IRC log of #harmattan for Tuesday, 2012-01-10

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M4rtinK	thp: I'm still working on the Touchpad installation howto (or rather handling something else so that I can resume working on it) :)	00:45
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thp	M4rtinK: good :) looking forward to it!	01:05
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npm	hi thp, who makes the suction-cup windshield holder you use to hold your n9 (from recent pic you shared): and would you recommend it?	01:30
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Jare	npm: i would recommend the nokia cr-115 universal holder. I got that one with e52 and it's compatible with almost every phone	01:44
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thp	npm: i think the one i have (randomly searched on amazon.at) is from mumbi	02:00
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thp	npm: if you search for B004E29SMG on http://www.amazon.at/ you'll find it. but the cr-115 suggested by Jare also looks good	02:02
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Markion	Hello	04:18
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itsnotabigtruck	jare thp: any opinions on cases?	04:40
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DocScrutinizer	~moo	07:29
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass		07:30
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ieatlint	hahaha, a wanted rapist tried to pick up a female police officer in uniform in my hometown	07:48
ieatlint	apparently it didn't work as hoped..	07:48
kralor	fail	07:49
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ZogG_laptop	kralor: it's not actually fail	08:17
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: better die trying =)	08:18
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Jare	itsnotabigtruck: well i've been using this one from Nokia for a couple of months now http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/carrying-cases-and-style/carrying-cases/nokia-carrying-case-cp-571-for-nokia-n9. I like the ergonomics of it, but quality wise it's rubbish. The "leather" feels more like vinyl and it's already breaking from one corner	08:24
Jare	itsnotabigtruck: i've been thinking of buying this one soon: http://www.noreve.com/langue/en/product/Nokia_N9-00_Tradition_leather_case.html	08:24
itsnotabigtruck	jare: hmm...i was thinking about that one, better avoid it then	08:24
itsnotabigtruck	doesn't help that it seems impossible to find	08:24
itsnotabigtruck	i think they might have discontinued the 571 (the 572 for the lumia is more available, same but without the hole for the flash)	08:25
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itsnotabigtruck	the noreve looks good, but i'm worried about the whole folding part	08:25
Jare	folding part in that design or noreve?	08:26
Jare	there are some really nice leather pouches in the market too, but I don't like the idea of always using two hands to get access to my phone	08:28
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ieatlint	ZogG_laptop: there's trying, and there's walking up to a uniformed cop while being a wanted rapist and trying to hit on her, including offering your name which she then looked up on a computer and discovered his status	09:22
ieatlint	that's pretty big fail	09:22
ieatlint	also, tizen made a release of some sort? that's actually being taken seriously?	09:24
dm8tbr	ieatlint: seems after people had cloned everything anyway out of their git, there was no turning back, but I wonder who really cares...	09:26
ieatlint	yeah...	09:26
ieatlint	so unfortunate, but both nokia and intel killed any prospect of such a thing	09:27
ieatlint	(and yes, intel didn't have clean hands.. both companies threw millions at it, but if you ever saw the meego tablet ux, you'd see it too was doomed)	09:27
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auenf	rofl, just watching a youtube video	11:04
auenf	and ad for N9 came up at the start	11:04
RST38h	Ok, so Microsoft did not have any presence at CES, they used Nokia's keynote and booth instead	11:08
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RST38h	Saved themselves some money from that $1B bribe...	11:09
ieatlint	you're in vegas?	11:14
ieatlint	because you should be drunk right now in a bar/strip club	11:14
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lucido	I'm implementing a text password authenticastion method with hashing and it does not work for some reason I'm storing the password hash in a GConf string and then comparing the entered passwords hash value to it, heres the two functions:http://pastebin.com/uj3KPRdk the sterr debug output is: Stored: "±³w:ÀívxzOtÿ" Entered: "±³w:ÀívxzOtÿ when the same pasword is stored and then authenticated but the function still returns false	11:17
lucido	only difference in debug output is the missing double quotes at the end of the hash value of the entered password	11:18
jonni	lucido: works better if you base64 encode & decode it to gconf	11:28
jonni	(as without your hash string can have null characters in it, which will lead to failure on compare)	11:31
jonni	so its better to compare base64 encoded hashes	11:32
RST38h	ieatlint: I am in Moscow right now, and sober like a doorknob.	11:35
alterego	My freakin' simulator doesn't have an up-to-date version of qt components, lame.	11:37
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RST38h	Still amused by Engadget's report of the Nokia's keynote - it basically looks like Microsoft's keynote, with all the right decorations, Ballmer included	11:37
frals	wait that was a nokia keynote? ;(	11:39
RST38h	apparently	11:39
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djszapi	ieatlint: yeah, the pre-alpha tizen release is serious :)	11:59
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djszapi	interesting, they still have debian format, but will change to rpm..	12:11
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lucido	jonni, thanks	12:22
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lucido	in wml, how I have several text input items and I'd like to change the enter key on the virtual keyboard to next so the input jumps to the next text input	12:26
lucido	qml*	12:26
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jonni	lucido: use Keys.onReturnPressed and FocusScope, like http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativefocus.html , or make custom keyevent handler in c++	12:51
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Avengence	so, nobody knows anything about messageserver?	13:38
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Avengence	this is getting frustrating... I had working email yesterday but the logging was exhausting /tmp so I killed messageserver and restarted it in order to delete the log (it leaves the file handle open) but since that restart it claims it can't find the files under .qmf under homedir. so I have a feeling I'm really not running it the right way (wrong user id, missing params, etc)	13:40
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jonni	reboot :)	13:40
Avengence	jonni: problem is that messageserver doesn't start at boot	13:41
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Avengence	figuring that out is why I turned on logging.	13:41
djszapi	Avengence: write an upstart job for that :P	13:41
lucido	start it manually with /sbin/start	13:42
jonni	atleast dont start it by hand :)	13:42
lucido	to debug I mean	13:42
Avengence	djszapi: yesterday I came here asking how startup system works because I want to figure out where it should be starting and why it doesn't	13:42
thp	itsnotabigtruck: i never use any cases, so no suggestions there :/	13:43
djszapi	Avengence: it is simple ;-)	13:43
Avengence	fenix log tells me that it can't find running messageserver when it starts and there was no log file for messageserver until i ran the thing from terminal so as far as I can tell it's not running at boot	13:43
Avengence	it worked once to run from terminal, and later i hit ctrl-c and ran it again with & so it backgrounded, which worked until i had to kill its pid to delete the log file	13:44
Avengence	lucido: /sbin/start will run it with proper environment or do i need to pass any flags?	13:45
Avengence	djszapi: do you happen to have a link to any reference on upstart, or better, a copy of the config file for whatever should be starting it at boot so I can see what is different on mine?	13:46
lucido	Avengence, it should run it jsut as upstart runs it at boot so you can debug it	13:46
Avengence	the big mystery to me is just what I could have done to not have it running on it's own at boot. it worked after PR1.1, but then after a reboot due to battery exhaustion it stopped working. i didn't have developer mode on then, but flipped it on to debug	13:47
lucido	jsut grep the files in /etc for the name of the msgsrvr binary	13:47
djszapi	please not under /etc	13:47
djszapi	upstart jobs are under /etc/init/	13:47
Avengence	lucido: ok, will do. stuck working ion terminal since I can't seem to login with ssh	13:48
djszapi	also, it is not "msgsrvr".	13:48
Avengence	its /usr/bin/messageserver	13:48
Avengence	iirc	13:48
djszapi	Avengence: /etc/init//xsession/messageserver.conf	13:48
djszapi	Avengence: that is not the main point :)	13:48
djszapi	exec /usr/bin/aegis-exec -s -u user -l "MAIL_BOOT_NO_WAIT=$PAR1 exec /usr/bin/messageserver" -> so there is a line like that	13:48
lucido	Avengence, is this N9? there is no reason why shouldn't you be able to log in via ssh	13:49
djszapi	either use it in a custom stuff, or start to run it manually for debugging.	13:49
lucido	Avengence, dev mode installed and passwd as user in ion	13:49
Avengence	lucido: yes, N9. from what I read, no root login, but login as user with password set either via passwd or setting lock password. it rejected my lock password and I didn't want to use passwd yet for fear I might not be able to get back in either way	13:50
jonni	lucido: as long as he isnt trying to log in as root :)	13:50
lucido	jonni, yes but you can devel-su once you logged in	13:50
djszapi	in certain cases, I would say, not all the time ;-)	13:51
RST38h	http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/10/tizen-os-exposed-apparently-running-on-an-unknown-samsung-i950/	13:51
jonni	lucido: yes you can, avengence's problem is that he tried user and not developer :)	13:51
jonni	setting lock password has no affect on user-password, so if some forum states it, then its just wrong info.	13:52
Avengence	jonni: ok, so I should set passwd or user account to use ssh. i guess it defaults to blank so ssh doesn't allow access	13:53
djszapi	mmm, the office-suite has a lacking feature that is wont fix. It does not recall the page you were previously after opening it again.	13:53
Avengence	maybe better to just drop my ssh pubkey on here after I get the other bit sorted	13:53
djszapi	(I hope a simple plugin can fix this, and not platform limitation)	13:53
jonni	Avengence: user ssh developer@192.168.2.15 and read passwd from sdk connectivity tool, or set passwd to user account and use ssh user@....	13:54
Avengence	i was going based on instructions from PR1.0 that said to edit the sshd_config to turn off root login and set password for user with passwd. someone wrote an update to that saying PR1.1 fixes the root login hole and setting lockscreen password will set user password, but obvious only the first half of that claim is true.	13:55
jonni	by default you should only ssh to developer@192.168.2.15, all other usernames are not meant to be used	13:55
Avengence	I'm glad I asked again today since yesterday it seemed nobody here was alive when I first asked about messageserver	13:56
Avengence	jonni: is developer password static (which I should change) or something different per device that I need to get through SDK tools (not installed)	13:57
jonni	Avengence: it changes everytime you start sdk connectivity tool, but you can set it manually or upload ssh key to developer	13:57
jonni	ie its random	13:58
Avengence	ok, i'll drop in ssh keys for both user and developer at somepoint (so i can be either as needed)	13:58
Avengence	I'd probably have an easier time if I started from normal, but since somethinh borked email I'	13:59
Avengence	m chasing that first	13:59
Avengence	I assume upstart runs as root so going to try the stuff from messageserver.conf as root	14:01
jonni	but aegis-exec starts messageserver as user, so most likely it reads the conf as user .)	14:01
Avengence	aegis-exec gets -u user as a parameter	14:02
djszapi	plus -s	14:02
Avengence	so i asssume it runs as root as switches to user to run the rest	14:02
djszapi	yeah, as jonni said :)	14:02
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jonni	one things that you might want to check is to check if /home/user/.qmf is user owned and all the recursive files inside it too. Just in case someone/you have started messageserver as root accidentally at somepoint	14:07
jonni	and ownerships could have messed up	14:08
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Avengence	AHA! the check just before running message server, where it calls qmftool to see that there are any accounts, throughs a message in syslog saying that the account is using wrong XML from groups	14:08
Avengence	please change to <group name="settings"> for the gmail.service	14:09
djszapi	jonni: that would be nasty without the proper credential which is not available without developer mode ;-)	14:09
Avengence	i only ran messageserver as user and I see the upstart script will fix permissions on the /usr/home/.qmf stuff	14:10
Avengence	great, there's 4 sections of group name=somestring, so which of the 4 are making the 2 messages in syslog saying to use group name="settings"	14:12
djszapi	yep, you are right about that: chown user:users $QDIR	14:12
Avengence	though, that's not a recursive chown	14:13
djszapi	that does not matter.	14:13
djszapi	since it is created at that point	14:13
djszapi	so "subfolders" will inherit this setting since qmftool is also run as user	14:13
Avengence	reading again, it only sets that if it has to make the dir so it doesn't fix perms	14:14
Avengence	but, that means people with hte 100% cpu use issue can just kill .qmf dir and it's all remade for them correctly	14:14
djszapi	but you need to create that once, right ?	14:15
djszapi	and when it is created, it is created properly.	14:15
Avengence	no, the script will create it completely. it kills and remakes the temp dir, but if the whole .qmf dir is missing it will make it from scratch	14:16
djszapi	that is what I am saying	14:16
djszapi	the script will create it for you ...	14:16
djszapi	too much worry for nothing ;-)	14:16
Avengence	I can't help but notice the comment about the result of qmftool does not match the usage that qmftool prints	14:16
jonni	but if files get wrong ownership by accidentally running messageserver as root, you can try fixing by recursive chown	14:16
djszapi	that is why I said, that would be nasty from platform developers	14:17
jonni	Avengence: so either figure out why gmail xml settings are messed up, or delete and recreate the account :)	14:17
djszapi	but I do not think they set user folders to root anyway	14:17
jonni	not the folder, but I was thinking about individual emails that it fetches	14:18
djszapi	and an average user cannot change the chown things	14:18
djszapi	same category, mails (which are also files then) should not be changed to root under ~user	14:18
Avengence	the gmail file it complains about is in /usr/share/accounts/services and is owned by root. so, i think that's essentially a definition of basic gmail settings used like template when adding the account	14:19
djszapi	I do hope platform devs do not do that :)	14:19
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jonni	ah yes, and that mail dir doesnt have +w to root, so no way it gets corrupted.	14:19
jonni	so mostly Avengence currently has some email setting/xml bug	14:20
djszapi	jonni: but platform devs are not "root" :)	14:20
Avengence	all perms on the qmf dir are proper	14:20
djszapi	so they could actually change it still, but I hope they do not do that.	14:20
Avengence	i am starting to think something in the PR1.1 OTA update went wrong and some files maybe got reverted to what they were in 1.0 after second reboot	14:21
jonni	in that case removing and recreating the account should do the trick	14:22
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Avengence	yeah, i will delete the gmail account, reboot and see if rest work normally	14:26
Avengence	though I'm not sure that will help as I just checked to see qmftool is spraying a warning into syslog, but it still returns 0 as it should so the script should go on to start messageserver	14:26
jonni	ah that xml warning comes for me too, so its just a feature :)	14:29
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Avengence	ok, so the devs need to fix up the gmail.services file	14:31
jonni	gmail mails get updated just fine even with that warning	14:32
jonni	Avengence: maybe you havent enabled the scheduler for each of the email account, or how ofter your settings fetch the mail?	14:33
Avengence	well, it looks like that worked. after reboot, it was really slow, took a few seconds to open mail, and hitting refresh causes a notifications that "Error occurred". I went to terminal and can see messageserver is running, but was probably busy sorting itself out. a moment later I got a notification that I got new mail on one of the other acccounts	14:34
Avengence	jonni: I set all my account to Always Up-to Date	14:34
Avengence	which I asssume means use IMAP IDLE	14:34
Avengence	i had 10min for on and off peak before, but changed it when I first stopped getting mail	14:35
djszapi	one a side note: fetching emails is really slow for some reasons. 100 emails / 10 minutes or so with proper 3.5G connection	14:35
jonni	Avengence: and you've setup it on each account seperately? I've made a mistake in beginnign thinking that it was global value, untill i noticed that each one needs seperate config	14:35
djszapi	on*	14:35
Avengence	it was some time later that I flipped on developer mode to find that messageserver was simply NOT running at all	14:35
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jonni	but good that its working now, hopefully it still works when you readd the gmail	14:36
Avengence	if you read the log from messageserver, you can see it frequently updates it's indexes and checks flags for all messages, so it could be a bit slow especially if you have high latency. I'm doing this over wifi to dsl since I'm out of my home country and rather not pay data roaming	14:37
djszapi	yes, but it is really slow	14:37
Avengence	yep, that is next step, add gmail account, let it fetch, then reboot again and see if it all still works	14:37
djszapi	ten minutes to start doing anything at then, like 10 seconds per mail	14:37
djszapi	I become grey by the time it fetches the qt5-development@ mailing list :)	14:38
djszapi	it is like that on Android or other phones I tried.	14:38
djszapi	not*	14:38
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jonni	I have 8700 mails in my inbox, and 1st run was pretty fast	14:39
jonni	only took few minutes'	14:39
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Avengence	i have over 11000 in my main inbox but it only fetched some small subset and I haven't found a way to make it fetch them ALL	14:39
djszapi	I have also tried the same sim card with the same 3.5G connection in Lumia, and it was way faster.	14:40
djszapi	after 2-3 weeks winter vacation, it had worked for 20-30 minutes, I think to fetch the mails only into one inbox.	14:42
djszapi	so even if there is this NOA account enabler plugin getting this very traffic at certain hours, it is not because of that.	14:43
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amppa	doh, my application failed store QA	14:58
amppa	seems like they're testing with PR 1.0	14:58
Avengence	hmm, i just noticed that IMAP accounts have setting for number of messages stored on device with All as an option, but gmail account does not. I wonder if I'd be better off setting up gmail as regular imap instead of google account type	14:58
amppa	splash screen is shown but the application itself shows only black screen	14:58
jonni	amppa: yes every application needs to work with PR1.0 always	14:59
amppa	would anyone have ideas what could cause this in 1.0?	14:59
amppa	looks pretty clear that it's something QML related	14:59
amppa	and works fine in 1.1 devices	14:59
jonni	amppa: cause what?	14:59
amppa	application shows just a black screen	15:00
jonni	amppa: maybe your using some PR1.1 only api, like swipelocking?	15:00
amppa	for me that sounds like QML doesn't load properly since the application obviously starts	15:00
Avengence	can you set min version when submitting your app to the store?	15:00
djszapi	amppa: do you include a qt quick version which is only available in PR1.1 ?	15:00
amppa	jonni: don't think so, it's quite basic QML application	15:00
djszapi	like 1.1	15:00
amppa	did 1.0 still have Quick 1.0?	15:01
jonni	Avengence: no you cannot, avery N9 application needs to work with PR1.0	15:01
djszapi	I still use this: "import com.nokia.meego 1.0".	15:01
Avengence	ugh, that makes it more difficult to use new APIs	15:01
amppa	since yeah, i'm importing QtQuick 1.1	15:01
djszapi	not sure that is any culsprit though, just saying. :)	15:01
djszapi	Yeah, I import 1.1, too	15:02
amppa	and that's in the store? shouldn't be it then	15:02
Avengence	well, seems mail is still woring after adding the gmail account and rebooting	15:02
djszapi	amppa: check out the API documentation what is available in PR1.0	15:03
Avengence	so now I can shut off the logs and reboot again. default location of messageserver log will fill /tmp in less than a day	15:03
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amppa	djszapi: yeah, i guess i'll have to do that	15:03
amppa	just.. it's a basic QML application, no platform apis used	15:04
djszapi	but QtQuick is coming with 4.7.4 afaik	15:04
djszapi	along*	15:04
djszapi	check the qt version in PR1.0	15:04
djszapi	QtQuick1.1, that is	15:04
amppa	any idea if the forum nokia remote device access has N9?	15:04
djszapi	it has	15:05
jonni	amppa: have you checked your debian package that does it have the qml in it, or embedded .qrc	15:05
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amppa	jonni: i've given the .deb for a friend to test	15:05
amppa	worked like a charm	15:05
jonni	ah	15:06
amppa	though that was a developer-enabled PR1.1 device as well	15:06
amppa	but yeah, i guess i can debug with RDA then	15:06
djszapi	amppa: why do you use plain qml by the way ?	15:06
amppa	it's qml components	15:07
amppa	with plain qml i meant i don't use meego specific C++ apis	15:07
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djszapi	right, so you use at least "com.nokia.meego" ?	15:07
jonni	I can downgrade one of my N9's back to PR1.0 if RDA doesnt solve it...	15:08
amppa	djszapi: sure, import com.nokia.meego 1.0	15:08
djszapi	amppa: that sounds ok to me.	15:08
amppa	jonni: thanks for offering, let's hope i can solve this some easier way though :)	15:09
deram	jonni: isn't downgrading impossible on N9?	15:09
djszapi	well, we internals can do that :)	15:09
deram	oh, didn't think about that	15:09
djszapi	actually my N950 still has PR1.0	15:10
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jonni	that reminds be that my ovi store app has been in QA process for the last 6 days...	15:14
jonni	already added global orientationlock to it, but 1st I need to wait for previous version even be released, before I submit update.	15:16
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Sazpaimon	so like	15:28
Sazpaimon	does nokia now have 3 phones that are nearly identical looking?	15:28
djszapi	which 3 ?	15:30
Sazpaimon	N9 Lumia 800 and 900	15:30
Sazpaimon	http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/01/nokia900gallery06.jpg	15:30
mgedmin	is it the big ugly one on the left?	15:31
Sazpaimon	http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/01/nokia900gallery10.jpg	15:31
Sazpaimon	900 is the one on the left yeah	15:31
kevin_b	the black N9 is really stylish	15:31
kevin_b	best design ever	15:31
X-Fade	Nah, white one :)	15:31
kevin_b	ok	15:32
djszapi	Sazpaimon: interesting, thanks. I did not know there are two types of Lumia.	15:32
Sazpaimon	900 is coming to AT&T as well	15:32
kevin_b	monoblock, monocolor, and this awesome Nokia screen in black so uniform and beautiful	15:32
Sazpaimon	the 900 looks just like the 800/N9 but with a larger body to make it the same screen size as the N9	15:33
Sazpaimon	to make room for the windows keys	15:33
kevin_b	God, both harmattan OS and the talent of Nokia could screw the market	15:33
gabriel9	i need n950 >_<	15:33
Sazpaimon	gabriel9, you can get one	15:33
Avengence	ok, next fun quetsion: How do I view a stored password for an email account already configured on the N9? my laptop crapped out a few days ago and I may well ahve lost all the data on it, including stored passwords.	15:34
Sazpaimon	just be willing to deal pay about $1600 for one	15:34
gabriel9	oh well if i ever find time to finsih my apps for n9	15:34
gabriel9	ouch	15:34
gabriel9	1600	15:34
gabriel9	i can buy slave for that	15:34
Sazpaimon	thats what Ive seen a few go for	15:34
mgedmin	Avengence, hm, sniff network traffic on your router?	15:34
Sazpaimon	and even then there's a chance that the imei will get blacklisted on you	15:35
Avengence	mgedmin: would need SSL proxy for that...	15:35
Avengence	MITM myself	15:35
mgedmin	you can turn off SSL on the N9 without knowing the password :)	15:36
Avengence	Sazpaimon: where do you buy a N950. I'd have paid that if I had not already paid 600EUR for N9...	15:36
Avengence	I called Nokia and asked where to buy N950 when it first was released to developers. They called me back a few days later to say I can't buy it, I could only apply for one as a developer but all where already given out at that point so no chance unless they decided to make more. I literally asdked on the phone "How much do i have to pay to get a N950? I don't care, just name a price!" and they said NO	15:37
jonni	Avengence: Charles proxy is great for SSL debugging, but its commercial, but there is free trial though	15:37
Avengence	mgedmin: doesn't work if the server doesn't allow plaintext IMAP	15:38
mgedmin	hm, so the N9 won't even send the password then?	15:38
gabriel9	what do you think is there any way for new phone like n9?	15:38
mgedmin	set up a fake netcat server	15:38
mgedmin	more seriously, though, I don't know where the N9 stores its passwords	15:39
mgedmin	I wouldn't be surprised to learn they're in encrypted aegisfs storage or something	15:39
nid0	obvious question though, can't you just change the account's password?	15:39
Avengence	jonni: I have used some SSL proxies that are free for sniffing web traffic and assume same works for other SSL/TLS connections	15:39
Avengence	mgedmin: if it doesn't get a connetion, then it won't just blindly send login data. it won't even try to send password until after getting a response to sending user name (in accordance with IMAP protocol)	15:40
jonni	Avengence: yeah there are free solutions available also, I've just used charlie abit and find it handy, you can always use tcpdump inside N9 too :)	15:40
Avengence	nid0: nope, don't have any access to most stuff since I have no access to my ssh keys until I get home and pull out a backup disk (which has the stored passwords anyway)	15:41
Avengence	I found info on getting passwords from N900 but that does not apply to N9/N950	15:42
Sazpaimon	Avengence, ask around	15:42
Sazpaimon	put up a WTB ad somewhere	15:42
Avengence	i did at least find how to extact the wifi password, but it requires some work since gconf spits it out in decimal instead of hex	15:43
Sazpaimon	you will be getting it second hand, which is illegal	15:43
Sazpaimon	and you'll essentially be recieving stolen property	15:43
Avengence	Sazpaimon: i'll wait until nokia figures out there's market demand for a real keyboard. now that I have the N9, I can't justify spending that much just to get a keyboard	15:43
Avengence	i was hoping they got a clue and were taking orders for the 950	15:44
jonni	use bt keyboard :)	15:44
Sazpaimon	you can spend less money and build your own case with a builtin usb keyboard	15:44
Sazpaimon	or bluetooth	15:44
deram	jonni: does that work already? tried with one before, and it got paired, but nothing happened	15:44
Avengence	yeah, I was about to say, I want it attached so I can hold it as one unit to use while moving	15:45
Sazpaimon	learn how to mold plastic and have a blst	15:45
mgedmin	oh I hate being unable to ping my n9 despite it showing up as online & connected	15:45
jonni	deram: worked for me atleast, and I posted the patch for enabling fullscreen terminal on forums when using bt hidd connection	15:45
deram	jonni: ok, I'll check that post and try again then..	15:46
djszapi	Avengence: you always have the open mode for that btw :)	15:46
Avengence	this probably sounds dumb, but how do I ask the N9 what it's current IP is? I had to use nmap to find it, and it took a couple runs of that to realize that ping is not honoured so had to toss another flag to nmap to just look for ssh without icmp response	15:46
Avengence	ifconfig doen't seem to exist.. feels like solaris	15:47
Aard	ip addr sh	15:47
jonni	Avengence: http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=5310&highlight=widget there is widget for that	15:47
jonni	Avengence: if you dont want to use console :)	15:47
Aard	though I do have ifconfig on my n9, probably comes with some update	15:48
djszapi	Avengence: /sbin/ifconfig ?	15:48
jonni	and yes there is ifconfig under sbin too	15:48
Avengence	ahh, yes, it's in /sbin. thanks djszapi	15:49
Avengence	i was expecting /sbin, /usr/sbin etc to be in path at least as root if not always	15:50
Piru	I wrote an app that updates my .mobi domain at ifup by using gandi.net website ;-)	15:50
mgedmin	Avengence, 'ip a' just works	15:50
Avengence	guess i'll have to fix the paths up	15:50
mgedmin	/sbin is in $PATH when you do devel-su -	15:50
djszapi	Avengence: on the device, it is not	15:50
mgedmin	with the -	15:50
Piru	so I can always ssh into my n9 easily	15:50
* mgedmin hates su, misses sudo		15:50
djszapi	Avengence: with that shell by default.	15:50
mgedmin	the N9 responds to pings, but only after a while	15:50
mgedmin	sometimes it's a long while	15:50
djszapi	Avengence: it should work properly over ssh though.	15:50
Avengence	I'm more a BSD guy than linux user, so I have to learn all the quirks	15:50
Avengence	i tried devel-su though not with the -	15:51
Piru	you don't been to su for ifconfig	15:51
Piru	just give the full path	15:51
mgedmin	I never do the - either...	15:51
mgedmin	'ip a' is shorter to type anyway	15:51
Avengence	I guess its really su and not sudo. Maybe need to port that	15:51
mgedmin	would aegis let you?	15:51
djszapi	you cannot port the traditional "sudo" :)	15:52
mgedmin	so, I ssh into my n9 (eventually, grr those ARP troubles) so I can look for wifi passwords for Avengence	15:52
djszapi	unless either with custom kernel, or opensh	15:52
mgedmin	and realize I've no idea where to look	15:52
Avengence	mgedmin: i know where to get wifi password. its email password I'm looking for	15:52
Piru	I just ssh in as root... screw devel-su ;)	15:53
djszapi	the problem is that the db in the aegisfs is tied to the application id of the creator.	15:53
Avengence	easiest might be to just spoof dns to point to a imapd on the laptop, turn off ssl/tls on the n9 and log the attempt	15:53
mgedmin	Avengence, idea: MyDocs/.backups/Backup0/settings.zip	15:53
mgedmin	I see an accounts.db.bak there	15:53
mgedmin	it's an sqlite DB... no sign of passwords, though	15:54
Avengence	I found the accounts.db file and took a peek but didn't see the passwords, so they are obfuscated if present. I didn't use sqlite to view it, just vi and a quick scan through (as I do know at least the gmail password)	15:54
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djszapi	Avengence: that is why I said you cannot encrypt it since you did not create that	15:55
djszapi	;)	15:55
mgedmin	Avengence, /home/user/.signon/backup/signon.db	15:56
mgedmin	dpm	15:56
mgedmin	err	15:56
mgedmin	don't see passwords yet...	15:56
djszapi	ofc	15:56
mgedmin	but the word 'password' does appear in there	15:56
Avengence	I wish I was learning about N9 in a more structured way, rather than crashcourse because the laptop died while I'm in a foreign country for at least a few more weeks	15:57
mgedmin	there's a 'signonfs' in my backup zip, that looks like a LUKS-encrypted filesystem image?	15:58
mgedmin	my gut feeling is that the passwords are there	15:58
mgedmin	I think it's mounted on /home/user/.signon/private	15:59
djszapi	LUKS is a history	15:59
djszapi	that was the idea, we do not use it anymore.	15:59
mgedmin	fuse.aegisfs doesn't sound very LUKS-like	15:59
djszapi	assume y ou are using PR1.1 or higher	15:59
djszapi	/home/user/.signon/signon.db but that does not contain secret data	15:59
djszapi	the db is under it's under /home/user/.signon/private	16:00
mgedmin	but in the backup zip files you can't make use of fancy OS-provided services, it's just bits	16:00
djszapi	aegisfs is the new way, not LUKS	16:00
djszapi	and aegisfs is based on the upstream fusefs user space file system	16:00
Avengence	so under private, but aegis will not let me read from there	16:00
djszapi	ofc not	16:00
djszapi	unless you hack the right application creating it with the same application id requested in the manifest file =)	16:01
mgedmin	I don't suppose you can strace the email checking app and get it that way?	16:01
Avengence	short of replacing aegis with something more permissive, easier to just use ssl proxy or trap it via dns spoofing	16:01
* mgedmin goes into Accounts and sees that his Facebook account is just! gone! poof! like it was never there! what the fuck, harmattan?		16:02
djszapi	I believe the only way would be to make an app with the same aegis configuration as the email client and do a trace in it, do a signon session with method "password" and you should get it out, I believe email signon identities are stored to use the "password" method	16:02
Avengence	important thing is I can get mail on my N9 again so I have access to all my email albeit in limited fashion	16:03
djszapi	by default reading stored passwords should be impossible, in case of email, using dbus monitor might reveal it (unless email has encryption token defined)	16:03
Avengence	so now I can put some time into getting stuff installed on this alternate laptop and then see about rescuing the disk from the other laptop. it make some bad clicking sounds and then everything just froze, so I don't want to spin up that disk until I'm ready to go at it with ddrescue	16:04
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X-Fade	Avengence: Can't you just reset the password? Most of the time that is a lot easier?	16:05
Avengence	X-Fade: if I had access to my ssh keys to get to the server I could do that, but those are trapped same as the storred password on the laptop that went dead a couple days ago	16:05
X-Fade	Avengence: And nobody else has access?	16:06
Avengence	nope, I'm the only admin of my personal mail server	16:06
X-Fade	Avengence: So, you locked the door and threw away the keys? :)	16:07
mgedmin	could be worse: imagine if it was the hard drive on the _server_ that broke down	16:07
mgedmin	how many kilometers away are you?	16:07
Avengence	of course, I have a backup disk that i was using, but the laptop ceased to be able to 'see' it when I last tried so I didn't bring it on this trip	16:08
mgedmin	"oh, the backups broke down; no rush, I'll just fix them whenever -- surely nothing bad is going to happen to my primary disk during _this_ trip"	16:08
Avengence	the server is in france, home (with backup disks) is in czech republic, currently sitting in croatia	16:08
Avengence	oh, the backups aren't working, I have only a day before I have to leave the country to wait out a visa process that takes a few months... and there's still unfilled paperwork but I can't legally stay in EU so someone has to file the last bits for me, and I still need to get the airline to confirm transport of my cat...	16:10
Avengence	so, I may have lost all the pictures I took here but most of the rest should be ok when I get back	16:11
mgedmin	Murphy is strong	16:11
djszapi	Avengence: btw, SSL proxy will not help anyway. best option to get passwds is to take backup, restore it to pr1.0 device, preferably with rd certificates, so that root can read mounted loopback files, and then you can copy signon database and check stored password	16:11
* mgedmin looks at his recently dead laptop PSU sadly		16:11
djszapi	Avengence: I could probably help with the R&D certificate part.	16:11
djszapi	but then I will know your stuff :D	16:11
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Avengence	why wouldn't ssl proxy work? If it just pretends to be the server and undoes/redoes the ssl wrapping it should be able to sniff the password	16:12
Avengence	the R&D certs trick doesn't work in 1.1?	16:13
mgedmin	still, how about the backup zip as an attack vector?	16:14
mgedmin	it has the passwords in it (encrypted), hasn't it?	16:14
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mgedmin	do you need a secret key embedded in the N9 hardware to decrypt it or what?	16:15
Avengence	if the backup file is encrypted with a key that is copied out, then its possible to use worm to read the whole backup from infected pc	16:20
Avengence	on the other hand, it's impossible to restore to new hardware unless any decryption keys are in the backup	16:21
thp	is there any prebuilt component for doing the "overscroll to show search bar" thingie in a QML ListView (e.g. like in the messages or music apps)?	16:21
djszapi	"there is no decryption key on the device"	16:21
djszapi	thp: I do not think so, but it is not hard to make it work ;-)	16:22
frals	thp: pretty sure there isnt	16:23
thp	djszapi: is there example code somewhere, so I don't have to experiment with the flickable properties myself?	16:23
djszapi	thp: imho, you can hide it in the beginning, and then reveal for flickering, that is all	16:24
Avengence	so then the backup could be attacked, but still sounds easier to use proxy. not sure why that wouldn't work. the server cert already does not match hostname and N9 is ok with that	16:25
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djszapi	how could it be attacked ?	16:25
djszapi	for an external ?	16:25
Avengence	if theres no encryption key stored solely on the device, meaning the backup can be restored onto another device (sensible use case), then copy backup off and go at it on laptop	16:27
djszapi	but you cannot encrypt that	16:27
djszapi	just the process which created it.	16:27
djszapi	That is the whole point as far as I understand.	16:27
djszapi	that is what the application ID is used for over there.	16:28
Avengence	key recovery using patrial known plaintext	16:28
flux	btw, is there a tool that would a) automatically activate the backup mechanism and b) copy the backups off the device?	16:28
Avengence	when the backup is copied off, there is nothing to stop me from looking at all the bits. would help to know algorithm used and whatnot	16:29
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Avengence	argh, I hate freenode. "WHOIS This command could not be completed because it has been used recently, and is rate-limited." funny, first time i ussues that since connecting. i guess the rate limit is 0	16:33
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flux	avengence, your irc client could be issuing WHOIS behind your back :)	16:33
Avengence	maybe... i did just install it yesterday and did almost no configuration, but if it was i should see a mess of those rate limit messages from the server for all the times it issues a whois on its own	16:34
flux	for example irssi knows some rate limit parameters of the servers and knows to avoid them	16:35
flux	althoguh it sounds a bit stupid if an irc client would do all that, but then not limit user-requested WHOIS	16:35
Avengence	i'm using Konversation, which I hadn't tried before but figured I'd give it a go on this system since xchat bugs were really bothering me on the other laptop	16:36
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kulve	what's the correct location for control panel desktop-files? /usr/lib/duicontrolpanel or /usr/share/duicontrolpanel/desktops?	17:20
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kulve	I guess the /usr/lib/duicontrolpanel even though the docs seem to say the latter	17:28
kulve	I'm trying to get a settings applet visible using the libdeclarative.so but my desktop entry isn't shown there	17:28
kulve	argh, nm. I missed one crucial line from the desktop file..	17:32
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kevin_b	'lo guys	17:35
kulve	this indicates the wrong directory still: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Best_practices_for_application_development_Storing_and_managing_application_settings_Example_of_managing_settings_with_Control_Panel_Applets.html	17:35
kevin_b	I'd like to unlock device with a custom gesture	17:35
kevin_b	Any app doing that?	17:36
X-Fade	Pick a word and use swype?	17:36
X-Fade	That'll make for a complicated gesture :)	17:37
kevin_b	so you mean this is natively supported? I can unlock with a swype?	17:37
X-Fade	notice y not i.	17:37
X-Fade	Swype is the input method.	17:38
X-Fade	But that is just to enter a password. If you mean something like the android unlock, then I haven't seen it yet.	17:39
kevin_b	Almost what I need	17:39
kevin_b	yea I didnt notive I can swype keyboard on unllocking screen	17:40
kevin_b	thanks for that	17:40
kevin_b	would make it complicated though lol	17:40
X-Fade	well, just learn swipe some very long word :)	17:40
kulve	is the "DirectUI's Declarative Settings Language" documented somewhere?	17:40
X-Fade	See, now I do it too.. Learn swype :)	17:40
kevin_b	So I need to teach swype :D?	17:40
X-Fade	kevin_b: just type a long word, hit the word, and it will ask you if it needs to save it.	17:41
ZogG_laptop	damnit, i'm egzosted with that stupid camera	17:42
ZogG_laptop	there is no way noone tried to use camera in qml	17:43
ZogG_laptop	X-Fade: ping	17:43
X-Fade	ZogG_laptop: yes?	17:44
kevin_b	when I swype a large S on the swipe input method, it doesnt write the 's'	17:44
kevin_b	is that normal?	17:44
ZogG_laptop	X-Fade: what about Qr-code integration in site as download links (for now as simple links)	17:45
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ZogG_laptop	djszapiN9: hey	17:45
X-Fade	ZogG_laptop: Is already a todo in our issue tracker.	17:45
kevin_b	I needs swipe input method lessons :p	17:45
ZogG_laptop	X-Fade: and btw can you make testing/not-testing switch on site global?	17:45
kevin_b	where can we add words to the swipe dictionary	17:46
X-Fade	ZogG_laptop: ?	17:46
ZogG_laptop	kevin_b: you just swype or swipe	17:46
ZogG_laptop	X-Fade: when i go to apps for review and i click on newest i get back to normal apps	17:46
X-Fade	ZogG_laptop: Oh that, yes. Also still a todo.	17:47
ZogG_laptop	X-Fade: :*	17:47
ZogG_laptop	djszapiN9: can you try something for me?	17:47
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: ping	17:47
djszapi	ZogG_laptop: shout	17:48
ZogG_laptop	i think that was tricky that Nokia gave n950 and n9 to developers and than gave the same people wp =)	17:48
ZogG_laptop	djszapi: sup	17:48
djszapi	(I am sitting on a unity3d presentation though)	17:48
ZogG_laptop	=\	17:48
ZogG_laptop	unity is a mistake, you need to optimize a lot of things for tablet before optimizing wm	17:49
ZogG_laptop	djszapi: anyway, i'll paste some qml code, if you mind to try it	17:49
kevin_b	I discovered swipe I.M it 's great	17:49
kevin_b	everyday harmattan stuns me	17:50
kevin_b	Best user experience on a phone ever lived	17:52
TSCHAK	since when did Nokia ship N9's to devs?	17:52
ZogG_laptop	TSCHAK: on qt dev meeting	17:53
lucido	I'm using QSqlDatabase QSQLITE to store about 500 rows of 4 doubles on an N9 and it takes approximately 30 seconds to complete, how can I buffer queries or speed this up?	17:54
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Avengence	any change of installing extra codecs in such a way that the included video player will use them? i.e. quicktime stuff so that videos recorded on iphone and sent by email can be played on N9? they are .mov file and it tries to play but then says unsupported format. they work on the laptop with whatever mess of gstreamer codecs are installed	17:56
Avengence	s/change/chance	17:56
Avengence	I was pleasantly surprised by how nicely the IM stuff integrates into the system just by installing libpurple, telepathy-haze and im-additions	17:57
gabriel9	just convert them	17:59
jreznik	Avengence: it should work just by installing missing plugins for gstreamer... just someone has to do it first :)	18:00
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Avengence	so if i or whoever compile the other gstreamer plugins and drop them in place it'll 'just work' like with the telepathy plugin. good to hear	18:10
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* jreznik is not sure it's going as easy as it sounds but I guess it should work, even the gstreamer plugin dir is on the list of allowed ones		18:15
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ZogG_laptop	djszapi: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2336306/imgrup_0.0.4.beta_armel.deb - menu - camera - can you try?	18:28
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ZogG_laptop	M4rtinK: ping	18:46
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lucido	how to handle operations that possible take several seconds, becasue the system says that my app stopped responding and if I want to quit it during long database access operations for example?	19:07
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itsnotabigtruck	lucido: do it in a separate thread, probably	19:11
itsnotabigtruck	keep long running stuff off the gui thread	19:11
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ten0r	hello	19:12
ten0r	id like to use strace on one of the system daemons. but it fails with EPERM, i guess because of aegis. is there any way around this?	19:12
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M4rtinK	ZogG_laptop: ?	19:34
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kulve	how can I get debug prints from meego applications (plugins) to somewhere?	20:33
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npm	twit.tv on ces "some nokias have really nice cameras"	20:45
npm	has anybody made proper use of the 12mp "nice camera" on the n950? (work-aroudn n9's 8mp limit)	20:47
djszapi	lucido: respont something on another thread.	20:47
ieatlint	npm: has it actually been confirmed by anyone that the n950s sent out in the community program (ie, the "dev kit" n950s) actually have the 12mp camera?	20:48
djszapi	respond*	20:49
ieatlint	i was under the impession only the internal original ones did	20:49
lucido	djszapi, what's the question?	20:49
ieatlint	hey djszapi	20:49
djszapi	ieatlint: hello :)	20:49
djszapi	lucido: it is an answer for your previous question. It seems my N9 did not work when I sent it.	20:50
lucido	probably, I don't see it here	20:51
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lucido	djszapi, wht was the answer?	20:52
djszapi	lucido: Q: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/latest.log.html#t2012-01-10T19:07:09 A: http://mg.pov.lt/harmattan-irclog/latest.log.html#t2012-01-10T20:47:41	20:54
djszapi	kulve: to stderr for instance	20:54
djszapi	ieatlint: I dislike the metroui after getting this Lumia	20:55
kulve	djszapi: and where should I see the print?	20:55
djszapi	kulve: cli	20:55
kulve	in this case the share-ui is launched from the gallery application. I'm not sure if I can launch it	20:55
ieatlint	djszapi: indeed... i'm trying to not be too biased since it's microsoft and it killed off a platform i love	20:55
ieatlint	but i really do not like it	20:56
kulve	and if I launch the gallery application from the command line I didn't see qDebugs nor qCriticals	20:56
Avengence	lumia = gimped N9	20:56
Avengence	good hardware, crap OS	20:56
djszapi	kulve: you can print to any log files, but you can also get qDebug work by enabling the qt debug things properly.	20:56
ieatlint	i got slightly less angry at it when i found out what happens when you hold down the back button	20:56
kulve	djszapi: ok	20:56
ieatlint	the lumia 900 will be disorienting... larger than the n9, but otherwise looks damn near identical again	20:56
djszapi	ieatlint: I like Windows 7 for instance, but the metroui is creepy in /my/ opinion.	20:56
ieatlint	djszapi: well, metro is win8, so enjoy :P	20:57
ieatlint	it's depressing that nokia's first LTE phone will be a windows phone	20:57
djszapi	I cannot run multiple applications simultaneously (no taskbar).	20:57
djszapi	the camera zoom in/out are also creepy, icons are squared rectangles, and so on. cannot swipe between screen, just home or back	20:58
ieatlint	djszapi: for "multitasking", hold down the back button	20:58
djszapi	orientation does not follow the turning of the device in my hand properly, just in 10%, I need to register a Windows Live ID for almost everything, there is no KDE on that, no Qt, and not even C++, the VKB is awful.	20:58
Avengence	the underlying OS is wince so c/c++, but unless you hack it you can't write native, just silverblight and whatever the fuck the gimped xbox sdk is called	21:00
ieatlint	yeah, many of the built in apps are c++	21:00
djszapi	well, I have access to the native SDK in my company, but cannot really publish what I write.	21:01
ieatlint	MS keeps excitedly telling me tha IE on the phone is from the same code branch as the desktop one	21:01
djszapi	ieatlint: when I saw IE, well I started crying :)	21:01
ieatlint	"that's great, but seeing as i couldn't do that if i wanted to, it means dick to me"	21:01
djszapi	even here, the demon ?! :)	21:01
djszapi	haha	21:01
Avengence	i did winmob devel (5.x) for a few years for us govt and to really do anything useful required making custom sdk by shoving a bunch of the wince files into the winmob sdk	21:01
djszapi	the settings dialog is also a joke in a sense	21:04
ieatlint	a lot of nokians i've met seem to think qt will come to windows phone this year	21:04
ieatlint	i'll believe it when i see it	21:04
djszapi	well, we need native SDK first.	21:05
ieatlint	i think MS has already said there will be some sort of native SDK for the next release, but they haven't detailed any restrictions or anything	21:06
djszapi	if that happens, the community can at least make a proper qt port.	21:06
ieatlint	sadly, the path forward for someone who wants to keep writing qt for phones is android	21:07
djszapi	said it half a year ago :)	21:07
djszapi	or the new Nokia feature phone in progress.	21:08
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ieatlint	that sounds about as exciting as symbian belle	21:09
ieatlint	as i understand, meltemi will be qml only for apps	21:09
djszapi	btw, from today (Qt5 && Harmattan): http://lists.qt-project.org/pipermail/development/2012-January/001371.html	21:09
djszapi	ieatlint: ...and what is wrong about qml2 ? :)	21:10
RST38h	ieatlint: Who said it will be QML at all?	21:10
ieatlint	djszapi: it doesn't exist :P	21:11
ieatlint	plus, it doesn't solve the reasons we need to use c++ backends with harmattan for instance	21:11
ieatlint	if they have more components, it could be possible, but even then...	21:11
djszapi	I am pretty sure it is gonna be immature as usual ;-)	21:12
ieatlint	perhaps it'll allow you to create compiles imports you can use	21:12
ieatlint	compiled	21:12
djszapi	but at least the community can port Qt5 Harmattan	21:12
djszapi	to*	21:13
ieatlint	if there's a reasonable performance boost, sure	21:13
djszapi	that, and significant feature boost	21:13
ieatlint	but v8 and scene graph are the only things i've seen that i find interesting	21:14
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ieatlint	yeah, shaders and such in qml2...	21:14
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djszapi	plus many things from KDE.	21:14
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ieatlint	heh, someone just pushed code to me for production that has the minor bug of disabling the touchscreen driver :P	21:28
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: djszapi M4rtinK can you try my deb to see what i mean by wierd camera behaviour?	21:29
ieatlint	link?	21:30
ZogG_laptop	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2336306/imgrup_0.0.4.beta_armel.deb	21:31
djszapi	I cannot	21:32
ieatlint	ah, already have 0.0.3 installed ;)	21:32
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: it;s 0,0,4,3	21:33
ieatlint	this is?	21:33
ZogG_laptop	0.0.4,2 was last and in this i wanted to add camera	21:33
ieatlint	says 0.0.4.2 on the installer	21:33
ZogG_laptop	i didn't change version yet is it's not finshed	21:34
ieatlint	ah, i see	21:34
ieatlint	i have the app open and in camera mode	21:34
ieatlint	it is indeed the wrong orientation	21:34
ieatlint	how are you using the camera module?	21:34
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: landscape is ok though	21:35
ieatlint	yes	21:36
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: reported bug	21:36
ieatlint	i thought there was a way to have the native camera app launch, take a picture, and then send the path of that pic to your app so you could use it	21:36
ZogG_laptop	just wanted to be sure	21:36
ieatlint	that way you get full featues of the camera app without reinventing the wheel/changing the familiar ui	21:37
ZogG_laptop	meh it would be lame	21:37
ZogG_laptop	opening app takes time and you can set the setting of minimul quality reuest	21:37
ieatlint	can or can't?	21:38
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: actually i used buildin component of qml in qtmediakit	21:38
ZogG_laptop	ieatlint: in app you can as you have a lot of settings and you control you	21:39
ZogG_laptop	last you = ui	21:39
ieatlint	well, assume you have to work around the bug	21:39
jonni	ZogG_laptop: did you already tried the rotation: 90 thingie that I pasted yesterday to you?	21:39
ieatlint	because even if they try to fix it, i wouldn't count on it making pr1.2	21:39
ieatlint	and pr1.3 i think is still a maybe with an unknown future date	21:39
djszapi	and unknown feature list	21:40
djszapi	(or bugfix list)	21:40
ZogG_laptop	wontfix bug list	21:40
djszapi	(if there is PR1.3 at all)	21:40
ZogG_laptop	jonni: i tryed but it has no such componenet	21:41
jonni	ZogG_laptop: hmm, rectancle ? :)	21:41
ieatlint	i'm just hoping pr1.2 hits soon	21:41
lucido	I really wish they'd come up with harmattan 1-2 years ago	21:41
ieatlint	they did, and it was called maemo	21:42
ieatlint	and the n900 was released 2+ years ago	21:42
ieatlint	and it was awesome	21:42
jonni	ZogG_laptop: afaik rectancle has rotation :)	21:42
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djszapi	Item has it.	21:43
djszapi	and Rectangle inherits that	21:44
ieatlint	the n900's camera still gives the n9 a decent challenge	21:44
ieatlint	especially with the low level control... the hdr app is still awesome	21:44
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djszapi	ieatlint: ...and the Lumia camera management... ;-)	21:44
djszapi	(on software side)	21:45
ieatlint	if the n950 had the 12mp camera module and low level access like the n900......	21:45
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djszapi	N900 had 12 MP ?	21:46
ieatlint	no, 5	21:47
ieatlint	i mean low level access like the n900	21:47
djszapi	for what ?	21:47
ieatlint	you could get the raw image off the ccd	21:48
ieatlint	and nokia research used a group of university students to make an awesome hdr app for it	21:48
djszapi	what did that app do ?	21:49
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ieatlint	took X photos at different exposures/shutter speeds in rapid succession, then merged them together so you had incredible colour and depth	21:49
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djszapi	well, the community can do whatever they want out of Harmattan after a while soon when there are no official maintenance releases anymore ;-)	21:53
ieatlint	wish i had the time to do anything in that regard	21:54
djszapi	well, as for Nokia proper, there is no need for such an access anyway since they goddevelopers ;-)	21:55
djszapi	are*	21:55
djszapi	I think there might be some post-Harmatan community doing releases. It is not that bad hardware after all.	21:58
ieatlint	i still wish the nfc stuff was finished, and SNEP (a p2p protocol) is added	21:58
ieatlint	am hoping that will appear in pr1.2	21:58
ieatlint	i'm led to believe that one can implement parts of the missing nfc support via direct dbus calls, but again, no time these days :(	21:59
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djszapi	ieatlint: seems Quim has Qt5 running on N950: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpK4V3Jr40	22:03
ieatlint	yep, donald carr got it working	22:03
djszapi	yeah: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/11/21/testing-qtquick-2-on-your-n9n950/	22:04
ieatlint	i worked with him briefly on the raspberry pi stuff	22:04
djszapi	it would be nice if they can send those out.	22:05
djszapi	could*	22:05
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ieatlint	should be very soon, although i know nothing extra	22:05
djszapi	I guess it is gonna work by FOSDEM.	22:05
ieatlint	ok, me food, bbl	22:05
admiral0	djszapi: you work for nokia?	22:08
admiral0	(hi)	22:08
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djszapi	Hi. nope, but for the Nokia project. :)	22:09
oytunx	djszapi: hope not get involved for aegis project	22:11
djszapi	I have been one of the developers behind it..	22:12
oytunx	nice job!	22:13
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admiral0	i just got my "made in finland" N9 and i'm missing some things	22:16
admiral0	like an IRC cllient	22:16
admiral0	s/cll/cl/	22:17
infobot	admiral0 meant: like an IRC client	22:17
admiral0	and also saw my bug closed as WONTFIX :(	22:17
djszapi	admiral0: irc-chatter I use.	22:18
djszapi	admiral0: j.mp/uS4sL3	22:18
admiral0	thank you djszapi	22:20
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admiral0	what do you think about this? https://harmattan-bugs.nokia.com/show_bug.cgi?id=584	22:21
_MeeGoBot_	Bug 584 enh, ---, ---, ext-risto.lahti, RESO WONTFIX, Add API to add custom pages to meegotouchhome	22:21
wirwe	admiral0: irssi is available in the store, if you like simplicity.	22:25
admiral0	i stopped using irssi, was bad for my mental health	22:25
djszapi	irssi is everything but simple on handsets.	22:26
djszapi	(in /my/ opinion)	22:26
admiral0	and irc chatter stuck on connecting forever -.-	22:28
wirwe	it is okay if one doesn't want to be online all the time^^	22:28
djszapi	admiral0: do you have the network working properly ?	22:29
admiral0	yep	22:29
djszapi	mobile internet ?	22:29
admiral0	downloaded deb on the device	22:29
admiral0	no, home wifi	22:29
admiral0	device froze :O	22:30
djszapi	try to reboot.	22:30
admiral0	rebooting	22:31
petteri	admiral0: if you jus got your N9 and it is not running PR1.1, try updating it	22:32
djszapi	admiral0: your FR is not that bad, but it would make the whole thing cluttered.	22:32
djszapi	I personally like the simplicity.	22:32
admiral0	cluttered if user is dumb	22:33
admiral0	the frustrating fact is that even android users can customise that with a simple application	22:34
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admiral0	and i consider meego-nokia more dev-friendly than that	22:35
djszapi	You asked my opinion, but I like it this simple =)	22:35
admiral0	yes, i understand, i like it too	22:36
admiral0	but i want it even better	22:36
admiral0	most n900 interesting stuff was either a widget or a status area plugin	22:37
admiral0	this would make happy a lot of ex n900 users	22:37
admiral0	(still connecting forever)	22:37
admiral0	is http://apps.javispedro.com/nit/hicg/ broken?	22:41
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djszapi	seems so.	22:46
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djszapi	I have just written an email to javispedro.	22:48
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admiral0	man need to emerge php for it :(	22:54
amppa	ok, this is just stupid	22:54
amppa	all N9 devices in RDA have PR1.1	22:55
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djszapi	amppa: I can help tomorrow with PR1.0	22:57
amppa	that would be very nice	22:58
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e-yes	btw, if meego-nokia is "more friendly"...	23:14
e-yes	why they still publish kernel source code as dumb snapshot (instead of pushing it to external git repo) ?	23:14
djszapi	what would be the benefit to change the whole procedure how it has been working for a while ?	23:16
djszapi	there are no manpower for such a change anyway.	23:16
e-yes	to make it really more	23:16
e-yes	more dev-friendly	23:17
djszapi	witout manpower ?	23:17
djszapi	without*	23:17
djszapi	and I wish this was the most serious problem ever, really ;-)	23:17
e-yes	manpower? are you kidding? (git push externalremotename megadevelopment_branch -- is it really hard??)	23:19
ieatlint	i also fail to see exactly what that would do	23:19
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ieatlint	if you want it in git, put it in git	23:20
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e-yes	merging, back/forward porting, history/logs	23:20
djszapi	e-yes: and refactor the whole continous integration, static analyzers, all the build servers, all the test servers	23:21
ieatlint	yeah, that was never going to happen	23:21
djszapi	do not kid, it is a whole process, not about a git push.	23:21
djszapi	try to think in systems	23:21
ieatlint	that would include internal info as well	23:21
e-yes	heh. why this happening with google?	23:21
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e-yes	(and a lot of companies in the world)	23:22
e-yes	even nokia itself uses gitorious for qt development	23:22
ieatlint	you mean google's reference kernel?	23:22
e-yes	i mean google reference kernel (aka common), emulator (goldfish) and device specific branches (tuna, maguro)	23:23
djszapi	e-yes: no it does not	23:23
djszapi	actually even qt4 was ported to gerrit today	23:23
ieatlint	considering the other openness issues in harmattan, methinks you're picking an add one to make an issue of	23:23
djszapi	and qt5 has already been on gerrit for a quite while.	23:24
e-yes	well gerrit != git	23:24
djszapi	not sure how you confuse that in here.	23:24
djszapi	you said, Nokia uses gitorious for qt, no it does not	23:24
e-yes	don't mess vcs and codereview system. and CI too;)	23:24
djszapi	anyway, I do not see the point of this complain :)	23:25
e-yes	i suspect you don't waste time (right now) trying to merge/cherry-pick commits from 2.6.39 to nokia-provided-crapshot	23:27
djszapi	actually my opinion is opposite. Intel left the existing and working procedure at Nokia	23:28
djszapi	when we worked with Intel on MeeGo. They always wanted to reinvent the wheel on "open" sites for no real reasons.	23:28
djszapi	that is one reason behind the big meego fail.	23:28
ieatlint	and why tizen will succeed	23:29
djszapi	that is a valid question ;-	23:29
djszapi	;-)	23:29
djszapi	but Intel reinvented the wheel over there in many aspects as well :)	23:30
e-yes	what relation does Intel have to kernel snapshot for Nokia N9?	23:30
djszapi	Intel wanted the same like you	23:30
djszapi	and they hilariously failed.	23:30
djszapi	Nokia did not want, and Nokia is still alive.	23:30
e-yes	Murtazin says it's not	23:32
* e-yes switched on trolling mode too		23:32
ieatlint	uh, wait, how is inel dead and nokia alive?	23:32
ieatlint	intel	23:32
ieatlint	they both are off meego..	23:33
djszapi	meego was done at the end by Intel right ?	23:33
djszapi	Harmattan was done by Nokia, right ?	23:33
djszapi	meego is dead, Harmattan is still alive to a sort.	23:33
e-yes	доктор сказал в морг. хуле	23:33
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ieatlint	it's been sundowned since release	23:33
ieatlint	canceled, and the teams gutted, but not 100% dead	23:34
djszapi	I do not see any point in refactoring a whole, more years old and working process	23:34
djszapi	just for the sake of changing, and with all its risks to even make a sillier result than it is now.	23:34
djszapi	Harmattan was not cancelled as far as I know	23:35
djszapi	MeeGo was.	23:35
ieatlint	ok, not cancelled, just gutted of developers	23:35
djszapi	this is pointless, it is still developed	23:36
djszapi	what I wanted to show is the Intel way got dead, and this was exactly the way asked abo ve.	23:36
djszapi	(a.k.a. change everything radically for the sake of fail)	23:37
djszapi	sadly, Intel has been doing the same game with Tizen, today debian, but future rpm, and so on..	23:38
ieatlint	sounds like there should be committee setup to discuss this	23:39
* mgedmin grins		23:39
djszapi	back to the cherry pick things, it is probably not a real problem actually	23:44
djszapi	since the common changes were more or less upstreamed, and just the really specific additions not. So if there is even a conflicting situation, it should not be that hard to resolve imo.	23:44
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e-yes	upstreamed. something already in mainline kernel, something not yet, something rejected. something was not submitted	23:51
djszapi	the common things are more or less upstreamed.	23:52
djszapi	and there are not many things like that after all	23:52
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e-yes	djszapi, cap	23:52
djszapi	evening Venemo :)	23:52
Venemo	hey djszapi :)	23:52
djszapi	Venemo: admiral0 has some issues with irc-chatter	23:53
Venemo	admiral0, hi! :) could you please join #irc-chatter and tell me more about your issues?	23:53
Venemo	oh, by the way	23:54
* Venemo has fallen to the dark side.		23:54
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ieatlint	?	23:55
ieatlint	switched to android?	23:55
Venemo	nope, worse	23:56
ieatlint	or do i need to just start laughing at you for using the lumia 800?	23:56
Venemo	yeah... :P	23:56
* ieatlint points and laughs		23:56
Venemo	thanks :P	23:56
ieatlint	np	23:57
Venemo	also, not just using it, developing for it as well.	23:57
petteri	:(	23:58
ieatlint	nokia will be pleased to know that they actually got a convert	23:58
djszapi	Venemo: we are not friends anymore, you know ? ;)	23:58
Venemo	I'm not fully converted...	23:58
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Venemo	I'm also developing for Harmattan still :)	23:58
djszapi	port C# to Harmy ? :P	23:58
djszapi	or the metroui ? ;)	23:59
Venemo	what'd be the point of doin that?	23:59
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djszapi	well, C# is not that bad, I would like to get it ported, for instance mono	23:59

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