IRC log of #harmattan for Saturday, 2013-05-04

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Jonnilouisdk: just leave it to 1A charger over night and you should be golden, 500mA wont be enough if battery is empty.00:34
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louisdkJonni: Thanks. I'll try. I've tried this: without any luck. The charger will not recognize my phone, ever after 30+ small charges. On Ubuntu 12.04 x64-bit.00:53
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louisdkI've attached my Nokia N9 to a wall charger for a couple hours. It will still not boot.03:44
rikaneelouisdk: tried the 'flasher -i' trick?03:46
louisdkrikanee: Yes and 30+ mini charges. Source: No recognition.03:49
rikaneeSounds like it isn't holding a charge anymore.03:50
louisdkI've disassembled the device. The battery has been laying for some mouths but I got the LED flash light when inserting it. I wonder if it could be some slots to the screen not connected correctly and this would keep the device from booting.03:51
rikaneeThe N9 (same with all other Nokia devices) will boot with just the board connected to the battery.03:52
rikaneeBattery damage is a real possibility, and N9 batteries aren't particularly expensive. Might as well try a fresh one.03:53
louisdkrikanee: Anyway to charge the battery externally?03:54
rikaneelouisdk: You can try to hook up a phone battery charger to the three contacts on the BV-5JW03:55
louisdkrikanee: Well. I have this charger: But don't know how/if to charge the BV-5JW with that.04:00
rikaneeGet some wire, and hook up the terminals.04:03
rikaneeIt may be a bit difficult to get them to stick to the tiny pins on that, though.04:04
rikaneeTry to find one with the charging pins fat and exposed, so you can use electrical tape.04:04
louisdkSounds a bit complicated. Maybe I should try to replace my N9 battery with a spare BV-5JW that I have laying round.04:07
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dashin  anyone interested in these games?05:09
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dashin(N9 deb pkg + screen)05:44
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Morpog_PCis it save to replace files in this directory, or will aegis kill my device? /usr/share/themes/base/meegotouch/meegotouchhome/images/16:22
Morpog_PCSfiet_Konstantin, can you answer my above question?16:35
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Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_PC: not sure if it is a good idea at all16:36
Sfiet_Konstantinwhy ?16:36
Morpog_PCtrying to customize launcher a bit16:36
Sfiet_KonstantinI think it is aegis-protected16:37
Morpog_PCThe file I want to edit seems to be added from homescreensettings app16:37
Sfiet_Konstantinso not a good idea16:37
Morpog_PCdamn :(16:37
Morpog_PCis there an overview which areas are aegis-protected anywhere?16:38
Morpog_PCor how can we check if something is aegis protected?16:38
Sfiet_Konstantinactually I don't know that much16:38
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause it is not lib16:38
Sfiet_Konstantinso you might be able to edit it16:38
Sfiet_Konstantinby rethinking it16:38
Sfiet_KonstantinI don't think that it will be dangerous16:39
Morpog_PCseems refhaslist has all files in it16:40
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Morpog_PCbut where the hell is it located....16:41
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Morpog_PChaven't found /usr/share in there at all16:44
infobotmayIedit () { grep "`basename $1`" /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist && echo "probably not" && return; echo "edit if you feel venturous"; }17:11
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Paliwho and how kill you if you edit refhashlist?17:14
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infobot , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or, or
DocScrutinizer05and how?17:32
infobotmethinks malf is
Palino, I mean how aegis now that that config file was changed?18:13
Paliif somebody edit /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist manually how aegis will now that?18:15
Morpog_PCno no18:15
Morpog_PCi was talking about a file to edit which is referenced in refhaslist18:15
Paliabove is my question :-)18:16
Morpog_PCturned out that the file wasn't in refhashlist, so it's safe to edit it18:16
Morpog_PCaegis can't18:16
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Morpog_PCresult of my modding:
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robertjwDoc:  that .../Security_guide link is old.  It redirects to the generic Platform Guide.18:35
DocScrutinizer05robertjw: well, you noticed that *every* link on that page gets redirected to <self> ?18:43
robertjwmy parnoid part wants to assign a meaning to this18:44
DocScrutinizer05this is Nokia's outstanding awesome Meego/Harmattan support18:45
robertjwI like Richard Stallman's rename of "Trusted computing" to "Treacherous computing"18:46
DocScrutinizer05RMS is not exactly the reference for me18:48
robertjwhe's been controversial, but he often makes some good points.  I'll cut him some slack.  :)18:49
robertjwthis whole issue of "locked hardware" really pushes my buttons.  The vendors call it "trusted computing", to imply something good, but in fact it is the vendor not trusting the customer.18:51
SpeedEvilit depends.18:53
robertjwexpand your thought please18:53
SpeedEvilthere are valid arguments for trusted computing at least somewhat opaque from the user18:53
SpeedEvilfor example, running credit card secret algorithms18:53
robertjwI'm listening, all the arguments I've heard so far favor the vendor at the expense of the user.18:54
robertjwthe algorithms don't have to be secret in order to be secure.  Reference:  ssh18:55
SpeedEvilalso, owner and person with the device at the moment are not the same18:55
SpeedEvilssh does a different thing18:55
SpeedEvilbeing able to clone your credit card is bad18:55
robertjwin my view, openness improves security because of all the eyes watching it18:56
SpeedEvilumm... that doesn't work, if there is a secret key that needs to remain secret18:56
robertjwyou were discussing algorithms18:57
SpeedEvilthe code that normally runs on the credit card to do with18:57
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robertjwDoc: enjoyed your youtube link.  That's a bookmarker...19:03
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DocScrutinizer05if there's a secret in something that *I* must not know, then what a basket is handing that object with the embedded secret to me anyway?19:16
DocScrutinizer05anything with embedded secrets has a wrong and broken business model19:18
DocScrutinizer05or usecase concept19:19
DocScrutinizer05in the end it's always about depriving me from my natural control over what I can do with any such object19:20
robertjwI agree, and I would even put the credit card example into this.  In the case of the credit card, the secret is the money, and the money belongs to someone.  The one who owns the money should hold its secret so that NOone can take his money.19:20
DocScrutinizer05be it copying of mp3/movie data, or dongling of sw to hw, or whatever19:20
DocScrutinizer05what's wrong with cloning my credit card?19:21
DocScrutinizer05it's dirt simple19:21
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DocScrutinizer05what you also can clone but better don't share is the secret PIN to approve any transaction with the credit vard19:22
DocScrutinizer05you keep that in your wetware19:22
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DocScrutinizer05and it's absolutely irrelevant of there's one or 200 card that have same data on their magnet stripe19:23
robertjwso long as the act of cloning does not "create" additional money19:23
DocScrutinizer05then your architecture is terribly broken19:24
robertjwthe issue of locks in general comes down to one entity locking something from another so you have to ask who is doing the locking and who is being locked out19:26
DocScrutinizer05aegis locks out users, telling us "it's a benefit for you, since no malware can do what you can't do"19:27
DocScrutinizer05that's BS19:27
robertjwthe issue of locks has been cloaked in clever terminology, vendors use locks to claim "security" and users feel good, while in fact they are talking about their own security from the user19:27
DocScrutinizer05such type of lock finally *always* is about depriving users of their natiral powers19:28
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly19:28
robertjwwith a lock there is always and inside and an outside.  In this case the vendor is on the inside and the user is on the outside.  Few users see this clearly.19:29
DocScrutinizer05there's definitely ZILCH that can be done by aegis that couldn't be done by a decent traditional permissions handling19:29
DocScrutinizer05except depriving user from his right to poke in his data19:29
DocScrutinizer05aka DRM19:30
robertjwI secure my gnu/linux systems with packet captures for analysis/monitoring and firewall for protection, that coupled with use of heavily peer-reviewed open software.19:31
DocScrutinizer05"no, dude! This movie won't get played back via AV output! embedded screen sure, HDMI, maybe. Not AV though"19:31
DocScrutinizer05"Sorry, you have the permission to listen to this song 3 times. We think you used up that quota"19:31
robertjwin another sense, proprietary closed software is a form of lock.  Only the developer of that software knows what it does.  The proprietary developer holds they key, the user is on the outside.19:32
DocScrutinizer05"what, you want to install a software that does same as our ACME shite, but without nagware banners aka commercials? Sorry, we won't allow that, even while it's your hw"19:33
DocScrutinizer05"your government found the last year's report from greenpeace contains confidential material. Sorry we had to delete it from your library"19:35
robertjwNow you are raising my blood pressure.  :)19:36
DocScrutinizer05"your new browser has a builtin protection function to save you from watching irritating content like wikileaks etc. Please install the update now, as your OS will stop working until you did"19:36
DocScrutinizer05sure, all for our protection19:37
DocScrutinizer05not a single business/company will go for those nonsensical TPM chips, when they really bother about own assets19:39
robertjwHaving said all this, my N9 is the closest I've been able to get to a smartphone that I can secure.  I need three things to secure a system, packet-capture tools for analysis/monitoring, firewall for protection, and a source of open (peer-reviewed) software.  With N9 I have (almost) all three.19:39
robertjwtoo many Android apps are closed and locked to make it securable, and I won't even mention iOS.19:41
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lucidoHi, are there any new harmattan devices, or is there a successor with new hardware for the OS?19:50
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mschlenslucido: no20:09
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loinhello, do i need any special permissions to make my .sh files executable ?22:58
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Jonniloin: normal unix +x bit, but ofcourse if you want to be able to execute them without aegis-exec, then you need to add the sha1sum of the script in refhashlist23:11
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Jonni(usually you just package the scripts in deb file, and let dpkg installer add the sha1sums for you) vs you resign the refhashlist yourself with opensh or similar23:13
Jonnior you just continue calling your scripts with aegis-exec prefix and you dont have to do anything.23:13
loinJonni, i want to execute them without aegis-exec23:16
loinbut they wont work23:16
loinJonni, i have a script in the project, but it won't allow me to execute it23:17
Jonniif you want to execute without aegis-exec, then you need to package them inside a .deb file and allow unknown sources, and install the scripts with dpkg -i yourscriptpackage.deb23:17
loinJonni, i am pretty much doing that but it wont allow me23:18
Jonnior if you have opensh with all capas, you can take sha1sum of your script, manually add the line in refhashlist and resign the list.23:18
Jonniif you try to run scripts without installing them 1st, aegis wont let you run them23:18
Jonniloin: so whats the error message when you dpkg -i ?23:19
loinJonni, no error, the package installs and everything23:19
loinits just that when i want to execute the script, i get a not nice error message23:19
loin"/opt/feelcache/bin/ line 36: can't create /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches: Permission denied"23:19
loinit is the exact same script as the one from another project23:20
Jonniwell thats most likely because vm dir is root owned and your script is running as user23:20
loinand that one can "create" /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches23:20
loin    app.start("/opt/feelcache/bin/", QStringList() << QLatin1String("--3"));23:20
loin/    app.start("/opt/dropcache-mdn/bin/", QStringList() << QLatin1String("--3"));23:20
loinif i run the first line i get that error23:20
Jonni(unless you added aegis manigest in your deb package to make script run as root)23:20
loinif i run the second line, everything is ok23:21
Jonnidid you add aegis manifest to allow root in your deb file?23:22
loinwhere should i do that?23:22
lointhe manifests for the different files23:24
lointhe scripts are the exact same file23:25
loinsame md5sum, same permissions same owner23:25
loinbut still one executes and another one doesn't ...23:26
Jonniso your script is named feelcache and not feelcache.sh23:26
lointhe script is feelcache.sh23:26
Jonniwell that manifest is not giving any permissions to feelcache.sh23:27
Jonniits only giving permissions to feelcache23:27
loinbut why does dropcache execute then?23:27
Jonnido you have full sources to both of the applications?23:28
loinany ideas?23:32
Jonniyes I have the idea :)23:35
Jonniloin: it works because of this
Jonniso your missing aegis manifest for your script :)23:36
Jonni(I just clone dropcache sources and checked)23:36
Jonnicloned even23:36
loinhow did that get there?23:38
Jonniso looks like you pasted the wrong manifest :)23:38
loinJonni, that is so strange23:40
loinwhen i opened it in qt creator23:40
Jonniand at this point, I also have to say that dropping caches doesnt make any sense. As it just makes N9 slower.23:40
loinit just created a regular manifest23:41
loinJonni, i thought so too, but it makes my phone much faster23:41
Jonniyes qt creator assumes and autocreates crap, you should really devel in scratchbox :)23:41
Jonnibut anyways your solution is in here
loinJonni, thank you, i found the file using the file manager23:43
loini really wasn't expecting qt creator to do this to me :)23:43
Jonnithat way script is running as root and it has write permission to vm dir23:43
loinJonni, thank you23:44
loinJonni, if i don't regularly drop the cache23:45
loinit happens too often that my phone just starts swapping crap23:45
loinand it lags like hell23:45
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Jonniwell ofcourse if you happen to run that low on memory then your out of luck, ofcourse you could just disable the ramswap, that way phone will never swap anything :)23:47
loini wonder what would the phone do in such a case23:47
loinwhen it ran out of memory23:47
loinjust kill whatever app is requesting more ram?23:48
Jonnithen out of memory killer would start killing processes23:48
joecoolloin: thanks btw, your log of bricking your n9 trying to remove facebook saved me from bricking mine23:48
loinjoecool, :)23:49
loinjoecool, yw23:49
loinjoecool, i bricked it once trying to rm facebook23:49
lointhen bricked it much harder a second time23:49
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joecooli got facebook removed, just not libqt-facebook, aegis would not let it go23:49
joecoolbetter than nothing i guess23:49
loinever since i did not attempt to rm any "unremovable" apps23:50
loini will most likely remove them again23:50
lointhing is, if you remove things that aegis doesn't want you to remove23:50
loinnever attempt to reset to factory settings23:50
loinor you will get bootloop23:50
joecoolgood to know23:50
loinbut i think it's safe to remove facebook and stuch23:51
joecoolyeah that was really the only one that bugged me being there23:51
Jonnimost of the N9 slowness is because of smart search, most efficient way to make N9 faster and to increase battery life is just to do  "chmod a-x /usr/bin/smartsearch"23:52
loinwell, i removed skype / tracker / user info / twitter / facebook / music store / drive / youtube / google / caldav / flickr / picassa / sip23:52
loinJonni, when is smartsearch used?23:53
joecooldamn goin light there23:53
Jonniloin: it runs always in background when you idle. End user only uses it if you use that global search fuctionality (I never use that)23:53
joecoolyeah i probably could do without music store and flickr, the rest i use a lot of23:53
loinjoecool, i don't use all that stuff and i didn't want it so why not throw it away?23:53
joecooloh and twitter, i don't use that23:54
loinJonni, i don't use global search23:54
loinwho wants that?23:54
Jonnimy N9 only eats 7mA when idle, mostly because I disabled smartsearch.23:54
loin7ma? not bad at all23:55
loinmine uses 1123:55
joecoolhow do you measure?23:55
loinjoecool, "battery usage"23:55
Jonnijoecool: I have a script that updates image on low powermode screen23:55
Jonniand I just read it on the screen23:55
joecoolah cool23:55
loinJonni, isn't that a bit too extreme?23:56
joecoolonly had a few days so far with the N9, a lot to pick up, overall pretty happy, i got it primarily for battery life23:56
joecoolsip eats a TON of battery on android23:56
loinjoecool, i got the n9 because of the awesome design23:57
lointhe physical device design and the swipe interface design23:57
loinit's just so stylish :)23:57
loini knew it was sluggish like hell23:58
joecoolwell that too23:58
joecooltbh, it's not actually that sluggish23:58
lointhat was what was stopping me from buying one23:58
loinjoecool, did you ever have a nexus device?23:59
joecoolloin: no, i've had some extensive time demoing them though23:59
loinjoecool, well, my previous phone was a nexus23:59
joecoolmy two other current devices are the xperia ion and the htc hd223:59
loinand it loaded really fast23:59
loinon the n923:59
loinyou click23:59
Jonnibut anyways its just a hint that if you dont use global search icon, then chmod a-x will make a big improvement in your life :)23:59
loinwait like 5 seconds then it loads23:59

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