	Works fine here. . . .	04:57
mysc	GAN, mind pasting your /etc/network/interfaces (x'ing out the psk of course).	05:00
GAN800	Non-existent at the moment.	05:01
GAN800	I nuked the card two days ago in preparation for a resetup for Diablo.	05:01
summatusmentis	interesting, full debian	05:01
GAN800	Haven't gotten around to it yet.	05:01
mysc	did you do any significant tweaking or just add the wpa lines in that file?	05:02
GAN800	Just changed/added the appropriate lines.	05:03
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mysc	no need to issue iwconfig or ifconfig commands, then...	05:04
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cactaur	All right, I think I took care of it!	05:07
summatusmentis	cactaur: you also spend time in pharyngula? :)	05:08
cactaur	summatusmentis: I didn't know you were here too!	05:08
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summatusmentis	lol, just purchased an N810	05:08
summatusmentis	I really need to stop spending so much time on irc, you're in here, natefoo is in #openafs	05:09
summatusmentis	it's scary	05:09
cactaur	hahahahah	05:09
summatusmentis	so, you have an N8x0 series, at least, I hope	05:10
cactaur	yeah	05:11
cactaur	N800	05:11
summatusmentis	cool, do you do anything interesting with it?	05:12
summatusmentis	I'm looking to hack on my N810 to make it almost as usable as my lappy	05:12
cactaur	Well, as far as I know, the only thing a tablet can't do that a laptop can is type quickly. And you can get a bluetooth keyboard to fix that problem.	05:13
cactaur	I've got Pidgin because I don't think I can convince all of my friends to use Jabber.	05:15
summatusmentis	well, N810 has a thumb board, I'm relatively proficient	05:15
cactaur	Ah... well.... lucky you! I just managed to get ogg support on my N800.... but it didn't work out the way I wanted it to.	05:16
cactaur	The media player hasn't read my tags.	05:16
mysc	don't super type on a bt kb though, you'll overload it and it'll do funky stuff	05:16
cactaur	oh, hahaha	05:17
mysc	i was speed-typing a reply email to my boss and i wrote "i appreciate your feedback and..." and it turned into "fuck you, asshole"	05:18
cactaur	hahahaha	05:18
GAN800	cactar, jabber transports, rtcomm beta or the appropriate telepathy addon from colabora.	05:18
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cactaur	I've read that there aren't really that great transports for Yahoo! Messenger.	05:19
mysc	pidgin does yahoo, not sure how good/bad it is	05:19
GAN800	pidgin sucks hard on the tablets.	05:19
mysc	oh?	05:20
GAN800	Taked up a taskbar slot all the time, you always haave to think about it.	05:20
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GAN800	rtcomm is all automatic and pain free.	05:20
mysc	oh yeh, i removed the taskbar slot in preferences	05:20
GAN800	cactaur, look at the colabora telepathy addons or rtcomm beta, then.	05:21
mysc	how do you make the matchbox kb black and not the default white?	05:21
cactaur	Well, I only use pidgin when I can't use my Desktop. If pidgin becomes intolerable enough, I could probably just use gizmo.	05:23
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GAN800	Gizmo still sucks	05:26
GAN800	seriously, just ise the built-in rtcomm that doesn't suck. It does sip for Gizmo, too.	05:27
mysc	a lot of hte screenshots i see show a black kb how do i get one?	05:27
mysc	hrmm, guess no easier way than editing the images or getting a theme with a black one..	05:31
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summatusmentis	erm... I should stop changing the ssid's on routers my parents don't own	05:38
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mysc	manually making a new theme is too time consuming	06:01
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KotCzarny	there are templates	06:04
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dmsuperman	php	06:11
dmsuperman	whoops	06:11
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lopz	night	06:24
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summatusmentis	does KOffice read/write do MS formats?	06:35
summatusmentis	also, is there a way to tell how good the maps are for a certain area on maemo mapper?	06:41
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WorkingOnWise	I hope someone is up....how is this for wierd. I started the map app, and after around 45 secs, my IT rebooted. Now, it will boot into the OS on flash, but if I try booting into the OS on the SD card, it reboots when it should switch from the text boot message to the pretty Nokia hands....	06:47
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zpol	hi	07:16
zpol	how use the libgtkmozembed+python?	07:17
zpol	import gtkmozembed?	07:17
zpol	not module :(	07:17
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zpol	any ideas?	07:20
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cactaur	pssst.... does anyone use GrandCentral?	08:35
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Jaffa	Morning, all	09:43
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eichi	is there a good geocaching software for maemo?	11:06
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keesj	eichi: not that I am aware of	11:24
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MipsIr1	can anyone point me to docs on making the debian packages? not much of a debian user	11:47
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mysc	hrmmm, my nit just killed my internal 4gb card.	12:33
qwerty12	:(	12:33
mysc	i was booted into part 3 (debian) rebooted and fanoush didn't recognize anything.	12:33
qwerty12	Tried the kiss of life on it?	12:33
mysc	hah, what's that?	12:33
qwerty12	fsck? :P	12:34
qwerty12	Due to an error in my bad scripting skills, I am now able to boot into debian after about a week.	12:34
mysc	the nit doesn't recognize it and i don't have an sdhc reader	12:34
qwerty12	Try plugging the usb cable in regardless and seeing if anything new comes in /dev	12:35
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mysc	hrmmm	12:36
qwerty12	Hopefully, at least you may be able to do an sfdisk.	12:37
mysc	i'll try but i have to boot my linux box. what could cause this other than faulty card?	12:37
mysc	is there any known problem on n8x0 killing cards?	12:37
KotCzarny	mysc: does sfdisk -l show your card?	12:38
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mysc	nope	12:43
mysc	maybe i just got a shit card. it's patriot	12:44
mysc	lasted a whole 4 days	12:44
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KotCzarny	hmm	12:45
KotCzarny	maybe contacts are bad	12:45
qwerty12	Wow, that is shit. I paid £21 (round $42) for 8GB class 2 SDHC card and I've abused it and it still works fine :p	12:46
KotCzarny	try removing and reinserting?	12:46
KotCzarny	people, hear ya, qwerty speaketh truth	12:46
qwerty12	hehe	12:46
mysc	yeah ive removed it and reinserted	12:46
KotCzarny	mysc and still nothing?	12:47
* KotCzarny used 4 and 8 gb sd cards in n800		12:47
mysc	this is 4gb class 6 using an adaptor	12:47
mysc	when i put the included nokia card in the same adaptor and slot it detects it. so its not the nit, it's the card	12:48
mysc	oh well, bad way to end the evening. i had even finalized my tweaking of johnx's beta.	12:51
* qwerty12 just finished flashing custom kernel :)		12:54
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mysc	do you all use the internal card for swap or leave it at the nand 128 mem?	13:44
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jldiaz	at then 128M there is no swap memory	13:59
jldiaz	I use the external card (I own a n810)	13:59
jldiaz	http://omag.es/blog/2008/05/20/virtual-memory-on-the-n810s-external-card/	14:00
AStorm	blah blah, what about it?	14:01
qwerty12	jldiaz, That isn't your blog by any chance?	14:01
jldiaz	well, more or less	14:01
jldiaz	it is a blog shared among 4 authors	14:01
jldiaz	altough only two had written something up to now	14:02
jldiaz	(have written)	14:02
jldiaz	?	14:02
jldiaz	excuse my english	14:02
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gimmal	hey all	14:10
flo_lap	hi gimmal	14:11
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gimmal	hey, anyone might know what java versions jalimo would support? looking at a schweet lil wysiwyg java xml editor, but it req's java >=1.5	14:11
gimmal	oxygenxml, fwiw: http://www.oxygenxml.com/	14:11
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RST38h	kill kill	14:13
AStorm	whom?	14:14
* gimmal volunteers >\|^)		14:14
gimmal	fwiw, was thinking that a good-enough java-based wysiwyg [X]HTML editor could be a convenient replacement in lieu of abiword/OOo	14:16
gimmal	the question, then, "what is 'good enough'?" hehehe	14:16
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RST38h	AStorm: java, xml, java xml editors	14:19
AStorm	RST38h: yeah, kill	14:19
RST38h	hehe	14:20
AStorm	I now get to do some XSLT	14:20
RST38h	hehehe	14:20
* RST38h lost 2 weeks trying to make use of XSLT		14:20
RST38h	Finally found out that the only usable XSLT processor is "StarletXML", XSLT 1.x is near useless (not event pattern matching works) and XSLT 2.x not implemented by anybody	14:21
RST38h	Ended up using PERL.	14:21
AStorm	RST38h: :>	14:23
AStorm	I wonder, can Firefox directly run XSLT?	14:23
RST38h	it should	14:24
RST38h	the mention correct xslt document url in your xml	14:24
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AStorm	good	14:24
RST38h	the real question is whether you should use a standard made up by indian "programmers" with limited knowledge of visual basic	14:25
RST38h	that relates both to xslt and xpath	14:25
AStorm	RST38h: the question is not of "should", as I shouldn't	14:25
AStorm	but I have to :\|	14:26
RST38h	no regexp. no joins. basic constructs take 4-5 times the amount of space taken by actual replacements	14:26
AStorm	I know it's horrible	14:26
RST38h	Oh, have I forgotten "no includes"? :)	14:26
AStorm	like most xml	14:26
AStorm	ouch :>	14:27
RST38h	Actually, there is a SEPARATE XML standard for includes, but nobody implements it of course	14:27
AStorm	:P	14:27
* RST38h ended up running xml documents through CPP		14:27
AStorm	hehehe	14:28
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blafasel	Java isn't bad imo. The mess of three letter acronyms for billions of "standards" in the java world is. And I've never found a good use for XML other than XMPP ;)	14:29
AStorm	even XMPP is overrated	14:30
AStorm	Java is bad due to it's rigidity and prevalent weak programmers you have to scrub code after	14:31
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gimmal	fwiw, saxon is a good (java) xslt processor. in foss land, gnome's libxml can doit too, usually	14:36
gimmal	saxon is foss too, and libxml just ain't java hehe	14:36
gimmal	good or bad	14:37
RST38h	gimmal: wrong place to ask	14:37
RST38h	join some java forum and ask the indians =)	14:37
gimmal	AStorm: firefox should be able to use xslt, yeah, so long as the page has the right <?stylesheet ..?> kind of thing in it	14:37
gimmal	ah, wasn't meaning to ask "good or bad?" just saying, take it how y'will hehe	14:37
* gimmal likes java a HELL of a lot more than common lisp, fwiw		14:38
AStorm	gimmal: and I like Common Lisp more than Java ;P	14:38
AStorm	and like Python more than Common Lisp	14:38
AStorm	;P	14:38
AStorm	hell, I like C++ more than Java	14:38
* gimmal spent a good(?) long time beating his head against the bit-wall with common lisp; java is easier to draw a bead on, imo		14:39
AStorm	not to mention C# (except stupid M$-bound)	14:39
AStorm	gimmal: not really	14:39
AStorm	you just didn't get functional programming	14:39
AStorm	it's like math	14:39
gimmal	AStorm: nah, that wasn't the issue; was trying to do too much with cl heh	14:39
gimmal	can't even bother with java <:^)>	14:39
AStorm	yeah, CL needs strong libs	14:39
AStorm	as it's very basic on its own	14:40
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gimmal	java doesn't have metaclass/metaobject support like CL with MOP, that limits its functionality to a large extent, but it's still a very usable language	14:40
gimmal	well, to say it limits its functionality, come to think of it, I think that's nonsense. java can't be java and have MOP support, I wonder	14:40
AStorm	It can be, look at Python. It's Java done (almost) right	14:41
AStorm	it could use some more static typing sometimes	14:41
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AStorm	Ruby is even more OOP, but implementation sucks a bit	14:42
gimmal	well, maybe, but MOP doesn't fit into java, though. there are no 'slot definitions' in java classes, just fields	14:42
AStorm	no difference	14:42
gimmal	big difference hehe	14:42
AStorm	just make another special marker, like "slot"	14:42
gimmal	ever played around with extending CL MOP support?	14:42
AStorm	there is already static public final synchronized	14:42
AStorm	;P	14:43
AStorm	No, I wasn't that much into Lisp.	14:43
gimmal	MOP is a big, heavy architecture, fwiw; it kind of all depends on itself, even	14:43
AStorm	overdone I guess	14:43
AStorm	never used it	14:43
gimmal	makes a challenge for CL VM builders - bootstrap code & what	14:43
AStorm	in Python, metaclasses are nice and simple	14:43
AStorm	and useful :D	14:43
gimmal	well, I think it fits the bill pretty well, for common lisp. it's just that I can't get anywhere with common lisp programming, that's the main issue of that language, for me >^)	14:44
gimmal	GUI support in CL sucks, also. CLIM is barley "standardized", and not completely supported in the one FOSS impl of it	14:45
AStorm	yep	14:45
AStorm	that's the one reason I love Python - there are bindings	14:45
AStorm	and it's fairly easy to write yours too	14:45
gimmal	cool; i haven't dabbled in python, but I've always heard well of it.	14:46
gimmal	as opposed to the nefarious PERL, muhahah	14:46
AStorm	Ruby is Perl done right	14:47
AStorm	:>	14:47
gimmal	cool; heard of ruby, been fraid of trying to pick up another progn language	14:47
AStorm	if you need something really powerful, then C++ is still the way to go :\|	14:48
RST38h	ruby <-- kill	14:48
AStorm	why?	14:49
RST38h	given that all the eager idiots who advocated for Java do the same for ruby now, KILL	14:49
AStorm	ah, that, yes	14:49
AStorm	these people should be exterminated	14:49
AStorm	they tend to go to the next new thing	14:49
AStorm	then devastate it	14:49
AStorm	Python avoided that fate due to strong leadership :P	14:49
RST38h	java was bullshit to begin with	14:49
RST38h	not sure about ruby	14:49
AStorm	it is quite nice still	14:50
RST38h	but the idea of salvation through interpreted language with slightly masqueraded pointers and a garbage collector was stupied	14:50
AStorm	hehhehe	14:50
AStorm	s/interpreted/JIT/	14:50
RST38h	Like some software engineering professor said, "If Java is then answer, then WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?"	14:51
RST38h	AStorm: JIT appeared later as a desperate attempt to improve Java performance	14:51
AStorm	RST38h: original question was: we need a language to run on toasters	14:51
RST38h	AStorm: C.	14:51
AStorm	and it should be secure	14:51
RST38h	C.	14:51
AStorm	RST38h: fails the second point, sorry	14:51
AStorm	it's inherently insecure	14:51
AStorm	:>	14:51
RST38h	When done correctly it does not	14:51
AStorm	you can't count on "done correctly" when hiring indians,	14:52
AStorm	or chinese	14:52
MangoFusion	imo, use whatever you feel is best ;)	14:53
AStorm	as of now, Java fails the first part of the question	14:53
AStorm	it can barely run on the strongest of toasters	14:53
AStorm	;P	14:53
AStorm	and that only when bastardized	14:53
RST38h	All right.	14:54
RST38h	But Java is not secure.	14:55
RST38h	It is not portable ('cause stuff written for Java 1.2 often does not run on Java 1.2.2)	14:55
AStorm	no no, it wasn't meant to be portable (originally)	14:55
RST38h	It does not fit into a toaster (unless it is severely shrunk down J2ME and even THAT requires a decent CPU)	14:55
AStorm	that was added as an afterthought	14:55
AStorm	RST38h: I said it fails	14:56
RST38h	yep	14:56
AStorm	it is fairly secure with all that checking stuff it has built in	14:56
RST38h	Not really ;)	14:56
AStorm	uhm, was	14:56
AStorm	it fails all the time ;P	14:56
* RST38h has seen a teenager bring down most systems with a Java applet		14:56
RST38h	And that teenager was stupid and did not even TRY to do it on purpose	14:56
AStorm	;P	14:57
AStorm	yes, Java VM is buggy as hell	14:57
AStorm	that's what you get with scope creep	14:57
AStorm	Sun couldn't decide what to do with it	14:58
AStorm	and the team desperately tried to get it out and have nice jobs ;P	14:58
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* RST38h will not even mention the current size of Java runtime libraries		15:01
RST38h	(which also have to be maintained compatible across multiple platforms)	15:01
AStorm	:>	15:01
AStorm	well, size of Python runtime isn't much lower	15:02
AStorm	but it can easily be trimmed :>	15:02
RST38h	At least Python is not being hyped as our ultimate salvation	15:02
AStorm	hopefully	15:03
AStorm	nothing can save us except the death of incompetent coders	15:03
wazd	hey everybody :)	15:03
AStorm	hello	15:03
RST38h	"coder" is incompetent by definition	15:03
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RST38h	as someone who "codes" instead of designing stuff	15:04
wazd	Does anybody knows Reggie's Jabber/MSN/ICQ/ any IM?)	15:04
AStorm	yeah, the real name is programmer	15:04
AStorm	except in scene circles	15:05
RST38h	those are "coders"	15:08
* RST38h had to converse with a few - most of them do not understand what they do and just expect instant gratification		15:09
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AStorm	wrong part of the scene I guess :>	15:10
GAN800	wazd, just pm him on itT?	15:11
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lcuk	http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146286/linux_may_power_new_nokia_phones.html	15:51
RST38h	old news	15:51
RST38h	nokia officially denied it since	15:52
lcuk	ok	15:52
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lopz	hi	16:02
johnx	hello	16:03
lopz	how use the libgtkmozembed + python ?	16:07
lopz	import gtkmozembed ?	16:07
lopz	module not found :(	16:07
lopz	any ideas ?	16:07
roope	rts38h: Where did Nokia deny it?	16:08
glass	and "may"	16:09
glass	so	16:09
glass	of course it's possible that they'll use it in phones sometime	16:09
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glass	and the guy who said it was finance guy, who thought it was probably sexy to say something linux	16:10
glass	he should have known better that it would be taken too seriously by a crapload of people though	16:10
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thopiekar	hi @ all... is there a way to develop programs for Maemo easier and faster as in this official howto-wiki http://maemo.org/development/training/??	16:24
RST38h	roope: a moment	16:24
thopiekar	... basicly with eclipse and sb ...	16:24
RST38h	roope: http://www.fiercewireless.com/europe/story/nokia-denies-shift-towards-linux-handsets/2008-05-22	16:24
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RST38h	thopiekar: this depends on what you consider to be easier	16:25
johnx	thopiekar, I'm not sure, but have you looked at python?	16:25
RST38h	for me, using eclipse is not "easier", it is pain.	16:25
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lcuk	ive found a nice way to devlop using gcc directly on the device and ssh/scp/komodoedit in windows and am very satisfied at being able to develop	16:25
thopiekar	too but i think about an programm like programming vb6. (I learnd it at school)	16:26
thopiekar	in eclipse there is just a editor...	16:26
lcuk	thopiekar, my komodoeditor is configured to give my c code colored like vb	16:26
lcuk	the editor "feels" like the visual basic 6 code editor and is very nice	16:27
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thopiekar	lcuk, can you directly look at what you are programmin'?? (,because it isn't possible at eclipse)	16:28
thopiekar	..	16:28
lcuk	what do you mean? they are both source editors	16:29
lcuk	or do you mean full breakpoints and interaction whilst running?	16:29
thopiekar	a preview of your "programmed" window..	16:29
lcuk	im not sure i get you	16:30
RST38h	thopiekar: do you mean debugger?	16:33
johnx	thopiekar, can you link to a screenshot?	16:34
thopiekar	one moment please ;)	16:35
thopiekar	http://freenet-homepage.de/thopiekar/maemo/app_vb_01.png	16:37
johnx	thopiekar, so, something like this: http://glade.gnome.org/screenshots.html ?	16:39
thopiekar	johnx yeah thx	16:40
thopiekar	are there more applications?	16:40
johnx	I think you can use glade, then modify it a bit to use hildon on the tablet	16:41
thopiekar	thanks.. there was a porting-to-maemo howto on maemo.org... ;)	16:42
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drwx	h, I'm trying o install maemo 4 sdk on ubuntu hardy: I have this error : Sub-process /scratchbox/devkits/debian-etch/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)	16:44
drwx	can you help me?	16:44
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thopiekar	strange i had no problems	16:44
thopiekar	do you used the scripts?	16:44
drwx	yes	16:44
drwx	I'm re-trying it	16:45
thopiekar	can you post the outputs??	16:45
lcuk	thopiekar, i think the form layout view you posted would be better on the device itself ;)	16:46
drwx	I lost it	16:46
thopiekar	lcuk, howto??	16:48
lcuk	not yet, but what better method can you think for laying out graphical objects than with your tablet itself?	16:49
thopiekar	i think there was a "little" how to on maemo.org	16:49
thopiekar	using ssh	16:49
johnx	lcuk, maybe using xephyr on the PC?	16:49
thopiekar	or this way^^	16:50
lcuk	my pc isnt touchscreen though	16:50
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thopiekar	you can use you pc-mouse instead of you pen or finger...	16:51
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thopiekar	drwx, have you installed scratchbox??	16:52
thopiekar	.. and which script gives out this errror code??	16:53
drwx	thopiekar: I installed scratchbox with this: maemo-scratchbox-install_4.0.1.sh, and I try to install to install maemo 4 with : maemo-sdk-install_4.0.1.sh	16:57
drwx	I have a lot of error this kind : dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of osso-games-startup:	16:58
drwx	osso-games-startup depends on libhildonfm2 (>= 1:1.9.46); however:	16:58
drwx	Package libhildonfm2 is not configured yet.	16:59
RST38h	Komodo is not free right?	16:59
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lcuk	edit is, ide isnt	16:59
RST38h	ah	16:59
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lcuk	i only use edit cos compilation is via console window	17:00
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thopiekar	drwx, login in into scratchbox and remove your targets	17:00
lcuk	it was no different in my linux vmware	17:00
thopiekar	drwx, ... then use the maemo-sdk script to reinstall it	17:00
lcuk	but now because im compiling directly on device cutting out the scratchbox step i can use windows as primary editing arena :)	17:01
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lcuk	and when i change to linux or mac i can continue as well	17:01
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drwx	thopiekar: I must use maemo-sdk-install_4.0.1.sh ?	17:02
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drwx	thopiekar: I have the message : You cannot remove the active target! Select another target first	17:06
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thopiekar	drwx try to make a "dummy"-target... with any configurations... then remove the last target	17:09
thopiekar	when you are finished with the reinstallation then you can remove the dummy-target again^^	17:10
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drwx	ok, I think there is a dependency problem on maemo repository	17:12
thopiekar	really?!	17:15
drwx	I dont see another possibility	17:17
summatusmentis	alright, what's the first thing I should do upon getting my N810? I've been told the OS on it will be out of date	17:19
johnx	summatusmentis, yup, flash to the latest OS2008	17:19
summatusmentis	then it's just a matter of installing wanted apps	17:20
johnx	yup	17:20
summatusmentis	or probably in my case, setting up a debian chroot	17:20
johnx	:)	17:20
summatusmentis	once the debian chroot is set up, do the apps still run under the normal nokia interface?	17:21
summatusmentis	or will I need to give up the interface, and run the standard nokia apps under kde3?	17:21
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johnx	you just chroot into debian, export DISPLAY=:0 and run the app	17:22
summatusmentis	can that be setup automatically?	17:22
johnx	yes, with a very short script, and a .desktop file to make it show up in the menu	17:23
summatusmentis	ok	17:23
summatusmentis	the other option would be to boot into debian with kde. Could I then do the reverse into maemo?	17:23
johnx	hmm...I'm not positive how well that would work for all apps	17:24
johnx	it's worth a try	17:25
* RST38h installed radare on Ubuntu but then deleted it		17:25
RST38h	way too eleet	17:25
* johnx googles		17:26
summatusmentis	johnx: so if I ran debian, I'd have to only use the debian stuff	17:26
johnx	summatusmentis, you might be able to get the OS2008 stuff running in a chroot with a little effort	17:26
johnx	also, there is an effort to get the open source parts of maemo packaged up for Debian	17:27
summatusmentis	I'm just looking at all options, I don't know what I'm going to need from OS2008	17:27
johnx	Eventually that should pick up a bit when Ubuntu Mobile stuff starts shipping I think	17:27
johnx	summatusmentis, the real question is what do you need from Debian	17:28
johnx	RST38h, for a hex editor that looks like overkill. I use "hexedit"	17:29
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summatusmentis	johnx: so you're suggesting I keep OS2008, and chroot the debian stuff	17:29
RST38h	johnx: what killed it in my eyes is the lack of interactivity	17:29
RST38h	it uses command line, even inside a gui, and most commands are obscure	17:29
johnx	summatusmentis, I'm asking what you need from Debian that can't be easily repackaged for Os2008	17:29
RST38h	I have not found how to do simple things (running a program or stepping it)	17:29
summatusmentis	johnx: that's just it, I have no idea	17:30
RST38h	And the display gets garbled when radare tries to draw too many arrows	17:30
* RST38h is wondering if there is a unix version of IDA ;)		17:30
johnx	summatusmentis, I use OS2008 for every day stuff and find it fairly complete	17:30
summatusmentis	johnx: partially the full debian system, but I'm not sure about that :)	17:30
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summatusmentis	I like the idea of having full linux, and not busybox, on the N810	17:33
johnx	You can get coreutils for OS2008	17:33
summatusmentis	and of KDE, but I gather that can be run inside of OS2008?	17:33
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johnx	yes	17:33
johnx	there are trade-offs either way	17:33
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johnx	you trade usability for features no matter what	17:34
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RST38h	OS2008 is pretty decent, whatever "not debian" crowd is saying	17:34
summatusmentis	RST38h: no, I agree, I've played with it	17:34
summatusmentis	I'm a fan of debian, I must say :)	17:35
* johnx likes OS2008 just fine :)		17:35
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drwx	thopiekar: I re-tryed installing maemo from the script, I have the same error : dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of fontconfig: fontconfig depends on gconf2 (>= 2.6.0); however:Package gconf2 is not configured yet.	17:35
lcuk	i am of the opinion that tablet software should not be a direct clone of the desktop application. the interaction is different and should be catered for correctly	17:35
RST38h	lcuk: no argument here	17:36
summatusmentis	lcuk: I sort of agree, but I would like full functionality	17:36
summatusmentis	I don't want apps to be 'lightened' or cut down	17:36
RST38h	summa: in many cases you can't have full functionality	17:36
RST38h	in other cases, you can't have full functionality on the desktop	17:36
johnx	lcuk, it depends on the situation, and as I'm sure you know: modification takes time and effort	17:36
summatusmentis	RST38h: fair enough	17:36
timtom	On OS2008, can I use dbus tricks with browser_dbuscmd.sh to do some weird stuff with microb? I can close/open a window... but what else? I want to save the current page with touching me screen :D	17:36
lcuk	no arguments there johnx :)	17:36
RST38h	Numpty Physics or MyPaint are good examples of packages that work better on a tablet	17:36
summatusmentis	perhaps I'm too demanding :)	17:36
thopiekar	drwx try to remove everything (sb, too) with:	17:37
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thopiekar	sudo apt-get remove scratchbox	17:37
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johnx	RST38h, Vagalume too :D	17:37
summatusmentis	Vagalume is last.fm compat. app right?	17:39
RST38h	Vagalume runs just fine on the desktop	17:39
RST38h	No problem there	17:39
lcuk	if the desktop applciations were created and designed with an extended resolution range and intelligently folded up the fluff leaving enough room to work cleanly no matter what resolution then we wouldnt be having this conversation	17:39
johnx	RST38h, but it's more useful on the tablet. I can poke it with my finger and drag my tablet it around while I'm doing dishes or whatever. On my desktop I might as well use a different music app.	17:40
summatusmentis	lcuk: that's fair	17:40
summatusmentis	and there is no MS format compatable tools, is that correct? abiword/gnumeric, or OO.org, or something?	17:41
lcuk	im enjoying this tablet because im building from the ground up :) the results of it would appear to scale upwards better than trying to fit a large program in a small box	17:41
lcuk	there is apparantly an abiword compatible editor from the abiword guys (ie a butdown abiword) available somewhere	17:42
lcuk	cutdown^	17:42
summatusmentis	and that'll probably read .doc but not .docx, correct?	17:42
lcuk	dunno	17:42
johnx	lcuk, Good. That's very much "the Unix way." Somewhere along the line a lot of people who write desktop Linux software seem to have lost sight of that and included everything (plus the kitchen sink)	17:43
summatusmentis	ok, I'll look around once I get the device	17:43
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fnordianslip	in case anyone wondered, installing webmin on chinook isn't entirely starightforward	17:48
fnordianslip	the install got bogged down in the post-install scripts and it couldn't fork any more processes	17:49
fnordianslip	however, the uninstaller seems to run ok ;-)	17:49
fnordianslip	erm, i mean't straightforward instead of that other 'word'	17:49
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drwx	I want to record a sound a N810 using this methode: http://docs.mandragor.org/files/Misc/GLFM/lm15/audio.htm . but there is no /dev/audi on maemo what is the equivalent?	18:03
drwx	/dev/audio	18:03
lcuk	anyone know if hypercard has been built for maemo?	18:05
summatusmentis	what is hypercard?	18:05
blafasel	hrhr	18:06
GAN8001	Ha	18:06
blafasel	Hypercard, the apple stack stuff?	18:06
qwerty12	lcuk, run it in the mac emulator	18:06
GAN8001	Is that a serious question, lcuk?	18:06
lcuk	yes	18:06
blafasel	Well, Haypercard made the slashdot frontpage today ;)	18:06
GAN8001	Gawd, I remember playing with train simulations in hypercard back in the mid 90s	18:06
blafasel	and brought back quite some fond memories	18:06
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lardman	drwx: see how's it's done in here: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-recorder/	18:08
lcuk	yer but ive just got back from holiday after making hundreds of small sketches and am trying to code them together and after reading about it on slash im thinking at least some of the work has been done and i wanted to have a look at how it felt in maemo to see if it fits with a touch environment	18:08
Proteous	I remember making games in hypercard	18:08
lcuk	(my liqbase lets me create and save and manipulate notes and sketches)	18:08
Proteous	and flipbook type animations	18:08
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pupnik_	sketches of what?	18:09
lcuk	paragraphs of notes and ideas and bits for the presentation	18:10
lcuk	and doodles and whatever i would normally scribble onto a notepad	18:10
lcuk	i want to keep them all and tag them and have ideas evolve out of them	18:10
* lardman thinks that Nokia should definitely have video out in the next tablet - and a slide show app too		18:11
Proteous	you need magic	18:11
freelikegnu	does ukmp use mplayer for audio files as well as video?	18:12
GAN8001	I want that USB VGA magic to become usable.	18:12
lardman	GAN8001: do you have a link to the hw?	18:12
lcuk	speaking of video out, i think i need to make a couple of short movies for presentation	18:13
lcuk	lardman, pupnik, do we know what kind of presentation tech we have available?	18:14
pupnik_	a projector is given, dunno what model	18:14
GAN8001	lcuk, maemopad+? xournal?	18:14
timtom	I'll anwer my own question, for the records	18:14
timtom	https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/browser-ui/trunk/tablet-browser-interface/tablet-browser-interface.h?root=browser&rev=622&view=markup	18:14
timtom	#define OSSO_BROWSER_SAVE_URL_REQ "save_url"	18:14
blafasel	lardman: Like the stuff the beta labs from Nokia presented?	18:14
lcuk	maemopad doesnt feel right, its not quick enough and besides - i want to draw AND/OR type at the same time - theres no reason why i cant do both	18:15
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lardman	will there be a computer of some description, as I wasn't planning on bringing a laptop?	18:15
lardman	blafasel: I thought that was VNC over the network?	18:15
qwerty12	No, I think that was NoBounds.	18:16
RST38h	Why make a single application for both drawing and typing - escapes me	18:16
GAN8001	lardman, see my post here for a link to the hardware and pictures.	18:16
lcuk	because i have a touchscreen and keyboard together and both things to with each other	18:16
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GAN8001	lcuk, maemopad+ is open source.	18:16
lcuk	yes i know	18:16
lcuk	also, a treeview for viewing the notes isnt great, i want to fit as much on screen as possible	18:17
GAN8001	Oh, right, the link: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19566&page=2	18:17
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lardman	GAN8001: which post out of interest? I've just had a look though the backlog and can't see any urls	18:18
GAN8001	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19566&page=2	18:18
lardman	thanks :)	18:19
GAN8001	Sin of omission. :P	18:19
lardman	looks cool	18:20
GAN8001	It's slow as shit at the moment with X.	18:20
blafasel	Right, I was talking about the nobounds concept.	18:20
GAN8001	FBReader took about 10 seconds to render completely	18:20
* lardman looks to see how much the hw costs		18:20
lardman	GAN8001: urgh	18:20
GAN8001	Faster with plain image display (the horses)	18:21
GAN8001	So it would make for a decent presentation system.	18:21
qwerty12	o.0	18:21
lardman	I've got to pop to the shops before they close, will have a look when I get back ~30min	18:22
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GAN8001	I paid $80	18:24
GAN8001	http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200034&Tpk=startech%2busb2vga	18:24
GAN8001	Is the slightly cheaper model.	18:24
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GAN8001	Maybe somebody will have one already that they can bring.	18:25
drwx	do you know if there is way to get a /dev/audi on maemo?	18:25
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drwx	/dev/audio	18:27
straind`	I was hoping there might be an Audi in maemo. :(	18:27
drwx	:-D	18:28
qwerty12	I want my spinnin wheels :p	18:28
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GAN8001	Audi sux	18:29
GAN8001	Lame Quattro	18:30
freelikegnu	igee thats not a troll	18:30
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johnx	The Audio Quattro was a cool car :P	18:33
drwx	I see a /dev/dsptask/audiopp, it might be what I need?	18:33
johnx	drwx, what do you want? an OSS audio device? an alsa device?	18:33
GAN8001	johnx, I was referring to the AWD system, not the actual car. :P	18:34
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johnx	GAN800, AWD in general or Audi's implementation?	18:34
drwx	johnx: I made a program to record a sound like this way : fd_audio = open ("/dev/audio", O_RDONLY))	18:35
drwx	and I want to use it on N800	18:35
johnx	drwx, hmm...sorry I have no idea O_o	18:35
blafasel	I like my Audi quite a lot ;-)	18:36
RST38h	drw: you are fucked.	18:36
qwerty12	Front or Back?	18:36
GAN8001	In general, real men drive RWD.	18:36
RST38h	both ways.	18:36
blafasel	RWD?	18:36
RST38h	GAN: Real men drive whatever doesn't skid too much.	18:37
RST38h	Which, unless you are driving on ice, is AWD...	18:37
GAN8001	Rear-wheel drive, blafasel.	18:37
johnx	GAN800, I like RWD too, but AWD is nice in the snow. Sometimes 2 wheels just isn't enough	18:37
drwx	RST38h: why?	18:37
GAN8001	No arguments here, but I don't drive in snow—ever. ;)	18:37
johnx	GAN800, Real men drive in the snow :P	18:38
RST38h	drwx: no accessible audio device on Maemo	18:38
RST38h	drwx: have to use ESD	18:38
blafasel	Ah.. Google led me to polish aircrafts called RWD. Misleading ;-p	18:38
RST38h	GAN: See? No real man =)	18:38
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GAN8001	AWD is understeer city, anyway.	18:38
drwx	RST38h: that's a shame!	18:39
johnx	GAN800, yeah.	18:39
freelikegnu	johnx do you know if does a2dp work with ukmp	18:39
* johnx wants a skyline :/		18:39
GAN8001	Hehe	18:39
* GAN8001 wants an E30 M3.		18:39
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johnx	freelikegnu, if ukmp can use mplayer for playback, then yes	18:39
RST38h	drwx: firebomb Nokia hq	18:39
freelikegnu	it seems to use mplayer for video	18:40
freelikegnu	not sure what it uses for playing mp3 and other audio files	18:40
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johnx	freelikegnu, IIRC you can change it in settings?	18:40
drwx	RST38h: violence is not the solution... :-D	18:40
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freelikegnu	heh I could not find the ukmp settings file	18:41
freelikegnu	doesnt seem to be in gconf either	18:41
GAN8001	You'll change your tune after the great trout-walloping expedition of summer 2008 brings us an all-open OMAP3 tablet.	18:41
GAN8001	. . . and user-selectable 12/24h time	18:41
wolfspirit	Has anyone got awt working under jalimo or any other java implementation on the nokia?	18:41
* qwerty12 is fine with 12h		18:42
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lcuk	im not, i keep thinking ive coded till dawn	18:42
crashanddie	I'll take a Ferrari California GT, or my dream car, a Shelby GT... The old ones... Though I have to say, I do love the M6 too	18:42
crashanddie	btw, any word on Diablo yet ?	18:42
GAN8001	New cars are getting a little out of hand.	18:42
GAN8001	Overweight and way to automated.	18:42
johnx	GAN800++ O_o	18:43
GAN8001	s/to/too/	18:43
infobot	GAN8001 meant: Overweight and way too automated.	18:43
johnx	GAN800, half the time I think I'll end up getting VW Beetle	18:43
crashanddie	Well, electronics is good... I mean, I wouldn't want to have to drive a Ford GT without any driving aids in a pedestrian zone...	18:43
GAN8001	Although most of the weight can be attributed to safety features. :P	18:43
lcuk	like bullbars?	18:43
crashanddie	There's only one condition needed: you have to be able to turn it off	18:43
johnx	GAN800, and stupid stuff like electricly adjusted seats :P	18:44
lcuk	don't wanna scratch the painwork with an errant pedestrian	18:44
GAN8001	crashanddie, this is true, but I'm thinking more along the lines of stupid transmission technologies.	18:44
crashanddie	If you guys want a car that bumps it up a bit, not too flashy, and not too expensive, without all the bullshit useless electronics features, get a Vauxhall Monaro	18:44
GAN8001	The horrifying "GTO" abortion state-side. <_<	18:45
GAN8001	Pontiac would probably have been OK if they didn't try and cash in on the GTO name with it. . . .	18:45
crashanddie	it's about £35k, so that's affordable	18:45
GAN8001	But there aint nothin' GTO about a Monaro.	18:46
glass	old cars have old tech.. i love classic cars but wouldn't want to daily drive with them	18:46
johnx	crashanddie, sorry, $3500 is affordable to me :P	18:46
GAN8001	Most definitely, glass.	18:46
GAN8001	I'll keep my Camry as the daily-driver. ;)	18:46
crashanddie	johnx, lol...	18:46
crashanddie	johnx, that's the price of my bike :P	18:46
glass	suspension, engine power etc are often pretty crap in classics	18:46
johnx	glass, true enough about suspension	18:47
crashanddie	johnx, well, no... my bike is 3.5keuro	18:47
johnx	my 96 subie impreza wagon was ~$4000	18:47
johnx	(in 2006)	18:48
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GAN8001	itT has just been a complete and total write-off this weekend.	18:49
johnx	GAN800, I picked a good couple days to be AFK then :D	18:49
eichi	is there a nice software for geocaching?	18:49
GAN8001	Some asshole is always guaranteed to come in with their ill-informed opinions in threads like the itTSS one and derail it just as it starts becoming useful and productive.	18:50
johnx	GAN800, ITTSS?	18:51
johnx	I missed the "acronym of the week" memo...	18:51
GAN8001	Oh, you missed that one?	18:51
* GAN8001 is envious.		18:51
johnx	eichi, geopoi maybe?	18:51
crashanddie	GAN800 & johnx: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7Z-iLa8h0	18:51
GAN8001	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20261	18:51
summatusmentis	geopoi was what was mentioned on the wiki	18:52
GAN8001	Steel yourself, johnx.	18:52
johnx	GAN800, I'm beyond jaded...you have no idea	18:52
* qwerty12 really doesn't give 2 shits about the administration side of maemo, filing bugs, new download locations etc. I just go on there for the apps, games etc.		18:52
johnx	GAN800, ah, forum drama?	18:52
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GAN8001	Really, everything should be in Extras/Extras-devel	18:53
GAN8001	I don't ever want to have to open a web browser for software.	18:53
GAN8001	johnx, I <3 forum drama. I'm almost guaranteed to pick up 30 or 40 thanks when I jump in. :D	18:53
GAN8001	Thanks! == discount code. . . .	18:53
GAN8001	crashanddie, hot stuff.	18:54
johnx	could we get an automated extras repo -> rss feed?	18:54
johnx	cause that would be awesome	18:54
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gourdin	when is planed the next n8x0 os ?	18:54
summatusmentis	GAN8001: how does thanks == discount code?	18:54
GAN8001	Diablo is coming out in a month or two, gourdin.	18:54
freelikegnu	gah now my n800 is rebooting half way through startup :(	18:54
gourdin	GAN8001: great :)	18:55
GAN8001	summatusmentis, karma factors into discount code distribution.	18:55
qwerty12	What did you change :p	18:55
summatusmentis	also, is there a way to find changes between diablo and current?	18:55
freelikegnu	qwerty I intalled some apps since last startup	18:55
summatusmentis	GAN8001: discount code distribution is built into ITT?	18:55
GAN8001	johnx, basically, we talked Reggie out of duplicating all the effort and fragmenting things and syndication Downloads/Garage	18:55
crashanddie	freelikegnu, you didn't apt-get update && apt-get upgrade, did you ?	18:55
GAN8001	No, summatusmentis.	18:55
qwerty12	freelikegnu, You don't have bootmenu installed by any chance?	18:55
freelikegnu	nope	18:55
GAN8001	But it'll help.	18:56
johnx	summatusmentis, maybe a simple shell script involving diff and a nice person running diablo?	18:56
crashanddie	GAN800, is there a thanks/post ratio involved ?	18:56
freelikegnu	qwerty12: no boot menu installed :P	18:56
crashanddie	GAN800, cuz I've posted like what... 2 times, and have 8 thanks... So that's a ratio a 4... :D	18:56
GAN8001	Ha	18:56
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summatusmentis	johnx: I'm just wondering if feature improvements will be made, that's all	18:56
crashanddie	s/a/of	18:56
dererk	Hi ppl! :)	18:56
GAN8001	Thanks are a recent addition	18:56
freelikegnu	crashanddie: I didnt use apt-get recently	18:56
simboss	guys, Iam trying to install meamo-pc-connectivity	18:56
dererk	Do you know if Firefox3 port to MicroB is already available?	18:57
GAN8001	So there's a lot of 2005-2007 members who have a lots of posts pre-thanks.	18:57
simboss	but it fails since it seems to need *fuse libs?	18:57
gourdin	does diablo have an official website ?	18:57
simboss	where can I get them=	18:57
johnx	summatusmentis, not many	18:57
GAN8001	What, dererk?	18:57
qwerty12	simboss, add the maemo sdk+ repo	18:57
summatusmentis	johnx: fair enough	18:57
GAN8001	MicroB is based on Gecko a1	18:57
freelikegnu	guess I'll have to reflash :P	18:57
qwerty12	I had to do some more hacking to get the maemo-pc-connectivity to install under diablo :/	18:57
crashanddie	johnx, we're gonna get the "Easy Update" feature, right ?	18:57
GAN8001	gourdin, maemo.org :P	18:57
qwerty12	SSU	18:58
summatusmentis	I need to just get my mahine already, so that I can stop asking innane questions, and instead just try stuff out	18:58
johnx	crashanddie, yup...after one more flash :)	18:58
crashanddie	johnx, because for me, that's all that counts, tbh	18:58
dererk	GAN800, Uhm, I was almost sure MicroB was based on Mozilla browser	18:58
GAN8001	gourdin, see the Internet Tablet OS wikipedia article for more details.	18:58
crashanddie	johnx, plus, after that, updates might be easier to schedule for the team, I guess	18:58
GAN8001	dererk, it's based on Gecko, which is the Mozilla rendering engine.	18:58
gourdin	GAN8001: ok, thx :)	18:58
simboss	qwerty12: this one http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/?	18:58
* GAN8001 considers fleshing that out more.		18:58
dererk	GAN800, then my question was not all that wrong :P	18:59
GAN8001	Anybody have a link to konttori's recent interview handy?	18:59
GAN8001	dererk, I just didn't understand the question	18:59
qwerty12	simboss, check out http://blog.chatonka.com/2008/05/using-cpu-transparency-with-scratchbox/ , thanks to wolf08	18:59
GAN8001	I wasn't correcting you, just trying to clarify things. :P	18:59
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dererk	GAN800, :)	19:01
simboss	qwerty12: I am following that tutorial, but the app manager keeps complaining about missing mount-full!!	19:01
dererk	I was told it was already available somewhere for N810	19:01
qwerty12	simboss, Look into editing the dpkg "status" file. Too tired to explain more.	19:02
GAN8001	It's bundled with OS2008.	19:02
simboss	qwerty12: thx :-)	19:02
GAN8001	You may also be thinking of the Minefield port or the Fennec mobile mozilla, neither of which are particularly usable at the moment.	19:03
dererk	GAN800, not the Firefox3 port	19:03
dererk	GAN800, (it's already ff rc1)	19:03
dererk	GAN800, did you try it?	19:03
GAN8001	I have previously	19:04
GAN8001	Not suited for a touchscreen interface	19:04
GAN8001	bloaty	19:04
GAN8001	and Fennec is crash-happy.	19:04
dererk	:(	19:04
GAN8001	We're probably 1-2 years away from a really polish Fennec.	19:05
GAN8001	*polished.	19:05
dererk	I found terrifying horrible slowly my microb	19:05
GAN8001	Anybody remember the official designation for Diablo? OS2008 Maintence Upgrade or somesuch	19:05
dererk	s/found/find/	19:05
infobot	dererk meant: I find terrifying horrible slowly my microb	19:05
GAN8001	dererk, did you have Fit View to Width on?	19:05
GAN8001	MicroB works just fine here.	19:05
dererk	bbl	19:06
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crashanddie	Yeah, I'd love a microb that works a bit faster	19:09
GAN8001	crashanddie, try the svn?	19:09
GAN8001	It a pretty decent improvement.	19:09
crashanddie	cuz having it run in circles for 20 seconds saying "connecting" is pretty slow, and kinda kills surfing for me	19:09
GAN8001	Anybody, konttori's interview or the official name for Diablo?	19:10
crashanddie	GAN800, linky link ?	19:10
GAN8001	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=178677	19:10
crashanddie	yeah found something	19:11
crashanddie	I'll try it later on, really nice improvement ?	19:11
crashanddie	cuz I have FiOS, and it feels like I'm still in Dialup	19:11
blafasel	Navi: Still needing a mirror for those files?	19:12
GAN8001	Largely, yes	19:12
GAN8001	Little buggier in some ways	19:12
blafasel	(Post is 20 days old, so I guess the answer is "no")	19:12
GAN8001	But scrolling is smooth as silk.	19:12
crashanddie	GAN800, that would be perfect, tbh	19:12
crashanddie	GAN800, thanks, I'll check it out	19:12
qwerty12	GAN8001, Do you know if Navi compiled the latest latest SVN? I really need it on my Diablo :/	19:13
GAN8001	btw, the Connecting bouncing is usually due to your router not playing nice with wifi powersaving.	19:13
GAN8001	qwerty12, I don't know if it's been updated since he compiled it.	19:13
*** lardman\|away is now known as lardman		19:14
qwerty12	Ah, ok.	19:14
lardman	re	19:14
qwerty12	I can't use that build because I have a feeling it won't play nice with browserd	19:14
qwerty12	I learnt my lesson when I tried osso-xterm built for chinook in diablo.	19:14
lcuk	lardman, did you reach the shops - i almost had to do a milk run ;)	19:15
konttori	GAN8001: http://www.nseries.com/index.html#l=workshop,articles,414	19:15
konttori	There's the link	19:15
lardman	lcuk: yep, Waitrose is open 'till 5 thankfully	19:15
crashanddie	GAN800, I don't think my router has powersaving	19:15
lcuk	good, next wekk, this sit down dinner, is it black tie and do we need to book tickets in advance?	19:16
crashanddie	erhm	19:16
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crashanddie	I get a whole lot of "undefined" on that website	19:16
lardman	lcuk: lol to black tie, I hope not	19:16
lcuk	same here, we could wear penguin suits i suppose	19:16
lardman	lcuk: Are there any specifics about it yet?	19:16
GAN8001	The N8x0 does, crashanddie.	19:17
lcuk	lol @ that comment ^	19:17
lcuk	<GAN8001> The N8x0 does crashanddie.	19:17
GAN8001	Beautiful, thanks, crashanddie.	19:17
GAN8001	Haaaar	19:17
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qwerty12	lcuk, lol	19:18
crashanddie	lol...	19:18
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crashanddie	not worse than "<crashanddie> I'm going to be Moonlit's Wii"	19:19
qwerty12	lmao	19:19
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qwerty12	Wii is a stupid name though.	19:19
GAN8001	Wii is awesome.	19:19
crashanddie	it's an excellent name	19:19
lcuk	i like the small detail that the motes have poo in their product code	19:19
qwerty12	I think it sounds shit. Get me PS3/X360 so I can play GTAIV	19:19
crashanddie	I have the Wii, and a PS3... We will spend some time on GTA IV or GT5:P, but when I have a few friends around, it's Wii all the time...	19:20
GAN8001	Wii60 is the way to go.	19:20
crashanddie	Nothing like Mario Kart to goof around	19:20
GAN8001	Wii for Nintendo's awesome innovative stuff and the social games	19:20
GAN8001	360 for the hardcore stuff	19:20
lcuk	crashanddie, but theres a lot more people around who just want to have fun with whole family and nintendo have tapped that market	19:20
crashanddie	"Wii was really meant for we, but that's doesn't my Mii isn't me"	19:21
qwerty12	GAN8001, +1 :)	19:21
qwerty12	Although I don't mind PS3 too.	19:21
crashanddie	lcuk, that's exactly what I said, didn't I ?	19:21
GAN8001	PS3 pretty much has zero appeal to me.	19:21
lcuk	sorry, misread end	19:21
GAN8001	Funnily enough, I was gong through my 360 games the other day and all but 1 is rated M.	19:22
crashanddie	I mean, the Wii is basically just bringing games to a social level again...	19:22
lcuk	ps3 as a technology concept is very interesting, but it seems like too much right now	19:22
GAN8001	and that's Forza 2.	19:22
crashanddie	And I'm not talking about social as in "Lan party social CS or War3"	19:22
GAN8001	Sony lost all of their exclusives to the 360.	19:22
GAN8001	and a Playstation without its exclusives is just a joke.	19:22
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lcuk	most people still dont have full HD entertainment systems and a wii on a smallish portable in bedroom rocks	19:22
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blafasel	crashanddie: Might be me, but I don't like seeing 2 to 4 people a) ruining the living room trying to play a tennis-like game or b) boxing like a new kind of star wars kid, Version 2.0 ;)	19:23
* GAN8001 plays his 360 on an old 17" Trinitron.		19:23
lcuk	though if i did have a big entertainment system i wouldnt like the idea of the kids throwing deadly motes around	19:23
qwerty12	I guess HD is out of the question then?	19:23
GAN8001	blafasel, you just aren't much fun, are you? :P	19:23
crashanddie	well, I have "the full HD experience", and that's why I got the PS3 in the first place... It's a great DVD upscaler, plus it gives me access to HD content, without investing in yet another HTPC	19:23
blafasel	GAN8001: Never.	19:23
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lcuk	we have a main tv thats only 26 inches	19:24
GAN8001	Speaking of HD, Microsoft really got it right with h.264 streaming to the 360.	19:24
lcuk	no point in hd	19:24
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crashanddie	I got myself a nice 40" FullHD screen, the PS3 was a no-brainer after that	19:24
GAN8001	My family got a 30" sharp in 2003.	19:25
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GAN8001	1024x768 16:9	19:25
GAN8001	Been replaced 3 times so far	19:25
crashanddie	though, I understand why bluray has such a hard time taking off	19:25
* GAN8001 is very thankful we got the warranty		19:25
GAN8001	Keeping up with about every second generational upgrade with a new warranty-paid TV	19:25
crashanddie	between VHS and DVD, there was a huuuuge difference... Between DVD and Bluray, the difference is not that big...	19:26
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AStorm	hello	19:26
qwerty12	hi	19:26
crashanddie	hey	19:26
AStorm	hehehe!	19:26
GAN8001	crashanddie, I'm betting IPTV/OnDemand/Netflix/AppleTV type stuff will take off more than Bluray	19:26
AStorm	It seems new kernel... works!	19:26
AStorm	wifi loaded too	19:26
qwerty12	w00t	19:26
n800n	yup	19:26
GAN8001	AStorm, any speed improvements with new scheduler?	19:26
AStorm	GAN8001: wait, the system has to load	19:27
crashanddie	GAN800, I have HD over IP, through my ISP... So yeah, I really understand what you're saying	19:27
AStorm	it's now showing the "hands" logo	19:27
AStorm	now a white screen, wait	19:27
qwerty12	Then KABOOM	19:27
AStorm	it seems that auto updates slow down boot process considerably	19:27
GAN8001	crashanddie, we bought an AppleTV for my mother last Christmas	19:27
AStorm	I'd have to disable this bling bling	19:27
GAN8001	My dad and I rented The Darjeeling Limited in HD about a month ago	19:27
AStorm	or have manual update support turned on	19:27
GAN8001	That's some hot shit.	19:27
AStorm	it's probably spamming dmesg	19:27
GAN8001	Easy, looks great, works great, price is right.	19:28
crashanddie	GAN800, my ISP gives me a 100Mbit/50Mbit internet connection, 2 TV sets that can access 500 channels, about 100 of those in HD, and direct access to youtube/dailymotion/yahoo video/other major video websites directly on my TV, plus access to my whole media library on the network...	19:29
GAN8001	whore.	19:29
GAN8001	:P	19:29
blafasel	AppleTV would be neat if it supported displaying on a TFT as well. I don't own a TV ;)	19:29
crashanddie	GAN800, in total, I can watch 4 different HD streams at one given time (2 tvs, plus 2 on computers)	19:29
GAN8001	blafasel, AppleTV would be neat if it weren't crippled to death.	19:29
GAN8001	It doesn't particularly appeal to me	19:29
GAN8001	but for my parents. . . .	19:29
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GAN8001	Dead easy is important.	19:30
n800n	i got a neuros osd	19:30
crashanddie	Plus also a phone with unlimited communications to half the world... Plus SIP access to use that phoneline from the n810 (so I can call the whole world as soon as I have wifi :D)	19:30
n800n	> appletv	19:30
crashanddie	GAN800, wanna know the price ?	19:30
GAN8001	No.	19:30
crashanddie	:P	19:30
crashanddie	30euro/month	19:30
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GAN8001	Because it's just going to make me sad.	19:30
crashanddie	there is just one, big, huge, downside to all this	19:31
GAN8001	We're $110 for 15/2 + HD Cable + unlimited phone	19:31
forge	2gb monthly limit ?	19:31
crashanddie	You have to live in France...	19:31
forge	:)	19:31
crashanddie	anyway, gotta bring the sis back to her place, bbl, cheers	19:32
RST38h	crashanddie: Do you also get a community network with hundreds of pirated movies mp3 and programs?	19:32
blafasel	crashanddie: That's too big of a downside, unfortunately ;)	19:32
crashanddie	RST38h, well, we have access to what they call "FreeHomeVideo", which is in fact a Youtube clone within the ISP users community	19:32
crashanddie	RST38h, and needless to say, prime access to newsgroups	19:32
RST38h	does not count	19:33
RST38h	cause we get pirated stuff in DVD or HD quality =)	19:33
crashanddie	and I have no shit like some US ISPs, where you have to pay extra for having all yours ports usable or whatever, nor any downloading/uploading restriction	19:33
RST38h	Well, US ISP, cable, cellular service is more or less like in that "Brazil" movie	19:35
GAN8001	To anybody considering a HAVA, my recommendation is to buy.	19:36
n800n	i don't have cable	19:36
konttori	GAN8001: what did you need the interview fore?	19:36
qwerty12	Then you wouldn't be considering :p	19:36
RST38h	NASA TV Live coverage of the Phoenix landing on Mars begins at 6 p.m. EDT on Sunday, May 25 !!!	19:36
GAN8001	konttori, I was using it as a reference for the wikipedia section on Diablo and SSU	19:37
konttori	ah. ok.	19:37
GAN8001	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Tablet_OS#Diablo	19:37
GAN8001	RST38h, hrm, I've got that in HD.	19:38
blafasel	GAN8001: Do you own the Hava stuff?	19:38
RST38h	GAN8001: =)	19:38
GAN8001	I bought a Platinum	19:38
konttori	GAN8001: good summary.	19:38
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RST38h	I guess watching it in HD from here would screw up everybody's nightly porn downloads =)	19:39
GAN8001	Ha	19:39
GAN8001	Don't do that	19:39
GAN8001	riots might ensue.	19:39
RST38h	naah, they will just blame it on the weather	19:39
RST38h	summer thunderstorms are starting	19:39
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GAN8001	I need to get myself a few more power adapters.	19:40
blafasel	GAN8001: I found that interesting, but I don't think that I can use it.	19:40
GAN8001	6, apparently, isn't enough.	19:40
summatusmentis	anyone here use KDE?	19:40
qwerty12	Used to	19:41
summatusmentis	why'd you stop?	19:41
keesj	I used to on the desktop	19:41
summatusmentis	oh, no, i meant on the N8x0 series	19:41
qwerty12	summatusmentis, Because I wanted to remove it to make sure it wouldn't intefere with diablo upgrade (I used old method) and I prefer to use the space for Debian	19:41
GAN8001	blafasel, I don't have cable up at college, so I'm planning on hijacking some from home. ;)	19:41
summatusmentis	qwerty12: oh, ok. But it was usable?	19:42
blafasel	GAN8001: I don't have cable or sat, so no way to feed it..	19:42
qwerty12	summatusmentis, Kinda. Watchdog would reboot my N800 a lot under high cpu.	19:42
blafasel	Using DVB-T sometimes on a PC via USB..	19:42
summatusmentis	qwerty12: watchdog was the firewall thing, right?	19:42
qwerty12	No	19:42
GAN8001	I set up mediaserv on my server here at home, too	19:42
GAN8001	got plenty of upstream to use both remotely.	19:42
summatusmentis	qwerty12: what is watchdog then?	19:43
qwerty12	I wish GAN8001 came to my rescue here :P	19:43
qwerty12	"There are both hardware and software watchdogs / lifeguards that reboot the device in certain circumstances, e.g. excessive CPU usage; important process crashes; system lock up. (Feel free to expand/correct this vague and possibly inaccurate description. :-) )"	19:43
qwerty12	Copied from wiki	19:43
lardman	GAN8001: have you worked out the frame update rate for your usb->vga adaptor?	19:44
GAN8001	summatusmentis, largely, a bad idea. ;)	19:44
summatusmentis	oh, so it's something built into the device, that makes sense	19:44
summatusmentis	GAN8001: which is, KDE?	19:44
GAN8001	lardman, no, I'm leaving that up to Graham.	19:44
qwerty12	watchdoh	19:44
qwerty12	*dog	19:44
GAN8001	^	19:44
GAN8001	I think it would work OK if you just had a bunch of jpegs, lardman.	19:44
GAN8001	It's slow with X, though.	19:45
summatusmentis	sorry, I'm confused. Watchdog is a bad idea, yes?	19:45
GAN8001	Right.	19:45
GAN8001	It usually just causes more trouble than it prevents.	19:45
summatusmentis	I see.	19:45
lardman	The n810 usb connection is 12MBps isn't it?	19:46
lardman	i.e. usb1 full speed	19:46
lardman	s/MBps/Mbps	19:47
AStorm	drat	19:47
AStorm	the patch fixing keyboard changed keycodes	19:47
zap	USB device connection is USB 2.0	19:47
lardman	is it, oh ok	19:47
zap	I get 5Mb/s easily	19:47
AStorm	so fanoush' menu doesn't work	19:47
AStorm	;)	19:47
AStorm	I'll temporarily revert it	19:48
lardman	that's still within the boundaries of usb1	19:48
zap	nope	19:48
lardman	yep	19:48
zap	USB 1.0 is 12 mega_b_it	19:48
qwerty12	AStorm, Edit the linuxrc and bootmenu.sh with new keycodes?	19:48
zap	I get 5 mega_byte_	19:48
zap	s	19:48
zap	=)	19:48
lardman	ah, B then rather than b ;)	19:48
GAN8001	^	19:48
GAN8001	[12:47pm] <zap> I get 5M_b_/s easily	19:48
GAN8001	lardman, how fast does your device flash? :P	19:49
zap	well I don't know how it's out there, but here we write Mb for megabyte :-P	19:49
lardman	if it can push 5 megabytes per sec, then: (5)10241024/(10247682) = 3.33333	19:49
lardman	zap: fair enough	19:49
lardman	GAN8001: I never pay any attention to it ;)	19:49
GAN8001	zap, where is here? O_O	19:50
zap	I think it can do more than that, it's just that the SDHC card can't take more :)	19:50
GAN8001	That is retardedly confusing	19:50
AStorm	qwerty12: except I don't know it yet	19:50
GAN8001	Do it the opposite way from everybody else? Good plan.	19:50
zap	but don't confuse USB host with USB device	19:50
lardman	I was just wondering what the theoretical bandwidth limit was for the usb connection	19:50
AStorm	and will have to reflash a kernel with console support	19:50
zap	lardman: as far as I understand, you're meaning the USB Host on N810	19:50
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zap	and that one could be USB 1.0	19:51
lardman	GAN8001: tbh, I can never remember which is which either	19:51
lardman	zap: yes	19:51
GAN8001	_B_ytes are bigger. :P	19:51
GAN8001	_b_its are smaller.	19:51
GAN8001	s/bigger/BIGGER/	19:51
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zap	GIGABYTES ARE REALLY HUGE	19:52
GAN8001	Seriously, zap, where the hell do they use Mb for megabyte?	19:52
lardman	yeah, I suppose that is easy enough to remember, I just think in terms of ASCII keycodes ;)	19:52
GAN8001	So I can avoid that place in the future. . . . :\	19:52
qwerty12	_b_its are smaller - I really misread that.	19:52
RST38h	GAN: Forums	19:52
RST38h	Can you make yourself avoid that place? =)	19:52
GAN8001	RST38h, :P	19:52
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zap	Some even write Mo for mega-octet	19:53
GAN8001	The place where Mb is used for megabyte and considered correct. ;)	19:53
zap	you will want to avoid that place too, I think	19:53
* Knirch will start using mB instead.		19:54
RST38h	Nintendo used to do it all the time - "8 megabit cartridge", "16 megabit cartridge"	19:54
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lardman	Knirch: milli-bytes?	19:54
RST38h	Somebody at their marketing decided that by using megabits they can make cartridges "look bigger"	19:54
zap	and some even don't know a kilobyte has 1000 bytes	19:54
zap	they think that it's 1024 bytes :)	19:55
RST38h	zap: THAT is arguable	19:55
Knirch	lardman: mmm	19:55
blafasel	Don't start with miBytes or something	19:55
RST38h	yep	19:56
Knirch	zap: I'm not touching that discussion with a ten foot pole	19:56
GAN8001	mibibytes just piss me off.	19:56
AStorm	hmmhmm	19:56
AStorm	doesn't seem to boot properly	19:56
AStorm	I'd need some ssh to see what's going on	19:56
AStorm	and I'll get it ;)	19:56
AStorm	wait, no, it booted some more	19:56
AStorm	again hands screen	19:56
AStorm	probably something isn't supported and spams dmesg	19:57
AStorm	that can really slow down boot	19:57
RST38h	"spamming dmesg" - nice	19:57
RST38h	the last frontier for spammers, so to say	19:58
AStorm	I'll leave it for some minutes, it might boot	19:58
AStorm	;P	19:58
AStorm	in the meantime, I'll get ssh running while it boots	20:00
* qwerty12 debates whether to set this up: http://www.pabr.org/sixlinux/sixlinux.en.html . Quite a bit of programs :?		20:00
qwerty12	s/:?/://	20:01
AStorm	│ dragorn	20:01
AStorm	argh, missed ;)	20:01
glass	qwerty12: more bt game controller supports would be nice in maemo	20:02
AStorm	what for?	20:02
AStorm	I'd like a remote more	20:02
Proteous	Mapped at 0xfdeb5000	20:03
Proteous	Found a Keylargo mac-io controller, rev: 3, mapped at 0xfde35000	20:03
Proteous	G3t v1agr4 4 less!	20:03
Proteous	PID hash table entries: 4096 (order: 12, 65536 bytes)	20:03
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AStorm	heh, that's some dmesg spam ;P	20:03
qwerty12	glass, Yeah :). I'll see if I can take a look in :/	20:03
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qwerty12	Although I can't see no CONFIG_HIDRAW :/	20:04
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glass	qwerty12: just buttons is nice, not that many games where inertia support would do much good	20:04
AStorm	hehe	20:04
AStorm	inertia could be used for scrolling	20:04
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dererk	GAN8001, did you ever use svn microb?	20:05
dererk	svn's *	20:05
GAN8001	For a little while	20:07
GAN8001	I ask again, though, dererk, do you have Fit Width to View turned on?	20:07
qwerty12	Same here, then diablo was leaked :D	20:07
konttori	glass: so, wiimote is not enough for you?	20:07
GAN8001	That'll seriously screw up the browser.	20:07
dererk	GAN8001, indeed	20:08
konttori	glass: you could take a look at that code and add support for ps3 controller if you need to	20:08
konttori	should be doable	20:08
dererk	but it works exactly the same as if it wasn't	20:08
AStorm	huh, it booted to a progress bar... ?	20:08
dererk	GAN8001, as crashanddie said	20:08
dererk	<crashanddie> cuz having it run in circles for 20 seconds saying "connecting" is pretty slow, and kinda kills surfing for me	20:09
dererk	it's exactly the same for me	20:09
AStorm	with the same old initfs	20:09
qwerty12	konttori, I'm trying but it needs stuff done to kernel. Not like wiicontrol or cwiid :/	20:09
AStorm	thus I don't know what happens ;P	20:09
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AStorm	maybe it's rewriting something on jffs2	20:09
qwerty12	You really should set up bootmenu with framebuffer :/	20:09
konttori	qwerty12: Isn't there any way to just map the stuff like wiicontrol does?	20:10
GAN8001	dererk, like I told crashanddie, that's usually an issue with your router.	20:11
* konttori has again been programming today and is all the time expecting word completion for everything he writes. wii<tab> what the * why didn't it complete? :)		20:11
GAN8001	You could try turning of wifi powersaving on the N800 to see if it improves.	20:11
dererk	GAN8001, not at all!	20:11
GAN8001	(though battery life will suffer)	20:11
qwerty12	konttori, Not sure. According to people on the internet, you can use it fine over usb (it's an hid device) in linux but patch to kernel is needed for joystick	20:11
dererk	It does not happen with other network utility	20:11
GAN8001	konttori, wouldn't that be wonderful? :D	20:11
dererk	it's just browser	20:11
GAN8001	dererk, my point still stands.	20:12
konttori	qwerty12: ah. you want to actually use it as a joystick device.	20:12
qwerty12	I don't actually own a PS3 :P but I plan on plugging in my friends controller :/	20:13
konttori	Hmm.. you might want to ask for that on the maemo mailing list as well (to have the base level joystick support there so that 3rd parties could add support for BT controller devices.	20:13
konttori	qwerty12: in the meanwhile, you should be able to map the buttons on the ps3 controller in the same manner as wiicontrol does.	20:13
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konttori	And even one analog should be emulatable nicely as the mouse pointer.	20:14
qwerty12	Yeah :) I'll still work on the kernel patches though and plug in my friends controller sometime and see what I can do	20:15
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konttori	sounds cool.	20:16
konttori	Anyway, I hope you can also convince the nokia kernel people to integrate your patches.	20:16
qwerty12	Well, the stock nokia 2.6.21 already has the USB fix applied to it "#define USB_VENDOR_ID_SONY0x054c	20:16
qwerty12	#define USB_DEVICE_ID_SONY_PS3_CONTROLLER0x0268"	20:16
BugBlue	re	20:16
konttori	would be cool to have by default	20:16
konttori	ah. cool	20:16
qwerty12	I wonder what would happen if someone plugs in PS3 controller over USB with stock kernel?	20:16
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keesj	lardman: the word goes around that you can deliver tickets for linuxtag	20:18
dererk	GAN8001, confirmed it's not.	20:19
dererk	it's just a microb problem/feature :)	20:19
GAN8001	Usually it is	20:20
GAN8001	Sometimes it's not	20:20
GAN8001	Meh	20:20
* unixSnob wonders if anyone has heard of anyone getting vxworks on the NIT		20:21
AStorm	hmmhmm	20:22
AStorm	this ssh doesn't want to log in ;P	20:22
AStorm	I wonder why	20:22
AStorm	it doesn't respond to the normal "rootme" pass	20:23
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AStorm	and not to my normal system one	20:23
AStorm	weirdness	20:23
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AStorm	it has ssh and rpcbind	20:25
AStorm	the machine is alive, but I see a white screen	20:25
AStorm	hmmhmm	20:25
AStorm	I'll better get a shell inside	20:25
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HuLsH	hello plp	20:27
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HuLsH	can someone help me on something	20:28
HuLsH	?	20:28
AStorm	ok, I'm in somehow	20:28
HuLsH	:)	20:28
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HuLsH	i am using fm-radio app	20:29
HuLsH	and i whant to reinstall my os2008	20:29
HuLsH	but i cant find the way to somehow "export" the list of fm radio stations	20:30
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HuLsH	that i inserted, so i dont need to type them in again	20:30
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HuLsH	any ideas ?	20:31
HuLsH	anyone ? :)	20:31
summatusmentis	is there anyone using a moto q for tethering their internet tablet?	20:32
dererk	cya	20:32
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HuLsH	thy are all dead :)	20:34
blafasel	I'm so glad that this mobile shop here traded that god-damn Nokia phone for a different brand. Slimmer with more features = good.	20:37
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AStorm	ok, I get it	20:38
AStorm	something with framebuffer doesn't work	20:38
HuLsH	it for sure may be :)	20:39
AStorm	as the system is started	20:39
AStorm	the trick is how to debug that	20:39
AStorm	ah, cx3110x got a NULL pointer deref too ;P	20:40
AStorm	or g_ether	20:40
AStorm	let me check	20:40
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GAN8001	Very carefully, AStorm. :P	20:41
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AStorm	hmm, looks like it's g_ether and not cx3110x	20:42
AStorm	no, 100% cs3110x ;P	20:43
AStorm	it disappeared	20:43
AStorm	damn	20:43
AStorm	maybe it hanged due to that	20:45
AStorm	I'll drop the driver for now	20:45
* lardman ponders whether to spend too much money on a usb->vga adaptor		20:48
GAN8001	lardman, if you're going to use it for LinuxTag, find somebody else to bring one you can use	20:48
keesj	lardman: I tried to find one today but did not succeed	20:48
GAN8001	I wouldn't bother picking one up for yourself (well, at UK prices anyway :P) right now.	20:48
AStorm	the long boot delay is due to device waiting for dbus to settle	20:49
lardman	yeah, they are expensive	20:49
lardman	not specifically for LinuxTag - not enough time to debug it for that, but just for general hacking interest	20:49
GAN8001	Or maybe find somebody flying over from the states to grab you one.	20:49
lardman	GAN8001: I'll be over there in July so I may do so myself	20:49
zap	Has anybody ever get g_ether play together with Windows on N810? Or it's vapourware?	20:50
lardman	They're not really dear, £65, but still makes you think twice	20:50
AStorm	hmm	20:50
inz	astorm, still fighting with 2.6.25?	20:50
AStorm	inz: sure	20:50
AStorm	please cap the nick correctly :>	20:50
AStorm	it doesn't hl me otherwise	20:50
lardman	zap: from my Zaurus days, have you used Linux.inf to "install" the rndis driver than Windows lacks?	20:50
inz	AStorm, sorry, being lazy when using a tablet to irc	20:51
AStorm	:>	20:51
AStorm	well, it seems the device booted fine, but I get a white screen only	20:51
zap	lardman: it's a bit complicated here since I don't use windows, it's one of my friends who can't get it to work :)	20:51
AStorm	something is different	20:52
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AStorm	I suspect there's some dri module	20:52
AStorm	or something like it	20:52
inz	AStorm, you need serial console	20:52
AStorm	no, I don't	20:53
AStorm	I have ssh, doh	20:53
AStorm	it has booted correctly	20:53
AStorm	BUT there is just a white screen	20:53
lardman	zap: hmm, not ideal. Point them to either the Linux kernel source tree Docs dir, or tell them to try this: http://www.davehylands.com/linux/gumstix/usbnet/linux.inf	20:53
AStorm	Xomap and all is running	20:53
zap	lardman: thank you, I'll do it	20:53
AStorm	I guess I should ping the linux-omap ml about it	20:53
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AStorm	alternatively, I need someone to build me Xfb	20:54
practisevoodoo	anyone got popen2 working in python under os2008?	20:54
AStorm	:>	20:54
lardman	zap: then it should just be a case of ifconfig on the N8x0 and Windows should recognise it (static IPs unless Windows has a working DHCP server); routing is a whole other matter....	20:54
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lardman	zap: http://maemotalk.feelslikeburning.com/2006/02/21/usbnet-with-nokia770-winxp/ might be of interest	20:56
zap	yes, he followed that howto	20:56
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zap	windoz does not see the connection	20:57
lardman	So he installed linux.inf?	20:57
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ssvb	hi lardman, have you been successful at mapping more than one page of memory for DSP on N8x0?	20:57
zap	no idea, trying to get an answer from him :)	20:57
lardman	:)	20:58
zap	I was just interested if that works at all	20:58
lardman	the official page looks like the best bet for instructions: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/USBnetworkingWinXP/	20:58
lardman	ssvb: hi	20:58
lardman	ssvb: I've been away, not tried anything	20:58
AStorm	ok, where do I get the Debian X server?	20:58
AStorm	the one which works on N8x0	20:58
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AStorm	afaicr they don't use Xomap	20:59
lardman	ssvb: but when I was trying to map <1MB or memory, 4 or 5 TLBs were used in 0x10000 chunks before the dmesg messages told me it had run out; so it ought to work	20:59
lardman	s/or/of	20:59
lardman	assuming you use multiples of 0x100,000	20:59
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lardman	ssvb: I can take a look tomorrow if you'd like me to (holiday :) )	21:02
ssvb	lardman: right now I'm having weird "omapdsp: tadd address is ABORTADR." errors when I'm trying to add arrays that span across page boundary on N8x0	21:02
qwerty12_N800	haha, lardman gets the day off, i get the week :p	21:02
lcuk	but lardman will be more productive in his one day than you in your whole week :P	21:03
lcuk	plus, hes going to germany in a couple of days so gets the week off anyway	21:03
ssvb	lardman: the same stuff works on 770, so I guess it migh be something with dspgateway version mismatch or anything else	21:03
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, hehe, fair play	21:03
lcuk	can this dsp compiler work on device?	21:03
GAN800	Man, lcuk, you told him. :P	21:05
lardman	ssvb: to diagnose such problems you can run "dsp_dld -p" in another terminal and see what it says	21:06
lardman	ssvb: that's a generic error that seems to turn up for everything, inlcuding undefined symbols	21:06
lardman	lcuk: no, x86 only	21:06
ssvb	lardman: ok, thanks	21:07
lardman	qwerty12_N800: I've taken the week off too, but have to go into work on Tuesday morning	21:07
lcuk	could an aebi be made for gcc? or whatever is needed?	21:07
lardman	lcuk: dso compiler using GCC?	21:07
lardman	s/dso/dsp	21:07
lcuk	yer - its just another cpu architecture	21:07
lardman	it's been started, but not finished iirc	21:08
lcuk	lol	21:08
lardman	I think the project died actually	21:08
ssvb	lardman: basically there are two challenges now: mmap 2MB of memory (770 reboots if I try this stuff) and check whether it is possible to make the pointers not to wrap at page boundaries	21:09
* lardman can't remember the name, but Googling for some combo of "tms320, c55, gcc, compiler" should do the trick		21:09
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lardman	ssvb: I'll try the 2MB mapping thing, perhaps later on as the gf wants to watch a Murder Mystery of no interest to me :)	21:10
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lardman	ssvb: what do you mean by pointer wrapping?	21:10
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lardman	ssvb: are you using *(pointer + offset) = sort of code?	21:10
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ssvb	lardman: right now if you do dst++ = src++, the pointers eventually wrap at 0x10000 boundary as ++ operation only updates lower 16 bits	21:11
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ssvb	lardman: the stuff with *(pointer + offset) works, but it is a lot slower	21:12
HuLsH	and again	21:12
HuLsH	as i see ppl are now alive	21:12
HuLsH	can someone help	21:13
HuLsH	?	21:13
lardman	ssvb: can you cast to (UnsLg) inside the ++ operation?	21:13
ssvb	lardman: it is possible to live with that and still make fast code, but it will still need lots of additional checks	21:13
lardman	ssvb: ok	21:13
zap	doh, I managed to lock up n810 so hard that I had to take the battery off	21:13
ssvb	lardman: anything that involves this stuff is slow :)	21:13
HuLsH	anyone ?	21:14
qwerty12_N800	zap, get used to doing that	21:15
ssvb	lardman: I mean casts to UnsLg, btw, I prefer more standard uint32_t types which are also supported by TI toolchain	21:15
lcuk	HuLsH, ask the question and if ppl are knowedgable about the answer they might be able to respond	21:15
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HuLsH	you are right	21:15
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HuLsH	<HuLsH> i am using fm-radio app	21:16
HuLsH	<HuLsH> and i whant to reinstall my os2008	21:16
HuLsH	<HuLsH> but i cant find the way to somehow "export" the list of fm radio stations	21:16
HuLsH	* juergbi (n=juerg@80-219-17-53.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))	21:16
HuLsH	* juergbi (n=juerg@80-219-17-53.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #maemo	21:16
HuLsH	<HuLsH> that i inserted, so i dont need to type them in again	21:16
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lardman	HuLsH: no idea	21:16
qwerty12_N800	HuLsH, look into gconf	21:16
qwerty12_N800	let me find the gconf key	21:17
* lcuk has never used the radio since i have an 810		21:17
ssvb	lardman: according to spru599, revision 3.0 of c55x should have this pointer wrapping problem fixed	21:17
lardman	ssvb: I never got round to writing the test code to determine which revision we have	21:18
lardman	ssvb: The complier ought to be able to work around it though	21:18
qwerty12_N800	HuLsH, Copy the files inside /var/lib/gconf/apps/maemo/fmradio to another place.	21:19
ssvb	lardman: yes, by generating slow code :)	21:19
qwerty12_N800	Built in backup tool should back it up too.	21:19
ssvb	lardman: which is not exactly what we want	21:19
lardman	ssvb: :) true, perhaps time to dive into the asm...?	21:19
HuLsH	it should ?	21:19
AStorm	ssvb: you're the master, so... where do I get non-Xomap X?	21:19
AStorm	(preferably, with Xv working, but that's not required)	21:20
ssvb	AStorm: why non-Xomap?	21:20
AStorm	as that doesn't work on 2.6.23-rc3-omap?	21:20
AStorm	I only get a white screen	21:21
AStorm	(and yes, it is running, FB is working)	21:21
HuLsH	qwerty12_N800: THANKS !	21:21
lardman	ssvb: did you try the fb output code on the 770? I was getting errors for some reason (though can't remember what they were)	21:21
HuLsH	qwerty12_N800: i will try to see will the backup do it	21:22
AStorm	*2.6.26-rc3-omap	21:22
AStorm	duh	21:22
ssvb	lardman: not yet, first I'm trying to map memory buffer and work with it	21:23
AStorm	so, do you guys know why it might not work?	21:23
ssvb	lardman: I get enough problems even with that :)	21:23
AStorm	missing device node or something?	21:23
lardman	ssvb: that's the fun of DSP programming :/	21:24
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AStorm	maybe it's missing some update functionality or other API which is used by Xomap	21:25
AStorm	I'll ping the linux-omap list	21:26
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RST38h	fMSX 3.5.3 released	21:27
RST38h	(same fixes as the latest iNES basically)	21:27
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RST38h	Yea, that is the right way to off oneself: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/22/toxic.suicide/index.html?eref=edition	21:29
lopz	re	21:31
AStorm	heh, sorry I don't have an english version	21:34
AStorm	http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?kat=1356&wid=9985684 - broken planes anyone? ;P	21:34
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GAN8001	andre, is this the fill in the blank game?	21:35
GAN8001	anrelicious? :P	21:35
GAN8001	andretastic?	21:36
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andre____	:)	21:36
andre____	no, just tried to get a registered irc nick	21:36
GAN8001	Hehe	21:36
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qwerty12_N800	AStorm, I guess English = http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7419280.stm	21:36
RST38h	AStorm: Splendid	21:38
RST38h	AStorm: ratunkowa = emergency (adv) ?	21:38
AStorm	RST38h: more or less	21:39
* RST38h 's ukrainian is kinda weak		21:39
AStorm	it's Polish	21:39
AStorm	;P	21:39
AStorm	qwerty12_N800: yes, that one	21:39
RST38h	AStorm: well, the closest word exists in ukrainian	21:40
RST38h	Polish I do not know.	21:40
mza-	Is there adobe air for maemo?	21:40
mza-	would love to have twhirl	21:40
RST38h	no =)	21:41
AStorm	RST38h: yes, Slavic languages are somewhat related	21:41
mza-	boo	21:41
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AStorm	so guys, I'll install Debian on my internal mmc	21:44
AStorm	one q remains: will canola work there? :P	21:44
AStorm	it's too nice to lose	21:44
AStorm	and I'm too lazy to write a new UI for quodlibet	21:45
qwerty12_N800	I doubt it, depends on how much pymaemo differs from normal python	21:45
qwerty12_N800	plus if it uses anything maemo specific	21:46
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Navi	qwerty12_N800, from the SVN I compiled to the newest, there's only been a 999_block_list and a newer patch for the image scaling hack	21:51
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qwerty12_N800	Navi, Thanks. I'm waiting for them to release the diablo version, no idea if the current one works in diablo.	21:52
Navi	and an update to the gdocs (possible) crashing patch	21:53
Navi	I couldn't get the svn to run	21:53
Navi	which is why I'm on chinook nowadays	21:53
* GAN8001 wishes browser-ui were open.		21:54
qwerty12_N800	I'll try taking a look sometime, chinook + svn beats diablo browser.	21:54
GAN8001	Any progress on those Nokia questions on the wiki?	21:55
Navi	Nokia questions?	21:55
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GAN8001	The spillover from the #maemo-meeting	21:58
thopiekar	hi @ all	21:59
thopiekar	how can i load my application (made with glade) on ubuntu and finally on my iT	22:00
thopiekar	??	22:00
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drwx	Hi today I try to install maemo 4 sdk, I have a lot of broken dependancy packages. I think the maemo sdk is broken. can you comfirm that?	22:02
qwerty12_N800	mikie-scripts by emjayes is nice....	22:03
RST38h	not broken	22:03
RST38h	you are probably installing it on the wrong ubuntu	22:03
drwx	?	22:03
drwx	hardy	22:03
RST38h	you may be installing gutsy packages	22:03
ssvb	lardman: ok, it really helped, I had some problems with .cmd file and now they are fixed	22:04
qwerty12_N800	disable vdso and lower min mmap value. installing packages fails if that isn't done.	22:04
lardman	ssvb: It just dawns on me that the DSP only supports the simultanous data manipulation stuff on 16bit data iirc, so the 24bit pointers will be slower no matter what	22:04
drwx	RST38h: so how can I install it on hardy?	22:05
lardman	ssvb: glad to hear it - when I discovered that it made debugging why a task wouldn't work sooo much easier :)	22:05
RST38h	find hardy packages =)	22:05
ssvb	lardman: it always uses 24 bit pointer,	22:05
qwerty12_N800	"disable vdso and lower min mmap value. installing packages fails if that isn't done"	22:05
thopiekar	drwx, check you package list	22:05
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RST38h	drwx: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=175208	22:06
lardman	ssvb: I know, just saying that pointer stuff probably can't be optimised by the compiler into a set of parallel operations as the data is too wide	22:06
ssvb	lardman: the problem is that when we have pre- or post- increment, only lower 16 bits of it are updated	22:06
RST38h	(and thank qwerty for this thread)	22:06
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qwerty12_N800	hehe, i need to update that thread. using sysctl is easier imho :)	22:07
ssvb	lardman: hmm, there is also this pointer wrap-around problem on N8x0, but I guess OMAP2420 is one of the latest chips and probably should use the c55x silicon revision	22:07
lardman	ssvb: you could presumably work around that knowing the location of the buffers with respect to the page boundary	22:07
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RST38h	qwerty: using sdk+ is easier ;)O	22:08
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, I will never go over to the dark side :p	22:09
ssvb	lardman: yes, for example if we have a function that does color format conversion for a line of pixels, we can make a check if input or output data crosses page boundary and fallback to a slower implementation	22:09
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qwerty12_N800	I really find sb2 awkward.	22:09
RST38h	you messed up colors =)	22:09
thopiekar	qwerty12_N800	22:09
lardman	ssvb: yep	22:09
qwerty12_N800	RST38h, Neva! ;p	22:09
* RST38h just added sb2 to the makefile root and forgot about it completely		22:09
ssvb	lardman: but I would prefer not having this wrap-around problem in order not to clutter code	22:09
thopiekar	do you know how to start a application created with glade??	22:09
lardman	ssvb: I'm still concerned about how to trigger the updates	22:10
RST38h	basically, added CC = sb2 gcc	22:10
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lardman	ssvb: without crashing the DSP by (presumably) filling the ioctl message queue	22:10
qwerty12_N800	thopiekar, no	22:10
ssvb	lardman: could it be that it has 3.0 silicon revision, but some 'compatibility' mode is enabled?	22:10
ssvb	lardman: you could try sending some confirmation to ARM core from DSP task when everything is done and never try doing update when you have a previous one still in process	22:12
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lardman	not sure, will have to read through the compiler docs and see what can be specified	22:13
ssvb	lardman: just read from dsp file descriptor before trying to ask it to do one more update	22:13
lardman	ssvb: I'm concerned about the speed of the ioctl, perhaps my code was very slow, but >0.1s to output Y plane !?	22:13
lardman	may not be the ioctl, the framebuffer update requires a message to be sent back to the ARM	22:14
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ssvb	lardman\|tv: I did a fast check to measure ARM<->DSP performance, looks like we can do ~1000 calls to DSP and get results from it per second	22:16
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drwx	RST38h: thank you I understand my problem now... ;-)	22:16
ssvb	lardman\|tv: it should be enough for just 30fps screen updates, though I still wonder why it is so slow	22:17
qwerty12_N800	drwx, what was i saying?	22:17
drwx	what?	22:19
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qwerty12_N800	"disable vdso and lower min mmap value" - hell that thread is mine too	22:20
drwx	I'm re-installing memo-sdk from hardy repository, it' will works?	22:22
drwx	ok, sorry I did not ready your post. thanks for your solution	22:24
drwx	:-D	22:24
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qwerty12_N800	:) - well, the solutions aren't mine :) (copied from inz and pH5)	22:25
drwx	that's true, so thank's to inz and pH5 too !! 8-)	22:26
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* Cymor is back (gone 14:22:55)		22:46
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matatk	quit	22:58
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blafasel	FF3 RC1 is driving me nuts. I think about switching to Opera already..	23:10
KotCzarny	how about switching to Fx2 ?	23:10
blafasel	Eats far too much of my memory. Tried FF3 because it was supposed to be easier on my resources, but..	23:13
gourdin	blafasel: but ?	23:13
gourdin	it really is	23:13
blafasel	I know that it's only a RC, hopefully the final release will be better.	23:13
gourdin	at least b4 was great	23:13
KotCzarny	my fx2 doesn't eat more than 200-300mb	23:13
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blafasel	gourdin: It is, for sure. But it runs at 90-100% cpu usage every N minute	23:13
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blafasel	N < 10	23:13
lcuk	KotCzarny, morning :) ive had a happy couple of days of coding directly from windows editor and device gcc :)	23:14
KotCzarny	:)	23:14
gourdin	blafasel: yep, same bug here	23:14
gourdin	bug from b5	23:14
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gourdin	I hope there is a report somewhere :)	23:14
blafasel	gourdin: So I hope you understand my rather harsh feelings ;)	23:14
KotCzarny	lcuk: lucky you, i've been mostly sleeping :)	23:14
blafasel	I find lots of coverage online, yes.	23:14
gourdin	blafasel: I do !	23:14
lcuk	not much time left and still lots to do	23:14
gourdin	(konqueror 4.0.3+ is nice:)	23:15
blafasel	lcuk: Will there be a recording of some sort of your presentations?	23:17
lcuk	i sure hope so..	23:18
lcuk	but im technically not there to discuss my program, its obviously going to be brought up though	23:18
lcuk	im making some movies tonight actually..	23:18
KotCzarny	mm	23:18
KotCzarny	movies in the night	23:18
KotCzarny	:)	23:18
lcuk	its a backlit screen, i could be doing it in a cave	23:19
KotCzarny	isn't n810a transreflective?	23:19
blafasel	lcuk: Tonight? What's your timezone?	23:20
timeless	kot: yes	23:21
timeless	i'm not sure how many nokians have had much in the way of chances to vrify that	23:22
KotCzarny	:)	23:22
lcuk	england	23:22
timeless	-lacking sun until this month..	23:22
vinilios	any news about opengl on n800 ?	23:22
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blafasel	lcuk: Ah, so comparable. Are you posting the videos somewhere here? I'm very very curious ;)	23:23
timeless	vin: you don't think it'd make planet.maemo?	23:23
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timeless	rare services may not be available	23:30
lcuk	yes, probably youtube or whatever	23:30
timeless	(sorry, wrong channel)	23:30
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lcuk	vinilios, in how long? nokia have publically offered a "things are in progress" statement	23:33
vinilios	well thats a progress i guess	23:34
lcuk	indeed :)	23:34
* pupnik is using dillo and konqueror more now		23:40
pupnik	ffox is turning into the browser of last resort	23:40
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lcuk	holy mother of god! 244mb "quick" test movie	23:41
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KotCzarny	:)	23:41
KotCzarny	forgot to enable compression?	23:42
lcuk	no, its 640*480 30fps standard file my camera offers	23:42
KotCzarny	what codec?	23:42
pupnik	lcuk: how are you making movies	23:42
KotCzarny	if any	23:42
KotCzarny	:)	23:42
lcuk	i dont have the option for compression	23:42
KotCzarny	probably mjpeg	23:43
pupnik	got a camera that records video in macro mode?	23:43
lcuk	my digital camera wedged into an ironing board (adjustable height ;) ) pointing downwards at the nokia	23:43
KotCzarny	pupnik: fresnel lenses? ;)	23:43
pupnik	ah	23:43
lcuk	im using a piece of card to allow macro zoon to focus correctly then moving it out of the way to get clear shot of the screen held steady	23:43
pupnik	yeah the lcd messes up my focus also	23:44
lcuk	(it wont focus on the lcd)	23:44
GAN800	poor pupnik. :P	23:44
pupnik	well i bought a camera that doesn't use focus	23:44
pupnik	essentially a pinhole HD video cam	23:45
lcuk	anyway, it pisses batteries for fun and wont run when its plugged in so ive been against trying it	23:45
pupnik	hm	23:45
pupnik	yeah most cams were doing mjpeg	23:45
KotCzarny	pupnik: peep cam?	23:45
KotCzarny	:>	23:45
pupnik	now many do mpeg4	23:45
lcuk	its a great outdoors camera for the family stuff - it takes aa batteries and gives good enough shots	23:45
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lcuk	yer, technically i think i should get linux on it, but i cant b arsed :P	23:46
pupnik	there's a doom port for an old kodak digicam	23:47
KotCzarny	O.o	23:47
lcuk	heh :D	23:47
KotCzarny	pupnik, link?	23:47
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pupnik	don't remember where	23:47
KotCzarny	any keywords?	23:48
pupnik	eh, it was so long ago	23:48
lcuk	windows is so fucked, it managed to tell me device not recognised when i plug into a specific usb port, but works in another one	23:48
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KotCzarny	http://digita.mame.net/	23:48
pupnik	http://digita.mame.net/	23:49
pupnik	oh	23:49
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pupnik	maybe your port is dirty	23:49
KotCzarny	or noisy	23:50
lcuk	it works for other devices	23:50
lcuk	its any port other than the one it was installed in	23:50
KotCzarny	fun of computers	23:50
KotCzarny	:)	23:50
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KotCzarny	we expect them to be 0/1	23:51
KotCzarny	but in real life it's not so bright and happy	23:51
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pupnik	bbl	23:53
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