IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2008-04-23

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RST38h	Installed in 1U rackmount cases, and stacked up in a rack, the boards can collectively compile the 25,000 binaries comprising a full Ubuntu distribution (some packages build more than one object file) in about 10 days	00:02
RST38h	Yeaaah	00:02
RST38h	Give monkeys enough typewriters and this is what you get =)	00:02
Navi	all of ITT should get together and run folding@home on our ITs	00:03
GeneralAntilles	Ha	00:03
Navi	We'd be the best of the best	00:03
RST38h	Better yet	00:03
RST38h	We should create a distributed ITT network for compiling 25000 Ubuntu binaries	00:03
Navi	meh	00:04
RST38h	And make one REEEALLY BIG tablet to install them on	00:04
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GeneralAntilles	teh gigatablet	00:06
AStorm	RST38h: we'd easily lose	00:06
RST38h	Lose to whom?	00:06
AStorm	ITT is sloooow at compiling	00:06
AStorm	building perl takes about 30 minutes	00:06
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AStorm	or more	00:07
RST38h	AStorm: They (Ubuntu) built a rack of custom-built ARM-based boards to compile stuff	00:07
AStorm	es	00:07
AStorm	that's the way	00:07
AStorm	or use cross compilers, if you're lazy	00:07
RST38h	They say it is not easy as a lot of Ubuntu packages break when cross-compiled	00:07
AStorm	but to use cross compilers, they'd have to fix certain build systems	00:07
AStorm	yup	00:07
RST38h	So better build a rack of custom boards, yees, the industrial way...	00:08
AStorm	cheap and easy	00:08
RST38h	Still, the whole thing strikes me as very artificial	00:08
AStorm	why? Most ARMs just doesn't have enough power	00:09
RST38h	Who needs this it, especially given such exotic build process?	00:09
AStorm	exotic?	00:09
AStorm	it's just distcc I guess	00:09
RST38h	yea	00:09
AStorm	or maybe a real cluster?	00:09
AStorm	like, uhm, Beowulf?	00:09
AStorm	or large NUMA machine ;P	00:09
RST38h	no, description actually sounds like just a bunch of machines compiling stuff	00:09
AStorm	mhm	00:10
AStorm	so they will still have problems with some packages	00:10
RST38h	they also use Intel ARM chips, those are fast	00:10
RST38h	Oh well, time to go to bed	00:10
AStorm	we need arm11 optimized packages	00:10
AStorm	not some generics	00:10
Navi	Intel xscale chips suck	00:11
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RST38h	They do not	00:11
Navi	do to	00:11
AStorm	they're nice	00:11
Navi	s/to/too/	00:11
infobot	Navi meant: do too	00:11
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RST38h	NaviL they suck at power consumption	00:12
RST38h	But provide decent performance	00:12
AStorm	yep	00:12
Navi	I prefer batterly life over performance on a mobile device :P	00:12
RST38h	And what is in ARM11 that you want to specifically optimize for?	00:12
RST38h	Navi: Well, we know by now that Intel sees it differently :)	00:13
RST38h	And that is probably why it lost to TI in mobile space	00:13
AStorm	RST38h: because Maemo has:	00:13
AStorm	1) VFP	00:13
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AStorm	2) ARM11 has stream instructions (SIMD)	00:14
RST38h	Isn't VFP already being used?	00:14
AStorm	3) its Thumb has denser code	00:14
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RST38h	It is just floating point math, isn't it	00:14
RST38h	?	00:14
AStorm	yup	00:14
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RST38h	Ok, now #3	00:14
RST38h	THUMB exists since ARM7. Every -T labeled CPU has it	00:15
AStorm	there are a few nice new instructions	00:15
AStorm	yes	00:15
RST38h	So, you can actually turn THUMB compilation on in GCC	00:15
RST38h	Finally, #2	00:15
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AStorm	I know...	00:15
AStorm	but ARM11 Thumb is better slightly	00:15
RST38h	If I remember correctly, ARM "SIMD" is basically a bunch of cross-product opcodes	00:15
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AStorm	not that cross-product	00:16
RST38h	stuff like AB+CD	00:16
AStorm	more or less	00:16
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AStorm	that's what MMX is about	00:16
RST38h	Unless you are doing an MPEG decoder this stuff isn't very useful	00:16
AStorm	or MP3 decoder	00:16
AStorm	or any other MDCT	00:16
RST38h	Compiler can't really make use of it	00:16
AStorm	(jpeg?)	00:16
RST38h	correct	00:17
AStorm	yes, compiler can make use of it	00:17
AStorm	at least gcc 4.3	00:17
RST38h	Compiler can prov ide you with a bunch of intrinsics to use this stuff directly in your program	00:17
AStorm	no	00:17
RST38h	This is what Intel does	00:17
AStorm	it will use it	00:17
AStorm	automatically, when deemed optimal	00:17
AStorm	:-)	00:17
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RST38h	Yes, but what is the probability of these things to be deemed optimal?	00:18
AStorm	depends on the code	00:18
RST38h	They are very specific operations	00:18
AStorm	yes, like multiple addition and multiplication	00:18
RST38h	Well, given "normal" average code?	00:18
AStorm	not too often	00:18
RST38h	So, that is why Intel has intrinsics	00:18
AStorm	but it will speed things up where it matters	00:18
AStorm	RST38h: but then you have to rewrite code	00:18
AStorm	= work	00:18
AStorm	insert asm into C, and all	00:18
AStorm	yuck	00:18
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RST38h	AStorm: not exactly	00:19
AStorm	well, the intrinsics are there	00:19
RST38h	AStorm: you insert what looks like C fnunctions into C	00:19
AStorm	but it still is special case code	00:19
RST38h	And compiler (or preprocessor) does the rest	00:19
AStorm	= work	00:19
RST38h	Correct	00:19
AStorm	and looks ugly ;)	00:20
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RST38h	And the reason why it is special case code is because these opcodes are so specific that compiler does not have generic use for them	00:20
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RST38h	One notable exception is, of course DIV :)	00:20
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AStorm	whoops ;)	00:20
RST38h	One notable exception is, of course DIV :)	00:20
AStorm	and multiple sum	00:20
RST38h	that one is less clearly cut	00:21
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AStorm	gcc 4.3 can detect looped addition and optimize it accordingly	00:21
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RST38h	Yes, but how frequently do you do looped addition? :)	00:22
RST38h	Anyways, specific ARM11 optimizations do not look very promising...	00:22
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RST38h	Fuck, RUR/USD is already at 23.4299	00:23
AStorm	RST38h: more important are instruction delays	00:24
RST38h	USD/RUR, actually	00:24
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AStorm	hehehe	00:24
RST38h	AStorm: You mean, they shrunk the number of clocks per instruction?	00:24
AStorm	yes	00:24
AStorm	so allocator can make better decisions with correct data	00:24
RST38h	But this does not require specific optimization ;)	00:24
AStorm	yes	00:24
AStorm	that's just -mtune=arm11etc	00:25
RST38h	At this rate, it is going to hit 20 soon	00:25
AStorm	but Ubuntu will provide generic code	00:25
AStorm	RST38h: huh?	00:25
AStorm	actualy, it will increase I think	00:25
RST38h	And then we will have to build the huge distributed compilation farm out of ITTs! :)	00:25
AStorm	USD is falling	00:25
RST38h	AStorm: yes, but that was USD/RUR rate	00:25
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RST38h	So it is falling	00:26
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AStorm	I prefer tracking USD/EUR	00:26
RST38h	It was 26 just a few months ago	00:26
RST38h	No use for EUR here	00:26
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AStorm	soon, USD will be worth less than the paper it's printed on	00:26
AStorm	;)	00:26
RST38h	I hope the current Supreme Commander gets sentenced before that	00:27
RST38h	Or, at least, finally goes away after 8 years	00:28
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AStorm	and no idiot equal to him appears? ;)	00:28
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RST38h	That is a good question...billion and billion dollar question	00:31
RST38h	So far, we have got a black, a woman, and a post-vietnamese nutcase to choose from	00:32
AStorm	I pick the black.	00:32
GeneralAntilles	They're all terrible.	00:32
AStorm	yep	00:32
AStorm	I'm not a US citizen anyway ;P	00:33
* RST38h no longer cares, black, green, purple, as long as this thing is not republican		00:33
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RST38h	I am, does not change much	00:33
AStorm	yup	00:33
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AStorm	well, Hilary is worse than Obama ;P	00:33
RST38h	But the truth is that the only way the nutcase is gonna lose is if the public finds out he is gay or something	00:34
RST38h	Or, better, a pedophile	00:34
AStorm	or he dies	00:34
AStorm	:P	00:34
RST38h	He will not	00:34
AStorm	Why not, he's damaged already ;P	00:34
RST38h	These guys never duy	00:34
RST38h	die	00:34
* lcuk eyes hurt		00:35
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RST38h	Just look at Cheney - he just goes to sleep in a coffin at some undisclosed location, then bathes in virgins' blood and he is back as new	00:35
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lcuk	a life modelled upon mr burns	00:35
GeneralAntilles	Republic, Democrat	00:35
GeneralAntilles	They're all exactly the same	00:35
GeneralAntilles	s/Republic/Republican/	00:36
RST38h	BTW, the old zoldat has some really interesting plans	00:36
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RST38h	He has mentioned an idea of mandatory (!) work for high-schoolers	00:37
AStorm	rotfl	00:37
AStorm	Hitler Jugend?	00:37
AStorm	;P	00:37
RST38h	More or less like in USSR where in 9-10 grades you spent 1 day a week working at some factory or cleaning school yard	00:37
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AStorm	oh yes, something like that	00:37
RST38h	Not rwally a Hitler Jugend, as everybody absollutely hated it	00:38
GNUton	night	00:39
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RST38h	oh, well, at least I can watch the whole thing from sidelines...	00:40
RST38h	good night all	00:40
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woodwizzle	anyone here use tomboy notes?	00:53
woodwizzle	I'm wondering if I can sync my notes up with my n800	00:53
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woodwizzle	tomboy runs under mono so I doubt I can explicitly run it on the n800	00:54
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woodwizzle	but the notes themselves can probably be synced. There in an .xml format	00:54
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ImMelody	Evenin' fellows :)	01:03
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fysa	look up opensync	01:04
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* Mousey fscks up his tablet AGAIN		01:17
Mousey	dammit!	01:17
Mousey	what did i do??	01:17
* Mousey blames gpe-summary		01:18
fysa	take the battery out.	01:18
qwerty12_N800	What happened?	01:18
AStorm	huh?	01:18
AStorm	gpe-what?	01:18
Mousey	it's worse than that, it's dead jim	01:18
Mousey	it's rebooting over and over again	01:18
AStorm	I have gpe-calendar and gpe-todo	01:18
Mousey	all i was doing was installing packages	01:18
ImMelody	:o	01:18
AStorm	dead? impossible	01:18
qwerty12_N800	Do you get a message about /home something?	01:18
Mousey	with the application installer!	01:18
fysa	did you install powerlaunch?	01:18
ImMelody	flash it	01:18
Mousey	qwerty12_N800: now that you mention it, i did	01:18
AStorm	Mousey: it's not dead, just probably sleeping	01:19
Mousey	qwerty12_N800: something about it not being able to write to .gpe-todo or some such	01:19
AStorm	and powerlaunch has problems starting up on AC	01:19
AStorm	and is suck anyway ;P	01:19
qwerty12_N800	You have to run the gpe programs once in the menu	01:19
Mousey	i hadn't finished installing them yet	01:19
qwerty12_N800	Do you have ssh?	01:19
Mousey	and now its reboot city	01:19
Mousey	yes	01:19
fysa	how quick are you? ;)	01:20
qwerty12_N800	Keep the message on the screen and ssh in 2 run the gpe apps	01:20
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Mousey	what message? "NOKIA"?	01:20
AStorm	qwerty12_N800: nah, it can't boot ;P	01:20
AStorm	Mousey: ok, then	01:20
Mousey	all i get is NOKIA	01:20
AStorm	do you have the battery charged?	01:20
Mousey	fully	01:20
AStorm	mhm, disconnect ac	01:20
AStorm	remove battery	01:20
AStorm	reinsert, power up the device	01:21
qwerty12_N800	It's just hildon desktop that crashes for me with that msg :/	01:21
Mousey	powering up	01:21
AStorm	uhoh	01:21
Mousey	"NOKIA"	01:21
AStorm	Mousey: if it's the desktop rebooting, then I suggest flashing Fanoush' initfs in	01:21
Mousey	aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it's rebooting	01:21
AStorm	and using its ssh or telnet	01:21
ImMelody	why don't you just flash it? :o	01:22
AStorm	ImMelody: because it sucks and loses data ;P	01:22
Mousey	GeneralAntilles has told me to look into fanoush's initfs for about 3 decades now. i guess i have to finally do it	01:22
Mousey	ImMelody: then i have to reinstall all the packages	01:22
qwerty12_N800	You don't have fanoush initfs installed by any chance? Like AStorm says.	01:22
AStorm	yeah, it's very nice, that initfs	01:22
Mousey	ImMelody: thats what i was in the middle of doing [from the LAST time it went reboothappy]	01:22
fysa	try booting once without any mmc cards	01:22
qwerty12_N800	Mousey: You have Linux on host?	01:23
ImMelody	so you're not going to lose very much XD sorry.. trying to find the silver lining..	01:23
Mousey	i haven't used windows in 10 years	01:23
qwerty12_N800	Hehe, good man :)	01:23
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AStorm	Mousey: use Linux flasher, d'oh	01:24
qwerty12_N800	brb, i h8 typing on tablet :(	01:24
qwerty12_N800	Yep, AStorm	01:24
AStorm	ok, back to adding SOAP to the web	01:24
AStorm	as if it doesn't have enough	01:24
Navi	I like IMing on the tablet	01:24
fysa	810?	01:24
Navi	just not long posts and stuff	01:24
Navi	N800	01:25
Mousey	screw this. i'm gonna go see what this fanoush nonsense is all about. i was so happy being ignorant, now i have to go edumacate myself	01:25
Mousey	fysa: 810	01:25
Mousey	long posts no problem	01:25
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Mousey	except when in this state	01:25
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ImMelody	I take it you don't think it's a hardware issue despite it happening twice now	01:26
AStorm	it's not	01:26
AStorm	it's a software issue, with hildon desktop not starting	01:26
ImMelody	ok :)	01:26
GeneralAntilles	I don't have any trouble at all typing on the N800.	01:26
Mousey	ImMelody: no, sorry. i don't have enough info to judge it's the hardware, but the info i do have doesn't point to the hardware, just my own retardedness	01:26
AStorm	I don't have any trouble typing on N810 ;)	01:27
fysa	GeneralAntilles, have you tried any wpm apps?	01:27
Mousey	me either ^_^	01:27
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GeneralAntilles	No, clocked myself at (5-letters-per-word) around 30-60wpm with a few self tests.	01:27
qwerty12_N800	Mousey: Give me time, I'll generate generic fanoush's initfs 4 u	01:28
qwerty12_N800	You can flash with linux flasher.	01:28
AStorm	GeneralAntilles: suck ;)	01:28
GeneralAntilles	Suck?	01:28
AStorm	I'm faster with N810 ;)	01:28
AStorm	although N800 screen keyboard is worse	01:28
GeneralAntilles	70wpm with the N810?	01:28
GeneralAntilles	I don't buy that for a minute.	01:28
Mousey	qwerty12_N800: don't worry about it, i'll study it.. I want to learn how to boot from the other drives anyway. i should know my own hardware. i'm just being a lazy whining n00b	01:28
AStorm	hah, my powerful new method of one hand, 4 finger typing	01:29
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Mousey	AStorm: eww	01:29
AStorm	what?	01:29
* GeneralAntilles calls baloney.		01:29
qwerty12_N800	I've been reading too much fortunes >.<	01:29
AStorm	I'm still making too many errors though.	01:30
AStorm	;)	01:30
Mousey	here's for all you 800/770ers out there	01:32
Mousey	http://www.vouspensez.com/2008/04/22/the-geekiest-pants-ever/	01:32
AStorm	it'd break quickly	01:35
AStorm	and it's ugly	01:35
Mousey	it's for people who play track-and-field with the spacebar	01:35
Mousey	^_^	01:35
Navi	:/	01:36
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ljp	thats funny	01:48
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KotCzarny	yawn	01:50
AStorm	nway	01:50
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ImMelody	wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee code is making me disy	02:18
ImMelody	dizzy XD	02:18
KotCzarny	ride it	02:18
KotCzarny	'I tell my patients, if you can't pronounce it, don't put it in your body'	02:19
KotCzarny	lol	02:19
ImMelody	lol	02:19
ImMelody	but what if you can pronounce just about anything?	02:19
KotCzarny	then you already know what it is	02:20
KotCzarny	usually	02:20
KotCzarny	and know if it's safe or not	02:20
KotCzarny	usally	02:20
KotCzarny	usually	02:20
ImMelody	so what do you do for a living XD	02:20
KotCzarny	nothing	02:20
KotCzarny	:)	02:20
ImMelody	oh ok	02:21
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AStorm	KotCzarny: you're unemployed for a living?	02:24
KotCzarny	i'm just lazy	02:24
KotCzarny	:)	02:24
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ljp	wow. you get paid for being lazy? cool	02:27
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* ljp needs to find a job like that		02:27
KotCzarny	who said anything about being paid?	02:27
KotCzarny	:)	02:27
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ljp	people in australia get paid for being lazy. its called centrelink	02:30
KotCzarny	some kind of wellfare program?	02:30
ljp	sort of.	02:31
flo_lap	hmm... I guess I would take a lot of money for beeing lazy - I don't like this that much ;)	02:34
KotCzarny	Cranberry juice Unsweetened cranberry juice can be used as mouthwash and as a solution for brushing one's teeth. It will kill all motile bacteria on contact and help to disintegrate plaques. Since it is somewhat acidic, probably it should not be used more then a few times a week.	02:42
KotCzarny	lol	02:42
flo_lap	heh	02:43
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AStorm	and it's very sour ;P	02:49
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KotCzarny	better than unsweetened commercial toothpaste :P	02:54
KotCzarny	\|> VA_-_Super_Set_Mixed_by_Yahel-CD-2005-JFK/01-va_-_super_set_mixed_by_yahel.mp3	02:55
AStorm	KotCzarny: well, not that much better	02:56
AStorm	and menthol, xylitol and sorbitol also kill germs	02:56
AStorm	additionaly, are sweet	02:56
KotCzarny	i'm going to try toothpaste based on baking soda + salt	02:56
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lcuk	so does vodka	02:56
KotCzarny	vodka kills braincells too	02:56
lcuk	swill that round first thing and you are good to go	02:56
flo_lap	good night	02:56
AStorm	definitely	02:56
KotCzarny	:)	02:57
lcuk	nite flo	02:57
AStorm	KotCzarny: baking soda damages teeth	02:57
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lcuk	any abrasive does	02:57
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KotCzarny	it's the point of brushing	02:58
lcuk	WARNING: DO NOT CHEW SAND	02:58
Mousey	...	02:58
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AStorm	KotCzarny: no, it's not	02:58
* GeneralAntilles puts diatomaceous earth in lcuk's toothpaste.		02:58
KotCzarny	also, baking soda kills germs too	02:58
lcuk	you don't take the top surface of your pots when you clean them, you jsut want to get the food off	02:58
AStorm	the point is to use something slightly softer than teeth, but harder than plaque	02:58
AStorm	that's why we use toothbrushes	02:58
lcuk	we use toothbrushes because our fingers are too fat to get in the crevises	02:59
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AStorm	that too	02:59
lcuk	but your finger can clean your tongue much more effectively than any of these tongue scrubbers	02:59
KotCzarny	tongue scrubbers?	03:00
KotCzarny	O.o	03:00
lcuk	(the ones on back of toothbrush)	03:00
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lcuk	omg they have torture equipment for it now	03:01
lcuk	i meant the none brush side of the toothbrush having a rough patch specifically for tongue cleaning	03:01
KotCzarny	huh	03:02
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lcuk	http://www.clusterflock.org/images/Colgate_360.jpg	03:02
KotCzarny	fancy	03:02
GeneralAntilles	Hey, it's my toothbrush!	03:02
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GeneralAntilles	The backing is rubber.	03:03
Tama^2	good to see they fully embrace the razorblade marketing technique	03:05
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	03:05
GeneralAntilles	MOAR IZ BETTAR!	03:05
* GeneralAntilles must admit to having a 5-blade razor.		03:05
KotCzarny	from the pic you look unshaved tohugh	03:06
KotCzarny	*though	03:06
qnr-lt	Question: where can I find what the permissions should be for particular directories? I'm having constant problems in certain respects. Apps install but say they didn't (figure they're not able to write some log files or something) - my settings never last through a shutdown, etc.	03:06
woodwizzle	Is there a good python IDE available for maemo?	03:06
qnr-lt	otherwise, things seem to work ok ... N800, OS2008, booting from MMC2	03:07
woodwizzle	MY buddy and I are learning python, and it'd be great if we could run edit and test on the go with the n800	03:07
lcuk	woodwizzle, yes there is. its called pygtkeditor	03:07
KotCzarny	just write a simple pygtk app to do it	03:07
lcuk	its fully designed and tested by a guy on his n800 and now 810 :)	03:08
KotCzarny	or just add the app to menu	03:08
KotCzarny	:)	03:08
Navi	I use pygtkeditor for quick comix tweaks	03:08
woodwizzle	sweetness	03:08
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lcuk	its got syntax highlighting and a run button :)	03:08
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KotCzarny	cool	03:08
KotCzarny	:)	03:08
lcuk	all a person could ask for	03:08
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KotCzarny	what about massage?	03:09
lcuk	oh - and its the only program i know to use the zoom buttons - bigger fonts == + button ;)	03:09
lcuk	no sorry, but khertan himself might do	03:09
KotCzarny	hum	03:09
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KotCzarny	if he is good at it, why not	03:09
KotCzarny	:)	03:09
KotCzarny	otherwise i'll pass	03:09
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lcuk	im off 2 bed, theres a new file on my ftp SDL_scrolly_sync_20080423_closest.zip if you wanna grab it and have a play kot. that function is inside. its defaulted to not running. find it and run it yourself if you wanna have a play	03:12
Navi	lcuk, zomg wut ur ftp :P	03:12
lcuk	its private for now :P	03:12
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lcuk	that code there ^ isnt but i dont have webspace	03:12
KotCzarny	k k	03:12
lcuk	ermmm, hang on a min	03:12
lcuk	http://liquid.googlepages.com/SDL_scrolly_sync_20080423_closest.zip	03:13
lcuk	gnite	03:13
KotCzarny	k k	03:14
KotCzarny	nite	03:14
KotCzarny	:)	03:14
Navi	404	03:15
lcuk	hmm	03:17
KotCzarny	maybe it's missing index.html	03:17
lcuk	KotCzarny, can you see that file i put on google	03:17
KotCzarny	:)	03:17
KotCzarny	lcuk, nope, 404 on google	03:17
KotCzarny	ftp works though	03:17
lcuk	http://liquid.googlepages.com/testfiles	03:20
Navi	thur eet iz	03:20
Navi	woo	03:20
Navi	\o/	03:20
lcuk	i did that the other nite with pupnik and he got it	03:21
lcuk	wonder what was diff	03:21
lcuk	ahhh well, this is just a dirty test program for sdl, this is probably the closest i have gotten to making a smooth verison, but its not perfect and doesnt suit my rendering style still. there may be more someone can do though	03:22
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lcuk	(like follow into shmPutImage and see where the rabbit hole leads	03:23
KotCzarny	hmm	03:23
KotCzarny	me thought for a moment to dump x	03:24
KotCzarny	but it would break compatibility for many apps	03:24
KotCzarny	ok, brushing time	03:24
lcuk	technically sdl can be fired with quite a lot of drivers	03:25
lcuk	there is one for directfb	03:25
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lcuk	plus, we have not seen RGB updates from any library yet at full speed, full resolution	03:25
KotCzarny	grrr	03:31
KotCzarny	you and your absolute paths	03:31
KotCzarny	:)	03:31
KotCzarny	hmm	03:32
KotCzarny	have you seen the first few pixels on the right?	03:32
lcuk	with the scaly thing?	03:32
KotCzarny	no, i mean on that scrolling thing	03:32
lcuk	yes	03:33
KotCzarny	when text goes up and down	03:33
lcuk	im not even sure if thats the ideal version anymore, its the closest i could get it	03:33
KotCzarny	interesting as it goes out of/in sync	03:33
lcuk	it seems to miss a frame every second	03:33
lcuk	! ding	03:33
AStorm	Apparently I'll be able to drive N8x0 from 1x AA even	03:34
KotCzarny	mm?	03:34
lcuk	dont we have ermmmmm whats the power/cpu updater thingy toolbar button whatsit	03:34
KotCzarny	astorm: tested or theory?	03:34
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AStorm	I'll make such an option in my battery pack	03:34
AStorm	KotCzarny: 100% possible	03:34
KotCzarny	lcuk: yes we have	03:34
AStorm	if it can live off 400 mA, surely	03:34
lcuk	that refreshes once a second and takes bandwidth from the lcd	03:34
AStorm	although efficiency will be shiz ;) like 75%	03:35
KotCzarny	erm	03:35
KotCzarny	:/	03:35
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lcuk	it refreshes even if you are doing other things. i noticed when i was messing with the framebuffer right at the start	03:35
AStorm	KotCzarny: Unless I plug that into battery port ;P	03:35
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AStorm	then I would get about 80%	03:36
KotCzarny	astorm: the point is to make that battery pack complimentary	03:36
AStorm	yes	03:36
AStorm	so, 2x AA is more real	03:36
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KotCzarny	and it would fit along top/bottom/back	03:36
AStorm	800 mA at 89% is good	03:36
lcuk	4aa would be minimum for mw	03:36
AStorm	lcuk: nowhere near minimum	03:36
AStorm	much more than required	03:36
AStorm	I'm thinking NiMH, btw	03:37
AStorm	Not alkaline ;P	03:37
AStorm	would need a switch for normal battery too	03:37
lcuk	but i want longevity - play all day on one charge and leave the pack charging at night	03:37
AStorm	yup	03:37
AStorm	2x AA = 2800 mAh	03:37
AStorm	coupled with internal battery, that's a lot	03:37
KotCzarny	astorm: include possibility to piggyback those	03:37
KotCzarny	ie. to use 2 x 2AA	03:38
AStorm	this is inherent	03:38
KotCzarny	or 3 x 2AA	03:38
AStorm	ah, that, hmm	03:38
AStorm	good idea	03:38
AStorm	simple to add, if I get proper plugs	03:38
lcuk	but the AAs will be recharging the internal battery pack? i need to fully charge myself at least twice to do a whole day	03:38
AStorm	lcuk: they will	03:38
AStorm	they'll both charge it and power the device	03:38
KotCzarny	hmm	03:39
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lcuk	im gonna have to get one of these extension chargers before i go on holiday - i will give you results	03:39
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AStorm	it's essentially additional 2400 mAh	03:39
KotCzarny	i whink 890mA is reached only when charging + using the device	03:39
KotCzarny	otherwise it's much less	03:39
AStorm	KotCzarny: no, more can be even	03:39
AStorm	up to 1A	03:39
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AStorm	that's why the device is straining AC-4E sometimes ;P	03:40
KotCzarny	because it goes into trickle charge mode	03:40
AStorm	yes	03:40
AStorm	then it's about up to 250-300 mA	03:40
AStorm	in full load	03:40
lcuk	right, goognight	03:40
KotCzarny	night night	03:40
AStorm	so quite high efficiency	03:40
KotCzarny	:)	03:40
AStorm	night	03:40
KotCzarny	astorm: more i think	03:40
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KotCzarny	3-4h of usage	03:40
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KotCzarny	on 1500mAh internal battery	03:41
AStorm	KotCzarny: 4-5h	03:41
AStorm	let's say 4h	03:41
KotCzarny	k	03:41
KotCzarny	420mA then	03:41
AStorm	400 mA	03:41
AStorm	that includes various losses	03:41
KotCzarny	lcuk: btw. no reboot is needed	03:42
KotCzarny	only kill -9	03:42
KotCzarny	:)	03:42
AStorm	well	03:42
AStorm	with 1x AA (NiCd/NiMH), the max current I'll be able to get will be about 400 mA, but that's old data	03:43
AStorm	these puppies have since improved	03:43
KotCzarny	yup	03:43
KotCzarny	you shouldn't worry about aa cell	03:43
AStorm	yep	03:43
KotCzarny	hmm	03:44
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KotCzarny	6x 2.4Ah AA could be long time	03:44
KotCzarny	:)	03:44
AStorm	ok, have to drop into some shop, but a few MAX1703, schottky diodes, resistors, caps and inductors ;>	03:44
AStorm	KotCzarny: like a few days of usage	03:45
AStorm	6x 2800 mAh would give somewhere like 6x 2600 mAh, due to inefficiency of step-up	03:45
KotCzarny	also you should include cutoff switch	03:45
AStorm	although the link mode could use 4x AA almost directly	03:45
AStorm	with very high efficiency	03:45
AStorm	yes, I will	03:45
KotCzarny	because constant trickle charging may be damaging for internal battery	03:46
AStorm	no, it isn	03:46
AStorm	't	03:46
KotCzarny	it is	03:46
AStorm	it's Li-Poly after all	03:46
KotCzarny	believe me	03:46
AStorm	and it's not trickle-charged	03:46
AStorm	:>	03:46
KotCzarny	it is	03:46
KotCzarny	from what i have seen	03:47
AStorm	I suspect not, just left to unload for a while	03:47
AStorm	then charged back up	03:47
KotCzarny	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/kcbatt/batt2gp.png	03:47
KotCzarny	i believe pink is charging rate	03:47
KotCzarny	or something	03:47
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KotCzarny	i mean violet	03:48
AStorm	where's the AC?	03:48
KotCzarny	i believe it's violet	03:48
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AStorm	if pink is, then it's definitely not trickle charging :>	03:48
KotCzarny	because it goes from 0 to some value after connecting charger	03:49
KotCzarny	look at the data from 24/03	03:49
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KotCzarny	it charges for an hour then goes into some jumping state	03:49
gribouille_	not bad xchat on the tablet	03:49
AStorm	yup	03:50
AStorm	KotCzarny: I think it's protecting from overheating	03:50
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KotCzarny	but then it goes into flat line	03:50
KotCzarny	with some spikes	03:50
KotCzarny	and i think reading is inverted	03:51
KotCzarny	excluding 'not connected' state, which is at real 0	03:51
AStorm	which spikes?	03:51
AStorm	these small at the bottom? it's noise	03:51
AStorm	trickle charge would have to be higher current	03:52
AStorm	like at least 1%	03:52
KotCzarny	hum	03:52
KotCzarny	on the second though you may be right	03:52
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KotCzarny	it may be a fluctuation because of using the device	03:52
KotCzarny	btw. temperature reading is also inverted	03:53
KotCzarny	ie. hhigh on sclae mean low temp	03:53
AStorm	no	03:53
KotCzarny	temp. is blue and red	03:53
AStorm	temp. is read, right	03:54
KotCzarny	yes, because i know when it was hot.	03:54
AStorm	note that it is charging only when temp is low	03:54
KotCzarny	believe me on that	03:54
AStorm	:>	03:54
KotCzarny	ie. look at 24-25/03	03:54
KotCzarny	when it was starting to discharge	03:55
KotCzarny	temp. was high	03:55
KotCzarny	(and reading was low)	03:55
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KotCzarny	then after i went to sleep it gradually fallen	03:55
KotCzarny	(and reading was high)	03:55
AStorm	the slate blue might be battery use	03:56
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KotCzarny	what is slate blue?	03:56
KotCzarny	you have some legend in the middle of the pic	03:57
AStorm	#10	03:57
KotCzarny	i think it may be op_state	03:57
gribouille_	in xchat, I don't see where to put the passwords for servers. Does anyone know ?	03:58
AStorm	in Network window	03:58
AStorm	get to it using menu	03:58
AStorm	or ctrl+something	03:58
AStorm	this kcbatt could be useful for me - where do I get it and will it work on N810?	04:00
KotCzarny	astorm, same server	04:00
KotCzarny	just go up	04:00
AStorm	and how do I make a chart?	04:00
KotCzarny	there should be a subfolder	04:01
KotCzarny	usually i just ran the bin in a screen session	04:01
AStorm	let me check	04:02
KotCzarny	i think it reports battery voltage too	04:02
KotCzarny	but in unscaled values	04:02
AStorm	my N810 should still be charging	04:02
AStorm	mhm, no problem with it	04:02
KotCzarny	btw. if you gather some data let me look at it too	04:03
KotCzarny	i'm interested if n810 is much different	04:03
KotCzarny	from n800	04:03
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KotCzarny	not in values, but more in usage patterns	04:04
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AStorm	hmm, while charging, its telling me like, 4% or 1% ;P	04:13
KotCzarny	don't look at % number	04:13
KotCzarny	it's only a guesstimate	04:13
KotCzarny	look at the field #8	04:13
AStorm	reall guesstimate ;P	04:13
AStorm	#8 is 394 or so	04:13
AStorm	and varies a lot	04:13
AStorm	between runs	04:13
KotCzarny	yup	04:14
KotCzarny	it's raw read	04:14
KotCzarny	without any processing	04:14
KotCzarny	also #3 is the charging rate i think	04:14
KotCzarny	or charging voltage	04:14
AStorm	8 is increasing apparently	04:15
KotCzarny	just look at generated png	04:15
AStorm	3 is 0xdd	04:15
AStorm	nah, I don't have the script yet, wait :-)	04:15
KotCzarny	btw. to gather data use 'batt' binary	04:16
KotCzarny	kcbatt processes data	04:16
AStorm	yup	04:16
AStorm	but not kcbatt -d ;)	04:16
AStorm	wait, d/ling	04:16
KotCzarny	but if you gather data with kcbatt you will have to modify php script	04:16
KotCzarny	that will prepare data for gnuplot	04:17
KotCzarny	:)	04:17
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AStorm	heh, php, ugh	04:17
KotCzarny	you can write converting script in python	04:17
AStorm	sure	04:17
KotCzarny	it's just a shuffling fields	04:17
AStorm	heh	04:17
AStorm	actually, for kcbatt, parsing would be even easier	04:17
KotCzarny	and hex to int conversion	04:18
KotCzarny	astorm, you can modify the batt.c	04:18
AStorm	I know	04:18
KotCzarny	and just generate data in format you want	04:18
AStorm	but I'm lazy ;P	04:18
AStorm	and have to add gnuplot to the IT	04:18
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KotCzarny	actually writing script in python will take more work than modifying printf	04:18
KotCzarny	:)	04:18
AStorm	ya	04:18
KotCzarny	or just copy .dat file to pc	04:18
KotCzarny	:)	04:18
KotCzarny	i like php because of preg_* functions	04:19
KotCzarny	and easiness of operations on arrays	04:19
AStorm	Python has perl regexes too :P	04:19
AStorm	arrays? who needs them when we have dictionaries and lists?	04:20
AStorm	;P	04:20
KotCzarny	i will convert to python one day	04:20
KotCzarny	:)	04:20
KotCzarny	but for now it's faster to write code in php	04:20
KotCzarny	:)	04:20
KotCzarny	i should make some tiny cli php port for IT	04:21
AStorm	there is normal php	04:21
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KotCzarny	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3303700 2007-09-19 20:49 /usr/bin/php*	04:21
KotCzarny	;)	04:21
AStorm	huge, eh?	04:22
KotCzarny	that's kitchen sink for anyone in need	04:22
KotCzarny	+ classes and modules in /usr/share of course	04:22
AStorm	;P	04:22
AStorm	Python is still smaller ;)	04:23
KotCzarny	last time i checked package was ~15mb	04:23
KotCzarny	;)	04:23
KotCzarny	which translated to ~40-60mb of disk space	04:23
KotCzarny	(for python)	04:24
AStorm	not that large	04:24
AStorm	it's mostly .py files, which is text, just bloats out on ext	04:24
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KotCzarny	yup	04:24
KotCzarny	python-2.5.2-i486-1.tgz 01-Mar-2008 19:53 15M	04:24
KotCzarny	15mb	04:24
KotCzarny	let me check installed size	04:25
AStorm	i486? check IT one ;P	04:25
AStorm	there is one too	04:25
KotCzarny	UNCOMPRESSED PACKAGE SIZE: 65500 K	04:25
KotCzarny	64mb	04:25
KotCzarny	:)	04:25
KotCzarny	UNCOMPRESSED PACKAGE SIZE: 19520 K	04:25
KotCzarny	and that's for php	04:26
KotCzarny	;)	04:26
AStorm	wicked	04:26
KotCzarny	yup	04:26
AStorm	its impossible	04:26
KotCzarny	as i said, modules, classes	04:26
AStorm	must be docs	04:26
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KotCzarny	21M python-2.5.2	04:27
KotCzarny	21mb of dosc	04:27
KotCzarny	docs	04:27
KotCzarny	:)	04:27
KotCzarny	still 44mb vs 19	04:27
AStorm	38 MB here on Gentoo, ext4	04:27
KotCzarny	still 2x more	04:27
KotCzarny	:)	04:27
AStorm	hehe	04:28
AStorm	I'll check php	04:28
AStorm	17 MB	04:28
KotCzarny	i have seen working perl in ~500kb	04:29
KotCzarny	and i believe there was similiar version for php too	04:29
KotCzarny	(on openwrt)	04:29
AStorm	I think Python is very shrinkable too	04:31
KotCzarny	yes	04:31
AStorm	lib-dynload takes 3 MB	04:31
AStorm	you can ditch all the .py files too	04:31
AStorm	(after compiling them)	04:31
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AStorm	huh, full collection of .pyc takes 12M	04:32
KotCzarny	fun	04:32
KotCzarny	:)	04:32
AStorm	on ext4	04:32
AStorm	next 12M is .pyo	04:33
AStorm	4M of .so files	04:33
AStorm	13M of .py files	04:33
AStorm	largest module is the test one :>	04:35
KotCzarny	The average human being produces about a litre of saliva every day.	04:36
KotCzarny	:>	04:36
AStorm	yup, why not?	04:36
KotCzarny	fun fact	04:36
KotCzarny	that's 365l/year	04:36
KotCzarny	imagine that amount of salive	04:37
KotCzarny	saliva	04:37
AStorm	hmm, no gnuplot in repos... wth?	04:37
AStorm	gimme a port :-)	04:37
KotCzarny	pf	04:37
KotCzarny	just use sshfs	04:37
KotCzarny	:)	04:37
AStorm	blah blah	04:37
AStorm	I know	04:37
AStorm	but I want gnuplot on IT	04:38
AStorm	for some plotting	04:38
KotCzarny	let me see	04:38
KotCzarny	if it compiles on the first try	04:38
AStorm	whee, gnumeric was updated	04:38
KotCzarny	why don't you setup sbox on your pc? :)	04:39
AStorm	because I have to code stupid SOAP ;P	04:39
AStorm	I'll do during national holiday weekend ;)	04:40
trollasaurus	KotCzarny, The solution was pretty easy... screenshots coming soon	04:40
KotCzarny	huh	04:40
KotCzarny	solution to what?	04:40
* KotCzarny had little sleep today		04:41
trollasaurus	Emulating a Nokia N800 with QEMU	04:41
trollasaurus	(Running Maemo)	04:41
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ImMelody	nini	04:41
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AStorm	uh? there's a port already	04:41
AStorm	so?	04:41
trollasaurus	AStorm, Right, but it doesn't work :-P	04:41
AStorm	no, it does, it's used in Scratchbox	04:41
trollasaurus	I thought Scratchbox used an x86 ?	04:42
AStorm	ofc not everything is emulated	04:42
AStorm	trollasaurus: both ARM + emulation or sbrsh	04:42
AStorm	and x86	04:42
KotCzarny	sbox used some tools natively and some emulated stuff	04:42
trollasaurus	This runs the Nokia blessed firmware unmodified	04:42
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KotCzarny	erm	04:43
KotCzarny	so many deps	04:43
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AStorm	oh, new mplayer	04:43
* KotCzarny hates debian sometimes		04:43
AStorm	.27	04:43
* trollasaurus hates Debian all the time		04:43
KotCzarny	astorm: yup, ssvb announced it few days ago	04:43
AStorm	KotCzarny: well, it deps on X, gfx libs, etc	04:43
AStorm	probably cairo	04:43
KotCzarny	dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: texinfo (>= 4.8) texlive-latex-base \| tetex-bin texlive-latex-recommended \| tetex-extra libgd2-noxpm-dev \| libgd-dev libwxgtk2.6-dev	04:43
KotCzarny	fun, isn't it?	04:43
AStorm	that should be optional	04:43
KotCzarny	:)	04:44
AStorm	libwxgtk is for wx UI	04:44
AStorm	tex is for latex output	04:44
KotCzarny	but libgd is essential	04:44
KotCzarny	i think	04:44
AStorm	yes	04:44
AStorm	does modest .17-2 works with gmail?	04:44
KotCzarny	and nonexistend in armel packages	04:44
AStorm	libgd2? naaah, should be	04:45
KotCzarny	no luck with apt-cache	04:45
GeneralAntilles	Works fine, AStorm.	04:45
AStorm	GeneralAntilles: great	04:46
AStorm	I hope .27 has flv performance improvements	04:46
KotCzarny	libgd should be without user/ in section ?	04:47
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AStorm	might be, who knows	04:49
AStorm	hmm, weird, clock on my N is consistently 1h off	04:49
AStorm	I guess DST didn't record in retu	04:49
KotCzarny	grrr.	04:50
AStorm	and local is used for the clock	04:50
KotCzarny	no love from libgd2	04:50
KotCzarny	even more deps.	04:50
AStorm	;>	04:50
AStorm	like?	04:50
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unixSnob	i hooked up a USB mouse to an n800... and no pointer	04:51
KotCzarny	life	04:51
KotCzarny	;)	04:51
KotCzarny	it's possible to enable it though	04:52
KotCzarny	with a simple folder renaming	04:52
unixSnob	really.. cool	04:52
KotCzarny	in /usr/share/icons i think	04:52
KotCzarny	(and a reboot)	04:52
AStorm	yup	04:52
AStorm	you can install your own theme too	04:52
AStorm	and switch cursor themes w/o reboot even	04:52
KotCzarny	:)	04:52
AStorm	I have to remember how to do that	04:52
KotCzarny	more work	04:52
KotCzarny	dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: gnulib (>= 0.0.20041014-2) devscripts (>= 2.10.7) patchutils (>= 0.2.25) libfontconfig-dev d-shlibs (>= 0.30)	04:53
unixSnob	i've had to reboot a couple times lately.. it gets into a locked scrolling mode	04:53
KotCzarny	that's for libgd2	04:53
AStorm	build deps	04:53
AStorm	not run deps :>	04:53
KotCzarny	yeah	04:53
KotCzarny	but i don't have them	04:53
AStorm	:-)	04:53
AStorm	these are mostly minor	04:53
KotCzarny	so no build	04:53
KotCzarny	sure	04:53
AStorm	so grab them	04:53
KotCzarny	not today	04:53
KotCzarny	:)	04:53
KotCzarny	as i said, if it build without much fuss	04:53
KotCzarny	;)	04:53
KotCzarny	*builds	04:53
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AStorm	hehe	04:54
unixSnob	any of you keep a keyboard in your car, so you can type on the NIT while driving?	04:54
KotCzarny	which is not happening	04:54
* KotCzarny doesn't have a car		04:54
KotCzarny	but i have a kb	04:54
KotCzarny	does it count?	04:54
KotCzarny	:)	04:54
AStorm	ok, how do I switch clocks to UTC and change timezone to be software-applied?	04:54
KotCzarny	change your home city in clock applet	04:54
AStorm	unixSnob: that's crazy and dangerous	04:54
KotCzarny	:)	04:54
AStorm	KotCzarny: I did, it's correct	04:55
KotCzarny	hmm	04:55
GeneralAntilles	unixSnob, . . .	04:55
unixSnob	well keyboarding in the car is a unique problem.. because it will involve cutting a hole to access the USB port	04:55
KotCzarny	then your proggy uses wrong gettime func	04:55
KotCzarny	:)	04:55
AStorm	hehe	04:55
KotCzarny	maybe some hack with /etc/TZ ?	04:55
AStorm	the clock is off	04:55
ds3	add voice recogonition	04:55
KotCzarny	busybox is notorious in that point	04:55
unixSnob	I've been able to participate in forums while driving.. but my messages are short	04:55
KotCzarny	try echo CEST > /etc/TZ	04:55
unixSnob	i figure the keyboard will remedy that	04:56
AStorm	heh	04:56
unixSnob	i wouldn't do IRC while on the road	04:56
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KotCzarny	i think it's useful in traffic jams	04:56
unixSnob	good point	04:57
KotCzarny	when you move <1km/h	04:57
AStorm	KotCzarny: no such file here	04:57
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KotCzarny	astorm: create one	04:57
KotCzarny	doh	04:57
AStorm	made, and?	04:57
unixSnob	or on a highway w/ little traffic	04:57
KotCzarny	and relogin	04:57
KotCzarny	open new term and see	04:57
KotCzarny	or just reopen app	04:57
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AStorm	/etc/localtime is correct	04:57
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GeneralAntilles	You're nuts, unixSnob.	04:57
KotCzarny	busybox doesn't use timeconfig, only TZ	04:58
AStorm	tz is ok too, according to date	04:58
GeneralAntilles	Typing while driving is high idiocy.	04:58
AStorm	but time is 1h off ;P	04:58
KotCzarny	that's what TZ is for	04:58
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KotCzarny	:)	04:58
AStorm	Have to set ntpdate	04:58
AStorm	KotCzarny: no, TZ is correct (according to date proggy)	04:58
AStorm	I think retu is wrong, or something	04:59
KotCzarny	anyway, off to ff8	04:59
unixSnob	well, I'm a pilot, so I'm used to having to concentrate on action in front of me while operating electronics. And I consider the NIT a way to train for that	04:59
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AStorm	unixSnob: do it somewhere else than on the road, please	04:59
AStorm	:-)	04:59
KotCzarny	yup	04:59
GeneralAntilles	You don't have hard objects 20 feet in front of you while flying. :\	04:59
KotCzarny	much more noise on road	04:59
KotCzarny	:)	04:59
KotCzarny	high frequency noise	05:00
KotCzarny	;)	05:00
GeneralAntilles	When you fuck up while in the air, it's usually only you that pays	05:00
KotCzarny	ga: not true, see wtc	05:00
GeneralAntilles	When you do it on the interstate, you're putting other people in danger.	05:00
KotCzarny	;)	05:00
GeneralAntilles	That, in my opinion, is incredibly irresponsible.	05:00
KotCzarny	or any bigger plane crash	05:00
AStorm	KotCzarny: k, there may be hard buildings	05:01
AStorm	and ground too	05:01
AStorm	sometimes other planes ;P	05:01
KotCzarny	and ice clouds	05:01
KotCzarny	:)	05:01
unixSnob	The way pilots handle it is look up most of the time.. look down to press one key, and look up again.. never pressing more than one key w/out looking up	05:02
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AStorm	unixSnob: still that makes at least 20ms in which you can crash	05:02
unixSnob	And that's how I write a forum post while driving.. one key at a time	05:03
AStorm	with planes, it's unlikely :>	05:03
GeneralAntilles	Doesn't matter how you do it.	05:03
GeneralAntilles	Taking your attention off the road is a good way to get yourself and others killed.	05:03
unixSnob	well w/ a keyboard, I don't even have to look down	05:03
AStorm	but in a car, 20ms might be enough to crash, esp. if driving >= 100 km/h	05:03
KotCzarny	yup	05:03
KotCzarny	bt kb can be useful	05:03
unixSnob	I can type w/out looking at the keyboard	05:03
AStorm	and yup, lack of attention is what kills :p	05:03
AStorm	btw, where is the retutime tool?	05:04
KotCzarny	/mnt/initfs ?	05:04
AStorm	damnit	05:04
AStorm	fanoush removed it	05:04
KotCzarny	just a guess	05:04
KotCzarny	:)	05:04
AStorm	at least thinks it's unnecessary	05:04
AStorm	idjit	05:04
KotCzarny	mail him	05:04
KotCzarny	:)	05:04
AStorm	I'll have to fix the initfs then	05:04
KotCzarny	or just copy to regular fs	05:04
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AStorm	ya	05:05
AStorm	but first I have to get orig. initfs unpacked and mountable	05:05
unixSnob	i'm thinking there must be a device out there to make it easier to steer w/ knees	05:05
GeneralAntilles	Nokia should pay him to do kernel hacking for the community.	05:05
AStorm	unixSnob: ubermad	05:05
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, they're called your hands.	05:05
KotCzarny	unixsnob, there was a kb embedded in pants	05:05
AStorm	unixSnob: maybe steering by eyes?	05:05
johnx	knee-hands!	05:05
KotCzarny	complete with trackball	05:05
KotCzarny	:)	05:05
AStorm	you look where you drive ;P	05:05
ds3	just take the train	05:06
AStorm	could be fun to use ;P	05:06
unixSnob	kotczarny - i heard about that keyboard recently	05:06
GeneralAntilles	AStorm, just hope you don't pass any hot women on the sidewalk. O_O	05:06
AStorm	GeneralAntilles: hahaha	05:06
AStorm	yup	05:06
gribouille	does anyone know where I can find a command like netsat for IT OS2008 ?	05:06
AStorm	you mean netstat?	05:06
johnx	busybox has one	05:06
unixSnob	ds3 - apparently you're not in the US :)	05:06
johnx	you want the real thing?	05:06
gribouille	astyes	05:06
gribouille	AStorm, yes	05:06
KotCzarny	http://www.vouspensez.com/2008/04/22/the-geekiest-pants-ever/	05:07
KotCzarny	this one	05:07
AStorm	KotCzarny: I'm feeling lazy, could you put retutime on your server?	05:07
KotCzarny	astorm: where it is?	05:07
KotCzarny	i have fanoush's initfs too	05:07
KotCzarny	:)	05:07
AStorm	should be in /mnt/initfs/sbin	05:07
AStorm	blah	05:08
AStorm	it is there	05:08
KotCzarny	hehe	05:08
AStorm	/mnt/initfs/usr/bin/retutime	05:08
KotCzarny	so you have it?	05:08
KotCzarny	:)	05:08
* AStorm bashes head against keyboard		05:08
AStorm	yup	05:08
ds3	unixSnob: yes, the People's Republic of California has succeded :P	05:08
* unixSnob thinks those pants would be better if the keyboard were a strap on device		05:09
gribouille	netstat gives the following error message : netstat: warning, got bogus unix line	05:09
ds3	trains are fine modes of transportation	05:09
AStorm	ok, retu is keeping time in UTC	05:09
unixSnob	CA only has one overpriced metro rail, right?	05:09
unixSnob	It's not good coverage	05:09
ds3	nope, we got 132493289230492138948123904890123489012849023 different rail systems	05:09
KotCzarny	rail system overflow	05:10
unixSnob	I figure if I get back to CA again, I'll either live next door to work, or fly to work.	05:10
AStorm	US fails at rail systems	05:10
KotCzarny	not true	05:10
AStorm	it does	05:10
KotCzarny	i find nj path quite nice	05:10
AStorm	no trains there	05:10
KotCzarny	:)	05:10
gribouille	can someone try netstat to see if it works ?	05:10
ds3	we got the amtrak stuff, fed run stuff, locally run stuff, state run stuff, and in some area city run stuff	05:10
AStorm	AMTrack doesn't count	05:10
unixSnob	that can't be right.. I lived in LA area 8 years ago.. no trains	05:10
GeneralAntilles	North a bit.	05:11
AStorm	gribouille: also have these	05:11
AStorm	probably some weird unix sockets	05:11
AStorm	try netstat -t for tcp	05:11
AStorm	or -u for udp	05:11
KotCzarny	probably some busybox lack of features	05:11
KotCzarny	:)	05:11
AStorm	no	05:11
AStorm	I have coreutils ;P	05:11
KotCzarny	interesting	05:12
* unixSnob would buy those pants if they were washable		05:12
gribouille	AStorm, you mean the real netstat gives the same error ?	05:12
AStorm	yes	05:12
KotCzarny	linux 2.6.25	05:13
KotCzarny	nice	05:13
KotCzarny	changelog 7.7mb	05:13
KotCzarny	;)	05:13
AStorm	wait, no	05:13
AStorm	netstat is separate ;P	05:13
gribouille	AStorm, why did you install coreutils instaed of busybox ?	05:13
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KotCzarny	has some arm:omap fixes too	05:14
AStorm	gribouille: because busybox is underfeatured	05:14
AStorm	KotCzarny: but we need working wifi and bt	05:14
KotCzarny	nothing about wifi or bt	05:14
AStorm	KotCzarny: how do I check to which package does a file belong?	05:14
KotCzarny	dpkg -S	05:14
AStorm	KotCzarny: that's separate, at least wifi	05:15
KotCzarny	no strings with cx311	05:15
AStorm	blah busybox	05:15
AStorm	KotCzarny: it's a separate driver	05:15
KotCzarny	name it	05:15
KotCzarny	:)	05:15
gribouille	AStorm, didn't it damage your system too mutch ?	05:16
AStorm	gribouille: some minor hassle	05:16
AStorm	mv has problems	05:16
AStorm	uhm, wrong	05:16
AStorm	it had problems, but these went away	05:16
AStorm	after a reboot	05:16
KotCzarny	lol	05:16
AStorm	now it's fine and kicking	05:17
AStorm	just installed net-tools (the pkg that has netstat)	05:17
AStorm	(ifconfig, arp and others too :)	05:17
KotCzarny	including 'reboot' in post-install could be fun	05:17
AStorm	heh	05:18
AStorm	whoooops	05:18
AStorm	still no netstat in net-tools	05:18
AStorm	some idjit stripped it	05:18
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AStorm	ah, forgot --force overwrite	05:19
gribouille	AStorm, but it removes a lot of osso-* packages	05:19
KotCzarny	that's good	05:19
KotCzarny	isn't it?	05:19
KotCzarny	:)	05:19
gribouille	why ?	05:19
KotCzarny	less points of breakage from nokia	05:19
KotCzarny	:)	05:19
KotCzarny	*fewer	05:20
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AStorm	gribouille: you have to hack a few	05:20
AStorm	in the main cache file	05:20
AStorm	where was it...	05:21
gribouille	I'm tired of hacking	05:21
AStorm	not packages	05:21
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AStorm	but the file itself	05:21
AStorm	change data about busybox and that network thingy	05:21
AStorm	ok, normal netstat works ok	05:22
gribouille	wouldn't it be possible to install coreutils in /usr/local ?	05:23
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AStorm	the package is made for /usr	05:23
AStorm	but yes, it should be possible	05:23
AStorm	KotCzarny: where is the main apt package data file located?	05:24
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AStorm	ok, got it	05:25
AStorm	gribouille: you have to hack /var/lib/dpkg/status file a bit	05:25
AStorm	to make busybox not block coreutils	05:25
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KotCzarny	wouldn't it reverse after apt-get update ?	05:25
AStorm	ofc you still have to install it with --force override and dpkg	05:25
AStorm	KotCzarny: no	05:25
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AStorm	unless they upgrade busybox ;P	05:25
KotCzarny	that's a possibility	05:26
AStorm	then it won't install and will cry ;)	05:26
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gribouille	AStorm, where do I have to hack in the file ?	05:27
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AStorm	the cheap and easy way to update it would be to pass overwrite ignorance to dpkg	05:27
AStorm	gribouille: search for busybox	05:27
AStorm	change all packages that dep on busybox to dep on busybox \| coreutils	05:27
AStorm	well, maybe except color-ls ;)	05:27
AStorm	most important are osso-core-busybox and ke-recv	05:28
AStorm	then remove Conflicts line from busybox package status	05:28
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gribouille	if one day I really want to install coreutils, I'll rebuild it with prefix=/usr/local and put /usr/local at the beginning of my PATH	05:30
AStorm	you could alternatively install coreutils with --force conflicts,overwrite	05:32
AStorm	I wonder if there's something like --force ignore-overwrite	05:32
gribouille	yes, but I don't want to break my system	05:32
AStorm	mine (and not just mine) works	05:33
AStorm	but feel free to backup	05:33
AStorm	I haven't changed /bin/sh	05:34
AStorm	but I do have bash3 :-	05:34
AStorm	from nitapps.com	05:34
gribouille	me too	05:34
gribouille	I cant' live without bash ;-)	05:34
AStorm	I can't live with csh	05:35
AStorm	and I have to :-(	05:35
AStorm	busybox' ash is weak, but still better than csh to my eyes	05:35
gribouille	never tried	05:36
AStorm	ash? it's the default shell on IT	05:36
AStorm	I wonder why they didn't use msh, which is more powerful and nicer	05:36
KotCzarny	i can live without csh	05:37
KotCzarny	;)	05:37
gribouille	AStorm, no, csh	05:37
AStorm	gribouille: the default FreeBSD shell	05:37
KotCzarny	it sucks.	05:37
KotCzarny	:)	05:37
AStorm	ya	05:37
gribouille	AStorm, never tried freebsd. I'm a linux guy	05:37
AStorm	linux boi ;)	05:37
KotCzarny	still better than 'doze boi	05:38
KotCzarny	:)	05:38
gribouille	do free wifi hotspots give full access to the INternet ?	05:38
AStorm	most don't	05:39
AStorm	usually they're heavily firewalled	05:39
AStorm	like, port 80, port 443	05:39
gribouille	do they prenvent skype ?	05:39
AStorm	no, that's hard to do	05:39
AStorm	they will reduce performance of it though	05:39
AStorm	you'll use one of skypes zombies^Wrouters	05:40
gribouille	why is it hard to do ?	05:40
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AStorm	because skype uses passive connections through so-called routers	05:40
AStorm	which can listen on port 80 and 443 just fine	05:40
AStorm	it's P2P	05:40
gribouille	yes I know that	05:40
AStorm	some higher bandwidth machines are marked as supersomething or another	05:41
AStorm	and they will route traffic for other users too	05:41
AStorm	the system is automatic and makes the network very hard to block (even packet matching doesn't work reliably)	05:42
gribouille	but it becomes extremely slow	05:43
AStorm	no, why?	05:43
AStorm	slower, yes, but not extremely	05:43
AStorm	there are really a lot of users	05:43
AStorm	and algorithm picks the best router for you	05:43
gribouille	it takes about 10 seconds to ring	05:43
AStorm	that's because it has to make a query in the network	05:44
AStorm	connecting is slow	05:44
AStorm	ringing isn't that bad	05:44
AStorm	that's the problem of version of Skype on IT	05:44
gribouille	will there be a newer version ?	05:45
AStorm	ask Skype, not me	05:46
AStorm	I guess when 2.0 is released for Linux	05:46
AStorm	or slightly later	05:46
AStorm	right now 2.0 for Linux is in beta testing	05:46
AStorm	works nicely	05:46
AStorm	this includes camera	05:47
gribouille	with video ?	05:47
AStorm	yes	05:47
gribouille	great !	05:47
AStorm	but Idk if the tablet can sustain 4 streams	05:47
AStorm	skype will reduce number of frames and quality when running on a slow CPU	05:48
AStorm	but it might not be enough	05:48
AStorm	they might have to use DSP some more	05:48
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AStorm	as Skype is fairly cpu intensive even on my desktop	05:48
AStorm	the 1.4 intermittently fails under load on IT	05:49
AStorm	that's with sound only	05:49
gribouille	anyway, the camera on the tablet is quite weak	05:49
AStorm	not that bad as far as webcams go	05:50
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johnx	it's pretty bad as far as webcams go	05:50
AStorm	blah blah	05:50
gribouille	if you don't move too quickly	05:50
AStorm	workable	05:50
johnx	the old zaurus cam that connected through CF was a little better	05:50
AStorm	if you want something better, connect one though USB	05:51
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johnx	I could I guess. I'll worry about it when skype w/ video is out :P	05:51
AStorm	;P	05:51
AStorm	or SIP works correctly?	05:51
johnx	I can't really picture getting my mom to use SIP	05:52
AStorm	why? NATs abound?	05:52
AStorm	STUN can't pierce through?	05:52
gribouille	is it possible to redirect a call to a normal phone number to skype ?	05:52
AStorm	gribouille: you can buy skype-in afaicr	05:52
AStorm	then use normal call redirection service of your phone company	05:53
johnx	AStorm, NATs and any troubleshooting I did would have to be over skype...	05:53
AStorm	johnx: :>	05:53
AStorm	we need an open P2P-like protocol	05:54
AStorm	might as well be some evolution of Jingle	05:54
AStorm	with proxies and relevant negotiation	05:54
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AStorm	neat, mplayer .27 is faster	06:00
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Jsn0327	When you boot from MMC2, do you have to boot from /dev/mmcblk0p2 ? or is there a way to set it to boot from /dev/mmcblk0p1 ?	06:52
johnx	you just change it in bootmenu.conf	06:52
Jsn0327	do you know the path to bootmenu.conf?	06:53
johnx	it's in the /mnt/initfs IIRC	06:53
Jsn0327	thanks	06:53
johnx	you're using fanoush's initfs right?	06:54
GeneralAntilles	./initfs_flasher/bootmenu.conf.example.n8x0	06:54
Jsn0327	yes	06:54
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johnx	you might need to edit the one that comes in the package and run the initfs_flasher again, space is very tight on /mnt/initfs and you might run out of space	06:55
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Jsn0327	well this is the line in the tutorial that sets the initfs	06:56
Jsn0327	chroot /mnt/initfs cal-tool --set-root-device ask:mmc2	06:56
Jsn0327	i don't see how that would tell initfs flasher to look for the second partition on mmc2	06:56
johnx	read the bootmenu.conf file	06:56
Jsn0327	when you run ./initfs_flash does it scan the MMC at that time to determine which partition the file system is on?	06:57
johnx	no	06:57
GeneralAntilles	bootmenu.conf	06:57
GeneralAntilles	bootmenu.conf	06:57
GeneralAntilles	bootmenu.conf	06:57
johnx	^what he said^	06:57
KotCzarny	maybe someone should tell him to edit bootmenu.conf before starting the script ?	06:58
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johnx	yeah, look at the bootmenu.conf.example.n800 that came with initfs_flasher	06:58
GeneralAntilles	Edit it to your liking, rename it to bootmenu.conf run the initfs_flasher again.	06:58
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Jsn0327	i can't find the initfs directory threw terminal	07:03
johnx	ok, what you need to do: unpack the initfs_flasher.tgz you got from fanoush, edit the bootmenu.conf.example.n800 that it comes with, then run the initfs_flasher script	07:04
Jsn0327	ok	07:04
johnx	s/with, then/with, rename it to bootmenu.conf, then/g	07:05
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infobot	johnx meant: ok, what you need to do: unpack the initfs_flasher.tgz you got from fanoush, edit the bootmenu.conf.example.n800 that it comes with, rename it to bootmenu.conf, then run the initfs_flasher script	07:05
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ekt	hi, i'm missing some libs for xchat and i can't seem to find them	07:08
johnx	have you searched for the packages on gronmayer.com/it ?	07:09
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ekt	yeah	07:09
johnx	what package are you missing?	07:09
ekt	makes me wonder if it's an error	07:09
ekt	one sec	07:09
ekt	libxau0	07:11
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ekt	libdbus-1-2	07:12
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johnx	hmm...are you trying to install the OS2007 version of xchat on OS2008?	07:12
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ekt	oh	07:12
ekt	hm	07:12
Jsn0327	what is the terminal command to remname a file?	07:13
johnx	mv oldname newname	07:13
Jsn0327	rename	07:13
Jsn0327	thanks	07:13
ekt	i browsed in the repository via browser	07:13
ekt	so maybe	07:13
johnx	are you running OS2008? Does the repository have "bora" or "OS2007" somewhere in the name?	07:13
ekt	i can't find a different xchat download tho	07:14
ekt	im 2008	07:14
johnx	http://zeus.rm-fr.net/~skyhusker/xchat-chinook-betas/	07:14
Jsn0327	its not letting me edit the bootmenu.sh because it's read only	07:14
ekt	and the .deb is dated 2006	07:14
KotCzarny	jsn, you don't edit it directly on /mnt/initfs	07:15
KotCzarny	you edit one in fanoush's scripts dir	07:15
johnx	and you want to edit bootmenu.conf.example.n800 not bootmenu.sh	07:15
ekt	sweet, thanks	07:15
Jsn0327	how do you get it to boot to that script	07:15
KotCzarny	...	07:16
KotCzarny	how do you managed to flash fanoush's initfs?	07:16
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KotCzarny	assuming you did	07:16
Jsn0327	# cd /home/user/MyDocs/.documents/	07:17
Jsn0327	# tar zxvf initfs_flasher.tgz (check location of Tar first)	07:17
Jsn0327	# cd initfs_flasher/	07:17
Jsn0327	# ./initfs_flash	07:17
KotCzarny	then between step 3 and 4	07:17
KotCzarny	edit bootmenu.conf	07:17
KotCzarny	which is in initfs_flasher/ somewhere	07:17
KotCzarny	and read README.	07:17
KotCzarny	or anything that resembles docs	07:17
johnx	Jsn0327, KotCzarny means edit "bootmenu.conf.example.n800", mv bootmenu.conf.example.n800 bootmenu.conf, then run ./initfs_flash	07:18
KotCzarny	johnx, cp not mv	07:18
KotCzarny	:)	07:18
KotCzarny	safer	07:18
johnx	that will work too	07:18
KotCzarny	ie. cp bootmenu.conf.example.n800 bootmenu.conf	07:18
KotCzarny	then edit bootmenu.conf	07:18
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Jsn0327	well the bootmenu.sh is getting overwritten either way. what does it matter if you edit it or not? What i was doing was saving the current bootmenu.sh as a backup and replacing it.	07:20
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johnx	fine, do whatever you want	07:20
Jsn0327	is there anyway to access the file system threw file manager? I have GEP file manager but i don't think there is a search feature in it	07:21
KotCzarny	johnx: surrendered so soon? :>	07:22
KotCzarny	*given up	07:22
KotCzarny	or even *gave up	07:22
johnx	meh	07:22
johnx	Jsn0327, all I can say is that the way I suggested you do it will work if you do it correctly	07:23
johnx	if you want to see where in fanoush's scripts it reads in bootmenu.conf then read the code	07:23
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Jsn0327	well i can't edit/copy/write to anything. even as root in terminal it says that it is a read only file system	07:25
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johnx	yes, that's why you edit the file that came with initfs_flasher then run initfs_flasher again	07:25
johnx	...or you could remount /mnt/initfs read/write but it will probably run out of space trying to write back the file	07:25
Jsn0327	i can't edit any files in the /mnt/initfs directory	07:27
KotCzarny	jsn: have you paid any attention what i have told you?	07:27
johnx	yes, I know	07:27
Jsn0327	i think i'm understanding what you mean now	07:27
Jsn0327	i thought that you were talking about a file within the initfs directory	07:28
KotCzarny	yes, that file is the one that's used by bootloader	07:28
KotCzarny	but to edit it you need to edit a copy and flash it	07:28
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n800n	has anyone gotten wikipedia to work offline on os2008?	07:36
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KotCzarny	no problem, just install apache, php, mediawiki and download wikipedia db	07:37
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n800n	can i install apache here?	07:38
KotCzarny	probably	07:38
n800n	i have the giant xml file	07:38
johnx	n800n, there are some alternatives to making your n800 into a wikipedia server	07:39
johnx	sdictviewer has a wikipedia "dictionary" available IIRC	07:39
KotCzarny	http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/apache/	07:39
johnx	and there is something called mokopedia I believe	07:39
n800n	checking	07:40
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n800n	sdict seems a better choice	07:54
n800n	thanks	07:54
Jsn0327	johnx and KotCzarny thanks for your help	07:55
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soman	zuh: hi...	08:43
soman	Zuh: iam struck with playbin ... could nt redirect the video output to my app window...	08:44
soman	zuh: any pointers regarding this	08:44
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woodwizzle	i know maemo isn't a PDA, but I would like to keep a calendar on it if possible. Syncing with a desktop or web calendar would be nesecary (currently i'm not doing the calendar thing so I'm open to any backend).	09:21
woodwizzle	i know dates is already available, but I don't think it syncs up.	09:22
johnx	ermining (sp?) w/ gpe-calendar apparently has some ability to sync to google calendar	09:22
johnx	it's somewhat manual from what I understand	09:22
woodwizzle	syncing with evolution would be cooler than google to me	09:22
johnx	I don't know much calendars and syncing	09:23
johnx	the calendars that I know exist are gpe-calendar, dates and gene cash's calend	09:23
woodwizzle	cool, i'll check out gpe and calend then, thanks	09:24
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soman	how to install playbinmaemo on N810	09:37
soman	any pointers	09:37
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qwerty12	KotCzarny, you around? I got a quick (very little) question.	09:58
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KotCzarny	shoot	09:59
* johnx installs xfce4 on Debian :)		09:59
qwerty12	You know, is my retu damaged or my kernel when kcbatt's debug mode returns all of the values from retu as ffffff?	09:59
KotCzarny	hmm	10:00
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KotCzarny	maybe some patch interferes	10:00
qwerty12	Maybe, thanks.	10:00
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KotCzarny	but battery applet works?	10:00
qwerty12	Yes	10:00
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Locky	DCC SEND "startkeylogger" 0 0 0	10:00
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KotCzarny	locky, it's a linux chan	10:01
qwerty12	I'm compiling a new kernel atm, I'll try that out. If it works, you will all have something you may like ;)	10:01
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qwerty12	But now, school calls me. And the homework I haven't done :/	10:01
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KotCzarny	i'm done with ff8	10:02
KotCzarny	should i start ff9 or shouldn't i	10:02
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johnx	KotCzarny, kcbatt works ok in Debian it seems :D	10:03
KotCzarny	johnx: yes, as long you use nokia's kernel	10:04
johnx	well, there aren't any good choices right now, so I'm not worrying about the kernel	10:05
KotCzarny	that was the main reason to write it	10:05
KotCzarny	to have something with smallest set of deps	10:05
johnx	well, thanks for writing it. :)	10:05
KotCzarny	johnx: :)	10:06
KotCzarny	btw. if anyone wants it to be more correct it should run all the time and use some math to approximate curves	10:06
KotCzarny	and do the math about min/max time	10:06
KotCzarny	if you get ahold of any generic battery applet	10:07
johnx	yeah, I was thinking about that	10:07
johnx	the one for the zaurus should be adaptable	10:07
KotCzarny	data read function is simple enough to adapt	10:08
KotCzarny	bah, it's a single ioctl	10:08
KotCzarny	:)	10:08
RST38h	yep	10:08
KotCzarny	the only problem is scaling raw values :>	10:08
KotCzarny	i approximated them as 380-560 (min-max)	10:09
KotCzarny	under low load it can go to 240	10:09
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KotCzarny	but then you risk reboot on any load :>	10:09
johnx	I should plot battery discharge in Debian with the same script you used to see how well power management is working	10:09
KotCzarny	mhm	10:10
KotCzarny	btw. kcbatt takes some params	10:10
KotCzarny	try -h :)	10:10
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RST38h	BTW, how about a transparent desktop widget that shows current temperature and illumination level?	10:12
RST38h	Something small and python-less	10:12
KotCzarny	rst38h: i was thinking about it, and got sidetracked	10:12
KotCzarny	ie, xlib app should be hard to write	10:13
RST38h	Why?	10:13
lopz	night	10:13
KotCzarny	erm	10:13
KotCzarny	s/should/shouldn't/	10:13
RST38h	Oh	10:13
KotCzarny	it's late here	10:13
KotCzarny	;)	10:13
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RST38h	With an applet like this, the whole thing will get close to a tricorder ;)	10:14
KotCzarny	tricorder?	10:14
RST38h	KotCzarny <-- somehow escaped exposure to StarTrek	10:14
RST38h	Weird.	10:14
KotCzarny	:)	10:14
KotCzarny	yup	10:14
KotCzarny	i sidestepped some memes	10:15
RST38h	Of course, it will still miss a geiger counter...	10:15
KotCzarny	why?	10:15
KotCzarny	find usb one	10:15
KotCzarny	:)	10:15
RST38h	clumsy	10:15
KotCzarny	then bt one	10:15
RST38h	Albeit current-gps-location-with map widget is also a must ;)	10:16
KotCzarny	that's what maemo-mapper is for	10:16
RST38h	yes, but it looks less like a tricorder	10:17
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KotCzarny	themeize it	10:18
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RST38h	Ok, ColEm is almost ready for release	10:20
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tsukasa	yo	10:30
johnx	hi	10:30
tsukasa	mmm does anyone know if nokia is releasing a new n series this year?	10:31
tsukasa	or early next	10:31
tsukasa	all ive heard was the wimax in 08 which was released	10:31
tsukasa	which makes me think theyre done for now =(	10:31
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johnx	yeah, I think everyone who is making predictions is saying late '08/early '09 but Nokia has had surprises up their sleeve before	10:32
MangoFusion	i heard a rumour that they are going to release...	10:34
MangoFusion	the Nokia Nii!	10:34
KotCzarny	NiiNtendo?	10:34
tsukasa	so no one here is on the inside and can hint a quarter	10:36
tsukasa	;)	10:36
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johnx	tsukasa, read Texrat's hints on itt and see if you can make something of them	10:42
tsukasa	itt?	10:42
tsukasa	oh	10:42
tsukasa	internettablettalk	10:42
johnx	internettablettalk.com/forums	10:42
johnx	yeah	10:42
tsukasa	johnx, wheres the post under?	10:43
johnx	he has posts all over the place	10:43
johnx	most of them have very little information, but he seems excited about something after the n810 w/ wimax	10:44
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* KotCzarny starts a rumour about n880		10:44
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tsukasa	okay lets play a game	10:52
tsukasa	i just got my tax refunds in and have enough money for a n800	10:52
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tsukasa	whoever can find the best price on one gets a cookie	10:52
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tsukasa	a choclate chip cookie =O	10:52
KotCzarny	sugar is bad for teeth	10:52
tsukasa	so is your mom	10:53
KotCzarny	not true	10:53
MangoFusion	$1	10:53
MangoFusion	nah ;)	10:54
gpd	anyone seen instructions for numptyphysics - ie. what the buttons do when you click on the middle button?	10:54
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gpd	http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/ <- it appears to be here	10:57
tsukasa	http://www.overstockdealz.com/products.asp?id=N800R&referer=google	10:57
tsukasa	175	10:57
tsukasa	can anyone find better?	10:57
KotCzarny	i got mine for 150	10:57
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tsukasa	where	10:57
KotCzarny	cl	10:57
tsukasa	i live in a small town =P	10:58
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KotCzarny	find big one closest to you	10:58
tsukasa	nada there	10:58
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RST38h	All right, ColEm is out	10:59
RST38h	Get it here: http://fms.komkon.org/ColEm/	10:59
RST38h	(Do not click on "install directly" as it is not in the extras repository yet)	10:59
KotCzarny	o.o	11:00
MangoFusion	sounds nea	11:00
MangoFusion	t	11:00
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pupnik	awesome RST38h	11:13
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RST38h	pupnik: I will release the EMULib source code separately in a while, but if you want to look, it is part of the ColEm source (on a web page)	11:18
RST38h	EMULib and EMULib/Maemo	11:19
pupnik	i played original colecovision :)	11:24
pupnik	will look sometime	11:24
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tsukasa	question to n800 lovers	11:28
tsukasa	how much of this article is still true: http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/	11:28
KotCzarny	perv	11:28
tsukasa	before i get one	11:28
KotCzarny	that depends how hardcore newton user you are	11:29
tsukasa	i mean in terms of the interface sucking	11:29
KotCzarny	it's a linux	11:29
KotCzarny	interface can be changed	11:29
KotCzarny	for kde	11:29
KotCzarny	etc	11:29
tsukasa	are there many good interfaces for the 800	11:29
tsukasa	ill define good	11:29
tsukasa	super minamilistic while functional	11:30
pupnik	xterm	11:30
tsukasa	dude its a software keyboard	11:30
pupnik	my bluetooth keyboard waves 'hello'	11:30
tsukasa	too clunky	11:30
* KotCzarny bt kb sleeps		11:30
pupnik	no if you go from the newton perspective, you will not like it	11:30
pupnik	if you like the idea of a linux computer in your pocket, you will like it	11:31
pupnik	other use-cases also will yield 'like it'	11:31
tsukasa	okay well, does it allow for you to change the interface completely, and are there user made interfaces	11:32
tsukasa	perhaps in a nice galley on the web somewhere?	11:32
pupnik	yes but they are ports of linux desktops	11:32
Dist	tsukasa: Rotation support can be added, though that's cludgy	11:33
tsukasa	do they work well? kde or gnome on n800	11:33
tsukasa	well i dont rotate that much	11:34
jani	tsukasa: ui is based on gtk widgets which gnome uses also so things arent that different..	11:34
KotCzarny	tsukasa: treat maemo as a work in progress	11:35
KotCzarny	every year they add something nice	11:35
tsukasa	KotCzarny, what do you use?	11:36
KotCzarny	the best thing for me is ability to compile regular software for it	11:36
tsukasa	yeah thats what is attracting me to it in the first place	11:36
KotCzarny	games, media (xmms), ebook reader, web browser, ssh	11:37
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pupnik	for that, i think it's the coolest thing ever	11:37
KotCzarny	yup, if one likes to hack, it's the best	11:38
KotCzarny	otherwise it may not reach the expectations	11:38
tsukasa	what about the interface though	11:38
KotCzarny	works for me	11:38
tsukasa	like im looking at hildon ss on the n800	11:38
pupnik	i click on menu and launch programs	11:38
pupnik	that's the interface for me	11:38
KotCzarny	status bar is nice too	11:39
tsukasa	isnt there a huge bar on the right side that doesnt go away though	11:39
KotCzarny	clock is essential for me	11:39
tsukasa	left*	11:39
KotCzarny	tsukasa: if you enable roation support you can move it	11:39
pupnik	apps can go fullscreen too	11:39
KotCzarny	http://sse2.net/rotate/	11:39
tsukasa	see thats what i dont want though, i want a super minimalistic interface	11:39
tsukasa	eg make that bar integrated into another and 3 pixels	11:40
KotCzarny	http://sse2.net/rotate/shot02.png	11:40
KotCzarny	is it minimalistic enough?	11:40
tsukasa	is that fullscreen?	11:40
KotCzarny	yes	11:40
tsukasa	from the youtube videos ive seen it takes like a second to switch	11:40
tsukasa	with a flicker	11:40
KotCzarny	and you have hardware keys to call app menu etc	11:41
tsukasa	ideally id have the gui so minimalistic that it is essentially always in fullscreen	11:41
tsukasa	3 pixel menu bar	11:41
tsukasa	maybe a bit larger but you get the idea	11:41
KotCzarny	i think that menu bar on the left is customizable with theme	11:41
tsukasa	can you integrate it with the top bar	11:42
KotCzarny	simply replace 80 with 3 and you get your's 3px bar	11:42
pupnik	that's news to me	11:42
KotCzarny	pupnik, yup, that's what i have done at the beginning	11:42
KotCzarny	i was looking for a way to make that taskbar go away	11:43
KotCzarny	:)	11:43
tsukasa	KotCzarny, okay looking at this snapshot http://pidgin.garage.maemo.org/images/Maemo-Pidgin-Screenshot.png	11:43
KotCzarny	that looks like a os2007	11:44
tsukasa	is it possible to make the top bar autohiding, the left bar tiny, and the window title 2px	11:44
tsukasa	its the same layout isnt it?	11:44
KotCzarny	similiar	11:44
KotCzarny	if you invest your time in building a theme then i think it's possible (without sliding part)	11:45
pupnik	tsukasa: there's a hardware button to make apps go fullscreen	11:45
pupnik	right under your index finger, left hand side	11:45
luogni	tsukasa, just press the fullscreen button, it's really useful to switch from/to fullscreen (and fast)	11:45
tsukasa	pupnik, i know but the youtube videos ive seen show a 1 second lag and a screen flicker with that	11:45
tsukasa	plus i actually want the gui elements to be there	11:45
tsukasa	just infinitely less obtrusive	11:45
pupnik	then make it so!	11:46
KotCzarny	tsukasa, write/port some floating always-on-top bar?	11:46
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tsukasa	KotCzarny, im not that great at coding	11:46
tsukasa	whats involved in theming?	11:46
tsukasa	sliders or config files?	11:46
KotCzarny	have you ever heard about gtkrc ?	11:46
tsukasa	heard about yes used no	11:47
tsukasa	ive seen emerald theming	11:47
tsukasa	thats easy	11:47
KotCzarny	i think things may get complicated for you then :)	11:47
tsukasa	let me guess, its a giant list of key/value pairs	11:47
KotCzarny	kind of	11:48
KotCzarny	:)	11:48
tsukasa	sigh	11:48
KotCzarny	i have yet to spot a gtk theme editor	11:48
pupnik	theme maker	11:48
KotCzarny	pupnik: after adding simple parsing it can double as editor :)	11:49
KotCzarny	tsukasa: be prepared for the worst	11:49
KotCzarny	pupnik: does sdk provide usable maemo emulation?	11:49
KotCzarny	ie. to 'try and feel'	11:50
pupnik	ah good suggestion	11:50
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pupnik	http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/ tsukasa	11:50
KotCzarny	tsukasa: there's an updated review from the same guy: http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800/os2008/	11:51
KotCzarny	:)	11:51
pupnik	that guy is lucky he doesn't allow comments	11:52
KotCzarny	it should be noted 'for hxc newton users'	11:52
KotCzarny	:)	11:52
tsukasa	well its always good to read the review of the uber critic	11:53
pupnik	he's obviously not getting laid	11:53
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pupnik	reading through it, there are many good points	11:58
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tsukasa	yeah	11:59
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tsukasa	hmm sleep intrigues me	11:59
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tsukasa	does it work as bad as he claims?	11:59
tsukasa	(still?)	11:59
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KotCzarny	don't know nothing about it	11:59
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KotCzarny	if i turn wifi off and have no badly written apps i get that ~10 days in standby	12:00
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pupnik	the dude clearly can't convince any female to fuck him	12:01
tsukasa	yeah but if its possible to get 30 day standby	12:01
tsukasa	im sold	12:01
tsukasa	because that is amazing	12:01
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KotCzarny	if astorm finally gets around to make 2xAA external battery pack, then yes	12:02
KotCzarny	;)	12:02
pupnik	why the fuck do you care about 30 day standby	12:02
tsukasa	how does it fit in your pocket anyways	12:02
KotCzarny	good	12:02
tsukasa	pupnik, im a battery life whore	12:02
AStorm	hehehe	12:02
tsukasa	i slapped linux on my MBP for battery life	12:02
tsukasa	<3 powertop	12:02
AStorm	tsukasa: 2x AA should fit quite well	12:02
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pupnik	some people have 'problems' that make me want to bitchslap them	12:04
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KotCzarny	pupnik: i like the idea of 2 or 4xAA battery pack	12:04
KotCzarny	:>	12:04
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pupnik	yeah i have a spare power connector. will test it without a regulator on 770	12:05
KotCzarny	yyawn	12:05
KotCzarny	darn.	12:05
KotCzarny	it's morning again.	12:06
KotCzarny	gotta catch some sleep	12:06
pupnik	cheers KotCzarny	12:06
KotCzarny	night night	12:06
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RST38h	midday, so it seems	12:06
AStorm	pupnik: you mean, you want to try 4x AA directly? let me tell how that fares	12:07
AStorm	it will work	12:07
AStorm	but if these are NiMH, the voltage may drop too much for further use after some time	12:07
AStorm	even though they aren't discharged	12:07
AStorm	you need at least a cheap power regulator	12:08
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AStorm	it's low to start with, 4,8V	12:08
pupnik	yes i'm curious how long before voltage drops too much	12:08
AStorm	if it drops more than about 0.2V, you lose	12:09
AStorm	I think about 2/3 of the capacity	12:09
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AStorm	ah, wait, no	12:09
pupnik	ah then it will be pretty useless	12:09
AStorm	it'll drop then by 0,1V	12:09
AStorm	which may or may not work	12:09
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AStorm	4,8V is pretty much guaranteed to work	12:09
pupnik	i just rarely run out of battery	12:11
pupnik	like twice this year	12:11
AStorm	:-)	12:12
AStorm	I also don't, but it's a close shave	12:12
AStorm	I certainly would if I used N as an MP3 player	12:12
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tsukasa	hmm	12:13
Dist	My N95 shuts down every day just because I happen to use N810 through it	12:13
tsukasa	i guess i have one final question about the 800	12:13
tsukasa	can it connect to wpa/wpa2/wpa enterprise with peap	12:14
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pupnik	http://www.google.com/search?q=n800+wpa+peap	12:24
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florian	good morning	12:38
lardman	does anyone happen to know if C++ strings in structs are still zero terminated if they reach their maximum length in the struct? Don't tell me, up to the compiler....?	12:40
lardman	s/string/char array	12:41
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inz	Why would char arrays in a struct differ from ones outside?	12:42
kaatis	lardman, i believe it's std library implementation specific	12:42
lardman	inz: only because if you don't meet the trailing 0x0 and you are at the know length of the array, you could not bother using one	12:42
lardman	though I imagine it will be included anyway	12:43
lardman	actually it was a silly question, need more caffeine to wake the brain	12:43
lardman	kaatis: cheers	12:43
lardman	~lart translating C++ into MATLAB	12:44
* infobot pries translating C++ into MATLAB's back open with a screwdriver and flashes a new bootldr to translating C++ into MATLAB		12:44
inz	lardman, can't be as pita as translating MATLAB into C	12:45
lardman	inz: yeah that is a real pain	12:45
derf	Depends on the C++.	12:46
derf	Matlab's language is basically completely deficient in a number of areas.	12:46
lardman	derf: yes, my question was a bit silly as it's up to the code using the array	12:46
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lardman	but make up for it many times over by not needing to do array sizing	12:47
derf	I don't often spend a lot of time worrying about array sizing.	12:47
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derf	And I'm mostly confused by people who do.	12:47
lardman	ah, my work is pretty much about manipulating image data in time, and taking chunks for it for processing, so lots of arrays	12:48
derf	lardman: So is mine.	12:48
lardman	theora stuff	12:49
derf	As well as my actual job.	12:50
lardman	ah, I didn't know if that was your actual job :)	12:50
derf	Theora is not.	12:50
lardman	ah, ok	12:50
derf	But no, I got my Ph.D. doing image analysis... and I'm probably the only person in the entire field who hates matlab.	12:53
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lardman	:) what do you hate about it?	12:53
lardman	out of interest	12:53
derf	It might be okay for doing an extremely small, limited set of things.	12:54
derf	The problems I want to solve almost never stay within that extremely small, limited set.	12:54
lardman	surely you then just write some code to cover a large set of things?	12:54
derf	No, I mean the language.	12:55
derf	Suddenly everything outside of that set becomes much more difficult to do.	12:55
derf	Almost as if these concepts were bolted on as an afterthought (gee, I can't imagine that's what happened).	12:55
derf	And I'd rather use a language that's mediocre at lots of things than one that's extremely good at a small set of things, and godawful at everything else.	12:56
lardman	I suppose it depends what you need to do, but as a procedural language it fits the bill, and saves having to write the glue code (array manipulation, various mathematical operations, etc.)	12:57
derf	You know, I can use LAPACK in C, too, if I really want to.	12:57
lardman	but it's more painful	12:57
derf	Matlab's problem is that it _requires_ obtuse array maniuplation to do anything.	12:58
derf	Including things that should have nothing to do with arrays.	12:58
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lardman	yes, but it trades that for cleaner code for things that do use arrays	12:59
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Khertan_TheReal	Joint	12:59
Khertan_TheReal	oups ...	12:59
Khertan_TheReal	Hi ! :)	12:59
derf	Which gets you crazy things like permute(reshape(fliplr(...),3,3,:),[1 3 2]) ... which leave you staring at that going, "What the hell does it _do_?"	12:59
lardman	but you cold write that in a different (slower) way if you wanted	13:00
lardman	s/cold/could	13:00
derf	Sure, but in matlab "slower" becomes by orders of magnitude, so nobody does.	13:00
lardman	but yes, the optimisations lead to obscure code	13:01
derf	They're not really optimizations.	13:01
derf	They're basically required.	13:01
lardman	agreed	13:01
derf	That's like saying, well, you _could_ use a garbage collector in C, so you can't complain about the fact that it makes you manually allocate things.	13:02
lardman	well if you wanted to garbage collect it would mean you'd need to write the glue code, the same is not true of MATLAB, you can write it whichever way you want, and then it just runs slower one way	13:02
lardman	or even both ways :)	13:03
jott	i see matlab rather as a prototyping language and for that matter it fulfills its purpose imo	13:03
lardman	yes, I was going to say that - to tackle new problems quickly, it does its job and allows you to tackle the algorithm (for which the obscure bits can be twiddled later) rather than the glue	13:04
lardman	though if I'd started using C rather than MATLAB and had written a library of functions to handle n-dim arrays, etc., I may not be so bothered about the 'advantages' that MATLAB has	13:06
jott	atleast the matlab convention trains you to think vectorized so it has some didactical value :)	13:08
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lardman	it also has simulink which is why I started using it	13:11
lardman	bbiab	13:11
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Khertan_TheReal	does many of u use google calendar ?	13:23
Khertan_TheReal	i ask because i ll release a in few week a new calendar application for maemo ...	13:23
Khertan_TheReal	but it need syncing ...	13:23
Khertan_TheReal	so i ve two choice ... porting it to desktop, or using an online calendar ...	13:24
Khertan_TheReal	an other one will be to add support in erminig too	13:24
glass	if you want someone to use your calender, it better sync with something at least..	13:26
Khertan_TheReal	i ll make sync ... personnaly i ve preferences for google agenda	13:27
Khertan_TheReal	i ll be the main user ... the purpose of it is to have a calendar app that i ll use	13:27
Khertan_TheReal	not a killer application (but i still hope :) )	13:28
Khertan_TheReal	in fact it's a fork on winzing calendar ... with customisation, simplification, and some gui change to be easily be used on a nit	13:28
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soman	kulve: i solved the problem... now im getting the playbin video on my app window	14:10
soman	thanks for ur support	14:10
kulve	soman: great. What was the problem?	14:12
soman	the problem was the message was not exposed on the bus.,.. so i explicitly posted the message on the bus, and got it	14:15
soman	anyway thanks for ur support...	14:15
soman	would like to be in touch with you,,, in future	14:15
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hendry	is there a trick to make chinook keep its wlan0 online?	15:55
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pupnik	ping works	16:02
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mbuf	how can i run while (event) { inotifytools_printf} and also invoke gtk_main() ?	16:04
hendry	i thought there might be some hidden option somewhere	16:04
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hendry	who maintains http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/download/repo/dists/ ?	16:46
X-Fade_	hendry: I think some of the indt guys do that.	16:47
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Navi	Ooh	17:06
Navi	haptic feedback on the 5800	17:07
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qwerty12	Argh! God hates me :(. This kernel I built isn't booting. I'm gonna have to recompile :(	17:32
Navi	:(	17:33
qwerty12	I'm working on something good as well. Hopefully more functional than that unionfs I put out. :)	17:34
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Navi	\o/	17:35
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fysa	\o/ = seconded	17:44
fysa	BTW qwerty12, I am running your super kernel.	17:45
fysa	thanks for that.	17:45
qwerty12	fysa, nice :). np :)	17:45
qwerty12	I call it experimental because I don't know if it has any problems :P	17:46
fysa	no worries	17:46
qwerty12	The only reason I made it was because I saw some other kernels but it would mean giving up the features that fanoush made in his kernel. So he gave the source patch and I applied it :)	17:46
qwerty12	Thanks :)	17:46
RST38h	what is in that kernel?	17:48
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qwerty12	let me find the page a sec, I don't even remember. Basically, features I don't use :p	17:49
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fysa	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19104	17:49
qwerty12	You got there faster than me >.<	17:50
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RST38h	=)	17:52
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RST38h	Umgh	17:53
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qwerty12	RST38h, Nice work on the Colecovision emulator. But it isn't for me as I wasn't even around then :P. My Dad still has memories of his one :p	17:58
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RST38h	qwerty: Now you will have to buy a tablet for your dad =)	18:04
qwerty12	Hehe, my dad doesn't like my one. He wanted me to get a eee pc >.<. But I liked the N800 and I also wanted to do some wifi hacking lol	18:05
RST38h	And I still have MasterSystem, GameBoy and NES to port	18:05
qwerty12	Wow, gameboy would be amazing. I currently use PyBoy to run Cokemon. While not bad, it could be improved.	18:06
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elb	is the colecovision different from the coleco intellivision?	18:15
elb	oh, it looks like the intellivision was mattel	18:16
elb	hmm	18:16
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Khertan_TheReal	?	18:33
qwerty12	?	18:33
johnx	?!	18:33
qwerty12	???	18:33
Khertan_TheReal	khertan_ (n=khertan@AAmiens-151-1-67-213.w86-192.abo.wanadoo.fr) ?	18:33
qwerty12	????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????	18:33
Khertan_TheReal	khertan_ > !shutdown	18:34
Khertan_TheReal	arg ww	18:34
johnx	two Khertans enter, one may leave!	18:34
qwerty12	I think Wanadoo still exists in the UK	18:34
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johnx	oh noes. O_o he got scared away	18:35
Khertan_TheReal	hehe	18:35
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Khertan_TheReal	ouch wanadoo.fr ... huhu	18:35
Khertan_TheReal	i m in france :)	18:35
Khertan_TheReal	but orange/wanadoo many things aren't really well separated	18:35
Navi	/bu 2	18:35
Navi	uugh	18:35
Khertan_TheReal	in fact i has always be the same ... France Telecom	18:36
Khertan_TheReal	:)	18:36
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qwerty12	Hehe :). But there was a UK one as well. I think they may have got bought out though. Wanadoo at the time bought freeserve, a UK ISP owned by Dixons in the UK :)	18:36
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Khertan_TheReal	was the same ... france telecom :)	18:37
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Khertan_TheReal	as alice was telecom italia	18:37
qwerty12	Ah :)	18:37
lopz	hi	18:38
Khertan_TheReal	t-mobile is deutsch telecom	18:38
lardman	lcuk: hmm, isn't the screen only 16bit though?	18:38
Khertan_TheReal	sfr is vivendi ... which is Universal ...	18:39
Khertan_TheReal	after this moment of history about this very small company ...	18:39
Khertan_TheReal	i ll go on ... take my train	18:39
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Khertan_TheReal	bye :)	18:39
qwerty12	Bye :)	18:39
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qwerty12	Has anyone built a kernel with CONFIG_TIMER_STATS enabled and the N800 boots fine? ATM, this is my second recompile and I think that option may be causing my N800 not to boot.	18:55
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hrw	qwerty12: powertop?	18:56
qwerty12	hrw, yes	18:56
hrw	qwerty12: it booted for me but wifi did not worked	18:56
qwerty12	hrw, ah thanks. One of my other options seems to be conflicting then :/	18:57
hrw	qwerty12: enable only that then	18:57
qwerty12	hrw: I want other features too :)	18:57
hrw	;)	18:57
hrw	one step at time	18:57
qwerty12	I'm impatient :P	18:58
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qwerty12	(spelling?)	18:58
inz	qwerty, and it seems like you're getting much faster forward this way?	18:58
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qwerty12	inz, No but I'm not one for problem solving TBH. (Not that I wouldn't like to be. I just lack the brain power)	18:59
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hrw	qwerty12: impotent you meant?	19:00
qwerty12	Joke right? :p	19:00
qwerty12	I hope >.<. All my plumbing is fine afaik	19:01
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hrw	;D	19:02
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qwerty12	Hehe :D. I've taken out Timer option. I'm not so bothered about powertop, but if it worked it would be nice :)	19:03
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hrw	qwerty12: wat you want to add to kernel?	19:05
qwerty12	hrw, Nothing much. I've already added "(fixed rotation, 48Hz Faster MMC, extended brightness & crypto api) , plus the USB DMA & Powercheck disabled, LUKS, IPv6 and the case copy symbol. Be careful when using this one." and I want to add something else, I'll keep it a surprise until (if) it works ;P	19:06
qwerty12	Yep, timer option was causing my N800 not to boot. Probably doesn't get on with the framebuffer enabled.	19:07
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qwerty12	Does anyone else's kernels get compiled with no "sw-release"? It makes the about panel say <unknown>. It's odd because the kernel I compiled this morning had the version in and the one I compiled just now with EXACTLY the same settings as the one in the morning has no version info in it :(	19:10
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qwerty12	Ok, sorry to be annoying but is there any way to fix modprobe on this device? A few scripts I've seen use modprobe over insmod :/ and I can't be bothered to replace modprobe strings :P	19:14
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fysa	maybe something like.. a script with: insmod `which "$1"`	19:23
fysa	wait, that wouldn't work.	19:23
qwerty12	fysa, Thanks but it doesn't matter. I couldn't get this to work when using insmod :(	19:24
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qwerty12	Our camera sucks knob. Why? (Not because of the crappy picture quality btw)	19:29
qwerty12	http://pastebin.ca/994694	19:29
qwerty12	WTF IS UWVY?	19:30
qwerty12	s/UWVY/UYVY	19:30
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GeneralAntilles	This: http://www.fourcc.org/yuv.php#UYVY	19:31
qwerty12	Most popular? :(. Now I'm upset.	19:32
qwerty12	Arg, I don't know anything about video's. I thought this would be a simple recompile (which it was) but stupid OMAP webcam :(	19:34
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qwerty12	All I wanted was video in flash.	19:34
qwerty12	s/I don't know anything about video's/I don't know anything about video systems	19:34
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Atarii	qwerty12, would it be possible to get rotation in the kernel in 2008he?	19:38
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qwerty12	Atarii, probably. I'm not sure what kernel 770 uses and also I wouldn't be able to backport the code. More fanoush's area.	19:39
Atarii	2.6.16.27-omap1 kernel i think	19:40
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qwerty12	Ahh, ok. If I have time, I will try and find the source of that kernel. But I can only do a quick "port" of the rotation code. May not work.	19:41
Atarii	awesome! thanks and i look forward to any progress	19:43
qwerty12	Np, but I must note I probably won't be able to do it (not from lack of trying but from lack of knowledge) and I'm not a developer. Plus I've never compiled 770 kernel before :). jott may be a good person to ask for info (he did the port of the mamona code to maemo)	19:44
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Atarii	yea ive spoke to jott	19:46
qwerty12	fook, this flash webcam code is going to need some sorting.	19:49
qwerty12	BTW: Out of question, would anyone be interested if I did get camera to work in flash?	19:49
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qwerty12	Interesting. The camera is RGBP on boot but Internet call program sets it to UYVY	19:54
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johnx	Atarii, I'm not sure if the 770's LCD controller has rotation support. The reason it happened so quickly with the n8x0 is that the epson LCD controller does all the work	19:59
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dpap	Where can i find the list with all maemo phones?	20:07
pancake	phones?	20:07
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pancake	here: n770, n800, n810	20:07
qwerty12	Any developers around?	20:07
\|\|cw	there are no maemo "phones"	20:08
smackpotato	i think the wiki but thats a guess	20:08
dpap	mobiles what ever	20:08
pancake	internet tablets	20:08
pancake	or enhanced pdas	20:08
pancake	but not phones or mobiles	20:08
pancake	no gsm on them	20:08
dpap	yes	20:08
dpap	but where?	20:08
pancake	here: n770, n800, n810	20:08
\|\|cw	tablets, handhelds maybe... they aren't very good at being a PDA so "enhanced" wouldn't work	20:09
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smackpotato	i think he wants to pair with bluetooth	20:09
\|\|cw	dpap: there's no "list" because there are only 3, as pancake has said	20:09
dpap	those 3 tablets has got the latest maemo software?	20:10
smackpotato	http://maemo.org/community/wiki/bluetoothdun/	20:10
\|\|cw	there's an outdated one, one with 2 SD slots for lots of storage, and one with a keyboard and gps	20:10
lcuk	there are technically 4, the new 810 wimax	20:11
\|\|cw	dpap: 770 won't run "the latest" officially, there is an endition that will install, but it's not really stable	20:11
dpap	can i have maemo 4 on n800?	20:12
qwerty12	Ok, from this snippet of code: http://pastebin.ca/994754 , can anyone tell me the format of the .flashcamrc file please?	20:12
GeneralAntilles	dpap, maemo 4 is the development platform	20:12
GeneralAntilles	You can have OS2008 on an N800.	20:13
lcuk	dpap, if you mean OS2008 then yes sure. nokia released the new one and its fully compatible	20:13
lcuk	os2008 is the hi GeneralAntilles	20:13
lcuk	offs - the other crap	20:13
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GeneralAntilles	Hi, lcuk. :)	20:13
dpap	Is n800 upgradeable????	20:14
lcuk	yes	20:14
\|\|cw	dpap: the OS is, ye	20:14
lcuk	the os2007 that comes included on the n800 can be fully upgraded to os2008	20:14
lcuk	(reflashes actually)	20:14
GeneralAntilles	\|\|cw, what, you can install the latest Nvidia Geforce card? :P	20:14
GeneralAntilles	s/can/can't/	20:14
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: \|\|cw, what, you can't install the latest Nvidia Geforce card? :P	20:14
lcuk	why not, im sure theres some PCI express port somewhere on the n8x0 but we dont have drivers for it	20:15
\|\|cw	well, or add ram, or internal storage, or add an internal gps...	20:15
* lcuk has an internal gps in his n810		20:15
qwerty12	If only we could, maybe we'd get opengl	20:15
johnx	lcuk, pretty sure there's not even a PCI bus	20:15
GeneralAntilles	Somehow I doubt it, lcuk. :P	20:15
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GeneralAntilles	You can actually see all the buses we have on TI's website. :D	20:16
lcuk	johnx, there is, its driver will be installed for Duke Nukem Forever Maemo edition	20:16
johnx	lcuk, just repeat after me "Embedded systems are weeeeird."	20:16
\|\|cw	could be a pcicma interface	20:16
GeneralAntilles	There isn't, \|\|cw. ;)	20:16
qwerty12	I don't see any buses here: http://www.trapmuzik.com/	20:16
johnx	\|\|cw, keep guessing. :)	20:16
\|\|cw	but not likely cardbus	20:16
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\|\|cw	extra gpio's?	20:16
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johnx	probably plenty, especially if you rip out something useless (like the camera)	20:17
smackpotato	you can check out the omap chip on ti site	20:17
\|\|cw	i bet there's some freak out there that could make a pcmcia vga card work via some gio's	20:17
\|\|cw	gpio's	20:17
lcuk	dont need gpio - we have full 3d hardware. we can RENDER anything *	20:17
lcuk	*ymmv	20:17
\|\|cw	up to 640x480	20:17
GeneralAntilles	Up to and including Halo 3, lcuk?	20:18
\|\|cw	if I understand correctly	20:18
X-Fade_	There was this guy that had removed the FM radio chip in the N800 and used those..	20:18
johnx	O_o	20:18
lcuk	and - can you seriously see an individual pixel at 1/225inch?	20:18
lcuk	especially in a 3d game?	20:18
lcuk	3d 640*480 is NOT a reason to hold back on the driver	20:18
X-Fade_	I can't find the link to the page anymore, but that was a nice hardware hack :)	20:18
\|\|cw	no, but the bandwidth of the lcd is	20:19
lcuk	but 640*480 at 33fps is ENTIRELY doable	20:19
lcuk	i do it now from the cpu	20:19
lcuk	800*480 is also doable at 25fps	20:19
NOCmadman	can default programs such as pdf reader, and the file manager be removed to clean up space ?	20:19
lcuk	think outside the box and turn to yuv :)	20:19
GeneralAntilles	NOCmadman, you could, but it'll only save you a couple of MB	20:20
GeneralAntilles	Remove the ~40MB of PDFs and media that comes bundled instead.	20:20
lcuk	if you delete the file manager does it delete all the files it manages?	20:20
johnx	most of the stuff taking up space is used by everything	20:20
johnx	lcuk, yes, but only on your tablet	20:20
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lcuk	phew, i thought he would wipe out everyones	20:20
fysa	compiz would be great. I would love a mini 3D desktop. ;)	20:21
fysa	the best part would be that zooming would be free.	20:22
fysa	and smooth.	20:22
johnx	probably not on an omap2...	20:23
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lcuk	the thing about this resolution hang up: the iphone manages to have an amazing interface at a MUCH lower resolution to us - if we could use a lowres highly fancy front end and only switch to highres slower updating when required we would gain a lot of wow factor	20:23
johnx	they also have a faster processor and better (let alone working) 3D hardware	20:23
johnx	and a lot more man-hours of dev time	20:23
fysa	and corporate interest	20:24
GeneralAntilles	and a much smaller screen, lcuk.	20:24
\|\|cw	and rabid fanbois	20:24
johnx	and the Jobs hype-machine	20:24
lcuk	johnx, i thought they had identical 3d hardware to us (except for the drivers)	20:24
GeneralAntilles	No	20:24
GeneralAntilles	Their hardware is pretty radically different from ours.	20:24
* lcuk will be demonstrating something at linuxtag which will put money where my mouth is		20:24
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johnx	I look forward to it :D	20:25
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lcuk	so do i	20:25
johnx	though I won't be there in person :/	20:25
X-Fade_	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24TXpqa9jG0 OpenGL ES 2.0 shader effects on OMAP3	20:25
lcuk	i love the 800*480 screen, but if it is seriously limited at that resolution the only possible thing to do with hardware is to allow resolution independence, let the user choose	20:25
X-Fade_	Can I have that please ;)	20:25
fysa	I think it's more similar than not?	20:26
johnx	X-Fade_, I don't think anyone is disputing what the OMAP3 is capable of :)	20:26
fysa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series_4_.28MBX.29	20:26
lcuk	X-Fade_, you are attending ltag arent u	20:26
NOCmadman	already removed pdf's, moves, mp3's was just trying to clean up stuff i have replaced by other programs	20:26
fysa	they are both PowerVR MBX?	20:26
* GeneralAntilles needs N900 now. . . .		20:26
johnx	X-Fade_, that looks like the Valve Source demo...	20:26
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smackpotato	when do we get omap3	20:27
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully this fall.	20:27
lcuk	never on this device	20:27
johnx	Every time someone asks it gets pushed back a month :)	20:27
* smackpotato gets out the soldering iron		20:28
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fysa	http://airlied.livejournal.com/39506.html	20:30
fysa	nm	20:30
johnx	yeah, I keep really picking the winners in terms of slow video in ARM Linux devices	20:31
johnx	Zaurus C1000 then N800...	20:32
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Dantas	Its ARM?	20:33
Dantas	on maemo's devices?	20:34
GeneralAntilles	armel	20:34
GeneralAntilles	specifically	20:34
johnx	the Nokia 770, N800, and N810 all have ARM CPUs	20:34
johnx	GeneralAntilles, hate to say it but "armel" isn't really a hardware archictecture, it stands for ARM w/ EABI (little endian)	20:35
GeneralAntilles	Yes, I know.	20:35
johnx	at least as Debian uses it	20:35
GeneralAntilles	But it might be relevant to his question. :P	20:35
johnx	fair enough. :)	20:35
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GeneralAntilles	Ugh	20:35
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GeneralAntilles	meanwhile fucked up the maemo article again.	20:36
GeneralAntilles	What a dumbass	20:36
johnx	just let him 0wn it for a week until he forgets about it	20:36
johnx	you can only win by not playing	20:36
fysa	GA is seeping with wonderful knowledge that must envelope and consume all.	20:36
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Jaffa	re	20:56
GeneralAntilles	Howdy, Jaffa.	20:56
* Jaffa 's BT headphones have had one of their rubber buds fallen off		20:57
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jott	haha man, this meanwhile is so pathetic.	21:04
qwerty12_N800	+1	21:04
qwerty12_N800	GeneralAntilles: Any removing plans?	21:05
Navi	omg	21:06
jott	i would pledge for a complaint	21:06
Navi	my n800 froze	21:06
GeneralAntilles	Somebody else can fight it.	21:06
Navi	duz any1 have a virus checker?	21:06
Navi	it might be a virus	21:06
jott	i think i'll write a virus scanner :)	21:06
johnx	Navi, I think Darius was working on one :D	21:06
Navi	i need 2 remove it	21:06
jott	(with a 0 bytes signature file)	21:06
jott	or just a messagebox "No virus found"	21:07
Navi	n800 is too unsecure. I dun kno how 2 use iptables	21:07
jott	maybe he feels more secure then ;)	21:07
Navi	so duz any1 haev another firewalll i can use?	21:07
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fysa	I use ZoneAlarm on my N800.	21:07
Navi	Haha, all of those spelling mistakes are from me trying to type 100WPM	21:07
johnx	yeah "zonealarm: you know it's working cause now your virus scanner can't download new signatures..."	21:08
GeneralAntilles	Ha	21:08
Navi	lol	21:08
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jott	we could also just build a clamav deb	21:09
Navi	I was going to do it, but I'm much too lazy.	21:09
johnx	that would actually have some marginal usefulness at least	21:09
Navi	clamav is even worthless on the desktop	21:10
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fysa	ZoneAlarm: Because you trust the State of Israel's national intelligence agency to protect your sensitive data.	21:10
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GeneralAntilles	I love the Qtopia section.	21:11
GeneralAntilles	Because wikipedia is the perfect place for rumor mongering.	21:11
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Navi	Can I set string object equal to a c-style string?	21:12
johnx	ahaha...my screensaver came on in N800/Debian and I thought my LCD controller had just given up the ghost	21:12
Mikho	Is there a difference between the terms Maemo and Internet Tablet OS?	21:12
Navi	like, tehstring = cstring	21:12
Navi	Ahh, ghost	21:12
qwerty12_N800	"Scratchbox-compatible rootstraps are available for both x86 and ARMEL, so the majority of development and debugging takes place on x86, with final packaging being for ARMEL." 5 star fucking idiot.	21:12
* Navi runs		21:12
GeneralAntilles	Mikho, maemo is the development platform, Internet Tablet OS is the OS shipped with the 770, N800, N810 and N810W	21:12
qwerty12_N800	1. source! 2. missing logic (ie explain why with rootstraps available for both cpus, x86 is used until the late stages) 3. does the term rootstrap really add enough meaning to counter for its obscurity? this is a general encyclopedia, and articles should be written appropriately 4. ditto "final packaging"	21:13
Mikho	okay	21:13
GeneralAntilles	Hehe, I don't disagree that the SDK section sucks.	21:13
GeneralAntilles	But rather than blabbering about it on the talk page, I wish he would do something useful and fix it.	21:13
jott	as if he knew anything about the sdk or even linux/unix in general	21:14
johnx	a rootstrap (after much pain on my part learning this) is just another word for chroot	21:14
qwerty12_N800	Definitely but we know he has a problem with adding to articles.	21:14
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully brontide jumps in there again	21:14
jott	and citing himself in a forum thread ...	21:14
GeneralAntilles	he seems to have the will and energy to fight idiocy.	21:14
GeneralAntilles	jott, yeah, impressive isn't it?	21:15
Navi	I demand the purge of all stupid people	21:15
Navi	starting with Navi	21:15
Navi	I hate his guts	21:15
qwerty12_N800	Really?	21:15
johnx	reminds me of a penny arcade strip "But if we kill anyone who's stupid or ugly we'll never make it out of the mall!"	21:16
Navi	Haha	21:16
qwerty12_N800	lol	21:16
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Navi	I need to catch up on penny arcade strips	21:16
johnx	that's a real old one	21:16
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GeneralAntilles	Dead Rising was a fun one.	21:20
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Navi	Dead Rising is a funny game	21:20
Navi	So uh, can anyone answer that question? I don't want to resort to the #c++ guys	21:21
Navi	They're evil and trolly >_>	21:22
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Navi	and raped me when I was five years old	21:22
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Navi	s/raped/raeped/	21:22
infobot	Navi meant: and raeped me when I was five years old	21:22
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elb	Navi: you can do thestring = string(cstring), if not	21:26
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elb	or string thestring(cstring)	21:26
Navi	kk, thanks :D	21:26
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elb	(I suspect there's an assignment operator, but it's been a long time since I was forced to stoop to C++)	21:29
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nomis	Navi: it is not the C++ guys that is evil and trolly, it is C++.	21:32
* mgedmin wonders why Navi doesn't just try it out and see		21:33
* mgedmin was at one point honestly convinced C++ was a great programming language		21:33
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jott	it's really what you make out of it.	21:34
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nomis	mgedmin: yay for the recklessness of the youth! :)	21:34
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nomis	jott: yeah, that is exactly the problem. C++ gives you lots of rope to hang yourself with. And everyone picks different ropes.	21:35
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RST38h	Actually, there is a limited set of ropes	21:35
jott	nomis: just pick the right ones and use qt :>	21:36
mgedmin	that's not the problem; the problem is that it requires you to wave your own ladder out of the rope instead of giving you an elevator	21:36
mgedmin	s/wave/weave/	21:36
infobot	mgedmin meant: that's not the problem; the problem is that it requires you to weave your own ladder out of the rope instead of giving you an elevator	21:36
mgedmin	thank you very much, infobot	21:36
nomis	RST38h: I guess it is countable finite.	21:36
RST38h	anyway, what was the initial question/	21:36
nomis	infinite.	21:36
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Navi	elb, what do you work with nowadays, python? Ruby on Rails?	21:38
elb	whatever I choose	21:38
Navi	mmk	21:38
elb	80% of what I do is in either C or Ruby (no rails)	21:38
elb	the other 20% is perl, python, tcl, whatever some specific project uses	21:38
Navi	The RoR community is full of jerks :(	21:38
elb	well, if you discount Make and bourne ... those are a good 50% of my total output ;-)	21:39
nomis	RST38h: I admittedly did not see it, I guess something like "How do I create a string object from a const char array" or "how do I assign a const char array to a string" or whatever. Stuff that should be easy but is full of traps.	21:39
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jott	well most languages are full of traps if you are not used to them.	21:40
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nomis	jott: true. C++ is my special favourite though.	21:41
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* Navi likes ropes		21:42
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elb	C++ is more full of traps than most	21:47
elb	I highly recommend Stroustrup's "Design and Evolution of The C++ Programming Language" (or something like that)	21:48
elb	it's ... instructive	21:48
jott	well it really depends on what parts you consider - stl/boost for example or with the great abstractions qt.	21:48
* Navi needs ebook copies		21:48
* nomis actually recommends the C++ FQA (sic!): http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/		21:48
Navi	If it doesn't fit in my pocket, it's likely that I'm not going to read it	21:48
nomis	it definitely is biased but it has a lots of good points on why C++ is bad.	21:49
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jott	it's like "the language has some subsets that contain flaws but you are fine not using them - still i use them as my main argument"	21:50
jott	(or atleast knowing the flaws)	21:50
elb	the thing about C++ is that you can't just ignore many parts of it	21:51
elb	people love to say you can, but mostly they dont' know enough of the language to know why it's dangerous	21:51
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nomis	C++ is "oh, lets do OO in C and trick the C programmers into thinking it is the same language and they would gain from their prior knowledge. Then we reuse all their operators with totally different semantics!"	21:51
elb	and as long as you don't hit the corner cases for the parts you don't understand, you're mostly OK	21:51
elb	but then when it explodes, figuring out why takes a true guru	21:51
nomis	"lets use the shift operator for iostreams. That is clever!"	21:51
fysa	it takes a guru meditation.	21:52
lcuk	SOFTWARE FAILURE. PRESS LEFT MOUSE BUTTON TO CONTINUE	21:52
elb	while the choice of operator for iostreams is a little lame, typed output is a nice idea	21:52
nomis	and "std::cout << std::hex << std::setfill('0') << std::setw(8) << x << std::dec << std::endl;" is so much easier than "printf("0x%08xn", x)"	21:52
elb	I don't think iostreams got it right, but still	21:52
* nomis loves how input with iostreams leads to endless loops on CTRL-D.		21:53
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jott	nomis: this is just some cosmetic argument and it's not even valid in my eyes.	21:54
nomis	jott: why?	21:54
nomis	(cosmetics is btw. IMHO important. Not that C would be much better in that regard)	21:55
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keesj	ruby give love, try to beat that :p	21:56
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jott	nomis: 1) you can use printf in c++ or some other function for special purposes. 2) you could also just stream some complex objects as a counter example and then the printf would look ugly	21:56
johnx	gimp on the N800 is disturbingly usable O_o	21:56
nomis	jott: yeah, if your complex has exactly one desired output. Typically this is not true though.	21:57
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jott	printf("%s",my_object_to_string(OBJECT_CAST(object))); std::out << object;	21:57
nomis	e.g. one human readable and one serialized form of your complex object.	21:57
nomis	jott: is the latter the serialized form that gets sent to the network or the form that gets printed to the terminal?	21:58
jott	well fwiw, std::out << object.toString();	21:59
nomis	jott: ok, but then we're at the same level as the printf again: printf ("%s", object.toString());	21:59
nomis	oh wait, we probably need object.toString().c_str()	22:00
jott	see it's a really pointless discussion	22:00
nomis	:)	22:01
RST38h	nomis: The answer is "string objects are evil"	22:01
RST38h	Don't use them	22:01
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nomis	the fun really starts when you try to figure out why the C++ compilers have to be so dog slow. It is a problem inherent to the language.	22:02
nomis	(it is not context free)	22:02
RST38h	C++ compilers are not slow	22:02
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nomis	RST38h: compared to C compilers? They are. By a huge difference.	22:03
RST38h	If you mean that you can write slower code using C++, it is true, but why blame the compiler?	22:03
nomis	RST38h: I mean the actual act of compiling. Not the resulting binary.	22:03
RST38h	GCC works at the same speed for me	22:03
RST38h	C or C++	22:03
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nomis	RST38h: mhm. Whenever I have to compile (even small) C++ programs it feels like ages. Ok, granted, I usually run my Laptop at 600MHz, but pure C programs are compiled in a snap.	22:05
RST38h	Are you using templates?	22:06
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elb	g++ is absolutely slower than C++, with or without templates	22:06
RST38h	trantor: {976} C++	22:06
RST38h	C++: Command not found.	22:06
RST38h	What is "C++" ?	22:06
elb	err, g++ is absolutely slower than gcc	22:06
elb	typo	22:06
RST38h	Both will compile C++ code though	22:07
nomis	RST38h: well, not intentionally, but it is hard to avoid with the standard libraries.	22:07
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RST38h	nomis: So you are using STL?	22:07
nomis	RST38h: I guess that most of the programs I compile do use STL, yes.	22:07
elb	a C "hello world" takes about 1.5x as long to compile in g++ as gcc, with hot caches	22:07
RST38h	nomis: Here is the answer to your question then	22:07
RST38h	nomis: Do not use STL. And your C++ compiler will run like a cheeta	22:08
nomis	RST38h: that is not the only problem.	22:08
RST38h	nomis: Believe me, that IS the only problem ;)	22:08
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elb	did you not read what I just wrote?	22:08
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elb	hello world takes 1.5x as long with C++, and it's a trivial example	22:09
nomis	RST38h: as I said earlier: C++ is not context free, that means the compiler has to try a lot of different approaches for some statements to compile them properly.	22:09
RST38h	elb: takes same time for me	22:09
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elb	RST38h: then you're not using the same g++ I am	22:09
RST38h	nomis: could ou give an example	22:09
elb	(4.1.3)	22:09
RST38h	elb: maybe	22:10
elb	using <iostream> and std::cout instead of <stdio.h> and printf takes the c++ example to four times slower	22:10
nomis	RST38h: a line like "AA BB(CC);" is impossible to parse without knowing what AA, BB and CC actually are	22:10
RST38h	3.4.2 here	22:10
elb	it's a more complicated language, there's no getting around that	22:10
elb	and to claim that doesn't affect the compiler is disingenuous	22:10
RST38h	elb: do not use iostream and srtd:out	22:11
nomis	RST38h: (is it an function prototype or a object instanciation?)	22:11
elb	yes, polymorphism slows the compiler down a lot	22:11
nomis	that is not even a problem with polymorphy. It is a problem of a bad grammar.	22:11
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elb	yeah, I misparsed your statement	22:12
elb	but polymorphism also does so :-)	22:12
elb	because there may be more than one applicable function to a given context, and one of them is "more correct" than another	22:12
elb	(due to, e.g., possible implicit casts)	22:12
nomis	true.	22:12
elb	or simply finding the possible casts, for that matter	22:12
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elb	so ... I guess if you don't know how C++ works, and you don't time an actual C++ compiler, you can claim it compiles just as fast ;-)	22:13
RST38h	nomis: and how does this slow things down?	22:14
nomis	RST38h: the compiler has to look up AA, BB and CC among lots of different language elements (Types, currently defined variables/objects etc.)	22:16
RST38h	elb: Close but not exactly like that	22:16
nomis	RST38h: A C compiler can look up CC in the types database and if it is not in there --> Bang! it gives an error.	22:16
RST38h	elb: I am aware of how C++ works, so I use only those features of C++ that I really need and that do not slow me down	22:16
RST38h	nomis: But C++ compiler also makes a database like that	22:17
RST38h	It makes a tree basically	22:17
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nomis	RST38h: A C++ compier might look in the type database, not find it there, then look it up among the currently defined variables.	22:17
elb	RST38h: oh, so I assume you never use polymorphism, virtual functions, or inheritance?	22:17
flo_lap	re	22:17
elb	because all three of those slow the compiler down	22:17
RST38h	It should always be in the type database, just in several different places in a tree	22:18
nomis	it has to do some more operations until it finally can figure out if that statement is correct or not.	22:18
RST38h	elb: I use these every now and then	22:18
nomis	RST38h: no!	22:18
RST38h	elb: But sparingly	22:18
RST38h	it does have to do a few more operations but not by much	22:18
nomis	RST38h: it might be an defined object, which would make it a constructor invocation.	22:18
elb	I just use C, and C++ doesn't slow me down at all ;-)	22:18
elb	if I want objects, I jump to something at a higher level	22:19
elb	(typically ruby)	22:19
elb	although it has its own unfortunate interactions	22:19
RST38h	nomis: So, it will check another tree, and?	22:20
nomis	RST38h: the compiler has to try different approaches of compiling said statement before it can determine if a statement is correct or not. That slows it down drastically. It might even have to try the other approaches if it found a valid one.	22:20
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RST38h	nomis: Do you know how expensive is looking up an item in a tree?	22:21
RST38h	How about a hash?	22:21
nomis	RST38h: I know that two lookups in two trees are twice as expensive as one lookup in one tree.	22:21
RST38h	And one disk access is 100 times as expensive :)	22:22
elb	in fact, in some cases it has to look up every possible interpretation	22:22
elb	because what is a conflict in one context may be legal in another	22:22
elb	and yes, that's an excellent point -- C++ does make far more disk accesses	22:22
nomis	RST38h: please read up a bit about why everything more complicated than a LALR(1) grammar is basically insanely hard to parse. Context sensitive Grammars are way more complicated than LALR.	22:23
elb	as its base set of definitions and standard components is rather larger	22:23
RST38h	"rather larger" is how much?	22:23
nomis	RST38h: by "context sensitive" I don't mean some vague feeling, I mean hard CS concepts.	22:23
elb	to be fair, C isn't LALR(1) either	22:24
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RST38h	As far as I know, both are LALR(1)	22:25
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RST38h	let me verify	22:25
nomis	elb: eh, why?	22:25
elb	I don't remember	22:25
nomis	elb: because of the preprocessor?	22:25
elb	but we definitely went over this in one of my undergrad courses oh-so-long-ago	22:26
RST38h	Google says C++ is LALR(1)	22:26
elb	a LALR(1) parser can read C++ syntax at some level, but it may not be compilable without farther checks	22:26
elb	because syntax and semantics get confused	22:27
elb	the very example nomis gave above is not LALR(1) in just three tokens	22:27
RST38h	ok, I'll buy that	22:27
RST38h	I won't buy "c++ compiler slower than c" part though	22:27
nomis	RST38h: take the example above: you have to know (it is not immediately obvious from the grammar) if CC is a type or an object before you're able to parse the statement (into two totally different things)	22:28
RST38h	Don't you goddamn STL and those bloody iostreams that are only good for textbook examples	22:28
RST38h	Use printf() as all normal people do, and implement your own data structures.	22:28
elb	oh, and yes -- templates are completely not lalr(1)	22:29
RST38h	screw templates together with STL	22:29
elb	but we've already put those out of scope	22:29
nomis	elb: well, yeah. But we seem to agree anyway that templates are bad :)	22:29
elb	templates as decorations are interesting	22:29
elb	but ... not worth using C++ :-)	22:29
RST38h	C++ gives you data and function encapsulation	22:29
RST38h	that is what it is worth using for	22:30
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nomis	RST38h: weeell, we now could start arguing if this is not just syntactic sugar and if the method as used by glib enables you to do this as well.	22:30
RST38h	the rest (templates, exceptions, RTTI, STL, other shit) isn't of much use	22:30
RST38h	nomis: You know better than me that the method used by glib is an abomination	22:31
RST38h	Yes, it works. No, it is not pretty and damn hard to maintain	22:31
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nomis	RST38h: I disagree.	22:31
nomis	RST38h: it is not pretty, true, but it gives you tools that C++ does not give you.	22:32
RST38h	no type checking whatsoever	22:32
nomis	RST38h: huh?	22:32
RST38h	not clear what to do with pointers you are getting as results	22:32
RST38h	do you free() them? do you g_free() them? do you unreference-count them?	22:32
nomis	RST38h: all the Type-Casting macros do type checking if you don't optimize it away.	22:33
RST38h	do you g_free_xxx_object() them?	22:33
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RST38h	I am probably optimizing them away	22:33
RST38h	Otherwise it would run slow, wouldn't it? :)	22:33
nomis	RST38h: the key is to read the stuff that glib spits out at runtime and take the warnings seriously.	22:33
RST38h	nomis: thanks, but I will take comile-time checks.	22:33
RST38h	c++ has them	22:34
nomis	RST38h: C++ has no dynamic type system though.	22:34
nomis	Which sucks badly sometimes.	22:34
Mikho	what's wrong with STL?	22:34
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* nomis has to run, sorry.		22:35
RST38h	Mikho: slow to compile, difficult to debug, full of cruft	22:35
RST38h	And you need a BOOK to use it	22:35
RST38h	Wherever you need a book to use something, it is probably not worth using	22:36
Mikho	Actually I wish I had a book	22:36
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Mikho	The reason I'm using it, is because I don't want to program every container type myself	22:37
Mikho	are there really any good alternatives?	22:37
elb	better languages ;-)	22:38
* elb passes out the free Objective C		22:39
flo_lap	re	22:39
flo_lap	hehe	22:39
Mikho	better languages with C compability?	22:40
flo_lap	Mikho: C ;)	22:40
Navi	Lol	22:40
Mikho	?	22:40
pupnik_	is there OpenStep for the tablets? :P	22:43
flo_lap	In fact with the right tools C is quite nice - of course there are better languages, but this does not include C++	22:43
flo_lap	pupnik_: yes	22:43
Mikho	I don't like the type casting macros either	22:44
pupnik_	you kidding flo_lap? url?	22:44
Mikho	Type-checking runtime is not as good as type-checking compile-time	22:44
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flo_lap	pupnik_: well... almost: http://www.quantum-step.com/wiki.php?page=Maemo-Edition&referer=About	22:47
RST38h	Mikho: What is wrong with programming your own data structures?	22:48
RST38h	Only takes a few minutes after a while	22:48
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jott	lol @ anonymous changes to the maemo wikipedia page	23:41
GeneralAntilles	This cracked me up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:TE	23:42
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GeneralAntilles	Hahaha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo#Possible_use_of_ITOS_in_phones	23:48
GeneralAntilles	That's beautiful	23:49
GeneralAntilles	maemo now has blood on its hands.	23:49
pupnik	GeneralAntilles: do you know if it's possible for a wlan driver to alert (via sound or something) when it gets DEAUTH'd?	23:50
jott	hehe yeah. have you seen the guerillia changes to the security section? ;)	23:50
KotCzarny	pupnik: dbus ?	23:50
KotCzarny	i mean listen for dbus message?	23:50
pupnik	ah	23:50
jott	ah already reverted	23:51
pupnik	i don't have time to try. But seems like in general, it'd be a useful thing for linuxy wlan drivers/clients to do.	23:51
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KotCzarny	could be annoying	23:51
KotCzarny	:)	23:51
Cptnodegard	anyone know wtf is the difference between rss feed and rss channel?	23:52
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KotCzarny	there can be multiple feed of one in other?	23:52
KotCzarny	or other way round	23:52
KotCzarny	:)	23:52
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Cptnodegard	uuuh	23:53
Cptnodegard	seems like what i was after then	23:53
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GeneralAntilles	Haha, jott, that's awesome.	23:55
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GeneralAntilles	"e.g. by installing a keylogger to steal email and pornography passwords."	23:55
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GeneralAntilles	"meaning that a hostile application could easily seize ultimate climate control over a machine where this password has not been changed and start killing virtual kittens."	23:56
KotCzarny	climate control?	23:56
GeneralAntilles	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maemo&oldid=207689252	23:56
KotCzarny	trollish	23:56

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