IRC log of #harmattan for Monday, 2012-02-06

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npmincase anybody wants it: :-)00:19
npmhm actually it had too much info in it00:20
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npmfor i in `qdbus | grep '^ [a-z]*'` \n do \n echo $i ---------------------------------------------------- \n qdbus $i \n done00:22
npmdo your own00:22
bluesleefrals: what i am doing wrong if the screen is flickering, i have some disturbing lines though i only use 3 colors, white, black and magenta00:23
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npmAnybody know how to use dbus to send email attachments and any comments on
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itsnotabigtrucknpm: i thought they got rid of modest on harmattan03:47
itsnotabigtruckthe solution probably has something to do with qmf (qt messaging framework)03:48
itsnotabigtruckno clue if that actually uses dbus under the hood03:48
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npmi just want an easy way to preload a draft into the mailer w/ some content (transcribed voice entry) and the original voice note audio.05:52
npmitsnotabigtruck: ^^^05:52
npmactually looking to solve something else so just taking notes on the side-issue05:52
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itsnotabigtrucknpm: hmm06:20
itsnotabigtrucki have no clue what QMF is good for but it sounds like something it ought to be able to do06:21
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itsnotabigtrucki'm having trouble figuring out how one is supposed to tell it where to actually put the message...though it looks like it might default to drafts06:25
itsnotabigtruckactually i think you want
itsnotabigtrucksince the goal isn't really to save it as a draft but to open the compose view for the user to edit it06:26
itsnotabigtruckif you aren't using qt, no idea how to invoke that stuff - but i believe the relevant code is oss06:27
npmi am using qt06:41
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itsnotabigtrucknpm: well then, there it is :D07:15
itsnotabigtruckany luck?07:15
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gridoes anyone know where the contact display settings "first name - last name" or "last name - first name" of the contacts application is stored? "gconftool -R /" does not seem to find that setting10:13
phako_gri: /home/user/.contacts/some-ini-file-I-forgot10:15
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griphako: There are only binary files10:17
phakogri: hm10:18
phakothen it's somewhere in .config10:18
phakogri: let me check the source, sec.10:18
griphako: found it10:19
gri~/.config/Nokia $ cat Contacts.ini [General] nameOrder=first-last10:19
phakoyeah :)10:20
gridanke :)10:20
phakokein ding10:20
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faenilwhat can I use to do things only once in a qml element?13:14
faenillike onCreated: but there's no such signal13:15
faenilcomponents have onComponentCreated13:15
faenilbut many elements don't13:15
hiemanshufaenil: try #qt-qml you might find more people there :)13:21
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ArkanoiD_switching to physical keyboard from virual one and backwards definitely degraded in pr1.2 beta13:27
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grifaenil: Component.onCompleted: ?13:32
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mardygri: Component.onCompleted is called only when the component class has been prepared; it's not called for every instance (AFAIK)13:34
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grimardy: Yeah, I realized that after answering without thinking :P13:35
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faenilgri: aaaalright, that was it, I was mispelling it, it's Component.onCompleted!14:06
grihow can you misspell it? QtCreator provides completions :P14:07
alteregoNot everyone uses Qt Creator ...14:08
alteregoTo code QML I don't use it tbf.14:08
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jesuschrist~seen admiral0116:14
infobotjesuschrist: i haven't seen 'admiral01'16:14
faenilhas anyone ever experienced problems with ListItem component?16:15
faenilI'm using onClicked, but it doesn't work...16:15
faenilit works half the times16:15
djszapiN9i have a patched version in master16:15
faenilthe rest I just get the "pressed" state, but no "clicked"16:15
faenildid you have the same issue?16:16
djszapiN9not really, but you might wanna check out master anyway :)16:16
djszapiN9other also fixed some thingie16:17
faenilwhich master?16:17
djszapiN9but onclicked works for me16:18
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faenilit works at times here...16:18
djszapiN9not sure if i have a mouse area separately16:18
faenilsometimes it does, sometimes only "pressed" state16:18
faenilI tried that too16:18
faenilinside the listitem16:18
djszapiN9btw it is not fun to miss the plane16:20
djszapiN9faenil, could you please check out my code ?16:20
djszapiN9i use clickable listitems16:21
djszapiN9in the gluonplayer, and also in kanagram16:21
faenilbut I don't have much time to see differences, I think I'd rather use text element and be done with that16:21
djszapiN9you could see whether i use external mouse area16:22
faenilyeah looking at it ;)16:23
faenilyou just use a normal mousearea (is there any alternative) and call root.clicked()16:24
faenilthis is strange, there must something competing to get the click16:25
djszapiN9do you use complicated focus management ?16:26
faenilnot in that part16:27
faenilnot in that screen "area"16:27
djszapiN9try a simple workhorse16:28
faeniltrying with bigger listitems atm16:28
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faenilit's the same without16:36
djszapiN9without what ?16:36
faenilit's the same without ListItem, so there must be some other problem16:36
djszapiN9perhaps focus issue16:37
faenilit's strange coz all other buttons and stuff are working16:37
faenilI have 2 items in the list16:37
faenilI click on 1st, click 2nd16:37
faeniland for the first 5-6 times it works16:37
faenilthen I click the 1st16:37
faeniland I have to click it 6 times for it to get the click16:37
faenilor something like that16:38
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djszapiN9faenil, i honestly lost my sake about qml16:49
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djszapiN9so much hack i need to do to amend its limitations16:50
faenilyeah, +1000 on that16:50
djszapiN9and i am not keen on writing very nasty hacks that i know i can drop later completely.16:51
djszapiN9whereas that was the way with qgv as well, unfortunately.16:52
rzrback home16:52
faenilexactly, so...16:53
rzrdjszapiN9: how is weather in helsinky?16:53
djszapiN9-4 so hawai'ish :))16:54
djszapiN9it was -30'ish yesterday16:54
rzrat  day or night ?16:54
itsnotabigtruckit's always ofc possible to build the app w/o qml16:55
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djszapiN9rzr morn16:58
rzrtime to book a flight to the sun17:00
djszapiN9i am planning to relocate to nz :)17:00
rzrit can be cold overthere too17:02
djszapiN9i did not dare to get off the car in minus forty17:04
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djszapiN9faenil, have you tried this qml2 ?17:07
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faenilthis what'17:09
rzrdjszapiN9: is your pres online ?17:12
djszapiN9rzr i sent it to stskeeps17:13
faenildjszapiN9: root of the problem detected17:14
djszapiN9rzr it was not a great talk though ;)17:14
faenilmouseclicks get to TabGroup17:14
faenilthen it probably doesn't pass it correctly17:14
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djszapiN9rzr my impression is that fosdem is too big, and too short17:16
djszapiN9this makes it a bit rushy17:16
djszapiN9you either do not contact with certain friends, or just not much.17:17
rzri agrea17:18
rzrtoo far too big too short and TOO COLD17:18
rzrI did miss the qt5 presentation too17:19
rzrbut some friends made me a resume17:19
djszapiN9i prefer smaller sprints for a weekend meeting :)17:20
rzrbtw did u see anything about ubuntu tablets ?17:22
djszapiN9are there photos somewhere ?17:22
rzrnothing new17:23
rzrpicture of the tablet you'd like to own17:24
djszapiN9i dislike tabletd17:26
djszapiN9it is uncomfy to me to bring with me17:27
rzrno use for me17:27
djszapiN9i can put a handset into the packet...17:27
Corsacnice teeth17:37
djszapiN9faenil, i am interested in qml2's boundaries17:37
faenilI have not tried qml2 yet...17:38
faenilI hate how I get stuck for stupid bugs for days17:38
djszapiN9i am gonna try it out after the beta release.17:38
faenilyeah me too probably17:39
djszapiN9i personally write less effective code with it than getting wasted time with hackeries17:40
djszapiN9for instance, model data altering17:41
djszapiN9i better go for full reassignment twice in qml17:41
djszapiN9less hackery to be drkopped later :)17:42
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npmthe model->qml thing could use some improving. you should be able to pass arbitrary javascript values in a model, such as functions or closures18:28
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djszapinpm: +++++++118:28
npmand i'm not sure at what point it falls down efficiency wise, e.g. with very large models18:28
BluesLeefrals: ping18:29
npmhowever, as integration of dynamic language and advanced GUI concepts it's really nice18:29
npmbut it has shortcomings -- most of which can't be changed -- e.g. javascript instead of scheme, etc.18:30
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BluesLeeitsnotabigtruck ping18:30
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npmfrom my perspective, QML is like WINTERP ( ) but multiplatform, fully featured 20+years later, and I don't have to deal w/ people's  bug reports :-)18:33
npmof course if you went to fosdem and heard that java is the way to go for building UI's.over gtk+ -- it's like saying eating dog shit is better than eating cat shit18:37
npmthe only difference is the cat shit is in a leaky, smelly sandbox :-)18:38
npmalthough building UIs in clojure might approach decent if you could use something like gcj to compile it down to .o's18:40
djszapidoes anybody know how to get an integer for a division out of a 20/6 example for instance, for a list element property ?18:40
djszapi*list element role18:42
npmdjszapi: .toFixed() ?18:42
djszapiyeah, that would be the feature, but how to implement it ?18:43
npm(foo/bar).toFixed() ?18:43
djszapimmm.. I think I miss something :)18:43
djszapiwhere does this toFixed() belong to ?18:43
djszapi1) Shall I write it ? 2) Builtin javascript method 3) qml feature 4) something else ?18:44
npm(foo/bar).toFixed(0) perhaps18:44
djszapiwhere is the documentation of toFixed() ?18:45
djszapiokay, so it is 2). a javascript feature.18:45
djszapican I call a javascript feature like that in the qml role bit ?18:46
npmwhy else would you use javascript if not to use its features18:46
djszapiI recal I had issues with calling javascript builtin methods in the description part of the qml file.18:46
npmdjszapi: that should be the point of QML. it falls down in a few places that true OOPy javascripters like me might complain18:47
npmdjszapi: then make a closure and call it in the closure18:47
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djszapiwhat do you mean by closure ?18:51
djszapifunction ?18:51
npman unnamed function, used functionally, making use of any lexical variables at point of definition, but may be called anytime18:52
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djszapinpm: you seem to be a js expert :)19:03
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rzrdjszapi: note there is also closure in c++19:07
djszapiyes, it is called functor19:09
rzrthis remind me some obscure computer science courses19:10
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itsnotabigtruckcrap, missed blueslee19:10
itsnotabigtruckhey drgrov19:11
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djszapinpm: I could not define a global js variable inside the qml file either.19:18
djszapiis it possible to put the listview in a row by using Row outside ?19:23
djszapi(as a container of the listview). It works fine for repeater.19:23
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DrGrovitsnotabigtruck: PM20:20
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ZogG_lap1op /statusbar window disable20:42
npmno, you'd have to have something like Global.variable where 'Global' is created out of a .js file20:45
djszapiyes, that is what I did. imo that is a nasty hack of the qml limitations.20:47
npmnot really. it's just that the "design" ought to be explained :-)20:49
npmwhy should a qml file, that is basically a class, have access to "global" ?20:49
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djszapibecause it is not really global20:51
djszapiit is actually static, or even going furthermore: local to an object20:51
npmexactly "global" is C++20:51
djszapiand this is a dirty hack to have one-liner js file20:51
djszapidefining a variable ..20:51
npmhow could you introspect that far?20:51
djszapinot sure what you mean.20:52
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djszapinpm: -> as I expected.20:55
griThat evil GroupModel (for listing conversation groups) does change order of rows without using QAbstractItemModel::beginMoveRows() or insert/remove20:56
griand if you show that one inside a QML ListView, it gets completely confused20:56
npm                 remainingTimeElementRole: (function () { return (countDownTimerValue / 60 / 10).toFixed(0); }) ();20:57
npmor somesuch20:57
djszapiuhh that is sort of ugly ;)20:57
npmwell you  can replace it w/ a named function defined in qml instead20:58
djszapimakes more sense to me20:58
npmdon't blame me for javascipt being stupid20:58
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npmit should all be
djszapifile:///opt/kanagram/qml/MainPage.qml:209:13: ListElement: cannot use script for property value  remainingTimeElementRole: (function () { return (countDownTimerValue / 60 / 10).toFixed(0); }) ();21:00
npmsounds odd21:01
djszapitold ya ;)21:01
npmtry setting your own property instead of function21:01
npmand then bind the remainingTimer.... to it21:01
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djszapiwell, I would not use model then at all21:02
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djszapinor delegate, nor repeater prolly.21:02
npmrepeater is funky that's fo sure.21:02
djszapifunky in what sense ?21:03
npmi had to do some workarounds for a two-view model in because you can't delete items in the model21:03
npmas in, it coredumps :-)21:04
djszapithat is not repeater specific21:04
npmcoredumps? no21:04
djszapiand I believe I did it in c++21:04
npmbut you shouldn't be able to coredump from qml imho21:04
npmunless there was a try/catch block preventing it :-)21:05
djszapiahh there are many like that21:05
djszapifor instance, qt mobility21:05
djszapiyou will get a segfault in the library before getting the main entry point.21:06
npmwell that's more understandable there as there's drivers puking involved21:06
djszapiso if you put the ListView in a Row container, the elements will lay down horizontally ?21:06
djszapiI cannot understand21:07
grinpm: You can crash qml if you delete objects at the wrong time :)21:07
djszapior if you reference to a non-created one21:07
npmdjszapi: it probably inherits a layout property from rowcontainer that can be forced back to vertical21:07
djszapiI do not wanna :D21:08
djszapithat is my purpose: to have a horizontal list/repeater21:08
npmgri: yes. in my case i just decided to make them invisible. they'll delete next time the app runs21:08
djszapiit works fine for a repeater. Never really tried for a list. :)21:08
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npmso i'm not finding any obvious entry points to trigger the harmattan search app from dbus21:09
npmany suggestions?21:10
npmi just want to be able to run the app with a given query as parameter21:10
npmby query i mean string21:10
npmwhere's the source to /usr/bin/search21:10
npmi just get 'MComponentData: Usage:  /usr/bin/search ' boilerplate21:11
djszapinpm: something like this that I would like to achieve:
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itsnotabigtrucknpm: fwiw it looks like they lifted the limitation you were running into for qt 5.021:13
itsnotabigtruckbut that doesn't do you much good as it stands on harmattan21:13
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djszapinpm: rather:
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npmi don't think anything in a model can be "declarative" like that21:25
npmyou have declarative statements in a listelement21:25
djszapihuh ?21:25
npmthe buck has to stop somewhere :-)21:25
djszapi -> take a look at it then21:25
grigrrrr this seems to be the bug I'm experiencing all the time :(21:25
djszapiI kinda admit that, it is unhandy to make hackery properties21:26
npmdjszapi: those uses are all constants21:26
djszapifor such simple stuff21:26
djszapinot following21:26
npmname: "Banana"21:26
npmname: bunch && of && locic && crap21:27
npmi'd like my sql data entries to be declarative too, but they're not21:27
djszapithat is what I said. It is also an annoying limitation.21:27
npmthe qml model is an annoying limitation that could be improved21:28
npmand i believe it is21:28
npmfor qt521:28
djszapicannot really put const there since it is not const21:28
djszapithat is the whole point of that task.21:28
djszapiit is changing every second.21:28
npmno, why should your model change on it's own?21:28
npmthat makes no sense21:28
npmthe controller changes the model21:29
npma model that changes itself isn't really a model21:29
djszapithat is what should happenthere.21:29
npmtha'ts what you want to happen, but it makes no sense21:29
djszapithenon-const stuffis changed outside21:29
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djszapimakes perfect sense21:29
npmthen change it from outside.21:30
djszapithere is a description for the role, and the non-const is changed outside21:30
npmit might help to not use ListElement and use JSON directly21:30
djszapiI fail to see the problem.21:30
djszapihahaha json :D21:30
djszapibad joke ;)21:30
npmremainingTimeElementRole: (countDownTimerValue / 60 / 10).toFixed(0); is the problem21:30
npmyou can't do it21:30
npmtha'ts why you got that error21:31
npmthis one is ok probably21:31
npm            remainingTimeElementRole: ":";21:31
npmyou could probably hack your way around what you want by running an "eval"21:32
npmbecause it's not evaluating your expression21:32
djszapiand this is precisely what I said21:32
djszapiit is a damn annoying limitation21:32
npmno you're using ListElement which is for noobs21:33
npmuse JSON21:33
djszapisound silly really :)21:33
djszapijson for a simple assignment :D21:33
djszapiI do not think ListElement should be used only by noobs. It might be that noobs did that component :)21:33
djszapior they were under a big pressure for pushing something.21:34
npmdepends on how you use it here's an equivalent use that lets the evaluator run it's course:
npmwrong link21:37
npmbut that'll work too21:37
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djszapinpm: just a momment, pondering my financial crise :)21:47
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bluesleefrals: the old versions of lpmcustomizer contained some logos, i dont remember if any of them contained more than three colors21:51
jesuschrist~seen admiral021:52
infobotadmiral0 <> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 1d 23m 17s ago, saying: 'like %quote{random}'.21:52
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djszapinpm: I do not like that code.22:06
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djszapias for me, that is an example how to not write things :)22:07
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* djszapi does not see why he should use json for a string role.22:12
gritell me why that crap GroupModel does send dataChanged() but it's data() method is never called after that by qml (displays old values). But when I create a test code, I can't reproduce it ...22:13
djszapiI know why :)22:15
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djszapimorning Venemo22:20
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gridjszapi: You really have a clue why my items do not update (more fitting: only partially update)?22:27
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griall delegates are updated correct except the first one o_O22:28
griIf I log "model.text" in a onClick handler, it shows the correct value22:29
gribut the display value is wrong ...22:29
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bluesleethere is a general issue whe i use a reduced palette on the low power screen of the n9, for instance white, black and magenta, in the first moment everything looks fine but thenm even the clock gets a magenta touch22:31
ZogG_lap1opfinally made ovi publish account22:31
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ZogG_lap1opdoes gallery in imgur is rated as not under 18? =)22:36
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gridjszapi: Very cool. Fetching dataChanged() in the delegate and doing "text = myModel.get(model.index).text" works whereas "model.text" returns an old value :D22:49
Venemofrals, ping22:52
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: sup22:54
VenemoZogG_lap1op, I returned to my N950. got tired of the Lumia22:56
ZogG_lap1opi know22:56
griLOL I hate myself now. After searching two hours and having an workaround, I found the bug :P22:57
Venemohowever, the contacts app doesn't want to sync my facebook and skype contacts! meh.22:57
griOne tip for all having model roles that do not update in ListView: never use insertMulti() for the roles hash on a model :)22:57
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: i registered to publish ovi \o/22:58
VenemoZogG_lap1op, congrats :)22:58
Venemoanyway, something is seriously wrong with this stuff.22:58
Venemoit does not want to sync either my Live account nor my Facebook account nor my Skype account22:58
Anssi138i think it might try merge contacts with current entries.22:59
* RST38h moos22:59
Venemomaybe I should just reflash and set up my stuff from scratch? meh.23:01
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: as frals answers your tweets can you ask him to put some xauth examples as there is no documentation and i'm pretty sure it's used in twitter app23:01
VenemoZogG_lap1op, ask him yourself :) he's a very helpful person23:02
fralsZogG_lap1op: i havent had time to do it, but i would assume its documented on accounts&sso gitorious or similar as iirc the xauthplugin is oss23:03
fralsand twitter app is not using xauth plugin atm23:03
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fralsVenemo: pong23:03
Venemofrals, do you have a minute for me? it seems that the contacts app on my N950 has gone rogue23:03
ZogG_lap1opfrals: i didn't find it there and there is bug about that and it was assinged but no actions =\23:04
fralsVenemo: what about it?23:04
Venemofrals, it does not want to sync with any of my accounts23:05
Venemoright now I'm trying to disable them all and reenabling them23:05
Venemomaybe that'll help23:05
VenemoOK, it seems that it's doing something. I disabled all of my accounts, rebooted the N950 and reenabled the facebook account. now some odd little icon thingy appeared on top of my facebook contacts' portrait and when I click on them it says "checking..."23:07
fralsdunno how to debug contacts app really, never had to do it fortunately...23:07
ZogG_lap1opfrals far i got was someoutput that it's pending user action and thats it =\23:07
fralsZogG_lap1op: link to src?23:07
Venemoalso, somehow all my phone contacts are gone from my Live account. trying to sync with Live (set up as a MfE account) also does nothing.23:07
ZogG_lap1opfrals: lemme put it online, but it's ugly as i'm not good coder =\23:08
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fralsVenemo: missing accounts sounds like activesync that went haywire, check the tmo thread for debugging, but as they are already gone i guess theres not much to do :<23:10
Venemofrals, they are still there on my N950!23:10
frals(when you say gone i assume gone from hotmail web acc)23:10
fralsaha, they turned into local contacts?23:10
Venemofrals, they are on the N950, but they don't appear on the live contacts web interface. they also disappeared from the lumia23:11
Venemoout of the blue23:11
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: blame ms =)23:11
VenemoZogG_lap1op, I could blame MS all I want, but that wouldn't solve any of my problems...23:12
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: blame me =) at least it would make you happy23:12
VenemoZogG_lap1op, blame you? why? lol.23:13
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Venemonah, anyway. I'll try to restore my backup again23:13
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: you need to blame someone23:13
VenemoZogG_lap1op, it doesn't matter who fucked it up. what matters is that it's fucked up and I want to solve it.23:14
VenemoZogG_lap1op, btw, I owe you a thank you :)23:14
ZogG_lap1opVenemo: what for?23:14
VenemoZogG_lap1op, for pinging me about PR 1.223:14
ZogG_lap1opoh =)23:14
ZogG_lap1opthank frals and team not me23:15
ZogG_lap1oplooking forward for twiiter notifications =)23:15
ZogG_lap1opfrals: btw have you seen proposal on mentions improvements on bugtracker23:16
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griGAHHH crap nokia developer page keeps telling me "ValueError: I/O operation on closed file" when I try to edit bugreports23:18
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ZogG_lap1opfrals: ?23:29
fralsi queried you23:29
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Venemoall right, this doesn't want to work at all23:31
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VenemoI'll reflash the device again, re-import my contacts from .vcf files and readd all my accounts23:33
Venemoif that doesn't fix it, then I'll be very sad.23:36
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fralsif import from vcf they are not going to go to any serviec i think?23:38
Venemothey will23:38
fralsadd a you at some point in that sentence23:38
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Venemoactually, that is how I synced the N950 with the Lumia. I enabled contacts sync on the N950 and in a couple of minutes every one of my contacts were on Live :)23:39
Venemounless something is srsly wrong in PR 1.2, I hope it'll behave the same way now :)23:40
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Venemofrals, anyway, I'm loving the new features in the Facebook, Twitter, and the Mail apps23:43
Venemofrals, you and your team has done a great job :)23:44
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Chaz6Hi there, since doing a factory reset, emoticons no longer work. Is there an easy fix without reflashing?23:49
npmdjszapi: re: "i do not like that code" ---> too bad!23:49
npmfeel free to continue bashing your head against the wall w/ incorrect understanding of ListModel23:50
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faenilevening guys :)23:51
npmand when is resolved "that code" might become reasonable because JSON would have first class support as a model23:51
faenildoes anyone have experience with multithreaded opengl?23:51
faenilI need to load a 3d model without blocking the UI23:51
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npmhm weird that bug isn'tthe one i was referring to23:52
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: no s/mime though :(23:52
itsnotabigtruck < needs some attention23:52
_MeeGoBot_Bug 295 enh, ---, ---, ext-risto.lahti, ASSI, Missing S/MIME Support in nokia mail client23:52
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, what is s/mime?23:52
npmis the one i wanted23:52
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: ietf-standard e-mail encryption23:53
VenemoI have no idea what that is, I guess I've never needed it either23:53
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itsnotabigtruckiphone, blackberry, outlook, thunderbird, evolution, gpg all have it23:53
itsnotabigtruckand wm6 (but not wp7)23:53
Venemoevening faenil :)23:54
faenilevening :)23:54
itsnotabigtruckit's not super popular but not having it on various mobile platforms certainly hasn't helped23:54
faenilgot experience with multithreaded opengl by any chance?23:54
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, what good does it do?23:54
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: it lets you encrypt messages :p normal e-mail is extremely insecure23:54
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, that's why I use SSL23:54
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: ssl doesn't help when the e-mail is in transit23:55
itsnotabigtruckmany e-mail servers don't support ssl23:55
itsnotabigtruckmany e-mail servers are controlled by untrustworthy providers23:55
itsnotabigtrucknearly all e-mail servers don't check ssl certificates23:55
Venemoall my e-mail servers support ssl23:55
faenil:O :O23:55
itsnotabigtruckssl is generally considered a nice to have, not a core feature23:55
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: i'm not talking about the server you connect to directly23:55
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Venemothen educate me please23:55
itsnotabigtruckwhen you send a message, it gets sent to your smtp relay, then it goes through at least 1, often more servers on the way to the recipient's smtp destination23:56
itsnotabigtruckthen the recipient picks it up through imap or pop323:56
faenilbut once it's crypted your message can't be passed in clear23:56
itsnotabigtruckif you don't use encryption, then every one of those hops could be cleartext23:56
Venemook, I use SSL in my e-mail clients, so the only possible weak link is the SMTP server, right?23:57
faenilhow can it? that means someone could decrypt the message after you have crypted it23:57
itsnotabigtruckand e-mail is a popular target for surveillance by governments, or just by people camped on wifi hotspots sniffing traffic23:57
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: no, it means there's 2, 3, 4, 5 weak links that you don't control23:57
itsnotabigtruckthat's why it's important to encrypt your e-mail using PGP or S/MIME23:57
faenilemail servers shouldn't be able to access the message once it's crypted, otherwise what is SSL there for23:57
itsnotabigtruckfaenil: ssl is for protecting the message between you and the server, it doesn't keep the server from reading the message23:58
mgedmin(and remember the fun fact that email headers aren't encrypted, so don't put sensitive stuff in your Subject line if you're paranoid)23:58
itsnotabigtruckssl is hop-to-hop encryption23:58
itsnotabigtrucks/mime and pgp are end-to-end encryption23:58
faeniloh right23:58
itsnotabigtrucksometimes hop-to-hop encryption is good enough, like for websites23:58
itsnotabigtruckbut e-mail is too insecure to get away with that23:58
itsnotabigtruckyou really do need s/mime or pgp23:58
faenilbut wait ssl is built on top of tcp, and tcp is end to end23:59
itsnotabigtruckS/MIME is the one chosen by most e-mail client developers, it's often built in23:59

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