IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2007-02-10

ocnarfid8Yup, I kept it.  How long does it last before it gets crappy?00:00
* [mbm] just replaced the factory screen protector with another00:00
[mbm]ocnarfid8: getsscratched up and crappy pretty quick00:00
ocnarfid8I carry a lot of crap in my pockets usually if I go out without a bag.00:00
[mbm]on mine you could turn it off and see the position of every key on the onscreen keyboard00:01
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dolfungreetings maemonauts00:02
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[mbm]salutations maemo nut?00:02
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dolfunworks too.00:04
dolfunfreenx kicks so much butt00:05
arjsorry for my ignorance, but what does it do that is so great? :)00:08
ocnarfid8do you guys type best with the stylus, fingers, or hand writing rec?00:08
Disconnectocnarfid8: i use my stowaway :)00:08
Tak|workthumbs for me00:08
ocnarfid8Disconnect: some little guy is hiding out in your battery case??00:09
garrettI prefer thumbs00:09
AndyCapDisconnect: how's the battery on that?00:09
Disconnectruns forever00:09
AndyCapthumbs is nice. but my thumbs are slightly too big. :-P00:09
dolfunarj, much faster than vnc.  much faster than native display for qemu-based virtual machines00:09
dolfunstowaway ++00:10
[mbm]yay, my sd cards finally came, never mind the fact that I ordered them over a week and a half ago and used priority shipping :/00:10
konfoombm what did u get00:10
garrettAndyCap: yeah, my thumbs are also big00:10
garrettAndyCap: I've gotten used to it a bit and make less mistakes now00:11
[mbm]konfoo: two transcend 4G cards off amazon00:12
[mbm]they're selling for about $50 each00:13
ocnarfid8Is there an iPhone skin for the N800?  heh00:13
konfoo150x non-sdhc?00:13
[mbm]konfoo: yeah00:13
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konfoo[mbm]: i have one here, doesn't work. curious to know if yours does..00:13
Yamazaki-kunDisconnect: Do you have the Sierra or the other one?00:14
tigertlater, sleep time00:14
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[mbm]konfoo: 3.83G available .. looks like it worked00:17
garrett[mbm]: yay!00:18
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* garrett wonders what the best portable bt keyboard is00:18
[mbm]dunno, need one of those too00:18
garrettthis could be a really nice laptop replacement for some uses00:18
glas5the normal stowaway is nice00:18
glas5i'd really take the sierra.. for the extra row00:18
[mbm]garrett: yeah, I don't carry my laptop around as much as I used to00:19
garrett[mbm]: I'm thinking about getting a pocket camera too00:19
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garrettthat way I can accessorize with whatever I'm doing and cut down on the bulk00:19
garrettright now, camera + laptop + ipod requires two huge and heavy backpacks00:20
[mbm]I've got a cannon sd600 .. not a great camera but it works00:20
Guardianis there something planned for 3d acceleration on the n800 ?00:20
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[mbm]just one of the point and shoot00:20
garrettso w/ a pocket camera + n800, I'm more portable00:20
Guardianor is it definitely something that we can't expect00:20
garrettor pocket camera + laptop or full camera + n80000:21
garrettdepending on what the activities are00:21
[mbm]and then retry once you notice how blurry the pictures are because you didn't hold still for 5 seconds00:21
acidborgis it normal that the N800 video player crashes so often?00:21
Tak|workacidborg: I'm experiencing that too00:21
garrett[mbm]: I was thinking about the Canon SD80000:21
garrettit has IS and goes wider than most other pocket cameras00:22
acidborgIt always crashes while moving the searching slider00:22
Tak|workheh, crashes for me just playing video00:22
Yamazaki-kunI got the Sierra... wondering if I should've gone with the slim one.00:22
acidborgTak|work: It crashes playing video too :-(00:23
Yamazaki-kunIt will fit in a jacket pocket, but will only fit in my pants pocket because I wear 5.11.00:23
[mbm]garrett: been putting mine in continuous shot mode and taking at least 5 pictures per shot while trying to hold the damn thing stable .. usually end up with one decent picture00:23
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garrett[mbm]: well, IS would fix that issue with special hardware to stablize things for ya00:24
garretthence the SD700 or SD80000:24
[mbm]also sucks in low light00:25
Yamazaki-kungarrett: Two backpacks? I carry a 12" PBG4, an N70s, and three lenses (none pro-grade though) in one backpack.00:25
garrettand since the SD800 goes wider and has improved intelligence over the SD700, then that's good00:25
garrettYamazaki-kun: two big backpacks00:25
* [mbm] also somewhat annoyed that the flash always seems to turn itself on00:26
[mbm]takes crappy pictures with flash00:26
garrettI have a MBP and accessories in one, a Canon 30D with a 70-200 2.8L/IS, Sigma 12-24, a Canon 550EX flash, a Canon 28-135 IS prosumer lens, and a Canon 50/1.800:26
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garrettin the other00:26
garrettthe 28-135 is a little bit of overkill; I usually don't need that range much00:27
garrettwith the other glass in the bag00:27
garrettbut it has come in handy for some trips, like for Delicate Arch in Utah00:27
garrettjust couldn't do enough foot zooming to make things useful from some spots (dropoffs on both sides)00:27
garrettand the 50 was a bit off00:27
Yamazaki-kunThe 70-200 explains some of that volume requirement.00:27
garrettyes, much00:27
garrettthat and the flash add up to a lot00:28
* Yamazaki-kun just has a Tokina 12-24, Sigma 30, and Nikon 18-70.00:28
Yamazaki-kunand a SB-600.00:28
garrettthe 70-200 2.8L IS is very, very large and heavy -- almost solid metal and glass it seems00:28
Yamazaki-kunI may have to rent the Nikon 200-400 bazooka at the end of next month -- just got funding approval for SANS, and Su Lin is worth a trip to the zoo.00:29
ocnarfid8I had a SD700 I hated it, sold it.00:29
hubgarrett: and I was surprised the day I could fit in my bab mounted on camera with all the other crap I had00:30
ocnarfid8I'm a semi-prof photography, I mostly use a D20000:30
garrettocnarfid8: really?00:30
ocnarfid8garrett: Yup, was terrible in my opinion.00:30
garrettwhat is a GOOD pocket camera?00:30
hub70-200 definitely on my shopping list00:30
ocnarfid8Fuji 31fd00:30
garrettI'd like raw if possible00:30
garrettand some manual controls00:30
hubgarrett: in P&S? no chance00:30
ocnarfid8I researched them all after I eold the SD700 (I like the idea of always having a camera with me)00:30
garretthub: some p&s has raw00:31
hubgarrett: even the G series no longer have RAW with canon00:31
ocnarfid8The fuji 31fd looked like the best -- manual controls.00:31
garrettaw man00:31
garrettthat sucks00:31
ocnarfid8garrett: -- best resource.00:31
hubF31 is good at 3200 ISO00:31
hubor 1600ISO00:31
garrettyeah, I looked at dpreview00:31
garrettI look at it often00:31
hubtoo bad it use crap xD00:31
ocnarfid8There is a f40 coming out in march but it doesn't have manual controls.00:31
* hub realize he is not on #photogeeks00:31
* konfoo pets minolta dimage00:32
* hub hugs his 20D00:32
* hub need more glass00:32
[mbm]hub: fun thing about irc channels, they almost never talk about the stuff the channel was intended for00:32
* ocnarfid8 needs more warmth, its 50 deg in my apt.00:32
hub[mbm]: the thing is that I really thought I was there given that garrett is there too00:33
hub[mbm]: I don't mind00:33
konfoo[mbm]: did u try create say 128m swap on that 4g card00:33
Yamazaki-kunhub: If we were on #photogeeks we'd be talking about pocket-sized devices running Linux or something.00:33
garrettI'm in 1/2 the irc channels in existance00:33
garrettor so it seems often00:33
[mbm]konfoo: no, but I copied 2G of crap onto it without error00:33
hubYamazaki-kun: suggesting that. thanks00:33
garrettand I'm usually idling in every one00:33
konfoo[mbm]: mine died when i tried adding swap..00:34
hubgarrett: yeah00:34
[mbm]konfoo: well, swap on a flash card is a good way to kill a card00:34
konfoocards are cheap00:34
[mbm]flash has limited write cycles and deosn't like being continuously rewritten00:35
konfoosee above ^00:35
[mbm]yeah I know00:35
[mbm]now I'd like to see you try that with the builtin flash ;)00:35
[mbm]I like jffs2 because it's smart enough to rotate files for wear leveling00:36
Veggenhmmf. another scummvm do I punch? ;)00:36
Tak|worksupposedly it's smart enough to level the wear for swap too00:37
konfooVeggen: hold the n800 at almost arm's length..00:37
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[mbm]Veggen: umm you tap the screen to mouse click, and you use the dpad for other button presses00:37
Tak|workwhat game?00:37
VeggenTak: Indiana Jones.00:37
VeggenJust going through it just to get the hang of it (with cheats)00:38
Tak|workdpad center, maybe?00:38
Tak|workyou can always avoid punching in IJ if you choose00:38
[mbm]must be last crusade00:38
Veggenyah, last crusade.00:39
Tak|workoh - not sure about that one, actually00:39
Tak|workI was thinking of fate of atlantis00:39
[mbm]Tak|work: works the same00:39
Tak|workah, ok00:39
[mbm]guard stops you and asks some stupid question00:39
[mbm]and if you pick wrong you have to fight00:39
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* [mbm] used to have all the questions memorized00:39
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[mbm]"how appropritate, you fight like a cow!" ;)00:40
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Veggenmbm:well, there's this place where I'm supposed to give the bully lots of beer to make him weak, then punch him.00:41
Veggenbut I can't punch ;)00:41
[mbm]hmm I should load scummvm again00:41
[mbm]btw monkey's island 3 looks killer on the tiny screen00:41
Yamazaki-kunWouldn't happen to have anyone around here from San Diego area?00:42
Veggenmbm: in help, it says to use number keys to punch. but no such thing, right?00:43
[mbm]Veggen: try all the buttons00:44
VeggenI did :)00:44
[mbm]that sucks00:44
Tak|workno click or click/hold?00:44
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[mbm]tht game was before that00:45
[mbm]mi3 you need to click and hold00:45
garrett[mbm]: hmm, I should try Monkey Island on the device00:46
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[mbm]frame rate dropped a little when the camera pans across but still perfectly playable00:47
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[mbm]and the tiny screen with the high dpi made the graphics look awsome00:48
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ocnarfid8Is there an app that lets you take pictures with the camera on the N800?00:51
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[mbm]no, probably should be00:52
[mbm]even though the camera sucks00:53
ocnarfid8yea?  I haven't used it yet.  (Just got the N800 last night)00:53
[mbm]well, camera is only 640x480 and gets all grainy unless you're in a bright environment00:53
ocnarfid8i'm used to crappy camera phones, i have a treo600.00:54
ocnarfid8I don't use them basically. :)00:54
Tak|workso much potential software, so little time :-(00:54
ocnarfid8sleep is optional00:54
Tak|workyeah, but I don't want to be a zombie until after I'm dead00:55
[mbm]I keep waiting for my future self to come back and deliver the time machine00:56
ocnarfid8Bring you a N12000?00:56
Tak|workhah, I know I'm never going to invent a time machine, because I would have gone back and changed some major parts of my life already00:56
ocnarfid8But how do you know you already knew about them and wanted to let yourself through them?00:57
[mbm]Tak|work: I figure that eventually you'll be able to order one off amazon and I'll just have it shipped into the past00:57
ocnarfid8wonder what the tracking information would look like for that.00:57
[mbm]ocnarfid8: heh, and I thought priority shipping was expensive00:58
[mbm]delivering it before it was ordered has to cost a fortune00:58
ocnarfid8Priority last centry.00:58
konfooi am tempted to try one of these adata 8gb cards from newegg01:01
konfooanyone tried them?01:01
Tak|workI'm *very* tempted to order two of them01:01
konfooTak: same here01:02
matt_cPlease post to the wiki with your results :)01:02
glas5uhh. if they work they make n800 very tempting01:02
konfoohaha guinea pig time eh01:02
Tak|workyeah, there was a /. article about a potential flash-based ipod, and people were like, "Imagine a flash device that has up to 32G!!!"01:03
konfoowhen are those 16gb sdhc cards due for release?01:03
[mbm]I can say that the 4G transcnd cards off amazon work great, but I don't much care for the shipper (they sent me 2G cards and I had to bitch)01:03
Yamazaki-kunThe camera should be good for one thing... with all the thermal noise, it would make an excellent seed for the PRNG.01:04
Tak|workooo, good point01:04
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[mbm]hmm .. that camera applet just spiked the load to 3.0 before locking the device and causing a watchdog reboot01:13
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[mbm]hmm .. just occured to me that I could raid stripe the sd cards for better performance01:17
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shackanis it possible to use the arrow buttons to scroll one page at the time in the browser?01:23
[mbm]up and down on the dpad will either page up/down or hop between links if a page contains multiple links01:23
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shackanright, I want to pgdown-pgup, not jump from a link to another01:24
shackan(which is what it does now)01:24
[mbm]hold down the buttons01:25
[mbm]scrolls somewhat slowly but doesn't stop on hyperlinks01:25
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shackanso, no way to just go down a page?01:26
[mbm]not that I know of01:26
shackanfrack :\01:26
[mbm]with the pen you can tap the darker areas of the scrollbar01:28
shackanyup, but it means using both hands just to read01:29
[mbm]the stand makes a nice palm strap01:31
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garrettI usually read using fbreader; it does pages01:38
garrettand it supports HTML too01:38
garrettbut anyway, g'nite01:38
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disqfinally released maemopad+ 0.25, with pressure support and more improvements/bugfixes02:06
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* gpd takes delivery of Zune - won in a prize draw... 02:38
|tbb|gpd congrats02:39
gpdya -- also an Intel Bad Axe 2 MoBo :)02:39
gpdshame I have no use for either --- ebay here we come02:39
gpdI have no clue about the Zune -- but i presume it can't even do USB mode -- media player only02:40
glas5zune has special software02:41
gpdactually - it seems it does appear in My Computer for copying02:41
glas5afaik it doesn't do the wmp media player mode at all...02:42
gpdI wonder if it could ever be useful as HDD for the N80002:42
gpdnah -- i should just sell it -- evil little thing02:42
glas5you'd need a power source probably02:43
glas5yeah if you get a good price out of it..02:43
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gpdglas5: what would you consider a good price: $200 ?02:43
glas5well, its what? 250-260 in shop?02:44
glas5i'd consider 200 to be a good price02:44
glas5240 in amazon...  i wouldn't buy it used for 200 even if i for some strange reason wanted a zune :p02:45
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gpdi agree - but this was free and i need to decide if i should open and play - or just sell asap _ latter is prefered for now. enough toys in the last weeks!02:46
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jeepershey... anyone know the upper limit for virtual memory from an sd card?03:11
jeeperscan i use an entire 1gb card?03:11
desrtyou'd be a little bit crazy to03:11
maddlerjeepers: having 128MB swap is more than enough IMHO03:13
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maddlerit was enough on 770... and more than enough on N80003:13
maddlerbtw time to hit the bed here...03:13
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jeepersCif anyone answered that as i was being psychotic please say it again03:16
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xxRobotWho here is on their tablet right now03:50
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SulisxxRobot: you?04:05
xxRobotI am on my n80004:12
xxRobotPlenty of idling here :)04:13
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gpdgreeetings from a random mall cafe05:08
Sulishi, random mall cafe!05:09
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srihi all05:37
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TakFor those of you looking for an unencumbered NES game:
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elpasoGood morning!10:07
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JoseHi, when i try to open a real audio link in a web, media player returns anteseror "file format not supported"11:17
JoseDoes anyone have similar problem?11:18
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elpasohi kees11:36
keesjyou want to test tuxpaint?11:36
keesjwhat on what os?11:36
elpason770 i on repair11:37
elpasoanother small question, if I want to develop for both N770 and N800 should I have two different scratchbox installed?11:38
keesjno , with the 2.2 release I shoud be possible to hava them all in one sbox11:38
keesjI am creating a qemu based img to develop on maemo, I plan to add the 4 targets in there11:39
keesjit is based on dsl (DammSmallLinux)11:39
elpasogreat!! I hope it will be soon ready.11:39
elpasobora, scirocco, mistral ... Things are getting very windy out there ;)11:40
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keesjelpaso: dio o11:42
keesjelpaso: dio oCatalogue name xmoto_testing11:42
keesjweb address
keesjDistribution bora11:42
keesjsorry that was my kid11:42
keesjit is still uploading but can you try added this repository to your n880?11:43
keesjdid you already have a bora sdl up and running?11:44
keesjdo you run windows or linux by default?11:44
elpasoStill suck to sb IT200611:45
elpasoRun linux11:45
elpasoubuntu dapper11:45
elpasoBAck in a minute, go to take the N80011:45
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elpasoI have a problem:11:51
elpaso  tuxpaint11:51
elpasoInstall these packages without verification [y/N]?11:51
elpasoE: Some packages could not be authenticated11:51
elpasoEven if I press Y or y it fails :(11:51
elpasoI've seen it before...11:52
elpasoMaybe some locale issue?11:52
elpasoit_IT here11:52
elpasoWill try with s/S11:52
keesjdo you have the maemo repository in your apt source list?11:52
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elpasoOk, works with "s"11:53
elpasoDid you apply my patches?11:53
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keesjI don't think so11:55
elpasoIt works, but locales are not there...11:56
elpasoIt's in english11:56
elpasoSaving works fine11:56
keesjin the right directory?11:56
elpasoHmm... let me check.11:57
elpasoMy setup was to save in the mmc1/tuxpaint11:57
keesjbut now with two mmc's I don't know what a good default is11:58
elpasoIt's better since in .tuxpaint you cannot see them from the filemanager11:58
keesjok where are you patches , ?11:59
elpasoNot patches, sorry, but are a just a few lines, I will try to get them11:59
keesjdon't worry can you put that in the mud bugtracker?12:00
elpasoyes, address?12:00
keesjI am bzipping the qemu image so you can try12:00
elpasoin tuxpaint.c12:01
elpaso#define VIDEO_BPP 15 // saves memory12:01
elpaso  //  ABP:12:01
elpaso  WINDOW_HEIGHT = 480;12:01
elpaso  WINDOW_WIDTH = 800;12:01
elpasoSome tweaks in tuxpaint.conf12:02
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keesjthe 800x480 and other tweaks are already in the upstream tuxpaint if I compile it with the N700 flag12:02
elpasoVIDEO_BPP 15 ??12:03
elpasoWe should decide where the saved images go...12:04
keesjperhaps  small install popup asking?12:04
elpasoYes, good idea12:04
elpasoDefault to /home/user/MyDocs/.images/tuxpaint12:05
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elpasoSo the user can see them in the filemanager12:05
elpasoJust need some help in setting up mud...12:05
keesjelpaso: I will help12:05
elpasoThanks :)12:06
elpasoI would like to port some more libs and apps...12:06
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keesjhmmm the bzip is 800MB12:11
elpasodid you choose qcow ?12:12
keesjno just raw for the moment12:12
elpasoI think qcow is smaller...12:13
keesjthere is only 1 gig of data on the cdrom12:13
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keesjI need to go , I will try do to some more later today12:15
elpasoOk, hear you soon12:16
keesjmud shoud also work on the it2006 , just reading should be enough to get you started12:16
elpasoOk, I will try...12:16
koenfor 770 users/developers:
* pahartik wonders about what has been changed between Maemo 2.1 and Maemo 2.212:26
jonekhi, where do I get the maemo gpg keys for the bora repos?12:30
joneksome of the apps in application catalog  are not installable on the n800. are this known issues?12:33
jonek(apps for OS2007 I should say)12:34
pahartikinz: After upgrading to Maemo 2.2 firmware, I installed "osso-xterm 0.13.mh19" (had "osso-xterm 0.13.mh13" before)... Thank you for nice additional features12:42
maddlermorning all12:44
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jtrapahartik: hey, there are other features for xterm too :)  I expect first working version by end of weekend13:01
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maddlersbaturzio: loha kahua!13:10
sbaturziomaddler: Ciao13:11
pahartikjtra: Very good13:12
sbaturziomaddler: about your source.list: on an N800 we can install "mistral" packages without fear?13:12
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zuhNot without fear, but usually they tend to work... ;)13:12
maddlersbaturzio: at least I did and had no problems...13:12
maddlertil now :)13:12
maddlerdamn... :)13:12
sbaturziomaddler: :-)  ok, but I start to think we need a central repository for all these packages, something like Debian unstable13:13
sbaturzioanyway I'll try to update my sources.list according your list13:13
maddlersbaturzio: that would be nice... but some QA would be needed then...13:18
maddlerbut overall I'd agree with you...13:18
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xankoen, are you going to work on the pixops patch?13:45
pahartikDoes anyone here know if Maemo 2.2 does have newer Bluetooth firmware/driver than Maemo 2.113:45
koenxan: I don't really know C, I just made it apply to 2.10.x13:45
xankoen, I've been reading the patch and it seems to be a pretty straightforward conversion13:46
xankoen, I can make it, but won't be able to test anything until monday13:46
koenxan: anything would be great :)13:46
xanI was already on CC in the bug, but totally forgot about it13:46
xanI suck :)13:46
koennah, the gtk+ dudes sucks for letting that patch rot for over 4 years13:47
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jonekis it possible to call a gaim user on a pc from the voip apps on the internet tablets?14:04
zuhkoen: I'd remind that the patch was submitted when ARM wasn't in everyones pocket yet, and to GTK+ devs it would have sounded like "hey, I have this queer hw here and this patch works wonders for it" and since there's nothing to back it up in the bug, nor a way to test it for the devs... You just don't take a working solution and patch it for minority without a solid proof ;) And once a bug drops off the radar, they tend to stay that way.14:10
zuhUntil people who care dig it up again14:11
koenzuh: you're forgetting that people like cworth, keithp and jg did have arm in their pockets long before that patch14:15
keesjkoen: you don't know c?14:18
koenkeesj: according to the university I know C, C++ and java well, but I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag14:18
keesj:p you just don't like it then ?14:19
keesjanybody wants to try the bora qemu sdk image?14:19
keesjmy  elpaso tester is gone , it's a 800MB image to be downloaded from my slow link14:20
koenkeesj: I never bothered to get good at it, and I continue to be too stupid to get all the & and * pointer stuff right the first try14:20
keesjyes , that is quite hard. I can't either but I understand the concept so I say that I can code14:22
keesjSo you are probabely a better coder with a less big mouth :p14:22
melmothI m looking for a python example of osso rpc call with arguments.14:23
melmothI can send a rpc call for a remote app and define a callback that is called.But i do not understand how to send some arguments to the remote app14:24
melmothi try to add a tuple such as ("a","b") as the last and 5th arg of rpc_runs, but that does not seem to do the trick14:25
melmothany idea appreciated14:25
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tigertsome tweaks to test if you want14:34
tigert(you need hildon-theme-cacher from the parent directory)14:34
tigertand its for N800 only for now14:34
tigertand no, no wallpaper yet14:35
Fatalhow about a screenshot for us non n800 owners? :D14:35
Fataloh, the plankton in parent is for 770?14:36
Fatalah, no14:36
tigertno no14:39
tigertthis is just a small update14:39
tigertsome small tweaks14:39
tigertit looks largely the same14:39
tigertI'll commit the template, you can see there in a moment14:39
nomistigert: pity I cannot test it for a while now. But I appreciate it  :)14:40
Fataltigert: oh well, i haven't seen the plankton theme at all14:42
Fataltigert: so if it's n800 only, please let me know so i can stop searching :D14:43
tigertits for now only for N80014:43
tigertwell, it is easy to port to 77014:44
tigertany volunteers? :)14:44
tigertjust a few tweaks really14:44
Fatalright, so I'll repeat my original question14:44
Fatalhow about a screenshot for us non n800 owners? :D14:44
tkotigert, you need to put it in some repository so that one can only click 'check for updates' in application manager rather than typing long urls :)14:44
tigerttko: yea14:44
tigertI was thinking of a garage project14:44
tigertwill look into that14:44
AkatemikMmh, any tips howto compile stuff using other python than the 2.3 that is integral to scratchbox?14:44
xantigert, I like the new buttons better :)14:45
Fataltigert: ty14:45
AkatemikI'm trying to compile tinymail for 2.5, but it doesn't seem to care about my modifications to autoconf's files14:45
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tigertok, its in svn too I hope14:46
tkohmm, we need to do some hack for themes so that when you update the plankton theme it gets automatically reapplied14:48
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tkonew dialog buttons look a bit weird.. focused and insensitive buttons are much taller than normal unfocused buttons14:49
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tkoumm, but not for all buttons14:50
tkotry focusing the dialog buttons in Home/Select applets14:50
tkoor Set background image dialog14:51
xanyeah, they look odd14:52
xanugh, wait14:52
xanI know this bug :S14:52
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xanlooks like the same thing that happened in the about dialog14:52
xanat least in the background dialog case14:53
tkoI rebooted and it fixed itself :-]14:53
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tkosince you know the bug, when are you going to fix it? :)14:54
xanin theory I did already14:54
xanbut if it fixes with a reboot I guess it can't be the same thing14:54
xanI blame michael and theme switching14:54
kjetilhohi guys, what's the recommended software for downloading podcasts on the 770?14:56
xanI use the rss reader myself...14:57
xanbut I recall there are other projects, check in garage14:57
kjetilhoxan: oh, so it handles sound as well?14:58
xanwell, it warns you when there are "media files" in the feed, so you can click and download/listen14:59
kjetilhooh, I'd like it to be more automatic than that.  ideally it should refill my cache of unlistened audio whenever I'm on WLAN :-)15:00
tigerttko: reboot15:00
tigerttko: you have a mix of old and new bitmaps if you have that15:00
tigertit should have all buttons the same size now15:00
xankjetilho, yeah, it's not really optimized for podcasts15:00
tigertyep. it is a bug with the theme not really updating itself when you switch15:00
tigertbut I think the dither trick helped a lot with the banding, or what do you think?15:01
xanyeah, it did15:01
tigertthe one big color step is intentional of course15:01
tigertit is supposed to look like "glossy" thing15:01
tigertbut the others are not :)15:01
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nomistigert: do you know  btw.?15:02
xantigert, I think the reflect is too straight maybe? some kind of curve would be nice15:02
tigertxan: perhaps15:02
tigertneed to study15:02
tigertits harder to do in inkscape :)15:03
tigertand it is already very slow to draw this template :)15:03
tigertthe drop shadows make inkscape crawl :(15:03
nomistigert: I think they also have software to simulate all kinds of optics effects.15:04
tigertinteresting stuff15:04
tigertlinked to there from the flickr page15:04
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nomistigert: you're welcome. And at some point I want to see that kind of effect myself  :)15:05
tigertthe speculative halo stuff on other planets is interestin too15:05
tigertare you going to LGM btw?15:05
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nomistigert: I want to.15:06
* tigert tries it in wine15:06
nomis(and I think it should be possible although may probably will be crowded)15:07
tigertI try the same15:07
tigertwe'll see15:07
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MDKtko: the theme is in sardine repo15:09
MDKtko: so instead of creating yet-one-more-repository make we should focus on getting sardine into usable state15:09
tigertit works beautifully in wine15:09
tigertMDK: agreed too15:09
tigertMDK: perhaps maintain the stable branch in garage though?15:09
MDKwell, we can15:10
tigertsince sardine will break the layout if the theme is modified15:10
MDKapps will brake15:10
MDKwe need sardine-stable15:10
tigertok. got to run15:11
tigertlet me know if the theme eats your cat or something15:11
tkoMDK, I don't want sardine on my stable device15:11
MDKthis is really getting annoying. We invent X different systems, only to discover that a standard distribution-bundling (stable/unstable) system is the best15:11
MDKtko: yes, true. Because sardine is broken.15:11
MDKwe should have sardine stable/unstable/experimental15:12
tkoI wouldn't know, I only play with experimental :)15:12
MDKand instread of grarage extras, stuff should go into sardine stable15:12
tigertMDK: yeah15:13
tigertMDK: time to start making a good plan and advocating it15:13
tigertMDK: we just need to make some good plan and start promoting it. I think as long as there is no clear direction, everyone thinks their own ideas15:13
tigertwhich all could work15:13
tigertbut not at the same time15:13
tkowhen we have the 'extras' as component, I think the difference would be fairly small15:13
tigertwhih is the problem15:14
tkobut we really need to write down the plan and enforce it some time to get things rolling15:14
MDKtko: let's fast-forward a little bit into future15:15
MDKlet's say I've got a hildon-1 release15:15
MDKthat's totally api-compatible with the past hildon-115:15
MDKjust some bugfixes. A stable release.15:15
MDKhow can I get this package to people's devices?15:16
tigert"as a flashable image!!!!111"15:16
tkojust a side note, it has better be totally api compatible or someone is going to kick you :)15:16
MDKif we had sardine stable, I could put it there15:16
MDKand people would silently upgrade15:16
MDKthe sardine stable would be totally low-traffic well-tested stuff15:17
MDKright now, if I put it into unstable, it'll get pulled with a lot of other crap15:17
tkowell, we could do package upgrades, but it's a can of worms to define what gets uploaded there15:17
MDKthat'll, more or less, make your device a 'developers device'15:17
MDKread = lots of stuff broken15:17
keesjMDK: I don't know where you get the "stable/unstable" idea from , but the bigest problem you currently have with the IT are the different releases,15:17
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kulvewasn't the herring supposed to be stable sardine?15:18
MDKtko: yes. We don't have to start with full support for 'stable'15:18
MDKI mean, it doesn't need to be (at first) official in any way15:19
tigertkulve: patience, patience... we will get it right one of these days!15:19
MDKofficial - understood as nokia providing support for it15:19
MDKkeesj: different releases?15:19
MDKtko: we could start with just library upgrades15:20
MDKa place to push updated gtk, hildon, themes and some other stuff we tightly control15:20
MDKlater we could start expanding it slowly15:20
tkoMDK, remember also that there's difference between stable-as-far-as-developer-thinks and stable-as-in-passed-the-whole-set-of-tests15:21
keesjMDK: By having different IT releases you choose to introduce differences based on arbitrary deadlines, package should just contain flags about features ( like webcam) and "how" stable they are15:22
tkomaemo and sardine are closer to the developers15:22
MDKkeesj: ah, that's what you mean. I can only fully agree.15:23
kjetilhoxan: gPodder was the top story on garage :)  but it requires Python 2.5(!)15:26
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keesjdid somebody try to run rockbox on maemo?15:30
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kjetilhoanother n00b question -- can I update all packages in one go?15:36
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kjetilhosilly question, I guess you guys use apt-get upgrade instead of the Application manager.15:37
tkokjetilho, package upgrades (other that application manager installed) are not officially supported15:38
kjetilhoso I have to select each package individually and push Update?15:39
tkothat is possible15:39
tkoI can't actually recall doing upgrades :)15:40
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kjetilhoI've taken the red pill and have added some extra repositories, so I get suggested updates on ncurses and libjingle etc.15:41
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kjetilhogrr, but now it is broken.  "apt-worker exited."  next package: "write: Bad file descriptor"15:44
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kjetilhookay, since Application manager was broken, I tried apt-get check as root, and got no errors.  apt-get upgrade seemed to work well -- then spontaneous reboot. :-/15:54
kjetilhohey -- it worked flawlessly on the second go :)15:59
jtrakjetilho: some packages break wathdog checking when being upgraded; you may need to disable watchdog15:59
jtrakjetilho: that is what I heard, I did not try that myself16:00
kjetilhoah, ok.  I did the second attempt via sshd just to keep memory consumption down16:00
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kjetilhois this normal?  /bin/sh: /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure: not found16:06
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keesjkjetilho: yes16:07
keesjit is expected/known  behaviour16:07
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kjetilhookay, so I've got gpodder installed, but it fails on startup with "import osso" -- anyone know which package that Python module is in?16:11
sp3000python-osso would be the first to look for per usual naming16:12
kjetilhothanks!  it's not in my repositories, though16:13
sp3000python2.5-osso mistral/free16:14
sp3000python2.4-osso // mistral/free16:14
sp3000phear my copypaste-fu16:14
kjetilhohow did you look that up?16:14
sp3000apt-cache search oss | grep python16:14
sp3000apt-cache policy $pkg ...16:14
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sp3000but of course that only works out if it is in your confuigured repositories16:15
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kjetilhoduh, I should've thought of that.  sorry!16:15
kjetilhoI'm not quite used to having access to the full goodness of apt16:16
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kjetilhohehe, the deps for gpodder are somewhat lacking.  now it fails on sax.saxutils :-)16:16
keesjThis radio thing is really great (there are some bugs ) I can even use my n800 where there is no internet!16:18
keesjdo you think the button on the headphone could be used to mute?16:18
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tkoof course it could, just a matter of making the software do it..16:32
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keesjHi kender16:42
kenderkeesj, no answer from garage, is it?16:42
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keesjabout upload?16:46
kenderkeesj, about cleaning "process", maemo-fm and so..16:46
keesjkender: I don't know what you are talking about. I have been doing to much things at the same time16:49
keesjthe gregrale install.txt is outdated and both talk about sbox-config :(16:52
keesjso even is piotras would flind the intructions...16:53
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kenderkeesj, the email that "we" send to the garage, asking about cleanning garage "empty" projects16:55
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keesjyes , sorry no nothing,16:55
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keesjkender: I don't know what do do next  how can we escalate?16:57
Veggenmmmf, python2.5 conflicts with python2.4?16:58
kenderkeesj, maybe talk with ferenc directly?16:59
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Veggenpeople - my sqlite packages conflicts with each other. Which ones do people have installed? (dpkg -l | grep sqlite is fine)17:04
sp3000ii libsqlite3-0 3.3.5-0.2osso1 SQLite 3 shared library17:05
zuhtigert: Great work in the plankton, BUT ;) the scrollbar slider looks like it's disabled and (worse) it blends in with the background. It's hard to make out where to poke at to start dragging...17:06
zuhtigert: Maybe it would work better with say a slight blue tint or something?17:06
Veggenhmm. Ok. That's different than on desktop. But ok, now I'm upgraded to python2.5...17:08
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Veggengpodder is a memory pig.17:28
Veggenand process pig. ok, so far it's not really usable :)17:29
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ajturnerso what's the difference, when adding a repository, between dist 3.0 and bora?17:38
kulveprobably one is a link to the another?17:40
ajturnerand I won't be able to install 2.0 apps on bora/3.0/N800?17:41
kulveit depends17:42
kulvethey may work, or may not..17:42
kulveoften works by just recompiling on bora17:43
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keesjit often just works even without recompiling18:04
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matt_cVeggen: gpodder is a bit slow but I don't have any complaints.  I usually just pop in, download media, and pop out though19:05
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Veggenmatt: well, seems it's basically usable. I was trying to abuse it :)19:26
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matt_cVeggen: It's definitely nice for grabbing something to listen to on the run19:30
Veggenconsidering following a podcast for learning a language. It's either getting better in italian, or for example some russian...19:33
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sriso how do I get my hands on the fm radio applet?20:26
c0ffeethe url to the .deb file is in jaffa's blog on maemopeople20:27
maddlerand on mine as well.. :D20:27
sric0ffee: thank you20:27
srimaddler: thank you :)20:27
sriI should probably get an rss feed of that.20:28
maddlersri: take rss20:29
maddlerthis way you will get almost every other maemo related feed as well ;)20:30
jonnylambi have just installed and configured the bora SDK. however, i want to do some editing on the core of maemo- specifically libconic (i think it's called that); does anyone know anything about this, or any good guides?20:31
kulvejonnylamb: read this: ?20:35
kulve+have you20:35
srimaddler: ok20:36
srimaddler: is the fm applet supposed to work? :-)  I don't seem to get any reception20:36
jonnylambkulve: yes. the interesting parts there are just stolen from and of course the doxygen output is nicer :)20:36
kulvemaddler: I think the devices own rss-reader still crashes on that?20:36
jonnylambkulve: i suppose what i am really asking, is how to compile maemo itself.. is jhbuild ( really the best way to go?20:37
kulveWhat do you mean by "maemo"? Do you want to compile all the single pieces..?20:38
maddlerkulve: not mine...20:38
maddlerI had a crash on TheRegister rss feed yesterday...20:38
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maddlerbut only using Atom feed... everything went fine with rss2...20:39
tkosri, you mean fmradio in tableteer (preconfigured repositories) ?20:41
tkosri, fm radio needs an antenna - plug in the headphones20:41
jonnylambkulve: hmm, well i want to add soem functionality to libconic (i believe this is the right module).. do you think one could just recompile this part from source and drop it into place in scratchbox?20:41
kulvejonnylamb: get sources of it in SB. Compile it in SB. Copy the lib (or .deb) to the device (and install it in case of .deb)20:42
kulvethat's the normal procedure recarding generic lib. Messing with connectivity can easily break things..20:43
kulvemaddler: When I got the device (the week it was annouced), clicking the RSS 2.0 feed on crashed the rss reader every time. Now it didn't. Maybe they've fixed something20:44
kulvejonnylamb: I usually build just by "dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot".20:47
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kulvejonnylamb: I don't know anything about Jhbuild, so I'm not saying anything about that..20:47
jonnylambkulve: hmm, i'm not entirely sure i want to edit libconic though. i want to look into supporting a user name and password in proxies...20:48
kulvejonnylamb: when using e.g. the browser?20:49
jonnylambkulve: i've looked around the repo and can't seem to find what i'm looking for.. maybe i'm being blind!20:49
jonnylambkulve: well it should be a system-wide thing. after-all, proxies are set-up per IAP. every connection that uses the web should use this (opera, rss reader, application manager)20:50
kulvehmm. true20:51
kulveconnection manager's settings include the proxy stuff in advanced -tab..20:51
srihow did that guy "Hanno" install scummvm working on his N800?20:51
maddlersri: I got it from repo...20:52
maddlerI'm playing BSS right now...20:52
sriman.. which repo?20:52
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maddlereh... lemme se...20:56
maddlerpoint your browser to this link...20:58
jonnylambkulve: mmm. apparently the proxy server & port are gconf values (i can't find a gconf editor for maemo- where is it?!) and i looked at the feed-reader/liferea source, and it took values of proxy server/port/username/password from gconf. however, apparently adding ones own gconf values doesn't help..20:58
srinever I went there, it said no versions available.20:58
sriI went there, it said no versions available.20:58
kulvejonnylamb: the only gconf editor on the device is gconftool-2..20:59
kulvedunno if somebody has compiled some graphical editors20:59
jonnylambkulve: as this "global proxy support" is taken from gnome (Desktop->Preferences->Network Proxy).. it's all a little confusing atm though..21:00
sriah, maybe this:21:00
sriman, that was the one killer app I wanted. scummvm21:03
srimonkey island.. here I come.21:03
sribetter yet, monkey island 3! :)21:03
zuhkulve: (but don't see any packages though)21:05
kulve"Hope to be able to release it soon"21:06
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tkojonnylamb, basically the idea was that apps can follow the gnome standards for proxy settings and the connectivity framework will make sure those settings get updated when switching between networks21:17
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tkojonnylamb, come to think of it, it would be nice if we also implemented the network manager services...21:18
jonnylambtko: yes. i looked at the source for the feed reader and it got the details from gconf (i think... don't hold me to it), but apparently adding these gconf values separately doesn't alter it..21:19
jonnylambtko: (details = proxy user name and password)21:19
tkojonnylamb, IIRC proxy authentication might've been overlooked21:21
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jonnylambtko: do you think it'd be hard to add?21:21
bedboianyone lives in london here? i have some questions21:22
sriis there a way to bring up a keyboard on app that currently doesn't seem to support keyboard entry?21:23
sri(eg scummvm)21:23
tkojonnylamb, technically no, process wise I'd rather not comment21:23
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mukundbedboi: i used to live in london till oct21:24
mukunds/used to live/lived/21:24
bedboido you know if there is a simple way to get to heathrow airport from tottenham ? (tottenham lane)21:25
jonnylambtko: lol! i want to get into trying to add support for this, but i was discussing earlier, and i'm not quite sure the best way to approach it. i'm not even sure whether libconic is the thing to be editing... do you have any ideas?!21:25
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mukundbedboi: you need the tube map.. the fastest way to heathrow is taking the heathrow express, which is a non-tube train from paddington station to heathrow21:26
mukundyou can also take the tube but it is slower21:26
bedboibut also cheaper :)21:26
mukundthe tube map is for getting to paddington from tottenham court road (i'm guessing you mean that tottenham)21:26
mukundyah tube is cheaper :)21:27
bedboimukund: don't really know, i never been in london...btw can i query?21:27
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tkojonnylamb, quickly thinking it would require adding two items in the proxy configuration settings, which would include some UI work, some localisation, some backend work, testing, bugfixing, ... oh, and money :)21:27
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maddlersri: I prefer beneath a steel sky :)21:28
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tkohmm, monkey island 3? I was playing 1 and 2 on 770 (never played them on pc) and didn't even know about 3 - I think :)21:35
xxRobotIs there way to make playlists that actually work on the tablet?21:40
suihkulokkitko: you forgot arguing if it is poweruser or enduser feature :)21:42
jonnylambtko: well i thought about the localisation and ui stuff. there is a convention used in places which uses username:password@server. upon submitting that form these could be spliced into their component parts or whatever... the thing that was really on my mind though was actually implementing it... is every outgoing web request made through a central api that handles proxies (this must be libconic).. and so every request should go th21:44
jonnylambtko: woah, i'll try and keep these essays down! sorry!21:44
tkojonnylamb, I was only thinking about the advanced connectivity settings dialog21:47
jonnylambtko: yes, i was only thinking of the actual workings of the handling the proxy!!21:48
tkoarguably whenever you get '40something proxy authentication required' response the application should be prepared to ask for a password if it's not already known21:48
tkosuihkulokki, tough call.. end users don't choose their networking environment21:49
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tkomore entries in the UI makes it more complex, less entries and you can't access the network at all in some cases...21:49
jonnylambtko: yes, but putting the UI aside for a second here; would libconic be the one to be editing, do you know?21:50
tkojonnylamb, I couldn't tell. I'd start from the UI21:51
tkojonnylamb, but considering it's closed source I'd just grep for signs of gnome gconf keys in libconic and go from there21:51
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jonnylambtko: woooah, it's closed source?!21:52
jonnylambtko: i think i've misread something here!21:52
tkojonnylamb, UI in general is21:52
nelsonfmradio.  Cool!  The app needs a little help, though.21:52
jonnylambtko: ah, don't mind about the UI! i'm more into implementing the actual feature!!!21:53
tkonelson, indeed. in 10 minutes I found 2 bugs and one enhancement.. after a while longer one more bug which I already forgot :)21:53
tkoif only the sources were available...21:53
jonnylambtko: you work for nokia, no?21:54
roopeFM radio. New age.21:54
tkojonnylamb, well, grep for gconf keys and you might get lucky. I don't work on connectivity bits so I can't tell immediately where the implementation is21:54
tkojonnylamb, yes, but more on hildon, gtk and gnome (UI) related things21:54
jonnylambtko: nice! why is it closed-source, or is it compicated/something...?21:55
nelsontko: yes; for example, it ought to allow folders in the list of stations (so that when I travel, I can select the folder for the current location) .... and that could work with GeoClue, couldn't it?21:56
tkojonnylamb, higher level decision21:56
nelsontko: high level, lower wisdom.21:56
zuhroope: At least it has a decent coverage between work and home, not like wlan (100m from house, inside office doors)21:56
nelsontko: another thing that would be handy is a "populate this folder with every possible station".21:57
tkonelson, oh, I was thinking something much more basic, like scanning the frequencies and picking up all the transmissions...21:57
nelsontko: right, that's what I mean.  Why should I have to do that by hand?21:57
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roopeWell, if you would suppose that the UI would the best in the world. (Speculate for a second. ;)21:57
tkonelson, and showing a 'loading...' infopring when clicking the icon on the applet21:57
nelsontko: also, in the USA, stations are only every 200khz; not every 50khz.21:57
tkonelson, but the geoclue sounds like a really nice idea21:58
roopezuh: well yes. But 3g is pretty nice, I don't have to care about wlans anymore.21:58
tkonelson, tigert would like you :-P21:58
nelsonHehe, that was a suckup to tigert, wasn't it??21:58
nelsonalso ... I don't know if the hardware can do it, but if it can, it would be REALLY REALLY cool to listen to RDS to get the station name.21:59
tkoroope, I pretty much agree the thinking behind open/closed UI is very sound -- if we had the best possible UI21:59
roopeWell, best possible is impossible to define. But.22:00
tkonelson, naw, he's just been vocal about geoclue22:00
tkowell, 'better than anyone else'22:00
nelsonThe thinking between a state religion and freedom os religion is very sound -- if you had the best possible religion.22:00
tkoat the moment22:00
roopethe UI really is the kind of the competitive advantage (or disadvantage) in many caess. the technical stuff kind of eventually gets uniform.22:01
roopeLike a hundred devices can do gsm calls, but the UI is the thing where the diffferences start to come.22:01
roopeso I quit ewell understand why Nokia would want to keep it closed sourec.22:02
tkowhen anyone brings up the decision about open/closed thing I usually bring up the sketch application :)22:02
tkothough I can appreciate it's a huge gray area for making business decisions22:03
roopeYes, I'd love to see it being improved. :)22:03
zuhThat's "competitive advantage" for you...22:03
roopeBut then again, many (kids) like the UI. ;)22:04
roopeI've heard many anecdotes of children picking up the 770 and then just using Sketch for a long time.22:04
roopecause it's oh so simple.22:04
tkoNokia is closed by default company. but the amount of open source infected is increasing :)22:04
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zuhroope: And that's true too. Though my daughter was at it for 5min until she discovered a bug in it...22:05
tkooh well, frankly I also do bring up Notes and the pdf reader :)22:05
xanroope, it could be improved A LOT without making the UI any more complicated22:05
roopeYes it could.22:05
tkooh, and the calculator22:05
roopeAnti-aliased brushed, better canvas size handling, better color picker, better brush size picker, pressure sensitivity etc.22:05
roopezuh: which bug?22:05
nelsonHmmmm.....  The FM receiver's chip says nothing about RDS.  :-(22:06
sp3000a brush size between 1px and ~millionpx would be awesome :D22:06
tkobasically there's stuff that no one else has and then there's stuff that everyone else has implemented better, but we're not exactly making the distinction yet22:06
zuhroope: The one where you select white color and go "hey, what happened to the button that selects colors!"22:06
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roopeI thought there's a box around that color.22:06
zuhNot sure if it's still present, that was with 77022:06
roopeWe fixed that. :)22:07
tkozuh, if it's still there you can blame MDK :)22:07
kulveit's not22:07
kulveI'm just skecthing..22:07
kulveand the device booted in the middle :/22:07
tkokulve, voluntarily? :)22:08
suihkulokkitko: osso-pdf-reader is free software22:08
kulvehad to try it :)22:08
tkosuihkulokki, I know. though it took a long time to become more common knowledge22:08
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zuhI tried one day to draw some ui draft with it, but I got frustrated with the fact that you can only start the drag inside the canvas (I was tinkering with corners)22:09
roopeBut being that the Sketch UI we did there is very basic, I don't quite... Um. How much work it would be to make a better one from scratch?22:09
tkofun.. the color selector defaults to grayscale for predefined colors and red for custom colors22:09
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roopeIt's really just the gtkdrawingpanethingy and some basic controls.22:10
tko...oh, it's insensitive .. heh22:10
roopeSketching for a touch screen device should be a really key app.22:10
tkomakes sort of sense after the fact, but is not obvious22:10
tkoroope, we've been playing with the idea of writing the sketch from scratch...22:11
zuh<stupid pun>Be sure to sketch the UI first</stupid pun>22:11
tkoduh.. I had played with the color selector and was trying to paint white on white.. and got absolutely no feedback whatsoever :-]22:13
kulvethe fullscreen sketch should really be fullscreen..22:13
kulvenow switching to fs keeps the drawing area the same..22:13
tkowhat's with the +22:13
roope+- changes brush size. ;)22:13
tkoin the filled rectangle and ellipsisi toolbar icons? when you paint they're not filled...22:14
tkoside note: you really don't want me to play with your application if you think it's perfect ;-)22:14
roopeI don't think it's perfect. :)22:15
tkosomehow I just manage to find bugs everywhere22:15
zuhI'd still prefer a vector graphics tool22:15
kulveand usually a coder likes a way different UI than a "regular end user"22:15
roopeIt was a really hard compromise to get even those features.22:15
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roopeI'd love to improve the spec one day, but then agian, it's not really my decision.22:15
zuhBut I guess that's because I'm an engineer and not an artist :)22:15
tkobut really, now I'm too distracted, what's with the '+' ?22:16
tkois it supposed to mean something?22:16
roopeI dunno. "Add" :D22:16
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zuhIt would make sense if the drag point would be in the center, but...22:18
tkook, I'll bite.. so I can 'Add' rectangles and ellipsis, but not free hand drawings nor lines? :)22:18
roopeThere was no + when I dropped off the spec, let's put it that way. :)22:18
tkoahh.. that must be the polished look'n'feel then :-P22:19
roopePart of our overall great graphics. ;)22:19
tkoroope, were the icons filled still? :)22:19
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tkoriiight.. I give up22:20
roope(I actually wanted to drop box and circle, since nobody uses them anyway.)22:20
roopeBut well. Voices From Above prevented. :)22:20
tkois the brush size dependent on the tool used as originally designed?22:21
tkoheh.. I find it confusing22:21
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roopeThe idea was that eraser is usually used big and pen small. :)22:21
sp3000it's good for draw / erase22:21
zuhThat sounded like a good title for a musical album: "Voices From Above - The Booming Sounds of Doom"22:22
tkobut then again, I've never seriously drawn anything so don't listen to me :)22:22
tkooh, very good point. I always expect the eraser to work differently from all other drawing tools, but one drawing tool to behave differently from the next22:23
roopeThere's also no way to exactly set the canvas size by pixels, you can 'thank' me for that. ;)22:23
tkowell, "thank" you :)22:24
tkoFWIW UI design is not the only area where you get the "wtf was this guy thinking" feelings when you look at the thing afterwards22:25
* zuh wonders who to thank for all the two-paned UIs that don't remember their state22:25
tkoprolly the same guy who thought two paned UI is a good idea in the first place..22:26
* tko is thinking about the open file dialog22:26
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roopeHm, I should put my 1-pane open dialog design to the Grill.22:27
tkoit's not bad as such, just feels suboptimal22:27
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tkomany things look good on 800px wide screen if you ignore the actual font size...22:28
sp3000pathbars ftw?22:28
* sp3000 shrugs22:29
tkoroope, IMO we should look into reducing the number of 'tiny' dialogs which pretty much waste 50% of the screen size just because they're dialogs22:29
zuhOk, now that you brought it up, what's with the UI being 50% dialogs?-)22:30
zuh...when you already need to cut down the actual windows to fit...22:30
roopeWell, easier to implement. I guess.22:31
tkowith my very limited UI design experience my idea for a file dialog is one pane thingie with a 'back' button on top (with the current directory as label) possible combined with thumbnail/list toggle button right aligned on top -- as big dialog as possible22:31
roopeeasier to design. UI switching between views is actually pretty bad always.22:31
tko'as seen in windows' ?22:31
roopeIf an app has multiple views, switching between those views is hard.22:31
roopeone view + multiple dialogs on top of more manageable.22:31
suihkulokkigreat example of popup dialog disease in our UI. try to setup the proxy for a saved connection22:31
xantko, not using the fullscreen for basically everything on a tiny screen should be a crime, IMHO22:31
xantko, using tiny dialogs is beyond belief, of course :)22:32
roopeI agree about the dialog sizes, they could be full height easily.22:32
zuhroope: But that's a problem in the window management, which is not solved by using dialogs...22:32
roopeIt's also an UI design problem.22:32
roopeCheck the media player for instance.22:33
roopeIt has two main views. Now tell me that's not confusing. :)22:33
suihkulokkiwe end having the stack of "control panel -> popup of connectivity -> popup of connections -> Connection setup popup -> and finally advanced settings popup with proxy settings22:33
sp3000tko, why not gnome's pathbar directly, since you're going to have to use that much space anyway22:33
zuhroope: The whole thing is confusing...22:33
tkojust a thought, but I think all modal dialogs should cover half of the task navigator and statusbar since you can't access them anyway -- normal dialogs could cover pretty much most of the application area22:33
suihkulokkiBTW, what's the deal with + and - buttons for proxy port number?22:34
suihkulokkiusually the proxy port is either 8000 or 808022:34
sp3000(i.e. you lose a row or a column for going up anyway, so going up further in one tap is a win if you don't need to lose more room for that)22:34
suihkulokkiwho is going "+" their way from 0 to 8000 x)22:34
roopeDialogs should have background dimming. modal dialogs also task bar dimming.22:34
tkosp3000, if there's one thing I've learned from UI design, it's that you want to keep it simple. you *really* want to remove all possible elements that are not relevant22:34
tkosuihkulokki, it's the number editor widget22:35
tkosuihkulokki, makes sense for a range of 1..10 or so :)22:35
roopeI fail to understand why background dimming proves to be so hard. :)22:35
sp3000tko: and populating can be slow, so doing multiple single step up cycles could be frustrating if you start deep22:35
roopeIt cannot be that hard - can it?22:35
tkosuihkulokki, and when you have a number editor all your problems look like... err, numbers? :)22:35
roope+- is also a hint about the field wanting numbers.22:36
suihkulokkitko :)22:36
zuhroope: It is if you don't own the windows to be dimmed... (without composite etc)22:36
tkoroope, we need to talk more about what would be acceptable effect22:36
sp3000tko: not that often I hear complaints about gnome complicating ui excessively :P22:37
sp3000more like the opposite22:37
suihkulokkieven for 1..10 (even if one is a imbesill and not a "poweruser"), it's faster to type 10 with VKB than + your way there :)22:37
* sp3000 shrugs some more for good measure22:37
tkoroope, the mockups / ideas I've seen all strongly suggest that we technically need composite manager with its own memory and cpu requirements.. but there might be something in between that could be good enough but we haven't really explored the area22:38
roopeUI design with dialogs as such isn't theoretically any worse or better than with views. If the dialogs would take effective use of the space and dim the background, they would be pretty. They have good sides also.22:38
roopeOpen file dialog is consistent, once the user learns how it behaves it's the same everywhere etc.22:38
tkoroope, for example making the whole application area dimmed in terms of widget graphics would be more or less trivial22:38
roopetko: Yeah. (Although I have no idea what that means. :D22:38
roopeIt's as silly as someone saying "Oh, dropdowns are bad!" (I actually heard that this week.)22:39
sp3000tko: also the pathbar reduces to your suggestion in the common case of not being very deep in a hierarchy22:39
sp3000just saying :)22:39
tkoroope, I meant that we already have 'dimmed' state defined for all (or most) widgets22:39
roopeYeah. But ... that sounds hacky, frankly.22:39
roopeApplications can display whatever content they please. And our dimmed states are not visually similar.22:40
roopePlus 3rd parties can display whatever they please. Dimming only works if it's done in a visual manner.22:40
tkothat said, thoroughly dimming the screen really does have much stronger impact22:40
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roopeI remember when we did dimming on web sites in 1999 by putting a transparent xoxo (grid) black repeating png file on top of the image.22:43
roopeso that every second pixel was transparent and every other not. :)22:43
tkoroope, 'dropdowns are bad' ? meaning menus? I'm pretty much convinced cascading menus are suboptimal for us, especially for anything the task navigator22:44
roopeNo, this guy was referring to the dropdown widget. The list thingy.22:44
roopeI agree about the task navigator part.22:44
keesjand is the internet connected to the 770 the same as the one connected to the n800?22:45
tigertroope, check out my new theme version22:46
melmothanybody here familiar with libosso (and preferrabily python) ? I would like an example of rpc call with arguments22:47
tkoah, well, the combobox dropdown list is suboptimal.. I blame gtk and myself, but the current way was the easiest way to get a scrollbar for the dropdown22:47
roopea screenshot, perchance?22:47
tigertlooks mostly same. but small tweaks22:48
tkohmm, for theme updates, should one be posting 'before' and 'after' screenshots? :)22:48
tigertbuttons are cooler and i tweaked the tthumb kbd a bit, stinn in progress thhough22:48
* tko is still getting annoyed by all garage projects without screenshots22:49
roopeI'm still happy you did the top right corner like that. :)22:50
roopecause It's The Way It's Meant To Be Done (tm)22:50
tkoumm.. is it intentional that the 'fkb showing' sound effect is *not* played if you use the select key?22:51
roopeYeah. The "fluup" sound is the thumb detection sound.22:51
roopeI specified "like a finger on a surface". I think it's funny. :D22:51
roopeThen again, yea, I gues you could also think it's the thumb kb sound.22:52
tkoI'm having trouble figuring out what kind of surface the sound effect is trying to express22:52
roopeBut the HW select button gives you the feedback anyway haptically, so.22:52
tigertits the "i am eating while typing"-sound :)22:52
bedboitko: eheh, yep22:52
roopeYes, it's a bit hollywood version. ;)22:53
tkooh well, my mental model often does not match what's intended, and given my background it's sometimes wise to ignore my ramblings :)22:54
roopeBasically the sound is there because hte user might be unsure whether he pressed with sufficient forec. With the HW select it's very obvious.22:56
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tigertthe sound is nice22:56
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tkouhh.. considering the sound appears to be played *after* the fkb appears, I'd be inclined to think there's already enough feedback...22:57
tigertalthough it doesnt  always play =)22:57
roopeWell, it's specified to play before it appears. :)22:57
tigertit should play  it in place of the tap sound that also plays22:57
tkothe only confusing part about the sound is that it's not obviously linked with anything22:57
roopeYes, if implementation would allow.22:57
suihkulokkitko: you could dim the backround of a dialog by taking a screenshot dimming that, and displaying the result on top of the "real" desktop22:58
tigertlets make it work :)22:58
tkoguess we're showing the fkb too fast.. must slow it down :-P22:58
tigertwe need to do more little things since those are the ones that get dropped from critical bug lists before every release anyway22:59
tkoif the sound is about finger detection, why don't I hear anything with the TN menus?22:59
tigerttko :)22:59
roopecause that would be just annoying. :)22:59
sp3000I've thought that sound reminiscent of dropping a clunky keyboard on a soft surface such that the keys rattle22:59
roopeWell, it's about both. It's the signal that "don't worry, the fkb is coming!"22:59
tkowhich brings me back to the mental model..22:59
sp3000no doubt due to it playing as a keyboard appears ;)22:59
tkosuihkulokki, we tried various ways but none were fast enough IIRC23:00
tigertroope: "olette edelleen jonossa.wav" =)23:00
tkotigert, design by committee is also pretty effective in not getting any of the little things fixed with any reasonable effort23:02
roopeYes! :)23:02
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tigerthmm. how much of the vkbd layout is hardcoded?23:03
tkohmm, or should I say 'board' ? :)23:03
tkotigert, I think the special buttons on the sides are, the qwerty layout was replaceable23:04
tigertis the thumb board open or closed source?23:05
suihkulokkiguess once?23:05
suihkulokkitko: ah, yes, that's not a very fast effect on desktop either23:05
tigertthe stylus board is open? at least its in the devel rootstrap?23:05
tigertor is that bin only?23:06
tkotigert, none of the UI is open, but the file format for layouts is (sort of) documented23:06
tkojust trying to find the link...23:06
sp3000tigert: "buttons considerably lighter" might have gone too far23:06
sp3000I like the heftier scrollies23:06
* sp3000 brings on the committee23:06
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tkonear the end there's 'Virtual Keyboard Layout XML file'23:06
roopeFKB UI is closed source. It's not ... it's not one of the worst parts of the UI, at least. :)23:07
roopeI do understand Nokia quite well on it.23:07
tkoand judging from the looks of if (width/height attributes which look like pixel measurements) the complete content of the 'qwerty' part of the VKB is customazible23:07
tkohrm.. typo++23:08
tkoinput methods work pretty nicely indeed23:08
tigertyeah. it is the best handheld text input ui i have ever used23:09
tkomy only peeves about input methods are that they're not open and they're relying on hacks to gtk23:09
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tkook, I'm also ignoring the hwr though :)23:10
suihkulokkiwas XIM somehow insufficent?23:10
suihkulokkior how did the current scheme end up so gtk-tied?23:11
roopewhat's XIM?23:11
tkosuihkulokki, I think one contributing factor was that implementing XIM is complicated23:11
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koensuihkulokki: to maximize ROI as seize more profit23:11
tkosuihkulokki, ..and at the same time insufficient23:12
tigertX input method23:13
roopewhen I google for it, all i get is chinese IM hits.23:14
tigertlower level than gtk afaik23:14
tkosuihkulokki, and technically it's not really tied to gtk. it's all based on X messages (afaik) but it's just that we don't have any other widget sets needing it (and we definitely need gtk widgets to integrate with it) so the only implementation was made to support gtk23:14
suihkulokkitko: fair enough.. tho it would have been nicer to actually bring these issues up with the community and attempt to create a open replacement for XIM23:16
tkosuihkulokki, at the time these things were conceived it was politically impossible23:16
tkoor at least extremely delicate23:17
tko(that was the time long before the public heard the first word of 770)23:18
ajturnerwow - just installed the media streamer and it automatically detected my mythtv server23:20
koenajturner: and does it work?23:20
ajturnerhowever, when I select an episode it just says "object not found" :/23:21
ajturner*so close*23:21
koenit detects mine as well, but it doesn't work with it23:21
koenah, right23:21
ajturnerthat's impressive23:21
ajturnerso what does that mean?23:21
ajturneris there a log somehwere23:21
koencanola errors out as well23:21
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ajturnerso you haven't been able to watch your mythtv shows on yours?23:21
tkoa-ha. clearly it's all canola's fault, somehow :)23:21
koenof course23:22
koenit's always the fault of proprietary crap23:22
ajturnerso no go currently?23:22
wwalkerI added to the application catalog and get "Unable to refresh list.  Last refreshed list is shown."  Any ideas?23:23
tigertsee log23:24
tigertprobably a typo in the url23:24
tkowwalker, my guess is that the Distribution or Component are incorrect23:25
tigerttools > log23:25
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sriquestion, how does one get canola23:25
sriseems like the only music player that does daap23:25
keesjtools log. brilliant!23:27
wwalkertigert: I don't have tools-> log23:28
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wwalkeris Log a tool I need to install via the Application Manager?23:31
tigertin app manager menu23:31
tigertnot in main menu23:31
wwalkertigert: ah!  thx23:32
wwalkerI just bought a 770 used.  is there an IRC client?23:34
wwalkerI have no book, so things like how to copy files on and off (just saved the tools->log to a file) are beyond me, which is why I'm trying to get sshd running.23:35
Whizwwalker, xchat23:36
tkoI know of irssi, xchat and gaim23:36
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wwalker"fetch 404 Not Found..."23:36
wwalkerdoes irssi work well?  I use irssi on my regualr machine (linux) all the time), and I have an xterm on the 770 now23:37
wwalkeranyone see the error in the above URL?23:37
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tkowwalker, typo somewhere -- there's
wwalkerIs that a good repo to use (once we find my typo?23:37
wwalkerAHA!  thx tko23:38
tkofree, main, user.. what's the difference anyway? :)23:38
wwalkerthe place I found the reference didn't have anything but the host name23:39
tkomind boggles why custom repositories can't use the structure that's the default in the UI23:39
tkoit's like, "it was hard to set up the repo so it should be hard to use it" :)23:39
tkooh, and if you think I'm complaining be glad I'm not timeless :-P23:40
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tigertit occurred to me too23:45
ptman_Hi! I hacked together a google reader client, which, while not graphical, fetches unread items from google reader, and later syncs back read and "starred" items23:45
tigertwhy not use the default values for other than hostname?23:45
ptman_I did it mostly for myself, to be able to read rss comfortably offline23:46
tigertsounds cool. ncurses?23:46
ptman_but then I realized, that there is a project called feed-reader in garage, and I'd like to talk with the developer23:46
ptman_not even ncurses23:46
ptman_plain terminal, formats html by dumping through a links -port that I found somewhere23:47
keesjptman_: sounds nice23:47
ptman_I'm really suprised that garage projects don't have mailing lists, or do they?23:48
ptman_I couldn't find one23:48
tigertthey can, i think?23:48
ptman_if someone is interested, I can make the source available23:48
tigertat least gforge should support them23:48
ptman_ah, that's right, canola has mailing lists in garage23:49
ptman_I wouldn't want to open a bug to contact the developer23:49
tigertptman, i am thinking it would be sweet to have a really nice and well thought out rss+podcast+videopodcast setup23:49
tigertwhich supported googlereader and bloglines etc23:50
tigertand would work with enclosures by downloading them to memory card23:50
tkoeach garage project should have the (registered) developers list very visible (right hand side on the projects page) as well as links to forums, bug tracker and mailing lists -- if enabled23:50
tkothe admin + developers list is always visible I think23:51
ptman_it sure would be nice, if someone would make it, I just hacked this together in python tonight23:51
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tigertmy ipod makes itt easy to follow podcasts as new unlistened ones have a blue dot23:51
tigertand then on next sync it wil remove listened ones23:52
tigertthe tablet doesnt need a pc for this, which makes it great for rss23:52
ptmanahaa, but are you thinking about a syncing for the podcast -part of that? because I think the maemo platform is powerful enough to not be ordered around by a PC23:53
tigertptman, yeah. just thinking aloud here :)23:53
tigertyeah, precisely. we can be self-sustained.23:53
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ptmanI think, that if I were to listen to podcasts, I'd probably do it all on the 770, but reading blogs, well, it's very nice to be in sync with a desktop (or all desktops you use, with google reader), so that you don't have to see them all again23:54
tigertman. i think i am getting close to perfect thumb kboard theme. th feedback is very good now with the light buttons that turn blue when pressed23:55
ptmansounds good, I've always admired your talents with graphics23:55
tigertptman, yes23:56
tigertthe rss tool should sync with a service like bloglines. even so that if  i add a new one in the tablet rss tool, it would add it to the service also automatically.23:56
ptmanhmm... that's a todo-item, then =)23:57
ptmanI have only two gripes with google reader: 1) you can't _SEARCH_ the subscriptions you have23:57
tigerttherre is a bloglines client, at least for the 77023:57
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ptmanI mean, it's only the blog-portal of the worlds most popular search, engine, so you'd expect that23:58
ptman2) Can't add password protected feeds23:58
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tigertptman, yes. its just silly. google service that lacks search.23:59

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