IRC log of #harmattan for Thursday, 2011-07-21

piggzif anyone in the n950 club want to update their google latitude, you can now! (i hope ;)
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Noobmonk3yoooooooooo :) nice piggz00:01
Noobmonk3yis it me, or does the n950 have a pretty damn good battery life?00:01
piggzits better than the n900, but no symbian killer :)00:01
Noobmonk3yhave not put a sim in it for 2 days, but it has been on with 4 apps running, still 70+% battery00:01
Noobmonk3ystill has been connected to wireless and used a bit00:02
javispedrois it you, when you use it heavily it is slightly higher than n900 only00:02
Noobmonk3ylol true :P00:02
javispedroconsidering my n900 battery is two years old that's no compliment.00:02
Noobmonk3ymy sgs2 is better then the n900 (not hard) but still down to 20% by bedtime normalyl00:02
piggzim sure if i took the sim out of my 950, it would have great battery life...its 3g internet that is the killer while @ work00:03
Noobmonk3yyeah gd point00:03
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piggzright, im off for the welcome if anyone test the latitude app00:08
javispedrofor example I've had to try and remove the 10Hz tick in paused SDL applications... otherwise they suck the battery badly, for some reason even more than on n900..00:10
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mgedmincrevetor, same url?00:22
crevetormgedmin: yes00:22
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mgedminso, you don't believe in version numbers? :)00:23
crevetornaaah ;)00:23
mgedminhm, still seems wrong00:24
mgedminseems 90 degrees flipped00:25
crevetorin portrait or landscape ?00:25
mgedminso, in portrait, horizontally, screen top pointing north: arrow shows north correctly00:25
mgedminturn 90 degrees so screen top points east: arrow now points to the south00:26
crevetorit does weird things when I tilt the device...00:26
mgedminturn 90 degrees more, screen top points south: arrow shows north correctly00:26
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SpeedEvilDoing it right is hard00:26
mgedminturn 90 degrees more, screen top points west: arrow shows south again00:26
SpeedEvilyou need to work out where the earths surface is, and project a notional compass onto it00:26
SpeedEvilAnd then have the display as a viewport onto this notional compass00:27
mgedminjust write a set of unit tests :)00:27
mgedminand then play with minus signs until they pass00:27
mgedminscreen top points north-east: arrow now points east00:27
crevetoranyways got to go...00:27
mgedmincrevetor, can has source code please?00:28
crevetorhold on a sec00:28
vandenoeverwhat is a good SVG editor for use with QML? inkscape save svg 1.2 which is too new00:28
javispedrotoo new for what?00:29
vandenoeverfor use with qml00:29
SpeedEvilYou start out with the geomagnetic model at your location, to get the dip angle of the field (ideally), then use that and then use the accel to get 'down', and work out the angle between down and the magnetic field, then go from there00:29
javispedroqt accepted svg 1.2 way back nearly 3 or 4 years ago00:29
vandenoeverthe files i make with inkscape and save as plain svg look bad00:29
javispedrobad in what way?00:29
vandenoeversvg 1.2 is not  a standard yet00:29
vandenoevertransparent box with black text looks like black box on device00:30
javispedrovandenoever: tiny00:30
vandenoeverright, svg 1.2 tiny would be fine00:30
vandenoeverbut that's not what inkscape purports to save00:31
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javispedrowhich version of inkscape are you using?00:32
mgedmincrevetor, thanks!00:33
crevetorOk I'm off00:34
mgedmin*grumble* *grumble* github has better UI *grumble*00:34
crevetorsee ya00:34
crevetoroh well..00:34
javispedrovandenoever: I'm using r9654 (a bit later than 0.48 iirc) and it saves 1.1 save for soome stuff about flowed text00:34
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mgedminwhat's the git clone URL for that repo?00:34
mgedminah, I can click on "QMLCompass" and *then* gitorious will tel me00:34
mgedminso, time to install Qt Creator, I guess00:35
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vandenoeverjavispedro: i want normal text, not flowed text and when i create text box it's saved as flowed text for no apparent reason00:37
mgedminoh dear, I remember seeing a web page describing the installation process somewhere...00:45
mgedminthere are so many web pages and so little space in my memory/bookmarks00:46
mgedminI gather I have to do a custom install, since harmattan support is "experimental" and not enabled by default00:47
javispedrobah, I still prefer IRC to twitter.00:47
mgedminwill I need Qt Designer?  I recall hearing on IRC that it "doesn't work"00:47
javispedrovandenoever: there was a FAQ item about that00:48
javispedrovandenoever: google a bit, it was something about right click then convert to sth00:48
javispedrothe nth-char limit on twitter makes my arguments sound dumb.00:49
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DocScrutinizerdang, this QMLcompass is nuts!00:52
javispedroit probably just follows that qorientation sensor00:53
javispedrobtw since my aegis "lock-out" I've not been able to add my nokia account information again ("Service not available")00:54
javispedroDocScrutinizer: you have?00:55
DocScrutinizererr, it started to work after reflash here00:55
DocScrutinizerinitially I had "service not..."00:56
* javispedro sighs00:56
javispedroso it might actually really be a server failure?00:56
mgedminwhich builds do I need? Harmattan Platform API or Meego 1.2 Harmattan API?00:58
DocScrutinizerlemme check if it works right now00:58
rm_workmgedmin: my stuff fails equally well on both :P00:58
DocScrutinizermaps err !!Maps just starts00:59
mgedminwhoa, FakeVim? sounds interesting00:59
javispedroDocScrutinizer: !!maps does start here indeed, and it shows background disabled map, then popups Nokia login prompt01:00
javispedroand clicking on it gets me "Service not available" in ~1 sec, too short for at imeout01:00
DocScrutinizernot here, just woks01:00
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javispedrothat's how it used to work pre-lockout01:00
javispedrowonder if I will have to reflash again..01:01
rm_workis there a package list anywhere?01:01
rm_workhow do i actually find anything to install?01:01
DocScrutinizerwell it recovered from fist lockout with 3 reboots... ;-P01:01
rm_workdon't see a package manager01:02
javispedro3 reflashes, haha01:02
javispedrorm_work: there's no extras-devel, no nokia store...01:02
rm_workalso BTW, maps loads for me01:02
DocScrutinizerI wonder where's that friggin accounts in settings01:03
javispedroDocScrutinizer: it's not in settings, but rather separate app01:03
DocScrutinizerlemme try search01:03
mgedminthis qt creator thing is fancy01:03
mgedminand the emulation is in-effing-credibly slow01:04
DocScrutinizerouch, that took a while. I felt aegis workin in background, til screen came up01:04
mgedminiirc there's a way to have qt creator deploy to my n950?01:05
rm_workmgedmin: yeah and it works well01:06
rm_workmgedmin: there's docs somewhere i found for setting it up, it's pretty easy01:06
mgedmintools -> options -> maemo -> add!01:06
rm_workyou run the SDK app on the device, and it will give you the password it needs to deplot the ssh keys01:06
DocScrutinizerasks me for password when trying to sync01:06
mgedminoh, I need to run something on the device01:07
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DocScrutinizerbut yeah, seems to work01:08
* javispedro sighs01:08
javispedroreflash time01:08
mgedmin"Could not connect to host: Botan library exception: Botan: Decoding error: BER: Length field is too large"01:09
mgedminusing a pubkey that I've just deployed01:09
DocScrutinizer butanlib01:09
mgedminit works when I use password auth01:09
* mgedmin shrugs and checks /home/developer/authorized_keys01:09
* javispedro ponders a best way to solve qole's aegis problems01:10
javispedrohe would need to keep a list of digsigs for the chroot image's binaries01:11
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: prior to reflash try the several reset options01:11
javispedroand when mounting it programatically load them into kernel01:11
antman8969has anyone seen how to make a number only vkb without having to create a custom one?01:11
javispedrobecause from reading the code the validor keeps the hashlist per mounted device/superblock01:11
DocScrutinizerqole's problem?01:11
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: author of EasyDebian -- a .deb with a large .ext2 image that is mounted, chrooted into, and contains a full Debian installation01:12
DocScrutinizerno way to attach external storage?01:12
javispedroof course you can attach external storage01:12
javispedroit's just that aegis will refuse to run anything from it01:12
javispedro(exception: "developer mode" and current_user=="user")01:13
DocScrutinizerthought as much01:13
javispedrootherwise, he might want to drop the idea of using images alltogether, now that / is ext4.01:13
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mgedminwoot, it runs!01:13
mgedminI'm awesome01:14
* DocScrutinizer got the feeling to be out of loop01:15
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: seen N950 "KIT light"?01:15
javispedroDocScrutinizer: got that feeling too, I am very busy this week with no time to follow all news... and next's week I might be away.01:16
javispedros/'s// ;P01:16
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: did a lil facy and messed with LEDs01:16
javispedrovideo? :)01:17
DocScrutinizer[2011-07-20 21:17:59] <DocScrutinizer> echo "open kbd, lock device01:17
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DocScrutinizerwas boted :-D01:18
TSCHAKeeearg, i am having issues deploying from Qt Creator. It installs the qml files alongside my application in /opt01:18
javispedro (my post)01:18
TSCHAKeeebut it's looking for the qml files in /home/developer01:18
TSCHAKeeedoes nayone know how to fix this?01:18
javispedroDocScrutinizer: early this week I tried to get fmrx working01:18
javispedrosee that post for a few details01:18
javispedrono luck so far01:19
javispedrobut I can confirm there's the tuner, it can tune, and it can report signal strength. But I don't know how to get the audio.01:19
javispedro(and signal strength greatly increases when HPs are connected)01:19
* TSCHAKeee has no forehead ridges left from banging head against wall.01:19
TSCHAKeeejavispedro: maybe there's a hidden i2c port somewhere? ;)01:19
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: nice :-D01:20
javispedroTSCHAKeee: there's probably a i2_s_ port somewhere ;)01:20
rm_workwhat is it with nokia putting radios in things and then hiding the fact that it exists? :P01:20
DocScrutinizernow you hooked me01:21
TSCHAKeeeso nobody has had issues with qml files loading from a QtCreator deployment?01:21
rm_workTSCHAKeee: i sat down and installed QtCreator and did the setup in like 5 minutes, and it worked fine for the hello world app01:21
rm_workand worked fine for my projects afterwards...01:21
DocScrutinizerrm_work: I'm ahppy about it, otherwise here you had to pay montly fee01:21
mgedminyay, got qmlcompass to point north!01:21
rm_worki assume it's an issue with your config for QtCreator01:21
rm_workDocScrutinizer: what? montly fee to ... recieve radio signals?01:22
mgedminin portrait mode01:22
DocScrutinizerrm_work: sure!01:22
rm_workDocScrutinizer: to WHO? cellphone company?01:22
DocScrutinizererr, the radio station01:23
mgedminwhee vim mode is just awesome01:23
DocScrutinizeractually it's a bit more complex01:23
rm_workhow do they know you are recieving signals?01:23
DocScrutinizerthey got *spies*01:23
rm_workwhen you buy a radio from walmart do they require you to sign up and pay? >_>01:23
mgedminok, OrientationSensor is not the right thing to use01:24
mgedminhow do I discover if my app is in landscape or in portrait mode in QML?01:24
rm_workDocScrutinizer: ok, i officially completely do not understand what you're talking about then01:24
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DocScrutinizersimple as that01:25
DocScrutinizer99.6% are paying, the rest gets an occasional visit01:25
rm_workno, still totally not making sense01:28
rm_workit seems like they're trying to do something that is logistically impossible01:28
rm_workthere is no real way to enforce this at all01:28
rm_workor even really get metrics on enforcement01:28
rm_workwell heading home...01:30
rm_worki'll watch that when i get home01:30
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: I extended the post, and added v4l packages:
javispedroit has instructions and brief dmesg dumps01:33
DocScrutinizerrm_you: they really get spies that run around and ring doors and watch windows to spot TV users that aren't on their list of paying customers01:33
DocScrutinizerrm_you: 2013 the state enforces the fee on each household01:34
DocScrutinizerso no more spy ringing your door01:34
DocScrutinizerrm_you: you should know first and 2nd channel, as the regional ones, are public hand01:35
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DocScrutinizerit was only like 1990 when we go tcommercial radio broadcast and TV at all here in Germany01:36
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DocScrutinizerright now you have to pay for your PC connected to internet, as you *could* surf to URLs like www.tagesschau.de01:37
DocScrutinizerI'm wondering why they don't offer radio via landline phone call-in and then charge for each telephone01:39
mgedminwoot, fixed qmlcompass!01:39
DocScrutinizerobviously they did as well, so from 2013 on they charge *every* household, no matter if you got a radio / TV or not01:40
DocScrutinizermgedmin: aaah, so no more weird rotations?01:40
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: cool01:40
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: feel free to reproduce, I'm sure it must be a stupid overlook on my part01:41
DocScrutinizermgedmin: same ly.tyty URL?01:41
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mgedmincrevetor's last version (same url) works fine in portrait mode01:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: a) which chip is the FMRX on?01:41
javispedroDocScrutinizer: wl127301:41
mgedmincorrection: works fine while the orientation sensor returns TopUp01:42
DocScrutinizerb) do we have a I2S for that chip?01:42
DocScrutinizerumm then no01:42
javispedroif anyone has 1273 for that chip I'd appreciate.01:42
DocScrutinizerlemme check what I found "back when"01:42
javispedrotechnically, the chip has01:42
javispedroan "analog" path for fmrx01:43
javispedroand a "digital" path, which seems to be connected to a mcbsp something, which seems to be somekind of DMA (my knowledge of McBSP is nil at best)01:43
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javispedrothe analog path -- no idea where it is connected. if it is at all.01:44
DocScrutinizerJul  9 17:12:43 (none) kernel: [    0.214965] ALSA device list:01:44
DocScrutinizerJul  9 17:12:43 (none) kernel: [    0.214996]   #0: dfl61-twl4030 (twl4030)01:44
DocScrutinizerJul  9 17:12:43 (none) kernel: [    0.214996]   #1: dfl61-dac33 (tlv320dac33)01:44
javispedroDocScrutinizer: missing #2 ;)01:44
DocScrutinizerno #2 here01:44
javispedrocheck /proc/asound/cards01:44
javispedroaiui it is loaded as a module a bit later on the boot process01:45
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DocScrutinizerJul  9 17:12:43 (none) kernel: [    0.272552] asoc: WL1273 BT/FM codec <-> omap-mcbsp-dai-2 mapping ok01:46
javispedrothis is the same way the std audio codec for speakers is connected, albeit on a different channel01:47
DocScrutinizerJul  9 17:12:43 (none) kernel: [    5.580261] wl1273_fm_module_init01:47
DocScrutinizerls -l /dev/snd/01:49
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javispedrowell, no idea, and no documentation.01:52
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mgedminwhere's the deb that qt creator creates?01:54
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: amixer -c201:54
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mgedminoh, it's outside my build dir01:54
DocScrutinizernow say "thanks!" :-P01:54
javispedroDocScrutinizer: note my updated post, I edit several channels already ;P01:55
DocScrutinizerwhich channels?01:55
javispedrobut those are not documented either, albeit I mostly know what the Mode, Audio, and Codec Mode mixers do by now.01:55
DocScrutinizerindeed quite some update on #501:56
mgedminDocScrutinizer, you can try
mgedminnow how do I send the patch to crevetor?01:56
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* mgedmin creates a merge request on gitorious02:00
* DocScrutinizer *curses* missing c&p on e.g xterm02:01
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DocScrutinizerHAH, I only need I guess02:02
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DocScrutinizerobviously not02:05
mgedminwant a link?02:05
mgedminhey, why doesn't front page list all the irc logs I'm archiving?02:06
mgedmin'cause I'm a lazy bastard, that's why02:06
javispedrosome food for thought:02:11
DocScrutinizermgedmin: please reduce decimals of accuracy to max 5 ;-P02:11
javispedroat the moment, thanks to aegis, webos guys can run a debian chroot more easily than we can on n950.02:12
javispedro(otoh, we can run custom kernels. they are stuck with stock)02:12
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javispedroor "we will be able to" run custom kernels ;)02:13
DocScrutinizerbtw on 33.876676857567% accuracy this thing is outright useless02:14
javispedrohow does it measure accuracy?02:14
* javispedro installs this qmlcompass knowing that my device is FULLY safe and SANBOXED thanks to Aegis....02:15
DocScrutinizerbut at 66.6666666665348816% it starts to work02:15
javispedromgedmin: was your patch supposed to lock orientation?02:16
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DocScrutinizernope not here02:16
javispedroI think this is clearly one application that should be locked02:17
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mgedminjavispedro, no, I don't know how to do that02:22
mgedminmy diff is at
mgedminI agree that locking is the right thing here02:23
mgedminDocScrutinizer, accuracy was always 100% when I played with it :)02:24
DocScrutinizerI got 33.3333333432674408%, and 66.66666666667846746some% so far02:26
mgedminqml/main.qml:             text: "Accuracy : " + accuracy*100 + "%, angle : " + angle + "°"02:26
DocScrutinizerand 0% when I shocked the thing with a speaker magnet02:26
mgedminhow do I round things up in what is this, javascript?02:27
DocScrutinizerI'd suggest 1 bar for >33%, 2 bars for >66%, and 3 bars (full) for >95%02:28
ElleoMath.round() iirc02:29
DocScrutinizeralso getting this as a plugin for camera would be really nice :-)02:29
DocScrutinizereben printed into the picture taken02:30
mgedminmy sister was surprised Maps wasn't making use of the compass for rotation02:30
mgedminor was it Drive?02:30
DocScrutinizeror in those additional info02:30
mgedminok, Math.round worked02:32
TSCHAKeee <-- the new orbiter prototype coming up for the very first time on the n95002:32
mgedminbuilding a .deb now ...02:33
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mgedminhow do I update the .deb version number from Qt Creator?02:34
mgedminif I edit debian_harmattan/changelog directly and then press Build, it says "no changes, etc, nothing to be done"02:35
mgedminoh, I need to Run, not just Build, if I want a .deb02:35
mgedminDocScrutinizer, reports accuracy as 33% or 67%02:36
mgedminyou'll have to talk to the original author about bars02:36
mgedminmy sister's android phone has a compass app that doesn't show accuracy02:37
mgedminbut when you put a magnet next to it, pops up a box with text "abnormal magnetic field located, please (do something that I didn't read fast enough)"02:37
mgedminok, now I have to convince qt creator to build fbreader02:41
mgedmin*yawn* tomorrow02:42
DocScrutinizernight mgedmin02:42
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rm_yougrah i srsly need a development VM03:16
rm_youerr wait03:16
rm_youQtCreator works in windoze doesn't it T_T03:16
rm_youi was making this way too difficult03:17
* rm_you fails03:17
MohammadAGCan't imagine how clumsy cmd prompt will be, for cli stuff at least03:17
rm_youit'll be bad but not having to reboot my desktop will make it worth it i hope03:19
MohammadAGcontacted ddp today, got a standard answer :/03:19
rm_youMohammadAG: problems?03:20
MohammadAGyeah, I start getting impatient after two weeks :P03:21
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npmhow do I solve "Error: 'Configured videosink video-output-bin is not working."' when playing video in ??04:03
npmi guess it's time to poke around w/ gconftool-204:04
rm_youwhat's the most basic container in QML?04:28
rm_youi guess the thing i don't understand is: we have these QML widget galleries installed that show all kinds of awesome widgets... but I don't get access to any of them in QtCreator? >_>04:29
rm_youi have 12 total elements04:29
rm_youthat i can use04:30
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rm_youtotally need someone who knows QML well >_>04:45
rm_youi guess so does everyone04:45
rm_youwhy do the first two elements i put on a window ALWAYS disappear?04:56
rm_youthis is so frustrating05:11
hiemanshurm_you: eh?05:30
hiemanshurm_you: what are you trying to do?05:30
rm_youmake a super simple UI05:30
rm_youi want to have two spinners05:30
rm_youthat's IT.05:30
rm_youthat's the whole UI05:31
rm_youit's complicated slightly by lack of spinners05:31
rm_youand then slightly more by the first two things i add not showing up05:31
rm_youso i've now put two trash elements at the top of my app so they eat the "deadzone" or whatever it is05:31
hiemanshudo you use a layout?05:32
rm_youusing a Page05:32
rm_youlike... the default app05:32
hiemanshudo you use a layout?05:32
hiemanshuin no, read about anchor based layouts, works fine for most implementations05:33
infobothiemanshu meant: if no, read about anchor based layouts, works fine for most implementations05:33
rm_youi'm anchoring things inside the page05:33
rm_youdo i NEED a layout container?05:34
rm_youi'm trying to figure out what the default "pane" or whatever is05:34
hiemanshurm_you: can I see your code?05:34
rm_youevery other UI toolkit i've used has some standard container05:34
rm_yousure, sec05:34
rm_yousimultaneously watching Day9 SC2 :P05:34
hiemanshuwell I am using anchors for my app, everything shows up just fine05:35
rm_youhrm k05:35
rm_youdo elements stack on top of each other in QML?05:35
rm_youi've been assuming they nudge each other05:36
hiemanshuthey stack up at times yes if dont have the anchoring done fine05:36
hiemanshuatleast it did for it05:36
rm_youso, what IS the "default container" element?05:37
rm_youlike, something that does nothing besides contain other objects05:37
hiemanshuwait lemme paste some code05:37
antman8969rm_you, everything is a container05:41
antman8969is something has anything nested inside of it in QML then it contrains it05:42
rm_youi noticed but it makes no sense having things inside a button :P05:42
antman8969lol well depends. If you want a label anchored to the bottom you could have it "inside" the button (or just a sibling)05:42
antman8969usually you don't need to create rectangles just for being containers is the point05:43
antman8969and if you do, then an Item is better05:43
antman8969and Item is a Rectangle, but without any visual appearance05:43
rm_youah where is that05:46
* rm_you looks05:46
rm_youah there05:46
rm_youworking better...05:53
rm_youREALLY wish the designer worked tho05:53
rm_youfor previews >_>05:53
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tonberryN950whats the default root@localhost password for harnattan?06:02
tonberryN950cool.. thx pal06:05
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rm_youerm, how do i actually add a playlist to the media player06:08
rm_youwhat format does it use?06:08
rm_youobviously not plss or m3u06:08
infobotrm_you meant: obviously not pls or m3u06:08
rm_youhow does one increase the font size on a button?06:13
hiemanshurm_you: set the font?06:24
hiemanshurm_you: ButtonStyle06:25
rm_youit says font has no members06:25
rm_youButtonStyle *instead of* Button?06:25
hiemanshuumm, no the Button will have a ButtonStyle element06:26
rm_youit doesn't06:26
hiemanshuthats an example giving on the l.d.n.o site06:27
infobothiemanshu meant: thats an example giving on the l.d.n.c site06:27
rm_youstill trying to figure out how to make this work efficiently06:29
tonberryN950was trying root the device to home screens in landscape, but its not working06:31
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rm_youi want to make one of these:06:57
rm_youjust need the dayColumn06:57
rm_youbut it gives me syntax errors on the for loop06:57
rm_youso dumb07:05
rm_youevery time i think i'm getting it, i go try one of their examples and it doesn't work07:05
GAN900What now?07:05
rm_yousee above07:06
rm_youmy cut down version is:
rm_youapparently you can't have a for-loop in the QML? but they are doing it...07:06
rm_youi get really frustrated when none of the SAMPLE CODE ever works for me07:08
rm_youi only have like two hours per day to work on coding, and i spend 90% of it banging my head against a wall with this kind of thing07:09
rm_youi want what should be a standard widget07:09
rm_youand in GTK i would have said "give me a spinner, set min to 0, max to 50, current to 20, done"07:09
rm_youi know this is supposed to be more generic (and thus more complicated) but it's just really annoying when I was expecting this to be EASIER07:10
GAN900rm_you, connected at "dumb"07:14
GAN900Yeah, I keep running into broken sample code, too.07:14 had me tripped up for an hour.07:15
GAN900rm_you, no components?07:16
rm_youvery very few to choose from07:18
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djszapi_vgrade: still the same stage for kdelibs :(07:18
djszapi_like last night, it got stuck there..07:18
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fralsrm_you: you cant write random js code in a qml block like that08:42
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fralsrm_you: should probably work if you do items: { forloophere; return daysList }08:50
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djszapiDocScrutinizer: hah, I have just gotten the answer, it is too much work to set up a search engine on the harmattan repo side, and right now it does not work with the available manpower :)10:15
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tommaare there any svg template for harmattan icons?10:28
alteregoIf not, wouldn't be to hard to make one by tracing the .png templates in inkscape :)10:33
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fralswasnt there some huge asset with all the icons and stuff like that on the UI/UX guidelines site?10:33
alteregoI think so, unless I'm getting confused with MeeGo UX guidlines.10:35
* alterego chuckles10:35
Mekthere is a zip with some .ai files for icon templates, yes10:37
Mek(.ai files and .psd files, no free formats though)10:37
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alteregoWell, someone should create some SVGs and put them on the meego wiki.10:38
alteregoI'll probably end up doing it myself at some point ;)10:38
* gri would welcome this as I am too stupid to use Inkscape10:40
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djszapivgrade: do you have any idea what can go wrong /all/ the time after the build, before the real package creation process ? I think it is a real problem for Harmattan target in case of huge projects.10:57
rcganyone experienced with QML, ListViews in particular?11:05
rcgam somehow missing how to get the highlighting/selection to work properly11:06
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djszapircg: this is my listview code from last year :)
djszapi(I am not sure how much it changed since that)11:07
rcg^ using this code on n950.. the highlight box is always stuck at the top and selection does not work11:08
rcgdjszapi: i see.. i'll have a loot at it... though, even some minimal example as pasted above does not work(?)11:08
fralsrcg: the highlight never moves unless you move it afaik11:10
fralsie unless you navigate the list with keyboard the selected delegate is always the same iirc11:10
rcghmm ic.. but there should be a way to do selections via touch? in another example i also placed debug output to signals such as   onCurrentIndexChanged etc. but does only get fired once when the list loads.. which btw also emits onHighlightChanged11:13
fralshighlight moves with focus afaik, and it doesnt move when you scroll, unless you add the code in the delegate to change currentIndex11:16
fralswhat i usually end up doing is skip the highlight crap and just add a MouseArea in delegate and then have the background color of the delegate something like: color: mouseArea.pressed ? "white" : "black"11:17
rcghmm ic.. that might be worth a try.. it's just i am pretty confused right now as the example on e.g. kinda imply selection should work "out of the box".. and usually i would expect something like a ListView in a high level language like QML to do this selection stuff automatically or have this built in11:20
grithe qt-components have a default ListDelegate (which requires title and subtitle property)11:21
fralsrcg: try navigating the listview with arrowkeys and see if it works, i suspect it will ;)11:21
fralsbut ye, i would expect it to do something similar for touch out of the box :<11:22
rcg <-- this is the sample code i use to check this atm11:22
rcghmm well.. even with the arrowkeys nothing happens?!?11:23
fralsdoes the listview have focus?11:24
rcghmm added "focus: true" to the list view.. still the same11:26
rcgscrolling the list up and down works btw. and in another example i listened to the onYChanged signal which gets emitted when the list is scrolled11:28
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rcghmm.. in the simple example even onYChanged is not emitted. but scrolling works.11:37
rcganyway.. thanks a lot for your help all.. will let you know if i figure this out.. i feel like i am only missing a tiny bit here11:39
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vgradedjszapi, no ideas I'm afraid. lbt and X-fade on #meego are the admin s11:53
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vgradevgrade, lbt reports tat there is a publishing issue but does not have time to look until tonight12:01
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: so you want to keep your account?12:02
DocScrutinizeris there a way to open Web form cmdline? on a given URL?12:04
rcgwell.. using a  mouse area in the delegate does the trick:    thanks frals for the hint :)12:05
DocScrutinizer(I know there is, as there are appstarter bookmarks - just hopend for somebody knows the exact incantation)12:06
djszapieh....there are "hidden" packages inside the nokia-binaries link, like this: This is funky since the that directory is not browsable by default, so you can easily waste hours to get the right dependencies ...12:06
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djszapiwhy the hell is libarchive binary ?12:14
djszapiseems, Nokia tend to not put every generated packages onto the website (like in case of xz-utils, liblzma-dev is missing) meaning that the community needs to duplicate the effort and drop that package usage.12:15
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lardmanlcuk: did you ping me?12:24
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lardmanmorning all12:25
RST38hmoo lardman12:25
lardmanhey RST38h12:25
RST38hSo, all action basically moved from #maemo here?12:25
lcuklardman, last night I did12:28
lcukcannot remember what I wanted now though12:28
lardmanlcuk: sorry, no internet at home yet (still!)12:28
djszapilardman: use your N950 with mobile internet :)12:28
lardmanRST38h: well related to N950, yep12:28
djszapiand hotspot mode :)12:28
lardmandjszapi: I only get 2G, am out in the sticks12:28
lardmanThere is a sum total of one wifi ap that I can detect in the village :D12:29
lardmanI'm therefore hoping that dual band will work fine with my n router12:30
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: (nokia tend not to put) now that's really bad, and I think this *must* change12:32
djszapiDocScrutinizer: the SDK team leader told me  that they do not publish debian packages which comes from xz-utils or any other package which is not a dependency inside the SDK.12:33
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: for me the general way Nokia acts clearly tells "they" don't really want "us"12:33
djszapibut it is no go in my not that humble opinion :)12:33
* RST38h wonders if anyone in the world still knows what Nokia "wants" and where it is going12:34
RST38hFor SURE, I mean12:34
djszapiso to translate it this way: who cares about the community packages ? The point is that we provide a everything for our SDK, that is. Nothing else matters.12:35
djszapinot sure what made them making libarchive as binary. They most likely got it from debian anyway :D12:36
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DocScrutinizerI'm almost tempted to have a long talk with my friend Harald Welte, what can be done12:39
DocScrutinizere.g I don't think aegis and GPLv3 can coexist12:41
Stskeepsthere's no gplv3 in the image12:42
DocScrutinizerthat was sth to get checked then12:42
DocScrutinizercommunity is very forgiving as long as the players are showing good will12:42
DocScrutinizerI don't think Nokia actually qualifies for tagging them "showing good will"12:43
DocScrutinizernobody really is going to complain about blobs to protect IP - like GFX or GPS drivers, whatnot12:46
DocScrutinizerbut the general way Nokia acts seems way beyond that, hijacking linux and usurping to own it12:47
djszapiCannot we add this link in some format to our sources.list file ?
djszapithat would probably solve the "hidden" binary packages issue if you cannot find them on the webinterface.12:47
djszapiIt is not a solution for the insane truncation though.12:48
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Mekhmm, anyone know if any of is already possible with qml? or are those more libmeegotouch only widgets...12:52
DocScrutinizerlanded! good by spaceshuttle12:58
fralsdjszapi: come on, that waas not the reply you got internally regarding the unpublished packages12:59
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fralsand since it seemed some bug plagued the publishing of the packages initially (which is why some sources were visible on google cache etc) i guess they disabled browsing nokia-binaries over http, should be fine to get them through apt in sb13:03
DocScrutinizerfrals: then damn document that, nokia!13:05
djszapifrals: that was the answer I got from the SDK team leader, we can ask13:07
DocScrutinizerfrals: quoting-> "we've been told aegis can get disabled completely"13:07
djszapifragl: it has nothing to do with google cache13:07
frals" djszapi> seems, Nokia tend to not put every generated packages onto the website"13:08
djszapi* frals, sorry13:08
DocScrutinizerfrals: It's not enough *somebody* can disable it, it's mandatory WE (the community developers) are empowered and told how to disable it13:08
fralsdjszapi: what was the last line from SDK team lead in the last email regarding that?13:08
djszapifrals: we had a private chat13:09
fralsDocScrutinizer: this has nothing to do with aegis afaik13:09
DocScrutinizersure, I know13:09
fralsdjszapi: ok, i went on the mailing list info which stated that13:09
djszapifrals: and the team lead did not answer in email...13:09
DocScrutinizerit's just in line wrt mindset and general "do no evil" policy13:09
fralsisnt souyma the right person any more?13:09
djszapiwell, I have been told Lengyel Marcell13:09
djszapiHence I asked him.13:10
fralsDocScrutinizer: i fully agree that aegis should be nuked from orbit, i guess djszapi can help with that ;)13:10
fralsah, maybe soumya is below him13:10
djszapifrals: No, I cannot.13:10
DocScrutinizern he can't13:10
djszapifrals. I did not make decisions about the architecture, I was just a code monkey :)13:10
Damion3can't you load a kernel module via an aegis signed .deb install which can then do whatever you like in kernel space including turning aegis off?13:10
fralsdjszapi: code monkeys know how to break the stuff they code, surely? ;-)13:10
djszapisince there is an aegis validator13:10
djszapiDamion3 ^13:10
Damion3baked in to the kernel module loading stuff?13:11
djszapifrals: but who is the SDK team leader then ? I am confused13:11
djszapiI talked to Lengyel Marcell....13:11
fralsdjszapi: i assume its marcell if that was what souyma told you :)13:11
djszapiyeah, so I said the truth then :D13:11
fralsi thought it was her but seems i was wrong, i went on what souyma said13:11
DocScrutinizerfrals: this is a clean implemetation of a security framework (TC) that has been developed and pentested for 10 some years13:12
DocScrutinizerit's probably stable13:12
djszapifrals: she/he could not help, just Marcell13:12
fralsdjszapi: ok, i was wrong then :)13:12
Damion3if you're able to get dpkg to inject the correct checksums for your new .deb can't that include kernel modules to be loaded ?13:13
DocScrutinizerfrals: there *might* be holes in config, but no vulnerabilities that developers of aegis would know about13:13
djszapiDamion3: it is not about dpkg and dpkg.real13:13
djszapiit is about the kernel validation module which works from the boot process...13:14
DocScrutinizerfrals: e.g you might find a binary that allows privilege escalation as it has a poorly designed manifest13:14
DocScrutinizerfrals: but there's definitely no joshua code in aegis13:14
Damion3djszapi: the boot loader only lets you boot correctly signed kernels?  and there is a fixed list of allowed modules that can be loaded?13:15
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DocScrutinizerDamion3: check how e.g GPG works13:16
fralsits a shame the echo 0 > /etc/aegis/enable doesnt work on production devices, that would be neat :(13:16
DocScrutinizerDamion3: this gives you a bit of an idea how security frameworks work13:17
fluxfrals, indeed13:17
DocScrutinizerjust TC aka aegis aka MSSF does to files and binaries what GPG does to mails13:17
djszapifrals: no13:18
djszapithat would not really be neat at all13:18
djszapithat would be the worst ever from user point of view.13:18
Damion3DocScrutinizer: the signing, yeah, with essentially impossible to create a hash collision even with months of trying to generate a binary with matching hash13:18
djszapiDo not forget, Nokia wanted to make a user, customer device, not for us, developers.13:19
Damion3due to factoring primes or something?13:19
fralsdjszapi: im aware, but from my pov as a developer it would make it so much faster to develop ;)13:19
DocScrutinizerDamion3: it's the same crypto stuff used, yes13:19
Damion3but it's possible for joikuspot to create a wifi hotspot binary and kernel module, sign it and install it to a phone.  When I run it the kernel modprobes their nat kludge in and voila the kernel is running their module.  I don't see how somebody else can't just create a .deb and sign it.13:21
Damion3does everything have to go via nokia?13:21
DocScrutinizerDamion3: basically yes, though nokia can issue signed root certs for other developers, like you are signing a pubkey of another person you know, in GPG keyring13:23
DocScrutinizerthen this 3rd party can use this signed root cert to sign their stuff, with the permissions granted to root cert by Nokia13:23
Damion3that'll explain why one of the partitions of the built in block device mentions certificates when you flash it13:23
Damion3DocScrutinizer: that's give quite some trust to joikuspot13:24
Damion3so I can click on any .deb via http and that gets autosigned by some aegis thing on the phone at install time13:25
Damion3but that can only run as user, no root, no kernel modules unless signed by nokia?13:25
Damion3s/nokia/nokia or somebody with a signed root cert/13:26
infobotDamion3 meant: but that can only run as user, no root, no kernel modules unless signed by nokia or somebody with a signed root cert?13:26
DocScrutinizerDamion3: MSSF is really complex, I don't got it to wrap my head around it completely. I'm aware though of the basic design principles and mode of operation of TC13:27
DocScrutinizerfor more read:13:27
infoboti guess aegis is , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or
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djszapiDamion3: you cannot load your own module...13:28
djszapijust in open mode with own kernel..13:28
djszapinot even from ovistore, just from Nokia13:29
Damion3djszapi: What about run stuff as root, mount something or use chroot?13:29
djszapiDamion3: you do not know how aegis works13:29
djszapiit is not about root or non root anymore, it is about credentials.13:29
DocScrutinizerDamion3: also
Damion3yeah I noticed root not being able to kill user processes13:30
Teo`the main menu disappearing icons on rotation seems to be not random, I'd guess it might be a quite silly issue13:30
Teo`is that part proprietary or Free?13:30
Damion3so I don't mean run as root sorry scratch that.  I do however want to echo something in to /proc and do mounting and chroot13:30
djszapiDamion3: third time, you cannot load not Nokia modules in non-open mode with own kernel :D13:31
Damion3I didn't mention loading kernel modules13:31
Damion3well i did earlier13:31
djszapioh you asked different thing..13:31
Damion3sorry yes13:31
Damion3qemu+wine needs misc binfmt enabled and chroot13:32
djszapiforget root as "superuser". It is not that term in this context. It is a user device, not sysadmin13:32
Damion3so chmod user /proc/sys/binfmt && echo "x86:elf" >/proc/sys/binfmt might work as a user13:32
Damion3(those aren't the exact strings)13:33
djszapiagain, it is credential based...13:33
djszapinot user/root/whatever related.13:33
Damion3do how do I find it user or any user on the phone, has the correct credentials to do stuff like that ?13:34
Damion3ahh :)13:34
Damion3Current mode: normal13:36
Damion3I'll need to find the crednetials13:37
Damion3hmm       <credential name="CAP::chown" />13:37
Damion3so "accli -t CAP::chown && echo yes"13:41
Damion3means "user" doesn't have the chown capability13:41
Damion3oddly I seem to be able to chown any file anywhere to any user13:41
fluxdamion3, you may need to have another token for the other user to actually be able to do it13:42
fluxdamion3, oh, actually I read that wrong :-)13:42
fluxdamion3, so you are 'user' or 'root'? as user you can chown anything as you like?-o13:43
Damion3open shell, sat at busybox's ash shell in /home/user13:43
Damion3id returns user13:43
Damion3accli -t CAP::chown sets $? to 113:43
Damion3touch blah && chown root blah13:43
fluxfun :)13:43
Damion3oh, now it doesn't13:44
DocScrutinizerbeware, see
Damion3that worked before :)13:44
DocScrutinizeraegis can be a bitch with superpowers13:45
Teo`now, this might be a frivolous question, but... is there a way to change the background image of the home screen?13:45
Teo`it's so black!13:45
djszapiDamion3: you should learn how to use accli13:45
DocScrutinizerTeo`: this is the right dresscode for FOSS funeral party13:45
Damion3djszapi: okay, I have only just learnt about it :)  no man page on the phone13:46
Teo`DocScrutinizer: for a moment there, I LOL'd then I realized you might be right :(13:46
Damion3the help says -t tests for capabilities13:46
Teo`DocScrutinizer: you think they disabled it on purpose because it's a dev device?13:46
DocScrutinizerTeo`: yeah, my jokes often are poisoned13:46
Damion3which it seems to do.  I don't know why chown worked before.  That must have been the previous firmware13:46
DocScrutinizerTeo`: this is a devel device for N9. N9 has AMOLED which eats power like my kids eat candy, on mostly white screens13:47
Damion3ahhh and accli -I in develsh returns a massively increased list with multiple capabilities13:47
Teo`I sure hope they don't leave it just black and unchangeable13:48
DocScrutinizerI don't think theming is locked down anyway13:48
djszapiDamion3: you can also check the restok.conf out, if you do not like accli13:49
djszapithere are more ways of doing things ;)13:49
DocScrutinizeryou probably just have to wait for OVI "Coming soon..." to download other themens X-P13:49
DocScrutinizerrestok ?? o.O13:50
Damion3what I want to know is, is there a capability for being able to place a value in a special kernel mounted binfmt_misc directory in /proc so I can point it at an installed binary, so executing x86 binaries works.13:50
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DocScrutinizerdjszapi: what makes aegis brick the device? how does it work?13:51
Damion3wow, just typing this I realise that it interferes directly with the fundamental stuff like being able to execute signed binaries.13:51
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djszapiDamion3: you can do, not sure I would do that, but it is technically possible.13:52
DocScrutinizerDamion3: and the links therein are helpful with aegis13:53
Damion3I guess if qemu-user-i386-static was installed signed to be able to execute then it should be happy itself being able to run other stuff13:54
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: (brick) and especially *why* does it work that way. Where in aegis docs and whitepapers it says aegis will kill the system under certain conditions?13:54
DocScrutinizerI'm missing the rationale behind this behaviour of aegis13:55
djszapiDocScrutinizer: documentation is not my responsibility, SDK team :)13:55
DocScrutinizersure sure, just thought you might know a few good pointers or hearsay13:56
cpscottianyone knows how qtcAddDeployment works? or at least where's the doc (or source). The whole thing (qt creator's deployment.pri) looks like a baad&ugly workaround :/13:56
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DocScrutinizerdjszapi: the general TC concept defines a state change of system from trusted (aka "normal") to tainted (aka "open") shall terminate all processes that requested a secure system, and clean out those processes' mamory content so no passwords or key or whatever can get compromised. A reboot would suffice for that, why does Aegis kill the system so you have to reflash?13:59
DocScrutinizerthis feels utterly insane14:01
DocScrutinizerand an evil policy implemented by Nokia deliberately without any rationale from system PoV14:02
DocScrutinizerunless somebody provides a sound rationale for this behaviour14:03
Damion3the links in the post you mention don't work for me so I'm assuming from what you're saying that those commands locked up the device and then it wouldn't boot.14:03
DocScrutinizerthe links in ?14:03
Damion3was bash placed as /bin/sh ?  Because that would obviously brick it :)14:04
DocScrutinizerno, it for sure wasn't14:04
Damion3yes, 1st links says "The page isn't redirecting properly"14:04
DocScrutinizerthis is a bug in OVI authentication14:04
Damion32nd links says "Some Error" from
Damion33rd is the bash binary they were trying to setuid14:04
Damion3it's not that important I'm just trying to see what you're saying.  Are you saying it seems like Nokia are pusnishing attempts to created a setuid shell by making the device not boot rather than just saying not and causing a reboot to undo relaxed mode ?14:05
DocScrutinizeryeah is borked once again14:05
Damion3There is a phrase "never atribute to malice, what can equally be attributed to incompetence".  A bit harsh, but I suspect the bricking wasn't planned14:06
DocScrutinizerDamion3: try to go to http://share.ovi.com14:07
Damion3but then I don't get to see what those linked contained.  maybe a message from nokia saying "we spot you're naught now reflash"14:07
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DocScrutinizerDamion3: then from there go to
DocScrutinizermight work14:07
Damion3would this happen with any extra binary added in to /bin ?14:08
DocScrutinizerI gather you got a nokia account as well, ad the ovi/nokia SSO has issues with redirecting for "complex" URLs14:08
Damion3DocScrutinizer: yeah I'm using a different browser now.  Multi login sso is hard :)14:09
Damion3I should know, Google are still trying to get it right14:09
DocScrutinizerDamion3: (any binary) It seems an issue particular to that bash binary/.deb, but I don't know what aegis-exec -a CAP::setgid -a CAP::setuid <random-binary> will do - probably the result of bricking device will be similar14:10
Damion3perhaps they dont' want any binary other than ones they approve of to be set with the setuid capability14:11
Damion3although that doesn't make much sense if superuser doesn't mean anything anymore14:11
Damion3so MSSF and aegis are different again to SElinux and none of these are the same as the filesystem specific setcap capabilities like granting binaries the ability to listen on ports <1024 and similar.14:12
Damion3unix used to be so simple :)14:13
Damion3ahha sys_chroot is in restok.conf14:14
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Damion3presumably this config is also signed and so can't be edited ;)  People (hopefully) much smarter than me have already gone over all of these obvious stuff14:16
Damion3of the 6 projects I'm working on.  4 of them do some quite nasty kernel/module interaction and are going to be a problem.  And one of the other two might be awkward depending on what I can send over bluetooth.14:17
Damion3it means I can't tinker.  I need to do it properly and get Nokia to approve :(14:17
Damion3well except I can tinker because the phone google seem to have can be put in open mode :-p14:18
Damion3but it's not useful for others wasn't to try stuff out with me.14:18
MohammadAGtwo weeks in New Order :/14:19
StskeepsMohammadAG: i had like 1214:19
MohammadAGStskeeps, so I beat your record, yay(?)14:20
griGah, startup performance of my app sucks even though I use MDeclarativeCache booster things :( Also experiencing funny flickering effects on device :(14:26
DocScrutinizerDamion3: hmm, I'm not sure this post looks *really* better now, but anyway...14:27
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Damion3btw thanks that thread is like reading my own discoveries on the device I've been lent (until my dev one arrives).  So I don't have any docs whatsoever with the one I have and it's apparently special in that I can put it in open mode.15:09
djszapiDamion3: special device for open mode ?15:13
kimjumost likely a internal prototype with r&d software.15:14
djszapiopen mode has nothing to deal with specific device. It should work on both.15:14
Damion3it's whatever nokia sent to google15:14
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kimjubtw, some info and examples about aegis: and
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djszapikimju: there were official examples FYI15:23
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djszapiI am not sure it is the most up to date, we wrote quite a while ago15:26
kimjuand then there is the harmattan security guide at
grimy program can have a portrait and landscape statusbar at the same time! :( anyone has an idea?15:27
djszapigri: I experienced the same yesterday :)15:28
djszapikimju: actually that blog is a bit funky15:29
griI'd bet if it was only meegotouch without qml, everything would be fine (like all the other account-ui plugins)15:29
xerxes2if i want to port pychess (gtk based) to harmattan what do i use?15:29
djszapior well, it is good enough, but it misses the Qt layer on the top of the security which can make the life easier as well15:30
spenaphas anyone managed to use the share interface (libshare-ui)?15:30
achipaspenap: shoot15:31
kimjudjszapi, anyway, I found it interesting to read as it was written from slightly different point of view than the official documents15:32
spenapachipa, that was the question. I installed and used it trying to follow this example:
spenapbut it said "wrong interface" and nothing showed up15:32
djszapikimju: from an official person :D15:32
kimjumore like an tutorial than a reference..15:33
achipaspenap: what's your SHAREUI_DBUS_SERVICE ?15:33
achipaspenap: scratch that, I would just use ShareUiInterface* interface = new ShareUiInterface();15:34
achipaand it should go to the right place15:34
spenaphe, there's no such constructor, achipa15:34
spenapor at least15:35
spenapthat's what I got15:35
spenapif you check libshare-ui-dev15:35
spenapthe ShareUI/shareinterface.h (or something like that, I'm writing it from memory)15:35
spenaponly has an explicit constructor requiring all the args15:35
spenapI was asking looking for some success stories :), I tried this two days ago, so cannot check the exact errors at the moment15:36
djszapikimju: I think the interesting bit is also that, it has been published a while ago. I thought these things are secret, mainly that time back.15:36
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achipaspenap: worksforme ?15:40
achipa(with that exact constructor)15:40
DocScrutinizerkimju: how does apply to harmattan?15:41
djszapimost part (99%) is irrelevant to Harmattan.15:43
DocScrutinizerI mean it's about netbook, RPM and all that15:43
DocScrutinizerdjszapi: thought as much15:45
* DocScrutinizer closes browser window without creating a bookmark for it15:45
kimjuthere is some generic description of the framework. the examples are of cource not directly applicable15:46
DocScrutinizer>> Minimal changes to the current model (enforcement phase) Good level of flexibility and granularity, easy to understand concept (KISS)<<  MUHAHAHA *cough*15:48
djszapikimju: I do not see any generic point between meego and the maemo security model nowadays. It was a try in the beginning to make an upstream implementation of aegis with smack, but they radically went far away from each other. I am not sure you should read so old articles in the mobile industry, might be a bit oudated :)15:52
spenapouch, achipa15:52
spenapHARMATTAN_X86 target and installing libshare-ui-dev?15:53
DocScrutinizer/me wonders what >> source with higher trust level SW source trust is based on the source Quality Assurance level << means in reality15:56
* DocScrutinizer wonders what >> SW source trust is based on the source Quality Assurance level << means in reality15:56
* DocScrutinizer wonders what's the email of the "source Quality Assurance" evaluation department in Nokia15:58
fralsin practice i guess it means something like trusted level: on device >> ovi >> cobs apps?15:58
achipaspenap: actually, just head-on from qtcreator and the harmattan platform api target15:58
spenapachipa, ShareUiInterface(const QString &service, const QString &path, const QDBusConnection &connection, QObject *parent = 0); <- this is what /usr/include/ShareUI/shareuiinterface.h reads15:59
DocScrutinizerfrals: the question was "who is assigning >trust levels< to sources?"15:59
achipaspenap: didn't check - it worked for me so never bothered to look into the header15:59
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spenapachipa, thanks anyway. I'll go back to that later and see what I get.16:01
achipaspenap: there was one caveat,  to HAVE TO SET THE MIMETYPE, otherwise it falls flat on it's face16:02
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DocScrutinizeranyway it seems resonable to postpone *any* bugreports against aegis until N9 got mass deployed and you also found a proper exploit for the bug :-) (preferably an exploit that can't get defeated by deploying an aegis-update)16:10
Damion3if these security measures mean movie studios and game developers relax and trust the device I see this as a good thing.  Same for governments wanting an ultra secure in-the-field device to replace the crackberry16:12
DocScrutinizergovernments are more interested in an immutable backdoor in Skype16:13
DocScrutinizerwhich for sure is enforcable via aegis16:13
Damion3I still don't care :) *la la la* (blocks eyes and ears)16:13
DocScrutinizeralso makes sure not everybody could use that backdoor16:13
Damion3if it means they like the device and it's popular then good16:14
Damion3you don't want it to be popular?16:14
DocScrutinizerplease read16:14
Damion3Of course for me, it just so happens I like to and am involved in faffing about with quite low level kernel-module-esque stuff which it gets in the way of :)16:14
infobot[aegis] , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or
DocScrutinizeresp 2nd link16:15
Damion3oh dear16:15
Damion3sandal wearing GNU/debian fans rant like this16:15
Damion3"They believe that it may cause consumers to lose anonymity in their online interactions" - interesting.  Might be true.  I STILL don't care :)16:16
DocScrutinizerI'm not allowed to write what I'd like to answer16:16
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Damion3also I'd like a device to be trusted by movie studios.  That doesn't mean they should trust it, as it could be just as crackable by the wrong types of people.  I don'tcare how naïve movie studioes are I just want them to trust the device and thus publish for it.  In the hope it makes the device do well and be popular enough to succeed.16:18
RST38hLet us put it this way:16:19
RST38hIf the studios do not trust my device, do not publish for it, or force me to jump through incredible loops to get content, I will go and torrent the same content.16:19
DocScrutinizerok I found an answer that doesn't sound too rude: please consider buying a Mediaplayer device, or a winP7 or Android based one instead16:19
Damion3aegis seems like a genuine effort to succeed in its goal, which is unneccessary when all you need to do is convince less technical types that the security measures in place are enough.16:19
fluxdamion3, well, let them put their secret keys into some secure place. but let us have a mode where we don't need those keys, but do everything else.16:20
fluxI'm pretty sure the bootloader is quite solid anyway. it was for n900 already, wasn't it?16:20
fluxiow there is a secret place somewhere.16:20
Damion3flux: yes.16:20
* RST38h yawns: this Aegis stuff is not new, Damion3. Other prople and companies have tried before. They have all failed.16:20
RST38hThere are clear technical reasons WHY they failed16:20
fluxxbox360 is not cracked yet, is it?16:20
RST38hflux: Cracked, uses XTEA16:20
Damion3PS3 took about 4 years16:21
RST38hHad to physicall hack it though16:21
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RST38hLet me see... SD cards have "secure" features that nobody uses. Hard drives have "secure" areas that nobody uses.16:22
Damion3I think we're sort of agreeing.  What was needed was some vague handwavey effort which claimed to be secure to enable the publishers (who's business model is wrong anyway, we agree on that) to trust it.  However some people are working (too hard) on making their wishes realised.16:22
DocScrutinizer>>You might think you can find out what nasty things a treacherous-computing application does, study how painful they are, and decide whether to accept them. Even if you can find this out, it would be foolish to accept the deal, but you can't even expect the deal to stand still. Once you come to depend on using the program, you are hooked and they know it; then they can change the deal. Some applications will automatically download16:22
DocScrutinizerupgrades that will do something different—and they won't give you a choice about whether to upgrade.<<16:22
RST38hBluRay/DVD go to great lengths to "protect" their content, both have been hacked, + people are using torrents anyway16:23
fluxrst38h, well, physically hacking is a valid way, but I guess we're not talking about that here16:23
RST38hFreaking Symbian Foundation pretty much killed most Symbian development by introducing Aegis-like model16:23
fluxI'm not sure how it would affect pay-per-view applications, if someone can retrieve the keys16:23
flux(or if it would affect)16:24
RST38hHow many *more* hardware security blunders do you need? :)16:24
fluxrst38h, everybody's doing it, so it's a race of not being the worst I guess :)16:24
RST38hflux: Actually, no16:24
RST38hflux: Apple is not doing it. Instead, they persuaded publishers to strip DRM16:24
razvanpetruno Symbian was much worse16:25
RST38hflux: And use lower prices to push pirates out of the picture16:25
razvanpetruyou pretty much had to have a publisher ID (200$/year) to publish apps16:25
fluxrst38h, well, that simplifies the software & managemnt a lot, not to mention UX :)16:25
fluxUX is such a hot word. can't they use that to eradicate this silliness?16:25
DocScrutinizerRST38h: actually hoping for hackers to crack security is an elitist thinking only hackers can afford. Normal users are pretty much on peril of us hackers counteracting security measures and that's a bad thing to start with.16:31
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Damion3I don't understabd "on peril of us hackers"16:32
Damion3assume english isn't my 1st language16:32
Damion3(it is, I'm just lame ;))16:32
DocScrutinizer~dict peril16:33
infobotDictionary 'peril' (2 of 9): \Per"il\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Periled}or {Perilled}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Periling} or {Perilling}.] To expose to danger; to hazard; to risk; as, to peril one's life. [1913 Webster] ;; put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position .16:33
fiferboyI really need to learn the dict protocol for my application16:33
fiferboyMaybe I could just pipe IRC output to it :)16:33
DocScrutinizerprobably english isn't my premium language (I prefer assembler)16:33
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DocScrutinizers/peril/in a dependent state /16:34
lardmanmissing an em- ?16:34
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lardmanthis is the problem with using an American dictionary of course ;)16:35
lardmanafternoon qgil_16:35
DocScrutinizerqgil_: hi!16:35
Damion3so to picka synonym: users are on danger of us hackers16:36
Damion3I know what peril means, I meant the sentense didn't scan16:36
qgil_hi there, I didn't know there was a #harmattan channel16:36
Damion3and yes I used to say z80 asm was my 1st language :)16:36
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lardmanqgil_: well harmattan talk was sort of taking over the #maemo channel16:37
DocScrutinizerDamion3: I know what you meant, it seems though you want to go on a meaning-of-words level though for this discussion, and I won't join in16:37
qgil_lardman: not complaining16:37
qgil_btw any Chess lovers willing to practice some Qt & Quick skills for a MeeGo mobile app focusing on handset?16:37
Damion3I'mn not tolling I didn't scan what your sentense meant.  Unless it was "users are in a situation where they have to rely on hackers to crack a security mechanism in order to get a useful device, which is a bad situation to start in"16:38
DocScrutinizerso evidently you got the meaning of what I said16:38
Damion3okay then sorry16:39
lardmanqgil_: sounds like we need a wiki page somewhere with app suggestions?16:39
Damion3it really didn't scan well16:39
DocScrutinizerqgil_: seems like we'd love a word from you which should be the common community repo to throw in *all* the little tools we happen to build16:40
Damion3I'd have s/peril of us/on a perilous situation of having to wait for us/16:41
Damion3I'll stop, I did evidently grok it16:41
DocScrutinizerqgil_: for now google seems our best friend to find if somebody else built midnight commander for harmattan16:41
qgil_lardman: we are not looking for an app, we are looking for developers to join
qgil_DocScrutinizer: do you mind having this discussion at ?16:42
qgil_IRC is too volatile for my taste16:42
lardmanqgil_: ah my mistake, but again, a page listing things that people would like ported (preferably requests from active devs in the project) might still be useful16:42
DocScrutinizersure, no problem16:42
qgil_especially when the answers rely in more than one person16:43
qgil_lardman: yes, and actually I believe someone created such page already16:43
lcuklardman, meego has the ITP (Intent to port) page:
DocScrutinizerqgil_: from a cursory read this thread is about a repo similar to maemo-extras. What we discussed here yesterday was a mere developer dump repo similar to extras-devel_just_'worse', that's not meant for end users16:48
rm_youmorning qgil_!16:48
* rm_you runs off to work16:48
qgil_DocScrutinizer: still, this discussion is relevant there16:49
DocScrutinizerqgil_: ...where we 250 devels would be well aware of all the risk this introduces16:49
DocScrutinizerqgil_: ok, will continue to read more closely. I hope though the ones participating in yesterday's discussion will also look there and contribute what they think16:50
qgil_the current workflow is supposed to be all around Community OBS: devel = your home repo, testing is that common repo where packages clash together and stable is where only the end-user ready stuff lands16:50
qgil_also note that these decisions are more on the side of the Harmattan OSS community developers than on the opinions of a Nokia employee that doesn't have to code on any app (yet)16:51
qgil_in other words, don't expect me to give the ultimate answer16:51
DocScrutinizerqgil_: I'm really the noob in this discussion, I'm just interested in adding a repo (however to establish that) and then get mc by doing apt-get install mc, without having to mess with google to find it's been djszapi who built it and it's in *his* private repo16:52
qgil_DocScrutinizer: as for toay there is noob ready answer to your question, but you are invited to join the discussion, sharing your problems and proposing solutions16:53
qgil_(gosh, I thought my % of IRC typos would improve after the holidays)16:53
qgil_X-Fade (Niels Breet) is the guys coordinating all this setup16:55
qgil_I see he is not even on this channel, but he is following that forum discussion16:55
DocScrutinizerqgil_: thanks a lot, so it's x-fade then16:56
lardmanlcuk: That's not quite the same though16:56
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khertan1import 1.1 is not installed ... oups17:00
khertan1is it available for qtcreator ?17:00
qgil_DocScrutinizer: also not that this is not a Harmattan exclusive discussion, since this problem is common to any MeeGo OSS community developers17:00
khertan1oups ... wrong channel, anyway ... hello everyone :)17:02
DocScrutinizerhmm, for a repo providing .deb for harmattan it seems to be, nevertheless - while the general problem for sure is common to whole FOSS community17:02
mgedminbut but but Harmattan packages aren't installable on Meego devices and vice versa17:02
mgedminam I mistaken?17:02
DocScrutinizerhi khertan117:03
lcukmgedmin, depends how they are written17:03
mgedminmy question was more about packagin17:04
lcuksome developers (like venemo) are creating real cross platform versions17:04
RST38h"Nokia posts massive loss, blames 'ambiguity'" (C)TheRegister17:04
mgedmincan I install a meego .rpm package on a n950?17:04
lcukyes, his puzzle-master app is installable on pretty much every OS he has worked with17:04
khertan1mgedmin: not currently ... maybe someone will port alien tool :)17:04
DocScrutinizerlcuk: but the harmattan developer toolbox repo is exactly *not* supposed to be cross-platform17:05
lcukbut qt is17:05
* RST38h innocously asks why not create harmattan-specific repo at maemo.org17:05
DocScrutinizerso what?17:05
khertan1and the dev toolbox ... is mostly Qt :)17:05
DocScrutinizerI once more missed a parallel thread? :-D17:06
khertan1RST38h: lost obs capability17:06
RST38hkhertan: I can build with local OBS17:06
DocScrutinizerkhertan1: I'd expect it to be mostly commandline anyway17:06
khertan1someone ... don't remember who was working on how to build package for both system at the same time : debian style and rpm one17:06
Stskeepskhertan1: that's entirely possible17:06
RST38hkhertan: + I am sure someone can hack together a scrpipt that would send built packages from the community OBS into the repo17:06
khertan1Stskeeps: yep of course ... obs can do both, i was talking about using maemo current architecture17:07
khertan1RST38h: oh ... yes also ... it s an other solution17:07
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* khertan1 like more and more qtsdk ... just need python support ... need to look at qtcreator documentation to made plugin.17:08
DocScrutinizerkhertan1: when I'm looking for midnight commander I don't give a f* about if it's cross-platform or Qt, I just want to save compiling it myself and rather use the binary djszapi built 2 days ago17:08
khertan1DocScrutinizer and where he build them ?17:09
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khertan1cobs ?17:09
DocScrutinizerassuming I trust in djszapi not doing anything that makes my house get nuked when I start that binary17:09
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i installed stuff by just clicking deb in browser17:09
khertan1DocScrutinizer: installed git by downloading deb on the c-obs rzr home17:10
* mgedmin sees "Ogg Vorbis" among the supported audio formats at and feels happy and fuzzy17:10
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: yes, but that'S exactly the point, WHERE to will you browse with your browser to click on a .deb17:10
khertan1DocScrutinizer community obs17:10
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: probably17:10
Stskeepsor djszapi:/17:10
DocScrutinizerthis SUCKS17:10
khertan1DocScrutinizer: why ?17:11
khertan1there is a search feature17:11
khertan1works well17:11
DocScrutinizer>>I'm just interested in adding a repo (however to establish that) and then get mc by doing apt-get install mc, without having to mess with google to find it's been djszapi who built it and it's in *his* private repo17:11
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: well that's what is supposed to solve..17:11
DocScrutinizerok, hope it eventually will establish this17:12
khertan1DocScrutinizer: did you know the plateform and his architecture is still in devel and this is the purpose of n950 ? :)17:12
DocScrutinizerthough - as mentioned above - [2011-07-21 15:48:31] <DocScrutinizer> qgil_: from a cursory read this thread is about a repo similar to maemo-extras. What we discussed here yesterday was a mere developer dump repo similar to extras-devel_just_'worse', that's not meant for end users17:13
DocScrutinizerkhertan1: are you trolling?17:13
qgil_DocScrutinizer: this extras-devel_just_'worse' would be part of the infra and QA process to publish OSS community apps for end users so yes, it is relevent - trust me  :)=17:14
kimjuI still suggest (as I did yesterday) that while waiting for the apps and apps-testing repos to get created and working, you just create a home:user:harmattan-testing-temp and collaborate there. when the official things get working, migrate there.17:15
Stskeepsit's really easy(TM)17:15
khertan1DocScrutinizer no, i just suggest to not be angry or too much aggressiv about community repository not ready17:15
Stskeeps(what kimju suggests)17:15
DocScrutinizerkhertan1: I'm all happy and relaxed17:16
DocScrutinizerkhertan1: just trying to scratch an itch probably a lot of devels face17:16
qgil_khertan1: fwiw I didn't perceive any anger or aggressivity from DocScrutinizer17:16
DocScrutinizerright NOW I have to add17:16
khertan1qgil_: yep i probably not choose the right word ... sorry :)17:16
smokusuggestion. see - we could have the same search engine for C-OBS17:17
DocScrutinizersmoku: search engine sounds awesome17:17
khertan1DocScrutinizer sorry i didn't use the right words17:17
qgil_guys, all this discussio is really #meego relevant and there you have X-Fade, lbt and others working with the OBS on a daily basis17:17
khertan1smoku: <<< it s the same type of search, isn't it ?17:18
DocScrutinizerok, I'm handing the microphone to whoever feels more competent about this topic. As mentioned above I'm the noob here about repo topics17:18
smokukhertan: compare to
kimjuback to technical things. could someone with fairly clean device run 'dpkg -l > foo' and pastebin the results? I've already littered mine with local versions of packages, would like to have something to compare against17:19
smokunotice 1-Click installer links17:19
khertan1smoku: yeah, indeed the result presentation is better17:19
qgil_just making sure you are aware of
DocScrutinizerprobably that person with higher competence would be kimju then17:20
qgil_DocScrutinizer: do me a favor and write a post with your concerns at that forum thread I posted above - thanks!17:21
* lbt hopes the forum/email happens soon ... I'd love to join in having done more than a little work on repos etc,,,,17:22
kimjuDocScrutinizer, if you want I can walk you through setting such repo and how to push / accept things there. it's easy, the hard part would be deciding what to accept there.17:23
khertan1Does someone here notice slow ssh on rm-680 ?17:24
Stskeepskhertan1: think it's terminal artifact17:24
khertan1the one on the device ?17:24
khertan1or the client i use to connect to it ?17:25
lbtDocScrutinizer: did you read the 'Surrounds' post I made a while back?17:25
khertan1did you know any tips to improve this ?17:25
rm_workoh, for a "repository package search" there is always PackMan17:25
rm_worki could look at modifying it maybe17:26
lbtkimju: you too ?17:26
rm_workto look at Harmattan repos17:26
kimjukhertan1, is the opening of connection slow or the connection after that?17:26
kimjulbt, ?17:26
khertan1kimju: both ... many connection refuse until one works17:26
kimjuis your network ok?17:26
khertan1it s happen on 2 different network17:27
lbtkimju: search the wiki for Apps and Surrounds... I'm about to reboot :)17:27
khertan1the one at work i could not be sure, but the one at home have no problem17:27
rm_workDocScrutinizer: would updating Packrat to look at Harmattan user repos help you?17:28
rm_workDocScrutinizer: I think I could do that fairly easily17:28
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lcukkhertan1, over my wifi connecting via ssh is faster than connecting to other machines17:28
khertan1kimju: same tips as meego ce on n900 ... pinging continuously seems to fix the problem17:28
DocScrutinizerrm_work: if it omplements a one-step way to install "things" from a number of different authors, then yes17:29
rm_workDocScrutinizer: well, look at it17:29
DocScrutinizernot exactly apt-get install, but maybe even nicer17:30
rm_workit generates .install files17:30
rm_worki don't know if those work in Harmattan17:30
rm_workdo they?17:30
DocScrutinizerthey *should* afaik17:30
rm_workok i will make a clone of this and see if i can make it look at harmattan17:30
khertan1kimju: did you got your package list ?17:31
rm_worki just need a list of repositories17:31
kimjukhertan1, not yet17:31
rm_workwhere was the user repo list?17:31
DocScrutinizerkimju: there's your technical solution :-D17:31
Stskeepsguys, for good measure, making a extras-devel of sorts is easy. make a OBS project, then have people click "submit package" on their package, find your repo name, write a reason and it shows up under "my requests" for repo maintainer17:31
khertan1kimju: i got pastbin error :)17:31
Stskeepsyou can add maintainers under 'users' in the project17:31
lbtof course you could at least *try* to learn from the mess in maemo extras-devel17:32
lbtand extras-devel was not what you want ... you want a simple place to put shared libs17:33
* khertan1 didn't see extras-devel as a mess17:33
lbtwhere you can reasonably rely on them17:33
lbtkhertan1: ask xerxes217:33
lbtx-fade even17:33
kimjukhertan1, thanks.17:34
lardmanlbt: version changes breaking things you mean?17:34
lbtextras-devel exposed you to every experimental package from every developer17:34
lbtyou got random version changes17:34
lbtit was a mess17:34
lbtsure some people can cope - most can't17:34
DocScrutinizerlbt: this is strictly developer only17:34
khertan1lbt: but it s not supposed to be something to use17:34
lardmanwell that was more an issue of people not bothering to promote as the comments from the QA people were so offhand and rude, imho17:34
khertan1i see it more as a test to promote to testing17:34
lbtyou just don't grok the OBS17:35
khertan1lardman: also17:35
lbteveryone gets their own PPA17:35
rm_workanyone have a link to the community repos list?17:35
lbtwe have a 'shared pkgs' area called Surrounds17:35
lbtwe have a development version called Surrounds:Testing17:35
khertan1and who push to surrounds package ?17:36
lbtthat's where all the shared (eg python) pkgs17:36
lbtthe maintainer17:36
khertan1i mean ... you will got also version change for your app (as a developper)17:36
lbtyou get that through your PPA khertan117:36
rm_workthanks lardman17:36
lardmanPPA sounds fine, as long as it can be enabled and searched quickly and easily17:37
lbtapp version changes are reasonably 'private'17:37
rm_worknow i need to figure out how to parse that page with Perl :P17:37
lbtlardman: we make that work17:37
lbtenabled is trivial17:37
lbtand as a PPA owner you can have *loads* of PPAs17:37
lbtyou own the namespace17:37
lardmanlbt: this all needs to be explained somewhere17:37
lbtlardman: it does17:38
lardmanso that people can be pointed at it17:38
lbtread my blog from 6 months ago :)17:38
lbtit was pre-device so no-one really paid enough attention17:38
lbtbut the framework is all in place17:38
lardmanlbt: needs to be either on the wiki, or linked from the wiki from the migrating from N900 or similar17:38
lbtgive me a few mins to reboot17:38
lardmansure, I certainly didn't pay attention :)17:38
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DocScrutinizerI'm sure qgil_ will kick us all for not discussing this on #meego :-D but anyway seems we're getting really close now. At least I feel this topic might got sorted by tomorrow17:41
lcukDocScrutinizer, better to be discussing it and having the context to use it under17:42
lcukas lbt said, when this was heavily discussed last time there was no device to assist with motivation17:42
lardmanI am coming round to the idea of PPAs, as long as one can search for a package you need (e.g. a library on which you want to rely)17:43
DocScrutinizerlardman: searchability basically was my concern, yes17:44
lcuklardman, the idea of ppas is that once you find that package you bring it into your ppa17:44
lardmanthe one question I do have is how different PPAs are prioritised when you install something - if I have an older version of a lib that I've pulled into my PPA from the original dev, what happens if they update and their PPA is also enabled on my device?17:44
rm_workso are ALL the repositories here?
lardmanrm_work: at a guess, yes17:45
rm_workanyone have any idea why 75% or so (at a glance) are duplicated, one with a colon at the end and one without?17:45
Stskeepsrm_work: home:cvm vs home:cvm:blah17:45
rm_workwow most of these aren't proper apt repos17:46
rm_workdamn i thought that'd be a sweet shortcut to getting all of the repositories but it looks like we actually DONT want 90% of them because they are trash17:47
Stskeepsrm_work: you know, we have rpm repos to17:47
rm_worki maintain my statement then :P17:48
lardmanStskeeps: any ideas about my question a few lines up?17:48
rm_workshort of starting the never ending format war, let's just say i dislike RPM17:48
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lardmanwb lbt17:49
Stskeepslardman: which one?17:49
lardmanI'll repaste for lbt too17:49
Stskeepsrm_work: i've learnt to like rpm personally and i've done deb17:49
lardmanthe one question I do have is how different PPAs are prioritised when you install something - if I have an older version of a lib that I've pulled into my PPA from the original dev, what happens if they update and their PPA is also enabled on my device?17:50
lbtthat's a zypper issue...17:50
lbtwe're in #harmattan17:50
lbtnot #meego17:50
lardmanwell package manager related anyway17:50
lbtso it's depends on pinning17:51
lbtotherwise they are peers (iirc)17:51
khertan1hum ... i got segfault on a qml code. Someone have idea how to found the problem on device knowing that i'm doing the code part in python and it s not supported by qtcreator17:51
* lardman has a read17:52
lbtalso ... much of this is aimed at a 'grand vision' ... I'm not expecting that to be the first and last step on the journey17:53
mgedminkhertan1, gdb?17:54
lardmanso what is the name of the harmattan obs thingie that one can build againsy?17:55
lardmanoh ok17:56
kimjuworks for me, but the publishing of the repo took a while.17:57
lardmanno that's fine, was just checking the wiki page and see it's been added there too17:58
khertan1X Error: BadAccess (attempt to access private resource denied) 1017:59
khertan1  Extension:    135 (MIT-SHM)17:59
khertan1  Minor opcode: 1 (X_ShmAttach)17:59
khertan1  Resource id:  0x300000217:59
khertan1< any idea ?17:59
khertan1oups ... too much line17:59
mgedmintha'ts not a segfault18:00
mgedminthat's an X error18:00
mgedminan interesting one18:01
mgedminthat I've no clue how to debug, sorry!18:01
khertan1mgedmin: yeah sometime i got this error ... sometime segfault18:01
mgedminfbreader segfaults when you minimize it18:01
DocScrutinizerif in doubt, blame aegis ;-P18:04
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khertan1it s an aegis problem !!! there is the word "denied" and "private"18:04
Mekbah, qtmobility's qml Map widget is so broken... it randomly doesn't render half the MapObjects I add to it, it randomly crashes on orientation changes...18:06
mgedminlife on the bleeding edge18:07
fralskhertan1: what are you doing when it crashes?18:09
grikhertan: Did you try the MDeclarativeCache? Do you also have the impression it doesn't actually boost anything on the device?18:10
khertan1 view.setSource('qml3/main.qml')18:10
khertan1frals: view is a QDeclarativItem18:11
lcukkhertan1, does your app work on the netbook devices?18:11
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fralsKhertan: item? not view?18:11
lcukso that the meego ideapad or similar can do source editing18:11
khertan1frals: view ... sorry :)18:13
khertan1lcuk: for the moment it didn't work at all on harmattan :)18:13
khertan1got strange error18:13
khertan1this is the problem i'm trying to resolve18:13
fralskhertan1: does it work with a simple qml file like Rectangle { color: "green" }?18:14
khertan1now i ve a more complete error :
khertan1frals: yep18:14
khertan1and works in the qemu simulator18:14
fralskhertan1: could you share your qml? :)18:15
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khertan1frals: yep of course18:24
khertan1but i found the error18:24
khertan1stupid ... mistake18:24
khertan1view .... was ... garbage collected18:24
fralskhertan1: haha :)18:24
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lardmancatch you tomorrow everyone18:28
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DocScrutinizerlardman|gone: don't forget to DL chanlog!18:31
lardman|gonedocscrutinizer: lucky I saw the flashing icon there ;)18:31
lardman|gonewill do!18:31
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kimjuhmm.. "apt-cache show mp-harmattan-rm680-pr" - this seems to be some metapackage, depending on all the system components belonging to this release (1.2011.22-6). but it seems to depend on specific versions of the components with =, not with the more relaxed >=.18:38
kimjuI'd like to update xkb-data to my own version, containing "developer" hwkb-layouts (including at least |, ~ and ^ for english base and for finnish usage, a & o umlauts). I can replace the package with dpkg --purge --force-all & reinstall, but if I change its version number then the mp-harmattan-rm680-pr stays in broken state and apt keeps complaining.18:38
mgedminkimju, consider using dpkg-divert instead18:39
kimjuand reusing the original version number for the edited package would be wrong18:39
mgedminthat way you don't have to remove/upgrade xkb-data18:39
mgedmininstead you install a new package that nicely replaces some of the files originally belonging to xkb-data18:39
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kimjuI'm not sure if aegis allows me to do that.18:40
mgedmindo what, exactly?18:40
kimjudivert a file included in an official package.18:41
kimjuwith a package from non-trusted source.18:41
DocScrutinizeranyway the issue is well known from fremantle CSSU18:41
mgedminI still think it's worth a try18:41
kimjuin this specific case I think it's possible to also create an additional file containing the new layouts.18:42
mgedminaegis didn't forbid me from editing files belonging to the meego-keyboard package18:42
mgedminI'm not that familiar with aegis, but I get the impression that it protects binaries more than it protects other stuff18:43
DocScrutinizerkimju: previously on fremantle the suggested solution been to uninstall the metapackage all together18:43
kimjuwill that break upcoming SSUs?18:44
DocScrutinizerwhich also has undesirable side effects18:44
mgedminI would be cautious about dpkg-divert'ing a binary18:44
mgedminwell, an executable file18:45
mgedmin(one that requests extra security tokens)18:45
mgedminbut data files? should be safe18:45
DocScrutinizer>>>After installing the package, do NOT modify the installed files if they request a token. Security FW will discover an unexpected change in the file and lock the device (ops! reflash). <<< HAHA18:49
DocScrutinizerWTF aegis?18:49
kimjucan you point to an example of simple data package diverting a file?18:49
kimjuI'll try if that solution works.18:50
mgedminI used it a long time ago for exactly that purpose: diverting one of keymap files18:51
mgedminor was it Compose?18:51
mgedminanyway, reshuffled all their xkb files and my package no longer installs cleanly18:51
mgedminbut the principles are still valid18:51
kimjuok, thanks.. lets see what happens..18:53
mgedminI wonder if debhelper has a way to do it more easily than manually writing preinst and postrm scripts18:53
DocScrutinizerwouldn't you think that A) aegis should forbid editing rather than getting upset after editing happened? and B) wasn't it *absolutely enough* to not allow to execute the "binary" after it got edited - WTF has aegis to "lock the device"?18:53
mgedminDocScrutinizer, I completely agree18:53
DocScrutinizeras I see it this is a mayor SECURITY FLAW of aegis, as any simple rogue malware could make your device lock and destroy all your system plus probably all your data18:55
kimjueasy DoS18:55
DocScrutinizerhow's that going to protect the user? in *any* way? from whatever?18:56
mgedminit's supposed to protect MAFIAA from users "hacking" their devices, I think18:57
DocScrutinizerof course18:57
DocScrutinizerbut that's really too much18:58
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cpscottioh my.. the pinch zoom in the task switcher is SO beautiful and so useless at the same time.. can't stop doing it.. :D18:59
DocScrutinizersee, I can edit the file anyway, when mounting the fs to another aegis-free system. So why needs the device to lock, rather than just forbid execution of the edited file18:59
mgedminoops, accidentally hit 'close all' in task switcher19:00
mgedminthought it was 'cancel'19:00
DocScrutinizerI'd maybe even accept a instant reboot, but locking is *EVIL*19:00
cpscottimgedmin, haha.. yep.. There's no explicit cancel.. and "done" is a bad name.19:01
DocScrutinizerno other purpose than punishing devels19:01
cpscottimgedmin, you can click outside of all tasks to cancel it too ... but I think it should cancel if you clicked in one specific task19:01
mgedminI half-hoped I could cancel and switch to a task by double-tapping19:02
cpscottithat would be cool actually19:02
DocScrutinizermgedmin: ??19:03
mgedminDocScrutinizer, what?19:03
DocScrutinizerI do't get the whole purpose/idea19:03
mgedminneither do I19:04
mgedminI'm still half-hoping (again) that maybe this "device is locked" thing is a bit of an exaggeration19:04
DocScrutinizer"done" cancels kill-mode as does taping on background. Killing multiple individual apps in kill-mode is ok to me19:04
mgedminand that maybe it just doesn't let you launch the app, and "suggests" a reflash in the sense that it's a well-defined way for a non-technical user to return to a known good state?19:04
mgedminI'm not curious enough to try and lock my device19:05
mgedminoh, we're talking about _task switching_ now19:05
DocScrutinizermgedmin: definitely device-locked means you have to reflash (unless it recovers on 3rd boot as it once did for javispedro)19:05
DocScrutinizerbut only once19:06
DocScrutinizer(I dang should find out how to resize that image :-S )19:08
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khertan1WUHOUHOUWHOWIWHOU !!! Basic feature of KhtEditor QML edition is now working ... !!! syntax highlighting, open, save, ...19:21
khertan1good evening everyone time to go back home19:22
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kimjumgedmin, at least local (manual) diversion works, even with reinstalling the official package. next step: to package the edited symbols file.19:28
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rm_workhey DocScrutinizer19:35
rm_workDocScrutinizer: can you check out and tell me if it is generating .install files correctly?19:36
rm_workand/or, if it is actually listing all the packages19:36
DocScrutinizerI don't know if it's listing all pkgs ;-)19:36
DocScrutinizerbut I'll check anyway19:36
rm_workyeah, try :P19:36
rm_workjust a first review19:37
rm_worki have no idea if those .install files will be right at all19:37
DocScrutinizerwhat OS version shall I select?19:38
rm_work./ ?19:38
rm_worknew link19:38
rm_worknot to the old packrat19:38
rm_worki just copied the whole thing and started hacking at it19:39
DocScrutinizerduh same window title, so I got tricked into closing new window and doing F5 on old one19:39
rm_workfor example search for "cutesoma"19:42
DocScrutinizer"Download failed \n Couldn't download that file. Type application/x-install-instructions not supported"19:43
rm_workat what point19:43
rm_worktrying to download the .install?19:43
DocScrutinizerat clicking on the download icon19:43
rm_workor, after the package manager opened the .install?19:43
rm_workthat sounds like a browser issue19:43
rm_workthe browser is blocking (or doesn't know about) that mimetype19:44
rm_workwell can you look at an install file on your desktop or something?19:44
rm_workdo you know what they are supposed to look like?19:44
tommai think it contains repo and package to install19:44
rm_workdoes ANYONE here know how to verify the correctness of a .install?19:44
rm_workyeah but19:44
DocScrutinizerI doubt I ever seen an install file for harmattan19:44
rm_workhrm, so does harmattan even support .install?19:44
rm_workhow would we install?19:45
rm_workthere is a deb link19:45
tommai dont think harmattans current manager supports it?19:45
rm_workif you notice19:45
rm_workif you expand the package there is a "Download: <versionnumber>"19:45
rm_workwhere that is a link to the deb19:45
DocScrutinizeryou can install plain .deb right away though19:45
rm_workhow should i handle that19:45
rm_workshould i replace the download icon with the deb?19:45
rm_workthat'd be a dependency nightmare if there's no way to add the repo nicely tho19:46
DocScrutinizersounds kinda resonable19:46
DocScrutinizerI guess aegis simply doesn't allow adding repos19:46
rm_workunfortunately my phone has zero connectivity here19:46
griAre those "X Error: BadMatch" and BadDamage messages normal when creating a QDeclarativeView? (in scratchbox and on device)19:46
rm_workso i can't test anything19:46
rm_workin general though, does this help you?19:47
DocScrutinizerlooks very nice, yes19:47
rm_workk i will have to clean it up a lot more19:47
DocScrutinizereven found mc :-D19:47
rm_workbut usable for now i guess19:47
rm_workyou want to put it on a wiki somewhere or something?19:47
rm_worki have to go to a meeting in a moment19:48
DocScrutinizerI guess it should go to wiki for sure19:48
DocScrutinizerno idea where to though19:48
rm_workyeah me either19:48
rm_workright now it is a manual update by my running the perl script19:48
rm_workbut i will put it on cron in a bit19:48
DocScrutinizerlet's postpone the wiki thing for later when it really works19:48
rm_worki would like people to test it19:48
rm_workand tell me what they want / what is broken19:48
DocScrutinizeryou'll reach a lot of those that actually can test here in this chan19:49
rm_workalso, keep an eye open for a way to make .install (or similar proceedure, automatic adding of a repo) work19:49
rm_workyeah, truth :P19:49
rm_workback in an hour or so19:50
DocScrutinizeralso afk for dinner etc19:50
rm_workwhat does fms go by in IRC?19:56
rm_workwould be easier if i could ask him some stuff19:56
rm_workack, right, meeting, bbl19:56
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rm_you_N950well, webirc works20:23
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "A cozy little place for pure harmattan device and development discussions | Developers check this: | | MeeGo N9(|50) CE on its way, MOSLO still missing, discuss in #meego-arm please | Chanlogs: See ~logs,"20:34
alteregoI really miss having a dedicated camera button.20:37
alteregobut the camera is so quick, kinda makes up for it I suppose.20:38
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wazd <- PicoDrive Harmattan icon, anyone? :)20:39
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DocScrutinizeralterego: notice however flash is by far not as quick as camera20:40
alteregoforgivable :p20:41
DocScrutinizeralterego: and finally you found the camera yes it is quick, but until you *get there* - hah, I beat that with N900 hands down20:41
alteregoI keep it open in task switcher now.20:41
wazdawww, nobody's interested in harmattan icons *turns on sad violine* :(20:43
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DocScrutinizerwazd: your selling is no good20:50
DocScrutinizerwazd: nice icon - what's been the question?20:51
DocScrutinizermaybe my problem is I got no clue what's PicoDrive20:51
tommaDocScrutinizer, i would say that getting to camera is faster as camera application starts a lot faster than in n90020:52
DocScrutinizertomma: maybe, when you actually *know* all the swipes and scrolls and whatnot you have to do to unlock, and get to camera20:53
tommathere is this shortcut even from lock screen20:53
DocScrutinizertomma: on N900 I open the cam lens slider - done20:53
DocScrutinizerwut? from lockscreen?20:53
DocScrutinizerindeed, never occured to me20:54
npmyay... i got video playback working ....
npmit *was* aegis afterall20:55
npmadded    <credential name="GRP::video" /> to qmltube.aegis and now it works20:56
tommafor video playback?20:56
DocScrutinizertoldya, when in doubt, blame aegis20:56
tomma=) and x11vnc doesn't need anything to access framebuffer20:57
npmmy suspicions were right, despite djzapi saying otherwise20:57
npmanyways, please check out my port of cutetube-qml20:58
rm_worknpm: instructions to install?20:59
tommais this debug build?20:59
tommarm_work, dpkg -i <package>20:59
rm_worklol yes well21:00
rm_workwas wondering about anything besides just installing the deb21:00
rm_workdoes aegis complain, etc21:00
tommait does not if there is working manifest21:00
rm_workalso, someone please look at
npmtomma: no it's a regular build21:01
rm_worki want an mplayer build21:01
wazdDocScrutinizer: well, it's Sega Genesis Emulator for maemo :)21:01
npmrm_work "wget ; dpkg -i qmltube_1_0_6_armel.deb"21:02
tommanpm, you have whole repository packed there?21:02
npm for details21:02
leinirgo to site in browser, click on deb, download, tap deb once completed, say "yes, i don't care it's not coming from Nokia", wait for thing to finish installing... ;)21:03
npmtomma: what do you mean?21:03
tommaatleast a lot of .svn folders =)21:03
npmoh yeah there's a weird bug21:03
npmwhich i have in both my packages21:03
npmqmlcreator seems to be including my .svn dirs21:03
npmthey shouldn't be there/21:03
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npm(ignore for now, yes it makes package bigger)21:04
npmbut if you have suggestions on how to  make DEPLOYMENTFOLDERS in  not include my .svn dirs, i'd love to hear about it21:06
npmnote i haven't checked in the latest changes that built the above .deb21:06
npmsince i just got it built w/ video working/21:06
tommaaah... never used that template =)21:06
tommayou can always put qml files to resources21:07
tommabut nice looking app21:07
rm_workok have to walk outside to get network, will be right back (trying to get a video to play)21:07
npmit's not mine21:07
npmi actually don't like the UI. i just ported it to linux/meego and harmattan21:07
npmmy goal is to use some of the infrastructure that works (like the video playing stuff and the OpenGL additions that make it work on harmattan)21:08
npmsince the original author also has an n950 i'll let him do his thing and support his own prog21:09
DocScrutinizerwazd: now I know why you are the graphics expert of maemo community :-D21:09
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rm_workwazd: that icon looks very strange O_o but i do not know what it is referencing21:11
DocScrutinizerI think it looks unique and kinda nice, with a very own appeal21:11
DocScrutinizerand I guess if I'd know PicoDrive I'd probably recognize the icon immediately21:12
npmi have been sending patches, which have been dutifully ignored ( )21:12
wazdDocScrutinizer: well, it's the whole series of icons for maemo/meego emulators21:12
wazdDocScrutinizer: like <- NES, <- SNES and so on21:13
DocScrutinizerwazd: HAH the 6 buttons21:13
npmby the way, how do you force the virtual keyboard to pop-down? force focus on some other widget?21:13
wazdDocScrutinizer: well, I agree it looks strange for those who absolutely don't know what it is :)21:14
DocScrutinizerI didn't say that21:14
DocScrutinizeractually the very first one had quite some appeal to me21:15
npmby the way, what happens if you change a QML file on an installed program, will aegis lock it up, or only if you change the binary?21:15
wazdDocScrutinizer: cool :)21:15
npmor does it also automatically checksum the QML files21:15
DocScrutinizernpm: up to anybody's guess21:18
DocScrutinizernpm: I'd say test it and prepare for reflash21:18
DocScrutinizeroh wait, we got NO proper backup tool :-/21:19
DocScrutinizerso you better script all your setup and customization21:20
DocScrutinizeroh wait, we don't know how to do any of that either21:20
DocScrutinizermaybe modulo the wget X && dpkg -i X bits21:21
DocScrutinizerQED: developers are wasting 80% of their time fighting aegis21:22
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DocScrutinizerwhile not really needing any of the "added security" it offers21:22
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npmi'm not wasting my time fighting aegis. i just spent a little time learning about it and its a good and necessary idea for mobile handsets21:23
DocScrutinizerhell there's not even a single commercial app on our harmattan that would "need" aegis, like yoghurtsport or angry birds or skype or...21:23
DocScrutinizernpm: ooh, also for developer devices?21:24
npmwell nobody is going to put a commercial app involving money, secure comms, etc on the device w/o  it21:24
npmand developers need to get used to working with it21:25
DocScrutinizer:nod: that's why we got no angry birds, no skype, no joikuspot on N900 - it had no fscknf aegis21:25
* mzanetti used skype a lot on the N90021:25
npmwell it took me one day to figure out how to write an aegis file that got video working... there's probably an aegis confug that progs lneed21:26
DocScrutinizerand yes, I need to errrr WUT? I give a f* about aegis until my app works as it should, then I will test it with aegis21:26
npmwhy wouldn't skype from maemo be portable to harmattan?21:27
Mekthere is skype for harmattan, just not on these developer devices21:27
npmoh. cool. where?21:28
DocScrutinizernot for you, fool21:28
DocScrutinizerfor the trustworthy developer only!21:28
DocScrutinizer"we" are BOT trustworthy21:28
Mekyeah, nokia-internal/subcontractors only at the moment.. but it will be on the actual released devices21:28
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DocScrutinizerso our devices *can not* run angry birds or skype21:29
DocScrutinizeras well as can not disable aegis21:29
DocScrutinizerwhich is kinda paradox21:29
Mekthe device can run it, you just 'don't have access to the packages...21:29
kimjuremember that this is still pre-release software..21:29
GeneralAntillesI just want GTalk.21:30
kimjuthose packages might come available with the real release..21:30
DocScrutinizerI heard the image won't flash21:30
npmwell we're supposed to be developing apps :-) and probably expected to buy an n9 for all the product stuff21:30
Mek"the image"?21:30
hiemanshuwe should have all the apps on the actual release, or I am just going to send the N950 back, and duct-tape a BT KB to the N921:30
DocScrutinizerthe image that provides the commercial apps to internals21:30
npmby the way, would it be a violation of my agreement to enable twitter capabilities?21:30
hiemanshunpm: until you dont speak about it, who will know? :P21:31
Mekthere are about 50 or so images made for various configurations each night, and among those since recently are also images for non-R&D n950s21:31
Mekand otherwise still just apt-get installing angry-birds and skype was no problem :)21:32
DocScrutinizerhmm, ok then21:32
npmi think it's just missing some keys, which i can steal from other distros per
MeeGoBotBug 14852 maj, High, ---, robert.bradford, VERI FIXED, [REG]Facebook option is blank in status panel21:32
npm(which is what i do for regular meego netbook tablet too)21:33
DocScrutinizerstill I wonder why aegis can't get disabled on CE devices, while there's evidently nothing on those devices that needs this kind of restrictive hard protection21:33
hiemanshuI understand the need to have aegis on the device, so it would work on the N9 too with it enabled, but dev mode should have an option to disable aegis, so you can test it without having to create a new package everytime21:34
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: exactly21:35
Mekyes, i agree21:36
hiemanshuI would prefer not wasting time porting opencv on the device, creating a aegis manifest, creating a package installing it, everytime I fix something in the code21:36
npmisn't there a "developer mode"21:36
DocScrutinizerall his aegis "protection" is just a nuisance for normal developing workflow, and the aegis-selfdistruct is the obsolute WTF of the year21:36
npmor is that just "develsh"21:37
hiemanshunpm: its just to enable develsh, and devel-su21:37
npmoh so that's how to become root. i've been sshing in as root :-)21:38
npmwell its only my 3rd day w/ device21:38
npmand i got 1.5 programs running21:39
npmand yes i'm still battling aegis on the other.21:39
npmi'll start complaining by DocScrutinizer if i cant fix it after a while :-)21:39
DocScrutinizerI'm taking bets on how many apps will be available for N9 that were not available for N900 for the only reason N900 had no "protection" via aegis. I bet that'll be exactly 0.021:40
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: naah, it will be -10021:41
DocScrutinizermore like it21:41
hiemanshumost people wont port their apps because of the forced QML move and/or aegis21:41
npmhow forced is the qml move... i haven't taken a survey of the libraries. whoah where's libgtk+ etc?21:43
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npmbut doesn't "meego compliance" require it?21:43
npmi thought the claim was that harmattan was "api compatible" or somesuch w/ meego21:44
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DocScrutinizerI'd think if gtk was available, probably somebody already had ported xchat and I *might* actually use the device21:44
DocScrutinizeryeah QML API compatible21:45
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: I have a ugly-ish version of quassel2go running :P21:45
DocScrutinizerand QtMobiliy21:45
DocScrutinizerooh, with meego. Sorry no idea. Thought you said "with maemo"21:46
npmwell it is "MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan"21:47
npmmaybe file a bug report?21:48
wazdsomebody's already porting QuitIM21:49
wazdSo I guess we'll have multi-protocol chat after all :)21:50
RST38hno way to write plugins for the existing harmattan chat?21:52
fralsits telepathy so i assume existing ones should more or less work21:52
griI don't think the accounts api is compatible to setup an account for the telepathy plugin22:00
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GeneralAntillesCommunity support is one of the biggest strengths of the platform, I don't get crippled plugin interfaces.22:03
RST38hGeneral, have you got yours finally?22:03
GeneralAntillesGot it Monday afternoon.22:04
GeneralAntillesWishing for better Components docs (or some well-commented sample code that actually works) and a software update. . . .22:05
tommause those components .qml as reference22:10
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GeneralAntillesTrying to get a ButtonRow in my toolbar (for page tabs) to not either explode the toolbar or give me a black screen.22:13
fralsGeneralAntilles: error messages and code?22:14
fiferboyGeneralAntilles: Anchoring left and right on the toolbar worked for me22:14
GeneralAntillesfrals, don't currently have my head in the code.22:14
fralsGeneralAntilles: ok22:14
GeneralAntillesGonna try again tonight and upload it if I can't figure it out.22:14
fralsi do a fair bit of qml at work so might be able to provide some help22:15
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grinice qt-components bugs I discovered today: there is no Separator component; the undocumented MoreIndicator does not support theme inversion; the ScrollDecorator is invisible when the page has inverted theme; ListDelegate's selection ignores theme inversion; there is no basic Header element for showing a icon, title and subtitle22:18
griWhere should I file this? meego? Nokia? nowhere?22:18
fiferboyOoo, header with icon, title, and subtitle would be useful22:19
griI did it myself to have the same look as other UIs in accounts-ui22:20
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javispedroinfobot: genius.23:03
infobotAn arbitrary precision integer and multiple precision floatingpoint calculator. URL:
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DocScrutinizerinteresting :-D23:04
crevetoralterego: it's that time of the day again. Any ideas ?23:04
javispedroAnyone did custom "account types" in Fremantle?23:05
javispedro(that is MSN, etc.)23:05
javispedroI wonder how much different it is from Harmattan.23:05
javispedrocause I believe final device won't have XMPP support. At all. Only GTalk.23:05
crevetorwhat do you mean "did" ?23:06
javispedroAccount stuff "should" be open, and we have the xmpp telepathy backend installed, so it should not be a hard task.23:11
javispedro(and in the meanwhile we could use such a plugin for gtalk access ( ;) ) )23:12
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DocScrutinizerwow that last post almost broke my lexem analyzer / parser23:13
javispedrotoo shallow stack?23:15
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rlinfatiHi, some one can see for me the bug QDesktopServices::openUrl(url) not working in Maemo6 ( on ??23:17
rlinfatii have the same problem :(23:18
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: more like local context leaking to outer frame on stack23:19
DocScrutinizersome implicit escaping kicked in on ;) and was still active on )23:21
DocScrutinizerwhich somewhat caused the emoticon regex to act greedy23:22
javispedrothere, backlogs read.23:29
* javispedro _loves_ logs.23:29
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GeneralAntillesI hate reading backlog.23:43
DocScrutinizerI hate backlog building up while I read backlog23:45
GeneralAntillesYeah, that too.23:48
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