IRC log of #europython for Friday, 2009-06-26

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zethMichael Jackson, 80s pop star, is dead01:40
fuzzymanis it confirmed yet?02:08
mattiOh dear02:08
fuzzymanit was just one website reporting it (TMZ) up until recently02:08
fuzzymanhe was a very odd man02:08
fuzzymanlots of other sites saying he is in a coma02:08
fuzzymanHmmm... BBC now saying he is dead02:09
fuzzymanso fair enough02:09
zethHe's dead, he's dead, he's really really dead02:17
zethNow I have a minibreak in London to fill with something else02:17
fuzzymanthere are rumours his plastic surgeon has enough spares to fulfil the tour obligations, so don't change plans too quickly.02:18
zeth(previous line before was to the tune of 'Bad')02:18
mattiHave a coffee.02:18
zethlol02:18
zethHe's been hit by, he's been struck by, a cardiac arrest02:18
zethdoesn't quite fit02:18
fuzzyman:-)02:19
fuzzymanI can see you're very emotional about this02:19
zethShe who must be obeyed is the biggest Michael Jackson fan02:19
fuzzymanahhhh02:19
mattiOh dear.02:19
mattiLets talk about something else.02:19
matti;02:19
matti;]02:19
zethI thought he was reasonable 80s act with slightly questionable relationship to children02:19
zethbut wife insisted on buying tickets to the concert in London 0202:20
zethso we have hotel (£30) and national express tickets (3 * £4), so I won't waste it ;)02:21
zethbig spender me ;)02:21
mattiHehe02:21
zethtickets were 4 * £3, otherwise someone is not going home02:21
zethhopefully there will be musical or suchlike instead02:22
fuzzymanthat's very cheap - both for hotel and coach02:22
fuzzymanI'm sure you'll find something else02:22
zethWe are efficient ;)02:22
mattiQuestion: can somebody recommend nice gadget?02:22
zethhotel is right next to 0202:22
fuzzymangadget...02:22
mattiI want to spoil myself for my 25h b-day.02:22
zethmatti: mincer02:22
mattis/h/th/02:22
fuzzymandid I hear someone gadget02:22
fuzzymansay02:22
mattizeth: Hahahah02:22
zethThey are really good02:22
mattiReliable.02:22
matti;]02:23
zethWe have She Who Must be Obeyed Granny's02:23
fuzzymanhttp://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/weblog/arch_d7_2009_06_13.shtml#e109902:23
zethit is really nice02:23
mattiI see that someone is in a very sacrastic mood.02:23
fuzzymaniPhone is great02:23
matti;]02:23
fuzzymanPre is almost as good02:23
fuzzymanAndroid phone probably as good as Pre02:23
zethyou cut up meat and mince it, so you can mix meats in cool ways02:23
mattiYeah.02:23
mattiI reckon.02:23
mattiThere is one slight glitch.02:23
zethlike beef and pork etc02:23
mattiYou see.02:23
matti;]02:23
mattiI am a vegetarian.02:24
fuzzymanthat blog entry is a review of three different gadgets02:24
mattiCarror + Mincer = ???02:24
mattiCarrot02:24
zethit would handle a carrot02:24
fuzzymanwhy are you a vegetarian?02:24
mattiIts a long story.02:24
mattiI can tell you at EPC.02:24
matti;]02:24
fuzzymantell me over a beer or two02:24
zethfuzz what hotel are you in>02:24
mattiSure thing.02:25
matti;02:25
zethetap again or did you splash out?02:25
fuzzymanI'm at the cheap one02:25
fuzzymanthe boss booked :-(02:25
fuzzymanand I couldn't be arsed to change it02:25
zethd'oh02:25
zethwell you get a bit fit02:26
matti;|02:26
fuzzymanthere for a frickin week02:26
zeththe other one is lovely02:26
zeth;)02:26
fuzzymanwhich is the other one?02:26
zeththe one by the canal02:26
mattiPremier02:26
matti;]02:26
fuzzymanhow much it cost?02:26
zethright near the venue and all the historic looking bits02:26
fuzzymanstill any vacancies?02:27
fuzzymanI might see if I can sell my room to ronny who was looking for a room...02:27
zethhttp://www.europython.eu/registration/02:27
mattiAnyway... besides mincer.02:27
mattiAnything else?02:27
zethWell john might be able to swap it in the background02:27
zethIt is basicially double02:27
fuzzymanhmmm - I'd have to find £42002:28
fuzzymanI'm staying a frickin week02:28
zethwell 62 instead od 3802:28
zethexcept on Sunday, when the Premier is 31 for some weird reason02:28
mattiYeah02:29
fuzzymanhotels often cheaper at weekends02:29
mattiI was expecting weekend to be more expensive02:29
fuzzymanyeah - but I'd have to pay it all myself02:29
fuzzymanexcept what I can get back from someone else02:29
zethweird, that hotel seems to be different quite a lot between nights02:29
zethbut if John in the background, reused that etap booking02:29
zeththen it would only be the difference02:30
fuzzymangoogle news reporting that Jeff Goldblum died as well02:30
mattiWOT02:30
zethbut it depends if your boss booked through us or directly02:30
mattiOdd.02:30
fuzzymanI'll ask John - although he might want to strangle me02:30
fuzzymanhe booked through us02:30
fuzzymandid you see the latest tweet from the EuroPython account?02:30
zethSay that you want to be nearer the venue so that you can help more02:30
fuzzymanha02:30
zethlol02:31
matti;]02:31
zethFunny tweet02:34
fuzzymanOnly just finished my talk02:36
fuzzymanisn't that bad :-(02:36
zethI am still doing mine02:36
fuzzymanheh02:37
zethConference organising filled my time I had alloted last weekend to do it02:37
zethI am trying to think of new XML jokes so I don't have to re-use those from PyConUK02:37
fuzzymanthis isn't PyCon UK02:38
fuzzymanyou can reuse anything02:38
fuzzymanit's great02:38
fuzzyman:-)02:38
fuzzyman matti you decided on a gadget?02:39
zethwell last year I had way too much material and too much enthusiam02:39
zethso I might just use one slide out of it02:39
zeth;)02:39
fuzzymanhow is too much enthusiasm poossible?02:39
fuzzymanI didn't see your talk02:40
fuzzymanin fact I don't recall many talks02:40
fuzzymanah...02:40
zethIt was me and a friend02:40
zethwe had 30 min slot02:40
zethwe each had about 45 mins tutorial02:40
fuzzymanhah02:40
zethand we followed Someone that went 10 minutes over02:40
zethso we spoke at amazing speed02:40
zethso that I am not sure how easy it was to understand02:41
zethI think we got the main points across02:41
zethbut02:41
zethI think I could have done it bit less02:41
zethThis year is me alone in 45 mins02:41
zethand I am before a break02:41
zethso I can do less material02:41
zethand leave good time for discussion02:42
zethand if don't have discussion, we go and get the food first02:42
zethor tea and biscuits02:42
mattifuzzyman: No.02:51
mattifuzzyman: I have no idea.02:51
mattifuzzyman: I had this period in my life, when I was gathering a lot of junk.02:52
mattifuzzyman: Now... I can't be asked to go and buy more junk.02:52
matti;]02:52
fuzzymanheh02:52
fuzzymanbuying junk is bad02:52
fuzzymang'night02:52
mattiWell.02:52
fuzzymanI'm going to bed02:52
mattiGood night fuzzyman ;]02:52
mattiSleep tight.02:52
mattifuzzyman: Junk as "stuff that I dont really need..."02:53
fuzzymanI understand02:53
fuzzymanI have bought much stuff I don't need in the past02:53
fuzzymanI get annoyed with myself when I do it02:53
fuzzymananyway02:54
fuzzymanreally g'night02:54
matti;]02:54
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Mezzeth, does this mean I have the arduous task of trying to get you to shut up on Wednesday ?13:23
zethHi13:31
zethTuesday I think13:31
zethMez: wed would ne nice one more day to prepare13:31
zethbut alas the put me on the first day of chaos13:31
mattiHi zeth13:32
zethMorning matti13:33
Mezlol13:44
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fionahalf expected this to be empty14:35
MrTopfI feel very empty ..14:48
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fionawhy is thta?14:50
fionais this a sympathy plea? :P14:50
zethlol15:03
zethWe are all a bit tired out from organing maybe ;)15:03
zethOr people are sad about michael Jackson? ;-)15:03
mattiHeheh15:03
zethfiona: Hwo are you?15:03
mattiMichael Jackson.15:04
mattiThe amount of jokes floating in the office today makes me worried.15:04
matti;]15:04
fionaI'm fine thanks15:05
fionastill reeling over the shock from michael jacksons death15:05
mattiShock?15:06
mattiGod.15:06
mattiPeople die you know.15:06
mattiKinda normal thing.15:06
zeth well he was only 50, and was about to have a big comeback15:08
fionayeah but very few times do legends of that calibre die15:08
fionaand yes just before his comeback tour15:08
mattiPhew.15:08
MrTopfprobably because his comeback tour15:08
zethI had tickets, but I do think people around me here need to get a reality check15:08
zethMrTopf: indeed15:09
mattizeth: Yeah.15:09
fionai've been told all the tickets are magically being turned into madonna tickets with no whispers of refunds15:09
mattizeth: They do need to stop behaving like 5 years old children and get over it.15:09
zethmadonna?15:09
zethWhat a pile of poo15:09
mattizeth: If not, perhaps we can have Jackson shrine or an altar on the EPC.15:10
matti;]15:10
MrTopfwho's madonna?15:10
mattiWe could organise Jackon karaoke15:11
matti;]15:11
fionaray of light is pretty much the only great song madonna ever released15:11
fionathe rest is forgettable15:11
mattiI like Frozen.15:11
mattiAnyway.15:11
zethFrozen is good despite madonna not because of her15:12
zethThe madonna thing is probably nonsene15:12
zethnonsense15:12
zethit says on the website that refund informaton will be published soon15:12
fionais europy held in a place with minimal windows?15:12
fionabecause the glare on screens will be horrendous otherwise15:12
zethyep15:12
MrTopfwhat's the weather anyway?15:13
zeth1. they are proper lecture rooms15:13
zethThis week has been 26 C here15:13
fionaphew15:13
zethbut next week is storms and rain15:13
zethso no glare here15:13
fionai bought a lovely new coat for the occassion15:13
MrTopfHm..15:13
fionaso i look forward to the rain15:13
zethhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/forecast/210215:13
fionafuck you sunday15:14
zethso it works out kind of well in a way15:14
zeththat I had really sunny week this week, then when I am indoors all week in Europython it rains, then the week after is sunny15:14
mattiHeheh15:14
MrTopfwell, at least not cold15:14
zethwe can't sit on the beach that much if it rains15:15
zeththere is an artifical beach right outside the venue15:15
fionai work in what is practically a greenhouse so i routinely curse the sun15:15
zethBirmingham is not near the sea, so the city council builds a big artifical beach15:15
mattiBleh.15:16
fionathat makes sense15:16
zethand they have parties on it and so on15:16
zethit is free to sit on it15:16
mattiInteresting.15:16
fionathe saturday social has a huge list of names I see15:16
zethHowever, the BBC website always shows the worst weather possible15:17
fionamaybe i should put my paw on it15:17
mattiSaturday social?15:17
fionahttp://wiki.europython.eu/Socials15:17
mattiTBD :P15:18
zethwell that is not true15:18
zethmost of them are decided15:18
fionawhat15:18
fionai tried editing the wiki15:18
fionaand it goes "TextCha: Wrong answer! Go back and try again.."15:18
zethYou have to fill in the stupid box15:18
zethSomeone needs to crib the info from here http://www.europython.eu/talks/timetable/15:18
fionawhich box15:19
fionathe comment? i tried that15:19
zeththe box aking you a quiz question15:19
mattiHaha15:19
fionaoh my that is one hidden captcha15:19
zethI am not sure why one should have to sign up for socials on the wiki?15:19
mattiI am only looking forward to GPG signing party.15:20
fionawell it might push someone into selecting a venue for saturday when the names are actually there15:20
mattiI am not very a people-person :<15:20
mattiDont drink alcohol etc.15:20
fionai'm pretty much the opposite haha15:21
matti:)15:21
mattifiona++15:21
MrTopfI guess I will meet some people at the airport, somebody should do a EP sign so we can create a meeting point :)15:21
fionamy boyfriend is not a people person and doesn't drink15:21
fiona(he's not coming to europy)15:21
mattifiona: So you have catch up for two of you, I see.15:21
matti:)15:21
fionaMrTopf: suggest someone just holds a large draught snake15:22
fionahttp://ecotrendspotter.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/snake_draught_excluderjpg.jpg ssss15:22
mattiOh dear.15:23
mattiI am so lucky.15:23
mattiTrain station is like a throw of a stone from the hotel.15:23
mattiSo is the venue.15:23
matti*smile815:23
fionadon't know where my hotel is in relation to everything15:23
fionagonig to rely on my friends iphone15:23
mattiLOL15:23
mattiI wouldnt realy on iPhone ;]15:24
mattiWhat if you run out of battery power?15:24
zethI added the 'official' socials to the wiki page15:24
zethso people can organise less official socials on the other nights15:24
fionamatti: monkey island has taught me that all i need is a shrunken head15:24
fionaso i have a backup plan15:24
MrTopfmatti: which hotel?15:24
mattifiona: Right....15:24
mattifiona: Especially for you I'll take my favourite t-shirt :)15:25
MrTopfI also looked for some tourist guide at the bookshop today but from my search results I assume that Birmingham has nothing really to show ;-)15:25
fionai'll be wearing my "I beat the swordmaster" tshirt at somepoint i'm sure15:25
mattifiona: "9 of 10 voices if my head agree that drugs are good for you"15:25
mattifiona: Hahah.15:25
fionahaha15:25
mattifiona: I have "I am not a Geek. I am a 9th level Warlord"15:26
matti;]15:26
zethIt is raining massively now15:26
mattiSunny in Slough15:26
matti:/15:26
zethso hopefully it will rain itself out15:26
mattiMrTopf: Premier15:26
fionai also like my "schei?e encoding" tshirt15:27
matti;]15:27
mattiI see you are a proper gekette.15:27
matti;]15:27
fionanot sure if that one is appropriate though15:27
mattifiona: Depends on one's sense of humour tho15:27
matti;]15:27
MrTopffiona: haha :)15:28
MrTopfI would say "Schei? encoding though"15:28
mattiHaha15:28
MrTopfwell, move that quote a bit :-)15:28
MrTopfbut right now I only wear my zensursula tshirt anyway..15:29
fionaMrTopf: yeah it does. memory fail.15:29
zethSo talking of memory15:30
zethI remember MrTopf of course15:30
zethHave I met you before fiona ?15:30
fionanope15:30
zethGood, I have not forgotton who you are ;)15:31
mattiHahha15:31
matti;]15:31
zethbut you are local?15:31
fionahow local?15:32
fionai'm in manchester15:32
zethas in UK15:32
zethcool15:32
fionayup15:33
zethwe can all figure out who we are at the conference ;)15:33
matti;]15:33
MrTopfI am still for an introduction round at the opening :-)15:33
mattiSpecial IRC social event? ;p15:33
zethYeah there is no escape for you matti ;)15:33
fionaMrTopf: scary suggestion15:33
zethMrTopf: with 430 people, that might take the whole first day15:34
MrTopfwell, just name and 3 tags15:34
fionaare there name tags+15:34
mattizeth: Haha.15:34
fiona+15:34
fiona?15:34
MrTopfnah, we had it at barcamps and that was 40 mins15:34
MrTopfor 3015:34
MrTopfdon't remember it that exactly anymore15:34
zethIf everyone keeps to 30 sec15:34
mattizeth: I am too shy I reckon.15:34
zethand there are no breaks15:34
MrTopffrom my experience at least it seemed to work15:35
zethIf everyone keeps to 30 sec, and there are no breaks15:35
zeththen it will be 3 hours 35 minws15:35
MrTopfand you know who is around and what they are doing and to whom you might want to talk15:35
fionahow about everyone introduces themselves.. at the same time...15:35
zethlol15:36
MrTopfname and tags is 5-10 secs15:36
zeththat could work15:36
mattifiona: Introduction FLASH MOB :]15:36
zethall at the same time15:36
* matti like it.15:36
MrTopfis there a list of who is actually there?15:36
fionait is a bit unfair to put everyone on the spot though infront of loads of other folks15:36
mattiDo we need to introduce ourselves?15:36
mattiI can do "Hello. Bye!"15:37
matti10 seconds.15:37
matti;]15:37
MrTopfmaybe for next year I write some social network addition for registration so you can maybe search for tags and connect beforehand or so15:37
* matti blinks.15:37
zethEven if you did it 10 secs with no breathing or stops15:37
zethit would be almost 2 hours15:37
MrTopfusually it was "Christian Scholz, Python, Plone, DataPortability" and next one15:37
mattizeth: :(15:37
fionaugh i still need to install stuff on my laptop for the tutorials15:37
fionacba15:37
zethwe have 15 mins to introduce the crew and to instroduce the rules etc15:38
MrTopfalthough not everybody said that exact phrase ;-)15:38
zethafter that the chaos will begin15:38
mattiI might take my camera with me.15:38
zethplease do15:39
mattiAye15:39
MrTopfbut nevertheless we maybe should think about some simple social network where you can check who is there, what they are working on and maybe contact people in advance so they actually meet15:39
zethwe normally at PyConUK at least, have a photo competition15:39
MrTopfdon't forget to tell people the tag :-)15:39
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zethMrTopf: we have a printed delegate list, a wiki, a mailing list, a facebook group, a twitter account15:39
* fiona has no camera :(15:39
fionaoh no tell a lie there's a little one on my eeepc15:40
MrTopfzeth: well. a printed list is not that searchable esp. regarding interests, projects15:40
MrTopfthat's why I was thinking about a simple network where people voluntarily can list their projects15:41
mattiMrTopf: The tag?15:41
matti;]15:41
MrTopfhow to tag photos or blog posts on e.g. flickr15:41
mattiOh.15:41
mattiThat interesting.15:41
mattiIs there an EPC flickr?15:41
MrTopfso that the outside world also notices that there is some cool python conference happening15:41
zethMrTopf: well I am suggesting that we sort out the site in future, that everyone has a user account and login which lasts between years15:42
MrTopfand people of course also should twitter about it using that as hashtag15:42
mattiMrTopf: I am not very good with social portals.15:42
mattiMrTopf: I can take photos, but ... that's about it ;]15:42
zethwith permanent user account database, you can have all kinds of cool apps built on it15:42
MrTopfzeth: I am of course not proposing to install this for this conference :-)15:42
zethsure15:42
MrTopfbut maybe we can discuss this next week15:42
fionawhat's the average level of python ability at the conference? I'd like to think I'm pretty good, but the friend i'm talking along has never written a line of it.15:43
zethMaybe you should start an open space session about it15:43
MrTopfmatti: but uploading photos to flickr is not that complicated ;-)15:43
zethfiona: mix from novies to core developers15:43
MrTopfzeth: yep, I was thinking about it15:43
mattiMrTopf: I dont have flickr account ;]15:43
fionazeth: what's the ratio? or couldn't you even hazard a guess?15:43
mattiMrTopf: I am not very people-person ;p15:44
MrTopfmatti: also signing up is not that complicated ;-)15:44
mattiDammit ;P15:44
mattiI cant invent any excuse :P15:44
mattiMrTopf++15:44
MrTopfI think it's actually cool to also show photos you shoot :-)15:44
mattiHehe15:45
matti:P15:45
fionadoes flickr support openid?15:45
mattiOh.15:45
fionai haven't signed up for it either15:45
MrTopfit would also be great to get a homepage slot on slideshare but that would mean that people also upload their slides there15:45
mattiThat would make this so much easier.15:45
MrTopfunfortunately yahoo (flickrs parent) is only an openid provider at the moment but no consumer15:45
fionaMrTopf: that seems so backasswards15:45
MrTopfand I agree, it would make things definitely easier15:45
MrTopfthat's why we fight for such things in the DataPortability Project :-)15:46
MrTopfbut even facebook seems to move so maybe yahoo will do that as well (although fb in a strange fashion)15:46
MrTopfand right now I would assume that more effort is done in keeping yahoo alive than to add new features15:46
fionagonna go get a sandwich15:49
fionalate lunch15:49
MrTopfenjoy15:51
zethfiona: I could probably guess at the ratio15:56
zethThis splits into two groups15:56
zethThe Europeans are travelling by air to get here15:56
zethso this weeds out some novices15:56
zethyou have to be quite committed to get on a plane15:56
zethso as a group the average european are more hardcore than the average brit15:57
zethbut the brits have hardcore and novices15:57
zethI have the stats somewhere15:57
zethI don't have time to dig them out15:57
zethwe do a questionaire on the last day of both europython and pyconuks15:58
MrTopfmaybe another thing to store in some database for the future15:58
zethso somewhere will be quite exact stats on what previous abilities there were15:58
zethfrom the top of my head, I would say a good mix15:58
MrTopfand we could check how many people will move their rating up after the conference/tutorials ;-)15:59
zeththough naturally in person most people want to seem 'at their most expert'15:59
zethbecause of subconsious group sociology15:59
zethexcept for the crew which seem at their most tired and shellshocked ;)16:00
fionahehe16:02
fionamakes sense16:02
fionathanks for the answer anyway16:02
MrTopfI am at least a novice at Python 3 ;-)16:03
mattiDo I need to send my GPG key and fingerprint to somebody?16:04
MrTopfmaybe send me your private key and your password, that should be sufficient16:05
mattiSure.16:06
matti;]16:06
mattiMy CC details as well?16:06
matti;p16:06
MrTopfpossibly16:06
mattiAnything else Sir? ;p16:06
MrTopfno, I think that's it, thank you very much, Sir16:06
MrTopfotoh coffee would be good16:07
mattiSure thing.16:07
matti;p16:07
mattiA relaxing massage as well?16:07
matti;p16:07
fionamassages? europy is sounding better and better16:08
mattiLOL16:08
matti;]16:08
MrTopfindeed :)16:09
MrTopfwell, massages have been already a vital part of europython's before16:09
MrTopfusually during conference dinners16:10
fionasounds good, i'm in16:11
mattiEmm...16:12
mattiDont get any ideas folks ;p16:12
mattiFew years ago back in Poland during one of the FOSS conferences.16:12
mattiSomebody found out hot sauna near by.16:13
mattiAnd half of the atendees were gone ;p16:13
mattiI wonder.16:15
fionatypical polish16:15
fionai had a very good polish friend before he left to ga back home a year or so ago16:16
fionahe'd have gone to the sauna too16:16
fionaso would his sister16:16
mattiThere is nothing wrong with sauna tho.16:16
mattiHealthy.16:16
fionaand they are the source of my complete knowledge of polish people16:16
fionahe was pretty great with css too16:16
mattiHehe.16:16
mattiI am self-proclaimed Welsh.16:17
matti;p16:17
mattiFortunately.16:17
mattiI wonder.16:17
fionaI'm british. Born in nottinghamshire. brought up in cyprus and germany and lincolnshire.16:17
fionai'm not sure what i'm self-proclaimed as16:17
fiona"geek" tends to work =/16:18
mattiWell.16:18
matti:)16:18
mattiThat indeed suits you well.16:18
fionai'll live with it16:19
mattiI am Polish - believe or not. But a lot of people on #ubuntu-uk thought that I am Welsh.16:19
mattiFor some reason...16:19
mattiAnyway.16:19
fionathat's funny for some reason16:20
mattiWhat is going on with the Premier Inn and the number of beds in the room?16:20
mattifiona: How so?16:20
matti;]16:20
fionaif i knew it wouldn't be "some reason"16:20
mattiIt was never clear to me, why...16:21
mattiAn extant mystery I'd say.16:21
mattiAt least for me.16:21
matti;]16:21
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mattiambv: /o16:22
mattiOps.16:22
mattiambv: o/16:22
matti;]16:22
ambvmatti: \m/16:22
ambv:D16:22
matti:)16:23
fionarun! we're being emoted!!16:24
fionai think i'm staying at one of the holiday inns16:25
fionaluckily i'm not dealing with it16:25
mattiWell.16:26
mattiI am about to find out on Saturday ;]16:26
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mattiHaha16:30
mattiBruce Eckel's talk r0x16:30
matti;]16:30
fionaWhat is it abount16:31
mattiHis Keynote.16:31
mattiFunny.16:31
mattiSome slides hard to read.16:31
mattiDark letters on the dark background?!16:31
matti;D16:31
zethaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh16:31
zeththankyou16:32
matti?16:32
mattizeth: What was that about?16:32
zethMassive suge in late bookings16:32
zethMassive surge in late bookings16:32
mattiUh :<16:32
zethand we have filled all the hotels16:33
fionaoh dear16:33
zethand I have been repeating the wrong info on the list16:33
zethWe can sort it out16:33
* fiona hugs zeth16:33
mattiI want a hug too.16:33
zethOne hotel told us to continue taking bookings no problem, except they were full16:33
matti;p16:33
zethhugpython 2009 ;)16:34
matti;D16:34
zethI'm cool16:34
zethI have a place16:34
mattizeth: The Force is strong with you!16:34
zethin my own bed16:34
zeth;)16:34
zethwell on the bright side16:35
fionaare you going to offer people without anywhere to stay the bottom half of your bed?16:35
zeththis might be the first conference in the history of Python not to lose a pile of money.16:35
zeththat would be16:35
zethyeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh16:35
fionaare you going to give some back to the "community"?16:35
mattifiona: No.16:35
fionaas in.. put a fiver in each schwag bag16:35
fiona;)16:36
zethI am the community,  so we have it already16:36
zeth;)16:36
fionahaha16:36
mattifiona: Surplus money are to be allocated for mental treatment of the organisers.16:36
zethput on your best Stallone voice to read that "I am the community"16:36
zethmatti: lol!16:36
fionacommunity is a bit of a big word for stallone.. it doesn't work16:36
mattiOh.16:37
mattifiona16:37
mattiHave a faith in people ;p16:37
fionajust the one?16:37
mattiOne is a good start.16:37
matti;d16:37
zethwell the hotel had another hotel in another part of town16:37
zeth2 miles away, in the red light district, which is not ideal16:38
zethit was going to just put people in there16:38
fionano way that's perfectly ideal16:38
fionai'll go there16:38
zethlol16:38
zethI used to live there for three years actually16:39
fionai'll probably find a completely different python conference16:39
zethwhen I first moved here I did not know the areas16:39
zethfiona: lol!16:39
mattifiona: Hahaha16:39
zethfantastic16:39
MrTopfa LaTeX conference ;-)16:39
fionahehe16:39
zethhahahah!16:39
mattiOh dear ;p16:39
zeththe rent was cheap16:41
zethand had fanastic bus service16:41
mattiHeheh16:41
zethbut having 'night walkers' come up to you, or having cars stop and shout at women "are you in business" was not ideal16:42
fionaI'd reply, "Yeah, we talking hardware or software?"16:43
fionalol i am a terrible person16:46
zethlol16:51
zethyou would be great there16:51
zeththey are going to redevelop it16:51
zethand then the house prices will boom16:51
zethbut the remaining people there need a hard skin until then16:51
zeththey will send the metro down the middle of it16:52
fionasounds redevelopmentastic16:53
zethit is only a mile or two out of centre16:56
zethproblem with the area is that it was originally posh area in 1800s16:56
zethso the houses are all oversized16:56
zethso they deteriorated into bedsits16:56
fionawe recently moved16:57
zethnot many people have enough kids these days to warrant a ten bedroom house16:57
fionafrom a one bedroom flat to a two bedroom house16:57
fionaand now i want a three bedroom house16:57
zethoh right16:58
fionaten beds?16:58
fionathat's the kind of shit students would pile in to16:58
zethwhy to fit stuff in, or have you been instantiating?16:58
zethwell that is not so much the student area16:58
zethbut that is why I went there originally16:58
zeththe house we were was beautiful victorian house with six beds16:59
zeththey auctioned it after we moved out for some terribly cheap price16:59
zethI maybe should have bought it ;16:59
zeth)16:59
zethI am about to exchange on a rundown two-bed in posh area17:00
zethwhat is manchester house prices like now?17:00
fionai dunno really17:00
fionai rent17:00
fionadid have a gander at house prices but they were miles out of our range17:01
fionaand it was to fit stuff in!17:01
fionabasically i bought a very large synthesizer which ended up taking up a large portion of our living room17:01
fionaso we decided that we(i) had outgrown the flat17:02
fiona2nd bedroom in the house in my "music room"17:02
fionamy mum says it's her room17:02
zethhow many people are you?17:02
fionamy best friend says it's her room17:02
fiona217:02
fioname and boyfriend17:02
zethyeah stuff files the space available17:02
zethyeah stuff fills the space available17:02
zeththis will be remembered as the age of cheap chinese crap17:03
zethfuture generations will be able to dig and find the chinese crap layer in the ground17:03
fionaI'm going for a chinese meal tonight17:04
fionawhich means i will probably end up producing more chinese crap later on17:04
zethlol ;)17:04
zethhilarious17:04
* SafPlusPlus snickers17:04
zethI love word jokes17:04
zethI currently rent two bed17:05
zeththe new house will be first time I own a house17:05
zethand I will be completely broke afterwards17:05
zethwithout the recession etc, I would not been able to afford anything17:05
zethnow the house price is cheap, but to get a decent mortgage one needs to put down over 25%17:06
zethwhich is a lot of money to find down the sofa17:06
fionayes indeed that was our issue17:06
zetheven the cheap made in china crapped on sofa17:06
fionano one would be willing to lend it to us17:06
fionaas that's how they got into this mess in the first place17:07
zeththe first-time buyer is damned in every situation17:07
zethAt least with 25% deposit, it is quicker to pay off I supoose17:08
zethsuppose17:08
fionayou'll probably never pay it off, not till you sell the house, some of the precedings will go into it17:08
fionathat's usually how it works anyway17:08
zethwell17:10
zethapparently the average family income is £32,779 before tax.17:11
zethI have never earned anything close to that in Birmingham17:11
fionaany idea if this wellington pub sells things less.. beery? i tend to drink things that are vodka based.17:11
zethbut I may do17:11
zethfiona: I have been there, I think so17:11
fionathat per-year?17:11
zethbut I can't remember since I only drank beer17:12
zethapparently the average family income is £32,779 before tax per year.17:12
fionai think we're earning just around that before tax17:12
fionamaybe a little bit over17:12
zethbut I am only a year into working full time, and my woman does not earn now17:12
fionabut we're a couple of developers which i guess is bit more than average job by definition17:12
zethin a few years I might hopefully17:12
zeth(I did three degrees so did not start earning full time until last year)17:13
zethanyhow, if we bring home that level of income17:13
zeththen I hope to pay off the mortgage quicker17:13
fionayou'd be surprised how quickly money disappears17:13
zethsince the quicker you pay it off, the less interest you pay over the term17:13
fionaeverytime i get a raise i feel like i don't see it17:14
zethwell that is self-discipline I suppose17:14
fionathe more i conciously don't spend the more i seem to spend it seems17:14
zethbetween 2002-4, my woman and I lived on 6000 per year together17:14
fionafrig that17:14
zethnow I earn mid 20s per rata17:15
zethif things go well, next year I be just below 30s per rata17:15
zethwe still spend very little17:15
zethso that is how we got to buying house17:15
zethI want to pay it off well before I am 4017:16
fiona:)17:16
fionahow old are you now?17:16
zeth2917:16
fionatick-tock tick-tock17:16
zethI came from poor family, so I want any future instances to have better chance17:16
zethso I need to pay off house if I am going to send any future instances to harvard ;)17:17
fionai don't essentially come from a poor family as such. but when my parents split up and i ended up living with my mum we became poor.17:17
fionaharvard!?17:17
fionai presume you mean oxford or cambridge17:17
zethWell my dad hving three divorces led to the poverty17:17
zethsome people should be neutured ;)17:17
fionawhat number month is june17:17
zeth6 for non-mathematians17:18
zeth5 in real workd17:18
zethin code world17:18
fionamy phone only understands non mathematician17:18
fionai like how code-world is real-world17:21
fionai know how you feel17:21
fionai pointing to a piece of text on a piece of paper other day and said "just copy that string"17:22
zethyeah I know17:34
zethTrying to press Ctrl+F on paper books17:34
fionalooking at walls and instinctively thinking "The bumpmapping on that wall is pretty crap."17:35
fionaboth true stories17:35
SafPlusPlusThat sounds terribly familiar... :)17:40
zethI wish my family had a Python API17:41
SafPlusPlusI feel that the ability to monkey patch your family is like cheating... :P17:41
mattizeth: json-rpc ;p17:42
zethor catch them as an event and spawn a deferred object17:42
matti;]17:42
zethmother = Parent()17:43
mattiWe can have multiple inherictance :P17:43
zethmother.send_her_card()17:43
zethdelete(mother)17:43
mattiCruel :<17:43
fionafunny i have a game library that keeps members for references to fathers, sons and brothers17:43
zeth;) in XML you also have parent elements, child elements17:44
zethsiblings etc17:44
fionayeah but we don't talk about xml17:44
mattiYay.17:44
fiona"here be monsters"17:44
mattiGeeks are scary.17:44
mattiIts like...17:45
matti"Clean your room or I will replace you with small bash script"17:45
matti;]17:45
fionaif you had a roomba you could so do that17:45
zethwell I talk about XML http://www.europython.eu/talks/talk_abstracts/index.html#talk9217:48
zeth;)17:48
zethbut it is nice object-oriented interface so that you don't have to like XML17:49
zethSo I think we are about to go over the next tipping point17:49
zethWe have exactly double last year's attendence17:50
fionamight have to find another venue17:50
zethwe be alright17:50
fionai have contacts at the manchester men arena17:50
fionahaha17:50
zethwe were going to have an event in mancester17:50
zethbut the person was was organising got too busy17:50
zethI here the 02 in London is free17:51
zethI hear the 02 in London is free17:51
zeth(bad joke)17:51
fionado you never put your surname to anything?17:51
zethI try not to17:51
fionawho was organising the manchester one?17:51
zethMy lawyer made me put it on my house deads17:51
fionai have considered starting a python user group17:51
zethcool17:53
zethI started PyWM17:53
zethand would love a local group up there17:53
zethThis website is a bit neglected (by me(17:53
zeth)17:53
zethhttp://python.me.uk/17:53
fionahaha so i see17:54
zethbut we want someone to start northern groups17:54
fioname too17:54
mattiWhere would be Slough?17:54
mattiLondon?17:54
mattiSouth East?17:54
fionaam i still here18:02
matti:)18:03
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fionaffffff18:15
fionamy neck hurts18:15
fionastupid emacs stop giving me rsi18:15
fionait's great, i can blame emacs for everything great and wrong with my life18:16
zeth"me too" means fiona is elected chairperson of Python North West18:26
zeth;)18:26
zethI use emacs18:27
zethit is my dodgy typing that annoys my wrists18:27
zethand doing work from bed18:27
fionai have a shit chair at work18:28
fionai have a frikken awesome chair at home18:28
fionai want to work from home18:28
fionahalf an hour till no work work18:57
fionano more work*18:57
fionareally burned out today18:57
zethI know how you feel19:03
zeth]/win 1019:03
fionaI'm off. See you tomorrow or Sunday.19:15
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fuzzymanzeth: is python.me.uk you?20:49
fuzzymanvery nice anywya20:49
fuzzyman*anyway20:49
zethyeah20:52
zethit was more a few days ago20:52
zethit was a few years ago20:52
zethI made it during PyConUK 200720:53
zethThe idea was that I would get someone to front each group20:54
zethand give them all a login20:54
zethI did most of the technical stuff20:54
zethbut then never got any further to due general business20:54
zethObviously I would make a site today that looks better20:54
fuzzymanLooks good to me21:05
fuzzymanyou should publicise it21:05
fuzzymanhow many more folk have we had register in the last few days?21:05
zethquite a lot21:06
zeththe hotel is full, so looks like you are in the etap21:06
fuzzymanI think the publicity on BoingBoing got us quite a few of those.21:06
fuzzymanI know :-(21:06
zethI think when we get the final figure it might be double last year's21:07
fuzzymangreat21:07
zethIf this number keeps up next year, we will be able to book the town hall, which is really beautiful21:07
fuzzymanPyCon US got caught out by that21:09
fuzzymanthey book a bigger venue for 2009 based on 2008 visitor numbers21:09
fuzzymancost them quite a lot21:09
fuzzymandon't we have to make a decision about venue well before we start taking registrations?21:10
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zethWell I think the last minute registrations are because people are disorganised21:19
zethI take your point21:20
zethand it more expensive per head, the more heads we have21:21
zethwhich is counter-intitutive21:21
zethand the organisational overhead increases more per head21:21
zethIdeally we would just open bookings for 2 days, and then build the conference based on that.21:21
zethBut we would be unpopular21:21
zethhaving this fantastic conference that no one can go to21:22
fuzzymanno-one?21:22
fuzzymanhyperbole much... :-)21:22
zethwell the x people that booked in the time period21:22
fuzzymanwe need to work out the financial risk21:22
zethwell maybe we should try to do an event that way21:22
fuzzymanoh21:23
zethopen bookings, close them, and then we can price all the things21:23
fuzzymanI see21:23
fuzzymanif we just had booking open for two days21:23
fuzzymanha21:23
zethif you opened bookings and closed them, it would be great organisationally21:23
zethand you would have a fixed budget21:23
zethand you don't have to scale anything up or down21:23
zeththat is where the problems come, hacking the last minute problems21:23
zethif we could guarenteee that we had 450 people, we would have done things differently21:24
zeththe current setup works ok for 100-50021:24
zethbut if you know the number six months in advance you could be really efficient21:25
zethdo a lot more with the money21:25
zethBit sci-fi maybe21:25
zethI organised a conference in London once21:25
zeththat had so different figures21:25
zeththat it had to be more like that21:25
fuzzymanwe couldn't even consider that for EuroPython21:26
zethbecause the costs were huge per head21:26
fuzzymannice thought it would be21:26
zethwhat london or closing bookings?21:26
zethYep I agree21:26
fuzzymanclosed bookings21:26
zethwe could not do either21:26
zethyep21:26
zethTo do this conference in similar way in London would be double the price21:27
zethbut you would get different delegates maybe21:27
zethso maybe would do it in a different way21:27
zethmore modular21:27
zethpeople only pay for the day they are there type thing21:28
zethless speakers21:28
zethhave 20 speakers on rotation ;)21:28
zethBut that is no fun21:28
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fuzzyman20 speakers on rotation??21:29
fuzzymanodd21:29
fuzzymanbeing able to pay for individual days would be good - and quite normal for tech conference21:29
moreatiAnybody have a couple of minutes and a webcam that works with Skype?21:30
fuzzymanmaybe21:30
fuzzymannot tried my webcam with skype but should work21:30
fuzzymanhave to prop it up to point it in the right directio21:30
fuzzyman*direction21:30
fuzzymandon't use my webcam much21:30
fuzzymanZeth might be a better bet21:31
zethI have a webcam21:31
fuzzymanah21:31
zethBut have not done my hair ;)21:31
fuzzymanbut Zeth uses Linux21:31
moreatizeth: what's you skype name?21:31
fuzzyman;-)21:31
zethzeth followed by my last name21:31
fuzzymangood luck with the drivers21:31
zethhould change it21:31
zethfuzzyman: Skype make their own Linux client21:31
fuzzymanhehe21:31
zethfuzzyman: just burn twitter to CD ;)21:32
fuzzymanactually my webcam doesn't have a Mac driver provided by the manufacturer21:32
fuzzymanbut their is an open source one that works21:32
zethI have macbook pro running Ubuntu21:32
fuzzymanheh21:32
fuzzymannice hardware21:32
zethI couldn't see you or hear you21:35
moreatiyes21:35
moreatihang on21:36
moreatiyes i can hear you21:37
zethI can't hear you21:37
zethbut I can see you21:37
zethI cannot hear you21:38
zethI could for a sec, but you went21:38
zethI try the test to be sure21:38
zethI do the skype call test, but I am pretty sure it is not my computer21:39
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zethcool21:40
zethfuzzyman: macbook pro is okay21:40
zethbut wifi card in it is weak21:40
zethmuch weaker than my thinkpad21:41
zethI like the metal though21:41
fuzzymanfair enough21:41
moreatidid test call, could hear but bearly. Time to pop down the shops and get a microphone.21:41
fuzzymanI had a thinkpad briefly21:41
fuzzymanit was old - but very nice bit of kit21:41
zethhopefully I get a new one if we get research grants for 200921:41
fuzzymannot as good looking as the Mac - but nice21:41
zethwell macs are a bit flakey21:44
zethif we get over the manufactoring defects21:44
zethor get a good one21:44
zeththen the higher end ones are good21:44
zeththey go on and on after that21:44
fuzzymanwell I have quite a good one I guess - so not found any manufacturing defects or flakiness21:45
fuzzymanalthough my wife has a standard Macbook - plastic shell21:45
fuzzymanthat seems very nice as well21:45
fuzzymanalthough I guess the wireless could be better :-)21:45
zethat uni they buy them in units of 2021:47
zethand there are always duds21:48
fuzzymanmy guess is that if you bought thinkpads in batches of 20 you'd have duds too21:48
zethpossibly21:50
zethuniversity buys sony vaios in batches of 50021:50
zethno idea what the failure rate is21:50
zeththere are only a handful of laptop factories in the world21:50
zethmacbooks are made by ASUS21:51
zethI think lenovo do make their own though21:51
zeththough I could be wrong21:51
zethit uses all the old IBM plants21:52
zethI am trying to buy locally at the moment21:54
zethso maybe I should look into an ARM machine21:54
zethsince that is probably as local as you can get21:55
zethsomething at least21:55
moreatibugger, this mic I bought has a 2.5mm jack21:59
* moreati ponders some soldering21:59
zethI think I might have a big jack to small jack22:04
zethor it might be the other way around22:04
moreatiwelll that make no sense, the mic has 4 conductors22:09
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ThomasWaldmannmoin :)22:14
fuzzymanhttp://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/06/ironpython-in-action-and-decline-of.html22:17
fuzzymanGuido reviews IronPython in Action22:17
aa_fuzzyman: "what guido said" /hide22:45
fuzzymanaa_: heh22:46
fuzzymanis Windows Forms that much worse than GTK?22:46
aa_fuzzyman: gtk's one merit is its API22:46
fuzzymanI've used other GUI libraries and they were just as annoying22:46
fuzzymanright22:46
fuzzymanfair enough22:46
aa_it is genuinely a pleasure22:46
aa_it's f*ing broken on most levels when you look at it, so can't claim its perfect22:47
aa_but API, they got it22:47
moreatiI thought gtk was the API whipping boy, Qt was the creme.22:47
ronnysup22:47
aa_moreati: Qt is la creme de la turd of an API22:47
aa_hey ronny22:47
aa_and in the very near future all gtk bindings will be introspected live22:48
aa_how sick is that :)22:48
moreatifuzzyman: does windows forms use absolute position, a la VB 6, or is more like GTK/Qt's springs and resizing containers?22:48
aa_people already writing gtk apps in javascript22:48
fuzzymanyou can do it either way22:48
fuzzymanyou don't have to use absolute positioning22:49
fuzzymanso I thought that comment was a bit odd22:49
aa_fuzzyman: in general your sentiment is correct though, windows forms isn't generally better or worse than anything else (imo)22:49
fuzzymanright22:49
aa_the real gtk nerds always find me at conferences anyway, I love it22:50
aa_"having trouble left-padding some blah blah"22:50
zeth"Seeing a book like IronPython in Action, by Michael Foord and Christian Muirhead, is another milestone for IronPython. This is a solid work in every aspect, and something nobody using IronPython on .NET should be without. The book is chock full of useful information, presented along with a series of running examples, and covers almost every aspect of IronPython use imaginable."22:50
zethThat is the bit you put on the cover22:51
fuzzymanit's a bit late to put things on the cover...22:51
fuzzyman:-)22:51
zethon the website then22:51
aa_I would go for "It's no wonder that users are switching to the web as the platform for everything that used to live on the desktop -- with all its flaws (which I will discuss another time), web development still feels like a breeze compared to Windows development."22:51
zethOr in the second edition22:51
zeth"Praise for the first edition" .... "Guido Van Rossum, creator of Python"22:52
fuzzymanhehe22:54
fuzzymanyeah - it's certainly nice praise for the book22:54
fuzzymanI quite like the review - it's fun to read22:54
ronnyaa_: i just arrived in bochum, now i need to figure how to get to the airport tomorow morning22:56
zethWell I personally use the web as the platform for everything23:01
ThomasWaldmannbtw, will there be some water provided at the conference / sprints?23:04
* ThomasWaldmann remembers that slightly scarce water supply in vilnius23:05
zethget yourself a flask23:15
zethor an army style water bottle23:15
zethlast UK conference we spent 3000 or something stupid on mineral water23:15
zethI hope this time they put out jugs of normal water23:15
zethThomasWaldmann: everything wqas a bit scarce in vilnius23:16
zethThomasWaldmann: everything was a bit scarce in vilnius23:16
moreatibut whatever you do, don't drink the Birmingham water from the taps if it comes out with a burnt umber colour23:16
zeth?23:16
zethWater from Bham is far better than where I come from23:16
zethBham water is taken in an aquaduct from wales23:17
moreatiwater from birmingham comes from Wales23:17
zethwhat is the burnt umber?23:18
ThomasWaldmannzeth: yeah, but my builtin water reserve depletes faster than the other reserves :D23:18
moreatiI haven't seen any, but it probably wouldn't be good for you23:19
fuzzymanzeth: I don't find HTML / CSS / Javascript less annoying than any UI toolkit.23:19
fuzzymanQuite the opposite...23:19
moreatihttp://b3ta.com/board/954664923:21
zethwell django23:23
zethis not so pythonic as we know it23:23
zethbut once you get used to it23:23
zeththen things become easy23:23
zethand you don't have to package a website23:23
zethor get it to work on people's systems23:23
fuzzymanright - but packaging / deployment issues is very different from saying GUI programming sucks23:28
fuzzymanand at least when GUI programming you only target one front end - instead of 6 different browsers...23:28
moreaticross browser compatibility is the web equivalent of deploye23:28
moreatideployment issues23:28
fuzzymanyeah - so not much better23:29
fuzzymanIMHO23:29
fuzzymanor IMNSHO23:29
aa_ronny: wher eis bochum?23:34
zethwell it depends how simple your app is23:35
zeththe majority of applications are very simple23:35
zeththat is why Windows beats Linux23:35
zethbecause you can knock out a visual basic app23:35
zethjust by dragging and dropping a few forms23:36
aa_zeth: you can do that too with most gui frameworks23:36
aa_(but you have to know what you are doing I guess)23:37
zethyep and I don't23:37
zethmaybe I sit in on your tutorial ;)23:37
aa_zeth: good idea, if you are suffering from insomnia23:37
zethdon't be so modest23:37
zethI have not even had time to think about tutorials yet23:37
zeththe last couple of years I made one tutorial23:38
zethsince I was organising23:38
zethbut the good thing about the tutorials is that we have the world setup and mostly done before the rest of the horde arrive23:38
zethThis time I try to do better23:38
zethI quite like the idea of the Pyjamas23:39
zethbut that is a bit overfull already23:39
zethand Pyjamas is all day23:39
zethand I want to go to code clinic23:40
zethDavid Jones is always fun on a stick23:40
zetha conservatively dressed stick with glasses23:40

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