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| Tak | anybody have a recommendation for a BT keyboard? | 03:16 |
|---|---|---|
| alp | Tak: not quite a recommendation, but definitely don't get one without being sure it's HID, not BT serial | 03:21 |
| alp | some of the nicest looking, solidly built ones unfortunately aren't HID | 03:21 |
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| Tak | thanks | 03:25 |
| Tak | I'm looking at some; I can't find the info in the specs :-( | 03:26 |
| Tak | they just say bluetooth | 03:28 |
| glass_ | check supported devices | 03:29 |
| glass_ | might find a clue there | 03:29 |
| glass_ | if it's supports hid(any bt pc..) | 03:29 |
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| Tak | so if it lists a ton of supported things, it's more likely to be hid ? | 03:33 |
| lucif | hi | 03:36 |
| lucif | is somebody working in a maemo project which i can help¿? | 03:39 |
| hasenranzer | Tak: are you here? | 03:40 |
| glass_ | tak: yes | 03:42 |
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| Tak | cool, thanks | 03:43 |
| Tak | hasenranzer: yes-ish | 03:43 |
| |tbb| | anyone knows what i can do if my application manager will not displayed anymore? btw after i have installed canola | 03:43 |
| |tbb| | in the process list it stays with the name osso-application-manager | 03:44 |
| hasenranzer | Tak: i asked you once as monox or corypho, that i cannot install bash 3.1 and doing apt-get. probably this is my solution for maemo 2.1 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/12322 ...what do you think? | 03:44 |
| |tbb| | but still after complete reboot i cant get application manager to work | 03:45 |
| |tbb| | any idea? | 03:46 |
| * Tak will probably get a thinkoutside stowaway | 03:47 | |
| Tak | |tbb|: maybe try removing canola manually with apt | 03:48 |
| Tak | ? | 03:48 |
| Tak | hasenranzer: does that really affect bash? what repo is it in? | 03:49 |
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| hasenranzer | Tak: not really bash, but i cannot do apt-get. | 04:01 |
| hasenranzer | and some other people said that there is a problem with manually installing bash 3.1 but through apet-get, it should work. but even i can't do apt-get, i have to lose completely | 04:02 |
| hasenranzer | my source list is empty and this is not good! it seems to be the problem on the page | 04:04 |
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| hasenranzer | Tak: do you see my problem? | 04:08 |
| Tak | ah | 04:10 |
| Tak | well, you can put the entries back in | 04:10 |
| Tak | oddly enough, I didn't experience this problem | 04:10 |
| hasenranzer | yes..but everytime, when i do apt-get it makes the sourcelist empty. that's why i have also to modify the code. but i'm not sure now: i have 2.1 scirocco. but in this complain-letter, there are mistral repositories. do at the end only mistral repositories for my 2.1 scrirocco maemo? i don't understand it. | 04:13 |
| hasenranzer | Tak? | 04:19 |
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| Tak | wow, it deletes them *every* time? | 04:28 |
| Tak | that's horrible | 04:28 |
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| hasenranzer | Tak: yes..you should probably also have this problem if you have 2.1 maemo. don't you have it? | 04:33 |
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| Tak | no, I don't | 05:40 |
| Tak | but you're gone, so it doesn't matter | 05:41 |
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| minra | herro! | 15:49 |
| minra | i got 2GB support working, but i couldnt flash a 2.16-39 kernel.. the device just kept rebooting. i assume the kernel flasher is not upgrading modules automatically | 15:50 |
| minra | can i upgrade to newest kernel without overwriting a whole new root filesystem` | 15:50 |
| minra | btw. xmame is still real slow, but it works with a couple of the greatest old games ever. gravitar and spaceduel | 15:51 |
| minra | joust is also playable | 15:51 |
| tko | kernel modules are in initfs, you usually should flash both kernel and initfs at the same time (both can be flashed without touching the rootfs) | 15:51 |
| minra | thanks | 15:52 |
| minra | btw i need to turn the unit on before the flashing works, someone wrote in a howto that the unit had to be off with battery removed... (!) | 15:53 |
| minra | thanks... ill get multi-boot working and start learning how to cross compilea | 15:53 |
| minra | i am evangelizing this device as much as i can | 15:54 |
| Treize_K | i think u always need to turn the unit on since the usb link doesn't provide any power to the device as far as i know, and they're yet to invent flash memory with no power consumption as far as i know | 15:55 |
| minra | do you know if it is possible to switch between x applications with keyboard? alt+something perhaps? | 15:55 |
| minra | yes that makes sense | 15:56 |
| minra | ill send a note to that web page author about the issue | 15:56 |
| minra | misleading documentation on the web is not good | 15:56 |
| minra | are you developing/porting maemo apps Treize_K? seems i remember your nick from somewhere | 15:57 |
| Treize_K | no i just bought my nokia two weeks ago :) | 15:58 |
| Treize_K | haven't even installed maemo yet :s | 15:59 |
| Treize_K | but i love it though | 15:59 |
| minra | cool. i have had mine for four days. did you buy a bluetooth keyboard for it? | 15:59 |
| tko | IIRC you need to have power cable unplugged when flashing | 16:00 |
| Treize_K | nope, not yet anyway | 16:00 |
| minra | oh i have the thinkpad stowaway bt kbd and it is really sweet. build quality isnt perfect but the design is great. very fast typing. | 16:01 |
| minra | i dont know if the nokia kbd is better... | 16:01 |
| Treize_K | yea power needs to be unplugged tko, i read it in the manual somewhere too | 16:01 |
| minra | battery life seems good. i havent had to replace the 2x AAAs yet | 16:02 |
| Treize_K | cool | 16:02 |
| Treize_K | i actually bought the 770 without knowing very much about it, i usually never do that | 16:02 |
| minra | with flite, kismet will be usable (it is in the garage extras repository) | 16:03 |
| minra | only problem i have with kismet is that it can not exit from rfmon mode (for me) so i have to reboot to enter a network | 16:03 |
| Treize_K | but i was on a trip to New York with school for a week and i bought it at J&R cause i had too much money left :D | 16:03 |
| minra | heh | 16:04 |
| minra | what price? | 16:05 |
| Treize_K | 390$ | 16:05 |
| Treize_K | i'm reluctant to try flasher though, since i can't get any guarantee here i think | 16:06 |
| minra | you can use up to 1GB rsmmc with the stock kernel | 16:06 |
| Treize_K | yea i know, i already ordered a 1GB card | 16:07 |
| minra | i want nfs and need 2GB so i had to flash... but the -25 kernel flashed without upgrading the initfs | 16:07 |
| Treize_K | i see | 16:07 |
| minra | now i am looking around for a notebook usb hard drive with built in battery... no luck yet | 16:07 |
| Treize_K | hmm yea haven't come accross any of those either | 16:08 |
| minra | this is my laptop replacement.. my last one was stolen and the one before that smashed by a drunken passerby | 16:08 |
| Treize_K | talk about bad luck | 16:09 |
| minra | yeah... | 16:10 |
| minra | the 770 is fun. theres kind of a frontier feeling. | 16:10 |
| minra | small community... lots of apps just recently ported... | 16:10 |
| Treize_K | yeah true, in a few years who knows, maybe all pda's will run debian instead of pocketpc hehe | 16:11 |
| minra | but the things that have been ported are exactly what i want/need... so i am happy as a frolicking goat | 16:11 |
| Treize_K | lol | 16:11 |
| minra | well there are a lot of people who are content with windows. i started on microsoft with dos 1.0 and unix with bsd 4.2 so i grew up hating microsoft to death | 16:13 |
| Treize_K | i like to stay neutral when it comes to that | 16:14 |
| minra | just for example, to share files over a network via unix/nfs on the 770 requires a few kilobytes more code... to share files via samba, you need to install many megabytes of packages | 16:14 |
| minra | well thats pragmatic | 16:14 |
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| Treize_K | i guess, but i grew up with dos and windows | 16:16 |
| Treize_K | so i can't just cast away their importance | 16:16 |
| Treize_K | though the latest trends (especially .NET) are starting to get on my nerves alot | 16:16 |
| minra | true. i am one of those religious freaks. | 16:17 |
| minra | me too | 16:17 |
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| minra | so whats your favorite app youve installed on your 770? | 16:18 |
| Treize_K | mmm ssh daemon i guess :) | 16:19 |
| Treize_K | doom was funny though | 16:19 |
| Treize_K | hadn't played it in ages | 16:20 |
| Treize_K | yours? | 16:22 |
| minra | uh... well the list would be... xmame for the old arcade games, ssh, kismet (when i get it working right), xchat irc, gaim IM, xterminal, vncviewer (iwhen i get it working right) | 16:26 |
| minra | i hope to someday get the roguelike TOME ported as well as Nethack was ported | 16:33 |
| minra | i spent four months designing a new tileset for tome, and id like to see it distributed | 16:34 |
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| * Treize_K isn't a big tokien fan | 16:34 | |
| Treize_K | tolkien* | 16:34 |
| minra | hi spect | 16:37 |
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| minra | boy this opera browser loves to crash | 16:45 |
| minra | and refuses to let me hilight text | 16:45 |
| Treize_K | u mean on the nokia? | 16:45 |
| Treize_K | i haven't had that happen yet | 16:45 |
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| minra | Treize_K, do you have a solution to the no hilighting problem? | 16:49 |
| minra | i am looking at minimo archives at the moment, but i am leery of adding all these individual repositories to my sources.list | 16:49 |
| spect | minra: hello ;) | 16:50 |
| minra | it is particularly annoying since all these links in forums dont have clickable links | 16:51 |
| Treize_K | no i don't have a solution to that, i do have a workaround though, just go edit-> select all and paste it in Notes and select the text there :p | 16:51 |
| timelyx | minra: you can download the indvidual debs if you like | 16:52 |
| timelyx | note that minimo crashes on me more often than opera | 16:52 |
| timelyx | and doesn't have the hooks to recognize low memory | 16:52 |
| timelyx | so it can kill your device | 16:52 |
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| * Treize_K is glad he decided not to install minimo | 16:52 | |
| timelyx | having your device reboot isn't that bad :) | 16:53 |
| timelyx | fwiw, some people claim to be happier if they enable swap | 16:53 |
| * timelyx gave up on swap months ago | 16:53 | |
| Treize_K | you mean on the mmc? | 16:53 |
| spect | minra: for highlighting try double tapping and then move around :) | 16:53 |
| timelyx | yes | 16:54 |
| Treize_K | :O omg that works lol | 16:54 |
| Treize_K | no more Notes, wooho | 16:54 |
| timelyx | no more notes? | 16:54 |
| spect | Treize_K: :) | 16:55 |
| Treize_K | i used to paste everything in Notes to select something lol | 16:55 |
| minra | ok i am having no luck adding the mistral repository home.ufam.edu.br/~agan/minimo | 16:56 |
| * timelyx didn't either | 16:56 | |
| timelyx | just grab the debs manually :) | 16:56 |
| minra | you know, dillo is the browser we should have for 770 | 16:56 |
| tko | minra, would be interesting to see the marketing material you can make for dillo | 16:58 |
| tko | "barely supports html" | 16:58 |
| koen | "it rocks for sites from 1995" | 17:00 |
| tko | 1995 called, they want their browser back | 17:00 |
| alp | oh, speaking of new browsers, i ported apple's webkit the other day, http://www.ndesk.org/tmp/WebKit-Gdk-Nokia770.jpg | 17:01 |
| alp | it is usable, snappier than opera | 17:01 |
| tko | oh, I thought gtk-webcore is virtually dead | 17:02 |
| koen | tko: gtk-webcore is | 17:02 |
| alp | no, this isn't the years-old codebase, but what apple is shipping in safari 3.0 | 17:02 |
| koen | tko: gdk support was added to webkit svn | 17:02 |
| tko | whoa | 17:02 |
| alp | i'm submitting patches to them as i go, a few have already landed | 17:02 |
| tko | xan, did you get that? :) | 17:03 |
| koen | tko: it's even mentioned on the gtk-webcore list :) | 17:03 |
| minra | i *like*dillo compatible sites... i know it isnt a swiss army knife | 17:04 |
| alp | i never looked at gtk-webcore, but i'm assuming hacking on a dead-end code base is not the way to go | 17:04 |
| xan | tko, I knew about the new webcore getting gtk support, but didn't know was already usable | 17:04 |
| xan | alp, very nice :) | 17:04 |
| minra | sorry i have occasional 4 minute lags here | 17:05 |
| xan | alp, will webcore get sane release cycles and someone committed to maintain the gtk support? | 17:07 |
| alp | xan: the way it works is a bit awkward. i don't know the history (apparently it was a lot worse) but code is often refactored without much awareness of the ports | 17:08 |
| alp | so you end up with a big patch which is obsolete before it can get committed | 17:09 |
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| xan | well, if they don't break the API between micro-releases they are already better than firefox :] | 17:09 |
| xan | do they have releases? :) | 17:10 |
| alp | i'm just interested in getting it working as a replacement to gtkmozembed now that mono apps are being ported to the 770 | 17:10 |
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| minra | i worship people like you | 17:16 |
| alp | i don't quite get why nokia have a team of people working to port webkit to their own platform who don't go near the gdk port | 17:16 |
| alp | haha | 17:17 |
| alp | don't know if it'd be worthwhile but i can throw on a url bar and make a deb, it's could be handy for the development firmware which has no browser | 17:20 |
| alp | there is a memory alignment issue which needs to be fixed even before that though | 17:21 |
| minra | you know what i mean. the porters and open source devs can make the 770 great. it is all in your hands. nokia wont fund fun apps... | 17:22 |
| minra | ok bbs. oobe (out of beer error) | 17:27 |
| tko | ENOBEER | 17:29 |
| tko | alp, code repository, package repository and getting mentioned in the planet would be nice :) | 17:30 |
| tko | and of course screenshots | 17:30 |
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| alp | it's nothing new, there's already a browser. might be worth blogging when it matches up and handles the corner cases as nicely as the one that ships with it | 17:32 |
| tko | it's a new alternative | 17:33 |
| koen | a new hope | 17:44 |
| tko | the opera strikes back | 17:44 |
| wasabi | Do any PIM stacks that run on the Maemo have Exchange support? | 17:45 |
| koen | :) | 17:45 |
| wasabi | And dial on demand PPTP and stuff, like the pocketpc | 17:45 |
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| czr | quick question. N770 advertises itself as USB2 device (when used as mass-storage), however the max speed is still 12 Mbps (for the usb). is this normal? can anyone verify? | 19:17 |
| czr | (it's connected to usb2 equipment) | 19:17 |
| Paavo | USB 2.0 is _not_ the same as Hi-Speed USB. | 19:26 |
| Paavo | The USB 2.0 standard supports also the lower speeds. | 19:27 |
| tko | like full speed? :) | 19:27 |
| Paavo | ...so it's perfectly correct to call a 12 Mbps only device "USB 2.0". | 19:27 |
| Paavo | tko: yep. the terminology is insane. | 19:28 |
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| Paavo | like, what is faster? "high speed" or "full speed"? I'd guess the latter, but I'd be wrong. | 19:28 |
| czr | I understand that. I just wanted to check that what I'm seeing is correct | 19:32 |
| czr | full speed = 480, high speed = 12 | 19:32 |
| czr | I can just wonder what the next speed will be if there ever is usb3 | 19:33 |
| tko | "next speed" sounds good | 19:35 |
| czr | "this is the real full speed" | 19:36 |
| Paavo | czr: no, it's the other way around | 19:36 |
| Paavo | full speed = 12, high speed = 480 | 19:36 |
| czr | paavo, is it? let me check | 19:36 |
| czr | ah. so it is | 19:37 |
| czr | looked from the wrong part of dmesg, sry | 19:37 |
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| kender | hello | 19:38 |
| * Paavo votes "ludicrous speed" | 19:38 | |
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| tko | Paavo, +1 | 19:40 |
| czr | btw, anyone worked with the mmc/sd driver in 2.6? | 19:41 |
| czr | I'm getting pretty abysmal speeds with SD | 19:41 |
| czr | so I'm thinking that the driver only implements SPI for SD cards, right? | 19:42 |
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| minra | i am like the noob question fountain | 19:50 |
| roope | warp speed. make it so. | 19:51 |
| minra | printing libraries and cups are behemoths in disk space... is there a cheap way to do it? i think maybe an export to postscript, then sending docs to a cups enabled computer | 19:51 |
| minra | there are some slim text editors, like "ted" but its kind of dicey | 19:52 |
| minra | hey roope, you ever try out an epoc (psion) computer? | 19:53 |
| roope | Sure I have. Several. | 19:53 |
| minra | neat. i used to run linux on a psion netbook | 19:53 |
| roope | Series 3, 5mx and the ericsson version. | 19:53 |
| roope | Oh, and the ... revo. | 19:54 |
| roope | They're great machines. :) | 19:54 |
| minra | i had a 5mx.. was great in bright sunlight | 19:54 |
| minra | nice designs too. sad that format and OS died. | 19:55 |
| minra | agree | 19:55 |
| roope | Yeah. They do certain things better than ... well, even today better than wha t is currently out there. | 19:55 |
| roope | Integrating sketching etc. | 19:55 |
| minra | the 770 with keyboard has replaced my netbook.. | 19:55 |
| minra | agree | 19:55 |
| minra | do you want a netbook? i cracked the motherboard where the power connector is | 19:56 |
| minra | and i lost a surface mount resistor that needs to be resoldered | 19:56 |
| roope | Well. I'd take a macbook. :) | 19:56 |
| minra | but if you can figure that out, it is in good shape | 19:56 |
| minra | heh | 19:57 |
| minra | i found a guy who made a nx client port for the netbook / arm. he gave me a binary with the promise i wouldnt share it | 19:57 |
| minra | i used the netbook for ssh / nx and vnc network admin over wlan at my last job | 19:58 |
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| minra | im hoping he might get on board and port nxclient to the 770 | 19:58 |
| minra | the vncclient available is not working for me | 19:58 |
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| minra | i love this frontier feeling. there is so much work to be done... so manyy things i could do if i got my butt in gear | 20:00 |
| roope | I have one revo close to my desk even now. :) Don't use it, but. For inspiration. :) | 20:00 |
| minra | well its nice to meet some who appreciates good stuff | 20:02 |
| roope | I'm now working for Nokia. I guess I can say that. | 20:04 |
| minra | roope, do you use a 770 with a bluetooth keyboard? | 20:07 |
| minra | congrats | 20:07 |
| roope | Yeah, I've used it sometimes. It's getting there. | 20:07 |
| minra | i didnt know what to buy so i got the thinkpad stowaway kbd and the combination is amazing. i can basically use the 770 as my main portable computer. | 20:09 |
| roope | Yeah. The stowaway is the best of the bunch i've tried. I wouldn't recommend the nokia BT keyboard. | 20:10 |
| roope | ... I guess I shouldn't be saying that, though. :D | 20:10 |
| roope | But simply because that's designed to be used with the S60. | 20:10 |
| minra | any new keyboard layout is a pain to learn, for starters, but this one is pretty doable | 20:10 |
| minra | ah | 20:10 |
| minra | do you have any ideas how i might implement task switching from the keyboard? | 20:11 |
| minra | i think i might be able to do something with xmodmap, if the windowmanager supports window-switch commands | 20:12 |
| roope | In 2005 version alt-tab was working. 2006 it was removed. But but. Yeah. | 20:12 |
| roope | Or, something was changed so that it's not working as default anymore. | 20:12 |
| minra | feel free to ignore my technical questions, i have just had the 770 for a few days. | 20:13 |
| minra | got my 2GB mmc card working and lots of fun apps installed | 20:14 |
| roope | I'm really also not a technical person, so. | 20:19 |
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| wasabi | I'd sure like a HD for the 770 =) | 20:20 |
| wasabi | http://www.archos.com/products/video/archos_604wifi/index.html?country=global&lang=en that looks interesting | 20:21 |
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| roope | Yeah. | 20:23 |
| roope | Portable video isn't really an interesting feature for me personally, but I guess somebody uses it. | 20:26 |
| roope | Yes with a 14" laptop screen, but not really with a 4" screen. | 20:27 |
| glass_ | i sometimes watch family guy ep's from the ipod on the bus | 20:30 |
| glass_ | but that's just about it | 20:31 |
| roope | I watched some wonder showzen from my ipod. but it's too small. I get nauseous if I don't look ahead in vehicles. :) | 20:32 |
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| Treize_K | is it me or do the Archos specs fail to mention the type of microprocessor? | 20:43 |
| glass_ | you're not supposed to care | 20:44 |
| glass_ | the specs tell whatever you should be caring in non-general purpose media player | 20:45 |
| glass_ | it tells what it can decode anyways | 20:46 |
| Treize_K | yeah i guess | 20:46 |
| roope | Seeing a number really wouldn't help. 200? 300? 400? What would it even tell. :) | 20:46 |
| roope | "oh, 300! That's great. I guess..." | 20:46 |
| Treize_K | eh well | 20:46 |
| Treize_K | if its an ARM5, and it's 300, then couldn't i at least conclude it's better than my nokia? | 20:47 |
| Treize_K | :) | 20:47 |
| koen | arm5? | 20:47 |
| koen | that's pretty old | 20:47 |
| glass_ | what good is 23432 horsepower if you can't use it | 20:47 |
| koen | the 770 uses arm9 | 20:47 |
| Treize_K | agh, sorry getting mixed up again i was reading about ARM5 before | 20:47 |
| koen | ARM*v*5 probably | 20:48 |
| koen | that's the instruction set used | 20:48 |
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| Treize_K | glass_: why wouldn't you be able to use it? | 20:49 |
| Treize_K | you mean that as in you wouldn't have a practical use for it, or the operating system wouldn't be able to exploit it? | 20:50 |
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| glass_ | treize: if you can't install apps of your choice then it's irrelevant how fast the cpu is | 21:02 |
| glass_ | like | 21:02 |
| glass_ | it's totally irrelevant to me how fast the cpu is in my ipod | 21:02 |
| Treize_K | well of course.. it's just an ipod, but the Archos runs QTopia right? and that's Linux isn't it? (I don't really know, it's just what I read) | 21:04 |
| glass_ | you see qtopia mentioned anywhere there or that you could install your own apps? | 21:05 |
| glass_ | not even mophun is mentioned for that thing(it was on some archoses iirc) | 21:05 |
| wasabi | Nokia's approach is great, but for it to continue, it has to be a commercial success. | 21:05 |
| wasabi | So, despite the platform, having a great solution for things people will pay for is a no-brainer. If the Archos sells, well, the n770 should sell in it's place. ;) | 21:06 |
| roope | Yeah, the archos isn't really open. There are some additional software plug-ins there - for sale, 19.99e. | 21:11 |
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| wasabi | So, nokia should put together some packs for gstreamer plugins for windows media and stuff and sell em. | 21:15 |
| Treize_K | i'm just saying.. there's a big difference between installing apps on an Ipod, with some proprietary OS software, and something like the Archos, which would then run Linux, but very much protected | 21:16 |
| glass_ | what difference is there from user viewpoint? | 21:16 |
| Treize_K | none | 21:17 |
| Treize_K | i'm not talking about users | 21:17 |
| Treize_K | not normal ones anyway | 21:17 |
| wasabi | I am. Users are sort of required. | 21:17 |
| glass_ | what difference is there from developer viewpoint when you need properiaty tools to develope and their permission to install? | 21:17 |
| Treize_K | oh please | 21:18 |
| Treize_K | the PSP was supposed to be as closed as could be | 21:18 |
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| glass_ | they fucked it up | 21:18 |
| Treize_K | exactly | 21:18 |
| wasabi | This argument sucks now. I'm done. ;) | 21:18 |
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| Treize_K | they fuck everything up | 21:18 |
| Treize_K | look hard enough and it's the same for the Archos | 21:18 |
| glass_ | not necessarely | 21:19 |
| glass_ | i wish someone would "look hard" enough on series60 3rd edition | 21:19 |
| Paavo | that looks pretty solid, though | 21:21 |
| Paavo | and of course even if a bug is found in one firmware version then future revisions will fix that | 21:22 |
| Paavo | and since you can't downgrade the FW you can't revert back to a crackable FW | 21:22 |
| Treize_K | it's in the hardware that way? | 21:23 |
| Treize_K | that would be insane | 21:23 |
| Treize_K | cause if it's not i'm sure someone could write their own flasher | 21:24 |
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| Paavo | I've seen some internal docs on the downgrade protection and it looked solid to me. | 21:26 |
| Treize_K | so in other words, a user has a perfectly working phone with symbian on it, they decide to upgrade, for some reason their phone is suddenly fucked up, woops can't downgrade? hehe nice | 21:29 |
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| Paavo | I would think you can reflash the same firmware. | 21:31 |
| Paavo | That's assuming the phone is still sane enough to be flashed. USB flashing requires more sense than flashing with special hardware. | 21:32 |
| wasabi | Downgrade protection is obviously flawed. | 21:33 |
| wasabi | Since it's obviously driven by knowledge about the version of what you're flashing right now. ;) | 21:33 |
| wasabi | if N > M; allow | 21:33 |
| Paavo | Also, you can only flash the official firmware packages to production phones. | 21:34 |
| wasabi | yeah that can be accomplished by signing. =( | 21:35 |
| Paavo | Those _usually_ work :) | 21:35 |
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| GreySim | Hey, I'm curious, can the 770 play videos from YouTube alright? Or would that pretty much not be recommended? | 21:50 |
| c0ffee | those are flash videos | 21:51 |
| c0ffee | should work with 770 | 21:51 |
| Tak | "Hello, you either have JavaScript turne off or an old version of Macromedia's Flash Player." | 21:53 |
| Tak | so no youtube | 21:53 |
| GreySim | Sad. Thanks though. | 21:55 |
| wasabi | So, the sardine guys hang out here? | 21:59 |
| wasabi | Or elsewhere? | 21:59 |
| GreySim | Oh, YouTube and Google Video are both possible, apparently. Just takes a bit of extra work and saving the FLV files themselves: http://www.4tm.com.ar/4tmsite/wordpress/?p=6 | 22:00 |
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| tko | wasabi, who do you consider a 'sardine guy' ? | 22:06 |
| wasabi | Good question. | 22:06 |
| wasabi | I don't really know. It was a misinformed question. | 22:06 |
| c0ffee | i think the hering guys are easy to identify by their smell | 22:07 |
| koen | c0ffee: no, that's the symbian division | 22:07 |
| c0ffee | :) | 22:10 |
| Tak | heh - symbian always makes me think of sybian | 22:12 |
| GreySim | Oh dear. | 22:13 |
| GreySim | The OS for the ladies. | 22:14 |
| onion | many symbian running devices vibrate so no wonder :) | 22:16 |
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| MDK | tko: we borg'ed Quim ;> | 22:24 |
| koen | MDK: another nokian that can only say "no, we have no idea what we are doing" | 22:29 |
| koen | "and if we had, we can't tell you" | 22:29 |
| glass_ | the "and if we had, we can't tell you" bit seems like a bluff most of the time | 22:31 |
| JussiP | "We can neither confirm nor deny any information regarding X". | 22:31 |
| tko | MDK, yeah.. I love to hear from public blogs, mailing lists, whatever first what we're doing :) | 22:33 |
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| MDK | koen: don't make it an "all or nothing" situation | 22:35 |
| MDK | we're trying | 22:35 |
| MDK | and things are getting better | 22:35 |
| * koen has been hearing "overnight" for over a year now | 22:35 | |
| MDK | (in my opinion at least, but I see just one side obviously) | 22:35 |
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| MDK | koen: isn't the present situation better than one year ago? | 22:36 |
| MDK | (asking, since I even wasn't here one year ago) | 22:36 |
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| koen | it the same, except for the 'sardine' stuff | 22:37 |
| koen | still broken docs, continuous api breakage, etc | 22:37 |
| tko | what api breakage? | 22:38 |
| koen | tko: read carlos' mails | 22:39 |
| tko | koen, no, I meant what api breakages have you run into? | 22:40 |
| tko | fwiw we're only beginning to have some kind of global api management | 22:42 |
| MDK | also, as David put it in a recent mail, we're a pretty small team | 22:44 |
| tko | and focusing on wildly different areas | 22:44 |
| MDK | since I joined fairly recently, I still remember how it looks from the "outside" -- like something big and huge, with armies of developers working on it | 22:45 |
| MDK | but in reality we're seriously understaffed | 22:45 |
| tko | well, one nokia easily beats 100 hobbyists, eh? =) | 22:45 |
| tko | one nokian, or whatever | 22:46 |
| tko | I'd like to think haf is doing fairly well these days. a lot better than some other areas at least | 22:47 |
| MDK | well, we're the most open I guess | 22:49 |
| MDK | I guess it's good since it proves the concept | 22:49 |
| tko | I think we still need more contributions coming in, or eventually someone will do the math and fall back to sdk model | 22:51 |
| Pierre | sounds like his formula is wrong :) | 22:54 |
| tko | benefit from contributions - cost of maintaining open development ... | 22:56 |
| MDK | tko: sdk model? Like symbian? | 22:57 |
| tko | MDK, yep | 22:57 |
| MDK | hmmm, sumbian sdk is not free right... ? | 22:58 |
| tko | I think it is, not sure though | 22:58 |
| tko | but basically I mean the model of having the sdk advance in black box mode, all you see is one big monolithic release whenever new product is launched | 22:59 |
| tko | so the best way to improve maemo would be to force us to spend an hour in patch review rather than an hour debating all kinds of things on the mailing lists | 23:01 |
| MDK | true | 23:03 |
| tko | I remember pvanhoof had the right idea at the right time for the dbus upgrade, but we didn't have the people | 23:05 |
| tko | we did manage the later some months later, though :) | 23:06 |
| tko | the upgrade that is | 23:06 |
| MDK | hmm, is there a working last.fm player for maemo? | 23:09 |
| tko | MDK, iain had some long time ago | 23:10 |
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| pvanhoof | koen, the iRex guys knew you by name ;) | 23:18 |
| pvanhoof | you must have done something cool :) | 23:18 |
| koen | pvanhoof: they did? | 23:19 |
| pvanhoof | yes | 23:19 |
| koen | cool | 23:19 |
| pvanhoof | you should talk with them | 23:19 |
| pvanhoof | they are very interested in a lot stuff that you've done in the past | 23:19 |
| koen | I was contemplating on how to get a free unit after reading your blog ;) | 23:19 |
| wasabi | nice. | 23:19 |
| wasabi | if I don't put my mmc card in at boot, it freezes now. | 23:19 |
| pvanhoof | but they specifically knew you by name :) | 23:19 |
| wasabi | apparently canola eats memory | 23:20 |
| pvanhoof | I mentioned that somebody made packages for angstrom for tinymail, so I told them .. a guy named Koen | 23:20 |
| pvanhoof | and one of the Engineers was like, oh Koen Kooi .. yes we know him | 23:20 |
| pvanhoof | anyway, they are interested in a gtk+ 2.6 with a glib 2.8 (with gslice) that wont use cairo | 23:20 |
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| pvanhoof | but the device is really cool | 23:21 |
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| pvanhoof | tko, oh so that way I forced you guys to do the dbus upgrade? :) | 23:27 |
| * pvanhoof feels proud | 23:27 | |
| * pvanhoof influenced a huge company, Nokia :) | 23:27 | |
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| pvanhoof | tko, btw, I also saw the guy doing LogFS, nice one if you ever want to replace jffs2 | 23:28 |
| koen | the only snag is that jörn is changing the on-disk format a lot these days | 23:29 |
| koen | apart from that logfs is very cool | 23:29 |
| pvanhoof | he told me that he's expecting this to stablize :) | 23:31 |
| pvanhoof | but heh, I guess he's still developing it | 23:31 |
| koen | compression is planned for ~march | 23:31 |
| koen | pvanhoof: I talked to Jörn yesterday :) | 23:32 |
| pvanhoof | aha ok | 23:32 |
| pvanhoof | I was spending profits yesterday | 23:32 |
| pvanhoof | bought myself a nice flatscreen and a printer, which I still have to configure | 23:32 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 23:32 |
| wasabi | canola is neato. | 23:32 |
| wasabi | a bit overkill though heh | 23:32 |
| pvanhoof | koen, weren't the irex dudes at t-dose yesterday then? | 23:33 |
| koen | I didn't see the device, but they might have been present | 23:34 |
| koen | I mainly talked to gerwin, leon and klaas | 23:34 |
| koen | about Monkey Island :) | 23:34 |
| pvanhoof | ok :) | 23:34 |
| pvanhoof | well, I saw it. It's cool | 23:35 |
| pvanhoof | it refreshed faster than my symbian nokia phone :) | 23:35 |
| pvanhoof | it does indeed take a few noticeable time-slices to get the screen to redraw | 23:35 |
| pvanhoof | but once drawn, it's absolutely fixed | 23:35 |
| pvanhoof | no emitting light, no energy usage | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | just like paper | 23:36 |
| koen | the wonders of e-ink | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | yeah | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | which is totally perfect for 80% of the use-cases for mobile devices: reading stuff | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | I mean, once my pdf is visible .. I want to read it | 23:36 |
| pvanhoof | right? | 23:37 |
| * koen still prints all pdfs | 23:37 | |
| pvanhoof | history soon | 23:37 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 23:37 |
| Tak-lab | sucks for reading stuff in the dark... | 23:37 |
| * koen has a 4d magile with a traffic cone next to his bed | 23:37 | |
| pvanhoof | Tak-lab, it reflects light coming from anywhere (like a piece of white paper) | 23:37 |
| koen | s/magile/maglite/ | 23:38 |
| Tak-lab | ok, I can't read paper in the dark either | 23:38 |
| pvanhoof | in fact, if the display is the source of light .. it's much harder for your eyes to make the fonts scharp | 23:38 |
| pvanhoof | which is the main reason why you probably prefer reading a piece of paper over reading from a screen | 23:38 |
| pvanhoof | you will get tired much faster if you are looking at a light-source | 23:39 |
| wasabi | So, it's great for paper. | 23:39 |
| wasabi | But for a cell phone or PDA, it's not. | 23:39 |
| wasabi | Because I like using my PDA in the dark too. ;) | 23:40 |
| pvanhoof | I can imagine them putting a light-source underneath the screen | 23:40 |
| wasabi | So the question becomes then, what are the use cases, where will you take it? | 23:40 |
| wasabi | Sure. | 23:40 |
| pvanhoof | which you can enable or disable | 23:40 |
| wasabi | So, was it color? | 23:40 |
| wasabi | HIgh res? | 23:40 |
| pvanhoof | no this was gray-scale | 23:40 |
| pvanhoof | but in terms of resolution.. I've seen far far far worse displays in stores selling LCD screens when it comes to readability | 23:41 |
| pvanhoof | I also don't think you should compare pure resolution here | 23:41 |
| pvanhoof | it really makes a big difference, if the screen is not being refreshed nor emits light | 23:41 |
| roope | yeah. printers in the old days printed something like 150dpi but it's totally enouogh for good readability. | 23:42 |
| pvanhoof | indeed | 23:42 |
| wasabi | Does this stuff work fine for active displays though? | 23:42 |
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| wasabi | Or does it blur/suck for them?> | 23:42 |
| pvanhoof | a matrix printer's result was perfectly readable | 23:42 |
| glass_ | matrix printers ftw | 23:42 |
| glass_ | yeah | 23:42 |
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| pvanhoof | yet this is by far better than whatever a matrix printer made | 23:42 |
| pvanhoof | probably better than your average cheap-old inktjet printer too | 23:42 |
| pvanhoof | and this technology is still improving of course | 23:43 |
| pvanhoof | what was not really doable, was watching moving things. Like movies | 23:43 |
| pvanhoof | it really takes time to redraw the screen | 23:44 |
| pvanhoof | you do notice it | 23:44 |
| koen | pvanhoof: can it do partial redraws? | 23:45 |
| pvanhoof | not sure | 23:45 |
| pvanhoof | for example when they where drawing with the stylus | 23:45 |
| pvanhoof | it didn't redraw the entire screen | 23:45 |
| pvanhoof | so I do think it does, yes | 23:45 |
| koen | they could hack X to move xdamage a layer down | 23:45 |
| pvanhoof | perhaps, yes | 23:46 |
| pvanhoof | but anyway, their bottom line was: we want in (in the community) | 23:46 |
| pvanhoof | and my opinion is, well .. this is future tech | 23:47 |
| pvanhoof | period :) | 23:47 |
| pvanhoof | too cool to do nothing with it | 23:47 |
| * koen mails martijn | 23:47 | |
| wasabi | pvanhoof: ANy clue how the N guys are coming with a tinymail based mail app? :) | 23:49 |
| pvanhoof | wasabi ask djcb | 23:50 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 23:50 |
| * koen awaits modest | 23:50 | |
| wasabi | Yeah. I have no real way to read my email on this thing. | 23:50 |
| pvanhoof | I'm just the tinymail dude creating its underlying framework :) | 23:50 |
| pvanhoof | djcb gets to make decisions about releasing and coding modest | 23:51 |
| pvanhoof | and therefore, you should ask him this type of stuff :D | 23:51 |
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| pvanhoof | however, I do know that things will be released faster if you help me ;) | 23:51 |
| wasabi | heh | 23:51 |
| wasabi | of course. | 23:51 |
| pvanhoof | of course indeed :) | 23:51 |
| wasabi | well, as the tinymail guy... think there's a chance of moving the backends out of process some day? | 23:53 |
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| wasabi | im sure you could implement 4 differnet interfaces in tinymail and make that happen. | 23:53 |
| pvanhoof | making tinymail a service? | 23:53 |
| wasabi | But are you planning on it? Yeah. | 23:53 |
| wasabi | Ya know, so you can have email notification popups. | 23:54 |
| wasabi | Without having to have a UI on screen. | 23:54 |
| wasabi | Or a separate connection, etc. | 23:54 |
| pvanhoof | right, that's indeed tinymail as a service | 23:54 |
| pvanhoof | this is something that an application developer would do on top of tinymail | 23:54 |
| pvanhoof | the service being the application that you are building | 23:55 |
| wasabi | Well, technically "an application developer can do anything on top of tinymail" | 23:55 |
| pvanhoof | tinymail itself is a lower layer then | 23:55 |
| wasabi | Except that you do have sample UI's. | 23:55 |
| wasabi | And I'd suspect if you wanted your sample UIs to work that way you'd have to do the work. :) | 23:55 |
| pvanhoof | well the ui's only use the interfaces of tinymail | 23:55 |
| pvanhoof | so if you make a remote proxy that implements such an interface by asking a service for it | 23:56 |
| pvanhoof | and let that remote proxy implement the same interface, the same ui components should (in theory) work with it | 23:56 |
| pvanhoof | this is an idea that the OLPC people are experimenting with, btw | 23:57 |
| pvanhoof | and do both the service and the client instances in python over dbus then | 23:57 |
| wasabi | Interesting. | 23:57 |
| wasabi | That would be very nice. =) | 23:57 |
| pvanhoof | since python makes it possible to gain methods and stuff on an instance over dbus | 23:57 |
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| pvanhoof | well, that part is my idea | 23:57 |
| pvanhoof | :) | 23:58 |
| pvanhoof | the idea of doing-it-as-a-service is something .. well it's nobodies idea. it's a proposal | 23:58 |
| wasabi | Yeah. I suspect Modest will have to do that in some fashion... for the left side menu that shows top 5 mails. | 23:58 |
| wasabi | ANd notifications, etc. | 23:58 |
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| wasabi | I guess all your UI side interfaces are smart enough to have the backend moved out of process without being even touched? | 23:59 |
| pvanhoof | yes | 23:59 |
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