IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2007-06-13

Sho_ah, there's a cifs for it200700:00
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Sho_hm, becomes unresponsive quite often00:07
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k-s[WORK]gotta go00:17
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Sho_yay, got cifs working00:44
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pupnik Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran!00:46
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unique311sfai fer windows..not bad...01:12
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livingtmI copied the maemopad example and attempted to change its name. now i get the error "dpkg-source: error: source package has two conflicting values - newproject and maemopad". I cant seem to figure out where i need to change the name to straighten this out04:42
Milhouse2Anyone able to confirm that Planet Maemo ( and Bugzilla ( are both DOWN right now?04:46
lle2Milhouse2: I think the whole cluster of sites is moderately fucked04:48
Milhouse2the home page and wiki (midgard) seem to be ok04:48
Milhouse2but several deeper links are, as you say, fucked04:48
Milhouse2pissing me off04:49
lle2for the last couple of weeks all of them have been either broken or very slow04:49
Milhouse2i don't suppose i have any right to be pissed off though - it's not as if i'm paying for a serivce but a degree of professional hosting isn't too much to ask is it?04:50
Milhouse2whores drawers04:50
Milhouse2up... down... up... down...04:50
* lle2 shrugs04:50
Milhouse2I just tried to validate the Planet Maemo url via the w3c validation service and it is indeed giving "Service Unavailable" errors, so that helps confirm it isn't my end thats causing the problem. thanks lle2 for checking/replying. :)04:52
lle2np ;)04:52
lle2funny thing is that the layout is broken on n80004:53
Milhouse2beginning to wish they'd left it unchanged04:53
lle2it seems to be broken on firefox (iceweasel as well04:53
unique311safari xp04:54
lle2makes me wonder what the hell they test it with04:54
lle2yeah, it's more like a question, not an answer ;)04:54
unique311working over here..04:55
Milhouse2Planet Maemo still down here -
unique311news is down04:56
Milhouse2Make sure you refresh/ctrl-r/ctrl-f5 etc.04:56
unique311news is planet04:56
Milhouse2home page ( is UP for me04:56
Milhouse2ah, right04:56
Milhouse2i thougt you meant the News link on the Home page which takes you to somewhere else other than Planet! :)04:57
unique311well it takes you to news..04:57
Milhouse2Maemo can never have enough News pages!!04:57
Milhouse2Home->News takes you to Garage News (this is up)04:58 is the same as planet.maemo.org04:58
lle2it's like the login and account creation on the home page which seem to be totally unrelated04:58
Milhouse2Christ, there could be 3 "news" pages!04:58
Milhouse2News at the top takes you to
lle2none of which have anything in them04:59
edtYou are not alone.  maemo has been slow and unavailable at times here too.04:59
Milhouse2News in the middle takes you to
Milhouse2and then of course there is the Planet04:59
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lle2maybe setting up a bunch of new mailing lists will solve the problem04:59
Milhouse2I worry for the future of the Internet Tablet platform if this is how they can fck up a web site05:00
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Milhouse2No wonder the UI is so... interesting.05:00
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lle2well, we can always throw a few dozen more project managers at it, I'm sure it will help improve things05:02
edtactually once you get used to the UI its fairly usable.  I would like it if it remembered the browswer setting for a site.  eg when using rss and going to one or two sites it gets tiring to have to rezoom, ad reposition the page the same way EVERY time....05:02
Milhouse2I would class that as a classic lack of attention to detail... pretty much the same problems that blight the site redesign05:02
Milhouse2Initially it looks nice, then you start noticing stuff like multiple News links05:03
edtand have the home a refresh keys work as pgup and pgdn after the menu key is selected would really help too05:03
Milhouse2which each link to different News pages...05:03
Milhouse2Sean Luke pretty much nailed it05:03
lle2how could the PMs have any attention to details of which their grasp is vague at best and plain wrong the rest of the time05:04
Milhouse2 - worth a read if you haven't read it already05:04
Milhouse2If the UI is still lacking polish after the next iteration of IT OS (which would be what - the 7th?) I might have to give up on Nokia05:05
Milhouse2Other vendors will eat their lunch05:05
lle2haha, it will be a crappy lunch to eat05:05
lle2I would pass05:05
edtactually a _good_ pm or manager does NOT need to understand how to do the job.  Two years ago I would have said differently.  I have had a good manager who does not know the how to for the last two years and our team has never been more effective.05:05
Milhouse2I like the concept of the tablet and the form factor, I just think Nokia are dropping the ball with the general shoddiness of the software05:06
edtThat is "how to do the job" from a tech perspective05:06
lle2edt: that assumes that there are non-PMs in the organization05:06
edtthere need to be a few - we do have the n770 and n800 plus a few phones...05:06
Milhouse2I think you just need the right people in the right positions - a PM doesn't design the software, or dictate the look & feel. Projects like the Internet Tablet OS needs someone who focuses solely on look & feel, if you leave it to the developers you end up with... well, the Internet Tablet OS05:08
edtan apple pm/designer would have really helped05:08
lle2I could write a book about what went wrong with the maemo software crap05:08
edtthe mac in 83 was better than the pc is now in many ways05:09
edt(and yes I did have a mac 84...)05:09
Milhouse2In any project the look & feel guys should have final say. In fact, the look & feel guys should be outside of any project group so that they have ultimate sign off on all projects.05:09
lle2what if the look&feel guys don't have a clue?05:09
edtyou fire them05:10
edtreally fast05:10
Milhouse2aye... fire 'em05:10
Milhouse2they're uber critical05:10
edtyou also need a good integrator that understands perf05:10
lle2or if they are slaves to totally moronic product management drones05:10
edtso they can tell the ui guys this costs too much - try again...05:10
edtthe N800 is guite usable05:11
lle2if you like to tap a lot05:11
edtso nokia did not do a bad job of the above...05:11
edtthere is room for improvement05:11
Milhouse2Strong look & feel teams pays for themselves in the long run... not only do you get a more coherent product but the "not good enough, do this again" problems lessen as the developers understand the bigger picture05:13
edtits just hard to build an keep an effective team05:13
Milhouse2eventually the developers get onto the same wavelenghth as the look&feel guys, and at that point it becomes a good situation.05:13
Milhouse2I'd have thought some people would bite arms off to work on a project like this05:14
Milhouse2but if it's mismanaged, then i could understand people getting hacked off05:14
edtwould make tapping hard...05:14
unique311wherez ma update nokiaaaaaaaaaaa.05:15
edtI have had my n800 for a week.  I think I am getting to know what it can do05:15
lle2unique311: what update?05:15
edtdoes nokia have  a schedule for the next update?05:15
Milhouse2hurrah - planet has returned05:15
unique311update with skype...05:15
unique311it was all over internettablettalk...05:16
edtand sdhc05:16
Milhouse2looks like other bits of are still getting to their feet05:16
unique311but i think it was a asshole trying to get on someones nerves...05:16
edtwonder if they looked at the SD or CFS schedulers05:16
edtthey would help when you load the box05:16
Milhouse2yeah, i think sdhc has been confirmed by a reasonably reliable source (ie. no reason to doubt them!)05:16
edtand the also is someone working on logfs - an fs for larger flash memory devices05:17
Milhouse2Bugzilla is back05:17
Milhouse2Still slow... so no changes there.05:17
lle2good, would have made me nervous05:17
edtif that is ready for this fall adding it and CFS/SD would make a nice update on the kernel side05:18
Milhouse2CFS or SD? whats that?05:18
Milhouse2Skype was promised "by the end of the first half of 2007" - which means by the end of June...05:18
Milhouse2CFS == The Completely Fair Scheduler ?05:19
unique311so the last friday in june?05:19
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Milhouse2unique - yes that would be my guess, Fri 29 June05:21
JussiPOr rather, at June 29th they announce that it will be delayed slightly. To second half of 2007.05:21
Milhouse2i wonder if tickless timers are in the N800 kernel05:22
Milhouse2JussiP - possible, but so far Nokia have been pretty good with their promises05:22
JussiPI think that's up to Skype, not Nokia...05:23
Milhouse2or maybe both :)05:23
derfMilhouse2: It wouldn't matter. They aren't using a recent enough version of GTK to see any benefit.05:23
Milhouse2derf - i was thinking more about power saving, would tickless timers save on juice?05:24
Milhouse2less waking up the cpu etc.05:24
derfA marginal amount, maybe.05:24
lle2edt: we're probably not going ship with the new schedulers any time soon, bad luck with timing.05:25
derfBut more recent versions of GTK are actually optimized so that all their timers go off at the same time (unless they explicitly need to be more accurate).05:25
Milhouse2lle2 - no pun intended? ;)05:25
edtlle2 I was think N+205:25
edtwhere N is the current released version05:25
derfSo, e.g., the CPU wakes up once per second, processes all the GUI timers, and then goes back to sleep.05:25
lle2Milhouse2: :)05:25
edtit will take time to get the new schedulers on to omap05:26
derfIn older versions, they are all out of sync.05:26
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Milhouse2so if you have a 10 second timer, the cpu is woken 9 times before the timer is activated?05:26
derfSo it will still wake up your CPU dozens/hundreds of times a second.05:26
edtthink you will also need a timesource other than jiffies to either sd or cfs work well05:26
derfMilhouse2: No.05:26
lle2derf: unless there is a shitload of timers it won't make much difference05:26
derfThere are always a shitload of timers.05:27
Milhouse2doesn't sound the most efficient design from a power saving point of view05:27
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edtwhen I looke in /sys I saw a dyntick setting which was on05:27
lle2it's using dyntick05:27
edtthink we may be using dyntick on the n80005:27
lle2gets woken up about four times per sec, or at least that's how it was not too long ago05:28
Milhouse2dyntick is for the high res and tickless timers, isn't it?05:28
derfMilhouse2: The point is that when you set a timer for 10 seconds, it goes off at xx:xx:xx.000 ms.05:28
JussiPPowertop for teh win. :)05:28
edtlle2 is the new release still based on 2.6.18 ?05:28
lle2the immediate update to N800 is05:28
derfAnd every other timer set for n seconds also goes off at 0 ms after the second.05:28
derfSo all the timers go off together.05:28
lle2there's another update coming that will bump the kernel later05:28
Milhouse2derf - i think i understand, thanks :)05:29
Milhouse2didn't sdhc land on .20?05:29
derfBut only with GTK 2.14 and later, and only if the application has been explicitly written to support it.05:29
Milhouse2easy to backport though05:30
edtlle2 there is logfs which will probably make it into mm and which will stabilze it quickly.  If this happens fast enough it might pay to use it late this year05:30
lle2edt: at the moment planning is that the second update will be 2.6.2105:30
Milhouse2is there a tentative date for the second update... end Q3?05:31
lle2can't say :)05:31
Milhouse2just trying to get a rough idea of the release strategy... every 3 months-ish05:31
edthow the aswer is when it ready05:31
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infobotedt meant: hope the aswer is when it ready05:31
Milhouse2that's always a good one, i try that but get funny looks from my users :(05:31
edtso you give scripted demos so they can see what they will get.  Then you use a script you _know_ will fail and they understand its not ready just yet...05:32
edtnext time they come by you do need that second script working....05:33
Milhouse2heck if I had the time to put together a scripted demo i'd ship that instead! ;)05:33
lle2scripted users would be better05:33
Milhouse2i'm sure they already are, they always ask the same things... "when will it be ready" and "why isn't it ready yet"05:34
edtlle2 on change I would love to see on the interface size is a page up and down.  It could be done painlessly by using the refresh and home keys when the menu is active05:34
infobotedt meant: lle2 on change I would love to see on the interface side is a page up and down.  It could be done painlessly by using the refresh and home keys when the menu is active05:34
Milhouse2edt - i think thats already discussed in bugzilla05:35
Milhouse2something about it being the default on the Mac, or something05:35
Milhouse2but it refers to the scrollbar/thumbtrack05:35
lle2I'm silently hoping there would be a little config applet allowing remapping the keys05:35
edtalso a memory for the browser setting for sites (maybe configurable via bookmarks)05:36
lle2as of today I'm never using the hw keys, except the fullscreen one05:36
edtI often use the hw keys.  All of them05:36
derfThe hw keys are mostly unusable.05:36
Milhouse2digging the infobot - at work we use IRC a lot and bots are usually called "Monkey".. much more approriate05:37
derfScrolling webpages with them is next to impossible, and navigating links with them is actually impossible.05:37
lle2derf: yup, they seem to be carefully designed never to do anything useful05:37
edtderf depends on the webpage - they are the fastest way for me to reposition on the pages I commonly use05:38
derfPlus they are so hard to push... I find it easier to actually use the stylus to hit the menu button than my finger.05:38
Milhouse2site specific options has been discussed in bugzilla as well (I think i brought it up in relation to Flash functionality - some sites such as shouldn't disable the screen)05:38
edtalso some sites are better rendered with "optimized view" others are scrambled...05:39
edtwould be nice if the setting was remembered05:39
edtone other use for the n800 is reading books05:39
edtwith fbreader and books from baen (alot are free) you can spend a lot of time reading05:40
edtand the n800 has good enough battery life for it too05:40
lle2I think the battery lasts pretty well these days if the wlan network is a quiet one05:40
Milhouse2edt - Unfortunately I get the impression that Nokia have their hands tied where Opera is concerned... Nokia should have helped out with the Minimo dev or ported their own WebKit browser, we'd be in a much better position by now and not depending on some third party to pull their finger out if and only if Nokia pay them to do the development05:41
edtlle2 or you turn off wlan - which really helps05:41
edtso talk the the firefox people05:41
Milhouse2edt - I'd buy an extended battery tomorrow if Nokia sold one05:42
lle2Milhouse2: people are working on the mozilla based browser05:42
edtunless nokia have a really stupid contract firefox should be do able.05:42
edtlle2 good news - not that opera is working badly05:42
lle2it just takes time, not trivial to get performance and stability into shape05:43
Milhouse2I believe Nokia were well in with the Mozilla Foundation a few years ago, even sponsoring Minimo but they don't seem to be that involved in it's development - if they are it's one guy05:43
lle2it's not just one guy05:43
edtlle2 do you know if anyone is looking at the accelerated X drivers?05:43
* edt know they will take time to stabilize...05:44
Milhouse2lle2 - glad to hear that, although it appears to be only one guy (Tonkitti) who is porting Minimo to IT OS05:44
lle2edt: yes, me and daniels05:44
Milhouse2there may be more in the background working on IT OS, I hope so05:44
edtlle2 sounds like you have your hands full (of interesting stuff)05:44
Milhouse2s/IT OS/porting Minimo to IT OS/05:45
infobotMilhouse2 meant: there may be more in the background working on porting Minimo to IT OS, I hope so05:45
edtits sleepy time here05:45
Milhouse2aye... i'm heading off too. nice chatting with you guys :)05:45
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lle2Milhouse2: dunno if they are working on minimo, have not followed that stuff too much, but the idea is to use mozilla codebase *soon*05:46
* edt needs to be awake at work tomorrow05:46
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Milhouse2lle2 - that would be most excellent! :)05:46
edtlle2 thanks for the info05:46
Milhouse2breaking the Opera dependency has to be a good thing in the long term05:46
Milhouse2right, time to reboot my XP PC after the latest Patch Tuesday updates... sigh05:46
lle2being compatible with 15% of desktop browsers is important05:46
Milhouse2free and increased compatability - what's not to like?05:47
lle2free is not terribly accurate ;) only if you talk about the license...05:47
lle2same with almost all of the interesting OSS components05:48
lle2maybe only with things like busybox we can say that they are "free as in beer"05:49
Milhouse2true, Nokia will need to spend some time on porting and testing but once the code is more or less stable I bet it works out lower than the cost of Opera... and of course if Nokia (or the community) want to add something they can (more or less) at little cost05:49
lle2I personally don't think the price is that big of a deal, it's more about functionality05:49
lle2which may sound strange, but it's true05:50
Milhouse2the (in)ability to change functionality is a major problem05:50
Milhouse2as are the licencing terms which appear to be preventing a newer version of Opera being made available on 770s, for instance05:51
Milhouse2that sucks05:51
lle2yeah, but there was no alternative at the time, given the constraints05:51
Milhouse2absolutely - i can understand 2 years ago that time to market was a concern, and minimo or any other alternative was probably not ready05:52
Milhouse2but since then nokia should/could have considered alternatives that allowed it to go totally OSS where the browser is concerned.05:52
lle2we looked pretty hard at using anything else, anything at all, but it was just not possible to make it happen, not with our organization at that time05:53
Milhouse2hopefully the situation is improving rapidly :)05:53
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lle2things have improved a lot, but gotten maybe worse in other ways, as always when organizations grow05:55
livingtmare there c++ bindings for gtk on the 770?06:11
lle2it seems maemo roadmap has disappeared from the website06:15
livingtmi see references to hildonmm out there on the net, wondering if it is recommended06:16
Milhouse2yeah, looks like a config error06:16
Milhouse2Wiki isn't looking too clever either...06:16
Milhouse2... but it (Wiki) just loaded - took a long while06:17 is very, very, sllllloooow.06:18
lle2well, it is supposed to be a kind of sourceforge work-alike, isn't it? ;)06:20
Milhouse2ha... yes, it's very authentic06:21
lle2this is what you get when nokia pays attention to detail06:22
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lle2amazing thing was that the guaranteed to be static mail archives were also really slow a few days ago06:23
Milhouse2lets hope Nokia pay attention to the iphone UI when it's released :) I'm not a fan of Apple or the iPhone, but I bet it will have a consistent UI06:23
lle2I'm actually really looking forward to that device coming out06:24
Milhouse2me too, it should make things "interesting"06:24
Milhouse2I'm not actually a fan of touchscreen phones - I have a SonyEricsson W950i - and I see that Nokia aren't fans either06:24
lle2phone UIs have steadily gotten worse since the original 211006:25
lle2only the last batch of nokia's phones have started again approaching the level of simplicity with the most used functions06:26
Milhouse2I liked the simplicity of the Nokia 8110 (Banana/matrix) :)06:26
SeRiDo mericales do excist? if they do please make euchreprof be ban!!!06:27
Milhouse2Nokia on touchscreen phones:
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lle2now there's some deep insight in there06:33
Milhouse2well it is only engadget :)06:33
Milhouse2and there isn't much info in the  linked article, but to be honest I'd say he (mr nokia bloke) is bang on the money06:34
Milhouse2i like buttons and tactile feedback when i use a phone - i've learned this to my cost having owned the W950i for the last 6 months06:34
Milhouse2the iPhone will look sexy and have the eye candy UI but without buttons... it's not for me06:35
Milhouse2plus the hardware spec is pretty poor (no 3G - are they nuts?!)06:36
GeneralAntillesWhy there so many crazy people on ITT?06:37
Milhouse2Easy... I'm one of 'em! ;)06:37
Milhouse2And quite probably one of whome you may be referring :D06:37
GeneralAntillesI'm just reading the update thread.06:38
Milhouse2The non-locked Skype thread?06:38
GeneralAntillessapporobaby and euchreprof are the main ones06:38
lle2Milhouse2: I think full-body touchscreen is the future of mobile devices, additional kick-back from a haptic thingy as well06:39
GeneralAntillesI want some N900 spyshots so I have a reason to start saving up again.06:40
lle2it will be good enough, I personally hate the keypads on most phones06:40
Milhouse2lle2 - now if they can get some sort of feedback going on the touchscreen then I agree you may be right but without any sort of feedback touchscreens are a non starter for me06:40
lle2Milhouse2: it will suck badly in finland though, during the winter ;)06:40
GeneralAntillesWell, they're not perfect, but I've gotten pretty good at typing on the Nokia's fullscreen keyboard.06:40
Milhouse2lle2 - I wonder if anyone has consdired really thick gloves as a use case?!06:41
lle2I like the thumb keyboard as well, only it should be transparent06:41
lle2Milhouse2: you can't use the newer phones with gloves on anyway, so not much lost there06:41
GeneralAntillesThat would be sweet06:41
GeneralAntillesand the weird text duplication bug really needs to be fixed.06:41
Milhouse2lle2 - i think someone posted a deb here wich rendered the virtual keyboard trasnparent06:41
Milhouse2General - not to mention the crazy auto capitalisation bug in Opera06:42
GeneralAntillesThat's irritating as all get out.06:43
GeneralAntillesIt's too bad today's devices are too small to have handwriting like the Newton.06:43
Milhouse2I enter very little text into my N800 to be honest06:43
GeneralAntillesI post to forums and stuff at work.06:44
Milhouse2The occasional Google/Wiki search... all my usual pages are bookmarked...06:44
Milhouse2I've tried that, I'll do it in extreme cases but find it too much bother06:44
Milhouse2to post from the N800 that is06:44
GeneralAntillesAIM has replaced texting since I got the data plan.06:44
GeneralAntillesIt's not bad with the thumboard06:44
GeneralAntillesBetter considering my alternative at work is nothing.06:45
Milhouse2If I used AIM a lot, and I was in an office environment I'd get a BT keyboard06:45
lle2the reason I'd like a Good (TM) touchscreen + haptic is that I need my hw to be in one piece, no slide-out keyboards06:45
lle2or clam-shells or anything like that06:46
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GeneralAntillesRetail, so only on short breaks and no keyboards. ;)06:46
GeneralAntillesI really like it when I'm on campus.06:47
GeneralAntillesMuch lighter than schlupping a laptop around in 98°F weather with 132% humidity.06:47
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cozyuWhat is a picture~08:08
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GAN800Is there any way to change the zoom levels in Opera?08:11
`0660try the plus and minus buttons on the top of n80008:13
GAN800I want a 200% zoom level :D08:14
GAN800Doubled, so images wont look all wonky.08:15
`0660how about not closing your browser? :)08:15
`0660then you would only need to change the zoom level when you reboot it08:16
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GAN800Right now, the closest presets are 180 and 24008:17
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`0660try to file a bug about this08:17
GAN800Damn, I was hoping I could just play with some configs.08:18
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cozyu!nick PET08:51
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PETWhat is a picture!08:51
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konttoriJust put a blogpost on theme maker 1.0 release. Includes screenshots of NuvoBlack and NuvoPearl as well as a brief tutorial video on youtube to introduce people to theming.09:05
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mk8Hi to all ...09:43
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bencerhi all, which is the best way to install scratchbox and all the stuff @debian sid ? maybe the scratchbox script + maemo sdk script that you can find the ?10:04
bencerwhen i installed the gregale sdk i just added a repo to my sources.list ...10:04
kulveI would install SB from tarballs and then use the maemo script to install the targets10:05
kulveto any debian10:05
benceri'm looking at the scripts, still we don't have an amd64 version of sb ?10:08
kulveafaik, no10:08
kulvebut the i386 version should work ok10:09
bencerkulve: on native amd64 or inside a i386 chroot ?10:11
kulvesb is pretty self contained (or someting like that), so it shouldn't need a chroot10:13
kulveI'm running still 32bit linux, so I'm not 100% sure10:13
bencerhave commented the arch checking in the script, now downloading, thanks kulve10:14
`0660i thought sb is a just big hack around chroot :)10:15
benceri'm working on yet another system monitor desktop applet, backend finished, now gonna write the frontend10:17
bencerfor the hacker edition :)10:17
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AD-N770good morning11:15
kulveferenc: "We are moving the entire server from the XEN node to a brand new and powerful machine. There will be ups and downs during today's operation, but we hope that by the end of the day our performance problems will be history. Cross your fingers."11:15
melmothyeah, just receieved the mail :)11:15
kulveso, let's see do we ever see again ;)11:15
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Free_maN do you have binaries to CX3110x. n770 ?12:51
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Free_maNI do not arrive compil cx3110x :'(12:52
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Mikhodoes anybody have experience with anjuta?16:29
MikhoI'm having trouble configuring my project16:29
MikhoI created a new gtk+ project, and it created all the makefiles and stuff all right, but...16:29
Mikhowhen I deleted main.c and replaced with of my own, it still insists on finding main.c16:30
Mikhoeven though I can't find a reference to main.c anywhere in any of the makefiles, Makefile, or Makefile.am16:30
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Mikho*** No rule to make target 'main.c', needed by 'main.o'. Stop.16:31
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gomiamMikho: I suggest you use g++ instead of gcc16:35
gomiamit might get over the C/C++ dillemma.16:35
gomiamthen again, is there a rule por main.o ?16:36
kaatisMikho, add empty main.c which only says '#include ""' ? :)16:37
MikhoI wonder how to make anjuta use a custom compiler16:38
Mikhoit seems it has a *very* limited setting windows16:38
MikhoI wouldn't want to resort to a bubblegum solution, I'd like to know why the heck is it trying to find main.c if it isn't mentioned anywhere16:39
gomiamYou will _not_ disparage bubblegum! ;-)16:40
kaatisif the makefile contains rule to create .o from a .c file16:40
gomiamanyway, I think the problem is what kaatis says: there's a %.o: %.c rule or main.o: main.c rule messing around.16:41
Mikhobut I can't find the rule16:42
Mikhoand I don't know how to make it compile as c++16:42
Mikhohmm... am I supposed to turn on some CFLAGs or something to make it c++?16:47
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b0unc3Mikho: you need to change the compiler something like CC = gcc becomes CC = g++17:00
MikhoI found a reference to gcc in, but it doesn't help to change the setting, as the file is automatically generated by anjuta17:05
Mikhobut there's no mention of C/C++ choice in any of the or files17:06
Mikhothis is useless, maybe I should just forget about anjuta17:06
Mikhodoes anybody have good suggestions for C/C++ ide for developing software for 770?17:08
Mikhoalready tried eclipse+cde, and emacs won't do17:08
gla55wouldn't just about any ide do17:10
lle2no, only vim17:10
derfI'd be willing to accept emacs, but I would secretly be concerned for your soul.17:10
Mikhowell, that's what I thought at first, but after wasting two full days of work with anjuta I've changed my mind17:10
lle2kdevelop might be ok17:11
lle2I tried that a few years ago17:11
lle2using it with sb0.9.x17:11
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Mikhobut I'm using gnome17:12
lle2it's the only ide worth bothering with17:12
JussiPEclipse CDT 4.0 will be released in a few weeks or so.17:12
lle2does it support autoconfed projects properly?17:12
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JussiPI seem to recall so. Not sure though.17:13
JussiPCheck their web pages.17:13
lle2last time I looked at eclipse's C support it didn't know of anything else but its own pretty pathetic Makefile kludge17:13
JussiPIt supports custom makefiles. But I'm not an expert on that, Eclipse is slow as molasses on every Linux platform I have ever tried it on. Plus I think it crashed parsing my code (KDevelop at least did).17:15
lle2custom makefiles I can support equally well using bash17:16
lle2I would expect an IDE to at least pretend that it manages the source files to some extent17:16
JussiPBash does not do function name autocompletion, integrated debugging and all the other fancy stuff.17:16
lle2for C code eclipse is just an enormous text editor17:17
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gomiamermm Mikho, did you create the new file through Anjuta's file wizard?17:17
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lle2integrated debugging is overrated17:17
gomiamand you specified C++ Source file?17:17
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MikhoI created a gtk+ project which was in the C section, but checked the enable c++ support box17:18
gomiamI'm reading the user manual, and it looks like you need to specify the file type when using the "New File" Wizard.17:18
Mikhospecify the file type?17:18
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gomiam"Creating a New File"17:19
lle2people who insist on integrated debugging should use python or something like it17:19
gomiamon Chapter 317:19
gomiamlle2, what's the problem with integrated debugging? :-)17:20
gomiamnot that I usually take advantage of it (printf/cout/cerr are godsends most of the time)17:20
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Mikhowell, I'm not sure what that would help as it'd be still looking for main.c17:21
JussiPYes, because manuallyt typing breakpoints for mega long C++ function names is fun, fun, fun. Not to mention gdb's wonderful user friendliness. :)17:21
* gomiam ponders...17:21
lle2gomiam: nothing :) I just don't see the need, print* is enough17:21
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gomiamwon't Anjuta give different file extensions depending on the specified File Type?17:22
derfIntegrated debugging encourages people to fix symptoms, rather than actually think about the code and understand where the actual problem came from.17:22
gomiamderf: diagnostics encourage people to fix symptoms. Using integrated debugging or print* doesn't change the outcome. It's the developer's responsability to go beyond the symptoms.17:23
melmothwhat _is_ integrated debugging ?17:23
JussiPYes, and programming in any other language than assembler (or dip switches) encourages people to fix symptoms, rather than actually think about the code and understand where the actual problem came from.17:23
lle2JussiP: just put bkpt instruction to right place and all is well17:24
gomiammelmoth: being able to step through the code while it executes.17:24
melmothoh. like gdb ;) Can you do that with python ?17:24
melmoththis woudl be cool17:24
JussiPYes you can. See Python's debugger class.17:24
melmothsounds nice.17:25
Mikhowell, I created a new main.cxx source file with the wizard and tried to build, but it still lusts and hungers for main.c17:25
lle2sounds like a wizard17:25
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derfgomiam: There is a big difference between, "I will just watch every value change" and "I can only put so many printfs in, now where do I _think_ the program might be failing?"17:26
Mikhoand what is a 'po' directory?17:27
Mikhoimpossible to google17:27
melmothplace where to put translation file (gettext stuff) i guess17:27
lle2I think we can generalize: programming encourages people not to think.17:28
gomiamderf: is there? You can put enough printfs in to watch everything ;-) (I had to do that at times)17:28
Mikhoit seems something in the 'po' directory refers to main.c17:28
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Mikhonow what should I do with the po17:29
gomiampo... that sounds like localization17:29
Mikhohow do I get rid of it?17:29
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gomiamno idea, I know very little about Anjuta.17:30
derfgomiam: Sure, you _could_, but that's a lot of typing. Somewhere during all that typing, you might decide it's easier on your fingers to exercise your brain.17:31
gomiamderf, that's what copy&paste is for ;-D17:31
gomiamanyway, in the end it all comes down to the developer having enough brain to check what really matters.17:32
lle2that's not very often the case17:32
gomiamthat's true, too.17:33
derfJust don't write software with bugs. Problem solved.17:33
lle2better just run builds with make > /dev/null 2>&117:33
Mikhook... removed the main.c from Now where does it hallucinate the need for main.c from17:33
gomiamMikho: may I suggest you grep -R main.c *17:34
gomiamfrom the project's home directory.17:34
lle2I would suggest not using anjuta17:34
gomiamlle2: that's another option. It may make harder designing the interface, though.17:35
lle2what's wrong with glade (or whatever it is these days)?17:35
lle2if I remember that's what anjuta starts up anyway17:37
gomiamyes, it does.17:37
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gomiamanyway, since Mikho is using Anjuta, I find it better to try and help him learn use it and have everything at once. Your POV may differ.17:38
lle2yeah, it does. I'll go away ->17:38
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Mikhook, there's a hidden .deps directory in the src folder, that has two files: callbacks.Po and main.Po17:41
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loolErr did the List-id of maemo lists just change?17:41
Mikhomain.Po lists main.c17:41
gomiamyou created the project as a C project, right?17:42
Mikhonow how can I make the po whatever to completely and utterly forget about main.c, callbacks.c and other auto generated stuff17:42
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gomiamyou might need to either recreate it as a C++ project or find the Anjuta project file and tinker with it17:42
gomiamotherwise, Anjuta will stubbornly expect you to use C files mainly.17:43
MikhoI'd be very disappointed for not finding the setting that forces me to use main.c17:43
Mikhoeven though it has complex auto-generated makefile structure and all17:44
* gomiam checks Anjuta documentation17:44
dpb_lool: seems like it. seems to be now instead of
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gomiamthere is the project file format, it seems17:45
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gomiamyou would probably need to change the text in <_category>17:46
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gomiamso it suddenly acts as a C++ project.17:46
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gomiamthis might create even more problems than it solves, though.17:47
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gomiamback to study for me, though. I'm sorry I can't help you any more right now.17:49
gomiamgood luck17:49
Mikhook, thanks17:49
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Mikhohrmm.. it seems nothing updates the files in .deps directory18:01
Mikhothe directory exists there for the sole purpose of hindering my job18:01
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Mikhowell, I resolved the problem by changing main.c to main.cpp, but it left some unanswered questions18:18
Mikhoif I add source files, what generates the appropriate .deps file?18:19
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trevarthansomeone needs to write a new isearch applet that uses firefox search plugin syntax.18:39
trevarthancrying shame to duplicate all that work.18:40
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konttoriJust a check, but is supposed to be faster ?19:03
konttoriSeems to be crawling to me.19:03
lle2it's blazingly fast when accessed from within nokia.com19:04
konttoriOr from google cache ,)19:05
konttoriAnyway, it seems like it's creating the pages on-fly. Any decent content management system knows how to cache page content for static pages.19:06
konttoriOr semi static.19:06
konttoriHow midgard is so slow is just beyond me.19:06
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konttoriI actually develop a proprietary CM system as my paying job at the moment.19:07
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lle2maybe it tries to be somehow cute with ip addresses, and since all nokians probably go out through a couple of fixed proxies, we get fast response19:09
lle2either that or the hosting provider is shaping traffic19:09
lle2in any case I would consider changing career to an IBM solutions engineer if I'd be responsible for the technical implementation of maemo.org19:11
konttoriAhh.. seems faster now for me as well19:12
konttoriPerhaps there was something just slowing everything down for me.19:12
konttoriMy apologies!19:12
lle2you had thousands of bt downloads in the background?19:13
konttorinope. nothing.19:13
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_Shurik_hola fellow tableteers21:33
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_Shurik_anyone was able to connect ad-hoc XP to n800?21:34
_Shurik_via wifi21:34
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b0unc3_Shurik_: never tried, but sure it works..21:43
_Shurik_I agree :) I just haven't spent much time figuring it out21:43
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zyxulnaga_Shurik_: I have21:51
_Shurik_how did you make it broadcast itself as an access point so n800 can find it?21:52
zyxulnagano special setting21:52
zyxulnagajust set it as an ad-hoc network21:52
zyxulnagaand specify some ssid you want21:52
zyxulnagathe ip is a bit tricky21:53
zyxulnagawindows xp in automatic mode attempts to see if the other end has a dhcp server running21:53
zyxulnagaso I recommend you specify static ips21:53
_Shurik_in tablet you mean?21:53
zyxulnagain both tablet and windows xp21:53
zyxulnagato avoid the dhcp server check by windows xp21:53
zyxulnagaonce you associate it will attempt to see if the n800 has a dhcp server running21:54
zyxulnagawhich it doesnt21:54
zyxulnagaso you either have to provide one or use static ips in both ends21:54
_Shurik_hmm okay. How about connection via bluetooth? Would that be easier?21:54
zyxulnagathats similar21:55
_Shurik_there's only one place where I have no wireless connection and would like to share ethernet to tablet21:55
zyxulnagaI 've done it before with linux on one end though and n800 on the other21:55
_Shurik_I'm trying to avoid static IP if possible21:55
zyxulnagathen install a dhcp server21:55
zyxulnagaI have written my own21:55
zyxulnagain python21:55
_Shurik_I might need to research this, since I really don't use BT for anything else on laptop21:55
zyxulnagait just allocates an ip21:55
_Shurik_hmm, interesting21:55
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zyxulnagaI wish the wireless driver was open source21:56
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keesjins't bt plainfully slow?22:04
gla55for moving large files yes..22:05
gla55for browsing the internet.. no22:05
keesjand streaming audio (what I do the moost)22:05
gla55what kind of audio?22:05
gla55shoutcasts etc.. just fine22:06
zyxulnagait wasnt22:06
zyxulnagaI was transfering files accross the bt tunnel through sftp22:07
zyxulnagaat a decent speed22:07
keesjsending even small videos taken on my phone already takes ages22:07
keesjfrom phone to n80022:08
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xandoi want unlock my nokia can u help me ??? ;-)22:30
_Shurik_where did you lock your nokia?22:31
_Shurik_most of the drawers can be easily pryed open with little force22:32
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gla55beats me what unlocking 3310 and maemo have to do with each other22:38
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gla55it's so old anyways that you could unlock it with little googling..22:39
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konttoriukmp 1.2 released today.
konttoriI'll make a blog entry soon.22:48
konttori1.2 version includes Party (or queue) mode. Also supports cover.jpg files in mp3 folders. Will skip any folders titled: Maps. This improves living besides maemo mapper. Accidental clicks in cover view have been handled a bit better.22:49
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konttoriParty mode is way cool and easy way to make a playlist for the next hour ... four hours... or however long.22:51
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_Shurik_does it have an EQ?23:01
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konttoriAhh.. Blog is now online. Have a look at the new party mode (includes screenshots)23:14
_Shurik_Most of the times it's not required, but somtimes I'd like to have one so bad.23:14
konttoriI hear you. I know the feeling.23:14
konttoriBut, alas, it's not on my roadmap for a long time. Sorry to disappoint you, there are just too many more important features to be made.23:15
_Shurik_in the car it's easier, you can do some equalizing via stereo23:15
_Shurik_but in headphones...23:15
konttoriyeah. I hope Nokia will include EQ in the future firmware.23:15
_Shurik_well that's fine, I will check your new release tonight23:15
konttoriCool. Have you used 1.1?23:15
_Shurik_not yet, I just got n800 last week. Haven't settled in yet!23:16
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konttoriHere is a short introduction video on the ukmp 1.0:
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mk8Hi to all23:23
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konttoriThe Nokia 8600 Luna uses a single micro-USB port for a streamlined design free of extraneous indentations; it allows owners to streamline common activities - like charging, audio and data connectivity - into a single connection. Quad-band GSM support also allows owners to easily stay connected while they are on the road, while the large, bright display is perfect for sharing images captured with the 2 megapixel camera.23:32
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konttoriI hope N900 will also support charging from USB23:32
_Shurik_what N900?? :) I just got N80023:34
edistarheey, does anyone know if there is a good math program that has some funktions of a graphical calculator like for example the TI voyage 200?23:34
_Shurik_hmm, that's an interesting concept23:35
_Shurik_TI emulator23:35
konttoriIt's a speculative name for the next internettablet  ;)23:35
konttorithere was ti emu before.23:35
_Shurik_well, I'd think they would either drop the "N" and call it 900 or use some other letter, preferably cyrillics23:35
_Shurik_like ß90023:35
konttoriI don't know if it works on the latest firmware23:35
Mikhodoes anybody know how could I get to use makedepend inside scratchbox?23:35
edistarti emu emulates?23:35
konttoriIndeed. Or just go for a plaing chinese name23:35
MikhoI should install xutils-dev package, but where is it?23:36
edistaris it fast?23:36
_Shurik_no, russians were involved in the first 2 designes23:36
lle2chinese have also been involved in the first two23:37
lle2so that's kinda moot point23:37
lle2as well as around 30+ other different nationalities23:37
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lle2I'm convinced there are a few extra terrestrials as well23:39
_Shurik_but their codenames were Sputnik and Soyuz23:39
_Shurik_so looks like us, Russians, had an upper hand there :-D23:39
lle2nope, those were picked by very, very finnish people living in a cold, dark city called Oulu23:40
lle2and you've got only one of them right23:40
_Shurik_and as I was almost tasting a victory..23:40
_Shurik_that's what says thoug23:41
_Shurik_Device Codenames23:41
_Shurik_    * Soyuz: Codename that was apparently used for the N800. Reported here, see also photos.23:41
_Shurik_    * Sputnik: Codename for N770 device (also SU-18) here here23:41
lle2that's incorrect23:41
lle2sputnik part is right23:42
_Shurik_well, now I have 3 favorite things that came from Finland: Finland vodka, Tupu Tapu and N80023:43
_Shurik_what was the 770? Gagarin?23:43
lle2770 = sputnik23:43
lle2n800 = gagarin23:43
_Shurik_ah, okay23:43
_Shurik_either way23:43
_Shurik_can't wait for N900 "Stalin"23:44
lle2heh ;)23:44
_Shurik_with HD mind reader23:44
Mikhonow is it possible to actually browse the maemo scratchbox repositories?23:44
lle2maemo scratchbox repos?23:45
MikhoI need to find the correct package to install to make makedepend work23:45
Mikhoinside scratchbox23:45
lle2hmm, can't you just build it using host-gcc inside sbox?23:45
lle2or better yet use sb2 :)23:46
_Shurik_scratch box 2?23:46
Mikhoin normal linux environment, if I'm missing a tool, it's easy to just enter it in the package manager search and just install packgages23:47
Mikhoinside scratchbox even the tab-completion in apt-get install doesn't work23:47
lle2with sb2 that's all you need to do, it uses your host's binaries23:47
Mikhothis sb2... does it work?23:48
lle2it may have some rough edges though, but they only help build character23:48
lle2I've used it to build some stuff23:49
lle2kdrive xserver doesn't build, some crap with libtool23:49
MikhoI've already spent quite much time to make the plain scratchbox work23:49
lle2but quite a few things seem to build23:49
lle2sb2 is simple to install, just take a look at the readme, link is on the fdo page23:50
lle2it will hopefully make it to debian/unstable soon23:50
lle2so people can just apt-get install scratchbox223:51
Mikhobut isn't scratchbox supposed to be an independent environment than my host?23:51
lle2yeah, sb1 is that way, sb2 is different23:51
lle2way smaller23:52
lle2about 1/2000th of sb1's size23:52
edistarcan't find tiemu for the 770..23:52
edistarcan someone help?23:52
Mikhoso if I install this sb2, I could live happily with my 770 forever?23:53
lle2no idea :)23:53
lle2it's work in progress23:53
lle2I'll gladly help if you hit issues23:53
_Shurik_I think its time for n80023:53
lle2I personally refuse to touch sb123:54
lle2but obviously it is the official maemo build environment, for now23:54
MikhoI'm just trying to install the hello_world application from the tutorial to my 770. For that, I need to make a debian package out of it. For that, I need to create a makefile with correctly set dependencies. And for that, I need makedepend, and preferably without having to write paths like /scratchbox/users/mipoloja/targets/ARMEL etc into the makefile23:55
lle2can't you use gcc -E -M or some such to generate the dependencies?23:56
Mikhomaybe I should try sb2 next23:56
Mikhono idea, I'm a newbie23:56
lle2I think you can23:57
Mikhotried to follow a makefile tutorial23:57
lle2try to avoid makedepend23:57
Mikhoso what does -E -M do?23:57
lle2spits out the same stuff23:57
Mikhoit's a bit difficult to man gcc, as it has zillions of options23:57
lle2well, try man gcc, /-M, hit 'n' a couple of times23:58
Mikhohmm if this -E -M works I'd be delighted23:58

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