IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2006-11-10

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MooxHi there from 77000:06
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zumbi_i dont have http access. can somebody tell me how to get root on n770?01:46
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Taknew releases at
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spaetzhi ferenc10:18
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tigertgreetings from the helsinki public transport ;)10:40
ferenctigert: 3G or public WLAN?10:41
tigert3G this time10:42
tigertbuses dont have wlan yet10:42
ferenci noticed that around the railwaystation in Helsinki city you have free wifi.10:43
ferenccould not test it for long though10:43
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AD-N770good morning10:46
tigertyea. an there are a lot of this free "linksys" network hotspots ;^)10:47
JaffaMorning, all10:48
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tigertheya jaffa10:50
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bergieI wonder if this feature will end up being used... now the new Maemo application catalog is able to pull documentation pages about an app from Maemo Wiki and link them based on tags10:58
bergieso if the "unix name" of Maemo Mapper is "maemo-mapper", and you tag a wiki page with that name, it is automatically listed in app catalog10:58
ferencwe got to replicate the stuff to today11:00
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inzNo-oooo, don't lose the "sub folder", the foo. is so cool ;)11:02
dwdIs there an embedded HTML viewer on Maemo? I need to display HTML email properly, so it'd be useful to be able to intercept image requests (and other sub-requests caused by page rendering)11:21
partIMHO there is no way to display html email properly11:22
dwdpart: As a statement of principle, I agree, but in my more pragmatic moments, I still think I ought to try. :-)11:22
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dwdI'm writing in Python, so so far, the best I can do is use the htmllib.HTMLParser, and write the *slightly* prettier results into a gtk.TextView. gtkhtml2 would be better. I don't want things like JavaScript for obvious reasons.11:27
partevery email client should be exploitable with javascript11:28
dwdpart: I'm not trying to make it compatible with Outlook, though.11:29
inzdwd, gtkhtml3 is here, but dunno of python bindings11:31
inzii  gtkhtml0       3.9.1-1osso9   GtkHTML shared library without Gnome depende11:32
dwdinz: Doesn't seem to be any Python bindings.11:33
tigerthtml mail is nice to have when you need it, but javascript, yeah, I agree. that doesnt belong there. can of worms.11:36
dwdtigert: Just too difficult to police, IMHO. But yes, inlined images and more natural hyperlinks are useful for a certain class of message.11:37
tigertits like yeah, mailing lists and usenet works, but wiki's are also nice to have11:38
tigertman, I havent used usenet for years though11:38
dwdtigert: Never got into it. I was a telnet BBS geek for years, though. :-)11:39
* dwd notes that virtually nobody has even heard of those now.11:39
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inzDial-in BBS were way cooler11:45
dwdinz: Never were many in the UK, and the atmosphere was very different, too - we always paid for local calls by the "unit", then, so nobody hung around on them.11:46
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dwdinz: Telnet BBSs got quite big in the UK when our academic network switched from X.* to TCP/IP.11:47
dwd(Strangely, in my day job, I actually work on the X.* software that ran parts of the old academic network. It now does TCP/IP as well, of course)11:48
inzThe first modem we had was a 2400 baud Nokia. We (me and my brother) got our parents quite pissed with the phone bill. =)11:49
dwdinz: My brother had a 2400 baud, then a 9600 baud. My parents got a 14k4, and he got really jealous. But that was nothing compared to when my parents splashed out a a 40M hard disk.11:51
inzOur computer had a 60M!11:53
inzEverybody else had "just" 40M. =)11:53
dwdFeh. You'll *never* fill that!11:53
* suihkulokki remembers someone whining on how useless 2400 baud modems are11:54
suihkulokki"comeon, it rolls text faster than you can read!"11:54
dwdsuihkulokki: Ah, they were cool - first modems I couldn't out-type.11:55
dwdUnless remote echo was on, of course. (Telnet BBSes used to run at a typical latency of around 30 seconds, sometimes more.)11:55
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florian_kc good morning12:31
Jaffalo florian_kc12:40
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ferencgood morning  florian_kc13:10
florian_kchi ferenc13:10
ferenci did never get bakc to you on gforge. sorry :(13:12
florian_kcferenc: np, i didn't even notice - too busy this week :-(13:13
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tigertflorian_kc: I saw your blog13:32
tigertsounded busy indeed13:32
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florian_kctigert: well... thats only an additional (and annoying) addition to a pile of open tasks here13:34
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timelessanyone here ever have trouble copying from notes to browser when notes is background killed ? :)14:02
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spaetzflorian, are you the GPE guy? Did I read that right that gpe can sync to/from ical calendars?14:21
spaetzThat would be perfect for me.14:22
florian_kcspaetz: well... yes, i'm one of the gpe guys :)14:22
florian_kcspaetz: its one of new features neal implemented lately, but i must admit that i don't know with which servers it works properly and what the open issues are.14:24
koenit uses libsoup14:24
koenso anything libsoup can talk to should work14:24
florian_kci hope so :-)14:25
spaetzthanks for the info. I'll try it with icalx.xom14:28
florian_kcspaetz: please let me know if it works14:29
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spaetzflorian_kc: should the latest deb in the kernelconcepts already work with libsoup?15:10
spaetzAlso, still points to :-)15:10
florian_kcspaetz: yes15:11
florian_kcspaetz: oh, i need to fix this :-) thanks!15:12
_follower_not to start a religious fight here or anything, :-) but has anyone had success creating a microemacs or similar install for Maemeo?15:17
spaetz_follower_: not to start a religious fight here or anything: but do you think a 770 without META chars would be likely to use emacs on?15:20
spaetzmake tht META keys...15:20
_follower_i was waiting for that :-)15:20
_follower_i'm wanting it for when i'm ssh'd in...15:20
_follower_and i assure you a os x laptop does have the required keys... :-P15:21
spaetz_follower_: I know I use emacs on my OS X box all the time :-)15:23
spaetzflorian_kc: at least subsribing to calendars on icalx went fine. Thanks for your moral support15:24
spaetzDo I see it correct that I can either subsribe OR publish a calendar but not sync in both directions?15:24
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florian_kcspaetz: nice - iirc it should work in both directions15:28
florian_kcbrb, need breakfast15:28
_follower_spaetz: if os x had a fuse/sshfs implementation i wouldn't be so concerned... :-/15:29
spaetz_follower_: yep, that would be nice. The integrated vi sucks badly. Always corrputs the screen...15:31
_follower_yeah, i'd noticed that.15:32
_follower_i was contemplating writing a quick and dirty script to monitor a file/directory and copy it accross--guess i could use rsync for that...15:32
spaetzflorian_kc: I do get an error dialog saying: no such table: todo_urn. I don't know if that is an Apple ical thing.15:34
_follower_so, i'm using pygtk stuff and have:15:35
_follower_self.window = hildon.Window()15:35
_follower_self.window.connect("button-press-event", self.onButtonPress)15:35
_follower_in an attempt to get stylus or thumb presses15:35
_follower_but i don't get any events occurring--should i be putting something in the window first?15:36
_follower_(hardware key presses work fine when hooking ""key-press-event")15:36
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spaetzwell, subscribing to the icalx calendar works fine, publishing not. Good enough for now.15:42
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vidarino_follower_: i'm not sure window objects can take button events just like that. you may have to put an eventbox in it.15:53
vidarinoi remember mucking around with that some time ago.15:54
_follower_vidarino: ok, thanks, i'll look into it...15:54
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_follower_vidarino: cool, thanks for that. an eventbox seems to do the trick and gives me stylus and thumb events...16:02
vidarinocool. :)16:02
vidarinono prob.16:02
dwd_follower_: ANy chance you could make a note of what sort of things you find with this, and let the world know (your blog would be a reasonable place)?16:08
* _follower_ looks guilty16:08
_follower_I suppose I *should*... :-)16:08
_follower_i'm working on a custom UI control type thing so i should be able to document it in that16:09
dwd_follower_: It would be rather nice. I'm sure I could use such information in my pygtk stuff, too.16:09
_follower_i'll see what i can do...16:09
dwd_follower_: Ta.16:09
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vidarinoi'm pretty sure it's documented somewhere, but it's not exactly obivous.16:20
vidarinoi wish gtk spat out a warning when one tried to connect to unsuitable signals, though.16:20
_follower_yeah, that'd be helpful.16:21
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Jaffalo koen16:35
koenhey Jaffa16:36
spaetzinz: was your mail a friendly way of saying handwriting sucks for xterm?16:41
spaetzIMHO it doesn't work at all16:42
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shaprJaffa: Any idea if btsco or bluetooth stereo music is planned for the near future/17:45
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inzspaetz, yes =)17:54
_follower__ianal and all that, but, as a matter of interest, is there actually someone within Nokia that understands why "the community" has an issue with the source-less firware release?17:56
inzspaetz, with mh-version of libvte you can write stuff that supports backspace17:57
mgedminkonttori: I've built fbreader-maemo2 0.7.4n+mg2-1 that should fix finger tap scrolling on the new OS200617:59
mgedminI haven't upgraded yet, so I'd be happy if somebody tested it and reported whether the fix works17:59
mgedmin(upgraded to OS2006.2, that is)18:00
spaetzinz: now that is good to know. I wonder if there shouldn't be more tips and tricks in the wiki like this one...18:03
inzspaetz, well, using the mh version of osso-xterm automatically installs the mh version of vte.18:04
koen_follower__: apparently not18:04
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_follower__koen: what's even more disturbing is that the lawyers who are apparently holding up the source release for "legal reasons" appear not to know enough to stop the binary release as well.. :-/18:06
_follower__hopefully someone will explain it to them nicely...18:06
koengpl code + nokia code = gpl code18:06
koenbinary = illegal withot source18:06
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Takfor some value of +18:06
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shapr_follower__: Is the new firmware image sourceless?18:26
Jaffa(well, some bits)18:26
* Jaffa tries to not cause another flamewar.18:26
shaprI keep trying to stay out of this, but I have a strong urge to start freemo or whatever.18:26
shaprYeah, I don't want a flamewar either, I just want results :-)18:27
_follower__i think that's true for most people here18:27
koendistributing linux kernels without source is illegal18:27
JaffaIndeed. If nothing else it could be a jolt to Nokia that drip-fed releases for which we should be grateful, but then moan about lack of community involement isn't a viable situation.18:27
koenexcept in finland apparently18:27
_follower__i just hope nokia(ns) is smart enough to actually listen18:28
_follower__and recognise we're trying to help them out... by "doing the right thing" (a.k.a. obeying the law... :-) )18:28
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spaetz_follower__: it's not like the kernel source should contain secret 3rd party IP that needs to be looked at by lawers... *sigh* well, well18:31
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* spaetz slaps himself for using the dreaded oversimplifying IP word again18:31
koen_follower__: If only I had copyrightable bits in the kernel.....18:32
Jaffakoen: I bet Motorola do.18:32
_follower__i'm just amazed that their lawyers seem to be ignorant of the implications...18:33
_follower__it's not like this scenario hasn't happened before with other companies...18:33
JussiPAs long as nobody sues, they don't really care.18:33
TakI'm surprised FSF Europe hasn't said anything...18:34
_follower__"they" being the lawyers or Nokia?18:34
JussiPLawyers of Nokia, I mean.18:35
_follower__you really think Nokia's lawyers are that stupid?18:35
_follower__*cough* ill-informed.18:35
koen_follower__: there's no source, so they *are* that stupid18:36
JussiPThey also have priority queues.18:36
koenit's easy as hell: "don't distribute binaries before the sources have been cleared"18:36
_follower__koen: i guess so...18:36
JussiPHas someone done a written request to get the sources?18:37
koendoes email count as written?18:37
dwdSorry, I missed this - are you saying that there's some breach of the GPL in the 770 kernel?18:38
koendwd: nokia hasn't released the sources for their new firmware18:38
dwdkoen: Oh. I'd best let my kernel developer friends know, then.18:39
_follower__oh, dear, it's never good when someone one is trying to help uses the word "whine"... :-( (see: mailing list) I guess "they" don't get it then...18:40
* Jaffa has no doubt they will, of course.18:40
_follower__Jaffa: they will what?18:40
Jaffa_follower__: indeed, I try not to take @nokians flaming me personally ;-)18:40
Jaffa_follower__: sorry, a general "no doubt they will [release the sources (eventually)]"18:41
_follower__yeah, I assume they'll release them too--but we also know that "eventually" will eventually get them in trouble.18:42
koenbut before 'eventually' they are not allowed to distribute binaries18:42
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Jaffakoen: indeed (but then I appreciate the new release ;-))18:42
mgedmincan't... resist... flaming...18:43
koenI still wonder why the userspace .debs haven't been updated18:43
koenI dislike the 'all or nothing' upgrades18:43
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_follower__...and not being able to release the binaries might well be a good motivator for "internal process change".18:43
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dwdIs it all in the thread: or am I missing more of it?18:49
dwdOh, no, it's
Jaffadwd: this too -
Jaffamgedmin: good not flamey email :)18:53
* dwd lets a kernel developer know, just in case it matters to him.18:58
dwdA rather key point here is that if nobody does kick up a fuss over these things, then potentially it could weaken the GPL's standing in law, effectively moving toward the "GPL is public domain" argument that SCO proposed.19:00
Takthat's ridiculous19:01
dwdWhat is?19:01
Takby that argument (gpl is public domain), copyright is completely invalid and *everything* is public domain19:01
koennokia legal department19:01
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dwdTak: Oh, I agree with you, but it's still an argument that some GPL violators raise, and if GPL violations go ignored, then we do genuinely run the risk that some judge somewhere might sympathize.19:02
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Takthat's the key problem right there19:03
Takjudges are often idiots19:03
Tak(present company excluded)19:03
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_follower_there's judges here? :-D19:09
* Tak shrugs19:09
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_follower__i heartly don't recommend dialup... :-(19:35
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tkoso, did someone actually take the GPL offer and use it, or are you just theoretically interested in the sources?19:44
tkothere's a significant difference between the device (software) and the sdk19:45
partyes, the difference is big19:45
parttko: I hope someone did use the offer19:46
_follower__tko: i think there's two parts to it: 1) it's a legal obligation 2) it's useful.19:46
tko_follower__, there's no legal obligation for the sdk19:46
parthaving the kernel source or the wireless driver available would be The Right Thing19:46
_follower__tko: i don't know enough about the sdk to know, but undoubtly there is for the firmware...19:46
tkoall you need to do is ask... (i.e. take up on the offer) -- or wait for the maemo sdk release19:47
_follower__i belive we've been explictly told that the source is not available.19:47
tkoI haven't checked but my feeling is that no one has taken the gpl offer19:47
koenbut people have asked (see mailinglist thread)19:47
tkokoen, there's a difference between mails on a mailing list and invoking the gpl offer19:49
koen"all you need to do is ask.'19:49
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koenthat's what you said19:49
tkofor one I very much doubt our lawyers are following the list19:49
tkodo you stop reading on the first period or something?19:50
partasking on a mailinglist isn't the same as using the gpl offer19:51
tkoit's comparable to going to the janitor of a bank to make a withdrawal19:51
partread the license text on the product19:51
parttko: btw, sdk has to provide sources for the parts that are not included anywhere else19:52
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tkopart, sdk has to provide sources for everything (gpl) the sdk distributes, of course.. similar gpl offer still applies, though with different scope naturally19:54
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tkobtw, one clear indication about no one taking the gpl offer would be lack of comments about the email source code :)19:56
parttko: afaik sdk distributes sources for it's own gpl'd stuff in the repos already, what's in the product is in the product and some of that source is available with the sdk as well, but that's just coincidental19:56
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tkopart, exactly19:57
tkothough having stuff in the repo does not excuse you from not shipping sources when someone comes to ask19:58
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Jaffatko: so far, I don't think anyone's wanted to officially invoke the GPL offer so that the "goodwill" which Nokia seems so far of isn't damaged.19:58
JaffaOfficially invoking it when the legal team isn't happy could result in nastiness to the legal team's view of open source and GPL within Nokia. Which could damage Maemo.19:59
spaetztko: it should not be necessary to write to the nokia lawers to get the source. Going to the bank analogy it would be like:20:00
nomiswould invoking the GPL offer really mean writing to lawyers?20:00
spaetzyou would need to have to go to the bank director just to withdraw money from your acount when there's an ATM outside20:00
tkospaetz, there's an address where to send the gpl offer request, and it is *not* maemo-developers20:00
partspaetz: do read the license20:01
nomisJust ask for the stuff and implicitely let the legal team know that there is a good reason to hurry up.20:01
partI'm sure they are working on it20:02
nomisand I bet that they read the GPL a thousand times over before even announcing anything, so they knew what they were about to enter.20:02
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tkothe only legal obligation to my knowledge is the gpl offer. the sdk is essentially a separate "product" and therefore different requirements. last time I heard there was some essential documentation missing20:06
partsome of the documentation in maemo 2.0 is outdated, but that's not a license issue20:13
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partI think I'll call it a night and go get some dinner20:22
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_follower___is that kernel sources I spy? :-)20:38
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tkoheh, I find it weird that in tableteer the second question on the top10 list is 'How do I set up my email account?' ...20:44
tkobut then again, that's a step you need to take before experiencing the email client... :)20:44
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tigerttko: but the real question is: do you even want to?21:26
tigertgmail works :)21:26
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tkowell, you can never make webmail as fast/efficient/integrated/convenient as native client21:31
tkothough I'm not saying our email client would be any of those21:31
_follower___there's a challenge if i ever heard one... :-)21:31
tkoI'd like to see you implement offline mode...21:33
shaprYeah, that's why I like the built-in client.21:33
_follower___it really depends on the browser then...21:33
shaprI can write my replies and leave them in the outbox until I run across another open wifi point.21:34
shaprI was using Cingular's unlimited GPRS plan, but I was getting about 300 baud and that's not worth $20 USD a month.21:34
tigerttko: gmail is very close21:35
shaprI was hoping the soon-to-be-released UMTS would let me do VoIP from my phone, but that's out too. The providers won't allow it.21:35
shaprSo I have a new idea... wifi-torrent :-)21:36
tigerttko: but then again, I totally loathe email21:36
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tigertwhat gmail has is this idea of combining jabber discussions and emails etc into one discussion thread21:36
tigertthat rokcs21:36
tigertrocks even21:36
tigertshapr: voip over 3G works just fine21:36
shaprI figure wifi-torrent is where I setup a website where wifi access point owners can join by putting in the encryption key for their AP. Once their AP and key is verified, they can then access the APs of all other members.21:37
shaprSo I'd be able to wander to the next city and use the AP of another member.21:37
shaprIf that ever got enough coverage, I could get rid of my phone entirely and use my 770 instead.21:38
spaetzshapr: sounds like fon, just non-commercial21:42
shaprtigert: From what I've heard of the soon-to-be-available UMTS in the USA, it'll ports blocked etc. so that VoIP won't be available.21:42
shaprI hadn't heard of before.21:43
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spaetzit's a European thing21:43
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shaprIt makes sense.21:43
spaetzThey rip off most of the profits though (which non-members pay for access)21:44
shaprI am unsurprised.21:45
tigertshapr: yea, I guess phone companies are scared of losing voice calls :P21:46
spaetztigert: they are right to fear :-)21:46
_follower___but their rates are so *reasonable*...21:47
* spaetz *coughs*21:47
tigertwell, if they block it, someone else will offer the same service people demand21:51
_follower___i believe that's the theory... :-)21:53
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spaetztigert: that would work i markets were perfect.21:54
spaetzbut if the someone elses are all buddies, this becomes a bit unrealistic21:55
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dwdFor the panel to chew on, one kernel developer has now asked Nokia about the kernel source.22:10
_follower___dwd: did you see the link on the list?22:11
dwdOh, and they've now released it, half an hour after said developer asked. Probably coincidental.22:11
dwd_follower___: Just got to that point in my stupidly oversized mailbox. :-)22:12
shaprtigert: imho, 'mobile phone' companies are just mobile ISPs.22:13
tigertmobile operators you mean22:13
tigertbut yeah22:13
tigertand many of them are that, but they don't realize the price needs to be more reasonable22:14
tigertonce flatrate 3G and EDGE is widely available, the mobile networking won't really catch22:14
tigertI use mobile internet very much22:14
dwdtigert: And not having really short NAT timeouts which penalize non-HTTP connections would also help a tad.22:14
tigertbut I would never do that if I had to pay for it myself22:14
tigertsince the major telco's here charge you per megabyte22:15
tigertits just totally stupid22:15
tigertdwd: yea22:15
tigertdwd: well, having Screen and irssi on a pretty active channels helps :)22:15
dwdtigert: Same here. But you can get 10M cheaply, and that's easily enough for me to have decent mobile email.22:15
tigertdwd: yea, but mobile emails is not what I mean22:15
shaprYeah, I thought the unlimited data for $20 a month would be great... until I used the painfully flaky connection at 300 baud22:15
tigertjabber, surfing, weather, net radio etc22:16
dwdtigert: Full on web-browsing is certainly expensive.22:16
dwdtigert: Jabber's cheap. Much cheaper than SMS, and if you have compression on the go, it's even cheaper.22:16
tigertdwd: what about 128kbit mp3 streaming  then? :)22:16
tigertI rather want  than some top10 pop chart22:17
dwdtigert: Yeah, my brother's involved with audio streaming over mobiles. I have no idea if anyone actually listens, though.22:17
shaprI really really really want a mobile operator interface widget that has bluetooth and 3G *only* then I can use my Nokia 770 without having to deal with the irritations of closed and flaky phones.22:17
tigertbut it needs to be cheaper22:17
tigertand the money needs to come from the services22:17
tigertnot from the bandwidth22:17
shaprI wouldn't mind paying for my bandwidth if it were cheap.22:17
tigertyea. if it was fixed cost per month you know22:17
shaprBut I expect to use several GB a month.22:17
tigertbut this "ugh, this will cost me.." -feeling is what cuts down the usage22:18
shapryeah, I didn't have that feeling until my first US Bill from Cingular >:-(22:18
dwdtigert: For web browsing and high-bandwidth stuff, yes. I've ceased to care about email and jabber, though.22:18
shaprThey charge my half a dollar per minute that I go over my allowed voice minutes.22:18
shaprWhy the heck am I buying a separate voice service? It's all data!22:19
tigertdwd: yeah22:19
shaprAnyone know if a UMTS phone from Europe will function on the future US UMTS networks?22:20
dwdshapr: Might do, the differences would be frequency, I think. Most EU phones are tri-band, though.22:21
tigertlike, sonera has this 100MB/month, 15,90 EUR22:24
tigert100M goes very quick if you surf even a bit22:24
tigertthanks to banner ads etc22:24
TakI forget, does opera have some sort of ad-blocking goodness?22:27
suihkulokkiwhy would anyone use sonera :)22:27
shaprThere's a privoxy deb22:27
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_follower___hey, here's a handy tip: in gtk if you set the foreground colour to white somewhere, changed text in labels tends not to be visible... :-/22:31
shaprThe GPS in the OpenMoko phone will be nice to integrate with the Nokia 770.22:39
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* shapr considers buying a GNU USRP and just writing the whole stack himself.22:42
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koenthe USRP is sweet22:44
* koen wants one22:44
shaprme too.22:45
koenthe reminds me22:45
shaprOn downside, my phone would then fill up much of my backpack. On the upside, I'd be able to fix bugs myself.22:46
* koen registers for the signal processing course next trimester22:46
shaprAnd I wouldn't have to deal with idiotic phone salespeople who are convinced of various stupidities like "Our SIM cards are unique to our provider, won't work in your phone." "You can only use the phone we sell, your already purchased phone will not work."22:47
shaprI got to say things like "I know my phone works on your network, I've already used it with my Swedish subscription." and stuff like "Ok, so why don't your sim cards look any different? Have you actually tried it?"22:48
shaprThe moral of that story is that nobody in phone or service sales has any clue whatsoever. Also, if you haven't used google to research the phone/provider then you get what you deserve.22:49
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Taks/phone or service //22:50
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shaprI already know someone who wrote 802.11 for the Gnu USRP via Haskell... How much more complex can it be to do 3G?22:59
* shapr is joking...23:00
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_follower__just to prove i don't just sit on my arse and contribute to GPL chat-fests, :-) if you're into Python you might want to take a look at a scroll wheel widget proof of concept I've been working on: <> You'll need to run it from the CLI...23:07
tkoneeds screenshots :)23:09
_follower__image a black circle with a smaller blackcircle inside it :-)23:09
tkoah, ipod wheel.. I was thinking mouse wheel23:10
_follower__ok, so apparently I *did* need a screenshot :-)23:10
Taknow if only it was in C... :-P23:11
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_follower__Tak: Feel free to port it :-)23:12
_follower__where does the screenshot app dump its images?23:12
TakI always use the CLI one that dumps them where you specify23:12
_follower__for the record: ~/MyDocs/.images23:13
Takmakes sense23:13
* Tak sends himself a link and a copy of the code for future boredom porting sessions :-P23:14
_follower__tko: :-P23:15
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_follower__Tak: I wouldn't advise reading the code...23:16
shaprI want an analog clock widget where I can drag the hands around.23:16
Takeh, python is painful no matter what23:16
_follower__isn't there already a demo for that? actually, no, i think i was thinking of a svg demo23:16
shaprYeah, I prefer Haskell.23:16
tko_follower__, you might to chat with MDK -- he has something similar, in C I think23:17
_follower__Tak: i don't find it so...23:17
TakI know - just my opinion23:17
tkoshapr, heh, I've been trying to understand haskell for a few days now23:17
shaprtko: Really? Got any questions?23:17
_follower__tko: wouldn't suprise me, i did do a search a while back but didn't find anything23:17
tkoshapr, other than wtf, not yet really :)23:18
_follower__aCiDBaSe: why are there no public trackers as pymaemo?23:18
shaprHeh, want to see the Haskell intro I wrote for ADHD readers?23:18
* shapr is an ADHD reader btw23:18
tkoI kind of get it, but it's far from being as obvious as python, for example23:18
tkoshapr, sounds interesting23:19
shaprI thought that when I started, since I moved from Python to Haskell for my primary language.23:19
tkocan't recall seeing in the haskell wiki23:19
shaprYou're probably looking at the new wiki. Much of the content in the old wiki is not portable to the new wiki because of licensing problems.23:20
shaprAlso, you may want to try #haskell for questions. #haskell is a seriously cool place to hang out23:20
_follower__MDK: do you have an ipod-esque scrollwheel implementation in C?23:20
shaprBut realize I'm biased because I started #haskell more than five years ago...23:20
_follower__shapr: surely you'd still manage to be impartial and unbiased?23:21
shaprI try...23:21
shaprI gave up being maintainer of #haskell recently because my real life has meant I can't pay as much attention to the community anymore.23:22
shaprBut my job is to doing fulltime Haskell contracting from home, so...23:23
shaprtko: Oh, the ADHD intro -
shaprPart of the reason #haskell is cool is that you get to talk to well known academic researchers in the areas of functional programming, information theory, database theory, etc, etc23:24
shaprI still haven't gotten around to building GHC for Maemo though... I lost the power adapter from big Nokia phone power plug to small power plug :-(23:25
shaprtko: Anyway, if you have any questions about Haskell the language or community, I'd be happy to help.23:26
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tkoshapr, thanks, I'll keep that in mind23:51

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