IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2007-10-06

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pupnik  Quake engine with unlimited vield-of-vision00:18
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t_s_ohmm, 360 vision00:23
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Fatalcool, it's the guy who did Amiga E, I used to code utils in that back when my amiga was still working :D00:27
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|Rany particular reasons why doing "apt-get install bash" would tell me that packages will be REMOVED and the list is a 100 packages long (basically everything useful i have :P)01:12
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* pupnik 's mind is completely blown by 'descent in 4kb'01:13
pupnikThe Omniscent 4K Intro is a demo (using only 4K bytes of disc space) that contains a complete 6DOF engine ala descent from Dirk Kueppers ( )
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pupnikhappened to me too |R01:14
|Rfound a way around it? get the package and --force it? ;)01:14
Atariidescent in 4kb?01:15
pupnikyeah with graphics01:15
|Rhehe that demo is slick :)01:15
|Rsaw it a while back, don't remember when/why...01:15
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pupnikwell you could install maybe with dpkg -i01:16
pupnikthen apt wouldn't remove anything01:16
pupnikbut i'd check first with dpkg-deb -X  to see what it will overwrite first01:17
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|Rgood idea.. :)01:17
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Atariiwish i had media centre, MCEGuru looks sweet01:19
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|Rpupnik : is removing the /bin/sh and /bin/bash links to busybox isn't going to screw up things? i've read that people changed their shell on the ITT forum and couldn't boot..? :)01:23
|R(just don't want to reinstall for 4h haha ;)01:23
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pupnik<Harekiet> that remains the best :)01:23
pupnikthis is not possible01:23
pupniki do not believe i am seeing this01:24
|Rhaha :)01:24
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pupnik012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 <- that times 5 is how many bytes are in that program01:29
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Atariiman thats some hardcore time outs03:02
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Atariianyone here/03:04
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flip^very vaguely, considering its 1am ;)03:05
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flip^people seem to be struggling to stay alive tonight03:05
Atariido u know wat package i need to get ifconfig/iwconfig on maemo?03:06
Atariior everyone is out as its a friday nite...03:06
flip^ifconfig is there from the outset, isn't it?03:06
Atariimaybe i need to use the absolute path to it03:06
flip^one mo03:07
flip^/sbin/ifconfig i believe03:07
Atariiawesome thanks03:08
flip^sudo gainroot; cd /; find | grep ifconfig03:08
flip^magic :)03:08
flip^and watch as it spasms over loads if io errors on mmc1 :(03:09
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zoranhm, no priv messages on freenode08:20
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ifgood morning everyone, can I get little help about installing sb2 ?09:33
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sujanHi all11:58
_Monkeybonjour, pupnik11:58
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* pupnik ponders about how to bring up user dialogue during package install12:00
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kpelhi guys12:04
pupnikthanks to Dawnmist for finding how to activate exec on mmc/sd12:05
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kpelpupnik, do u have a url?12:06
pupnik and the guys who wrote the docs12:06
kpelthe devel docs are great. i was looking at them yesterday.12:07
pupnikkpel see /usr/sbin/mmc-mount12:08
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czrdoes the dhcp-client communicate with dbus on N800?12:17
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kpelpupnik, thanks12:43
kpelhi sujan12:43
sujani am facing a problem kpel12:43
sujanI have build a debian package but when i try to install it on N800 , it shows depends on hildon-fmmm,dev-sqlite12:44
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sujancan you please give me a solution?12:45
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kpelsujan, no idea. i am really new to the maemo platform :\12:51
sujanIts ok, kpel12:52
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czrmornin koen12:56
koenhey czr12:57
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czranyone have a minimal terminfo for just xterm?12:59
pupnik_sujan: if the package really doesn't need those, edit the debian/control file to remove those dependencies, then re build12:59
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sujanpackage need those13:00
pupnikthen you need to install them13:00
sujanbecause I have used sqlite313:00
sujanmanually in N800?13:00
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pupnikif the packages upon which your app depends are not in your repositories, then yes manually13:02
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sujanIs there any way that it will install dependencies automatically during installation of my package?13:02
pupnikyes you can make your own ftp repository, or submit dependencies to an official repository13:04
sujanbecause I am going to deliver it to somebody, who does not know how to install sqlite or hildon-fmmm13:04
pupnikmaybe that could help13:04
pupnikanother option would be to add the libraries to your package13:05
sujanya, adding libraries is better, i think13:06
sujanCan you help me, how can I do that13:06
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sujani have used     dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot   command to make package13:08
sujanpupnik: Ok Pupnik, thanks for your help13:17
pupniklook in the debian/rules directory13:19
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opygood morning (~ugt)14:18
opyPupnik : are you here!!14:18
opyPupnik : I got error when   "fakeroot apt-get install maemo-explicit" in armel . Would you like to give me any solution?14:23
opydor maemo 2.214:23
pupniklast time i asked you a questino about this you did not answer me14:23
pupnikor maybe i missed your answer14:24
pupnikwhat is maemo-explicit?14:24
czrpupnik, pseudopackage pulling the closed source binaries from nokia14:25
czrwhat has replaced kdbusd?14:25
pupnikah interesting14:25
czrI see that it's not on either N800 nor in 3.2 sdk.14:25
pupnikwhat happens whtn you apt-cache search maemo-explicit?14:25
opyoh sorry.14:26
zuhczr: Maybe ke-recv?14:27
zuhThough I'm not sure what kdbusd does...14:27
czrit was a light-weight wrapper for kernel -> object/uevents -> dbus14:28
opyit is package installation command from repository for maemo 3.114:28
czr(to system dbus)14:28
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czrzuh, I can only see ke-recv-l10n-engb and ke-recv-l10n-mr1 packages in the sdk, am I looking in the right place?14:28
czr(sdk = apt-cache search in sdk)14:29
czrah, I see two processes/threads of ke-recv running on the device.14:29
zuhI doubt it's in the sdk14:29
zuhsince it's pretty device-specific14:29
czrzuh, figures, thanks.14:29
czris there any spec about the stuff that it puts on dbus?14:29
zuhbut it is in the nokia binaries tarball if you really want to ogle at the package (no sources of course)14:30
czrzuh, neh, no source is no good for me14:30
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czrthis is enough, I assume the basic role is still the same though?14:31
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zuhYeah, AFAIK it's just for screaming dbus messages when hw events occur14:32
czrright. will do some research, thanks.14:33
zuhAnd it's one of those packages that even nokians seem to think that are so trivial that it's silly it's not open source. (and yet it is not...)14:33
czrkdbusd was open in 1.1 (at least)14:33
zuhOr so I remember reading from maemo-devel lists14:33
* czr nods14:33
czranother silly question. what is the role of the dbus-vfs-daemon? it has it's own socket (@/dbus-vfs-daemon/socket-foobar)?14:35
zuhThat I don't know14:35
opyPupnik : I got this W: Couldn't stat source package list gregale/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)14:36
opyW: Couldn't stat source package list gregale/non-free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_non-free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) for apt-cache  showpkg14:36
czrzuh, np :-)14:36
czrhmm. I guess netstat doesn't know about netlink sockets then, meh.14:36
zuhopy: seems like you haven't run 'apt-get update' or it hasn't succeeded14:37
opyI run apt-get update but it  hasn't succeeded14:41
pupnikaha now we getting somewhere14:43
czrhmm. any way to find out all the anonymous pipes in the system and which processes are holding them open?14:43
opyZuh : after 'apt-get update' i got Hit gregale/free Packages14:43
opyHit gregale/free Release14:43
opyHit gregale/non-free Packages14:43
opyHit gregale/non-free Release14:43
opyHit gregale/free Sources14:43
_Monkeynsswitch is
opyIgn gregale/free Release14:43
opyHit gregale/non-free Sources14:43
opyIgn gregale/non-free Release14:43
opyErr gregale/free Packages14:43
opy  404 Not Found [IP: 80]14:43
_Monkeynsswitch is
opyIgn gregale/free Release14:43
opyErr gregale/non-free Packages14:43
_Monkeynsswitch is, like,
_Monkeynsswitch is
opy  404 Not Found [IP: 80]14:43
_Monkeynsswitch is
_Monkeynsswitch is
opyIgn gregale/non-free Release14:43
_Monkeyi think nsswitch is
opyGet:1 gregale/free Sources [11.1kB]14:43
opyIgn gregale/free Release14:44
_Monkeywell, nsswitch is
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opyGet:2 gregale/non-free Sources [20B]14:44
opyIgn gregale/non-free Release14:44
_Monkeynsswitch is
opyFetched 11.1kB in 36s (306B/s)14:44
_Monkeyrumour has it nsswitch is
opyFailed to fetch  404 Not Found [IP: 80]14:44
xandopy: do you mind?14:44
opyFailed to fetch  404 Not Found [IP: 80]14:44
opyReading Package Lists... Done14:44
opyW: Couldn't stat source package list gregale/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)14:44
opyW: Couldn't stat source package list gregale/non-free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras_dists_gregale_non-free_binary-arm_Packages) - stat (2 No14:44
opyha ha ha14:44
* czr looks at pupnik with an evil glint in his eyes14:44
zuhHoly copy&paste accident, please don't do that again :)14:44
xandpastebin ffs14:44
czrdid anyone notice my question even? :-)14:45
czr(not very maemo/device specific even)14:45
opypupnik: is it 'hosts: '14:46
czrI had the same snag with 3.2 (and 4.0b) because of feisty having avahi and that pulling mdns NSS module into nsswitch.conf14:47
czrhmm. there doesn't seem to be any interface from the userspace to get the open pipe listing.14:53
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pupniksorry, looking at ./debian/* and configure/make stuff PISSES ME OFF14:58
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czrok, another question then. is there a package I can install into the ARMEL SDK that contains the necesary kernel headers for the device kernel?14:59
czr(running the latest firmware, so I'm assuming the kernel header packages should be per user-image release, right?)15:00
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zuhIf you are talking about N800, rx-34-kernel-headers15:08
czrzuh, yes I am. but how are the differing kernel versions handled then?15:09
czr(case the newest user firmware that fixed the memory card stuff)15:10
zuhI doubt that made any difference on the kernel headers... But you could probably install a specific version of the headers with "apt-get install package=version".15:12
czrzuh, even if apt-cache search kernel-headers only lists 'linux-kernel-headers' and 'rx-34-kernel-headers'?15:12
czrhmm. I'll see shortly15:13
zuhbut what differences you are referring to? AFAIK nokia only supports one image at a time (the lates) and the repositories follow that15:14
czrjust thinking of writing a module, that would work on N800, that's all :-)15:15
czrI've been out of action since 770 came out, so trying to refresh on stuff that might have changed since.15:15
czrstill a bit unsure how the ke-recv interfaces dbus though15:17
czrunless it only opens the dbus connection when there is an event to report15:17
czrlet's see.15:20
kpelis the source of the kernel running on N800 available?15:22
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zuhyes, 'apt-get install kernel-source-rx-34' or look in
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kpelthanks zuh15:26
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czrmeh. strace is having problems decoding connect()..15:30
Blacksitoxhi :)15:31
czralso, the way that ke-recv interfaces with the kernel is weird :-)15:31
czrit gets an unix stream socket form the kernel and it seems that it gets the messages over that.15:32
czrbut I'm having trouble seeing what happens after that.15:32
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czrzuh, I guess the reason why ke-recv is now closed is that it contains binary decoding for the mce stuff coming from the kernel side15:39
czrthe old kdbusd didn't (it only forwarded uevents)15:39
czrzuh, the kernel-headers is not kernel-headers as we know it16:01
czrscripts is missing16:01
czrnot possible to build modules against it for example.16:01
* czr curses silently.16:01
czralso other stuff missing, like arch-specific Makefile, etc..16:02
alteregoYou can download the whole source tree.16:07
czralterego, that wasn't the point really.16:07
czralterego, point being: why have a kernel header package if it cannot be used for anything.16:09
alteregoI understand that16:11
GeneralAntillesHa, awesome, new firmware and now I can't install rtcom or microb16:14
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alteregoYou mean the SDHC kernel update?16:18
alteregoInteresting. They said only that had changed :)16:19
alteregoThough .. You shouldn't have had to reflash the whole device .. Just the kernel ..16:19
GeneralAntillesI was in a reboot-loop16:19
GeneralAntillesso I had to reflash16:19
alteregoOh, nasty16:19
alteregoI've never had that.16:20
GeneralAntillesNot an enjoyable experience.16:20
alteregoWell, something similar, but just taking out the battery for a few seconds and then turning it on again fixed it.16:20
GeneralAntillesFinally get a grandcentral invite and the N800 stops being functionally useful. <_<16:22
alteregoWhat's a "Grandcentral invite"?16:22
alteregoIs that like meeting the queen? ^_^16:22
GeneralAntillesIt's a callforwarding service from Google16:23
GeneralAntillesCaller rings a number they assign you, and it gets forwarded to up to 3 other lines.16:23
GeneralAntillesYeah, I was planning on setting up my Gizmo account with the SIP client16:25
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alteregoDo you have any SDHC cards? I've not bothered updating my N800 yet.16:26
GeneralAntillesNot yet16:26
alteregoFigure I might as well wait until the next proper release.16:26
GeneralAntilleswaiting for the 16GB cards to come down.16:26
alteregoI've got 2x 2Gb SD cards that are fine for now.16:26
GeneralAntillesI was going to wait, but the reboot-loop forced me into it16:27
GeneralAntillesEvidently Nokia can't roll out a simple kernel patch without breaking everything. . . . :(16:27
alteregoI need to figure out how to setup a PAN between my N800 and a WinXP machine ..16:28
alteregoWhere the WinXP machine is the host with internet connection sharing ..16:28
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GeneralAntillesWell, I guess I'll reflash again without restoring from backup.16:30
kpelalterego, u need to offer the DUN service on the pc if u want  to use bluetooth. or use wifi and make the pc the gateway for the n80016:31
alteregoYeah, no wifi on this particular machine. Hence this trouble.16:32
alteregoThe BT adapter uses the standard Windows BT stack ..16:32
alteregoThere doesn't appear to be a way to setup PAN or DUN16:32
kpelhas anyone managed to login to maemo from a n800?16:32
kpelalterego, u need extra sw. search for DUN for windows16:33
kpelthe stack is not enough, u need the server too. in linux i think it's called dund.16:35
alteregoYeah, I can do it in Linux.16:37
alteregoBut this is someone elses machine that runs XP homo.16:37
kpelhomo indeed ;p16:37
czrhuman oriented mechanistic obsession?16:38
czrreminds me of the vista advert that I saw (just yesterday). it was way too funny (N800 chocked on the flash video though).16:38
czr(OT & probably quite old: )16:39
kpellet us know if it works16:40
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GeneralAntillesWell, has anybody else with the new firmware been able to install either microb or rtcom?16:49
GeneralAntillesAnother reflash didn't change the situtation.16:49
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zuhI'm running microb with 4.2007.26-8, dunno if thats "new firmware" as it's pretty old16:57
GeneralAntilles"new firmware" is 4.2007.38-216:59
zuhhmm, I thought I had the latest... *shrug*17:02
czranyone managed to succesfully use the kernel-source package to build out of tree modules that load in N800?17:05
zuhI rebuilt the wlan driver17:06
czrzuh, it's out-of-tree?17:06
czrhmm. I'm building the kernel now, since it seems that make prepare isn't enough to make the tree proper17:06
czrkbuild complaining about missing modules.symvers17:06
czrand scripts/bin/something missing.17:07
czrwhee. lo and behind. the out-of-tree module build snow17:07
czrbuilds now even.17:07
czrbehold even too!17:07
czr"[108952.505798] Hello, world"17:08
czrI still think the kernel-headers package should be fixed so that it would be enough to built out of tree stuff like in any other distro.17:09
zuhAs if anything worked on maemo like in any other distro17:10
czr3.2 isn't as bad as 1.0 though.17:10
alteregoHopefully that aspect is getting better :)17:10
czrfewer snags so far.17:10
czrdifferent snags, but I guess fewer. so far.17:10
alteregoI'm getting endless segfaults from cputrans though17:11
alteregoI never used to .. Starting to wonder if it's not my system ..17:11
czrof course it's not not your system17:11
czrqemu code quality is perfect. it cannot fail. ever.17:11
zuhsbrsh ftw17:12
zuhthough it fails in certain things too17:12
czrI'm just using ssh to the thing and copying stuff over there when I need to test on the device17:12
alteregoSure, I do a lot of testing on the device.17:13
czrexcept for stuff that runs in the sdk.17:13
alteregoBut I'd like to test on my workstation whilst I'm actually developing code.17:13
* czr nods17:13
czrI'd like an open-top bmw17:13
czrnot that it would be any use here. but still.17:13
alteregoSo, anyone know whether chinook is going to be IT2008? or 2007-2 ?17:14
czrhmm. at least now the kernel thing is tested. so I'll probably wrote a module that will dump more info about sockets and pipes later in order to find out how all the pieces are related17:15
alteregoAny more discovery on the random HTTP server?17:15
czralterego, didn't work on that17:15
alteregoI vaguely remember something about this but I can't think what it is/was ..17:15
czrhave more concrete issues to solve atm.17:15
czrlike figuring out all the components of d-bus in the device17:16
alteregoI'd love that ;)17:16
alteregoThe whole system/session DBus service API would be awesome.17:16
czralso noticed that strace on the device doesn't work properly.17:16
czrdoesn't decode all the syscalls properly.17:16
czrand it's already heavily patched by osso17:16
alteregoYou should post some of this stuff on the mailing lists. I'm sure the folks at nokia would like to see everything working properly and stable ;)17:17
czrI might later on, when I get the current stuff out of the way17:17
alteregoI completely agree with the linux-headers package issue. I tried compiling fuse and sshfs but obviously couldn't because the package is broken.17:17
alteregoI didn't bother investigating it further. Though I may do in the future.17:18
alteregoI'm kind of in a rush to get ruby-maemo completely out of the door.17:18
czryou can also throw it out of the window17:19
alteregoYou like throwing things out of the window don't you ;)17:19
czralterego, I need to implement couple of tools to aid the research stuff, and I won't have time for that at least for couple of weeks17:19
czrand depending on what I'll find more interesting at that point, can't make promises :-)17:20
czralterego, it's the fastest solution to most problems most of the time..17:20
alteregoI'm dreaming that there's svideo out ..17:20
alteregoAgain something I was going to look into but ruby-maemo is taking over my life right now outside of work ^_^17:21
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pupnikbeer_Monkey, mud-builder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
_MonkeyOK, pupnikbeer.18:00
pupnikbeer_Monkey, mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
_MonkeyOK, pupnikbeer.18:01
zoranthere is a chance you talk to the bot18:01
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pupnikbeeryes i teach the bot zoran18:07
pupnikbeernormally i do it in privmsg but maybe Jaffa is around to see it18:07
pupnikbeeri would gladly help with documentation but i do not yet understand it18:09
pupnikbeermaybe it just needs some more 'edge case' handling18:09
zoranwhat bot, of not a secret?18:09
pupnikbeer_Monkey is a bot18:09
pupnikbeerhi _Monkey18:09
pupnikbeer_Monkey: hi18:10
_Monkeyprivet, pupnikbeer18:10
zoranno, I meant what is the software?18:10
czruu, it knows languages too18:10
_Monkeymud-builder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
pupnikbeercustom made i think18:10
celesteh_Monkey: _Monkey?18:10
_Monkeyi am the best programmer in the whole freenode IRC right now18:10
* zuh expected "yes, please"18:12
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czrzuh, obviously it's not just any ordinary monkey :-)18:13
* Jaffa wakes up18:13
celesteh_Monkey, banana is something I'd like right now18:14
_MonkeyOK, celesteh.18:14
zoran_Monkey, what _Monkey is called _Monkey18:14
_Monkeyzoran: wish i knew18:14
Jaffapupnikbeer: anything in particular you'd like to know?18:14
pupnikbeerYou know mud-builder?18:15
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* Jaffa *wrote* mud-builder :-)18:17
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_Monkeywell, mudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
pupnikbeerIt tries to download a non-existent  source package after i have put the source tarball into build/MYAPP/.build18:18
zoranhm mudbuilder?18:18
_Monkeymudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
pupnikbeerand there is no debian source package available18:18
zoranhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mudbuilder?18:18
_Monkeymudbuilder is "Maemo Unofficial Debs" - an autobuilder for simple source ports that hosts them in a single repository.  Forum at
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pupnikbeerJaffa, so perhaps i should skip the "mud get mycal" step ?18:18
zoranhm n n n n n n n n n n n n mudbuilder?18:18
Jaffapupnikbeer: I'd need to see the XML file, but it sounds like you're specifying the source type as debian, when it's not.18:19
zuhzoran: You could do that in privmsgs too, you know ;)18:19
zoran:), sorry18:19
pupnikbeerthat's right Jaffa - thanks for the info18:19
pupnikbeerwhat should go into type="" for a local file?18:19
JaffaBecause of the way it works, it's probably best to get it to download the tarball from somewhere.18:20
JaffaSee for more details18:21
JaffaIn particular, <fetch type="tarball">18:21
JaffaYou can put a local path outside of the mud tree, or a URL18:21
pupnikbeerthanks!  i should have read through that.  sorry.18:22
JaffaNo probs, I know the documentation's lacking.18:22
JaffaAnd I'm sorry for that.18:22
pupnikbeeri can help when i understand it - thanks for the response18:23
JaffaExcellent, feel free to ask any question of me at any time, either here, via email direct or on the mud-builder mailing list.18:23
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pupnikbeermud compile sdlscavenger Failed to run compile on sdlscavenger: Unable to read control: No such file or directory18:25
pupnikbeerthe source tree has no debian/control18:25
pupnikbeershould i make one?18:25
Jaffapupnikbeer: hmm, that suggests that running dh_make on it (should automatically happen after the tarball's been extracted) failed.18:25
Jaffapupnikbeer: you can make one yourself, but it should create one from the info in the package XML file if not present.18:26
pupnikbeeri manually exctracted the tarball to the .build directory18:26
zoran_2I'd like to ask how to manage something just mundane in ash: how to get rid od path before the prompt; .profile does not give a result (maemo-hackers' xterm018:26
Jaffapupnikbeer: you shouldn't need to unpack it yourself into .build18:27
pupnikbeerjust following directions :)18:27
pupnikbeerso i can delete build/sdlscavenger/.build and rerun compile?18:28
pupnikbeeror delete build/sdlscavenger ?18:28
pupnikbeerwhere does the xml specify location of tarball?18:29
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Jaffadelete build/sdlscavenger, make sure your sdlscavenger.xml has <fetch type="tarball">, specifying the location.18:29
JaffaAh, hang on (yes, that bit of the docs is missing ;-))18:29
JaffaSee packages/vim.xml for an example.18:30
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pupnikbeerok thanks18:30
JaffaSo you'll want something like file:///home/pupnik/src/mytarball.tar.gz - or, ideally, a pointer to the upstream so it can be built on others' machines.18:31
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pupnikbeerniceee.. works good18:35
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zoranhm, someone changed prompt in maemo-hackers' xterm, using busybox?18:53
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alteregozoran, yes.19:16
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|R <- anyone running this on an n800 and the latest firmware? :)19:41
|R(Dope Wars)19:41
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czralterego,  . feedback appreciated20:03
disqcruel world. heh20:10
disqnice doc20:11
rlifchitzczr: great !20:11
czrprobably should post a note about it on the maemo-devel list20:11
czralthough that would mean subscribing to the list first :-)20:11
disqyou could opt to not receive any mail20:14
|RW: GPG error: bora Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG CBFC2BECC6903E72 Nokia Internet Tablet Archive Automatic Signing Key <>20:14
czrnah, might as well sub20:14
disqit sucks anyway you say gstreamer==poo and suddenly all nokia chaps jump on you20:14
|Rany reasons why i would now be getting this? :/20:14
disqi sometimes get that too20:14
czrdisq, you say <insert any open source project with significant effort investment>==poo, and suddenly.. well, you know :-)20:15
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|Rit blocks the application manager from instaling thing as it can't update the list ... i've put the lines in source.list in commentary for now but ... well :)20:15
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* czr remembers asking all the wrong questions on GTK+ irc channel20:16
czrand I didn't even use the p word, mind you.20:17
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czrif that is the first p-word that pops into your mind when speaking about GTK+, then.. well.. can't blame you :-)20:20
disqgtk+.. and p.. PObject? no, that's not it20:21
disqpirates? arrrrr. no, i don't think so20:22
czrhmm. I wonder if it would make sense to make a class abstration for PO-files.20:22
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|Ranyone still has a mirror for the rdesktop 0.2 package? ehore's one is dead  :|20:25
disqmaemo garage?20:27
disqwhy 0.2?20:27
|Rdisq : the link is dead there... i only found a link by google20:27
|Rbut now that server is dead too20:27
|R(doesn't work)20:28
disqwhy not install
|Rgood question :P20:28
disqshould work just fine on it200620:28
|Ri'm on 2007 here though20:28
disqshould work even better20:29
|Rok then, cool, thanks, where did you find it ? in 2007 it only linked to 0.1 and in 2006 to 0.3a weird!20:29
disqwhere, in
|Roh damn20:30
|Rok i get it.. doesn't search the same thing as garage!20:31
|Rthat's a bit odd :P20:31
|Rsorry ;)20:31
|Rnext time i'll try both :)20:31
disqnope, says 0.3a. though it will install the latest since it's installing from the repositories (in this case, 0.4)20:31
alteregoczr, looks good.20:31
|Rok :)20:31
* czr nods appreciatively at alterego20:32
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czrdamn the text layout engine in opera is crappy20:55
czror maybe the CSS support is "wanting".20:55
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zerojayOpera's pretty old now.20:58
zerojayI think that's like.. two or three years old.20:59
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czrI'd assumed that N800 would ship with something more recent then20:59
* czr shrugs20:59
zerojayUntil recently, it was the latest mobile version of Opera.21:00
zerojayInstall Microb then.21:00
zerojayNice and bleeding edge.21:00
czrsomeone was complaining just today that it's not possible to install it with the newest fw21:00
zerojayI was able to install it just fine.21:01
czrbut maybe I'll try it out later, I don't use N800 much anyway, just wanted to see what my text-heavy page looks on it21:01
czroh, ok. user error then :-)21:01
zerojayMaybe, maybe not.21:01
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czrhmm. I created a account on, got redirected to (which works fine). However, doesn't want me to login anyway. any hints?21:12
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GeneralAntilleszerojay, microb worked for you on the latest firmware?21:28
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GeneralAntillesI haven't had any luck21:28
GeneralAntillesit seems like the meta-package is missing.21:28
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yetihwelttilhi, does anyone know if the webcam in the N800 can be used by flash for things such as direct upload on youtube?22:39
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flip^i guess the answer would be "if someone made it happen, then yes"22:44
flip^but someone's gotta want to code it first22:44
flip^and no one wants to code for the n800's sucky camera22:44
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Atariiwat megapixel is it?22:45
yetihwelttilyeah, i saw some photos from it and it was pretty noisy and.. horrible22:45
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pupnikare you comparing it to other micro cameras?22:45
flip^it's a nice little novelty feature, possibly ok for something like skype, but that's as far as it goes... "ok"22:45
pupnikor real cameras?22:45
yetihwelttilto most micro cameras22:45
flip^the low quality camera on my N95 is better ;)22:46
yetihwelttili'm just thinking it would be neat to be able to do flash based video streaming etc via it22:46
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zerojayThe camera's not very good, but it works well enough for my needs.22:47
zerojayyetihwelttil: And no, the camera isn't detected by Flash.22:47
* flip^ should really try using the camera for something osmetime22:48
zerojayyetihwelttil: You'll have to bother Adobe about that.22:48
yetihwelttilthat could be challenging :P22:48
* flip^ wants a jdk on his n800 :(22:49
zerojayBuild it then.22:49
zerojayIt's not like it isn't available.22:51
flip^well, it's not much use without a jre as well tbh, and that would be a lot of effort22:51
pupniki want the adobe employee who decided postscript should become non-text to get pancreatic cancer22:51
zerojayThere is a jre.22:51
flip^yeah, i heard it's not exactly 100% yet22:51
zerojayIf all you want to do is run Java apps, it'll work.22:51
flip^and i'm only really starting out on getting myself a dev environment for maemo anyway... just copying the vmware appliance to my laptop as we speak in fact22:51
pupnikyou used to be able to parse postscript with unix tools - sed/awk/perl22:51
zerojayDon't expect it to work in the browser or with any gui elements though22:51
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zerojayYou can check out Jalimo or try helping out with some fixes on PhoneME Advance's port to the N800.22:54
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zerojayHonestly, I don't really see much of a use for Java anyways.22:55
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zerojayAnd what a horrible choice for use in small embedded devices, really.22:55
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flip^Java is useful because its portable without recompiling, and its what I know.... used it plenty of times in places I've worked, so there's clearly demand22:58
zerojayIt's what I use at work as well.22:59
flip^I do more stuff with php these days tbh, but occasionally java has its uses23:00
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flip^wanting to play with maemo stuff leaves me fearing touching C++ again mind23:00
zerojayI'd much rather be doing that than Java.23:00
zerojayEspecially on cell phones.23:01
zerojayA hell of a lot nicer than trusting that the JVM's garbage collector even works.23:01
flip^well, maybe... but all of my C/C++ work has been working on the platform I'm compiling for, often working with other people's code... this is the first time I've had a desire to really try something like this23:02
flip^the gc tends to be pretty reasonable these days ;)23:02
zerojayDon't be too sure about that.23:03
flip^Well, it collects the garbage I create happily enough generally ;)23:03
zerojayAt least not on the different JVMs I have to work with.23:03
flip^well, that may be true :)23:03
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zerojayWouldn't be so bad if they all used the same one, but they don't.23:04
zerojayI hope the open sourcing of Java fixes that in the future.23:04
czrI don't ever recall seeing a bytecode compiled java program run the same way on different devices/jvms23:04
flip^the only language I had any real success with on a mobile device was OPL, years ago ;)23:04
czrunless they are tested specifically across multiple environments23:04
czrand even then it's just "meh" after "meh".23:05
zerojayI work on mobile games.23:05
flip^any i might have heard of?23:05
zerojaySo.. getting it to work across everything is kind of my job.23:05
czrzerojay, so you know what I'm talking about :-)23:05
zerojayProbably not, unless you're a 16 year old girl.23:05
zerojayczr: I know the pain all too well.23:05
flip^nah, I definitely lack every quality needed to be a 16 year old girl23:06
czrI got the sense to get out of java when it was still 1.0/1.1ish23:06
czr(although I got out of pretty much everything back then)23:06
zerojayI want out of mobile so bad.23:06
zerojayThankfully, we're starting work on console games.23:06
czrat least there's a limited number of them23:07
czrconsoles I mean.23:07
flip^and much higher expectations from the audience23:07
zerojayYeah.. 2 or 3 instead of 2 or 3 hundred.23:07
zerojayWhat sucks about mobile is that the carriers have such a strong say in what comes out and what doesn't.23:08
pupnikzerojay: in mobile, what portion of development budget goes to graphics and sound vs programming?23:08
zerojayIf you are making an ambitious game and you know only high end phones will run it.. Sprint will tell you to take a hike if it doesn't run on their top 25 selling models... which are of course all the cheapest phones they have.23:09
zerojayIn mobile, sound usually gets very little.23:09
zerojayMainly because the phones still can't handle some basic shit like playing two sounds at a time or even looping.23:09
zerojayMost of the graphics are done in preproduction. Maybe a month tops unless you've got some major changes.23:10
flip^I like to play games in quiet places anyway ;)23:10
pupnikit is a vague question sorry23:10
zerojayProgramming takes up the most... even for a small ass game, we might have 3 guys working on it for 8 months.23:10
zerojayAnd that's just for our first master.23:11
zerojayAdd another two or three months with 10 guys for porting to other phones.23:11
pupnikeenteresting :)23:11
zerojayThankfully, because of the way things work, most of the time we can have a build working on a phone within 10 minutes.23:11
zerojayUnless it's a real shitbox.23:11
zerojayThere are times where our publisher says "we've got phone X here as a prerelease... give us a build!"23:12
zerojayAnd they don't give us even basic specs.23:12
zerojayWe have to try making the builds completely blindly.23:12
zerojayAnd wait a day for the people on the other side of the planet to tell us if we guessed wrong.23:13
zerojaySo.. you've got something like 300 phones to port your game to.23:13
zerojayIn 13 languages.23:13
zerojayFor 15 operators.23:14
zerojayEach of which has their own wishlist.23:14
zerojayOr requirements.23:14
zerojayTelefonica (Spain) requires us to have an option advertizing other games, for example.23:14
zerojayOr just showing people how to get more games.23:14
pupnikbig guy pushing little guy around23:15
pupnikhappened that way when i wrote stuff for a company that made stuff for a biggg company23:16
zerojayIt also doesn't help that our publisher gives the carriers completely non-sensical deadlines.23:16
Atariizerojay wat company do u work for?23:16
pupnikgovernment games23:17
zerojayBecause this is being logged publically, I don't think I'll be saying that here.23:17
zerojayA small project from one of the largest game companies out there.23:17
zerojayWell, we're not so small now.23:17
zerojay3 offices.23:17
zerojay100ish people.23:17
czrah. you are the people behind nethack!23:17
pupnikthat's a good size - don't get much bigger23:17
zerojayMy office is already too big.23:18
zerojay76 people or so.23:18
pupnikfor a specific type of company23:18
zerojayWhen I started, there was about 15.23:18
zerojayFelt very much like a family atmosphere.23:19
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zerojayNowadays.. not so much. Lots more people that don't really want to do well.. they just want to have something nice to put on their resume.23:19
czrit get much worse after 100 though23:20
zerojayYeah.. that's what I'm afraid of.23:21
czrslow degradation to about 200, after that you start to read emails from people you've never met, and are likely not to meet.23:21
czrand that's where all the "not my problem" stuff starts to happen.23:21
zerojayOh, I already do that all the time.23:21
czrsince people stop being socially responsible and such23:21
czrwell, obviously since you have branches around the world, but you get my meaning I hope23:22
pupnikwell lets help more young idealistic people get into game programming23:22
zerojayAbout 25 coworkers coming in for Guitar Hero 3 night... not bad.23:22
pupnikotherwise there won't be anyone for the suits to rape and abuse23:22
czrzerojay, heh23:23
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pupnikand without the idealistic younguns with energy, the whole game collapses23:23
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* czr wouldn't be so sure about that23:24
czrmost younglings lack perspective.23:25
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czrnot saying that older people have perspective either, but the odds are in their favour.23:26
pupniki need to find more 1920s music23:26
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ZenGeisthi all23:28
ZenGeisti want to install rtcomm23:28
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ZenGeistbut I can not do this because of dependences :(23:28
ZenGeistevolution-data-server, but it is installed already23:28
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