| *** povbot has joined #europython | 20:42 | |
| lenscape | paypal is easier to setup than many | 20:42 |
|---|---|---|
| dougn | but it took lots of planning and very complicated software and a dedicated 'Reg Man' to mange it all | 20:42 |
| dougn | This is due to PayFlowLink (which is not paypal really) | 20:43 |
| lac | last time I used paypal, in dec, for a different conference, more than 10% of the users who used it had problems. | 20:43 |
| dougn | I can only hope their other services are better | 20:43 |
| pinner | let's not get into the detail of PayPal: in our proposal we use a shopping cart which looks after those links anyway. | 20:43 |
| lac | It did not work with firefox very well. So I am all for finding a better solution. | 20:43 |
| lac | pinner: did your shopping cart work last year? without problems? | 20:44 |
| pinner | PayPal is just one of several options available to us when we adopt that route | 20:44 |
| dougn | pinner: that was our solution. a custom shopping cart ot manage things... | 20:44 |
| lenscape | lac: much as I dislike paypal, I've never heard of Firefox causing it problems | 20:44 |
| wimbou | byebye all! | 20:44 |
| lac | lenscape: I can send you the bug reports later. | 20:44 |
| pinner | lac, the cart worked fine | 20:44 |
| *** wimbou has left #europython | 20:44 | |
| lenscape | lac: maybe it wasn't being programmed/interfaced properly | 20:44 |
| dougn | pinner: paypal has changed things sence Oct. which are messing up 30% of the carts out there (Silent POST and Force Silent POST are broken) | 20:45 |
| lac | lenscape: no, actually, when we contacted paypal they said that this was a bug on their part and they couldn't know when they would fix it. | 20:45 |
| lenscape | lac: ! ok. We never had any trouble with it | 20:45 |
| lac | this was my experience in dec, too. force silent Post was completely broken. | 20:45 |
| lac | and its not fixed now. | 20:45 |
| lac | Ok. | 20:46 |
| pinner | dougn: we're using PayPal from our cart for another conference just now, no problems so far | 20:46 |
| lac | but PyCon is seeing problems, correct? | 20:46 |
| dougn | pinner: cool. not everyone is effected. testing should keep you safe. | 20:46 |
| *** mgedmin changes topic to "EuroPython 2008 - import this | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/europython-irclog/" | 20:46 | |
| lac | I mean pycon US | 20:46 |
| dougn | PyCon US is special... (as in short buss special)... | 20:46 |
| lac | thanks mgedmin | 20:47 |
| xorAxAx | paypal also had issues with not giving you money a few years ago (but i think that should be fixed nowadays) | 20:47 |
| dougn | we are having problems but we are prepared for them. If you are running with up to date everything (including an up to date account) you should eb fine. | 20:47 |
| lac | I am still fighitng them with our europython money. Seems we made too much last year and there is | 20:47 |
| lac | bureacracy abotu gettting the cash out, which Dario has been too ill and busy too do. I will move on this tomorrow, I had forgotten | 20:48 |
| lac | Ok, now when we were in Gbg, we used Worldpay to handle accounts. And it worked perfectly fine. | 20:48 |
| lac | how hard would it be to change the shopping cart to handle a different service? | 20:49 |
| lac | Am I making way too much work for people just because I am anxious? | 20:49 |
| zeth | In the short term or long term? | 20:49 |
| lac | both, either | 20:49 |
| zeth | I think they are different issues, in that in the short term we need a shopping cart | 20:50 |
| lenscape | lac: depends on the service. Barclays, for example is an utter nightmare to setup | 20:50 |
| dougn | lac: if pinner has a solution which is working, I would go with it. keep it tested and make sure your paypal account is not one that was created by Verisign or a paypal reseller as those are the ones having problems. | 20:50 |
| pinner | lac, it's very easy to change, and it handles Worldpay as well | 20:50 |
| lac | Ok, I will investigate getting us a worldpay account and report back to the list. then we can decide if to go with it. | 20:50 |
| lac | Ok plan? | 20:50 |
| pinner | OK | 20:51 |
| zeth | dougn +1. In the long run, we might want to do a non-shopping cat approach, but not enough time for Europython this year | 20:51 |
| * mgedmin thinks about shopping kittens | 20:51 | |
| lac | Any more business about booking? | 20:52 |
| pinner | I assume that we want the cart in Euros? | 20:52 |
| Aiste | yes, I would think euros | 20:52 |
| pboddie | I think Euros are fine. I guess we'll be dropping the bank transfer mode of payment, too. | 20:52 |
| lac | It helps, a lot, if people can get an automatic conversion to their own currency | 20:52 |
| lac | we are definitely not dropping the bank transfer mode of payment | 20:52 |
| lac | because one heck of a lot of people I know can only pay that way. | 20:53 |
| Aiste | yes indeed | 20:53 |
| Aiste | I would be very upset if there were no bank transfers possible | 20:53 |
| xorAxAx | worldpay needs a CC? | 20:53 |
| lac | xorAxAx: did the last time I checked, but that was years ago | 20:53 |
| mattbull | according to their website yes.. | 20:54 |
| mattbull | how where the bank transfers handled last time?? | 20:55 |
| lac | The wire transfers, assuming we keep the bank account in Sweden, though there are reasons to consider moving it, will just mean more work for me. | 20:55 |
| pinner | wir | 20:55 |
| lac | mattbull: they showed up in the Europython bank account which is, non-coincidentally, at my bank here in Sweden | 20:55 |
| lac | Samuele and I have access to it. | 20:56 |
| pedronis | you need an interface or way to record people who have payed as such | 20:56 |
| lac | (So did Dario, but he resigned as treasurer of the EP society) | 20:56 |
| pinner | we can put a bank transfer option on the cart, then after registering they'll just get instructions as to what to do. | 20:56 |
| zeth | pinner I assume the bank transfer would work like a cheque? | 20:56 |
| zeth | you are there already! | 20:56 |
| pinner | the cart will record them as paying by bank transfer | 20:56 |
| lac | All I need is a way to get a list of the people who said they would pay by xfer. | 20:57 |
| pinner | and we report that in the delegate lists for reconciliation | 20:57 |
| lac | then I can check that they have actually paid, and didn't just promise to and hten forget. | 20:57 |
| kitblake | paying by xfer is easy for companies sending multiple people | 20:57 |
| pinner | and you mark them as having paid in the cart sales manager | 20:57 |
| lac | actually, the worse problem is people that pay twice. Which reminds me, I owe fabio plager, who did that, money. | 20:57 |
| mattbull | ok well we can look at that offline and discuss on list, yes | 20:58 |
| pinner | yes | 20:58 |
| xorAxAx | kitblake: not in the US i assume :) | 20:58 |
| kitblake | xorAxAx: well, it's possible, but not easy :) | 20:58 |
| lac | Ok, that reminds me. Do we have an option to pay by cheque? | 20:59 |
| lac | That is the one I would rather disable, because Sweden is a checkless country. | 20:59 |
| pinner | yes, or any other method you can invent and configure | 20:59 |
| lac | and you wouldn't believe the hassle or the cost involved in trying to get one into your account! | 20:59 |
| Aiste | oh, yes, same here | 20:59 |
| zeth | England still runs on checks quite a lot | 21:00 |
| lac | So, unless we move the bank account and get a different acting treasurer, I would prefer not to have a cheque option. | 21:00 |
| lac | because the brits have learned how to make wire transfers. :-) | 21:00 |
| zeth | however, to be honest any English person would probably need a credit card to book a flight | 21:00 |
| pinner | you can have whatever options you wish, you don't have to have cheques | 21:00 |
| lac | ok. great. | 21:01 |
| lac | any more booking questions? | 21:01 |
| pinner | how many people wanted to pay by cheque last year? | 21:01 |
| lac | 0 | 21:01 |
| Aiste | great :) | 21:01 |
| pinner | no cheques then | 21:01 |
| lac | but it was not an option. | 21:01 |
| Aiste | question solved :) | 21:01 |
| pinner | hopefully we'll get more czechs though | 21:01 |
| pinner | sorry | 21:01 |
| lac | :-) | 21:02 |
| pedronis | eh | 21:02 |
| zeth | terrible.... | 21:02 |
| Aiste | :D | 21:02 |
| lac | Ok. now the biggie. Talks. (though there is another biggie, Sponsors, but I think not this meeting, we have enough on our plate) | 21:03 |
| lac | I think we can divide the talk stuff into two big heaps. | 21:03 |
| lac | Stuff for submitting talks and getting them in such a way that the talk selectors can read them. | 21:03 |
| lac | and b) stuff for evaluating and ranking talks and the like. | 21:04 |
| pinner | the schedule is important as well | 21:04 |
| lac | I think that b) is something that we have always done in an ad-hoc fashion, and have liked the results. | 21:04 |
| lac | (except that I didn't like making all the cards up last year and playing with them on my dining room table) | 21:04 |
| lac | the indico thing for finding the talks to read them I thought worked very poorly. | 21:05 |
| lac | And I think that anybody on the talk selection committee needs to commit to reading all the abstracts. | 21:05 |
| pinner | well, we did it on cars for PyCon UK, before doing the first cut schedule in Doug's system | 21:05 |
| lac | Do others agree with my accessment? | 21:05 |
| pinner | cards, not cars | 21:06 |
| * lenscape was trying to work out how cars would work | 21:06 | |
| pboddie | My position on this is that the people volunteering for talk proposal review and scheduling should just all agree on their set of tools and implement/introduce what they feel comfortable with. | 21:06 |
| *** moreati has joined #europython | 21:06 | |
| Aiste | +1 to that | 21:06 |
| pinner | hello alex | 21:06 |
| lac | I liked the talks at PyCON UK a lot. Maybe paper cards help you get good scheduling, though the connection is not obvious to me. | 21:07 |
| zeth | hi moreati | 21:07 |
| pinner | alex looked after Pycon UK talks | 21:07 |
| moreati | hi, sorry I'm late, forgot | 21:07 |
| lac | +1 to pboddie's proposal | 21:07 |
| pboddie | That's why the idea of separating the different Web-based stuff out - public site, registration, proposals - is a great one. | 21:07 |
| pboddie | Loosely coupled components and all that. | 21:07 |
| lac | Ok. we are now 5 minutes over the hour I wanted to spend. | 21:07 |
| Aiste | same here - I've got torun | 21:08 |
| Aiste | my cat is already complaining about working late :) | 21:08 |
| pinner | at the lowest level you can do it with email and manual html | 21:08 |
| lac | Any objections if I bring down the gavel, leaving people free, as always to continue discussing stuff? | 21:08 |
| pinner | but Dougs | 21:08 |
| kitblake | no objs | 21:08 |
| pinner | system has the benefit of existing | 21:08 |
| zeth | pboddie the idea of letting the volunteers decide the tools is a nice idea but we don't have time to make new fancy software for that | 21:08 |
| dougn | pinner: let them have cake :-) | 21:08 |
| Aiste | nope, not from me | 21:08 |
| mattbull | gotta run too.... | 21:09 |
| pinner | lac, ok for gavel | 21:09 |
| lac | zeth: we can limit it to exiting software | 21:09 |
| dougn | e-mail and wiki's for proposals work great | 21:09 |
| lac | existing | 21:09 |
| zeth | lac good, I'm all for cards and emails etc anyway | 21:09 |
| pboddie | It's Hobson's choice, really, but Doug's nice cake, erm, system should be good enough. Either way, I'm happy to let people discuss that amongst themselves and stay out of it myself. | 21:09 |
| lac | Ok, did the doodle work for everybody but bea for seting the next meeting? | 21:09 |
| pinner | doodle was ok | 21:09 |
| kitblake | yes | 21:10 |
| lac | and shoudl we have one in 1 week? | 21:10 |
| pboddie | Just send the link to the list. In one week is fine provided that Aiste can confirm the venue. | 21:10 |
| pinner | keep the momentum going | 21:10 |
| lac | yes, if its not confirmed we need an emergency panic | 21:10 |
| mattbull | mondays are difficult for me any chance of next thurs?? | 21:10 |
| lac | Mondays are impossibel for Bea as well | 21:11 |
| Aiste | thursday works better for me as well | 21:11 |
| Aiste | latish though... it is 21.00 here already | 21:11 |
| lac | so thursday is looking great as a usual time. | 21:11 |
| lac | But I have concerts some thursdays. | 21:11 |
| moreati | thurs is good for me | 21:11 |
| zeth | i am on irc 24/7 I don't mind | 21:11 |
| lac | I have them some fridays and tuesdays and wednesdays too, that's the poroiblem wiuth seasins tickets | 21:11 |
| lac | Ok, | 21:11 |
| lac | BANG BANG BANG | 21:12 |
| lac | official meeting over | 21:12 |
| pboddie | Let's put it to the vote, but say that Thursdays are the new Monday. ;-) | 21:12 |
| kitblake | thx | 21:12 |
| *** mgedmin changes topic to "EuroPython 2008 - import this | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/europython-irclog/ | mailing list at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/" | 21:12 | |
| lac | I will post a new doodle address, but Thursdays are looking excellent all around. | 21:12 |
| pinner | I may have a problem with some Thursdays, next week is OK though | 21:12 |
| mattbull | bye all. | 21:12 |
| dboddie_work | OK. Time to go. See you all! | 21:13 |
| lenscape | I can't do Thursdays either but as I don't have role (yet), it probably isn't important | 21:13 |
| *** mattbull has left #europython | 21:13 | |
| pedronis | sorry to been harsh on pycon us software but it seemed from an outsider point of view geared towared letting people read and vote on a subset of all abstracts without tracking, which resemble summer of code first iteration at a proposal reviewing application. Given that we will not recruit a large numbe of voluterrs to do reviewing this may not be a problem | 21:13 |
| dougn | pedronis: you know nothing of the software | 21:13 |
| dougn | pedronis: or what happened | 21:13 |
| lenscape | pinner: pm? | 21:13 |
| dougn | pedronis: that is what I menat when I said it was 'closed' | 21:13 |
| pboddie | pedronis: Is it the software, the process or the result that you're unhappy with? | 21:14 |
| lac | eee. I cannot kmake the 7th. | 21:14 |
| pedronis | dougn: I used it as a submitter | 21:14 |
| *** rwall has joined #europython | 21:14 | |
| dougn | the community didnt get to see what was going on | 21:14 |
| pedronis | that's a bug | 21:14 |
| dougn | and that was very bad in the ned | 21:14 |
| pedronis | because I got a very bad impression | 21:14 |
| pedronis | out of it | 21:14 |
| pinner | lenscape: evening commitments 2x a month | 21:14 |
| zeth | lenscape - i think you could take a roll and get on with it | 21:15 |
| dougn | the problem was we had 21 reviewers for 101 proposals for 07. for 08 we has 11 reviewers (mostly new) and 140+ proposals. We could only accept 68 | 21:15 |
| * lenscape thinks John misunderstood | 21:15 | |
| zeth | I think you could communicate via list | 21:15 |
| dougn | We asked some very prominent people to help out with review.. some said yes | 21:16 |
| dougn | they ALL backed out | 21:16 |
| dougn | we were scrambling | 21:16 |
| pedronis | dougn: well pycon us as a problem, as a submitter building mental pmodels | 21:16 |
| dougn | we did the best we could | 21:16 |
| pedronis | of what is going on this reflects badly on the software | 21:16 |
| zeth | dougn maybe you need more rooms? | 21:16 |
| pedronis | it may no be a issue of the software but it can look like one | 21:16 |
| dougn | zeth: we added a 4th track to accomidate. we have too many talks in my opinion | 21:16 |
| zeth | perhaps you need more regional conferences? | 21:17 |
| pedronis | because summer of code had similar problems that they addreesed | 21:17 |
| pedronis | partly | 21:17 |
| pedronis | with changing the code to impose more structure | 21:17 |
| dougn | The software can do everything in the open | 21:17 |
| pedronis | on the reviewing and voting | 21:17 |
| dougn | or it can be stricter | 21:17 |
| dougn | the issue is no one wanted to help out.. and we made multiple appeals | 21:17 |
| dougn | blogged, etc | 21:17 |
| zeth | In the UK, we could accept everything that seemed decent and thought out | 21:17 |
| dougn | recruted | 21:18 |
| zeth | so it seemed to work ok | 21:18 |
| dougn | I noticed you didnt offer help | 21:18 |
| dougn | not much a volunteer conference can do without volunteers | 21:18 |
| dougn | no software can help that | 21:18 |
| dougn | and 4 peole can deal with 140 proposals | 21:19 |
| pinner | dougn: getting people to actually do anything, even after they've volunteered is always a problem | 21:19 |
| lenscape | I need to join the list. Where is subscription? | 21:19 |
| pboddie | http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython | 21:19 |
| lenscape | pboddie: cheers | 21:19 |
| zeth | what is the difference between? http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve | 21:19 |
| pedronis | dougn: well but getting not enough people not doing enough work is worse than nothing | 21:19 |
| dougn | err... and 4 people cant deal with 140 peoposals :-) | 21:20 |
| pinner | pboddie: you mean europython-improve, methinks | 21:20 |
| dougn | pedronis: guess what.. thats what happened. | 21:20 |
| dougn | pedronis: and hated the result | 21:20 |
| pboddie | pinner, zeth, lenscape: Yes, Zeth's link is the one. | 21:20 |
| dougn | cant please everyone | 21:20 |
| pedronis | dougn: well, pycon us neeed to think about its size, because the program is central aspect of a conference, unless they want ot be just a gathering | 21:21 |
| pinner | zeth: improve is the list for improving EP, like now, europython is for the whole EP community | 21:21 |
| zeth | cool | 21:21 |
| pboddie | My concern about the talks is not the reviewing - because I'm staying out of that ;-) - but just getting enough good talks. | 21:21 |
| zeth | I think PyconUS is such a different scale that it is not relevant | 21:21 |
| dougn | pedronis: at an unconference the talks are 30% of the conference... and so it is with pycon | 21:21 |
| zeth | we hsould not discuss that | 21:21 |
| zeth | PyconTech has the features we will need here | 21:22 |
| dougn | On the features aspect. I am trying to make thing better and keep them pycon agnostic.. .but I have failed (done better than last year) | 21:22 |
| dougn | all the hard coded urls are removed | 21:22 |
| lac | zeth: Europython has more or less all the attendees, and if we want to have a detailed tech discussion, some of them get annoyed, | 21:23 |
| dougn | 90% of the 'PyCon' stuff is removed and replaced with config. | 21:23 |
| lac | so I made ep-improve for people who wanted to make changes and improve things. | 21:23 |
| pinner | I'm going to suggest getting the talks together by email etc, then one or two people getting them into PyCon-tech in a consistent way | 21:23 |
| pinner | dougn: oh good!, alex are you listening? | 21:23 |
| zeth | pingL moreati | 21:23 |
| moreati | yup, very good to hear | 21:23 |
| dougn | I tossed all teh PHP crap out the window (finally) | 21:24 |
| moreati | yippee | 21:24 |
| pinner | once they're into PyCon-Tech, then review and we have a schedule | 21:24 |
| dougn | I split the 'website' part into its own directory... but we are now relyant on it... | 21:24 |
| zeth | lac sorry I don't understand that last one | 21:24 |
| pinner | if the speakers don't like the text they supplied they can edit it | 21:24 |
| dougn | The schedule stuff is going under a knife now... | 21:25 |
| xorAxAx | congrats for the php code removal :) | 21:25 |
| dougn | toss the Zope stuff, etc. | 21:25 |
| lac | zeth: what is the difference between Ep and ep-improve? ep is a really big list of all people who have ever attended EP. | 21:25 |
| pedronis | dougn: I never was on any list where they asked help to review pycon us stuff, also honestly I think I would have been more frustrated than helpful given the situation | 21:25 |
| lac | we try to keep it low volume. | 21:25 |
| pboddie | zeth: I think lac means that the main EuroPython list is just for people who want to go to EP, while the improve list is for people who want to get their hands dirty with the infrastructure. | 21:25 |
| lac | But its good for announcements, hey does anybody know how to do this? and hte like | 21:25 |
| dougn | pedronis: there was lots of frustration :-) | 21:26 |
| zeth | lac ah okay I get that | 21:26 |
| * mgedmin tries to remember if he's subscribed to ep-improve or not | 21:26 | |
| lac | zeth: but for online back and forth, ep-improve is what I made to discuss making changes to ep | 21:26 |
| zeth | I joined ep-improve only at the moment | 21:26 |
| pboddie | I wrote this up here: http://europython.pyconuk.org/community/Mailing_Lists | 21:26 |
| lac | so now more tech discussions happen there, though not as many as I would like. | 21:26 |
| dougn | My long term plan is to have PyCon-Tech be a framework. take only what you want... | 21:26 |
| pinner | I'm going to have to leave soon, do you have anything else for me? | 21:27 |
| dougn | the proposal system is nice, but you can have a schedule with out proposals, etc. | 21:27 |
| pedronis | my experience (summer of code) is that setting up reviewing by groups of volunteers is a hard job, both finding the people but also organizing work to get a good and fair "coverage" of what was submitted | 21:27 |
| lac | pinner: no, I already have more than enough, and am very grateful. | 21:27 |
| pboddie | dougn: What do you think of the Wiki? A worthwhile exercise? | 21:27 |
| dougn | pboddie: hell yes. | 21:27 |
| pinner | Oh, who is managing europython.org DNS? | 21:27 |
| dougn | pboddie: it is hte easiest way to get people to generate content | 21:28 |
| pedronis | ep so far has worked by having a small group of people doing all the reviewing, given our number of submission this has worked so far | 21:28 |
| pboddie | dougn: :-) | 21:28 |
| pinner | so I can tell them where to point ie | 21:28 |
| pinner | sorry, point it when the time comes | 21:28 |
| lac | I keep forgetting the person's name. he's vlad here on irc | 21:28 |
| dougn | pboddie: note: it doesnt meant they will generate it. we found that putting SOMETHING on a page even if it was a few sentences was better than a request for someone ot add content | 21:28 |
| moreati | Thomas Reulbach? | 21:29 |
| pboddie | dougn: Does the PyCon Tech Wiki have a RecentChanges page? Couldn't see anything like it as an anonymous user. | 21:29 |
| dougn | we have the recent changes open to anon actually... | 21:29 |
| lac | moreati no. | 21:29 |
| dougn | so people can use google rss reader for it | 21:29 |
| moreati | too easy | 21:29 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: What do you think of the styling? Or have I gone too far? ;-) | 21:29 |
| dougn | http://us.pycon.org/2008/recent/ | 21:30 |
| pinner | pboddie: how about using the new logo someone proposed a while back? | 21:30 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: no, looks nice, esp. given that you retained some i18n features and didnt throw out _() everywhere like a lot of people do | 21:30 |
| pboddie | pinner: I thought that was a draft. | 21:31 |
| zeth | I think it looks nice, (I hate the default moinmoin) | 21:31 |
| lenscape | europython could do with a new logo... maybe | 21:31 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: style wise i was a bit confused by the grey background i think, i dont know why | 21:31 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: Oh, _() being the gettext thing. I tried not to tread on too much, and I slavishly copied as much previous theme code as I could find. ;-) | 21:31 |
| pinner | pboddie: it was a draft, but the idea looked good to me, at least | 21:31 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: usually you would use class inheritance :) | 21:32 |
| lac | Ok gang, I am off to cook dinner | 21:32 |
| zeth | It looks like lugradio is July 19/20th | 21:32 |
| dougn | pinner: I recently updated the navbar stuff... the sample site you sent the link out about looked like it was using it? or is that moinmoin? | 21:32 |
| zeth | it would be nice if I can go to both ;) | 21:32 |
| * pinner thinks it's time to go home... | 21:32 | |
| dougn | :-) | 21:32 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: I wanted the portlet look on the front page and that meant special styles. If I think about it, I could probably suggest a few things which might make this kind of thing easier. | 21:32 |
| lenscape | pinner: are you in the office tomorrow? | 21:32 |
| *** jkk has joined #europython | 21:33 | |
| pinner | lenscape: most of the day, out from 10 to 2ish | 21:33 |
| lenscape | pinner: I'll call you | 21:33 |
| pinner | dougn: pboddie did all the work, he's your man | 21:34 |
| pinner | lenscape: ok | 21:34 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: you mean chaning the theme API? :) | 21:34 |
| pboddie | I'll make the theme available so that people can have a look and hack away. | 21:34 |
| * pinner is signing out, Good Evening All | 21:34 | |
| *** pinner has quit IRC | 21:35 | |
| lenscape | pinner: bye | 21:35 |
| pedronis | I don't think a have much more grumpy of constructive stuff to say | 21:35 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: Probably. Not in MoinMoin mode right now. ;-) But I did have to browse a few files to see what was going on in various places before working out that I wouldn't need to change the core code. | 21:35 |
| pedronis | bye people | 21:36 |
| zeth | bye | 21:36 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: ah, well, creation of themes is documented, the API is ugly and making it nicer (e.g. template based) is not easy as in still being valid for the old processing model | 21:37 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: I don't think it's that bad, really, and the API is quite powerful. The problem is that you have to find out how to use it, and perhaps the best places to look are in the code where you see what you need already being done. | 21:39 |
| pboddie | Anyway, I'll upload the theme code somewhere and post a link. | 21:40 |
| lenscape | has a new EP logo been considered this year? | 21:40 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: if you want other people to reuse it, MoinMoin:ThemeMarket might be the best choice | 21:40 |
| mgedmin | ah, apparently I wasn't subscribed to ep-improve | 21:40 |
| lenscape | I only ask becuase I was thinking about getting shirts made up | 21:40 |
| mgedmin | which explains why I didn't get the email with the final meeting date and time | 21:40 |
| pboddie | xorAxAx: Yes, I saw that while looking for inspiration. I only tried one or two themes, but most of them seemed quite conservative. | 21:41 |
| lac | lenscape: a new logo would be ok, as the last logo maker is busy now. Submit ideas to ep, not ep-improve, and we can have a vote. | 21:41 |
| lenscape | lac: ok | 21:41 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: yep | 21:42 |
| xorAxAx | pboddie: not creative enough | 21:42 |
| xorAxAx | in terms of reordering the layout while remaining usable | 21:42 |
| dougn | pedronis: NOTE: you do not need to use the proposal system to use the schedule system. I am not sure pinner is aware of this. | 21:43 |
| pedronis | dougn: ok, my problem was mostly with the anonymous reviewer comments | 21:45 |
| pedronis | and some probably misleaded assumptions on the ranking process | 21:45 |
| dougn | pedronis: ah.. well that is a stupid setting I never wanted in the system in the first place | 21:45 |
| pedronis | well, I can see why they want it that way given their approach | 21:46 |
| dougn | we didnt get enough proposal comments either. | 21:46 |
| dougn | each proposal that is not all +1 should get a comment to the submitter on how to make it better. That didn't happen this year | 21:47 |
| pedronis | well, my impression is that indeed there was I would say a "coverage" problem | 21:48 |
| dougn | in the end we had 11 people to do a minimum of 450+ reviews | 21:48 |
| dougn | and that doesnt count comments.. there used to be more comments than review | 21:49 |
| dougn | s | 21:49 |
| dougn | but that was back when we had 60 proposals | 21:49 |
| dougn | and 21 reviewers | 21:49 |
| dougn | the checks and balances worked than | 21:50 |
| dougn | *then | 21:50 |
| zeth | 450 talk submissions seems like the US conference has expanded beyond the other constraints | 21:50 |
| dougn | there were 140 | 21:51 |
| dougn | each proposal must have at least 3 reviews | 21:51 |
| zeth | oh okay | 21:51 |
| pedronis | I suppose they really need more volunteers or they need a very strict process | 21:51 |
| zeth | that is more reasonable | 21:51 |
| dougn | we have always has a fluid process. Do what wworks best for the reviewers... | 21:52 |
| zeth | success always comes with costs as well I suppose | 21:52 |
| dougn | In the past the reviewers had the final say on the process.... it fell apart under the load, and Aahz and Ivan stepped in and whipped everyone into shape | 21:53 |
| dougn | by that time it was already bast the acceptance anouncement deadline... so we extended things, and then spend two weeks in hell. | 21:53 |
| zeth | yeah, sounds really hard | 21:54 |
| zeth | have their been any proposal to split the US conference? | 21:54 |
| dougn | didn't help that there turned out to be a problem with some of the e-mails being sent, so 4 people didnt recieve the comments. | 21:54 |
| dougn | many | 21:54 |
| zeth | or are they happy with it being uber? | 21:54 |
| dougn | the problem is that requires MORE volunteers, not less | 21:54 |
| dougn | no | 21:54 |
| dougn | lots of discussion going on right now... | 21:55 |
| zeth | well yes, but at least things like PyconTech should hopefully mean that sharing some tasks between conferences | 21:55 |
| zeth | makes things a little easier | 21:55 |
| dougn | we outsourced network and wome other thigns this year. that helped some things, but we do not want to go 'professional' | 21:55 |
| zeth | say if there were Pycon US East and West or something | 21:56 |
| dougn | That was the long term goal.. we just didnt expect to grow soo fast | 21:56 |
| dougn | there were 300 attendees in 05 | 21:56 |
| dougn | (less actually) | 21:56 |
| dougn | we are looking at over 800 this year if the numbers hold... | 21:56 |
| zeth | in the UK, we could handle delegate growth but not if they all want to give talks | 21:57 |
| zeth | our existing venue, which is right in the centre of the UK, can handle quite a bit | 21:57 |
| zeth | 800 is a lot! | 21:58 |
| dougn | Some people are thinking it could top 1K | 21:58 |
| zeth | wowsers | 21:58 |
| dougn | I really hope it doesnt | 21:58 |
| dougn | thats not pycon | 21:58 |
| xorAxAx | python is too popular :) | 21:58 |
| * lac is away: eating dinner | 21:58 | |
| zeth | I think an East and West would be a good idea for that then, to spread things out, one could be winter, one autumn | 21:59 |
| dougn | I think a split would be good, or more regional conferences... I am helping with some of those... | 21:59 |
| dougn | I am hoping Django and some of the other groups will break off like Zope Plone and SciPy have... | 21:59 |
| zeth | sorry one spring, one autumn | 21:59 |
| *** znapper has joined #europython | 21:59 | |
| dougn | its hard. | 22:00 |
| zeth | Well at PyconUK we had not one Zope talk | 22:00 |
| dougn | We have 0 plone this year | 22:00 |
| xorAxAx | is that good or bad? | 22:00 |
| dougn | 2 zope (but one of those is not really zope) | 22:00 |
| dougn | its both good and bad | 22:00 |
| zeth | no idea, but shows that Pylons and Django and Turbogears | 22:01 |
| zeth | have taken centre stage perhaps | 22:01 |
| dougn | it means that we can get in talks about emmerging stuff, and they now have their own conferences | 22:01 |
| dougn | Plone has its own conference | 22:01 |
| dougn | they are advertising at Pycon | 22:01 |
| dougn | I am hoping Django and Tg will go the same way.. grow to the point where they have their own conferences and only have a token presence at PyCon as more up an comming things get focus | 22:02 |
| zeth | well, I'm not sure it will work like that | 22:03 |
| *** znapper has quit IRC | 22:03 | |
| dougn | neither am I | 22:03 |
| zeth | but it would be tody | 22:03 |
| zeth | tidy | 22:03 |
| dougn | All I know is we cant keep growing like this and keep the community fun aspects... | 22:03 |
| dougn | Things like Django.June (a local to me unconference) are gaining speed | 22:04 |
| dougn | I don't see a split happening, but I think local BarCamp type conferences will help | 22:04 |
| zeth | I think the web frameworks are still at the innovation type stage | 22:11 |
| zeth | so things will come in and out of fashion until there is a winner | 22:11 |
| *** lenscape has quit IRC | 22:11 | |
| zeth | then we have the standardisation phase | 22:12 |
| zeth | then we can chuck them out of the conferences! | 22:13 |
| *** lenscape has joined #europython | 22:14 | |
| lac | zeth: the plone people have moved themsleves to theri own conferences already | 22:20 |
| * lac is back | 22:20 | |
| zeth | lac yeah | 22:21 |
| zeth | zope/plone developers don't really need to know much Python anyway | 22:22 |
| zeth | there are so many levels between plone and Python | 22:22 |
| lac | I think that there is way more to python than web frameworjs | 22:22 |
| zeth | you can make websites in plone without Python | 22:22 |
| zeth | lac sure of course | 22:22 |
| zeth | That is the main reason I learned Python | 22:22 |
| *** jkk has quit IRC | 22:23 | |
| zeth | so I could do sys admin, graphical apps, websites, all with one language | 22:23 |
| lac | yes, indeed, when we had a plone website for EP, my problem was that I couldn't program it in python. | 22:23 |
| lac | so many people are making web apps that you need to take care that they don't turn your conference into 'python -- the web app language' | 22:23 |
| lac | missing out on the other stuff. Because, unless you are developing the stuff, writing a web app is | 22:24 |
| lac | just a nice way to make money, indoors, out of the rain, no heavy lifting | 22:25 |
| lac | there is nothing wrong with that, but you could go to a dentistry conference to get the same effect. :-) | 22:25 |
| dougn | dentists make more | 22:25 |
| lac | :-) | 22:25 |
| lac | our company is working on a new web app -- samuele is one of the principal people designing it. | 22:26 |
| zeth | well I think we should have dentists in our conferences if their software is in python | 22:26 |
| lac | and we think that it will be really, really, different and cool. | 22:26 |
| dougn | If I ever become a web developer I think I will go insane... I don't consider the parts of PyCon-Tech that I care about web development :-) | 22:26 |
| lac | python uk had a doctor, developing software .... | 22:26 |
| lac | pycon uk | 22:27 |
| lac | I remember a lightning talk he gave, | 22:27 |
| zeth | oh right cool | 22:27 |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 22:28 | |
| lac | he wants to make it easier for doctors to share xrays, diagnosis, and billing. I forget what else. seemed rather reasonable. | 22:28 |
| lac | also seemed like something that the health care system ought to already have, but then we don't have that here either. | 22:28 |
| lac | so guess you have to start someplace. | 22:28 |
| zeth | I think governmental systems should be distributed | 22:29 |
| zeth | how you do that without chaos I'm not sure | 22:30 |
| zeth | but they manage it with most non-computery things | 22:30 |
| lac | I think the chaos part is not the big worry, its the duplication of effort part. | 22:30 |
| lac | My father, who knows a lot about this at the Canadian health care level, and who has seen some terrible botches in the last 50 years | 22:31 |
| lac | (since he was a medical student) | 22:31 |
| lac | says that the important thing to find out is who needs to make the on-the-spot decisons. | 22:31 |
| lac | in his field, emergency medicine and anaethesia for same | 22:31 |
| lac | and ICUs | 22:32 |
| lac | the people are -- the doctor on the floor | 22:32 |
| lac | and the nurses who are monitoring the patients. | 22:32 |
| lac | And -- this is crucial -- the idea is not to build a system that makes it more likely they will make the best decisions. | 22:33 |
| lac | the idea is to build a system that makes it possible for them to make decisions quickly, and learn to improve their judgement. | 22:33 |
| lac | In canada they did an experiement, where the drs on the floor had their decisions okäed by 2 levels of higher ups. | 22:34 |
| lac | it failed badly. | 22:34 |
| lac | first of all, a lot of the time, you don't need the best decision. You need any decision, SOON! | 22:34 |
| lac | even the 40th best now is better than the best in 4 hours. | 22:34 |
| lac | secondly, you badly need for these drs to learn how to give the best decisions. If you take the power of judgement away from them | 22:35 |
| lac | they never learn how to do the job. they always rely on somebody else. | 22:35 |
| lac | eventually the somebody else | 22:35 |
| lac | 's retire, and the next generatoin is not up to the job. | 22:35 |
| lac | Sorry to preach (and my father's lecture, too. :-) ) | 22:36 |
| lac | Its hard to put risk-taking into a health care system. But that may be what is needed, in the appropriate amount. | 22:37 |
| dougn | hard? risk-taking analysis is the only part or US healthcare remaining ;-) | 23:13 |
| lac | dougn: I think, though I am hardly an expert, what the US healthcare organisations are doing is analysing potential patients for risk. | 23:16 |
| lac | what my father wants is for them to let young doctors take more risks. even if it might cost extra money. | 23:17 |
| lac | because that is how young, naiive doctors become old wise ones. | 23:17 |
| moreati | /msg zeth was the email entirely unencrypted. Or was there no payload when you decrypted it? | 23:25 |
| *** znapper has joined #europython | 23:31 | |
| *** lenscape has quit IRC | 23:31 | |
| dougn | lac: I understand... I was trying to make a joke... a dark, black, sad and all too accurate joke, but a joke none the less | 23:32 |
| *** znapper is now known as lenscape | 23:32 | |
| *** rwall has quit IRC | 23:34 | |
| lac | dougn: sorry, I have been accused of being humour-impaired before, as well. | 23:35 |
| *** znapper has joined #europython | 23:47 | |
| *** lenscape has quit IRC | 23:48 | |
| *** znapper is now known as lenscape | 23:49 | |
| *** znapper has joined #europython | 23:58 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 4.0.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!